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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Teachers Need Teachers Podcasts, the podcast for

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teachers who don't want to just survive teaching but actually thrive.

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I am your host, Kim Laprie, and I am really

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happy to have you here today. This is going to

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be a different kind of episode than we're used to,

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so buckle up. This is one that I've been sitting

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on for a while because it's complicated and I don't

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have a neat answer wrapped up with a bow. But

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I think it's a conversation or dare I say a

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rant that we need to have anyway, So we're going

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to have it today now. Many of that I've been

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teaching for twenty four years versus a band director and

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then as a middle school English teacher. During my time

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as a band director, I hate to admit that grading

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wasn't a really big deal to me because I didn't

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fully understand the impact that it could have. But once

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I switched over to English, I really had to stumble

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through grading because I just I couldn't find a method

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that felt right. I didn't want my grade book to

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just be an average of numbers like it was when

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I started out with English. I wanted to be able

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to look at a student's grade and clearly communicate areas

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of strength and areas of growth. And while my own

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approach to grading has evolved, it just it feels like

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the grading landscape in many ways has devaulved, and for

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so many of us, the role and value of grades

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have turned into somewhat of a battleground, and it's one

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that teachers have been losing. Now more and more of us,

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including myself, are asking the same question, what are grades

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actually communicating anymore? Like what are they even good for anymore?

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So today I want to talk on sleep about grading,

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where it came from, where it's gone, and why so

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many teachers feel stuck between doing what they believe is

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right and doing what feels easiest just to get through

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the school year. And I'm going to tell you upfront

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though I don't have a solution. At the end of

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this episode, I'll share what I'm doing and why. But

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more than anything, I want to start this conversation one

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that we need to have, and by we, I absolutely

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mean myself. So if you're at all amenable to the

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style of ranting episode, it's not going to be one

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of my peppy, hopeful episodes. Uh be sure to let

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me know in the comments and by giving this episode

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a like or thumbs up, subscribe if you can, and

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of course let me know where you stand on the

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state of grading after you've listened through this. So before

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we talk about how I feel grading has gone off

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the rails in some places, I'm going to give you

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a little bit of a history, especially for a newer

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teach and also as a refresher for those of you

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who have been teaching for a while, because none of

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this started out as unreasonable. So let's start with like

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grading pre two thousands, back in the day, and this

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is probably what you experienced if you were in school

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back then. I know that some of the teachers now

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the nearer teachers you weren't quite in school. School before

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two thousand, for decades, you know, grading was largely based

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on like, the accumulation of points right, and it emphasized compliance.

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The problem with that is that grades were doing too

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many jobs at once, because it's supposed to be communicating learning,

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but a lot of times it was also used to

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manage behavior, and it could be biased towards the quote

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unquote good kids, and then it tended to reward responsibility.

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So over time, educators start asking a very valid question,

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what exactly is a grade supposed to communicate? Should my

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class with a large group of disruptive students have lower

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grades than the class with the little angels? What does

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that say about those students learning? But more importantly, what

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does it say about us as teachers? And this is

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ultimately what convinced me to adopt the Standard Space grading model.

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All right, So fast forward to early to mid two thousands,

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we started talking about Standard Space Learning and grading for Learning,

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and this is where a huge grading reform began. So

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there were books like Grading for Learning by Ken O'Connor.

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I still have my second edition, green cover that I

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got at a professional development and his philosophy was this

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grades should reflect what students know and can do. Behavior

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and work habits should be reported separately, not in the

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main grade, and feedback should matter more than the accumulation

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of points, and learning should be prioritized over compliance. I

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want to know what my students can can't do just

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by looking at their grades. It also communicated to students

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where they were in terms of learning, and it made

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it easier to explain to a parent why their student

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didn't earn a certain grade. It's not because Johnny is

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only worthy of a SE. It's because Johnny does C

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level work. Johnny is getting c's on these skills right,

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And so then grades could be more of a tool

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for learning rather than just like this sort of like

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final judgment about the student. Fast forward to around twoy ten,

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this idea really took off and now districts were like,

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we are going to adopt this because this sounds awesome.

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It's even more about clear learning targets that define the skill.

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We want the students to know this is what you're

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aiming for when you do this particular assignment. And then

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we started to talk more about proficiency scales four three

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two one. We incorporated more structured feedback cycles to help

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students move up the scale. And so we give the

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students the feedback, they apply the feedback, and then we

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evaluate to see did they move up that scale, And

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of course that means reassessment opportunities, which allows students to

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give us new evidence of their learning, which is different

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than just like retaking a test over and over and

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over again until they get it right. And also it

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established like clear windows of opportunity for those retakes or

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reassessment so it wasn't just like an indefinite amount of

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time that students could redo this. They had to do

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it really close to when the lesson was actually taught.

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So again, grading for we never made it about like

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having fewer expectations for the students because we are grading

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it in a different way. But it was just meant

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to really focus on clearer expectations and then create this

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system taking them from where they're at and moving them

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to grade level. Fast forward a little more now to

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grading for equity. That's where we're at. Before I dive

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into that, let me know in the comments if you can,

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do you remember all of that. Were you around for

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standards based grading? Did you try to adopt it? How

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did it go? I'm super curious. Okay, it was something

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that was introduced in my district, but we have a

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lot of autonomy in terms of how we grade in

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my district, so not a lot of teachers necessarily adopted it.

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So I'm just curious. So now grading for equity, the

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language and the scope shifted. A lot of this stemmed

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from the fact that for years, even with grading for

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learning SAM space grading, the data showed persistent gaps in

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test scores graduation rates, discipline, and even having access to

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advanced coursework. And this was along like racial, socioeconomic, language,

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and disability lines, grading reform was again being discussed in

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a different lens, and so now it's it was turning

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into sort of like this moral issue and not just

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a pedagogical issue. In twenty twenty, a couple of things

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happened simultaneously. I'm sure you can guess one of them

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in this matter. So obviously COVID, which disrupted school unevenly

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for students, meaning that not all students experience the same pandemic.

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And so then teachers we were suddenly grading partial participation

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like we graded for when the students did show I

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couldn't really penalize them for not showing up because there

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could be factors outside of their control. Then, to add

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on top of that, after the killing of George Floyd,

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many institutions, including school districts, publicly committed to examining systemic inequities.

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But in education this translated into questions like are our

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regrading practices neutral and fair or do they actually advantage

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certain students? Are we penalizing instability instead of measuring learning?

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That's a big one and still do grades reflect skill

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or does it reflect access to support? And these are

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really big questions because a lot of our students that

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we and we saw this during the pandemic, they don't

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have access to support. They do live unstable lives, and

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so what's going on with grading? How is our grading

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aligning with that? And districts were under pressure to show

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commitment to equity and reduce failure rates address disparities in

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the outcomes of the students based on what was happening

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at home. So grading policies became one of the fastest

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levers to pull to address all of these things. I mean,

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it's easier to change than curriculum, because we know curriculum

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is expensive, it's a moneymaker. It's easier than adjusting the

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staffing and properly training teachers. It's easier and less expensive

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than decreasing class sizes to allow teachers to offer more

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support to these students. And it's easier than trying to

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find creative ways to fund additional support and programs to

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help mitigate those factors. I mean, it's just like, oh,

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we can just change grading policies because somehow that's going

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to fix the issue. So then grading mood from this

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instructural practice to an equity issue and works like Grading

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for equity by Joe Feldman reframed grading now as a

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justice issue and equity grading. It's not too far different

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from grading for learning, but here's some nuances. They want

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grades to be more accurate where grades equals learning and

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not life management. Again, just like with grading for learning,

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equity grading was meant to remove behavior and compliance from grades,

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so things like attendance participation bring supplies so that the

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grades actually reflect achievement because those are factors that we

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can't control. Another nuance with grading for equity again is

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supposed to be more biased resistant. So again the argument

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is that when we grade behaviors like timeliness and participation,

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we may unintentionally grade things like cultural norms, home stability,

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language barriers, a disability, work responsibilities. Grading for equity was

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supposed to be more motivating, keeping hope up through math.

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So this is where that fifty percent minimum and no

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zero's ideas came from. So on a scale of zero

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to one hundred and f can cover a huge range.

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I don't know what an F is for you. For

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some people, it's between like zero percent up to fifty

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nine percent and then sixty percent becomes the D minus.

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But it makes a single zero disproportionately destructive when the

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grades are averaged, So it creates like this huge hole

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that some students they just can't see themselves trying to

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dig themselves out of. It's just to them, it's like,

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what's the point, right, It's I'm so far behind? What's

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the point? I want to be clear that I'm I'm

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not denying that systemic inequities exist. I am a staunch

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believer that they do. And I'm really upset about the

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revisionist history it is happening in our textbooks and in curriculums. Yeah,

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that's another conversation for another day. Okay, they affect students'

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ability to perform and participate and even persist in school.

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But what I am questioning is whether grading policies are

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the right way to address those inequities, because look at

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what has happened when we ask grades to compensate for

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conditions that we actually can't change. So here's the thing,

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this is where the system completely went off the rails.

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So the goal wasn't supposed to be quote unquote free points,

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but districts implemented it in ways that felt like free points.

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I mean that minimum fifty It sure feels like free points,

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especially when it's applied to missing work rather than just

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like work that they at least attempted. And many teachers

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then experience reduced motivation because when you're going to get

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a fifty percent, it just dilutes accountability. Students see that

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they can just skip an assignment and magically get points

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for it. It's like not going to work and still

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getting paid for it. Across districts and especially in the

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stories that teachers are sharing online, the pattern is pretty consistent.

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Pretty much everyone passes and a is actually no longer exceptional.

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It's expected right and feeling grades are discouraged, they're questioned,

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oh boy, are they questioned, or they're just quietly reversed.

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And when this happens, we know that grades are no

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longer primarily communicating what a student knows or can do.

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They're just communicating that the student was on our roster. Right.

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So the shift went from demonstrating mastery to fulfilling or

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trying to reach particular outcomes aka higher passing and graduation rates,

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to demonstrate equity, and districts now want teacher compliance by

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pressuring them to keep those numbers up. And this is

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where many teachers are feeling this breaking point, especially when

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it comes to grading, because they're being told to just

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change the grade and feeling grades, they're requiring this extensive

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justification and even sometimes an individualized plan for a particular

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student to show how the teacher is going to help

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that student pass even though the student didn't even do

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the initial work at all, and then also then being

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asked to do better to ensure that more students pass,

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and then graduation or promotion rates are being folded into

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these grading conversations, and so grading isn't just about learning anymore.

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And while administrators are they're probably not explicitly saying we

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want you to lie about student learning, they're kind of

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suggesting that right. They're suggesting these grade changes passive aggressively

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by saying things like, are you sure the student really

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deserves an F? And what can you do to help

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them pass? What are the steps you took to ensure

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that they learned the material? How could your class, your management,

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or teaching style have affected these outcomes? How could have

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it maybe cause them to fail? And over time teachers

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are just saying pretty much that their professional judgment doesn't

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matter anymore. And of course this has been a trend

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in general, but especially when it comes to grading. I mean,

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they have to do what they know is an ethical

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sometimes because one they're being told to and their job

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could be on the line, and or two it's just

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easier than putting up a fight with admin or even

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worse like an angry parent. And speaking of parents, many

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of them have become emboldened by these policies because now

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they know what's up. I mean that's not to say

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that this is the first time that parents have strong

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armed teachers for a better grade. I mean this has

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happened like forever, but it's becoming more and more prevalent,

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and the tactics are just different now. Parents have caught

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on to this shift in many grading systems, and a

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lot of them have responded by disputing any grade that

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is low work than what they feel their child deserves,

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and teachers are increasingly describing parents demanding things like a

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detailed justification for every low grade, and in some cases,

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teachers have even presented clear evidence of in class work

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that the student refused to do, homework that the student

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chose not to complete, only to be told that the

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class was too boring, the teacher didn't remind the student enough,

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and that the student should wouldn't be responsible for managing

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their own work. I mean, the responsibility for effort, for

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follow through and even behavior. It's increasingly being transferred away

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from the student, away from the parent, and now it's

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placed squarely on our shoulders as teachers. So once again,

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grades are no longer about learning. Now they become evaluations

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of the teacher's performance, our performance as a motivator, an entertainer,

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a personal assistant to make sure they get their assignments

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done on time, and sometimes even as a surrogate parent.

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It's exhausting. It's exhausting, and ironically and sadly, the ones

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who are hurt the most by all of these decisions

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that these adults have made are the students. Because when

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grades stop meaning what they're supposed to mean, students notice

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and adjust accordingly. I mean, I talked about this episode

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one four. The students are watching. Students stop seeing them

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as feedback and start seeing grades as guarantees. Like learning

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becomes optional because the outcome has already been predetermined. I'm

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going to pass, whether or not I learn the information.

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And this is where that apathy and the learn helplessness

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has set in. This has been happening across the country,

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because why invest any kind of effort if deadlines are

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flexible and reassessments are unlimited from not in the mood

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today to do this properly, I can just retake it

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when I am in the mood missing work, I still

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get credit for it, and if not, someone will intervene later.

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And so now students are of the mindset, how little

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can I do and still pass? Now obviously these are

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broad generalizations, but we know that with every passing year

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we are seeing a larger percentage of students with this mindset.

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And that's why the shock is so intense when students

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encounter college or workplace standards again, and not because they're incapable,

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but because the rules are what they're supposed to be.

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The rules suddenly change back. Accountability finally matters, and these

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students they go back and they tell their teachers and

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also online that they go to college and they're shocked

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by the fact that professors are holding firm deadlines that

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maybe they'll have a retake. Maybe professors aren't willing to negotiate.

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The grades and consequences aren't actually softened by explanations. It's

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just like you didn't pass, that's it. Yes, you missed

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the comma. You lost ten points for missing a comma. No,

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you didn't cite your evidence properly. That's plagiarism. Now you

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get twenty five percent taken off. And actually, I've even

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seen college students admitting in various online forums that it

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was it's so easy to get an A in high

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school and now they're struggling so much in college, and

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a lot of them wrote about being unprepared for the

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expectations and even rigor of college and how their struggles

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have really affected their mental health. And trade schools and

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even employers they are reporting similar gaps, and not in intelligence,

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but in work habits, difficulty persisting through boring or difficult tasks.

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That's kind of what entry level jobs are. And again,

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it's not because the students are incapable, and it's not

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because those high school teachers failed. I want to make

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that clear. It's not the teachers who failed, it's the

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grading system that was forced upon them. It was the

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fact that students, year after year post pandemic, have come

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to each grade level so behind and unprepared that there

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was only so much that we could do to catch

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them up. Even though we couldn't fill those gaps, we

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are still required to pass them. So I understand why

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some teachers right now they've had their grade books with

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participation points, They're like, I can't do standards based grading.

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So many students are so far behind that they would fail,

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so they're just going to add points for showing up

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and being there. And I understand why a student who

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is maybe zero point one percent from passing it just

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kind of gets nudged over the line into passing, not

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because they demonstrated any form of mastery, but because the

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alternative is another meeting, another email chain, and another round

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of being questioned about your professionalism. I mean, teaching is

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hard enough, and at some point we're just trying to survive,

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and it sometimes it just outweighs principle. And I don't

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say that with judgment. I get it, I'm there, I

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feel it right and in my own classroom how I

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try to avoid all of this. I mean, yes, we

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do have a lot of autonomy, like I mentioned in

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my district, but that doesn't keep high maintenance parents away.

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So my grade book is actually fairly sparse, and most

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of what I assess and put into the grade book

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is tied directly to standards and skills, and students they

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can revise and red work based on my feedback anytime.

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I have a very generous late policy, but the truth

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is most students don't use it. I also know grade behavior,

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at least not in what we call the scholarship grade.

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We have citizenship grade, and that's where you can grade

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behavior and attendance. I don't factor in compliance or likability either.

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I believe in the premise of standards base and equity

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based grading. I really really do. But like many things

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that start with intentions, it's just been stretched and simplified

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for me and diluted a bit so that I can

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make it work and so that teaching can still be sustainable.

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And here's the part that I'm still sitting with though

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I don't know if the system can be fixed. I

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just I don't know. In some ways, it's like how

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prices have been going up. We know this inflation, but

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we know that they're not going to go back down

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once everyone gets comfortable spending a certain amount on food

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at a restaurant that just kind of becomes the norm, right,

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and inflated grades are probably just going to be the

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new norm. A four point oh used to actually mean something,

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and now four point oh people scoff at at the

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high school level because what you're not taking ten AP

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classes and getting an a P lesson there, you don't

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have like a four point nine or a five point zero.

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So then the question becomes pretty uncomfortable but unavoidable if

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grades don't motivate learning anymore than what does. Honestly, if

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we eliminate grades entirely and we rely on evaluations and

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rubrics and feedback, then how do we motivate students to

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practice multiplication tables, to memorize basic facts, to write essays

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about topics they don't care about, to read novels When

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TikTok gaming or AI offer instant reward with zero struggle.

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I mean, students have been trained now by systems that

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are larger than schools to expect payment for their effort.

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So if we take grades away, we have to be

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honest about what's going to replace it, Because I've heard

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some people suggest that we take it away, but I

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just feel like students are going to want that payment,

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that grade for putting forth any effort. Even though they

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get a grade for no effort, they still want something.

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I know it's been a long episode, but I really

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want us to have this conversation. I think it's important.

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I think you think it's important because I keep hearing

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about it and it hasn't gotten any better. So leave

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a comment whether you're like, on Spotify or on YouTube.

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If you're not, you can lead me an email, or

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you can hop onto one of those platforms and leave

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a comment too. So thanks for being here with me

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today and I will see you next time.