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Speaker 1: We embark on a new journey today. How are you doing, Thomas,

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I'm very well. Thanks for hosting me. This one is

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going to be This one's interesting to me because I

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was alive for part of this, and I was sentient.

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I mean, I remember a lot of this. So we

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had teased about talking about the Cold War, but you

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said that you had a We're going to start at

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the end and then go back to the beginning. So

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what do you got?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a few things here. I want to explain

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my rationale before we deep dive into it. You know,

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I don't want to presume the viewers and the listeners

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have knowledge that they don't. I mean, I'm not saying

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that anybody's not smart or anything, but some of this

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stuff has become someone is terror just because the way

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the news cycle doesn't properly provide context to historical events,

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particularly where there's military variables involved, and you know, political

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narratives be can paramount to characterize these things. But also

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it's as hard to place one self conceptually in an

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epoch that has totally passed. You know, I went through that.

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When when when people like my parents need to talk

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about the fifties and the sixties and things. You know,

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I mean, all all people go through that. But you

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know the reason why I indicated, you know, I want

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to I'm treating this as kind of the end was

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the beginning. Everything that is happening today in political terms

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and in foreign policy terms, in terms of the in

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terms of the guiding ideology of Washington. And I say

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ideology not ideology, is plural because I really do believe

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that there's a true consensus there. There there's no opposition

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party in Washington at all. I mean, arguably since nineteen

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thirty three there hasn't been real opposition, but in discrete

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policy terms, there was. Now that that no longer exists.

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There's an absolute quorum. There's one ideology. There's one strategic vision.

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There's one there's there's one sense of when intervention and

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force is is is legitimate, and that that is totally

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ideologically driven. It's not it's not driven by rategic variables

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of a realistic, even particularly concrete in nature. You know,

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it's very much based on a very abstract things and

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ideological things. But the only way to understand why that

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is the case, and the only way to understand why

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Ukraine is the designated battleground. And the only way to

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understand why Russia, the Russian Federation as it exists today,

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has been slated for annihilation UH is to understand how

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the Cold War resolved and why it resolved the way

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it did. So to begin, I'm going to go back

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to the last sort of conflict cycle of the Cold

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War very briefly, to speak on Dayton. Dayton was born

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in two things. For those that don't know Dayton was

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it was a It was an It was an explicit

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and series of implicit agreements between the United States and

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so Union warsaw pack to not engage in direct strategic competition.

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Part of this over the act that UH America was

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losing the Cold War militarily, not just in Vietnam, but

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on secondary battlefronts like Angola. The the Indo Pakistan War

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was very much an attempt to UH, owing to the UH,

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to the then NACI sent of Soviets split that the

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Soviet turnist and hedging China with with India, you know,

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being a huge populous country. Pakistan was kind of the

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American response to that, you know, creating trying to cultivate

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Pakistan as a proxy. But these things are not going well,

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and obviously direct intervention. There's this weird period between the

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end of the military draft and you know, the the

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the kind of full development of the all volunteer force

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and the full development implementations becoming known of the revolution

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and military affairs, you know, the entailerything from command to

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control technology to global positioning intelogy you know, to uh too,

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smart munitions becoming the norm rather than the exception. Okay,

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there's a strange kind of period between those two things

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where the US Army was operating on a shoe string budget.

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I mean the whole not just the army, the whole military.

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There was no political will in Washington for the overseas

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communism in the Third World in Europe to become very stagnant.

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But in the Third World it had this great animating power,

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and there were the Soviets were blessed with a great

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deal of proxies who were already in being, you know,

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uh in cadri with a full cadre structure, and you know,

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men under arms that could facilitate military outcomes that very

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much benefited the Soviets. All they really needed was a

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constant to play of weapons, and the Soviets could kind

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of take a hands off approach. So from about nineteen

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seventy three onward, you know, this this kind of this

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kind of strategic paradigm ragned. However, during that period, the

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technology that that underpins strategic nuclear weapons dramatically improved, you know,

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owing to the over to the early revolution in computing technology,

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to going to increase improved circular error probable from you know,

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things like the space program, you know, and just owing

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the owing the real satellite technology. We'll get into that

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a minute. What I mean, you know what it we

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take for granted that satellite imaging, you know, gives you

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a real time picture of the battle space, but that

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was not the case until the late nineteen seventies, probably

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until nineteen eighty. Okay, so uh, this endured until nineteen

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seventy nine. In nineteen seventy nine, the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. Uh,

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and that really alarmed people because, for reasons we ate

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into in a moment beyond the obvious, it was misunderstood

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why that happened. I know, mister Trump said it was

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to fight Islamic terrorism. That doesn't make any sense. Other

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people claim that, well, it was the president doctrine you

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know that being that the Soviet Union declared that it

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would intervene on behalf of the socialist community of nation

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is to preserve socialism. Okay, that was the rationale, the pretext.

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What it really was was that outside of Moscow, the

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primary command and control hub for Soviet strategic nuclear forces

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was in Kazakhstan or was it, Yeah, it was in Kazakhstan, Okay,

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And that's why not accidentally that for Star City is

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you know where the Soviet Union and later of the

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Russian Federalation you'll, launched their space vehicles from. So if

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Afghanistan could be flipped or could have been flipped and

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transformed into a Western client state with basing rights there, uh,

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the Soviets have been looking at a situation where there

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there's strategic nuclear command and control would be decavitated, you know,

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at least a substantial portion of it, and that was

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not acceptable now and drop of even the bredgion that

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was at the hell Andy drop off was really kind

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of the that the shadow executive of the Soviet Union.

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You know, the Soviet political structure was very not just

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because the party in the state were were interstitially combined

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with one another, but because who was the true executive,

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you know, varied, you know, generally it was a man

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will a communitions have all offices, you know, like the UH.

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He'd often would be a man who held both the

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premiership and the General Secretary of the Communist Party. Other

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times it was it was it was far more UH

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Opigue and UH and drop off reigned formally as UH

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as as as you know, the the General Secretary from

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eighty two to eighty four, but I'd argue that probably

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fromout nineteen sixty nine he was a true shadow executive

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of the Soviet Union, and he was a very brilliant guy.

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And the world as its structured today and the fate

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of the Soviet Union and decisions made therein for better

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and ill o very much dimster and drop of, But

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it was his decision doing vade Afghanistan, and he was

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looking many steps ahead in terms of, you know, the

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implications for the strategic nuclear balance and UH, the ability

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of the Soviet Union to survive the Ball from the

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Blue nuclear assault, which was a real concern for reasons

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we'll get into. And it's some it's difficult to emphasize

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how dangerous it was. They have two superpowers fully mobilized

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with massive nuclear arsenals on hair trigger alert at all

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time when the technological curve was really moving towards removing

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human decision makers from the equation. You know, the only

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to with the narrowing temporal window of decision making in

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the event of nuclear war, this is really becoming out

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of it was really kind of becoming removed from human hands.

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You know, technology is it's own momentum and societies at

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scale where you're talking about literally hundreds of millions of

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people and you know, thousands on thousands on thousands of

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aggregate decisions, you know, can vote control or trajectory of

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that massive state. You know, these these things can't just

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easily be moved one or the other and the perial

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breaks cancas be put on an apparatus of that scope,

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scale and complexity, you know, Like I mean, this is

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this is fundamental to understanding the do you.

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Speaker 1: Think they go ahead, let me ask, do you think

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that they did that because of you know, Daniel Olisburg

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put out the Doomsday Machine, which really shined a light

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on what he saw in the nuclear policy. What was

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the way in the late fifties, early sixties, how the

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how nukes were being overseen. Do you think that that

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because of the way that could have turned into a disaster,

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they possibly thought that, well, if we turned this over

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into more of a even starting to talk about AI

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and things like that, it would be better than having

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humans handle.

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Speaker 2: This definitely, and the progenitor, like the proverbial father of AI,

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is new strategic nuclear war planning. The idea was this, okay,

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and I'm jumping a little bit ahead because he asked,

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I want to kind of deal with this now. By

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the nineteen eighties, you know where true parody existed when

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the superpowers in terms of strategic nuclear forces and being

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as well as capabilities, a bolt on the blue strike

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if launched by hypersonic cruise missiles from Europe against the

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Soviet Union, they would have as little as five minutes

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to render a decision on retaliation. The United States would

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have longer, but we're talking about eight to fifteen minutes

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in the case of the United States. I'm not gonna

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bore people with the details. Ifought that would have played out,

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it would have involved things like an SLBM assault launched

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at the depressed trajectory, the spoof early warning systems detonating

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a groundburst detonation. Thus an e MP would knock out

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remaining early warning. But the point is, like, imagine the

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situation where, okay, you know, if IF IF IF policy

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is to you know, even the policy it's to launch

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on warning, not launch on confirmation of assault. It's like, okay,

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it's two in the morning, you know, American time, or

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in Moscow. You wake up the way of the United States,

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or you wake up the General Secretary. You know, you say,

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mister President, you know, we we just received what confirmation

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like incoming assault. He's got eight minutes to decide, like

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how he's gonna retaliate, if he's gonna retaliate, what their

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retali he's gonna entail. What force is gonna be availed

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to it, whether it's gonna be countervol counterforcement, not counter value,

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whether it's gonna be you know, full spectrum attack. That

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it's we're at the point where this too totally academics,

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that's not possible. Okay. So the idea was you've got

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to be able to discern absolute indicators before you know,

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not not just before launch detection, but before even was

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considered early morning detection. If you could code those indicators

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into variables that could be rendered as inputs. Then your

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AI could tell you when you're facing imminent assault. But

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the problem with that is, like when do you decide,

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when do you decide to launch? Is that when there's

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an over a fifty percent probability of him in an attack,

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When when it's eighty percent, when it's anything over ten percent,

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you know, when it's five percent. You know, these deeper

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parodies make this incredibly difficult. But regardless, there was a

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secondary issue too. And I'm gonna get into this now

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because this is a perfect kind of way to kind

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of slide into it. As Dayton ended Carter, who gets

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a batter wrap and that don't get me wrong, Carter

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was not a good president, but he was not a

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terrible man. He was actually a very moral man and

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he did some good things. One of the good things

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he did was in nineteen seventy nine Carter Carter tacked

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William Odum. It was a general, very brilliant guy. Odum

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was rare because he kind of had the logistical brilliance

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of Omar Bradley, but he was also a real warrior,

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you know, he was like a soldier's general. He understood combat.

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He really understood nuclear weapons. Okay, I think it's kind

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of a counterpart in the total counterpart would be somebody

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like Blackjack Pershing. But William Odom went through the presidential

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decision making a handbook and literally something that existed for

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nuclear war, and it was incredibly opig It was incredibly obtuse,

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It was not up to speed in terms of the

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technology of the day, and it didn't give the president

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any real ability to to It didn't give any liberty

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of action respective war plan. Now part of that is

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because it was a drafted in literally ninety sixty five,

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So basically what it entailed it and in the core

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of this of this presidential handbook was the was the PSYOP,

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not the psychological operation, the SIOP, the single Integrated Operational Plan,

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because this day there's an SIOP, but it is totally

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different and it's changed many times. But as of nineteen

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seventy nine, it was this arcane document that was no

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longer relevant, and it basically gave the president a handful

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of menu options. It was literally listed as response menu.

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It was counter value and counter force assault against the

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00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:53,639
Soviet Union. All warsaw pack states were strategic nuclear forces

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00:14:53,679 --> 00:14:56,840
are based and the same for the People's Republic in China.

241
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There's another menu option that was the same thing for

242
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China and the USSR and war's unpacked. There's another menu

243
00:15:02,399 --> 00:15:05,360
option that was the reverse. There's another one that was

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00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:10,039
just strictly counterfeit, strictly counterforce, no counter value. A lot

245
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of this came from the fact they were talking about

246
00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,600
a moment ago about satellites. Okay, until about nineteen eighty

247
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or like nineteen seventy nineteen eighty, US satellites that would

248
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that would provide data on the basing location of enemy forces.

249
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There were always several weeks out of date because these

250
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:35,960
satellite to take their pictures, the little film would be

251
00:15:36,039 --> 00:15:39,519
deposited a canister that cancer would fall to earth and

252
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be recovered from the ocean. It would be retrieved, developed

253
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and analyzed. So somebody were talking about months out of

254
00:15:46,519 --> 00:15:49,759
date information. And one of the things that Soviets did,

255
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,960
which was kind of cunning in its simplicity, rather than

256
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,879
a veiling their land based ICBMs and to the super

257
00:15:57,919 --> 00:16:02,360
hardened structures, they put them on trucks and mobile launch vehicles.

258
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Like everybody's seeing the footage, I mean, at least if

259
00:16:04,279 --> 00:16:06,679
you're a kid like when I was, you know, there'd

260
00:16:06,679 --> 00:16:10,240
be these ominous as hell. Uh uh, they'd be this

261
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,600
ominous A little footage from the Moscow military parades, these

262
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:18,080
SS nineteen, these huge ICBMs on these trucks, you know

263
00:16:18,159 --> 00:16:21,720
literally okay, they were they moving them around every single day,

264
00:16:22,399 --> 00:16:27,120
you know. Uh. And that the spoof uh, the spoof

265
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:31,159
enemy targeting. And there's like the totally crazy stuff like

266
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,360
by the by the mid eighties NSA satellites and d

267
00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,360
I satellites, they were photographing the soil and the Soviet

268
00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,679
Union and East Germany. Uh to detect tracks from these

269
00:16:40,759 --> 00:16:42,679
vehicles because based on their depth, you could tell if

270
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:44,879
the payload with some you know, with something of the

271
00:16:44,879 --> 00:16:47,759
wave in SS nineteen or not. Like it's totally insane,

272
00:16:48,039 --> 00:16:50,240
like not insane as and stupid or bad like, but

273
00:16:50,399 --> 00:16:53,279
like totally insane, like the amount of work and and

274
00:16:53,399 --> 00:16:55,679
like man hours that went into this, you know, uh,

275
00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:00,120
people can't even can see with somebody today. But so

276
00:17:00,159 --> 00:17:03,279
what Carter and Odom decided was there was another thing

277
00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,359
too that was disturbing what the SIOP and the entire

278
00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:12,440
the entire response plan. It was that by the time,

279
00:17:12,519 --> 00:17:15,240
by the state of technology of nineteen seventy nine, it

280
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,480
was just accepted that in the event of a bolt

281
00:17:18,519 --> 00:17:23,680
from the Blue assault or an unforeseen escalation of conventional

282
00:17:23,799 --> 00:17:27,519
war wherein you know, the enemy, the enemy just you know,

283
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:31,039
goes on in you know, escalates the counter value nuclear assault,

284
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,039
it was just accepted that the president would be dead

285
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,519
and all civilian decision makers would be dead. So the

286
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,759
only people who would be able to manage the response

287
00:17:42,039 --> 00:17:44,880
would be strategic air Command based as they were in

288
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,880
a super hard in places like Sheyan Mountain as well

289
00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,640
as in the looking Glass aircraft that was the airborne

290
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:56,440
command post. That's really disturbing. It's also damn when constitutional

291
00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:58,880
you can't craft a war plan and be with an

292
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,559
article be parameters. That's says, well, the president's gonna die,

293
00:18:01,839 --> 00:18:04,920
so you know general powers or general to may or

294
00:18:05,039 --> 00:18:07,319
general so and so he's not that de facto president,

295
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,200
you know, he's he's he's lord high executioner, and that

296
00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,599
he's totally in control of the strategic nuclear forces. But

297
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,240
also he's just like the reigning like government official who's

298
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,079
going to survive, so it all comes down to him.

299
00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,039
That's a very dangerous situation. Among other things, and also

300
00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:25,519
like I said, patently, and Gon's a divisional. Carter said,

301
00:18:25,559 --> 00:18:29,240
that's not acceptable. So what Carter did was he ordered

302
00:18:29,279 --> 00:18:37,000
Owe him to draft a a comprehensive response plan. Basically,

303
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,519
bring the SIOP up to speed, account for deeper parodies,

304
00:18:40,759 --> 00:18:43,319
account for up to the moment intelligence that could be

305
00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:47,799
gleaned from you know, the then contemporary satellite systems that

306
00:18:47,839 --> 00:18:52,519
would allow for h you know, instantaneous retargeting as needed

307
00:18:52,559 --> 00:18:56,920
and things like this. Carter demanded that there be that

308
00:18:57,039 --> 00:19:00,960
part of this plan include designated civilian national command authorities.

309
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,279
You know, basically the president and his cabinet would all

310
00:19:04,319 --> 00:19:07,240
be issued these ID cards that all had a code, okay,

311
00:19:07,279 --> 00:19:10,559
and the code would constantly change. But these men and

312
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,039
a handful of women are in the cabinet, the executive cabinet,

313
00:19:13,559 --> 00:19:15,319
they have to every day, they'd have to report on

314
00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,200
their whereabouts and if they left the ad Distion of Columbia,

315
00:19:18,279 --> 00:19:20,400
they have to report like every hour as to where

316
00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,640
they were. So they and there was a series of

317
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,880
military bases and hardness structures that they would be designated

318
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,000
to travel to wherever they were an event of war.

319
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,039
So basically, long story short, a system was put into place.

320
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,880
This was not completed until about ninety eighty forty five,

321
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,720
but the system was in place where in there was

322
00:19:38,799 --> 00:19:43,000
no way that every civilian mansional command authority would be killed. Okay,

323
00:19:43,319 --> 00:19:45,799
there would always be someone who could manage the war

324
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,359
on behalf of the executive and the civilian leadership. Okay,

325
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,440
there's other things too, But what this basically what this

326
00:19:53,519 --> 00:19:57,559
all came down, you're taken together. This meant that, owing

327
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,680
to the technology of the time and then the evolving

328
00:20:00,759 --> 00:20:05,640
state of warfare, command and control, uh, smart munitions, everything else,

329
00:20:07,279 --> 00:20:11,640
it became America was planning to in event of nuclear war,

330
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:17,240
to fight and win a nuclear war. This caused I'll

331
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,440
get the consternation from people who didn't really understand deeper parodies,

332
00:20:20,559 --> 00:20:23,480
even some people who should have. You know, people had

333
00:20:23,519 --> 00:20:27,400
this ongoing kind of delusion that d MAD was one

334
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,920
part kind of talking point, one part kind of in

335
00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,920
joke of within the nuclear fraternity in the earliest days.

336
00:20:34,799 --> 00:20:38,200
Mutually assured destruction is not literally mean the end of everything.

337
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,039
Assured destruction is a victory metric and strategic nuclear warfare.

338
00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,799
It's the point at which an enemy society can no

339
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,640
longer reconstitute the wage war it's basically the point the

340
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,559
attrition point at which you kill an enemy society, which

341
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,559
is a horrific metric because in the case of the

342
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,599
Soviet Union or America as a nineteen seventy is that

343
00:20:55,839 --> 00:20:59,720
entailed about seventy or eighty million people. Okay, But this

344
00:20:59,839 --> 00:21:02,599
idea that the only reason nuclear weapons exists is to

345
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,359
make sure they're never used like that, that's an absurdity.

346
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,920
And it's also it just wasn't by the nineteen seventies.

347
00:21:09,079 --> 00:21:15,480
The nineteen seventies, you had you had multiple independently targeted

348
00:21:15,519 --> 00:21:18,240
re entry vehicles, you had decoys, you have ways to

349
00:21:18,279 --> 00:21:22,039
spoof early warning radar, you had hypersonic missile platforms that

350
00:21:22,799 --> 00:21:25,839
that uh that that that wouldn't you know that that

351
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,039
didn't that didn't even travel on ballistic trajectory. Like it

352
00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:35,680
was totally obsolescent. And uh, as William Otem said, he said,

353
00:21:35,759 --> 00:21:37,720
look uh he said at the time, and he read it,

354
00:21:37,839 --> 00:21:40,599
he read it. Reiterated later to one of his biographers,

355
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,559
He's like, I had an obligation that if America was

356
00:21:45,559 --> 00:21:48,599
attaged with nuclear weapons, I had an obligation, you know,

357
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,680
in contro with the president, to fight and win a

358
00:21:52,759 --> 00:21:57,559
nuclear war. And he's absolutely right with the other kind

359
00:21:57,599 --> 00:22:00,240
of perverse feature of mad and that kind of whole

360
00:22:00,279 --> 00:22:03,720
ethos it's like I'm obligated to commit suicide and so

361
00:22:03,799 --> 00:22:06,200
it was like, you know, eighty million other people because oh,

362
00:22:06,279 --> 00:22:08,720
we failed in our effort to maintain peace to the

363
00:22:08,759 --> 00:22:11,119
balance of terror. Like it's there's something crazy about it,

364
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,720
but that's uh, that's basically what ushered in the final

365
00:22:15,839 --> 00:22:22,880
phase of the Cold War. Now I want to fast

366
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:28,279
forward a bit to, uh, what exactly happened when, uh,

367
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,519
it became clear that not just cracks in the edifice

368
00:22:31,559 --> 00:22:36,160
of the Soviet Empire emerging, but that there was a

369
00:22:36,279 --> 00:22:43,119
genuine structural crisis underway. And part of our this developed, oh,

370
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:47,319
is the personalities quite literally of George Herbert Walker Bush

371
00:22:48,319 --> 00:22:52,240
and Mikhail Gorbachew. Now, mister Bush, I've got to drop

372
00:22:52,319 --> 00:22:55,480
some biographical biographical background on Bush if it was to

373
00:22:55,559 --> 00:22:58,920
make any sense. I'm not trying to bore anybody. Bush

374
00:22:59,039 --> 00:23:03,079
was a very dynamic guy, frankly, and he's not a

375
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,799
well loved individual, and that's fine. I'm not saying people

376
00:23:05,799 --> 00:23:07,880
should like Bush it and like morally or think that,

377
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,640
you know, he was like a good man or something,

378
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:14,240
but he had an incredibly in depth understanding of the

379
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:18,240
nuances of the strategic balance under the Cold War. But

380
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,079
he was head of the CIA in nineteen seventy four

381
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:34,799
when something very controversial happened see the US. As I

382
00:23:34,839 --> 00:23:36,480
made the point before and the Rady in context, the

383
00:23:36,559 --> 00:23:41,680
CIA really lost its cachet in the sixties and subsequently

384
00:23:41,799 --> 00:23:44,000
with the Gates hearings. And it wasn't just that people

385
00:23:44,039 --> 00:23:47,160
were morally outraged by things like the Phoenix program, which

386
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,039
they put squarely on the shoulders of CIA. And when

387
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,680
really kind of responsibility if you want to look at

388
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,240
that way, if you do this as a great evil

389
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,839
kind of arrested equally with Army intelligence and mcavee, SAG

390
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,079
the Pentagon itself. But you know, one of the reasons

391
00:24:01,079 --> 00:24:03,319
this is misplaced and people that like CIA is kind

392
00:24:03,319 --> 00:24:06,480
of the the seat of of of deep state power,

393
00:24:06,599 --> 00:24:12,119
it's really not. And it was really really low by

394
00:24:12,599 --> 00:24:17,160
a lot of very hawkish Cold warriors. So something happened

395
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:21,839
in nineteen seventy four. There's something of this day that

396
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:27,079
is that is corralled by UH the intelligence services called

397
00:24:27,079 --> 00:24:30,480
the National Intelligence Estimate. It's it's become kind of meaningless

398
00:24:30,599 --> 00:24:34,039
now because intelligence and the whole all intelligence game is

399
00:24:34,079 --> 00:24:37,519
totally different today. And we could do an episode on

400
00:24:37,599 --> 00:24:39,920
that if if anybody's interested, but I'm not gonna deep

401
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,119
dive into that because that's just too much kind of

402
00:24:42,519 --> 00:24:47,599
collateral stuff. But the UH, it was the belief of

403
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:52,400
UH everybody from you know, kind of hawkish senators and congressmen,

404
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,279
you know, to Pentagon types, two guys in army intelligence,

405
00:24:56,839 --> 00:25:00,920
you know, to UH, to UH, to round Reagan himself,

406
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,599
who you know, as early as as as the mid seventies,

407
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,920
you know, had his eyes on a White House bid.

408
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,759
You know, the believes that the CIA was not feeding

409
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,240
they were not feeding good data to UH, to those

410
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,759
to whom they were accountable, civilian or military. The claim

411
00:25:17,839 --> 00:25:21,759
was that they were consistently underestimating Soviet capabilities as well

412
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,559
as just kind of internal dynamics from that so within

413
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,000
the Soviet Union, relating to the leadership cast, as well

414
00:25:28,039 --> 00:25:32,160
as relating to probable decisions that the Soviets would make

415
00:25:32,279 --> 00:25:35,759
and when confronted with with with with crises, with crises

416
00:25:36,039 --> 00:25:40,079
both of man and without their sphere of influence. So

417
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,400
it was proposed that what was called Team B be

418
00:25:43,519 --> 00:25:48,960
corralled as a competitive analysis exercise. Now, what was the

419
00:25:49,079 --> 00:25:53,240
mandate of quote unque Team b Uh? There it was

420
00:25:53,279 --> 00:25:56,960
commissioned to aggregate and analyze data from diverse sources basically

421
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,359
any available intelligence sources that were then relied upon, Okay,

422
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,440
to judge the accuracy, comprehensive nance the predictive value of

423
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:13,119
the national intelligence estimate of the preceding several years. Okay, Now,

424
00:26:15,079 --> 00:26:18,680
the folks at Team be it was sixteen experts total,

425
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,279
and I'll get into who those men were in just

426
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:25,799
a minute. They were divided into three teams, okay, or yeah,

427
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:31,480
teams or classes if you will. One of them was

428
00:26:31,519 --> 00:26:36,599
to study specifically low altitude Soviet air defense capabilities, which

429
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,079
again I don't want to bore anybody, but this relates

430
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:47,279
to things uh you know, UH stealth technology didn't exist yet,

431
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,359
but it was understood that this was in the wings

432
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,119
and even were it not, platforms like the like what

433
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,440
became the B one bomber. H. You know. The idea

434
00:26:56,519 --> 00:27:00,559
was that you can fly below conventional radar strikes super

435
00:27:00,599 --> 00:27:06,480
harden targets with uh with very very heavy uh nuclear weapons.

436
00:27:06,759 --> 00:27:10,000
Uh you know, this most effective way to knock knock

437
00:27:10,079 --> 00:27:14,720
out uh these counterforce targets. So even even though it

438
00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:17,920
seems like overly specific and esoteric, I mean, that's that's

439
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,640
why this was such and such a priority. Okay, the

440
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,440
study of low effect that those and capabilities of low

441
00:27:23,519 --> 00:27:27,000
altitudes pesically low altitude Soviet there def it's capabilities in

442
00:27:27,079 --> 00:27:31,799
places like Moscow, in places like Kazakhstan. Okay. Another team

443
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,920
was a study the accuracy of land based Soviet and

444
00:27:35,039 --> 00:27:40,079
more so packed ICBMs. Okay, the circular error probable. Traditionally,

445
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:45,079
the Soviets larded their their launch vehicles and warheads that

446
00:27:45,279 --> 00:27:49,960
had absolutely massive throw weight. So even if they lost

447
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,440
a substantial amount of them, you know, it's ah to

448
00:27:53,559 --> 00:27:57,839
ABM technology. Those that hit would would would be absolutely devastating.

449
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,279
That's kind of how they resolve the you know the issue.

450
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,440
I mean America at every different Amora's ethos kind of

451
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,880
the opposite. Remember's idea was eventually, you know, to create

452
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,319
basically smart munitions uh on strategic play in in in

453
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,640
the strategic arsenal and pepper the target area with with

454
00:28:14,799 --> 00:28:18,799
sub megaton warheads, which which is far far more devastating

455
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:24,680
than one massive uh UH device. For reasons I don't

456
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,920
fully understand. I'm sure physics guys could like shift some

457
00:28:27,079 --> 00:28:31,279
light on. And finally, and most importantly, the third, you

458
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,880
know team, within Team B, there were always to study

459
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:42,279
Soviets strategic priorities and how this interface with policy orientation. Basically,

460
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,920
what's the Soviets the Soviet what's the Soviet doctrin on

461
00:28:46,039 --> 00:28:50,000
nuclear war? Like when would they truly escalate? And beyond

462
00:28:50,079 --> 00:28:53,920
that in more and more kind of global figuratively little

463
00:28:54,039 --> 00:28:56,920
terms like what is their grand strategy? Like how does

464
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,359
the Soviet Union aim to increase its power in this

465
00:29:00,519 --> 00:29:06,000
kind of uncertain epoch that we're entering now. Who was

466
00:29:06,079 --> 00:29:07,640
on this team and you're gona understand, You're going to

467
00:29:07,759 --> 00:29:11,160
understand why I made a big deal about Bush and

468
00:29:11,319 --> 00:29:15,960
Uh and Uh like Bush the man in personality, This

469
00:29:16,079 --> 00:29:20,400
team was headed by Richard Pipes Uh. It included Uh,

470
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:26,079
Daniel Graham, William Van Cleeve, uh foy D Kohler, Seymour Weiss,

471
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,359
Paul Wolfowitz, and Paul Knits, who'd been the creator of

472
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,119
the Committee and the Present Danger in nineteen fifty, which

473
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,920
over over time at various iterations, all of which basically

474
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,240
it's it's it's not really relevant now, but that was

475
00:29:41,279 --> 00:29:44,160
always kind of the uh that that was always that

476
00:29:44,279 --> 00:29:46,279
was that was GONDA, the that was the Plitable Action

477
00:29:46,359 --> 00:29:49,000
Committee of Cold War hawks. Okay. Now, if you notice

478
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,200
from that list that has ticked off these like the

479
00:29:51,279 --> 00:29:55,039
Fathers and neo Conservatism, not philosophically but in policy terms,

480
00:29:55,119 --> 00:29:57,799
that is not an accident, okay. And these guys basically

481
00:29:57,839 --> 00:30:00,920
were saying, well, Busch's CIA is totally competence and they

482
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:08,240
do not know what they're doing. Okay. And uh. Thus,

483
00:30:09,119 --> 00:30:14,920
when Bush was brought on board as Reagan's VP, Reagan

484
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,000
was surrounded with neo conservatives as advisors. And I would

485
00:30:18,039 --> 00:30:21,720
go as far as to argue people like Oliver North,

486
00:30:21,759 --> 00:30:27,319
people like Poindexter, people like l. Hag who didn't last

487
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,200
long in Middle these guys were ultra hawkish, but they

488
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,599
were not Innoka. And so however, Neocon's very much had

489
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,680
Reagan's ear, and Reagan himself is something of a Neocon. Okay,

490
00:30:37,839 --> 00:30:39,880
he was in He was a Roosevelt new dealer who

491
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:41,880
you know, had a kind of Sall and the Road

492
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:47,160
in Damascus moment in the UH in the post war years. Okay, Uh,

493
00:30:47,519 --> 00:30:50,799
I mean that's a whole another issue. But so Bush

494
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,599
was basically the company man who who was Reagan's press

495
00:30:54,599 --> 00:30:57,160
admission of the White House, and Bush and Reagan did

496
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:02,680
not like each other. And when Bush found himself elected president,

497
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:09,559
he was surrounded by men, uh who had gone on

498
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:14,119
to very story and powerful roles in a policy planning

499
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:18,519
corners and the national security apparatus, who were very, very

500
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,839
hostile to his worldview and who did not view him

501
00:31:21,839 --> 00:31:27,400
as particularly competent. Okay, Bush tried to insulate himself with

502
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,599
with with his own loyalists, and I think he did

503
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,759
that in large measure. You know, people like Baker, people

504
00:31:32,799 --> 00:31:36,440
like Scowcroft. He's kind of a complicated figure in terms

505
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,480
of his values. He had Neo Connage tendencies. But first

506
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:47,599
and foremance he was loyal to Bush. And uh when

507
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:54,079
Bush took office, you know, uh February nineteen eighty nine. Again,

508
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,720
not only was this kind of TV faction that would

509
00:31:56,839 --> 00:31:59,200
much later he become kind of known to the public

510
00:31:59,279 --> 00:32:03,880
as you know, the Neocon Cabal, some aspect of it

511
00:32:04,079 --> 00:32:07,119
at least. Uh. Not only were they insinuated very much

512
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,079
into the into the national security apparatus, but you know,

513
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,720
certain expectations have been raised by Reagan. You know, Reagan

514
00:32:15,799 --> 00:32:22,759
and Gorbachev. Uh had this tremendous report and that was legit,

515
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:27,000
That was that was real. That wasn't. Bush found the

516
00:32:27,079 --> 00:32:31,960
speed of things very alarming. A few months before Bush

517
00:32:32,079 --> 00:32:37,880
took uh before inauguration day, Bush actually tad Henry Kissinger,

518
00:32:39,359 --> 00:32:44,640
and he asked him to contact Gorbachev's and intermediary. Kissinger

519
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:50,960
secretly traveled to Moscow and he met with Gorbachev and

520
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,839
Kissinger explained as ordered that there would not be a

521
00:32:54,839 --> 00:33:01,000
steamless transition of administrations from Reagan to Bush. And Groza

522
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:02,759
was kind of put out by this as well as

523
00:33:02,799 --> 00:33:07,799
taken aback, you know, and Garbachhaw said, well, why what

524
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:13,480
Kisnder articulated was exactly what Bush instructed him to. He said, Look,

525
00:33:13,519 --> 00:33:16,720
there's a danger here of a structural and political nature.

526
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,960
You know, a reckless US president could totally derail the

527
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,039
transition away from communism. You know, there could be a

528
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,640
coup of hardliners, which there was, and we'll get into that,

529
00:33:26,839 --> 00:33:30,359
but that was not until what it appeared. Uh, there

530
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,839
could be uh there gonna be open civil war between

531
00:33:32,839 --> 00:33:36,319
the nationalities, and that did happen in some theaters. Uh,

532
00:33:37,559 --> 00:33:41,200
there could be a complete Weimar style collapse, which also

533
00:33:41,279 --> 00:33:46,160
did happen to some degree. What Kissinger relayed in essence

534
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,039
was Bush had told him, you know, an American president

535
00:33:49,079 --> 00:33:51,519
could be much to derail the transition away from communam,

536
00:33:51,599 --> 00:33:55,279
but could do little to grease the skids, UH to

537
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,200
the facility of the projects more rapidly. Now to understand

538
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,559
what Bush's vision was, it was a lot like Nixon's.

539
00:34:01,799 --> 00:34:05,319
After Nixon left office, Now, as you probably remember about

540
00:34:05,319 --> 00:34:08,679
my age, he Nixon kind of got a second lease

541
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:13,320
on life by the mid late mid to late nineteen eighties.

542
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,599
He wrote some very good books on the strategic situation.

543
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,599
He wrote a lot about the Cold War, which frankly

544
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,639
was Nixon's like raison detrop and you know, and even

545
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,239
he was even tapped by CNN during the Gulf War

546
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,639
like not infrequently show it before he died. But Nixon

547
00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:34,960
and Bush, their idea was this. Their idea was that

548
00:34:35,599 --> 00:34:37,960
we can preserve the Soviet Union as some kind of

549
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,239
benign structure, at least for the time being. You know,

550
00:34:42,079 --> 00:34:44,840
what what has to be paramount is total nuclear disarmament

551
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:52,519
and UH and then gradual demobilization of conventional forces until

552
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,199
such that they're drawn down to basically nothing more than

553
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,199
the kind of Weimar style, you know, constabulary force to

554
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,119
manage internal life or ethnic conflict or things like this.

555
00:35:03,639 --> 00:35:05,880
In Bush's case, it was very much a kind of

556
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,360
it was very much kind of the vision of Roosevelt

557
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:10,920
that you know, the United States and the Soviet Union

558
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,760
would kind of govern the planet literally with you know,

559
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,079
Moscow as a junior partner, but that you know, this

560
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,159
massively federated structure that took up literally one sixth of

561
00:35:20,159 --> 00:35:23,119
the earth should remain intact because the alternative is just

562
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:30,679
too unpredictable and uh, it seems unrealistic to us, I

563
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,159
mean regard regardless of the merit of such things on

564
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,159
their own terms or such concepts with how you've token

565
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,800
the art. There's a singular fixation among policy planners after

566
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:46,280
Nuremberg of at all costs is preventing armed conflict. And

567
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,679
if you look at government as some kind of progressive

568
00:35:48,679 --> 00:35:52,320
instrumentality in in live looking as as either a necessary

569
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,440
evil or as a means by which you know, the

570
00:35:55,559 --> 00:35:59,840
posterity and historical mission of a people is preserved, you

571
00:36:00,039 --> 00:36:06,760
kind of view this as the zenith of government. So

572
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:08,639
the Bush Faction, if you want to call it, that

573
00:36:10,519 --> 00:36:14,920
contra the neo kon or pronoun faction. This was their vision. Okay.

574
00:36:16,119 --> 00:36:19,639
In contrast, the guys who had staff Team B and

575
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,960
who would now become these gott uber hawks in sinuated

576
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,840
into various roles. They viewed the Soviet Union as quite

577
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,920
literally evil. They like, that was not i probole, That's

578
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:31,800
the way they looked at it. Some of this was

579
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,159
some of this was ethno sectarium going to the background

580
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,079
of a lot of these men. Some of it was

581
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:39,559
was not. It was just you know, guys who are

582
00:36:39,599 --> 00:36:42,480
not of that particular background, but who who just viewed

583
00:36:42,519 --> 00:36:46,519
it as evil incarnate. So their idea was it had

584
00:36:46,559 --> 00:36:49,119
to be destroyed. Now, you know, if we destroy the

585
00:36:49,159 --> 00:36:52,559
Soviet Union by open warfare, so be it. If that's

586
00:36:52,599 --> 00:36:56,320
what you know, God or or or a fortuna or

587
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:00,239
whatever ordains. Or if we destroy it, you know, by

588
00:37:00,639 --> 00:37:03,880
by dismantling it through you know, a detonation strategy of

589
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,639
you know, stirring up the nationalities against against against Mother

590
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:10,119
Russia and against each other. You know, uh, if if

591
00:37:10,159 --> 00:37:12,480
we if we destroy it by you know, imposing a

592
00:37:12,559 --> 00:37:15,360
kind of looting operation on it that that strips of

593
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,760
its natural wealth, strips it of its natural resources and

594
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:23,320
national wealth and control of such commodities they're in. You know,

595
00:37:23,599 --> 00:37:26,800
we can just run your act prostrate and impotent. That

596
00:37:27,199 --> 00:37:29,519
was the competing viewpoint. And this is not iperbole. These

597
00:37:29,559 --> 00:37:33,880
these people spoke very openly. This Dick Cheney uh went

598
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,960
on a record as saying quite literally quote fuck them.

599
00:37:37,199 --> 00:37:40,079
They lost when confronted with, you know, the kind of

600
00:37:40,119 --> 00:37:44,480
Bush Baker vision which seems incredibly reckless from metals to

601
00:37:44,519 --> 00:37:50,800
your politics. But this, uh, this said the uh, this

602
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,360
is the effect of really kind of really kind of

603
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:58,199
driving a wedge between Bush and GORBACHEWF. And this this was, uh,

604
00:37:58,559 --> 00:38:03,760
this is exacerbated because one of uh when when one

605
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:11,440
of Bush's first acts as president, he visited Poland. You know,

606
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,559
in Poland was kind of ground zero of anti Soviet

607
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,360
not just the anti Soviet sentiment, but of organized resistance,

608
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,360
you know, like Valenca and the solidarity movement. Bush did

609
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:23,920
not like Valenza. It's I think part of that was

610
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,280
kind of inherent snobbery because Valentza was very much a proletarian.

611
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:32,000
I think bushvidiam is a rail rouser. What Bush did

612
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,679
was he met with General Geraldzelski. And again, if I'm

613
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,400
butchering these names. I apologize every bed with that. I

614
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:43,119
don't like any any Slavic guys or girls of listening,

615
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,760
like don't hesitate to correct me in the comments or whatever.

616
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,840
But I'm not good with these pronunciations. But gerald Zelski

617
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,880
was an interesting guy. Uh. He was the only military

618
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,639
man who was a chief of state of a warsaw

619
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,400
pet state, which is interesting to me at least because

620
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,480
tone deaf is. The Soviets were like as bad as

621
00:39:01,519 --> 00:39:07,039
their optics were. Uh, they realized in some basic way

622
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,519
that they couldn't just install you know these like military

623
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:15,840
uh strong men in the several satellite states. But Poland,

624
00:39:16,559 --> 00:39:18,559
this is I mean, Poland was under martial law from

625
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,960
from nineteen eighty eighty one onward. But Geraldzelski was a

626
00:39:23,039 --> 00:39:26,159
tragic guy. You know. He he looked ominous because it

627
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,480
was in uniform and he'd wear these really dark sunglasses.

628
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,239
Jeraldzelski's eyes were ruined by snow blindness. He was a

629
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,000
he was a Polish and he was he was he

630
00:39:34,079 --> 00:39:37,800
was a Polish national of noble birth when the Soviets

631
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:42,480
invaded eastern Poland in nineteen thirty nine, owing to his

632
00:39:42,599 --> 00:39:45,920
parentage and and pedigree. He was sent to a gulag

633
00:39:46,559 --> 00:39:49,079
and uh spent years at hard labor and uh the

634
00:39:49,119 --> 00:39:53,920
glare off the snow ruined his eyes. But he you know,

635
00:39:54,039 --> 00:39:56,960
was telling too that he was that the Soviets had

636
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,199
to rely on him. You know that there really really

637
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,559
there there were no there were no dedicated Polish Communists,

638
00:40:02,679 --> 00:40:04,519
you know, it was it was more of a the

639
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,000
the pole Communists. Poland was more of a contribance even

640
00:40:08,039 --> 00:40:10,039
than the D d R or any or anything else

641
00:40:10,559 --> 00:40:15,119
within the Warsaw deck structure, which is interesting. But Bush

642
00:40:15,159 --> 00:40:18,280
and Geraldzelsky had a certain rapport, and Bush went as

643
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:23,119
far as to convinced gerald Zelski to stand for president

644
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:28,280
when uh, when Poland UH had their first multi party election.

645
00:40:28,639 --> 00:40:33,800
And Bush was criticized roundly and uniformly for that. But

646
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:39,719
his notion was, uh that you know, Gerlzelski, once uh,

647
00:40:40,679 --> 00:40:43,559
the once the once Moscow's boot is no longer on

648
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,480
the neck of the Polish nation figuratively and literally. A

649
00:40:47,559 --> 00:40:50,360
man like Gerlzelski can really rise to the occasion. And

650
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,719
I understand that even if that's not realistic in context.

651
00:40:56,199 --> 00:41:00,800
But this was Bush's notion, Okay, and it was his defense.

652
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,079
What he said later in his own words, were he

653
00:41:06,199 --> 00:41:08,000
wasn't gonna go to he wasn't going to visit the

654
00:41:08,039 --> 00:41:11,599
Eastern Block and go on thumping his chest and trying

655
00:41:11,639 --> 00:41:14,719
to stick it to the Soviets that their system was crumbling.

656
00:41:16,079 --> 00:41:19,079
And he also would loud really large over US policy,

657
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,760
you know, in nineteen fifty three, in nineteen fifty six,

658
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:28,079
in ninety sixty eight, the Soviets these were and square

659
00:41:28,199 --> 00:41:33,519
level UH interventions or and crackdowns on the people, first

660
00:41:33,599 --> 00:41:39,880
in East Germany, then in Hungary, then Czechoslovakia. There was

661
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:44,679
an understanding among among in not just Bush, but among

662
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:46,440
you know, people on kind of both sides of the

663
00:41:46,519 --> 00:41:50,880
divide in terms of how to proceed with the situation

664
00:41:51,079 --> 00:41:54,280
developing in the East, that if we push this too

665
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,960
hard or get too greedy in terms of demanding results

666
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,079
and demanding too much too soon, and we we may

667
00:42:01,559 --> 00:42:03,800
we may see you know, some kind of we may

668
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,039
see some kind of stalin his backlash and and UH

669
00:42:07,199 --> 00:42:10,159
a full scale invasion of Poland then and and it

670
00:42:10,199 --> 00:42:13,719
would be a massacre. So I'm not I'm not sitting

671
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:15,760
here saying again that people should like it was forty

672
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:17,719
one or should like share that view, but I'm just

673
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,480
trying to give a balanced perspective. And it was his

674
00:42:20,599 --> 00:42:23,199
view was not born of some kind of Simpleton's delusion,

675
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:30,400
even if it was not realistic. But what, uh, what

676
00:42:30,599 --> 00:42:36,199
ultimately did happen was, uh, it was very interesting and

677
00:42:36,519 --> 00:42:44,280
really conspiratorial, kind of figuratively and literally. And again we're

678
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:46,719
kind of gonna come back to the CIA and it's incompetence.

679
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:51,079
And I know people think I overstate this, but consider

680
00:42:51,159 --> 00:42:56,199
this William Crowe. He was another general who was gonna

681
00:42:57,079 --> 00:42:59,119
he would have been considered something like a minister without

682
00:42:59,159 --> 00:43:03,000
portfolio served a European government. But he was close to

683
00:43:03,039 --> 00:43:05,800
Bush forty one and Baker and spoke Croft and that

684
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:11,239
whole coterie. He said, the CIA literally in mid nineteen

685
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,280
eighty nine, he said there was still there were still

686
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,239
showing dispatches that spoke about the USSR as if it

687
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:20,119
was twenty years earlier. They were claiming that Gorbachev was

688
00:43:20,199 --> 00:43:23,320
simply a biting the bresident doctrine. But you know, he

689
00:43:23,519 --> 00:43:26,000
was reluctant to deploy force because he was trying to

690
00:43:26,079 --> 00:43:29,239
lull the West into a false sense of security. It's

691
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,199
like they were in in In Crow's words, he said,

692
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,199
it says if the CIA didn't never see the news.

693
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:36,440
He said it was as if like they'd take just

694
00:43:36,559 --> 00:43:40,079
kind of official dispatches from East Berlin or Moscow kind

695
00:43:40,119 --> 00:43:42,840
of knock a percentage off, and the credibility you then

696
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,039
released that is basically you know fat you know, oh

697
00:43:46,159 --> 00:43:48,320
the East Berlin says that you know, the that the

698
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,920
regime of Strowger than ever that must be true, or

699
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,960
you know, the like like Grochev's the General secretary and

700
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:55,480
he says there's gonna be no, you know, they're not

701
00:43:55,559 --> 00:43:57,960
gonna they're not gonna drop the planet economy and the

702
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,559
Soviet Union will remain. So that's that's the fact. I mean,

703
00:44:01,599 --> 00:44:03,960
I'm not I'm not using that probably that this this

704
00:44:04,079 --> 00:44:06,119
was literally what they were saying. And I mean that

705
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:09,960
anybody again thinks the CIA is like the seat of

706
00:44:10,159 --> 00:44:13,239
of shadow of government or the intelligence community has got

707
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:19,360
to consider that Defense intelligence really, I mean not forget

708
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,119
the tangent, but but defense intelligence, the d i A.

709
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,880
They really they really got of became the guts of

710
00:44:25,119 --> 00:44:28,239
US intelligence in a basic way. Okay them the n

711
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:32,679
s A and you know, uh a lot of quasi

712
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,440
private uh entities that you know, our contract and things

713
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:43,480
like that. But the as everybody knows, uh, the great

714
00:44:43,639 --> 00:44:48,719
foil to gorbich Off is Yelston. But Yelton's the sentence.

715
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,559
Yelton was not this kind of great democratizer. I mean

716
00:44:51,599 --> 00:44:57,159
he he's viewed that way because uh, you know he

717
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,719
uh he was kind of the king of the referendum.

718
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:05,199
But you know it's not people have this idea, I

719
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:09,280
think because it's byzantine literally, but also like memories are short,

720
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:11,199
I mean, including my own. I'm not saying I'm like

721
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:15,239
above this or something. People seem to remember this as

722
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,519
you know, there was a you know, the Soviet Union

723
00:45:18,559 --> 00:45:22,239
finally held elections, Yelton beat Gorbachev, and then there was

724
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,920
some kind of referendum to dismantle the Soviet Union. Like

725
00:45:25,039 --> 00:45:29,639
that's not what happened when Yelson seized the power. It's

726
00:45:29,679 --> 00:45:32,639
what Gorbachev was, you know, kidnapped by the koup lotters.

727
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:39,559
Yelton presieded to raise to the Russian White House declare

728
00:45:39,639 --> 00:45:42,679
himself for all practical purposes President of the Russian Federation.

729
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,039
Upon ascending to that role, and I mean there was

730
00:45:48,079 --> 00:45:52,000
a referendum insinuating him into that role, he declared the

731
00:45:52,079 --> 00:45:56,480
Soviet Union to be abolished. So the office is Gorbachev

732
00:45:56,639 --> 00:46:00,599
held's a General Secretary of the Communist Party ceased to

733
00:46:00,639 --> 00:46:07,320
hold any meaning because the entity that Gorbachev held that

734
00:46:07,519 --> 00:46:11,079
office in was was abolished by Dick Todd, which is

735
00:46:11,199 --> 00:46:17,159
very strange. Now, who are Yeltsin's backers. There's a combination

736
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:20,719
of kind of radical reformers, you know, these uh, these

737
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:26,400
kind of uh this kind of wild West capitalist types

738
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,000
who kind of saw the looming anarchy as a as

739
00:46:30,039 --> 00:46:34,280
as opportunities for great proper potential. But it was also

740
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:39,159
a lot of stalin As hardliners who uh hated gorbachew

741
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:41,719
Now why did they back Yelson? I mean the kind

742
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:43,960
of conventional wisdom as well. They just wanted power in

743
00:46:44,039 --> 00:46:46,280
the new regime. I don't know if it's that simple, man.

744
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:51,639
I think some of them thought that Yelson would rook Garbicheff. Yeah,

745
00:46:51,679 --> 00:46:53,280
they have to settle for a rumpt state of just

746
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,880
you know, Russia basically. But I think they thought that

747
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:58,360
Yelton was just gonna return things to the status quo

748
00:46:58,559 --> 00:47:01,760
after that. But then he didn't, And why didn't he

749
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,480
do that? I think he was basically bought off by

750
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:09,719
you know Team B the Oconn faction, like fearatively and

751
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,679
literally bought off. I can't prove that with receipts, but

752
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,599
I I've thought about this a lot, I've studied a lot,

753
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,360
and I've read a lot of direct testimony in the

754
00:47:20,599 --> 00:47:27,039
in the epoch, I I think that's what happened. Now. Also,

755
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:32,840
you know, Putin became Yelton's successor, and Putin had a

756
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:36,320
variety of roles, like some some more prestigious than others,

757
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,880
and at certain junctures he was sidelined. I mean that

758
00:47:39,079 --> 00:47:44,159
never in In in some disgraceful way. But the fact

759
00:47:44,199 --> 00:47:47,719
that Putin himself and Putin is not some hardliner, but

760
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:51,039
he has a product in the old system. Okay, if

761
00:47:51,159 --> 00:47:54,920
yelt didn't really was this kind of oren't liberal. I'm

762
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:56,960
using it in these terms, in the terms of the

763
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:58,880
regime employs them. I don't mean that he that's what

764
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,480
he actually is. But if he also has got this

765
00:48:01,639 --> 00:48:05,599
arch capitalist or former you know, neoliberal ideologue, like he

766
00:48:05,639 --> 00:48:08,559
would not have had men like Provement in his orbit.

767
00:48:08,679 --> 00:48:10,199
He would not have he would have had him take

768
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:11,559
he would not have made him taken up a shot

769
00:48:11,639 --> 00:48:14,679
or something but these guys would have been pensioned off

770
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:19,320
and and and sent far away from from Moscow furgively

771
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,239
and literally. But again I'm not I don't speak Russian

772
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,760
or read it, and I'm not some kind of expert

773
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,239
on the Russian people, their culture or the Soviet Union.

774
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:39,320
But I am convinced that that's what that's what happened. It. Uh,

775
00:48:40,639 --> 00:48:46,559
there's also something that people got to consider, the other

776
00:48:46,679 --> 00:48:50,559
kind of factor or constellation of factors that rooked and

777
00:48:50,639 --> 00:48:54,320
pushed his vision. And uh, I don't want to go

778
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,559
off track, because this is its own topic that's very dense,

779
00:48:57,679 --> 00:48:59,960
but you know, the casting of Sloping on the Lilow

780
00:49:00,519 --> 00:49:05,320
as this mass murdering nationalist extremists. He was the State

781
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:07,639
Department's guy, and he was the guy who was viewed

782
00:49:07,679 --> 00:49:11,239
as the moderate they could work with by Washington, and

783
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:14,559
Boyce very much wanted to keep you with Slavia together.

784
00:49:16,639 --> 00:49:20,639
What happened was Helmut Cole, who I think was about

785
00:49:21,679 --> 00:49:25,360
as as nationalists as any is any chance that the

786
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:29,719
Buddhist Republic could be or can be. When two Jamon's

787
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:33,039
Croatian it cleared independence, Cole recognized them immediately, and then

788
00:49:33,079 --> 00:49:35,679
the die was cast. There was gonna be war in

789
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:41,320
the Balkans, and that was key to forming contemporary identities.

790
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,800
That's why, in a very proximate way, and I'm sen directly,

791
00:49:47,199 --> 00:49:52,719
the Slavic Orthodox identity became paramount again. That's why Bosniaks

792
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:57,800
became very Maslem. Again. There's a whole lot of a

793
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:01,840
national soldialist inclined German guys who like Ingo Hasselbach was.

794
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,480
He was not an attractive guy, but he was a

795
00:50:04,559 --> 00:50:07,320
skin ahead and he was he was very involved in

796
00:50:07,599 --> 00:50:10,480
in in the in the right wing and in the DDR.

797
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:13,679
You know, he and his people recruited a bunch of

798
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,880
Germans to go fight for Croatia. And this was very real.

799
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,960
There's not some This was not some Ukraine kind of

800
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,639
situation of guys, you know, kind of pretending to be

801
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:26,639
things they're not and and strange kind of propagandasm really

802
00:50:26,679 --> 00:50:29,840
makes sense like this, this really was, uh a kind

803
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,760
of a kind of return to to to Europe's identitarian

804
00:50:34,159 --> 00:50:41,679
status quo. Now in the wake of this, uh, you know,

805
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,519
obviously the view that run out was not that won out,

806
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,119
was not the Bush forty one view. And you know,

807
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:50,800
the what was also in my opinion kind of Nixon view.

808
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:55,159
Although he had Bush part of the ways and key issues,

809
00:50:56,039 --> 00:50:59,840
what went out was the Neo con view. Literally, and

810
00:51:00,039 --> 00:51:02,320
what you're seeing Ukraine is the culmination of this kind

811
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:06,800
of thirty year effort of the detonation strategy of radicalizing

812
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:10,559
the nationalities. Like that's what it is. It also has

813
00:51:10,599 --> 00:51:15,480
to do with preventing Europe from a from a you know,

814
00:51:15,599 --> 00:51:21,039
becoming at all autonomous, because a Russian German concord is

815
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:24,639
is really what is the path that's superpowered them? Okay,

816
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,119
but and I mean no, I mean ron there's many

817
00:51:28,159 --> 00:51:30,840
many guys in Washington who don't care about Ukraine or Russia,

818
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:35,079
and that's their notion. However, the faction we're talking about,

819
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,000
they very very much have an ancestral hatred of Russia

820
00:51:38,599 --> 00:51:42,320
and they very very much abide this idea that you know,

821
00:51:42,679 --> 00:51:46,760
the structures rotten, it should be destroyed. If we can

822
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:50,159
utilize Ukraine as a kind of torpedo, so be it.

823
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:54,679
You know, if we can any way we can, any

824
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,960
way we can, we can facilitate the real detonation on

825
00:51:58,199 --> 00:52:01,719
on the frontier. We want to do it. Uh, it's

826
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:06,440
really that simple. But that's I know, it seems like

827
00:52:06,519 --> 00:52:08,760
I jumped around a lot, but these are the key

828
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:13,239
developments to understanding what happened. And like I said, next time,

829
00:52:13,559 --> 00:52:17,760
we'll we'll start out with the Berlin Airlift. I think

830
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:19,880
that's a good starting point because, as I guess there,

831
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:21,840
that have to be the start of the Cold War, Okay,

832
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:25,559
and from there we'll go in like linear terms. But

833
00:52:26,079 --> 00:52:28,039
I thought that this was important. I hope I didn't

834
00:52:28,079 --> 00:52:31,239
bore anybody or put anybody off by doing it that way.

835
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:35,880
But that's, uh, that's I think we're all stop for now.

836
00:52:37,079 --> 00:52:40,199
Speaker 1: Well, let me let me ask you a question. Yeah,

837
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:44,079
you'll keep going, You'll keep going a little bit. What

838
00:52:44,159 --> 00:52:46,440
would happened if Ducacus would have got elected in nineteen

839
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:46,840
eighty eight.

840
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 2: That's a really interesting question. And it's interesting you raise

841
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:54,760
that because the other day on Twitter I was talking

842
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:58,039
to some of the fellas about the fact that there

843
00:52:58,079 --> 00:53:01,920
was an actual policy divide, like a real cleft, you know,

844
00:53:02,039 --> 00:53:06,239
between uh national security hawks and and people who thought

845
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:10,719
that time could be preserved. Do Cougress was definitely from

846
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:13,679
the ladder tendency, and then it was held against him.

847
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:16,800
You know, there's that famous people People think Caucuss is

848
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:19,360
kind of Howard Dean stream scream moment is when he

849
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:21,159
was writing in that tank, like looking like an idiot

850
00:53:21,199 --> 00:53:23,719
with like a homon like the wrong way, you're trying to.

851
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:26,119
Speaker 1: Look like snooky.

852
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:30,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I actually exerience kind of a badass though,

853
00:53:30,039 --> 00:53:33,679
like Stewie fights Threat Barren, like uh, Couress took like

854
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,519
a fucking jig off. But yeah, but he looked and

855
00:53:37,199 --> 00:53:39,480
if even if Tocagass had been more of kind of

856
00:53:39,519 --> 00:53:42,960
a like a like a manly like photogen a guy,

857
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:45,519
it was so it was so contribed. It's him trying

858
00:53:45,519 --> 00:53:47,559
to look like you have tough on defense, gonna be

859
00:53:47,599 --> 00:53:49,920
in this tank, you know, you know, yeah, yeah, you know,

860
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:54,119
the hell with even but it's uh, but the Caucus's cabinet.

861
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:57,440
I mean, I think Caucuss was uh. I think docungss

862
00:53:57,559 --> 00:53:59,679
was was a tackling dummy who was he was a

863
00:53:59,679 --> 00:54:02,840
four inclusion that that people wanted another Reagan term and

864
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,000
they weren't gonna get that obviously. And Bush was the

865
00:54:05,039 --> 00:54:08,039
closest thing. And even though Bush was very very at

866
00:54:08,039 --> 00:54:10,320
odds with the Reagan and people associated them, I mean

867
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:12,079
just I mean, you know how voters are, especially in

868
00:54:12,159 --> 00:54:17,320
those days. Yeah, of course, yeah, any any even a

869
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:19,400
guy like Mondale kind of an old kind of an

870
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:21,840
old line, more running the mill democratic than Kaye's kind

871
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:23,480
of a weird nominee. You know. He was like like,

872
00:54:23,519 --> 00:54:25,039
I'm not being pressed, but he was. He was like

873
00:54:25,119 --> 00:54:29,800
this ethnic politician, franky. Yeah, even a more traditional U

874
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:36,480
kind of Democrat, he would have had real problems, especially

875
00:54:36,519 --> 00:54:39,599
if at a hospital Congress. But it's also the U,

876
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:43,639
I do believe. And Bush made this point too. I mean,

877
00:54:43,679 --> 00:54:47,440
despite everything I just said about Bush's Bush very very

878
00:54:47,559 --> 00:54:50,880
very much believed in negotiating the end of the Soviet

879
00:54:51,039 --> 00:54:53,559
negotiating with the Soviet unions that ended from position of

880
00:54:54,039 --> 00:54:59,039
very very profound strength, okay, And I think that was essential.

881
00:55:00,039 --> 00:55:04,480
I think it overla like a conciliatory executive who'd approached

882
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:06,880
the Soviet who'd approached kind of the failing Soviet Union

883
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:10,639
as hey, what we want to re establish Theayton That

884
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:13,079
could have been a game changer. Maybe one thing to

885
00:55:13,199 --> 00:55:18,840
temb Coterie was right about. If they were right about anything.

886
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:24,159
I think wolf Fords himself, I think, is the source

887
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:26,039
of this and I agree with it, and I don't

888
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:28,960
I say a wolf Witz at all. He said that

889
00:55:29,079 --> 00:55:32,440
Soviet Union by nineteen seventy four to seventy five, I

890
00:55:32,519 --> 00:55:34,760
was said of the Third World, nobody had any respect

891
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:37,880
from Marxist Leninism people in the Soviet Union. Their quality

892
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:40,199
of life was better than the Third World, but not

893
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:43,400
by hell of a lot. Nobody believed that, you know,

894
00:55:43,519 --> 00:55:45,760
the Soviet Union was leading the world and the sciences

895
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:49,159
or something. All the Soviet Union had was arguably the

896
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:52,599
world's mightiest military arguab with the mightiest army that ever existed.

897
00:55:53,519 --> 00:55:56,679
If the only thing, the only thing making you a

898
00:55:56,719 --> 00:56:00,400
superpower is your military and the fact you've got eight

899
00:56:00,519 --> 00:56:07,280
thousand uh nuclear weapons, that changes things. That means power

900
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:12,960
projection becomes becomes overvalued. It means the entire discourse within

901
00:56:13,519 --> 00:56:17,599
the state apparatus kind of orbits around hard power. And

902
00:56:17,679 --> 00:56:22,599
that's very what happened North Korea today. Yeah, it's superpower scale.

903
00:56:23,079 --> 00:56:27,960
I mean that's and I the so this idea that

904
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:30,719
the Soviet Union was bent on world domination in a

905
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:34,599
very in a in a very concrete and brutal way.

906
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:38,079
I believe that the United State has been on world domination. Two.

907
00:56:38,639 --> 00:56:40,159
But the United States had a way of subverting on

908
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:42,599
societies other than you know, we're going to level you

909
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:45,800
and decimate you and genocide you. I mean, America would

910
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:47,599
do that too if they had to, but that wasn't

911
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:52,599
just like the option of first recourse. And I have

912
00:56:52,679 --> 00:56:57,280
no doubt. And Gorbio his memoirs made this point, if this,

913
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:00,519
if every about every decade, okay, ninety fifty, in ninety

914
00:57:00,519 --> 00:57:04,280
sixty two, nine seventy three, and eighty three, the world

915
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:07,400
came closer, very very close to nuclear war, and each

916
00:57:07,519 --> 00:57:11,039
time arguably it was like even closer like the Cold War,

917
00:57:11,159 --> 00:57:13,719
and definitely continued. I mean, let's take continue to like

918
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:16,719
the late nineties just even and so like by nineteen

919
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:19,800
ninety five ninety six, you know, nuclear weapons are basically

920
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:22,599
all now in space, you know, and it's okay, like

921
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:24,719
that was like a three minute warning time, you know,

922
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:27,039
basically like the Soviets like blank, It's like, okay, we

923
00:57:27,159 --> 00:57:29,159
got to destroy them. I mean, like, what would happen

924
00:57:29,239 --> 00:57:33,480
then in a crisis, you know, or like it eventually

925
00:57:33,519 --> 00:57:35,840
it would have happened. That would mean the world would

926
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:37,679
have ended. But there would have been probably forty million

927
00:57:37,719 --> 00:57:40,119
people dead or like one hundred million people dead, and

928
00:57:40,159 --> 00:57:42,840
that would have changed everything. Man, that would have changed

929
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:45,880
life on earth forever, like not in like horror movie terms,

930
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:50,000
but the terminator. But if like a hundred million people

931
00:57:50,079 --> 00:57:52,360
died in nuclear war, like the world would never be

932
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:55,400
the same, you know. And it's in ways we can't

933
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:59,840
even imagine, you know, I mean think about that. It so,

934
00:58:01,119 --> 00:58:02,519
I mean one of the things that so one of

935
00:58:02,519 --> 00:58:06,800
the reasons the Soviet Union, even guys I think believe

936
00:58:07,039 --> 00:58:08,840
I know this, even guys who believe in the system,

937
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:10,960
they knew they had to find a way out of

938
00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:14,440
the Cold War, Like they knew it. Because again, this

939
00:58:14,599 --> 00:58:18,920
technology cannot be controlled. And people think it's and I'm

940
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:20,559
not just saying people are dumb or something. They just

941
00:58:20,639 --> 00:58:23,199
don't have a comparative basis. People think that something like

942
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:26,320
the Soviet Union of nineteen eighty five, it's not like

943
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:27,960
you know, the office you work at, even of a

944
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:30,639
big company of like fifty thousand people, Like, it's not

945
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:33,280
something like any one man or one hundred men or

946
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:36,360
a thousand men can just control you know. It's like,

947
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:39,360
once once the apparatus gets in motion towards kind of

948
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,639
a nuclear war vector, that's just what it's going to happen,

949
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,519
you know. And I mean that that was what was happening,

950
00:58:46,119 --> 00:58:49,199
you know, and this was not some paradoig fantasy or something,

951
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:53,239
you know. I mean, so that's one of the reasons.

952
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:55,320
I guess I'm kind of I've got kind of a

953
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:58,079
I've got kind of a like like guys in the

954
00:58:58,159 --> 00:58:59,760
right set, you've got like a soft view of Bush,

955
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:01,679
for one. I mean maybe I do. I don't know,

956
00:59:02,039 --> 00:59:05,360
but I mean whatever, I don't care what people think

957
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:09,360
about my takes on on on chief executives of history.

958
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:14,519
But there was like what it is described didn't happen, okay,

959
00:59:14,719 --> 00:59:17,360
and some of that we owe to people like Bush. Okay.

960
00:59:17,719 --> 00:59:20,400
Uh yeah, the Cold Wars would have happened in the

961
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:22,719
first place. You know, World War can not have happened,

962
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:25,039
but but it did happen. So that's where we were at.

963
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:28,360
You gotta judge things in their epoch. So that's I realize.

964
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:30,000
That's the name complete answer, the best the best I

965
00:59:30,079 --> 00:59:34,559
can do. That's a great question, thank you. Yeah.

966
00:59:35,039 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 1: He I just remember them selling, oh he's from Massachusetts,

967
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:41,159
and they tried to connect him to be like the

968
00:59:41,239 --> 00:59:43,280
next Kennedy or something like that. It was just.

969
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 2: I mean Bush, you know, God loved Bush. But other

970
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:49,800
than and Bush was actually a great commander in chief

971
00:59:49,840 --> 00:59:52,519
and the way he managed the Gulf War with with

972
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:55,800
like like like a like a Prussian officer the highest

973
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:58,639
caliber would okay. But other than that, I mean Bush

974
00:59:58,719 --> 01:00:00,280
was not a man and the people. I mean, that's

975
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:02,519
why he got smoked in the three way race with

976
01:00:02,639 --> 01:00:06,000
Clinton and Parole. But I mean the fact that Bush

977
01:00:06,119 --> 01:00:08,760
was able to sweep the country against ducaucas It's like, look, man,

978
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:10,920
it's like you're getting. If you're getting smoked by Bush,

979
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:14,119
you know, it's like you've got you're not a viable candidate.

980
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:17,639
See docs was a weird like a guy like greetor

981
01:00:17,679 --> 01:00:19,079
Scott Greer. He'd be a good guy to take that

982
01:00:19,199 --> 01:00:21,360
up with because like he, I mean, he knows like

983
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:23,360
electoral politics like the back of his hands, Like I

984
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:25,159
really don't. I mean I know the outcome, but it's

985
01:00:25,199 --> 01:00:27,760
I don't have like deep takes on that stuff generally,

986
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:29,920
But do Coucress was a weird He was a weird

987
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:33,800
nominee man. He definitely was. He definitely was.

988
01:00:35,559 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 1: I think that is gonna be a great first episode.

989
01:00:38,679 --> 01:00:40,480
Give your plugs and we'll end it.

990
01:00:41,239 --> 01:00:44,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, then you pete. Uh. The main place people should

991
01:00:44,679 --> 01:00:47,800
hit me up as h on my substick. It's real,

992
01:00:48,639 --> 01:00:53,960
real Thomas seven seven seven at substack dot com dot

993
01:00:54,039 --> 01:00:56,159
substack dot com. Sorry, you can find me on t

994
01:00:56,360 --> 01:01:00,760
gram Telegram at t dot emmy slash v number seven

995
01:01:01,079 --> 01:01:04,639
h seven seven seven. I bet on Twitter once again

996
01:01:04,719 --> 01:01:08,320
because Elon seems to not be laying the hammer down

997
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:10,239
on people. You know, for the record, man, like I've

998
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:13,000
never actually violated Twitter in terms of service. I'm not

999
01:01:13,079 --> 01:01:15,199
just saying like I never have, you know, but I've

1000
01:01:15,239 --> 01:01:18,559
been banned like half a dozen times. But you can

1001
01:01:18,639 --> 01:01:26,480
find me there at Triskellian Jahad. The first t is

1002
01:01:26,599 --> 01:01:30,960
number seven, but I'll post it's posted up in my

1003
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:34,280
substack and stuff and just go there. And I mean,

1004
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:35,880
for all I know, in like two days won't be

1005
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:38,360
there anymore. So it's and I am launching the day

1006
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:40,960
and YouTube channel. Please don't think I'm being a total flake.

1007
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:42,880
I've just had a lot on my plate in terms

1008
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:46,480
of content and like other stuff. But I it is

1009
01:01:46,599 --> 01:01:48,880
moving forward. I got an announcement. I think people will

1010
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:51,480
be happy about him. I'm debating the jfk assassination in

1011
01:01:51,519 --> 01:01:53,079
a few days with a guy that I got a

1012
01:01:53,079 --> 01:01:55,239
lot of respect for and he's actually a college professor

1013
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:57,599
of the right kind. He's like a right wing history

1014
01:01:58,320 --> 01:01:59,880
but he does agree with me profound me so that

1015
01:02:00,119 --> 01:02:01,599
people will dig that. I'm going to do it on

1016
01:02:01,639 --> 01:02:03,639
a live stream, so well, I'll hit people to that.

1017
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:06,039
And that's what I got. And thank you very much, Pete.

1018
01:02:06,039 --> 01:02:08,039
I really appreciate your hosting me. I really, I really

1019
01:02:08,079 --> 01:02:13,440
appreciate people watching and comment and stuff. I really mean that,

1020
01:02:13,519 --> 01:02:14,199
I'm not just being poor.

1021
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:18,199
Speaker 1: Well, I can't wait for until we go back to

1022
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:23,440
the beginning because that's where the intrigue of that is.

1023
01:02:24,199 --> 01:02:27,719
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, it's really yeah. Yeah, no, I'm very

1024
01:02:27,719 --> 01:02:30,840
excite man, and I'm very very I'm very stoked that

1025
01:02:31,159 --> 01:02:33,960
you you had had this notion for us to do

1026
01:02:34,039 --> 01:02:35,559
this series. So thank you very much again.

1027
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:41,000
Speaker 1: All right, thank you, take care of Thomas. Welcome everyone

1028
01:02:41,159 --> 01:02:46,280
back to the Pete Kenyonas Show. Got Thomas seven seven

1029
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:49,559
seven here, and we're going to get into some stuff

1030
01:02:49,679 --> 01:02:52,559
not only about the Cold War, maybe we'll talk to

1031
01:02:52,599 --> 01:02:54,280
some current events. How are you doing, Thomas?

1032
01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:57,519
Speaker 2: Very well, Thanks for hosting me again. Yeah, I was thinking,

1033
01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:00,960
I mean your point before we went why you were

1034
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:04,280
talking about the election results, and I agree with you.

1035
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:07,039
I think that warrant mentioned, not just because the kind

1036
01:03:07,039 --> 01:03:10,239
of thing is important, but what's happening in Russia and

1037
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:14,440
in Central Europe at present. I believe it's I believe

1038
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:19,280
the current conflict cycle is resolving somewhat peaceably, if not ideally,

1039
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:23,440
from you know, my own perspective, but I mean, it's

1040
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:26,519
going to remain relevant for the foreseeable future. And this

1041
01:03:26,639 --> 01:03:29,000
is approximately caused by the Cold War. And if we're

1042
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:31,760
talking about anything of a foreign policy nature or anything

1043
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:37,280
relating to the strategic situation as it stands in twenty

1044
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:41,360
twenty two, where we're talking about phenomenon events and even

1045
01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:45,719
personages like the primary players are our people who who's

1046
01:03:46,119 --> 01:03:47,800
who can only be understood in the context of the

1047
01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:51,079
Cold War. And also some of the fellas on t

1048
01:03:51,239 --> 01:03:55,719
GRAM we're asking some questions about the topic, and we

1049
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,079
can get into some of those two. I mean, there's

1050
01:03:58,079 --> 01:03:59,800
a lot of stuff that they were asking, some of

1051
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:01,960
which is kind of like ahead of where we're at

1052
01:04:02,039 --> 01:04:04,320
on the timeline, some of which relates more to the

1053
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:06,920
revision of stuff we were dealing with with a second

1054
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:10,760
World War, but a long last moving forward, we'll cover

1055
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:14,840
all of those, But I just briefly I'm not some

1056
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:18,920
poll watcher like our friend Scott Career, DJ Scutty g

1057
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:24,280
uh Internet cereal thriller and uh Beltway kill a but uh,

1058
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:27,079
but I'm not making fun of him. He's a good

1059
01:04:27,119 --> 01:04:28,920
dude and he's been nice enough to host me on

1060
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:30,239
IT show a few times. And I don't know why

1061
01:04:30,239 --> 01:04:32,280
anybody would do that if they're a reputable person, because

1062
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:35,519
I like that seems like I.

1063
01:04:37,639 --> 01:04:38,519
Speaker 1: Really appreciate that.

1064
01:04:38,679 --> 01:04:40,400
Speaker 2: No, no, no, I say, it's like it seems like

1065
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:41,800
it would cause you a lot of grief and like

1066
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:43,840
not a lot of benefit. I mean, you're you're a

1067
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:45,960
guy who's you're not like a fringe guy, but you're

1068
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:48,239
a guy who's not afraid to like deal with like

1069
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:51,400
radical things, not radical things like oh that's awesome and radical,

1070
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:54,199
like you know, people have like radical tendencies. I don't

1071
01:04:54,199 --> 01:04:57,199
think I have those tendencies, But I ideal with stuff

1072
01:04:57,239 --> 01:05:02,280
that is a magnet for censorious uh type of uh enforcers.

1073
01:05:02,679 --> 01:05:04,920
That's all I meant. But he's got you know, he's

1074
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:07,280
got a real uh. He guys like him and like

1075
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:10,719
and like our guy Paul Fahrenheit. I always tap them

1076
01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:14,599
for kind of their thoughts on on you know, on

1077
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:17,519
on during election the season because they're really like clued

1078
01:05:17,559 --> 01:05:22,800
in to that and I am not. However, uh national elections, Uh,

1079
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:25,480
I tend to I tend to pick presidential contest pretty

1080
01:05:25,519 --> 01:05:28,920
well in primary season. But regardless, I didn't think there's

1081
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:31,400
any big surprises, man. And I know this morning I

1082
01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:34,719
got on Twitter like that that uh that uh that

1083
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:39,440
sling blade guy in Pennsylvania. Uh like Bubba Feder person

1084
01:05:39,519 --> 01:05:42,039
or whate the fuck his name is or Feder federal woman,

1085
01:05:42,679 --> 01:05:45,880
federal person. I don't know what he. Uh, I mean

1086
01:05:46,159 --> 01:05:49,199
they're that and like the he because you know, the

1087
01:05:49,480 --> 01:05:52,079
diabolical doctor Oz going down in flames made a lot

1088
01:05:52,079 --> 01:05:55,719
of people upset. But the Republicans, they they won huge

1089
01:05:55,760 --> 01:06:00,199
in Florida, like statewide and uh jd Vance came after

1090
01:06:00,199 --> 01:06:02,440
to Ohio. I mean, grant, I'm not at loop, but

1091
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:04,280
I like look at those things as like a win, man.

1092
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:06,800
I mean, I like, unless I'm missing something like that's

1093
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:09,320
that's a win. And they obviously got twenty twenty. They

1094
01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:11,960
got the white I was twenty twenty four unless they

1095
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:16,400
joined the kind of witch hunt against their guy, mister Trump.

1096
01:06:17,079 --> 01:06:24,159
Speaker 1: Desantist turned ten ten districts, in Miami that are normally

1097
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:24,920
blue red.

1098
01:06:25,719 --> 01:06:28,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's insane. I mean the state of Florida is

1099
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:31,559
now like a safe red state, and that's crazy. I mean,

1100
01:06:31,599 --> 01:06:34,119
not like objectively, but I mean considering the last twenty years,

1101
01:06:34,159 --> 01:06:35,559
the way things have gone. I mean that I don't

1102
01:06:35,599 --> 01:06:37,920
see how there's not a win. I mean, were they

1103
01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:41,000
expecting like some nationwide sweep. I don't. I mean, I

1104
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:44,079
I don't know. They seem I think they should be happy.

1105
01:06:44,199 --> 01:06:46,800
But all I saw, I mean, granted, like social media

1106
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:49,280
is its own thing and sometimes forget how weird it is,

1107
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:51,119
and presidents. I haven't been on it for a minute,

1108
01:06:51,199 --> 01:06:53,119
but like this morning, like I got all these like

1109
01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:56,159
got all these Twitter alerts, these like Republican type guys

1110
01:06:56,199 --> 01:06:58,519
who were not not Scott Greer. He's a very he's

1111
01:06:58,559 --> 01:07:01,559
a very not only a sensible guy, but he doesn't

1112
01:07:01,599 --> 01:07:02,920
go in for that kind of stuff. You had to

1113
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:05,320
read Balance for you. But a whole bunch of these

1114
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:08,159
kind of Internet you know, GOP cheer leaders. They were

1115
01:07:08,239 --> 01:07:11,519
acting like they were acting like there's some crushing defeat

1116
01:07:11,639 --> 01:07:13,119
or something. And so then like I started like looking

1117
01:07:13,119 --> 01:07:15,039
at their returns, I'm like, what the fuck are they

1118
01:07:15,079 --> 01:07:19,400
upset about man like im contemporary metrics. That seems like

1119
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:21,840
a win. But again, what do I know. I'm I'm

1120
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:24,119
a guy who writes about stuff from long ago and

1121
01:07:24,159 --> 01:07:28,920
speculates about the future. Maybe I don't really like plugged

1122
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:32,159
into the present day, but I don't know man like that.

1123
01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:35,440
And yeah, the sand this is a phenom I'm not

1124
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:37,079
going to be impressed with the saying is I mean

1125
01:07:37,119 --> 01:07:39,760
as a political operator, like he's dope, he's very good

1126
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:43,239
at what he does. And yeah, it's very impressive the

1127
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:45,840
way he's been able to flip uh you know, some

1128
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:51,960
key some key jurisdic jurisdictions at the local level. But uh, yeah,

1129
01:07:52,079 --> 01:07:53,800
I I don't. I don't know what they're I don't

1130
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:55,719
know why they're crying in their fucking corn flakes. But

1131
01:07:56,159 --> 01:07:58,079
again I'm not I'm not some pole watcher or some

1132
01:07:58,239 --> 01:08:03,320
freaking builtway expert. Quite the contrary. You know down in

1133
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:06,480
Texas when you were where people fire up about Trump

1134
01:08:06,519 --> 01:08:09,000
and stuff or they just kind of like whatever, Oh they.

1135
01:08:09,039 --> 01:08:12,519
Speaker 1: Just wanted to be Beto. Yeah they want yeah, yeah,

1136
01:08:12,679 --> 01:08:15,039
they I mean there are a lot of people, you know,

1137
01:08:15,119 --> 01:08:17,640
you go around Austin and you see some bedo signs.

1138
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:20,359
Once you get outside of Austin, once you're in the cities,

1139
01:08:20,399 --> 01:08:22,960
you'll see some when you get out of there, out

1140
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:25,239
of the cities there, you'll see some every once in

1141
01:08:25,319 --> 01:08:29,640
a while, but it's mostly you know, I think most

1142
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:31,800
of the people from Texas really don't like Abbott, but

1143
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:33,399
they really can't stand Beto.

1144
01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:37,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, Texas is a weird Texas kind of a I'm

1145
01:08:37,039 --> 01:08:39,239
not saying bad things about Texas. I like Texas and

1146
01:08:39,239 --> 01:08:41,239
I like Texas people, but their political culture is kind

1147
01:08:41,279 --> 01:08:43,960
of strange, you know, Like there's a like Rick Perry,

1148
01:08:44,039 --> 01:08:46,359
Franky's a weird guy. I mean, I know he's not.

1149
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:47,600
Speaker 3: I know he's not.

1150
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:49,560
Speaker 2: You know the I know he's not. He doesn't have

1151
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:52,760
the cash that he did, you know, uh some years back.

1152
01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:55,399
I like nationally, I never I never bought the height

1153
01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:57,399
that he was going to be impactful on the national stage.

1154
01:08:57,800 --> 01:09:00,640
But he was a weird guy even for like even

1155
01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:03,000
as you know, even as a state ball like I

1156
01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:05,439
I mean, Frankly, w is the sentence he was kind

1157
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:07,319
of weird. I mean, I don't think I don't I

1158
01:09:07,319 --> 01:09:09,000
don't think it's weird that I mean, w Frankly had

1159
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:10,880
his shipped together a lot more when he was when

1160
01:09:10,920 --> 01:09:13,199
he was younger. But I thought it was weird that,

1161
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:16,199
I mean, to Texas really liked him. You don't forget

1162
01:09:16,239 --> 01:09:17,800
that W was actually he had a he had a

1163
01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:21,000
very strong rapport of this constituency in Texas. And then

1164
01:09:21,119 --> 01:09:23,640
in his first term as president, like this idea that

1165
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:25,960
you know, everybody always hated W and he was just

1166
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:28,359
this failed politician. That's not true at all. I mean,

1167
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:30,319
nobody has to. I don't like the guy, and I

1168
01:09:30,479 --> 01:09:33,840
nobody nobody should. But he's you know, he he he

1169
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:37,880
did not. You can't simply buy your way uh to

1170
01:09:38,159 --> 01:09:42,039
uh to competitiveness, no, even especially if anything that might

1171
01:09:42,119 --> 01:09:44,159
work against you. When I say like textas okay, guy

1172
01:09:44,239 --> 01:09:46,800
like Bush, So I mean, I yeah, it's but I

1173
01:09:46,840 --> 01:09:48,960
thought it was weird that of all, I thought it

1174
01:09:49,039 --> 01:09:51,319
was weird. He struck me as like the kind of

1175
01:09:51,359 --> 01:09:54,199
twenty first century version of a Rockefeller Republican. And I'm like,

1176
01:09:54,239 --> 01:09:56,399
why why is Texas like this guy's home base? But

1177
01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:57,880
I mean, what do wh I know? And he was

1178
01:09:57,880 --> 01:09:59,279
big on he was big on gun rice, and he

1179
01:09:59,359 --> 01:10:01,119
was big pro death and the enemy back. And then

1180
01:10:01,319 --> 01:10:03,760
he's like those were issues that were kind of still

1181
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:05,159
up for grabs. So I don't know.

1182
01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:10,920
Speaker 1: Back in back in six somebody had put a video together.

1183
01:10:11,039 --> 01:10:14,000
It was a split screen video and it was it

1184
01:10:14,199 --> 01:10:18,840
was W in the gubernatorial debate in like ninety two,

1185
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:22,600
and then it was W in the presidential debate in

1186
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:27,800
two thousand and four. Right, yeah, Oh, in ninety two,

1187
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:30,159
he's just I mean, no notes, no, no, I mean,

1188
01:10:30,279 --> 01:10:32,760
there was no teleprompter. He had everything in his head

1189
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:34,800
and he was right. And then in two thousand and

1190
01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:36,319
four it was, you know.

1191
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 2: The guy. I think Bush had some I think two things.

1192
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:44,720
I think, first of all, I'm the last guy I

1193
01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:46,960
can like put shane on anybody with substance to use problem.

1194
01:10:47,039 --> 01:10:48,439
So not like saying that, oh Bush, you know they

1195
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:51,760
drove a year, they'd drunk. But I think he probably relapsed. Frankly,

1196
01:10:53,720 --> 01:10:56,319
I mean he was acting like somebody who did okay,

1197
01:10:56,880 --> 01:10:59,319
because yeah, I mean the guy it's not like he man.

1198
01:10:59,399 --> 01:11:01,399
I think also get some health problems that we're not

1199
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:04,560
let on on do because yeah, it wasn't just I

1200
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:07,000
mean I remember some of his apologists just being like, oh,

1201
01:11:07,039 --> 01:11:09,079
he you know, it's just like nerves. He's not used

1202
01:11:09,079 --> 01:11:11,199
to the office. It's like in Texas is a huge

1203
01:11:11,239 --> 01:11:13,000
state man, and like he's not. He was not some

1204
01:11:13,119 --> 01:11:15,760
freshman congressman. He was a fucking governor. You know, you

1205
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:17,920
can't tell me he's like scared of the camera or something.

1206
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:20,119
It's you know, he was not. He was. He was

1207
01:11:20,159 --> 01:11:22,920
compromised in some way, you know, whether it was health related,

1208
01:11:23,720 --> 01:11:26,199
ing the illness or substance abuse or whatever. And again,

1209
01:11:26,279 --> 01:11:27,880
like I said, I'm not like putting shade on it.

1210
01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:29,760
I'm the last person to do that. But but yeah,

1211
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:31,920
he was like two different people. It was really weird.

1212
01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:34,840
I'll see how that foot you're talking about. But we can,

1213
01:11:35,359 --> 01:11:37,359
we can dive into the Cold Wars. That's something I

1214
01:11:37,399 --> 01:11:38,600
know a hell of a lot more. I know a

1215
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:40,680
hell of a lot more about than I do. Uh,

1216
01:11:41,159 --> 01:11:43,880
the goings on in the swamp I kind of wanted

1217
01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:47,239
to get into. You know, there's this big debate like

1218
01:11:47,319 --> 01:11:49,880
to this day, and frankly, it's actually some decent scholarship

1219
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:52,880
coming out about the Cold War, not as much revision

1220
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:54,439
as stuff as I would like. And that's kind of

1221
01:11:54,520 --> 01:11:56,119
one of the things I believe I'm like here on

1222
01:11:56,199 --> 01:11:59,279
earth to do. I mean, I'm not I'm not being melodramatic,

1223
01:11:59,319 --> 01:12:01,720
Like I really believe that, because like there's not there's

1224
01:12:01,760 --> 01:12:04,399
a million guys who are World War Two revisionists, and

1225
01:12:04,439 --> 01:12:09,039
that's dope. That's that's important, Okay, But frankly, there's there's

1226
01:12:09,039 --> 01:12:12,079
almost nobody dealing with the Cold War and in a

1227
01:12:12,439 --> 01:12:17,119
critical capacity. So I think we're doing important stuff here

1228
01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:20,640
in that regard. I mean we always are, but in

1229
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:23,159
any event, there's a scholarly debate going on. It's like

1230
01:12:23,239 --> 01:12:27,079
when the Cold War ensued. I mean you can't. It's

1231
01:12:27,159 --> 01:12:33,119
tricky because obviously, when you're talking about a discrete armed conflict,

1232
01:12:33,399 --> 01:12:36,359
even when it's complicated as as the Second World War,

1233
01:12:36,680 --> 01:12:38,479
you know, you can kind of identify points at which

1234
01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:41,720
the status of relations fundamentally changed. You know, September third,

1235
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:45,079
ninety thirty nine, you know, the Western Allies declared war

1236
01:12:45,159 --> 01:12:47,920
on the German Right, Okay, that starts starting point, Like, yeah,

1237
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:51,920
there was hostilities emerging and active before then, but there's

1238
01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:53,960
not there's not any such point in the Cold War.

1239
01:12:54,840 --> 01:12:58,680
And the kind of tonal shift, not just in optics

1240
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:04,239
and narrative, but in policy, uh, from between the Truman

1241
01:13:04,239 --> 01:13:07,920
administration that Roosevelt administration was dramatic. I know, people on

1242
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:10,800
our side don't like Truman. I mean, I I've got

1243
01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:14,560
i Truman was not an evil man. He was not uh,

1244
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:20,000
he was not a gangster like Roosevelt. He didn't have

1245
01:13:20,079 --> 01:13:24,199
the hubris of Roosevelt. I've got mixed feelings about Truman.

1246
01:13:24,199 --> 01:13:26,399
I don't think Truman should have been president. Okay, But

1247
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:29,920
if we're talking about his moral character, and if we're

1248
01:13:29,960 --> 01:13:34,359
talking about what constituted his policy orientations with the Soviet Union,

1249
01:13:35,159 --> 01:13:38,000
he was in a very very difficult position and most

1250
01:13:38,039 --> 01:13:41,119
of the variables that were framing the decisions he had

1251
01:13:41,159 --> 01:13:44,319
to make it had nothing to do with his own sympathies.

1252
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:48,880
You know, he quite literally inherited this bizarre situation whereby

1253
01:13:49,640 --> 01:13:53,840
Germany was occupied by the four powers of the United States, UK,

1254
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:55,640
and then France got a seat at the table. I mean,

1255
01:13:55,640 --> 01:13:57,840
there's a total other issue in the in the Soviet Union,

1256
01:13:58,920 --> 01:14:00,760
there was there was no not only was there no

1257
01:14:01,399 --> 01:14:08,199
permanent status of of of you know, well now there's

1258
01:14:08,239 --> 01:14:11,119
no prodent peace treaty in the running. Nobody was even

1259
01:14:11,159 --> 01:14:13,920
talking about it, and it wasn't even clear like what

1260
01:14:14,079 --> 01:14:17,199
that would constitute. And really the only thing that it

1261
01:14:17,319 --> 01:14:21,239
set the tenor of relations at Yalta or at Tehran.

1262
01:14:21,439 --> 01:14:24,399
Everybody thinks Yelta's kind of word like everything, you know,

1263
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:28,319
everything kind of was set in perverbial stone. It was not.

1264
01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:34,600
It was Tehran in forty three. That's when Roosevelt seeded

1265
01:14:34,640 --> 01:14:39,079
Berlin to Stalin, which seems crazy unless you understand the

1266
01:14:39,119 --> 01:14:42,760
new Dealer ideology, which we we delved into in earnest

1267
01:14:43,199 --> 01:14:45,960
in our whole World War two series. But beyond that,

1268
01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:49,520
what's facinating to me is even men who you would

1269
01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:53,800
think would have known better, like Eisenhower. Okay, Eisenhower, whatever

1270
01:14:53,920 --> 01:14:55,880
else can be said about him, the guy was something

1271
01:14:55,920 --> 01:15:00,239
of a savant in terms of logistical, an engine hearing,

1272
01:15:00,279 --> 01:15:03,880
military matters, and he was a protege of pershing blackjack

1273
01:15:03,920 --> 01:15:08,479
person who's an under understated figure in the very histories

1274
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:14,359
he hasn't made. Eisenower said, uh. Eisenwer said uh to

1275
01:15:14,439 --> 01:15:17,359
one of his adjutants, And this is related by Omar Bradley,

1276
01:15:18,239 --> 01:15:20,600
you know. Uh. When there was discussion as to, you know,

1277
01:15:21,920 --> 01:15:24,560
the issue of allowing the Soviets to take Berlin, Eisenwer

1278
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:26,600
said something effective with my god, like who would want it?

1279
01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:28,880
You know they're gonna lose, you know, one hundred thousand

1280
01:15:28,920 --> 01:15:32,079
men taking it, and Bradley's he was stupefied by that.

1281
01:15:32,199 --> 01:15:33,640
He's like, well, what do you mean, you know, like

1282
01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:37,039
how you know I can say that, you know? Uh

1283
01:15:37,600 --> 01:15:42,159
and uh. And Eisenhower retorted with something like, well, as

1284
01:15:42,159 --> 01:15:44,560
a military objective, it's meaningless, you know what, what significance

1285
01:15:44,560 --> 01:15:48,920
does it hold? You know what? Bradley said, Well, you know,

1286
01:15:49,039 --> 01:15:53,439
in a few years, that's gonna be quite clear, you know.

1287
01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:57,159
And Malotov Uh, you know, the Soviet foreign minister, Old

1288
01:15:57,199 --> 01:15:59,920
Bolshevik that he was, like a lot of those guys,

1289
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:03,439
he actually had a pretty strong sense of geopolitics, and

1290
01:16:03,560 --> 01:16:05,720
he said, you know, what happens in Berlin decides the

1291
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:08,000
fate of Germany. What happens in Germany decides to fade

1292
01:16:08,000 --> 01:16:12,119
of Europe. So if you look at a map of

1293
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:15,680
I mean, I can't pull it up now, but those

1294
01:16:16,359 --> 01:16:19,760
who are inclined to do so. If you look at

1295
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:24,800
if you look at a map of divided Berlin, it's

1296
01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:32,279
strange because the Soviet sectors kind of bulges East Berlin

1297
01:16:32,800 --> 01:16:37,199
extended uh to Mitte, which was kind of the historical

1298
01:16:37,680 --> 01:16:40,399
core of the Berlin city center. That was like the

1299
01:16:40,479 --> 01:16:43,640
municipal like Hobb traditionally of Berlin. You know, that's where

1300
01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:46,319
city Hall was, you know, that's where Parliament was, That's

1301
01:16:46,319 --> 01:16:49,199
all these other traditional structures and administrations, the machinery and

1302
01:16:49,279 --> 01:16:51,920
the machinery of garment were. So it was obvious why

1303
01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:54,600
Stalin was making these demands. Okay, I mean it wasn't

1304
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:59,960
and it wasn't just for prestige or something. Rose elenal

1305
01:17:00,079 --> 01:17:04,000
problem with that. But Roosevelt also what he the only

1306
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:08,560
the only kind of signaling he'd given to uh Stalin

1307
01:17:10,079 --> 01:17:13,920
was that Tehran. And then before he died, apparently according

1308
01:17:13,920 --> 01:17:19,359
to people at Cordell Hull, he said, Roosevelt stated to

1309
01:17:19,520 --> 01:17:25,319
Stalin as well as to you know, his cabinet in

1310
01:17:25,359 --> 01:17:28,560
the Apartment of State and uh In Department of War,

1311
01:17:29,159 --> 01:17:31,760
that oh, well, you know, American forces, I can't see

1312
01:17:31,800 --> 01:17:34,119
them staying in Europe beyond two years? Why would they?

1313
01:17:34,840 --> 01:17:37,720
You know which I don't think you can chalk up

1314
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:41,279
to naivete because Roosevelt was uh Roosevelt is not naive,

1315
01:17:41,319 --> 01:17:44,239
whatever else we can say about him. And you know,

1316
01:17:44,439 --> 01:17:48,479
like we discussed in the you know earlier, we discussed

1317
01:17:48,479 --> 01:17:50,359
a couple of times even before we began a dedicated

1318
01:17:50,479 --> 01:17:54,520
series on the Cold War. You know, the New Dealer

1319
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:57,880
vision was, uh, you know, a con a permanent concord

1320
01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:00,199
between the United States and the Soviet Union with the

1321
01:18:00,319 --> 01:18:03,119
United Nations. That's kind of a world legislature, you know,

1322
01:18:03,159 --> 01:18:06,439
the Security Council being uh, I mean, ultimately this is

1323
01:18:06,439 --> 01:18:08,680
what what what what what developed? But this is what

1324
01:18:08,720 --> 01:18:11,119
they had in mind, you know, early on, even the

1325
01:18:11,159 --> 01:18:13,680
Security councilor it's equivalent being you know, kind of like

1326
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:16,039
the upper House, the General Assembly being the lower house,

1327
01:18:16,479 --> 01:18:19,439
you know, in America, having having a monopoly on atomic weapons,

1328
01:18:19,479 --> 01:18:21,600
you know, therefore, you know, being able to reign in

1329
01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:23,800
the Soviets when they were when there was policy disputes

1330
01:18:23,840 --> 01:18:28,840
out of governing the world. But even that, aside the UH,

1331
01:18:31,159 --> 01:18:36,319
there's no possible outcome where uh, where in neutral Germany

1332
01:18:36,439 --> 01:18:41,279
or a demilitarized Germany is tolerated. Okay, you know the

1333
01:18:41,479 --> 01:18:45,319
UH true Truman took Truman took the oth of office

1334
01:18:45,319 --> 01:18:50,960
with a hostile Congress, the UH. Even though even the

1335
01:18:51,039 --> 01:18:54,239
Republicans gutted as they were, the America First Movement had

1336
01:18:54,279 --> 01:18:56,479
been cast into disrepute, and some of these people had

1337
01:18:56,479 --> 01:18:59,800
actually been prosecuted and hounded and terrorized. Sounds kind of familiar.

1338
01:19:00,800 --> 01:19:03,319
But Robert Taff still made who remained like a strong

1339
01:19:03,439 --> 01:19:05,920
voice on Capitol Hill as kind of the you know,

1340
01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:09,000
the opposition, and even people who are interventionists, you know,

1341
01:19:09,039 --> 01:19:14,119
even like hawk as Republicans who who who are not isolationists,

1342
01:19:14,720 --> 01:19:17,560
you know, they were they were demanding essentially that you know,

1343
01:19:18,319 --> 01:19:20,840
Germany not be allowed to just fall into the Soviet

1344
01:19:20,880 --> 01:19:26,239
sphere of influence outright, So looking ahead, unless Roosevelt's plan

1345
01:19:26,439 --> 01:19:30,359
quite literally was a simply just seed Europe to the communists,

1346
01:19:32,199 --> 01:19:35,159
you can't really come to either conclusion, okay, and it's

1347
01:19:35,199 --> 01:19:37,560
not me just being like the famatory makes a minio

1348
01:19:37,560 --> 01:19:40,720
logical point, like what other conclusion can you come do?

1349
01:19:43,199 --> 01:19:46,600
You know? In one of the UH despite what despite

1350
01:19:46,600 --> 01:19:49,039
that kind of public face like pretty much everything and

1351
01:19:49,079 --> 01:19:50,800
well I'm gonna get into Berlin airlift in a minute,

1352
01:19:50,880 --> 01:19:53,760
and and what that signifies. But pretty much all the

1353
01:19:53,840 --> 01:20:02,159
negotiations with Stalin from UH from nineteen forty five onward

1354
01:20:03,439 --> 01:20:05,880
were or in basically bad faith about we're talking about

1355
01:20:05,880 --> 01:20:08,520
the stands in Germany because again, I mean, nobody was gonna,

1356
01:20:08,640 --> 01:20:12,640
no nobody in America, regardless of political strike, was going

1357
01:20:12,720 --> 01:20:15,800
to allow in neutral Germany, Okay, because that meant that

1358
01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:18,039
there's absolutely no point in fighting the Second World War,

1359
01:20:18,199 --> 01:20:19,840
and the Second Worlder should not have been fought. But

1360
01:20:19,840 --> 01:20:22,279
whether the strategic logic of the war planners in America,

1361
01:20:23,960 --> 01:20:28,800
at all costs journey must be prevented from capturing the East,

1362
01:20:29,199 --> 01:20:32,880
whether that's by a concord, a peaceable concord relatively between

1363
01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:35,680
Germany and the Soviet Union, whether it's by conquest, you know,

1364
01:20:35,720 --> 01:20:38,560
with Hitler at the helm. I mean today as we see,

1365
01:20:38,720 --> 01:20:40,600
I mean, what what that? This is what underlies the

1366
01:20:40,720 --> 01:20:45,399
Ukraine War? Is it not the fact that the fact

1367
01:20:45,439 --> 01:20:50,600
that the interdependence facilitated by from Merkle and mister Putin

1368
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:54,640
was not something that America is going to tolerate, because

1369
01:20:54,680 --> 01:20:57,279
that's the only way that Europe casts off the shackles

1370
01:20:57,359 --> 01:21:01,039
of America in the UK and becomes a super Okay,

1371
01:21:01,119 --> 01:21:04,960
So even no matter where anybody fell in the political spectrum,

1372
01:21:05,560 --> 01:21:09,039
you know, they were not just going to allow demilitarized Germany,

1373
01:21:09,880 --> 01:21:14,199
but wherein you know, just by accident geography and proximity,

1374
01:21:14,439 --> 01:21:16,600
they were going to be incorporated into the Soviet sphere

1375
01:21:16,600 --> 01:21:19,760
of influence in some basic way. So there's that. I

1376
01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:24,279
mean probably there's there's there's more there than then we

1377
01:21:24,359 --> 01:21:26,520
have time to cover right now. But I I think

1378
01:21:26,760 --> 01:21:29,439
that that it's not a mystery, but it is enigmatic

1379
01:21:29,560 --> 01:21:33,520
as to what exactly Roosevelt's intentions were, and especially when

1380
01:21:33,560 --> 01:21:36,000
considers too that I mean Roosevelt and knowing certain terms,

1381
01:21:36,079 --> 01:21:38,000
knew that he was not going to liver along. Okay,

1382
01:21:39,439 --> 01:21:42,680
So I what how how exactly saw the world developing

1383
01:21:42,720 --> 01:21:45,800
after he was gone? Is? UH? Is is an open

1384
01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:48,000
ended question. And again, I mean, Roosevelt was a lot

1385
01:21:48,039 --> 01:21:49,560
of things, but he was not Joe Biden. He was

1386
01:21:49,600 --> 01:21:53,039
not Senile Okay, any it was really wasn't until the

1387
01:21:53,039 --> 01:21:55,239
final months of his life, was really compromise, and he

1388
01:21:55,319 --> 01:21:59,039
wasn't really you know, running running the country or the

1389
01:21:59,119 --> 01:22:02,680
war and an executive capacity anyway. But it uh, But

1390
01:22:02,840 --> 01:22:08,560
back to back to UH, back to UH. The topic

1391
01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:13,319
at hand, what to give an idea of how kind

1392
01:22:13,359 --> 01:22:16,199
of slap dash for lack of a better word, the

1393
01:22:16,359 --> 01:22:21,039
led administration that divided Germany was there was AH, what

1394
01:22:21,159 --> 01:22:25,840
was emplement was called the Common Common to Tourah and UH.

1395
01:22:26,039 --> 01:22:30,439
It was representatives of the United States, the Soviet Union,

1396
01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:35,000
the UK, and France meeting in UH, this kind of

1397
01:22:35,039 --> 01:22:41,520
mini UH executive council, and they were supposed to come

1398
01:22:41,560 --> 01:22:43,279
to they were supposed to going to terms on how

1399
01:22:43,319 --> 01:22:46,039
Berlin was to be administered, you know, in Berlin being

1400
01:22:46,159 --> 01:22:50,039
you know, to Maladov's point, you know, Berlin being quite literally,

1401
01:22:50,159 --> 01:22:52,159
you know, the kind of heart and lungs of Germany

1402
01:22:52,680 --> 01:22:55,399
and Germany being you know, the the axial pivot of Europe.

1403
01:22:55,720 --> 01:22:58,239
The idea was, well, what's the sayings of Berlin has resolved,

1404
01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:00,880
you know, the UH, the state, the stands of Germany

1405
01:23:00,920 --> 01:23:02,840
proper will be resolved, and then you know that this

1406
01:23:03,039 --> 01:23:07,239
this will just be a you know, UH, a done deal,

1407
01:23:09,199 --> 01:23:14,319
which seems incredible. Anybody could entertain that possibility is anything realistic?

1408
01:23:16,239 --> 01:23:18,880
As time as time passed to be unclear that not

1409
01:23:19,039 --> 01:23:22,800
only did the Soviets have absolutely no intention of of

1410
01:23:23,039 --> 01:23:27,000
allowing a Western military presence in Berlin, but the Soviet

1411
01:23:27,079 --> 01:23:30,680
delegates UH. The Soviet delegate neither him nor any of

1412
01:23:30,760 --> 01:23:34,159
his UH nor any of his UH adjutants spoke English.

1413
01:23:34,840 --> 01:23:37,840
The American delegation nobody spoke Russian. You know, a couple

1414
01:23:37,880 --> 01:23:40,119
of people were like trying to communicate like pigeon French

1415
01:23:40,199 --> 01:23:42,359
kind of like across the aisle. Like this whole thing,

1416
01:23:42,760 --> 01:23:45,279
this whole thing was was a ridiculous charade, you know,

1417
01:23:45,439 --> 01:23:47,600
like the most petty issues that be debated for weeks

1418
01:23:47,760 --> 01:23:53,239
sometimes months. The uh, the Russians were demanding. UH, they

1419
01:23:53,479 --> 01:24:01,039
issued something and the sorry and the Sonian language is

1420
01:24:01,319 --> 01:24:05,399
not unintentional. They produced a document called the Fourteen Points,

1421
01:24:05,960 --> 01:24:08,800
which which basically demanded that in the Eastern sector of

1422
01:24:08,840 --> 01:24:11,279
Berlin there could be like no no quote profiteering at

1423
01:24:11,279 --> 01:24:13,600
the expensive workers and things like this, you know, like

1424
01:24:13,720 --> 01:24:18,000
it was. Uh, it's basically like a radical socialist manifesto

1425
01:24:18,159 --> 01:24:21,600
saying that you know, the the the only, the only,

1426
01:24:22,399 --> 01:24:27,199
the only legitimate capitol producer in in this arbitrarily designated

1427
01:24:27,199 --> 01:24:30,359
eastern sector in Germany, you know, was Moscow and nobody

1428
01:24:30,439 --> 01:24:38,079
else the UH And finally this carried on for a good,

1429
01:24:38,239 --> 01:24:43,640
uh close to two years, and UH finally UH a

1430
01:24:43,720 --> 01:24:47,199
clerical staff, some kind of skeleton crew remained at UH

1431
01:24:48,199 --> 01:24:51,760
at UH at the at these at these meetings, representing

1432
01:24:51,800 --> 01:24:54,640
the Soviet Union. But on by August first, nineteen forty eight,

1433
01:24:56,159 --> 01:25:00,960
some UH, some representatives U un ceremonious we removed the

1434
01:25:01,039 --> 01:25:04,039
Soviet flag, took all their files, clean up their offices,

1435
01:25:04,039 --> 01:25:06,279
and the Soviets has never returned. You know, they were

1436
01:25:06,560 --> 01:25:09,600
they they they essentially like it was basically like a

1437
01:25:09,680 --> 01:25:13,640
solid boycott that killed the enterprise because it had it

1438
01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:16,239
had no no, no even second reason, that forced a

1439
01:25:16,319 --> 01:25:21,199
law without all for resident of all four occupation states present,

1440
01:25:22,800 --> 01:25:25,439
what's more significant to show you kind of the the

1441
01:25:25,560 --> 01:25:31,600
dysfunctional state of East Germany. I've noticed that a lot

1442
01:25:31,640 --> 01:25:35,079
of people, I mean people, obviously, I'm talking about court historians. Okay,

1443
01:25:35,720 --> 01:25:38,800
they're obsessed with the personages of the Third Reich uh

1444
01:25:39,159 --> 01:25:42,000
generally because they want to cast on those cutitive like possible,

1445
01:25:42,399 --> 01:25:45,439
but even more sensible, even more sensible people, you know,

1446
01:25:45,479 --> 01:25:48,520
they fixate very much. And the individuals who constituted sort

1447
01:25:48,520 --> 01:25:50,720
of the control group of the party and of and

1448
01:25:50,840 --> 01:25:53,239
of the of the state. You don't find that a

1449
01:25:53,279 --> 01:25:56,039
lot with East Germany, Okay, Now, not in any sort

1450
01:25:56,039 --> 01:25:58,840
of the imagination suggesting that these men were nearly as

1451
01:25:58,880 --> 01:26:03,079
dynamic as those who constituted the the NSDAP or that

1452
01:26:03,399 --> 01:26:07,479
the DDR was you know, some some kind of you know,

1453
01:26:07,600 --> 01:26:13,520
independent power into itself, that they wielded any great authority

1454
01:26:13,720 --> 01:26:18,920
or power of projection capability. However, it was in fact

1455
01:26:19,000 --> 01:26:21,319
part of the German state. Okay, even if you don't

1456
01:26:21,479 --> 01:26:24,239
even if even if that is now people didn't recognize

1457
01:26:24,239 --> 01:26:29,359
its legitimacy as as a sovereign regime. It you know,

1458
01:26:29,479 --> 01:26:33,920
twenty million Germans lived there. Berlin was within its borders

1459
01:26:35,239 --> 01:26:37,079
and it was, uh, it was quite literally at the

1460
01:26:37,119 --> 01:26:44,279
front lines of of of the geostrategic divide for forty years. Now.

1461
01:26:44,600 --> 01:26:50,159
Who who came to run the d DR? Well, the

1462
01:26:50,279 --> 01:26:56,039
Soviets tapped h Walter Ubert. Walter Ubercht was even an

1463
01:26:56,079 --> 01:27:00,239
exiled member of the KPD. You know, he'd been uh,

1464
01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:03,840
even an active revolutionary in the Weimar years, you know,

1465
01:27:03,960 --> 01:27:07,960
into the UH into the years of the the Third Reich,

1466
01:27:08,479 --> 01:27:10,720
and like a lot of communists, you know, he he

1467
01:27:10,840 --> 01:27:14,680
realized that he was gonna be prosecuted and imprisoned if not,

1468
01:27:15,640 --> 01:27:17,720
if not shot, and he fled to the Soviet Union.

1469
01:27:20,119 --> 01:27:23,960
Ulbrich was deployed to Berlin before the cessation of hostilities.

1470
01:27:24,000 --> 01:27:26,600
He arrived in April thirtieth what was called the Ulberton Group.

1471
01:27:27,079 --> 01:27:31,520
There are various various functionaries, uh, prisoners, anti fascist prisoners

1472
01:27:31,560 --> 01:27:35,920
of war, you know, various guys like Ulbert himself, who

1473
01:27:36,319 --> 01:27:38,560
whould fought for the Reds in Spain and then UH

1474
01:27:39,079 --> 01:27:42,840
and then and then found amnesty and in in the

1475
01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:45,640
Soviet Union after the ascendancy of the n sd A P.

1476
01:27:47,199 --> 01:27:49,439
But these guys uh and and all and and all

1477
01:27:49,640 --> 01:27:52,239
and there there was what was called the Akerman group

1478
01:27:52,399 --> 01:27:54,560
who was deployed to Sacks and the Eve, the Sabatka group,

1479
01:27:54,680 --> 01:27:58,640
two to UH to Mechlenberg, you know, all named after

1480
01:27:58,720 --> 01:28:02,000
their their cadre leader, you know. And Anton Akerman of

1481
01:28:02,199 --> 01:28:05,119
the sonianed Akerman group, he was part of the he

1482
01:28:05,319 --> 01:28:08,439
the functionary of the communist youth movement in Germany in

1483
01:28:08,560 --> 01:28:11,920
the twenties, you know. Then he joined the KPD. H

1484
01:28:12,399 --> 01:28:14,479
he was sentenced to death in absentia, you know, and

1485
01:28:14,760 --> 01:28:17,359
after nineteen thirty three. Like these guys are basically the

1486
01:28:17,399 --> 01:28:20,920
whole post war coterie of Germany. They were the old

1487
01:28:20,960 --> 01:28:25,840
like KPD control group. So that meant that, you know,

1488
01:28:25,920 --> 01:28:28,399
not only they've they've been they've been gone for ten

1489
01:28:28,720 --> 01:28:31,680
sometimes twenty years. They hadn't been they hadn't been a home,

1490
01:28:32,319 --> 01:28:34,840
you know, so they were it's not like they had

1491
01:28:35,000 --> 01:28:37,239
UH cadres and being on the ground, I mean even

1492
01:28:37,279 --> 01:28:39,399
among the Communis who stayed behind. You know, people were like,

1493
01:28:39,439 --> 01:28:41,439
who the hell are these guys? You know, they had

1494
01:28:41,560 --> 01:28:45,319
no they had no real mandate from people. Okay, I

1495
01:28:45,359 --> 01:28:47,600
mean arguably, you know, when you're under occupation by the

1496
01:28:47,640 --> 01:28:51,359
Soviet Union, it can't be said that any kind of

1497
01:28:51,439 --> 01:28:55,399
genuine expression of popular will is possible. But this was

1498
01:28:55,520 --> 01:29:01,960
especially contrived. And famously when Lubrick derived, you know, everybody

1499
01:29:02,039 --> 01:29:04,359
knew who he was, you know, because he he was uh,

1500
01:29:05,560 --> 01:29:08,960
you know, he he arrived in in you know, in

1501
01:29:09,119 --> 01:29:11,800
uh in what had been East Prussia initially you have

1502
01:29:11,880 --> 01:29:13,840
to have been you know, like liberated by the Soviets,

1503
01:29:14,439 --> 01:29:16,520
and uh there were Germans who were some of communist

1504
01:29:16,520 --> 01:29:18,399
sympathetic who said, oh, you have no idea like what

1505
01:29:18,479 --> 01:29:20,079
they're doing to us, meaning the Red Army. You know,

1506
01:29:20,159 --> 01:29:22,600
this this this rape and this and this, this pillage

1507
01:29:22,640 --> 01:29:25,199
and this destruction, you know, And Ubert said, uh, you

1508
01:29:25,279 --> 01:29:27,600
know that that's fascist propaganda. I don't believe that. You know,

1509
01:29:27,600 --> 01:29:29,520
if you utter that again, I'll have you shot. You know,

1510
01:29:29,640 --> 01:29:31,439
people were like, who the hell is this guy? You

1511
01:29:31,560 --> 01:29:34,880
know what I mean, like he they uh so even

1512
01:29:34,920 --> 01:29:37,640
what I'm getting at is that even even he consider

1513
01:29:37,720 --> 01:29:41,239
that people were not enthusiastic about you know, the KPD

1514
01:29:41,479 --> 01:29:45,960
or its legacy party coming to coming to dominate the

1515
01:29:45,960 --> 01:29:51,119
state apparatus ubric teddy unique like lack of of credibility.

1516
01:29:51,359 --> 01:29:52,920
You know, they might as well have just deployed you know,

1517
01:29:53,079 --> 01:29:58,359
some some some Russian apparatchick from uh from Moscow or

1518
01:29:58,399 --> 01:30:01,600
from or from at Vostok, you know, like what what

1519
01:30:01,840 --> 01:30:06,520
what was even the point? But I believe, in my opinion, uh,

1520
01:30:07,239 --> 01:30:09,479
it was basically for the benefit of the outside world.

1521
01:30:09,800 --> 01:30:11,399
Like they were saying like, hey, look, you know we're

1522
01:30:11,560 --> 01:30:13,319
we're not We're not afraid of Germans having, you know,

1523
01:30:13,359 --> 01:30:16,199
sovereignty over the run affairs like mister Ubrich is you know,

1524
01:30:16,239 --> 01:30:18,600
he's a German national, you know, so z Ackerman or

1525
01:30:19,079 --> 01:30:22,399
I believe that's what it was all about. And uh,

1526
01:30:23,119 --> 01:30:25,399
I mean the stories never would have trusted a genuine

1527
01:30:25,520 --> 01:30:29,359
uh yeah, I mean even a genuine like radical socialist

1528
01:30:29,439 --> 01:30:33,079
movement that was truly indigenous to Germany like that the

1529
01:30:33,199 --> 01:30:36,119
war had changed all that. But I people are often

1530
01:30:36,560 --> 01:30:38,880
they often say like, you know, how can they how

1531
01:30:38,960 --> 01:30:40,800
could the uh how cold the Soviets think that the

1532
01:30:40,800 --> 01:30:43,600
people just spotted the s c D. You know, it's like, well,

1533
01:30:43,640 --> 01:30:45,000
I I don't, I don't. I don't think that was

1534
01:30:45,039 --> 01:30:46,680
the point. I think the point was, you know, they

1535
01:30:47,439 --> 01:30:48,840
it was, it was it was a kind of it

1536
01:30:48,920 --> 01:30:52,439
was a kind of alibi when the eviction was raised

1537
01:30:52,479 --> 01:30:54,960
that you know this, this was nothing but a hostile

1538
01:30:54,960 --> 01:30:59,439
occupation and all but name. But in any event, and

1539
01:30:59,479 --> 01:31:01,359
then when I say the se D the in the

1540
01:31:01,479 --> 01:31:04,119
in the in the in the Soviet occupation sector, there

1541
01:31:04,199 --> 01:31:09,079
was U. The KPD, UH declared uh E merged with

1542
01:31:09,119 --> 01:31:12,720
the Social Democrats and became the Party of Socialist Unity. Okay,

1543
01:31:12,760 --> 01:31:14,279
the real party of the d d R was not

1544
01:31:14,399 --> 01:31:16,520
the KPD, it was the s D. Okay, just for

1545
01:31:17,119 --> 01:31:22,760
reference sake. But as this UH, as this was developing,

1546
01:31:25,600 --> 01:31:28,840
there was UH in in the west, there was there

1547
01:31:28,880 --> 01:31:32,840
was not a clear kind of policy trajectory. Now enter

1548
01:31:34,039 --> 01:31:39,039
entered George Kennon. Kennon was the He was the de

1549
01:31:39,159 --> 01:31:43,319
facto ambassador to the Soviet Union. He was actually the

1550
01:31:43,479 --> 01:31:46,279
charge of the affairs. Okay, but I mean, for all

1551
01:31:46,319 --> 01:31:51,880
pradical purposes, he was the ambassador. You know what Kennon's uh.

1552
01:31:52,720 --> 01:31:55,479
What Kennon's not known for is UH is is the

1553
01:31:55,600 --> 01:32:01,800
long the long memo Okay, there was so so named

1554
01:32:01,840 --> 01:32:04,239
because it was the longest State Department dispatcher ever said

1555
01:32:04,279 --> 01:32:08,119
by telegram. It was all over five thousand words, the

1556
01:32:08,199 --> 01:32:12,520
Long Telegram, not the Long Memo. I find this to

1557
01:32:12,600 --> 01:32:17,560
be the most mischaracterized document or statement of the Cold War,

1558
01:32:18,000 --> 01:32:22,039
save maybe for Cruisehip's quote secret speech. Okay, the term

1559
01:32:22,159 --> 01:32:25,439
containment was, yes, it was coined by this telegram, but

1560
01:32:26,079 --> 01:32:29,479
uh Kenan was not calling for some kind of hawkish

1561
01:32:29,720 --> 01:32:34,319
military resistance to the Soviet Union. Like Kenyon was profoundly

1562
01:32:34,359 --> 01:32:36,920
an a communist, he was horrified by the Soviet Union,

1563
01:32:38,159 --> 01:32:39,720
but he was not a military man, and he was

1564
01:32:39,760 --> 01:32:45,079
not proposing any kind of military doctrine what he When

1565
01:32:45,159 --> 01:32:47,960
the Long Telegram was expanded to an essay length, it

1566
01:32:48,039 --> 01:32:50,319
appeared in Foreign Affairs, which at one time was a

1567
01:32:50,359 --> 01:32:52,760
great periodical. I've not looked at it in years. I

1568
01:32:52,840 --> 01:32:55,319
assume it's kind of woke and silly like everything else,

1569
01:32:55,680 --> 01:32:58,319
or it's full of crazy people want to like attack

1570
01:32:58,399 --> 01:33:01,359
everybody on this planet for no reason. But at one

1571
01:33:01,439 --> 01:33:03,880
time it was it was. It was not just a

1572
01:33:03,960 --> 01:33:05,800
lot of prestige behind it, but it had real cachet

1573
01:33:05,880 --> 01:33:10,279
because it was very serious. But the actual title of

1574
01:33:11,039 --> 01:33:16,199
the long Telegram expanded to proper pay per form with

1575
01:33:16,319 --> 01:33:19,399
sources of Soviet conduct, And that's exactly what it was about.

1576
01:33:20,319 --> 01:33:22,439
Ken It was a rare kind of occidental man. And

1577
01:33:22,680 --> 01:33:24,479
I'm not trying to be offensive or say bad things

1578
01:33:24,479 --> 01:33:28,600
are Russian people, but they're very different. Okay, They're very

1579
01:33:28,640 --> 01:33:32,640
different than the West. Even the best of times, even

1580
01:33:32,640 --> 01:33:35,159
when they had a more normal government, it was difficult

1581
01:33:35,199 --> 01:33:38,520
to decipher their intentions. And there was not just linguistic barriers.

1582
01:33:38,640 --> 01:33:42,840
There's there's cultural barriers that relate to symbolic psychology and

1583
01:33:42,960 --> 01:33:49,680
historical experience and all kinds of other things. But Kennon's

1584
01:33:50,359 --> 01:33:53,239
enterprise was, I've got to try to make the Department

1585
01:33:53,279 --> 01:33:57,399
of Stay in the Department of War, and more importantly,

1586
01:33:57,439 --> 01:34:02,000
mister Truman understand the world to the Soviets eyes. Now,

1587
01:34:03,840 --> 01:34:06,960
kenn said that, uh, there's not gonna there's never there's

1588
01:34:07,119 --> 01:34:08,439
no one. You're not gonna be able to come to

1589
01:34:08,720 --> 01:34:11,279
come to terms with the Soviet Union, Okay, he said,

1590
01:34:11,359 --> 01:34:12,880
you so get that out of your head right away.

1591
01:34:12,960 --> 01:34:14,800
In policy terms, he said, the Soviets are never going

1592
01:34:14,840 --> 01:34:16,840
to give you what you what what you want. They're

1593
01:34:16,880 --> 01:34:19,800
not gonna either They're they're not gonna abide Roosevelt's vision

1594
01:34:19,880 --> 01:34:21,880
of you know, ruling the world with Uncle Sam as

1595
01:34:21,880 --> 01:34:25,079
a junior partner. They're they're not gonna accept the United

1596
01:34:25,119 --> 01:34:28,560
States has a benign influence in Europe. You know, they're

1597
01:34:28,600 --> 01:34:31,520
not They're not gonna view, uh, any of America's move

1598
01:34:31,800 --> 01:34:33,960
outside the out of side of its immediate sphere of

1599
01:34:34,039 --> 01:34:38,560
influences is legitimate, and that owes to a few things.

1600
01:34:38,600 --> 01:34:40,600
It was the It was that it was the Russian

1601
01:34:41,199 --> 01:34:45,600
traditional Russian fixation on security, and in very basic terms,

1602
01:34:45,880 --> 01:34:48,800
the Russians need defense in depth, and Russia is a

1603
01:34:48,840 --> 01:34:51,560
state that is in a nation that is constantly attacked

1604
01:34:51,560 --> 01:34:55,600
by its enemies. So there's that. Now you add to

1605
01:34:55,680 --> 01:35:01,920
that the overlay of Marcist Leninist city ology, which at

1606
01:35:01,960 --> 01:35:04,920
that time it's still very much was still very much

1607
01:35:04,960 --> 01:35:07,920
interstitially bound up with kind of the Russian political mind.

1608
01:35:09,800 --> 01:35:12,920
They've viewed the United States is not much different than

1609
01:35:13,000 --> 01:35:14,680
the Third Reich, and they've give the third right because

1610
01:35:14,680 --> 01:35:16,520
that is still doesn'ts of evil and the view the

1611
01:35:16,560 --> 01:35:20,039
United States and the UK as capitalist states and crisis

1612
01:35:20,640 --> 01:35:24,159
who at all costs are gonna pursue an adversarial pass

1613
01:35:24,279 --> 01:35:27,159
with the Soviet Union, because the only way capitalist states

1614
01:35:27,199 --> 01:35:30,239
can keep from cannibalizing one another is to find an

1615
01:35:30,359 --> 01:35:33,760
enemy from without. Okay, now this is boiler plate Leninism,

1616
01:35:33,920 --> 01:35:37,520
but the Soviets that actually believe that, and kend Of

1617
01:35:37,600 --> 01:35:40,119
made the point that, you know, unlike in the United States,

1618
01:35:40,199 --> 01:35:44,119
unlike in the UK, you know, where political discourse is

1619
01:35:44,159 --> 01:35:45,880
kind of this, it is almost kind of this. It's

1620
01:35:45,880 --> 01:35:49,720
almost kind of like play acting in the Soviet. Soviet

1621
01:35:49,800 --> 01:35:52,239
leaders like when they say things, they actually mean exactly

1622
01:35:52,279 --> 01:35:54,439
what they say, even if it sounds crazy. The Soviet

1623
01:35:54,479 --> 01:35:57,600
Union is not an able transparent but the official statements

1624
01:35:57,640 --> 01:36:00,920
coming from the Kremlin are actually exactly what the and

1625
01:36:01,000 --> 01:36:03,560
you can extrapolate that to today when the Russian government

1626
01:36:03,600 --> 01:36:07,560
is is a formal statement that's actually exactly what they mean. Now,

1627
01:36:07,680 --> 01:36:10,760
don't get me wrong. The Kremlin then is now is

1628
01:36:10,800 --> 01:36:16,840
literally byzantine. Russian political culture is totally opig is massively conspiratorial. Uh,

1629
01:36:17,159 --> 01:36:20,399
it's all screwed up. But you don't have like weird actors,

1630
01:36:21,319 --> 01:36:24,520
you know, just kind of saying things in Russian political

1631
01:36:24,600 --> 01:36:27,000
life like you do in the West. It's totally different.

1632
01:36:27,479 --> 01:36:30,079
And obviously American political culture then was not nearly as

1633
01:36:30,119 --> 01:36:33,279
degenerate as now, but there was some of that. And

1634
01:36:33,439 --> 01:36:38,199
this was a very important point. And so Kennon's point

1635
01:36:38,479 --> 01:36:43,399
was what he meant by containment is this, he said,

1636
01:36:44,760 --> 01:36:46,479
the way the world's gonna be ordered, the way this

1637
01:36:46,640 --> 01:36:49,880
entire planet, the fate of this entire planet, quite literally

1638
01:36:49,960 --> 01:36:53,840
in political and structural terms, political structural terms and sociological ones,

1639
01:36:54,439 --> 01:36:56,520
it's going to be decided by who can win over

1640
01:36:56,600 --> 01:36:59,840
the developing world and the Third World and the Soviet

1641
01:36:59,840 --> 01:37:02,359
you mean, Kennon pointed out, has a lot of cachet

1642
01:37:02,439 --> 01:37:04,840
there because the third world is full of people who

1643
01:37:04,880 --> 01:37:07,399
are already kind of radicalized. They've not had a good

1644
01:37:07,399 --> 01:37:10,840
experience with the white Western world. Part of that is

1645
01:37:10,840 --> 01:37:13,680
the scapegoating. Part of that is, you know, just kind

1646
01:37:13,680 --> 01:37:17,359
of the tragedy of when traditional societies, especially primitive ones,

1647
01:37:17,359 --> 01:37:19,319
and again I'm not saying that cunitively, that's just an

1648
01:37:19,359 --> 01:37:22,600
accurate assessment, you know, collide with modernity, you know, and

1649
01:37:22,720 --> 01:37:25,520
the UH and UH and the double edged sort of technology,

1650
01:37:25,920 --> 01:37:28,159
you know, and you know, the quote unquote what weav

1651
01:37:28,319 --> 01:37:30,760
was progress, but what they view as you know, very

1652
01:37:30,840 --> 01:37:37,319
very traumatic UH processes and beyond that, the uh just

1653
01:37:37,399 --> 01:37:40,880
within you know we we we even in the nineteen fifties,

1654
01:37:41,000 --> 01:37:43,840
you know, uh, people in America had come to look

1655
01:37:43,880 --> 01:37:47,640
at Bolshevism and and Marxist Leninism outside of you know,

1656
01:37:47,720 --> 01:37:50,039
academic corners and things like the Man in the Street

1657
01:37:50,239 --> 01:37:52,479
used as something that did not really deliver and if

1658
01:37:52,560 --> 01:37:55,520
uned as basically alien and those of the interviewers basically alien,

1659
01:37:55,640 --> 01:37:58,039
uned as something that you know, was was was not

1660
01:37:58,560 --> 01:38:01,119
was not it's not animated him towards you know, some

1661
01:38:01,279 --> 01:38:05,359
kind of impassionate defense of the ideology. Okay, but in

1662
01:38:05,439 --> 01:38:07,479
the Third World that was not the case at all.

1663
01:38:07,640 --> 01:38:09,800
I mean really until the eighties, Marcus Lennon hasn't had

1664
01:38:09,840 --> 01:38:11,880
great cache in the Third World. And if you want

1665
01:38:11,880 --> 01:38:14,199
to understand the Cold War and White endored for so

1666
01:38:14,319 --> 01:38:17,439
long that is why, okay, I mean long after there

1667
01:38:17,520 --> 01:38:19,840
was any kind of risk of you know, France, uh,

1668
01:38:20,279 --> 01:38:21,880
you know, people in France going to the polls and

1669
01:38:21,960 --> 01:38:25,079
voting in some Stalinist party. So long after you know,

1670
01:38:25,159 --> 01:38:28,159
Gus Fall and his friends said any any chance of

1671
01:38:28,239 --> 01:38:30,840
turning you know, the teamsers unied into a some kind

1672
01:38:30,840 --> 01:38:34,760
of Communist client, you know. Uh, in in places like Angola,

1673
01:38:35,319 --> 01:38:39,039
you know, places like Nicaragua, in places uh, in places

1674
01:38:39,119 --> 01:38:41,600
you know, like Indonesia, there was there was still cachet

1675
01:38:41,680 --> 01:38:47,399
who communism. Okay, So Kenn said, UH, there's got to

1676
01:38:47,399 --> 01:38:53,560
be a broad spectrum uh attack on communism, particularly uh,

1677
01:38:54,439 --> 01:38:57,720
you know, in terms of UH, in terms of suaging

1678
01:38:57,720 --> 01:39:01,399
anxieties about uh the development model of the West. You know,

1679
01:39:01,479 --> 01:39:05,920
that means not disturbing and upsetting uh indigenous cultures where

1680
01:39:05,920 --> 01:39:08,800
it's not essential to do so in order to uh,

1681
01:39:09,439 --> 01:39:11,359
in order to create a political culture that you know

1682
01:39:11,560 --> 01:39:15,600
is suitable for American goals. You know that means that

1683
01:39:16,159 --> 01:39:19,600
you know, not over reliance on on the military aspect

1684
01:39:19,680 --> 01:39:24,560
of competition, but you know, demonstrating uh, demonstrating uh American

1685
01:39:24,640 --> 01:39:29,640
systemic superiority that we can see you away, you know, scientifically, culturally, technologically,

1686
01:39:31,520 --> 01:39:33,960
you know, uh, in the arts, like all all of

1687
01:39:34,000 --> 01:39:39,520
these things. Unfortunately, the people are selective in especially in

1688
01:39:39,600 --> 01:39:42,560
policy terms, and what they what they take from UH

1689
01:39:45,479 --> 01:39:48,880
these kinds of broad based position statements of of inspired

1690
01:39:48,920 --> 01:39:53,000
people like Kenon. So the way people read uh the

1691
01:39:53,119 --> 01:39:56,199
Kenon uh the Long Telegram and the Canon memo is oh,

1692
01:39:56,359 --> 01:39:59,239
we've we've we've got to challenge the Soviet Union militarily

1693
01:39:59,279 --> 01:40:01,920
at all costs. Uh, basically like in every theater where

1694
01:40:02,000 --> 01:40:07,359
where they assert themselves and that uh and then that

1695
01:40:07,640 --> 01:40:09,520
and thus Kennon and that this was this was the

1696
01:40:09,600 --> 01:40:12,039
bane of his existence for his whole life. And he

1697
01:40:12,119 --> 01:40:15,520
made that clear, uh decade after decade that he was

1698
01:40:15,600 --> 01:40:18,600
called the quote father of containment. But at the event,

1699
01:40:20,640 --> 01:40:23,720
regardless of the fact that Kennon did not appreciate being

1700
01:40:23,760 --> 01:40:25,359
forced to go to the court of public opinion to

1701
01:40:25,439 --> 01:40:29,199
co sign, you know, what became containment as policy with

1702
01:40:29,399 --> 01:40:34,279
what was fleshed out in his in his position paper. Uh.

1703
01:40:35,159 --> 01:40:38,560
You know, Truman had a problem because Truman was facing

1704
01:40:38,600 --> 01:40:42,000
an increasingly aggressive Soviet Union that was quite clearly doing

1705
01:40:42,039 --> 01:40:46,439
everything that could to lock uh the West out of

1706
01:40:46,479 --> 01:40:49,920
Berlin and ultimately locked the West out of Germany at all.

1707
01:40:50,720 --> 01:40:53,720
And as we said, he had a hostile Congress. Already

1708
01:40:54,039 --> 01:40:56,159
people had become very, very soured on the idea of

1709
01:40:56,159 --> 01:40:58,880
the Soviet Union, not just as an ally but as

1710
01:40:58,880 --> 01:41:03,800
a benign influence in the world. And furthermore, you know,

1711
01:41:04,199 --> 01:41:07,039
one of the things we were speaking of Tehran, uh,

1712
01:41:07,840 --> 01:41:11,640
the Tehran's Summit, not not fleshing out what the status

1713
01:41:11,720 --> 01:41:14,199
of Berlin and the status that German Germany would be

1714
01:41:14,239 --> 01:41:17,880
moving forward. It didn't indicate anything as to how, what

1715
01:41:18,039 --> 01:41:19,920
what what would become of the world where you know,

1716
01:41:20,560 --> 01:41:25,079
the UK is simply you know, UH just simply declared

1717
01:41:25,119 --> 01:41:27,000
these people in the dominions to have like, you know,

1718
01:41:27,119 --> 01:41:30,079
to to have like rights of British citizenship now, you know,

1719
01:41:30,159 --> 01:41:32,640
and like these these these territories in Africa you know

1720
01:41:32,720 --> 01:41:35,439
that were being that were they were being seated to

1721
01:41:35,520 --> 01:41:39,279
indigenous rule and divested from you know, from the from

1722
01:41:39,319 --> 01:41:41,520
the French and from the Belgians. You know, like what

1723
01:41:42,119 --> 01:41:44,399
like what how do we manage these places? You know,

1724
01:41:44,479 --> 01:41:46,800
like what moving forward? Like you know, who's going to

1725
01:41:46,840 --> 01:41:49,119
take the lead here? You know, is is it going

1726
01:41:49,159 --> 01:41:51,000
to be you know, is it gonna be under some

1727
01:41:51,119 --> 01:41:52,920
kind of like u N jurisdiction? Is it going to

1728
01:41:52,960 --> 01:41:56,359
be under the jurisdiction of the former colonial authority? You know,

1729
01:41:56,479 --> 01:42:00,479
this was not clear and this caused huge problems and

1730
01:42:00,880 --> 01:42:04,359
it led to UH. It led to UH and what

1731
01:42:04,479 --> 01:42:07,279
I considered to being one of the first UH active

1732
01:42:07,399 --> 01:42:11,279
crisis of the Cold War. One of the many horrible

1733
01:42:11,359 --> 01:42:14,159
things UH we can say about Churchill and they are

1734
01:42:14,199 --> 01:42:19,079
many you know that trying to resort diperbole as it

1735
01:42:19,159 --> 01:42:23,159
became clear posti alta in Churchill's mind that the United

1736
01:42:23,159 --> 01:42:26,239
States was not gonna do anything to preserve the British Empire,

1737
01:42:26,640 --> 01:42:29,359
like why why it goes to show you the man's

1738
01:42:29,399 --> 01:42:32,000
fundamental lack of understanding under the character of Roosevelt, but

1739
01:42:32,079 --> 01:42:36,479
of you know, the emerging kind of geopolitical culture of

1740
01:42:36,720 --> 01:42:41,880
uh of the epoch. Turchile hascided that something had to

1741
01:42:41,920 --> 01:42:45,840
be done to guard the UK's fledging interest in the Mediterranean.

1742
01:42:46,800 --> 01:42:52,640
So he approached Stalin and Molotov without Roosevelt's knowledge, and

1743
01:42:52,720 --> 01:42:55,760
he drafted this is an absurd document what was called

1744
01:42:55,800 --> 01:42:59,560
the Percentages Agreement, quite literally, where he wrote out what

1745
01:42:59,720 --> 01:43:03,800
percentage of influence the Soviet Union be allowed and the

1746
01:43:03,920 --> 01:43:06,880
UK would be allowed, and he territories the Mediterranean like

1747
01:43:07,000 --> 01:43:09,760
literally writing, well, the you know, the US is organ

1748
01:43:09,960 --> 01:43:13,760
ten percent influence in Greece and London hast of ninety percent,

1749
01:43:14,319 --> 01:43:16,439
Like how any rational person I think that's the way

1750
01:43:16,479 --> 01:43:19,039
fear of influence works, And what the hell is ninety

1751
01:43:19,119 --> 01:43:22,479
percent influence in our political terms? The whole thing is absurd,

1752
01:43:23,439 --> 01:43:28,000
it's it's crazy it's literally crazy. But Greece was the

1753
01:43:28,079 --> 01:43:32,840
first state post war really when the Germans withdrew from

1754
01:43:32,880 --> 01:43:37,760
Greece and forty four a communist insurgency jumped off. And

1755
01:43:37,840 --> 01:43:39,920
it was very complicated like who the players wore and

1756
01:43:39,960 --> 01:43:44,520
everything like that, but it was the UK deployed to

1757
01:43:44,640 --> 01:43:51,359
prevent a communists takeover. People sympathetic to the communists. They

1758
01:43:51,479 --> 01:43:53,840
you referred to it as the second White Terror in Greece.

1759
01:43:54,600 --> 01:43:57,680
There's a lot of mercenary action there. It was. It

1760
01:43:57,760 --> 01:44:00,359
was actually a very it was a bloody conflict, okay,

1761
01:44:00,479 --> 01:44:03,840
but the uh but the point is that, uh, you know,

1762
01:44:04,000 --> 01:44:06,119
this is also what later led you know, a decade

1763
01:44:06,119 --> 01:44:09,199
subsequent to the Suez Crisis or and that led Eisenhower

1764
01:44:09,239 --> 01:44:12,399
to kind of you know declaring uh a status of

1765
01:44:12,560 --> 01:44:15,920
uh of of relations for the Middle East, you know,

1766
01:44:16,000 --> 01:44:18,319
and shutting uh, shutting the French, the French and the

1767
01:44:18,439 --> 01:44:20,640
UK out of it permanently. And in those days too,

1768
01:44:20,720 --> 01:44:22,479
Eisenow was the last president. It wasn't all the old

1769
01:44:22,520 --> 01:44:27,560
and as this issue. But at any event, you know,

1770
01:44:27,680 --> 01:44:32,520
there was not uh what what whatever Truman thought about containment,

1771
01:44:32,880 --> 01:44:35,479
you know, however hawkish or conciliatory, he felt about the

1772
01:44:35,479 --> 01:44:39,119
Soviet Union. If he wanted to continue as president, he's

1773
01:44:39,159 --> 01:44:41,960
gonna have to take some gonna firm line, at least

1774
01:44:41,960 --> 01:44:44,199
what appeared to be such. He's gonna have to articulate

1775
01:44:44,239 --> 01:44:47,560
some kind of policy and make clear, you know what,

1776
01:44:48,319 --> 01:44:51,720
what the conflict diets were, that if the Soviets traversed them,

1777
01:44:53,039 --> 01:44:56,279
there would inevitably be war. And uh, a lot of that.

1778
01:44:56,720 --> 01:44:59,800
It was the experience of Korea and how NATO was formed.

1779
01:45:00,359 --> 01:45:02,279
And the next episode is gonna be the Native episode,

1780
01:45:02,279 --> 01:45:05,600
and it's hugely important, especially today. But I don't want

1781
01:45:05,680 --> 01:45:14,319
to jump into that now, but to continue the uh,

1782
01:45:16,880 --> 01:45:21,880
the the real kind of key incident, in my opinion,

1783
01:45:22,119 --> 01:45:25,560
or like a series of events, what started the Cold Wars.

1784
01:45:25,560 --> 01:45:29,520
The Berlin Blockade. Okay, and as as people probably imagine,

1785
01:45:29,560 --> 01:45:31,319
even people who you know don't reel out of the

1786
01:45:31,359 --> 01:45:36,439
Cold War, you know, West Berlin was one hundred and

1787
01:45:36,560 --> 01:45:41,800
ten miles into the Soviet occupation sector. Okay, it was.

1788
01:45:42,000 --> 01:45:45,199
It was. The entirety of Berlin was in with the game,

1789
01:45:45,239 --> 01:45:49,079
the DDR and the western half. The only way you

1790
01:45:49,119 --> 01:45:54,399
could access it civilian or military vehicles was by dedicated

1791
01:45:54,520 --> 01:45:57,920
access routes. There's roads for the duration of the Cold

1792
01:45:57,960 --> 01:46:02,920
War that were literally dedicated access routes for like US

1793
01:46:03,039 --> 01:46:06,720
military and civilian uh and West European traffic, you know,

1794
01:46:06,840 --> 01:46:08,800
to pass through the d d R, you know, to

1795
01:46:08,840 --> 01:46:11,319
reach West Berlin and then to return the dedicated access

1796
01:46:11,479 --> 01:46:16,640
road and that was the only traffic permitted there. And

1797
01:46:16,720 --> 01:46:18,920
that was the case early on. I mean they they

1798
01:46:19,279 --> 01:46:21,840
these routes were later you know, on a formalized like

1799
01:46:21,880 --> 01:46:25,159
structurally as a matter of law, but uh, it was uh,

1800
01:46:25,920 --> 01:46:30,239
the the Soviets weren't weren't simply allowing uh you know

1801
01:46:30,399 --> 01:46:36,239
open uh aggress and egress of Americans and British and

1802
01:46:36,279 --> 01:46:38,880
French civilian or military in and out of West Berlin.

1803
01:46:40,399 --> 01:46:46,279
But they weren't. They they did not outright blackaded it before.

1804
01:46:47,119 --> 01:46:49,159
But what was kind of the straw that broke the

1805
01:46:49,239 --> 01:46:54,039
camel's back was uh the uh as the United States

1806
01:46:54,199 --> 01:46:59,840
uh as uh as like as a true economic policy

1807
01:47:00,119 --> 01:47:02,079
kind of took shape, I mean just not a necessity.

1808
01:47:02,199 --> 01:47:05,119
I mean, this just proceeded, you know, a formal political

1809
01:47:05,239 --> 01:47:10,399
uh outlook, let alone policy on West Berlin. But uh,

1810
01:47:10,560 --> 01:47:12,840
I mean the economy had to rebuild because people, i mean,

1811
01:47:13,800 --> 01:47:18,359
their infrastructure was destroyed. You know people, people weren't being

1812
01:47:18,439 --> 01:47:25,600
fed what and it became, uh, it became imperative. First

1813
01:47:25,600 --> 01:47:30,920
and foremost introduced a viable currency, so the uh, the

1814
01:47:31,039 --> 01:47:34,920
United States introduced the Deutsche mark, which is interesting because

1815
01:47:34,960 --> 01:47:36,680
it's interesting, I mean, like a lot of people think

1816
01:47:36,720 --> 01:47:38,279
of the deutsch mark because I mean the deutsch park

1817
01:47:38,399 --> 01:47:41,399
was I mean the strongest currency in Europe and which

1818
01:47:41,720 --> 01:47:43,720
I saw him. I'm taking them engagement the other day.

1819
01:47:44,239 --> 01:47:47,880
You know, the Germans didn't sign the Matric Treaty because

1820
01:47:47,880 --> 01:47:49,399
they wanted to get off the deutsch Mark. It was

1821
01:47:49,439 --> 01:47:53,800
owing to political pressures and other things. But people have

1822
01:47:53,880 --> 01:47:56,600
an idea of it. It's just kind of us like

1823
01:47:58,000 --> 01:48:00,520
it's kindrad Aden now where you know, and and like

1824
01:48:00,640 --> 01:48:03,600
the and like the Buddhist Republic, like Deutsche Bank or whatever.

1825
01:48:04,279 --> 01:48:06,920
Just uh just saying like, okay, this is a successor

1826
01:48:07,000 --> 01:48:08,439
to the rice market. That is not what happened. It

1827
01:48:08,479 --> 01:48:11,439
was he was occupation and authorities who introduced it then

1828
01:48:12,279 --> 01:48:16,520
and very much UH sold the Nasson West Berlin government

1829
01:48:16,640 --> 01:48:20,920
on it. But uh, the Soviets went nuts uh when

1830
01:48:20,960 --> 01:48:24,239
this happened, and uh they banned uh they banned uh

1831
01:48:24,960 --> 01:48:29,199
there the Deutsche mark from uh the from the the

1832
01:48:29,319 --> 01:48:32,800
Eastern zone of occupation. And yes they were literally arresting

1833
01:48:32,880 --> 01:48:37,000
people for for for for using it. So in the

1834
01:48:37,039 --> 01:48:40,199
Eastern in the Eastern occupations or Berlin, people resorted using

1835
01:48:40,199 --> 01:48:42,840
cigarettes as a defective currency. Like no, lie, I think

1836
01:48:43,119 --> 01:48:44,880
I mean that quite literally shows you, like what a

1837
01:48:44,920 --> 01:48:48,560
prison society this was from from jump, I guess. I mean,

1838
01:48:48,560 --> 01:48:50,079
I don't even have a particularly putitive view of the

1839
01:48:50,159 --> 01:48:51,600
d d R, and I mean that that should be

1840
01:48:51,600 --> 01:48:57,039
clear to anybody. But the uh, the introduction of the

1841
01:48:57,079 --> 01:49:01,680
new currency, uh when when you know, before with we

1842
01:49:01,760 --> 01:49:04,239
would all in the in the course of all the

1843
01:49:04,279 --> 01:49:09,920
failed four powers uh administrative bodies. You know, the one

1844
01:49:10,000 --> 01:49:14,079
thing that the Soviets that opposed unconditionally was uh, you know,

1845
01:49:14,159 --> 01:49:17,159
the introduction of of a private enterprise in the East

1846
01:49:17,199 --> 01:49:19,960
occupation zone. Okay, because there's no way they could to

1847
01:49:20,000 --> 01:49:23,319
controlled that, I mean obviously, and it couldn't have Eventually

1848
01:49:23,600 --> 01:49:25,960
if the Soviets had played their cards right, I'm talking

1849
01:49:26,079 --> 01:49:28,520
like years later, if not decades, I think they could

1850
01:49:28,560 --> 01:49:31,920
have made East Berlin kind of like they could have

1851
01:49:32,239 --> 01:49:34,279
viewed it treated, they could have treated kind of like

1852
01:49:34,720 --> 01:49:37,359
you know that the Chicoms treat Hong Kong. But I

1853
01:49:37,439 --> 01:49:40,079
mean that was many years off, like they this could

1854
01:49:40,119 --> 01:49:42,239
not that was not in the in the cards in

1855
01:49:42,439 --> 01:49:46,159
ninety forty eight, especially not by you know, the shock

1856
01:49:46,239 --> 01:49:50,760
therapy is the introduction of of of this new currency

1857
01:49:50,880 --> 01:49:54,279
back by uh, you know, back by American dollars. Okay

1858
01:49:54,359 --> 01:49:58,439
that there's no way, but the uh it was, uh,

1859
01:49:59,560 --> 01:50:06,159
things changed. The deutschbeer was introduced on June seventeenth nine

1860
01:50:08,039 --> 01:50:11,359
or June eighteenth, June eighteenth, ninety forty eight. The next

1861
01:50:11,479 --> 01:50:16,319
day Soviet guards suddenly cracked down, you know, suddenly suddenly

1862
01:50:16,359 --> 01:50:19,720
people uh the relatively kind of free ingress into into

1863
01:50:19,760 --> 01:50:22,239
East Berlin. You know, people are being stopped and searched.

1864
01:50:22,239 --> 01:50:25,520
People are being turned back. You know, UH trains are

1865
01:50:25,560 --> 01:50:31,199
being halted, any freight shipments, any old water transport. They

1866
01:50:31,239 --> 01:50:34,039
had to secure special permission from the Soviet authorities, not

1867
01:50:34,079 --> 01:50:38,319
from the East Berlin authorities, from the Soviets themselves. The

1868
01:50:38,520 --> 01:50:45,479
uh and UH got in the final uh got got

1869
01:50:45,560 --> 01:50:48,279
to the point of no return. Three day subsequent, on

1870
01:50:48,399 --> 01:50:53,359
the twenty first, the Soviets halted a US military supply

1871
01:50:53,560 --> 01:50:59,920
terrain to Berlin and sent it back. So essentially, as

1872
01:51:00,000 --> 01:51:03,960
always refused resupply of the United States Army forces in

1873
01:51:04,039 --> 01:51:07,399
Europe and even the idea in Berlin because Berlin, again,

1874
01:51:07,479 --> 01:51:11,560
Berlin was one hundred and ten miles into the interior

1875
01:51:11,560 --> 01:51:14,960
of the d DR. There's only at that time there's

1876
01:51:15,000 --> 01:51:18,560
only about three thousand US combat troops on the ground,

1877
01:51:18,600 --> 01:51:23,920
about two thousand British. The Soviets had a comprable size

1878
01:51:23,920 --> 01:51:26,399
force in East Berlin, but the Soviets had three hundred

1879
01:51:26,439 --> 01:51:31,000
thousand forces and being throughout you know, Eastern Germany proper, so,

1880
01:51:31,039 --> 01:51:34,520
I mean, if they came to war, there's those those

1881
01:51:34,720 --> 01:51:37,079
guys in US Berlin were dead, you know, they they

1882
01:51:37,119 --> 01:51:39,199
would have been slaughtered. I mean, so that this was

1883
01:51:39,199 --> 01:51:46,199
an ominous thing, you know. And uh, that same day,

1884
01:51:46,840 --> 01:51:50,800
the twenty second in June, the Soy's announced that they

1885
01:51:50,880 --> 01:51:53,479
were introducing the East German Mark in their own zone

1886
01:51:53,479 --> 01:51:56,640
of occupation. It was to be the only only legitimate,

1887
01:51:57,439 --> 01:52:02,640
only legitimate currency. And uh, later on, which is really

1888
01:52:02,680 --> 01:52:07,640
really weird. In East Berlin, Uh, I'm talking like into

1889
01:52:07,640 --> 01:52:10,560
the eighties, there were specialty shops, there were there were

1890
01:52:10,600 --> 01:52:14,560
like duty free shops where non East German citizens were visiting,

1891
01:52:15,000 --> 01:52:17,640
they could they could buy stuff with foreign currency. Like

1892
01:52:17,720 --> 01:52:20,960
cigarettes or liquor or like or like other things like food,

1893
01:52:21,039 --> 01:52:25,760
like like like specialty food items. But but they were

1894
01:52:25,760 --> 01:52:28,520
like designated foreign currency shops. I mean kind of like

1895
01:52:28,600 --> 01:52:31,600
the the hoops that these Marxist Lennon states jumped through.

1896
01:52:31,800 --> 01:52:35,000
They got to maintain the fiction that their currencies were

1897
01:52:35,039 --> 01:52:37,600
actually worth something is really really weird, you know what

1898
01:52:37,600 --> 01:52:40,279
I mean. It's it's called like you know the old

1899
01:52:40,279 --> 01:52:45,000
movie Brazil, Uh say, attire movie. I think, yeah, yeah,

1900
01:52:45,159 --> 01:52:49,199
like yeah, it reminds me of that in some basic way.

1901
01:52:49,439 --> 01:52:59,399
But it was a June twenty fourth. Uh, the Soviets

1902
01:52:59,399 --> 01:53:02,199
severed land and in water connections between the non Soviet

1903
01:53:02,319 --> 01:53:07,119
zones in Berlin, so all all ground rail or water

1904
01:53:07,199 --> 01:53:09,880
traffic was cut off. Like nobody, nobody got in or

1905
01:53:09,880 --> 01:53:20,239
out of West Berlin. Okay, the uh the uh. They

1906
01:53:20,239 --> 01:53:24,279
couldn't cut off obviously like electricity and water, because that

1907
01:53:24,319 --> 01:53:26,079
would have been an own goal, because I mean Berlin

1908
01:53:26,199 --> 01:53:28,560
was quite literally just divided down the center with this

1909
01:53:28,640 --> 01:53:32,479
kind of artificial like what like on a battle map,

1910
01:53:32,520 --> 01:53:34,720
be considered like a salient, but it you know, there wasn't.

1911
01:53:35,560 --> 01:53:38,840
It was not. People sometimes had this idea that there

1912
01:53:38,880 --> 01:53:41,079
was something like rhyme or reason to how Berlin was divided,

1913
01:53:41,199 --> 01:53:42,680
like there was not. So I mean it's not that

1914
01:53:43,880 --> 01:53:45,880
you couldn't cut off utilities to half of Berlin but

1915
01:53:45,960 --> 01:53:49,640
not the other half, but just the same West Berlin

1916
01:53:50,199 --> 01:53:53,319
at the time, UH, at the time it was blockaded,

1917
01:53:53,920 --> 01:53:56,000
and that's just over like a month's where like it

1918
01:53:56,079 --> 01:53:58,399
was between like thirty five and forty five like days

1919
01:53:58,439 --> 01:54:01,000
with the food, something like fifty days where the coal.

1920
01:54:01,399 --> 01:54:07,039
It was like a very critical situation. And the entire

1921
01:54:08,159 --> 01:54:10,560
the entire United States Army just total forces and being

1922
01:54:11,000 --> 01:54:12,840
by ninty forty eight have been reduced about half a

1923
01:54:12,840 --> 01:54:18,000
million men. The UH total force in the Western sector

1924
01:54:18,399 --> 01:54:22,079
were about eight thousand, nine hundred Americans, about seventy six

1925
01:54:22,199 --> 01:54:27,199
hundred British, about six thousand French. UH there was only

1926
01:54:27,279 --> 01:54:30,039
thirty one thousand combat forces and all of West Germany.

1927
01:54:31,279 --> 01:54:33,439
So I mean, if it came to war like a

1928
01:54:33,760 --> 01:54:37,520
both Soviet attack, total Soviet military forces in the Soviet

1929
01:54:37,560 --> 01:54:42,960
sector were one point five million. Now, the United States

1930
01:54:43,079 --> 01:54:44,920
at that point that night still a monopoly and the

1931
01:54:44,920 --> 01:54:47,439
atomic bomb, but I mean, what do you if if

1932
01:54:47,640 --> 01:54:49,840
if if communist force is trewe to Berlin, what are

1933
01:54:49,840 --> 01:54:51,720
you gonna do you know, you're gonna, you gonna you

1934
01:54:51,800 --> 01:54:54,199
didn't you had launch an atomic assault in Berlin and

1935
01:54:54,279 --> 01:54:58,640
waste drooling people and all the Berliners. I mean this, this,

1936
01:54:58,800 --> 01:55:01,840
this was this was very very and frankly it was

1937
01:55:01,920 --> 01:55:04,560
a uh it was a gamble of the sort that

1938
01:55:04,680 --> 01:55:12,439
Stalin did not usually take. But interestingly it was Lucius Clay.

1939
01:55:12,840 --> 01:55:16,760
Uh he was a commander of a the U. S.

1940
01:55:16,800 --> 01:55:21,760
Occupation zone, you know, he said it was he said

1941
01:55:22,720 --> 01:55:26,319
Curtis LeMay. Interestingly, le May wanted to do a he

1942
01:55:26,439 --> 01:55:29,359
wanted to he wanted to mobilize atomic capable of B

1943
01:55:29,439 --> 01:55:33,239
twenty nines an assault the Soviet sector but you know,

1944
01:55:33,319 --> 01:55:36,840
like like nukeam you know, and uh and and mobilized

1945
01:55:36,840 --> 01:55:39,800
with infantry they were available in West Berlin, uh or

1946
01:55:39,840 --> 01:55:41,800
in West Germany, you know, and then to forcee delivery

1947
01:55:41,840 --> 01:55:44,920
West Berlin with them after after this, after a massive

1948
01:55:45,159 --> 01:55:48,720
atomic assault on Soviet forces with with B twenty nines.

1949
01:55:49,199 --> 01:55:54,239
But uh that uh that that that suggestion was not invited, obviously,

1950
01:55:54,840 --> 01:55:57,560
But I I it was not some kind of mad man.

1951
01:55:57,760 --> 01:56:01,119
I'm a I'm I'm quite fond of May in history,

1952
01:56:01,159 --> 01:56:04,399
and I think he's kind of unduly characterized as this

1953
01:56:04,560 --> 01:56:06,439
kind of like Jack d Ripper type, you know, like

1954
01:56:06,560 --> 01:56:14,119
in in Strange Love but UH loses Clay. Uh. It

1955
01:56:14,319 --> 01:56:19,159
was uh in concert with uh a lot a lot

1956
01:56:19,199 --> 01:56:21,199
of a lot of civilian types who you know, we're

1957
01:56:21,239 --> 01:56:25,520
still we're still kind of uh, we're still kind of

1958
01:56:25,600 --> 01:56:28,720
situated into into government and quasi military roles owing to

1959
01:56:29,640 --> 01:56:34,800
the war only being three years past. US Army Corps

1960
01:56:34,840 --> 01:56:40,720
engineers UH, US Army Air Forces. The Berlin airlift, UH

1961
01:56:42,159 --> 01:56:45,439
was really uh, it was really kind of an amazing

1962
01:56:46,039 --> 01:56:48,319
It was really kind of an amazing not just the

1963
01:56:48,760 --> 01:56:53,079
not just policy coup, but sort of strategic rooking of Stalin.

1964
01:56:53,199 --> 01:56:58,600
But it it it it Uh. It demonstrated the feasibility

1965
01:56:58,680 --> 01:57:02,640
of uh of airpower in uh and not just in

1966
01:57:02,720 --> 01:57:05,920
military capacities. I mean, which was obvious, but it it's

1967
01:57:05,920 --> 01:57:08,199
some ways weird. It sounded maybe more coporable with the

1968
01:57:08,319 --> 01:57:11,439
idea of you know, huge amounts of air traffic in

1969
01:57:11,520 --> 01:57:13,880
and out of a major city, you know, and there

1970
01:57:13,960 --> 01:57:16,159
there's there's a there's literally ideas before like oh there's

1971
01:57:16,199 --> 01:57:18,439
gonna be like pollution and noise and things like it.

1972
01:57:18,920 --> 01:57:21,399
You know, these like thousands and thousand, thousands of sorties

1973
01:57:22,840 --> 01:57:25,720
in and out of Berlin. Uh. That that kind of

1974
01:57:25,840 --> 01:57:29,479
changed things. Uh. And that's I mean, honestly, that's like

1975
01:57:29,520 --> 01:57:32,640
a lot of time. How people become habituated to do technologies.

1976
01:57:33,159 --> 01:57:35,199
It's not any kind of uh, it's not it's not

1977
01:57:35,239 --> 01:57:38,319
any kind of small thing. I mean, there was guys

1978
01:57:38,560 --> 01:57:41,039
like LeMay himself and these guys, ticularly guys who fought

1979
01:57:41,760 --> 01:57:44,199
with the Army Air Forces in the Pacific. You know,

1980
01:57:44,319 --> 01:57:47,880
they developed these uh they you know, they they developed

1981
01:57:47,920 --> 01:57:51,279
these uh, these these assault routes from the Mariannas Islands

1982
01:57:51,319 --> 01:57:54,600
and things, and uh, you know, there was the ex

1983
01:57:54,760 --> 01:57:57,439
pres experience of the airlift uh over the quote hump

1984
01:57:57,520 --> 01:58:00,279
of the Himalayas, you know, from India to China. But

1985
01:58:00,399 --> 01:58:03,359
it was military guys who kind of understood the potential

1986
01:58:03,399 --> 01:58:07,760
of air power it broad spectrum application, you know, military

1987
01:58:07,840 --> 01:58:10,720
and civilian and commercial use. Like the man in the

1988
01:58:10,720 --> 01:58:15,560
street really didn't. Then the Berlin Airlift. Uh, the Berlin

1989
01:58:15,600 --> 01:58:24,159
Airlift changed it. Uh it uh it uh. But le

1990
01:58:24,279 --> 01:58:29,399
May was he uh In terms of staffing decisions, he did,

1991
01:58:29,680 --> 01:58:32,359
and he did. He did end up appointing a lot

1992
01:58:32,720 --> 01:58:35,720
most of the key figures in executive roles who uh

1993
01:58:36,119 --> 01:58:39,680
who May the airlift happened General Joseph Smith not to

1994
01:58:39,760 --> 01:58:44,840
be confused, but like the father of Mormonism, he was

1995
01:58:45,439 --> 01:58:52,359
he'd been uh but Smith had been like there's a

1996
01:58:52,399 --> 01:58:54,920
huge amount of guys who served and served under le

1997
01:58:55,039 --> 01:58:59,840
May during the war who went on like prestige rolls

1998
01:58:59,880 --> 01:59:03,840
and including Robert McNamara or uh yeah McNamara. H Smith

1999
01:59:03,880 --> 01:59:06,720
had been uh la made chief of staff uh when

2000
01:59:06,800 --> 01:59:09,279
LaMDA B twenty nine command like in India and then

2001
01:59:09,319 --> 01:59:13,279
in the Mary honest, Uh you know loss Clay wasn't

2002
01:59:13,319 --> 01:59:15,199
under Lay's command. But I mean they you know, they

2003
01:59:15,279 --> 01:59:20,920
made acquaintance during the war. But the uh, it demonstrated,

2004
01:59:21,119 --> 01:59:26,079
it demonstrated what was possible. And it also uh it

2005
01:59:26,199 --> 01:59:28,520
was such a collaborative effort between I mean it had

2006
01:59:28,520 --> 01:59:29,720
to be even in the United States in the UK,

2007
01:59:30,319 --> 01:59:31,880
I mean, for better or worse, you know, like and

2008
01:59:31,920 --> 01:59:33,800
I'm not tragged in the UK. You know, the UK

2009
01:59:33,920 --> 01:59:36,479
remained airstrip one in a real way obviously because of

2010
01:59:36,520 --> 01:59:39,039
this and owing you know, like we like we talked

2011
01:59:39,039 --> 01:59:41,840
about is an FDR is kind of inconsistent and frankly,

2012
01:59:41,880 --> 01:59:46,119
Eve Pierant signaling about the status of U UK US

2013
01:59:46,199 --> 01:59:50,880
relations uh post uh bellam. It wasn't clear like what

2014
01:59:51,439 --> 01:59:53,720
role the UK would add here or whether or not

2015
01:59:53,920 --> 01:59:56,039
the United States would raise a finger to defend you know,

2016
01:59:56,279 --> 01:59:59,000
key strategic interest, not not just the interests of the empire,

2017
01:59:59,079 --> 02:00:02,760
which regulating an interest in the United States and in

2018
02:00:02,840 --> 02:00:05,960
preserving for any reason, but I mean the adults. So

2019
02:00:06,000 --> 02:00:09,600
I mean it was it solidified the quote I hate

2020
02:00:09,640 --> 02:00:11,960
the term special relationship. And there's all kinds of like

2021
02:00:12,560 --> 02:00:16,239
things that are are far far less than admirable that

2022
02:00:16,359 --> 02:00:20,800
that entails. But apparently, like uh collaborative strategic terms, it

2023
02:00:21,000 --> 02:00:26,960
solidified you know, the US UK UH concord, particularly as

2024
02:00:27,000 --> 02:00:31,800
regards UH operational coordination with UH with their forces, and

2025
02:00:31,880 --> 02:00:35,920
that's no small thing. And before the revolution in military

2026
02:00:35,960 --> 02:00:43,039
affairs and decades before contemporary commanding control, that was incredibly difficult. Uh.

2027
02:00:43,079 --> 02:00:45,640
They really can't be overstated. I mean, something like Berlin

2028
02:00:45,680 --> 02:00:48,680
AirLand would be the hell of a hell of an

2029
02:00:48,680 --> 02:00:51,439
operation today. But I mean you're talking about like you're

2030
02:00:51,439 --> 02:00:53,760
talking about like radios, the cutting edge of like commanding

2031
02:00:53,760 --> 02:00:56,159
control technology and nine forty eight, like think about this,

2032
02:00:56,960 --> 02:00:59,720
it's like stuff. So that's like it's son's less what

2033
02:01:00,439 --> 02:01:02,279
like the Rockie talkies he played with his kid in

2034
02:01:02,359 --> 02:01:07,000
like the early eighties, you know that. UH. But the

2035
02:01:08,520 --> 02:01:14,560
the UH that was UH, that was the UH that

2036
02:01:14,720 --> 02:01:17,119
was the that that was the opposite of the Cold

2037
02:01:17,159 --> 02:01:20,840
War in UH in in real terms. And I don't

2038
02:01:20,840 --> 02:01:22,720
I don't think anybody would. I don't think anyone would

2039
02:01:22,720 --> 02:01:26,800
dispute would dispute that. And there were shenanigans too, like

2040
02:01:26,880 --> 02:01:30,479
the there was one single municipal election for all of

2041
02:01:30,560 --> 02:01:36,319
Berlin in UH in ninety forty six, and the the UH,

2042
02:01:36,520 --> 02:01:39,279
the Socialist Unity Party didn't pull pathetically yourself and they

2043
02:01:39,279 --> 02:01:42,960
only polled like you know, and that that's what put

2044
02:01:42,960 --> 02:01:45,560
the Christian Democrats on the map, not just in West Berlin,

2045
02:01:45,640 --> 02:01:48,560
but it's like the Bundesst Republic like Conservative party, but

2046
02:01:48,680 --> 02:01:52,680
the Soviets basically they're basically they were like, you know, okay,

2047
02:01:52,680 --> 02:01:54,199
the hell with it, Like we're not we're not gonna

2048
02:01:54,199 --> 02:01:56,800
pursue a political solution, you know, with because obviously they

2049
02:01:56,800 --> 02:01:59,920
weren't gonna they weren't gonna get you know, because my

2050
02:02:00,119 --> 02:02:03,239
Berlin had been like the that had been like the

2051
02:02:03,520 --> 02:02:06,039
Communist art Land, you know, like in the our years,

2052
02:02:07,199 --> 02:02:10,199
I and people people post the question like not not

2053
02:02:10,319 --> 02:02:14,560
as curious like readers, but like historians who like are

2054
02:02:14,840 --> 02:02:17,920
deeply understand you know, uh rush of the era. They're like,

2055
02:02:17,960 --> 02:02:20,920
why did the Russians do this? And uh, it was

2056
02:02:20,960 --> 02:02:22,399
just to get the lay of the land. I'm telling you.

2057
02:02:22,600 --> 02:02:25,560
I mean that that's it makes total sense from Stalin's perspective.

2058
02:02:26,399 --> 02:02:30,000
Stalin was Stalin was what if Stalin's was a guy

2059
02:02:30,159 --> 02:02:31,880
even the personality type today because there him like a

2060
02:02:31,960 --> 02:02:35,359
dada junkie like Stalin was obsessed with informational awareness, you know,

2061
02:02:35,399 --> 02:02:37,760
like he really was. And it's I guarantee. You just said, like, well,

2062
02:02:37,840 --> 02:02:40,079
let's I mean, let's see, let's let's hold an actual election,

2063
02:02:40,279 --> 02:02:42,159
like a legit election, and let's see what was more

2064
02:02:42,159 --> 02:02:45,239
We got on the ground, Okay, about twenty twenty five percent,

2065
02:02:45,359 --> 02:02:47,600
that's fair. We can build coveredies around there. But this

2066
02:02:47,720 --> 02:02:50,960
is never gonna happen again, you know. But that's I

2067
02:02:51,000 --> 02:02:52,600
think we're coming about an hour. I think we'll stop

2068
02:02:52,680 --> 02:02:57,319
there and uh well, uh well, deep dive into I

2069
02:02:57,439 --> 02:02:59,439
realized this might have been the most exciting episode, but

2070
02:02:59,520 --> 02:03:03,239
it was important because otherwise we're we're dealing with a

2071
02:03:03,399 --> 02:03:06,079
huge phenomenon, and that being the cold war where no

2072
02:03:06,239 --> 02:03:09,920
actual kind of starting starting point or tab list has

2073
02:03:09,960 --> 02:03:13,159
been identified. But well, we're gonna get into the Korean War,

2074
02:03:13,279 --> 02:03:17,880
the formation of NATO, and it's the Truman doctrine next episode.

2075
02:03:20,199 --> 02:03:22,439
Speaker 1: That sounds great plugs.

2076
02:03:22,720 --> 02:03:25,640
Speaker 2: Well then yeah, we're I'm very happy to report that.

2077
02:03:25,880 --> 02:03:27,279
I mean you might see it. I've got I've got

2078
02:03:27,319 --> 02:03:30,840
this cool uh like backdrop. I'm in the Apocalypse. I

2079
02:03:31,279 --> 02:03:34,760
fought my production values. Uh and also like I got,

2080
02:03:34,920 --> 02:03:37,920
I got a video editor to join like our production team,

2081
02:03:37,960 --> 02:03:41,199
and he's great. Uh So the YouTube channel is finally

2082
02:03:41,239 --> 02:03:45,359
gonna launch. Uh. I I'm back on Twitter now because

2083
02:03:45,399 --> 02:03:51,239
Elon is apparently giving people like me a amnesty. Uh.

2084
02:03:51,680 --> 02:03:55,520
You can find me at Triskellian Jahad. The first T

2085
02:03:55,840 --> 02:03:59,239
is a number seven. You can find me on substack

2086
02:03:59,560 --> 02:04:05,000
uh at real Thomas seven seven seven. And I mean

2087
02:04:05,079 --> 02:04:07,239
you can find me, like I said when I in

2088
02:04:07,560 --> 02:04:09,800
in about it in a few days when I when

2089
02:04:09,800 --> 02:04:11,640
the unit vannel doesn' launch, I'll upload a lot of

2090
02:04:11,640 --> 02:04:15,000
this stuff there and it's uh Thomas TV in front

2091
02:04:15,000 --> 02:04:17,760
of these Thomas seven seven seven. I know that's corny

2092
02:04:17,800 --> 02:04:19,439
is supposed to be. It's a riff on Dave TV.

2093
02:04:19,600 --> 02:04:25,239
If you're old like me, you remember, well there's Dave TV.

2094
02:04:25,399 --> 02:04:28,560
I got Thomas TV. So yeah, but thank you, Pete.

2095
02:04:28,640 --> 02:04:30,239
I really really appreciate it.

2096
02:04:30,920 --> 02:04:33,600
Speaker 1: No problem, we'll pick it up again next week. Thanks Thomas.

2097
02:04:35,680 --> 02:04:38,520
I want to welcome everyone back to The Pea Show,

2098
02:04:39,319 --> 02:04:42,079
Part three with Thomas seven seven seven.

2099
02:04:42,239 --> 02:04:44,680
Speaker 2: How are you doing, Thomas, I'm very well. Thanks for

2100
02:04:44,800 --> 02:04:47,399
hosting me. There's a few things I wanted to talk

2101
02:04:47,399 --> 02:04:50,800
about today, and I want people to not be shy

2102
02:04:51,319 --> 02:04:54,000
if I'm being too scater shot, I'm not focused enough.

2103
02:04:55,279 --> 02:04:57,319
The Cold War is such a massive topic and it

2104
02:04:57,399 --> 02:05:01,560
touches and concerns all kinds of theory matters, you know,

2105
02:05:01,560 --> 02:05:06,319
which is kind of like my wheelhouse, but it also

2106
02:05:06,479 --> 02:05:10,239
you know, in terms of practical affairs and very quantifiable things,

2107
02:05:11,520 --> 02:05:13,920
you know. It it really kind of it created the

2108
02:05:13,960 --> 02:05:18,199
contemporary strategic landscape, you know, and it endured for it

2109
02:05:18,319 --> 02:05:22,960
endured for a century. So there's so much there. You've

2110
02:05:23,000 --> 02:05:24,840
kind of got to pick and choose what you emphasize.

2111
02:05:25,279 --> 02:05:28,840
I'm trying to go and lineit your order, because you know,

2112
02:05:28,960 --> 02:05:35,920
that's and whatever you're whatever you're trying to whatever, whatever

2113
02:05:35,920 --> 02:05:40,479
your emphasis is in in in revisionism, you know, you

2114
02:05:40,520 --> 02:05:42,399
need to be as rigorous as you would in any

2115
02:05:42,439 --> 02:05:45,880
other historical study. I mean that doesn't mean just you know, relating,

2116
02:05:46,159 --> 02:05:50,319
relaying facts and documenting events for its own sake. But

2117
02:05:51,479 --> 02:05:53,119
I don't just want to be taking off a list

2118
02:05:53,199 --> 02:05:56,279
of you know, what I consider key events or something. However,

2119
02:05:56,600 --> 02:05:59,439
if if I'm if I'm getting ahead of myself, or

2120
02:05:59,479 --> 02:06:01,680
if there doesn't to be a kind of tie that

2121
02:06:01,800 --> 02:06:05,760
binds to make the narrative listenable or intelligible, please tell

2122
02:06:05,880 --> 02:06:08,000
me in the comments, and not going to get upset.

2123
02:06:09,039 --> 02:06:11,800
What was on my mind a lot lately, especially because

2124
02:06:11,920 --> 02:06:13,960
in the morning a couple of days a week, uh,

2125
02:06:14,680 --> 02:06:17,039
my dad gives me a ride downtown for stuff I

2126
02:06:17,079 --> 02:06:19,800
gotta do. And you know, I listened to eight ninety

2127
02:06:19,840 --> 02:06:24,199
AM Talk Radio, which isn't it's not garbage like NPR,

2128
02:06:24,359 --> 02:06:26,640
but it's garbage of a different sort. And they have

2129
02:06:26,800 --> 02:06:30,800
all these polemical takes from you know, these like retired

2130
02:06:31,640 --> 02:06:34,920
you know, captains and majors, you know, like kind of

2131
02:06:34,960 --> 02:06:38,359
like third rate want to be war college types, you know,

2132
02:06:38,439 --> 02:06:40,119
as well as you know, some of these kind of

2133
02:06:40,119 --> 02:06:43,079
DeSantis type Republicans or kind of like the token conservatives

2134
02:06:43,239 --> 02:06:46,439
on on the panel on these morning talk radio programs.

2135
02:06:47,079 --> 02:06:49,039
You know, there's there's it's it's interesting the way these

2136
02:06:49,079 --> 02:06:52,359
guys talk about Russia. Okay, because Russia kind of like

2137
02:06:52,479 --> 02:06:55,319
dar al Islam. You're still allowed to say basically prejudice

2138
02:06:55,399 --> 02:06:57,760
things about it, you know, because it's not you know,

2139
02:06:58,479 --> 02:07:02,560
it's it's not part of that kind of protect it's

2140
02:07:02,600 --> 02:07:05,960
not conceptually you know, incorporated into you know, the the

2141
02:07:06,279 --> 02:07:12,079
victimology narrative. Okay. But also there's even as even if

2142
02:07:12,079 --> 02:07:14,720
they erastinated as people are in America, you know, especially

2143
02:07:14,720 --> 02:07:16,640
in terms of these you know, the kinds of people

2144
02:07:16,640 --> 02:07:20,560
who populate media, what remains the original media at least,

2145
02:07:21,720 --> 02:07:24,319
you know, even academic types who who couldn't tell you

2146
02:07:24,359 --> 02:07:26,840
anything about their own heritage and are not very racially

2147
02:07:26,880 --> 02:07:29,680
conscious at all. There remains this kind of atavistic fear

2148
02:07:29,760 --> 02:07:33,560
of Russia. And that's not just some that's not that's

2149
02:07:33,600 --> 02:07:36,279
not just some kind of hackneyed poetical take that people

2150
02:07:36,319 --> 02:07:40,000
like Lavrov you know, drop uh on the on the

2151
02:07:40,039 --> 02:07:42,479
floor of the you on General Assembly in order to

2152
02:07:42,920 --> 02:07:46,319
make a point or to scandalize people. That really is true,

2153
02:07:46,920 --> 02:07:50,119
and to understand the Cold War, you've got to understand

2154
02:07:50,159 --> 02:07:53,119
You've got to really understand why that came about. I've

2155
02:07:53,159 --> 02:07:56,000
been reading lately. There's this book by Michael Proudon and

2156
02:07:56,159 --> 02:07:59,560
it was released interview, different titles, The Value I've got,

2157
02:07:59,560 --> 02:08:03,399
it's under the titled The Mongol Empire. There's another one.

2158
02:08:03,520 --> 02:08:07,439
There's another addition, identical book, you know, called called Storm

2159
02:08:07,479 --> 02:08:10,560
out of Asia. But what it's all about is it's

2160
02:08:10,560 --> 02:08:13,680
all about when the Europeans made first contact with the Mongols,

2161
02:08:13,760 --> 02:08:16,720
you know, in the thirteenth century a d okay. Now

2162
02:08:16,760 --> 02:08:20,000
why was this so significant? Well, you know, the Europeans

2163
02:08:20,039 --> 02:08:23,000
since ten ninety five and intermediately been at war with U,

2164
02:08:23,359 --> 02:08:28,000
with the Saracens, you know, at Salahadeen and his descendants.

2165
02:08:28,520 --> 02:08:30,920
You know that this was a crusading ero, okay. And

2166
02:08:32,199 --> 02:08:34,119
what was fascining about that is that it was the

2167
02:08:34,199 --> 02:08:36,560
only time until I me, unless you count you know,

2168
02:08:36,600 --> 02:08:39,199
the Napoleonic Wars, which were kind of more convenience than

2169
02:08:39,920 --> 02:08:43,840
than than than you know, than a unity of faith obviously,

2170
02:08:44,159 --> 02:08:45,520
you know, it's really the only time we had it,

2171
02:08:45,600 --> 02:08:48,119
you know, truly European armies, you know, going off to

2172
02:08:48,159 --> 02:08:52,279
the war against the common civilizational enemy. However, some of

2173
02:08:52,439 --> 02:08:54,720
that kind of concord had been had been reached with

2174
02:08:54,760 --> 02:08:58,760
the Mauslims. Okay, I mean sometimes, you know, sometimes there's

2175
02:08:58,800 --> 02:09:01,560
relative peace that reigned, you know in UH, in the

2176
02:09:01,640 --> 02:09:04,159
Kingdom of Jerusalem. You know, after that Battle of hot

2177
02:09:04,199 --> 02:09:09,720
Team and UH the Moslim conquest, things deteriorated, but you know,

2178
02:09:09,760 --> 02:09:11,840
there's just kind of like an ongoing thing. But in

2179
02:09:11,920 --> 02:09:13,880
the twelve you know, in the twelve twenty, something of

2180
02:09:13,920 --> 02:09:16,479
these rumors came about that there was this huge marauding army.

2181
02:09:16,520 --> 02:09:19,039
It was just slaughtering everything in its path, and a

2182
02:09:19,119 --> 02:09:21,760
lot of people in monasteries and monks, they're like, well,

2183
02:09:21,880 --> 02:09:23,520
you know this, this, this is the scourge of God

2184
02:09:23,560 --> 02:09:26,680
and he's punishing you know, the infidel Moslims, but he's

2185
02:09:26,680 --> 02:09:29,880
also punishing these pagan tribes to populate the step, you know,

2186
02:09:29,920 --> 02:09:32,960
because all these barbarian people are literally being driven west

2187
02:09:33,399 --> 02:09:35,880
to the European frontier and saying, you know, there's these

2188
02:09:35,960 --> 02:09:38,840
men on horses, there's long torsos, and they kill everybody.

2189
02:09:39,319 --> 02:09:41,439
You know, when they like those left alive, you know,

2190
02:09:41,520 --> 02:09:43,439
they take the women as slaves and they you know,

2191
02:09:43,479 --> 02:09:46,359
they force the men into you know, into into Duty

2192
02:09:46,399 --> 02:09:48,399
of Janis series. Basically you know, and they and they

2193
02:09:48,520 --> 02:09:50,279
drive them, you know, out front, and you know they

2194
02:09:50,399 --> 02:09:52,520
take they take the first blow when we when they

2195
02:09:52,600 --> 02:09:54,840
encounter their enemies, and their enemies are everybody but them.

2196
02:09:55,199 --> 02:09:57,239
And some people thought this was just nonsense, say, these

2197
02:09:57,239 --> 02:09:59,920
are primitive Pagans, they're you know, they they don't know

2198
02:10:00,039 --> 02:10:02,079
that hell are talking about. They probably smet the Saracens,

2199
02:10:02,800 --> 02:10:05,880
you know. Other people said there were Jews who said, like, well,

2200
02:10:05,960 --> 02:10:08,159
you know King David his combit, you know, and he's

2201
02:10:08,199 --> 02:10:10,159
coming to punish you for the way you've treated the Jews,

2202
02:10:10,199 --> 02:10:12,359
you know, and he's coming to punish Jews too, who've

2203
02:10:12,439 --> 02:10:15,279
like forgotten God. Well, obviously with none of those things

2204
02:10:15,439 --> 02:10:21,359
was the Mongols, okay, and the association of the East

2205
02:10:21,479 --> 02:10:25,800
with this barbarian element that never really left okay, And

2206
02:10:26,039 --> 02:10:28,039
I mean it never really left in the European cultural

2207
02:10:28,159 --> 02:10:32,039
mind and conceptual horizon. But it also never really left

2208
02:10:32,119 --> 02:10:34,359
literally okay, Like I'm not I'm not saying Russians are

2209
02:10:34,399 --> 02:10:39,680
a bunch of Mongols or barbarians. But there was this

2210
02:10:39,840 --> 02:10:45,800
this massive, uh, this massive monolithic force emerge it from

2211
02:10:45,880 --> 02:10:48,439
the step that was just destroying everything in his path,

2212
02:10:48,479 --> 02:10:52,039
assimilating everything that was left alive or left standing like

2213
02:10:52,159 --> 02:10:56,119
literally into its into its structure. You know. That's that's

2214
02:10:56,159 --> 02:11:01,600
really what the Soviet Union was. Okay. And at the

2215
02:11:02,159 --> 02:11:06,920
at the at the at the s s uh Yunker schools,

2216
02:11:07,479 --> 02:11:12,279
the uh, the Proudings book was actually given officers, okay,

2217
02:11:13,560 --> 02:11:16,600
and that that significant. Himler didn't assign Himler and Paul Houser.

2218
02:11:16,960 --> 02:11:19,199
They didn't have people reading the International jew They didn't

2219
02:11:19,199 --> 02:11:21,520
have people reading Clouds of Wits. I mean, people didn't

2220
02:11:21,520 --> 02:11:23,159
read Clouds with was Py the curriculum. But you know,

2221
02:11:23,159 --> 02:11:26,159
the book you got my graduate graduation was this book

2222
02:11:26,199 --> 02:11:29,399
by proud him Both because it's you know, it's always

2223
02:11:29,520 --> 02:11:32,600
it's saying, you know this, this is your enemy. You know,

2224
02:11:32,680 --> 02:11:35,479
this is what you know. You're you're in You're you're

2225
02:11:35,520 --> 02:11:38,399
a knight of the new uh Blood Order of of

2226
02:11:38,720 --> 02:11:40,920
of Europe, you know, in the s s and this

2227
02:11:41,079 --> 02:11:43,079
is what we're fighting against, you know, because where the

2228
02:11:43,159 --> 02:11:46,279
where the we're the watch on the Rhine. Okay. But

2229
02:11:46,399 --> 02:11:52,319
also after you know, three hundred years of of the

2230
02:11:52,399 --> 02:11:58,720
Westphalian paradigm, it you know, uh, the reality of true

2231
02:11:58,800 --> 02:12:03,319
total war was was in and again okay, and uh

2232
02:12:04,279 --> 02:12:08,000
that they cannot be emphasized enough, and even it sounds corny,

2233
02:12:08,439 --> 02:12:12,079
but you can glean things from you know, uh, you can,

2234
02:12:12,119 --> 02:12:14,680
you can you can discern symbolic psychological things even in

2235
02:12:14,760 --> 02:12:17,840
kind of trashy media. You know, and I watch I

2236
02:12:17,880 --> 02:12:19,319
didn't watched it in years. You know, I like a

2237
02:12:19,319 --> 02:12:21,399
lot when I was a little kid. You know, Red Dawn,

2238
02:12:21,640 --> 02:12:24,359
you know, with Patrick Swayze and see Thomas Howell. You know,

2239
02:12:24,439 --> 02:12:27,399
the that's actually kind of an interesting movie, like as

2240
02:12:27,439 --> 02:12:30,119
a period piece mostly, but you don't like the black

2241
02:12:30,239 --> 02:12:33,319
history teacher when when the when when when the town

2242
02:12:33,399 --> 02:12:36,119
first gets assaulted by like the Soviets and the Sandinistas

2243
02:12:36,119 --> 02:12:40,199
and the Cubanos. He's teaching a class about gang is Khan, okay,

2244
02:12:40,720 --> 02:12:42,600
And that's like not an accident, there's really like on

2245
02:12:42,760 --> 02:12:47,560
the nose, okay. But so when you consider that, you

2246
02:12:47,600 --> 02:12:49,720
consider that, you know, Europe is literally this kind of

2247
02:12:49,760 --> 02:12:55,319
indefensible peninsula that you know it that that's the way

2248
02:12:55,359 --> 02:12:57,680
you got to understand. That's way you gotta understand the

2249
02:12:57,680 --> 02:13:00,000
Second World War. That's way you've got to understand essentially

2250
02:13:00,239 --> 02:13:07,439
the entire the entire nuh, the entire European uh military

2251
02:13:07,479 --> 02:13:12,239
orientation and uh, the you know, and the and uh

2252
02:13:14,119 --> 02:13:16,600
and the the this this you know, the the striving

2253
02:13:16,680 --> 02:13:21,840
eastward of UH of Teutonic peoples. And in the Cold War,

2254
02:13:22,079 --> 02:13:25,520
this was very much kind of transposed to America. Okay,

2255
02:13:25,880 --> 02:13:28,399
there was there was very much a racial component here. Okay,

2256
02:13:28,479 --> 02:13:30,439
even though there were strange things going on in America.

2257
02:13:30,960 --> 02:13:33,039
You know, there was the the fact that the Soviet

2258
02:13:33,079 --> 02:13:36,960
Union became, you know, a superpower and without annihilated oh

2259
02:13:37,119 --> 02:13:39,520
do uh oh to the United States align with it,

2260
02:13:39,680 --> 02:13:45,119
to to crush uh imperium Europa with you know, under

2261
02:13:45,159 --> 02:13:48,720
the under the German Reich. But you know, nevertheless, uh,

2262
02:13:49,439 --> 02:13:52,520
you know, these uh, the these things re emerge again

2263
02:13:52,600 --> 02:13:56,000
and again. It's it's almost like a it's almost like

2264
02:13:56,039 --> 02:13:59,159
a natural structural form that like snatched back in a place,

2265
02:13:59,279 --> 02:14:01,840
even when people try to corrupt it or mold it

2266
02:14:01,920 --> 02:14:09,640
into different configurations. But I uh, what I want to

2267
02:14:09,640 --> 02:14:13,520
talk about today is the war in Korea, and this

2268
02:14:13,680 --> 02:14:17,479
bear is directly what we're talking about. And the Cold

2269
02:14:17,600 --> 02:14:20,159
War actually was fought in terms of hot war. I

2270
02:14:20,199 --> 02:14:22,079
mean all kinds of ledgered Maine, and there was there

2271
02:14:22,159 --> 02:14:25,239
was true violence in Europe of but it was all

2272
02:14:25,319 --> 02:14:26,920
I mean, it was never there was. There was never

2273
02:14:26,920 --> 02:14:29,239
a general war fought in Europe during the Cold War.

2274
02:14:30,199 --> 02:14:34,239
There was. The Cold War was literally grew hot in Asia. Okay,

2275
02:14:34,279 --> 02:14:36,000
the Cold War where there was lead in the air

2276
02:14:37,479 --> 02:14:41,439
between you know, mass conventional forces. They have been in Asia,

2277
02:14:41,880 --> 02:14:45,720
and it's not accidental, and uh that's not uh, it

2278
02:14:45,840 --> 02:14:47,600
wasn't just a matter of you know, well, you know

2279
02:14:47,720 --> 02:14:50,439
this is a place where this is a place, these

2280
02:14:50,479 --> 02:14:52,479
are this is a theater where you know, the Soviets,

2281
02:14:52,520 --> 02:14:55,359
the Americans respect that we can push and not resk,

2282
02:14:55,399 --> 02:14:59,560
triggering you know, the the apocalyptic conflict diad that's gonna

2283
02:14:59,600 --> 02:15:05,239
lead to general nuclear war. And interestingly or fascinatingly, in

2284
02:15:05,319 --> 02:15:07,039
the final phase of the Cold War, which will get

2285
02:15:07,079 --> 02:15:13,640
into later, the real catalysts behind Reagan's five hunder I

2286
02:15:13,640 --> 02:15:16,600
mean it's actually James Webbs, but I mean the the

2287
02:15:16,640 --> 02:15:20,520
Reagan Administration's six hundred ship Navy was that they wanted.

2288
02:15:20,960 --> 02:15:25,880
They wanted nuclear battle platforms and and and and supporting

2289
02:15:26,359 --> 02:15:29,399
the fleet elements. You know, it was essentially like forest forest.

2290
02:15:29,399 --> 02:15:31,199
The Soviet Union War was uppack to fight a two

2291
02:15:31,279 --> 02:15:33,359
front nuclear war, if you can think of nuclear wars

2292
02:15:33,399 --> 02:15:37,560
having a front, a rather two theater nuclear War and this, uh,

2293
02:15:37,920 --> 02:15:43,279
this caused a serious problem from Frank drop of Uh

2294
02:15:43,479 --> 02:15:47,319
a special I mean bresident of it began really under Carter,

2295
02:15:47,479 --> 02:15:49,920
but that that's one of the things that really really

2296
02:15:50,039 --> 02:15:54,279
kind of rooked the Soviet ambitions. Uh. It wasn't just

2297
02:15:54,399 --> 02:15:57,199
the revolution of military affairs and and like the technological

2298
02:15:57,319 --> 02:16:01,840
edge being lost, but getting into the Korean War. And

2299
02:16:01,920 --> 02:16:05,039
again I hope those in't two like scatter Shot. We

2300
02:16:05,079 --> 02:16:08,760
got into the Berlin Airlift last episode, you know, and

2301
02:16:09,119 --> 02:16:11,479
in the Cold War, you know, the Cold War, the

2302
02:16:11,560 --> 02:16:14,039
Cold War it formally kicked off by then, okay, and

2303
02:16:14,079 --> 02:16:17,399
then in nineteen forty nine, the story has developed their

2304
02:16:17,399 --> 02:16:20,239
own atomic capability. You know. We can get into the

2305
02:16:20,359 --> 02:16:24,319
Rosenbergs maybe next episode if you want. I I didn't

2306
02:16:24,359 --> 02:16:25,800
know if you wanted to cover the act. It's kind

2307
02:16:25,800 --> 02:16:27,840
of controversy to you and people's strong feelings about it.

2308
02:16:28,039 --> 02:16:28,840
Speaker 1: Oh, I don't know.

2309
02:16:29,159 --> 02:16:31,199
Speaker 2: No, we need to cover that, Okay, we'll do that

2310
02:16:31,319 --> 02:16:34,520
next next episode. We're gonna deal with the early espionage issues.

2311
02:16:34,559 --> 02:16:37,639
We're gonna deal with like the Cambridge Five and the

2312
02:16:37,760 --> 02:16:42,520
Rosenbergs and Alger Hisss and Roy Khane who prosecuted the Rosenbergs.

2313
02:16:43,000 --> 02:16:45,159
But I want to stay to the Korean War in

2314
02:16:45,200 --> 02:16:48,479
the Orient with this episode. So here we are in

2315
02:16:48,559 --> 02:16:57,079
nineteen fifty Secretaria State Dean Atchison, who he's there's there's

2316
02:16:57,079 --> 02:16:58,840
been a lot of revisionist takes on him that are

2317
02:16:58,840 --> 02:17:04,360
pretty unflattering. But Adisin was kind of a peculiar. I

2318
02:17:04,840 --> 02:17:08,360
think it was kind of anna feat uh aristocrat type

2319
02:17:08,559 --> 02:17:12,239
of the sore of the worst source. But I mean

2320
02:17:12,280 --> 02:17:16,559
that's just my opinion. There's definitely even worse chief diplomats,

2321
02:17:17,399 --> 02:17:22,159
but uh Absison's great blunder. I think it's inarguable. In

2322
02:17:22,239 --> 02:17:26,799
January thirteen, nineteen fifty, you know, mind you this was

2323
02:17:26,840 --> 02:17:30,200
as we talked about, uh, we talked about, you know,

2324
02:17:30,680 --> 02:17:34,120
the desire to draw down conventional forces and rely upon

2325
02:17:34,200 --> 02:17:36,680
that you know, the the the atomic bomb, you know,

2326
02:17:36,760 --> 02:17:40,000
to resolve basically military exigencies, you know, in the threat

2327
02:17:40,040 --> 02:17:44,680
of massive escalation. That this was creating problems as you know,

2328
02:17:44,760 --> 02:17:47,959
the Cold War uh be you know, began to heat

2329
02:17:48,040 --> 02:17:50,440
up in earnest quite literally, but there had not yet

2330
02:17:50,520 --> 02:17:55,000
been an open challenge to uh to Truman. Okay, there

2331
02:17:55,040 --> 02:17:57,120
had not yet been uh, I mean, other than the

2332
02:17:57,159 --> 02:18:01,639
Berlin Blockade, which was I I mean that that was

2333
02:18:01,719 --> 02:18:04,360
that was not a conventional provocation, you know, owing to

2334
02:18:04,399 --> 02:18:08,319
the bizarre occupation regime and the fact that you know,

2335
02:18:08,440 --> 02:18:11,600
Germany was permanently in limbo as a matter of law,

2336
02:18:12,680 --> 02:18:15,479
you know, because there it was, it was quite literally

2337
02:18:15,520 --> 02:18:18,719
under occupation authority, and there was no there was there

2338
02:18:18,799 --> 02:18:20,799
was no end in sight and no pathway to a

2339
02:18:20,840 --> 02:18:25,719
permanent peace treaty emergent. But the the UH, you know,

2340
02:18:25,799 --> 02:18:30,159
the first true kind of challenge UH to UH to

2341
02:18:30,440 --> 02:18:34,840
UH to American burgeening American and Germany was the Korean War.

2342
02:18:35,440 --> 02:18:38,079
And I think of the Korean War and why it

2343
02:18:38,280 --> 02:18:43,719
happened UH as somewhat analogous to why UH the First

2344
02:18:43,799 --> 02:18:47,440
Gulf War happened. It had to do with incorrect signaling

2345
02:18:48,360 --> 02:18:53,760
by UH, by by US diplomats. Like when I say incorrect,

2346
02:18:53,799 --> 02:18:58,520
there really is a correct way to not disclose UH intentions. Well,

2347
02:18:58,520 --> 02:19:02,319
at the same time, the turn reckless acts by you know,

2348
02:19:04,760 --> 02:19:09,959
by national enemies, and that's deplomats must have instincts to

2349
02:19:10,079 --> 02:19:15,360
know when to resort to such measures and must have

2350
02:19:15,479 --> 02:19:18,479
a basic understanding of how to code their language such

2351
02:19:18,559 --> 02:19:21,879
that you know, the signals can be clearly read while

2352
02:19:21,959 --> 02:19:28,000
still you know, keeping keeping potential, keeping intentions, actual potential,

2353
02:19:28,360 --> 02:19:31,200
you know, relatively hidden as need be a sustained credibility.

2354
02:19:31,879 --> 02:19:35,360
But Danaison certainly did not do that. What Deanagison did

2355
02:19:35,479 --> 02:19:40,399
on January thirteenth, nineteen fifty, he addressed he should have

2356
02:19:40,440 --> 02:19:43,040
speech to the National Press Club, and what he said

2357
02:19:43,159 --> 02:19:45,639
was this, When he was asked about, you know, what

2358
02:19:45,760 --> 02:19:49,000
the policy was towards the communists in Asia, he said, Look,

2359
02:19:49,399 --> 02:19:52,200
he literally said, there's a defensive perimeter in Asia. He said,

2360
02:19:52,239 --> 02:19:55,639
the extens from Japan, do the Reikus Islands down to

2361
02:19:55,719 --> 02:19:58,479
the Philippines in the south. So quite literally, if you

2362
02:19:58,520 --> 02:20:00,520
look at a map that consumes kind of a line

2363
02:20:00,680 --> 02:20:06,200
through the Pacific, Okay, within which I mean obviously you know,

2364
02:20:06,360 --> 02:20:09,079
he like you, has sea lanes and things, but basically

2365
02:20:09,399 --> 02:20:11,559
it's it's it's like a it's quite literally like a

2366
02:20:11,639 --> 02:20:20,840
containment barrier, uh, you know, uh, bulwark against the against

2367
02:20:20,920 --> 02:20:24,639
the against the Asian land mass. Okay. Now, Stalin was

2368
02:20:24,680 --> 02:20:28,239
paying attention to this, as was Mao, And the way

2369
02:20:28,319 --> 02:20:30,360
they read that was that, well, you know, despite the

2370
02:20:30,479 --> 02:20:33,399
fact that Korea was under similar occupation in Germany, you know,

2371
02:20:33,479 --> 02:20:37,840
you had you had a you know, you had you

2372
02:20:37,920 --> 02:20:42,399
had a Soviet occupied UH. North you had a briefly

2373
02:20:42,520 --> 02:20:47,319
American and Allied occupied in the south, and then north

2374
02:20:47,360 --> 02:20:50,360
you had this UH kind of cargo cult Stalinist regime.

2375
02:20:50,920 --> 02:20:53,520
And in the South you basically had a military dictator ship,

2376
02:20:53,600 --> 02:20:57,680
but the military that was running it was not particularly capable. However,

2377
02:20:57,719 --> 02:20:59,520
there was not forces in being on the ground in

2378
02:20:59,600 --> 02:21:04,200
the South. UH, they had THEYD left Okay, and UH

2379
02:21:05,280 --> 02:21:10,959
the UH. The the understanding was that America is not

2380
02:21:11,000 --> 02:21:15,280
gonna defend Korea. Okay. Now why Stalin and Mao comed

2381
02:21:15,360 --> 02:21:20,120
in Korea is UH is what's significant because Korea was

2382
02:21:20,239 --> 02:21:25,000
not UH in Germany. And the reason why Korea today

2383
02:21:25,239 --> 02:21:30,760
remains dysfunctional is because it UH. It borders UH both

2384
02:21:30,879 --> 02:21:34,600
China and Russia, and so the striking distance of letty

2385
02:21:34,680 --> 02:21:39,159
vas stock it's a stones throw away from Japan. Like

2386
02:21:39,280 --> 02:21:42,159
quite literally, nobody wants to United Korea, but the Koreans,

2387
02:21:42,399 --> 02:21:46,760
you know, America doesn't. The Russians and Chinese will not tolerated.

2388
02:21:46,840 --> 02:21:52,559
Japan would not tolerated. This both supersedes and transcends UH

2389
02:21:52,719 --> 02:21:57,280
Cold War rivalries now obsolescent, but also UH but but

2390
02:21:57,440 --> 02:22:00,280
also as far less of a of a of a

2391
02:22:00,360 --> 02:22:05,920
potential conflict. Diad that that that could result in true

2392
02:22:06,639 --> 02:22:10,680
catastrophic escalation. It became that way because I'm a carthon.

2393
02:22:10,719 --> 02:22:15,360
We'll get to that in a minute. Okay, Now what

2394
02:22:15,559 --> 02:22:22,159
happened months later was on June twenty fifth, UH, the

2395
02:22:22,239 --> 02:22:25,159
North North Prey launched and massive assault of of the South.

2396
02:22:26,319 --> 02:22:30,040
It was a Sunday. President Truman. UH was at home

2397
02:22:30,079 --> 02:22:33,239
in Missouri, away from Washington. Dean Atchison was in Maryland

2398
02:22:33,319 --> 02:22:38,280
at his gentleman's farm. Henry Nis, who people the name

2399
02:22:38,319 --> 02:22:41,760
people were recognized from our earlier episodes did so, was

2400
02:22:41,799 --> 02:22:44,840
the Secretary of Defense. He was not a fishing trip

2401
02:22:44,920 --> 02:22:48,079
in New Brunswick, but nitsad. Decades later, he was the

2402
02:22:48,120 --> 02:22:52,319
principal architect of the Team Be exercise. He was a

2403
02:22:52,440 --> 02:22:58,000
huge early neo conservative, okay, massive extreme Cold War hawk.

2404
02:22:59,639 --> 02:23:02,479
He was the author of National Security Council Paper sixty eight,

2405
02:23:02,680 --> 02:23:07,120
which was drafted in April of nineteen fifty, and that

2406
02:23:07,239 --> 02:23:11,200
was one of the most important policy blueprints or policy

2407
02:23:11,239 --> 02:23:16,360
statements of the Cold War. It provided it provided the

2408
02:23:16,479 --> 02:23:21,479
roadmap for the permanent militarization of America of both conventional

2409
02:23:21,600 --> 02:23:25,719
forces and in strategic nuclear forces. From you know from

2410
02:23:25,920 --> 02:23:29,520
the time it was written the ninety nineteen fifty until

2411
02:23:29,680 --> 02:23:32,600
you know, the Soviet Union collapsed, you know, forty years later.

2412
02:23:34,559 --> 02:23:37,440
So he was a hugely significant guy, Okay, and uh,

2413
02:23:38,239 --> 02:23:42,000
his first, uh, his first kind of challenge political nature

2414
02:23:42,719 --> 02:23:46,399
was uh, was was butting heads with with you know,

2415
02:23:46,719 --> 02:23:50,200
mister George Kennan. And we we discussed earlier. I mean

2416
02:23:50,319 --> 02:23:53,479
Kennon obviously from what we discussed about him, and you know,

2417
02:23:53,639 --> 02:23:56,399
from what we've talked about or is this kind of

2418
02:23:56,440 --> 02:23:59,120
basic traits and character and it's kind of it's kind

2419
02:23:59,159 --> 02:24:03,079
of decency in his basic sense of caution. I mean,

2420
02:24:03,120 --> 02:24:05,000
he believed very much in strong defense, but you know,

2421
02:24:05,079 --> 02:24:08,000
the cautious application of force and the service they're in.

2422
02:24:10,479 --> 02:24:12,840
Kenn was one of the few men whatever people can say.

2423
02:24:12,879 --> 02:24:14,959
I mean, we'll get into why this isn't a minute.

2424
02:24:15,000 --> 02:24:17,360
But Kenan was really savaged in the era, in the

2425
02:24:17,440 --> 02:24:21,399
epoch by his opponents, including people like Mitza, you know,

2426
02:24:21,479 --> 02:24:25,200
for being you know, soft on communism and conciliatory towards

2427
02:24:25,239 --> 02:24:28,639
the Soviets. But kenn Uh, he had been adamant for

2428
02:24:28,879 --> 02:24:33,520
once prior to to the June twenty fifth that there

2429
02:24:33,559 --> 02:24:36,920
were definite indicators of communist military activity in Asia and

2430
02:24:37,000 --> 02:24:39,319
that they were going to assault somewhere. It was not

2431
02:24:39,479 --> 02:24:42,760
clear where the theater would be for such activity and

2432
02:24:42,879 --> 02:24:45,959
what the point of concentration would be and what would

2433
02:24:45,959 --> 02:24:50,479
be prioritized they're in but MacArthur staven Tokyo just did not.

2434
02:24:50,559 --> 02:24:52,559
They just disregard him entirely. They're like, this guy's in

2435
02:24:52,559 --> 02:24:54,959
the egg ahead, he's never been in uniform. He isn't

2436
02:24:54,959 --> 02:24:57,520
what the fuck he's talking about, and he can't even

2437
02:24:57,600 --> 02:25:00,559
you know, provide us conceptual model of like where this

2438
02:25:00,680 --> 02:25:03,319
is gonna jump off, you know, and what what we're

2439
02:25:03,360 --> 02:25:06,600
gonna forces, it's gonna entail, you know, and what and

2440
02:25:07,159 --> 02:25:10,040
what what what feeder is gonna be the primary area

2441
02:25:10,040 --> 02:25:15,760
of operation. So they totally disregarded it. Okay, but this

2442
02:25:16,000 --> 02:25:17,520
uh to give you an idea of kind of how

2443
02:25:17,600 --> 02:25:24,719
fubar the National security Estalishman was neither Truman, nor uh

2444
02:25:25,239 --> 02:25:30,280
Nis nor Atchison. It wasn't until they returned to Washington

2445
02:25:30,360 --> 02:25:34,559
from their respective you know, vacations that uh they found

2446
02:25:34,600 --> 02:25:36,399
out that Career was going to ressault because they saw

2447
02:25:36,440 --> 02:25:40,239
the newspaper lines. Okay, there was no structure in place

2448
02:25:40,360 --> 02:25:46,760
of of you know, notifying national command authorities of a

2449
02:25:46,799 --> 02:25:51,079
wartime emergency and branded. I mean, this was that this

2450
02:25:51,319 --> 02:25:53,680
was the dawn of the atomic age. But it doesn't matter.

2451
02:25:53,799 --> 02:25:56,360
I mean a you know, America, for better or worse,

2452
02:25:56,440 --> 02:25:59,920
had had had just come off of a total mobilization

2453
02:26:00,079 --> 02:26:02,559
and then you know, a mansion two front war. It

2454
02:26:02,639 --> 02:26:08,120
was unprecedented in scope, scale and intensity, so impossible to

2455
02:26:08,639 --> 02:26:13,639
rationalize as it is. That's the way things were when

2456
02:26:13,760 --> 02:26:17,799
Kenon uh arright that night. Kennon Ken at this point

2457
02:26:17,879 --> 02:26:22,239
was something of a minister without portfolio. Okay, Uh, he was.

2458
02:26:22,440 --> 02:26:24,479
He'd been dismissed, as you know, the kind of quasi

2459
02:26:24,600 --> 02:26:28,159
regent of the Department of State in Moscow. He'd ended

2460
02:26:28,200 --> 02:26:32,079
his tenure as a special consultant to the National Security Advisor.

2461
02:26:32,799 --> 02:26:36,319
But he, I mean, Ken was always in the executive orbit, okay,

2462
02:26:37,079 --> 02:26:40,479
because he was a brilliant guy and he uh, he

2463
02:26:40,559 --> 02:26:42,440
was the he was the foremost expert in the Soviet

2464
02:26:42,520 --> 02:26:47,040
Union and the Rush and Russian culture. Okay. The evening,

2465
02:26:48,159 --> 02:26:51,239
I'm sorry, evening at June twenty fifth, Kennon double time

2466
02:26:51,319 --> 02:26:56,120
to the Department of State and he said, look, he said,

2467
02:26:56,120 --> 02:26:59,760
the critical strategic matter here is that formosa Taiwan has

2468
02:26:59,799 --> 02:27:02,879
to be defended. He's like, if this is a general push,

2469
02:27:05,440 --> 02:27:08,719
and it may well be, you know, he said, Uh,

2470
02:27:09,639 --> 02:27:11,680
the secondary of Soul is the soult in South Korea,

2471
02:27:11,959 --> 02:27:16,079
the primary cult is gonna be on Formosa, and ultimately, uh,

2472
02:27:16,399 --> 02:27:20,040
there's gonna be a massive assault in Japan. Okay. If

2473
02:27:20,120 --> 02:27:23,079
if the Soviets are going all in in Asia and uh,

2474
02:27:23,360 --> 02:27:26,360
the Chinese, their Chinese proxies are going all in where

2475
02:27:26,440 --> 02:27:28,159
we're gonna we're gonna be We're gonna fight a world

2476
02:27:28,239 --> 02:27:36,600
war Japan, okay, which is very interesting. And uh, Taiwan

2477
02:27:36,760 --> 02:27:41,079
is interesting because Taiwan is actually zero strategic significant today.

2478
02:27:41,559 --> 02:27:43,719
And it shows you like the raw delusion of these

2479
02:27:43,920 --> 02:27:48,280
of these of these bizarre fucking idiots, like like missus Pelosi,

2480
02:27:48,360 --> 02:27:50,680
mister Biden, that they pretend that it's nineteen fifty and

2481
02:27:50,760 --> 02:27:53,520
that this matters, or that they actually have you know,

2482
02:27:53,840 --> 02:27:55,680
not only is there no steak in Taiwan, but this

2483
02:27:55,840 --> 02:27:59,200
idea that if I mean, if an American carry group

2484
02:27:59,280 --> 02:28:01,719
showed up declared the Taiwanese until the twenty two that

2485
02:28:01,840 --> 02:28:04,920
we're gonna defend you, like, they'd be totally befuddled. And

2486
02:28:04,959 --> 02:28:06,879
then they laugh in their face. You know, I mean

2487
02:28:06,920 --> 02:28:12,079
it's uh, it's incredible. But in nineteen fifty UH had

2488
02:28:12,120 --> 02:28:15,879
Taiwan fallen and had that ben you know, the like

2489
02:28:16,040 --> 02:28:22,760
Moscow and Stalin's ambition. Ken was absolutely right the and UH,

2490
02:28:23,000 --> 02:28:25,120
as we will see as we get deeper into this series,

2491
02:28:26,799 --> 02:28:30,239
the Soviets put remarkable pressure on Japan, and then the

2492
02:28:30,319 --> 02:28:33,079
Soviets roy is seeking out a weak spot as kind

2493
02:28:33,079 --> 02:28:37,399
of their counterweight to UH to UH to the situation

2494
02:28:37,559 --> 02:28:40,719
in Berlin especially and and the inner German border generally.

2495
02:28:41,360 --> 02:28:44,920
And that's when underlay cruise shifts on the serves amparently

2496
02:28:45,000 --> 02:28:50,440
reckless deployment a strategic nuclear forces at Cuba, which blew

2497
02:28:50,520 --> 02:28:55,639
up in his face. But UH, the UH finding a

2498
02:28:55,920 --> 02:28:59,200
finding a if the Soviets had been able to find

2499
02:28:59,440 --> 02:29:03,360
a soft spot as it were in uh the Asian

2500
02:29:03,959 --> 02:29:09,920
UH defense paradigm or structure rather wherein they could squeeze

2501
02:29:10,000 --> 02:29:12,600
Japan with a combination of you know, a hard power

2502
02:29:12,760 --> 02:29:21,399
threat and and soft power UH UH insteadivization, UH America

2503
02:29:21,399 --> 02:29:24,159
would have had a real problem in that regard. So

2504
02:29:24,319 --> 02:29:28,120
Ken was not just you know, dropping wild doomsday scenarios,

2505
02:29:28,120 --> 02:29:32,200
and what he was saying was very possible as it

2506
02:29:32,520 --> 02:29:37,239
was I Uh, I think I think Stalin was. Uh.

2507
02:29:37,760 --> 02:29:41,520
I think Stalin was testing Mau's loyalty and uh the

2508
02:29:41,600 --> 02:29:45,399
side still get split as complicated. There's profound cultural variables

2509
02:29:45,440 --> 02:29:48,600
there as well as political ones, as well as simple

2510
02:29:48,760 --> 02:29:51,120
uh well as well as things as simple as you

2511
02:29:51,200 --> 02:29:54,520
know the uh like like dang who was you know,

2512
02:29:54,520 --> 02:29:58,120
who's the shadow executive? I mean basically, after after mild

2513
02:29:58,159 --> 02:30:01,319
and after the Gang of Four got he was finding

2514
02:30:01,399 --> 02:30:03,879
this somewhat greedy and and so were and so was

2515
02:30:03,959 --> 02:30:06,239
his inner coterie and and and men like him and

2516
02:30:06,520 --> 02:30:12,520
men like them can be blocked. But also the reason

2517
02:30:12,600 --> 02:30:14,840
why uh it was it wasn't just owing to the

2518
02:30:14,920 --> 02:30:20,799
kind of nascent uh nascent uh nature of of the

2519
02:30:21,239 --> 02:30:24,879
of the of the Cold War paradigm during the last

2520
02:30:24,959 --> 02:30:28,520
years of Stalin's life. That that that that Pey king

2521
02:30:29,200 --> 02:30:32,600
was in basically unconditional alliance with Moscow is because they

2522
02:30:32,600 --> 02:30:34,559
were they were well to Stalin. I mean, Stalin was

2523
02:30:34,559 --> 02:30:37,159
a remarkable person. I maintained he was probably the most

2524
02:30:37,159 --> 02:30:41,600
powerful man who ever lived. Okay, hands down, But the

2525
02:30:43,079 --> 02:30:48,159
as Kenyon came to realize, uh, China very much was

2526
02:30:48,520 --> 02:30:51,120
the Soviet Union's proxy, and he treated it very much

2527
02:30:51,159 --> 02:30:54,680
like a client state, I mean a very important client state.

2528
02:30:55,120 --> 02:31:00,159
One was potentially great UH power, political potential and uh

2529
02:31:00,879 --> 02:31:05,399
military mobilizing potential. But nevertheless they very much treated them like, uh,

2530
02:31:06,520 --> 02:31:09,440
like a somewhat inferior race. Okay, not to be crass

2531
02:31:09,520 --> 02:31:15,799
about it. That is the reality of the situation. Kenda maintained,

2532
02:31:17,680 --> 02:31:21,040
you know, UH in that same vein like here, first

2533
02:31:21,040 --> 02:31:23,760
of all, like how how how is Truman able to

2534
02:31:23,799 --> 02:31:29,520
corral this this, this whole UH coalition effort. And again

2535
02:31:29,959 --> 02:31:32,440
the parallel with with the goal for stands out here,

2536
02:31:32,840 --> 02:31:35,959
although the way in which the coalition was uh was

2537
02:31:36,040 --> 02:31:39,799
corral is quite different. The USSR was boycotting the United

2538
02:31:39,879 --> 02:31:43,079
Nations at this point. Okay. Now, as as people probably know,

2539
02:31:44,200 --> 02:31:46,120
the Soviet Union had a permanent seat in the UN

2540
02:31:46,200 --> 02:31:49,879
Security Council. The UN Security Council access the defect will

2541
02:31:49,959 --> 02:31:52,319
higher House of the UN. If you're gonna look at

2542
02:31:52,319 --> 02:31:56,799
the UN as like a unit camera legislature of Nations, uh,

2543
02:31:57,520 --> 02:31:59,920
any permanent member of the Security Council was at veto

2544
02:32:00,040 --> 02:32:02,959
on any resolution. Okay, the Soviet Union, a boy was

2545
02:32:03,040 --> 02:32:06,680
boycotting this the UN. So they simply were their seat

2546
02:32:06,760 --> 02:32:09,920
was vacant. And why were they boycotting the UN. They're

2547
02:32:09,920 --> 02:32:12,680
a boycotting the UN because their proxy China had not

2548
02:32:13,079 --> 02:32:15,639
the UN and not permitted them to be set seated. Okay,

2549
02:32:15,760 --> 02:32:19,360
there was there's this absurd situation where the Americans were

2550
02:32:19,399 --> 02:32:22,120
demanding that chank I Scheck's government done from osa he

2551
02:32:22,159 --> 02:32:27,719
recognizes the true government of China. I I mean, I mean,

2552
02:32:28,200 --> 02:32:30,440
when you're sitting in pet king and you've got dominion

2553
02:32:30,479 --> 02:32:34,040
over nine nine hundred million people, you know, declaring like

2554
02:32:34,120 --> 02:32:35,639
you know, the guys on that you know, little island

2555
02:32:35,680 --> 02:32:38,479
over there, the real government, there's something that there's something

2556
02:32:38,520 --> 02:32:41,319
satirical about that. But this is why the Soviets were

2557
02:32:41,360 --> 02:32:46,959
boycotting the U. N That's when Truman, uh, through Antison,

2558
02:32:47,399 --> 02:32:49,520
you know, said look, you know this is this isn't

2559
02:32:49,559 --> 02:32:53,920
this is thet gregious violation of international law. You know, uh,

2560
02:32:54,639 --> 02:32:57,719
the the communists are are you know, in the front

2561
02:32:57,719 --> 02:33:00,360
that decency and you know, the the you know, the

2562
02:33:01,000 --> 02:33:04,319
the more is the civilized commnitiyan nations of assaulted Korea.

2563
02:33:04,399 --> 02:33:07,959
This this marvelous nass and democracy. You know, we we

2564
02:33:08,079 --> 02:33:12,040
we've got to rush to his defense. So that's what happened. Okay, Truman. Uh,

2565
02:33:13,120 --> 02:33:15,639
Truman wasn't any gonna, wasn't any kind of pure Wilsonian,

2566
02:33:15,719 --> 02:33:17,799
but he was like a liberal internationalist. So this this

2567
02:33:17,920 --> 02:33:19,719
kind of stuff really got him excited. He really he

2568
02:33:19,799 --> 02:33:25,040
really dug that sh and frankly, uh, politically it was uh,

2569
02:33:25,680 --> 02:33:27,840
it was a savvy move, Okay, I mean granted it's

2570
02:33:28,040 --> 02:33:30,200
Truman didn't do anything to facilitated and it was the

2571
02:33:30,280 --> 02:33:33,079
Soviets who were, you know, playing typical kind of comedy

2572
02:33:33,159 --> 02:33:37,120
games that uh, you know of a political theatrical nature

2573
02:33:37,159 --> 02:33:41,639
that facilitated it. But that's what happened. Now back to Kennon.

2574
02:33:42,639 --> 02:33:44,639
Kennon is observing all of this, and he's growing very

2575
02:33:44,680 --> 02:33:48,760
concerned because Kennon knows MacArthur pretty well and MacArthur was

2576
02:33:48,840 --> 02:33:52,719
just a weird guy. Uh. He lived with his parents

2577
02:33:54,000 --> 02:33:57,479
pretty much his whole life until he was pretty old.

2578
02:33:59,840 --> 02:34:02,559
He uh, he was immature, not in the way that

2579
02:34:02,719 --> 02:34:04,879
Churchill was like, he wasn't he wasn't like this kind

2580
02:34:04,879 --> 02:34:07,399
of buffoonish piggy drunk who was playing with army men

2581
02:34:07,520 --> 02:34:10,799
at age you know, twenty five. But he, like MacArthur,

2582
02:34:10,879 --> 02:34:15,360
had this kind of His father was a Medal of

2583
02:34:15,440 --> 02:34:17,520
Honor recipient who fought for the Union Army in the

2584
02:34:17,559 --> 02:34:21,959
ward due in the States. MacArthur himself, uh, he was

2585
02:34:22,000 --> 02:34:24,159
awarded the Medal of Honor in this in this anti

2586
02:34:24,360 --> 02:34:28,000
bandit action in the Pancho Villa era. But it was

2587
02:34:28,120 --> 02:34:32,680
strange and like it, it seemed very much like MacArthur

2588
02:34:32,840 --> 02:34:35,280
kind of coveted this medal of honor and he created

2589
02:34:35,360 --> 02:34:38,079
circumstances we're in. He could, he could, he could grab one,

2590
02:34:38,159 --> 02:34:40,239
but got a spinning facts in such a way that

2591
02:34:40,280 --> 02:34:43,280
would appeal to the you know, to the uh, to

2592
02:34:43,399 --> 02:34:46,840
those you know, commissioning such an award. He was not

2593
02:34:46,920 --> 02:34:50,200
a very attractive guy. And aside from that, there's a

2594
02:34:50,280 --> 02:34:54,600
reason why he was uh. He was sent to the

2595
02:34:54,639 --> 02:34:57,520
Pacific Theater. The Pacific Theater was an it was a

2596
02:34:57,680 --> 02:35:01,719
navy show. Okay. Now the runts there, those guys suffered

2597
02:35:01,799 --> 02:35:04,559
like nobody else, Okay, and they fought harder than anybody else.

2598
02:35:04,600 --> 02:35:07,280
I'm not saying that at all, but the Army in

2599
02:35:08,159 --> 02:35:13,600
in the Pacific War, they really were not center stage.

2600
02:35:14,280 --> 02:35:18,319
And that's like, uh something if you're one of the

2601
02:35:18,319 --> 02:35:19,920
reasons I like the film The Thin Red Line because

2602
02:35:19,920 --> 02:35:21,479
it's one of the few reasons it's about the army

2603
02:35:21,639 --> 02:35:23,719
in uh in the Pacific War, you know, not the

2604
02:35:23,799 --> 02:35:27,159
Marine Corps. And you get a sense of these guys

2605
02:35:28,000 --> 02:35:32,520
being literally in the middle of nowhere, and desertion in

2606
02:35:32,600 --> 02:35:35,040
the Pacific was almost zero because there's nowhere to desert too.

2607
02:35:35,520 --> 02:35:38,280
You know, you were in this green hell uh a

2608
02:35:38,360 --> 02:35:40,840
lot of time they weren't getting the gear they needed.

2609
02:35:42,440 --> 02:35:45,479
You know, things have become totally savage by this point.

2610
02:35:46,520 --> 02:35:49,680
But you know all that aside, I mean that that

2611
02:35:50,200 --> 02:35:52,600
that that there's enough there to constitute an episode and

2612
02:35:52,680 --> 02:35:55,520
the so own right, But the key takeaway is that

2613
02:35:55,600 --> 02:35:58,319
there's a reason why MacArthur was not given some theater

2614
02:35:58,399 --> 02:36:00,959
white command. You there's a reason why he wasn't given

2615
02:36:01,000 --> 02:36:03,639
an armored corps in Europe. Okay, there's the reason why

2616
02:36:03,639 --> 02:36:05,799
he was sent in the Pacific, where he was basically

2617
02:36:05,959 --> 02:36:09,239
under the thumb a guy's like Nimic's okay, because he

2618
02:36:09,319 --> 02:36:11,799
was a cowboy, he was a glory hound, and by

2619
02:36:11,840 --> 02:36:15,159
this point he was basically he was basically running Japan

2620
02:36:15,440 --> 02:36:18,239
like like like some kind of swaggering Cardillo, you know,

2621
02:36:18,360 --> 02:36:20,280
or some kind of like great white hunter or something.

2622
02:36:21,000 --> 02:36:25,399
And what, uh, what Kennon's view was is I don't

2623
02:36:25,399 --> 02:36:27,680
know what the hell this guy is gonna do. You

2624
02:36:27,760 --> 02:36:30,559
know Kennon's view as well. You know, MacArthur is in

2625
02:36:30,600 --> 02:36:34,559
his element with this, uh you know, if if, if,

2626
02:36:34,719 --> 02:36:37,639
if he sticks the mission and orientation of liberating Republic

2627
02:36:37,680 --> 02:36:40,399
of Korea. But in MacArthur decides he wants to collect

2628
02:36:40,440 --> 02:36:43,600
more medals and marcive led Evostok he's gonna start World

2629
02:36:43,639 --> 02:36:46,920
War three, you know. Now, I know there's like the

2630
02:36:46,959 --> 02:36:50,600
stupid cliche uh of a fucking idiots who were always

2631
02:36:50,639 --> 02:36:53,600
like talking about like, you know, talking about like general officers, like, oh,

2632
02:36:53,680 --> 02:36:56,799
there's some crazy generals gonna do something like not at

2633
02:36:56,799 --> 02:37:00,879
that times. That's a fucking retarded take. Butcars MacArthur's MacArthur

2634
02:37:01,000 --> 02:37:05,559
did crazy shit, and he didn't he didn't really respect

2635
02:37:05,600 --> 02:37:14,799
the chain of command, and kenn uh what Kenyon did was, Uh, Kenon,

2636
02:37:15,559 --> 02:37:20,760
he began very publicly saying, look, and this is fascinating

2637
02:37:20,879 --> 02:37:25,040
because in presage is obviously what ultimately resolved the Cold

2638
02:37:25,120 --> 02:37:29,799
War and what mister Nixon and Kissinger did. Kennon said, look,

2639
02:37:30,239 --> 02:37:32,440
he's like, we need to give MacArthur a free hand

2640
02:37:32,520 --> 02:37:36,000
in operational terms, so long as the mission remains limited

2641
02:37:36,000 --> 02:37:38,600
to the reliberation of of of their public career, not

2642
02:37:38,719 --> 02:37:44,600
the Congress in the North. He's like, concovenantly simultaneously, he's like,

2643
02:37:44,639 --> 02:37:48,000
we need to offer Beijing inducements to not cooperate with USSR.

2644
02:37:48,879 --> 02:37:52,079
You know. He's like, we should even offer them a

2645
02:37:52,159 --> 02:37:54,959
permanent seat on the UN Security Council if they're willing

2646
02:37:55,000 --> 02:37:58,959
to formally break with Moscow. Uh, And we should tell

2647
02:37:59,000 --> 02:38:00,879
him that, you know, a further dom is we will

2648
02:38:00,959 --> 02:38:05,360
recognize them unconditionally as a sole representative of the Chinese governments. Now,

2649
02:38:06,719 --> 02:38:10,360
John Foster Dulles wouldn't berserk when when Kennon said this,

2650
02:38:11,280 --> 02:38:14,719
and people are saying that Kennon was there, they were

2651
02:38:14,760 --> 02:38:16,520
they were saying he'd been like gotten to by the

2652
02:38:16,600 --> 02:38:19,959
Soviets because like awful slanderous things. He was literally just

2653
02:38:20,040 --> 02:38:25,040
shouted down and this really really hurt him. Okay, Uh,

2654
02:38:25,600 --> 02:38:29,079
As the Korean War started to go very poorly, and uh,

2655
02:38:29,920 --> 02:38:31,399
despite what they I don't I have no idea what

2656
02:38:31,440 --> 02:38:33,159
the age kids in school about this, But the Korean

2657
02:38:33,200 --> 02:38:36,120
War was incredibly unpopular. It was incredibly brutal, it was

2658
02:38:36,200 --> 02:38:42,959
incredibly bloody, you know, it was uh, and not not

2659
02:38:43,079 --> 02:38:46,879
in like Vietnam, in all kinds of ways. Okay, I

2660
02:38:46,879 --> 02:38:48,799
don't want to go through a laundry list of grotesque

2661
02:38:48,840 --> 02:38:51,040
things that happened. And and the awful thing is the

2662
02:38:51,040 --> 02:38:52,799
guy who had to go there suffered through. But there

2663
02:38:52,840 --> 02:38:56,360
was a lot of commonality, Okay, not just owing to

2664
02:38:56,440 --> 02:38:59,000
the owing to the fact that we're talking about, you know,

2665
02:39:00,280 --> 02:39:07,399
Asian battlefeaters. But this, uh, this really, uh this this

2666
02:39:07,559 --> 02:39:11,559
really Kenyon. Kenyon really got kind of sandbagged until uh

2667
02:39:12,000 --> 02:39:15,719
until the Eyesenhower era. Well we'll get into that too

2668
02:39:16,239 --> 02:39:18,399
as we progress. Also, we're gonna come back to Cannon

2669
02:39:18,440 --> 02:39:20,559
again and again now just because I've got a huge

2670
02:39:20,639 --> 02:39:23,040
escheme for Kennon. But he's a key player in the

2671
02:39:23,120 --> 02:39:26,040
Cold War. And like I said it, uh I, I

2672
02:39:26,159 --> 02:39:28,600
give Nixon all credit for the facility in the Sino

2673
02:39:28,680 --> 02:39:32,360
Soviets split, because he's the man who actually facilitated it

2674
02:39:32,399 --> 02:39:35,639
in an executive role. Conceptually, this was this was George

2675
02:39:35,719 --> 02:39:40,920
Kennon's kind of augury and instinct for for uh, for

2676
02:39:41,079 --> 02:39:51,520
hard power politics. But as the war dragged on, Truman

2677
02:39:51,600 --> 02:39:55,159
did increase naval patrols and and just overall naval present

2678
02:39:55,239 --> 02:39:59,159
the Pacific and especially in the Taie went straight and

2679
02:39:59,360 --> 02:40:04,799
hugely signed, huge significance Truman Beige basically bankrolling the French

2680
02:40:04,879 --> 02:40:07,719
War and into shining against the viet min Okay, and uh,

2681
02:40:08,079 --> 02:40:11,040
you know, America's involvement in into China goes back to

2682
02:40:11,120 --> 02:40:14,840
the late forties in some capacity. And uh, this idea,

2683
02:40:14,959 --> 02:40:17,639
this kind of Oliver Stone Howard, is an idea that like,

2684
02:40:18,159 --> 02:40:20,239
you know, Vietnam was a lie man and look at

2685
02:40:20,239 --> 02:40:22,840
a bunch of fish as generals and capitalists just decided

2686
02:40:22,879 --> 02:40:24,959
to fight a war there. Like that's not true at all,

2687
02:40:25,799 --> 02:40:29,440
and it's not okay, and you've got to look at

2688
02:40:29,920 --> 02:40:32,120
you gotta look at Korea, You've got to look at Vietnam.

2689
02:40:32,159 --> 02:40:34,319
You've gotta look at this entire paradigm I talked about

2690
02:40:34,360 --> 02:40:37,719
that ultimately kind of resolved in uh, this sort of

2691
02:40:37,799 --> 02:40:42,360
massive escalation or yeah, massive escalation of forces and being

2692
02:40:42,559 --> 02:40:44,760
in the Pacific, you know, in the Reagan area. You

2693
02:40:44,760 --> 02:40:45,920
gotta look at this. It's all part of like a

2694
02:40:46,000 --> 02:40:54,200
common paradigm. Okay, you can't look at these things in isolation. Now.

2695
02:40:56,440 --> 02:40:59,079
What Kennon did do during this time is he started

2696
02:40:59,120 --> 02:41:02,959
writing a lot in policy journals. Okay, and he kind

2697
02:41:02,959 --> 02:41:06,760
of back in those days, you still had public intellectuals

2698
02:41:06,799 --> 02:41:10,559
that we talked about, and Kennon first and foremost among

2699
02:41:11,239 --> 02:41:15,200
among socially, among social science types and political theorist types.

2700
02:41:15,680 --> 02:41:18,959
I mean, he was he was the king, Okay. So

2701
02:41:19,079 --> 02:41:21,120
Kenny started kind of making his case to the American

2702
02:41:21,200 --> 02:41:24,239
people and to kind of like you know, uh and

2703
02:41:24,520 --> 02:41:27,159
kind of like the learned you know, uh like top

2704
02:41:27,280 --> 02:41:33,440
layer of h the civilian world and Kennya's plan for uh.

2705
02:41:33,959 --> 02:41:35,639
I mean, we we think of history in the rearview

2706
02:41:35,639 --> 02:41:38,440
mirrorcause that's inevitable. Everybody comes to Monday morning quarterback when

2707
02:41:38,440 --> 02:41:42,200
they're like looking backwards. Kenna was pretty convinced, along with

2708
02:41:42,280 --> 02:41:45,879
everybody else, that there was probably gonna be there's probably

2709
02:41:45,959 --> 02:41:49,520
gonna be a world war within several years, and at

2710
02:41:49,559 --> 02:41:51,879
some point there was gonna be a catastrophic nuclear war.

2711
02:41:52,200 --> 02:41:54,840
That was inevitable in his view. And I understand why

2712
02:41:54,920 --> 02:42:00,559
you thought that. And Frankly had had growichav and Reagan

2713
02:42:00,639 --> 02:42:05,559
not found a way to end end that, uh, that

2714
02:42:05,719 --> 02:42:08,239
paradigm uh there there would abstutely would have been at

2715
02:42:08,280 --> 02:42:10,639
some point, you know, being in nineteen ninety three, two

2716
02:42:10,639 --> 02:42:13,440
thousand and three, two thousand and thirty three, it would

2717
02:42:13,479 --> 02:42:17,280
have happened eventually, but I'm sorry you calling it so

2718
02:42:17,319 --> 02:42:23,000
I've been another weather. But uh, the Kenon view was this, Okay,

2719
02:42:23,079 --> 02:42:25,520
this is this was Kennon's kind of grand design for

2720
02:42:25,639 --> 02:42:28,840
how to not to de escalate, but like get out

2721
02:42:28,879 --> 02:42:31,680
of the Cold War without without seeding ground to the

2722
02:42:31,760 --> 02:42:37,280
point that America is totally compromised. Okay, he said, there's

2723
02:42:37,280 --> 02:42:39,440
got to be looking a comprehensive settlement with the Soviets

2724
02:42:39,440 --> 02:42:43,680
that would terminate astillities in Korea because because if if,

2725
02:42:43,799 --> 02:42:46,680
if hostilities went on in definitely He's like, eventually, you know,

2726
02:42:47,000 --> 02:42:49,079
the Chinese by then, where you know, we're fighting a

2727
02:42:49,120 --> 02:42:52,000
general war on the peninsula against the U went that

2728
02:42:52,040 --> 02:42:55,120
American let you went forces. You know, He's like, eventually

2729
02:42:55,159 --> 02:42:57,600
they're either gonna get the upper hand or we're gonna escalate,

2730
02:42:57,680 --> 02:42:59,479
or we're gonna find ourselves in a general war with

2731
02:42:59,559 --> 02:43:02,079
the Soviet in the Chinese. So we've got to find

2732
02:43:02,280 --> 02:43:03,600
some kind of way of pull a plug on this

2733
02:43:04,879 --> 02:43:06,840
and go back to pre war you know, presumably go

2734
02:43:06,920 --> 02:43:09,840
back to pre war lines of demarcation. In the thirtieth parallel,

2735
02:43:10,479 --> 02:43:12,319
he was like, we got to admit that People's Republic

2736
02:43:12,719 --> 02:43:15,719
China the United Nations in some capacity. Okay, even if

2737
02:43:15,719 --> 02:43:17,879
we're not gonna give him a permanent seat on the

2738
02:43:17,879 --> 02:43:21,000
Security Council, we can't pretend this government is not legitimate.

2739
02:43:21,159 --> 02:43:23,799
There's a billion people who live under this government. You know,

2740
02:43:23,879 --> 02:43:27,120
they're they're they're they're the third most powerful state on

2741
02:43:27,239 --> 02:43:32,000
this planet. This is ridiculous. He's like kind of coma,

2742
02:43:32,079 --> 02:43:33,799
and we need to we need to allow a PLEBIS

2743
02:43:33,799 --> 02:43:36,399
site and Derman Taiwan's future and Kenya's like, don't worry,

2744
02:43:36,440 --> 02:43:39,680
the Taiwanese are gonna overwhelmingly vote for independence. But he's like,

2745
02:43:39,799 --> 02:43:42,239
we've got to do it. And uh, we've got to

2746
02:43:42,360 --> 02:43:45,600
allow third party monitors, you know, so that it's they

2747
02:43:45,639 --> 02:43:48,319
can just be said that, you know, these Taiwanese are

2748
02:43:48,600 --> 02:43:50,600
are under the heel of some called Billow, who in

2749
02:43:50,680 --> 02:43:53,239
turn is taking orders from the White Man or whatever. Okay.

2750
02:43:55,200 --> 02:43:58,159
And finally, and finally, this is a this is most

2751
02:43:58,200 --> 02:44:03,520
significant and this is fast. Kenn said, to prevent massive

2752
02:44:03,639 --> 02:44:09,959
escalation in in the Pacific theater, and uh, to Aviy

2753
02:44:10,200 --> 02:44:14,000
was probably you know, gonna this paradigm that is probably

2754
02:44:14,000 --> 02:44:16,040
gonna result in a nuclear war. He's like, we need

2755
02:44:16,079 --> 02:44:19,159
to bring about a neutral and de militarized Japan. Uh No,

2756
02:44:19,520 --> 02:44:22,799
no U S Force is there, you know, No, uh no,

2757
02:44:23,159 --> 02:44:25,559
not not not even a token kind of Japanese army.

2758
02:44:26,000 --> 02:44:28,200
You know. He's like, Japan, Japan needs to become just

2759
02:44:28,239 --> 02:44:33,280
the neutrals on okay, And uh that's the only way

2760
02:44:33,639 --> 02:44:37,680
moving forward. Uh, We're gonna keep it off the table,

2761
02:44:37,799 --> 02:44:40,719
as you know, the it's kind of like the prize

2762
02:44:40,959 --> 02:44:47,239
objective in the Pacific. And also this is long forgotten

2763
02:44:47,280 --> 02:44:51,680
to history, other than there's a you occasionally come across

2764
02:44:51,840 --> 02:44:55,760
copy uh, mostly like grand students come across headlines from

2765
02:44:55,760 --> 02:44:58,719
the seventies and stuff. When the Japanese Red Army faction

2766
02:44:59,399 --> 02:45:01,639
was killing p people because they dropped a lot of bodies.

2767
02:45:01,959 --> 02:45:05,719
But communism had real momentum in Japan, it was entirely

2768
02:45:05,760 --> 02:45:09,920
possible that Japan would go red. Okay, that's a whole

2769
02:45:09,959 --> 02:45:12,920
nother story. But just for contact, it seems weird that

2770
02:45:13,000 --> 02:45:15,760
Kennan is like emphasizing that, look like we gotta we've

2771
02:45:15,760 --> 02:45:17,920
got to basically like take Japan out of the Cold

2772
02:45:18,000 --> 02:45:27,399
War entirely. That's why. Okay, And in turn, he said, finally,

2773
02:45:30,040 --> 02:45:33,559
he said that we're entering into a catastro. What's gonna

2774
02:45:33,600 --> 02:45:35,680
He's like, we're in arms race with the Soviet Union.

2775
02:45:35,719 --> 02:45:38,479
He's like, which we can probably win just because we

2776
02:45:38,719 --> 02:45:42,200
we can essentially like in definitely outspend them on weapons.

2777
02:45:42,719 --> 02:45:45,239
But he's like, at some point the Soviets are probably

2778
02:45:45,319 --> 02:45:47,840
going to go all in and assault us, you know,

2779
02:45:47,920 --> 02:45:50,639
with everything they have, rather than just lose. Okay, So

2780
02:45:50,760 --> 02:45:53,079
he's like, we need to reduce some veryan capabilities to

2781
02:45:53,159 --> 02:45:56,760
a mixed like a mixed combined arms force that's capable

2782
02:45:56,799 --> 02:45:59,719
of dealing you know, a concentrated and devastating blow on

2783
02:45:59,840 --> 02:46:04,040
a limited front, but basically anywhere on this planet. And

2784
02:46:04,159 --> 02:46:08,040
that was very pressing in too, okay because that that

2785
02:46:08,159 --> 02:46:11,600
kind of thing. He became dominant by the end of

2786
02:46:11,639 --> 02:46:14,879
the Cold War definitely and even beyond, although the strategic

2787
02:46:15,000 --> 02:46:21,559
landscape is totally changed, and arguably arguably the reason why

2788
02:46:23,159 --> 02:46:27,079
that that uh that notion has gained legs is for

2789
02:46:27,239 --> 02:46:30,799
totally different reasons. But I mean there's all kinds of

2790
02:46:30,840 --> 02:46:32,479
factor of the plane of that, you know, like political,

2791
02:46:33,200 --> 02:46:41,399
technological in others. But Kenon uh, Kennon had I guess

2792
02:46:41,399 --> 02:46:43,319
I'm getting is this Kennon hit or he wasn't something

2793
02:46:43,360 --> 02:46:48,520
on augur and light or anything. But he put Kennon

2794
02:46:48,520 --> 02:46:51,280
ahead of his peers, particularly in the issue not of

2795
02:46:51,399 --> 02:46:55,399
the of Korea but also Asia generally get an understanding

2796
02:46:55,479 --> 02:46:59,719
of h understanding of cause as in politics, because causality

2797
02:46:59,760 --> 02:47:04,440
and politics it I mean cause causality and human affairs

2798
02:47:04,520 --> 02:47:09,239
obviously isn't like causality in physics or something. I mean,

2799
02:47:09,280 --> 02:47:13,200
everybody can see that, But in politics is a peculiar

2800
02:47:14,120 --> 02:47:16,440
domain of human endeavor, and there's a weird kind of

2801
02:47:16,479 --> 02:47:19,760
causation in politics. Part of this owes to what men

2802
02:47:19,840 --> 02:47:22,719
and command rules have to do to maintain credibility. Part

2803
02:47:22,760 --> 02:47:24,399
of it has to do with the way humans perceive

2804
02:47:24,559 --> 02:47:27,159
threat at scale. Part of it has to do with

2805
02:47:27,360 --> 02:47:30,680
just how decisions are made in uh in in in

2806
02:47:30,799 --> 02:47:38,319
technology driven societies where uh you know where uh that

2807
02:47:38,559 --> 02:47:42,959
that that that that wields such great power over the

2808
02:47:43,000 --> 02:47:47,200
forces that animate them that you know, uh oftentimes, once

2809
02:47:47,319 --> 02:47:50,559
once the decision one one, once the decision making process

2810
02:47:50,639 --> 02:47:54,799
set in motion, it really cannot be stopped. Kind of

2811
02:47:54,879 --> 02:47:58,120
had instincts for all this stuff, and he kind of

2812
02:47:58,200 --> 02:48:01,920
understood the implications that thistrategic matters as they were happening,

2813
02:48:02,440 --> 02:48:05,959
and That's what really makes a political theorist, particularly like

2814
02:48:06,000 --> 02:48:09,799
an IR theorist, is you can look at you can

2815
02:48:10,920 --> 02:48:13,680
you can look at affairs as they unfold, and you

2816
02:48:13,760 --> 02:48:18,680
can basically disturb the trajectory of of of of the

2817
02:48:19,760 --> 02:48:22,200
of war and peace parents. I can't think I better

2818
02:48:22,239 --> 02:48:24,600
way to put it, But that's kind of.

2819
02:48:27,920 --> 02:48:30,680
Speaker 1: Have we lost that now or is it just we're

2820
02:48:30,799 --> 02:48:38,319
so far gone with leadership, our leadership being I mean,

2821
02:48:39,040 --> 02:48:43,760
why can't we see something like this when it comes

2822
02:48:43,879 --> 02:48:47,239
to NATO. Is it because we're the aggressors? Is because

2823
02:48:47,319 --> 02:48:48,079
we're in the wrong?

2824
02:48:48,360 --> 02:48:48,520
Speaker 2: Is it?

2825
02:48:48,840 --> 02:48:54,559
Speaker 1: I mean what you're describing, I mean these people, the

2826
02:48:54,639 --> 02:48:57,399
people you're describing that would be considered enemies of the

2827
02:48:57,840 --> 02:48:58,719
enemies of the regime.

2828
02:49:00,040 --> 02:49:04,040
Speaker 2: What it's It's complicated, but a point it made the

2829
02:49:04,079 --> 02:49:06,760
people again and again. You know, during the Cold War,

2830
02:49:08,120 --> 02:49:10,719
guys who had the best, in the brightest, they were

2831
02:49:10,760 --> 02:49:13,239
basically corralled in the government. I mean, if you were

2832
02:49:13,239 --> 02:49:15,959
a nuclear physicist, you went to work in Los Alamos.

2833
02:49:16,280 --> 02:49:20,040
If you're some brilliant game theorist, you know you you

2834
02:49:20,159 --> 02:49:22,120
got you got sent to Harvard and then you gotta

2835
02:49:22,120 --> 02:49:24,479
send us some pending on funded think tank to figure

2836
02:49:24,479 --> 02:49:26,680
out how to wage nuclear war. You know, if you're

2837
02:49:26,760 --> 02:49:30,840
like a brilliant economist, you know, you'd, uh, you'd you'd

2838
02:49:30,879 --> 02:49:33,479
meet with the president and you'd say like, okay, like

2839
02:49:33,920 --> 02:49:35,760
what's the best way? You know, the Marshall Plan was

2840
02:49:35,799 --> 02:49:37,440
great for politics, but it didn't do a whole lot

2841
02:49:37,520 --> 02:49:40,120
for you know, capital and return on investment and for

2842
02:49:40,239 --> 02:49:42,479
technological development. You know, how can we how can we

2843
02:49:42,680 --> 02:49:44,440
how do we build up Korea? How can we build

2844
02:49:44,520 --> 02:49:47,040
up you know, Taiwan? You know, how can we build

2845
02:49:47,120 --> 02:49:49,719
up you know these uh, these kind of key proxy

2846
02:49:49,760 --> 02:49:53,719
regimes to fight the Soviet Union, you know, like nowadays,

2847
02:49:54,440 --> 02:49:56,360
like the only people who go to government are real losers.

2848
02:49:56,959 --> 02:49:59,760
I mean it's it's like it's like weirdos, freaks, like

2849
02:50:00,319 --> 02:50:03,840
like literally like half assed actors, you know, like weird

2850
02:50:03,879 --> 02:50:06,000
people who have like nothing going for him, but they

2851
02:50:06,040 --> 02:50:08,440
have some desperate need to like be famous or something.

2852
02:50:09,120 --> 02:50:11,639
Like any guy, any guys, anything going for him is

2853
02:50:11,680 --> 02:50:13,719
gonna have nothing to do with governments, you know, Like

2854
02:50:13,799 --> 02:50:16,360
why what you I mean that's part of it.

2855
02:50:17,799 --> 02:50:20,600
Speaker 1: Are these people like I have a friend, his son

2856
02:50:21,520 --> 02:50:26,680
is a genius engineering trying to raytheon or offered him

2857
02:50:28,840 --> 02:50:30,840
an insane amount of money, and he's like, I just can't,

2858
02:50:31,120 --> 02:50:33,920
I can't work for these people. Is that what's happening now?

2859
02:50:34,000 --> 02:50:37,280
Because because basically we have a corporate run government that

2860
02:50:37,559 --> 02:50:39,440
the best and the brightest are just going straight into

2861
02:50:39,520 --> 02:50:40,360
the corporations.

2862
02:50:40,440 --> 02:50:44,280
Speaker 2: And then the guy, I mean, look at it look okay,

2863
02:50:44,360 --> 02:50:47,719
like like like fifty years ago or even forty years ago,

2864
02:50:48,000 --> 02:50:49,959
like in the early eighties, I got like Elon Musk,

2865
02:50:50,120 --> 02:50:52,159
he'd be like working in governments, you would have been

2866
02:50:52,200 --> 02:50:54,000
like making you would have been going on TV debating

2867
02:50:54,040 --> 02:50:56,120
Carl Sagan to like, no, this is why we need

2868
02:50:56,239 --> 02:50:58,079
SDI you know, No, this is why we need to

2869
02:50:58,159 --> 02:51:00,319
roll back communism, Like no, this is while you know,

2870
02:51:00,360 --> 02:51:02,479
we need to scrap the A b M Treaty and

2871
02:51:02,559 --> 02:51:05,959
develop weapons platforms that you know truly hasplaited first right potential,

2872
02:51:06,280 --> 02:51:09,559
Like that's what you'd be doing, Like now, who the

2873
02:51:09,600 --> 02:51:12,079
hell is gonna go? Who the hell's gonna go debate

2874
02:51:12,280 --> 02:51:15,680
with AOC about whether like kids should learn about anal

2875
02:51:15,799 --> 02:51:19,520
sex or not in seventh grade like that, Like, who

2876
02:51:19,559 --> 02:51:21,799
the hell is gonna do that? Like any normal person

2877
02:51:21,840 --> 02:51:24,559
that's totally beneath them, and they wouldn't like selling themselves

2878
02:51:24,600 --> 02:51:27,879
that way. But also it's like government is for losers,

2879
02:51:28,520 --> 02:51:30,920
you know, it's it's for people like the bidens. You know,

2880
02:51:31,040 --> 02:51:34,399
it's it's for it's for people like AOC, it's for uh,

2881
02:51:35,639 --> 02:51:38,440
it's for or it's for guys or or or it's

2882
02:51:38,479 --> 02:51:41,360
for kind of like uh, or's for kind of like

2883
02:51:41,559 --> 02:51:43,479
you know, guys like the scantists who have some kind

2884
02:51:43,520 --> 02:51:46,399
of like like stride or nurses just need to like

2885
02:51:46,639 --> 02:51:50,120
you know, see their face on TV or something like.

2886
02:51:50,479 --> 02:51:52,600
You know, people have something going for them, like aren't

2887
02:51:52,680 --> 02:51:54,520
going to anything have anything to do with it. And

2888
02:51:55,600 --> 02:51:58,799
I mean, but it's also part of the problem. I mean,

2889
02:51:58,879 --> 02:52:01,120
like we talked about before, and I'm sure people think

2890
02:52:01,159 --> 02:52:03,399
that I'm flowing a dead horse here, that maybe I

2891
02:52:03,479 --> 02:52:06,319
overstate my case, but even aside of the fact that

2892
02:52:06,360 --> 02:52:09,200
we've got like a hostile regime that's wholly destructive and

2893
02:52:09,319 --> 02:52:12,159
like an enemy of the people and stuff, even in

2894
02:52:12,520 --> 02:52:14,399
like let's say you have like a normal regime of

2895
02:52:14,559 --> 02:52:19,399
like of like normal people, like the government has structured

2896
02:52:19,879 --> 02:52:22,719
it's only structured to really fight the Cold War and

2897
02:52:22,959 --> 02:52:24,840
not much else. I mean, it's like why does it

2898
02:52:24,879 --> 02:52:27,200
even exist? You know, there's there's like there's something of

2899
02:52:27,280 --> 02:52:30,440
a there's there's more than there's more than a modicum

2900
02:52:30,559 --> 02:52:33,719
of fraud to it too, you know it, and people

2901
02:52:33,799 --> 02:52:38,280
see through that, like at a highly intelligent guy aside

2902
02:52:38,319 --> 02:52:40,040
of the fact that there's nothing government is doing that

2903
02:52:40,079 --> 02:52:42,399
got positively interested in. Now he's not, he's not gonna

2904
02:52:42,440 --> 02:52:44,440
go he's not gonna go pretend that like, you know,

2905
02:52:44,559 --> 02:52:47,879
he's he's he's he's actually accompisting something by working in

2906
02:52:47,959 --> 02:52:52,000
some idiotic bureaucracy. You like, you know when you I mean,

2907
02:52:52,040 --> 02:52:54,680
if people want to Jerry Portnell, I mean, I'm a

2908
02:52:54,719 --> 02:52:56,959
big science fiction guy, so I love Jerry Parnell, but

2909
02:52:58,600 --> 02:53:02,079
you know he, uh the Committee on the Present Danger,

2910
02:53:02,280 --> 02:53:04,920
he really kind of took over that, uh that role.

2911
02:53:05,120 --> 02:53:06,879
I mean that the Committee on the Present Danger went

2912
02:53:06,959 --> 02:53:09,239
back to the fifties, but in the eighties he truly

2913
02:53:09,280 --> 02:53:13,280
made it into like a a into like a military

2914
02:53:13,360 --> 02:53:17,319
science like political action committee. Okay. And Pornell was the

2915
02:53:17,360 --> 02:53:20,040
guy who put like S ANDDI on the map. Okay.

2916
02:53:21,120 --> 02:53:23,799
That's why the Cold War, I mean, dynamic people were

2917
02:53:23,840 --> 02:53:26,719
in government because of the Cold War. Okay, That's that

2918
02:53:26,879 --> 02:53:28,840
is why they were there, like they weren't. There is

2919
02:53:28,879 --> 02:53:31,360
government as awesome armor because they really want to. They

2920
02:53:31,399 --> 02:53:33,040
all want to figure out, you know, how to draft

2921
02:53:33,120 --> 02:53:36,399
a school curriculum for like poor kids, because they weren't

2922
02:53:36,399 --> 02:53:39,879
like past laws like make gay people feel better about themselves.

2923
02:53:40,520 --> 02:53:42,680
I mean like they they were there to fight the

2924
02:53:42,760 --> 02:53:47,840
Cold War and that's it. And uh, the Cold War

2925
02:53:47,959 --> 02:53:50,239
was something that comes like a paradigmic that happened once

2926
02:53:50,319 --> 02:53:53,159
in a thousand years if that, And people realize that

2927
02:53:53,319 --> 02:53:56,360
on some deep level, even when it was horrifying, and

2928
02:53:56,479 --> 02:53:59,360
even when people would have done anything to get out

2929
02:53:59,399 --> 02:54:02,520
of it, you know, when like and at junctures, you know,

2930
02:54:02,639 --> 02:54:07,040
like like Cuba of sixty three or sixty two, you know, uh,

2931
02:54:07,639 --> 02:54:12,000
you know, uh, the seventy three war and like able Archer,

2932
02:54:12,399 --> 02:54:14,639
even even even as horrifying as that stuff was, like

2933
02:54:14,680 --> 02:54:18,200
people realize like you know, these were these were apocal

2934
02:54:18,600 --> 02:54:22,000
or shatering events than I'm participating in. That's why.

2935
02:54:22,719 --> 02:54:25,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you go back to like you know,

2936
02:54:25,639 --> 02:54:29,319
they would send Carl Sagan out to make an argument

2937
02:54:29,440 --> 02:54:32,920
for them. Now, who is their scientist now, Neil deGrasse, Tyson,

2938
02:54:33,239 --> 02:54:36,200
Bill Nye. Guys who can get Guys who can get

2939
02:54:36,399 --> 02:54:42,399
owned on Twitter by like yeah by people kids anonymous

2940
02:54:42,680 --> 02:54:43,639
anonymous accounts.

2941
02:54:43,959 --> 02:54:46,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, like like anonymous, and they're they're like high school

2942
02:54:46,639 --> 02:54:49,360
kids too. Yeah, it's like saying like there's plenty of

2943
02:54:49,360 --> 02:54:51,079
short high school kids. But the point is, yeah, these

2944
02:54:51,079 --> 02:54:53,319
guys are gonna get ebarrassed by just like like sixteen

2945
02:54:53,399 --> 02:54:53,879
year old John.

2946
02:54:54,959 --> 02:54:57,239
Speaker 1: There's just no one. It seems like there is no

2947
02:54:57,360 --> 02:55:01,000
one who's impressive anymore. And if they are impressive, you like,

2948
02:55:01,079 --> 02:55:03,399
you know, it's like to a certain extent, Elon Musk

2949
02:55:03,479 --> 02:55:06,680
I think is an impressive guy, but he's also you're

2950
02:55:06,719 --> 02:55:09,760
also like, what the hell does this guy believe? You know,

2951
02:55:09,879 --> 02:55:12,479
it's like he you don't know what his ideology is,

2952
02:55:12,559 --> 02:55:13,440
if he has one at all.

2953
02:55:14,000 --> 02:55:15,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't only think he does. I mean generally

2954
02:55:15,879 --> 02:55:18,799
business moguls don't. I mean, I defend Musk a lot

2955
02:55:18,920 --> 02:55:21,159
because I mean he's a high speed blow dray guy.

2956
02:55:21,559 --> 02:55:24,479
He's the one who's keeping real space tech alive, and

2957
02:55:24,559 --> 02:55:26,399
he's doing incredible thing. I mean, it's the fact, like

2958
02:55:26,399 --> 02:55:30,360
the stuff he's done for telecom is incredible, Okay, and uh,

2959
02:55:31,159 --> 02:55:34,520
you know he's he's the things he's he's introduced are

2960
02:55:34,799 --> 02:55:38,479
are game changers, you know, I mean not just in

2961
02:55:38,520 --> 02:55:40,559
telecom like across the board. I mean he has an

2962
02:55:40,559 --> 02:55:44,600
eccentric weirdo but uh, I mean all all these guys are.

2963
02:55:44,680 --> 02:55:46,920
But I mean I'm glad he's around and he you know,

2964
02:55:47,559 --> 02:55:51,280
I's he's a great man and and like not in

2965
02:55:51,319 --> 02:55:53,079
the sense of I love him and think he's awesome,

2966
02:55:53,200 --> 02:55:57,319
but and by any objective metric. But that's you know, government,

2967
02:55:58,399 --> 02:56:01,000
You know, government is going to attract users when it doesn't.

2968
02:56:01,920 --> 02:56:03,479
I mean they were this is I don't wanna go

2969
02:56:03,559 --> 02:56:05,000
too of our field and I'll wrap, but I want

2970
02:56:05,040 --> 02:56:07,479
to up in the hour. But but I mean, uh

2971
02:56:08,559 --> 02:56:13,159
I government is gonna cease to exist as as as

2972
02:56:13,200 --> 02:56:15,360
we know it today in the next two hundred years.

2973
02:56:15,639 --> 02:56:17,399
Like I'm not saying like the state will wither, you know,

2974
02:56:17,520 --> 02:56:19,840
like some utopian anarchists or some you know kind of

2975
02:56:20,000 --> 02:56:24,200
like low key uh like Trotsky or something, But you're not.

2976
02:56:24,360 --> 02:56:26,639
It's just not gonna have you know, a center of

2977
02:56:26,760 --> 02:56:30,719
now people stuff like you know the twentieth century. Uh.

2978
02:56:31,799 --> 02:56:34,239
Features that that that created this regime are gonna be

2979
02:56:34,319 --> 02:56:38,000
so remote as to be like not even intelligent anymore. So,

2980
02:56:38,639 --> 02:56:41,440
Like a lot of what government does as it's make work,

2981
02:56:41,559 --> 02:56:43,600
uh business the day to day is just not gonna

2982
02:56:43,600 --> 02:56:46,719
exist and you work, and plus it's be like a

2983
02:56:46,799 --> 02:56:49,879
natural devolution, you know, like you're gonna like localism is

2984
02:56:49,920 --> 02:56:52,799
gonna become just like more and more thing it already is.

2985
02:56:52,959 --> 02:56:54,520
But so I think the problem is gonna take care

2986
02:56:54,559 --> 02:56:58,680
of take care of itself in some basic way. But

2987
02:56:58,840 --> 02:57:06,040
that's uh, that's there's something I I can't thought. I

2988
02:57:06,079 --> 02:57:08,120
thought there was something I wanted to bring up an conclusion. Again,

2989
02:57:08,159 --> 02:57:10,239
I swear I'm not going to senile.

2990
02:57:09,840 --> 02:57:13,159
Speaker 1: But well I I derailed you. It's just that, you know,

2991
02:57:13,559 --> 02:57:16,360
when you think, yeah, when you think back on the

2992
02:57:16,440 --> 02:57:18,840
Cold War, there were so many you know, it is

2993
02:57:19,559 --> 02:57:22,239
as psychotic as it was at many points. There were

2994
02:57:22,319 --> 02:57:25,319
so many impressive people out there, and give it, you know,

2995
02:57:25,559 --> 02:57:30,280
talking coming up with technology. I mean it, we just don't.

2996
02:57:31,120 --> 02:57:33,319
I'm not saying we need another Cold War. I'm just

2997
02:57:33,360 --> 02:57:35,319
saying it's just when you look at what we have

2998
02:57:35,520 --> 02:57:38,879
today compared to uh, the people that we were looking

2999
02:57:38,959 --> 02:57:42,000
at then, it's just like what the hell happened? Man?

3000
02:57:42,120 --> 02:57:44,879
It's like idio, you know, it's like idiocrasy. It like

3001
02:57:45,120 --> 02:57:48,000
snuck up on us. Yeah, in a decade.

3002
02:57:48,479 --> 02:57:50,600
Speaker 2: No, it's only nuts. I mean, like I said, I

3003
02:57:51,200 --> 02:57:54,399
I found it jarring. Like you know, the Clinton administration

3004
02:57:54,520 --> 02:57:56,639
was jarring because I mean Clinton was such a fucking slob.

3005
02:57:57,040 --> 02:57:59,559
But these people like, ah, there's something really wrong on them.

3006
02:58:00,000 --> 02:58:01,479
And it was like it wasn't even gradual. It was

3007
02:58:01,520 --> 02:58:03,319
like okay, I mean whether you like Bush forty one

3008
02:58:03,399 --> 02:58:05,000
or not, I mean he was he was a high speed,

3009
02:58:05,040 --> 02:58:07,760
low drag guy, you know, in that whole. And James

3010
02:58:07,840 --> 02:58:10,000
Baker was when I was a kid, like a team

3011
02:58:10,159 --> 02:58:12,319
like James Baker was like like a here. I really

3012
02:58:12,360 --> 02:58:15,760
looked up to them, you know. But these you know,

3013
02:58:15,840 --> 02:58:19,000
I go from that kind of very heavy, severe in

3014
02:58:19,120 --> 02:58:22,079
both good and bad ways regime you know, to Bill

3015
02:58:22,159 --> 02:58:24,399
Clinton and it's kind of like Merry band a circus

3016
02:58:24,440 --> 02:58:28,280
freaks like it. It was bizarre, man, Like it was jarring.

3017
02:58:28,440 --> 02:58:30,760
But I mean that's why, like I said, I can't

3018
02:58:31,079 --> 02:58:32,719
it was a joke on Like these boomers were like

3019
02:58:33,360 --> 02:58:36,559
who like flying to like, you know, rages about Donald Trump.

3020
02:58:37,200 --> 02:58:39,319
You know, these like the same assholes were like telling

3021
02:58:39,479 --> 02:58:41,799
us thirty years ago like you gonna get with the times, man,

3022
02:58:41,959 --> 02:58:44,000
you like, Bill Clinton is the future, Like we don't

3023
02:58:44,000 --> 02:58:47,000
want your white male stuff anymore. But you know, it's

3024
02:58:47,079 --> 02:58:49,559
like you can't like turn around and say, like you're

3025
02:58:49,600 --> 02:58:52,799
outraged at some reality TV show stars as the president.

3026
02:58:53,079 --> 02:58:55,319
It's like you guys made this shit happen, you know,

3027
02:58:55,399 --> 02:58:56,959
like you're the ones who said that. Like we're a

3028
02:58:57,000 --> 02:58:59,639
bunch of squares and fishes and idiots who you know

3029
02:58:59,760 --> 02:59:02,040
want like weight meal stuff to rule, man, and you know,

3030
02:59:02,520 --> 02:59:07,239
we gotta get with the times. So it's like, you know, yeah, yeah, but.

3031
02:59:07,440 --> 02:59:09,680
Speaker 1: It's really and it's really only a matter of time

3032
02:59:09,760 --> 02:59:12,000
before people start begging for that to come back.

3033
02:59:13,280 --> 02:59:14,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I've got my own. I mean I'm

3034
02:59:14,799 --> 02:59:17,200
very optimistic, man. I mean I don't worry about anything

3035
02:59:17,280 --> 02:59:19,440
now because I've been so awesome. I'mre like futterless, but

3036
02:59:19,520 --> 02:59:22,920
I you know, I'm like a Calvinist and stuff, and

3037
02:59:23,120 --> 02:59:25,280
like I you know, like stuff doesn't really bother me.

3038
02:59:25,840 --> 02:59:28,479
And but also like you know, I I see I

3039
02:59:28,559 --> 02:59:30,799
see causes for optimism all over the place, you know.

3040
02:59:30,920 --> 02:59:32,319
I mean there's a lot of like horrible things too,

3041
02:59:32,440 --> 02:59:34,440
but I mean there's always horrible things. You know. The

3042
02:59:34,760 --> 02:59:38,120
world is a falling place, man, like that that's that's why,

3043
02:59:39,079 --> 02:59:41,399
you know, That's that that's you know, we're all born

3044
02:59:41,440 --> 02:59:45,959
in sin But at any event, Uh yeah, well let's

3045
02:59:48,079 --> 02:59:50,000
let's uh, let's wrap up now because I don't want to.

3046
02:59:50,040 --> 02:59:52,959
I don't want to go into another big uh like

3047
02:59:53,120 --> 02:59:56,120
subtopic because it's coming up on the hour. But like

3048
02:59:56,200 --> 02:59:58,760
I said before we went live, man and i'm ah

3049
02:59:59,639 --> 03:00:02,040
the Felt was invited me to go with them to

3050
03:00:02,200 --> 03:00:04,920
the American Renaissance Conference this weekend. So that's where I

3051
03:00:05,000 --> 03:00:09,120
am going. I'm going to Nashville. So if you're there,

3052
03:00:09,200 --> 03:00:12,799
you will see me. If you seek me out. Please

3053
03:00:12,799 --> 03:00:18,600
don't try to assassinate me or something like, but you'll

3054
03:00:18,639 --> 03:00:21,079
cotch me at these things that they're they come as friends.

3055
03:00:21,159 --> 03:00:24,600
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, unfortunately, I don't think this is gonna come

3056
03:00:24,639 --> 03:00:25,799
out before the weekends.

3057
03:00:26,079 --> 03:00:28,959
Speaker 2: No fair enough, Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, but uh no,

3058
03:00:29,120 --> 03:00:34,000
I in any event, uh plus yeah, I mean, I'm on,

3059
03:00:34,120 --> 03:00:36,159
I'm on I'm I'm I'm on Twitter still because I

3060
03:00:36,200 --> 03:00:39,319
mean apparently, uh, I'm speaking of mister musk uh that

3061
03:00:39,559 --> 03:00:43,639
that the uh the woke uh censorship regime is done

3062
03:00:44,000 --> 03:00:46,719
and you can find me there you seeking he shall

3063
03:00:46,760 --> 03:00:50,680
find I'm on sub stick at real Thomas seven seven

3064
03:00:50,760 --> 03:00:53,200
seven that substack dot com as my podcast is at

3065
03:00:54,680 --> 03:00:59,719
the the sequel to Steel Storm is dropping in January.

3066
03:01:00,079 --> 03:01:02,440
I promise. I'm sorry for the delay. It was not

3067
03:01:02,639 --> 03:01:05,239
my fault, nor was it my dear publisher's fault, the

3068
03:01:05,280 --> 03:01:08,520
Period Press. We've had censorship problems on our own and

3069
03:01:08,639 --> 03:01:11,840
deep platforming problems. But it will be here in January.

3070
03:01:11,879 --> 03:01:14,559
I'm sorry you cannot be here for the holidays, but uh,

3071
03:01:15,079 --> 03:01:16,799
that is uh, that is where I'm at.

3072
03:01:18,040 --> 03:01:20,600
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Yeah, until the next time. Thank you.

3073
03:01:22,200 --> 03:01:24,680
I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekenana Show,

3074
03:01:25,440 --> 03:01:30,319
part four of the Cold War Cold War series with

3075
03:01:30,479 --> 03:01:34,680
Thomas seven seven seven. How are you doing Thomas, and

3076
03:01:34,879 --> 03:01:35,239
very well?

3077
03:01:35,360 --> 03:01:37,559
Speaker 2: Thanks again. What I wanted to get into today we

3078
03:01:37,639 --> 03:01:42,040
finished off last week we talked her, Yeah, more like

3079
03:01:42,079 --> 03:01:43,520
a week and a half ago perhaps, but you know,

3080
03:01:43,600 --> 03:01:46,520
talking about the Berlin a Berlin airlift and the Korean War,

3081
03:01:47,840 --> 03:01:49,600
and I kind of finished up talking about the Korean War,

3082
03:01:49,639 --> 03:01:52,680
and I wanted to talk about the Buddhist Republic and

3083
03:01:52,959 --> 03:01:55,440
it's putical culture and how it developed the way it

3084
03:01:55,559 --> 03:02:00,239
did and into that the listeners will unders say what

3085
03:02:00,319 --> 03:02:03,520
I mean about why that's significant, But you know, the

3086
03:02:03,600 --> 03:02:08,440
Korean War, it uh, you know, like what we discussed

3087
03:02:08,719 --> 03:02:11,840
in the last episode about I was essential. Let end

3088
03:02:12,559 --> 03:02:16,120
you know, uh, containment is policy, you know, not just

3089
03:02:16,200 --> 03:02:21,239
as some sort of theory abstracted from from concrete military

3090
03:02:21,280 --> 03:02:23,879
decision making. You know, you've really got to understand the

3091
03:02:23,920 --> 03:02:26,200
Korean War as kind of the first iteration of that,

3092
03:02:26,920 --> 03:02:29,559
you know, and as well as you know what became

3093
03:02:29,959 --> 03:02:33,200
to great lectory, you know, policy towards the Communists for

3094
03:02:33,239 --> 03:02:37,639
the next the next forty years. And it's also too

3095
03:02:37,719 --> 03:02:41,879
that's when America trulyuated into the viet conflict. You know,

3096
03:02:41,959 --> 03:02:44,479
Like I made the point before, there's all kinds of

3097
03:02:44,600 --> 03:02:47,479
lives about the Vietnam War and just missed just kind

3098
03:02:47,520 --> 03:02:51,920
of misperceptions, some deliberate, some deliberately confabulated, you know, for

3099
03:02:52,319 --> 03:02:58,200
polemical leological reasons, supportive brought ignorance the idea that Vietnam,

3100
03:02:58,200 --> 03:03:01,159
which is kind of the opportunity the you know, owing

3101
03:03:01,239 --> 03:03:06,000
the the designs of you know, uh profiteers and financiers

3102
03:03:06,040 --> 03:03:12,360
and things, this nonsense and the it and arguably you know,

3103
03:03:12,440 --> 03:03:15,479
the Far East was there. It was far more dangerous

3104
03:03:15,719 --> 03:03:18,079
during the Middle and late Cold War than than the

3105
03:03:18,120 --> 03:03:21,440
European theater. I mean, obviously come to Europe that would

3106
03:03:21,479 --> 03:03:25,479
have been because basically a single conflict diad and had

3107
03:03:25,520 --> 03:03:29,959
it been triggered or trit the potential for catastrophic escalation

3108
03:03:30,840 --> 03:03:34,200
was was was ever present. But did you but there

3109
03:03:34,319 --> 03:03:38,200
was many many like diads potentially and how and where

3110
03:03:38,639 --> 03:03:43,600
uh uh, you know, actual warfare would ensue. That was

3111
03:03:43,719 --> 03:03:47,479
very difficult to predict. And you know, once hostilities didn't sue,

3112
03:03:48,680 --> 03:03:50,600
it was it was equally difficult to predict, you know,

3113
03:03:50,680 --> 03:03:54,600
what the potential of escalation was. You know, it's also

3114
03:03:54,760 --> 03:03:57,319
to the there there's there's more of a fluidity the

3115
03:03:57,319 --> 03:04:00,559
sphere of influence and things like this. But that's you know,

3116
03:04:00,600 --> 03:04:05,959
that's why Korea is important and it's also it uh,

3117
03:04:07,479 --> 03:04:09,680
it's it's essential to I think he were you kind

3118
03:04:09,680 --> 03:04:12,079
of the outcome of the Korean conflict, you know, in

3119
03:04:12,200 --> 03:04:16,680
terms of it's very pretty much Truman came under you know,

3120
03:04:16,760 --> 03:04:19,440
Truman left office really kind of in disgrace. It's not

3121
03:04:19,600 --> 03:04:21,079
I mean, he was he was an whenever he was

3122
03:04:21,120 --> 03:04:23,719
about Truman, and he was honest. He didn't have character issues,

3123
03:04:24,239 --> 03:04:29,000
he wasn't corrupt, but he was in the toilet on.

3124
03:04:29,159 --> 03:04:32,920
The Korean War was incredibly unpopular and you know, the

3125
03:04:33,559 --> 03:04:36,639
the very public rift between Truman and Carthur, which led

3126
03:04:36,719 --> 03:04:42,959
him Carter's dismissal. The Pike generally sympathized with MacArthur, not

3127
03:04:43,159 --> 03:04:44,719
just because you know, he was kind of this heroic

3128
03:04:44,840 --> 03:04:48,479
personas that had been very deliberately hated by you know,

3129
03:04:48,600 --> 03:04:52,559
by media, but also the view of the view of

3130
03:04:52,639 --> 03:04:55,600
Truman was that Truman's of gyms, you know, as stated

3131
03:04:55,719 --> 03:04:59,319
where to quote, restore peace and security on the Korean peninsula.

3132
03:04:59,799 --> 03:05:02,600
You know, there was you know, basically the re establish

3133
03:05:02,600 --> 03:05:05,600
the stay as quote lu of victory. And in Truman's words,

3134
03:05:05,959 --> 03:05:08,159
you know, we're waging the Christrean war, you know, not

3135
03:05:08,360 --> 03:05:12,040
just for for the sake of you know, deterring aggression

3136
03:05:12,159 --> 03:05:15,280
and and uh and they're prevailing and and you know,

3137
03:05:15,319 --> 03:05:17,959
and guarding the prevailing peace, but to quote protect our forces,

3138
03:05:18,440 --> 03:05:20,639
you know, and that's one of the officers in the

3139
03:05:20,680 --> 03:05:23,159
ground refer to that as an absurd tautology. You know,

3140
03:05:23,840 --> 03:05:26,600
your forces are there to protect your forces. I mean,

3141
03:05:26,639 --> 03:05:28,799
that doesn't that that's not why you go to war.

3142
03:05:29,479 --> 03:05:31,959
And you know we're talking about you know, not just

3143
03:05:32,159 --> 03:05:36,360
men's lives, uh, you know, and and and and expecting

3144
03:05:36,399 --> 03:05:40,639
them to sacrifice their lives in the national interest. You know,

3145
03:05:40,760 --> 03:05:43,120
you you really have an obligation to the country, not

3146
03:05:43,239 --> 03:05:45,879
just to those men and and their families and relations,

3147
03:05:45,959 --> 03:05:48,479
but you know to the country at large, you know,

3148
03:05:48,600 --> 03:05:50,280
to to wage war to.

3149
03:05:50,360 --> 03:05:54,399
Speaker 1: Win, you know, not not not to well an insult,

3150
03:05:54,840 --> 03:05:57,239
isn't it also an insult to the men on the ground. Oh,

3151
03:05:57,280 --> 03:05:59,120
we got to drop more forces in there because you

3152
03:05:59,159 --> 03:06:02,280
guys can't handle It's like the whole Afghanistan thing. We

3153
03:06:02,399 --> 03:06:05,760
have these Afghanic troops that we've that we've trained, and

3154
03:06:06,159 --> 03:06:08,639
you know, they have platoons, but they can't do it

3155
03:06:08,760 --> 03:06:10,639
on their own, So we got to get someone in there.

3156
03:06:11,239 --> 03:06:14,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point that it has the

3157
03:06:14,760 --> 03:06:18,079
effect of really kind of sapping moralele and and and

3158
03:06:18,200 --> 03:06:21,680
and kind of discouraging in any enthusiasm you know, for

3159
03:06:21,760 --> 03:06:26,200
the for the war effort, and it so I mean

3160
03:06:26,520 --> 03:06:29,680
I for for good for good reason. You know, Truman

3161
03:06:29,799 --> 03:06:32,879
was kind of savaged over his prosecution of the war.

3162
03:06:33,000 --> 03:06:35,959
But also suddenly you know, kind of court historians was

3163
03:06:36,000 --> 03:06:37,520
on the right and the left, they kind of they

3164
03:06:37,600 --> 03:06:39,879
kind of view this as as this real low point

3165
03:06:40,680 --> 03:06:45,000
for a you America and the Cold War, Uh, you know,

3166
03:06:45,360 --> 03:06:49,879
kind of a a precursor to what ensued during the

3167
03:06:49,959 --> 03:06:53,360
detent era after you know, Segon fell and things. But

3168
03:06:53,760 --> 03:06:55,360
I have a different take on that. I mean, that's

3169
03:06:55,360 --> 03:06:57,239
part of the reason we're doing this is is owing

3170
03:06:57,280 --> 03:07:01,319
the you know, the earth of with in his perspectives

3171
03:07:01,319 --> 03:07:04,719
and dealing with the Cold War. But in kiss interests diplomacy,

3172
03:07:04,840 --> 03:07:06,920
he's about the only kind of I mean, I said

3173
03:07:07,000 --> 03:07:09,639
Kissinger a lot because I you know, like before, for

3174
03:07:09,639 --> 03:07:13,559
whatever reason, people kind of on both sides the logical divide,

3175
03:07:13,600 --> 03:07:17,559
they they love kind of burning uh Kissinger at proverbial effigy,

3176
03:07:17,879 --> 03:07:22,000
but he in power political analyses, he's really second to none, Okay,

3177
03:07:22,120 --> 03:07:26,120
And he he made the point. Uh I got a

3178
03:07:26,120 --> 03:07:28,440
little bit further than he did, but or he does.

3179
03:07:28,559 --> 03:07:31,680
But he made the point that you know, uh, the

3180
03:07:32,760 --> 03:07:35,520
Stalin uh and and the Soviet Union ended up in

3181
03:07:35,600 --> 03:07:38,799
pretty in a pretty precarious position only to the Korean War,

3182
03:07:40,799 --> 03:07:43,920
the uh, the the you know, the there's a basic

3183
03:07:44,000 --> 03:07:48,639
ambiguity as to where American sphere of influence stuff in

3184
03:07:48,760 --> 03:07:53,200
Soviet interests began in the region. American did not the

3185
03:07:53,319 --> 03:07:58,319
forces and being even outside of Japan, really but even

3186
03:07:58,360 --> 03:08:02,639
that is our uh, you know, to prosecute a major

3187
03:08:02,760 --> 03:08:05,799
war in the Far East or they or they you know,

3188
03:08:05,840 --> 03:08:08,520
those forces weren't present before the outset of hostilities in

3189
03:08:08,600 --> 03:08:14,639
nineteen fifty you know, the UH in the aftermath of Korea,

3190
03:08:14,959 --> 03:08:18,360
you know, the the Department of Defense, it it asked

3191
03:08:18,399 --> 03:08:20,280
for the defense budget to be tripled, and it got

3192
03:08:20,319 --> 03:08:24,760
its way, and it truly integrated military alliance developed in

3193
03:08:24,840 --> 03:08:27,719
Europe under American Supreme Command. I mean that's built NATO

3194
03:08:27,840 --> 03:08:30,360
was the Korean War. Before that, there was you know,

3195
03:08:30,440 --> 03:08:34,360
talk of a European defense community. There was real hostility

3196
03:08:34,440 --> 03:08:37,479
to the you know to UH the UH the idea

3197
03:08:37,479 --> 03:08:40,559
of an in of of American for being in any

3198
03:08:41,079 --> 03:08:44,239
any in any real you know, numbers remaining in Europe.

3199
03:08:44,280 --> 03:08:45,959
And I'm not saying it's a good thing that that

3200
03:08:46,159 --> 03:08:49,000
that this is what happened, But in terms of UH

3201
03:08:49,639 --> 03:08:54,040
you know, relative power UH and and between the United

3202
03:08:54,040 --> 03:08:56,440
States and and the Soviet Union and what became the

3203
03:08:56,440 --> 03:09:00,120
warsaw packed, this really just really changed things uh uh

3204
03:09:00,239 --> 03:09:02,959
and and skewed the strategic landscape against the interests of

3205
03:09:02,959 --> 03:09:08,840
the communists. I believe the UH it it it gave

3206
03:09:08,879 --> 03:09:11,959
the United States a certain credibility in terms of multilateral action,

3207
03:09:12,440 --> 03:09:14,719
or at least the appearance of it. You know it

3208
03:09:14,959 --> 03:09:19,639
uh it bade basically Congress UH gave a blank check

3209
03:09:19,719 --> 03:09:23,680
to UH Eisenhower subsequently, you know, to beef up these

3210
03:09:23,760 --> 03:09:26,360
client regimes you know in Africa and the Ear East

3211
03:09:26,479 --> 03:09:28,920
and in the Orient, you know, and and throw huge

3212
03:09:28,959 --> 03:09:31,319
amounts of hardware at them. And you know, this was

3213
03:09:31,440 --> 03:09:33,840
this was the catalyst really for the you know, for

3214
03:09:34,040 --> 03:09:36,520
for American special warfare. I know, like Kennedy gets all

3215
03:09:36,559 --> 03:09:38,680
the credit for that, you know, and that's why you

3216
03:09:38,719 --> 03:09:41,200
know this this the spec War centers you know, literally

3217
03:09:41,319 --> 03:09:44,040
named for him. But you know this was really like

3218
03:09:44,159 --> 03:09:47,200
like spec war and special operations really became a thing,

3219
03:09:48,000 --> 03:09:50,600
you know, UH during the Eisenhower era, you know. And

3220
03:09:50,639 --> 03:09:53,520
then this oh to UH the experience of Korea and

3221
03:09:53,600 --> 03:09:59,879
things like that, and Stalin Stalin had been UH Stalin related.

3222
03:10:00,000 --> 03:10:01,719
I don't want the Korean War to happen. I mean,

3223
03:10:01,719 --> 03:10:03,719
he had, he didn't have any problem with it. He

3224
03:10:03,879 --> 03:10:07,520
greenlit it when uh when Mao U was able to

3225
03:10:07,600 --> 03:10:10,239
convince him. But Mao and and Kim Olt Sung were

3226
03:10:10,239 --> 03:10:12,360
able to convince him that you know, victory would be

3227
03:10:12,440 --> 03:10:14,879
rapid and initially, I mean it did appear that that

3228
03:10:14,959 --> 03:10:18,559
would be the case. You know, the the U Republic

3229
03:10:18,600 --> 03:10:21,239
of Korean forces got pushed back to Pusan and the

3230
03:10:21,280 --> 03:10:23,639
perimeter was this tiny little corner literally the Republic of

3231
03:10:23,719 --> 03:10:29,239
Korea until uh, I mean, those guys fought fought hard.

3232
03:10:29,280 --> 03:10:31,920
I'm not putting shade on on the South Koreans, but

3233
03:10:31,920 --> 03:10:33,120
I mean, you know, they they were, they were they

3234
03:10:33,159 --> 03:10:37,440
were totally routed. It wasn't. Uh, it wasn't until you know,

3235
03:10:37,559 --> 03:10:40,399
the the Incheon landings, you know, cut the country in

3236
03:10:40,479 --> 03:10:46,040
half basically, and uh, you know, the UN forces essentially

3237
03:10:46,079 --> 03:10:49,000
fought this kind of desperate rear reaction and uh and

3238
03:10:49,079 --> 03:10:51,959
pushed the communists all the way back like literally to

3239
03:10:51,959 --> 03:10:53,680
the Yellow River. And I mean obviously that you know,

3240
03:10:54,559 --> 03:10:59,280
that's what triggered intervention by the Red Chinese. But but

3241
03:11:00,159 --> 03:11:03,920
but playing you know, this was not despite someone like

3242
03:11:04,000 --> 03:11:08,319
the Cold the Cold War Hawks alleged this is not

3243
03:11:08,479 --> 03:11:11,399
Stalin like you know, sitting in Moscow, you know, trying

3244
03:11:11,440 --> 03:11:13,920
to you know, go to America into this Asian war,

3245
03:11:14,399 --> 03:11:17,680
you know, whereby then you know, uh, the pots whatever

3246
03:11:17,879 --> 03:11:20,120
have an opportunity on Berlin or something like that was

3247
03:11:20,159 --> 03:11:22,319
and then but it just you know, didn't go as planned, Like,

3248
03:11:22,399 --> 03:11:25,959
it's not what happened at all. But you know, the uh,

3249
03:11:27,079 --> 03:11:30,399
what Stalin was really doing, in my opinion is uh

3250
03:11:31,079 --> 03:11:34,600
Stalin realized that the Soviet Union needed China. Okay, the

3251
03:11:34,680 --> 03:11:36,840
Soviet Union needed China as much as the United States

3252
03:11:36,879 --> 03:11:41,360
needed Western Europe. Because what became the Warsaw Pact, this

3253
03:11:41,520 --> 03:11:43,440
was this was not some sort of you know, equivalent

3254
03:11:43,520 --> 03:11:45,719
to Western Europe or it's some sort of equivalent to

3255
03:11:45,799 --> 03:11:49,399
the you know, the capital base uh and and resources

3256
03:11:49,520 --> 03:11:52,479
human material that you know, America and the UK had

3257
03:11:52,559 --> 03:11:55,600
in NATO. Really all the Warsaw Pact was, with the

3258
03:11:55,639 --> 03:11:59,920
exception of East Journey was U was the defense court

3259
03:12:00,079 --> 03:12:02,559
on you know, it was literally space where in you know,

3260
03:12:02,840 --> 03:12:05,200
the right army could deploy in depth to protect itself

3261
03:12:05,319 --> 03:12:08,479
or the stage you know what they characterized to preemptive

3262
03:12:08,479 --> 03:12:14,719
as against NATO, so occupying occupying Poland with hostility, you know, uh,

3263
03:12:15,520 --> 03:12:17,920
you know, and you know, creating like a climber theme

3264
03:12:17,959 --> 03:12:21,000
in Bulgaria like this, these things are these not profiting

3265
03:12:21,040 --> 03:12:23,520
the Soviet Union and these things were huge dreams, okay,

3266
03:12:24,159 --> 03:12:27,719
But what the Soviets had was the Soviets had China

3267
03:12:27,760 --> 03:12:30,239
and even though China was you know, very very underdeveloped

3268
03:12:30,239 --> 03:12:33,600
at that time in power political terms, you know, pure

3269
03:12:33,639 --> 03:12:40,360
military terms, there's incredible power potential and frankly a communist

3270
03:12:40,440 --> 03:12:44,360
block that's literally from uh, you know, from Berlin uh

3271
03:12:45,799 --> 03:12:50,360
uh to uh to Handoi contiguously. I mean that that's

3272
03:12:50,399 --> 03:12:52,840
a good that that's about that's about a fifth of

3273
03:12:52,920 --> 03:12:56,840
this planet. Okay, just the just the raw kind of

3274
03:12:56,879 --> 03:13:03,920
geostrategic momentum of that is incredible. So this uh, this uh,

3275
03:13:04,799 --> 03:13:07,120
that was a lot of what underlay kind of this

3276
03:13:07,559 --> 03:13:10,680
this the apparently it's on the service kind of odd

3277
03:13:10,760 --> 03:13:15,079
posture that Stalin had towards towards the Chinese and and

3278
03:13:15,159 --> 03:13:19,239
the Chinese War against the Americans. But it also it

3279
03:13:19,319 --> 03:13:21,799
did lay the foundation for the sign of Soviets split

3280
03:13:21,959 --> 03:13:24,760
because the Soviets were not generous and there's and their

3281
03:13:24,799 --> 03:13:26,719
material support at China, and they very much made it

3282
03:13:26,799 --> 03:13:28,600
clear that you know, they dude China as their client

3283
03:13:28,760 --> 03:13:34,200
regime and uh, they would not Stalin would not commit

3284
03:13:34,360 --> 03:13:40,879
to a a proportionate response if if America deployed you know,

3285
03:13:40,959 --> 03:13:43,879
atomic weapons, uh you know what they were as as

3286
03:13:43,879 --> 03:13:47,360
atomic bombs, you know, against against the knees and don't

3287
03:13:47,360 --> 03:13:50,040
get me wrong. I mean mal himself, Uh well, I

3288
03:13:50,079 --> 03:13:52,520
think was something of a crazy person and somewhat primitive.

3289
03:13:52,559 --> 03:13:55,399
Frankly of mind, I I do believe he was basically

3290
03:13:55,479 --> 03:13:59,920
playing spoken and and he said knowing certain terms that

3291
03:14:00,040 --> 03:14:04,079
that you know, the you know, the reason why you know,

3292
03:14:04,360 --> 03:14:07,200
Pete King would not give its loyalty to to Cruse

3293
03:14:07,280 --> 03:14:09,440
Chef is because Crusier was not the man that Snalin

3294
03:14:09,639 --> 03:14:14,360
Wasn't you know, Stalin was a remarkable figure. I mean,

3295
03:14:14,479 --> 03:14:17,920
whatever else we can spout him. And but by my

3296
03:14:18,000 --> 03:14:20,520
point being that you know, the man was with Stalin

3297
03:14:20,559 --> 03:14:24,200
at the helm, the kind of relationship I just described,

3298
03:14:24,280 --> 03:14:27,399
you know, characterized by the Chinese being very much subordinate

3299
03:14:27,760 --> 03:14:32,479
to Moscow. Grudgingly, the Chinese would have accepted that under Stalin.

3300
03:14:32,520 --> 03:14:35,479
They would not accept that under you know, some under

3301
03:14:35,559 --> 03:14:39,000
some under some apparatic like like cruise chief or under

3302
03:14:39,719 --> 03:14:42,479
you know, some kind of uh you know, and under

3303
03:14:42,559 --> 03:14:46,399
some kind of uh you know, octapaneery and dictator like

3304
03:14:46,479 --> 03:14:49,239
prison of But that's what I said, the scope of

3305
03:14:49,319 --> 03:14:53,399
what I wanted to cover here what it did and

3306
03:14:54,040 --> 03:14:56,159
what what it did do on the communist side, uh

3307
03:14:57,280 --> 03:15:00,959
and in kind of like the victory column as it were.

3308
03:15:01,799 --> 03:15:04,319
I mean, China did fight the United States to a standstill,

3309
03:15:04,479 --> 03:15:07,479
and I mean that was no small thing, Okay, I mean, yeah,

3310
03:15:07,559 --> 03:15:10,639
the Chinese had certain advantages on the ground, but America

3311
03:15:10,799 --> 03:15:14,760
then had tremendous military might. You know, it's a huge

3312
03:15:14,799 --> 03:15:20,760
disterity and t G the Chinese absorb these casualties. But

3313
03:15:20,959 --> 03:15:24,280
I mean that you know that uh, that that emboldened,

3314
03:15:24,719 --> 03:15:27,399
that embolden, the hoaching, that emboldened Paul Pott, you know,

3315
03:15:27,479 --> 03:15:34,600
that emboldened uh you know, uh that bolden one hundred insurgencies,

3316
03:15:34,879 --> 03:15:38,920
you know on every continent that uh, you know, the

3317
03:15:39,000 --> 03:15:43,280
United States is not invincible, you know, and that uh,

3318
03:15:43,680 --> 03:15:48,559
I think that I think I can't really be overstated.

3319
03:15:48,639 --> 03:15:51,879
And you know when people people I had a kind

3320
03:15:51,920 --> 03:15:55,239
of substantiate my claim that you know, the Soviet Union

3321
03:15:55,319 --> 03:15:59,239
really you know, kind of developed uh not so subtle

3322
03:15:59,280 --> 03:16:03,159
credibility prop album and in uh in in in the

3323
03:16:03,200 --> 03:16:05,319
way of the Korean War, you know, it was it

3324
03:16:05,440 --> 03:16:07,520
was a year before Stalin died. It was March tenth,

3325
03:16:07,559 --> 03:16:10,399
ay to you know, some died basically right by after

3326
03:16:10,440 --> 03:16:15,920
cessation of hostilities, uh In uh in Korea, and uh

3327
03:16:17,000 --> 03:16:19,680
it was we talked about the Stalin memo or the

3328
03:16:19,760 --> 03:16:23,639
Stalin note last time, you know what was called the

3329
03:16:23,879 --> 03:16:26,479
heat nooked and and some of the some European media.

3330
03:16:26,719 --> 03:16:29,280
So later on, you know, when kind of the comments

3331
03:16:29,319 --> 03:16:32,799
this more publicized. But you know, Stalin's notion was uh,

3332
03:16:33,760 --> 03:16:38,159
a demilitarized Germany, you know, know, as a neutral zone.

3333
03:16:38,200 --> 03:16:41,959
You know, Germany being retained a kind of nominal military

3334
03:16:42,120 --> 03:16:47,120
force under a under its own authority. But you know,

3335
03:16:47,440 --> 03:16:50,879
all all all troops you know, gone from German soil

3336
03:16:51,440 --> 03:16:54,399
and a you know, and and then and this jury

3337
03:16:54,520 --> 03:16:59,079
neutrality enforced on Germany. How that would be enforced? I

3338
03:16:59,319 --> 03:17:03,000
was never really clear because nego she didn't reach that point.

3339
03:17:03,000 --> 03:17:06,239
I would assume, you know, uh, some kind of un

3340
03:17:06,360 --> 03:17:09,920
manny would have would have been you know that it was.

3341
03:17:10,280 --> 03:17:13,079
It was managed, but be as it may, there's a

3342
03:17:13,159 --> 03:17:16,479
reason why you don't. I mean, yeah, obviously the Soviet Union,

3343
03:17:16,760 --> 03:17:20,760
they're big, they're they're big. Problem was uh, you know,

3344
03:17:20,840 --> 03:17:23,280
the strategic and some of the fact that you know,

3345
03:17:23,399 --> 03:17:26,159
NATO was at their doorstep what became NATO, and then

3346
03:17:26,440 --> 03:17:29,520
you know it was at their doorstep. I realized NATO

3347
03:17:29,760 --> 03:17:33,280
was was uh incorporated forty nine but it was about

3348
03:17:33,319 --> 03:17:35,360
ten years, in my opinion, before it became a truly

3349
03:17:35,520 --> 03:17:40,399
you know, like it integrated comy force other than just

3350
03:17:40,559 --> 03:17:43,600
uh you know kind of a you kind of kind

3351
03:17:43,600 --> 03:17:47,079
of a kind of mandated for you know, operate within

3352
03:17:47,120 --> 03:17:51,159
the borders of these at least nominally sovereign states. But uh,

3353
03:17:51,319 --> 03:17:53,479
you know the reason, you know, you know, the reason

3354
03:17:53,479 --> 03:17:56,799
why Stalin made the effort when he did, you know,

3355
03:17:57,600 --> 03:17:59,559
if the Soviets were in this great kind of position

3356
03:17:59,600 --> 03:18:05,319
to strength and you know, in uh in power political terms,

3357
03:18:05,639 --> 03:18:07,479
you know, the Korean War was you know, really going

3358
03:18:07,559 --> 03:18:10,280
their way and really kind of uh you know, breaking

3359
03:18:10,319 --> 03:18:13,479
the face not just a Truman, but of uh of

3360
03:18:13,600 --> 03:18:18,079
the entire an entire kind of Cold War apparatus. I

3361
03:18:18,159 --> 03:18:20,239
mean that that would not that that's not what he

3362
03:18:20,239 --> 03:18:25,360
would have been doing, but the uh, it's also to

3363
03:18:25,520 --> 03:18:26,799
the fact that I mean it was dooming to fail

3364
03:18:26,879 --> 03:18:29,360
because I mean this was submitted a mere eight months

3365
03:18:29,399 --> 03:18:33,879
before the present election, you know, and I realize, you know,

3366
03:18:34,000 --> 03:18:37,159
I realized Eisenhower wasn't any arch warhawk, but he was

3367
03:18:37,719 --> 03:18:40,040
he was a military man, and he was he he

3368
03:18:40,200 --> 03:18:43,479
was viewed, uh you know kind of as uh, the

3369
03:18:43,559 --> 03:18:45,920
Soviets were afraid of him, number one. And that's that's all.

3370
03:18:46,239 --> 03:18:49,399
That's an interesting topic and to itself, but point being,

3371
03:18:49,479 --> 03:18:52,680
for better or worse, regardless of what everybody feels about

3372
03:18:52,680 --> 03:18:54,479
Eisenhower in history, you know, like he was, he was

3373
03:18:54,600 --> 03:18:56,760
viewed as the man to wage the Cold War, Okay,

3374
03:18:56,799 --> 03:19:00,000
and that that's really what kind of catapulticed him new office.

3375
03:19:01,360 --> 03:19:07,479
But even even taking Eisenower of the equation, obviously obviously

3376
03:19:07,559 --> 03:19:10,360
eight months out from uh from from a from a

3377
03:19:10,399 --> 03:19:13,879
presidential contest, nobody's gonna, you know, nobody's gonna be willing

3378
03:19:13,920 --> 03:19:18,200
to undertake uh, you know, some kind of shift in

3379
03:19:18,399 --> 03:19:21,319
uh in in status or relations with the Soviet Union,

3380
03:19:21,479 --> 03:19:24,600
you know, in in ninety fifty two of all of

3381
03:19:24,719 --> 03:19:29,959
all years. But what I want to kind of segue

3382
03:19:30,079 --> 03:19:32,559
into is the person at conray at add an Hour,

3383
03:19:32,719 --> 03:19:34,440
Like before I said a recording, I said, I wanted

3384
03:19:34,479 --> 03:19:37,040
to get into the culture that boomed this republic and

3385
03:19:37,319 --> 03:19:40,680
how they came about and why it came about. Understand

3386
03:19:40,719 --> 03:19:45,000
that you gotta understand ad Hour, you know, and now

3387
03:19:45,159 --> 03:19:48,520
was the first uh, he was the first post war chancellor.

3388
03:19:49,040 --> 03:19:50,200
I mean, if you if you if you if you

3389
03:19:50,239 --> 03:19:52,959
consider Western Germany, Ben you know, like the real Germany

3390
03:19:53,079 --> 03:19:55,959
or whatever and uh, you know, the success or state

3391
03:19:56,079 --> 03:20:00,360
of uh of of of of the German Reich. You know,

3392
03:20:00,440 --> 03:20:02,360
he was he was the first post war chancellor. And

3393
03:20:02,399 --> 03:20:04,879
if if you reject that, which I I don't think

3394
03:20:04,920 --> 03:20:08,239
people do with some might I don't, I don't get

3395
03:20:08,360 --> 03:20:11,559
to the current German state and particularly legitimate that. But

3396
03:20:11,760 --> 03:20:18,399
in terms of you know, linear political uh legacy, I

3397
03:20:19,159 --> 03:20:21,719
think I don't think it's controversy will do And if

3398
03:20:21,760 --> 03:20:24,280
I had now as the you know, as the first

3399
03:20:24,399 --> 03:20:28,799
uh real post uh war executive, but he uh, and

3400
03:20:29,000 --> 03:20:31,360
it was an interesting guy. And it's kind of fancy

3401
03:20:31,440 --> 03:20:33,559
to me that he was the man did for the role,

3402
03:20:33,760 --> 03:20:36,520
but it makes perfect sense. And it goes to show

3403
03:20:36,600 --> 03:20:39,920
you how America at one time I had a real

3404
03:20:40,040 --> 03:20:43,639
political plans of a man who really really understood kind

3405
03:20:43,639 --> 03:20:46,680
of the nuances of power of politics and you know,

3406
03:20:46,719 --> 03:20:51,959
the kind of deeper implications of of of what of

3407
03:20:52,399 --> 03:20:57,520
what of what chiefs of state represent both the the

3408
03:20:57,639 --> 03:21:01,479
people whom they rule all so to uh, you know,

3409
03:21:01,639 --> 03:21:04,239
allies and foes alike. And and there was a perfect

3410
03:21:04,280 --> 03:21:08,520
example of that. And now we're uh. He was born

3411
03:21:08,559 --> 03:21:11,200
in the seventy six, so He took office when he

3412
03:21:11,280 --> 03:21:14,159
was seventy three. He stepped down when he was eighty seven.

3413
03:21:14,600 --> 03:21:18,840
I believe that makes him the oldest Yean head of

3414
03:21:18,920 --> 03:21:22,319
state in the modern era. The ten and I think

3415
03:21:22,479 --> 03:21:26,479
was eighty four eighty five. I mean, and there was

3416
03:21:26,479 --> 03:21:28,959
a remarkable guy. And he and now I was born

3417
03:21:29,000 --> 03:21:32,600
in the Catholic Rhyanland, Okay, and he was born uh

3418
03:21:34,200 --> 03:21:35,879
literally you know what the kind of zene of the

3419
03:21:35,920 --> 03:21:39,159
Bismarck's Coulter kof and for those that don't know, you

3420
03:21:39,239 --> 03:21:43,000
know Bismarck the kind of arch Prussian Protestant. He did

3421
03:21:43,079 --> 03:21:46,639
not trust Catholics. He purged Kolics from the kind of

3422
03:21:47,360 --> 03:21:53,239
civil apparatus which had by that point was quite robust.

3423
03:21:53,799 --> 03:21:55,639
You know, Prussia was really kind of a modern state.

3424
03:21:55,840 --> 03:21:58,399
You know, they had they they had the kind of

3425
03:21:58,399 --> 03:22:02,319
the you know, real pension system if the I mean

3426
03:22:02,360 --> 03:22:04,879
it's anybody who can make like a kind of welfare

3427
03:22:04,920 --> 03:22:08,719
state apparatus work against the Germans, and they did. That

3428
03:22:08,799 --> 03:22:12,040
can't be argued. I'm not a particularly I'm not some

3429
03:22:12,159 --> 03:22:15,840
big government uh you know, Keynesian type or anything at all,

3430
03:22:16,319 --> 03:22:20,559
but even you know, I stipulate that pressure ran with

3431
03:22:20,760 --> 03:22:25,680
uh with true uh, you know, kind of military efficiency

3432
03:22:25,760 --> 03:22:28,239
and all the best uh, you know, in all almost

3433
03:22:28,239 --> 03:22:31,719
a lot of ways. But one of the things Bismarck

3434
03:22:31,799 --> 03:22:36,000
did was, uh he very very much purged Catholics from

3435
03:22:36,159 --> 03:22:41,680
uh positions of authority. And it was it wasn't brutal

3436
03:22:41,719 --> 03:22:43,840
in the sense of, you know, Catholics weren't rounded up

3437
03:22:43,879 --> 03:22:47,239
and shot or something and weren't availed U you know

3438
03:22:47,360 --> 03:22:50,680
that the physical violence, but they really were locked out

3439
03:22:50,680 --> 03:22:53,559
of out of political and cuffair as well practical purposes.

3440
03:22:53,639 --> 03:22:55,559
And and this this made it this, this had made

3441
03:22:55,559 --> 03:22:59,559
a huge impact on the end. Okay, not only because

3442
03:22:59,600 --> 03:23:02,399
he was a Catholic, but you know, his his family

3443
03:23:02,559 --> 03:23:05,280
was was very politically engaged, you know, and now himself

3444
03:23:05,440 --> 03:23:09,000
obviously this is you know, was his career path. He

3445
03:23:10,239 --> 03:23:13,120
he considered this, you know, very very unjust and because

3446
03:23:13,159 --> 03:23:17,000
he actually was devout, you know, and now it was

3447
03:23:17,040 --> 03:23:20,600
not his Catholicism is not superficial, and it wasn't just

3448
03:23:22,360 --> 03:23:25,799
it wasn't just you know, kind of a like a

3449
03:23:25,840 --> 03:23:31,319
perfunctory uh identitarian signifier. You know, he was very very Catholic,

3450
03:23:33,200 --> 03:23:37,440
and uh he found his way uh to the uh

3451
03:23:38,000 --> 03:23:40,000
to the center party, you know, way which was the

3452
03:23:40,159 --> 03:23:44,479
Catholic Party, you know, really of a of thet boch

3453
03:23:45,239 --> 03:23:48,520
it was uh nineteen oh five, nineteen oh six. Uh

3454
03:23:49,079 --> 03:23:54,159
and now he was like the city council Cologne a

3455
03:23:54,239 --> 03:23:57,920
few years later became the vice mayor of Cologne. You know,

3456
03:23:58,040 --> 03:24:00,719
he he was considered's not of a political prom okay

3457
03:24:00,840 --> 03:24:03,799
and he uh he was again too. He wore his

3458
03:24:03,840 --> 03:24:07,239
Catholicism on his sleeve. But he was respected pretty much

3459
03:24:07,280 --> 03:24:10,799
by everybody, I mean even by the even even kind

3460
03:24:10,840 --> 03:24:12,680
of the most you know, kind of by kind of

3461
03:24:12,719 --> 03:24:16,559
the most dedicated Persian like culture warriors. You know, everybody,

3462
03:24:17,120 --> 03:24:19,200
everybody respected him. You know, he was he was a

3463
03:24:19,239 --> 03:24:26,440
man of of my integrity, Okay he uh. He was

3464
03:24:26,520 --> 03:24:31,319
adamantly opposed at political extremism, but not in not not

3465
03:24:31,440 --> 03:24:34,280
in kind of the way that you know, Carl Schmidt disdained,

3466
03:24:34,360 --> 03:24:35,959
you know, the he was not the kind of the

3467
03:24:36,000 --> 03:24:41,479
parliamentarian who believes in endless discussion and supervisial compromises. And

3468
03:24:41,639 --> 03:24:43,879
now it really did believe that, you know, the cunning

3469
03:24:43,920 --> 03:24:45,600
of reason and history and you know, the kind of

3470
03:24:45,639 --> 03:24:48,000
the mind of God is what is what guides politics

3471
03:24:48,079 --> 03:24:51,079
and and and men are kind of limited participants and

3472
03:24:51,840 --> 03:24:56,680
in affairs of state it uh you know he uh

3473
03:24:57,719 --> 03:25:00,120
he was dedicated to rooting out disorder and official and

3474
03:25:00,200 --> 03:25:03,440
see irrationality. He was very much a moralist. You know,

3475
03:25:03,479 --> 03:25:06,959
he had no talent for corruption, but he uh you

3476
03:25:07,040 --> 03:25:09,360
know he had uh he he had no time for

3477
03:25:09,799 --> 03:25:12,760
for ideologies of of of the right as well as

3478
03:25:12,799 --> 03:25:17,719
the left, you know it. Uh I think uh, I

3479
03:25:17,799 --> 03:25:22,159
think of him as somewhat like uh. I think he

3480
03:25:22,200 --> 03:25:25,479
had something kind of with people like Dolphus in Austria. Okay,

3481
03:25:27,120 --> 03:25:34,239
frankly he was a centrist, yeah, yeah, but an authoritarian

3482
03:25:34,280 --> 03:25:37,319
when called for. But also again too, I mean very

3483
03:25:37,799 --> 03:25:41,200
not not at all secularists, you know, very very much

3484
03:25:41,319 --> 03:25:45,600
you know, Catholic, and his his orientation and and then

3485
03:25:45,760 --> 03:25:49,319
uh in his evaluation of of them of what you know,

3486
03:25:49,360 --> 03:25:52,120
the metric is for good government. But uh, I mean

3487
03:25:52,440 --> 03:25:55,719
his political culture is very different than the one they

3488
03:25:55,799 --> 03:26:00,280
had now emerged from. And the uh the kind of

3489
03:26:02,040 --> 03:26:05,040
the kind of the kind of quasi clericalism of somebody

3490
03:26:05,120 --> 03:26:07,440
like Dolphus, you know, like and I wasn't running around

3491
03:26:07,479 --> 03:26:10,360
you know, like like instilling priests and in the city

3492
03:26:10,440 --> 03:26:13,639
apparatus or something like that. Okay, but he but he

3493
03:26:13,799 --> 03:26:16,000
was he was not at all kind of the secularist

3494
03:26:16,000 --> 03:26:19,239
parliamentary and like I said that that people sort of

3495
03:26:19,280 --> 03:26:23,000
associate with with with you know, compromisers, the of the

3496
03:26:24,159 --> 03:26:26,040
of the kaiser Reich and the and the m Era,

3497
03:26:26,280 --> 03:26:30,799
you know, I mean the uh, the kind of the

3498
03:26:30,920 --> 03:26:35,159
kind of toxic parliamentarism that that Schmidt lamented. I mean, yeah,

3499
03:26:35,200 --> 03:26:37,879
obviously reached a zenith and Weimar for obvious reasons. But

3500
03:26:38,840 --> 03:26:41,440
this kind of thing is you know, like it really

3501
03:26:41,680 --> 03:26:46,040
it really did. And that's that's important to bear in

3502
03:26:46,120 --> 03:26:52,040
my mind. But no, so it became he became nationally

3503
03:26:52,159 --> 03:26:59,319
known during the Great War. Uh he uh he involved himself,

3504
03:26:59,520 --> 03:27:05,639
uh you know as as uh as as a merit colone.

3505
03:27:07,120 --> 03:27:11,000
He involved themself very much and managing never threw remedy,

3506
03:27:11,040 --> 03:27:14,879
you know, food shortages born of the embargo. Uh it

3507
03:27:14,959 --> 03:27:18,239
was an eally like uh like sausage derived from soy.

3508
03:27:18,280 --> 03:27:23,239
You think this these kinds of alternative uh food technologies

3509
03:27:24,959 --> 03:27:28,840
and power was responsible for getting of found you know,

3510
03:27:29,479 --> 03:27:32,719
which which was revolutionary in those days. You know. He

3511
03:27:32,879 --> 03:27:37,520
uh he worked handled with the army and uh availing

3512
03:27:37,559 --> 03:27:40,600
colone is uh as as a base of supply and

3513
03:27:41,600 --> 03:27:45,840
and as a hub, you know, to reconstitute forces and

3514
03:27:45,920 --> 03:27:48,959
things like this. You know, he uh he really really

3515
03:27:49,079 --> 03:27:53,840
rose to the occasion, you know, and became something of

3516
03:27:53,879 --> 03:27:55,760
a hero of figure in the minds of people, not

3517
03:27:55,959 --> 03:28:01,000
just in Cologne, but uh, you know, he became quite

3518
03:28:01,040 --> 03:28:09,760
well about the Reich. Uh however, uh he uh he

3519
03:28:10,000 --> 03:28:13,399
uh he was somebody who became something an intermediate, something

3520
03:28:13,440 --> 03:28:21,719
of an intermediary uh between uh, between elements and in Berlin,

3521
03:28:23,319 --> 03:28:26,079
which is interesting. And when it became clear that uh,

3522
03:28:26,799 --> 03:28:30,280
when it became clear that uh, the the French intended

3523
03:28:30,280 --> 03:28:35,079
to occupy the Prussian Ryeland, he had the Monciulolian notion

3524
03:28:35,319 --> 03:28:39,360
of dissolving, uh, dissolving the Ryeland and into a new

3525
03:28:39,399 --> 03:28:45,440
autonomous state kind of like a demilitarized zone that uh

3526
03:28:46,440 --> 03:28:49,239
would uh you know, with the stipulation that the French

3527
03:28:49,319 --> 03:28:54,600
would would not occupy it and uh the foreign element

3528
03:28:54,680 --> 03:28:58,159
would uh set foot on its soil. You know. It's

3529
03:28:58,159 --> 03:29:00,719
because it being this kind of like you know, nomenal

3530
03:29:00,760 --> 03:29:05,399
atime zone. And uh, both the Prussian uh governments and

3531
03:29:06,680 --> 03:29:12,280
yeah and uh and the Byment regime were totally against

3532
03:29:12,959 --> 03:29:16,040
I think planned to bring up Russia with the Via regime.

3533
03:29:16,280 --> 03:29:18,799
This was in nineteen nineteen. Yeah, I mean, I mean

3534
03:29:19,000 --> 03:29:23,559
before I mean, we have to advocate the what remained

3535
03:29:23,559 --> 03:29:25,399
of the right government was totally opposed to it, but

3536
03:29:25,520 --> 03:29:27,639
it was an The point is that was very that

3537
03:29:27,760 --> 03:29:30,639
was very forward looking in it's thinking and very much

3538
03:29:30,840 --> 03:29:34,360
uh and very subtle kind of and it's and it's cunning,

3539
03:29:34,799 --> 03:29:41,079
and that kind of became characteristic of our Uh. He

3540
03:29:41,239 --> 03:29:45,040
also too, uh when it was the treaty ever Sai,

3541
03:29:45,239 --> 03:29:50,159
which was presented formerly in June nineteen nineteen and now

3542
03:29:50,200 --> 03:29:52,799
we're new as anybody did, it was in the know

3543
03:29:53,559 --> 03:29:58,520
that some sort of punitive regime was gonna be coming

3544
03:29:58,879 --> 03:30:03,479
down the pipeline. And uh, I think his idea was that, uh,

3545
03:30:04,840 --> 03:30:08,760
you know, the less kind of like the more like evolved,

3546
03:30:09,079 --> 03:30:11,920
uh the Reich was like the harder it would be,

3547
03:30:12,280 --> 03:30:17,079
uh you know, to kind of bleed it dry. It's

3548
03:30:17,280 --> 03:30:21,000
uh you can kind of definitely, uh, you can kind

3549
03:30:21,000 --> 03:30:23,319
of definitely tie up reparations regime if you know, you

3550
03:30:23,479 --> 03:30:25,440
have this kind of if you have a kind of

3551
03:30:25,479 --> 03:30:29,120
bold the sovereignty, you know, in all kinds of ways.

3552
03:30:29,200 --> 03:30:34,520
So it's uh, he he had Germany's best interest in

3553
03:30:34,600 --> 03:30:40,440
mind in these things. He was doing what was interesting,

3554
03:30:40,799 --> 03:30:47,520
is he. Uh he, he very much collided with with

3555
03:30:47,639 --> 03:30:51,639
good staff Stressman and uh you know, I've I've made

3556
03:30:51,680 --> 03:30:53,879
the point before. I think in in our in one

3557
03:30:53,920 --> 03:30:57,040
of our previous series that Stressman was a compelling guy

3558
03:30:57,120 --> 03:30:59,440
and I think he's not. I think he's never really

3559
03:30:59,440 --> 03:31:01,360
given to think of MS is kind of account to

3560
03:31:01,440 --> 03:31:04,000
Ramsey McDonald. I think it's kind of an unsung figure

3561
03:31:04,040 --> 03:31:10,319
in British politics. And never looked at stress him as

3562
03:31:10,360 --> 03:31:15,879
being too Prussian. He looked at him as uh, you know,

3563
03:31:16,799 --> 03:31:19,920
not uh not not not just no a viable for

3564
03:31:20,000 --> 03:31:24,239
the chancellorship because Ed now did in fact covid uh

3565
03:31:25,200 --> 03:31:29,600
the office. But uh he uh you know, he viewed

3566
03:31:29,639 --> 03:31:32,319
his vision as fundamentally at odds with what was you know,

3567
03:31:33,239 --> 03:31:39,079
possible and feasible, and uh that's really kind of sabotage,

3568
03:31:41,360 --> 03:31:46,120
sabotage and naws designs. The idea was, uh, you know,

3569
03:31:46,239 --> 03:31:50,719
for the a coalition of the Christian Krants and the

3570
03:31:52,200 --> 03:31:57,000
and the and the Center Party, you know, uh to

3571
03:31:57,280 --> 03:32:01,959
uh to constant the ruling quors and and at our

3572
03:32:02,280 --> 03:32:05,799
true to form, he'd he'd he managed developed good offices

3573
03:32:05,840 --> 03:32:09,040
with the Social Democrats as well. He refused to negotiate

3574
03:32:09,079 --> 03:32:13,040
with the Communists, but he'd managed to decople a lot

3575
03:32:13,120 --> 03:32:16,920
of key figures of the Social Democrats from the KPD,

3576
03:32:17,840 --> 03:32:21,120
and this caused a lot of consternation obviously on the left,

3577
03:32:21,239 --> 03:32:23,079
which was you know, kind of a brilliant play by

3578
03:32:23,120 --> 03:32:26,639
add an Hour, but it also it ingratiated you know,

3579
03:32:26,799 --> 03:32:29,360
certain people to him that, you know, moving forward would

3580
03:32:29,360 --> 03:32:32,520
have facilitated, uh, you know, a real you know, a

3581
03:32:32,600 --> 03:32:35,479
coalition that actually had legs and trans of its ability

3582
03:32:35,559 --> 03:32:40,559
to to pass legislation and and and and take you know,

3583
03:32:41,079 --> 03:32:45,360
executive take unilateral action when required, and and and had

3584
03:32:45,399 --> 03:32:48,399
something of a mandate across the aisle, which was remarkable

3585
03:32:48,520 --> 03:32:54,239
for nineteen twenty six. But uh, his kind of is

3586
03:32:54,319 --> 03:32:58,520
his personal collisions with uh, with Stressmen ended all of that.

3587
03:32:59,680 --> 03:33:02,360
I mean that that could be a whole episode into itself.

3588
03:33:02,479 --> 03:33:07,760
But what's what's segnific again is when uh, you know,

3589
03:33:08,079 --> 03:33:12,879
the National Socialists uh breakthrough in in nin or breakthroughs

3590
03:33:12,959 --> 03:33:17,520
in nineteen thirty and thirty two. And now it wasn't

3591
03:33:17,520 --> 03:33:19,239
just Marri Cologne, but he was president of the Prussian

3592
03:33:19,319 --> 03:33:26,079
State Council, you know, and uh, obviously, uh, the National Socialists,

3593
03:33:27,600 --> 03:33:30,920
one of their key and stituency, not because they had

3594
03:33:30,959 --> 03:33:33,319
you know, said strong soup around when in elite circles

3595
03:33:33,319 --> 03:33:38,000
they certainly, but also just I mean, you know, appreciating

3596
03:33:38,600 --> 03:33:44,520
the political uh you know, the like the political core

3597
03:33:45,120 --> 03:33:50,520
of the German Reich. And now said on the Prussian

3598
03:33:50,559 --> 03:33:54,000
State Council meant that he was either going to have

3599
03:33:54,079 --> 03:33:56,559
to some kind of something, come to some kind of

3600
03:33:56,600 --> 03:34:00,799
concord or the National Socialists or step aside. And uh,

3601
03:34:01,760 --> 03:34:08,639
interestingly it uh went on the night of the Long

3602
03:34:08,719 --> 03:34:13,799
Knives and now was I actually arrested and uh not

3603
03:34:14,120 --> 03:34:16,719
allegedly for his own protection. And he wasn't harmed anyway,

3604
03:34:17,120 --> 03:34:21,479
and he was released after the after the uh you know,

3605
03:34:21,559 --> 03:34:25,000
after the after the dirty work of the bloody business

3606
03:34:25,079 --> 03:34:30,600
of we're out the revolutionaries was done. But he wrote

3607
03:34:30,600 --> 03:34:32,760
a ten page letter to Gering you know who. But

3608
03:34:33,200 --> 03:34:37,319
then uh was Galli or Prussia and as well as

3609
03:34:37,360 --> 03:34:39,760
the chief of the Prussian police, you know. And he

3610
03:34:39,840 --> 03:34:41,600
made the point at Geary and he said that, you know,

3611
03:34:41,760 --> 03:34:45,479
when when the National Socialist Party was banned, I allowed

3612
03:34:45,479 --> 03:34:48,719
your people to you know, fly your national flags and

3613
03:34:48,760 --> 03:34:54,879
Prussian buildings I build of uh you know, our public facilities,

3614
03:34:55,040 --> 03:34:57,639
you know, to the National Socialists, so you to hold

3615
03:34:57,639 --> 03:35:00,639
your meeting, you know, because I wasn't I was, I

3616
03:35:00,719 --> 03:35:04,440
wasn't gonna. I wasn't going to exclude German people and

3617
03:35:04,799 --> 03:35:08,600
you know veteran fighting minute that which most of you

3618
03:35:08,760 --> 03:35:11,559
were from the political discussion, you know. And this is

3619
03:35:11,600 --> 03:35:13,600
how you thank me is by placing me under arrest.

3620
03:35:14,319 --> 03:35:18,159
And apparently this really kind of hit Daring hard and

3621
03:35:18,239 --> 03:35:21,799
according to Spear as well as others, and I don't

3622
03:35:21,799 --> 03:35:25,840
there to be a valid uh the testimony particularly valid

3623
03:35:25,879 --> 03:35:29,639
on most matters, but on some things because he didn't

3624
03:35:29,639 --> 03:35:32,520
no reason to lie about it, I do, and I'm

3625
03:35:33,520 --> 03:35:36,559
according to Spear, Hitler made the point that Hour was

3626
03:35:36,600 --> 03:35:39,239
a good man and regardless of our differences within him,

3627
03:35:39,280 --> 03:35:42,120
our main National Socialists, you know, we we leave him alone,

3628
03:35:42,559 --> 03:35:46,399
you know. And that's basically what happened. I mean, he

3629
03:35:46,680 --> 03:35:50,639
was and now refused to He didn't he not only

3630
03:35:50,760 --> 03:35:53,879
he refused to join the party, but he he he

3631
03:35:54,000 --> 03:35:56,159
you know, he basically refused after the rest, he refused

3632
03:35:56,200 --> 03:35:58,559
to kind of cooperate in any meaningful way. Okay, so

3633
03:35:59,799 --> 03:36:02,959
he was unceremoniously removed from all you know, his his

3634
03:36:03,040 --> 03:36:07,280
remaining offices, like appointed offices, you know, and uh, you

3635
03:36:07,360 --> 03:36:10,360
know told uh, you know, you're free to go by

3636
03:36:10,399 --> 03:36:13,000
your business, but you know, in nice life, you've got

3637
03:36:13,000 --> 03:36:16,799
nothing coming. And and I actually spent uh some time

3638
03:36:16,879 --> 03:36:21,479
living in a monastery, you know. And in later years

3639
03:36:21,520 --> 03:36:22,959
he said that this is what he kind of had,

3640
03:36:23,520 --> 03:36:26,559
you know, he came to certain certain like epiphanies about

3641
03:36:27,479 --> 03:36:30,040
you know, uh, the German nation and and and what

3642
03:36:30,159 --> 03:36:33,239
configuration of state was was going to allow it to survive,

3643
03:36:33,520 --> 03:36:36,559
the German that survives the people and whatnot, which I

3644
03:36:36,559 --> 03:36:38,879
think is basically true, you know. And now was not

3645
03:36:39,040 --> 03:36:41,399
some he wasn't some intellectual or some student of history.

3646
03:36:41,440 --> 03:36:43,440
He wasn't he wasn't a guy like the Gaul or

3647
03:36:43,520 --> 03:36:47,760
like Adolf Hitler. You know, he is this kind of

3648
03:36:47,799 --> 03:36:51,360
guy pole star like we talked about, was his Catholic

3649
03:36:51,479 --> 03:36:55,680
faith and uh, you know kind of like a kind

3650
03:36:55,680 --> 03:36:58,559
of a pragmatic sense of of how to of of

3651
03:36:58,840 --> 03:37:01,440
how to constue to government. You know, that the Germans

3652
03:37:01,479 --> 03:37:04,280
could live with as a people, you know, but that

3653
03:37:04,639 --> 03:37:07,639
you know, if not ideal, would would allow their you know,

3654
03:37:08,760 --> 03:37:11,639
survival and perennial terms. And at the end of the day,

3655
03:37:11,680 --> 03:37:13,760
I mean, that's that's what the function of a government

3656
03:37:13,879 --> 03:37:16,280
is is guaranty of the posterity of a people. What

3657
03:37:16,440 --> 03:37:22,479
the and now we're being the man that the Allied

3658
03:37:22,479 --> 03:37:26,799
occupation authorities essentially chose to lead Germany is fascinating And

3659
03:37:26,879 --> 03:37:32,760
again it shows you how you know, again, at one time, however,

3660
03:37:32,920 --> 03:37:38,120
is guided the regime may have been in uh, you know,

3661
03:37:38,600 --> 03:37:42,000
just in pure in terms of pure competence, like America

3662
03:37:42,000 --> 03:37:46,159
at one time it had very very strong Department of State,

3663
03:37:47,760 --> 03:37:51,879
very very tight intelligence apparatus that allowed it to identify

3664
03:37:52,239 --> 03:37:56,799
you know who who you know who should be insinuated

3665
03:37:56,799 --> 03:37:59,920
into these roles. And I think within the bound ration

3666
03:38:00,639 --> 03:38:03,799
of what America and in the UK and France wanted

3667
03:38:03,840 --> 03:38:07,399
to accomplish in Germany like now we're the only end

3668
03:38:07,479 --> 03:38:12,920
I think could have done that. It kind of finally

3669
03:38:13,719 --> 03:38:16,319
what I now had going for him in their eyes,

3670
03:38:17,399 --> 03:38:19,959
he was he was. He was constitutionally anti Russian and

3671
03:38:20,000 --> 03:38:25,079
anti Soviet. What he did say when one of a

3672
03:38:25,159 --> 03:38:28,840
few topics he would pientificate elaborately on in theoretical and

3673
03:38:28,920 --> 03:38:32,280
historical terms was the relationship of Germany to the East

3674
03:38:33,239 --> 03:38:36,879
and UH specifically, you know, relationship of UH of the

3675
03:38:37,000 --> 03:38:41,479
German state UH to Russia, and uh, you know, he's said,

3676
03:38:41,479 --> 03:38:42,840
he talked about the kind of you know what in

3677
03:38:42,920 --> 03:38:45,920
his view was the love hate affair of Berlin with

3678
03:38:46,239 --> 03:38:49,280
with with Russia and the Russians, and you know, the

3679
03:38:49,399 --> 03:38:53,120
kind of kind of machiavilion u wit that you know,

3680
03:38:53,239 --> 03:38:57,399
kind of ultimately brings Germany into concord with the Russians

3681
03:38:57,559 --> 03:39:00,840
and other times than odds, depending on you know, the

3682
03:39:01,920 --> 03:39:05,680
depending on the characteristics of the extent strategic landscape as

3683
03:39:05,719 --> 03:39:10,440
well as the internal political situation. And uh and now

3684
03:39:10,440 --> 03:39:12,520
we're said, you know that that that that ends. Now,

3685
03:39:12,680 --> 03:39:15,799
you know, the Russians are, if not our enemies there,

3686
03:39:15,959 --> 03:39:19,120
they're certainly our adversaries. You know, we we we're gonna

3687
03:39:19,159 --> 03:39:21,239
stand with the West and with Europe and with the

3688
03:39:21,319 --> 03:39:28,200
Atlantics concord at all costs. He refused to recognize the

3689
03:39:28,319 --> 03:39:31,559
d d R at all. He said, it's not a

3690
03:39:31,639 --> 03:39:35,559
legitimate state, you know, he he denied, uh, he denied

3691
03:39:35,680 --> 03:39:40,959
them any diplomatic representation. And I mean that probably is

3692
03:39:41,040 --> 03:39:44,600
what more than any other single variable, uh is what

3693
03:39:44,879 --> 03:39:47,920
uh is what kind of made I now were acceptable

3694
03:39:48,000 --> 03:39:51,000
to the occupation of authorities, but it was it was

3695
03:39:51,040 --> 03:39:54,680
everything taken together, I mean there was the Soviet Union

3696
03:39:54,719 --> 03:39:57,559
were at Diamond, you know, ambitious guys who you know

3697
03:39:57,680 --> 03:40:00,479
hadn't been national socialists, but who hated the Russian I mean,

3698
03:40:00,639 --> 03:40:03,959
it's it's not like Nower had like a rare resume

3699
03:40:04,079 --> 03:40:09,559
in that regard, but this kind of that he had

3700
03:40:09,559 --> 03:40:13,719
a rare credit and an unusual sort of integrity. I

3701
03:40:13,840 --> 03:40:17,399
think that, coupled with this sort of unfinitional cold warrior

3702
03:40:17,520 --> 03:40:21,799
stance made him, uh, you know, kind of like the

3703
03:40:21,959 --> 03:40:26,319
natural choice. But again, I mean it's in the fact

3704
03:40:26,399 --> 03:40:30,280
that the fact that the men in charge could demonate

3705
03:40:30,360 --> 03:40:33,120
that he was a natural choice, uh, is a testament

3706
03:40:33,120 --> 03:40:35,639
to the fact that, again, at one time America had

3707
03:40:36,040 --> 03:40:41,639
a highly competent foreign policy establishment. What what what what's

3708
03:40:41,719 --> 03:40:43,920
in place now was literally can sleely illiterate? I just

3709
03:40:44,120 --> 03:40:46,200
I realize gonna make that point again and again people

3710
03:40:46,239 --> 03:40:49,120
are probably tired of it, but it's something that can't

3711
03:40:49,120 --> 03:40:55,159
be overstated. But interestingly, two, you know our he uh

3712
03:40:56,079 --> 03:40:58,600
he said that people need to say, you know, very

3713
03:40:58,639 --> 03:41:01,760
monck assessed veterans desert to be respected and they're patriots

3714
03:41:01,840 --> 03:41:04,879
and and he he said that you know, we're not

3715
03:41:04,959 --> 03:41:08,559
gonna put like shame on these men. But interestingly, the

3716
03:41:08,639 --> 03:41:13,000
reason why Auto Reamer and Hans Rudel, who both were

3717
03:41:13,200 --> 03:41:18,719
uh Reamer, was he still has the Socialist Rights Party,

3718
03:41:19,040 --> 03:41:21,479
you know, which was which in my name, was the

3719
03:41:21,559 --> 03:41:24,200
legacy party of the nsd P in real terms. And

3720
03:41:26,280 --> 03:41:30,959
they they were pro Sovietiet. They were nagatively anti Merican

3721
03:41:31,040 --> 03:41:35,319
and pro Soviet. And he, uh, he was, he was

3722
03:41:35,440 --> 03:41:38,239
very he very derisively referred to ad Now as quote

3723
03:41:38,319 --> 03:41:41,719
Rabbi ad Nour and uh, there's a lot there's been

3724
03:41:41,799 --> 03:41:45,799
a German right, the national Socialist right, who absolutely despise

3725
03:41:45,879 --> 03:41:50,639
ad Hour. But they that uh and I I I

3726
03:41:51,239 --> 03:41:56,120
understand cletely, like I get it, but it's not it's

3727
03:41:56,159 --> 03:41:57,799
not as simple as add now. We're as being like

3728
03:41:57,840 --> 03:42:00,959
I said, Nato Lackey or something or some or some

3729
03:42:01,120 --> 03:42:05,079
social democrat to uh, you know who saw an opportunity

3730
03:42:05,159 --> 03:42:08,719
and you spent the war years you know, uh, you

3731
03:42:08,799 --> 03:42:10,760
know his toy, the launder. You had to you know,

3732
03:42:10,799 --> 03:42:12,959
avoiding the front. Well so like avoiding the eye or

3733
03:42:13,040 --> 03:42:16,799
the authority. And suddenly you know he uh you know,

3734
03:42:17,000 --> 03:42:20,520
he started you know waving uh waving waving the natal

3735
03:42:20,639 --> 03:42:23,719
band or as soon as as as soon as uh

3736
03:42:24,200 --> 03:42:27,680
the Soviets were uh we're in Berlin. You know, he

3737
03:42:28,079 --> 03:42:32,559
had genuine entirety. Okay, Uh, I'm not gonna like I

3738
03:42:33,879 --> 03:42:37,120
obviously mouth went slides with guys like but in his

3739
03:42:37,399 --> 03:42:43,520
in his I mean, but uh, that's that's uh that

3740
03:42:43,760 --> 03:42:46,360
that it's I I wanted to decate based this entire episode,

3741
03:42:46,719 --> 03:42:48,479
and now we're into the senden See because that's I

3742
03:42:48,600 --> 03:42:51,360
realized something of a dry topic, but it's essential to

3743
03:42:52,200 --> 03:42:55,079
to understand and it could have very much gone a

3744
03:42:55,159 --> 03:42:58,280
different way. And I think the point about reading war

3745
03:42:58,440 --> 03:43:02,840
kind of building NATO because like and again I really

3746
03:43:02,920 --> 03:43:05,600
NATO was constant in nineteen forty nine, but there wasn't

3747
03:43:05,639 --> 03:43:08,559
really much to it then, Okay, and there's still still

3748
03:43:08,600 --> 03:43:11,120
hasn't even been decided. If you know, Germany was going

3749
03:43:11,159 --> 03:43:13,959
to be allowed to permitted the you know, re arm

3750
03:43:14,040 --> 03:43:18,159
at all in any capacity, and then what kind of

3751
03:43:18,200 --> 03:43:23,399
became the prevailing uh sensibility. Uh. You know, people make

3752
03:43:23,440 --> 03:43:25,799
the point a lot that the you know, the the

3753
03:43:25,959 --> 03:43:32,840
uh the uh western of an army UH had uh

3754
03:43:33,399 --> 03:43:38,079
such boring uniforms. That was by design because the original

3755
03:43:38,399 --> 03:43:43,879
a concept thing floated was a European the community wherein

3756
03:43:44,120 --> 03:43:47,040
uh there'd be a comedy command structure. You know, no

3757
03:43:47,159 --> 03:43:51,079
one state you know would have would would be dominant

3758
03:43:51,159 --> 03:43:56,120
and you know in an executive officer roles or in

3759
03:43:56,159 --> 03:43:59,920
command authorities and UH the you know, the the UN

3760
03:44:00,040 --> 03:44:03,399
a forum for the post the multinational force. It was

3761
03:44:03,440 --> 03:44:05,920
supposed to be devoid of anything that could be affiliated

3762
03:44:05,959 --> 03:44:09,399
with you know, national chawmanism or or something that could

3763
03:44:09,440 --> 03:44:13,639
be like identified with any particular UH country or or

3764
03:44:13,680 --> 03:44:20,559
cultural UH tendency. So you're left with UH. So the

3765
03:44:20,920 --> 03:44:24,280
the like then is now it's like these guys look

3766
03:44:24,360 --> 03:44:26,879
like bus drivers or something. It was opposed to, like

3767
03:44:26,920 --> 03:44:34,799
the Easterman Army even though which are like dope, but

3768
03:44:34,920 --> 03:44:42,399
it's you know, it's uh it. I think the key take.

3769
03:44:42,479 --> 03:44:46,159
But also, like I said, was that the UH and

3770
03:44:46,239 --> 03:44:50,479
we'll get into UH later on in this series two

3771
03:44:50,680 --> 03:44:53,959
the like ultimately and and in the final phase of

3772
03:44:53,959 --> 03:44:57,879
the Cold War, the key UH, the key strategic battle

3773
03:44:58,280 --> 03:45:01,440
strategic battlespace was was the the Pacific, you know, and

3774
03:45:01,520 --> 03:45:05,639
that that's one of the things that underlay UH the

3775
03:45:05,719 --> 03:45:09,200
Department of the Navy under Jim Webb, you know, UH

3776
03:45:10,040 --> 03:45:13,719
and UH Reagan's idea for a ship navy, you know,

3777
03:45:13,799 --> 03:45:16,680
the idea was, you know, to deploy battle platforms, uh

3778
03:45:17,840 --> 03:45:20,440
like survival battle platforms, eff to wave what amount to

3779
03:45:20,479 --> 03:45:22,600
do a two front nuclear war? We can think of

3780
03:45:22,719 --> 03:45:28,040
nuclear war as having fronts at all. But that's uh,

3781
03:45:29,280 --> 03:45:35,280
that's yeah. I mean the fact that the people like uh,

3782
03:45:36,559 --> 03:45:40,639
people like Kennon uh who talk about, you know, the

3783
03:45:40,719 --> 03:45:43,760
inherent danger of of the Far East and and they

3784
03:45:43,840 --> 03:45:45,680
kind of and and you know, again the fleet of

3785
03:45:46,120 --> 03:45:48,680
of possible conflict adds, I mean they're proven right. I

3786
03:45:48,719 --> 03:45:51,319
mean during the Cold War, like Asia was pretty much

3787
03:45:51,319 --> 03:45:53,399
always at war, and I mean America fought two major

3788
03:45:53,479 --> 03:45:55,879
wars there and probably have it as on others that

3789
03:45:56,479 --> 03:46:00,360
you know, we're kind of something short of you know,

3790
03:46:00,719 --> 03:46:04,360
open conflict, but but but very much not conditions at peace.

3791
03:46:04,479 --> 03:46:07,840
And I mean the there was a I mean that

3792
03:46:07,959 --> 03:46:09,840
that wasn't happening in Europe. I mean, yeah, I realize

3793
03:46:09,840 --> 03:46:15,319
again as I stated that, uh, there's really only one

3794
03:46:15,360 --> 03:46:19,000
conflict diet and possible in Europe, and it was a

3795
03:46:19,079 --> 03:46:24,559
catastrophic one. But that had the Korean War not happened,

3796
03:46:24,680 --> 03:46:28,159
or had it resolved some other way, uh, the entire

3797
03:46:28,239 --> 03:46:32,600
course of subsequents would have been different. And it and

3798
03:46:32,799 --> 03:46:37,280
it had MacArthur got his way some kind of uh,

3799
03:46:37,840 --> 03:46:39,559
it's not going to open it at war with uh

3800
03:46:40,760 --> 03:46:43,479
with And the problem is, I mean, I stipulate that

3801
03:46:44,680 --> 03:46:47,600
what was referred like we thought the tautology of well,

3802
03:46:47,680 --> 03:46:50,000
you know, we we we've got to defend Korea because

3803
03:46:50,000 --> 03:46:51,479
our forces are there, and we're going to fight to

3804
03:46:51,520 --> 03:46:54,200
defend our forces. I mean, that's nonsense. But if the

3805
03:46:54,200 --> 03:46:57,440
alternative is, you know, we we've got to push for

3806
03:46:57,479 --> 03:46:59,959
a total victory in Korea. But doing that means fighting

3807
03:47:00,040 --> 03:47:03,200
in China, and fighting China means you know, landing the

3808
03:47:03,559 --> 03:47:07,120
China goshiks nationalists there, and and and and waging war

3809
03:47:07,200 --> 03:47:11,319
to the end until you know, until the comments regime falls. Well,

3810
03:47:11,319 --> 03:47:12,479
if you do that, then you're at war with the

3811
03:47:12,559 --> 03:47:15,319
Soviet Union, you know, and then when and I mean,

3812
03:47:15,520 --> 03:47:19,440
there's this this is not the Cold War. Was it

3813
03:47:19,479 --> 03:47:22,399
was important, not to not just important, but I mean

3814
03:47:22,520 --> 03:47:25,000
and it was a next it was a question, it

3815
03:47:25,079 --> 03:47:30,680
was a next essential reality that uh, the conflict paradigms

3816
03:47:30,680 --> 03:47:32,799
couldn't just be considered in binary terms. And I mean

3817
03:47:32,840 --> 03:47:36,319
that even even up through the eighties, there was something too.

3818
03:47:36,559 --> 03:47:39,280
Uh I'm not talking about like the fools like Uh,

3819
03:47:41,600 --> 03:47:43,719
the kind of you know, the kind of the kind

3820
03:47:43,719 --> 03:47:45,719
of peace movement just calling for like you know, Libel

3821
03:47:45,799 --> 03:47:49,040
to sun. I mean, but some of the people you

3822
03:47:49,120 --> 03:47:52,760
know who really kind of like opposed the the the

3823
03:47:53,239 --> 03:47:59,360
reig and UH and tm B notion. It's it was,

3824
03:47:59,600 --> 03:48:02,200
you know, they're the Cold War announcing you can just

3825
03:48:02,280 --> 03:48:04,000
turn off. And it wasn't just a question of you know,

3826
03:48:04,399 --> 03:48:07,959
persuing a quite like a conciliatory posture or an aggressive posture.

3827
03:48:08,520 --> 03:48:13,200
You know, especially by the era of deep parodies, the

3828
03:48:13,360 --> 03:48:19,000
every every embolicy decision had had very serious consequences that

3829
03:48:19,079 --> 03:48:21,840
themselves and other consequences, not all of which can be foreseen.

3830
03:48:22,319 --> 03:48:27,000
You know, it's an incredibly dangerous time. But excuse me,

3831
03:48:27,040 --> 03:48:28,840
I'm just I'm getting over a flare up. So I

3832
03:48:29,040 --> 03:48:32,399
realized that sound crummy. I'm sorry, but uh, I'm gonna

3833
03:48:32,440 --> 03:48:35,479
wrap Uh I think that I think I'm gonna wrap

3834
03:48:35,600 --> 03:48:38,159
up this, uh this episode. And like I said, I

3835
03:48:38,239 --> 03:48:40,879
realized this was a bit dry. It's kind of it

3836
03:48:40,959 --> 03:48:44,520
was it's essential to lay foundation for some of the

3837
03:48:45,360 --> 03:48:46,840
you know, for some of the some events we're gonna

3838
03:48:46,879 --> 03:48:50,559
talk about, and we're gonna get into the Cuban missile crisis,

3839
03:48:50,600 --> 03:48:52,479
in Vietnam and the next episode. And I think that

3840
03:48:52,840 --> 03:48:55,079
everybody finds that sort of stuff exciting. I mean, at

3841
03:48:55,200 --> 03:48:55,600
least I do.

3842
03:48:55,840 --> 03:49:00,639
Speaker 1: But uh, you had also you had also met talking

3843
03:49:00,680 --> 03:49:02,680
about McCarthy.

3844
03:49:04,799 --> 03:49:07,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's let's we'll take that up next episode too,

3845
03:49:07,520 --> 03:49:10,200
because yeah, obviously we're getting in a well, yeah, we're

3846
03:49:10,200 --> 03:49:13,440
gonna we'll get into eyes and uh into Kennedy era. Yeah,

3847
03:49:13,440 --> 03:49:14,200
we about McCarthy.

3848
03:49:14,399 --> 03:49:17,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, sounds great. Give your plugs and we'll

3849
03:49:17,840 --> 03:49:18,280
get out of here.

3850
03:49:19,600 --> 03:49:21,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, Thank you, Pete. You can find me

3851
03:49:21,920 --> 03:49:26,639
on substick uh real Thomas seven seven seven dot substick

3852
03:49:26,719 --> 03:49:30,399
dot com. That's where you can access to the podcast.

3853
03:49:31,440 --> 03:49:34,719
We drove a podcast every other week, you know, on

3854
03:49:34,760 --> 03:49:37,000
the same kind of stuff, you know, revisionism and and

3855
03:49:37,200 --> 03:49:40,000
and mostly political theory kind of topics. But you know,

3856
03:49:41,360 --> 03:49:43,920
I take up current events too, particularly Warren P's kind

3857
03:49:43,959 --> 03:49:47,440
of stuff when it's timely to do. So. You can

3858
03:49:47,479 --> 03:49:52,799
find me on Twitter at triskilli and jahad. Uh the

3859
03:49:52,920 --> 03:49:55,520
T is a number seven, but if you search for

3860
03:49:55,799 --> 03:49:59,680
Thomas seven seven seven, you should find me. That's mostly

3861
03:49:59,719 --> 03:50:03,120
where I active these days. I'm going to transition to

3862
03:50:03,239 --> 03:50:07,680
YouTube and you know, perhaps uh one or two other

3863
03:50:09,360 --> 03:50:12,799
video platforms on the first of January and make that

3864
03:50:12,959 --> 03:50:17,440
kind of the the primary place where I post up content.

3865
03:50:17,600 --> 03:50:20,319
But for now, that's that's where I can be found.

3866
03:50:22,639 --> 03:50:25,600
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the pe Cononez Show,

3867
03:50:26,280 --> 03:50:29,840
continuing talking about the Cold War. I know a lot

3868
03:50:29,879 --> 03:50:31,840
of people are going to be really interested in this one.

3869
03:50:32,440 --> 03:50:35,719
Thomas seven seven seven doing Thomas very well.

3870
03:50:35,840 --> 03:50:38,879
Speaker 2: Thanks, Yeah, I hope so. And I wanted to get

3871
03:50:38,959 --> 03:50:41,959
some housekeeping stuff because I haven't addressed people directly for

3872
03:50:42,040 --> 03:50:43,479
a minute. I mean, not like I've got this huge

3873
03:50:43,520 --> 03:50:47,600
audience or something, but I do have some pay subscribers

3874
03:50:47,680 --> 03:50:49,639
who are adult because they make a lot of what

3875
03:50:49,719 --> 03:50:53,639
I do possible. That not much has gotten done the

3876
03:50:53,680 --> 03:50:55,639
last couple of weeks. That was second stuff, and I

3877
03:50:55,680 --> 03:50:59,040
think some of you notice. But obviously I'm I'm getting

3878
03:50:59,079 --> 03:51:03,520
back to dropping fresh stuff now. I mean literally right

3879
03:51:03,600 --> 03:51:07,040
now what we're doing here. But I'm gonna drop a

3880
03:51:07,159 --> 03:51:09,319
fresh pod this week and kind of get back on

3881
03:51:09,399 --> 03:51:11,719
top of stuff. So thank you for being patient. I

3882
03:51:11,760 --> 03:51:14,120
don't like believe people. I mean, I realize everybody's cool

3883
03:51:14,159 --> 03:51:16,239
about such things, but I mean people do pay to

3884
03:51:16,319 --> 03:51:18,479
like read my stuff, so I don't really like to

3885
03:51:18,559 --> 03:51:22,840
leave them hanging like that. But yeah, today, I wanted

3886
03:51:22,840 --> 03:51:24,760
to get into the Q and missile crisis today because

3887
03:51:24,799 --> 03:51:29,559
it's something it's key, not just understanding how the later

3888
03:51:29,680 --> 03:51:33,799
Cold War developed. I think of the later Cold War

3889
03:51:33,840 --> 03:51:39,959
as Bresnev onward. Okay, and Bresnev became General Secretary in

3890
03:51:40,639 --> 03:51:45,840
nineteen sixty four, okay. But the early Cold War you

3891
03:51:45,879 --> 03:51:51,239
can think of as you know, Stalin's tenure through mister

3892
03:51:51,360 --> 03:51:59,600
Krushcheff's regime and not not not not as temporally can

3893
03:51:59,639 --> 03:52:01,719
we think of that as the early Cold War. But

3894
03:52:02,239 --> 03:52:04,840
that was before parody set in, you know, strategic parody.

3895
03:52:06,280 --> 03:52:09,280
And people bandy a lot about nuclear weapons today, which

3896
03:52:09,639 --> 03:52:11,959
is another example, in my opinion, of how kind of

3897
03:52:12,040 --> 03:52:17,559
disengage the public policy UH discourses from the realities of things.

3898
03:52:18,440 --> 03:52:21,959
Nulear weapons are a practical purpose is obsolete, not not

3899
03:52:22,079 --> 03:52:25,280
because the technology is obsolete per se, but because they

3900
03:52:25,319 --> 03:52:29,159
don't really have utility in UH in it tactical or

3901
03:52:29,159 --> 03:52:32,399
a strategic sense outstead of a very peculiar paradigm. And

3902
03:52:33,920 --> 03:52:37,040
unfortunately or fortunately, depending on where you fall on the issue,

3903
03:52:37,680 --> 03:52:42,799
that that that paradigm emerged splendidly in in the twentieth century,

3904
03:52:44,639 --> 03:52:49,559
and uh what uh, what's what What's become sort of

3905
03:52:49,799 --> 03:52:53,200
dogma in terms of in terms of strategic analysis and

3906
03:52:53,239 --> 03:52:57,360
game theory derived from the precedent of the Cuman missile price.

3907
03:52:57,399 --> 03:53:01,600
It's more than any other singular event. This was somewhat

3908
03:53:02,000 --> 03:53:08,920
uh compromised reliance on the model that I just you know,

3909
03:53:09,040 --> 03:53:13,559
from relying upon the data derived from the Cuban missile

3910
03:53:13,600 --> 03:53:16,920
crisis and the models created therein in terms of strategic

3911
03:53:17,000 --> 03:53:21,079
forecasting and and nuclear war planning and deterrens and things

3912
03:53:21,120 --> 03:53:25,120
like that. H some of that was itself writered ops

3913
03:53:25,120 --> 03:53:28,079
a lescdent by the emergence at deeper parodies after ninety

3914
03:53:28,079 --> 03:53:32,239
seventy three seventy four. But the basic terms remain, and

3915
03:53:32,360 --> 03:53:38,360
the basic the basic conceptual model indoors. And I'm gonna

3916
03:53:38,360 --> 03:53:41,719
get into why it is in a minute, but first

3917
03:53:41,760 --> 03:53:44,280
we gotta understand understand the Cuban crisis. You can understand

3918
03:53:44,280 --> 03:53:49,360
the character mister Krushcheff, cruise schief became for a poetical purposes,

3919
03:53:49,840 --> 03:53:51,959
you know, chief Executive of the Soviet Union in nineteen

3920
03:53:52,000 --> 03:53:53,600
fifty eight. You know, I mean, there was always kind

3921
03:53:53,600 --> 03:53:56,040
of a strange or not always, but in most cases

3922
03:53:56,520 --> 03:53:59,959
there's an unusual sort of consolidation of offices that kind

3923
03:53:59,959 --> 03:54:02,719
of asituted the executive seat of power in the Soviet Union.

3924
03:54:03,479 --> 03:54:08,159
Sometimes that was a trifecta of sourts. Sometimes it came

3925
03:54:08,280 --> 03:54:13,200
down to the rule of one man. But it's it's superseded. Uh,

3926
03:54:13,920 --> 03:54:18,479
it's superseded in any single office, okay. And after the

3927
03:54:18,559 --> 03:54:22,120
death of Stalin in ninety fifty three, there there was

3928
03:54:22,159 --> 03:54:24,079
a lot of there's a lot of palace intrigues, as

3929
03:54:24,079 --> 03:54:27,920
it were. Okay, as well, we could probably imagine between

3930
03:54:27,959 --> 03:54:31,920
Stalin loyalists, you know, between and reformers as well as uh,

3931
03:54:32,319 --> 03:54:37,040
you know, between men who represented uh uh sympathies uh

3932
03:54:37,280 --> 03:54:40,000
common to the same faction, but you know, who had

3933
03:54:40,000 --> 03:54:43,680
personal designs on power. And Cruise Chef was emerging a

3934
03:54:43,840 --> 03:54:47,479
triumphant for a variety of reasons, uh, not the least

3935
03:54:47,520 --> 03:54:52,399
of which ironically, in the view of the West at

3936
03:54:52,440 --> 03:54:55,120
the time, I believe, and even in hindsight and even

3937
03:54:55,120 --> 03:54:58,959
among some revisionists, Cruiseiff really was something of a reformer,

3938
03:54:59,200 --> 03:55:00,879
you know, he was he was kind of a proto

3939
03:55:00,959 --> 03:55:03,760
Gorbachev in a lot of ways. People who cited this

3940
03:55:04,040 --> 03:55:09,239
because his posture was so aggressive and foreign policy as

3941
03:55:09,319 --> 03:55:12,200
regards efforts directify the strategic and balance. And we'll get

3942
03:55:12,239 --> 03:55:15,000
into what I mean by that in a moment. But Krustie,

3943
03:55:15,000 --> 03:55:18,879
if he is, he wanted to normalize the Soviet Union. Okay.

3944
03:55:19,159 --> 03:55:21,239
Now this presented a problem for few of the reasons

3945
03:55:21,799 --> 03:55:23,360
and the one and it was imperative for him to

3946
03:55:23,399 --> 03:55:26,280
normalize and thought relations with the West because otherwise nothing

3947
03:55:26,360 --> 03:55:28,760
was gonna get done. Okay. There there was going to

3948
03:55:28,760 --> 03:55:31,200
be some kind of interdependence between the East Block and

3949
03:55:31,239 --> 03:55:38,360
the West, Okay, regardless of what anybody's powerpelitical ambisions were. Okay,

3950
03:55:38,399 --> 03:55:41,600
that's that was just the reality of of of of

3951
03:55:41,760 --> 03:55:45,559
nascent globalism. And make no mistake, globalism began uh in

3952
03:55:45,639 --> 03:55:49,239
the ashes of the Second War. Okay, The fact there

3953
03:55:49,280 --> 03:55:52,520
wasn't realized until you know, the night of November nineth,

3954
03:55:52,559 --> 03:55:57,239
nineteen eighty nine and subsequent is is incidental. This was uh,

3955
03:55:57,840 --> 03:55:59,959
This was this was the enterprise comment of both Moscow

3956
03:56:00,079 --> 03:56:02,719
in Washington and and what form that it would all

3957
03:56:02,799 --> 03:56:05,559
the system would ultimately take once consolidated, was really what

3958
03:56:05,760 --> 03:56:09,520
underlay the political side of the Cold War. So Cruise

3959
03:56:09,520 --> 03:56:13,040
I've had to present a face of u of normalcy

3960
03:56:13,159 --> 03:56:16,360
or the outside world in some basic sense. However, as

3961
03:56:16,440 --> 03:56:18,639
we talked about, particularly in the last episode, when we

3962
03:56:18,719 --> 03:56:22,559
got into you know, the uh the the battleground of

3963
03:56:22,600 --> 03:56:27,440
the Third world and the need quite literally to you know,

3964
03:56:27,559 --> 03:56:32,680
to to disway the non like world into one's own

3965
03:56:32,760 --> 03:56:35,200
camp as a path of victory in the Cold War,

3966
03:56:36,399 --> 03:56:41,040
the uh the the only way to really animate these

3967
03:56:41,079 --> 03:56:44,600
these post colonial states and in these in these developing countries, uh,

3968
03:56:45,319 --> 03:56:49,280
to to take up the cause of Marxist Leninism was

3969
03:56:49,319 --> 03:56:53,280
to sell them in a basically radical program. Okay, That's

3970
03:56:53,319 --> 03:56:56,239
what was resonant with the people on the ground. That's

3971
03:56:56,319 --> 03:56:59,760
what uh, the cadres had been marinated in that kind

3972
03:56:59,760 --> 03:57:03,639
of you know, during World War two and after. Frankly,

3973
03:57:03,840 --> 03:57:07,639
that's what orthodox Marcust Leninism is. You know, it calls

3974
03:57:07,760 --> 03:57:10,079
for the It calls for the development of a truly

3975
03:57:10,120 --> 03:57:14,120
revolutionary sensibility where uh, you know, power flows from the

3976
03:57:14,159 --> 03:57:18,440
barrel of a gun quite literally. Okay, in tactical terms,

3977
03:57:19,639 --> 03:57:21,959
somebody like Mao was was far more of an orthodox

3978
03:57:21,959 --> 03:57:25,520
and Marguist Leninist than you know, the the the Eastern

3979
03:57:25,559 --> 03:57:28,840
Bloc cadres that uh that succeeded style. And Okay, I'm

3980
03:57:29,120 --> 03:57:31,000
notwithstanding the fact that I don't believe Mao what any

3981
03:57:31,000 --> 03:57:33,920
great understanding of Marxism. I don't think he understood it

3982
03:57:33,920 --> 03:57:36,920
at all, particularly, but on the tactical sides of political

3983
03:57:36,959 --> 03:57:40,920
revolutionary as somebody like Mao or probably more probably more

3984
03:57:40,959 --> 03:57:46,159
precisely Ho Chi Men was exactly what Lenin envisioned when

3985
03:57:46,200 --> 03:57:48,520
he when he when he when he contemplated you know,

3986
03:57:48,600 --> 03:57:53,840
world world socialist revolution. Okay, So there was this weird

3987
03:57:53,920 --> 03:57:58,120
dichotomy wherein the Soviets had to present a reformist face

3988
03:57:59,399 --> 03:58:02,200
to their chief advers series in the West, but you know,

3989
03:58:02,280 --> 03:58:04,120
they had to maintain a kind of a year of

3990
03:58:04,319 --> 03:58:09,040
uh of orthodox radicalism, you know, to their constituents, if

3991
03:58:09,079 --> 03:58:10,840
we can think of them, that where their cadres, you know,

3992
03:58:10,920 --> 03:58:14,879
in the Third World. And this was a very delicate

3993
03:58:14,959 --> 03:58:19,079
menuet and uh it. Frankie led the foundation of the

3994
03:58:19,120 --> 03:58:23,000
sign of Soviet Split, which we'll get into in coming episodes,

3995
03:58:23,040 --> 03:58:24,719
but that's a bit outside the scope for now. But

3996
03:58:26,799 --> 03:58:29,719
when Cruisie did take the helm of the Soviet Union

3997
03:58:29,719 --> 03:58:33,079
and the Soviet Union had some pretty substantial momentum technologically,

3998
03:58:33,159 --> 03:58:36,440
they were arguably winning the space race. You know, Sputnik

3999
03:58:36,639 --> 03:58:39,559
was uh was the first uh what was the first

4000
03:58:39,639 --> 03:58:42,239
man made object in orbit? The first man made object

4001
03:58:42,280 --> 03:58:44,200
in space was a V two rocket, so you can

4002
03:58:44,280 --> 03:58:47,120
thank the German Reich for that. But you know, Sputnik

4003
03:58:47,239 --> 03:58:49,239
was a This was a big deal, Okay, Like a

4004
03:58:49,280 --> 03:58:52,920
lot of people, uh, the people in the in the

4005
03:58:53,000 --> 03:58:55,159
nascent Pentagon at the time said well, this is just

4006
03:58:55,239 --> 03:58:58,319
a stunt. You know, it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't

4007
03:58:58,360 --> 03:59:00,760
prove anything. It didn't matter if anything or not. And

4008
03:59:00,799 --> 03:59:03,559
it didn't matter if you know, there's a direct military application,

4009
03:59:04,040 --> 03:59:06,799
you know, the parking a satellite in orbital space for

4010
03:59:06,840 --> 03:59:08,760
a few minutes. The point is that they were the

4011
03:59:08,840 --> 03:59:11,600
first to accomplish it, and this developed a kind of

4012
03:59:11,639 --> 03:59:18,360
momentum it zone in terms of perception. Okay, but the

4013
03:59:18,479 --> 03:59:21,680
Soviets had a real political problem that became a national

4014
03:59:21,799 --> 03:59:25,840
security problem that was ongoing even despite those victories in

4015
03:59:25,879 --> 03:59:30,879
this era. We talked about the Berlin Airlift last episode,

4016
03:59:31,079 --> 03:59:35,639
and you know how that really kind of was the

4017
03:59:35,719 --> 03:59:40,719
key initiatory or instigating event of the Cold War. I

4018
03:59:40,799 --> 03:59:46,200
think if we can identify any singular occurrence between ninety fifty,

4019
03:59:47,200 --> 03:59:51,360
well over one point five million people emigrated from the

4020
03:59:51,440 --> 03:59:54,200
Soviet occupied zone to West Germany, and most of these

4021
03:59:54,239 --> 03:59:56,639
people were young. They were prime working age, a dispportiond

4022
03:59:56,639 --> 04:00:01,840
an amount of engineers, men with military experience, people educated

4023
04:00:01,879 --> 04:00:05,440
in the sciences, uh, women of child during age. Yeah,

4024
04:00:05,440 --> 04:00:09,639
I mean this, this is a real problem. Okay. A

4025
04:00:09,760 --> 04:00:15,040
subtext uh to uh to to the issue of uh

4026
04:00:15,360 --> 04:00:17,680
emmigration across the inner German border a level was never

4027
04:00:17,719 --> 04:00:21,079
explicitly stated by their camp was uh one of the

4028
04:00:21,120 --> 04:00:24,559
reason Germany is coveted. It's it's it's not. It's not

4029
04:00:24,719 --> 04:00:27,879
just because of of of geostrategic accident and kind of

4030
04:00:27,879 --> 04:00:30,200
where you know Germany is located on the map. Okay.

4031
04:00:30,319 --> 04:00:31,520
It had to do with it had to do with

4032
04:00:31,559 --> 04:00:35,040
the human material. Okay, you can control the German population

4033
04:00:36,879 --> 04:00:41,479
that literally, the human resources they're in that that you

4034
04:00:41,959 --> 04:00:46,040
wield tremendous power in terms of your ability to mobilize

4035
04:00:46,079 --> 04:00:48,920
them for warfare. I mean, that's just a fact, Okay.

4036
04:00:48,959 --> 04:00:50,879
I mean if people want to say that it's not true,

4037
04:00:51,000 --> 04:00:53,200
or that the eugenics thinking, Okay, fine, you can label

4038
04:00:53,239 --> 04:00:55,479
whatever you want. It's a fact. And everybody accepted it. Okay,

4039
04:00:55,520 --> 04:00:59,200
there's a there's a reason why. There's a reason why

4040
04:00:59,399 --> 04:01:00,799
the d d R was was the jewel and the

4041
04:01:00,879 --> 04:01:03,399
crown of Warsaw pat Okay, And it wasn't. It wasn't

4042
04:01:03,440 --> 04:01:06,440
just because it was the westernmost point at which at

4043
04:01:06,440 --> 04:01:13,799
which the Soviets UH sphere of influence stretched. As this

4044
04:01:14,079 --> 04:01:21,120
went on, another another layer was insinuated into the into

4045
04:01:21,159 --> 04:01:25,520
the issue of into the issue of divided Germany as

4046
04:01:25,600 --> 04:01:29,559
the UH, as the four power UH regime fell apart,

4047
04:01:31,399 --> 04:01:34,520
and it became clear that, you know, demilitarization was not

4048
04:01:35,079 --> 04:01:39,479
in the cards. The Soviets came to realize that West

4049
04:01:39,520 --> 04:01:42,879
Germany as a basing hub for for American nuclear weapons

4050
04:01:43,040 --> 04:01:45,559
was was going to become the reality. And this had

4051
04:01:45,600 --> 04:01:50,959
already been accomplished in terms of low yeld tactical nuclear forces.

4052
04:01:54,680 --> 04:02:01,559
It had escalated beyond that, in part because UH the

4053
04:02:01,639 --> 04:02:04,399
strategic balance was still unstable. And we'll get into what

4054
04:02:04,440 --> 04:02:08,840
I mean by that in a moment, But the Soviets

4055
04:02:08,840 --> 04:02:13,639
were very very aware of this. So the problem was twofold,

4056
04:02:14,200 --> 04:02:15,559
you know. The problem was the fact that they were

4057
04:02:15,600 --> 04:02:19,680
literally hemorrhaging people by the sieve that was Berlin, because

4058
04:02:19,719 --> 04:02:23,479
the inner German border had been shot since ninety fifty three,

4059
04:02:23,959 --> 04:02:28,840
but Berlin, being one hundred and ten miles within East Germany,

4060
04:02:29,840 --> 04:02:35,120
represented a kind of It represented a kind of metaphorical valve,

4061
04:02:35,159 --> 04:02:38,879
as it were, wherein people could pass rather freely between

4062
04:02:38,959 --> 04:02:41,639
you know, the Eastern occupations owned in the West and

4063
04:02:41,680 --> 04:02:48,479
once in West Berlin. The West Berlin authorities under a

4064
04:02:49,879 --> 04:02:53,120
under the dominion of you know, of the United States,

4065
04:02:53,159 --> 04:02:56,040
the UK and France, they considered all German citizens to

4066
04:02:56,120 --> 04:02:58,600
just be citizens in Germany. They did not recognize East

4067
04:02:58,639 --> 04:03:01,559
Germany as a sovereign state. So East German people, these

4068
04:03:01,600 --> 04:03:03,959
German passports made it to West Berlin like they were

4069
04:03:04,000 --> 04:03:06,600
good to go. They they you know, they be granted

4070
04:03:06,600 --> 04:03:09,799
full rights of UH, the many bales and the Bonus Republic.

4071
04:03:11,520 --> 04:03:15,920
So there's the practical problem of of UH, of the

4072
04:03:16,000 --> 04:03:18,159
Soviets losing the human material they needed to wage the

4073
04:03:18,239 --> 04:03:21,680
cold work quite literally, there's the political problem of UH

4074
04:03:22,120 --> 04:03:27,639
of credibility, you know, UH in that you know, if

4075
04:03:28,399 --> 04:03:32,239
if you claim to represent the real Germany and the

4076
04:03:32,440 --> 04:03:35,159
U you know, the will of the working class and

4077
04:03:35,239 --> 04:03:38,040
the government situated in East Berlin, yet you're hemorrhaging people.

4078
04:03:39,559 --> 04:03:43,760
It UH it's a terrible look, frankly, and uh, the

4079
04:03:44,000 --> 04:03:47,920
entire uh, the the the entire communist enterprise again relied

4080
04:03:48,000 --> 04:03:51,000
upon the perception, especially in the Third World, you know,

4081
04:03:51,120 --> 04:03:54,600
to represent a competitive system that was an equitable alternative

4082
04:03:54,680 --> 04:03:59,879
to that in the West. And finally, as I just indicated, uh,

4083
04:04:03,719 --> 04:04:13,040
the permanent division and mobilization of Germany essentially allowed America

4084
04:04:13,760 --> 04:04:20,639
and the NASA and NATAL alliance to potentially maintain a permanent,

4085
04:04:21,000 --> 04:04:23,479
splendid first strike capability, you know, if they chose to

4086
04:04:23,520 --> 04:04:26,840
deploy strategic nuclear forces. At that time, there were no

4087
04:04:27,000 --> 04:04:31,600
hypersonic cruise platforms available, so we'll get into that later obviously,

4088
04:04:32,520 --> 04:04:38,840
but the solution of this was somewhat fascinating. There's a

4089
04:04:38,959 --> 04:04:42,959
terrible human cost, so I'm not being flippant. But on

4090
04:04:44,399 --> 04:04:51,399
August thirteenth, nineteen sixty one, at midnight, the East German

4091
04:04:51,680 --> 04:04:56,479
Border Police, the National Volks Army and elements of the

4092
04:04:56,559 --> 04:04:58,680
group of Soviet forced in Germany, it began to construction

4093
04:04:58,760 --> 04:05:01,440
on the Berlin Wall, Okay, and it wasn't clear at

4094
04:05:01,479 --> 04:05:05,440
first what they were doing. Ubrich had actually suggested this

4095
04:05:06,360 --> 04:05:10,719
based on analysis from National Voks Army engineers. The Soviets

4096
04:05:10,760 --> 04:05:13,879
did not think it was possible, and the Pentagon, interestingly

4097
04:05:13,959 --> 04:05:16,520
near me cort of engineer said it's probably impossible. But

4098
04:05:18,280 --> 04:05:20,719
to emphasize the point I just made about, you know,

4099
04:05:20,920 --> 04:05:24,360
the mentioned material if you will, of Germany, well, the

4100
04:05:24,440 --> 04:05:29,360
Germans found a way to quite literally wall in West Berlin,

4101
04:05:31,680 --> 04:05:34,719
which again I'm not making light of a terrible situation,

4102
04:05:34,959 --> 04:05:41,280
but the Berlin Wall remains an architectural marvel that really

4103
04:05:41,360 --> 04:05:43,920
I don't think, I don't I don't think anybody could

4104
04:05:43,920 --> 04:05:49,040
pull off other than the Germans. And I think we

4105
04:05:49,120 --> 04:05:55,440
can stand by this statement in confidence so that the

4106
04:05:55,479 --> 04:05:59,280
effect of lessening tensions, you know, there wouldn't be another

4107
04:05:59,360 --> 04:06:03,639
Berlin air lift type situation, you know, absent a state

4108
04:06:03,680 --> 04:06:08,120
of general war, it was unthinkable that Berlin v blockaded again. However,

4109
04:06:09,200 --> 04:06:15,399
that didn't obviously accomplished anything in terms of the remedying,

4110
04:06:16,639 --> 04:06:20,600
you know, the problem of of a basing availability in

4111
04:06:20,680 --> 04:06:23,600
West Berlin, and I mean the obviously it was key

4112
04:06:23,680 --> 04:06:25,440
keep in mind is that okay, I mean, the Soviets

4113
04:06:25,479 --> 04:06:28,280
could base their own nuclear forces in the d d R,

4114
04:06:28,879 --> 04:06:33,239
and they could threaten Europe with uh, you know, with

4115
04:06:33,399 --> 04:06:36,159
with with the threat of a cat is driving nuclear assault,

4116
04:06:36,760 --> 04:06:39,360
but that that that wouldn't matter. Like when it came down,

4117
04:06:39,440 --> 04:06:41,040
it was the ability to deter a threat in the

4118
04:06:41,120 --> 04:06:45,000
United States, and obviously the Soviets had no capability to

4119
04:06:45,079 --> 04:06:52,159
do that, which is why UH Cuba became so coveted. Now,

4120
04:06:53,799 --> 04:06:56,639
before we get into the actual development of the crisis,

4121
04:06:57,639 --> 04:07:00,799
let's get into what prevailing conceptual models were for UH

4122
04:07:01,719 --> 04:07:06,559
for strategic planning and in the nuclear age. Okay, the

4123
04:07:06,639 --> 04:07:10,959
two primary models were presented by Hans Morgenthau, who I

4124
04:07:11,000 --> 04:07:13,399
think I referenced in the last episode. You know, morgan

4125
04:07:13,440 --> 04:07:19,680
Tho is a traditional realist. Meerscheimer's a neorealist. You know,

4126
04:07:19,719 --> 04:07:23,920
as I indicated, he he deals with and dealt primarily

4127
04:07:24,000 --> 04:07:30,440
in structures and institutional u features and how they affect

4128
04:07:30,479 --> 04:07:34,799
outcomes as regards us as you know, as regards to

4129
04:07:34,920 --> 04:07:37,360
terrence and war fighting. You know, Morgan thal would he

4130
04:07:37,440 --> 04:07:41,040
basically presented an anthropological model buttressed by what he called

4131
04:07:41,159 --> 04:07:44,319
rational discipline and action. Like what did he mean by that?

4132
04:07:45,120 --> 04:07:47,360
He was saying. What he was basically saying is that,

4133
04:07:48,000 --> 04:07:51,840
you know, the bounded rationality to states at war or

4134
04:07:51,840 --> 04:07:54,040
political actors generally not they don't even have to be

4135
04:07:54,120 --> 04:07:58,360
states so the States obviously are the primary, the primary

4136
04:07:58,440 --> 04:08:01,239
actors in power political affairs. You know, at least from

4137
04:08:01,319 --> 04:08:04,000
sixteen forty eight to the present. That's changing, but it's

4138
04:08:04,000 --> 04:08:10,920
still endures, you know, regardless of how prerational or even

4139
04:08:11,000 --> 04:08:14,799
arguably irrational the origins of war are. Like what it's underway.

4140
04:08:15,079 --> 04:08:18,600
You know, war is guided by this bounded rationality. Okay,

4141
04:08:18,639 --> 04:08:24,840
the waging of it. It begs the question as to

4142
04:08:24,959 --> 04:08:29,440
how you know, as to how as the on this

4143
04:08:29,520 --> 04:08:33,239
has been demonstrated in the historical record, like an Accolade

4144
04:08:33,280 --> 04:08:36,159
Morgan that would say, well, over time, you know, there's there,

4145
04:08:36,159 --> 04:08:39,639
there's a remarkable continuity. Okay, if you're talking about great

4146
04:08:39,719 --> 04:08:41,959
powers at war, where they're talking about the British, the

4147
04:08:42,079 --> 04:08:45,280
United States, you know, Russian foreign policy, you know, even

4148
04:08:45,319 --> 04:08:48,159
the lesser regional powers like the Austranguria Empire, you know,

4149
04:08:48,239 --> 04:08:50,600
in the most failian era, at least over time, this

4150
04:08:50,719 --> 04:08:57,399
bears out. Okay, the the competing model, I mean maybe

4151
04:08:57,440 --> 04:09:02,600
not so much competing and absolute terms, but the uh,

4152
04:09:03,959 --> 04:09:06,559
the kind of game theory model you know that relies

4153
04:09:06,879 --> 04:09:09,600
more on codable variables if you were if you will,

4154
04:09:11,440 --> 04:09:14,440
you know, uh, based upon you know the availability of

4155
04:09:14,520 --> 04:09:18,520
war fighting technologies was kind of was presented by Thomas Shelling.

4156
04:09:18,719 --> 04:09:21,440
Shelling was primarily an economist, but he was a game theorist,

4157
04:09:21,479 --> 04:09:24,399
and he was a public intellectual of the sort that really,

4158
04:09:24,559 --> 04:09:28,879
uh really thrived during the Cold War, and I it

4159
04:09:28,920 --> 04:09:31,280
doesn't really exist anymore, at least not in public life.

4160
04:09:33,799 --> 04:09:37,319
Shilling's old point was that deterrence is accomplished, you know, not,

4161
04:09:38,680 --> 04:09:40,600
you know not not not by the propensities of the

4162
04:09:40,719 --> 04:09:43,799
individual men who are they who are the human decision makers,

4163
04:09:44,159 --> 04:09:46,360
you know, nor a by that relative balance of forces

4164
04:09:46,479 --> 04:09:49,200
on each side. But the stability they're in, and the

4165
04:09:49,239 --> 04:09:53,239
stability they're in comes down to available technologies, and uh,

4166
04:09:53,479 --> 04:09:56,319
in the nuclear age that it comes down to the

4167
04:09:56,399 --> 04:09:59,559
ability of uh each side to basically threaten the other,

4168
04:10:02,680 --> 04:10:06,239
whether a telecatory strike when attacked that you know, makes

4169
04:10:07,159 --> 04:10:10,600
a bolt from the blue assault cost prohibitive, you know,

4170
04:10:12,639 --> 04:10:16,879
unacceptable damage will be endured. In other words, Okay, showing

4171
04:10:17,000 --> 04:10:19,879
seminal texts was the strategy of conflict, Okay, throughout the

4172
04:10:19,920 --> 04:10:24,200
Cold War, this kind of a in foreign policy and

4173
04:10:24,440 --> 04:10:29,520
so either more either directly or obliquely into literally until

4174
04:10:29,559 --> 04:10:32,200
nineteen until the night of November ninet nineteen eighty nine,

4175
04:10:32,719 --> 04:10:35,440
showing is a controversial figure about his influence can't be

4176
04:10:37,040 --> 04:10:42,399
cannot be denied now based on both base based on

4177
04:10:42,520 --> 04:10:45,639
either of those models or both of them considered together.

4178
04:10:46,959 --> 04:10:50,639
Nineteen sixty two, really ninety sixties ninety sixty three was

4179
04:10:50,719 --> 04:10:56,120
so dangerous because they're an equilibrium and not yet set in.

4180
04:10:57,520 --> 04:11:00,479
There's a lack of there's a lack of informational awareness

4181
04:11:00,639 --> 04:11:03,719
on both sides as the absolute state of forces and

4182
04:11:03,840 --> 04:11:12,079
being and capabilities. Even uh, even if uh, even even

4183
04:11:12,079 --> 04:11:17,239
if that awareness had been even if those blinders could

4184
04:11:17,280 --> 04:11:19,159
be as it were, it could be overcome. I mean,

4185
04:11:19,239 --> 04:11:22,479
even if there was a situation a total uh information awareness.

4186
04:11:25,479 --> 04:11:31,479
There's the availability of delivery mechanisms and uh, whether you

4187
04:11:31,559 --> 04:11:36,840
know they're their operational status would have caused a situation

4188
04:11:37,040 --> 04:11:40,319
where it could have served either side's interests to strike

4189
04:11:40,479 --> 04:11:45,879
first without waiting for you know, an intelligence reveal, you know,

4190
04:11:45,959 --> 04:11:48,399
as the absolute status of forces on the opposing side.

4191
04:11:50,920 --> 04:11:54,040
What one what one can think of two men blindfolded, uh,

4192
04:11:54,520 --> 04:11:56,479
and neither's aware of the armament of the other, and

4193
04:11:56,520 --> 04:11:59,600
whether they're trying to draw a bead, you know, the

4194
04:11:59,639 --> 04:12:03,280
threatened the other to deter future hostile acts, but neither's

4195
04:12:03,360 --> 04:12:06,920
cable of seeing you know, his opponent, you know, and

4196
04:12:07,040 --> 04:12:13,079
that's really what in part created, you know, the the

4197
04:12:13,559 --> 04:12:18,200
danger of the Cuba situation. Now, how it first came about,

4198
04:12:18,399 --> 04:12:20,559
like why Cuba again, and more to do with the

4199
04:12:20,639 --> 04:12:23,879
accident of geography. As early as you'rely nineteen sixty two,

4200
04:12:24,120 --> 04:12:30,200
Raouel Castro, who UH was Fiddil's brother and was uh

4201
04:12:31,159 --> 04:12:33,719
in in some ways the shadow foreign policy executive of

4202
04:12:33,799 --> 04:12:39,360
Cuba throughout the Cold War, so we're not even two.

4203
04:12:39,360 --> 04:12:42,120
He visited Moscow, and it's believed that this is when

4204
04:12:42,120 --> 04:12:45,000
the Soviet Union began the large scale shipments of the

4205
04:12:45,120 --> 04:12:48,000
tech of technical and military aid to Cuba, you know,

4206
04:12:48,079 --> 04:12:55,000
including UH the men who were qualified to uh, you know,

4207
04:12:55,120 --> 04:13:01,000
to operate you know, strategic nuclear platforms. UH. August nineteen

4208
04:13:01,000 --> 04:13:05,959
sixty two is probably when UH is probably when the

4209
04:13:06,040 --> 04:13:10,200
actual plant missile platforms arrived in in in Q. They

4210
04:13:10,239 --> 04:13:12,719
were not yet operational, but this is when, you know,

4211
04:13:12,799 --> 04:13:21,079
this is when that disassembled components first arrived on the island. September. Interestingly,

4212
04:13:23,319 --> 04:13:28,760
the UH, the Kennedy administration declared that if Q became

4213
04:13:28,799 --> 04:13:33,079
a base for Soviet nuclear weapons, UH it would it

4214
04:13:33,079 --> 04:13:35,639
would be viewed as an active war. So this is

4215
04:13:35,680 --> 04:13:40,280
on everybody's mind before the crisis, before, but before the

4216
04:13:40,360 --> 04:13:44,239
crisis ensued, and before the reveal of UH, of the

4217
04:13:44,319 --> 04:13:47,479
actual basing of weapons on the island. This gives you

4218
04:13:47,479 --> 04:13:53,200
an idea of UH the dangerous game cruise if was playing. Frankly, okay, now,

4219
04:13:53,639 --> 04:13:56,639
it was Sunday, October fourteenth, that's when the famous or

4220
04:13:56,680 --> 04:14:04,079
infamous YouTube were Constance Flight took the photographs that you

4221
04:14:04,120 --> 04:14:07,360
know ultimately led to their reveal. It was a subsequent

4222
04:14:07,600 --> 04:14:16,200
Monday the fifteenth that conclusively, at the National Photographic Interpretation Center,

4223
04:14:17,440 --> 04:14:22,040
the YouTube film was analyzed and medium range ballistic missiles

4224
04:14:22,079 --> 04:14:28,079
were identified in your san crystal Ball without a doubt. Now,

4225
04:14:28,280 --> 04:14:33,399
thus ensued the most dangerous phase of the crisis. Today,

4226
04:14:33,680 --> 04:14:39,760
October the sixteenth, Kennedy and his UH and his principal

4227
04:14:39,799 --> 04:14:44,639
foreign policy Cabinet were briefed on the situation and discussions

4228
04:14:44,719 --> 04:14:49,120
began immediately on how to respond. Now, obviously there's two

4229
04:14:49,200 --> 04:14:51,479
principal courses. I mean, there's three, you'll get into that

4230
04:14:51,520 --> 04:14:53,760
in a minute. But in terms of action, the two

4231
04:14:53,799 --> 04:14:59,360
principal courses were, you know, a massive, a massive air assault,

4232
04:15:01,200 --> 04:15:04,920
possibly including nuclear forces, and a subsequent invasion of the island,

4233
04:15:06,520 --> 04:15:09,360
you know, the the destruction of the weapons platforms, the

4234
04:15:09,440 --> 04:15:12,920
overthrow of you know, the defeat and utter annihilation of

4235
04:15:12,920 --> 04:15:15,959
the Cuban army, the overthrow of the Castro regime, and

4236
04:15:16,040 --> 04:15:20,200
the occupation of Havana, which undoubtedly would you know, lead

4237
04:15:20,239 --> 04:15:22,079
to the deaths of you know, one hundred of thousands

4238
04:15:22,120 --> 04:15:24,760
of people, including you know, any Soviet soldiers on the

4239
04:15:24,799 --> 04:15:31,600
ground or alternatively sort of a naval quarantine blockade, and

4240
04:15:31,639 --> 04:15:35,520
the threat of future military action. Now interestingly, macnimer was

4241
04:15:35,600 --> 04:15:38,639
the man who had the third position, if you want

4242
04:15:38,639 --> 04:15:42,319
to look at it that way. Mcnamerr Said, don't do anything.

4243
04:15:42,520 --> 04:15:47,079
This doesn't matter. Why doesn't it matter, because you know,

4244
04:15:48,120 --> 04:15:51,200
these intermediate range platforms are going to be obsolete in

4245
04:15:51,280 --> 04:15:56,319
six months, and which was true, you know, and America

4246
04:15:56,399 --> 04:15:59,559
was about to replace their own Jupiter missiles with the

4247
04:15:59,639 --> 04:16:02,920
polar System, you know, which was a submarine launch ballistic

4248
04:16:03,000 --> 04:16:09,440
missile platform. And even whether they're not the case, mac

4249
04:16:09,479 --> 04:16:14,559
namara said, uh, you know, despite despite propaganda of the

4250
04:16:14,639 --> 04:16:17,200
contrary and despite Cruise of it's own statements, you know,

4251
04:16:17,239 --> 04:16:20,079
the Soviet unions, the Soviet Union probably adds between thirty

4252
04:16:20,120 --> 04:16:23,440
and eighty viable warheads. Okay, we get into a we

4253
04:16:23,520 --> 04:16:25,319
get into a nuclear with the Soviet Union, we can

4254
04:16:25,360 --> 04:16:28,440
annihilate them. I mean, yeah, you know, twenty million Americans

4255
04:16:28,479 --> 04:16:30,879
may die, but that's a war the Soviets can't win.

4256
04:16:31,440 --> 04:16:36,159
Do nothing. But that wasn't really the issue. If it was,

4257
04:16:36,760 --> 04:16:41,040
the issue was twofold. I mean, this the Minroe doctrine, obviously,

4258
04:16:41,479 --> 04:16:48,600
and that always UH is controlling on questions of the

4259
04:16:48,680 --> 04:16:52,440
power political affairs. Just on principle, you can't allow UH

4260
04:16:53,319 --> 04:16:57,159
a rival actor to deploy within the Western hemisphere. I mean,

4261
04:16:57,200 --> 04:17:01,280
if you do so, it's you you you're essentially making

4262
04:17:01,399 --> 04:17:03,920
hash with your own line in the sand, as it were.

4263
04:17:04,959 --> 04:17:08,520
It doesn't matter that, you know the I mean, I

4264
04:17:08,559 --> 04:17:13,239
mean even if even if the weapons deployed are already obsolescent,

4265
04:17:13,520 --> 04:17:19,959
it you know, it doesn't matter. And secondly, UH, you know,

4266
04:17:20,040 --> 04:17:25,159
as a matter of a political will, if America won't UH, I,

4267
04:17:25,159 --> 04:17:28,399
America won't fight ninety miles off its own coast to

4268
04:17:28,479 --> 04:17:33,200
prevent the deployment of UH strategic nuclear forces. The credibility

4269
04:17:33,280 --> 04:17:35,520
gap develops as to whether America is gonna fight and

4270
04:17:35,600 --> 04:17:39,399
sacrifice one hundred thousand men to defend West Berlin. You know,

4271
04:17:39,559 --> 04:17:43,559
I mean, God love macnamara, but there's you know, there,

4272
04:17:43,639 --> 04:17:48,719
there's a calculus beyond the beyond the merely uh strategic

4273
04:17:49,159 --> 04:17:51,920
that matters in these things, and particularly in the Cold War,

4274
04:17:52,000 --> 04:17:54,719
which was as much political as it was, you know,

4275
04:17:54,799 --> 04:17:58,520
a military contest, and you know about you know, who

4276
04:17:58,520 --> 04:18:01,520
can accomplish what within you know, the proverbial balance of terror.

4277
04:18:06,079 --> 04:18:13,120
On October seventeenth, before uh A, uh, before a formal

4278
04:18:13,200 --> 04:18:19,680
policy decision was reached, Kennedy ordered a what we consider

4279
04:18:19,719 --> 04:18:22,239
to be rapid reaction forces to be moved to bases

4280
04:18:22,239 --> 04:18:30,959
in the southeastern US. Further, YouTube flights and the photos

4281
04:18:31,000 --> 04:18:36,319
derived therein indicate additional sites and in total of sixteen

4282
04:18:36,360 --> 04:18:40,239
to thirty two missiles. So, in other words, even taking

4283
04:18:40,280 --> 04:18:44,239
with McNamara said a face value, which I believe, which

4284
04:18:44,319 --> 04:18:47,520
Kennedy did, and which I believe we can and you know,

4285
04:18:48,920 --> 04:18:56,719
and upon reflection, obsolescent or not, if those missiles are operational,

4286
04:18:58,200 --> 04:19:02,399
that's the potential for for an utterly devastating counter value

4287
04:19:02,440 --> 04:19:04,600
strike was definitely there, you know, I mean, this was

4288
04:19:04,639 --> 04:19:09,479
not an illusory threat, however anyone feels about it, and

4289
04:19:09,559 --> 04:19:15,440
the character of cashtro is UH is relevant too. You know,

4290
04:19:15,559 --> 04:19:17,479
Cashro whatever gonna be said about him was it was

4291
04:19:17,879 --> 04:19:22,040
was a true revolutionary in the purest sense. And he'd

4292
04:19:22,079 --> 04:19:27,639
repeatedly stated that, and this is revealed later and UH

4293
04:19:28,040 --> 04:19:33,000
communications between himself and UH and the Soviet Foreign Ministry

4294
04:19:33,120 --> 04:19:37,840
and proused of office itself that UH, in the United

4295
04:19:37,879 --> 04:19:40,959
States assaulted Cuba, the Soviet Union should go all in

4296
04:19:41,319 --> 04:19:44,120
and you know, just treated as an act of war

4297
04:19:45,600 --> 04:19:48,360
against the Communist block and and and and and the

4298
04:19:48,399 --> 04:19:52,719
launch of our missiles with an operational decades later, UH,

4299
04:19:54,479 --> 04:20:02,000
at the height of the conflict in Nicaragua, Casher was

4300
04:20:02,079 --> 04:20:04,639
convinced that the United States was going to directly intervene,

4301
04:20:07,000 --> 04:20:10,280
which might trigger a theater white conflagration, and he reiterated

4302
04:20:10,360 --> 04:20:13,479
that the Soviet Union, in the war's uppack, you know,

4303
04:20:13,520 --> 04:20:17,680
should consider UH, you know, a waging prempted nuclear war

4304
04:20:17,760 --> 04:20:20,520
against against NATO. I mean, he really believed this, you know,

4305
04:20:20,600 --> 04:20:26,280
this wasn't you know, it's easy dismiss that it's so

4306
04:20:26,360 --> 04:20:28,520
much bluster. In the case of many men like Cash,

4307
04:20:28,559 --> 04:20:30,360
it absolutely meant that, you know, I mean, I I

4308
04:20:30,440 --> 04:20:34,799
have no doubt about that. So consider that there's a

4309
04:20:34,879 --> 04:20:38,319
question as to whether or not, you know, what what

4310
04:20:38,440 --> 04:20:40,200
the Soviet response would have been if there was a

4311
04:20:40,319 --> 04:20:44,639
massive invasion in Cuba. I mean, there's there's it's more

4312
04:20:44,639 --> 04:20:46,520
than a remal possibility that you know, there would have

4313
04:20:46,559 --> 04:20:49,719
there they would have responded by launching whatever munitions that

4314
04:20:49,799 --> 04:20:54,440
were currently operational. Okay. And again even if that, you know,

4315
04:20:54,520 --> 04:20:56,680
even if that, even if that was a war, the

4316
04:20:56,719 --> 04:20:58,680
Soviet Union could not win that that that would have

4317
04:20:58,799 --> 04:21:00,600
that would that would have meant I need to thirty

4318
04:21:00,600 --> 04:21:11,040
million dead Americans, you know. Within hours, uh Thursday, October eighteenth,

4319
04:21:11,159 --> 04:21:17,280
Kennedy was visited by the Soviet Foreign Minister Gramico, who

4320
04:21:17,920 --> 04:21:22,319
asserted that the soviety to Cuba was purely defensive. Kennedy

4321
04:21:22,399 --> 04:21:26,200
had not yet revealed that he knew of the existence

4322
04:21:26,200 --> 04:21:32,479
of the missiles. He reiterated his public warning of the

4323
04:21:32,559 --> 04:21:36,760
previous September you know that deployment to Cuba strategic nuclear

4324
04:21:36,920 --> 04:21:41,520
forces would constitute an active war. Basically was signaling and

4325
04:21:41,559 --> 04:21:47,719
to give Gramco an out, I believe, okay it And

4326
04:21:49,879 --> 04:21:53,639
this also raised the question as to why why why

4327
04:21:53,680 --> 04:21:55,680
why didn't why didn't cruise to try to de escalate

4328
04:21:55,760 --> 04:21:57,760
when it should have been clear that Kennedy was signaling

4329
04:21:59,360 --> 04:22:01,719
through a kind of you know, would pass for secret

4330
04:22:01,760 --> 04:22:05,680
diplomacy in the post and number of era. Why why

4331
04:22:05,719 --> 04:22:08,239
didn't why what why didn't Why didn't Cruise your trying

4332
04:22:08,239 --> 04:22:11,920
to de escalate the situation. I've got my own ideas

4333
04:22:11,959 --> 04:22:20,680
on that, But what's an arguable is why, uh, why

4334
04:22:20,719 --> 04:22:23,920
Cruise it deployed these weapons in the first place, when

4335
04:22:24,239 --> 04:22:27,600
as we just acknowledged, you know, and as as mac

4336
04:22:27,680 --> 04:22:31,399
and at the time observed, you know, that this actually

4337
04:22:31,479 --> 04:22:36,040
didn't rectify the strategic balance imbalance on its own terms,

4338
04:22:36,360 --> 04:22:40,639
and it had the potential for catastrophic escalations. So why

4339
04:22:40,920 --> 04:22:44,360
why did he do that? I believe that this was

4340
04:22:44,399 --> 04:22:48,360
supposed to be as trump card as regards Berlin. I

4341
04:22:48,479 --> 04:22:52,719
believe that Kruse Scheff UH was going to demand on

4342
04:22:52,799 --> 04:22:56,600
the open floor of the United Nations that UH NATO

4343
04:22:56,680 --> 04:23:03,719
abandoned West Berlin and UH and UH and and UH.

4344
04:23:04,000 --> 04:23:06,559
And when Stevenson or whoever you know, haughtily would just say,

4345
04:23:06,600 --> 04:23:09,360
you know, it's laughable. Of course we're not going to

4346
04:23:09,440 --> 04:23:12,360
do that. At that moment, Cruise Shift would reveal, well,

4347
04:23:12,479 --> 04:23:15,280
you know, we've got operational weapons platforms in Cuba ninety

4348
04:23:15,319 --> 04:23:18,559
miles off your coast. You know, if you want them

4349
04:23:18,639 --> 04:23:21,520
to be removed, you know you'll you'll, you'll see Berlin

4350
04:23:22,079 --> 04:23:25,959
unconditionally our sphere of influence, which seems like the craziest

4351
04:23:26,000 --> 04:23:30,360
hell idea. But Cruise Shift was a gambler, you know,

4352
04:23:30,559 --> 04:23:33,959
for all of his for all of his tendencies UH

4353
04:23:34,559 --> 04:23:39,879
towards reform and a constill literatory posture and absolute terms

4354
04:23:41,840 --> 04:23:46,040
his uh, he viewed none of this as being truly

4355
04:23:46,159 --> 04:23:50,719
possible in power political terms, unless the Soviet Union could negotiate,

4356
04:23:50,959 --> 04:23:54,479
you know, from a position of uh. If not absolute,

4357
04:23:54,639 --> 04:24:01,600
you know, then a relative strength. That's what underlay all

4358
04:24:01,680 --> 04:24:06,479
of this. It was always a political uh ploy more

4359
04:24:06,559 --> 04:24:12,559
than a uh strategic uh move, if that makes any sense.

4360
04:24:13,399 --> 04:24:17,000
And that that's key, not just understanding the Soviet Union

4361
04:24:17,360 --> 04:24:19,639
in it's epoch, but I think the kind of Russian

4362
04:24:19,760 --> 04:24:23,079
national character. Like I don't speak Russian, I've never visited there.

4363
04:24:23,239 --> 04:24:27,440
I'm certainly not an expert on Russian people, their culture

4364
04:24:27,520 --> 04:24:32,840
or their affairs, but I do know something about power politics,

4365
04:24:32,959 --> 04:24:38,760
and uh, I think, uh I I I think that's

4366
04:24:39,520 --> 04:24:41,600
I think, I think I think this is key. Okay,

4367
04:24:42,520 --> 04:24:47,559
Putin himself is something of an unusual executive uh, even

4368
04:24:47,639 --> 04:24:51,760
for Russia, but generally in structural terms, what the Kremlin

4369
04:24:51,840 --> 04:24:55,319
does reflects this same kind of tendency in common. I

4370
04:24:55,879 --> 04:25:03,120
don't I think that's constant. It doesn't change. H. Yeah, up,

4371
04:25:03,520 --> 04:25:09,600
go ahead, we're gonna say something. Okay. October twentieth, UH

4372
04:25:10,760 --> 04:25:17,319
Kennedy UH finally decides on the quarantine plants are drawn up,

4373
04:25:17,799 --> 04:25:23,559
UH to blockade the island of Cuba, notified the American people,

4374
04:25:23,959 --> 04:25:28,040
and UH prepared for war if uh, you know, the

4375
04:25:28,120 --> 04:25:30,239
SOT Union opts to sue for war to break the

4376
04:25:30,600 --> 04:25:39,959
blockade the UH. During this time, Curtis la May maintained

4377
04:25:41,399 --> 04:25:46,159
evociferiously objected. And you know, I I've I made the

4378
04:25:46,200 --> 04:25:49,319
point again and again about you know it may being

4379
04:25:49,440 --> 04:25:53,000
really kind of a towering figure in uh, you know

4380
04:25:53,479 --> 04:25:58,120
in in uh, you know, really really throughout the Cold War,

4381
04:25:59,319 --> 04:26:02,239
but especially he just to force the man's personality and

4382
04:26:02,280 --> 04:26:05,680
I mean think about Kennedy. You basically it was waiting

4383
04:26:05,799 --> 04:26:07,399
up feel bad to kind of win the respect to

4384
04:26:07,440 --> 04:26:09,920
the military establishment. I mean, he was a veteran and

4385
04:26:10,000 --> 04:26:12,399
a war hero, but he was given something of a

4386
04:26:12,479 --> 04:26:14,840
punk rich kid on the beltweigh by many and back

4387
04:26:14,879 --> 04:26:16,239
in those days, I mean you had a lot more

4388
04:26:16,319 --> 04:26:21,520
serious people who you know, kind of carved out niches

4389
04:26:21,600 --> 04:26:26,159
for themselves, and the National security apparatus, you know, what

4390
04:26:26,239 --> 04:26:28,719
we do was the deep state. Today, you know, you

4391
04:26:28,840 --> 04:26:33,360
got Curtis LeMay, Uh, you know, demanding uh, you know,

4392
04:26:34,040 --> 04:26:36,959
demanding Kennedy give an assault order, you know, backed up

4393
04:26:37,920 --> 04:26:42,200
really by you know, the entire Pentagon apparatus. And in

4394
04:26:42,280 --> 04:26:44,559
those days, you know, Strategic Air Command was king. You know,

4395
04:26:44,639 --> 04:26:47,360
it very much eclipsed the Army in terms of its

4396
04:26:47,600 --> 04:26:53,079
you know, uh cloud and policy and in policy authority,

4397
04:26:53,200 --> 04:26:54,840
you know, things like this. You know, I mean whatever,

4398
04:26:55,079 --> 04:26:57,159
I'm not some great fan of Kennedy at all. I

4399
04:26:57,639 --> 04:27:03,399
think anybody kind of instinctively discern who's h at all

4400
04:27:03,440 --> 04:27:06,280
familiar with my content? But uh, you know the guy

4401
04:27:06,360 --> 04:27:08,959
did Kennedy did have balls, and he needed that have backbone. Okay,

4402
04:27:09,040 --> 04:27:14,360
that can't be denied. What really what we're really solidified

4403
04:27:14,440 --> 04:27:22,920
Kennedy's position, though he consulted with uh, General Walter Sweeney

4404
04:27:26,239 --> 04:27:30,479
of a tact the Layer Command, who you know, uh

4405
04:27:31,840 --> 04:27:34,120
and and you know, going back to the Second World War,

4406
04:27:35,239 --> 04:27:38,239
you know, the fighter Mafia and Strategic Air Command liked

4407
04:27:38,879 --> 04:27:42,120
at this kind of ongoing rivalry. I there's there's military

4408
04:27:42,159 --> 04:27:44,399
guys who claim, well, yeah, there's you know, obviously, you know,

4409
04:27:45,120 --> 04:27:47,319
Kennedy tapped Sweeney because he wanted to foil to a A.

4410
04:27:47,840 --> 04:27:49,479
I don't think that's true. I think it was because

4411
04:27:49,520 --> 04:27:53,760
Sweeney was the man who such that experts existed in

4412
04:27:53,879 --> 04:27:58,239
those days on you know, how to knock out on

4413
04:27:58,360 --> 04:28:02,719
how to knock out strategic new clear platforms. You know,

4414
04:28:02,840 --> 04:28:08,559
Sweeney was it. And Sweeney said that, you know, even

4415
04:28:08,600 --> 04:28:11,760
if even with the best possible mission outcome, he cannot

4416
04:28:11,760 --> 04:28:14,879
guarantee one hundred percent destruction of of the missiles. Okay,

4417
04:28:15,799 --> 04:28:18,200
So again you know, this raise the question as to well,

4418
04:28:18,399 --> 04:28:21,600
I mean, the moment, there's a possibility that's not you know,

4419
04:28:21,639 --> 04:28:24,719
and it's it's greater than a slim possibility that the

4420
04:28:24,799 --> 04:28:27,280
moment Cuba came under result, if these platforms were in

4421
04:28:27,360 --> 04:28:30,200
fact operational, the launch order would be given, you know,

4422
04:28:30,399 --> 04:28:32,280
and who even knew the situation on the ground. I mean,

4423
04:28:32,319 --> 04:28:37,159
one would have hope that the Soviet Army technicians responsible

4424
04:28:37,200 --> 04:28:39,559
for the deployment what have ultimate authority, But I mean,

4425
04:28:39,600 --> 04:28:42,399
who's to say, you know, that can't be guaranteed and

4426
04:28:44,040 --> 04:28:52,840
in a a proverbial fog of warst situation. Expressly, delegate

4427
04:28:52,879 --> 04:28:58,559
authority doesn't always carry the day anyway. Monday, October twenty second,

4428
04:28:59,079 --> 04:29:04,200
Kennedy consulted the former presidents Hoover, Truman, and Eisenhower. Briefed

4429
04:29:04,200 --> 04:29:08,559
them on the situation, you know, asked for their support

4430
04:29:10,159 --> 04:29:12,639
if in fact the country uh you know was uh

4431
04:29:13,120 --> 04:29:16,520
what what was going to go to war. He received

4432
04:29:16,559 --> 04:29:20,920
his He received, you know, absolute blessing from all three men.

4433
04:29:21,120 --> 04:29:24,559
He formally established Kennedy did the Executive Committee of the

4434
04:29:24,639 --> 04:29:30,159
National Security Council Young insisting of mc namara, McGeorge, Bundy,

4435
04:29:30,280 --> 04:29:33,239
Curtis Lamey, Bobby Kennedy, who probably should not have been

4436
04:29:33,280 --> 04:29:35,319
in on the conversations. He was the President's brother and

4437
04:29:35,399 --> 04:29:37,680
there's a conflict of interest there, but you know he

4438
04:29:37,920 --> 04:29:42,600
was for better or worse. But that's uh, you know,

4439
04:29:42,680 --> 04:29:45,680
the the smoke filled room, uh with all the personalities

4440
04:29:45,760 --> 04:29:48,840
mentioned they I just mentioned present. You know, you see

4441
04:29:48,879 --> 04:29:51,559
this like dramatized on like History Channel stuff like that's

4442
04:29:51,879 --> 04:29:54,120
that's what they're depicting, the depicting the Executive Committee of

4443
04:29:54,120 --> 04:30:03,920
the National Security Council. Okay, ultimate A. Kennedy Kennedy wrote

4444
04:30:03,959 --> 04:30:12,239
directly to Khrushchev, which seems like a breach of protocol. Uh.

4445
04:30:12,719 --> 04:30:15,639
But the Cold War was strange in this regard. You know,

4446
04:30:15,719 --> 04:30:17,799
it's it's really in my opinion, said the President too.

4447
04:30:17,840 --> 04:30:19,959
You know, there's like people that people talk later in

4448
04:30:20,000 --> 04:30:22,120
the Cold War, by the by the Carter era, it

4449
04:30:22,239 --> 04:30:23,799
was the quote you know, like bat phone or the

4450
04:30:23,840 --> 04:30:26,120
red phone in the White House that was the hotline

4451
04:30:26,120 --> 04:30:29,319
of the Kremlin and vice versa. You know. Uh, this

4452
04:30:29,520 --> 04:30:33,319
idea of of of of heads of state directly kindacting

4453
04:30:33,360 --> 04:30:40,719
one another across uh, across across the enemy divide and

4454
04:30:40,799 --> 04:30:44,200
a potential crisis like it seems improper and the traditional

4455
04:30:44,319 --> 04:30:46,639
kind of laws and customs of war. But the Cold

4456
04:30:46,719 --> 04:30:50,079
War and in some ways was you know, a breach

4457
04:30:50,159 --> 04:30:54,959
of precedent. But in then regardless of of that, that

4458
04:30:55,079 --> 04:30:58,319
the merit of that, or the efficacy of that, or

4459
04:30:58,399 --> 04:31:02,399
the effectiveness of of a neutralizing potential crises. Uh, it

4460
04:31:02,520 --> 04:31:05,520
was probably the correct move for Kennedy to directly right

4461
04:31:06,719 --> 04:31:11,159
to cruise if by telegram, and he did him. Uh,

4462
04:31:12,079 --> 04:31:14,200
he did this prior to addressing the you know, the

4463
04:31:14,280 --> 04:31:17,959
American people by television, which was frankly like you know,

4464
04:31:18,639 --> 04:31:23,520
a sign of respect and say allowing cruise to safe face,

4465
04:31:25,559 --> 04:31:29,920
you know. And uh, the key uh, the key phraseology

4466
04:31:30,360 --> 04:31:33,760
of the telegram was quote, I have not assumed that

4467
04:31:33,840 --> 04:31:36,120
you or any other sane man would, in this nuclear

4468
04:31:36,159 --> 04:31:39,840
age liberally plunge the world into war. What he was

4469
04:31:39,920 --> 04:31:44,680
saying again was basically, you know, deployment to Cuba as

4470
04:31:44,680 --> 04:31:46,520
an act of war. And I'm giving you an out here,

4471
04:31:46,760 --> 04:31:49,319
okay when I'm well within my rights as President United

4472
04:31:49,360 --> 04:31:53,879
States simply to you know, assault the island, neutralize the threat,

4473
04:31:54,520 --> 04:32:00,159
and ask questions later. And uh, regardless of whether is

4474
04:32:00,200 --> 04:32:03,799
correct for Kennedy directly addressed crews with the man himself

4475
04:32:03,840 --> 04:32:06,760
and not go the diplomatic channels. Uh that that that

4476
04:32:06,879 --> 04:32:09,280
was the correct statement, I believe. So again, we gotta

4477
04:32:10,120 --> 04:32:12,159
we've got to give credit recruited to do it to

4478
04:32:12,239 --> 04:32:16,600
mister Kennedy, however else anybody feels about him. Seven pm

4479
04:32:16,680 --> 04:32:20,600
that evening October twenty second, That's when Kennedy speaks on

4480
04:32:20,719 --> 04:32:25,120
television revealing the existence of the Soviet missiles in Cuba,

4481
04:32:26,959 --> 04:32:32,159
announcing the establishment of the quarantine and declaring that you know,

4482
04:32:33,120 --> 04:32:39,479
and until the missiles are removed unconditionally and and and

4483
04:32:39,799 --> 04:32:43,239
completely you know, the the the the quarantine will not

4484
04:32:43,319 --> 04:32:45,920
be lifted, and failure to do so, you know, we'll

4485
04:32:45,959 --> 04:32:50,760
constantly with an active war Secretary of Stateton Dean and

4486
04:32:50,840 --> 04:32:57,600
rusk Uh formally notified the Soviet ambassador, which again, uh,

4487
04:32:58,760 --> 04:33:00,959
that's not just part of good office, is it indicated

4488
04:33:01,000 --> 04:33:04,759
the severity of Kennedy's statement, that's essentially what you do

4489
04:33:05,000 --> 04:33:12,319
when incident, you know, preceding a formal declaration of war. Okay,

4490
04:33:15,439 --> 04:33:17,360
So that's another thing to consider as well. Also, like

4491
04:33:17,479 --> 04:33:19,520
we talked a lot about, even though I don't really

4492
04:33:19,560 --> 04:33:24,159
accept the mere Sermi model about institutions determining you know,

4493
04:33:24,279 --> 04:33:28,959
the course of power, political events and crisis outcomes, there

4494
04:33:29,159 --> 04:33:32,759
is a momentum to the apparatus of government, particularly as

4495
04:33:32,799 --> 04:33:36,479
regards war and peace, and once kind of the mechanism

4496
04:33:36,720 --> 04:33:40,479
of war mobilization is in place, it's very, very difficult

4497
04:33:40,599 --> 04:33:44,720
to put the brakes on it. Okay. The fact that

4498
04:33:44,840 --> 04:33:48,520
Kennedy was entirely serious about going to war, waging nuclear

4499
04:33:48,599 --> 04:33:53,919
war over Cuba, that itself created conditions of escalation. I'm

4500
04:33:53,919 --> 04:33:55,639
not saying that's the wrong thing to do at all.

4501
04:33:55,959 --> 04:33:57,759
Quite the contrary, is the right thing to do. But

4502
04:33:58,119 --> 04:34:01,520
this added to the danger. At every step decisions that

4503
04:34:01,599 --> 04:34:06,959
are made that lead to UH real world outcomes in

4504
04:34:07,080 --> 04:34:11,599
the national security apparatus in a state of readiness and deployment,

4505
04:34:13,240 --> 04:34:17,959
it creates an elevated UH. It creates an elevated danger. Okay,

4506
04:34:19,720 --> 04:34:22,919
there's there's a sociological question there, there's a comics question

4507
04:34:23,000 --> 04:34:26,400
of you know, managed relationship to technology. I A lot

4508
04:34:26,400 --> 04:34:30,799
of that stuff is like far beyond my abilities, okay

4509
04:34:31,000 --> 04:34:38,959
to analyze. But what I just stated is indisputably true. Susay,

4510
04:34:38,959 --> 04:34:46,520
October twenty third. The following day, Assistant Secretary of State

4511
04:34:47,119 --> 04:34:52,040
Martin he Uh start a resolution from the Organization of

4512
04:34:52,080 --> 04:34:57,200
American States and the oas UH. I mean, these days

4513
04:34:57,240 --> 04:34:58,599
we think of it as you know, primarily like a

4514
04:34:58,680 --> 04:35:01,279
trade block and things like that. During the Cold War,

4515
04:35:01,520 --> 04:35:06,400
obviously it had it had it had profound UH geostrategic significance,

4516
04:35:06,919 --> 04:35:09,200
you know, because any if you're gonna wage war in

4517
04:35:09,319 --> 04:35:13,240
Latin America, which was a very real possibility throughout the

4518
04:35:13,279 --> 04:35:19,319
duration of the Cold War, a quorum of support from

4519
04:35:19,400 --> 04:35:23,279
friendly regimes they were in was absolutely essential for obvious reasons.

4520
04:35:28,000 --> 04:35:35,119
The the Soviets proceeded UH two UH to deploy submarines

4521
04:35:35,439 --> 04:35:38,479
UH to the Caribbean Sea, which were facing off immediately

4522
04:35:38,520 --> 04:35:50,000
opposite the the the US Navy blockade vessels, which again

4523
04:35:50,119 --> 04:36:01,639
to the UH and indicated UH a Soviet willingness to

4524
04:36:01,720 --> 04:36:07,200
fight and to keep uh, you know, to fight at

4525
04:36:07,279 --> 04:36:10,799
least defensively if Cuba was assaulted, you know, I mean, Uh,

4526
04:36:11,720 --> 04:36:15,119
it became clear immediately that the Soviets were intending to

4527
04:36:15,200 --> 04:36:17,520
fight for Cuba, like to what degree they're going to

4528
04:36:17,599 --> 04:36:21,759
do that, whether the missiles were operational or not. You know,

4529
04:36:21,840 --> 04:36:24,759
the the Soviet Navy was going to fight, and that

4530
04:36:24,959 --> 04:36:30,479
added another uh, that ended another wrinkle, as it were,

4531
04:36:30,639 --> 04:36:35,840
because even if, even if, even if the Bliss, even

4532
04:36:35,840 --> 04:36:41,439
if the nuclear capable platforms were not operational, a conventional

4533
04:36:41,560 --> 04:36:45,599
war in Cuba with the Soviet Union, obviously there was

4534
04:36:45,599 --> 04:36:48,680
gonna be some sort of response in Berlin, Okay, I mean,

4535
04:36:48,720 --> 04:36:53,599
and then it's you know, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're

4536
04:36:53,599 --> 04:36:56,200
dealing with the potential conflict diad that were result in

4537
04:36:56,240 --> 04:36:59,759
the Third World War at some point, you know, down

4538
04:37:01,520 --> 04:37:11,840
down down range of of of hostilities. Wednesday, October twenty

4539
04:37:11,919 --> 04:37:20,919
fourth Cruiser responded to the Kennedy UH, to the Kennedy

4540
04:37:21,000 --> 04:37:25,680
telegram stating that, uh, the Soviet Union does not respond

4541
04:37:25,720 --> 04:37:42,000
to ultimatums under threat, you know, uh, stating quote, if

4542
04:37:42,040 --> 04:37:44,119
we react we as these demands, it would mean guiding

4543
04:37:44,159 --> 04:37:46,560
oneself and one's relationship with other countries, not by reason.

4544
04:37:46,759 --> 04:37:51,119
By submitting to arbitrariness, you are no longer appealing to reason,

4545
04:37:51,200 --> 04:38:02,240
but wish to intimidate US. Thursday October twenty fifth was

4546
04:38:02,279 --> 04:38:05,560
when the crisis could be said to have broke in

4547
04:38:05,680 --> 04:38:09,000
some ways. Soviet freighters that have been bound for Cuba

4548
04:38:10,159 --> 04:38:19,159
turned back to Bucharest UN Secretary General. The UN Secretary

4549
04:38:19,279 --> 04:38:26,240
General called for a quote cooling off period during which

4550
04:38:26,279 --> 04:38:29,840
the embargo would be temporarily lifted and you know, only

4551
04:38:29,919 --> 04:38:33,040
non military product would be permitted to pass through. This

4552
04:38:33,200 --> 04:38:37,040
is rejected outright by the Kennedy administration and grounds they

4553
04:38:37,080 --> 04:38:39,599
would leave the missiles in place the removal which was

4554
04:38:39,599 --> 04:38:47,119
an express condition but a negotiation. Priday, October twenty sixth,

4555
04:38:48,840 --> 04:38:53,159
with the date of the infamous cashiw letter urging cruise

4556
04:38:53,159 --> 04:38:58,759
shift to initiate a first strike against the United States

4557
04:38:58,919 --> 04:39:04,319
an event of invading of Cuba. Whether Cruth did responded

4558
04:39:04,439 --> 04:39:08,840
or not, or whether Ramigo responded whether the ambassador to

4559
04:39:08,959 --> 04:39:14,240
Cuba had any sort of formal response in the Kremlin,

4560
04:39:14,439 --> 04:39:21,279
It's not clear. But again there's an inference that can

4561
04:39:21,360 --> 04:39:26,200
be drawn here. I believe not only the Cubans not

4562
04:39:26,479 --> 04:39:30,840
have the authority to launch the missiles, I don't believe

4563
04:39:30,880 --> 04:39:36,639
they were capable of it. There's an entire protocol to

4564
04:39:38,080 --> 04:39:41,759
launching a nuclear missile. It's not just a question of

4565
04:39:41,840 --> 04:39:47,680
pushing a button or having the right code, you know it, uh,

4566
04:39:47,959 --> 04:39:55,080
like in the movies. So the odds of ah of

4567
04:39:55,200 --> 04:39:58,319
just a general like counter value AsSalt nuclear result if

4568
04:39:58,400 --> 04:40:02,200
Cube had been invaded, I think it's somewhat remote. I

4569
04:40:02,240 --> 04:40:05,000
don't think I'm reading too much into this statement by Castro.

4570
04:40:05,159 --> 04:40:07,799
I mean, why this was a private communication at cruise

4571
04:40:07,840 --> 04:40:09,639
if like, well, why would cash will be you know,

4572
04:40:09,840 --> 04:40:12,919
flexing in that kind of private capacity, Like it doesn't

4573
04:40:13,759 --> 04:40:15,639
It doesn't make sense otherwise, you know, you know what

4574
04:40:15,720 --> 04:40:21,560
I mean, like it yeah, yeah, yeah, but it the

4575
04:40:21,759 --> 04:40:33,360
uh finally and finally, UH resolution ultimately came when the

4576
04:40:33,439 --> 04:40:37,720
cruise schiff wrote a long, rambling letter a second letter,

4577
04:40:39,119 --> 04:40:41,360
a few drafts of which, when the Soviet archives were open,

4578
04:40:41,439 --> 04:40:43,560
were found and leading a lot of people to believe

4579
04:40:43,599 --> 04:40:46,000
the cruiser was drunk when he wrote or dictated it,

4580
04:40:46,400 --> 04:40:49,080
which is probably true. It's not just you know, some

4581
04:40:49,240 --> 04:40:53,639
kind of punitive revisionist account like cruise Iff really was

4582
04:40:53,799 --> 04:40:56,680
drunk and in the execution of his official duties a lot,

4583
04:40:57,000 --> 04:41:01,680
you know it, uh, which oh was in part ohs

4584
04:41:02,959 --> 04:41:07,520
you know, to his his apparent instability. This is the

4585
04:41:07,639 --> 04:41:09,639
source of the of the quote, you know, demand that

4586
04:41:09,680 --> 04:41:14,520
America pledged to not invade Cuba, Like what in power politics?

4587
04:41:14,560 --> 04:41:17,119
What is some open ended pledge and not invade another

4588
04:41:17,200 --> 04:41:19,319
country amount? I mean that that doesn't amount to anything,

4589
04:41:19,599 --> 04:41:23,680
even as a face saving measure. It doesn't really make

4590
04:41:23,720 --> 04:41:26,840
any sense. This is immediately followed up by a second

4591
04:41:26,880 --> 04:41:31,360
letter from Moscow, which probably came from gram Ego or

4592
04:41:31,439 --> 04:41:36,159
from somebody in the Politburo Standing Committee or it's equivalent.

4593
04:41:37,279 --> 04:41:43,599
This second letter demanded actual conditions be met, primarily the

4594
04:41:43,720 --> 04:41:50,319
removal of Jupiter missiles from Turkey. Now Turkey and Italy

4595
04:41:50,439 --> 04:41:55,520
were these Jupiter missiles were intermediate range ballistic missiles that

4596
04:41:55,639 --> 04:42:00,680
have been deployed in I think nineteen fifty seven, fifty seven,

4597
04:42:00,799 --> 04:42:03,520
fifty eight around there, maybe as late as fifty nine,

4598
04:42:03,560 --> 04:42:06,319
but I'd have to double check that. I'm sure somebody

4599
04:42:06,319 --> 04:42:08,000
in the comments will wrake me over the colls if

4600
04:42:08,000 --> 04:42:11,400
I'm misstating the date they were deployed in Italy and

4601
04:42:11,439 --> 04:42:15,759
deployed in Turkey. As I said, by this, at this

4602
04:42:15,919 --> 04:42:20,360
point they were not strategic nuclear forces based in West Germany.

4603
04:42:21,159 --> 04:42:26,479
But the Soviets made much of this at the UN

4604
04:42:26,799 --> 04:42:30,080
in their own propaganda and formal objections to Department of State.

4605
04:42:31,040 --> 04:42:35,240
But these Jupiter missiles were on the cust of being obsolete,

4606
04:42:35,360 --> 04:42:38,840
you know, like we talked about earlier, the Polaris submarine

4607
04:42:38,880 --> 04:42:42,919
system was due to be launched within months, and it

4608
04:42:43,000 --> 04:42:49,439
was ultimately fielded in sixty three sixty four. And so

4609
04:42:50,000 --> 04:42:52,400
I mean this is basically meaningless. I mean, okay, as

4610
04:42:52,400 --> 04:42:57,840
a safe face, as a face saving gesture, maybe it

4611
04:42:57,919 --> 04:43:02,400
carried some weight, but I I think the I think

4612
04:43:02,439 --> 04:43:06,000
the Soviets were were still very much lagging and in

4613
04:43:06,119 --> 04:43:11,759
terms of the technological gap as regards strategic nuclear delivery systems,

4614
04:43:12,200 --> 04:43:15,400
that changed dramatically in the seventies for reasons we'll get

4615
04:43:15,439 --> 04:43:20,279
into in subsequent episodes. But this was the source of

4616
04:43:21,599 --> 04:43:23,360
this was the source of the concession. If you want

4617
04:43:23,400 --> 04:43:28,560
to look at it like that to UH remove to

4618
04:43:28,680 --> 04:43:36,400
remove the missiles from Turkey, and that UH that night,

4619
04:43:36,919 --> 04:43:43,599
UH Robert Kennedy met secretly with the Soviet ambassador and

4620
04:43:43,959 --> 04:43:48,360
they reached a basic understanding that the Soviet Union would

4621
04:43:48,680 --> 04:43:53,159
draw their their strategic nuclear platforms from Cuba under United

4622
04:43:53,240 --> 04:43:58,520
Nations supervision. In addition to UH an American pledge, you know,

4623
04:43:58,599 --> 04:44:04,639
this pledge not to invade you, and a secret understanding,

4624
04:44:05,040 --> 04:44:08,880
as it was referred to two, you know, to remove

4625
04:44:08,919 --> 04:44:11,680
the Jupiter MISSIALI from Turkey. And this too, I believe,

4626
04:44:11,759 --> 04:44:15,840
substantiates what I just said about the Soviets not really

4627
04:44:16,080 --> 04:44:18,720
realizing that the Jupiter platform was going to be absolutely

4628
04:44:18,799 --> 04:44:20,680
because like if it was just a face saving measure,

4629
04:44:20,680 --> 04:44:22,919
why wouldn't they make it public? Like they thought these

4630
04:44:22,959 --> 04:44:25,599
platforms were viable and they thought they were getting something,

4631
04:44:26,159 --> 04:44:29,560
you know it because the fact that it was UH,

4632
04:44:30,840 --> 04:44:32,880
the fact that it was not an above board concession

4633
04:44:33,200 --> 04:44:35,520
that the defeats the entire purpose of any of any

4634
04:44:35,520 --> 04:44:38,479
political theater that you know, might have might might have

4635
04:44:38,520 --> 04:44:45,360
been utilized by way of it of such a gesture. Now,

4636
04:44:47,400 --> 04:44:51,560
the problem with UH that the problem was this, and

4637
04:44:51,680 --> 04:44:53,639
in the view of people like LeMay but also in

4638
04:44:54,040 --> 04:44:56,279
the in the minds of people like Shelling and Trank,

4639
04:44:56,400 --> 04:45:03,680
even people like Herman Khan, there's a sense that eventually

4640
04:45:03,799 --> 04:45:07,319
conflict with the Soviet Union was inevitable, okay, and owing

4641
04:45:07,479 --> 04:45:10,279
the precedent of the twentieth century, that seemed reasonable. That

4642
04:45:10,400 --> 04:45:13,080
wasn't just a warmonger's kind of fantasy, you know, it

4643
04:45:13,200 --> 04:45:16,799
wasn't just you know, something that you know, cynical career

4644
04:45:16,959 --> 04:45:21,080
is in the national security establishment, like to say, or

4645
04:45:21,159 --> 04:45:23,759
bandy about, because it rationalized, you know, the kind of

4646
04:45:23,840 --> 04:45:25,959
cloud they had. I mean, yeah, there was some of that.

4647
04:45:26,680 --> 04:45:29,159
But if you were if you were, if you were

4648
04:45:29,159 --> 04:45:34,119
a middle aged man in nineteen sixty two, who who

4649
04:45:34,639 --> 04:45:38,080
whose entire career had been as a you know, in

4650
04:45:38,159 --> 04:45:44,400
public service, directly insinuated in the national security establishment, like

4651
04:45:44,520 --> 04:45:49,000
your entire your your entire professional life had been characterized

4652
04:45:49,040 --> 04:45:56,200
by by by by negotiating crises of a of of

4653
04:45:56,599 --> 04:45:59,880
of of basic national security and and and and conditions

4654
04:45:59,880 --> 04:46:04,680
of of general warfare or price short of but approaching

4655
04:46:04,799 --> 04:46:07,759
general warfare. You know this this just seemed to be

4656
04:46:07,919 --> 04:46:12,799
the reality the twentieth century strategic landscape. So that being said,

4657
04:46:13,159 --> 04:46:18,840
if eventually, you know, conflict is inevitable. You've got an obligation,

4658
04:46:19,560 --> 04:46:22,159
you know, to defend the United States at all costs.

4659
04:46:22,560 --> 04:46:26,159
And if that means preemptively, you know, waging a nuclear

4660
04:46:26,240 --> 04:46:28,759
war against the Soviet Union and we're so upacked, you know,

4661
04:46:28,880 --> 04:46:33,000
to absolutely defeat them before strategic nuclear parody is accomplished,

4662
04:46:33,599 --> 04:46:35,840
then that is, in fact, you know, not just the

4663
04:46:35,919 --> 04:46:38,520
moral thing to do, but that is what you're obligated

4664
04:46:38,560 --> 04:46:41,560
to do incident to you know, your office and the

4665
04:46:41,639 --> 04:46:46,759
duties incumbent they're in. And that was really kind of

4666
04:46:46,759 --> 04:46:50,080
the This underlay a lot of what was going on

4667
04:46:50,360 --> 04:46:53,959
in you know, the proverbial war room, Okay, around Kennedy.

4668
04:46:54,080 --> 04:46:58,959
It wasn't just you know, it wasn't you know, like

4669
04:46:59,080 --> 04:47:01,479
the way people like Oliver Stone characterize it, like these

4670
04:47:01,560 --> 04:47:05,000
kind of crazy cold warhawk warmongers, and you know, these

4671
04:47:05,080 --> 04:47:07,560
kinds of men of like better natured you know, saying no,

4672
04:47:07,680 --> 04:47:09,200
we're not going to go to war, Like it's not

4673
04:47:10,400 --> 04:47:13,479
that's entirely the wrong way to conceptualize it. I mean, yeah, again,

4674
04:47:13,599 --> 04:47:16,240
I don't have any illusions about a lot of these

4675
04:47:16,279 --> 04:47:20,680
people at all. Like there were there were personalities, you know,

4676
04:47:20,880 --> 04:47:25,400
insinuated in and rolls the highest authority in the Cold

4677
04:47:25,479 --> 04:47:28,159
War who definitely were like that, you know, who definitely

4678
04:47:28,240 --> 04:47:31,799
did not have the national interests in mind, or they

4679
04:47:31,840 --> 04:47:33,720
thought they did, but you know, they were clouded by

4680
04:47:34,080 --> 04:47:38,360
you know, matters of a of a pride or or whatever.

4681
04:47:38,560 --> 04:47:40,520
I mean. I think I think Thomas Power as being

4682
04:47:40,560 --> 04:47:43,799
one of those types. Frankly, but this is uh, but

4683
04:47:43,880 --> 04:47:45,880
that's what's essential to keep in mind, particularly because like

4684
04:47:45,959 --> 04:47:49,159
I said, even people, even people are somewhat you know,

4685
04:47:49,240 --> 04:47:53,959
sympathetic to you know politics, the right or you know,

4686
04:47:54,040 --> 04:47:58,000
revisionist perspectives. You know, they continue to cast people like, uh,

4687
04:47:58,680 --> 04:48:01,560
they can cast people like as what I just said,

4688
04:48:01,599 --> 04:48:05,000
these kinds of strange love or Janette Ripper type characters.

4689
04:48:05,119 --> 04:48:10,240
But uh, it uh, forgiving of this was kind of dry.

4690
04:48:10,400 --> 04:48:16,119
It was essential to kind of explain like how that

4691
04:48:16,360 --> 04:48:22,639
entire paradigm developed of the Cuba crisis, and it's uh,

4692
04:48:23,240 --> 04:48:25,639
the shadow of it loomed large. I don't just mean

4693
04:48:25,759 --> 04:48:29,759
like in metaphorical terms, but uh, in terms of how

4694
04:48:29,880 --> 04:48:35,639
policy was conducted as regards to Terrence and and uh

4695
04:48:36,880 --> 04:48:40,360
and the strategic balance and the Cold War, and this

4696
04:48:40,520 --> 04:48:43,959
really endured until nineteen eighty three and nineteen eighty three

4697
04:48:44,119 --> 04:48:45,799
was so dangerous, you know, I mean that's the Able

4698
04:48:45,919 --> 04:48:48,040
Archer era. That's the way it kind of Cold War

4699
04:48:48,119 --> 04:48:52,720
storians think of it. But but preceded Able Archer. And

4700
04:48:52,799 --> 04:48:55,400
one of the things that you know, created the conditions

4701
04:48:55,479 --> 04:48:58,279
that that that that led to the war scare was

4702
04:48:58,439 --> 04:49:01,599
uh that threatened to play event of the person two

4703
04:49:01,720 --> 04:49:05,599
platform in West Germany, you know, which really was a

4704
04:49:05,639 --> 04:49:08,400
game changer, and you know, the the end of day

4705
04:49:08,439 --> 04:49:12,319
Todd really kind of shattered the assumptions that underlay uh,

4706
04:49:13,000 --> 04:49:19,720
you know, deterrence uh from the Cuban missile crisis onward.

4707
04:49:20,400 --> 04:49:25,680
That's a complicated issue, but we'll get into uh, we'll

4708
04:49:25,720 --> 04:49:31,400
get into uh Johnson, Vietnam and Nixon next episode. Nixon

4709
04:49:31,479 --> 04:49:33,360
is gonna take more than one episode, but I will

4710
04:49:33,400 --> 04:49:38,279
at least like get into uh Nixon's first term next time,

4711
04:49:39,040 --> 04:49:42,759
UH incident, our discussion of uh of Johnson and Vietnam

4712
04:49:42,840 --> 04:49:46,560
and all right, I mean we'll see, depending on how

4713
04:49:46,560 --> 04:49:48,799
long your own to go, but yeah, we'll we'll we'll

4714
04:49:48,799 --> 04:49:51,560
get into some of that stuff. Uh yeah, yeah, And again,

4715
04:49:51,599 --> 04:49:53,000
forgive me if that was a if this was a

4716
04:49:53,119 --> 04:49:56,880
dry episode, it was essential to kind of lay foundation

4717
04:49:57,040 --> 04:49:59,040
for what comes subsequent No.

4718
04:49:59,159 --> 04:50:01,279
Speaker 1: I think this is a a topic of interest for

4719
04:50:01,319 --> 04:50:04,080
a lot of people. I can't let you go without

4720
04:50:04,439 --> 04:50:06,919
mentioning having you mentioned the Bay of Pigs.

4721
04:50:08,959 --> 04:50:13,080
Speaker 2: Yeah it, Uh, I think what the Bay of Pigs

4722
04:50:13,119 --> 04:50:18,720
owes to more than anything. I mean, the traditional kind

4723
04:50:18,799 --> 04:50:21,400
of discourse on it, you know, is it's like, do

4724
04:50:21,520 --> 04:50:23,799
we blame like, you know, the CIA and Department of State,

4725
04:50:23,880 --> 04:50:26,279
or do we blame the president of the National Security Establishment.

4726
04:50:27,200 --> 04:50:31,200
It's not that simple. There's a lot of there's a

4727
04:50:31,240 --> 04:50:35,319
long history. Uh. I was reading about Angola a lot

4728
04:50:35,439 --> 04:50:38,439
some years back, and you know, one of the reasons

4729
04:50:38,479 --> 04:50:41,439
why those poor guys, uh who ended up a servant

4730
04:50:41,520 --> 04:50:45,720
under callon a guy got got massacred, I mean by

4731
04:50:45,759 --> 04:50:48,119
the Cubans and by the by the Angolan out forces.

4732
04:50:48,439 --> 04:50:52,400
Like holding Roberto. He basically sold British intelligence and CIA

4733
04:50:52,439 --> 04:50:54,720
a bill of goods, you know about the reality of

4734
04:50:54,840 --> 04:50:56,520
like forces and being on the ground and what they

4735
04:50:56,560 --> 04:51:01,360
were capable of. The anti Castro Cuban Bobby Similarly, they

4736
04:51:01,400 --> 04:51:04,080
either shipped together a lot more than somebody like mister Roberto,

4737
04:51:04,680 --> 04:51:06,720
but they had a lot more money, and they had

4738
04:51:06,759 --> 04:51:08,639
a lot more flash, and they had a lot more

4739
04:51:09,080 --> 04:51:14,400
kind of cloud than they did actual capabilities. Okay, I

4740
04:51:14,479 --> 04:51:17,240
think there's a lot of people even in the intelligence community,

4741
04:51:17,319 --> 04:51:20,080
and I've got nothing nice to say generally about, you know,

4742
04:51:20,240 --> 04:51:23,520
the CIA of the era. But I think they had

4743
04:51:23,799 --> 04:51:26,759
I I think, I think they had good intentions within

4744
04:51:26,840 --> 04:51:30,520
the irrationality of what they were trying to accomplish. And uh,

4745
04:51:32,319 --> 04:51:36,880
I think, uh I, I yeah, it was nive. Maybe

4746
04:51:37,000 --> 04:51:39,479
maybe it was naive to think that they could accomplish

4747
04:51:39,880 --> 04:51:41,639
what they set out too with what I'm onted to

4748
04:51:41,680 --> 04:51:45,959
a skeleton crew of of cowboy type mercenaries and UH

4749
04:51:46,240 --> 04:51:49,919
and self styled uh uh you know, and self styled

4750
04:51:50,040 --> 04:51:54,360
uh counter revolutionaries. But they also they underestimated the strength

4751
04:51:54,439 --> 04:51:57,680
of UH of of Castro and the gameness of a

4752
04:51:58,400 --> 04:52:01,000
of the Cuban army. And this was entirely clear into

4753
04:52:01,080 --> 04:52:03,759
later Like speaking of Angola, you know, the Cubans deployed

4754
04:52:03,840 --> 04:52:07,040
fifty thousand deep to Angola. They fought the South African

4755
04:52:07,119 --> 04:52:09,639
Defense Forces. It was with the Crack army, you know,

4756
04:52:09,720 --> 04:52:13,119
and they they met him head on, you know, the Cubans. Uh,

4757
04:52:13,479 --> 04:52:16,439
the Cubans were basically constantly deployed throughout the Cold War,

4758
04:52:17,000 --> 04:52:20,599
you know, like they they really believed in the margins

4759
04:52:20,759 --> 04:52:25,799
Len and his cause did Uh would air cover have

4760
04:52:25,880 --> 04:52:30,520
made a difference? I mean, I it wouldn't have hurt

4761
04:52:30,560 --> 04:52:34,360
any But I mean I don't this idea too. It's like, okay,

4762
04:52:34,439 --> 04:52:38,439
let's say, you know, let's say uh, let's let's let's

4763
04:52:38,439 --> 04:52:41,919
say this. Uh, let's say this kind of like you know,

4764
04:52:42,080 --> 04:52:45,840
mercenary army, you know, had uh had ground assault air

4765
04:52:45,919 --> 04:52:49,040
craft and and air cover all day. You know, Cuba

4766
04:52:49,119 --> 04:52:51,080
cub would have just like Commy's cub wouldn't just like

4767
04:52:51,159 --> 04:52:54,159
fallen apart the minute like these guys marched on on Havana.

4768
04:52:54,319 --> 04:52:59,400
I mean, the Cuban still was. I mean, the Cuba

4769
04:52:59,720 --> 04:53:01,360
they were. They're down for the cause. I mean, in

4770
04:53:01,400 --> 04:53:04,639
this day as much as anybody can be. I mean it, uh,

4771
04:53:05,560 --> 04:53:07,000
I mean I read it like that. I don't think

4772
04:53:07,000 --> 04:53:14,880
it was realistic, the only the only Uh yeah, I don't.

4773
04:53:15,799 --> 04:53:18,639
I don't think there's a military solution to the Cuba problem,

4774
04:53:19,360 --> 04:53:21,880
you know, like there, I just don't. I mean that's

4775
04:53:21,919 --> 04:53:23,520
my take on it, like at a glance, And we

4776
04:53:23,560 --> 04:53:25,479
can do a dedicated episode on it if you want.

4777
04:53:26,599 --> 04:53:31,119
There's a lot there, but that's just you know, I

4778
04:53:32,040 --> 04:53:35,119
my point is it's like, I mean, even one of

4779
04:53:35,119 --> 04:53:38,479
the reasons that you know, and like jump to go

4780
04:53:38,520 --> 04:53:41,000
a little bit outside the scope. But you know, let's say,

4781
04:53:41,599 --> 04:53:45,159
let's say the counterfactual developed that you know, we I

4782
04:53:45,439 --> 04:53:47,400
I kind of touched on. You know, let's say that

4783
04:53:47,680 --> 04:53:50,959
you know, let let's take let's say America did assault

4784
04:53:51,000 --> 04:53:54,880
Cuba in nineteen in nineteen sixty two, okay, and then

4785
04:53:55,840 --> 04:53:59,799
the nukes weren't operational, and the Soviets didn't do anything

4786
04:53:59,840 --> 04:54:02,159
and lynn and it didn't escalate. It was just you know,

4787
04:54:02,720 --> 04:54:05,840
the Marines and us Aeerborne Corps or eighteen Airborne Corps

4788
04:54:05,840 --> 04:54:09,959
and you know, uh and uh in the us araforce

4789
04:54:10,040 --> 04:54:12,360
pounding the hell out of Cuba, you know, killing half

4790
04:54:12,439 --> 04:54:14,959
million people. You know, like what what then where you

4791
04:54:15,680 --> 04:54:18,639
I mean affecting some permanent hosta ogervation at Cuba like

4792
04:54:18,680 --> 04:54:20,959
would have been a bloodbath, you know, like think like

4793
04:54:21,040 --> 04:54:22,479
think about that, like that would that would have been

4794
04:54:22,479 --> 04:54:25,560
a complete freaking mess, you know, Like I don't, I

4795
04:54:25,639 --> 04:54:28,680
don't uh, I don't think there was a I don't

4796
04:54:28,680 --> 04:54:31,119
think there was a political there. I don't think it

4797
04:54:31,159 --> 04:54:34,119
was a military solution to it. One of the reasons why,

4798
04:54:34,919 --> 04:54:37,080
you know, I'm one of the few people, even though

4799
04:54:37,479 --> 04:54:41,279
I'm far from any kind of like like Cold War

4800
04:54:41,360 --> 04:54:43,759
hawk in in the study of history as I think,

4801
04:54:43,840 --> 04:54:51,040
you know, but I consistently praise I, you know, us

4802
04:54:51,159 --> 04:54:55,040
efforts uh in uh in, you know, in in the

4803
04:54:55,159 --> 04:54:58,599
Cone of South America and then later you know in

4804
04:54:58,799 --> 04:55:03,119
uh in in Central America and the Panama Canal zone,

4805
04:55:03,520 --> 04:55:07,279
you know, to resist uh warsaw packed ingress because that

4806
04:55:07,360 --> 04:55:10,959
was absolutely essential, because that would have in military terms,

4807
04:55:10,959 --> 04:55:14,159
America was actively losing the Cold War in the final phase, okay.

4808
04:55:14,759 --> 04:55:20,240
And if if Latin America had truly gone red in

4809
04:55:20,360 --> 04:55:26,279
these key locations, that would have that that that would

4810
04:55:26,400 --> 04:55:28,959
that would that would have totally changed things. But notice

4811
04:55:29,080 --> 04:55:32,319
what Nixon and then later Reagan administration didn't do is

4812
04:55:32,639 --> 04:55:35,200
didn't go in heavy you know, they made they went

4813
04:55:35,240 --> 04:55:37,840
into a very small footprint, okay, and they developed very

4814
04:55:37,840 --> 04:55:40,599
effective convolutionary cadres. You know what I'm saying that the

4815
04:55:40,639 --> 04:55:43,599
conferences weren't like nice guys or something, Okay, like the

4816
04:55:43,680 --> 04:55:48,439
Bison was not a nice guy. There was neither general finish,

4817
04:55:49,000 --> 04:55:51,360
but they were effective guys, and they weren't they weren't

4818
04:55:51,400 --> 04:55:53,200
just guys who were in it to you know, get

4819
04:55:53,279 --> 04:55:56,040
paid and advanced their own you know kind of cloud

4820
04:55:56,119 --> 04:55:58,759
and status. I mean, but my point is that, you know,

4821
04:55:59,799 --> 04:56:04,200
the the American uh national security apparatus treated it as

4822
04:56:04,240 --> 04:56:07,360
a political problem. Not is this like military exigency, you know,

4823
04:56:07,560 --> 04:56:10,400
like we're gonna we're gonna going to Nicaragua with fifty

4824
04:56:10,479 --> 04:56:13,520
thousand marines and kill everybody like that. No, that that

4825
04:56:14,119 --> 04:56:17,360
that that doesn't work. So that's my But it's complicated.

4826
04:56:17,400 --> 04:56:19,880
Then I'm not a military guy. But again I I don't.

4827
04:56:20,240 --> 04:56:24,959
I don't think what I'm suggesting can be h disputed

4828
04:56:26,200 --> 04:56:28,520
in any kind of absolute sense. But yeah, that that's

4829
04:56:28,599 --> 04:56:31,360
that's just that's my take on it. At UH got

4830
04:56:31,439 --> 04:56:31,799
to bed a.

4831
04:56:31,799 --> 04:56:35,799
Speaker 1: Glance or in short, rather what one thing you said

4832
04:56:35,799 --> 04:56:41,159
early on about the million and a half basically Soviets

4833
04:56:41,799 --> 04:56:46,959
pouring into West Germany. Yeah, those who hate Germany and

4834
04:56:47,119 --> 04:56:50,919
want to destroy her have never stopped that attack, have

4835
04:56:51,080 --> 04:56:55,720
they of just pouring foreigners into there? Too?

4836
04:56:58,159 --> 04:57:01,479
Speaker 2: No? I don't. I And that's what's key is that

4837
04:57:02,000 --> 04:57:05,720
the and that was I mean, that was the Hokey's

4838
04:57:05,720 --> 04:57:08,080
whole point about the Cold War, Okay, Yaqui's whole point

4839
04:57:08,159 --> 04:57:11,279
was that, Look, yeah, East Germany is is a horrible regime.

4840
04:57:12,639 --> 04:57:16,040
In some ways, it's you know, uh, you know, in

4841
04:57:16,119 --> 04:57:19,360
some ways it's it's it's literally dystopian. But it's not

4842
04:57:19,479 --> 04:57:22,200
going to be here forever. And it's not it's not

4843
04:57:22,360 --> 04:57:25,119
destroying you know, the cultural and and and like racial

4844
04:57:25,240 --> 04:57:28,400
foundation of the country. You know, like you can weather

4845
04:57:28,520 --> 04:57:31,799
that storm, like you can't whether the storm of you know,

4846
04:57:32,240 --> 04:57:35,959
the US NATO socially engineering Germany out of existence. I mean,

4847
04:57:36,000 --> 04:57:37,959
that's what we're seeing to the you know, and that's

4848
04:57:38,000 --> 04:57:41,400
what I constantly, like I constantly brush up against people,

4849
04:57:42,799 --> 04:57:44,639
you know, not just online, but I mean that this

4850
04:57:44,799 --> 04:57:47,919
happens to me in person when I'm in at venues

4851
04:57:47,919 --> 04:57:49,959
where you know, the issue is being discussed. Like I

4852
04:57:50,000 --> 04:57:53,080
think I'm like defending Stalinism or something like I'm not okay,

4853
04:57:53,159 --> 04:57:54,919
but that's not the point, you know, Like I don't

4854
04:57:54,919 --> 04:57:56,959
see how this can be disputed anymore. Okay. It's like

4855
04:57:57,080 --> 04:58:03,360
you think, uh, you think you know, I mean, it's like,

4856
04:58:03,400 --> 04:58:06,560
how how can anybody, how can anybody dispute that? You know,

4857
04:58:06,799 --> 04:58:09,759
I mean it well, I mean it's just like the

4858
04:58:10,000 --> 04:58:13,040
this this state, I mean that that that's that's the

4859
04:58:13,759 --> 04:58:15,799
you know, Yaqui was a was a genius because he

4860
04:58:15,919 --> 04:58:17,639
was you know he was he was writing about this

4861
04:58:17,799 --> 04:58:19,799
and night and you know in nineteen fifty eight, fifty

4862
04:58:19,919 --> 04:58:22,279
nine or whatever, like even before you know, he wasn't.

4863
04:58:22,319 --> 04:58:24,599
He wasn't some guy like me, like you know, looking

4864
04:58:24,759 --> 04:58:27,159
at history in the interview mirror, you know, I mean,

4865
04:58:27,240 --> 04:58:29,080
but look at I mean, look at look look at

4866
04:58:29,080 --> 04:58:31,759
the former East Block. Okay, yeah, those states have terrible

4867
04:58:31,840 --> 04:58:34,720
problems today, but they don't have the problems of some

4868
04:58:35,520 --> 04:58:38,919
you know, some some crazy of some crazy Zionists or

4869
04:58:39,040 --> 04:58:43,240
uh you know, elite or or or these are these

4870
04:58:43,319 --> 04:58:45,880
kinds of DeVos types, you know, declaring that you know,

4871
04:58:46,080 --> 04:58:49,400
they would you know they you know, when we need

4872
04:58:49,439 --> 04:58:52,680
to import as many you know, thritable populations as possible

4873
04:58:52,759 --> 04:58:54,479
because you know, this this this country is you know

4874
04:58:54,720 --> 04:58:57,319
too orthodox or too Catholic, or you know, or too

4875
04:58:57,400 --> 04:59:00,159
white or too German. I mean that that's that that's

4876
04:59:00,159 --> 04:59:03,240
a that's an existential problem that can't be overcome. Okay,

4877
04:59:03,360 --> 04:59:05,799
Like if you've got fucked up government in Romania or Croatia,

4878
04:59:06,200 --> 04:59:08,159
it's like, well, yeah, okay, governments that part of the

4879
04:59:08,159 --> 04:59:11,040
world where is fucked up. It's different than having, you know,

4880
04:59:11,799 --> 04:59:15,360
a social engineering regime with endless resources that's trying to

4881
04:59:15,439 --> 04:59:18,119
annihilate you as as a culture and as a people.

4882
04:59:18,720 --> 04:59:21,040
You know, like one you can handle, the other you can't.

4883
04:59:21,400 --> 04:59:23,000
I mean, but I mean, I guess that's a topic

4884
04:59:23,040 --> 04:59:28,360
for another UH episode or series entirely. But yeah, I mean,

4885
04:59:28,439 --> 04:59:33,319
that's that's the issue with the Cold War. Nobody's I mean,

4886
04:59:33,360 --> 04:59:35,119
maybe maybe there's some people claim that, you know, the

4887
04:59:35,799 --> 04:59:39,840
the the East Bloc regimes were good regimes. I mean,

4888
04:59:39,919 --> 04:59:43,840
I'm sure you can find some Marxist fossil at some

4889
04:59:44,040 --> 04:59:46,799
college saying that. I'm certainly not saying that. But that's

4890
04:59:46,799 --> 04:59:51,000
not the point. You know, you got to look at

4891
04:59:51,000 --> 04:59:52,400
these outcomes.

4892
04:59:53,000 --> 04:59:57,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's nuance there when you yeah, yeah, yeah, the least, Yeah,

4893
04:59:57,919 --> 05:00:00,119
when you read, when you read Jacky, especially when you

4894
05:00:00,159 --> 05:00:04,479
read The Enemy of Europe, You're you're experiencing a nuance.

4895
05:00:06,799 --> 05:00:10,119
Speaker 2: No, exactly. And it's also, let's two bear in mind,

4896
05:00:10,200 --> 05:00:12,799
like the Cold War by design wasn't supposed to happen.

4897
05:00:12,840 --> 05:00:14,400
I mean, whether it's like okay, even if you're this

4898
05:00:14,560 --> 05:00:17,479
art kind of like anti communist and everything, it's like, well, okay,

4899
05:00:19,240 --> 05:00:21,639
you know that the the Cold War happened basically because

4900
05:00:21,639 --> 05:00:25,599
the concord fell apart between Washington and Moscow. You know,

4901
05:00:25,759 --> 05:00:31,080
the idea was, you know, everybody in Washington who you

4902
05:00:31,279 --> 05:00:34,840
had any meaningful authority, was perfectly okay with you know,

4903
05:00:35,200 --> 05:00:39,080
essentially half half the planet being uh, you know, being

4904
05:00:39,200 --> 05:00:41,959
under the being under the heel of Stalinism. So it's

4905
05:00:42,360 --> 05:00:45,439
it's either here or there, you know, like whether somebody

4906
05:00:45,560 --> 05:00:49,759
like me and in the historical records defending or condemning

4907
05:00:49,840 --> 05:00:53,279
that system. I mean, you know, it's like the fix

4908
05:00:53,439 --> 05:00:56,680
was in like by America. Like it's these regimes didn't

4909
05:00:56,680 --> 05:01:02,200
emerge out of nowhere and were not for America, the

4910
05:01:02,360 --> 05:01:05,680
uh you know, communism would have u would have uh

4911
05:01:06,880 --> 05:01:08,959
what would have been annihilated from this planet and in

4912
05:01:09,200 --> 05:01:13,439
nineteen forty one. But the but yeah, yeah, exactly.

4913
05:01:14,400 --> 05:01:18,439
Speaker 1: That's a great way to end it. Uh, give your plugs,

4914
05:01:18,479 --> 05:01:19,080
we get out of here.

4915
05:01:20,240 --> 05:01:23,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, man at uh I you can find

4916
05:01:23,720 --> 05:01:26,759
the podcast and some of my long form on the substack.

4917
05:01:26,880 --> 05:01:30,759
It's uh real Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com.

4918
05:01:31,159 --> 05:01:35,680
And once again, forgive my uh absence from producing fresh

4919
05:01:35,919 --> 05:01:39,200
stuff the last couple of weeks. Uh, but I'm I'm

4920
05:01:39,279 --> 05:01:42,279
back in the saddle. I promise, Uh, we'll be back

4921
05:01:42,279 --> 05:01:45,720
to the regular kind of bi weekly schedule. You can

4922
05:01:45,799 --> 05:01:50,919
find me on Twitter at Triskellian Jahad. The T is

4923
05:01:51,000 --> 05:01:57,560
the number seven. It's one word otherwise. We're gonna launch

4924
05:01:57,639 --> 05:02:01,759
the YouTube channel, uh January first. I know that that's

4925
05:02:01,799 --> 05:02:06,040
been one and coming. I decided to push it back

4926
05:02:06,080 --> 05:02:09,000
to January a few weeks back because I want to

4927
05:02:09,080 --> 05:02:12,319
do it right and I've got a great production team

4928
05:02:12,400 --> 05:02:14,720
helping me, which is what I needed because I'm kind

4929
05:02:14,759 --> 05:02:20,840
of a tech retard and at long last Imperium Press

4930
05:02:20,880 --> 05:02:24,959
and I found a printer for steel Storm two, so

4931
05:02:25,080 --> 05:02:27,880
that is going to drop in January, and that's what

4932
05:02:28,000 --> 05:02:28,319
I got.

4933
05:02:29,080 --> 05:02:31,520
Speaker 1: Awesome. Thank you, Thomas. Till the next time. I can't

4934
05:02:31,520 --> 05:02:31,720
wait