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Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week, 29 00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:29.920 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 30 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:34.000 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 31 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:38.040 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 32 00:01:46.959 --> 00:01:49.280 Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 33 00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:52.159 program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime 34 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:55.560 history and the authors that have written about them. His 35 00:01:55.640 --> 00:01:58.040 trials have garnered him a claim as one of the 36 00:01:58.079 --> 00:02:01.400 greatest criminal defense lawyers of the cent He's the white 37 00:02:01.400 --> 00:02:05.840 tornado in court, a semantic samurai, a shyman, a shaman, 38 00:02:06.280 --> 00:02:08.759 a bard, a hero to some, a trickster to others, 39 00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:12.159 and always a force to be reckoned with, respected by all. 40 00:02:13.240 --> 00:02:15.759 Lust for Justice, the radical life and Law of j 41 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:19.439 Tony Sarah is a no holds barred examination of the man, 42 00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:23.919 his renegade lifestyle, his resolute beliefs, and the legal system 43 00:02:23.960 --> 00:02:28.439 he serves and transforms. Filled with murder, drugs, and death 44 00:02:28.439 --> 00:02:33.360 penalty cases, snitches, the psychological elements of crime, the nullification 45 00:02:33.479 --> 00:02:37.159 of nexus with juries, closing arguments in more. Lust for 46 00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:40.599 Justice pulls the black robe off the justice system to 47 00:02:40.680 --> 00:02:44.360 reveal what it is. A Railroad to Prison for Minorities. 48 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:48.319 Author and artist Paulette Franco follow Tony Sarah in and 49 00:02:48.319 --> 00:02:50.120 out of the courtroom for more than a decade to 50 00:02:50.199 --> 00:02:53.599 capture in words and images this man who embodies justice 51 00:02:53.639 --> 00:02:56.840 and drama at their best in Lust for Justice, to 52 00:02:56.960 --> 00:02:58.599 view the law through the eyes of one of its 53 00:02:58.599 --> 00:03:01.919 greatest practitioners, and you'll never look at it the same 54 00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:05.800 way again. The focus of our program this evening is 55 00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:10.800 the book Lust for Justice with my special guest, artist 56 00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:13.919 and author Paul Atte Frankel, the Radical Life and Law 57 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:19.199 of Jay Tony Sarah. And with me joining Paul Atte 58 00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:23.400 Frankel is Jay Tony Sarah or Tony Sarah. Welcome to 59 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:26.840 the program, Jay Tony Sarah and Paul Atte Frankel, and 60 00:03:26.840 --> 00:03:37.439 thank you for ingredient to this interview. Good evening, Tony, 61 00:03:37.479 --> 00:03:39.960 and good evening, Paulette, and thank you for agreeing to 62 00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:40.520 this interview. 63 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:42.159 Thank you for having us. 64 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:49.000 Yes, we're eager to help and we're appreciative of your interest. 65 00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:54.680 Thank you very much. Now let's really introduce this. Paultte. 66 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:58.039 Tell us a little bit about your background and why 67 00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:02.199 a courtroom artist and an artist in general, and how 68 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:04.879 you decided to and why you decided to write a 69 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:07.719 book about Tony Sarah. Tell us what brought you to 70 00:04:07.800 --> 00:04:09.520 this particular project. 71 00:04:12.080 --> 00:04:16.000 This book was sort of like I don't know, an 72 00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:22.160 unplanned for baby or child. I saw Tony Sarah in 73 00:04:22.279 --> 00:04:27.360 court and was absolutely blown away by his intensity. He 74 00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:33.160 was archetypal energy itself, and as an artist, I sort 75 00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:38.360 of set my sights on being able to do him 76 00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:44.120 justice artistically speaking. I thought, if I could begin to 77 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:49.600 portray his many facets, his faces, his sides, his passion, 78 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:54.639 his compassion, his rage in art form, I would have 79 00:04:54.759 --> 00:04:57.759 arrived as an artist. In my own opinion, in my 80 00:04:57.800 --> 00:05:02.399 own eyes, I've made it kind of my purpose in 81 00:05:02.439 --> 00:05:07.519 life to follow him around and do that. And during 82 00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:11.240 a large trial, the l Nesler trial, which he invited 83 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:17.720 me to attend, I asked him, Tony, where's the book. 84 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:21.560 There's so much publicity and the media is all over 85 00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:24.040 this thing, and why is there no book about you? 86 00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:29.120 And he grumbled, as is his style, and so I said, 87 00:05:29.199 --> 00:05:32.319 let's do one art your words, and I fully expected 88 00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:38.120 him to write the book, but he didn't. He eventually 89 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:43.079 just threw boxes and boxes and boxes of newspaper clippings 90 00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:47.680 and tape recordings and photos and sort of shards of 91 00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:50.800 his life at me and said here, it's your baby. 92 00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:53.959 I don't have time, and I felt like I'd just 93 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:57.759 been swallowed by an avalanche. So that's basically how it began. 94 00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:01.959 Right now, Tony, maybe you can take us back to 95 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:06.959 your own background that obviously shaped your unique philosophy. So 96 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:09.199 tell us a little bit, take us back to when 97 00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:11.240 you were born, and tell us a little bit about 98 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:15.879 your family life that obviously shaped your personal philosophy. And 99 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:18.319 along the way, I guess you could tell us some 100 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:20.680 of those things that did shape your philosophy and what 101 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:24.120 that philosophy is in your own personal life. 102 00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:29.720 Out the abbreviated form. I was what they call a 103 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:35.519 home birth in San Francisco, California, in nineteen thirty four. 104 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:41.560 Each of my parents said, not one, you know went 105 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:44.879 through the third grade. When went through the fourth grade. 106 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:50.360 My father worked a union worker in the factory and 107 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:57.079 was steady, and so there was you know, food and schooling, nourishment. 108 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:05.079 I regard my self as an upper lower class because 109 00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:10.959 my father worked and supported his family in a good way. 110 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:16.399 I think he was never a citizen. He came over 111 00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:20.360 from New York at a very young age. In New 112 00:07:20.439 --> 00:07:24.639 York as an Ireland you know, off of Spain and Mediterranean, 113 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:29.720 never applied for citisenship. So I don't know in that sense, 114 00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:33.480 and maybe in a limited sense one I identified with proletariat. 115 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:38.600 I identified with Union at an early age, identified with immigrant, 116 00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:46.480 identified with bilingual. It's been a life long identification that 117 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:50.439 I have what's what used to be called proletariat class, 118 00:07:50.519 --> 00:07:54.839 and proletariat class most of the time is victim, you know, 119 00:07:55.319 --> 00:08:00.439 of the broader society or the dominant, let's call it 120 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:03.600 a milieu of the society. So I think at an 121 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:10.360 early stage I was robustly anti establishment, anti authority, anti 122 00:08:10.759 --> 00:08:19.160 law enforcement, anti in penology, anti criminal prosecution. You know, 123 00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:26.639 I just quickly adhere to a very negative, almost neolistic 124 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:34.440 view pertaining to stablishments, principles and more rays behavior, the 125 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:42.600 distribution of wealth, et cetera, et cetera. So oddly I 126 00:08:42.639 --> 00:08:45.879 got good grades, so I was almost straight A through 127 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:49.399 high school, and I was an athlete, and so I 128 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:55.799 went down to Stanford and actually became more intellectual and 129 00:08:55.960 --> 00:09:00.000 less athletic. But I did box and give my life. 130 00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:02.159 I played on the football team. I played on the 131 00:09:02.200 --> 00:09:05.440 baseball team. I did all of them poorly, but I 132 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:09.240 continued that. But at the same time I became a 133 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:17.200 philosophy major, specializing in epistemology and English Minor eighteen fifty 134 00:09:17.240 --> 00:09:21.840 to nineteen hundred English literature. So there's this kind of 135 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:28.080 you know, potential intellect academic lifestyle that could have somehow 136 00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:32.159 been out there, but somehow that was rejected readily, and 137 00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:35.840 so I found myself in North Africa kind of doing 138 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:41.360 a hemiway thing, you know, romanticizing the fallacy of being 139 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:47.399 the ex patriot, you know, writing from a foreign port 140 00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:52.279 with a foreign perspective, and I don't know, somehow, you know, 141 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:56.960 being accepted as a writer at that point. And it 142 00:09:57.000 --> 00:09:59.879 was ill found that I fell into a group that 143 00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:06.799 we're doing a lot of opiates and hashiuse, etc. And 144 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:10.080 after a while I felt that my life had fallen 145 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:16.440 kind of too much into sensualities and not enough academia 146 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:20.759 and not enough political content. So I applied at the 147 00:10:20.840 --> 00:10:26.519 University of California by mail in those days, and I 148 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:31.039 went to Bolt Hall, which is UC Berkeley, and it 149 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:38.120 was in the late fifties early sixties, and things were 150 00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:41.000 just starting to move At that time, we had the 151 00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:46.399 free speech movement, and we had you know, campus demonstrations. 152 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:54.919 So I quickly absorbed that mentality and identified with that mentality. 153 00:10:55.080 --> 00:10:58.000 And then I was a good student. I was near 154 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:01.080 the top of my class, and so I was bright 155 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:03.759 enough to write the briefs and bold enough to go 156 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:06.519 into courts or right away when I started, I call 157 00:11:06.600 --> 00:11:08.679 it the Golden Age of law. I was represented the 158 00:11:08.679 --> 00:11:12.279 Black Panthers and the white Panthers. I represented the SLA. 159 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:16.840 I represented the Black Gorilla Family. I represented Juie Newton 160 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:22.440 himself after he returned from Cuban the murder case Russell 161 00:11:22.519 --> 00:11:26.080 Little of the SLA. I represented Jacques Roger of the 162 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:30.200 Newer Liberation Front. So I right away I started because 163 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:36.279 San Francisco was just a complete, you know, political tornado 164 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:38.919 at that time, and I was in the swirl of it. 165 00:11:39.399 --> 00:11:42.960 And so I practiced very vigorously. I was a pro 166 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:46.600 bono lawyer. I've always been, you know, a pro bono lawyer. 167 00:11:47.080 --> 00:11:52.720 I take playing cases only to pay everything required to practice. 168 00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:58.000 I don't believe ultimately in profiteering from law. So I 169 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:01.480 was very popular. I was very outsped. I as I 170 00:12:01.559 --> 00:12:06.399 look back, I you know, suffered more contempt charges than 171 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:08.600 any other lawyer in the area. I went to all 172 00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:13.080 the various jails on contempt to mostly connected with political causes. 173 00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:17.519 So I blossomed in the sixties into what's called a 174 00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:21.120 radical lawyer, and somehow I got hooked, you know, on 175 00:12:21.240 --> 00:12:24.360 jury trials. So I became a jury trial specialist and 176 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:27.399 was known and still known, you know, so I don't 177 00:12:27.399 --> 00:12:30.440 even know fifty years later, as what they call a 178 00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:33.799 back to back jury person. That's like a public defender 179 00:12:33.879 --> 00:12:37.200 for life, you know, going to one trial after the next. 180 00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:41.159 Not all weble some of them, you know, completely, what 181 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:44.159 they call dead on arrival, but going for the hang, 182 00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:47.159 you know, going for the political element, going for the 183 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:51.559 larger vision. And it's been very exciting. And you know, 184 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:55.159 I'm getting up there in age and I'm still doing 185 00:12:55.240 --> 00:12:56.279 that very vigorously. 186 00:12:57.519 --> 00:13:00.000 He is Ryan here, and I have a question for you. 187 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:02.720 What do you do when you win? Like, are you 188 00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:06.159 at fist pumper, a wooer, a handclapper, a high fiver. 189 00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:07.799 I kind of like the high five. But if you 190 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:09.840 want to hone in on those winning moves, check out 191 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:13.080 Chumbuck Casino at Chumbecasino dot com. Choose some hundreds of 192 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:16.320 social casino style games for your chance to redeem serious 193 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:19.759 cash prize. There are new game releases weekly, plus free 194 00:13:19.879 --> 00:13:22.480 daily bonuses, so don't wait start having the most fun 195 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:24.679 ever at Chumbuck Casino dot com. 196 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:27.039 Noiber necessary, dly RIVOI where everybody lost in terms of 197 00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:27.960 conditions eighty plus. 198 00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:31.120 Or instance, I was in a special circumstance case for 199 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:34.720 about over two months. That's my last the trial and 200 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:39.919 that means either death penalty or l WOP life without possibility. 201 00:13:40.039 --> 00:13:42.399 Prole then turned out to be l WOP, so the 202 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:47.600 man's life was saved. And I had two trial sets 203 00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:50.759 for this week that did not go. So I'm still 204 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:55.559 at nearly seventy eight. But I'm still going like I 205 00:13:55.840 --> 00:13:59.080 did in the sixties, working six or seven days a week, 206 00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:04.320 you know, completely obsessed, completely, you know, possessed by the 207 00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:08.639 case and by the issues our office represents, you know, 208 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:14.120 the occupiers, which I considered the most significant movement presently. 209 00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:17.799 We go, you know, to a number of cities in 210 00:14:17.879 --> 00:14:21.799 northern California to do so. We take political cases. I 211 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:26.759 still represent the Elf and Alf when the time arises, 212 00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:33.600 I represent people demonstrate in Berkeley, so in a way, 213 00:14:34.600 --> 00:14:39.080 I'm an extension still in the sixties. I have disavowed 214 00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:46.080 no ownership property, so I don't have real property, have 215 00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:49.960 an old car. I pay rent in the vicinity of 216 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:55.960 about four hundred dollars a month. I have no real 217 00:14:56.159 --> 00:15:06.799 material appetites. Therefore, frugal lifestyle and committed you know, to 218 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:09.480 case after case and will do so, I guess until 219 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:12.320 like Coachina, we're dire of a heart attack during the 220 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:15.960 close in argument. That's the abbreviated history of me. 221 00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:21.879 Yes, well, thank you. Now, Paul Att tell us, basically, 222 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:26.840 Tony has told us about his background, and of course, 223 00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:28.720 very humbly, he's not going to be able to tell 224 00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:32.320 us everything about his character. But tell us a little 225 00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:38.519 bit more about what attracted you, specifically in terms of 226 00:15:38.600 --> 00:15:41.759 his philosophy, what sort of compelled you because you talked 227 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:44.519 in such glowing terms and it's like you've known him 228 00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:47.639 forever and ever, so you've obviously gotten close to him. 229 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:50.679 So tell us about the very first time that the 230 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:53.399 case that you got invited to and we're talking about 231 00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:58.159 the Elie Nessler case, and what you were what you 232 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:03.200 admired about his philosophy and saw that philosophy and application 233 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:04.360 at this trial. 234 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:08.440 Well, first of all, the Eli Nessler case was not 235 00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:12.519 the first time that Tony and I had that I 236 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:14.879 was in the courtroom with Tony. It was my first 237 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:17.600 big case that he had done. Tony does a lot 238 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:21.559 of cases that get no mention because they're not high 239 00:16:21.639 --> 00:16:26.720 profile cases. But to answer your question, I'm sort of 240 00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:31.720 a drama junkie. I go where the you know, where 241 00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:35.720 intense energy is, and I find myself. I'm a moth 242 00:16:35.840 --> 00:16:38.559 I guess that likes to be singed, but not burned. 243 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:43.279 And so I was. I just kind of by dumb 244 00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:45.519 luck ended up in a courtroom while waiting for a 245 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:52.000 friend to do finish a nursing exam, and it happened 246 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:54.279 to be a good case. Most cases, or an awful 247 00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:57.000 lot of them, are so boring you just can hardly 248 00:16:57.080 --> 00:16:59.679 stay awake. But this was an exciting case and I 249 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:02.279 started to sketch it. It was the first time I 250 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:05.319 sketched in a courtroom, and I thought, this is great. 251 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:09.079 I can do this. And a lawyer said, if you 252 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:12.920 want drums, if it's drama you're looking for, Tony, Sarah's 253 00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:14.960 your man. There's no one that can hold a candle 254 00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:18.279 to him. He's the law and drama at his best. 255 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:21.559 He wears funky old clothes from the thrift, he has 256 00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:27.960 long hair, he gets up there without notes. He's incredibly perceptive, 257 00:17:28.039 --> 00:17:33.279 he's hard hitting, and he's just he's the one. He's 258 00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:36.119 the drama of the courtroom. So I tried to chase 259 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:40.200 him down, and it took me a year. People kept 260 00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:43.480 putting me off and sending me in on wrong directions, 261 00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:46.799 and I was in irritation to his office staff, and 262 00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:50.480 for some reason, I felt like life was blocking me 263 00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:55.480 from this, this great encounter with Tony Sarah. And finally, 264 00:17:55.599 --> 00:17:58.759 after a year, I did encounter him, and at that 265 00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:02.319 time I felt like maybe my skills were such that 266 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:06.720 I could begin to draw him in a way that 267 00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:10.079 would be meaningful. But even at that it took me 268 00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:14.480 a lot longer to be able to draw him in 269 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:18.240 a way that really conveyed his energy and his passions. 270 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:23.680 So the Eli and Nesler case was that was the first, big, big, 271 00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:25.839 big case. And I've forgotten what the rest of your 272 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:26.640 question was. 273 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:29.000 Well, you know, the thing is what we would talk 274 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:32.519 about too, is you talk about the drama. But before 275 00:18:32.599 --> 00:18:37.880 I'd agreed to take this, to do this interview. Before 276 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:40.400 you had even approached me, I'd seen Tony, but of 277 00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:43.039 course I didn't recollect his name. But I have seen 278 00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:46.160 footage of Tony in courts. So when we're talking drama, 279 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:48.720 and then what I thought was interesting is the thing 280 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:54.759 that you included is his again Maverick Cavalier techniques here 281 00:18:54.839 --> 00:18:57.160 that he includes and that you've included as sort of 282 00:18:57.240 --> 00:18:59.640 a well, this is what this is the lengths that 283 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:01.720 he will go to, and these are the kinds of 284 00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:04.519 things that he employs, which is when you talk about 285 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:07.359 letting his hair down and putting it in a ponytail 286 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:10.079 one day and letting it run free and then and 287 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:12.519 talking it under, you know. So tell us a little 288 00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:16.240 bit about why you're saying that he's dramatic for those 289 00:19:16.279 --> 00:19:18.000 people who haven't seen any footage, And what do you 290 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:19.519 mean by dramatic. 291 00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:23.240 Well, most lawyers, most of in fact, I would I 292 00:19:23.319 --> 00:19:26.680 think I can almost clearly say, with the exception of 293 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:29.920 perhaps Jerry Spence, that the case is that I have 294 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:35.119 attended with other lawyers. They're cerebral and quite frankly, you 295 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:38.160 know that has its place, but it's also very limited. 296 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:43.759 Tony fights from the gut and he hits the jury 297 00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:46.839 in their humanity, and he hit me in my humanity, 298 00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:51.079 and I was taken to places I had never been before. 299 00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:56.599 And his rage is so unbridled that I thought, my god, 300 00:19:57.160 --> 00:19:59.799 you know what's it like to be like that? To 301 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:04.400 I feel like that? And more excitingly, to draw that. 302 00:20:05.480 --> 00:20:07.680 And in order for me to draw it, I had 303 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:13.759 to perceive him in my own body structure so that 304 00:20:13.880 --> 00:20:17.559 I could draw from my gut and not from I 305 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:23.279 don't know, just window shopping the situation. And so when 306 00:20:23.359 --> 00:20:28.200 Tony is representing a client, you get the feeling that 307 00:20:28.279 --> 00:20:32.359 he's not holding back. And most lawyers feel like they're 308 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:35.680 just sort of mouthing words that have a lot of 309 00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:40.839 sort of I don't know, high educational value, and if 310 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:44.240 somebody is not an intellectual, they barely even understand what 311 00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:49.359 they're saying. But there's nothing not understandable about Tony. I mean, 312 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:53.279 he's a wild man in court. He will go to 313 00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:56.559 the lengths of frothing at the mouth. It's really quite shocking, 314 00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:01.279 and I don't know that lighted me. I don't ask 315 00:21:01.400 --> 00:21:03.319 me why I like that. I like gorillas. 316 00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:06.920 I like wild things, right, Yes, what. 317 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:09.960 I meant by dramatic too, is that you capture it 318 00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:12.319 in your art, which was included in your book, again 319 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:16.119 very unique book, and that this type of art is included. 320 00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:19.960 And again we'll talk a little bit more near the 321 00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:23.440 end about the artwork itself and what you were trying 322 00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:25.400 to achieve it with it as well. But really some 323 00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:29.079 of it is just how energetic he is in court 324 00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:31.759 and waving his arms around and willing to take the 325 00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:35.799 role of the victim and the perpetrator and acting out 326 00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:39.000 and pantomiming. So that's what I mean by drama too. 327 00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:42.599 That's very, very unusual for lawyers to get past their 328 00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:46.480 sort of staid composure to be able to start acting 329 00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:50.279 out the drama of a murder insay, for example, in 330 00:21:50.359 --> 00:21:52.960 a murder trial or some of the other trials that 331 00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:53.880 you included in the book. 332 00:21:53.960 --> 00:21:56.559 So I don't know anybody else who's doing that. And 333 00:21:57.160 --> 00:22:00.640 in his heat of passion, he doesn't talk about heat 334 00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:04.279 of passion, he becomes it. And the jury is, you know, 335 00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:07.799 usually rather horrified. They've most of them have never seen 336 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:12.480 heat of passion in their face, and Tony just he 337 00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:17.160 becomes the rage and the craziness that he's representing that 338 00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:22.759 led to this event that usually is a murder or 339 00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:27.400 something of that caliber, and he he is it. You know, 340 00:22:27.559 --> 00:22:31.160 you just get you get you get it, you get 341 00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:32.839 the idea of what's going on here. 342 00:22:34.279 --> 00:22:37.680 Right now, Tony, for for our audience to really try 343 00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:40.640 to explain why you're such a radical lawyer. When I 344 00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:42.920 first heard that you were a radical lawyer, I said, well, 345 00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:45.359 what's he going to do? Tell the truth? Because you know, 346 00:22:45.559 --> 00:22:48.559 I didn't even know what that meant. But the Elie 347 00:22:49.640 --> 00:22:54.640 Nessler case you call it maternal justice, but really i'd 348 00:22:54.680 --> 00:22:58.640 almost my title would be maternal instinct or cool blooded murder. 349 00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:01.440 Now tell us a little bit, tell us about the 350 00:23:01.559 --> 00:23:05.359 Elie Nessler case, Tony, and why it was important to you, 351 00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:09.079 and what the case represented to you. Please take us 352 00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:12.319 through the case briefly. What did it represent to you? 353 00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:17.000 When I first met her, she was represented by a 354 00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:21.359 very fine lawyer from the East Coast with a lot 355 00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:29.319 of jury experience, and how would I say eloquent, you know, 356 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:34.880 not a routine lawyer. He wanted to present her as 357 00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:41.720 a oh, I don't know, you know, a person who 358 00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:50.480 righteously or you know, morally, committed an act almost like 359 00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:58.759 jury nullification that was required by what had occurred, he 360 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:03.319 did not want to present her with any kind of 361 00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:08.720 a mental defense. She, on the other hand, did not 362 00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:15.160 want to be politicized. I think while it was occurring 363 00:24:16.039 --> 00:24:19.519 she responded well. After the trial, I don't think she 364 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:22.720 ever responded well again to the media and to the attention. 365 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:29.079 She always insisted that God had talked to her and 366 00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:33.279 directed her and opened the door to allow her in 367 00:24:33.559 --> 00:24:43.559 during a recess, and had in essence interceded and compelled 368 00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:48.960 her to do the act. And what she wanted to 369 00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:55.240 do is emphasize that aspect. So one of my fortees 370 00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:03.799 has been defense that involved psychiatry. So obviously you have 371 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:09.240 not guilty by reason of insanity. 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