WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.359
<v Speaker 1>For a plan to recognize the injustice of what had

2
00:00:02.359 --> 00:00:05.960
<v Speaker 1>happened to Bonnie was quite amazing, really, and this is

3
00:00:06.200 --> 00:00:08.720
<v Speaker 1>not going to start this. This diminutive woman with the

4
00:00:08.919 --> 00:00:12.359
<v Speaker 1>flaming red hair say you're singing by song, and he

5
00:00:12.519 --> 00:00:14.519
<v Speaker 1>was taken aback by it, and he did the right thing.

6
00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:17.559
<v Speaker 1>He helped her, he used his influence and he got

7
00:00:17.679 --> 00:00:20.519
<v Speaker 1>recognition for her that the song is actually all her

8
00:00:20.719 --> 00:00:21.519
<v Speaker 1>and nobody else.

9
00:00:22.320 --> 00:00:24.039
<v Speaker 2>We're totally booming rock and roll.

10
00:00:25.800 --> 00:00:28.000
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I'll leave you. You're reading Little Hands says

11
00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:30.879
<v Speaker 1>it's time to rock and roll, roll out.

12
00:00:31.399 --> 00:00:38.880
<v Speaker 2>I totally booked. Welcome back to Book Down Rock conversations

13
00:00:38.920 --> 00:00:43.439
<v Speaker 2>with authors, musicians and insiders revealing the stories behind classic

14
00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:47.399
<v Speaker 2>rock's greatest songs, albums and artists. And if you enjoy

15
00:00:47.479 --> 00:00:49.200
<v Speaker 2>the show you'd like to support it. You can sign

16
00:00:49.280 --> 00:00:52.320
<v Speaker 2>up for the Book down Rock Backstage Pass on Patreon

17
00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:54.880
<v Speaker 2>for just five dollars a month. You get every episode

18
00:00:54.920 --> 00:00:57.880
<v Speaker 2>commercial free for everyone else. Just use the link in

19
00:00:57.920 --> 00:01:01.560
<v Speaker 2>the show notes or visit bookd on Rock doc Now

20
00:01:01.560 --> 00:01:04.480
<v Speaker 2>onto our guest. A key figure in the folk music

21
00:01:04.519 --> 00:01:08.239
<v Speaker 2>boom of the late nineteen fifties, Canadian born singer songwriter

22
00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:11.599
<v Speaker 2>Bonnie Dobson wrote the folk classic Morning Do in nineteen

23
00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:15.560
<v Speaker 2>sixty one, but after another artist wrongly claimed co writing credit,

24
00:01:15.640 --> 00:01:18.680
<v Speaker 2>she spent decades fighting to reclaim the song that became

25
00:01:18.719 --> 00:01:21.599
<v Speaker 2>a standard for everyone from The Grateful Dead to Robert Plant.

26
00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:25.159
<v Speaker 2>Author John Aynerson joins me to discuss take Me for

27
00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:27.599
<v Speaker 2>a Walk in the Morning Dew, the remarkable story of

28
00:01:27.640 --> 00:01:31.519
<v Speaker 2>Dobson's career, her influence on folk music, and her long

29
00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:35.400
<v Speaker 2>battle for rightful recognition. John, Welcome to the podcast.

30
00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:37.200
<v Speaker 1>Thanks Eric, nice to be here.

31
00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:41.879
<v Speaker 2>The introduction opens with Bonnie's triumphant return alongside Robert Plant

32
00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:45.920
<v Speaker 2>in twenty thirteen, then works backward, making it feel almost

33
00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:49.079
<v Speaker 2>like the final scene of a film, a great movie,

34
00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:51.840
<v Speaker 2>before revealing how she got there. And a great moment

35
00:01:51.879 --> 00:01:55.239
<v Speaker 2>in the introduction is Plant admitting that he had no

36
00:01:55.359 --> 00:02:00.000
<v Speaker 2>idea Bonnie had actually written Morning Do until she literally

37
00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:03.640
<v Speaker 2>knocked on his door. Can you talk about this story? Yeah?

38
00:02:03.879 --> 00:02:07.680
<v Speaker 1>I just absolutely love that story, and Bonnie enjoys telling

39
00:02:07.719 --> 00:02:09.800
<v Speaker 1>it as well, because he lives She lives in Primrose

40
00:02:09.879 --> 00:02:12.439
<v Speaker 1>Hill in kind of a bit of North London, and

41
00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:15.319
<v Speaker 1>he has a house, he has many and he's spending

42
00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:17.080
<v Speaker 1>a lot of time in North America nowadays. But he

43
00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:18.960
<v Speaker 1>has a house, you know, just about two streets over

44
00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:24.639
<v Speaker 1>from her Primrose Hill, and yeah, he had in interviews

45
00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:27.759
<v Speaker 1>with him, he talked about how he was very much

46
00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:30.520
<v Speaker 1>aware of the song, you know, going back to going

47
00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:35.680
<v Speaker 1>back to the late sixties, and how John Bonham played

48
00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:39.319
<v Speaker 1>in a bandon that backed up Tim Rose, who's the

49
00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:41.919
<v Speaker 1>guy that we're going to be talking about, and how

50
00:02:41.960 --> 00:02:43.520
<v Speaker 1>much he loved the song and he said he did

51
00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:45.400
<v Speaker 1>it in other bands on his own as well, and

52
00:02:45.439 --> 00:02:48.240
<v Speaker 1>then he covered it on an album of covers and

53
00:02:48.719 --> 00:02:52.719
<v Speaker 1>I credited to tim Rose. And that's the crux of

54
00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:55.039
<v Speaker 1>really the whole story is how tim Rose was able

55
00:02:55.039 --> 00:02:58.080
<v Speaker 1>to get his name on the song and it went

56
00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:02.759
<v Speaker 1>from being Bonnie Dobson to Bonnie Dobson and tim Rose

57
00:03:03.159 --> 00:03:07.199
<v Speaker 1>to tim Rose, Bonnie Dobson to tim Rose period. And

58
00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:09.280
<v Speaker 1>so she kind of lost control of it that way,

59
00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:12.240
<v Speaker 1>and it was her battle to get it back. But

60
00:03:12.919 --> 00:03:15.840
<v Speaker 1>what's what's funny, and I didn't really play this out

61
00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:19.120
<v Speaker 1>in the book, is let Zeppelin have a terrible record

62
00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:23.000
<v Speaker 1>for stealing other people's music. You know, they said, I

63
00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:25.280
<v Speaker 1>always think of Babe, I'm going to leave you off.

64
00:03:25.319 --> 00:03:28.000
<v Speaker 1>The first led Zeppelin album, which was written by Ann

65
00:03:28.039 --> 00:03:31.800
<v Speaker 1>Breddon who was a folk singer. Joan Bayez recorded it

66
00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:34.400
<v Speaker 1>on a live album and that's where that's where Jimmy

67
00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:37.599
<v Speaker 1>Page learned the song, and it was credited to Ann Breddon.

68
00:03:38.039 --> 00:03:40.759
<v Speaker 1>But then a few years later let Zeppelin do it,

69
00:03:40.759 --> 00:03:43.319
<v Speaker 1>and there is credited to Jimmy Page and Robert Plant

70
00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:46.360
<v Speaker 1>and Anne Bretton had to fight for years to get

71
00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:49.719
<v Speaker 1>to get her name back on. And so what happens

72
00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:52.560
<v Speaker 1>is it now, says Anne Bredon, Jimmy Page and Robert Plant,

73
00:03:52.639 --> 00:03:54.120
<v Speaker 1>is if they were all sitting in a room together

74
00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:57.439
<v Speaker 1>writing the song, you know, and also stealing Willie Dixon

75
00:03:57.639 --> 00:04:00.719
<v Speaker 1>songs and Howling Wolf and that sort of thing. So

76
00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:04.280
<v Speaker 1>for for Plants to recognize the injustice of what had

77
00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:10.319
<v Speaker 1>happened to Bonnie was quite amazing, really, and it's not

78
00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:13.599
<v Speaker 1>going to store this. This diminutive woman with the flaming

79
00:04:13.719 --> 00:04:17.720
<v Speaker 1>bread hair at you say you're singing my song. And

80
00:04:17.920 --> 00:04:20.079
<v Speaker 1>he was taken aback by it, and he did the

81
00:04:20.120 --> 00:04:24.480
<v Speaker 1>right thing. He helped her, he used his influence and

82
00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:27.360
<v Speaker 1>he got recognition for her that the song is actually

83
00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:28.920
<v Speaker 1>all her and nobody else.

84
00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:32.360
<v Speaker 2>It's a great story and the title of the introduction

85
00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:35.000
<v Speaker 2>is thank you for helping me get my song back.

86
00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:40.120
<v Speaker 2>And that isn't really about so much royalties. It's about identity, right.

87
00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:42.839
<v Speaker 2>I mean, as you researched Bonnie's life, did you come

88
00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:47.079
<v Speaker 2>to feel that reclaiming authorship was ultimately more important emotionally

89
00:04:47.199 --> 00:04:48.839
<v Speaker 2>to her than it was financially.

90
00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:51.720
<v Speaker 1>Oh, that's exactly right. It was for her it was,

91
00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:54.600
<v Speaker 1>you know, this is my property. I wrote this, and

92
00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:56.839
<v Speaker 1>I just want to be recognized that I am the

93
00:04:56.839 --> 00:05:00.959
<v Speaker 1>writer of it. It wasn't financially motivated. But you also

94
00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:03.680
<v Speaker 1>have to keep in mind that that Tim Rose was

95
00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:07.199
<v Speaker 1>taking a percentage of the royalties on that song song credits,

96
00:05:07.639 --> 00:05:11.800
<v Speaker 1>so that that was important but always secondary Bonnie. Bonnie

97
00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:14.680
<v Speaker 1>lives comfortably. I mean she still gets wrowthies from morning

98
00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:17.079
<v Speaker 1>dew and other things that she has done. It was

99
00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:21.160
<v Speaker 1>recognition that this is my song and not anybody else's,

100
00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:25.639
<v Speaker 1>and that he had no right to put his name

101
00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:28.519
<v Speaker 1>on it and take credit for it. And it's the

102
00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:30.360
<v Speaker 1>credit for it that really is the crux.

103
00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:31.959
<v Speaker 2>Of it all for her. And she worked with you

104
00:05:32.040 --> 00:05:33.959
<v Speaker 2>to tell the story for the book. What was your

105
00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:37.720
<v Speaker 2>first conversation with Bonnie, Like, did she immediately embrace the

106
00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:40.279
<v Speaker 2>idea of telling her life story and the story of

107
00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:42.959
<v Speaker 2>the song. Where did it take time to earn her trust?

108
00:05:43.839 --> 00:05:47.040
<v Speaker 1>Well, there's a lot of history that goes into this book.

109
00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:49.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean I was first aware of Bonnie Dobson thinking

110
00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:53.920
<v Speaker 1>about sixty five, you know, and seeing her on television

111
00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:58.639
<v Speaker 1>performing with folk music in Canada, folk music songs, Oscar

112
00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:00.839
<v Speaker 1>Brand kind of shows and that sort of thing, and

113
00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:04.600
<v Speaker 1>hearing Morning Dew, which I think came out about sixty

114
00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:07.560
<v Speaker 1>three or so on her third album. But I was

115
00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:11.800
<v Speaker 1>aware of the story around it and aware of the

116
00:06:11.800 --> 00:06:16.279
<v Speaker 1>fact that it was a controversy involved. I mean, I

117
00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:20.360
<v Speaker 1>became more aware of the controversy when as a hard

118
00:06:20.439 --> 00:06:24.360
<v Speaker 1>rock guitar player in sixty eight playing in a band

119
00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:27.759
<v Speaker 1>that did the Jeff Beck Rod Stewart version of Morning

120
00:06:27.879 --> 00:06:31.560
<v Speaker 1>Dew off hit the Beck Truth album and it said

121
00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:34.439
<v Speaker 1>Tim Rose on it, and I knew it wasn't just

122
00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:39.439
<v Speaker 1>Tim Rose or it was Bonnie Dobson, and so that

123
00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:41.639
<v Speaker 1>the whole story of it kind of started for me

124
00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:44.319
<v Speaker 1>from there. And even though The Grateful Dead had recorded

125
00:06:44.360 --> 00:06:46.079
<v Speaker 1>it a year before, I didn't come to their album

126
00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:49.160
<v Speaker 1>until sixty eight, after the Jeff Beck group one and

127
00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:51.839
<v Speaker 1>there again you see tim Rose in there as well.

128
00:06:52.519 --> 00:06:55.000
<v Speaker 1>So I knew about her and I knew about her career.

129
00:06:55.920 --> 00:06:58.079
<v Speaker 1>But when I was writing a book on Ian and Sylvia,

130
00:06:58.120 --> 00:06:59.839
<v Speaker 1>who were very much a part of the folk boom

131
00:06:59.879 --> 00:07:02.000
<v Speaker 1>of the late fifties into the mid sixties and of

132
00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:06.160
<v Speaker 1>course four strong wins of like Canada's unofficial national anthem,

133
00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:09.399
<v Speaker 1>I interviewed Bonnie. I got a phone. I got a

134
00:07:09.399 --> 00:07:11.959
<v Speaker 1>phone number for her in England from a friend. I

135
00:07:11.959 --> 00:07:13.800
<v Speaker 1>called her, upset him doing the book in eaton Sylvia.

136
00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:16.120
<v Speaker 1>You were contemporary, you knew them back in the day.

137
00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:19.800
<v Speaker 1>And she was lovely to talk to, very open, very insightful,

138
00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:22.160
<v Speaker 1>and we kept in touch over the years. That was

139
00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:25.279
<v Speaker 1>about two thousand and nine, and every few years I'd

140
00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:28.120
<v Speaker 1>give her a call and say, hey, how about a book.

141
00:07:28.279 --> 00:07:31.360
<v Speaker 1>You know you have a story to tell, And I said,

142
00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:34.360
<v Speaker 1>morning do. It is a song that's never going away.

143
00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:36.199
<v Speaker 1>It's going to outlive you, it's going to outlive me.

144
00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:38.959
<v Speaker 1>People are still going to be covering it. But you

145
00:07:39.079 --> 00:07:42.199
<v Speaker 1>need to set the record straight on all of that

146
00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:45.480
<v Speaker 1>and talk about your life. And she was, I mean,

147
00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:47.480
<v Speaker 1>I didn't know at the time. When I would talk

148
00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:50.160
<v Speaker 1>with her, you know those in those intervening years that

149
00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:52.040
<v Speaker 1>she was I mean, her son took his own life,

150
00:07:52.519 --> 00:07:56.800
<v Speaker 1>her third husband died, and so she was dealing with

151
00:07:56.839 --> 00:08:01.199
<v Speaker 1>all of these things and you know, and issues raising

152
00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:04.759
<v Speaker 1>your children. So she kept saying, no, I'm not ready,

153
00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:08.040
<v Speaker 1>I'm not ready, but I I guess what are we?

154
00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:10.519
<v Speaker 1>Twenty twenty six, twenty twenty five. It was late twenty

155
00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:12.839
<v Speaker 1>twenty four, probably December. I think I gave her another

156
00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:17.079
<v Speaker 1>call and she was more open to it because she

157
00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:18.800
<v Speaker 1>had gone through all of this and she felt it

158
00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:22.160
<v Speaker 1>was kind of time. And it worked out well because

159
00:08:23.560 --> 00:08:25.680
<v Speaker 1>I made arrangements to go and spend a week with

160
00:08:25.720 --> 00:08:29.040
<v Speaker 1>her in London, and her album with the Hanging Stars

161
00:08:29.079 --> 00:08:31.920
<v Speaker 1>called Dreams had just come out and it was getting

162
00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:35.360
<v Speaker 1>tremendous attention. I mean, it didn't sell a lot because

163
00:08:35.399 --> 00:08:38.600
<v Speaker 1>it was a small label that didn't have distribution great distribution,

164
00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:43.240
<v Speaker 1>but it was really getting great reviews and articles on Bonnie.

165
00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:45.240
<v Speaker 1>So she was going through a bit of a career renaissance.

166
00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:48.879
<v Speaker 1>So it's kind of like the planets aligned and everything

167
00:08:48.919 --> 00:08:52.519
<v Speaker 1>came together and it was the time to do it.

168
00:08:51.879 --> 00:08:54.840
<v Speaker 1>And it was also important to her that the book

169
00:08:54.919 --> 00:08:58.399
<v Speaker 1>not be all about Morning dew because there's more to

170
00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:01.440
<v Speaker 1>her as a traditional folk artists and then as the

171
00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:04.759
<v Speaker 1>singer songwriter. I mean, she really developed into a very

172
00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:09.080
<v Speaker 1>gifted songwriter. But a lot of that stuff nobody knows about,

173
00:09:09.559 --> 00:09:14.399
<v Speaker 1>and it's it's a fascinating life. And whenever I'm doing books,

174
00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:18.919
<v Speaker 1>I'm looking for the human interest story in it and

175
00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:21.799
<v Speaker 1>the ups and downs that you know, in someone's life.

176
00:09:21.840 --> 00:09:24.200
<v Speaker 1>It's more than just a music story. I mean, that's

177
00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:26.200
<v Speaker 1>why I write. Yeah, I wrote a book about Arthur Lee,

178
00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:30.080
<v Speaker 1>and I wrote a book about Gene Clark because these

179
00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:33.559
<v Speaker 1>people have had fascinating lives, you know, Ian and Sylvia,

180
00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:37.120
<v Speaker 1>Randy Backman in there too, So that's what that's what

181
00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:39.720
<v Speaker 1>really drew me to want to tell tell her story.

182
00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:41.919
<v Speaker 1>And the timing was right, as they say, for her

183
00:09:42.080 --> 00:09:45.919
<v Speaker 1>to want to do it. And she was a little

184
00:09:46.519 --> 00:09:50.559
<v Speaker 1>trepidacious at first sitting down with me, and I'm you know,

185
00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:52.639
<v Speaker 1>I'm trying to take her through her life and asking

186
00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:56.399
<v Speaker 1>you know, pointed questions and insightful that sometimes deep questions,

187
00:09:56.440 --> 00:09:59.639
<v Speaker 1>of course, but she gradually warmed up to it. And

188
00:09:59.720 --> 00:10:01.600
<v Speaker 1>you know, after the four or five days that we

189
00:10:01.639 --> 00:10:07.039
<v Speaker 1>had spent in her kind of kitchen slash living room.

190
00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:09.240
<v Speaker 1>Going through this, she said at the end, you know,

191
00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:11.440
<v Speaker 1>this was a marvelous experience. Thank you so much for

192
00:10:11.480 --> 00:10:15.080
<v Speaker 1>doing this. It really brought a lot out of me

193
00:10:15.159 --> 00:10:18.559
<v Speaker 1>that I'd kept inside. But it also kind of rejuvenated

194
00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:22.000
<v Speaker 1>me too. So I mean it everything came out well,

195
00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:24.600
<v Speaker 1>The book came out well. Body is very happy with

196
00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:26.399
<v Speaker 1>the book. I'm very happy with the book, and I

197
00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:28.320
<v Speaker 1>think it tells more than just a music story. It's

198
00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:29.159
<v Speaker 1>a life story.

199
00:10:29.399 --> 00:10:32.360
<v Speaker 2>That Arthur Lee story. Boy, I love to talk to

200
00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:34.639
<v Speaker 2>you about that book. Yeah.

201
00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:37.600
<v Speaker 1>One of the one of the things about the Arthur

202
00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:40.720
<v Speaker 1>Lee book was I first he was passed away, of course,

203
00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:44.879
<v Speaker 1>and I approached his widow through a friend and she

204
00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:46.840
<v Speaker 1>was she she was kind of okay to do it,

205
00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:49.320
<v Speaker 1>she said, you know, it's time. But when we met

206
00:10:49.519 --> 00:10:54.080
<v Speaker 1>in California to do interviews with her and all the

207
00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:57.320
<v Speaker 1>other guys from Love and Other and other associates, she

208
00:10:57.360 --> 00:10:59.360
<v Speaker 1>said to me, you know, Arthur tried writing a memoir.

209
00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:01.960
<v Speaker 1>No one's there read it. So she posts this thing

210
00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:05.360
<v Speaker 1>out of a drawer and it's Arthur talking about his

211
00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:07.559
<v Speaker 1>life and his career in love and all of that.

212
00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:12.279
<v Speaker 1>The no one's ever seen. So it wasn't principle as

213
00:11:12.279 --> 00:11:14.440
<v Speaker 1>it was. I mean, Arthur kind of defamed a few

214
00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:18.720
<v Speaker 1>people in it. It allowed me as Arthur would. It

215
00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:20.679
<v Speaker 1>allowed me to have his voice in the book in

216
00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:23.879
<v Speaker 1>ways that I wasn't just picking old interviews. It allowed

217
00:11:23.879 --> 00:11:27.519
<v Speaker 1>me to every other interview was new, but this now

218
00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:30.159
<v Speaker 1>was new Arthur. And I think that's a real strength

219
00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:33.720
<v Speaker 1>in the book, is having Arthur's voice talking about things

220
00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:36.159
<v Speaker 1>in a way he never talked about them before in interviews.

221
00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:37.639
<v Speaker 2>And Robert planned a big fan.

222
00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:40.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely a bit.

223
00:11:40.440 --> 00:11:42.600
<v Speaker 2>The first time I've realized that was when they did

224
00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:46.360
<v Speaker 2>a tribute concert to Arthur Lee, like twenty years ago, right,

225
00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:48.480
<v Speaker 2>I think right after he passed or oh.

226
00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:50.480
<v Speaker 1>Right, Yeah, it was around the time that he was

227
00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:54.240
<v Speaker 1>sick and going to be passed for sick medical bills,

228
00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:57.360
<v Speaker 1>and Robert platt Ian Hunter and a number of other

229
00:11:57.480 --> 00:12:00.120
<v Speaker 1>artists flew over in their own dime rehearse band and

230
00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:02.559
<v Speaker 1>played the show and all the money went to the

231
00:12:02.639 --> 00:12:06.879
<v Speaker 1>Arthur to help defray his medical expense. He had no healthcare.

232
00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:08.960
<v Speaker 1>Musicians don't have health benefits.

233
00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:11.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, let people know where they can go to find

234
00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:13.720
<v Speaker 2>all of your books, but for this one, it includes

235
00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:17.399
<v Speaker 2>not only Bonnie's recollections, but perspectives from people like Robert

236
00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:20.440
<v Speaker 2>Plant and lifelong friends. How much detective work was involved

237
00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:24.120
<v Speaker 2>in tracking down those voices and was there any interview

238
00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:25.360
<v Speaker 2>that surprised you the most.

239
00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:29.360
<v Speaker 1>Well, I always like to paint a broader picture, you know,

240
00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:32.200
<v Speaker 1>cast a wider net and a broader story. It's kind

241
00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:35.519
<v Speaker 1>of like, I know how I feel about myself and

242
00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:38.600
<v Speaker 1>the things that I've done, but how do others? How

243
00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:40.879
<v Speaker 1>am I perceived by others and the things decisions that

244
00:12:40.919 --> 00:12:45.120
<v Speaker 1>I have made, And it really paints a broader picture,

245
00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:48.519
<v Speaker 1>a wider picture, more insightful picture of the subject, the

246
00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:50.879
<v Speaker 1>topic or whatever. So I would like to I always

247
00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:53.919
<v Speaker 1>like to do that in all of my books, and

248
00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:58.639
<v Speaker 1>it helps if you have the cooperation of the subject.

249
00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:02.440
<v Speaker 1>Of course, with Arthur Leave with dead and with Jean Clark,

250
00:13:02.440 --> 00:13:03.519
<v Speaker 1>he was dead too at the time.

251
00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:04.840
<v Speaker 2>He hasn't come back.

252
00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:10.480
<v Speaker 1>But Bonnie then had people so that she should see.

253
00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:14.240
<v Speaker 1>She suggested, I contact.

254
00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:17.559
<v Speaker 2>How many seashells by the seashell I know, don't get

255
00:13:17.559 --> 00:13:18.120
<v Speaker 2>me started.

256
00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:22.519
<v Speaker 1>So she had a list of people and they were

257
00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:26.080
<v Speaker 1>all very open to talking about Bonnie. She I mean,

258
00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:28.480
<v Speaker 1>she's got a million friends all over the world. So

259
00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:31.200
<v Speaker 1>that helped a bit, and you know, there are some

260
00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:33.879
<v Speaker 1>people you've got to chase after. But the other realization

261
00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:36.440
<v Speaker 1>is that Bonnie's eighty five. She started her career in

262
00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:41.360
<v Speaker 1>nineteen fifty nine. Many of her contemporaries, other than say

263
00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:44.879
<v Speaker 1>Bob Dylan, they passed away, so that made it a

264
00:13:44.919 --> 00:13:50.000
<v Speaker 1>little more difficult to do that. But again, if if

265
00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:53.360
<v Speaker 1>you approach people right and you tell them that this

266
00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:56.720
<v Speaker 1>is a this is a book that's really looking at

267
00:13:56.840 --> 00:14:00.559
<v Speaker 1>the life of this wonderful person that you the interview

268
00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:04.320
<v Speaker 1>person knew and knew well then that they were open

269
00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:09.120
<v Speaker 1>to talk about it. But you know, it's I really

270
00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:13.080
<v Speaker 1>wanted to talk to Bob Weird from The Grateful Dead.

271
00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:15.799
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I would love to have talk to Jerry Garcia.

272
00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:18.240
<v Speaker 1>I mean he's obviously been dead for a number of years,

273
00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:21.440
<v Speaker 1>but sadly Bob passed away before I got the chance

274
00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:23.639
<v Speaker 1>to do that, and we were kind of going through

275
00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:25.600
<v Speaker 1>various channels. I mean, it's not the kind of guy

276
00:14:25.639 --> 00:14:28.679
<v Speaker 1>that you say, hey, Bob, I want to talk about money.

277
00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:32.240
<v Speaker 1>You know, he has These guys at a certain level

278
00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:35.960
<v Speaker 1>of rock star fame have a lot of a lot

279
00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:38.320
<v Speaker 1>of walls around them. And and a lot of people

280
00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:40.879
<v Speaker 1>who filter all of this out. But I was. I

281
00:14:40.919 --> 00:14:43.480
<v Speaker 1>was getting closer to him, and we were about to

282
00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:46.759
<v Speaker 1>set something up through one of their emissaries when he

283
00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:51.559
<v Speaker 1>sadly passed away. But I was fortunate to get Dennis McNally,

284
00:14:51.960 --> 00:14:56.159
<v Speaker 1>who is the grateful dead archivist and writer of books,

285
00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:58.480
<v Speaker 1>and he, you know, he is involved very much in

286
00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:01.320
<v Speaker 1>all the archival albums come out and again, as they say,

287
00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:05.080
<v Speaker 1>the book, and he was wonderful. He had tremendous insights

288
00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:09.720
<v Speaker 1>about what Morning Dew meant to Jerry, he said, and

289
00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:12.879
<v Speaker 1>I have it in the book too from Dennis. There

290
00:15:12.919 --> 00:15:15.720
<v Speaker 1>was some kind of a tribute to Jerry being put on,

291
00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:17.480
<v Speaker 1>and I don't know if it was bands or just

292
00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:21.320
<v Speaker 1>playing music or whatever. Not long after Jerry died in

293
00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:24.840
<v Speaker 1>San Francisco and the organizers came to Dennis and said,

294
00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:27.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, what do we do for a closing song?

295
00:15:27.279 --> 00:15:30.600
<v Speaker 1>We don't know what to do, and Dennis said, don't

296
00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:34.519
<v Speaker 1>be silly. It's Morning Dew is Jerry's favorite song. And

297
00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:37.960
<v Speaker 1>so they closed with that, whether a game, whether someone

298
00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:42.240
<v Speaker 1>played it or whatever. But it would have loved to

299
00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:49.279
<v Speaker 1>gotten Jerry or Bob. But unfortunately things happened that way.

300
00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:52.200
<v Speaker 2>That's how I discovered the song, the Dead version Europe

301
00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:58.039
<v Speaker 2>seventy two, then heard the Beck version, which is phenomenal,

302
00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:00.879
<v Speaker 2>but there's some great versions.

303
00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:03.840
<v Speaker 1>Devoy well Bunnie doesn't like the divo.

304
00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:07.639
<v Speaker 2>Okay, it's quite interesting. I mean I didn't hear it

305
00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:11.360
<v Speaker 2>until just literally literally today, just going through a playlist

306
00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:14.720
<v Speaker 2>of all the different versions. But yeah, a lot of

307
00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:19.519
<v Speaker 2>different ones. One of the biggest surprises in the book

308
00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:23.039
<v Speaker 2>is her childhood, which she lived in government housing behind

309
00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:26.639
<v Speaker 2>a chain link fence. How important was it for you

310
00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:29.840
<v Speaker 2>to established that she wasn't simply a folk singer, but

311
00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:35.559
<v Speaker 2>somebody who had actually experienced poverty and social inequality firsthand.

312
00:16:36.039 --> 00:16:39.320
<v Speaker 1>Y That was actually a revelation to me too, because

313
00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:45.559
<v Speaker 1>various short form biographies of her over the decades have

314
00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:49.519
<v Speaker 1>placed her growing up in Scarborough. Scarborough in Toronto is

315
00:16:49.879 --> 00:16:52.360
<v Speaker 1>a I know, it's an England too, Scarborough and Toronto.

316
00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:57.080
<v Speaker 1>It's a nice suburb and it's nice homes and middle

317
00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:00.240
<v Speaker 1>class and all of that. And so I went in

318
00:17:00.279 --> 00:17:03.440
<v Speaker 1>with that, and she said, oh no, no, I was

319
00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:08.119
<v Speaker 1>born in an old army barracks just on the outskirts

320
00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:11.119
<v Speaker 1>of Toronto, surrounded by chain link fence. They were former

321
00:17:11.200 --> 00:17:14.799
<v Speaker 1>barrackses during the war where soldiers were you know, lived,

322
00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:18.240
<v Speaker 1>and they were mostly made of cardboard, and they were

323
00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:22.680
<v Speaker 1>bug infested, you know, sharing shower facilities and all of that.

324
00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:24.559
<v Speaker 1>That was a revelation to me because I didn't know

325
00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:27.880
<v Speaker 1>that she'd never talked about it before either, And I

326
00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:30.359
<v Speaker 1>think it did inform her in many ways, informed the

327
00:17:30.440 --> 00:17:33.519
<v Speaker 1>character that she is because she came to she came

328
00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:38.240
<v Speaker 1>to understand what poverty was really like, you know, and

329
00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:41.119
<v Speaker 1>what doing without was really like. And there's lots of

330
00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:45.319
<v Speaker 1>people who are very wealthy and they said, well, I'm

331
00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:47.400
<v Speaker 1>for the poor people. I understand that, but no, you

332
00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:52.039
<v Speaker 1>don't unless you lived. And she did live it, and

333
00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:54.720
<v Speaker 1>more importantly, she got out of it. She managed to

334
00:17:54.839 --> 00:18:00.160
<v Speaker 1>escape that poverty cycle that exists and a couple with

335
00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:03.279
<v Speaker 1>that too. Her parents were together in a part together,

336
00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:06.799
<v Speaker 1>a very dysfunctional family. Her mother was an alcoholic, her

337
00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:10.960
<v Speaker 1>father was an avowed communist. So it presented a lot

338
00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:14.319
<v Speaker 1>of problems that she overcame. I mean, she was class

339
00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:18.599
<v Speaker 1>valedictorian when she graduated school, and she got she couldn't

340
00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:22.119
<v Speaker 1>afford to pay for university, nor could her family, so

341
00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:24.519
<v Speaker 1>she got a scholarship to go to the University of Toronto,

342
00:18:24.519 --> 00:18:28.440
<v Speaker 1>and now she didn't stay after her first year. Serendipitously,

343
00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:31.000
<v Speaker 1>a music career, you know, sprung up in front of

344
00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:35.000
<v Speaker 1>her and she took it. But you know, one of

345
00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:36.920
<v Speaker 1>the questions I asked her, I think it's the answers

346
00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:39.640
<v Speaker 1>in the book. I said to her, you know, how

347
00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:42.920
<v Speaker 1>did it feel standing on the inside of that chain

348
00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:45.240
<v Speaker 1>link fence and looking out the broader world out there?

349
00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:47.480
<v Speaker 1>And she said, it was like we didn't belong there.

350
00:18:47.799 --> 00:18:49.359
<v Speaker 1>And when we take the bus home and the bus

351
00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:52.519
<v Speaker 1>would stop by the army barracks places in the chain

352
00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:54.599
<v Speaker 1>link fence and all that, the other people on the

353
00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:59.200
<v Speaker 1>bus judged us. We were poor, we were trash. And

354
00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:05.160
<v Speaker 1>that obviously had an impact upon her to improve her life,

355
00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:07.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, and and good for her that she did.

356
00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:11.400
<v Speaker 2>And her father introduced her to protest music Pete Seeger

357
00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:16.160
<v Speaker 2>Paul Robeson. She ultimately developed her own worldview rather than

358
00:19:16.200 --> 00:19:20.000
<v Speaker 2>simply adopting his. How did you see the tension between

359
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:23.720
<v Speaker 2>influence and independence that shape her as both an artist

360
00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:24.279
<v Speaker 2>and a person.

361
00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:28.480
<v Speaker 1>She's she's very, very stubborn. She is ther own person.

362
00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:30.440
<v Speaker 1>She makes up her own mind about everything, and her

363
00:19:30.519 --> 00:19:36.319
<v Speaker 1>dad was Her dad was smart enough to say to her,

364
00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:38.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, you don't have to be a communist, you

365
00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:40.680
<v Speaker 1>don't have to be religious, you don't have to be this,

366
00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:42.319
<v Speaker 1>you don't have to be that. Just choose what you

367
00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:46.079
<v Speaker 1>want to be. And she grew up around communism and

368
00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:50.759
<v Speaker 1>he believed strongly in it and was devastated years later.

369
00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:52.680
<v Speaker 1>I guess, you know, when when we started to learn

370
00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:55.839
<v Speaker 1>the real you know, the reality of communist Russia and

371
00:19:55.839 --> 00:19:59.160
<v Speaker 1>communist China, and was quite devastated by that because he

372
00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:01.920
<v Speaker 1>grew up to bel it was like it was utopia's idea,

373
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:06.559
<v Speaker 1>that was Paradiser's perfection. And she questioned all those things.

374
00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:09.839
<v Speaker 1>And she credits one of her elementary school teachers who said,

375
00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:14.279
<v Speaker 1>don't accept everything, question it, ask go to the sources,

376
00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:17.599
<v Speaker 1>find out what this is all about. But what's fascinating

377
00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:19.759
<v Speaker 1>too is when she went to get an American green card,

378
00:20:20.359 --> 00:20:23.839
<v Speaker 1>they had a dossier on her dad and obviously from

379
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:27.799
<v Speaker 1>the RCMP, and so the Americans had information about her

380
00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:30.519
<v Speaker 1>dad and they and they had information about her being

381
00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:34.960
<v Speaker 1>with her dad at rallies and things, and she had

382
00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:41.240
<v Speaker 1>to really explain herself to American authorities in order to

383
00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:43.599
<v Speaker 1>get that green card, and having that green card was

384
00:20:43.640 --> 00:20:45.640
<v Speaker 1>so important to her she never wanted to lose it

385
00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:47.720
<v Speaker 1>because she'd never have a chance to have a career

386
00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:51.559
<v Speaker 1>with without it. But she's what fast fascinating. Was scared

387
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:55.400
<v Speaker 1>her was just that the RCPP had been following her

388
00:20:55.519 --> 00:21:00.200
<v Speaker 1>dad for years and her and her sister probably too,

389
00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:03.200
<v Speaker 1>because her sister was involved even more so in communism

390
00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:07.799
<v Speaker 1>and rallies and all that sort of thing. But she

391
00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:11.240
<v Speaker 1>developed her own perspective on life, and that's that's the

392
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:15.039
<v Speaker 1>way she is. She's she's very she's extremely well read.

393
00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:21.680
<v Speaker 1>She's a news junkie, and she reads and watches and

394
00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:25.839
<v Speaker 1>takes everything in and then forms her own opinions on everything.

395
00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:29.200
<v Speaker 2>She could have been a journalist, she could have she

396
00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:32.680
<v Speaker 2>could have been as investigative. Mind.

397
00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:35.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you have also been in prison for being a communist.

398
00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:40.799
<v Speaker 2>One of the things that's interesting about her story too

399
00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:43.240
<v Speaker 2>is maybe the younger people that are watching this or

400
00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:45.519
<v Speaker 2>listening right now, they may not know about this, but

401
00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:48.480
<v Speaker 2>in the early folk revival, writing your own songs was

402
00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:51.640
<v Speaker 2>almost frowned upon. You know, folk artists are expected to

403
00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:56.119
<v Speaker 2>preserve tradition, not add to it. How difficult is it

404
00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:58.839
<v Speaker 2>for young readers to appreciate just how revolutionary somebody like

405
00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:01.799
<v Speaker 2>Bob Dylan and eventually Bonnie herself really were.

406
00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:04.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and you're right, You're correct with the word revolutionary,

407
00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:08.200
<v Speaker 1>because folk music was. It started out as music of

408
00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:10.359
<v Speaker 1>the people, because that's kind of a broader definition of

409
00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:14.039
<v Speaker 1>folk music. But it was based on traditional music and

410
00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:17.119
<v Speaker 1>music that told stories from the past, from history, and

411
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:21.799
<v Speaker 1>you know, it was education, educational and it also inculcated

412
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:26.720
<v Speaker 1>some some some of the ideals and ideals of you know,

413
00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:29.079
<v Speaker 1>the way things used to be in society and all

414
00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:34.119
<v Speaker 1>of that. But you, yeah, you didn't write, you you

415
00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:36.920
<v Speaker 1>research folk music. You dug it up. And even Bonnie

416
00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:39.599
<v Speaker 1>went to Ottawa to study at the National Archives to

417
00:22:39.640 --> 00:22:42.160
<v Speaker 1>find all these old songs that had been there and

418
00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:44.880
<v Speaker 1>and song books that were passed around. She even got

419
00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:47.920
<v Speaker 1>the People's Song Book, which was you know, kind of

420
00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:51.480
<v Speaker 1>marching and rallying songs and union songs and all of that.

421
00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:55.799
<v Speaker 1>And that's how she started her career. And as you say,

422
00:22:55.839 --> 00:22:58.559
<v Speaker 1>nobody was writing songs then, or at least not not

423
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:01.519
<v Speaker 1>in any kind of a a big way. I mean,

424
00:23:01.559 --> 00:23:03.839
<v Speaker 1>she wrote a song called Ben's Lullaby I think on

425
00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:05.880
<v Speaker 1>her second album it was just it was a little,

426
00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:08.759
<v Speaker 1>sweet little song for a little boy who was the

427
00:23:08.839 --> 00:23:11.759
<v Speaker 1>child of a friend of hers. But she was not

428
00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:15.119
<v Speaker 1>immune to what was happening in the world. And she

429
00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:17.640
<v Speaker 1>was very much influenced by the movie On the Beach,

430
00:23:18.319 --> 00:23:20.400
<v Speaker 1>And that's a movie I think from fifty nine or

431
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:23.400
<v Speaker 1>fifty eight, and it's about, you know, what is the

432
00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:28.799
<v Speaker 1>world like after a nuclear holocaust? How do people deal

433
00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:31.839
<v Speaker 1>with it? And you know, the key scene in the

434
00:23:31.880 --> 00:23:35.519
<v Speaker 1>movie is a husband and wife and they're about to

435
00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:37.480
<v Speaker 1>have a baby, and it's like, well, do we want

436
00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:39.799
<v Speaker 1>to raise the baby in this environment? What do we do?

437
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:43.599
<v Speaker 1>And all of this impacted on her, and you know,

438
00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:48.799
<v Speaker 1>again a woman who didn't grow who had been following

439
00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:53.160
<v Speaker 1>a career of traditional music, ended up writing a song

440
00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:57.640
<v Speaker 1>that really brought together all of the themes of her

441
00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:00.960
<v Speaker 1>life to that point, whether it's a about government, whether

442
00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:03.400
<v Speaker 1>it's about society, whether it's about war, and the whole

443
00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:05.920
<v Speaker 1>band the bomb thing was happening at that time too,

444
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:09.240
<v Speaker 1>and just the idea of you know, what is the

445
00:24:09.319 --> 00:24:13.440
<v Speaker 1>nuclear winter going to be like? So out of that

446
00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:17.240
<v Speaker 1>one night, out of a discussion with it with a

447
00:24:17.319 --> 00:24:20.440
<v Speaker 1>number of other folkies. When she was in La playing

448
00:24:20.440 --> 00:24:25.400
<v Speaker 1>at the Golden Bearer. The ash grob that all of

449
00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:27.000
<v Speaker 1>this came to a head when she went back to

450
00:24:27.160 --> 00:24:32.240
<v Speaker 1>her where she was staying and wrote the song, and

451
00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:36.160
<v Speaker 1>being a game, being someone who grew up with folk

452
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:38.720
<v Speaker 1>music that was traditional and not written, she phoned up

453
00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:41.559
<v Speaker 1>a friend and said, I've written a song, you know,

454
00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:44.880
<v Speaker 1>like like puzzlingly. I can't believe it, and she said,

455
00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:46.480
<v Speaker 1>do you want to hear it? And so she sang

456
00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:49.559
<v Speaker 1>it over to the phone to her friend Janie and

457
00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:51.319
<v Speaker 1>said to Jennie, well, what do I do with it?

458
00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:54.119
<v Speaker 1>And she said, oh, you're going to have to record it.

459
00:24:54.160 --> 00:24:57.680
<v Speaker 1>The song is great. But she went back. She recorded

460
00:24:57.680 --> 00:24:59.440
<v Speaker 1>that song, of course, and it showed up. She played it,

461
00:24:59.480 --> 00:25:01.799
<v Speaker 1>you know, from sixty one on in her live shows.

462
00:25:02.200 --> 00:25:04.920
<v Speaker 1>It was published in Broadside magazine, which was a mistake

463
00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:08.440
<v Speaker 1>on her part, and it was recorded on her third album.

464
00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:14.039
<v Speaker 1>But she continued the traditional folk route of traditional folk music.

465
00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:17.559
<v Speaker 1>She always would record at least one or two French

466
00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:21.279
<v Speaker 1>Canadian songs under albums, and the folk songs that she

467
00:25:21.799 --> 00:25:27.000
<v Speaker 1>researched and performed and recorded were songs that nobody else

468
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:29.599
<v Speaker 1>really knew about and that's what made her interesting. It

469
00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:32.680
<v Speaker 1>was her choice of material, and she would arrange the

470
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:35.240
<v Speaker 1>songs herself too, so it's not like it was a

471
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:38.200
<v Speaker 1>revelation for her, Oh I'm now going to be a songwriter.

472
00:25:39.079 --> 00:25:42.240
<v Speaker 1>Because even then, like you say, no one was writing songs.

473
00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:45.799
<v Speaker 1>I mean, Dylan changed the game for everybody. Woody Guthrie

474
00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:49.000
<v Speaker 1>could write songs, Pete Sieger could write folk songs because

475
00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:55.319
<v Speaker 1>they had gravitus and they had history. But you, the

476
00:25:55.400 --> 00:25:58.400
<v Speaker 1>folky playing at the bitter End this week on the

477
00:25:58.440 --> 00:26:01.519
<v Speaker 1>acoustic guitar did not have the right the right write

478
00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:05.359
<v Speaker 1>r I A. G HD to write r I T. E. W.

479
00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:11.640
<v Speaker 1>Wright to write folk music. And again when Dylan started that,

480
00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:15.160
<v Speaker 1>I mean that it took some convincing for people to

481
00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:19.440
<v Speaker 1>accept that because you had the traditionalists versus this this

482
00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:24.720
<v Speaker 1>new folk artist writing his own material. And once Bob

483
00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:29.599
<v Speaker 1>Dylan gained acceptance, I mean even even take his first album,

484
00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:31.119
<v Speaker 1>Bob Dylan wrote two songs on that album.

485
00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:33.680
<v Speaker 2>The other song, yeah, yeah, that A lot of people say.

486
00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:34.880
<v Speaker 2>The second album is really his.

487
00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:38.440
<v Speaker 1>First it's absolutely for him. For a number of reasons.

488
00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:41.160
<v Speaker 1>He met Susie Rotelo, who's the girl on the front

489
00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:43.640
<v Speaker 1>cover of the picture and she became as mused. She

490
00:26:43.720 --> 00:26:47.119
<v Speaker 1>got him reading books, she got him reading newspapers. I

491
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.799
<v Speaker 1>was fortunate to interview her before she shortly before she died,

492
00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:51.279
<v Speaker 1>for the Ian and Sylvia book, and she was an

493
00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:54.880
<v Speaker 1>absolute delight. But she said Bob didn't have any social

494
00:26:54.880 --> 00:27:00.000
<v Speaker 1>conscience or awareness. But once he started reading the news

495
00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:04.079
<v Speaker 1>papers and reading books and educating himself, that's where the

496
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:06.279
<v Speaker 1>Bob Dylan we know, blowing in the wind, the times

497
00:27:06.279 --> 00:27:08.519
<v Speaker 1>they are changing, all your masters of war, all of

498
00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:14.559
<v Speaker 1>that came out and the trajectory of original folk music

499
00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:15.640
<v Speaker 1>just went up.

500
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:20.799
<v Speaker 2>Bonnie had some memories of Bob Dylan. She's got some

501
00:27:20.839 --> 00:27:26.160
<v Speaker 2>great stories in there. One is where where he's typing

502
00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:29.960
<v Speaker 2>what may have become boots of Spanish leather. He would

503
00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:33.240
<v Speaker 2>tag along and go to an alehouse, pulled out his guitar.

504
00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:35.640
<v Speaker 2>Bartender tells him you can stay, but the guitar has

505
00:27:35.680 --> 00:27:38.160
<v Speaker 2>to go. And he's an unknown, you know, so that

506
00:27:38.200 --> 00:27:41.039
<v Speaker 2>they don't know who he's about to become. But also

507
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:46.599
<v Speaker 2>she remembered a different Dylan from what was depicted, particularly

508
00:27:46.599 --> 00:27:48.799
<v Speaker 2>in the recent film, Like he was more he was

509
00:27:48.839 --> 00:27:51.160
<v Speaker 2>almost like a stand up comic on stage back in

510
00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:51.839
<v Speaker 2>those days.

511
00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:54.359
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he had apparently a lot more personality. I mean,

512
00:27:54.440 --> 00:27:56.160
<v Speaker 1>it's too bad we don't have any of the live

513
00:27:56.279 --> 00:27:58.559
<v Speaker 1>performance as a recorded of him. She said he was

514
00:27:58.599 --> 00:28:02.480
<v Speaker 1>more fun and he was more on off stage too. Again,

515
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:05.279
<v Speaker 1>he was just like everybody else then. He was just

516
00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:07.960
<v Speaker 1>a guy who loved folk music. Who was you know,

517
00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:12.160
<v Speaker 1>we're scrambling to get gigs like everybody else was. And

518
00:28:12.680 --> 00:28:16.319
<v Speaker 1>he found he found his voice as you and I

519
00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:19.200
<v Speaker 1>both second album. But the story about him in the

520
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:22.720
<v Speaker 1>restaurant and the guy saying you can stay, but you

521
00:28:22.799 --> 00:28:24.759
<v Speaker 1>can stay with the guitar has to go. I mean

522
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:28.319
<v Speaker 1>we were sitting around we've been done an interview and

523
00:28:28.359 --> 00:28:31.920
<v Speaker 1>Bonnie said, talked about something. Well, I remember the time

524
00:28:32.039 --> 00:28:34.160
<v Speaker 1>we were and she just told the story matter of fact,

525
00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:38.599
<v Speaker 1>and I said, money, that's gold. He also complimented her

526
00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:41.720
<v Speaker 1>on morning Do in passing.

527
00:28:41.799 --> 00:28:44.480
<v Speaker 2>The lyrics are walked me out the morning dew, my honey,

528
00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:47.240
<v Speaker 2>walked me out in the morning dew. Today I can't

529
00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:50.000
<v Speaker 2>walk you out in the morning do my honey. Also

530
00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:54.799
<v Speaker 2>talks about hearing a baby cry. I heard a young

531
00:28:54.839 --> 00:28:58.200
<v Speaker 2>man mourn this morning. So it's somebody that's waking up

532
00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:04.839
<v Speaker 2>in the morning after a nuclear bomb devastation.

533
00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:10.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, nuclear bomb. And it's it's a dialogue, yes, you know,

534
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:14.160
<v Speaker 1>I assume it's the woman talking first and then the

535
00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:16.000
<v Speaker 1>man replies, I can't take you out in the morning.

536
00:29:16.039 --> 00:29:19.880
<v Speaker 1>Do your babies cry? It's it's a dialogue between the

537
00:29:19.960 --> 00:29:24.119
<v Speaker 1>two the couple in the movie. That I mean, she

538
00:29:24.200 --> 00:29:26.680
<v Speaker 1>invented that. Of burse, that dialogue didn't exist in the movie,

539
00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:29.920
<v Speaker 1>but she took the context of it and wrote it

540
00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:33.680
<v Speaker 1>in that way of discussing, well, what do we do?

541
00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:34.119
<v Speaker 1>We can't?

542
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:37.799
<v Speaker 2>You know, everything's changed. There is no morning anymore, right

543
00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:39.920
<v Speaker 2>because they want to They want to go on as

544
00:29:39.960 --> 00:29:43.599
<v Speaker 2>if life is normal, but it's not anymore. Now. It

545
00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:47.920
<v Speaker 2>ends with I guess it doesn't really matter anyway. So

546
00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:49.880
<v Speaker 2>what do you make of the ending there?

547
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:52.400
<v Speaker 1>It's very fatalistic. I mean, there is no world left.

548
00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:54.240
<v Speaker 1>We're never going to have We're never going to have

549
00:29:54.559 --> 00:29:59.200
<v Speaker 1>the life we had before, So what does it matter now? What?

550
00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:02.640
<v Speaker 1>It's kind of like saying what future do we have now?

551
00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:08.599
<v Speaker 1>Anti nuclear war songs didn't really exist in sixty one

552
00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:13.480
<v Speaker 1>when Bonnie wrote it. Uh. Protest folk music was really

553
00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:17.960
<v Speaker 1>drawn around the civil rights movement and the Vietnam War thing.

554
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:22.119
<v Speaker 1>Wasn't on anybody's radar yet at the time, So Bonnie

555
00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:25.599
<v Speaker 1>was taking a topic that not many other folk singers

556
00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:27.880
<v Speaker 1>had had addressed in any way at all. That kind

557
00:30:27.880 --> 00:30:31.519
<v Speaker 1>of separated her from from everybody else. It is definitely

558
00:30:31.559 --> 00:30:34.200
<v Speaker 1>a protest song, for sure, without a doubt. But it's

559
00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:40.240
<v Speaker 1>it's protest. Its protest is on a theme that remains.

560
00:30:40.599 --> 00:30:44.559
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's it still resonates today. You know why

561
00:30:44.599 --> 00:30:48.759
<v Speaker 1>why the United States in Iran it, you know, ostensibly

562
00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:52.559
<v Speaker 1>to end their ability to make nuclear bombs and blow

563
00:30:52.599 --> 00:30:56.480
<v Speaker 1>everybody on Earth up. So the song has remained timely,

564
00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:02.279
<v Speaker 1>you know above some above Dyllan songs aren't as timely anymore.

565
00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:04.119
<v Speaker 1>I think the times they are changing and blowing in

566
00:31:04.119 --> 00:31:08.200
<v Speaker 1>the wind have stood the test of time, but many

567
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:10.160
<v Speaker 1>of the others have not. And you take a song

568
00:31:10.279 --> 00:31:12.880
<v Speaker 1>like the Buffalo Springfield for what it's worth. You know,

569
00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:16.880
<v Speaker 1>there's something happening here stapay, what's that sound? That's a

570
00:31:16.920 --> 00:31:20.279
<v Speaker 1>song that's tied to the nineteen sixties. And it's not

571
00:31:20.359 --> 00:31:22.039
<v Speaker 1>a song you I mean, if you hear it, it's

572
00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:25.200
<v Speaker 1>it's intended whether it's a movie or a documentary on radio,

573
00:31:25.319 --> 00:31:27.559
<v Speaker 1>it's intended to harken back to a period of particularly

574
00:31:27.559 --> 00:31:30.400
<v Speaker 1>a period of time of protests and anti Vietnam war

575
00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:32.640
<v Speaker 1>and student protests and riots and that sort of thing.

576
00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:37.759
<v Speaker 1>So it's hardwired to a period of time. Morning Dew isn't.

577
00:31:38.200 --> 00:31:44.720
<v Speaker 1>Morning Dew has been able to remain important, significant, relevant

578
00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:49.680
<v Speaker 1>ever since, and that in many ways is very sad that,

579
00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:52.680
<v Speaker 1>but the truth is still there that we still live

580
00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:53.599
<v Speaker 1>in fear of all of this.

581
00:31:54.039 --> 00:31:55.519
<v Speaker 2>What is it about the song that makes it so

582
00:31:55.640 --> 00:31:57.039
<v Speaker 2>endlessly reinterpreted?

583
00:31:57.119 --> 00:31:57.240
<v Speaker 1>Too?

584
00:31:57.319 --> 00:32:01.240
<v Speaker 2>Because you have versions by the dead Jeff Beck, Nazareth

585
00:32:01.799 --> 00:32:04.960
<v Speaker 2>and Devo as we mentioned, all found something different in it.

586
00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:08.039
<v Speaker 2>What is it about the songwriting that makes it so

587
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:09.640
<v Speaker 2>endlessly reinterpret it?

588
00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:13.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's the nature of the song in that the

589
00:32:13.519 --> 00:32:17.559
<v Speaker 1>lyrics appeal. I mean, the lyrics and the theme generally

590
00:32:17.599 --> 00:32:19.680
<v Speaker 1>have remained. I mean, we can talk about how tim

591
00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:24.240
<v Speaker 1>Rose changed the one line in it, but the message remains.

592
00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:27.920
<v Speaker 1>The message resonates, but it's so much so open to

593
00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:31.119
<v Speaker 1>interpretation because it's a very simple folk song. It's just

594
00:32:31.160 --> 00:32:36.200
<v Speaker 1>Bonnie on guitar and she's just fingerpicking chords. But the

595
00:32:36.200 --> 00:32:41.119
<v Speaker 1>message is strong. So the message appeals to artists. But

596
00:32:41.400 --> 00:32:44.160
<v Speaker 1>the arrangement that she has allows them to be able

597
00:32:44.200 --> 00:32:48.319
<v Speaker 1>to arrange the song and the music the way they

598
00:32:48.359 --> 00:32:50.160
<v Speaker 1>see it, the way they want it, the way they

599
00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:54.799
<v Speaker 1>envision it. And of the almost ninety different cover versions

600
00:32:54.839 --> 00:32:59.880
<v Speaker 1>of that song, they're so different everyone. I mean, Nazareth,

601
00:32:59.880 --> 00:33:02.480
<v Speaker 1>I like their version. I also like their German version.

602
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:05.279
<v Speaker 1>I don't speak German. That it's you know, to do

603
00:33:05.319 --> 00:33:09.680
<v Speaker 1>that kind of thing. But when you look at the

604
00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:20.079
<v Speaker 1>breadth of all these cover versions, the interpretations all change,

605
00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:23.440
<v Speaker 1>but really only one of them goes back to the original,

606
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:27.440
<v Speaker 1>and that Serena Ryder. She went back to the original

607
00:33:27.799 --> 00:33:30.880
<v Speaker 1>opening lyric take Me for a Walk in the morning do.

608
00:33:31.880 --> 00:33:34.960
<v Speaker 1>Everybody else And even going back to The Grateful Dead

609
00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:37.559
<v Speaker 1>has it as walk me out in the Morning do.

610
00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:40.160
<v Speaker 1>And that goes back to Fred Neil in sixty four,

611
00:33:40.720 --> 00:33:42.640
<v Speaker 1>and he was one of the first to cover the

612
00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:46.200
<v Speaker 1>song and he felt that take Me for a Walk

613
00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:50.480
<v Speaker 1>in the Morning dew was was too wordy and he felt,

614
00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:54.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, to get you know, kind of the lilts

615
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:55.880
<v Speaker 1>and flow of the song, walk Me out in the

616
00:33:55.920 --> 00:34:00.720
<v Speaker 1>Morning do fit better. And every cover since then, Devo,

617
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:04.359
<v Speaker 1>there's a heavy metal version from France somewhere, and all

618
00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:08.519
<v Speaker 1>these different versions all use that. What that says is

619
00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:13.519
<v Speaker 1>all these artists heard the song from probably The Grateful Dead,

620
00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:18.440
<v Speaker 1>possibly Jeff Beck, and probably Tim Rose. They didn't hear

621
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:21.400
<v Speaker 1>Bonnie's version. They don't know Bonnie's version, they just know

622
00:34:21.480 --> 00:34:24.400
<v Speaker 1>the cover versions. I mean, that doesn't take away that

623
00:34:24.440 --> 00:34:27.239
<v Speaker 1>she wrote the song. She still wrote the song, okay,

624
00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:32.199
<v Speaker 1>but it shows that The Grateful Dead and I'm gonna

625
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:35.480
<v Speaker 1>say Tim Rose, they're the ones that really spread that song,

626
00:34:36.679 --> 00:34:39.679
<v Speaker 1>even that even that four note introu that that first

627
00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:42.920
<v Speaker 1>appeared on the tim Rose version. I mean, you hear

628
00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:46.840
<v Speaker 1>it everywhere. Almost every one of those cover versions that

629
00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:49.559
<v Speaker 1>you mentioned you were kind of trolling through, they all

630
00:34:49.559 --> 00:34:56.960
<v Speaker 1>have that that dumbu which body never invented. I interviewed

631
00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:59.880
<v Speaker 1>David Robinson, who produced it for tim Rose, and he said, oh,

632
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:02.400
<v Speaker 1>his mine, I came up with that idea of those

633
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:06.920
<v Speaker 1>four notes. Okay, yeah, that's I'm sure Jim Rose would

634
00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:10.079
<v Speaker 1>say he did it, but that's that's universal.

635
00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:12.719
<v Speaker 2>There's one I heard of by Lulu, which I thought

636
00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:14.559
<v Speaker 2>was great and I never heard it before. It's got

637
00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:18.480
<v Speaker 2>xylophone on there, he's got marimba's it's got a horn

638
00:35:18.599 --> 00:35:23.199
<v Speaker 2>section or is it xylophone? That I'm hearing no remembers

639
00:35:23.320 --> 00:35:24.719
<v Speaker 2>the Lulu.

640
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:29.159
<v Speaker 1>Okay, it's bizarre, It's really bizarre. And you know what

641
00:35:29.199 --> 00:35:31.400
<v Speaker 1>a hand in that arrangement was John Paul Jones.

642
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:34.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh really is that when he was a studio musician.

643
00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:35.719
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he was.

644
00:35:35.800 --> 00:35:40.480
<v Speaker 2>He arranged Lulo's records. What year would this be, sixty seven?

645
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:43.800
<v Speaker 2>It's sixty seven. Wow. Why do you think the Dead

646
00:35:43.880 --> 00:35:47.400
<v Speaker 2>version has become the definitive one? Is just something about

647
00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:50.119
<v Speaker 2>Jerry's interpretation.

648
00:35:49.679 --> 00:35:52.239
<v Speaker 1>Of it, Yeah, I think so. But also the fact

649
00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:54.920
<v Speaker 1>too that there were Dead fans all over the world, sure,

650
00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:59.400
<v Speaker 1>you know, everywhere, and they would have picked up on

651
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:01.719
<v Speaker 1>that song from the first album. But as you say,

652
00:36:01.719 --> 00:36:03.639
<v Speaker 1>you got it off of the live album seventy two.

653
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:07.679
<v Speaker 1>The Dead recorded that song either live or in a

654
00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:12.719
<v Speaker 1>studio four times, so it's never gone away. So you

655
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:15.480
<v Speaker 1>can have young people picking up on the Dead now

656
00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:20.159
<v Speaker 1>from some live albums from even the seventies or eighties,

657
00:36:20.679 --> 00:36:23.920
<v Speaker 1>where they'll hear Morning Do and that's that way. So

658
00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:29.079
<v Speaker 1>they have and Bonnie very much acknowledges just this too.

659
00:36:29.559 --> 00:36:36.840
<v Speaker 1>They have allowed the song to continue to be heard

660
00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:42.559
<v Speaker 1>generation after generation, whereas not Bonnie's version has that Bonnie's

661
00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:46.960
<v Speaker 1>version hasn't gone as widespread. But the Dead took that

662
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:50.800
<v Speaker 1>song and made it, I guess popularized it, made it

663
00:36:50.840 --> 00:36:55.920
<v Speaker 1>more relevant. And you know, again because of their their

664
00:36:57.440 --> 00:36:59.199
<v Speaker 1>spread of influence all over.

665
00:37:00.039 --> 00:37:00.639
<v Speaker 2>Thankful for that.

666
00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:04.280
<v Speaker 1>No, she's very o. She credits a Grateful Dead absolutely

667
00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:07.519
<v Speaker 1>for what they did to to bring that song to

668
00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:11.360
<v Speaker 1>a much wider world and keep it, keep it resonating

669
00:37:11.519 --> 00:37:14.880
<v Speaker 1>and relevant or absolutely, and she likes that. She went

670
00:37:14.920 --> 00:37:17.639
<v Speaker 1>to see the Grateful Dead when she was living in Toronto.

671
00:37:17.719 --> 00:37:20.639
<v Speaker 1>Back in Toronto in around sixty seven or so, they

672
00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:23.920
<v Speaker 1>came and played, but that night they didn't play Morning Dew,

673
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:30.000
<v Speaker 1>but she did Tom Constant Constantine I think his name is.

674
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:32.639
<v Speaker 1>He played keyboards. It was a second keyboard player at a

675
00:37:32.679 --> 00:37:36.039
<v Speaker 1>pig pen in the Grateful Dead and in the mid

676
00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:40.760
<v Speaker 1>to late sixties, and he played live, did that song

677
00:37:40.840 --> 00:37:44.800
<v Speaker 1>live with them, you know, a gazillion times. But a

678
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:47.760
<v Speaker 1>few years ago we put together I had a Dead

679
00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:52.920
<v Speaker 1>kind of a tribute band, and Slick Aguilera from Jefferson

680
00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:54.960
<v Speaker 1>Starship and a few others are all in this band

681
00:37:55.280 --> 00:37:57.239
<v Speaker 1>and they came and played in I think it was

682
00:37:57.280 --> 00:38:00.559
<v Speaker 1>called the Other Dead or whatever they called them, and

683
00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:02.440
<v Speaker 1>they came and played in London at a club and

684
00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:05.400
<v Speaker 1>Bonnie went and they got her up to sing it, no.

685
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:08.519
<v Speaker 2>Rehearsal, It's great, just do it.

686
00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:11.280
<v Speaker 1>And Okay, there's another guy who I wanted to get

687
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:13.039
<v Speaker 1>ahold of, but he's very very sick and I'm not

688
00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:15.360
<v Speaker 1>sure how well he is now, but he was very

689
00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:17.840
<v Speaker 1>very sick at the time. You know, you have to

690
00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:19.519
<v Speaker 1>when you're doing this books, you have to live with

691
00:38:19.559 --> 00:38:21.079
<v Speaker 1>those kinds of things. Well, I'm not going to get

692
00:38:21.079 --> 00:38:24.440
<v Speaker 1>to so and so, you know, so let's try somebody else.

693
00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:27.239
<v Speaker 2>John Innerson is the author of Take Me for a

694
00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:30.840
<v Speaker 2>Walk in the Morning. Do do you think Bonnie had

695
00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:33.000
<v Speaker 2>any idea when she finished that song that she had

696
00:38:33.039 --> 00:38:36.239
<v Speaker 2>created something that would outlive the folk revival itself, become

697
00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:38.440
<v Speaker 2>part of the rock cannon or was it just another

698
00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:40.000
<v Speaker 2>song in her repertoire.

699
00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:43.639
<v Speaker 1>She absolutely had no idea. I mean, she knew, she

700
00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:46.159
<v Speaker 1>knew it was a good song, she felt, she felt

701
00:38:46.199 --> 00:38:49.599
<v Speaker 1>strongly about and felt confident about it, But no idea

702
00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:55.519
<v Speaker 1>that she'ss like, what sixty some odd years later, you

703
00:38:55.559 --> 00:38:58.239
<v Speaker 1>and I are talking about it, Yeah, that that song

704
00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:01.800
<v Speaker 1>is still around and guaranteed that sometime in the next

705
00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:03.800
<v Speaker 1>few years someone else is going to record it and

706
00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:06.320
<v Speaker 1>they're going to stumble across it, maybe the Devil version

707
00:39:06.440 --> 00:39:08.880
<v Speaker 1>or maybe even the Lulu version, and that.

708
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:13.159
<v Speaker 2>We haven't mentioned the Almonds Gregan and Dwayne. I think

709
00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:15.760
<v Speaker 2>it was the Almond Joys at the time, if I'm

710
00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:19.519
<v Speaker 2>not mistaken. That's my brother was introduced to the song

711
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:20.920
<v Speaker 2>through that version.

712
00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:24.639
<v Speaker 1>It's interesting version, and that was that was the recorded

713
00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:27.639
<v Speaker 1>uh tracks that they recorded before they became the Almond Brothers.

714
00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:29.639
<v Speaker 2>All Right, it's like on their box set, I think,

715
00:39:29.719 --> 00:39:30.960
<v Speaker 2>is where you can find it.

716
00:39:31.960 --> 00:39:35.239
<v Speaker 1>I have just keeps the song, just keeps rolling along.

717
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:39.239
<v Speaker 1>She had no idea, and when she thinks about her

718
00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:42.519
<v Speaker 1>career in perspective, a lot of it is serendipity. A

719
00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:44.480
<v Speaker 1>lot of it is not. She never really had a

720
00:39:44.519 --> 00:39:47.039
<v Speaker 1>master plan. She never schemed to do this and do that.

721
00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:51.480
<v Speaker 1>Things just happened. And with Morning Dew, things just happen. Now,

722
00:39:51.679 --> 00:39:54.840
<v Speaker 1>if The Grateful Dead we thought was Fred Neil, Fred

723
00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:58.039
<v Speaker 1>Neil and the Grateful Dead and then tim Rose had

724
00:39:58.039 --> 00:40:01.159
<v Speaker 1>never covered it, we wouldn't be talking about Morning two.

725
00:40:01.599 --> 00:40:03.480
<v Speaker 1>You just would have been a song, a song on

726
00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:06.920
<v Speaker 1>a folk singer's album. Have sitted on her live at

727
00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:11.360
<v Speaker 1>folks City, guris Folks City in nineteen sixty three. It

728
00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:13.360
<v Speaker 1>just would have been there and lost there and gone,

729
00:40:13.400 --> 00:40:15.199
<v Speaker 1>Oh it's a great song, maybe if you happen to

730
00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:17.679
<v Speaker 1>have the album, but you'd be hard pressed to find

731
00:40:17.719 --> 00:40:20.239
<v Speaker 1>someone today who does have that album any long.

732
00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:25.639
<v Speaker 2>The book Down Rock podcast is part of the Boneless

733
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:28.400
<v Speaker 2>podcasting Network. If you're a fan of classic rock and

734
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:31.719
<v Speaker 2>classic film like I am, go to Boneless dot lovable

735
00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:35.199
<v Speaker 2>dot app to find over twenty great shows there that's

736
00:40:35.239 --> 00:40:38.400
<v Speaker 2>Boneless down Lovable dot app, or just go to bookdown

737
00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:42.119
<v Speaker 2>Rock dot com the Boneless podcasting network. It is what

738
00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:47.639
<v Speaker 2>you want to be Listen with confidence. The tim Rose

739
00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:49.880
<v Speaker 2>story and let's get to it now, because this is

740
00:40:49.880 --> 00:40:54.199
<v Speaker 2>where it gets interesting. She never met, never met tim Rose,

741
00:40:54.280 --> 00:40:57.039
<v Speaker 2>yet he receives co writing credit on one of the

742
00:40:57.079 --> 00:41:00.000
<v Speaker 2>most famous songs of the year. How walk us through

743
00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:02.880
<v Speaker 2>exactly what happened? How did that happen that he ended

744
00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:05.199
<v Speaker 2>up being known as the guy who wrote it?

745
00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:08.599
<v Speaker 1>Well, she never met him face to face, but she

746
00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:11.280
<v Speaker 1>did interact from a crowd.

747
00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:13.599
<v Speaker 2>I was gonna say, confront him, but I don't know.

748
00:41:14.199 --> 00:41:20.400
<v Speaker 1>Well she did kind of confront him. Yeah, tim Rose

749
00:41:20.679 --> 00:41:23.880
<v Speaker 1>had been in a folk group with Mama Cass. They

750
00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:27.079
<v Speaker 1>were called the Big Three. And after Mama Cass floated

751
00:41:27.119 --> 00:41:29.559
<v Speaker 1>around and then ended up in The Mamas and the Papas.

752
00:41:29.599 --> 00:41:33.360
<v Speaker 1>Tim Rose put together a group called the Thorns and

753
00:41:33.400 --> 00:41:37.400
<v Speaker 1>they were a folk group and they were actually touring

754
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:43.159
<v Speaker 1>Canada in sixty five when Neil Young saw them. Neil

755
00:41:43.159 --> 00:41:45.519
<v Speaker 1>Young and his band the Squires, were playing in thunder Bay,

756
00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:49.400
<v Speaker 1>which at the time was Fort William and Neil met

757
00:41:49.440 --> 00:41:51.320
<v Speaker 1>Tim Rose then and the Thorns, and he thought that

758
00:41:51.880 --> 00:41:55.360
<v Speaker 1>they were with the good folk act. He then got

759
00:41:55.360 --> 00:42:00.519
<v Speaker 1>a solo contract to record an album maybe with Columbia,

760
00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:05.719
<v Speaker 1>and David Robinson was the things. Rubinson was the guy

761
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:08.800
<v Speaker 1>assigned to produce it, and it's Tim that brought the

762
00:42:08.840 --> 00:42:12.880
<v Speaker 1>song to the recording sessions. As David said, I'd never

763
00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:15.519
<v Speaker 1>heard this song before Tim brought it in and they

764
00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:19.320
<v Speaker 1>worked together on the arrangement for it. So David knew

765
00:42:19.360 --> 00:42:23.400
<v Speaker 1>nothing of the history of it. But when Bonnie wrote

766
00:42:23.400 --> 00:42:26.599
<v Speaker 1>the song, she knew nothing about song publishing, so she

767
00:42:26.599 --> 00:42:29.800
<v Speaker 1>didn't establish a copyright on that song. She made the

768
00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:33.840
<v Speaker 1>mistake of having Broadside Magazine, which was like a mimeographed

769
00:42:33.960 --> 00:42:38.239
<v Speaker 1>folk music newspaper, you know, handed out in the village

770
00:42:38.280 --> 00:42:41.400
<v Speaker 1>at folk clubs. She allowed them to print it. The

771
00:42:41.519 --> 00:42:45.320
<v Speaker 1>music someone transcribed it. She can't read music and the

772
00:42:45.400 --> 00:42:49.719
<v Speaker 1>lyrics before she copyrighted the song, so she left that

773
00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:50.440
<v Speaker 1>door open.

774
00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:55.079
<v Speaker 2>And then she didn't have management at the time, you know, and.

775
00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:57.679
<v Speaker 1>She knew nothing. She didn't have any financial advice or anything.

776
00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:00.599
<v Speaker 1>Remember she did traditional folk music, so she didn't know

777
00:43:00.639 --> 00:43:05.199
<v Speaker 1>anything about the publishing your own songs, and you know.

778
00:43:05.280 --> 00:43:08.119
<v Speaker 1>Then Fred Neil then recorded it in sixty four. And

779
00:43:08.159 --> 00:43:10.440
<v Speaker 1>when Fred Neil was going to recorded, Jack Holtsman, who

780
00:43:10.480 --> 00:43:16.000
<v Speaker 1>owned Electra Records, phoned out Bonnie and said, uh, friend's

781
00:43:16.039 --> 00:43:18.360
<v Speaker 1>going to play record the song up. Bonnie knew Fred

782
00:43:18.719 --> 00:43:23.159
<v Speaker 1>from the village, and Jack Holtsman said, friends can record

783
00:43:23.159 --> 00:43:25.760
<v Speaker 1>the song. Who publishes it? She said, I don't have

784
00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:29.119
<v Speaker 1>it published with anybody, and so he said, okay, then

785
00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:32.360
<v Speaker 1>we'll publish it under our old elector's own publishing company

786
00:43:32.440 --> 00:43:36.519
<v Speaker 1>called Nina Music. And Nina was was Jack Holtzman's wife.

787
00:43:38.320 --> 00:43:43.519
<v Speaker 1>But at that point it had already been made public

788
00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:45.280
<v Speaker 1>on broadside.

789
00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:46.039
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

790
00:43:46.760 --> 00:43:50.480
<v Speaker 1>So it's obvious that Tim Rose heard the Fred Neil

791
00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:53.079
<v Speaker 1>version because he sings the walk Me Out in the

792
00:43:53.079 --> 00:43:55.400
<v Speaker 1>Morning do line not take me for a walk in

793
00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:57.760
<v Speaker 1>the morning do. And Fred was the first to do that,

794
00:43:59.639 --> 00:44:03.320
<v Speaker 1>so he heard that version, but he didn't look at

795
00:44:03.320 --> 00:44:07.559
<v Speaker 1>the credit because Fred Neil credited it to Bonnie Dobson.

796
00:44:08.559 --> 00:44:12.079
<v Speaker 1>But this whole issue of between sixty one or so

797
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:16.360
<v Speaker 1>or sixty two and sixty four, when Fred Neil did it,

798
00:44:16.920 --> 00:44:20.880
<v Speaker 1>the copyright was nebulous. It wasn't published at all, and

799
00:44:20.920 --> 00:44:27.480
<v Speaker 1>so tim Rose was smart enough regular to realize, there's

800
00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:30.880
<v Speaker 1>a loophole here, and I changed a line in this song,

801
00:44:31.400 --> 00:44:33.719
<v Speaker 1>and I changed a bit of the arrangement, so I'm

802
00:44:33.719 --> 00:44:37.239
<v Speaker 1>going to claim co credit. And Barney didn't even know

803
00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:40.320
<v Speaker 1>about that, you know, for several years later when she

804
00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:42.920
<v Speaker 1>started seeing the song being covered by other artists and

805
00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:45.239
<v Speaker 1>seeing this other guy's name, someone she didn't even know.

806
00:44:45.400 --> 00:44:48.840
<v Speaker 1>She had no idea who tim Rose was. And by

807
00:44:48.840 --> 00:44:54.000
<v Speaker 1>that point he had published it as tim Rose with

808
00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:57.840
<v Speaker 1>another publishing company. So you've got these two publishing companies

809
00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:01.320
<v Speaker 1>with this song. But before that song was ever published,

810
00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:05.039
<v Speaker 1>she had made it public. So she left herself open

811
00:45:05.079 --> 00:45:08.079
<v Speaker 1>for that, and she certainly admits her naivety cost her

812
00:45:08.599 --> 00:45:12.800
<v Speaker 1>in the end, but that started the battle of her

813
00:45:12.880 --> 00:45:15.920
<v Speaker 1>trying to regain control of that song. And as you

814
00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:18.000
<v Speaker 1>and I know, on the Truth album, Jeff Beck, it

815
00:45:18.119 --> 00:45:20.559
<v Speaker 1>just said tim Rose. Even the liner notes, I remember

816
00:45:20.840 --> 00:45:23.199
<v Speaker 1>it's Jeff says, but we know Timmy does this better.

817
00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:25.760
<v Speaker 1>But we think we do pretty good too. You know,

818
00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:29.559
<v Speaker 1>there was no bond, and as more and more covers,

819
00:45:29.679 --> 00:45:31.800
<v Speaker 1>you know, came up, more and more, you'd see tim

820
00:45:31.880 --> 00:45:34.000
<v Speaker 1>Rose's name, and then you started to see just tim

821
00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:37.719
<v Speaker 1>Rose and that you know, I would probably venture to

822
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:40.280
<v Speaker 1>say that close to half or more of the cover

823
00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:43.880
<v Speaker 1>versions that we've been talking about credited just to tim Rose.

824
00:45:44.239 --> 00:45:49.039
<v Speaker 2>Well there's a story behind him. And hey, Joe, I

825
00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:51.320
<v Speaker 2>mean that's the version Jimmy Hendricks heard and said, hey,

826
00:45:51.320 --> 00:45:54.280
<v Speaker 2>I want to record that. It's a very similar story,

827
00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:55.159
<v Speaker 2>isn't it.

828
00:45:55.159 --> 00:45:57.639
<v Speaker 1>It is? But he got shut down quickly on that,

829
00:45:57.760 --> 00:46:00.440
<v Speaker 1>and he probably got shut down by publishers of of

830
00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:00.960
<v Speaker 1>the song.

831
00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:05.719
<v Speaker 2>And then Roberts wrote that, yeah, yeah, that's right.

832
00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:09.079
<v Speaker 1>And there was another song too, and I can't remember that,

833
00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:12.159
<v Speaker 1>something about come to Me Belinda or something like that.

834
00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:14.320
<v Speaker 1>He also tried to claim credit on that one too,

835
00:46:14.679 --> 00:46:18.360
<v Speaker 1>So he was he was fast and loose with copyright laws,

836
00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:21.920
<v Speaker 1>and he knew what he was doing, but he as

837
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:24.119
<v Speaker 1>as more and more people covered the song and claimed

838
00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:26.400
<v Speaker 1>it for him. You know, there was a big ad

839
00:46:26.480 --> 00:46:30.599
<v Speaker 1>in actually the ad for Lulu's Song in nineteen sixty

840
00:46:30.639 --> 00:46:32.800
<v Speaker 1>seven and one of the British you know, new Musical

841
00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:35.800
<v Speaker 1>Express or Melody Maker full page ad that said Tim

842
00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:43.119
<v Speaker 1>Roses recording Tim Roses Morning Dew. And increasingly, and as

843
00:46:43.159 --> 00:46:45.440
<v Speaker 1>I said, probably more than half of the artists that

844
00:46:45.599 --> 00:46:48.679
<v Speaker 1>covered the song over the decades saw it as a

845
00:46:48.679 --> 00:46:51.159
<v Speaker 1>tim Rose song and saw it credited as a tim

846
00:46:51.199 --> 00:46:55.440
<v Speaker 1>Row song and credited himself to Tim Rose. So he

847
00:46:55.559 --> 00:46:59.599
<v Speaker 1>was getting half the royalties on that song because he

848
00:46:59.639 --> 00:47:04.599
<v Speaker 1>claimed as a songwriter. So it was the fact that

849
00:47:05.199 --> 00:47:07.440
<v Speaker 1>I mean, because I mean they were getting they were

850
00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:09.760
<v Speaker 1>Bonnie was still getting royalties, but she wasn't getting her

851
00:47:09.800 --> 00:47:11.800
<v Speaker 1>full royalties because it's her song. She was giving half

852
00:47:11.840 --> 00:47:14.239
<v Speaker 1>the royalties to some guy she never met, who did

853
00:47:14.280 --> 00:47:17.920
<v Speaker 1>not write the song. So it was really a battle

854
00:47:17.920 --> 00:47:21.280
<v Speaker 1>for a number of years to get that settled, and

855
00:47:21.320 --> 00:47:24.239
<v Speaker 1>she finally really within the last ten years or so,

856
00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:28.840
<v Speaker 1>found a lawyer, a copyright lawyer in London who took

857
00:47:28.840 --> 00:47:32.079
<v Speaker 1>on the case and again at the prompting of Robert

858
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:36.480
<v Speaker 1>Plant and God it straightened out that tim Rose's name

859
00:47:36.519 --> 00:47:39.639
<v Speaker 1>does not appear on it anymore. But tim Rose died

860
00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:42.880
<v Speaker 1>decades ago, and someone in his family and Bonnie doesn't

861
00:47:42.920 --> 00:47:46.480
<v Speaker 1>know who, and Barnie's lawyer doesn't know who. Someone in

862
00:47:46.519 --> 00:47:48.760
<v Speaker 1>the tim Rose estate is still getting money off that song,

863
00:47:48.840 --> 00:47:50.280
<v Speaker 1>but he's not getting.

864
00:47:50.000 --> 00:48:01.159
<v Speaker 2>Half right seventy she gets Okay, Yeah, you know, I

865
00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:04.440
<v Speaker 2>wonder about Tim Rose. I mean, was this something in

866
00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:07.199
<v Speaker 2>his defense? It's it's a fantastic version that he that

867
00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:10.480
<v Speaker 2>he yes does right, I mean, was this something like

868
00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:15.679
<v Speaker 2>nefarious you know? Or can we can we speak in

869
00:48:15.719 --> 00:48:17.840
<v Speaker 2>defense of tim Rows like I don't know? Was it

870
00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:20.559
<v Speaker 2>just one of those things like, hey, you know, I

871
00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:24.000
<v Speaker 2>was just smart enough to know let me take publishing

872
00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:25.760
<v Speaker 2>credit for it. Or should he have said non, no,

873
00:48:25.880 --> 00:48:26.800
<v Speaker 2>this isn't my song.

874
00:48:27.280 --> 00:48:28.800
<v Speaker 1>Well he should have, Yes, he should have done that,

875
00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.440
<v Speaker 1>And was he nefarious in some way and said, ah haha,

876
00:48:31.519 --> 00:48:34.519
<v Speaker 1>I can do this. Yeah. But but tim Rose apologists

877
00:48:34.760 --> 00:48:36.440
<v Speaker 1>and I have some of them quoted in the book.

878
00:48:37.639 --> 00:48:39.880
<v Speaker 1>They follow Tim's line and he says, well, I didn't

879
00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:42.199
<v Speaker 1>know who published it. I didn't know who wrote it.

880
00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:45.360
<v Speaker 1>I just saw the song somewhere or heard it and

881
00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:49.440
<v Speaker 1>I just decided to do it. No, if he did

882
00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:52.320
<v Speaker 1>this with other songs, especially with Hey Joe, you know once,

883
00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:54.719
<v Speaker 1>you can say if he did it once, well, okay,

884
00:48:54.800 --> 00:48:58.639
<v Speaker 1>maybe it's an error. Twice three times, it was calculated

885
00:48:58.920 --> 00:49:01.840
<v Speaker 1>to do that. Got to the point of defending himself

886
00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:04.079
<v Speaker 1>all the time when asked about the song. Oh no,

887
00:49:04.519 --> 00:49:06.960
<v Speaker 1>Bonnie and I are friends and we share the copyrights

888
00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:07.199
<v Speaker 1>on it.

889
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:10.599
<v Speaker 2>There's a version on Spotify, not his original version, but

890
00:49:10.679 --> 00:49:13.239
<v Speaker 2>one that he played live, and I thought it was interesting.

891
00:49:13.239 --> 00:49:15.639
<v Speaker 2>In the beginning, he says, this is dedicated to Jerry Garcia.

892
00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:18.119
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if it was recorded right after Jerry passed,

893
00:49:18.119 --> 00:49:21.360
<v Speaker 2>but it's just funny, like he's not even acknowledging her

894
00:49:21.400 --> 00:49:25.480
<v Speaker 2>in that recording. He's dedicating it to Jerry Garcia. Wow.

895
00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:28.400
<v Speaker 1>That leads to the confrontation that she had with him

896
00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:31.840
<v Speaker 1>in at the half Moon or something club in Putney

897
00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:37.159
<v Speaker 1>in London where Big Ads Tim Rose famous for Morningdoe

898
00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:39.480
<v Speaker 1>playing at this such a club, and she went with

899
00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:41.440
<v Speaker 1>some of her friends and stood at the back. And

900
00:49:41.480 --> 00:49:43.440
<v Speaker 1>it's interesting too. I didn't know this until I started

901
00:49:43.440 --> 00:49:46.400
<v Speaker 1>interviewing some people who were there. They said there was

902
00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:48.760
<v Speaker 1>a German documentary company there and they had cameras, so

903
00:49:48.800 --> 00:49:51.599
<v Speaker 1>they were filming Tim's show for whatever, and all of

904
00:49:51.639 --> 00:49:54.599
<v Speaker 1>a sudden, this lady at the back says, stop playing

905
00:49:54.639 --> 00:49:57.480
<v Speaker 1>my song. You didn't write it, And the cameras all

906
00:49:57.519 --> 00:50:01.159
<v Speaker 1>swarm over to this red haired, little spark plug of

907
00:50:01.199 --> 00:50:04.440
<v Speaker 1>a lady and then tips aga money and he said,

908
00:50:04.480 --> 00:50:05.760
<v Speaker 1>you wouldn't come up here and sing it with me.

909
00:50:05.880 --> 00:50:08.000
<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't sing this song with you ever. And the

910
00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:11.599
<v Speaker 1>cameras are going back and forth, two people having a

911
00:50:11.719 --> 00:50:15.320
<v Speaker 1>fight in public in a crowd. But you know, she's

912
00:50:15.480 --> 00:50:17.599
<v Speaker 1>she's stepped and she'd had enough. I guess by that,

913
00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:22.079
<v Speaker 1>especially too when when by that point Tim was well

914
00:50:22.119 --> 00:50:25.039
<v Speaker 1>into saying it was his song alone. He bought that

915
00:50:25.159 --> 00:50:27.440
<v Speaker 1>whole I mean, he swallowed the kool aid on that one.

916
00:50:27.599 --> 00:50:31.760
<v Speaker 2>Hm. Yeah, good for her, she stood up for herself. Yeah,

917
00:50:31.800 --> 00:50:35.880
<v Speaker 2>she made the decision to leave behind a successful North

918
00:50:35.880 --> 00:50:39.280
<v Speaker 2>American career and start over in England. Did you come

919
00:50:39.320 --> 00:50:42.400
<v Speaker 2>away feeling she was running towards something or a new

920
00:50:42.440 --> 00:50:45.000
<v Speaker 2>life or away from the music industry.

921
00:50:46.079 --> 00:50:49.559
<v Speaker 1>Came disillusioned with it, nothing with the music industry at all.

922
00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:53.199
<v Speaker 1>She met a guy she wanted to marry. Okay, her

923
00:50:53.199 --> 00:50:56.559
<v Speaker 1>second husband, and he was from England and she met

924
00:50:56.639 --> 00:50:59.000
<v Speaker 1>him in Canada when he was working in Canada, and

925
00:50:59.119 --> 00:51:01.079
<v Speaker 1>he went back to England and then she fell in

926
00:51:01.119 --> 00:51:04.280
<v Speaker 1>love and followed her heart. So it wasn't it wasn't

927
00:51:04.320 --> 00:51:06.320
<v Speaker 1>a case that I just can't do this anymore, because

928
00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:09.320
<v Speaker 1>she had just released actually a pretty good album just

929
00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:13.960
<v Speaker 1>called Morning de Bonnie Dobson, and the producer was Jack Richardson,

930
00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:17.880
<v Speaker 1>who produced you know, Bob Seeger and Poko and he

931
00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:21.360
<v Speaker 1>meet his fame with the guess who Bay City Rollers,

932
00:51:21.480 --> 00:51:24.559
<v Speaker 1>on and on. He was a big producer guy, and

933
00:51:24.599 --> 00:51:26.880
<v Speaker 1>he always liked Bonnie and he wanted to he wanted

934
00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:31.280
<v Speaker 1>to make her music a little more contemporary, and so

935
00:51:31.559 --> 00:51:34.239
<v Speaker 1>he got her away from the traditional folk kind of songs.

936
00:51:34.280 --> 00:51:36.199
<v Speaker 1>And she had been writing and she had a few

937
00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:40.239
<v Speaker 1>songs that were decent songs, so he encouraged her to right.

938
00:51:40.320 --> 00:51:44.719
<v Speaker 1>He brought in songs from from other largely Canadian songwriters,

939
00:51:45.239 --> 00:51:49.079
<v Speaker 1>and the album got good notices, and she then recorded

940
00:51:49.079 --> 00:51:51.960
<v Speaker 1>another one called Good Morning Rain, which was her own song,

941
00:51:53.800 --> 00:51:57.159
<v Speaker 1>literally months before she moved to England. And she kind

942
00:51:57.159 --> 00:52:00.719
<v Speaker 1>of left left Jack Richardson and RCA because both albums

943
00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:04.719
<v Speaker 1>were on RCAA kind of hanging because when the album

944
00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:07.320
<v Speaker 1>came out, she wasn't there to promote her to play

945
00:52:07.400 --> 00:52:09.519
<v Speaker 1>or do concerts or indiviews or whatever she was she

946
00:52:09.639 --> 00:52:13.440
<v Speaker 1>was over in England. But Bonnie is a very romantic

947
00:52:13.480 --> 00:52:18.239
<v Speaker 1>person and she follows her heart and that's the decision

948
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:24.199
<v Speaker 1>that she made. My heart is more important than my career.

949
00:52:24.920 --> 00:52:28.079
<v Speaker 1>She was fortunate to kind of kickstart her career early

950
00:52:28.119 --> 00:52:32.320
<v Speaker 1>on when she got to England. But yeah, it wasn't

951
00:52:32.400 --> 00:52:36.280
<v Speaker 1>It wasn't in any way motivated by frustration with the

952
00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:39.760
<v Speaker 1>music business and all of that, because she really wasn't

953
00:52:40.119 --> 00:52:43.239
<v Speaker 1>fully aware of and she said she didn't become aware

954
00:52:43.280 --> 00:52:45.800
<v Speaker 1>of it till she moved to England. Of how much

955
00:52:46.119 --> 00:52:48.800
<v Speaker 1>Morning Dew had been covered and how much tim Rose

956
00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:51.719
<v Speaker 1>had been, you know, claiming it and talking it up

957
00:52:51.719 --> 00:52:53.840
<v Speaker 1>as if it's her song. So that really starts to

958
00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:58.880
<v Speaker 1>happen when she's in England. But but yeah, again, I

959
00:52:58.920 --> 00:53:00.320
<v Speaker 1>just can't say it any other way. I think she

960
00:53:00.400 --> 00:53:01.400
<v Speaker 1>was really following her heart.

961
00:53:02.559 --> 00:53:04.519
<v Speaker 2>Raised the family, Yeah, that's it.

962
00:53:04.679 --> 00:53:07.559
<v Speaker 1>She had two kids with this her second husband, and

963
00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:10.559
<v Speaker 1>then they split up. So she was then from about

964
00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:14.280
<v Speaker 1>seventy two to seventy three onward, raising the kids herself,

965
00:53:14.559 --> 00:53:16.480
<v Speaker 1>and she would still be gigging. She'd have to go out,

966
00:53:16.519 --> 00:53:19.679
<v Speaker 1>you know, in some cases, drive all afternoon, play somewhere,

967
00:53:19.679 --> 00:53:21.239
<v Speaker 1>and drive all night to be back to make the

968
00:53:21.320 --> 00:53:24.159
<v Speaker 1>kids breakfast in the morning and get them off to school,

969
00:53:24.199 --> 00:53:26.480
<v Speaker 1>that sort of thing. The BBC was a big help

970
00:53:26.480 --> 00:53:29.719
<v Speaker 1>for her too. They brought her in often to make recordings,

971
00:53:29.719 --> 00:53:32.639
<v Speaker 1>and the BBC paid really well for her to do

972
00:53:32.679 --> 00:53:35.239
<v Speaker 1>that too, So she just managed to carry on and

973
00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:39.559
<v Speaker 1>go along. She made more albums and developed her songwriting.

974
00:53:39.639 --> 00:53:43.239
<v Speaker 1>And that's one of the things I'm pleased that I'm

975
00:53:43.239 --> 00:53:45.960
<v Speaker 1>pleased to myself, but I'm glad I did, was to

976
00:53:46.039 --> 00:53:49.639
<v Speaker 1>include examples of her songwriting in the book, because I

977
00:53:49.639 --> 00:53:51.639
<v Speaker 1>suspect there's a lot of people who don't know her

978
00:53:51.679 --> 00:53:56.159
<v Speaker 1>other than maybe morning do. And she became a very good,

979
00:53:56.639 --> 00:53:59.320
<v Speaker 1>very good songwriter, and she wrote from experience, She wrote

980
00:53:59.320 --> 00:54:02.639
<v Speaker 1>from the heart, just make up a song. She had

981
00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:06.440
<v Speaker 1>to write from experience of things that happened in her life.

982
00:54:07.039 --> 00:54:11.079
<v Speaker 1>And I wish, and I'd still my wish. I hope

983
00:54:11.079 --> 00:54:13.760
<v Speaker 1>it happens. But I would love to have seen a

984
00:54:13.800 --> 00:54:18.599
<v Speaker 1>compilation CD put together of her songs, of her material

985
00:54:19.360 --> 00:54:23.280
<v Speaker 1>because it's it's really evolved and become fabulous, and you

986
00:54:23.320 --> 00:54:25.280
<v Speaker 1>get little bits and pieces of it on different albums,

987
00:54:25.280 --> 00:54:28.079
<v Speaker 1>some some vinyl sms not on CD. That sort of thing.

988
00:54:28.159 --> 00:54:30.719
<v Speaker 1>Be nice to have put something together that that kind

989
00:54:30.719 --> 00:54:33.039
<v Speaker 1>of came out around the same time as the book.

990
00:54:33.480 --> 00:54:35.719
<v Speaker 1>Maybe it might happen, you know, in the new year.

991
00:54:36.159 --> 00:54:39.159
<v Speaker 1>But I would love to see that happen because she

992
00:54:39.519 --> 00:54:42.400
<v Speaker 1>deserves to have this material hurt, because she's she's more

993
00:54:42.440 --> 00:54:42.960
<v Speaker 1>than morning do.

994
00:54:45.719 --> 00:54:48.119
<v Speaker 2>Thanks so much for checking out the book down Rock podcast.

995
00:54:48.400 --> 00:54:51.920
<v Speaker 2>If you've just found the podcast, welcome. If you've been listening,

996
00:54:52.159 --> 00:54:54.239
<v Speaker 2>thank you so much for your support, and make sure

997
00:54:54.280 --> 00:54:56.800
<v Speaker 2>you tell a friend, a family member, share on social

998
00:54:56.840 --> 00:55:00.280
<v Speaker 2>media and let people know about Booked on Rock, and

999
00:55:00.360 --> 00:55:02.679
<v Speaker 2>if you do like the podcast, make sure you subscribe

1000
00:55:02.960 --> 00:55:05.360
<v Speaker 2>give a five star review. Wherever you listen to the

1001
00:55:05.360 --> 00:55:10.039
<v Speaker 2>Booked on Rock podcast, We're on Amazon, Apple, iHeart, Spotify, Spreaker,

1002
00:55:10.079 --> 00:55:12.920
<v Speaker 2>tune in in on YouTube music. You can check out

1003
00:55:12.920 --> 00:55:15.599
<v Speaker 2>the full episodes on video along with video highlights from

1004
00:55:15.639 --> 00:55:18.679
<v Speaker 2>episodes on the Booked on Rock YouTube channel. Find it

1005
00:55:18.719 --> 00:55:22.239
<v Speaker 2>at Booked on Rock. Thanks again for listening. Now back

1006
00:55:22.280 --> 00:55:25.639
<v Speaker 2>to the show. Days of Reckoning is another that's a

1007
00:55:25.639 --> 00:55:28.639
<v Speaker 2>great song from ninety six. Now that's she returned to

1008
00:55:28.760 --> 00:55:31.519
<v Speaker 2>the business on her own terms at that point and

1009
00:55:31.920 --> 00:55:35.360
<v Speaker 2>writes and records Days of Reckoning, which is like a

1010
00:55:35.440 --> 00:55:37.239
<v Speaker 2>companion piece to Morning Do. Right.

1011
00:55:37.880 --> 00:55:41.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, she worked with Freedom freedoman with Techi who was

1012
00:55:41.599 --> 00:55:44.079
<v Speaker 1>a German musician and he had a studio in Germany.

1013
00:55:44.119 --> 00:55:46.199
<v Speaker 1>They met me in London and he backed her up

1014
00:55:46.199 --> 00:55:48.400
<v Speaker 1>for a while, but she went over and recorded there,

1015
00:55:48.559 --> 00:55:51.880
<v Speaker 1>and yeah, it's a brilliant song, and I think she's

1016
00:55:51.960 --> 00:55:54.519
<v Speaker 1>kind of come to realize how brilliant that song is.

1017
00:55:55.719 --> 00:55:58.199
<v Speaker 1>It's one of my favorites. Good Morning Rain, I've since

1018
00:55:58.320 --> 00:56:02.159
<v Speaker 1>learned from another interview with that I did has been

1019
00:56:02.199 --> 00:56:05.599
<v Speaker 1>downloaded something like two hundred thousand times. She had no

1020
00:56:05.719 --> 00:56:09.519
<v Speaker 1>idea about, you know, Spotify and that kind of music streaming,

1021
00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:11.679
<v Speaker 1>you know, I mean, we know we know that Spotify

1022
00:56:11.679 --> 00:56:14.119
<v Speaker 1>plays you know, a point zero zero eighty four cents

1023
00:56:14.199 --> 00:56:17.840
<v Speaker 1>for every download, but she was just completely unaware of that,

1024
00:56:17.960 --> 00:56:20.840
<v Speaker 1>especially a song like Good Morning Rain wasn't a hit,

1025
00:56:21.079 --> 00:56:25.159
<v Speaker 1>wasn't a single, but obviously it's connected with people who've

1026
00:56:25.199 --> 00:56:29.199
<v Speaker 1>discovered it and spread the word. So again, these serendipitous

1027
00:56:29.239 --> 00:56:32.239
<v Speaker 1>things that happened in her life and who would have.

1028
00:56:32.199 --> 00:56:35.039
<v Speaker 2>Thought good morning rained two million streams.

1029
00:56:35.679 --> 00:56:39.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and an eighty five year old woman, you know,

1030
00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:44.239
<v Speaker 1>experiencing this, this career renaissance, certainly in the last few years.

1031
00:56:44.239 --> 00:56:45.920
<v Speaker 1>I mean, who knows how long it will go on.

1032
00:56:46.480 --> 00:56:49.039
<v Speaker 1>She still sings like a songbird. She sings every song

1033
00:56:49.079 --> 00:56:52.480
<v Speaker 1>in the same key. But that beautiful, soaring soprano voice

1034
00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:55.480
<v Speaker 1>that's still there. It's not like she stopped singing. She

1035
00:56:55.559 --> 00:56:57.119
<v Speaker 1>continues to sing always.

1036
00:56:57.239 --> 00:57:00.000
<v Speaker 2>Hey, how about how about a Robert Plant Bonnie Dobson

1037
00:57:00.079 --> 00:57:02.239
<v Speaker 2>album right like he did with Alison Crouse.

1038
00:57:03.239 --> 00:57:07.920
<v Speaker 1>Oh, I think that he's better off for alison longevity.

1039
00:57:09.079 --> 00:57:13.119
<v Speaker 1>Bonnie is known as rootsy as Robert and Alison listen,

1040
00:57:13.199 --> 00:57:16.440
<v Speaker 1>I mean I wrote Geene Clark's biography and gene Clark's

1041
00:57:16.440 --> 00:57:19.000
<v Speaker 1>two sons, one of which has since passed away. They

1042
00:57:19.039 --> 00:57:24.239
<v Speaker 1>were absolutely thrilled when on that Raising Sand album, which

1043
00:57:24.320 --> 00:57:27.760
<v Speaker 1>was Allison and Robert, they did two gene Clark songs

1044
00:57:28.880 --> 00:57:30.880
<v Speaker 1>and they got to meet at a show. They got

1045
00:57:30.920 --> 00:57:32.920
<v Speaker 1>backstage to be able to meet him, and Robert Plant

1046
00:57:32.960 --> 00:57:36.679
<v Speaker 1>was thrilled to meet gene Clark's sons.

1047
00:57:37.159 --> 00:57:41.440
<v Speaker 2>That's awesome and body considers now the seventy five percent.

1048
00:57:41.559 --> 00:57:44.119
<v Speaker 2>That's her pinchon and after she's gone, the money goes

1049
00:57:44.119 --> 00:57:44.719
<v Speaker 2>to her daughter.

1050
00:57:45.320 --> 00:57:45.519
<v Speaker 1>Yep.

1051
00:57:46.239 --> 00:57:49.039
<v Speaker 2>And the book ends with not her past, but the

1052
00:57:49.079 --> 00:57:51.079
<v Speaker 2>creation of a brand new album. Tell us about that.

1053
00:57:51.199 --> 00:57:56.280
<v Speaker 2>Where Bonnie is at today, eighty five, still going strong, Yeah.

1054
00:57:56.000 --> 00:57:58.679
<v Speaker 1>She is, And she's been doing some gigs lately, back

1055
00:57:58.719 --> 00:58:02.559
<v Speaker 1>with the Hanging Stars. They're kind of a ald country,

1056
00:58:02.800 --> 00:58:05.920
<v Speaker 1>rootsy Americana kind of band. They've been compared to The

1057
00:58:05.920 --> 00:58:11.239
<v Speaker 1>Grateful Dead, they've been compared to the Birds and again serendipitous.

1058
00:58:11.360 --> 00:58:13.840
<v Speaker 1>She had written some songs and she wanted to get

1059
00:58:13.840 --> 00:58:18.400
<v Speaker 1>them recorded with with a band, and she a friend,

1060
00:58:18.519 --> 00:58:21.840
<v Speaker 1>a friend, Ski Williams, took her to see the Hayy

1061
00:58:21.880 --> 00:58:24.679
<v Speaker 1>Stars playing at the Betsy Trotter, which is a fabulous pub.

1062
00:58:24.719 --> 00:58:27.000
<v Speaker 1>I've been there to see music in London and wonderful.

1063
00:58:27.039 --> 00:58:28.599
<v Speaker 1>We're actually going to do a book event there.

1064
00:58:28.639 --> 00:58:30.920
<v Speaker 2>Barney's going to perform.

1065
00:58:31.079 --> 00:58:32.920
<v Speaker 1>And she really liked them and she got to know them,

1066
00:58:32.920 --> 00:58:36.239
<v Speaker 1>and so she did. She she hired them to rehearse

1067
00:58:36.400 --> 00:58:37.840
<v Speaker 1>and to go in the studio. She paid all the

1068
00:58:37.880 --> 00:58:41.360
<v Speaker 1>studio sessions and costs and pay them a salary because

1069
00:58:41.360 --> 00:58:44.599
<v Speaker 1>she wanted these songs recorded not for any not for

1070
00:58:44.639 --> 00:58:47.760
<v Speaker 1>any other purpose but her own. But as it evolved,

1071
00:58:47.800 --> 00:58:52.119
<v Speaker 1>the the connections, the chemistry between them and these guys,

1072
00:58:52.280 --> 00:58:54.199
<v Speaker 1>you know, I mean they're in they're in their early thirties,

1073
00:58:54.320 --> 00:58:57.880
<v Speaker 1>she's in her eighties, but the musical chemistry just just

1074
00:58:58.280 --> 00:59:03.320
<v Speaker 1>was so incredible together that they both realized there's an

1075
00:59:03.320 --> 00:59:06.920
<v Speaker 1>album here, and so that became, you know, the Dreams album,

1076
00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:10.440
<v Speaker 1>which you know, came out two years ago and as

1077
00:59:10.440 --> 00:59:14.960
<v Speaker 1>I said, got great notices everywhere, and it's it gathered

1078
00:59:14.960 --> 00:59:17.480
<v Speaker 1>together some some of the songs she'd written previously, like

1079
00:59:18.840 --> 00:59:23.719
<v Speaker 1>Rainy Windows and Winter's Going. Winter's Going with Jarvis Cocker's

1080
00:59:23.719 --> 00:59:27.239
<v Speaker 1>favorite song, and it's Winter's Going that caused him to

1081
00:59:27.239 --> 00:59:30.559
<v Speaker 1>look up Bonnie to play at this show he was curating,

1082
00:59:30.599 --> 00:59:33.840
<v Speaker 1>called the Lost Ladies of Folk music to come and

1083
00:59:33.880 --> 00:59:36.119
<v Speaker 1>perform for that. So you never know where these songs

1084
00:59:36.159 --> 00:59:38.840
<v Speaker 1>are and how they're they're they're touching people. But Winter's

1085
00:59:38.880 --> 00:59:42.000
<v Speaker 1>Going is a very difficult song for her in that

1086
00:59:42.239 --> 00:59:47.239
<v Speaker 1>it's about the aftermath of her abortion. She never talked

1087
00:59:47.280 --> 00:59:50.880
<v Speaker 1>about the abortion. Even her son, who since passed away,

1088
00:59:50.880 --> 00:59:55.159
<v Speaker 1>and her daughter never knew about it at all until

1089
00:59:55.400 --> 00:59:57.639
<v Speaker 1>she opened up about it. When she was doing the

1090
00:59:57.679 --> 01:00:01.719
<v Speaker 1>book with me, doing interviews and and stuff. So some

1091
01:00:01.760 --> 01:00:03.840
<v Speaker 1>of these songs, some some new songs that she'd written.

1092
01:00:04.119 --> 01:00:05.800
<v Speaker 1>It got a chance to put them together and put

1093
01:00:05.840 --> 01:00:11.400
<v Speaker 1>an album out and it deserved better represent better distribution

1094
01:00:11.519 --> 01:00:13.719
<v Speaker 1>than it got because it's a very very good album.

1095
01:00:14.199 --> 01:00:17.840
<v Speaker 1>So the few thousand people who bought it, you know,

1096
01:00:17.880 --> 01:00:20.320
<v Speaker 1>they know what a treasure it is. And here's you know,

1097
01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:23.159
<v Speaker 1>she may record again with the Hanging Stars. Who knows

1098
01:00:23.159 --> 01:00:26.159
<v Speaker 1>she's been performing live with them again. She's got a

1099
01:00:26.159 --> 01:00:27.800
<v Speaker 1>couple of them who are backing her on some of

1100
01:00:27.840 --> 01:00:31.000
<v Speaker 1>these book events that we're doing in London, including at

1101
01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:31.760
<v Speaker 1>the Betsy Trotter.

1102
01:00:32.320 --> 01:00:36.599
<v Speaker 2>So who else what's going to happen? And one last

1103
01:00:36.679 --> 01:00:38.960
<v Speaker 2>question before I asked that that there's a quote that

1104
01:00:39.039 --> 01:00:42.480
<v Speaker 2>I want to read from Bonnie. She said it was

1105
01:00:42.559 --> 01:00:46.239
<v Speaker 2>never about the money for me. I just wanted recognition

1106
01:00:46.519 --> 01:00:49.320
<v Speaker 2>as the sole writer of that song. So do you

1107
01:00:49.400 --> 01:00:52.159
<v Speaker 2>think that history now has finally corrected the record on

1108
01:00:52.239 --> 01:00:55.440
<v Speaker 2>Bonnie's authorship of Morning Do or is there still work

1109
01:00:55.480 --> 01:00:58.079
<v Speaker 2>to be done to ensure that she receives that recognition

1110
01:00:58.199 --> 01:00:59.519
<v Speaker 2>that she deserves.

1111
01:01:00.480 --> 01:01:03.559
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think she's now legally established that, yes, But

1112
01:01:04.000 --> 01:01:06.039
<v Speaker 1>as for getting the word out, I think the book

1113
01:01:06.079 --> 01:01:08.559
<v Speaker 1>will help because the book is going to be you know,

1114
01:01:08.559 --> 01:01:13.400
<v Speaker 1>distributed worldwide, so it's gonna help with that. But you know,

1115
01:01:13.880 --> 01:01:16.760
<v Speaker 1>all we can do is hope that that that every

1116
01:01:16.760 --> 01:01:20.519
<v Speaker 1>in everybody's minds it's changed. And certainly anybody today who

1117
01:01:20.559 --> 01:01:23.320
<v Speaker 1>wants to go and cover Morning de will see that

1118
01:01:23.360 --> 01:01:27.320
<v Speaker 1>it's just Bonnie Dobson's name on there. So yeah, I mean,

1119
01:01:27.320 --> 01:01:29.480
<v Speaker 1>as as I said earlier, the song's going to live

1120
01:01:29.480 --> 01:01:31.519
<v Speaker 1>for it's going to outlive you and I. There's somebody

1121
01:01:32.320 --> 01:01:35.000
<v Speaker 1>thirty years from now who's going to record that song,

1122
01:01:35.039 --> 01:01:37.159
<v Speaker 1>but they will record it and credited to Bonnie Dobson.

1123
01:01:37.480 --> 01:01:40.480
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and the book is a huge help to that

1124
01:01:40.679 --> 01:01:43.199
<v Speaker 2>and artists who are going to perform it live. Just

1125
01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:46.079
<v Speaker 2>make sure you mentioned that it was written by Bonnie Dobson.

1126
01:01:45.800 --> 01:01:50.079
<v Speaker 1>Right Fiery Lady in red hair at the back yelling end.

1127
01:01:50.159 --> 01:01:54.960
<v Speaker 2>Might there find the bookdown Rock website at bookdown Rock

1128
01:01:55.199 --> 01:01:58.199
<v Speaker 2>dot com. There you can find all the back episodes

1129
01:01:58.239 --> 01:02:01.239
<v Speaker 2>of the show, the latest episode in and audio links

1130
01:02:01.280 --> 01:02:03.119
<v Speaker 2>to all of the platforms where you can listen to

1131
01:02:03.159 --> 01:02:06.440
<v Speaker 2>the podcast. Plus all the social media platforms were on

1132
01:02:06.480 --> 01:02:10.920
<v Speaker 2>Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok and x. Also check out

1133
01:02:10.920 --> 01:02:14.280
<v Speaker 2>the Booked on Rock blog. Find your local independent bookstore.

1134
01:02:14.719 --> 01:02:17.719
<v Speaker 2>Find out all the latest hot rockbook releases. And before

1135
01:02:17.760 --> 01:02:19.960
<v Speaker 2>you go, check out the booked on Rock online store.

1136
01:02:20.119 --> 01:02:23.280
<v Speaker 2>Pick up some booked on Rock merch. It's all at

1137
01:02:23.280 --> 01:02:28.440
<v Speaker 2>booked on Rock dot com. The book's out September tenth, right, okay,

1138
01:02:28.480 --> 01:02:30.480
<v Speaker 2>but people can preorder it now, take me for a

1139
01:02:30.519 --> 01:02:33.480
<v Speaker 2>walk in the morning. Do September ten release date, but

1140
01:02:33.519 --> 01:02:36.320
<v Speaker 2>you can pre order now through Amazon. You can also

1141
01:02:36.360 --> 01:02:39.599
<v Speaker 2>go to jobble onpress dot com. There's a signed copy

1142
01:02:39.840 --> 01:02:42.519
<v Speaker 2>available from rough Trade as well. Is that still?

1143
01:02:43.039 --> 01:02:45.239
<v Speaker 1>Oh? Well, well, I'm going to England at the start

1144
01:02:45.239 --> 01:02:48.960
<v Speaker 1>of September. Bonnie and I will be will be signing

1145
01:02:49.039 --> 01:02:53.000
<v Speaker 1>tons of books okay or for distribution but also for

1146
01:02:53.079 --> 01:02:54.840
<v Speaker 1>sale to the events.

1147
01:02:54.599 --> 01:02:57.920
<v Speaker 2>And Roughtrade dot com people can go to yep.

1148
01:02:58.079 --> 01:03:01.199
<v Speaker 1>Yes, obviously won't have the books until September the tenth.

1149
01:03:01.480 --> 01:03:04.119
<v Speaker 1>By then I'll already be there and we'll signed tons

1150
01:03:04.119 --> 01:03:05.119
<v Speaker 1>of books, all right?

1151
01:03:05.159 --> 01:03:07.719
<v Speaker 2>And John, where can people find you and also your

1152
01:03:07.760 --> 01:03:09.960
<v Speaker 2>other books? Is Amazon? The best place? Do you have

1153
01:03:09.960 --> 01:03:11.400
<v Speaker 2>a website? Yeah?

1154
01:03:11.440 --> 01:03:13.320
<v Speaker 1>Amazon is there and they have I mean some of

1155
01:03:13.400 --> 01:03:14.800
<v Speaker 1>my books are ound of print, because it's been like

1156
01:03:14.840 --> 01:03:16.760
<v Speaker 1>thirty years. But what amazes me is the Gene Clark

1157
01:03:16.760 --> 01:03:19.280
<v Speaker 1>book is still in print. My Desperado is the Roots

1158
01:03:19.280 --> 01:03:21.800
<v Speaker 1>of Country Rock book still in print. My Buffalo Springfield

1159
01:03:21.800 --> 01:03:24.039
<v Speaker 1>books still in print. And these books go back like

1160
01:03:24.079 --> 01:03:26.679
<v Speaker 1>thirty years. I have a Facebook site where I talk

1161
01:03:26.719 --> 01:03:32.039
<v Speaker 1>about music history every day. It's called John Anderson Remembers, Okay,

1162
01:03:32.960 --> 01:03:34.320
<v Speaker 1>and it's open anybody can come.

1163
01:03:34.519 --> 01:03:39.519
<v Speaker 2>But also on Amazon, is your Neil Young book still there?

1164
01:03:39.719 --> 01:03:40.800
<v Speaker 2>You have a Neil Young book?

1165
01:03:41.159 --> 01:03:46.599
<v Speaker 1>Yes, okay, it's it's called Neil Young Don't be Denied

1166
01:03:46.840 --> 01:03:49.440
<v Speaker 1>the Canadian Years, and it's all about his time in Winnipeg.

1167
01:03:49.519 --> 01:03:51.440
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you've got to start here and then in

1168
01:03:51.519 --> 01:03:54.199
<v Speaker 1>thunder Bay and in Toronto, and then when it kind

1169
01:03:54.199 --> 01:03:57.280
<v Speaker 1>of ends when he heads off to California. But it's

1170
01:03:57.679 --> 01:04:00.159
<v Speaker 1>I remember saying to Neil, I said, you know, now,

1171
01:04:00.960 --> 01:04:03.599
<v Speaker 1>how come there's never been anything written about your early years,

1172
01:04:03.679 --> 01:04:06.159
<v Speaker 1>you know, in Winnipeg. And he said, because no one's

1173
01:04:06.159 --> 01:04:09.599
<v Speaker 1>ever asked me. He said, well, I'm asking. And he

1174
01:04:09.639 --> 01:04:12.000
<v Speaker 1>invited me down to his ranch and we spent some

1175
01:04:12.239 --> 01:04:14.559
<v Speaker 1>great deal of time just sitting around, and I had

1176
01:04:14.639 --> 01:04:17.480
<v Speaker 1>him just in stitches, remembering some of these stories and

1177
01:04:17.559 --> 01:04:21.519
<v Speaker 1>things about him. You know, it's funny. No one ever

1178
01:04:21.519 --> 01:04:23.840
<v Speaker 1>thought he would make it. I mean, yeah, you talk

1179
01:04:23.880 --> 01:04:25.480
<v Speaker 1>to people that he's Oh I knew he was going

1180
01:04:25.519 --> 01:04:25.920
<v Speaker 1>to be big.

1181
01:04:26.039 --> 01:04:26.840
<v Speaker 2>No, you didn't.

1182
01:04:27.480 --> 01:04:28.800
<v Speaker 1>No one ever thought he was going to make He

1183
01:04:28.840 --> 01:04:31.400
<v Speaker 1>had a weird voice, thin and really kind of a voice.

1184
01:04:31.920 --> 01:04:35.239
<v Speaker 1>He was kind of an awkward looking guy. But he

1185
01:04:35.360 --> 01:04:38.360
<v Speaker 1>stuck to it. I mean, he really followed that dream.

1186
01:04:38.400 --> 01:04:40.840
<v Speaker 1>And he said to me, you know, I had to

1187
01:04:40.920 --> 01:04:42.679
<v Speaker 1>leave a lot of friends behind because I was so

1188
01:04:42.760 --> 01:04:45.840
<v Speaker 1>focused on music. That's the only thing that mattered, you know.

1189
01:04:46.199 --> 01:04:48.519
<v Speaker 1>And if you weren't supporting of what I'm doing, or

1190
01:04:48.559 --> 01:04:50.400
<v Speaker 1>if you didn't want to do what I want to do,

1191
01:04:50.960 --> 01:04:53.239
<v Speaker 1>well I'd leave you behind. And that really is what

1192
01:04:53.360 --> 01:04:56.559
<v Speaker 1>his career is all about. Since playing in his first

1193
01:04:56.559 --> 01:04:59.280
<v Speaker 1>Band's in Winnipeg in nineteen sixty one, Neil has always

1194
01:04:59.320 --> 01:05:02.519
<v Speaker 1>been the boss. Yes, it's his way or the highway.

1195
01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:05.079
<v Speaker 1>And you know, when he's been in like Christby Stills,

1196
01:05:05.119 --> 01:05:07.039
<v Speaker 1>the Ash, he's in, he's out, he's in, he's out,

1197
01:05:07.119 --> 01:05:11.280
<v Speaker 1>Buffalo Springfield, he quit three times because he wanted to

1198
01:05:11.320 --> 01:05:13.519
<v Speaker 1>be the boss. I also wrote the biography of the

1199
01:05:13.519 --> 01:05:15.679
<v Speaker 1>Buffalo Springfield too, and I wrote it with Richie Fray,

1200
01:05:16.199 --> 01:05:17.719
<v Speaker 1>who was you know, he was kind of the in

1201
01:05:17.760 --> 01:05:19.840
<v Speaker 1>the middle between Stills and young people.

1202
01:05:19.880 --> 01:05:22.159
<v Speaker 2>Go to Amazon dot com. I'll put a link to

1203
01:05:22.280 --> 01:05:24.599
<v Speaker 2>your Amazon page so people can check out all of

1204
01:05:24.639 --> 01:05:28.159
<v Speaker 2>the books that you got there. John Inerson, thank you

1205
01:05:28.199 --> 01:05:30.079
<v Speaker 2>so much, man. This is awesome to have you on.

1206
01:05:30.119 --> 01:05:31.320
<v Speaker 2>I have a feeling I'm going to have you back

1207
01:05:31.360 --> 01:05:33.599
<v Speaker 2>on again. You've got quite a few books here. I'd

1208
01:05:33.639 --> 01:05:34.440
<v Speaker 2>love to talk about.

1209
01:05:35.159 --> 01:05:37.199
<v Speaker 1>Eric. This was a treat because it's always lovely to

1210
01:05:37.239 --> 01:05:40.760
<v Speaker 1>talk to someone who knows what they're talking about.

1211
01:05:40.199 --> 01:05:44.840
<v Speaker 2>And loves loves the topic. Because you were saying you

1212
01:05:44.840 --> 01:05:46.880
<v Speaker 2>weren't sure if this was something that you know, I'd

1213
01:05:46.920 --> 01:05:49.480
<v Speaker 2>be interested. I'm like, are you kidding me? I love this?

1214
01:05:49.480 --> 01:05:51.360
<v Speaker 2>This is this is right down my alley.

1215
01:05:51.400 --> 01:05:54.000
<v Speaker 1>Man, I've got you here. This this this book here.

1216
01:05:54.400 --> 01:05:56.599
<v Speaker 1>I know if it's showing it backwards. And this book

1217
01:05:56.639 --> 01:06:00.280
<v Speaker 1>came out here. It's called From Barnaby Wild to Dased

1218
01:06:00.280 --> 01:06:03.119
<v Speaker 1>and Confused Rock Music Revolution of nineteen sixty eight. The

1219
01:06:03.159 --> 01:06:05.199
<v Speaker 1>premise of the book is why did rock change in

1220
01:06:05.239 --> 01:06:08.280
<v Speaker 1>sixty eight to a harder rock sound? And that harder

1221
01:06:08.400 --> 01:06:10.480
<v Speaker 1>rock sound would become the basis of what today we

1222
01:06:10.559 --> 01:06:13.880
<v Speaker 1>call classic rock, and how did that happen from psychedelic

1223
01:06:13.960 --> 01:06:17.519
<v Speaker 1>music before it, and who are the driving forces of

1224
01:06:17.559 --> 01:06:20.480
<v Speaker 1>creating this hard rock sound that we know today's classic rock.

1225
01:06:20.679 --> 01:06:22.119
<v Speaker 1>That's that's I've been still there.

1226
01:06:22.639 --> 01:06:25.719
<v Speaker 2>Cool, Thanks so much, John, my pleasure, take care.

1227
01:06:33.800 --> 01:06:35.840
<v Speaker 1>That's it. It's in the books.