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<v Speaker 1>Welcome once again to another exciting episode of The Oath

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<v Speaker 1>and the Office, inspired by Odysseus. I'm John Fiegele saying,

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<v Speaker 1>joined by the great Professor and the author of The

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<v Speaker 1>Oath in the Office, Corey Britschneider. Corey, good to see

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<v Speaker 1>you again, my highly rated friend.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks so much, and what a pleasure to do this

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<v Speaker 2>with you. I did actually see the Odyssey, so we

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<v Speaker 2>maybe have to sneak some of that in there.

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<v Speaker 1>I saw an IMAX last night in Englewood.

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<v Speaker 3>Baby.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, I didn't get imax.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, Oh, you gotta go see it again. Now, you

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<v Speaker 1>gotta go. That's why they make movies to see that

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<v Speaker 1>in imax.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh. We have an amazing show, you know, our own

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<v Speaker 2>odyssey against Donald Trump, and we'll talk about the details

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<v Speaker 2>what's happening. And then also I just want a preview.

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<v Speaker 2>I pre recorded a conversation with Sky Perryman, who is

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<v Speaker 2>the CEO of Democracy Forward, and like the ACLU, they

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<v Speaker 2>are really at the forefront of the fight to save

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<v Speaker 2>our democracy. And we talk about, for instance, their work

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<v Speaker 2>in actually succeeding in stopping this slush fund to fund

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<v Speaker 2>Donald Trump's allies and to go after his opponents they

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<v Speaker 2>were instrumental too and stopping this phony deal with the Irs.

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<v Speaker 2>And we talk about, you know, the role of citizens

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<v Speaker 2>and fighting back and how we can actually do it.

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<v Speaker 2>So we're going to talk as always about the threats

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<v Speaker 2>to democracy that we're facing now, this ridiculous speech that

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<v Speaker 2>Donald Trump gave that was a sort of speaking threat

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<v Speaker 2>to democracy, and then also how we fight back.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm a big fan of Skyperry Ben. She's done

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<v Speaker 1>my Serious ExM show many times, so I can't wait

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<v Speaker 1>for that. And I want to thank you, professor, for

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<v Speaker 1>being so flexible now that my Serious XM show has

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<v Speaker 1>moved back to the day times, which is where I

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<v Speaker 1>was when I first met you. But thank you for

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<v Speaker 1>those six plus years you did hard time with us

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<v Speaker 1>in late night. It's been a pleasure to talk about

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<v Speaker 1>this out with you in the daylight again. And I

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<v Speaker 1>have to begin by asking you about Donald Trump's hateful, mendacious,

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<v Speaker 1>and not entirely charismatic primetime address last week. I'm sure

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<v Speaker 1>you saw it, the state of denial address about the

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<v Speaker 1>desperate crisis of election integrity in America, but only when

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<v Speaker 1>he's in charge. I don't know if you caught that,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's never a problem. Our elections seemed to be

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<v Speaker 1>fine if it's Barack Obama or Joe Biden in charge.

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<v Speaker 1>But if Donald Trump's president and it's twenty twenty or

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty six, my god, it's so rife with corruption.

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<v Speaker 1>I guess he's saying democracy only breaks when Trump's holding

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<v Speaker 1>the keys, Corey. But he did this to revisit his

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<v Speaker 1>old grievances about the twenty twenty election while presenting newly

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<v Speaker 1>declassified documents that would prove that somehow China rigged it,

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<v Speaker 1>And they did the exact opposite. They actually showed that

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<v Speaker 1>Russia was colluding to try to overturn an election. But

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, where to begin From a constitutional perspective, Corey,

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<v Speaker 1>how unusual is it for a sitting president to use

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<v Speaker 1>the the institutional authority of the presidency to convene broadcast

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<v Speaker 1>networks and do a primetime address on our taxpayer funded

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<v Speaker 1>airwaves to relitigate a past election. We know why he's

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<v Speaker 1>really doing it, But we've never seen anything like this

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<v Speaker 1>theatrically in history, have we?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? You know, I'm usually looking for parallels and finding them,

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<v Speaker 2>and threats to democracy and things like shutting down the

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<v Speaker 2>opposition when it comes to free speech. We certainly have

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<v Speaker 2>seen that from past presidents, from John Adams and Wilson,

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<v Speaker 2>But have we ever seen a president use a national

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<v Speaker 2>broadcast to undermine confidence in the electoral system itself, at

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<v Speaker 2>least again, as you said, when it goes against him.

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<v Speaker 2>But yet still, and this is one of the bizarre

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<v Speaker 2>things about the speech, have confidence when it supports him.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, right, but you know, the just the bizarreness

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<v Speaker 2>of all this, I have to say, let me start

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<v Speaker 2>with the idea of the deep state. I mean, the

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<v Speaker 2>deep state actually goes back to skepticism about the CIA

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<v Speaker 2>and a lot of the secrecy that has existed in

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<v Speaker 2>the American presidency, especially in the twentieth century, external skeptics

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<v Speaker 2>coming in and saying, hey, there's something weird going on here.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's see behind the veil. What's so strange about this

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<v Speaker 2>is the rhetoric of the deep state, of people undermining

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<v Speaker 2>our elections from within or minimizing you know, foreign threats,

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<v Speaker 2>Like yeah, from within.

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<v Speaker 1>His own people, in his own He's literally talking about

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<v Speaker 1>the people he hired bringing him his daily briefings, that

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<v Speaker 1>it left stuff out and that like literally he wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>even trying. I expect much more from the evil mind

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<v Speaker 1>of Stephen Miller than this speech provise Cory, because I

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<v Speaker 1>mean the smoking gun came unloaded, it was all stuff

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<v Speaker 1>like that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, let me cite the unitary executive theories.

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<v Speaker 2>He has exerted enormous control now over the civil service,

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<v Speaker 2>and yet at the same time that he claims, well,

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<v Speaker 2>I have control over all of this, and is exerting

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<v Speaker 2>control still. He claims there's a secret cabal within the

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<v Speaker 2>government going after him. No, it's you. You are the cabal.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think what's really going on is you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's revealing of what the strategy is here. Yeah, frame

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<v Speaker 2>election interference. Well, who's doing the interference. It is Donald Trump.

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<v Speaker 2>He is trying to subvert votes, to undermine confidence in elections,

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<v Speaker 2>to get legislation thankfully that I think won't be passed past.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, there's so much going on behind the curtain.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the things, just to preview the discussion that

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<v Speaker 2>I recorded earlier with Sky Perryman that will hear later,

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<v Speaker 2>is one of the things that's great about democracy forward

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<v Speaker 2>is trying to pierce that veil of secrecy, and what

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<v Speaker 2>we see from Trump what he's already told us makes

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<v Speaker 2>us extremely suspicious of what's going on behind the scenes.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know what, those are documents, And thankfully, because

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<v Speaker 2>of the Foil Law and other ways of getting transparent access,

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<v Speaker 2>we consue to get access. So it's one of the

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<v Speaker 2>things we talk about.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, here's the thing. I mean, I guess declassified means stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>I really wish it actually happened, because there was nothing

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<v Speaker 1>there that he said was there. China did not manipulate

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<v Speaker 1>a single vote. He keeps on trying to overturn an

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<v Speaker 1>election that's like old enough to be in kindergarten, now,

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<v Speaker 1>you know. And it's easy and tempting to laugh at this,

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<v Speaker 1>but there is method to this batshit, as you say, professor,

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<v Speaker 1>And one of the central themes of the speech was

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<v Speaker 1>that Americans should doubt the integrity of previous elections, while

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<v Speaker 1>also urging Congress to pass sweeping new election legislation that

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<v Speaker 1>we don't actually need. There has never been a problem

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<v Speaker 1>with voter impersonation in this country. We don't need voter

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<v Speaker 1>ID laws. They solve no existing problems. But we know

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<v Speaker 1>what the Save Act is all about. The Save Act

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<v Speaker 1>is all about the fact that women have been voting

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<v Speaker 1>democratics since nineteen ninety two consistently, and that's got to stop.

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<v Speaker 1>And they think they found a way to reduce those

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<v Speaker 1>numbers for at least one or two elections. So is

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<v Speaker 1>there a constitution difference between advocating election reforms and using

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<v Speaker 1>presidential authority to undermine confidence and elections without ever giving

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<v Speaker 1>any evidence that voting systems or vote counts were actually compromised. Again,

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<v Speaker 1>he brought no evidence to justify these laws that are

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<v Speaker 1>designed for one thing, to make it harder for citizens

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<v Speaker 1>to exercise the right to vote.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right. Well, the speech was about was a smattering

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<v Speaker 2>of phrases, deep state, China all, you know, trying to

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<v Speaker 2>just prime these ideas. America has all these enemies that are.

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<v Speaker 1>Resulting in master greatest hits.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's greatest hits.

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<v Speaker 1>And then with trans children playing sports or hacking our

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<v Speaker 1>elections everything.

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<v Speaker 2>Wait, when you look at you know, the evidence of

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<v Speaker 2>voter fraud, even the Heritage's database of supposed voting instances

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<v Speaker 2>of voter fraud, you know you're talking about in the hundreds. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>this isn't even confirming their cases. Nothing that would ever

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<v Speaker 2>approximate making a difference in really any election that we've

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<v Speaker 2>been talking about, So you know there is no evidence

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<v Speaker 2>for this. Now you asked about, you know, the constitutional dangers,

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<v Speaker 2>but also the protections. Let me first say just to

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<v Speaker 2>reassure people what the protections are, and they are vast

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<v Speaker 2>our elections. Thankfully, it used to be that scholars and

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<v Speaker 2>politicians debated about whether or not we should have one

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<v Speaker 2>national system of elections to better protect it. That debate,

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<v Speaker 2>I think has been answered by Donald Trump, which is

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<v Speaker 2>a great thing that elections are controlled by local and

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<v Speaker 2>state government because he keeps him from doing what he

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<v Speaker 2>surely would do if there was national control or control

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<v Speaker 2>by the president or thankfully we haven't done this, but

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<v Speaker 2>if the Congress would have delegated the power to the president,

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<v Speaker 2>if any of that would have happened, he would have

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<v Speaker 2>swooped in and assuming that it stood court challenges, if

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<v Speaker 2>that was the system national elections, and he would have

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<v Speaker 2>stolen all the elections going forward. It would have been

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<v Speaker 2>a clear path to a clean coup. Now, the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that the elections are local keeps him from being able

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<v Speaker 2>to enact his will, so he's got to figure out

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<v Speaker 2>ways of shaving off votes, and the same act is

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<v Speaker 2>one attempt to do that, and we talked to Stacy

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<v Speaker 2>Abrams an amazing discussion. I urge listeners to go back

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<v Speaker 2>to that. You know, he's figured out every state in

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<v Speaker 2>locality requires some form of identification. But what Trump has

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<v Speaker 2>done is figured out the specific forms of identifications like

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<v Speaker 2>passports that people don't have right him, don't have so

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<v Speaker 2>that's all that.

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<v Speaker 1>That's yeah, and who doesn't have driver's licenses, College students,

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<v Speaker 1>especially college students in cities, and seniors and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, who's not going to have a photo IDA

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<v Speaker 1>people who are new citizens. I mean, it's just it's

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<v Speaker 1>all done to shave a little here, shave a little there.

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<v Speaker 1>This was a spray of sloppy lies spread by an

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<v Speaker 1>unpopular politician who was impeached twice for trying to cheat

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<v Speaker 1>in the twenty twenty election. Let's not for he was

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<v Speaker 1>impeached twice for trying to cheat in the same election

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<v Speaker 1>that he was talking about in a primetime speech six

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<v Speaker 1>years later, and he's been cheating in the twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 1>six election, Professor since early twenty twenty five, when he

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<v Speaker 1>demanded Texas have a mid decade Jerry Mander to dilute

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<v Speaker 1>the non white vote. So what was amazing to me

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<v Speaker 1>was the speech had zero mentions of Russian interference in

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<v Speaker 1>American elections. He didn't talk about in the speech, but

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<v Speaker 1>in the documents he released, it confirmed that the Russian

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<v Speaker 1>government was spreading claims that Joe Biden was engaged in

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<v Speaker 1>a criminal activity with Barisma with his son. Like they

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<v Speaker 1>released the documents and I quote, Russia planned those narratives

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<v Speaker 1>with US officials and planned a high profile corruption scandal

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<v Speaker 1>at the peak of the twenty twenty US presidential campaign.

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<v Speaker 1>This is what he actually released, Corey, to prove the

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty election was rigged against him, and it actually

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<v Speaker 1>shows that no, Russia was still interfering in our elections

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<v Speaker 1>to hurt Joe Biden in twenty twenty. I mean, where

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<v Speaker 1>does this fit Historically We've never seen a president repeatedly

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<v Speaker 1>question the legitimacy of elections after courts and election officials

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<v Speaker 1>and Intel Agency have rejected those claims. I mean, is

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<v Speaker 1>it just desperate fumbling, Corey? Do I need to be

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<v Speaker 1>scared of this because the states do control the elections

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<v Speaker 1>and all of this is just lies to try to

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<v Speaker 1>get a population worried about gas prices to care a

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<v Speaker 1>lot about it election six years ago, so they can

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<v Speaker 1>cheat in one in a few months.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think we do have to be concerned, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's why we have to try to figure out, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>what is going on behind the scenes, because this speech

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<v Speaker 2>gives us not more than suspicion, it gives us evidence

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<v Speaker 2>that he is going to try to cheat in this election.

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<v Speaker 2>And his obsession about proving that somehow there is election

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<v Speaker 2>interference against him, you know, is all part of building

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<v Speaker 2>this case to cheat in the next election. I think

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<v Speaker 2>it goes to a kind of psychology which is actually

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<v Speaker 2>kind of Nixonian broadly, which is everybody's doing it, everybody's cheating,

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<v Speaker 2>so I can cheat too. And how does he show

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<v Speaker 2>that he shows that there are forces lined up against

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<v Speaker 2>him supposedly, Well, he isn't actually shown. Point about barisma.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, let's remember that in the first impeachment of

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<v Speaker 2>Trump for the quid pro quo where he was really

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<v Speaker 2>threatening Zelensky in order to get information on his opponent.

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<v Speaker 2>That was the information that he was seeking Hunter Biden

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<v Speaker 2>and Joe Biden supposed involvement with Ukrainian company, and one

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<v Speaker 2>the that we've never gotten away with and it's a

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<v Speaker 2>president who was obsessed with his supposed opponent who's no

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<v Speaker 2>longer president, Joe Biden, and all with an aim of

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<v Speaker 2>one thing, which is just like that original scheme in

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<v Speaker 2>the first impeachment, getting information that I could use on

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<v Speaker 2>my opponents send an election, to cheat, to manipulate the vote.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's what this said was really exhibit A in

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<v Speaker 2>his attempted coup to destroy our democracy.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what he got impieced for with Ukraine. All right,

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<v Speaker 1>really quick, because I know we have to move on.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a lot to cover. But during the speech, Trump

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<v Speaker 1>criticized CNN and ABC and NBC for declining to air

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<v Speaker 1>his lies live on their networks, and he suggested their

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<v Speaker 1>broadcast licenses should be revoked because the only thing these

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<v Speaker 1>people hate more than the New Testament is the Bill

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<v Speaker 1>of Rights. So, Corey, from a First Amendment standpoint, obviously,

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<v Speaker 1>the government can't punish newspapers or TV stations because it

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<v Speaker 1>dislikes editorial decisions. Can you just explain why editorial discretion

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<v Speaker 1>itself is constitutionally protected speech.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, we talked last week with the senator

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<v Speaker 2>from Oregon, Senator Wyden about his jaw Boning Act, and

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<v Speaker 2>we talked to death about this, and I'm so grateful

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<v Speaker 2>actually to listeners who keep writing to me, and a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of people had never heard this term jaw boning,

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<v Speaker 2>but it is so important for the moment because sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>you know, in the Sedition Act, which we've talked about extensively,

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<v Speaker 2>John Adams signed law that said basically, criticize the president,

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<v Speaker 2>you go to prison. The nice thing about that law is, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>obviously that's a shutdown of free speech. And yeah, back

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<v Speaker 2>looking back on it, we can see that what about

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<v Speaker 2>when the president uses the FCC in order to pressure

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<v Speaker 2>private companies to make their own decisions. I'm giving this

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<v Speaker 2>the most sympathetic, overly sympathetic way of describing.

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<v Speaker 1>It, to shut it query.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe that's not the government shutting down your free speech,

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<v Speaker 2>and so it's not relevant to the First Amendment, except

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<v Speaker 2>that obviously that's not what's going on the government pretending

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<v Speaker 2>that private companies are making their own decisions, but really

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<v Speaker 2>are pressuring forcing them to do so. So that's a problem.

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<v Speaker 1>By the way, thank you for reminding everybody that Donald

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<v Speaker 1>Trump attacked capitalism. I'll be sure to remind the Democratic

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<v Speaker 1>Party to not use that at all in their campaigns

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<v Speaker 1>this year. You know, please Democrats don't use that and

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<v Speaker 1>it's too effective. Please don't go out as hypocrisy Democrats.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, the way he's gotten away with it is

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<v Speaker 2>that he pretends somehow that these are private decisions. CBS,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, did show the speech, thankfully, ABC and NBC

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<v Speaker 2>did not. Even though they are going to have their

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<v Speaker 2>licenses threatened. They resisted in the face of it. It's

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<v Speaker 2>still a First Amendment violation. I hope that those corporations

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<v Speaker 2>do sue because you cannot, through pressure, threaten the licenses

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<v Speaker 2>and try to basically shut down the decision making of

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<v Speaker 2>private companies. And yes, the Democratic Party better be emphasizing.

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<v Speaker 2>I thought cn EN did a nice job. They printed

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<v Speaker 2>the speech, but with panditation, that's a good way to

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<v Speaker 2>do it. You can cover the speech. We're covering it

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<v Speaker 2>right now, exactly, letting it air on its own.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that was the question I had for you, and

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<v Speaker 1>then we'll get off this topic. But it doesn't seem

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<v Speaker 1>too tough to balance these two competing journalistic obligations. Right

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<v Speaker 1>on the one hand, you have to inform the public

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<v Speaker 1>because it's a speech, and you got to tell them

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<v Speaker 1>what the president said, but you also have to avoid

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<v Speaker 1>amplifying demonstrably false claims, which is the same reason why

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<v Speaker 1>if you're hosting a debate and Donald Trump is there,

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<v Speaker 1>you really want to call out his lives. But that's

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<v Speaker 1>another show. So I mean, that seems to be where

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<v Speaker 1>it's at. Corey, I agree with you. I think that

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<v Speaker 1>they pulled it off by actually having fact checking for

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<v Speaker 1>a speech, and I support keeping that and when there's

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<v Speaker 1>a democratic president, I hope they keep it too. I

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<v Speaker 1>would love to see these broadcast networks have live fact

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<v Speaker 1>checking in the moment to scare these politicians into telling

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<v Speaker 1>the truth.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, I think that's the only way to

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<v Speaker 2>do it, because there is a real story here, which

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<v Speaker 2>is that the president is trying to undermine our elections

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<v Speaker 2>in order to try to steal the midterms. And that's

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<v Speaker 2>about the biggest story that there can be. Now, how

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<v Speaker 2>do you cover it? That's a separate question. And if

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<v Speaker 2>you cover it by just you know, letting that speech

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<v Speaker 2>appear nearly willy with no commentary, is if it's true,

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<v Speaker 2>then that's the opposite of journalism. So CNN and ABC

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<v Speaker 2>and NBC, great jobs, CBS, you know, Wow, you really

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<v Speaker 2>are turning into the next Fox.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, I got to say, Tony Dekoppele gave Donald Trump

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<v Speaker 1>a lovely flot massage later in the evening. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know if you saw it, but he actually cooked him

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<v Speaker 1>dinner and then made him a comfortable bed and then

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<v Speaker 1>gave him a flip massage with anointed oils from India.

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<v Speaker 1>It was beautiful. I wish you'd seen it. It was

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<v Speaker 1>really good journalism. Oh, CBS, All right, let's talk about

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<v Speaker 1>Todd Blanche has been a few days since the confirmation hearings.

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<v Speaker 1>They did not go well. The senators were talking to

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<v Speaker 1>him about obviously, the DOJ is supposed to be independent,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's being used to pursue Donald Trump's political opponents.

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<v Speaker 1>And you were his criminal defense lawyer. Why are we

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<v Speaker 1>doing this? I mean, I don't even know where to begin, Corey.

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<v Speaker 1>This guy should not even make it to a hearing

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<v Speaker 1>and he's most likely going to be confirmed. What constitutional

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<v Speaker 1>principles are at risk when concerns are there that prosecutorial

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<v Speaker 1>power is being exercised to beat up on a president's foes.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, there's a lot made of the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that I do want to emphasize this that the Department

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<v Speaker 2>of Justice is supposed to be representing the people the

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<v Speaker 2>cases that brought criminal cases on behalf of the people

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<v Speaker 2>of the United States, not on behalf of the president.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course, the way that Blanche sees himself is

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<v Speaker 2>that he is the personal lawyer of the president. And

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<v Speaker 2>I've said that, you know, on CNN and on this show,

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<v Speaker 2>but you just said something that I want to emphasize

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<v Speaker 2>even more. Mead, Yes, that he sees himself as the

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<v Speaker 2>personal defense lawyer of the president. This was the guy

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<v Speaker 2>that defends he is defendant Donald Trump. In the New

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<v Speaker 2>York case about Stormy Daniels from criminal charges, he went

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<v Speaker 2>after Michael Cohen by trying to just accuse him of

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<v Speaker 2>lying about everything on the stand, even though a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of what he was saying was backed up by evidence.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, Donald Trump was convicted in that case. And

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<v Speaker 2>what's going on here too, is that that's the kind

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<v Speaker 2>of thud, I'll call it a thug lawyer that we're

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<v Speaker 2>getting as Acting Attorney Drenal is trying to be Attorney General,

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<v Speaker 2>that he's just going after Trump's opponents, defending him at

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<v Speaker 2>all costs, going after his opponents as he would an

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<v Speaker 2>opponent in court. It is really such a travesty.

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<v Speaker 1>Chuck Grassley still has not scheduled a vote yet, which

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<v Speaker 1>is very interesting. And it's not because Chuck Grassley is

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<v Speaker 1>waiting on a case of true blood to arrive to

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<v Speaker 1>keep him living. It's because John Cornyn is very far

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<v Speaker 1>from a yes right now, and it's only going to

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<v Speaker 1>take one Republican no vote in this committee to sink

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<v Speaker 1>the nomination and Professor. As we all know, John Cornyan

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't oh Donald Trump any favors for the rest of

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<v Speaker 1>his life, does he. Donald Trump decided to endorse Nazi

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<v Speaker 1>weasel Ken Paxton, and that's why John Cornan is about

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<v Speaker 1>to become an ex senator. And now John Cornan's vote

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<v Speaker 1>could sink Donald Trump's crooked pick for Attorney General. It's

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<v Speaker 1>kind of brilliant, except I don't know who to root

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<v Speaker 1>for and who to root against.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, a lot of this comes down to

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<v Speaker 2>this slush fund to try to take money that Trump

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<v Speaker 2>got in a illicit deal with the Irs, to deal

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<v Speaker 2>with himself in order to fund money to his allies,

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<v Speaker 2>including those who participated in January sixth. Now that slush fund,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, just so not just so happens. We planned

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<v Speaker 2>this guest guy Perriman, her group stop that slush fund. Literally,

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<v Speaker 2>they are the people that went to court and said,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think so, like you know, this is illegal,

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<v Speaker 2>and once they got a court order from a judge,

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<v Speaker 2>that started to you know, help get media attention on

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<v Speaker 2>it and to get now here's where it's really relevant

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<v Speaker 2>to these hearings, to get the Attorney general to back

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<v Speaker 2>down or so he says. He said multiple times it's dead.

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<v Speaker 2>But now when Corning says, okay, put it in writing,

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<v Speaker 2>he refuses to do so. And that's one thing that

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<v Speaker 2>really pissed off this senator from Texas that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>essentially not just lying, but just rubbing it into the

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<v Speaker 2>face of the committee that you're pretending, maybe for a

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<v Speaker 2>few seconds, to drop this slush fund and then refusing

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<v Speaker 2>to put it in writing. Well, one thing, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I talked to Periman about this. Wait for this in

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<v Speaker 2>the interview. Amazing to listen to what's going on with

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<v Speaker 2>the case, you would think that if they really dropped it,

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<v Speaker 2>they have not dropped the case. They are continuing to

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<v Speaker 2>fight for this slush fund against those who would stop it.

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<v Speaker 2>And that suggests the Senator is exactly right. What a

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<v Speaker 2>news worthy moment for that interview, for this battle between

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<v Speaker 2>Cornyan and Trump. You know, let's hope that that Trump

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't come up with some deal that makes cornyin back down.

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<v Speaker 2>It's too important.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, and there's also the not too small factor of

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<v Speaker 1>covering a child rape, which has been Tillis's problem. We

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<v Speaker 1>got to take a quick break, but when we come back,

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<v Speaker 1>I want to pick up on this note, professor, because

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<v Speaker 1>as you know, a federal judge just smacked down this

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<v Speaker 1>IRS settlement and I want to ask you about it

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<v Speaker 1>back in a moment, donn the oath that in the office.

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<v Speaker 4>The New John Fugel Sang Show every day at twelve noon.

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<v Speaker 3>Good afternoon, John, and welcome back to Afternoon Radio.

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<v Speaker 1>I have missed you. Now you're back into the daylight.

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<v Speaker 2>Good afternoon, John. Congraduations on the new show, loving it,

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<v Speaker 2>Congratulations on the changes happening with the show.

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<v Speaker 5>Excited for you, Excited for me personally, like, oh my god,

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<v Speaker 5>I can call an again.

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<v Speaker 4>The New John Fugel Sang Show every day at twelve

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<v Speaker 4>noon on Serious XM Progress Channel one twenty seven, or

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<v Speaker 4>on the Serious XCM after.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the oath and the office. I'm John Fiegel, saying,

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<v Speaker 1>along with Professor Corey Bretschneider, Corey, federal judge just described

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<v Speaker 1>that IRS agreement that would benefit Trump as an improper

418
00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:18.640
<v Speaker 1>exercise in self dealing and pretty much smacked out all

419
00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:22.079
<v Speaker 1>of the corruptions surrounding the entire litigation and even referred

420
00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:25.599
<v Speaker 1>one of the attorneys involved to state bar authorities. A

421
00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:28.440
<v Speaker 1>lot to unpack. We already knew this was corrupt. A

422
00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:31.599
<v Speaker 1>federal judge is now validated that. For those like me

423
00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:35.880
<v Speaker 1>in the audience, what does self dealing actually mean legally speaking?

424
00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:38.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, the way that this has been described

425
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:41.240
<v Speaker 2>is as a fraud on the court. And that sounds

426
00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:43.880
<v Speaker 2>like a strong way to put it, and for good reason.

427
00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:46.240
<v Speaker 2>The whole idea of a lawsuit is supposed to be

428
00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:49.279
<v Speaker 2>that you have two parties battling it out. Now, think

429
00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:52.039
<v Speaker 2>about it. The IRS is part of the executive branch

430
00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:55.039
<v Speaker 2>and Donald Trump is in charge of the executive branch.

431
00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:58.319
<v Speaker 2>And yet this supposed deal was hashed out between two

432
00:22:58.400 --> 00:23:01.680
<v Speaker 2>warring parties, the IRS and Trump. No, it was Trump

433
00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:04.359
<v Speaker 2>and himself. It was a scam, and that's what this

434
00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:07.359
<v Speaker 2>judge is pulling out. I mentioned the unitary executive theory.

435
00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:09.599
<v Speaker 2>You know, it used to be that there were theories

436
00:23:09.640 --> 00:23:12.079
<v Speaker 2>of the executive branch that said you had civil servants,

437
00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:14.759
<v Speaker 2>the I R. S. Or the Department of Justice is

438
00:23:14.839 --> 00:23:18.039
<v Speaker 2>technically underneath the president, but they really are, you know,

439
00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:22.960
<v Speaker 2>legally separate all of those hurdles. Those barriers between the

440
00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:26.119
<v Speaker 2>president and the agencies are disappearing under the theory that

441
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:28.880
<v Speaker 2>Donald Trump and his lackeys are pushing the units of

442
00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:32.519
<v Speaker 2>executive So in what way is this really a battle

443
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:36.039
<v Speaker 2>between Trump and a different entity? No, it's Donald Trump

444
00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:39.319
<v Speaker 2>self dealing with himself, not in the conflict. And that's

445
00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:41.799
<v Speaker 2>the fraud on the court that's been called out. There

446
00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:45.119
<v Speaker 2>isn't a real conflict. I keep mentioning Sky Perryman. I'm

447
00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:47.559
<v Speaker 2>so excited for listeners to hear it. But you know

448
00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:50.400
<v Speaker 2>it's an other place where incredibly, they went out and

449
00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:53.359
<v Speaker 2>they have either people come to them or they seek

450
00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:55.839
<v Speaker 2>out plaintiffs in these cases who are going to have

451
00:23:55.960 --> 00:24:00.960
<v Speaker 2>standing to challenge these bs deals, to challenge the slush fund,

452
00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:03.400
<v Speaker 2>to challenge the needed thing that gave rise to the

453
00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:06.119
<v Speaker 2>money for the slush fund, which is this fake fraud

454
00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:09.680
<v Speaker 2>on the court. Lawsuit. So you know, really it's what's

455
00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:12.079
<v Speaker 2>our guests are often, you know, related to the news

456
00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:15.359
<v Speaker 2>that you know, definitely we had Senator widen As that

457
00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:17.960
<v Speaker 2>we were considering whether or not to confirm the d

458
00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:21.359
<v Speaker 2>n I and the questions of international surveillance. That was

459
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:24.319
<v Speaker 2>an amazing episode and this one is too really relevant.

460
00:24:24.440 --> 00:24:26.519
<v Speaker 1>Okay, well, let me let me just ask you about this,

461
00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:28.920
<v Speaker 1>because the Catholic Church as a whole policy of their

462
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:31.599
<v Speaker 1>own on self dealing, but it's got a bit different language.

463
00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:35.359
<v Speaker 1>They're not fans. How How rare is it for a

464
00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:38.759
<v Speaker 1>federal judge to refer an attorney involved in a case

465
00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:40.079
<v Speaker 1>to state bar authorities.

466
00:24:41.079 --> 00:24:43.079
<v Speaker 2>It's pretty rare, you know, and it's got to be

467
00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:46.039
<v Speaker 2>really bad. But think of what I just told you exactly.

468
00:24:46.119 --> 00:24:49.640
<v Speaker 2>You know, judges don't like being made dupes. And I

469
00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:51.359
<v Speaker 2>want to see more of it fraught on the court.

470
00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:53.160
<v Speaker 1>I want to see more of this. I hope it's

471
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.720
<v Speaker 1>not too late to dispar Pam bond equory. Do you understand.

472
00:24:55.720 --> 00:24:58.000
<v Speaker 1>I still I'm still holding out hope that Pam BONDI

473
00:24:58.039 --> 00:25:00.480
<v Speaker 1>could be disbarred for this stuff. Like I'm thrilled to

474
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:04.200
<v Speaker 1>see the judicial branch actually punching back and not just

475
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:05.920
<v Speaker 1>handing over their money to the ability.

476
00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:08.480
<v Speaker 2>And I want to say why. You know, judges do

477
00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:10.880
<v Speaker 2>get emotional, they do get angry. And one of the

478
00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:13.960
<v Speaker 2>things I think that really angers them is well, straight

479
00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:15.920
<v Speaker 2>up lying, which we've seen from a lot of the

480
00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:18.880
<v Speaker 2>Department of Justice. And we've talked about why a presumption

481
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:22.160
<v Speaker 2>of trusting the Department of Justice has just evaporated. That

482
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:25.240
<v Speaker 2>long tradition is gone, given how much lying there's been.

483
00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:27.839
<v Speaker 2>That's one thing that makes them really angry. But there's

484
00:25:27.880 --> 00:25:30.359
<v Speaker 2>what really makes them even more angry when you try

485
00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:33.920
<v Speaker 2>to give them to rubber stamp a fake agreement with

486
00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:37.960
<v Speaker 2>what you're presenting as two warring parties but really are not.

487
00:25:38.200 --> 00:25:40.559
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's like, you know, me and you John

488
00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:44.440
<v Speaker 2>catch a plot to pretend to have a battle because

489
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:46.880
<v Speaker 2>we've come up with a way to fraudulently benefit if

490
00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:49.200
<v Speaker 2>it looks like we're in a lawsuit, we're lying the

491
00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:51.839
<v Speaker 2>judge that we get to involve our we're not really

492
00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:54.039
<v Speaker 2>doing this. But if we get a judge to involve

493
00:25:54.079 --> 00:25:56.359
<v Speaker 2>ourselves in that, they're not going to be happy. And

494
00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:59.440
<v Speaker 2>that's exactly what's happened. They're trying to basically rope in

495
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:02.079
<v Speaker 2>the judicial sherry to make them a party to a fraud.

496
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:06.000
<v Speaker 1>Can I tell you my really unpopular opinion about this, Cory, please,

497
00:26:06.279 --> 00:26:09.359
<v Speaker 1>My really unpopular opinion about this is that I don't

498
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:13.079
<v Speaker 1>want to hear any Democrats complain about it, because the

499
00:26:13.160 --> 00:26:17.119
<v Speaker 1>Constitution already has mechanisms designed to stop presidents from using

500
00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:20.920
<v Speaker 1>the public office for their private benefit. The Constitution has

501
00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:25.079
<v Speaker 1>the emolument's clauses foreign and domestic. As I've told you

502
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:28.880
<v Speaker 1>many times, we could have impeached Donald Trump one minute

503
00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:33.200
<v Speaker 1>into his first inaugural address in twenty seventeen. Jimmy Carter

504
00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:36.119
<v Speaker 1>gave up a damn peanut farm. Mitt Romney was willing

505
00:26:36.160 --> 00:26:39.759
<v Speaker 1>to put his gazillions into a blind trust. This president

506
00:26:39.799 --> 00:26:42.119
<v Speaker 1>has made more money in the last year off the

507
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:45.160
<v Speaker 1>office than he ever made on his own in his

508
00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:49.640
<v Speaker 1>entire life. And I don't see anyone ever mentioning the

509
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:53.319
<v Speaker 1>constitutions of mollument's clauses ever, and it's happening out in

510
00:26:53.319 --> 00:26:56.039
<v Speaker 1>the open, So why shouldn't he do it at this point?

511
00:26:56.240 --> 00:26:59.240
<v Speaker 1>If even the Democratic Party is not going to risk

512
00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:02.039
<v Speaker 1>the bad vibe of using the eyeword related.

513
00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:05.160
<v Speaker 2>To this, well, it is impeachable. Our whole episode about

514
00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:08.079
<v Speaker 2>the more than two billion dollars that the president has stolen,

515
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:11.720
<v Speaker 2>not just benefited, using the office in order to profit

516
00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:14.480
<v Speaker 2>himself is exhibit A. And the reason it's like.

517
00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:16.759
<v Speaker 1>It almost sounds like you don't trust Crypto, professor, It

518
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:18.880
<v Speaker 1>almost sounds like he's calling Crypto a scam.

519
00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:21.359
<v Speaker 2>But go on, and you know what's the argument for

520
00:27:21.400 --> 00:27:25.000
<v Speaker 2>why this specifically is a place for impeachment. Well, as

521
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:27.599
<v Speaker 2>you say, and that it is true, you're not seeing it.

522
00:27:28.039 --> 00:27:30.160
<v Speaker 2>You know, usually in the media you are hearing about

523
00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:32.799
<v Speaker 2>it and seeing it on this podcast. We have two

524
00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:37.160
<v Speaker 2>emolument's clauses, one domestic, one international, and Trump is continually

525
00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:39.960
<v Speaker 2>violating both. And he's doing it for two reasons. One

526
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:44.039
<v Speaker 2>is he thinks he has immunity. He shouldn't and doesn't

527
00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:47.599
<v Speaker 2>have immunity. These aren't official acts, but he's deluded himself

528
00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:51.000
<v Speaker 2>into thinking that they are. And yes, he can be prosecuted,

529
00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:54.480
<v Speaker 2>I think for some of these crimes after he leaves office.

530
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:56.799
<v Speaker 2>Except for the fact, and here's the second thing that's

531
00:27:56.839 --> 00:28:00.160
<v Speaker 2>complicated that we don't have laws on the books that

532
00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:03.880
<v Speaker 2>take the emoluments clauses and turn them into criminal law.

533
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:06.720
<v Speaker 2>This is a subtle point, but I think it's worth making. Yes,

534
00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:09.880
<v Speaker 2>it's prohibited under the constitution, but the way the constitution

535
00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:13.279
<v Speaker 2>works is you need to translate it into laws on

536
00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:17.160
<v Speaker 2>the books passed by Congress, and we don't have enough.

537
00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:19.960
<v Speaker 2>It's possible to do it, but it should be crystal

538
00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:25.279
<v Speaker 2>clause clear. We have prosecuting prosecutors are saying it would

539
00:28:25.319 --> 00:28:27.359
<v Speaker 2>be hard to make the case because they're too weak. Well,

540
00:28:27.400 --> 00:28:29.759
<v Speaker 2>I think there's an obvious answer, and Jamie Raskin has

541
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:32.480
<v Speaker 2>been one of the people who has done something about us.

542
00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:35.720
<v Speaker 2>You have to have legislation that makes it not not

543
00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:38.359
<v Speaker 2>you know, I don't should we indict him or not?

544
00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:41.039
<v Speaker 2>Should we prosecute him or not? Make the laws so

545
00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:43.359
<v Speaker 2>clear that if you use the office to steal from

546
00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:45.359
<v Speaker 2>the American public, you're going to be prospects.

547
00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:48.960
<v Speaker 1>The laws are already clear. Financial disclosures last week show

548
00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:53.599
<v Speaker 1>us that Trump's company received millions from foreign business interests

549
00:28:53.720 --> 00:28:58.160
<v Speaker 1>while related trade matters we're still pending before the US government.

550
00:28:58.519 --> 00:29:02.519
<v Speaker 1>Can you imagine if Hillary Clinton had been making money

551
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:06.680
<v Speaker 1>from foreign corporations while they had legislation pending in front

552
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:09.720
<v Speaker 1>of her husband while he was president. I think our

553
00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:13.960
<v Speaker 1>Republican friends would have impeached them using existing laws very effectively.

554
00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:17.599
<v Speaker 1>I mean, ethics scholars have always warned us about presidents

555
00:29:18.039 --> 00:29:22.279
<v Speaker 1>having extensive private business interests. But turns out, go ahead

556
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:24.680
<v Speaker 1>and do it violate all those norms because no one's

557
00:29:24.680 --> 00:29:27.519
<v Speaker 1>going to stop you. I mean, yeah, they could impeach

558
00:29:27.559 --> 00:29:29.319
<v Speaker 1>him for it. They could, they don't want to.

559
00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:31.640
<v Speaker 2>Let's talk about two things. One is, and this is

560
00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:34.799
<v Speaker 2>we're in heated agreement about this. That the you know,

561
00:29:34.839 --> 00:29:38.640
<v Speaker 2>in the absence of criminal laws, making something obviously illegal,

562
00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:40.839
<v Speaker 2>and that's the situation I think that we're in. We

563
00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:44.039
<v Speaker 2>do have another mechanism for removing a president. That's impeachment.

564
00:29:44.119 --> 00:29:47.799
<v Speaker 2>And when the Constitution says that an impeachabable offense is

565
00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:50.839
<v Speaker 2>a high crime and misdemeanor, it doesn't mean a criminal offense.

566
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:54.119
<v Speaker 2>It means a crime against the Constitution, against the Republic,

567
00:29:54.200 --> 00:29:58.799
<v Speaker 2>against the people, and the emoluments clause violations are primary there.

568
00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:02.039
<v Speaker 2>So yes, Second, that we have a democratic majority in

569
00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:06.200
<v Speaker 2>the House, I think, in addition to other articles of impeachment,

570
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:11.039
<v Speaker 2>the first ones definitely should be about these emoluments clause violations.

571
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:13.319
<v Speaker 2>Now here's the second thing, though, that we need to

572
00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:16.160
<v Speaker 2>do because this is also a problem. When I talked

573
00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:18.480
<v Speaker 2>to prosecutors and we had Joyce Vance on the show,

574
00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:20.640
<v Speaker 2>and just as a reminder, she's one of the people

575
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:23.640
<v Speaker 2>who think amazing that you know that even the most

576
00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:26.640
<v Speaker 2>seasoned federal prosecutors who agree with us that this should

577
00:30:26.680 --> 00:30:28.519
<v Speaker 2>be a crimer like I don't know that if I

578
00:30:28.599 --> 00:30:31.440
<v Speaker 2>brought that case that I could get a conviction. That

579
00:30:31.519 --> 00:30:33.720
<v Speaker 2>tells me that we need laws on the books to

580
00:30:34.119 --> 00:30:37.519
<v Speaker 2>make it easier. Not just talking about impeachment now, I'm

581
00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:40.039
<v Speaker 2>talking about putting somebody in prison, just to remind people

582
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:42.640
<v Speaker 2>you impeach and remove a president, they don't go to prison,

583
00:30:42.680 --> 00:30:45.079
<v Speaker 2>they're just out of office. That would be great, but

584
00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:48.039
<v Speaker 2>this is an offense that is worthy of a prison sentence,

585
00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:49.839
<v Speaker 2>and we may clarify.

586
00:30:49.400 --> 00:30:52.359
<v Speaker 1>Them make Grifter is afraid of prison again. I agree.

587
00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:55.319
<v Speaker 1>And you know, look, my unpopular opinion is Democrats should

588
00:30:55.359 --> 00:31:00.240
<v Speaker 1>be impeaching this guy for something else. Once a week.

589
00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:02.640
<v Speaker 1>Every week, there should be new articles of impeachment introduced

590
00:31:02.680 --> 00:31:05.839
<v Speaker 1>by a new Democratic representative and they will go nowhere

591
00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:07.599
<v Speaker 1>and there should be a lot of hype and news

592
00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:11.079
<v Speaker 1>coverage for it. Because when the Republicans were introducing seventy

593
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:14.880
<v Speaker 1>plus repeal Obamacare bills, and we laughed and laughed at them.

594
00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:19.079
<v Speaker 1>What they were doing in that doomed Kamakazi legislation was

595
00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:23.319
<v Speaker 1>fundraising and giving a mission statement and reminding their base

596
00:31:23.319 --> 00:31:25.759
<v Speaker 1>of exactly what they were fighting for. In that case,

597
00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:28.319
<v Speaker 1>it was taking healthcare away from Americans because they're evil.

598
00:31:28.480 --> 00:31:31.480
<v Speaker 1>But I think you want to see a Democratic party fighting.

599
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:34.039
<v Speaker 1>Get in the ring. Now. Let me be willing to

600
00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:35.920
<v Speaker 1>see you take a punch and even get knocked down

601
00:31:35.960 --> 00:31:38.079
<v Speaker 1>and not get there, but you're going to fight for it,

602
00:31:38.119 --> 00:31:41.160
<v Speaker 1>and you're not going to not fight for impeachment because

603
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:42.920
<v Speaker 1>you know it's going to fail. I think we want

604
00:31:42.920 --> 00:31:45.119
<v Speaker 1>to see that. Al Green alone can't do it, and

605
00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:47.319
<v Speaker 1>I think Democrats, if they did, it would raise a

606
00:31:47.319 --> 00:31:49.440
<v Speaker 1>lot of awareness about this kind of corruption and the

607
00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:52.279
<v Speaker 1>emolument's clause. Most Americans don't know what the emoluments clause is.

608
00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:54.759
<v Speaker 1>They should and I think you can fundraise off it

609
00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:56.960
<v Speaker 1>as well. So I'd like to see them just get

610
00:31:57.000 --> 00:31:57.480
<v Speaker 1>in the spirit.

611
00:31:57.880 --> 00:32:00.039
<v Speaker 2>There's another really, you know, I'm of the bl be

612
00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:03.279
<v Speaker 2>that although the impeachments didn't result, half the impeachments in

613
00:32:03.319 --> 00:32:05.519
<v Speaker 2>the history of the Republic I should say, we're in

614
00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:08.799
<v Speaker 2>Trump's first term, and you know they weren't a mistake.

615
00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:12.079
<v Speaker 2>They let us see the threat to democracy, both in

616
00:32:12.119 --> 00:32:14.799
<v Speaker 2>the attempt to get dirt on his opponent Joe Biden.

617
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:17.799
<v Speaker 2>Still relevant to the speech, of course, the impeachment for

618
00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:20.960
<v Speaker 2>January sixth was called for, and one of the things

619
00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:23.359
<v Speaker 2>that it does, and Johnny, I think you're getting at

620
00:32:23.400 --> 00:32:26.799
<v Speaker 2>this too, is not just rise awareness of the general crimes,

621
00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:29.960
<v Speaker 2>but we get information. And so much of the problem

622
00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:33.359
<v Speaker 2>of this presidency is the black box that's hiding the

623
00:32:33.400 --> 00:32:36.559
<v Speaker 2>illegal activity, the fraud. That's part of what sky Perriman

624
00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:39.319
<v Speaker 2>is trying to do after this speech and her lawsuits

625
00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:42.440
<v Speaker 2>with Democracy Forward to get information about what's going on

626
00:32:42.559 --> 00:32:45.880
<v Speaker 2>behind the scenes try to steal the midterm elections. But

627
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:49.039
<v Speaker 2>it also would happen through impeachment, where we would get

628
00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:50.960
<v Speaker 2>information as we did in the first term.

629
00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:53.279
<v Speaker 1>So before we hit our break and then the interview,

630
00:32:53.319 --> 00:32:55.920
<v Speaker 1>because now you've got me dying to hear it really quick.

631
00:32:56.119 --> 00:32:59.839
<v Speaker 1>This is really disturbing. After Ice has now officially killed

632
00:33:00.039 --> 00:33:03.519
<v Speaker 1>believe they're eighth person of the Year, the reports are

633
00:33:03.559 --> 00:33:08.799
<v Speaker 1>that the FBI is going to stop investigating confrontations involving

634
00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:14.319
<v Speaker 1>ICE personnel. In other words, no oversight. If these masked

635
00:33:14.599 --> 00:33:19.799
<v Speaker 1>cowards with badges murder people, the FBI, the federal government

636
00:33:20.680 --> 00:33:25.920
<v Speaker 1>won't take any interest in such violence. I mean, Corey,

637
00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:29.039
<v Speaker 1>if ever there was a time for independent oversight being

638
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:33.319
<v Speaker 1>an important component of constitutional governance, wouldn't it be this?

639
00:33:34.039 --> 00:33:37.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean, Americans might die and the FBI won't get

640
00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:37.960
<v Speaker 1>in the way.

641
00:33:39.319 --> 00:33:41.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean it is, you know, talking about a

642
00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:46.039
<v Speaker 2>veil of secrecy and hiding information. What's happening we know

643
00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:48.400
<v Speaker 2>is that ICE and I'll just emphasize part of the

644
00:33:48.440 --> 00:33:52.039
<v Speaker 2>reason why is structural. They've eliminated essentially the training for

645
00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:55.880
<v Speaker 2>ICE officers, so you know, yeah, grut is a gun

646
00:33:56.000 --> 00:33:59.440
<v Speaker 2>people who really shouldn't be working in these positions. Refusing

647
00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:02.480
<v Speaker 2>to train them, We're going to have not fewer, but

648
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:06.000
<v Speaker 2>more of these horrific incidents in which people on the

649
00:34:06.079 --> 00:34:10.880
<v Speaker 2>street are having their basic rights human rights abused by ICE.

650
00:34:11.400 --> 00:34:13.760
<v Speaker 2>And rather than you know, who's supposed to be looking

651
00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:17.840
<v Speaker 2>into these offenses, it's the federal government. It's the FBI,

652
00:34:17.960 --> 00:34:19.880
<v Speaker 2>and they are refusing to do it. They are just

653
00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:23.320
<v Speaker 2>adding to the veil of secrecy, as listeners know. And

654
00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:27.039
<v Speaker 2>I'll just emphasize it again. Other entities have to step up.

655
00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:31.719
<v Speaker 2>And I am really an advocate for state attorneys generals,

656
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:35.880
<v Speaker 2>local prosecutors bringing charges against ice officers. I know about

657
00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:39.480
<v Speaker 2>at least one investigation in Minnesota, but you know, we

658
00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:42.079
<v Speaker 2>now know there might have been a debate about that.

659
00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:44.400
<v Speaker 2>Isn't this a role for the federal government. They have

660
00:34:44.679 --> 00:34:47.679
<v Speaker 2>just abdicated the federal government their role in enforcing the

661
00:34:47.719 --> 00:34:50.880
<v Speaker 2>criminal laws. If you murder somebody, that's a violation of

662
00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:55.000
<v Speaker 2>local Every state in this country bans murder, and you

663
00:34:55.039 --> 00:34:57.480
<v Speaker 2>know what, those laws have to be enforced. They're not

664
00:34:57.519 --> 00:34:59.480
<v Speaker 2>going to be enforced by the federal government, so they

665
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:02.239
<v Speaker 2>have to be for us well, state prosecuted.

666
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:02.639
<v Speaker 6>You know.

667
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:05.480
<v Speaker 1>NPR had an interview with a woman named Ashley Bruyette.

668
00:35:05.800 --> 00:35:08.559
<v Speaker 1>She is the ex wife of the man David Bruyette,

669
00:35:09.159 --> 00:35:13.559
<v Speaker 1>who shot and killed Johann Deran Guerrero four times in

670
00:35:13.719 --> 00:35:16.400
<v Speaker 1>Maine last week in front of his child. This man

671
00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:19.840
<v Speaker 1>was not the target, He had a social Security number,

672
00:35:19.880 --> 00:35:23.000
<v Speaker 1>he was following all the rules, He was unarmed. He

673
00:35:23.119 --> 00:35:25.639
<v Speaker 1>was shot in the vehicle, pulled out of the vehicle

674
00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:30.199
<v Speaker 1>in front of his three year old daughter, handcuffed once

675
00:35:30.239 --> 00:35:32.599
<v Speaker 1>he was pulled out and shot and left to bleed

676
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:35.519
<v Speaker 1>to death on the sidewalk. And this man's ex wife

677
00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:39.039
<v Speaker 1>told NPR that he called her and begged her to

678
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:42.199
<v Speaker 1>say positive things about his character. She said that he

679
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:44.800
<v Speaker 1>was abusive. She said that he's already asked her to

680
00:35:44.920 --> 00:35:47.920
<v Speaker 1>lie for him. His former best friend from high school

681
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:50.800
<v Speaker 1>testified on his ex wife's behalf when they broke up

682
00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:54.480
<v Speaker 1>because he was so abusive. She played a tape of

683
00:35:54.519 --> 00:35:56.960
<v Speaker 1>this man threatening to have all the women in her

684
00:35:56.960 --> 00:36:01.000
<v Speaker 1>family's throats cut. In a twenty twenty one court filing,

685
00:36:01.159 --> 00:36:04.039
<v Speaker 1>this guy was stripped of his firearms temporarily because of

686
00:36:04.119 --> 00:36:07.480
<v Speaker 1>complaints of abuse from his second ex wife, Corey. I'm like,

687
00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:10.159
<v Speaker 1>is it too much to ask that we screened these people?

688
00:36:10.840 --> 00:36:15.159
<v Speaker 1>The man who describing just shot and killed an innocent

689
00:36:15.239 --> 00:36:19.079
<v Speaker 1>man last week who was getting a citizenship, and they

690
00:36:19.079 --> 00:36:21.880
<v Speaker 1>had the wrong guy, and we're still paying his salary.

691
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:25.480
<v Speaker 1>He's not even suspended, And the FBI will not intervene

692
00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:26.119
<v Speaker 1>or investigate.

693
00:36:26.360 --> 00:36:28.880
<v Speaker 2>Yes, as a matter of as a matter of policy,

694
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:31.920
<v Speaker 2>they're just not going to look into this wrongdoing. As

695
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:35.519
<v Speaker 2>a matter of hiring and training, there is none There

696
00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:39.480
<v Speaker 2>are no standards, and you know. That's why I should

697
00:36:39.519 --> 00:36:42.159
<v Speaker 2>say too. You could hear me talk shout through the

698
00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:45.760
<v Speaker 2>rooftops about the need for local prosecutors to bring these indictments,

699
00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:49.079
<v Speaker 2>which they definitely can, although they're reluctant to have been

700
00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:51.480
<v Speaker 2>reluctant to do so. But you want to hear the

701
00:36:51.480 --> 00:36:53.760
<v Speaker 2>best argument for it, it's just look at the facts,

702
00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:57.199
<v Speaker 2>look at the brutality, look at the individuals who are involved,

703
00:36:57.239 --> 00:36:59.320
<v Speaker 2>and then you see why we need the criminal law

704
00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:01.679
<v Speaker 2>to be in forced and why the FBI and the

705
00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:05.239
<v Speaker 2>federal government. Well, this goes back to Todd blanche. This

706
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:06.719
<v Speaker 2>is the guy who's going to be in charge of

707
00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:09.119
<v Speaker 2>whether or not to prosecute Ice. I don't think that

708
00:37:09.159 --> 00:37:11.320
<v Speaker 2>the same person who's setting up a slush fund for

709
00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:14.320
<v Speaker 2>Donald Trump and then lying about whether or not he's

710
00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:18.159
<v Speaker 2>backing off it is going to be the person to

711
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:19.880
<v Speaker 2>enforce justice for Americans.

712
00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:24.039
<v Speaker 1>God bless our fascists for being so incompetent. All right,

713
00:37:24.079 --> 00:37:25.920
<v Speaker 1>we have to take a break. Let me come back.

714
00:37:25.960 --> 00:37:27.599
<v Speaker 1>The professor assistant with sky Berravin.

715
00:37:27.639 --> 00:37:34.840
<v Speaker 3>Don't go away, Heyl Glenn Kirshner here, So, friends, I

716
00:37:34.840 --> 00:37:38.480
<v Speaker 3>hope you'll join me on my audio podcast, Justice Matters.

717
00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:43.400
<v Speaker 6>Do you care about ethics and government, criminal justice reform,

718
00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:46.239
<v Speaker 6>a conflict free federal judiciary.

719
00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:47.880
<v Speaker 1>I thought so.

720
00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:51.920
<v Speaker 6>On Justice Matters, we take on issues involving the need

721
00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:56.079
<v Speaker 6>to reform our government and its institutions, and we talk

722
00:37:56.119 --> 00:38:01.079
<v Speaker 6>about real, achievable reform. I hope you'll join us look

723
00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:09.000
<v Speaker 6>for Justice Matters wherever you usually get your podcasts.

724
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:12.840
<v Speaker 2>Welcome back to the Oath in the Office. It's really

725
00:38:12.880 --> 00:38:16.480
<v Speaker 2>my pleasure to introduce Sky Perryman. Sky Perryman is the

726
00:38:16.519 --> 00:38:20.719
<v Speaker 2>CEO of Democracy Forward, and I would call Democracy Forward

727
00:38:21.079 --> 00:38:25.119
<v Speaker 2>one of the premier legal organizations fighting Trump right now

728
00:38:25.159 --> 00:38:28.960
<v Speaker 2>in court, trying to defend our democracy. We'll talk about

729
00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:32.159
<v Speaker 2>what they've been doing, incredible work. It's been my honor

730
00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:35.559
<v Speaker 2>to work with them on the tariff's case. Sky is

731
00:38:35.639 --> 00:38:38.280
<v Speaker 2>a graduate of Georgetown Law School. She was named one

732
00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:42.039
<v Speaker 2>of Time magazines one hundred most influential people, and she

733
00:38:42.199 --> 00:38:44.880
<v Speaker 2>joins me to discuss the legal fight against the Trump

734
00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:49.360
<v Speaker 2>administration and the fight for our constitution. So, Sky Perryman,

735
00:38:49.559 --> 00:38:51.119
<v Speaker 2>Welcome to the Oath in the Office.

736
00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:53.880
<v Speaker 7>Thanks so much for having me, what a pleasure.

737
00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:57.800
<v Speaker 2>Can you just start off by telling me about the organization,

738
00:38:58.039 --> 00:39:00.880
<v Speaker 2>what your overall strategy, is. I want to get into

739
00:39:00.920 --> 00:39:04.360
<v Speaker 2>some of your incredible legal fights and really legal victories.

740
00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:07.239
<v Speaker 2>Part of our podcast is about the threat to democracy,

741
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:10.400
<v Speaker 2>but it's also about why citizens need to be fighting

742
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:13.480
<v Speaker 2>back and the hope that this actually works as worked

743
00:39:13.480 --> 00:39:15.760
<v Speaker 2>in the past, will work in the future. And your

744
00:39:15.880 --> 00:39:18.559
<v Speaker 2>organizations really really showed that. So just start off by

745
00:39:18.559 --> 00:39:21.400
<v Speaker 2>telling us what are you all about and what have

746
00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:24.559
<v Speaker 2>been your strategies in dealing with Trump two point zero.

747
00:39:25.320 --> 00:39:28.519
<v Speaker 5>We're about making sure that the American people can create

748
00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:32.280
<v Speaker 5>the conditions needed, which are democratic conditions and democracy where

749
00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:36.159
<v Speaker 5>all people can thrive. And what has happened, as you know,

750
00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:38.880
<v Speaker 5>over the past few years in our country, and this

751
00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:42.320
<v Speaker 5>did not start at twenty twenty five when President Trump

752
00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:45.280
<v Speaker 5>came back into office, but we have been for a

753
00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:48.880
<v Speaker 5>variety of years. We've been admitst a democratic backslide in

754
00:39:48.920 --> 00:39:52.039
<v Speaker 5>this country where far right extremism at the state and

755
00:39:52.079 --> 00:39:54.960
<v Speaker 5>local level has done everything from banned books to ban

756
00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:58.000
<v Speaker 5>healthcare to try to prevent people from voting. We have

757
00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:01.199
<v Speaker 5>a rise of misinformation and dism in this country. We

758
00:40:01.239 --> 00:40:04.880
<v Speaker 5>have a challenging Supreme Court landscape where the Supreme Court

759
00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:07.920
<v Speaker 5>has in many instances reversed the rights of people as

760
00:40:07.960 --> 00:40:11.639
<v Speaker 5>opposed to protect the rights of people, and all of

761
00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:16.119
<v Speaker 5>that is happening against a backdrop across the world where

762
00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:19.840
<v Speaker 5>so many countries are facing these backslides. The number of

763
00:40:20.079 --> 00:40:23.480
<v Speaker 5>democracies in the world is declining as a number of

764
00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:27.840
<v Speaker 5>autocracies is rising. So it's against this global context. And then,

765
00:40:27.880 --> 00:40:30.159
<v Speaker 5>of course, a year and a half ago, with the

766
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:33.079
<v Speaker 5>inauguration of President Trump and the way he has chosen

767
00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:36.679
<v Speaker 5>to govern, we've seen that backslide really accelerate, and so

768
00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:40.280
<v Speaker 5>our organization is about making sure that people in this

769
00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:43.960
<v Speaker 5>country can utilize the power and the tools that our

770
00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:47.679
<v Speaker 5>democracy provides for them to be able to protect their communities,

771
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:51.199
<v Speaker 5>protect their rights, to push forward when that is possible.

772
00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:54.639
<v Speaker 5>And one of those tools is the ability of people

773
00:40:54.679 --> 00:40:56.800
<v Speaker 5>to go to court and to demand that their rights

774
00:40:56.840 --> 00:40:59.840
<v Speaker 5>be defended. And so we do a lot of court work.

775
00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:03.320
<v Speaker 5>We represent all of our clients free of charge. We

776
00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:05.760
<v Speaker 5>believe that it's important that the American people be able

777
00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:09.400
<v Speaker 5>to access the courts, even if they can't afford excellent lawyers.

778
00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:13.039
<v Speaker 5>We have excellent lawyers here who do that work pro bono,

779
00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:16.320
<v Speaker 5>so that we can make sure that the Constitution is

780
00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:17.880
<v Speaker 5>defended and that people are defended.

781
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:21.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, you have put together an amazing team of litigators,

782
00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:24.760
<v Speaker 2>people who are in formerly in the Department of Justice.

783
00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:27.199
<v Speaker 2>I know many people served in the department before it

784
00:41:27.239 --> 00:41:30.480
<v Speaker 2>was taken over by Trump and trump Ism. And you've

785
00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:34.119
<v Speaker 2>been having amazing victories too in the federal courts in

786
00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:37.360
<v Speaker 2>where so much of the pushback has happened. So one

787
00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:39.800
<v Speaker 2>of the things that I know you've been deeply involved

788
00:41:39.800 --> 00:41:41.920
<v Speaker 2>in and have had success, and this is one of

789
00:41:41.960 --> 00:41:46.119
<v Speaker 2>those hopeful moments, is in pushing back against Trump's corrupt

790
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:50.000
<v Speaker 2>deal with the IRS and also his related creation of

791
00:41:50.039 --> 00:41:53.679
<v Speaker 2>this slush fund, this attack fund on his opponents. So

792
00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:56.440
<v Speaker 2>talk to me about both of these cases and how

793
00:41:56.559 --> 00:42:00.840
<v Speaker 2>your litigation strategy has really helped to stop this in

794
00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:03.000
<v Speaker 2>its tracks. I think that our listeners will want to

795
00:42:03.039 --> 00:42:05.800
<v Speaker 2>know not just what the issues are, but like, how

796
00:42:05.800 --> 00:42:07.320
<v Speaker 2>did you do this? Well?

797
00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:09.800
<v Speaker 5>We do have such an amazing team and the team

798
00:42:09.880 --> 00:42:14.320
<v Speaker 5>though we have amazing clients across this country. People in

799
00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:18.000
<v Speaker 5>communities are stepping forward even when powerful institutions have been

800
00:42:18.039 --> 00:42:21.400
<v Speaker 5>stepping back or sitting on the sidelines. And so the

801
00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:25.400
<v Speaker 5>slush fund, this creation of the one point seven seven

802
00:42:25.519 --> 00:42:29.599
<v Speaker 5>six billion dollars slush fund, which is a total corrupt

803
00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:33.679
<v Speaker 5>political kickback scheme to use taxpayer dollars to try to

804
00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:36.719
<v Speaker 5>compensate people who have been convicted of in many instances,

805
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:40.800
<v Speaker 5>people that pled guilty of violent crimes, whether that is

806
00:42:41.159 --> 00:42:44.800
<v Speaker 5>violent restrictions and trying to keep people from being able

807
00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:47.880
<v Speaker 5>to access reproductive healthcare clinics, which is unlawful under a

808
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:52.639
<v Speaker 5>broad bipartisan act, or people that participated in January sixth

809
00:42:52.679 --> 00:42:56.280
<v Speaker 5>and tried to disrupt the peaceful transition of presidential power,

810
00:42:56.679 --> 00:42:59.639
<v Speaker 5>and on and on. This slush fund that the government

811
00:42:59.679 --> 00:43:02.800
<v Speaker 5>creates has been unlawful from the start, but there was

812
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:04.840
<v Speaker 5>a real question about who would really be able to

813
00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:08.159
<v Speaker 5>step up and challenge it. And so we represent an

814
00:43:08.199 --> 00:43:11.800
<v Speaker 5>amazing coalition of plainffs. We represent a former prosecutor who

815
00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:15.840
<v Speaker 5>was fired by Donald Trump's administration this because he worked

816
00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:18.639
<v Speaker 5>on the January sixth cases. He did nothing wrong, did

817
00:43:18.679 --> 00:43:21.920
<v Speaker 5>his job, but got fired. We represent a coalition of

818
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:25.960
<v Speaker 5>reproductive health care providers who for many years, even way

819
00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:29.039
<v Speaker 5>before January sixth, when they go to work, they face

820
00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:33.960
<v Speaker 5>violence and threats because of anti abortion extremism that is

821
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:37.719
<v Speaker 5>so violent, So you know, we represent them. We represent

822
00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:40.920
<v Speaker 5>the City of New haven that's been retaliated against by

823
00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:43.880
<v Speaker 5>this administration because the administration doesn't like the way it

824
00:43:43.960 --> 00:43:47.679
<v Speaker 5>treats immigrants in its community. And then we're really pleased

825
00:43:47.679 --> 00:43:51.119
<v Speaker 5>to represent Common Cause, which is of course, you know,

826
00:43:51.159 --> 00:43:54.880
<v Speaker 5>an amazing pro democracy organization. So we have this big

827
00:43:55.039 --> 00:43:58.679
<v Speaker 5>coalition of plain effs and we were able to file suit.

828
00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:01.239
<v Speaker 5>You know, the president can't do things without acting through

829
00:44:01.239 --> 00:44:03.960
<v Speaker 5>the federal agencies, and here you have a number of

830
00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:07.960
<v Speaker 5>these federal offices that were establishing the slush fund. We

831
00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:11.039
<v Speaker 5>filed suit in the Eastern District of Virginia in federal court,

832
00:44:11.199 --> 00:44:14.440
<v Speaker 5>and we immediately were able to get the fund paused

833
00:44:14.960 --> 00:44:17.239
<v Speaker 5>because the government would not even agree. And I think

834
00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:19.440
<v Speaker 5>your listeners would be interested in this, like the government

835
00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:23.800
<v Speaker 5>would not even agree to pause the fund while the

836
00:44:23.880 --> 00:44:26.880
<v Speaker 5>court could set a hearing schedule. So this is one

837
00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:30.840
<v Speaker 5>of the Trump administration's core philosophies has been to try

838
00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:33.719
<v Speaker 5>to outrun accountability, or to try to run so fast

839
00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:36.280
<v Speaker 5>that the courts can't act. And about a year and

840
00:44:36.320 --> 00:44:38.519
<v Speaker 5>a half ago when we started lit getting these cases,

841
00:44:38.519 --> 00:44:40.639
<v Speaker 5>it was very hard sometimes to get the courts to

842
00:44:40.679 --> 00:44:43.599
<v Speaker 5>act quickly because they would you know, they would be

843
00:44:44.119 --> 00:44:46.679
<v Speaker 5>worried that, you know, are they acting to hastily now

844
00:44:46.719 --> 00:44:49.480
<v Speaker 5>that they've seen this administration try to outrun them. We're

845
00:44:49.480 --> 00:44:52.079
<v Speaker 5>seeing the federal courts understand, okay, if you're not even

846
00:44:52.119 --> 00:44:54.519
<v Speaker 5>going to agree to pause something so that we can

847
00:44:54.519 --> 00:44:56.280
<v Speaker 5>get a hearing schedule, we're going to go ahead an

848
00:44:56.280 --> 00:44:58.400
<v Speaker 5>issue in order. So that's what the court did, and

849
00:44:58.400 --> 00:45:00.320
<v Speaker 5>then she had a full hearing on our ow for

850
00:45:00.320 --> 00:45:03.880
<v Speaker 5>pulmonary injunction, where she found that, of course our clients

851
00:45:03.880 --> 00:45:06.719
<v Speaker 5>had made the case that they were likely to succeed.

852
00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:10.119
<v Speaker 5>And so now now the matter is paused, that the

853
00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:13.559
<v Speaker 5>slush fund is paused while we litigate the merits of

854
00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:13.960
<v Speaker 5>the matter.

855
00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:16.280
<v Speaker 7>Now, what's interesting about this case.

856
00:45:16.280 --> 00:45:18.760
<v Speaker 5>Another thing that has been quite interesting is that the

857
00:45:18.760 --> 00:45:21.920
<v Speaker 5>Department of Justice has made a range of claims. You know,

858
00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:25.159
<v Speaker 5>Todd blanch goes to Congress and says, the slush fund's dead,

859
00:45:25.599 --> 00:45:28.480
<v Speaker 5>we're not really doing it. And our case has really

860
00:45:28.519 --> 00:45:31.480
<v Speaker 5>been the instrument I think that has shown the American

861
00:45:31.480 --> 00:45:33.960
<v Speaker 5>people what's happening here because he goes to Congress and

862
00:45:33.960 --> 00:45:36.079
<v Speaker 5>says one thing. But then when we say, well will

863
00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:38.719
<v Speaker 5>you will you swear on yours and put put a

864
00:45:38.760 --> 00:45:40.800
<v Speaker 5>paper down in Court. You know, all of a sudden,

865
00:45:40.840 --> 00:45:43.559
<v Speaker 5>he's not interested in that. And so I think that

866
00:45:43.599 --> 00:45:46.559
<v Speaker 5>this is a great example of how litigation can.

867
00:45:46.400 --> 00:45:47.639
<v Speaker 7>Be helpful to protect people.

868
00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:50.480
<v Speaker 5>We want to protect taxpayers, we want to protect our clients. Obviously,

869
00:45:50.519 --> 00:45:53.079
<v Speaker 5>we want to protect against corruption. We certainly will our

870
00:45:53.119 --> 00:45:55.519
<v Speaker 5>clients could be harmed if these people go out and

871
00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:58.679
<v Speaker 5>get checks from the government. But we also you know,

872
00:45:58.719 --> 00:46:02.760
<v Speaker 5>this is a good mechanism really exposing how this administration

873
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:05.920
<v Speaker 5>is operating. So that's been the challenge of the slush fund. Now,

874
00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:07.159
<v Speaker 5>the other piece was this.

875
00:46:07.159 --> 00:46:12.039
<v Speaker 2>Litigation that there's so important what you're saying and this word.

876
00:46:12.199 --> 00:46:15.079
<v Speaker 2>So if you want an example of where a litigation

877
00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:18.000
<v Speaker 2>group has stopped the government clear in its tracks, this

878
00:46:18.440 --> 00:46:21.079
<v Speaker 2>really is it. And of course on the podcast, we're

879
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:24.480
<v Speaker 2>talking a lot about the heroic role that federal judges

880
00:46:24.519 --> 00:46:27.360
<v Speaker 2>have played outside of the Supreme Court, but that doesn't

881
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:29.920
<v Speaker 2>come from nowhere. You need a case and you need clients,

882
00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:32.639
<v Speaker 2>and that's what you've been able to do. But just

883
00:46:32.679 --> 00:46:35.719
<v Speaker 2>to clarify, because I think this is really important and

884
00:46:35.800 --> 00:46:37.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm not seeing it get the kind of coverage that

885
00:46:37.800 --> 00:46:42.039
<v Speaker 2>it should get. We saw the Acting Attorney General say

886
00:46:42.119 --> 00:46:44.880
<v Speaker 2>essentially that the slush fund is dead. But now what

887
00:46:44.920 --> 00:46:47.239
<v Speaker 2>I hear you saying is that he's lying to us.

888
00:46:47.320 --> 00:46:49.440
<v Speaker 2>And maybe that shouldn't come as a surprise, but it

889
00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:52.039
<v Speaker 2>is an important point. So am I right that they're

890
00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:53.960
<v Speaker 2>still fighting you in court at the same time that

891
00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:55.239
<v Speaker 2>they're pretending that it's dead.

892
00:46:56.000 --> 00:46:56.639
<v Speaker 7>Absolutely.

893
00:46:56.679 --> 00:46:58.639
<v Speaker 5>Not only are they fighting in court, just to be

894
00:46:58.760 --> 00:47:04.119
<v Speaker 5>very clear, they are refusing to sign documents to say

895
00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:07.400
<v Speaker 5>instead like, if it's dead, then let's move on, right,

896
00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:10.360
<v Speaker 5>But that's not anything that they've been willing to swear to.

897
00:47:10.440 --> 00:47:14.079
<v Speaker 5>And actually the judge in our case gave them a

898
00:47:14.119 --> 00:47:17.760
<v Speaker 5>few days to show up with evidence that the slush

899
00:47:17.800 --> 00:47:20.480
<v Speaker 5>phone was dead, and they couldn't do that. And so

900
00:47:20.599 --> 00:47:22.559
<v Speaker 5>I think, you know, we're we're going to continue to

901
00:47:22.599 --> 00:47:23.880
<v Speaker 5>monitor it day by day.

902
00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:25.239
<v Speaker 7>We're preparing the case.

903
00:47:25.320 --> 00:47:28.159
<v Speaker 5>There's a trial date on the case for later this year,

904
00:47:28.280 --> 00:47:30.360
<v Speaker 5>so you know we will we have a schedule and everything.

905
00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:35.760
<v Speaker 5>But part of this really is the American people getting

906
00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:38.280
<v Speaker 5>to see with their own eyes the way this administration

907
00:47:38.440 --> 00:47:41.159
<v Speaker 5>says one thing but then won't really back it up

908
00:47:41.360 --> 00:47:43.199
<v Speaker 5>and tries to outrun accountability.

909
00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:45.360
<v Speaker 7>And what we know about the American.

910
00:47:44.960 --> 00:47:47.800
<v Speaker 5>People is that the vast majority of people in this country,

911
00:47:47.840 --> 00:47:49.960
<v Speaker 5>regardless of whether they agree with each other on a

912
00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:53.599
<v Speaker 5>lot of things, they don't think that office holders and

913
00:47:53.639 --> 00:47:55.840
<v Speaker 5>people that are presenting before courts and people that are

914
00:47:55.880 --> 00:48:00.559
<v Speaker 5>presenting before Congress should be making incorrect and untruthful statements.

915
00:48:00.599 --> 00:48:02.519
<v Speaker 5>And so I think this is one of really those

916
00:48:02.519 --> 00:48:04.800
<v Speaker 5>things that's captured the imagination of a whole lot of

917
00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:07.800
<v Speaker 5>people across the political spectrum because of what we've seen,

918
00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:09.800
<v Speaker 5>which just briefly, I think you wanted to talk about

919
00:48:09.800 --> 00:48:12.880
<v Speaker 5>the IRS settlement which emanated, you know, which came out

920
00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:16.519
<v Speaker 5>of this Florida case that the Trump organization filed against

921
00:48:16.519 --> 00:48:19.159
<v Speaker 5>the IRS, and then Trump came out and President Trump

922
00:48:19.239 --> 00:48:22.000
<v Speaker 5>came out and announced I've sued myself. Well, that's not

923
00:48:22.039 --> 00:48:24.159
<v Speaker 5>a real good way to get the federal courts to

924
00:48:24.239 --> 00:48:28.360
<v Speaker 5>be excited. You have to have actual adversity in cases

925
00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:31.280
<v Speaker 5>and controversy in this country. And so what we did

926
00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:33.880
<v Speaker 5>in that case was we represented a range of former

927
00:48:33.920 --> 00:48:36.880
<v Speaker 5>officials that had served in IRS or in Treasury, had

928
00:48:36.920 --> 00:48:40.760
<v Speaker 5>served both Republicans and Democratic administrations to explain to the

929
00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:43.679
<v Speaker 5>court the various options that the court had. The Court

930
00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:47.320
<v Speaker 5>ended up taking those options, appointing Independent and Meki to ride,

931
00:48:47.480 --> 00:48:49.360
<v Speaker 5>you know, really ended up taking a lot of that,

932
00:48:49.400 --> 00:48:50.639
<v Speaker 5>we believe from the briefs.

933
00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:52.800
<v Speaker 7>And then at the same time, we were very pleased

934
00:48:52.840 --> 00:48:53.400
<v Speaker 7>to see.

935
00:48:53.159 --> 00:48:57.000
<v Speaker 5>Thirty five federal judges, former federal judges, judges that had

936
00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:00.239
<v Speaker 5>been appointed by Republicans and Democrats file a pay were

937
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:02.840
<v Speaker 5>in the case, really asking the court to consider whether

938
00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:06.440
<v Speaker 5>the Trump organization had engaged in fraud on the court.

939
00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:09.960
<v Speaker 5>And that's where the fireworks in that matter obviously have been.

940
00:49:10.960 --> 00:49:13.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean really seem to I would have said,

941
00:49:13.119 --> 00:49:15.119
<v Speaker 2>stopped them, called in their tracks, but of course they're

942
00:49:15.159 --> 00:49:17.840
<v Speaker 2>pretending that this is over, at least in the slush

943
00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:21.079
<v Speaker 2>fund case, and it sounds like continuing. I mean, how

944
00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:23.519
<v Speaker 2>do you see it seems like an interesting case study.

945
00:49:23.559 --> 00:49:27.400
<v Speaker 2>We talk so often about stopping this administration, about the

946
00:49:27.480 --> 00:49:29.280
<v Speaker 2>role of the courts, but it seems like this is

947
00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:32.840
<v Speaker 2>a case study in both stopping them in court. You

948
00:49:32.960 --> 00:49:36.519
<v Speaker 2>did get this injunction against them, but yet that had

949
00:49:36.519 --> 00:49:41.480
<v Speaker 2>a wider ramification and push politically the acting Attorney General

950
00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:43.960
<v Speaker 2>to at least pretend that he was stopping all of this. So,

951
00:49:44.239 --> 00:49:46.039
<v Speaker 2>I mean, talk to me more. I want to ask

952
00:49:46.119 --> 00:49:48.119
<v Speaker 2>more about how you get clients, because I think that's

953
00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:50.599
<v Speaker 2>an interesting part of all of this and really part

954
00:49:50.639 --> 00:49:53.239
<v Speaker 2>that's often not reported on. But talk to me more

955
00:49:53.280 --> 00:49:56.840
<v Speaker 2>generally about how have you seen this work, the sort

956
00:49:56.880 --> 00:50:00.199
<v Speaker 2>of combo of litigation and political pressure and getting them

957
00:50:00.199 --> 00:50:03.320
<v Speaker 2>to back off, at least publicly as you continue to fight.

958
00:50:03.400 --> 00:50:05.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you're not just a litigation group, of course,

959
00:50:05.920 --> 00:50:09.199
<v Speaker 2>you're engaged in trying to stop an administration that's intent

960
00:50:09.320 --> 00:50:12.639
<v Speaker 2>on well destroying democracy, creating a fund to shut down

961
00:50:12.679 --> 00:50:13.440
<v Speaker 2>its critics.

962
00:50:13.880 --> 00:50:16.440
<v Speaker 5>Every single day we see that, we say it's courts

963
00:50:16.480 --> 00:50:20.199
<v Speaker 5>plus people, and we always are very clear eyed that

964
00:50:20.280 --> 00:50:23.440
<v Speaker 5>the courts are hugely important tool and they're a tool

965
00:50:23.519 --> 00:50:26.119
<v Speaker 5>that we should not underestimate. Even as one may be

966
00:50:26.159 --> 00:50:28.800
<v Speaker 5>frustrated with some of the decisions out of the US

967
00:50:28.840 --> 00:50:31.199
<v Speaker 5>Supreme Court, the courts have been a huge tool. They're

968
00:50:31.239 --> 00:50:33.800
<v Speaker 5>protecting people every single day, and at the end of

969
00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:35.559
<v Speaker 5>the day, it is going to be the people. And

970
00:50:35.639 --> 00:50:37.960
<v Speaker 5>so our work at democracy for it is really aimed

971
00:50:38.039 --> 00:50:40.920
<v Speaker 5>at using both the courts and the people. But to

972
00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:45.119
<v Speaker 5>be clear, for us, the courts are a major way

973
00:50:45.159 --> 00:50:47.960
<v Speaker 5>that people can have their voices heard. Now we have

974
00:50:48.079 --> 00:50:51.480
<v Speaker 5>seen over and over again that the Act, you know,

975
00:50:51.519 --> 00:50:53.559
<v Speaker 5>we have a saying around here. You know, if you

976
00:50:53.599 --> 00:50:56.639
<v Speaker 5>don't fight, you can't win. And we have seen over

977
00:50:56.719 --> 00:50:59.639
<v Speaker 5>and over that the act of filing a lawsuit on

978
00:50:59.679 --> 00:51:02.960
<v Speaker 5>behalf of brave clients who are willing to get into

979
00:51:03.039 --> 00:51:08.119
<v Speaker 5>court with us, that that action has often delayed or

980
00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:11.760
<v Speaker 5>stopped the administration in their tracks even before we get

981
00:51:11.800 --> 00:51:15.199
<v Speaker 5>court orders. So some examples on that. We filed a

982
00:51:15.280 --> 00:51:18.320
<v Speaker 5>case to block the administration's attempt to cut off funding

983
00:51:18.639 --> 00:51:21.760
<v Speaker 5>for K through twelve education and higher education based on

984
00:51:21.920 --> 00:51:24.760
<v Speaker 5>teaching real history. They said, if you don't align with

985
00:51:24.840 --> 00:51:28.000
<v Speaker 5>the White House's views on civil rights or you know

986
00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:31.000
<v Speaker 5>you're you're gonna you don't get your funding. We filed

987
00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:33.280
<v Speaker 5>a case in federal court before a judge that President

988
00:51:33.320 --> 00:51:36.400
<v Speaker 5>Trump himself nominated. We won a court order on behalf

989
00:51:36.440 --> 00:51:39.440
<v Speaker 5>of our brave clients in that case, finding that this letter,

990
00:51:39.519 --> 00:51:41.239
<v Speaker 5>this dear colleague letter, was unlawful.

991
00:51:41.480 --> 00:51:43.239
<v Speaker 7>But the administration didn't even appeal that.

992
00:51:43.639 --> 00:51:46.039
<v Speaker 5>They who are the letter up walked it back and

993
00:51:46.320 --> 00:51:49.360
<v Speaker 5>you know everything is blocked now. We see that a

994
00:51:49.400 --> 00:51:52.239
<v Speaker 5>lot with our funding freeze case. We are still actively

995
00:51:52.280 --> 00:51:56.239
<v Speaker 5>litigating it. It's on appeal. We blocked this nationwide funding freeze.

996
00:51:56.280 --> 00:51:58.480
<v Speaker 5>We had to go to court to block it. But

997
00:51:58.559 --> 00:52:00.480
<v Speaker 5>what you saw was that the action of going to

998
00:52:00.519 --> 00:52:03.400
<v Speaker 5>court and having a federal judge very early early days

999
00:52:03.400 --> 00:52:06.360
<v Speaker 5>of the administration say you know what is happening here,

1000
00:52:06.440 --> 00:52:09.599
<v Speaker 5>this looks completely arbitrary. That actually put the White House

1001
00:52:09.639 --> 00:52:11.760
<v Speaker 5>in a difficult spot in their first White House press

1002
00:52:11.840 --> 00:52:14.559
<v Speaker 5>or where they had to show up and start defending

1003
00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:17.519
<v Speaker 5>why people's Medicaid portals were closed and why meals on

1004
00:52:17.519 --> 00:52:20.079
<v Speaker 5>wheels might not be working in a community. And so

1005
00:52:20.440 --> 00:52:23.519
<v Speaker 5>this is really a core tool, and it's a tool

1006
00:52:23.559 --> 00:52:27.199
<v Speaker 5>I think that is underappreciated people that say that their

1007
00:52:27.360 --> 00:52:30.639
<v Speaker 5>strategy is they're going to try to work with the administration,

1008
00:52:30.880 --> 00:52:32.920
<v Speaker 5>They're going to try to do deals with the administration.

1009
00:52:32.960 --> 00:52:34.679
<v Speaker 5>I mean, I can talk a lot about how I

1010
00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:36.639
<v Speaker 5>don't think that strategy is going to pay off for people.

1011
00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:39.599
<v Speaker 5>But even if you have that strategy, the way you

1012
00:52:39.679 --> 00:52:43.199
<v Speaker 5>get to the negotiating table is to assert your rights

1013
00:52:43.199 --> 00:52:45.000
<v Speaker 5>in court and to file a lawsuit. And we see

1014
00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:46.559
<v Speaker 5>that in our courts every single day.

1015
00:52:47.000 --> 00:52:48.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and we've seen that over and over with those

1016
00:52:48.760 --> 00:52:51.480
<v Speaker 2>who have tried to negotiate that they think they're giving

1017
00:52:51.519 --> 00:52:54.119
<v Speaker 2>an inch. And then of course the administration says, look,

1018
00:52:54.119 --> 00:52:57.360
<v Speaker 2>how weak these people are. Let's just ask exactly this

1019
00:52:57.519 --> 00:52:59.840
<v Speaker 2>has seen that with the law firms, with the universities,

1020
00:53:00.079 --> 00:53:03.239
<v Speaker 2>and your strategy. I think of saying this is illegal,

1021
00:53:03.480 --> 00:53:05.199
<v Speaker 2>you know, beginning with that, that puts you in a

1022
00:53:05.280 --> 00:53:08.519
<v Speaker 2>much better negotiating place. I mean, I also just want

1023
00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:11.880
<v Speaker 2>to emphasize too, what you said, which is, although you

1024
00:53:11.920 --> 00:53:15.880
<v Speaker 2>know this is litigation and there is an aspect that's negotiation,

1025
00:53:16.039 --> 00:53:18.400
<v Speaker 2>it also is publicity that this is. You know, so

1026
00:53:18.559 --> 00:53:21.679
<v Speaker 2>much of the fact that the slush fund is being

1027
00:53:21.719 --> 00:53:24.079
<v Speaker 2>covered in this fake deal with the IRS, which is,

1028
00:53:24.119 --> 00:53:26.480
<v Speaker 2>as you said, really a deal of Donald Trump and

1029
00:53:26.559 --> 00:53:29.800
<v Speaker 2>himself and there's no real lawsuit there. All of that

1030
00:53:29.920 --> 00:53:33.079
<v Speaker 2>was exposed through the litigation. So that's why I think

1031
00:53:33.119 --> 00:53:37.320
<v Speaker 2>this is so important. I mean this, Yeah, I think in.

1032
00:53:37.280 --> 00:53:41.719
<v Speaker 5>This media environment where there's such sensationalism and their algorithms

1033
00:53:41.719 --> 00:53:44.280
<v Speaker 5>are feeding you things, you know, one thing we have

1034
00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:47.559
<v Speaker 5>found is that a way, not always but a pretty

1035
00:53:47.559 --> 00:53:50.679
<v Speaker 5>surefire way to cut through a lot of the noise

1036
00:53:50.760 --> 00:53:53.639
<v Speaker 5>and to really focus the public on what is actually

1037
00:53:53.679 --> 00:53:58.880
<v Speaker 5>happening is through bringing litigation. Because the litigation, the facts

1038
00:53:58.920 --> 00:54:02.920
<v Speaker 5>come out. A break over Garcia, right, everybody remembers mister Garcia.

1039
00:54:03.280 --> 00:54:07.079
<v Speaker 5>His entire story blew up this idea that the White

1040
00:54:07.079 --> 00:54:08.599
<v Speaker 5>House had that they were going to be able to

1041
00:54:08.599 --> 00:54:11.199
<v Speaker 5>remove people from the country without any process, and that

1042
00:54:11.239 --> 00:54:13.679
<v Speaker 5>the American people weren't going to care because people got

1043
00:54:13.719 --> 00:54:17.039
<v Speaker 5>to know mister Garcia's situation and this story, and that

1044
00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:19.599
<v Speaker 5>doesn't happen if you don't file the lawsuits.

1045
00:54:20.239 --> 00:54:22.239
<v Speaker 2>And you know, it's such an important point that I

1046
00:54:22.280 --> 00:54:23.639
<v Speaker 2>want to come back to, and it was one of

1047
00:54:23.639 --> 00:54:25.280
<v Speaker 2>the first things that you said that you know, you

1048
00:54:25.360 --> 00:54:27.880
<v Speaker 2>need the clients, You need the people, the brave people

1049
00:54:27.880 --> 00:54:29.519
<v Speaker 2>who are going to stand up and say this is

1050
00:54:29.559 --> 00:54:32.440
<v Speaker 2>illegal and I've been harmed. And I think that isn't

1051
00:54:32.440 --> 00:54:36.559
<v Speaker 2>something that maybe even listeners of this podcast or those

1052
00:54:36.599 --> 00:54:39.840
<v Speaker 2>who are watching the news more generally always understand about

1053
00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:42.079
<v Speaker 2>the way our courts work. You know, it's not like,

1054
00:54:42.159 --> 00:54:43.880
<v Speaker 2>at least in this country, that you could come in

1055
00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:47.559
<v Speaker 2>and say you've acted unconstitutionally in some abstract idea. You

1056
00:54:47.639 --> 00:54:50.599
<v Speaker 2>need an individual who's been harmed. And that's one of

1057
00:54:50.639 --> 00:54:54.320
<v Speaker 2>the real successes that you've had in these lawsuits, both

1058
00:54:54.360 --> 00:54:56.920
<v Speaker 2>in the irs case but also in the slush fund case,

1059
00:54:56.920 --> 00:54:59.559
<v Speaker 2>and finding the actual people who have been harmed. So

1060
00:54:59.599 --> 00:55:01.559
<v Speaker 2>talk to me more about that, like how do you

1061
00:55:02.039 --> 00:55:04.960
<v Speaker 2>find clients? You know, what's it like for them to

1062
00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:07.639
<v Speaker 2>stand up to the administration. They of course need to

1063
00:55:07.639 --> 00:55:10.159
<v Speaker 2>give their names. Tell us about that about these hero

1064
00:55:10.360 --> 00:55:13.719
<v Speaker 2>kind of unsung heroes of so much of the resistance

1065
00:55:13.760 --> 00:55:15.199
<v Speaker 2>to Trump right now, they are.

1066
00:55:15.079 --> 00:55:18.920
<v Speaker 5>The heroes, and we, you know, we really want to

1067
00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:21.360
<v Speaker 5>lift up the role that ordinary people.

1068
00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:23.920
<v Speaker 7>Of course I don't think they're ordinary. I think they're extraordinary, but.

1069
00:55:23.840 --> 00:55:26.760
<v Speaker 5>Just people that are living in all different walks of

1070
00:55:26.800 --> 00:55:29.760
<v Speaker 5>life who have said, you know, I can see what's

1071
00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:31.800
<v Speaker 5>happening to my community, I can see what's happening to

1072
00:55:31.800 --> 00:55:33.559
<v Speaker 5>my family, I can see what's happening in my country,

1073
00:55:33.599 --> 00:55:35.440
<v Speaker 5>and I want to do something about it. It really

1074
00:55:35.519 --> 00:55:38.320
<v Speaker 5>is the thing that motivates us every day, that motivates

1075
00:55:38.320 --> 00:55:38.719
<v Speaker 5>our team.

1076
00:55:39.280 --> 00:55:42.480
<v Speaker 7>So sometimes clients, in many instances, clients come to us.

1077
00:55:42.559 --> 00:55:45.760
<v Speaker 5>I mean, you know, when Elon Musk was running through

1078
00:55:45.920 --> 00:55:49.039
<v Speaker 5>Washington decimating our civil servants, right the people that have

1079
00:55:49.119 --> 00:55:52.039
<v Speaker 5>dedicated their careers to serving the American public, there was

1080
00:55:52.079 --> 00:55:54.559
<v Speaker 5>a big panic about you know, what were they to do?

1081
00:55:54.840 --> 00:55:59.000
<v Speaker 5>How were they to respond? So in many instances clients

1082
00:55:59.039 --> 00:56:02.639
<v Speaker 5>do come to us, But in some instances, people don't

1083
00:56:02.679 --> 00:56:04.840
<v Speaker 5>know how to find a lawyer, they don't know that

1084
00:56:04.880 --> 00:56:08.960
<v Speaker 5>they can be represented free of charge. And also because

1085
00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:11.000
<v Speaker 5>of the way and I know your audience follows this,

1086
00:56:11.440 --> 00:56:14.199
<v Speaker 5>because of the way the laws have been interpreted, sometimes

1087
00:56:14.239 --> 00:56:17.679
<v Speaker 5>a single individual isn't actually the only planet that you need.

1088
00:56:17.719 --> 00:56:19.000
<v Speaker 7>Because we want to make sure.

1089
00:56:18.800 --> 00:56:21.239
<v Speaker 5>That we can get relief for everyone in the country,

1090
00:56:21.639 --> 00:56:25.280
<v Speaker 5>and the courts increasingly are looking at sort of like

1091
00:56:25.320 --> 00:56:26.679
<v Speaker 5>how widespread the harm is?

1092
00:56:26.719 --> 00:56:28.840
<v Speaker 7>How can we demonstrate that? So we do a lot

1093
00:56:28.880 --> 00:56:29.199
<v Speaker 7>of work.

1094
00:56:29.239 --> 00:56:31.679
<v Speaker 5>I mean, we represent a lot of associations, a lot

1095
00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:35.480
<v Speaker 5>of groups that have members who are harmed by these

1096
00:56:35.519 --> 00:56:39.920
<v Speaker 5>unlawful actions, but that can demonstrate that that harm is widespread,

1097
00:56:39.960 --> 00:56:42.239
<v Speaker 5>which helps us when court orders that can help more

1098
00:56:42.280 --> 00:56:44.400
<v Speaker 5>people as opposed to just you know, helping one or

1099
00:56:44.440 --> 00:56:48.280
<v Speaker 5>two individuals, and a lot of that work. You know,

1100
00:56:48.400 --> 00:56:51.000
<v Speaker 5>now it's much easier. A year and a half into this,

1101
00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:54.320
<v Speaker 5>when the administration first came on the scene and was

1102
00:56:54.400 --> 00:56:57.559
<v Speaker 5>really doing such harm to people, there was a lot

1103
00:56:57.639 --> 00:57:02.119
<v Speaker 5>of fear among organizations if we cross them, what are

1104
00:57:02.119 --> 00:57:02.679
<v Speaker 5>they going to do?

1105
00:57:02.719 --> 00:57:02.920
<v Speaker 7>Well?

1106
00:57:02.920 --> 00:57:05.320
<v Speaker 5>What the problem with the way the administration has operated

1107
00:57:05.320 --> 00:57:08.039
<v Speaker 5>with their overreach is the only thing that's really won.

1108
00:57:08.280 --> 00:57:10.559
<v Speaker 5>The only way you really can get your way with

1109
00:57:10.559 --> 00:57:13.320
<v Speaker 5>this administration right now has been to sue them. So

1110
00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:16.159
<v Speaker 5>now a lot of institutions or more institutions are seeing that,

1111
00:57:16.239 --> 00:57:18.840
<v Speaker 5>which has been helpful in making sure we can make

1112
00:57:18.880 --> 00:57:21.400
<v Speaker 5>sure that people and communities can get into court.

1113
00:57:21.679 --> 00:57:22.800
<v Speaker 7>But there is a lot of fear.

1114
00:57:22.840 --> 00:57:25.920
<v Speaker 5>I mean, people are very afraid because the administration is

1115
00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:28.719
<v Speaker 5>wanting them to be afraid. But I will tell you

1116
00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:31.360
<v Speaker 5>we have seen in our cases that litigation has actually

1117
00:57:31.400 --> 00:57:34.920
<v Speaker 5>been a protectant against people. I say all the time,

1118
00:57:35.000 --> 00:57:38.400
<v Speaker 5>this administration knows what to do with weakness, they don't

1119
00:57:38.440 --> 00:57:40.840
<v Speaker 5>always know what to do with strength. I mean, they

1120
00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:43.800
<v Speaker 5>will come after people no fault of their own, including

1121
00:57:43.840 --> 00:57:46.239
<v Speaker 5>incredibly buried and courageous people. So I'm not saying it's

1122
00:57:46.239 --> 00:57:49.760
<v Speaker 5>one hundred percent, but in general, in general, they are

1123
00:57:49.840 --> 00:57:53.400
<v Speaker 5>much more interested in targets that they believe will capitulate

1124
00:57:53.559 --> 00:57:56.679
<v Speaker 5>or will pull back, as opposed to people and communities

1125
00:57:56.679 --> 00:57:59.000
<v Speaker 5>that will confront them in court. And that's really been

1126
00:57:59.360 --> 00:58:01.440
<v Speaker 5>the north star for a lot of our clients.

1127
00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:04.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and of course the litigation that we're talking about

1128
00:58:04.519 --> 00:58:07.199
<v Speaker 2>the creation of a slush fund to aid your allies

1129
00:58:07.599 --> 00:58:10.599
<v Speaker 2>Trump allies and to shut down his opponents. What a

1130
00:58:10.639 --> 00:58:14.519
<v Speaker 2>perfect example of the threat that people feel. But also,

1131
00:58:14.679 --> 00:58:17.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean, what a great point that litigation is actually

1132
00:58:17.559 --> 00:58:19.719
<v Speaker 2>what pushes them back. I mean, when you look at

1133
00:58:19.719 --> 00:58:22.840
<v Speaker 2>those who have caved in the universities I'm thinking of

1134
00:58:22.920 --> 00:58:25.599
<v Speaker 2>in particular, and of course to the law firms, those

1135
00:58:25.719 --> 00:58:28.960
<v Speaker 2>universities who have fought back have often won, and those

1136
00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:31.519
<v Speaker 2>who behave have been asked for more and more. And

1137
00:58:31.559 --> 00:58:34.840
<v Speaker 2>so when people you know that at my university or

1138
00:58:34.840 --> 00:58:37.079
<v Speaker 2>at others, are asking should we fight or should we

1139
00:58:37.239 --> 00:58:40.280
<v Speaker 2>back down, it's like there is no you know, partially

1140
00:58:40.360 --> 00:58:43.239
<v Speaker 2>backing down, there is no compromise. They're going to just

1141
00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:46.000
<v Speaker 2>demand more and more. In litigation is the thing that

1142
00:58:46.039 --> 00:58:48.519
<v Speaker 2>actually protects you. It's not to say you can't negotiate,

1143
00:58:48.880 --> 00:58:51.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, once you begin to litigate and you know,

1144
00:58:51.079 --> 00:58:53.679
<v Speaker 2>maybe you could make a reasonable settlement then, but backing

1145
00:58:53.679 --> 00:58:55.360
<v Speaker 2>down is about the worst thing you can do in

1146
00:58:55.360 --> 00:58:58.599
<v Speaker 2>the face of such a bully that's trying to destroy democracy.

1147
00:58:59.079 --> 00:59:01.519
<v Speaker 5>Well, one thing we say is, you know the cost

1148
00:59:01.760 --> 00:59:05.119
<v Speaker 5>of inaction and the cost of action, and right now

1149
00:59:05.639 --> 00:59:08.599
<v Speaker 5>there is a lot of people afraid of how costly

1150
00:59:08.639 --> 00:59:10.559
<v Speaker 5>what the consequences would be for pushing.

1151
00:59:10.320 --> 00:59:12.840
<v Speaker 7>Back or for acting and their right to be afraid.

1152
00:59:12.920 --> 00:59:15.519
<v Speaker 5>This is a really scary time. But what we know

1153
00:59:15.599 --> 00:59:18.360
<v Speaker 5>about this time, and what the real risk assessments would show,

1154
00:59:18.400 --> 00:59:22.440
<v Speaker 5>is that the cost of inaction is higher than the

1155
00:59:22.480 --> 00:59:26.480
<v Speaker 5>cost of action. And I think that sometimes in these discussions,

1156
00:59:26.480 --> 00:59:29.880
<v Speaker 5>whether they're in boardrooms at universities or at companies, the

1157
00:59:29.920 --> 00:59:33.920
<v Speaker 5>cost of inaction gets minimized. And when you're looking at

1158
00:59:34.280 --> 00:59:37.559
<v Speaker 5>a political movement and an administration in this country that

1159
00:59:37.760 --> 00:59:40.719
<v Speaker 5>does not want to be held accountable to the constitution,

1160
00:59:41.239 --> 00:59:43.599
<v Speaker 5>that does not want a democracy that is available to

1161
00:59:43.639 --> 00:59:47.039
<v Speaker 5>all people, the cost of not doing anything or far

1162
00:59:47.119 --> 00:59:50.760
<v Speaker 5>far higher than the cost of stepping up and being

1163
00:59:51.039 --> 00:59:53.880
<v Speaker 5>part of the work to defend these rights and this

1164
00:59:53.960 --> 00:59:54.719
<v Speaker 5>form of government.

1165
00:59:55.320 --> 00:59:58.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, let's talk about action and defense of democracy. Can

1166
00:59:58.440 --> 01:00:00.360
<v Speaker 2>you tell us just some of I mean, of course,

1167
01:00:00.639 --> 01:00:02.559
<v Speaker 2>one of the huge stories of the moment is that

1168
01:00:02.639 --> 01:00:06.880
<v Speaker 2>Donald Trump has given a speech about threatening our elections,

1169
01:00:07.159 --> 01:00:09.920
<v Speaker 2>claiming that they are insecure, and of course using that

1170
01:00:10.039 --> 01:00:14.679
<v Speaker 2>as an excuse potentially to continue to cheat himself. He's tried,

1171
01:00:14.719 --> 01:00:19.360
<v Speaker 2>through various proposed legislation to limit the right to vote

1172
01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:21.480
<v Speaker 2>of his opponents. And I know that you have a

1173
01:00:21.480 --> 01:00:25.360
<v Speaker 2>plethora of pieces of litigation, a number of lawsuits that

1174
01:00:25.400 --> 01:00:28.639
<v Speaker 2>are challenging this attempt to shut down democracy, both when

1175
01:00:28.639 --> 01:00:31.039
<v Speaker 2>it comes to protecting our votes and also to get

1176
01:00:31.079 --> 01:00:33.800
<v Speaker 2>transparency when it comes to some of the stuff that's

1177
01:00:33.840 --> 01:00:35.639
<v Speaker 2>going on behind the scenes that we got a little

1178
01:00:35.679 --> 01:00:38.840
<v Speaker 2>window in his speech recently. So tell us what kinds

1179
01:00:38.880 --> 01:00:41.760
<v Speaker 2>of cases are you bringing here to protect our democracy

1180
01:00:41.840 --> 01:00:42.199
<v Speaker 2>and our argy?

1181
01:00:42.280 --> 01:00:42.840
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, I think the.

1182
01:00:42.800 --> 01:00:44.599
<v Speaker 5>Main I think, yeah, I think the main thing that's

1183
01:00:44.639 --> 01:00:46.320
<v Speaker 5>really important for people that are tuning in to know

1184
01:00:46.559 --> 01:00:51.639
<v Speaker 5>is that, largely speaking, the president's attempts to engage in

1185
01:00:51.679 --> 01:00:56.280
<v Speaker 5>these conspiracy theories, the president's attempts to intimidate and try

1186
01:00:56.280 --> 01:00:58.599
<v Speaker 5>to get voter rolled, all those things, they are largely

1187
01:00:58.679 --> 01:01:02.880
<v Speaker 5>being blocked in the courts. And that's no surprise because

1188
01:01:02.920 --> 01:01:06.519
<v Speaker 5>the Constitution provides no basis for the president to have

1189
01:01:06.559 --> 01:01:08.440
<v Speaker 5>a role in our elections like that. Just is what

1190
01:01:08.480 --> 01:01:11.440
<v Speaker 5>happened two hundred and fifty years ago. We didn't throw

1191
01:01:11.480 --> 01:01:13.599
<v Speaker 5>off the reigns of monarchy to put a president in

1192
01:01:13.679 --> 01:01:16.440
<v Speaker 5>charge of elections, and that's how you know, you know,

1193
01:01:16.480 --> 01:01:18.440
<v Speaker 5>and that didn't change within the ten years between the

1194
01:01:18.440 --> 01:01:21.360
<v Speaker 5>declaration of independence and when the Constitution comes about. So

1195
01:01:21.639 --> 01:01:23.880
<v Speaker 5>there's no real role for the president here, and the

1196
01:01:23.920 --> 01:01:27.199
<v Speaker 5>federal courts have been pretty uniformly seeing it for what

1197
01:01:27.239 --> 01:01:29.159
<v Speaker 5>it is. So in cases that we are not involved

1198
01:01:29.199 --> 01:01:31.280
<v Speaker 5>in that, I'll start with those first. You know, the

1199
01:01:31.320 --> 01:01:34.199
<v Speaker 5>Department of Justice, I believe is zero for sixteen in

1200
01:01:34.280 --> 01:01:37.440
<v Speaker 5>their attempts to get data from the states. Now we

1201
01:01:37.519 --> 01:01:41.719
<v Speaker 5>have blocked alongside we are counsel at Democracy Forward, alongside

1202
01:01:41.719 --> 01:01:44.320
<v Speaker 5>our friends at CREWE and the Fair Election Center, we

1203
01:01:44.360 --> 01:01:48.119
<v Speaker 5>have blocked the president's attempt to use this modified SAVE

1204
01:01:48.360 --> 01:01:52.159
<v Speaker 5>database within the Department of Homeland Security to aggregate information

1205
01:01:52.199 --> 01:01:53.599
<v Speaker 5>and potentially to use that.

1206
01:01:53.840 --> 01:01:56.239
<v Speaker 7>To remove voters from the roles. We've blocked that by

1207
01:01:56.280 --> 01:01:57.000
<v Speaker 7>a federal court.

1208
01:01:57.039 --> 01:02:00.440
<v Speaker 5>We're fighting literally every day on their complains alliance with

1209
01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:03.679
<v Speaker 5>that court order, but that has also been blocked. We

1210
01:02:03.719 --> 01:02:07.800
<v Speaker 5>have exposed in another federal litigation that when DOGE was

1211
01:02:07.840 --> 01:02:13.239
<v Speaker 5>in Washington, they were accessing individual social security information and

1212
01:02:13.840 --> 01:02:16.840
<v Speaker 5>that a DOGE team members signed a voter data agreement

1213
01:02:16.880 --> 01:02:20.800
<v Speaker 5>with a third party organization that, by the Department of

1214
01:02:20.880 --> 01:02:23.880
<v Speaker 5>Justice's own telling, was engaged in seeking to overturn state

1215
01:02:23.880 --> 01:02:27.360
<v Speaker 5>election results. So we have won a major discovery order

1216
01:02:27.400 --> 01:02:29.679
<v Speaker 5>to get to the bottom of what's happening there. And

1217
01:02:29.679 --> 01:02:32.360
<v Speaker 5>then right after the president's speech, just hours after the

1218
01:02:32.360 --> 01:02:35.559
<v Speaker 5>president's speech, we filed suit because the government has been

1219
01:02:35.639 --> 01:02:39.039
<v Speaker 5>with holding documents from the FBI, the DOJ, and the

1220
01:02:39.079 --> 01:02:41.440
<v Speaker 5>OD and I the very agencies that the President was

1221
01:02:41.440 --> 01:02:44.800
<v Speaker 5>trying to put at play. They've been withholding documents about

1222
01:02:45.119 --> 01:02:47.320
<v Speaker 5>all of these types of conspiracies that of course we

1223
01:02:47.400 --> 01:02:50.360
<v Speaker 5>know the documents will show that these are just conspiracies.

1224
01:02:50.440 --> 01:02:53.480
<v Speaker 5>And so you will see that type of action from US.

1225
01:02:53.559 --> 01:02:56.480
<v Speaker 5>You will see that type of action from other organizations,

1226
01:02:56.519 --> 01:02:59.639
<v Speaker 5>from the state ags. There will be swift legal action

1227
01:03:00.079 --> 01:03:03.880
<v Speaker 5>every time this administration seeks to do something to undermine

1228
01:03:03.880 --> 01:03:06.119
<v Speaker 5>the elections. And it's not going to be easy for

1229
01:03:06.159 --> 01:03:08.800
<v Speaker 5>the president to do this, and our constitution doesn't permit it.

1230
01:03:08.800 --> 01:03:10.840
<v Speaker 5>And I think you saw even the US Supreme Court

1231
01:03:11.360 --> 01:03:13.559
<v Speaker 5>in this last term in the Mississippi decision.

1232
01:03:13.599 --> 01:03:14.440
<v Speaker 7>I think I think it was an.

1233
01:03:14.360 --> 01:03:17.760
<v Speaker 5>Amy Coney Barrett opinion, you know, really explaining that there

1234
01:03:17.800 --> 01:03:20.960
<v Speaker 5>isn't a role for the president in some of these things.

1235
01:03:20.960 --> 01:03:23.719
<v Speaker 5>And so I think that we're feeling, you know, the lawyers.

1236
01:03:23.360 --> 01:03:25.239
<v Speaker 7>Are going to do what we need to do.

1237
01:03:25.880 --> 01:03:28.679
<v Speaker 5>But this is the type of election that every single

1238
01:03:28.719 --> 01:03:31.280
<v Speaker 5>American is going to have to vote, is going to

1239
01:03:31.320 --> 01:03:33.159
<v Speaker 5>have to make a plan to vote, and is going

1240
01:03:33.199 --> 01:03:35.800
<v Speaker 5>to have to sort of make up their minds and

1241
01:03:35.880 --> 01:03:38.679
<v Speaker 5>with their communities that we're not going to stand idly

1242
01:03:38.719 --> 01:03:42.119
<v Speaker 5>by while an administration or any other tripe of force

1243
01:03:42.320 --> 01:03:45.280
<v Speaker 5>tries to undermine our elections. And there really may be

1244
01:03:45.400 --> 01:03:48.320
<v Speaker 5>actions that people in communities need to take in forms

1245
01:03:48.320 --> 01:03:52.719
<v Speaker 5>of peaceful mass mobilizations, education campaigns, helping accompany people of

1246
01:03:52.760 --> 01:03:54.639
<v Speaker 5>the polls. Those are going to be actions that we

1247
01:03:54.679 --> 01:03:57.559
<v Speaker 5>may need to see over the coming weeks and months.

1248
01:03:57.559 --> 01:04:00.360
<v Speaker 5>And at Democracy Forward, we've invested a lot, not just

1249
01:04:00.400 --> 01:04:02.840
<v Speaker 5>in our legal work, but also in helping to support

1250
01:04:02.840 --> 01:04:05.840
<v Speaker 5>communities be able to engage in those peaceful and lawful

1251
01:04:05.840 --> 01:04:07.400
<v Speaker 5>ways to protect our democracy.

1252
01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:11.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm interested in digging into this litigation that followed the speech,

1253
01:04:11.519 --> 01:04:13.119
<v Speaker 2>because you know, I think a lot of people felt

1254
01:04:13.119 --> 01:04:16.119
<v Speaker 2>powerless listening to this thing. It was so outrageous that

1255
01:04:16.159 --> 01:04:19.559
<v Speaker 2>he's making all of these claims, both about the insecurity

1256
01:04:19.719 --> 01:04:24.239
<v Speaker 2>of our elections generally when his party loses, but I

1257
01:04:24.239 --> 01:04:27.000
<v Speaker 2>guess the security when he wins. And you know, it's

1258
01:04:27.079 --> 01:04:30.519
<v Speaker 2>just a sort of mass confusion. And yet you responded

1259
01:04:30.559 --> 01:04:33.280
<v Speaker 2>with a legal strategy and with litigation to try to

1260
01:04:33.320 --> 01:04:35.920
<v Speaker 2>figure out what's really going on here behind the curtain

1261
01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:38.480
<v Speaker 2>that we know just from what we're seeing that there's

1262
01:04:38.519 --> 01:04:42.400
<v Speaker 2>pure chaos and there must be even more malicious activity

1263
01:04:42.440 --> 01:04:44.280
<v Speaker 2>going on behind the scenes. So how are you going

1264
01:04:44.320 --> 01:04:46.760
<v Speaker 2>about trying to get this information? You know, tell us

1265
01:04:46.760 --> 01:04:49.480
<v Speaker 2>more about how this lawsuit, in this litigation will work.

1266
01:04:49.480 --> 01:04:51.519
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's one of those areas where I was

1267
01:04:51.599 --> 01:04:55.039
<v Speaker 2>especially impressed to see you doing this because I thought, like, well,

1268
01:04:55.079 --> 01:04:58.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, the administration at least claims it's a black box.

1269
01:04:58.039 --> 01:05:00.800
<v Speaker 2>They don't. The whole way that corruption works, you know,

1270
01:05:00.920 --> 01:05:04.719
<v Speaker 2>the Nixon administration earlier is the presidents put veils of

1271
01:05:04.760 --> 01:05:08.000
<v Speaker 2>secrecy around themselves, and of course he's both wanting to

1272
01:05:08.079 --> 01:05:10.880
<v Speaker 2>tell us about the insecurity of our elections and not

1273
01:05:10.960 --> 01:05:13.360
<v Speaker 2>show us any proof of that. And you're really trying

1274
01:05:13.360 --> 01:05:16.679
<v Speaker 2>to pierce that veil of secrecy to get transparency, to

1275
01:05:16.679 --> 01:05:18.960
<v Speaker 2>get the truth. How are you doing that which we've been.

1276
01:05:18.880 --> 01:05:19.320
<v Speaker 7>Able to do.

1277
01:05:19.400 --> 01:05:21.440
<v Speaker 5>I just want to say that through our litigation, we've

1278
01:05:21.440 --> 01:05:24.239
<v Speaker 5>been able to uncover so many things. We've uncovered that

1279
01:05:24.239 --> 01:05:27.400
<v Speaker 5>they were intimidating local communities that thought that they had

1280
01:05:27.440 --> 01:05:30.000
<v Speaker 5>to turn over voted data. So you know, this is

1281
01:05:30.039 --> 01:05:32.360
<v Speaker 5>really important. So the Freedom of Information Act is of

1282
01:05:32.360 --> 01:05:35.960
<v Speaker 5>course an amazing and an important tool for the American people.

1283
01:05:36.159 --> 01:05:39.119
<v Speaker 5>This is information that's in our government is the people's information.

1284
01:05:39.239 --> 01:05:42.239
<v Speaker 5>It's not the information of a particular leader or the

1285
01:05:42.239 --> 01:05:44.800
<v Speaker 5>people that follow that leader. This is the people's information.

1286
01:05:45.360 --> 01:05:47.920
<v Speaker 5>And so we have had a great success in using

1287
01:05:47.920 --> 01:05:50.719
<v Speaker 5>the Freedom of Information Act and the litigation when they

1288
01:05:50.760 --> 01:05:53.960
<v Speaker 5>don't respond and don't give over that data to force

1289
01:05:54.159 --> 01:05:57.719
<v Speaker 5>production of information. That's been very helpful to protect people's

1290
01:05:57.800 --> 01:06:01.719
<v Speaker 5>rights and to expose what is happening our other you know,

1291
01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:04.639
<v Speaker 5>our litigation cases that are not litigation under the Freedom

1292
01:06:04.639 --> 01:06:06.719
<v Speaker 5>of Information Act. You know, the courts have a way

1293
01:06:06.760 --> 01:06:08.920
<v Speaker 5>of shining a light, and so we've been able to

1294
01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:12.400
<v Speaker 5>uncover so much of this through that litigation as well.

1295
01:06:12.840 --> 01:06:15.679
<v Speaker 5>You know, Justice Lewis Brandeis had said, you know, sunlight

1296
01:06:15.840 --> 01:06:20.320
<v Speaker 5>is the best disinfectant. And even in these times where

1297
01:06:20.440 --> 01:06:23.559
<v Speaker 5>it seems that these threats are so accelerated, and this

1298
01:06:23.639 --> 01:06:26.679
<v Speaker 5>country has faced major threats before, but these are very

1299
01:06:26.719 --> 01:06:31.800
<v Speaker 5>accelerated and concerning almost unprecedented threats here, definitely unprecedented to

1300
01:06:31.800 --> 01:06:35.079
<v Speaker 5>have a president that's actively trying to keep people from

1301
01:06:35.079 --> 01:06:39.360
<v Speaker 5>being able to participate in our elections. Exposure has still

1302
01:06:39.400 --> 01:06:43.480
<v Speaker 5>been a key key way that people have been able

1303
01:06:43.480 --> 01:06:46.960
<v Speaker 5>to push back and to stop bad activity, which is

1304
01:06:47.000 --> 01:06:51.719
<v Speaker 5>of course why the administration is seeking to intimidate journalists,

1305
01:06:51.760 --> 01:06:56.039
<v Speaker 5>is seeking to intimidate storytellers, is making outlandish claims that

1306
01:06:56.079 --> 01:06:58.559
<v Speaker 5>you can't record what's happening on the public streets of

1307
01:06:58.599 --> 01:07:01.360
<v Speaker 5>your community. Of course you can, but making these claims

1308
01:07:01.360 --> 01:07:05.159
<v Speaker 5>because they don't want that transparency and exposure. And so

1309
01:07:05.280 --> 01:07:08.119
<v Speaker 5>we are really pleased and honor that we can use

1310
01:07:08.159 --> 01:07:10.679
<v Speaker 5>the tools that the law provides. Is an area of

1311
01:07:10.760 --> 01:07:13.960
<v Speaker 5>law that is still there, that is still providing these

1312
01:07:14.000 --> 01:07:15.239
<v Speaker 5>types of tools.

1313
01:07:14.840 --> 01:07:15.840
<v Speaker 7>And we're going to use them.

1314
01:07:16.360 --> 01:07:18.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, what an amazing conversation this has been. I'm going

1315
01:07:18.880 --> 01:07:21.400
<v Speaker 2>to ask you one last question before we say goodbye.

1316
01:07:21.440 --> 01:07:23.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, so much of the important work that you're

1317
01:07:23.440 --> 01:07:27.400
<v Speaker 2>doing and finding litigants and actually literally stopping this administration.

1318
01:07:27.480 --> 01:07:30.000
<v Speaker 2>I just want to emphasize that point that you really

1319
01:07:30.039 --> 01:07:33.079
<v Speaker 2>did stop the slush fund in its tracks. And you

1320
01:07:33.119 --> 01:07:36.679
<v Speaker 2>know that's led to the administration claiming that they abandoned

1321
01:07:36.679 --> 01:07:39.320
<v Speaker 2>it while it sounds like they're continuing, but you did

1322
01:07:39.320 --> 01:07:43.519
<v Speaker 2>stop it. This litigation works. You've provided information to us,

1323
01:07:43.559 --> 01:07:46.320
<v Speaker 2>You've helped make this a story that we're all aware of,

1324
01:07:46.480 --> 01:07:49.320
<v Speaker 2>as you said too, and that's been true throughout this

1325
01:07:49.519 --> 01:07:52.480
<v Speaker 2>administration and the Abrego Garcia case. The reason why we're

1326
01:07:52.519 --> 01:07:56.320
<v Speaker 2>all talking about the seventeen ninety eight Alien Enemies Act

1327
01:07:56.400 --> 01:08:00.199
<v Speaker 2>and their attempt to basically revoke due process off this

1328
01:08:00.360 --> 01:08:03.119
<v Speaker 2>ancient litigation is because somebody stood up. There was a

1329
01:08:03.159 --> 01:08:06.199
<v Speaker 2>client who was willing to push back. That's true of

1330
01:08:06.199 --> 01:08:09.280
<v Speaker 2>a break of Garcia. So tell me though, too. I mean,

1331
01:08:09.360 --> 01:08:11.320
<v Speaker 2>just as a part of what we're always talking about

1332
01:08:11.320 --> 01:08:13.719
<v Speaker 2>on this podcast is of course the threat to democracy,

1333
01:08:13.800 --> 01:08:16.720
<v Speaker 2>but also the future. I mean, this is there legislation.

1334
01:08:16.840 --> 01:08:19.319
<v Speaker 2>What would you like to see going forward for us

1335
01:08:19.359 --> 01:08:22.319
<v Speaker 2>not just to get Donald Trump out of office, but

1336
01:08:22.359 --> 01:08:25.960
<v Speaker 2>to see our democracy restored. I'll just invite you to

1337
01:08:25.960 --> 01:08:27.960
<v Speaker 2>speak more generally about what we were Yeah, I.

1338
01:08:27.960 --> 01:08:30.439
<v Speaker 5>Mean, I love this question, and I have to say

1339
01:08:30.479 --> 01:08:33.960
<v Speaker 5>that we know that it's not just about the restoration

1340
01:08:34.039 --> 01:08:37.359
<v Speaker 5>of democracy, It's really about the reimagining of democracy. Our

1341
01:08:37.439 --> 01:08:40.960
<v Speaker 5>country is an amazing country and the ideals it was

1342
01:08:41.000 --> 01:08:44.199
<v Speaker 5>founded on the way in which it was founded. For

1343
01:08:44.319 --> 01:08:47.560
<v Speaker 5>all of the setbacks and all of the injustices. It

1344
01:08:47.680 --> 01:08:50.000
<v Speaker 5>was the first country in the world that was founded

1345
01:08:50.039 --> 01:08:55.520
<v Speaker 5>on common ideals as opposed to historical accident or necessity

1346
01:08:55.960 --> 01:08:59.800
<v Speaker 5>or survival. But from the beginning of that founding, of

1347
01:08:59.800 --> 01:09:02.840
<v Speaker 5>course worse the promises and the practices didn't match up.

1348
01:09:03.159 --> 01:09:06.720
<v Speaker 5>The country was founded on stolen land. It was founded

1349
01:09:07.159 --> 01:09:11.359
<v Speaker 5>and you know, in the midst of human enslavement and

1350
01:09:11.399 --> 01:09:14.319
<v Speaker 5>in the disenfranchising of the vast majority of people that

1351
01:09:14.479 --> 01:09:17.800
<v Speaker 5>lived within the country's claimed borders, whether they were women,

1352
01:09:18.239 --> 01:09:22.159
<v Speaker 5>people of color, non property owners, couldn't vote. And so

1353
01:09:22.319 --> 01:09:24.039
<v Speaker 5>this is a moment where we have to be honest

1354
01:09:24.079 --> 01:09:27.520
<v Speaker 5>about that history. For all it's good and all it's bad,

1355
01:09:27.640 --> 01:09:29.880
<v Speaker 5>and I just listed a lot of the bad pieces

1356
01:09:30.359 --> 01:09:32.239
<v Speaker 5>of our history, and we have to be honest that

1357
01:09:32.279 --> 01:09:35.800
<v Speaker 5>it has been ordinary people across this country that have

1358
01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:40.640
<v Speaker 5>pushed to make promises actually practices, that have pushed to

1359
01:09:40.760 --> 01:09:44.399
<v Speaker 5>really realize a democracy that is made to hold all

1360
01:09:44.439 --> 01:09:47.720
<v Speaker 5>of us. And this is an amazing moment where as

1361
01:09:47.800 --> 01:09:51.920
<v Speaker 5>people are seeing what is at stake, and as powerful

1362
01:09:51.960 --> 01:09:55.800
<v Speaker 5>institutions have been pulling back, people have been stepping forward.

1363
01:09:55.840 --> 01:09:57.680
<v Speaker 7>And so what we want to see.

1364
01:09:57.880 --> 01:10:01.159
<v Speaker 5>Is our systems and structures really be set up to

1365
01:10:01.279 --> 01:10:03.640
<v Speaker 5>hold all of us. That means that we need to

1366
01:10:03.680 --> 01:10:07.079
<v Speaker 5>talk seriously about Supreme Court reform. It means that we

1367
01:10:07.119 --> 01:10:10.000
<v Speaker 5>need to look at things like the electoral college, or

1368
01:10:10.039 --> 01:10:12.720
<v Speaker 5>the filibuster, or a number of things that exists within

1369
01:10:12.760 --> 01:10:16.119
<v Speaker 5>our representative system that was here to try to restrict

1370
01:10:16.119 --> 01:10:20.119
<v Speaker 5>democracy as opposed to empower democracy. And then on a

1371
01:10:20.159 --> 01:10:22.479
<v Speaker 5>more granular level, there's a lot of work that needs

1372
01:10:22.479 --> 01:10:24.760
<v Speaker 5>to be done to make sure that when people dedicate

1373
01:10:24.800 --> 01:10:29.279
<v Speaker 5>their lives to serving our country as career civil servants,

1374
01:10:29.479 --> 01:10:31.680
<v Speaker 5>that there are protections for them so that they don't

1375
01:10:31.760 --> 01:10:34.960
<v Speaker 5>get treated the way our civil servants have been treated now,

1376
01:10:35.000 --> 01:10:36.680
<v Speaker 5>and so that a leader can't come in and just

1377
01:10:36.760 --> 01:10:40.079
<v Speaker 5>like eradicate the professional civil service and replace them with

1378
01:10:40.159 --> 01:10:42.800
<v Speaker 5>partisan loyalists. We need to make sure that there's more

1379
01:10:42.840 --> 01:10:48.319
<v Speaker 5>comprehensive anti corruption laws, because this country was not really

1380
01:10:48.520 --> 01:10:51.760
<v Speaker 5>did not really contemplate that the government itself would have

1381
01:10:51.840 --> 01:10:54.399
<v Speaker 5>widespread corruption. And so, as you know, our laws are

1382
01:10:54.439 --> 01:10:56.720
<v Speaker 5>set up for the government to want to root out

1383
01:10:56.800 --> 01:11:01.239
<v Speaker 5>individual instances of corruption within the government, set up for

1384
01:11:01.439 --> 01:11:04.319
<v Speaker 5>the government itself to be broadly and widely corrupt, and

1385
01:11:04.359 --> 01:11:07.479
<v Speaker 5>we now have a lot of challenges as a result

1386
01:11:07.520 --> 01:11:10.520
<v Speaker 5>of the deep corruption that we're seeing. So we're deeply

1387
01:11:10.600 --> 01:11:13.760
<v Speaker 5>hopeful about what people are doing in this moment. I

1388
01:11:13.800 --> 01:11:16.520
<v Speaker 5>think we think that it's a really hard moment and

1389
01:11:16.560 --> 01:11:19.479
<v Speaker 5>it may get worse before it gets better, but we

1390
01:11:19.520 --> 01:11:22.079
<v Speaker 5>are also deeply hopeful about what this crisis can do

1391
01:11:22.199 --> 01:11:26.479
<v Speaker 5>to catalyze real change, not just performative change, but real

1392
01:11:26.560 --> 01:11:30.680
<v Speaker 5>change that truly helps to bring about a democracy that

1393
01:11:30.720 --> 01:11:32.840
<v Speaker 5>we've never had in this country, but that so many

1394
01:11:32.880 --> 01:11:35.960
<v Speaker 5>people across so many generations have been working to achieve.

1395
01:11:36.760 --> 01:11:40.159
<v Speaker 2>What a great place to end. Absolutely in times of crisis,

1396
01:11:40.159 --> 01:11:42.880
<v Speaker 2>that's where we often find the moment to not just

1397
01:11:42.960 --> 01:11:46.159
<v Speaker 2>push back against the president causing the crisis, but to

1398
01:11:46.199 --> 01:11:49.479
<v Speaker 2>rebuild our democracy. And like you, I'm hopeful that we'll

1399
01:11:49.479 --> 01:11:52.000
<v Speaker 2>do that at this moment and in the future, and

1400
01:11:52.039 --> 01:11:54.560
<v Speaker 2>that we won't just stop Donald Trump, but that will

1401
01:11:54.600 --> 01:11:57.000
<v Speaker 2>do much more. But of course, thank you too for

1402
01:11:57.119 --> 01:12:00.520
<v Speaker 2>your work in stopping Donald Trump and the Lush fun

1403
01:12:00.600 --> 01:12:03.640
<v Speaker 2>case and so many other pieces of litigation that you

1404
01:12:03.760 --> 01:12:07.119
<v Speaker 2>and your amazing group Democracy Forward have been involved with.

1405
01:12:07.359 --> 01:12:10.880
<v Speaker 2>Sky Perryman, thanks for joining the pleasure.

1406
01:12:11.279 --> 01:12:15.159
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much outstating work, Professor. Thank you very

1407
01:12:15.239 --> 01:12:15.600
<v Speaker 1>much for that.

1408
01:12:16.319 --> 01:12:18.359
<v Speaker 2>You know It really is a pleasure to do this

1409
01:12:18.399 --> 01:12:22.119
<v Speaker 2>show with you, John every week, because we're documenting what's happening,

1410
01:12:22.119 --> 01:12:25.439
<v Speaker 2>we're being honest about it, about the brutality of ice,

1411
01:12:25.520 --> 01:12:28.439
<v Speaker 2>about an attorney general who thinks he's the personal criminal

1412
01:12:28.800 --> 01:12:31.960
<v Speaker 2>lawyer of the president, of a speech that was meant

1413
01:12:32.039 --> 01:12:35.920
<v Speaker 2>to indict the insecurity of our elections, but really revealed

1414
01:12:35.960 --> 01:12:39.680
<v Speaker 2>the president's own motivation to try to steal our elections.

1415
01:12:39.880 --> 01:12:42.039
<v Speaker 2>And then to combine it with the chance on this

1416
01:12:42.159 --> 01:12:45.680
<v Speaker 2>show to speak to, you know, somebody who maybe listeners

1417
01:12:45.720 --> 01:12:49.079
<v Speaker 2>have heard on MS now or on your show, John,

1418
01:12:49.159 --> 01:12:51.199
<v Speaker 2>but some of them, and many of them will be

1419
01:12:51.239 --> 01:12:57.239
<v Speaker 2>introduced for the first time, who's actually leading a really massive, powerful,

1420
01:12:57.359 --> 01:13:00.279
<v Speaker 2>brilliant organization with some of the best lawyers out their

1421
01:13:00.399 --> 01:13:04.680
<v Speaker 2>former Department of Justice officials. As I mentioned, I had

1422
01:13:04.680 --> 01:13:07.920
<v Speaker 2>the chance to work with Sky Perryman's team on the

1423
01:13:08.000 --> 01:13:11.800
<v Speaker 2>Terrorist Brief, which I'll add was an instance where where

1424
01:13:11.840 --> 01:13:16.000
<v Speaker 2>litigation stopped the president from acting like a dictator. And so,

1425
01:13:16.159 --> 01:13:18.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, on the one hand, it's a frightening moment,

1426
01:13:18.640 --> 01:13:21.079
<v Speaker 2>but I'm so glad that we got to have that

1427
01:13:21.119 --> 01:13:24.920
<v Speaker 2>discussion with Sky Perryman and to talk about democracy forward

1428
01:13:25.079 --> 01:13:27.600
<v Speaker 2>and you know, we'll keep going and next week we'll

1429
01:13:27.600 --> 01:13:31.319
<v Speaker 2>have David French on the show. An amazing conversation there,

1430
01:13:31.760 --> 01:13:34.279
<v Speaker 2>so what a pleasure. John. Thanks, thanks, thank you everyone

1431
01:13:34.359 --> 01:13:36.600
<v Speaker 2>for listening, and thanks for making this, by the way,

1432
01:13:37.119 --> 01:13:40.560
<v Speaker 2>not just a top podcast, but the number one trending

1433
01:13:40.640 --> 01:13:45.840
<v Speaker 2>podcast on Apple Government. And if you haven't subscribed, definitely

1434
01:13:45.880 --> 01:13:48.079
<v Speaker 2>subscribe and tell your friends about the show.

1435
01:13:48.479 --> 01:13:50.079
<v Speaker 1>I want to thank Wendy and Beyo Wolf and everyone

1436
01:13:50.079 --> 01:13:52.960
<v Speaker 1>who puts the show together, and thank you Professor. As always,

1437
01:13:52.960 --> 01:13:55.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm John Fegele Sang. We will see you next time

1438
01:13:55.239 --> 01:13:57.880
<v Speaker 1>on the open of the office.