WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:09.839 Hello, everybody, Welcome to another exciting ever episode of javascripts Jabber. 2 00:00:09.880 --> 00:00:11.880 I am Steve Edwards, the host with the face for 3 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:13.800 radio as you can see in the voice for being 4 00:00:13.800 --> 00:00:17.519 a mine, but I'm still your host with me Today 5 00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:20.000 on the panel, we have mister Dan Shapiro coming live 6 00:00:20.039 --> 00:00:22.359 from tell Abev, Israel. How you doing, Dan, But well. 7 00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:24.839 You know it's hot here as surprise, surprise. 8 00:00:25.559 --> 00:00:27.719 Yeah, we're going back and forth here. It was pretty 9 00:00:27.719 --> 00:00:29.600 warm last couple weeks and now it's a little cool 10 00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:32.600 and cloudy and it's gonna be pretty mellow, so pretty nice. 11 00:00:32.759 --> 00:00:35.039 As we're getting to the end of August, I'm going 12 00:00:35.079 --> 00:00:39.240 to let Dan introduce our special returning guests, So go for. 13 00:00:39.240 --> 00:00:39.560 It, Dan. 14 00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:43.719 Yeah. So I'm really excited about today's guests. We have 15 00:00:43.799 --> 00:00:47.560 two of them, which means it's double the pleasure, and 16 00:00:47.640 --> 00:00:50.359 they are both a living testament to the fact that 17 00:00:50.679 --> 00:00:53.799 you don't need to work at Google or at Meta 18 00:00:53.960 --> 00:00:56.359 or at some other fang in order to make a 19 00:00:56.479 --> 00:01:01.119 huge impact on web development. So we have Ryan Carneato 20 00:01:01.719 --> 00:01:05.040 and we have Tanner Lindsley. Hi, guys, want to introduce 21 00:01:05.079 --> 00:01:08.359 yourselves in case somebody somehow doesn't know who you. 22 00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:12.560 Are Oh sorry, I hit the plauser. Okay, I got 23 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:15.319 to get that crowd to control themselves. Lots of fun. 24 00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:20.200 Yeah, I'm Brian Carneado, probably most known for creating solid 25 00:01:20.239 --> 00:01:24.400 Jazz and my work on Signals CEO of Signals and Tanner. 26 00:01:25.079 --> 00:01:26.400 I'm the tan Stack guy. 27 00:01:26.680 --> 00:01:29.480 And for those who don't happen to know, Tanstack is 28 00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:32.519 also where react query came from. 29 00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:37.280 Now tanstack query right, React Query I even I still 30 00:01:37.319 --> 00:01:38.760 call it that, which is fine. 31 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:42.879 And also lots of other great tools. You've recently introduced 32 00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:43.319 a couple. 33 00:01:43.519 --> 00:01:48.560 Yeah, we we have just a couple. We're working on 34 00:01:48.599 --> 00:01:52.879 a new framework inspired by solid Start called tan sax Start. 35 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:57.959 We have a router. We have a new library called pacer, 36 00:01:58.120 --> 00:02:03.599 which is about like debound throttling, ate leming stuff. We 37 00:02:03.640 --> 00:02:09.719 have the controversial name tan stack dB, which is a 38 00:02:09.800 --> 00:02:13.840 reactive client store. I mean it's a database, but it's 39 00:02:13.879 --> 00:02:15.639 only for like the client on the front end. It's 40 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:20.520 pretty sweet, guys, except that it isn't right. Yeah, it's 41 00:02:21.319 --> 00:02:24.319 it's an awesome library. That's all you need to know. Uh. 42 00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:28.879 And we've got like table and form as well virtual 43 00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:33.120 h We've got a couple. We're even working on something 44 00:02:33.159 --> 00:02:36.319 called tan Sak dev tools right now, which is oh 45 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:37.520 yeah about that. 46 00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:39.879 We will have to bring either you or somebody else 47 00:02:39.919 --> 00:02:41.960 on the team on to talk about that when you're 48 00:02:41.960 --> 00:02:44.759 different than you guys already h and I have to 49 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:51.520 also mention create tense ten stack start or whatever Jack 50 00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:53.199 these days. 51 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:55.800 Whatever we're going gonna call it, and it might even 52 00:02:55.840 --> 00:02:58.919 just be called create tan Stacking like that. 53 00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:01.159 For those of you don't know that is. We actually 54 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:03.680 had Jack Harrington on the show to talk about it. 55 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:07.879 It's an awesome replacement for create react at least. 56 00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:10.159 Yeah, we have some fun plans for it. 57 00:03:10.280 --> 00:03:13.240 So it's Tanstack Ranger. I'm looking at a last. 58 00:03:13.560 --> 00:03:19.439 Ranger is kind of a throwback to my old open 59 00:03:19.439 --> 00:03:21.960 source days. It's it's I needed a library to do 60 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:28.199 multi range inputs, so like sliders with multiple handles. I 61 00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:32.560 made a headless version of it. I called it Ranger, 62 00:03:33.560 --> 00:03:34.360 which is kind of fun. 63 00:03:34.639 --> 00:03:37.759 See I'm thinking like Park Ranger and uh, you know 64 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:40.759 Jellystone Park and I remember that. 65 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:47.599 Yeah, it's probably it's it's the most niche library that 66 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:50.639 we have, which it's cool. I still use it every 67 00:03:50.639 --> 00:03:51.120 now and then. 68 00:03:51.879 --> 00:03:54.120 And one more thing about you, Tanner, correct me if 69 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:58.080 I'm wrong, but you're now you've transitioned to work full 70 00:03:58.159 --> 00:04:00.159 time on your open source staf. 71 00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:02.879 Right, yeah, about a year and a half ago. 72 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:08.039 That is awesome. So basically you're the guy not making 73 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:09.800 a living, so the rest of us can. 74 00:04:10.039 --> 00:04:15.719 I mean as of nine months ago, I'm making a 75 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:16.439 good living now. 76 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:19.399 So yeah, so what is your business model for that? 77 00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:25.480 Then? Well, it's it's different than most others, I think, 78 00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:31.680 so I abhor VC around oss. I've done venture capital 79 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:37.040 for my last company, and I've also bootstrapped plenty of things. 80 00:04:37.839 --> 00:04:39.600 I didn't want to do that for tanse Dec. So 81 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:45.199 Tensex basically run like a media company right now, as 82 00:04:45.240 --> 00:04:51.040 like a business side of things, so marketing, advertising, partnership, 83 00:04:51.160 --> 00:04:55.439 brand deals and the like. And that's how tanse Dec 84 00:04:56.000 --> 00:05:01.720 is making money and paying both me and also now 85 00:05:01.800 --> 00:05:05.600 contributing a lot towards contributors as well, and that's just 86 00:05:05.600 --> 00:05:07.959 going to grow over time hopefully. 87 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:12.319 Does that mean running ads within your website, within your 88 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:14.680 products or something else? 89 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:18.759 Yeah, So tan stack dot com is the revenue generator 90 00:05:19.480 --> 00:05:25.160 and the libraries are just guests on the tan stack 91 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:28.879 dot com show every day. 92 00:05:28.519 --> 00:05:32.279 That's interesting. Yeah, I'm really happy that it's working for you. 93 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:36.439 Yeah, it's working so far, so we'll we'll see. I 94 00:05:36.439 --> 00:05:40.839 don't know if it's scalable or not, but it works 95 00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:43.240 for me, and I think that's that's good enough for now. 96 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:46.680 And how about you, Ryan, how are things with you? 97 00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:47.160 Pretty good? 98 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:52.279 I've been at Century now for almost a year, so okay, Yeah, 99 00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:54.959 like this week coming up marks a year Century So 100 00:05:55.800 --> 00:06:00.360 they've been great, been able to obviously support my U, 101 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:02.240 R and D. I've been doing a lot this year 102 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:05.759 because I've been working a lot of new areas kind 103 00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:10.720 of for upcoming releases of Solid and and they've been 104 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:12.879 supporting lots of other ways. I've been getting closer with 105 00:06:12.920 --> 00:06:14.319 the syntax FM guys. 106 00:06:15.160 --> 00:06:16.600 I was gonna ask if you worked with them. 107 00:06:17.079 --> 00:06:20.040 Yeah, So we've been talking about how to up my 108 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:24.199 game on video content and different kinds of media stuff 109 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:25.399 like better promotion. 110 00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:28.720 So I'm guessing they told you you need to make 111 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:29.879 longer videos. 112 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:33.759 Yeah, that's funny, No, they were. 113 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:36.199 Everyone's been really stoked on those shorter videos that I've 114 00:06:36.199 --> 00:06:38.399 been doing recently. They said they were like a little crunched, 115 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:42.560 could do some more production value, but generally speaking, I 116 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:46.439 usually stream for like five hours ish you know, maybe 117 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:49.920 every other Friday or so. And I started in the 118 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:53.120 last couple of months doing like ten minute videos, and 119 00:06:53.639 --> 00:06:55.319 for me, doing ten minute videos very hard. 120 00:06:55.319 --> 00:06:56.079 It's condensed. 121 00:06:56.120 --> 00:07:00.959 It's like because I picked really deep topics, but I 122 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:03.079 just needed a place to point people too. When people 123 00:07:03.079 --> 00:07:05.600 are like, you know, signals, blah blah blah blah blah, 124 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:07.360 you know, like complains. You know, I'm a React developer. 125 00:07:07.399 --> 00:07:09.120 I don't get why they important. It's just like, okay, well, 126 00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:11.759 can I make an FAQ basically as a video. And 127 00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:15.120 that's sort of what I've been trying to do. Find 128 00:07:15.160 --> 00:07:18.079 content that's sure enough that people will not like bulk 129 00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:22.360 looking at the whole length of the video, but then 130 00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:26.600 still get a lot of unique content in there. It's 131 00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:29.879 difficult because my expertise is I said, very very deep. 132 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:33.759 You don't really find content like I do in most 133 00:07:34.040 --> 00:07:36.240 video content. Like you guys sometimes get really deep on 134 00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:38.519 your podcast, which is why I love this podcast. But 135 00:07:38.600 --> 00:07:42.079 a lot of video content isn't the same sort of thing. 136 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:44.199 You know, it's either like how do you do this? 137 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:49.720 Or it's like the most beginner intro level of stuff. 138 00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:52.759 So being able to ask the whys, I think is 139 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:55.120 really really important and like looking at the design stuff. 140 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:57.480 So I'm going to try and bridge that gap, you know, 141 00:07:57.519 --> 00:08:00.920 maybe pick smaller topics that I can actually talk about, 142 00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:02.879 you know, in seven to ten minutes. 143 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:06.160 So you kind of remind me of that. I think 144 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:08.759 it's Mark Twain who said I didn't have the time 145 00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:11.800 to write your long letters short letters, so I wrote 146 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:15.199 you a long one. So yeah, it's exactly much much 147 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:19.800 more challenging to create short and concise and to the 148 00:08:19.879 --> 00:08:20.759 point content. 149 00:08:21.319 --> 00:08:23.959 Yeah, especially if you spend all your time like like 150 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:27.759 really like like just kind of exploring ideas and stuff, 151 00:08:27.800 --> 00:08:30.279 you know, and taking stuff which way to actually come 152 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:32.879 up to a consolidated messages way more work. I can 153 00:08:32.879 --> 00:08:35.120 stream for five hours, but then I'm like mostly done. 154 00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:38.080 The video is going to take me at least two 155 00:08:38.200 --> 00:08:40.000 or three days. 156 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:43.559 You know, that's for sure. Well, let's put it this way. 157 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:45.519 I think that once you get the hang of it, 158 00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:48.759 you'll be able to do it much more effectively. Maybe 159 00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:50.840 you should also consult about it with THEO. 160 00:08:51.320 --> 00:08:51.519 Yeah. 161 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:56.279 Yeah, he's been waiting for me to like level up that. 162 00:08:56.559 --> 00:08:58.200 He was like, yeah, I just keep on doing what 163 00:08:58.240 --> 00:08:59.960 you're doing, but when it's time come see me you know, 164 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:02.799 like better gear, better stuff, you know. 165 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:06.399 So yeah, yeah, I did one video for for you 166 00:09:06.639 --> 00:09:11.759 Mastery a couple of years ago, And the amount of 167 00:09:11.799 --> 00:09:14.399 work it takes to get to just to put together 168 00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:18.519 simple videos is crazy. Whether it's recording, I would assume 169 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:20.879 that once you get your setup in place, you know, 170 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:23.799 your your software and your different artwork components and your 171 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:25.519 speakers and all that stuff, and you know what you're doing, 172 00:09:25.559 --> 00:09:29.000 it's probably a lot quicker. But that's that's got to 173 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:31.120 be a learning curve just in getting set up to 174 00:09:31.159 --> 00:09:32.879 do video production like that. 175 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:36.840 Yeah, and I like editing stuff in I'm a big 176 00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:39.960 fan of fireship videos and even my articles are like that. 177 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:42.759 I've always done a lot of meme pictures and like 178 00:09:42.759 --> 00:09:45.879 like images to back up what I'm saying, Yes, can 179 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:47.679 I keep it going? Even my conference talks are like 180 00:09:47.720 --> 00:09:50.320 that too. So I find the video editing actuallyising a 181 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:52.039 long time because I need to find just the perfect 182 00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:57.000 clip or the perfect like image to kind of overlay 183 00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:01.000 the different parts. So like it's like it's almost on 184 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:04.519 like a twenty second cadence, so like it's you know, 185 00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:05.679 twenty minute video. 186 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:07.159 You know, that's a lot of clips. 187 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:09.399 Well, just let AI do it for you. 188 00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:11.799 Well, you know, I have the same struggle with always 189 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:14.120 trying to find a perfect dad joke to publish on 190 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:15.960 a daily basis and to throw in here and there 191 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:18.279 so I can somewhat they all perfect. 192 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:19.639 Stage, they're all perfect. 193 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:21.840 Oh boy, I got to tell you some stories about 194 00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:24.919 how they're not always, but that's a topic for another time. 195 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:28.039 Yeah, I think we need to finally get to the 196 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:30.919 to the crux to the main issue. 197 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:33.080 We had a topic for today, any topic that we're 198 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:34.639 here to discuss, gotcha. 199 00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:39.320 So again, I'll give a brief background. A while back, 200 00:10:39.399 --> 00:10:43.519 I had this idea of le let's go even further back. 201 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:49.000 I started noticing a certain pattern that was occurring in 202 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:53.440 a lot of frameworks, especially as they were becoming meta frameworks, 203 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:56.480 and that's kind of and I termed it to come 204 00:10:56.480 --> 00:10:59.919 back of RPC, and we'll talk about what RPC is 205 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:04.799 and why it's making this comeback now. But when I 206 00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:07.559 noticed that, it occurred to me that this could be 207 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:11.039 an interesting topic for a conference talk, which I created 208 00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:15.120 and already gave once at JS Heroes in Romania. But 209 00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:17.679 I reached out to a lot of my friends, people 210 00:11:17.799 --> 00:11:24.240 like Ryan, like Tanner, like Rich Harris and others, and 211 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:28.720 started in Jack Harrington, whom we mentioned, and started talking 212 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:33.080 with them about this whole thing, and I realized that 213 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:36.840 a lot of them had very different viewpoints about what 214 00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:40.559 our PC is, how it should or should not be used, 215 00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:46.559 why it's interesting or maybe not. And what this ended 216 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:50.799 up is this conversation here. I basically asked both Ryan 217 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:53.519 and Tanner if they'd like to come on the show 218 00:11:53.960 --> 00:11:57.639 and talk about this, so, you know, take it away, guys. 219 00:11:57.919 --> 00:12:02.440 Yeah, I start because I feel like this starts with 220 00:12:03.240 --> 00:12:06.759 stuff that I was doing. But to be fair, this 221 00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:08.879 is stuff that Tenor definitely relates to right off the bat, 222 00:12:08.919 --> 00:12:11.360 because the first thing you hit when you're writing a 223 00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:14.759 meta framework, like the most obvious thing is actually meta 224 00:12:14.759 --> 00:12:18.759 frameworks are centered around routing, right and the router And 225 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:21.360 I know this has nothing to do with RPC right 226 00:12:21.399 --> 00:12:22.320 off the bat, but like. 227 00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:26.279 Maybe we should define our PC before we dive into it. 228 00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:31.879 Yeah, okay, sure, A remote procedure call basically this idea 229 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:34.639 that you can in different environments call a function from 230 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:35.559 the other environment. 231 00:12:36.039 --> 00:12:38.320 Because I thought it was really popular comedy for a moment, 232 00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:38.960 glad read. 233 00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:44.240 I like to use a slightly different definition the way 234 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:49.600 that I like to define it is basically as a 235 00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:55.120 method for invoking a service or obtaining data from another process, 236 00:12:55.559 --> 00:12:59.679 even on another computer across the network, using a function 237 00:12:59.799 --> 00:13:04.679 call paradigm. Are you okay with this definition? Yes, So 238 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:07.440 it's basically it looks like a function call. It feels 239 00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:10.600 like a function call. You. It's as easy to use 240 00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:13.360 as a natural to use as a function call, but 241 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:17.320 instead of just actually being a function call, it translates 242 00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:18.960 to an operation across the net. 243 00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:19.360 Yeah. 244 00:13:19.799 --> 00:13:22.039 The funniest thing is, like my first introduction to rpcs 245 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:24.759 didn't feel as easy or natural to use as function calls. 246 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:26.360 I was using a. 247 00:13:26.519 --> 00:13:31.799 Like soap in Microsoft stuff back in the early two thousands, 248 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:34.840 And if anyone's us that it's like all XML based 249 00:13:34.919 --> 00:13:38.960 and they call they get categorized under RPC. But that 250 00:13:39.080 --> 00:13:42.679 like in my head when someone says RPC to me, traditionally, 251 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:44.600 that's what I thought of. I thought of these like 252 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:49.960 XML end points from like Microsoft Server from like two 253 00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:52.799 thousand and two. 254 00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:53.399 Memories. 255 00:13:53.720 --> 00:13:56.159 Yeah, I'm a bit of a history buff. I'm a 256 00:13:56.159 --> 00:14:00.440 bit of a history buff. So it's interesting because it 257 00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:04.159 was that period in time where RPC was effectively dying 258 00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:07.960 so our PC was really RPC. The term was coined 259 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:11.960 in the eighties. It became really popular in the nineties 260 00:14:12.120 --> 00:14:17.720 with the native platforms for it like Corba or Dcom 261 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:22.399 from Microsoft, and then the Web happened, which kind of 262 00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:27.039 killed it. Soap was an attempt to somehow continue to 263 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:30.879 do RPC despite the Web, and we can talk about 264 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:33.559 why the web killed RPC for a while at least, 265 00:14:34.279 --> 00:14:37.240 and now it's making a comeback in a much more 266 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:40.600 natural way, which is in a lot of ways very 267 00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:45.159 reminiscent of how it was in the nineties, but compatible 268 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:48.200 with the modern technologies that we use nowadays. 269 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:51.600 Right, Yeah, yeah, I mean that sounds about right, Like 270 00:14:51.679 --> 00:14:55.039 no one was touching RPC after that early mid two 271 00:14:55.080 --> 00:14:58.840 thousands period until maybe like twenty twenty. 272 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:03.720 Is they're like in the web technology, But. 273 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:09.039 I mean yes, obviously, when we start designing these surver 274 00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:14.080 rendered meta frameworks where we actually have the server and 275 00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:18.240 the client being developed in the same place, you start 276 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:21.080 going like, well, if I control both sides, why not 277 00:15:21.159 --> 00:15:22.600 like make that pipe easier. 278 00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:24.840 But I mean that was the motivation. 279 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:28.080 The thing for me personally when I started looking at 280 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:31.039 this stuff was I wasn't I was aware of this 281 00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:34.039 the soap stuff you know and that, But I was 282 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:36.679 just trying to like I was looking at other meta frameworks, 283 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:38.759 was this is the beginning of all start Like twenty 284 00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:41.159 twenty one is actually before I even really sold at 285 00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:42.799 one point zero, And I was like looking at other 286 00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:45.879 meta frameworks a bit, and I was looking like next 287 00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:50.879 JS and and mostly and like you know sapper from 288 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:55.720 and like next and they all had these like API 289 00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:58.000 end points, like like where you'd like do this file 290 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:03.639 based routing system with apien points. And the thing that 291 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:04.919 was weird for me is I used to be a 292 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:07.759 real guy for a bit, so like you would define 293 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:11.360 like like in the file system, you'd define I guess 294 00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:13.120 not a file system was an auto madeive. 295 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:13.639 Filesism, but whatever. 296 00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:17.519 You you skelton out these like models essentially and API 297 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:20.279 n points and they would describe the whole collection of 298 00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:24.080 the whole model of things, and the filesystem approached a 299 00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:26.600 lot of these APIs had taken was kind of it 300 00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:30.120 felt weird to me because you'd have like a different 301 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:35.120 file for like the general like groups versus like group 302 00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:37.279 I D like you didn't put all the crowd commands 303 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:41.120 together like it would like separate based on the URL path, 304 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:45.039 not based on the conceptual model, if that makes any sense, 305 00:16:45.039 --> 00:16:47.480 Like instead of being talking about groups as a single thing, 306 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:50.559 you would have like groups and groups slash. 307 00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:52.639 I d like it's a funny thing. 308 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:54.960 But I was looking at these API shapes and I 309 00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:56.799 was like, this is such a hassle to like every 310 00:16:56.840 --> 00:16:59.080 time I do this to build out these files. 311 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:03.919 I saw Remix. I think this was for me. 312 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:07.680 They did their big reveal in spring twenty twenty one, 313 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:10.960 and I know this, and when I saw their loaders 314 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:13.079 and actions and the way that they doubled it up 315 00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:15.200 on the API side, I'm like, this is kind of nice. 316 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:19.599 It's like turned into a single approach, because what was 317 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:22.039 kind of awkward was that people would build their app 318 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:23.960 in one folder and then they'd build their API and 319 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:26.200 another folder, and it was getting kind of clunky. You 320 00:17:26.359 --> 00:17:28.839 do everything twice, kind of connecting it up. And they 321 00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:30.480 were like, no, you can just kind of stick it 322 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:32.799 all in the same place, follow the same kind of pattern. 323 00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:35.799 The challenge I had Remix is because I've been working 324 00:17:35.799 --> 00:17:39.880 on routing for a while and nested routing and with 325 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:43.279 you know, parallel data fetching and all these things. Is 326 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:47.519 the remix loader basically said that this part of the 327 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:51.880 UL loads this data, and that wasn't granular enough for me. 328 00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:54.039 I was working a solid gazz which is based on singles. 329 00:17:54.039 --> 00:17:57.519 So as you can imagine, there's multiple different data sources. 330 00:17:57.519 --> 00:17:59.839 You want them to update independently, right, you want to 331 00:17:59.839 --> 00:18:03.039 be to refresh them independently. You only want to update 332 00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:05.279 certain parts of the page. Treating the whole page like 333 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:09.680 it was like a single data flow was not particularly 334 00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:12.920 nice for me. So I was like, okay, can I 335 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:16.759 take my kind of like route loaders, which are they're 336 00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:19.319 not really loaders, they're isomorphic. They run on both sides, 337 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:23.440 these kind of nested rout kind of areas where you 338 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:26.359 can fetch data and instead of you know, hitting API 339 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:28.759 calls like we used to, instead of using one single loader, 340 00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:32.480 can we make it more ergonomic to define individual pieces 341 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:35.759 of data you can fetch. And I was looking when 342 00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:37.200 I was doing the client side, and I'm like, I 343 00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:39.920 love this. You know I can put you know, you know, 344 00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:42.079 solid query. This is like a ten I rack in 345 00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:44.079 the conversation for a second, but like I can put 346 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:47.519 like my different data fetching things inside this loading and 347 00:18:47.559 --> 00:18:49.799 I can manage them separately. If I'm on this page, 348 00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:53.000 can I can grab users and their posts and have 349 00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:57.519 multiple things and call them and invalidate them separately. And 350 00:18:57.559 --> 00:19:00.160 I'm like, this is a great pattern. It works on 351 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:03.200 the server, works on the client. The only problem is 352 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:06.240 you have to call these extra API in points. So 353 00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:10.319 I started working on a solution, which was, what if 354 00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:13.079 I could use the file system in a nicer way, 355 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:15.599 like better than the API in points, where instead of 356 00:19:15.799 --> 00:19:18.400 being quite as bulky and like having these URLs, I 357 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:21.240 could use like a proxy or something like where you 358 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:24.359 could maybe make some types for an object, and based 359 00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:26.519 on what path you go through the object, it would 360 00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:28.960 construct the URL on the client and then know what 361 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:32.039 endpoint to hit on the server. And I kind of 362 00:19:32.079 --> 00:19:35.200 put this together and I call them actions after remixes actions. 363 00:19:35.240 --> 00:19:39.079 And the difference is they weren't really exactly actions, or 364 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:41.000 they were both actions and loaders. You could basically hit 365 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:43.640 these URLs both on data fetching and on mutation, and 366 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:47.559 you could call them They're just like autogeneratid APIs. And 367 00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:50.799 I remember I put that out around April. I made 368 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:53.759 some demos around April twenty twenty one, but then Solid 369 00:19:53.799 --> 00:19:55.279 one point zero needed to get released, and I put 370 00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:59.559 it aside, and I basically was like showing people and 371 00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:01.920 talk like how cool this was going to be, but 372 00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:04.240 you know, people just like, oh, yeah, yeah, whatever, Ryan, 373 00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:07.720 and and then and then it was almost a year later. 374 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:10.759 It could be fair half of us don't know, don't 375 00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:13.680 often don't understand what you're talking about, so. 376 00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:17.079 That that's that's perfectly fair. But some people did. 377 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:20.480 And I was talking to someone in December or like 378 00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:22.680 around Christmas time, and they're like, oh, isn't that what 379 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:26.920 blitz JS is. I'm like, Blitz, isn't that next JSS thing? 380 00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:29.440 And I look at it, and sure enough, that is 381 00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:33.400 actually what blitz was. I basically independently also came up 382 00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:34.960 something similar to what Blitz was. 383 00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:37.440 Which is blitz what is it? 384 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:37.720 It was? 385 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:40.799 It was it was kind of like a meta framework 386 00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:43.960 on top of Next. I thought it was like Redwood, 387 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:46.119 like it was one of those more opinionated meta frameworks 388 00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:49.200 on top of Next. But eventually they just became like 389 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:53.079 a Next plug in and kind of downscaled it because 390 00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:54.799 but originally it was like a separate product, like you 391 00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:58.839 when installed Next, you install Blitz, and it was it 392 00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:02.200 was a React meta frame essentially. But it's cool feature 393 00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:06.759 was that it had these basically kind of generated API 394 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:09.839 functions in the same kind of way that I was describing, 395 00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:16.279 where you could just kind of put these basically API 396 00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:18.720 call things in a file folder structure and then call 397 00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:21.519 them directly without like the fetch and the ceremony around 398 00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:23.720 like that. You could just call them basically it's functions 399 00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:26.880 via like a proxy like I was talking about, because 400 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:30.279 the cool thing that the proxy approaches you can have 401 00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:32.519