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Speaker 1: Welcome once again to another exciting episode of The Oath

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and the Office, inspired by Odysseus. I'm John Fiegele saying,

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joined by the great Professor and the author of The

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Oath in the Office, Corey Britschneider. Corey, good to see

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you again, my highly rated friend.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much, and what a pleasure to do this

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with you. I did actually see the Odyssey, so we

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maybe have to sneak some of that in there.

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Speaker 1: I saw an IMAX last night in Englewood.

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Speaker 3: Baby.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't get imax.

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Speaker 1: Oh, Oh, you gotta go see it again. Now, you

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gotta go. That's why they make movies to see that

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in imax.

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Speaker 2: Oh. We have an amazing show, you know, our own

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odyssey against Donald Trump, and we'll talk about the details

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what's happening. And then also I just want a preview.

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I pre recorded a conversation with Sky Perryman, who is

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the CEO of Democracy Forward, and like the ACLU, they

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are really at the forefront of the fight to save

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our democracy. And we talk about, for instance, their work

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in actually succeeding in stopping this slush fund to fund

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Donald Trump's allies and to go after his opponents they

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were instrumental too and stopping this phony deal with the Irs.

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And we talk about, you know, the role of citizens

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and fighting back and how we can actually do it.

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So we're going to talk as always about the threats

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to democracy that we're facing now, this ridiculous speech that

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Donald Trump gave that was a sort of speaking threat

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to democracy, and then also how we fight back.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm a big fan of Skyperry Ben. She's done

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my Serious ExM show many times, so I can't wait

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for that. And I want to thank you, professor, for

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being so flexible now that my Serious XM show has

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moved back to the day times, which is where I

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was when I first met you. But thank you for

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those six plus years you did hard time with us

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in late night. It's been a pleasure to talk about

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this out with you in the daylight again. And I

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have to begin by asking you about Donald Trump's hateful, mendacious,

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and not entirely charismatic primetime address last week. I'm sure

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you saw it, the state of denial address about the

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desperate crisis of election integrity in America, but only when

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he's in charge. I don't know if you caught that,

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but it's never a problem. Our elections seemed to be

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fine if it's Barack Obama or Joe Biden in charge.

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But if Donald Trump's president and it's twenty twenty or

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twenty twenty six, my god, it's so rife with corruption.

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I guess he's saying democracy only breaks when Trump's holding

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the keys, Corey. But he did this to revisit his

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old grievances about the twenty twenty election while presenting newly

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declassified documents that would prove that somehow China rigged it,

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And they did the exact opposite. They actually showed that

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Russia was colluding to try to overturn an election. But

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I mean, where to begin From a constitutional perspective, Corey,

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how unusual is it for a sitting president to use

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the the institutional authority of the presidency to convene broadcast

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networks and do a primetime address on our taxpayer funded

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airwaves to relitigate a past election. We know why he's

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really doing it, But we've never seen anything like this

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theatrically in history, have we?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? You know, I'm usually looking for parallels and finding them,

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and threats to democracy and things like shutting down the

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opposition when it comes to free speech. We certainly have

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seen that from past presidents, from John Adams and Wilson,

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But have we ever seen a president use a national

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broadcast to undermine confidence in the electoral system itself, at

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least again, as you said, when it goes against him.

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But yet still, and this is one of the bizarre

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things about the speech, have confidence when it supports him.

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I mean, right, but you know, the just the bizarreness

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of all this, I have to say, let me start

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with the idea of the deep state. I mean, the

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deep state actually goes back to skepticism about the CIA

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and a lot of the secrecy that has existed in

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the American presidency, especially in the twentieth century, external skeptics

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coming in and saying, hey, there's something weird going on here.

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Let's see behind the veil. What's so strange about this

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is the rhetoric of the deep state, of people undermining

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our elections from within or minimizing you know, foreign threats,

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Like yeah, from within.

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Speaker 1: His own people, in his own He's literally talking about

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the people he hired bringing him his daily briefings, that

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it left stuff out and that like literally he wasn't

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even trying. I expect much more from the evil mind

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of Stephen Miller than this speech provise Cory, because I

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mean the smoking gun came unloaded, it was all stuff

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like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, let me cite the unitary executive theories.

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He has exerted enormous control now over the civil service,

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and yet at the same time that he claims, well,

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I have control over all of this, and is exerting

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control still. He claims there's a secret cabal within the

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government going after him. No, it's you. You are the cabal.

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And I think what's really going on is you know,

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it's revealing of what the strategy is here. Yeah, frame

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election interference. Well, who's doing the interference. It is Donald Trump.

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He is trying to subvert votes, to undermine confidence in elections,

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to get legislation thankfully that I think won't be passed past.

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And you know, there's so much going on behind the curtain.

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One of the things, just to preview the discussion that

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I recorded earlier with Sky Perryman that will hear later,

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is one of the things that's great about democracy forward

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is trying to pierce that veil of secrecy, and what

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we see from Trump what he's already told us makes

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us extremely suspicious of what's going on behind the scenes.

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And you know what, those are documents, And thankfully, because

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of the Foil Law and other ways of getting transparent access,

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we consue to get access. So it's one of the

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things we talk about.

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Speaker 1: Well, here's the thing. I mean, I guess declassified means stuff.

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I really wish it actually happened, because there was nothing

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there that he said was there. China did not manipulate

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a single vote. He keeps on trying to overturn an

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election that's like old enough to be in kindergarten, now,

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you know. And it's easy and tempting to laugh at this,

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but there is method to this batshit, as you say, professor,

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And one of the central themes of the speech was

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that Americans should doubt the integrity of previous elections, while

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also urging Congress to pass sweeping new election legislation that

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we don't actually need. There has never been a problem

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with voter impersonation in this country. We don't need voter

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ID laws. They solve no existing problems. But we know

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what the Save Act is all about. The Save Act

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is all about the fact that women have been voting

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democratics since nineteen ninety two consistently, and that's got to stop.

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And they think they found a way to reduce those

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numbers for at least one or two elections. So is

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there a constitution difference between advocating election reforms and using

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presidential authority to undermine confidence and elections without ever giving

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any evidence that voting systems or vote counts were actually compromised. Again,

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he brought no evidence to justify these laws that are

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designed for one thing, to make it harder for citizens

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to exercise the right to vote.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Well, the speech was about was a smattering

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of phrases, deep state, China all, you know, trying to

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just prime these ideas. America has all these enemies that are.

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Speaker 1: Resulting in master greatest hits.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's greatest hits.

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Speaker 1: And then with trans children playing sports or hacking our

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elections everything.

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Speaker 2: Wait, when you look at you know, the evidence of

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voter fraud, even the Heritage's database of supposed voting instances

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of voter fraud, you know you're talking about in the hundreds. Now,

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this isn't even confirming their cases. Nothing that would ever

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approximate making a difference in really any election that we've

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been talking about, So you know there is no evidence

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for this. Now you asked about, you know, the constitutional dangers,

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but also the protections. Let me first say just to

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reassure people what the protections are, and they are vast

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our elections. Thankfully, it used to be that scholars and

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politicians debated about whether or not we should have one

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national system of elections to better protect it. That debate,

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I think has been answered by Donald Trump, which is

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a great thing that elections are controlled by local and

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state government because he keeps him from doing what he

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surely would do if there was national control or control

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by the president or thankfully we haven't done this, but

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if the Congress would have delegated the power to the president,

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if any of that would have happened, he would have

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swooped in and assuming that it stood court challenges, if

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that was the system national elections, and he would have

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stolen all the elections going forward. It would have been

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a clear path to a clean coup. Now, the fact

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that the elections are local keeps him from being able

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to enact his will, so he's got to figure out

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ways of shaving off votes, and the same act is

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one attempt to do that, and we talked to Stacy

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Abrams an amazing discussion. I urge listeners to go back

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to that. You know, he's figured out every state in

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locality requires some form of identification. But what Trump has

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done is figured out the specific forms of identifications like

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passports that people don't have right him, don't have so

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that's all that.

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Speaker 1: That's yeah, and who doesn't have driver's licenses, College students,

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especially college students in cities, and seniors and you know,

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I mean, who's not going to have a photo IDA

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people who are new citizens. I mean, it's just it's

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all done to shave a little here, shave a little there.

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This was a spray of sloppy lies spread by an

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unpopular politician who was impeached twice for trying to cheat

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in the twenty twenty election. Let's not for he was

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impeached twice for trying to cheat in the same election

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that he was talking about in a primetime speech six

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years later, and he's been cheating in the twenty twenty

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six election, Professor since early twenty twenty five, when he

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demanded Texas have a mid decade Jerry Mander to dilute

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the non white vote. So what was amazing to me

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was the speech had zero mentions of Russian interference in

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American elections. He didn't talk about in the speech, but

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in the documents he released, it confirmed that the Russian

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government was spreading claims that Joe Biden was engaged in

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a criminal activity with Barisma with his son. Like they

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released the documents and I quote, Russia planned those narratives

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with US officials and planned a high profile corruption scandal

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at the peak of the twenty twenty US presidential campaign.

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This is what he actually released, Corey, to prove the

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twenty twenty election was rigged against him, and it actually

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shows that no, Russia was still interfering in our elections

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to hurt Joe Biden in twenty twenty. I mean, where

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does this fit Historically We've never seen a president repeatedly

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question the legitimacy of elections after courts and election officials

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and Intel Agency have rejected those claims. I mean, is

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it just desperate fumbling, Corey? Do I need to be

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scared of this because the states do control the elections

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and all of this is just lies to try to

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get a population worried about gas prices to care a

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lot about it election six years ago, so they can

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cheat in one in a few months.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think we do have to be concerned, and

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that's why we have to try to figure out, you know,

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what is going on behind the scenes, because this speech

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gives us not more than suspicion, it gives us evidence

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that he is going to try to cheat in this election.

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And his obsession about proving that somehow there is election

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interference against him, you know, is all part of building

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this case to cheat in the next election. I think

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it goes to a kind of psychology which is actually

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kind of Nixonian broadly, which is everybody's doing it, everybody's cheating,

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so I can cheat too. And how does he show

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that he shows that there are forces lined up against

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him supposedly, Well, he isn't actually shown. Point about barisma.

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You know, let's remember that in the first impeachment of

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Trump for the quid pro quo where he was really

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threatening Zelensky in order to get information on his opponent.

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That was the information that he was seeking Hunter Biden

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and Joe Biden supposed involvement with Ukrainian company, and one

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the that we've never gotten away with and it's a

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president who was obsessed with his supposed opponent who's no

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longer president, Joe Biden, and all with an aim of

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one thing, which is just like that original scheme in

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the first impeachment, getting information that I could use on

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my opponents send an election, to cheat, to manipulate the vote.

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And that's what this said was really exhibit A in

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his attempted coup to destroy our democracy.

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Speaker 1: That's what he got impieced for with Ukraine. All right,

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really quick, because I know we have to move on.

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There's a lot to cover. But during the speech, Trump

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criticized CNN and ABC and NBC for declining to air

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his lies live on their networks, and he suggested their

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broadcast licenses should be revoked because the only thing these

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people hate more than the New Testament is the Bill

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of Rights. So, Corey, from a First Amendment standpoint, obviously,

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the government can't punish newspapers or TV stations because it

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dislikes editorial decisions. Can you just explain why editorial discretion

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itself is constitutionally protected speech.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, we talked last week with the senator

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from Oregon, Senator Wyden about his jaw Boning Act, and

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we talked to death about this, and I'm so grateful

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actually to listeners who keep writing to me, and a

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lot of people had never heard this term jaw boning,

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but it is so important for the moment because sometimes

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you know, in the Sedition Act, which we've talked about extensively,

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John Adams signed law that said basically, criticize the president,

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you go to prison. The nice thing about that law is, Okay,

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obviously that's a shutdown of free speech. And yeah, back

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looking back on it, we can see that what about

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when the president uses the FCC in order to pressure

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private companies to make their own decisions. I'm giving this

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the most sympathetic, overly sympathetic way of describing.

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Speaker 1: It, to shut it query.

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Speaker 2: Maybe that's not the government shutting down your free speech,

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and so it's not relevant to the First Amendment, except

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that obviously that's not what's going on the government pretending

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that private companies are making their own decisions, but really

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are pressuring forcing them to do so. So that's a problem.

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Speaker 1: By the way, thank you for reminding everybody that Donald

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Trump attacked capitalism. I'll be sure to remind the Democratic

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Party to not use that at all in their campaigns

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this year. You know, please Democrats don't use that and

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it's too effective. Please don't go out as hypocrisy Democrats.

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Speaker 2: You know, the way he's gotten away with it is

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that he pretends somehow that these are private decisions. CBS,

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of course, did show the speech, thankfully, ABC and NBC

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did not. Even though they are going to have their

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licenses threatened. They resisted in the face of it. It's

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still a First Amendment violation. I hope that those corporations

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do sue because you cannot, through pressure, threaten the licenses

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and try to basically shut down the decision making of

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private companies. And yes, the Democratic Party better be emphasizing.

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I thought cn EN did a nice job. They printed

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the speech, but with panditation, that's a good way to

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do it. You can cover the speech. We're covering it

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right now, exactly, letting it air on its own.

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Speaker 1: Well, that was the question I had for you, and

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then we'll get off this topic. But it doesn't seem

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too tough to balance these two competing journalistic obligations. Right

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on the one hand, you have to inform the public

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because it's a speech, and you got to tell them

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what the president said, but you also have to avoid

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amplifying demonstrably false claims, which is the same reason why

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if you're hosting a debate and Donald Trump is there,

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you really want to call out his lives. But that's

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another show. So I mean, that seems to be where

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it's at. Corey, I agree with you. I think that

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they pulled it off by actually having fact checking for

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a speech, and I support keeping that and when there's

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a democratic president, I hope they keep it too. I

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would love to see these broadcast networks have live fact

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checking in the moment to scare these politicians into telling

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the truth.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that's the only way to

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do it, because there is a real story here, which

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is that the president is trying to undermine our elections

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in order to try to steal the midterms. And that's

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about the biggest story that there can be. Now, how

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do you cover it? That's a separate question. And if

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you cover it by just you know, letting that speech

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appear nearly willy with no commentary, is if it's true,

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then that's the opposite of journalism. So CNN and ABC

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and NBC, great jobs, CBS, you know, Wow, you really

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are turning into the next Fox.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I got to say, Tony Dekoppele gave Donald Trump

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a lovely flot massage later in the evening. I don't

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know if you saw it, but he actually cooked him

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dinner and then made him a comfortable bed and then

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gave him a flip massage with anointed oils from India.

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It was beautiful. I wish you'd seen it. It was

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really good journalism. Oh, CBS, All right, let's talk about

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Todd Blanche has been a few days since the confirmation hearings.

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They did not go well. The senators were talking to

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him about obviously, the DOJ is supposed to be independent,

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and it's being used to pursue Donald Trump's political opponents.

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And you were his criminal defense lawyer. Why are we

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doing this? I mean, I don't even know where to begin, Corey.

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This guy should not even make it to a hearing

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and he's most likely going to be confirmed. What constitutional

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principles are at risk when concerns are there that prosecutorial

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power is being exercised to beat up on a president's foes.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, there's a lot made of the fact

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that I do want to emphasize this that the Department

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of Justice is supposed to be representing the people the

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cases that brought criminal cases on behalf of the people

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of the United States, not on behalf of the president.

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And of course, the way that Blanche sees himself is

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that he is the personal lawyer of the president. And

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I've said that, you know, on CNN and on this show,

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but you just said something that I want to emphasize

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even more. Mead, Yes, that he sees himself as the

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personal defense lawyer of the president. This was the guy

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that defends he is defendant Donald Trump. In the New

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York case about Stormy Daniels from criminal charges, he went

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after Michael Cohen by trying to just accuse him of

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lying about everything on the stand, even though a lot

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of what he was saying was backed up by evidence.

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Of course, Donald Trump was convicted in that case. And

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what's going on here too, is that that's the kind

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of thud, I'll call it a thug lawyer that we're

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getting as Acting Attorney Drenal is trying to be Attorney General,

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that he's just going after Trump's opponents, defending him at

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all costs, going after his opponents as he would an

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opponent in court. It is really such a travesty.

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Speaker 1: Chuck Grassley still has not scheduled a vote yet, which

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is very interesting. And it's not because Chuck Grassley is

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waiting on a case of true blood to arrive to

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keep him living. It's because John Cornyn is very far

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from a yes right now, and it's only going to

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take one Republican no vote in this committee to sink

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the nomination and Professor. As we all know, John Cornyan

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doesn't oh Donald Trump any favors for the rest of

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his life, does he. Donald Trump decided to endorse Nazi

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weasel Ken Paxton, and that's why John Cornan is about

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to become an ex senator. And now John Cornan's vote

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could sink Donald Trump's crooked pick for Attorney General. It's

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kind of brilliant, except I don't know who to root

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for and who to root against.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, a lot of this comes down to

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this slush fund to try to take money that Trump

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got in a illicit deal with the Irs, to deal

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with himself in order to fund money to his allies,

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including those who participated in January sixth. Now that slush fund,

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you know, just so not just so happens. We planned

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this guest guy Perriman, her group stop that slush fund. Literally,

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they are the people that went to court and said,

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I don't think so, like you know, this is illegal,

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and once they got a court order from a judge,

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that started to you know, help get media attention on

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it and to get now here's where it's really relevant

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to these hearings, to get the Attorney general to back

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down or so he says. He said multiple times it's dead.

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But now when Corning says, okay, put it in writing,

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he refuses to do so. And that's one thing that

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really pissed off this senator from Texas that you know,

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essentially not just lying, but just rubbing it into the

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face of the committee that you're pretending, maybe for a

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few seconds, to drop this slush fund and then refusing

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to put it in writing. Well, one thing, you know,

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I talked to Periman about this. Wait for this in

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the interview. Amazing to listen to what's going on with

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the case, you would think that if they really dropped it,

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they have not dropped the case. They are continuing to

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fight for this slush fund against those who would stop it.

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And that suggests the Senator is exactly right. What a

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news worthy moment for that interview, for this battle between

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Cornyan and Trump. You know, let's hope that that Trump

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doesn't come up with some deal that makes cornyin back down.

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It's too important.

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Speaker 1: Well, and there's also the not too small factor of

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covering a child rape, which has been Tillis's problem. We

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got to take a quick break, but when we come back,

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I want to pick up on this note, professor, because

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as you know, a federal judge just smacked down this

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IRS settlement and I want to ask you about it

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back in a moment, donn the oath that in the office.

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Speaker 4: The New John Fugel Sang Show every day at twelve noon.

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Speaker 3: Good afternoon, John, and welcome back to Afternoon Radio.

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Speaker 1: I have missed you. Now you're back into the daylight.

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Speaker 2: Good afternoon, John. Congraduations on the new show, loving it,

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Congratulations on the changes happening with the show.

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Speaker 5: Excited for you, Excited for me personally, like, oh my god,

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I can call an again.

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Speaker 4: The New John Fugel Sang Show every day at twelve

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00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,200
noon on Serious XM Progress Channel one twenty seven, or

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on the Serious XCM after.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the oath and the office. I'm John Fiegel, saying,

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along with Professor Corey Bretschneider, Corey, federal judge just described

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that IRS agreement that would benefit Trump as an improper

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exercise in self dealing and pretty much smacked out all

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of the corruptions surrounding the entire litigation and even referred

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one of the attorneys involved to state bar authorities. A

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lot to unpack. We already knew this was corrupt. A

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federal judge is now validated that. For those like me

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in the audience, what does self dealing actually mean legally speaking?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, the way that this has been described

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is as a fraud on the court. And that sounds

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like a strong way to put it, and for good reason.

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The whole idea of a lawsuit is supposed to be

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that you have two parties battling it out. Now, think

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about it. The IRS is part of the executive branch

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and Donald Trump is in charge of the executive branch.

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And yet this supposed deal was hashed out between two

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warring parties, the IRS and Trump. No, it was Trump

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and himself. It was a scam, and that's what this

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judge is pulling out. I mentioned the unitary executive theory.

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You know, it used to be that there were theories

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of the executive branch that said you had civil servants,

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the I R. S. Or the Department of Justice is

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technically underneath the president, but they really are, you know,

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legally separate all of those hurdles. Those barriers between the

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president and the agencies are disappearing under the theory that

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Donald Trump and his lackeys are pushing the units of

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executive So in what way is this really a battle

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between Trump and a different entity? No, it's Donald Trump

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self dealing with himself, not in the conflict. And that's

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the fraud on the court that's been called out. There

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isn't a real conflict. I keep mentioning Sky Perryman. I'm

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so excited for listeners to hear it. But you know

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it's an other place where incredibly, they went out and

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they have either people come to them or they seek

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out plaintiffs in these cases who are going to have

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standing to challenge these bs deals, to challenge the slush fund,

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to challenge the needed thing that gave rise to the

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money for the slush fund, which is this fake fraud

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on the court. Lawsuit. So you know, really it's what's

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our guests are often, you know, related to the news

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that you know, definitely we had Senator widen As that

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we were considering whether or not to confirm the d

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n I and the questions of international surveillance. That was

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an amazing episode and this one is too really relevant.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, let me let me just ask you about this,

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because the Catholic Church as a whole policy of their

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own on self dealing, but it's got a bit different language.

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They're not fans. How How rare is it for a

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federal judge to refer an attorney involved in a case

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to state bar authorities.

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Speaker 2: It's pretty rare, you know, and it's got to be

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really bad. But think of what I just told you exactly.

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You know, judges don't like being made dupes. And I

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want to see more of it fraught on the court.

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Speaker 1: I want to see more of this. I hope it's

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not too late to dispar Pam bond equory. Do you understand.

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I still I'm still holding out hope that Pam BONDI

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could be disbarred for this stuff. Like I'm thrilled to

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see the judicial branch actually punching back and not just

475
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:05,920
handing over their money to the ability.

476
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 2: And I want to say why. You know, judges do

477
00:25:08,559 --> 00:25:10,880
get emotional, they do get angry. And one of the

478
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,960
things I think that really angers them is well, straight

479
00:25:14,039 --> 00:25:15,920
up lying, which we've seen from a lot of the

480
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,880
Department of Justice. And we've talked about why a presumption

481
00:25:19,039 --> 00:25:22,160
of trusting the Department of Justice has just evaporated. That

482
00:25:22,559 --> 00:25:25,240
long tradition is gone, given how much lying there's been.

483
00:25:25,319 --> 00:25:27,839
That's one thing that makes them really angry. But there's

484
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,359
what really makes them even more angry when you try

485
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,920
to give them to rubber stamp a fake agreement with

486
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,960
what you're presenting as two warring parties but really are not.

487
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,559
You know, it's like, you know, me and you John

488
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,440
catch a plot to pretend to have a battle because

489
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,880
we've come up with a way to fraudulently benefit if

490
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,200
it looks like we're in a lawsuit, we're lying the

491
00:25:49,279 --> 00:25:51,839
judge that we get to involve our we're not really

492
00:25:51,839 --> 00:25:54,039
doing this. But if we get a judge to involve

493
00:25:54,079 --> 00:25:56,359
ourselves in that, they're not going to be happy. And

494
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,440
that's exactly what's happened. They're trying to basically rope in

495
00:25:59,519 --> 00:26:02,079
the judicial sherry to make them a party to a fraud.

496
00:26:02,559 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: Can I tell you my really unpopular opinion about this, Cory, please,

497
00:26:06,279 --> 00:26:09,359
My really unpopular opinion about this is that I don't

498
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,079
want to hear any Democrats complain about it, because the

499
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:17,119
Constitution already has mechanisms designed to stop presidents from using

500
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,920
the public office for their private benefit. The Constitution has

501
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,079
the emolument's clauses foreign and domestic. As I've told you

502
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,880
many times, we could have impeached Donald Trump one minute

503
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,200
into his first inaugural address in twenty seventeen. Jimmy Carter

504
00:26:33,279 --> 00:26:36,119
gave up a damn peanut farm. Mitt Romney was willing

505
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,759
to put his gazillions into a blind trust. This president

506
00:26:39,799 --> 00:26:42,119
has made more money in the last year off the

507
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,160
office than he ever made on his own in his

508
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,640
entire life. And I don't see anyone ever mentioning the

509
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,319
constitutions of mollument's clauses ever, and it's happening out in

510
00:26:53,319 --> 00:26:56,039
the open, So why shouldn't he do it at this point?

511
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,240
If even the Democratic Party is not going to risk

512
00:26:59,279 --> 00:27:02,039
the bad vibe of using the eyeword related.

513
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 2: To this, well, it is impeachable. Our whole episode about

514
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,079
the more than two billion dollars that the president has stolen,

515
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,720
not just benefited, using the office in order to profit

516
00:27:11,799 --> 00:27:14,480
himself is exhibit A. And the reason it's like.

517
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,759
Speaker 1: It almost sounds like you don't trust Crypto, professor, It

518
00:27:16,799 --> 00:27:18,880
almost sounds like he's calling Crypto a scam.

519
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 2: But go on, and you know what's the argument for

520
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,000
why this specifically is a place for impeachment. Well, as

521
00:27:25,039 --> 00:27:27,599
you say, and that it is true, you're not seeing it.

522
00:27:28,039 --> 00:27:30,160
You know, usually in the media you are hearing about

523
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,799
it and seeing it on this podcast. We have two

524
00:27:32,839 --> 00:27:37,160
emolument's clauses, one domestic, one international, and Trump is continually

525
00:27:37,599 --> 00:27:39,960
violating both. And he's doing it for two reasons. One

526
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:44,039
is he thinks he has immunity. He shouldn't and doesn't

527
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,599
have immunity. These aren't official acts, but he's deluded himself

528
00:27:47,599 --> 00:27:51,000
into thinking that they are. And yes, he can be prosecuted,

529
00:27:51,039 --> 00:27:54,480
I think for some of these crimes after he leaves office.

530
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,799
Except for the fact, and here's the second thing that's

531
00:27:56,839 --> 00:28:00,160
complicated that we don't have laws on the books that

532
00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:03,880
take the emoluments clauses and turn them into criminal law.

533
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,720
This is a subtle point, but I think it's worth making. Yes,

534
00:28:06,759 --> 00:28:09,880
it's prohibited under the constitution, but the way the constitution

535
00:28:10,079 --> 00:28:13,279
works is you need to translate it into laws on

536
00:28:13,319 --> 00:28:17,160
the books passed by Congress, and we don't have enough.

537
00:28:17,319 --> 00:28:19,960
It's possible to do it, but it should be crystal

538
00:28:20,079 --> 00:28:25,279
clause clear. We have prosecuting prosecutors are saying it would

539
00:28:25,319 --> 00:28:27,359
be hard to make the case because they're too weak. Well,

540
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,759
I think there's an obvious answer, and Jamie Raskin has

541
00:28:29,759 --> 00:28:32,480
been one of the people who has done something about us.

542
00:28:32,599 --> 00:28:35,720
You have to have legislation that makes it not not

543
00:28:36,319 --> 00:28:38,359
you know, I don't should we indict him or not?

544
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,039
Should we prosecute him or not? Make the laws so

545
00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:43,359
clear that if you use the office to steal from

546
00:28:43,359 --> 00:28:45,359
the American public, you're going to be prospects.

547
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: The laws are already clear. Financial disclosures last week show

548
00:28:49,039 --> 00:28:53,599
us that Trump's company received millions from foreign business interests

549
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,160
while related trade matters we're still pending before the US government.

550
00:28:58,519 --> 00:29:02,519
Can you imagine if Hillary Clinton had been making money

551
00:29:02,759 --> 00:29:06,680
from foreign corporations while they had legislation pending in front

552
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,720
of her husband while he was president. I think our

553
00:29:09,759 --> 00:29:13,960
Republican friends would have impeached them using existing laws very effectively.

554
00:29:14,319 --> 00:29:17,599
I mean, ethics scholars have always warned us about presidents

555
00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:22,279
having extensive private business interests. But turns out, go ahead

556
00:29:22,319 --> 00:29:24,680
and do it violate all those norms because no one's

557
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,519
going to stop you. I mean, yeah, they could impeach

558
00:29:27,559 --> 00:29:29,319
him for it. They could, they don't want to.

559
00:29:29,519 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 2: Let's talk about two things. One is, and this is

560
00:29:31,759 --> 00:29:34,799
we're in heated agreement about this. That the you know,

561
00:29:34,839 --> 00:29:38,640
in the absence of criminal laws, making something obviously illegal,

562
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,839
and that's the situation I think that we're in. We

563
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,039
do have another mechanism for removing a president. That's impeachment.

564
00:29:44,119 --> 00:29:47,799
And when the Constitution says that an impeachabable offense is

565
00:29:47,839 --> 00:29:50,839
a high crime and misdemeanor, it doesn't mean a criminal offense.

566
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,119
It means a crime against the Constitution, against the Republic,

567
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,799
against the people, and the emoluments clause violations are primary there.

568
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,039
So yes, Second, that we have a democratic majority in

569
00:30:02,079 --> 00:30:06,200
the House, I think, in addition to other articles of impeachment,

570
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:11,039
the first ones definitely should be about these emoluments clause violations.

571
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,319
Now here's the second thing, though, that we need to

572
00:30:13,359 --> 00:30:16,160
do because this is also a problem. When I talked

573
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,480
to prosecutors and we had Joyce Vance on the show,

574
00:30:18,519 --> 00:30:20,640
and just as a reminder, she's one of the people

575
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,640
who think amazing that you know that even the most

576
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,640
seasoned federal prosecutors who agree with us that this should

577
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,519
be a crimer like I don't know that if I

578
00:30:28,599 --> 00:30:31,440
brought that case that I could get a conviction. That

579
00:30:31,519 --> 00:30:33,720
tells me that we need laws on the books to

580
00:30:34,119 --> 00:30:37,519
make it easier. Not just talking about impeachment now, I'm

581
00:30:37,519 --> 00:30:40,039
talking about putting somebody in prison, just to remind people

582
00:30:40,319 --> 00:30:42,640
you impeach and remove a president, they don't go to prison,

583
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,079
they're just out of office. That would be great, but

584
00:30:45,279 --> 00:30:48,039
this is an offense that is worthy of a prison sentence,

585
00:30:48,079 --> 00:30:49,839
and we may clarify.

586
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,359
Speaker 1: Them make Grifter is afraid of prison again. I agree.

587
00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:55,319
And you know, look, my unpopular opinion is Democrats should

588
00:30:55,359 --> 00:31:00,240
be impeaching this guy for something else. Once a week.

589
00:30:59,519 --> 00:31:02,640
Every week, there should be new articles of impeachment introduced

590
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,839
by a new Democratic representative and they will go nowhere

591
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:07,599
and there should be a lot of hype and news

592
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,079
coverage for it. Because when the Republicans were introducing seventy

593
00:31:11,119 --> 00:31:14,880
plus repeal Obamacare bills, and we laughed and laughed at them.

594
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,079
What they were doing in that doomed Kamakazi legislation was

595
00:31:19,279 --> 00:31:23,319
fundraising and giving a mission statement and reminding their base

596
00:31:23,319 --> 00:31:25,759
of exactly what they were fighting for. In that case,

597
00:31:25,759 --> 00:31:28,319
it was taking healthcare away from Americans because they're evil.

598
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,480
But I think you want to see a Democratic party fighting.

599
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,039
Get in the ring. Now. Let me be willing to

600
00:31:34,079 --> 00:31:35,920
see you take a punch and even get knocked down

601
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,079
and not get there, but you're going to fight for it,

602
00:31:38,119 --> 00:31:41,160
and you're not going to not fight for impeachment because

603
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:42,920
you know it's going to fail. I think we want

604
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,119
to see that. Al Green alone can't do it, and

605
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,319
I think Democrats, if they did, it would raise a

606
00:31:47,319 --> 00:31:49,440
lot of awareness about this kind of corruption and the

607
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,279
emolument's clause. Most Americans don't know what the emoluments clause is.

608
00:31:52,519 --> 00:31:54,759
They should and I think you can fundraise off it

609
00:31:54,799 --> 00:31:56,960
as well. So I'd like to see them just get

610
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:57,480
in the spirit.

611
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,039
Speaker 2: There's another really, you know, I'm of the bl be

612
00:32:00,359 --> 00:32:03,279
that although the impeachments didn't result, half the impeachments in

613
00:32:03,319 --> 00:32:05,519
the history of the Republic I should say, we're in

614
00:32:05,519 --> 00:32:08,799
Trump's first term, and you know they weren't a mistake.

615
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,079
They let us see the threat to democracy, both in

616
00:32:12,119 --> 00:32:14,799
the attempt to get dirt on his opponent Joe Biden.

617
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,799
Still relevant to the speech, of course, the impeachment for

618
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,960
January sixth was called for, and one of the things

619
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,359
that it does, and Johnny, I think you're getting at

620
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,799
this too, is not just rise awareness of the general crimes,

621
00:32:27,039 --> 00:32:29,960
but we get information. And so much of the problem

622
00:32:30,079 --> 00:32:33,359
of this presidency is the black box that's hiding the

623
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,559
illegal activity, the fraud. That's part of what sky Perriman

624
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,319
is trying to do after this speech and her lawsuits

625
00:32:39,359 --> 00:32:42,440
with Democracy Forward to get information about what's going on

626
00:32:42,559 --> 00:32:45,880
behind the scenes try to steal the midterm elections. But

627
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,039
it also would happen through impeachment, where we would get

628
00:32:49,119 --> 00:32:50,960
information as we did in the first term.

629
00:32:51,279 --> 00:32:53,279
Speaker 1: So before we hit our break and then the interview,

630
00:32:53,319 --> 00:32:55,920
because now you've got me dying to hear it really quick.

631
00:32:56,119 --> 00:32:59,839
This is really disturbing. After Ice has now officially killed

632
00:33:00,039 --> 00:33:03,519
believe they're eighth person of the Year, the reports are

633
00:33:03,559 --> 00:33:08,799
that the FBI is going to stop investigating confrontations involving

634
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:14,319
ICE personnel. In other words, no oversight. If these masked

635
00:33:14,599 --> 00:33:19,799
cowards with badges murder people, the FBI, the federal government

636
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:25,920
won't take any interest in such violence. I mean, Corey,

637
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,039
if ever there was a time for independent oversight being

638
00:33:29,039 --> 00:33:33,319
an important component of constitutional governance, wouldn't it be this?

639
00:33:34,039 --> 00:33:37,400
I mean, Americans might die and the FBI won't get

640
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:37,960
in the way.

641
00:33:39,319 --> 00:33:41,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it is, you know, talking about a

642
00:33:41,839 --> 00:33:46,039
veil of secrecy and hiding information. What's happening we know

643
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,400
is that ICE and I'll just emphasize part of the

644
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:52,039
reason why is structural. They've eliminated essentially the training for

645
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,880
ICE officers, so you know, yeah, grut is a gun

646
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,440
people who really shouldn't be working in these positions. Refusing

647
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,480
to train them, We're going to have not fewer, but

648
00:34:02,559 --> 00:34:06,000
more of these horrific incidents in which people on the

649
00:34:06,079 --> 00:34:10,880
street are having their basic rights human rights abused by ICE.

650
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,760
And rather than you know, who's supposed to be looking

651
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,840
into these offenses, it's the federal government. It's the FBI,

652
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:19,880
and they are refusing to do it. They are just

653
00:34:20,039 --> 00:34:23,320
adding to the veil of secrecy, as listeners know. And

654
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,039
I'll just emphasize it again. Other entities have to step up.

655
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,719
And I am really an advocate for state attorneys generals,

656
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,880
local prosecutors bringing charges against ice officers. I know about

657
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,480
at least one investigation in Minnesota, but you know, we

658
00:34:39,599 --> 00:34:42,079
now know there might have been a debate about that.

659
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:44,400
Isn't this a role for the federal government. They have

660
00:34:44,679 --> 00:34:47,679
just abdicated the federal government their role in enforcing the

661
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,880
criminal laws. If you murder somebody, that's a violation of

662
00:34:51,039 --> 00:34:55,000
local Every state in this country bans murder, and you

663
00:34:55,039 --> 00:34:57,480
know what, those laws have to be enforced. They're not

664
00:34:57,519 --> 00:34:59,480
going to be enforced by the federal government, so they

665
00:34:59,519 --> 00:35:02,239
have to be for us well, state prosecuted.

666
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:02,639
Speaker 6: You know.

667
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: NPR had an interview with a woman named Ashley Bruyette.

668
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,559
She is the ex wife of the man David Bruyette,

669
00:35:09,159 --> 00:35:13,559
who shot and killed Johann Deran Guerrero four times in

670
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,400
Maine last week in front of his child. This man

671
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,840
was not the target, He had a social Security number,

672
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,000
he was following all the rules, He was unarmed. He

673
00:35:23,119 --> 00:35:25,639
was shot in the vehicle, pulled out of the vehicle

674
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,199
in front of his three year old daughter, handcuffed once

675
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,599
he was pulled out and shot and left to bleed

676
00:35:32,639 --> 00:35:35,519
to death on the sidewalk. And this man's ex wife

677
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,039
told NPR that he called her and begged her to

678
00:35:39,039 --> 00:35:42,199
say positive things about his character. She said that he

679
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,800
was abusive. She said that he's already asked her to

680
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,920
lie for him. His former best friend from high school

681
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,800
testified on his ex wife's behalf when they broke up

682
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,480
because he was so abusive. She played a tape of

683
00:35:54,519 --> 00:35:56,960
this man threatening to have all the women in her

684
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:01,000
family's throats cut. In a twenty twenty one court filing,

685
00:36:01,159 --> 00:36:04,039
this guy was stripped of his firearms temporarily because of

686
00:36:04,119 --> 00:36:07,480
complaints of abuse from his second ex wife, Corey. I'm like,

687
00:36:07,599 --> 00:36:10,159
is it too much to ask that we screened these people?

688
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:15,159
The man who describing just shot and killed an innocent

689
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:19,079
man last week who was getting a citizenship, and they

690
00:36:19,079 --> 00:36:21,880
had the wrong guy, and we're still paying his salary.

691
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,480
He's not even suspended, And the FBI will not intervene

692
00:36:25,519 --> 00:36:26,119
or investigate.

693
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 2: Yes, as a matter of as a matter of policy,

694
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,920
they're just not going to look into this wrongdoing. As

695
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,519
a matter of hiring and training, there is none There

696
00:36:35,559 --> 00:36:39,480
are no standards, and you know. That's why I should

697
00:36:39,519 --> 00:36:42,159
say too. You could hear me talk shout through the

698
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,760
rooftops about the need for local prosecutors to bring these indictments,

699
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,079
which they definitely can, although they're reluctant to have been

700
00:36:49,119 --> 00:36:51,480
reluctant to do so. But you want to hear the

701
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,760
best argument for it, it's just look at the facts,

702
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,199
look at the brutality, look at the individuals who are involved,

703
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,320
and then you see why we need the criminal law

704
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,679
to be in forced and why the FBI and the

705
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,239
federal government. Well, this goes back to Todd blanche. This

706
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:06,719
is the guy who's going to be in charge of

707
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,119
whether or not to prosecute Ice. I don't think that

708
00:37:09,159 --> 00:37:11,320
the same person who's setting up a slush fund for

709
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,320
Donald Trump and then lying about whether or not he's

710
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,159
backing off it is going to be the person to

711
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:19,880
enforce justice for Americans.

712
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,039
Speaker 1: God bless our fascists for being so incompetent. All right,

713
00:37:24,079 --> 00:37:25,920
we have to take a break. Let me come back.

714
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:27,599
The professor assistant with sky Berravin.

715
00:37:27,639 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 3: Don't go away, Heyl Glenn Kirshner here, So, friends, I

716
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,480
hope you'll join me on my audio podcast, Justice Matters.

717
00:37:39,039 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 6: Do you care about ethics and government, criminal justice reform,

718
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,239
a conflict free federal judiciary.

719
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 1: I thought so.

720
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 6: On Justice Matters, we take on issues involving the need

721
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,079
to reform our government and its institutions, and we talk

722
00:37:56,119 --> 00:38:01,079
about real, achievable reform. I hope you'll join us look

723
00:38:01,119 --> 00:38:09,000
for Justice Matters wherever you usually get your podcasts.

724
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Oath in the Office. It's really

725
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,480
my pleasure to introduce Sky Perryman. Sky Perryman is the

726
00:38:16,519 --> 00:38:20,719
CEO of Democracy Forward, and I would call Democracy Forward

727
00:38:21,079 --> 00:38:25,119
one of the premier legal organizations fighting Trump right now

728
00:38:25,159 --> 00:38:28,960
in court, trying to defend our democracy. We'll talk about

729
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,159
what they've been doing, incredible work. It's been my honor

730
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,559
to work with them on the tariff's case. Sky is

731
00:38:35,639 --> 00:38:38,280
a graduate of Georgetown Law School. She was named one

732
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,039
of Time magazines one hundred most influential people, and she

733
00:38:42,199 --> 00:38:44,880
joins me to discuss the legal fight against the Trump

734
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:49,360
administration and the fight for our constitution. So, Sky Perryman,

735
00:38:49,559 --> 00:38:51,119
Welcome to the Oath in the Office.

736
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 7: Thanks so much for having me, what a pleasure.

737
00:38:54,079 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 2: Can you just start off by telling me about the organization,

738
00:38:58,039 --> 00:39:00,880
what your overall strategy, is. I want to get into

739
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,360
some of your incredible legal fights and really legal victories.

740
00:39:04,679 --> 00:39:07,239
Part of our podcast is about the threat to democracy,

741
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,400
but it's also about why citizens need to be fighting

742
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,480
back and the hope that this actually works as worked

743
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,760
in the past, will work in the future. And your

744
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,559
organizations really really showed that. So just start off by

745
00:39:18,559 --> 00:39:21,400
telling us what are you all about and what have

746
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,559
been your strategies in dealing with Trump two point zero.

747
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,519
Speaker 5: We're about making sure that the American people can create

748
00:39:28,559 --> 00:39:32,280
the conditions needed, which are democratic conditions and democracy where

749
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:36,159
all people can thrive. And what has happened, as you know,

750
00:39:36,559 --> 00:39:38,880
over the past few years in our country, and this

751
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,320
did not start at twenty twenty five when President Trump

752
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,280
came back into office, but we have been for a

753
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,880
variety of years. We've been admitst a democratic backslide in

754
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,039
this country where far right extremism at the state and

755
00:39:52,079 --> 00:39:54,960
local level has done everything from banned books to ban

756
00:39:55,119 --> 00:39:58,000
healthcare to try to prevent people from voting. We have

757
00:39:58,079 --> 00:40:01,199
a rise of misinformation and dism in this country. We

758
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,880
have a challenging Supreme Court landscape where the Supreme Court

759
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,920
has in many instances reversed the rights of people as

760
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,639
opposed to protect the rights of people, and all of

761
00:40:11,679 --> 00:40:16,119
that is happening against a backdrop across the world where

762
00:40:16,159 --> 00:40:19,840
so many countries are facing these backslides. The number of

763
00:40:20,079 --> 00:40:23,480
democracies in the world is declining as a number of

764
00:40:23,519 --> 00:40:27,840
autocracies is rising. So it's against this global context. And then,

765
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,159
of course, a year and a half ago, with the

766
00:40:30,159 --> 00:40:33,079
inauguration of President Trump and the way he has chosen

767
00:40:33,599 --> 00:40:36,679
to govern, we've seen that backslide really accelerate, and so

768
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,280
our organization is about making sure that people in this

769
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,960
country can utilize the power and the tools that our

770
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,679
democracy provides for them to be able to protect their communities,

771
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,199
protect their rights, to push forward when that is possible.

772
00:40:51,599 --> 00:40:54,639
And one of those tools is the ability of people

773
00:40:54,679 --> 00:40:56,800
to go to court and to demand that their rights

774
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,840
be defended. And so we do a lot of court work.

775
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,320
We represent all of our clients free of charge. We

776
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,760
believe that it's important that the American people be able

777
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,400
to access the courts, even if they can't afford excellent lawyers.

778
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,039
We have excellent lawyers here who do that work pro bono,

779
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,320
so that we can make sure that the Constitution is

780
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:17,880
defended and that people are defended.

781
00:41:18,639 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 2: Well, you have put together an amazing team of litigators,

782
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,760
people who are in formerly in the Department of Justice.

783
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,199
I know many people served in the department before it

784
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,480
was taken over by Trump and trump Ism. And you've

785
00:41:30,519 --> 00:41:34,119
been having amazing victories too in the federal courts in

786
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,360
where so much of the pushback has happened. So one

787
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,800
of the things that I know you've been deeply involved

788
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,920
in and have had success, and this is one of

789
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:46,119
those hopeful moments, is in pushing back against Trump's corrupt

790
00:41:46,159 --> 00:41:50,000
deal with the IRS and also his related creation of

791
00:41:50,039 --> 00:41:53,679
this slush fund, this attack fund on his opponents. So

792
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,440
talk to me about both of these cases and how

793
00:41:56,559 --> 00:42:00,840
your litigation strategy has really helped to stop this in

794
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,000
its tracks. I think that our listeners will want to

795
00:42:03,039 --> 00:42:05,800
know not just what the issues are, but like, how

796
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:07,320
did you do this? Well?

797
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 5: We do have such an amazing team and the team

798
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:14,320
though we have amazing clients across this country. People in

799
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,000
communities are stepping forward even when powerful institutions have been

800
00:42:18,039 --> 00:42:21,400
stepping back or sitting on the sidelines. And so the

801
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:25,400
slush fund, this creation of the one point seven seven

802
00:42:25,519 --> 00:42:29,599
six billion dollars slush fund, which is a total corrupt

803
00:42:29,679 --> 00:42:33,679
political kickback scheme to use taxpayer dollars to try to

804
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,719
compensate people who have been convicted of in many instances,

805
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:40,800
people that pled guilty of violent crimes, whether that is

806
00:42:41,159 --> 00:42:44,800
violent restrictions and trying to keep people from being able

807
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,880
to access reproductive healthcare clinics, which is unlawful under a

808
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:52,639
broad bipartisan act, or people that participated in January sixth

809
00:42:52,679 --> 00:42:56,280
and tried to disrupt the peaceful transition of presidential power,

810
00:42:56,679 --> 00:42:59,639
and on and on. This slush fund that the government

811
00:42:59,679 --> 00:43:02,800
creates has been unlawful from the start, but there was

812
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:04,840
a real question about who would really be able to

813
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,159
step up and challenge it. And so we represent an

814
00:43:08,199 --> 00:43:11,800
amazing coalition of plainffs. We represent a former prosecutor who

815
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,840
was fired by Donald Trump's administration this because he worked

816
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,639
on the January sixth cases. He did nothing wrong, did

817
00:43:18,679 --> 00:43:21,920
his job, but got fired. We represent a coalition of

818
00:43:22,079 --> 00:43:25,960
reproductive health care providers who for many years, even way

819
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,039
before January sixth, when they go to work, they face

820
00:43:29,159 --> 00:43:33,960
violence and threats because of anti abortion extremism that is

821
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,719
so violent, So you know, we represent them. We represent

822
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,920
the City of New haven that's been retaliated against by

823
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,880
this administration because the administration doesn't like the way it

824
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,679
treats immigrants in its community. And then we're really pleased

825
00:43:47,679 --> 00:43:51,119
to represent Common Cause, which is of course, you know,

826
00:43:51,159 --> 00:43:54,880
an amazing pro democracy organization. So we have this big

827
00:43:55,039 --> 00:43:58,679
coalition of plain effs and we were able to file suit.

828
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,239
You know, the president can't do things without acting through

829
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:03,960
the federal agencies, and here you have a number of

830
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,960
these federal offices that were establishing the slush fund. We

831
00:44:08,039 --> 00:44:11,039
filed suit in the Eastern District of Virginia in federal court,

832
00:44:11,199 --> 00:44:14,440
and we immediately were able to get the fund paused

833
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,239
because the government would not even agree. And I think

834
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,440
your listeners would be interested in this, like the government

835
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:23,800
would not even agree to pause the fund while the

836
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,880
court could set a hearing schedule. So this is one

837
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,840
of the Trump administration's core philosophies has been to try

838
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,719
to outrun accountability, or to try to run so fast

839
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,280
that the courts can't act. And about a year and

840
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,519
a half ago when we started lit getting these cases,

841
00:44:38,519 --> 00:44:40,639
it was very hard sometimes to get the courts to

842
00:44:40,679 --> 00:44:43,599
act quickly because they would you know, they would be

843
00:44:44,119 --> 00:44:46,679
worried that, you know, are they acting to hastily now

844
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,480
that they've seen this administration try to outrun them. We're

845
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,079
seeing the federal courts understand, okay, if you're not even

846
00:44:52,119 --> 00:44:54,519
going to agree to pause something so that we can

847
00:44:54,519 --> 00:44:56,280
get a hearing schedule, we're going to go ahead an

848
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,400
issue in order. So that's what the court did, and

849
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,320
then she had a full hearing on our ow for

850
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,880
pulmonary injunction, where she found that, of course our clients

851
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,719
had made the case that they were likely to succeed.

852
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,119
And so now now the matter is paused, that the

853
00:45:10,159 --> 00:45:13,559
slush fund is paused while we litigate the merits of

854
00:45:13,599 --> 00:45:13,960
the matter.

855
00:45:14,039 --> 00:45:16,280
Speaker 7: Now, what's interesting about this case.

856
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,760
Speaker 5: Another thing that has been quite interesting is that the

857
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,920
Department of Justice has made a range of claims. You know,

858
00:45:22,159 --> 00:45:25,159
Todd blanch goes to Congress and says, the slush fund's dead,

859
00:45:25,599 --> 00:45:28,480
we're not really doing it. And our case has really

860
00:45:28,519 --> 00:45:31,480
been the instrument I think that has shown the American

861
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,960
people what's happening here because he goes to Congress and

862
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,079
says one thing. But then when we say, well will

863
00:45:36,119 --> 00:45:38,719
you will you swear on yours and put put a

864
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:40,800
paper down in Court. You know, all of a sudden,

865
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,559
he's not interested in that. And so I think that

866
00:45:43,599 --> 00:45:46,559
this is a great example of how litigation can.

867
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:47,639
Speaker 7: Be helpful to protect people.

868
00:45:47,639 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 5: We want to protect taxpayers, we want to protect our clients. Obviously,

869
00:45:50,519 --> 00:45:53,079
we want to protect against corruption. We certainly will our

870
00:45:53,119 --> 00:45:55,519
clients could be harmed if these people go out and

871
00:45:55,519 --> 00:45:58,679
get checks from the government. But we also you know,

872
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,760
this is a good mechanism really exposing how this administration

873
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,920
is operating. So that's been the challenge of the slush fund. Now,

874
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:07,159
the other piece was this.

875
00:46:07,159 --> 00:46:12,039
Speaker 2: Litigation that there's so important what you're saying and this word.

876
00:46:12,199 --> 00:46:15,079
So if you want an example of where a litigation

877
00:46:15,199 --> 00:46:18,000
group has stopped the government clear in its tracks, this

878
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,079
really is it. And of course on the podcast, we're

879
00:46:21,119 --> 00:46:24,480
talking a lot about the heroic role that federal judges

880
00:46:24,519 --> 00:46:27,360
have played outside of the Supreme Court, but that doesn't

881
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,920
come from nowhere. You need a case and you need clients,

882
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,639
and that's what you've been able to do. But just

883
00:46:32,679 --> 00:46:35,719
to clarify, because I think this is really important and

884
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:37,760
I'm not seeing it get the kind of coverage that

885
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:42,039
it should get. We saw the Acting Attorney General say

886
00:46:42,119 --> 00:46:44,880
essentially that the slush fund is dead. But now what

887
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,239
I hear you saying is that he's lying to us.

888
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,440
And maybe that shouldn't come as a surprise, but it

889
00:46:49,519 --> 00:46:52,039
is an important point. So am I right that they're

890
00:46:52,079 --> 00:46:53,960
still fighting you in court at the same time that

891
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:55,239
they're pretending that it's dead.

892
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:56,639
Speaker 7: Absolutely.

893
00:46:56,679 --> 00:46:58,639
Speaker 5: Not only are they fighting in court, just to be

894
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:04,119
very clear, they are refusing to sign documents to say

895
00:47:04,199 --> 00:47:07,400
instead like, if it's dead, then let's move on, right,

896
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,360
But that's not anything that they've been willing to swear to.

897
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:14,079
And actually the judge in our case gave them a

898
00:47:14,119 --> 00:47:17,760
few days to show up with evidence that the slush

899
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,480
phone was dead, and they couldn't do that. And so

900
00:47:20,599 --> 00:47:22,559
I think, you know, we're we're going to continue to

901
00:47:22,599 --> 00:47:23,880
monitor it day by day.

902
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 7: We're preparing the case.

903
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,159
Speaker 5: There's a trial date on the case for later this year,

904
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:30,360
so you know we will we have a schedule and everything.

905
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:35,760
But part of this really is the American people getting

906
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,280
to see with their own eyes the way this administration

907
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,159
says one thing but then won't really back it up

908
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:43,199
and tries to outrun accountability.

909
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 7: And what we know about the American.

910
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,800
Speaker 5: People is that the vast majority of people in this country,

911
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:49,960
regardless of whether they agree with each other on a

912
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,599
lot of things, they don't think that office holders and

913
00:47:53,639 --> 00:47:55,840
people that are presenting before courts and people that are

914
00:47:55,880 --> 00:48:00,559
presenting before Congress should be making incorrect and untruthful statements.

915
00:48:00,599 --> 00:48:02,519
And so I think this is one of really those

916
00:48:02,519 --> 00:48:04,800
things that's captured the imagination of a whole lot of

917
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,800
people across the political spectrum because of what we've seen,

918
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:09,800
which just briefly, I think you wanted to talk about

919
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,880
the IRS settlement which emanated, you know, which came out

920
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,519
of this Florida case that the Trump organization filed against

921
00:48:16,519 --> 00:48:19,159
the IRS, and then Trump came out and President Trump

922
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,000
came out and announced I've sued myself. Well, that's not

923
00:48:22,039 --> 00:48:24,159
a real good way to get the federal courts to

924
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:28,360
be excited. You have to have actual adversity in cases

925
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,280
and controversy in this country. And so what we did

926
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:33,880
in that case was we represented a range of former

927
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,880
officials that had served in IRS or in Treasury, had

928
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,760
served both Republicans and Democratic administrations to explain to the

929
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,679
court the various options that the court had. The Court

930
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:47,320
ended up taking those options, appointing Independent and Meki to ride,

931
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,360
you know, really ended up taking a lot of that,

932
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:50,639
we believe from the briefs.

933
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:52,800
Speaker 7: And then at the same time, we were very pleased

934
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:53,400
to see.

935
00:48:53,159 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 5: Thirty five federal judges, former federal judges, judges that had

936
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:00,239
been appointed by Republicans and Democrats file a pay were

937
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:02,840
in the case, really asking the court to consider whether

938
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,440
the Trump organization had engaged in fraud on the court.

939
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,960
And that's where the fireworks in that matter obviously have been.

940
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean really seem to I would have said,

941
00:49:13,119 --> 00:49:15,119
stopped them, called in their tracks, but of course they're

942
00:49:15,159 --> 00:49:17,840
pretending that this is over, at least in the slush

943
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,079
fund case, and it sounds like continuing. I mean, how

944
00:49:21,119 --> 00:49:23,519
do you see it seems like an interesting case study.

945
00:49:23,559 --> 00:49:27,400
We talk so often about stopping this administration, about the

946
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:29,280
role of the courts, but it seems like this is

947
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,840
a case study in both stopping them in court. You

948
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,519
did get this injunction against them, but yet that had

949
00:49:36,519 --> 00:49:41,480
a wider ramification and push politically the acting Attorney General

950
00:49:41,519 --> 00:49:43,960
to at least pretend that he was stopping all of this. So,

951
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:46,039
I mean, talk to me more. I want to ask

952
00:49:46,119 --> 00:49:48,119
more about how you get clients, because I think that's

953
00:49:48,159 --> 00:49:50,599
an interesting part of all of this and really part

954
00:49:50,639 --> 00:49:53,239
that's often not reported on. But talk to me more

955
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,840
generally about how have you seen this work, the sort

956
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:00,199
of combo of litigation and political pressure and getting them

957
00:50:00,199 --> 00:50:03,320
to back off, at least publicly as you continue to fight.

958
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:05,880
I mean, you're not just a litigation group, of course,

959
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:09,199
you're engaged in trying to stop an administration that's intent

960
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,639
on well destroying democracy, creating a fund to shut down

961
00:50:12,679 --> 00:50:13,440
its critics.

962
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 5: Every single day we see that, we say it's courts

963
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:20,199
plus people, and we always are very clear eyed that

964
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,440
the courts are hugely important tool and they're a tool

965
00:50:23,519 --> 00:50:26,119
that we should not underestimate. Even as one may be

966
00:50:26,159 --> 00:50:28,800
frustrated with some of the decisions out of the US

967
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:31,199
Supreme Court, the courts have been a huge tool. They're

968
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:33,800
protecting people every single day, and at the end of

969
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:35,559
the day, it is going to be the people. And

970
00:50:35,639 --> 00:50:37,960
so our work at democracy for it is really aimed

971
00:50:38,039 --> 00:50:40,920
at using both the courts and the people. But to

972
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:45,119
be clear, for us, the courts are a major way

973
00:50:45,159 --> 00:50:47,960
that people can have their voices heard. Now we have

974
00:50:48,079 --> 00:50:51,480
seen over and over again that the Act, you know,

975
00:50:51,519 --> 00:50:53,559
we have a saying around here. You know, if you

976
00:50:53,599 --> 00:50:56,639
don't fight, you can't win. And we have seen over

977
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:59,639
and over that the act of filing a lawsuit on

978
00:50:59,679 --> 00:51:02,960
behalf of brave clients who are willing to get into

979
00:51:03,039 --> 00:51:08,119
court with us, that that action has often delayed or

980
00:51:08,159 --> 00:51:11,760
stopped the administration in their tracks even before we get

981
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,199
court orders. So some examples on that. We filed a

982
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,320
case to block the administration's attempt to cut off funding

983
00:51:18,639 --> 00:51:21,760
for K through twelve education and higher education based on

984
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,760
teaching real history. They said, if you don't align with

985
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,000
the White House's views on civil rights or you know

986
00:51:28,079 --> 00:51:31,000
you're you're gonna you don't get your funding. We filed

987
00:51:31,039 --> 00:51:33,280
a case in federal court before a judge that President

988
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:36,400
Trump himself nominated. We won a court order on behalf

989
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:39,440
of our brave clients in that case, finding that this letter,

990
00:51:39,519 --> 00:51:41,239
this dear colleague letter, was unlawful.

991
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 7: But the administration didn't even appeal that.

992
00:51:43,639 --> 00:51:46,039
Speaker 5: They who are the letter up walked it back and

993
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:49,360
you know everything is blocked now. We see that a

994
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,239
lot with our funding freeze case. We are still actively

995
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:56,239
litigating it. It's on appeal. We blocked this nationwide funding freeze.

996
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,480
We had to go to court to block it. But

997
00:51:58,559 --> 00:52:00,480
what you saw was that the action of going to

998
00:52:00,519 --> 00:52:03,400
court and having a federal judge very early early days

999
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,360
of the administration say you know what is happening here,

1000
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,599
this looks completely arbitrary. That actually put the White House

1001
00:52:09,639 --> 00:52:11,760
in a difficult spot in their first White House press

1002
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,559
or where they had to show up and start defending

1003
00:52:14,639 --> 00:52:17,519
why people's Medicaid portals were closed and why meals on

1004
00:52:17,519 --> 00:52:20,079
wheels might not be working in a community. And so

1005
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:23,519
this is really a core tool, and it's a tool

1006
00:52:23,559 --> 00:52:27,199
I think that is underappreciated people that say that their

1007
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,639
strategy is they're going to try to work with the administration,

1008
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:32,920
They're going to try to do deals with the administration.

1009
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:34,679
I mean, I can talk a lot about how I

1010
00:52:34,679 --> 00:52:36,639
don't think that strategy is going to pay off for people.

1011
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,599
But even if you have that strategy, the way you

1012
00:52:39,679 --> 00:52:43,199
get to the negotiating table is to assert your rights

1013
00:52:43,199 --> 00:52:45,000
in court and to file a lawsuit. And we see

1014
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:46,559
that in our courts every single day.

1015
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:48,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we've seen that over and over with those

1016
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,480
who have tried to negotiate that they think they're giving

1017
00:52:51,519 --> 00:52:54,119
an inch. And then of course the administration says, look,

1018
00:52:54,119 --> 00:52:57,360
how weak these people are. Let's just ask exactly this

1019
00:52:57,519 --> 00:52:59,840
has seen that with the law firms, with the universities,

1020
00:53:00,079 --> 00:53:03,239
and your strategy. I think of saying this is illegal,

1021
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:05,199
you know, beginning with that, that puts you in a

1022
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,519
much better negotiating place. I mean, I also just want

1023
00:53:08,559 --> 00:53:11,880
to emphasize too, what you said, which is, although you

1024
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:15,880
know this is litigation and there is an aspect that's negotiation,

1025
00:53:16,039 --> 00:53:18,400
it also is publicity that this is. You know, so

1026
00:53:18,559 --> 00:53:21,679
much of the fact that the slush fund is being

1027
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:24,079
covered in this fake deal with the IRS, which is,

1028
00:53:24,119 --> 00:53:26,480
as you said, really a deal of Donald Trump and

1029
00:53:26,559 --> 00:53:29,800
himself and there's no real lawsuit there. All of that

1030
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:33,079
was exposed through the litigation. So that's why I think

1031
00:53:33,119 --> 00:53:37,320
this is so important. I mean this, Yeah, I think in.

1032
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 5: This media environment where there's such sensationalism and their algorithms

1033
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:44,280
are feeding you things, you know, one thing we have

1034
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,559
found is that a way, not always but a pretty

1035
00:53:47,559 --> 00:53:50,679
surefire way to cut through a lot of the noise

1036
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:53,639
and to really focus the public on what is actually

1037
00:53:53,679 --> 00:53:58,880
happening is through bringing litigation. Because the litigation, the facts

1038
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,920
come out. A break over Garcia, right, everybody remembers mister Garcia.

1039
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:07,079
His entire story blew up this idea that the White

1040
00:54:07,079 --> 00:54:08,599
House had that they were going to be able to

1041
00:54:08,599 --> 00:54:11,199
remove people from the country without any process, and that

1042
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:13,679
the American people weren't going to care because people got

1043
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:17,039
to know mister Garcia's situation and this story, and that

1044
00:54:17,119 --> 00:54:19,599
doesn't happen if you don't file the lawsuits.

1045
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:22,239
Speaker 2: And you know, it's such an important point that I

1046
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:23,639
want to come back to, and it was one of

1047
00:54:23,639 --> 00:54:25,280
the first things that you said that you know, you

1048
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:27,880
need the clients, You need the people, the brave people

1049
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:29,519
who are going to stand up and say this is

1050
00:54:29,559 --> 00:54:32,440
illegal and I've been harmed. And I think that isn't

1051
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:36,559
something that maybe even listeners of this podcast or those

1052
00:54:36,599 --> 00:54:39,840
who are watching the news more generally always understand about

1053
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:42,079
the way our courts work. You know, it's not like,

1054
00:54:42,159 --> 00:54:43,880
at least in this country, that you could come in

1055
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:47,559
and say you've acted unconstitutionally in some abstract idea. You

1056
00:54:47,639 --> 00:54:50,599
need an individual who's been harmed. And that's one of

1057
00:54:50,639 --> 00:54:54,320
the real successes that you've had in these lawsuits, both

1058
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,920
in the irs case but also in the slush fund case,

1059
00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:59,559
and finding the actual people who have been harmed. So

1060
00:54:59,599 --> 00:55:01,559
talk to me more about that, like how do you

1061
00:55:02,039 --> 00:55:04,960
find clients? You know, what's it like for them to

1062
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,639
stand up to the administration. They of course need to

1063
00:55:07,639 --> 00:55:10,159
give their names. Tell us about that about these hero

1064
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:13,719
kind of unsung heroes of so much of the resistance

1065
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:15,199
to Trump right now, they are.

1066
00:55:15,079 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 5: The heroes, and we, you know, we really want to

1067
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,360
lift up the role that ordinary people.

1068
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:23,920
Speaker 7: Of course I don't think they're ordinary. I think they're extraordinary, but.

1069
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:26,760
Speaker 5: Just people that are living in all different walks of

1070
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,760
life who have said, you know, I can see what's

1071
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:31,800
happening to my community, I can see what's happening to

1072
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:33,559
my family, I can see what's happening in my country,

1073
00:55:33,599 --> 00:55:35,440
and I want to do something about it. It really

1074
00:55:35,519 --> 00:55:38,320
is the thing that motivates us every day, that motivates

1075
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:38,719
our team.

1076
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 7: So sometimes clients, in many instances, clients come to us.

1077
00:55:42,559 --> 00:55:45,760
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, when Elon Musk was running through

1078
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:49,039
Washington decimating our civil servants, right the people that have

1079
00:55:49,119 --> 00:55:52,039
dedicated their careers to serving the American public, there was

1080
00:55:52,079 --> 00:55:54,559
a big panic about you know, what were they to do?

1081
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:59,000
How were they to respond? So in many instances clients

1082
00:55:59,039 --> 00:56:02,639
do come to us, But in some instances, people don't

1083
00:56:02,679 --> 00:56:04,840
know how to find a lawyer, they don't know that

1084
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:08,960
they can be represented free of charge. And also because

1085
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:11,000
of the way and I know your audience follows this,

1086
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:14,199
because of the way the laws have been interpreted, sometimes

1087
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:17,679
a single individual isn't actually the only planet that you need.

1088
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 7: Because we want to make sure.

1089
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:21,239
Speaker 5: That we can get relief for everyone in the country,

1090
00:56:21,639 --> 00:56:25,280
and the courts increasingly are looking at sort of like

1091
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:26,679
how widespread the harm is?

1092
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:28,840
Speaker 7: How can we demonstrate that? So we do a lot

1093
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:29,199
of work.

1094
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:31,679
Speaker 5: I mean, we represent a lot of associations, a lot

1095
00:56:31,679 --> 00:56:35,480
of groups that have members who are harmed by these

1096
00:56:35,519 --> 00:56:39,920
unlawful actions, but that can demonstrate that that harm is widespread,

1097
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:42,239
which helps us when court orders that can help more

1098
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:44,400
people as opposed to just you know, helping one or

1099
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:48,280
two individuals, and a lot of that work. You know,

1100
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:51,000
now it's much easier. A year and a half into this,

1101
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:54,320
when the administration first came on the scene and was

1102
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:57,559
really doing such harm to people, there was a lot

1103
00:56:57,639 --> 00:57:02,119
of fear among organizations if we cross them, what are

1104
00:57:02,119 --> 00:57:02,679
they going to do?

1105
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 7: Well?

1106
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,320
Speaker 5: What the problem with the way the administration has operated

1107
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,039
with their overreach is the only thing that's really won.

1108
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:10,559
The only way you really can get your way with

1109
00:57:10,559 --> 00:57:13,320
this administration right now has been to sue them. So

1110
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:16,159
now a lot of institutions or more institutions are seeing that,

1111
00:57:16,239 --> 00:57:18,840
which has been helpful in making sure we can make

1112
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:21,400
sure that people and communities can get into court.

1113
00:57:21,679 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 7: But there is a lot of fear.

1114
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,920
Speaker 5: I mean, people are very afraid because the administration is

1115
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:28,719
wanting them to be afraid. But I will tell you

1116
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,360
we have seen in our cases that litigation has actually

1117
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,920
been a protectant against people. I say all the time,

1118
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:38,400
this administration knows what to do with weakness, they don't

1119
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:40,840
always know what to do with strength. I mean, they

1120
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:43,800
will come after people no fault of their own, including

1121
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:46,239
incredibly buried and courageous people. So I'm not saying it's

1122
00:57:46,239 --> 00:57:49,760
one hundred percent, but in general, in general, they are

1123
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:53,400
much more interested in targets that they believe will capitulate

1124
00:57:53,559 --> 00:57:56,679
or will pull back, as opposed to people and communities

1125
00:57:56,679 --> 00:57:59,000
that will confront them in court. And that's really been

1126
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:01,440
the north star for a lot of our clients.

1127
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and of course the litigation that we're talking about

1128
00:58:04,519 --> 00:58:07,199
the creation of a slush fund to aid your allies

1129
00:58:07,599 --> 00:58:10,599
Trump allies and to shut down his opponents. What a

1130
00:58:10,639 --> 00:58:14,519
perfect example of the threat that people feel. But also,

1131
00:58:14,679 --> 00:58:17,480
I mean, what a great point that litigation is actually

1132
00:58:17,559 --> 00:58:19,719
what pushes them back. I mean, when you look at

1133
00:58:19,719 --> 00:58:22,840
those who have caved in the universities I'm thinking of

1134
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:25,599
in particular, and of course to the law firms, those

1135
00:58:25,719 --> 00:58:28,960
universities who have fought back have often won, and those

1136
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:31,519
who behave have been asked for more and more. And

1137
00:58:31,559 --> 00:58:34,840
so when people you know that at my university or

1138
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:37,079
at others, are asking should we fight or should we

1139
00:58:37,239 --> 00:58:40,280
back down, it's like there is no you know, partially

1140
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:43,239
backing down, there is no compromise. They're going to just

1141
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:46,000
demand more and more. In litigation is the thing that

1142
00:58:46,039 --> 00:58:48,519
actually protects you. It's not to say you can't negotiate,

1143
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:51,039
you know, once you begin to litigate and you know,

1144
00:58:51,079 --> 00:58:53,679
maybe you could make a reasonable settlement then, but backing

1145
00:58:53,679 --> 00:58:55,360
down is about the worst thing you can do in

1146
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:58,599
the face of such a bully that's trying to destroy democracy.

1147
00:58:59,079 --> 00:59:01,519
Speaker 5: Well, one thing we say is, you know the cost

1148
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:05,119
of inaction and the cost of action, and right now

1149
00:59:05,639 --> 00:59:08,599
there is a lot of people afraid of how costly

1150
00:59:08,639 --> 00:59:10,559
what the consequences would be for pushing.

1151
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 7: Back or for acting and their right to be afraid.

1152
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:15,519
Speaker 5: This is a really scary time. But what we know

1153
00:59:15,599 --> 00:59:18,360
about this time, and what the real risk assessments would show,

1154
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:22,440
is that the cost of inaction is higher than the

1155
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:26,480
cost of action. And I think that sometimes in these discussions,

1156
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:29,880
whether they're in boardrooms at universities or at companies, the

1157
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:33,920
cost of inaction gets minimized. And when you're looking at

1158
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:37,559
a political movement and an administration in this country that

1159
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:40,719
does not want to be held accountable to the constitution,

1160
00:59:41,239 --> 00:59:43,599
that does not want a democracy that is available to

1161
00:59:43,639 --> 00:59:47,039
all people, the cost of not doing anything or far

1162
00:59:47,119 --> 00:59:50,760
far higher than the cost of stepping up and being

1163
00:59:51,039 --> 00:59:53,880
part of the work to defend these rights and this

1164
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:54,719
form of government.

1165
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:58,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about action and defense of democracy. Can

1166
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:00,360
you tell us just some of I mean, of course,

1167
01:00:00,639 --> 01:00:02,559
one of the huge stories of the moment is that

1168
01:00:02,639 --> 01:00:06,880
Donald Trump has given a speech about threatening our elections,

1169
01:00:07,159 --> 01:00:09,920
claiming that they are insecure, and of course using that

1170
01:00:10,039 --> 01:00:14,679
as an excuse potentially to continue to cheat himself. He's tried,

1171
01:00:14,719 --> 01:00:19,360
through various proposed legislation to limit the right to vote

1172
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:21,480
of his opponents. And I know that you have a

1173
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:25,360
plethora of pieces of litigation, a number of lawsuits that

1174
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:28,639
are challenging this attempt to shut down democracy, both when

1175
01:00:28,639 --> 01:00:31,039
it comes to protecting our votes and also to get

1176
01:00:31,079 --> 01:00:33,800
transparency when it comes to some of the stuff that's

1177
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:35,639
going on behind the scenes that we got a little

1178
01:00:35,679 --> 01:00:38,840
window in his speech recently. So tell us what kinds

1179
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:41,760
of cases are you bringing here to protect our democracy

1180
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:42,199
and our argy?

1181
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think the.

1182
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:44,599
Speaker 5: Main I think, yeah, I think the main thing that's

1183
01:00:44,639 --> 01:00:46,320
really important for people that are tuning in to know

1184
01:00:46,559 --> 01:00:51,639
is that, largely speaking, the president's attempts to engage in

1185
01:00:51,679 --> 01:00:56,280
these conspiracy theories, the president's attempts to intimidate and try

1186
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:58,599
to get voter rolled, all those things, they are largely

1187
01:00:58,679 --> 01:01:02,880
being blocked in the courts. And that's no surprise because

1188
01:01:02,920 --> 01:01:06,519
the Constitution provides no basis for the president to have

1189
01:01:06,559 --> 01:01:08,440
a role in our elections like that. Just is what

1190
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:11,440
happened two hundred and fifty years ago. We didn't throw

1191
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:13,599
off the reigns of monarchy to put a president in

1192
01:01:13,679 --> 01:01:16,440
charge of elections, and that's how you know, you know,

1193
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:18,440
and that didn't change within the ten years between the

1194
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:21,360
declaration of independence and when the Constitution comes about. So

1195
01:01:21,639 --> 01:01:23,880
there's no real role for the president here, and the

1196
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:27,199
federal courts have been pretty uniformly seeing it for what

1197
01:01:27,239 --> 01:01:29,159
it is. So in cases that we are not involved

1198
01:01:29,199 --> 01:01:31,280
in that, I'll start with those first. You know, the

1199
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:34,199
Department of Justice, I believe is zero for sixteen in

1200
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:37,440
their attempts to get data from the states. Now we

1201
01:01:37,519 --> 01:01:41,719
have blocked alongside we are counsel at Democracy Forward, alongside

1202
01:01:41,719 --> 01:01:44,320
our friends at CREWE and the Fair Election Center, we

1203
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:48,119
have blocked the president's attempt to use this modified SAVE

1204
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:52,159
database within the Department of Homeland Security to aggregate information

1205
01:01:52,199 --> 01:01:53,599
and potentially to use that.

1206
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:56,239
Speaker 7: To remove voters from the roles. We've blocked that by

1207
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:57,000
a federal court.

1208
01:01:57,039 --> 01:02:00,440
Speaker 5: We're fighting literally every day on their complains alliance with

1209
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:03,679
that court order, but that has also been blocked. We

1210
01:02:03,719 --> 01:02:07,800
have exposed in another federal litigation that when DOGE was

1211
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:13,239
in Washington, they were accessing individual social security information and

1212
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:16,840
that a DOGE team members signed a voter data agreement

1213
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:20,800
with a third party organization that, by the Department of

1214
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:23,880
Justice's own telling, was engaged in seeking to overturn state

1215
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:27,360
election results. So we have won a major discovery order

1216
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:29,679
to get to the bottom of what's happening there. And

1217
01:02:29,679 --> 01:02:32,360
then right after the president's speech, just hours after the

1218
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:35,559
president's speech, we filed suit because the government has been

1219
01:02:35,639 --> 01:02:39,039
with holding documents from the FBI, the DOJ, and the

1220
01:02:39,079 --> 01:02:41,440
OD and I the very agencies that the President was

1221
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:44,800
trying to put at play. They've been withholding documents about

1222
01:02:45,119 --> 01:02:47,320
all of these types of conspiracies that of course we

1223
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:50,360
know the documents will show that these are just conspiracies.

1224
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:53,480
And so you will see that type of action from US.

1225
01:02:53,559 --> 01:02:56,480
You will see that type of action from other organizations,

1226
01:02:56,519 --> 01:02:59,639
from the state ags. There will be swift legal action

1227
01:03:00,079 --> 01:03:03,880
every time this administration seeks to do something to undermine

1228
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:06,119
the elections. And it's not going to be easy for

1229
01:03:06,159 --> 01:03:08,800
the president to do this, and our constitution doesn't permit it.

1230
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:10,840
And I think you saw even the US Supreme Court

1231
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:13,559
in this last term in the Mississippi decision.

1232
01:03:13,599 --> 01:03:14,440
Speaker 7: I think I think it was an.

1233
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:17,760
Speaker 5: Amy Coney Barrett opinion, you know, really explaining that there

1234
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:20,960
isn't a role for the president in some of these things.

1235
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:23,719
And so I think that we're feeling, you know, the lawyers.

1236
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:25,239
Speaker 7: Are going to do what we need to do.

1237
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:28,679
Speaker 5: But this is the type of election that every single

1238
01:03:28,719 --> 01:03:31,280
American is going to have to vote, is going to

1239
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:33,159
have to make a plan to vote, and is going

1240
01:03:33,199 --> 01:03:35,800
to have to sort of make up their minds and

1241
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:38,679
with their communities that we're not going to stand idly

1242
01:03:38,719 --> 01:03:42,119
by while an administration or any other tripe of force

1243
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:45,280
tries to undermine our elections. And there really may be

1244
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:48,320
actions that people in communities need to take in forms

1245
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:52,719
of peaceful mass mobilizations, education campaigns, helping accompany people of

1246
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:54,639
the polls. Those are going to be actions that we

1247
01:03:54,679 --> 01:03:57,559
may need to see over the coming weeks and months.

1248
01:03:57,559 --> 01:04:00,360
And at Democracy Forward, we've invested a lot, not just

1249
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:02,840
in our legal work, but also in helping to support

1250
01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:05,840
communities be able to engage in those peaceful and lawful

1251
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:07,400
ways to protect our democracy.

1252
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:11,440
Speaker 2: I'm interested in digging into this litigation that followed the speech,

1253
01:04:11,519 --> 01:04:13,119
because you know, I think a lot of people felt

1254
01:04:13,119 --> 01:04:16,119
powerless listening to this thing. It was so outrageous that

1255
01:04:16,159 --> 01:04:19,559
he's making all of these claims, both about the insecurity

1256
01:04:19,719 --> 01:04:24,239
of our elections generally when his party loses, but I

1257
01:04:24,239 --> 01:04:27,000
guess the security when he wins. And you know, it's

1258
01:04:27,079 --> 01:04:30,519
just a sort of mass confusion. And yet you responded

1259
01:04:30,559 --> 01:04:33,280
with a legal strategy and with litigation to try to

1260
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:35,920
figure out what's really going on here behind the curtain

1261
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:38,480
that we know just from what we're seeing that there's

1262
01:04:38,519 --> 01:04:42,400
pure chaos and there must be even more malicious activity

1263
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:44,280
going on behind the scenes. So how are you going

1264
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:46,760
about trying to get this information? You know, tell us

1265
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:49,480
more about how this lawsuit, in this litigation will work.

1266
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:51,519
I mean, it's one of those areas where I was

1267
01:04:51,599 --> 01:04:55,039
especially impressed to see you doing this because I thought, like, well,

1268
01:04:55,079 --> 01:04:58,000
you know, the administration at least claims it's a black box.

1269
01:04:58,039 --> 01:05:00,800
They don't. The whole way that corruption works, you know,

1270
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:04,719
the Nixon administration earlier is the presidents put veils of

1271
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:08,000
secrecy around themselves, and of course he's both wanting to

1272
01:05:08,079 --> 01:05:10,880
tell us about the insecurity of our elections and not

1273
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:13,360
show us any proof of that. And you're really trying

1274
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:16,679
to pierce that veil of secrecy to get transparency, to

1275
01:05:16,679 --> 01:05:18,960
get the truth. How are you doing that which we've been.

1276
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:19,320
Speaker 7: Able to do.

1277
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:21,440
Speaker 5: I just want to say that through our litigation, we've

1278
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:24,239
been able to uncover so many things. We've uncovered that

1279
01:05:24,239 --> 01:05:27,400
they were intimidating local communities that thought that they had

1280
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:30,000
to turn over voted data. So you know, this is

1281
01:05:30,039 --> 01:05:32,360
really important. So the Freedom of Information Act is of

1282
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:35,960
course an amazing and an important tool for the American people.

1283
01:05:36,159 --> 01:05:39,119
This is information that's in our government is the people's information.

1284
01:05:39,239 --> 01:05:42,239
It's not the information of a particular leader or the

1285
01:05:42,239 --> 01:05:44,800
people that follow that leader. This is the people's information.

1286
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:47,920
And so we have had a great success in using

1287
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:50,719
the Freedom of Information Act and the litigation when they

1288
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:53,960
don't respond and don't give over that data to force

1289
01:05:54,159 --> 01:05:57,719
production of information. That's been very helpful to protect people's

1290
01:05:57,800 --> 01:06:01,719
rights and to expose what is happening our other you know,

1291
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:04,639
our litigation cases that are not litigation under the Freedom

1292
01:06:04,639 --> 01:06:06,719
of Information Act. You know, the courts have a way

1293
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:08,920
of shining a light, and so we've been able to

1294
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:12,400
uncover so much of this through that litigation as well.

1295
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:15,679
You know, Justice Lewis Brandeis had said, you know, sunlight

1296
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:20,320
is the best disinfectant. And even in these times where

1297
01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:23,559
it seems that these threats are so accelerated, and this

1298
01:06:23,639 --> 01:06:26,679
country has faced major threats before, but these are very

1299
01:06:26,719 --> 01:06:31,800
accelerated and concerning almost unprecedented threats here, definitely unprecedented to

1300
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:35,079
have a president that's actively trying to keep people from

1301
01:06:35,079 --> 01:06:39,360
being able to participate in our elections. Exposure has still

1302
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:43,480
been a key key way that people have been able

1303
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:46,960
to push back and to stop bad activity, which is

1304
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:51,719
of course why the administration is seeking to intimidate journalists,

1305
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:56,039
is seeking to intimidate storytellers, is making outlandish claims that

1306
01:06:56,079 --> 01:06:58,559
you can't record what's happening on the public streets of

1307
01:06:58,599 --> 01:07:01,360
your community. Of course you can, but making these claims

1308
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:05,159
because they don't want that transparency and exposure. And so

1309
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:08,119
we are really pleased and honor that we can use

1310
01:07:08,159 --> 01:07:10,679
the tools that the law provides. Is an area of

1311
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:13,960
law that is still there, that is still providing these

1312
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:15,239
types of tools.

1313
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:15,840
Speaker 7: And we're going to use them.

1314
01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:18,800
Speaker 2: Well, what an amazing conversation this has been. I'm going

1315
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:21,400
to ask you one last question before we say goodbye.

1316
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:23,400
I mean, so much of the important work that you're

1317
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:27,400
doing and finding litigants and actually literally stopping this administration.

1318
01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:30,000
I just want to emphasize that point that you really

1319
01:07:30,039 --> 01:07:33,079
did stop the slush fund in its tracks. And you

1320
01:07:33,119 --> 01:07:36,679
know that's led to the administration claiming that they abandoned

1321
01:07:36,679 --> 01:07:39,320
it while it sounds like they're continuing, but you did

1322
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:43,519
stop it. This litigation works. You've provided information to us,

1323
01:07:43,559 --> 01:07:46,320
You've helped make this a story that we're all aware of,

1324
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:49,320
as you said too, and that's been true throughout this

1325
01:07:49,519 --> 01:07:52,480
administration and the Abrego Garcia case. The reason why we're

1326
01:07:52,519 --> 01:07:56,320
all talking about the seventeen ninety eight Alien Enemies Act

1327
01:07:56,400 --> 01:08:00,199
and their attempt to basically revoke due process off this

1328
01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:03,119
ancient litigation is because somebody stood up. There was a

1329
01:08:03,159 --> 01:08:06,199
client who was willing to push back. That's true of

1330
01:08:06,199 --> 01:08:09,280
a break of Garcia. So tell me though, too. I mean,

1331
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:11,320
just as a part of what we're always talking about

1332
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:13,719
on this podcast is of course the threat to democracy,

1333
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:16,720
but also the future. I mean, this is there legislation.

1334
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:19,319
What would you like to see going forward for us

1335
01:08:19,359 --> 01:08:22,319
not just to get Donald Trump out of office, but

1336
01:08:22,359 --> 01:08:25,960
to see our democracy restored. I'll just invite you to

1337
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:27,960
speak more generally about what we were Yeah, I.

1338
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:30,439
Speaker 5: Mean, I love this question, and I have to say

1339
01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:33,960
that we know that it's not just about the restoration

1340
01:08:34,039 --> 01:08:37,359
of democracy, It's really about the reimagining of democracy. Our

1341
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:40,960
country is an amazing country and the ideals it was

1342
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:44,199
founded on the way in which it was founded. For

1343
01:08:44,319 --> 01:08:47,560
all of the setbacks and all of the injustices. It

1344
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:50,000
was the first country in the world that was founded

1345
01:08:50,039 --> 01:08:55,520
on common ideals as opposed to historical accident or necessity

1346
01:08:55,960 --> 01:08:59,800
or survival. But from the beginning of that founding, of

1347
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:02,840
course worse the promises and the practices didn't match up.

1348
01:09:03,159 --> 01:09:06,720
The country was founded on stolen land. It was founded

1349
01:09:07,159 --> 01:09:11,359
and you know, in the midst of human enslavement and

1350
01:09:11,399 --> 01:09:14,319
in the disenfranchising of the vast majority of people that

1351
01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:17,800
lived within the country's claimed borders, whether they were women,

1352
01:09:18,239 --> 01:09:22,159
people of color, non property owners, couldn't vote. And so

1353
01:09:22,319 --> 01:09:24,039
this is a moment where we have to be honest

1354
01:09:24,079 --> 01:09:27,520
about that history. For all it's good and all it's bad,

1355
01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:29,880
and I just listed a lot of the bad pieces

1356
01:09:30,359 --> 01:09:32,239
of our history, and we have to be honest that

1357
01:09:32,279 --> 01:09:35,800
it has been ordinary people across this country that have

1358
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:40,640
pushed to make promises actually practices, that have pushed to

1359
01:09:40,760 --> 01:09:44,399
really realize a democracy that is made to hold all

1360
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:47,720
of us. And this is an amazing moment where as

1361
01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:51,920
people are seeing what is at stake, and as powerful

1362
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:55,800
institutions have been pulling back, people have been stepping forward.

1363
01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:57,680
Speaker 7: And so what we want to see.

1364
01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:01,159
Speaker 5: Is our systems and structures really be set up to

1365
01:10:01,279 --> 01:10:03,640
hold all of us. That means that we need to

1366
01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:07,079
talk seriously about Supreme Court reform. It means that we

1367
01:10:07,119 --> 01:10:10,000
need to look at things like the electoral college, or

1368
01:10:10,039 --> 01:10:12,720
the filibuster, or a number of things that exists within

1369
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:16,119
our representative system that was here to try to restrict

1370
01:10:16,119 --> 01:10:20,119
democracy as opposed to empower democracy. And then on a

1371
01:10:20,159 --> 01:10:22,479
more granular level, there's a lot of work that needs

1372
01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:24,760
to be done to make sure that when people dedicate

1373
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:29,279
their lives to serving our country as career civil servants,

1374
01:10:29,479 --> 01:10:31,680
that there are protections for them so that they don't

1375
01:10:31,760 --> 01:10:34,960
get treated the way our civil servants have been treated now,

1376
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:36,680
and so that a leader can't come in and just

1377
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:40,079
like eradicate the professional civil service and replace them with

1378
01:10:40,159 --> 01:10:42,800
partisan loyalists. We need to make sure that there's more

1379
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:48,319
comprehensive anti corruption laws, because this country was not really

1380
01:10:48,520 --> 01:10:51,760
did not really contemplate that the government itself would have

1381
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:54,399
widespread corruption. And so, as you know, our laws are

1382
01:10:54,439 --> 01:10:56,720
set up for the government to want to root out

1383
01:10:56,800 --> 01:11:01,239
individual instances of corruption within the government, set up for

1384
01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:04,319
the government itself to be broadly and widely corrupt, and

1385
01:11:04,359 --> 01:11:07,479
we now have a lot of challenges as a result

1386
01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:10,520
of the deep corruption that we're seeing. So we're deeply

1387
01:11:10,600 --> 01:11:13,760
hopeful about what people are doing in this moment. I

1388
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:16,520
think we think that it's a really hard moment and

1389
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:19,479
it may get worse before it gets better, but we

1390
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:22,079
are also deeply hopeful about what this crisis can do

1391
01:11:22,199 --> 01:11:26,479
to catalyze real change, not just performative change, but real

1392
01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:30,680
change that truly helps to bring about a democracy that

1393
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:32,840
we've never had in this country, but that so many

1394
01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:35,960
people across so many generations have been working to achieve.

1395
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:40,159
Speaker 2: What a great place to end. Absolutely in times of crisis,

1396
01:11:40,159 --> 01:11:42,880
that's where we often find the moment to not just

1397
01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:46,159
push back against the president causing the crisis, but to

1398
01:11:46,199 --> 01:11:49,479
rebuild our democracy. And like you, I'm hopeful that we'll

1399
01:11:49,479 --> 01:11:52,000
do that at this moment and in the future, and

1400
01:11:52,039 --> 01:11:54,560
that we won't just stop Donald Trump, but that will

1401
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:57,000
do much more. But of course, thank you too for

1402
01:11:57,119 --> 01:12:00,520
your work in stopping Donald Trump and the Lush fun

1403
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:03,640
case and so many other pieces of litigation that you

1404
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:07,119
and your amazing group Democracy Forward have been involved with.

1405
01:12:07,359 --> 01:12:10,880
Sky Perryman, thanks for joining the pleasure.

1406
01:12:11,279 --> 01:12:15,159
Speaker 1: Thank you so much outstating work, Professor. Thank you very

1407
01:12:15,239 --> 01:12:15,600
much for that.

1408
01:12:16,319 --> 01:12:18,359
Speaker 2: You know It really is a pleasure to do this

1409
01:12:18,399 --> 01:12:22,119
show with you, John every week, because we're documenting what's happening,

1410
01:12:22,119 --> 01:12:25,439
we're being honest about it, about the brutality of ice,

1411
01:12:25,520 --> 01:12:28,439
about an attorney general who thinks he's the personal criminal

1412
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:31,960
lawyer of the president, of a speech that was meant

1413
01:12:32,039 --> 01:12:35,920
to indict the insecurity of our elections, but really revealed

1414
01:12:35,960 --> 01:12:39,680
the president's own motivation to try to steal our elections.

1415
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:42,039
And then to combine it with the chance on this

1416
01:12:42,159 --> 01:12:45,680
show to speak to, you know, somebody who maybe listeners

1417
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:49,079
have heard on MS now or on your show, John,

1418
01:12:49,159 --> 01:12:51,199
but some of them, and many of them will be

1419
01:12:51,239 --> 01:12:57,239
introduced for the first time, who's actually leading a really massive, powerful,

1420
01:12:57,359 --> 01:13:00,279
brilliant organization with some of the best lawyers out their

1421
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former Department of Justice officials. As I mentioned, I had

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the chance to work with Sky Perryman's team on the

1423
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Terrorist Brief, which I'll add was an instance where where

1424
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:16,000
litigation stopped the president from acting like a dictator. And so,

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you know, on the one hand, it's a frightening moment,

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01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:21,079
but I'm so glad that we got to have that

1427
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discussion with Sky Perryman and to talk about democracy forward

1428
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and you know, we'll keep going and next week we'll

1429
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:31,319
have David French on the show. An amazing conversation there,

1430
01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:34,279
so what a pleasure. John. Thanks, thanks, thank you everyone

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01:13:34,359 --> 01:13:36,600
for listening, and thanks for making this, by the way,

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01:13:37,119 --> 01:13:40,560
not just a top podcast, but the number one trending

1433
01:13:40,640 --> 01:13:45,840
podcast on Apple Government. And if you haven't subscribed, definitely

1434
01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:48,079
subscribe and tell your friends about the show.

1435
01:13:48,479 --> 01:13:50,079
Speaker 1: I want to thank Wendy and Beyo Wolf and everyone

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01:13:50,079 --> 01:13:52,960
who puts the show together, and thank you Professor. As always,

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01:13:52,960 --> 01:13:55,000
I'm John Fegele Sang. We will see you next time

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01:13:55,239 --> 01:13:57,880
on the open of the office.