Speaker 1: You are listening to Truth Time with doctor Cornell West
Speaker 1: and Nina Turner. We count it all joy that we
Speaker 1: are together today and this is our favorite day of
Speaker 1: the week because it is teach in Thursdays on Truth Time,
Speaker 1: and that we got something rocking that's so unique and
Speaker 1: different and just has it's blowing my mind. And so
Speaker 1: I am going to toss this to you right away
Speaker 1: for our teacher on Thursday. This Thursday, I'm good.
Speaker 2: It was some time throwing in on towering figures who
Speaker 2: love black people who are willing to third I love
Speaker 2: and truth in this just a couple of days ago
Speaker 2: we had on our own life and with my seventy
Speaker 2: second birthday. But Brother Clifton and Brother Tavish is like
Speaker 2: a third brother. And so it occurred to me that
Speaker 2: in our teaching today it would be magnificent about somebody
Speaker 2: who got so much Fanny liut Hama and so much
Speaker 2: with Martin King and Malcolm Exit Nina Simone. In a
Speaker 2: I told sister Nina, we need to talk about Nina
Speaker 2: turning us.
Speaker 3: If you said in.
Speaker 2: All humans, oh no, I don't know, Doc, I said, yes, indeed,
Speaker 2: we want to hear about your life. We want to
Speaker 2: hear about your calling here, about how you've been able
Speaker 2: to sustain yourself over these years with the longevity of
Speaker 2: integrity and a consistency of loving black people.
Speaker 3: So let us begin at the beginning.
Speaker 2: Tell us something about your fact, tell us something about
Speaker 2: where you come from.
Speaker 1: Thank you Doc so much. And Doc laid it out.
Speaker 1: I said me no way, but Doctor insisted. And I
Speaker 1: am so humbled by that, said the oldest of seven
Speaker 1: and children. I grew up in the land and known
Speaker 1: as Cleve Cleveland, Ohio. Just you know everything about who
Speaker 1: I am. I was molded in this rustbelt rough let
Speaker 1: them know, rough and tumble environment here in Cleveland. We
Speaker 1: are very much fighters. My parents, very working class, working poor,
Speaker 1: as we would you know, describe it today. Very much
Speaker 1: worked really really hard. We had some roller coaster rides,
Speaker 1: you know, some some mountaintop moments, a lot of valley moments.
Speaker 1: It is by the grace of God that I am
Speaker 1: here today, and everything that I am today, it's primarily
Speaker 1: because of you know, the whole notion of nature nurture.
Speaker 1: It is both the environment of Cleveland. It is both
Speaker 1: of my parents, It is my grandparents on both sides,
Speaker 1: my maternal and paternal although I was very much more
Speaker 1: closer to my maternal grandmother then my paternal grandparents. Nevertheless,
Speaker 1: they all had an impact on helping me be who
Speaker 1: I am today.
Speaker 2: And so your mama's name, your dad's name, your grandmama's name,
Speaker 2: and granddad was what.
Speaker 1: My mama's name was. An emphasis on was doc. I
Speaker 1: think some in our audience may know. You know the
Speaker 1: story of how my mom died at the young age
Speaker 1: of forty two years old. Often say she died with
Speaker 1: her dreams deferred, quoting from the great poet from Cleveland himself,
Speaker 1: Langston Hughes. Fae is my mama's name. That is one
Speaker 1: of them old fashioned names, Faye, and then my maternal grandparents,
Speaker 1: and as ever saying, and then Oscar Oscar Steal Steal
Speaker 1: was his nickname, Emverson. My grandfather on both sides fought
Speaker 1: in World War Two. Yeah, yeah, both of my grandfather's
Speaker 1: my other grandfather, John Hudson, they fought in World War two.
Speaker 1: Of those who were in the Vietnam War. My mother
Speaker 1: was an only child, so all of my aunts and
Speaker 1: uncles other than my grandparents siblings. But when I'm talking
Speaker 1: about my aunts and uncles and my mother's and father's generation.
Speaker 1: I'm talking about on my father's side because my mom
Speaker 1: was an only child.
Speaker 4: So yeah, Johnny May Hudson, Yeah them, Johnny mays, Yeah.
Speaker 2: I wasn't you decided to be a love warrior, freedom
Speaker 2: fighter and intellectual wounded healer?
Speaker 1: Ooh, intellectual wounded here, Hiller, that speaks to me, you know, Doc,
Speaker 1: I don't think I had a choice. I really don't.
Speaker 1: I mean a certain thing of purpose and destiny and
Speaker 1: kind of finding it and when those things come together,
Speaker 1: certainly we all have choice. So let me back that up.
Speaker 1: When I say I didn't have much of a choice,
Speaker 1: there was a like a it was being pulled like
Speaker 1: a magnet. That's what I mean by not really having
Speaker 1: a choice, although we all always have choice, but that
Speaker 1: that whole notion of what you're seeking and seeking you
Speaker 1: and at such a young age, I mean I didn't know.
Speaker 1: I mean there were times where I felt hopeless and helpless.
Speaker 1: You know, my parents got married very young and it
Speaker 1: didn't work out. My mom was married four times. My
Speaker 1: dad was always a constant in our lives. My grandparents
Speaker 1: certainly always a constant, But we definitely grew up on
Speaker 1: the rough side of the mountain, a very transient you know,
Speaker 1: oftentimes when you're poor, your family is transient. So moving
Speaker 1: all over the place. We moved a lot within the
Speaker 1: city of Cleveland itself, and so that that breeds, as
Speaker 1: the science tells us now, a lot of instants and
Speaker 1: children having to start all over and not being able
Speaker 1: to cope with new environments and all of that. So
Speaker 1: when I hear this new generation talk about that, although
Speaker 1: I know that the science is what it is, also
Speaker 1: think as a gen xer, like, wow, you guys wouldn't
Speaker 1: have made it, you know then, because it was a
Speaker 1: complicated and very challenging and a very hard life. And
Speaker 1: but for my maternal grandparents, and as an Oscar Emerson,
Speaker 1: I just don't know where we would have been. Was
Speaker 1: food and secure at times, that is the social scientist's
Speaker 1: way of putting it out there, but just flat out
Speaker 1: did not have enough food to eat, hungry a lot
Speaker 1: of nights, a mother who prayed and cried, and parents
Speaker 1: who really they really tried. Sometimes when your parents try, though,
Speaker 1: they missed the mark and that has an impact on
Speaker 1: their children. And so I when you asked me what
Speaker 1: got me here? I think a spiritual understanding of what
Speaker 1: I had to endure as a child and even as
Speaker 1: a grown woman, even to this moment, even though I'm
Speaker 1: blessed to have fancy titles and certainly experiences that somebody
Speaker 1: who grew up in my type of environment in terms
Speaker 1: of economics, because my environment was rich was love. We
Speaker 1: just weren't rich with money. Yeah, yeah, but it's my
Speaker 1: keen understanding from whence I came. As James bald would
Speaker 1: put it, if you know, from whence you came, there's
Speaker 1: virtually nowhere that you cannot go, and so that's part
Speaker 1: of it. You're listening to Truth Time with doctor Cornell
Speaker 1: West and Nina Turner on Our Teacher in Thursday. Doctor
Speaker 1: West's idea. We are talking about Nina Turner. When we
Speaker 1: come forward, we will continue this most fascinating conversation. You
Speaker 1: are listening to Truth Time with doctor Cornell West and
Speaker 1: Nina Turner on our favorite Truth Time day of the week,
Speaker 1: which is our Teacher in Thursday. On this Thursday, we
Speaker 1: are lifting up. We are talking about the light and
Speaker 1: the legacy of the one and only Sam Cook. He
Speaker 1: was born on January twenty second, nineteen thirty one, in Clarksdale,
Speaker 1: Mississippi in the United States of America, and he died.
Speaker 1: He was murdered. We'll get into that on but he
Speaker 1: died on December eleventh, nineteen sixty four, in Los Angeles, California.
Speaker 1: He was shot to death. You know. One of his
Speaker 1: nicknames Doc and I didn't know that Dale Cook. I
Speaker 1: didn't know people. Some people called him Dale as birth
Speaker 1: name Samuel Cook, shortened Sam Cook, and as I said,
Speaker 1: very much known as the king of soul. Some would
Speaker 1: described his voice as being hypnotic smooth, and that he
Speaker 1: had these chisel looks. So you as your that's the
Speaker 1: story that you told us. We were coming forward about
Speaker 1: how we were coming to the church singing and and
Speaker 1: the women would get both a coronal Holy Ghosts and
Speaker 1: the spiritual Holy ghost all at the same time.
Speaker 2: That I don't know what that happened to with the
Speaker 2: spiritual Holy ghosts, but.
Speaker 3: They were in.
Speaker 1: They were in the spirit though we.
Speaker 3: And it hit the brothers too.
Speaker 2: Now the brothers didn't just fall out, but it hit
Speaker 2: the brothers too, Now, Lord Mercy, when I was little,
Speaker 2: first song we played without must have been eight years
Speaker 2: old with men on the chain game.
Speaker 3: That's the sound of the men working on.
Speaker 1: The chain gang, gold Dog working on the chain Gang.
Speaker 2: Oh we played that thing and we were just little boys,
Speaker 2: but the parents were playing it for us, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean?
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, yes, I remember that song again my grandma,
Speaker 1: And that's a jam of mine. I mean, I know
Speaker 1: people might think, are you kidding me? It's just something
Speaker 1: about that song and the words are so true, but
Speaker 1: the way you put them together and the music behind it,
Speaker 1: it just like wow. And you know when that part
Speaker 1: of the all day long, they going.
Speaker 3: Ha ha ha, that's it.
Speaker 1: I promise how all the is do? I will not
Speaker 1: quit my day job.
Speaker 2: Oh no, shoe, we need to take this on the road.
Speaker 2: He's been old pressed and subjugated and repressed, yet at
Speaker 2: the same time, here he was, as a black man,
Speaker 2: transporting us to another world with his artistic genius. And
Speaker 2: he knew that he was doing that alongside others, and
Speaker 2: that is very important to keep in mind.
Speaker 3: He was an intellectual who read intensely.
Speaker 2: Richard Franklin who said he was her favorite artist, and
Speaker 2: I think w Reith was in love with Sam when
Speaker 2: they first met, but she said he was.
Speaker 3: Reading all the time. Isn't that something now?
Speaker 2: He's exposed to a whole lot of reading from the
Speaker 2: Bible and other texts. But he had this intellectual side
Speaker 2: to him, artistic side, spiritual side, and what we call
Speaker 2: a street side, all intertwined together. That's Sam cooking that
Speaker 2: eat that he put at the end of his name
Speaker 2: that he added nineteen fifty six when he left the
Speaker 2: soulsters and let them know, I'm mustering the courage like
Speaker 2: Ray Charles like a wreath to move from the church.
Speaker 3: Into rhythm and blues.
Speaker 2: Now, he was demised, he was vilified as the devil's music.
Speaker 3: You've been singing about Jesus all.
Speaker 2: Next thing, you know, you talking about Chain games and
Speaker 2: you talk about Chain's gonna come. He say, hey, there,
Speaker 2: he is a spiritual and religious sensibility to rhythm and
Speaker 2: blues when it's some right and done in the right manner.
Speaker 2: And he's absolutely right.
Speaker 1: Yes, sir. And the key word rhythm and blues is
Speaker 1: telling the whole story of a people and using his gifts.
Speaker 1: A God definitely gifted him. There were some people who
Speaker 1: are talented and they enhanced that talent. There's some people
Speaker 1: who are gifted and talented, and it is very clear
Speaker 1: that people like Sam Cook, Aretha Franklin, Nina Simone, Ray,
Speaker 1: Charles Luther. I mean, we can go on and on
Speaker 1: and on b B king them kind of people gifted
Speaker 1: and talented, they're just not a talent. And his first
Speaker 1: single release was in nineteen fifty seven and it was
Speaker 1: You Send Me Oo. And that song sold over a
Speaker 1: million copies, and that was the song that catapulted Sam
Speaker 1: Cook into like international stardom. And as the stories go,
Speaker 1: some of the reports that producers were buying like they
Speaker 1: were fighting over trying to sign him.
Speaker 2: M can you imagine no, Now he's twenty six years old,
Speaker 2: he's being camptapouted out into the world. And that's the
Speaker 2: song you Send Me, which has been transportant folk and
Speaker 2: transforming folk for the last seventy years and continues to
Speaker 2: do so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean just timeless. Generation after generation after generation
Speaker 1: will know Sam Cook. I mean, I play Sam Cook
Speaker 1: for my for my grand babies. I played me some
Speaker 1: moll too. That's how you keep it, That's how you
Speaker 1: keep it going, you know, I play I play Michael
Speaker 1: Jackson and Prince you know, even though they don't know
Speaker 1: who these people are, but then they are going to
Speaker 1: keep that tradition a live He was also a composer
Speaker 1: to doc not just a singer. So people should know
Speaker 1: as you were laying out how he read. He was
Speaker 1: a voracious reader. All those those talents go hand in hand.
Speaker 3: A absolutely.
Speaker 2: You know he was born just within weeks of Tony Morrison,
Speaker 2: is that right? That's some nineteen thirty one January. She
Speaker 2: was born in February. He was born January. And in
Speaker 2: fact we should know, you know, within six weeks when
Speaker 2: he died in December sixty four, we lost Sam Cook,
Speaker 2: we lost Nat King Cole, we lost Lauree and Hansbury,
Speaker 2: and we lost Malcolm x between my god, February sixty five. Yeah,
Speaker 2: very rare that you would have those kinds of geniuses
Speaker 2: and giants lost so quick, because I mean Nat King
Speaker 2: Cole if anybody had a beautiful voice in the history
Speaker 2: of the world, and Sam in the same zone, Laurence Frey, genius,
Speaker 2: Malcolm xIC. We don't have a language for all gone
Speaker 2: in six weeks. That's a major, major holes created in
Speaker 2: our culture just within those six weeks.
Speaker 1: You talking about a seismic shift, That's.
Speaker 2: That's the word I'm looking for, seismic shift.
Speaker 3: It could have been just one of them would have
Speaker 3: been enough.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but when you put all them giants together,
Speaker 1: Dot and not just to be famous, to be famous
Speaker 1: like a lot of people think today, not that superficial fame.
Speaker 1: Were talking about people who were deep rooted, loved black people,
Speaker 1: loved humanity, We're not afraid to speak up and to
Speaker 1: speak out, and was risking a lot to do it.
Speaker 2: That's absolutely so he was anointed. That's what I would say.
Speaker 3: He was.
Speaker 1: Definitely annointed. And I want my house to play for
Speaker 1: us a little bit of you send me, you send me,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, so he ain't change gonna come, which
Speaker 1: folks heard a little earlier. And Darling you said, well
Speaker 1: it's called you send me. But he says, Darland, you
Speaker 1: send me. I mean just from the moment he belts
Speaker 1: those words out, but from the moment those words leave
Speaker 1: his lips. You already you you caught up. You caught up.
Speaker 1: You can't you can't shake him after that.
Speaker 3: That's real. And his friendship with Moham and Ali.
Speaker 1: And yeah and Minister Malcolm Max Yeah. Yeah. Think somebody
Speaker 1: did a movie. I'm forgetting the name of it, but
Speaker 1: it kind of is edgemontatement. I want people to know,
Speaker 1: but it brought all of them together, uh in a
Speaker 1: in a fictitious but also you know a colonel truth way.
Speaker 3: I remember that.
Speaker 2: Some people say that he was killed because creating a constitution.
Speaker 2: He was creating his own label to get black artists
Speaker 2: off the plantation and ensure that we had our own
Speaker 2: independent and autonomous labels, which meant we would have made
Speaker 2: not just more money.
Speaker 3: Would have had more power, would have had more leverage.
Speaker 2: And just like Oldest Red and people said Sam Cook
Speaker 2: had been doing trying to do the same exact thing,
Speaker 2: Colchre was trying to do the same thing when he
Speaker 2: died at forty two with Amelotti ol A Tanji.
Speaker 3: But it's something about these great.
Speaker 2: Artists when they make a move to create their own
Speaker 2: black independent institutions in the music industry, because it's so
Speaker 2: much money and they getting ripped off every day, every week,
Speaker 2: every year, all that genius is just translated into money
Speaker 2: for somebody else. As Kendrick Lamar would say, people trying
Speaker 2: to pimp our butterfly.
Speaker 1: Definitely, I mean they want our rhythm, but not our blues.
Speaker 1: And somebody said I cannot take credit for that quote,
Speaker 1: So I want our audience to know somebody said it.
Speaker 1: I don't know who, but it is true when they
Speaker 1: say that, And what they mean by they is the
Speaker 1: larger society, be a white society or other. That folks
Speaker 1: want our rhythm. They don't want our blues. They love
Speaker 1: our gifts, but they're not gonna do anything to make
Speaker 1: sure that we live in a world where our gifts
Speaker 1: can be enhanced by having health care, by making a
Speaker 1: living wage. I know our audience like there, they go, Yes,
Speaker 1: we gotta link all of this stuff and not to
Speaker 1: think about how creative we are as a people, even
Speaker 1: under so much pressure.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely, and the people still want to exploit it.
Speaker 2: They is all the creativity they can and translated into
Speaker 2: money for themselves and give us crumbs and then get
Speaker 2: upset when we ask for more than crumbs.
Speaker 1: There it is, you're making me think of a movie
Speaker 1: that I also recommend. I know the name of this
Speaker 1: one family and the name of this movie is called
Speaker 1: Cadillac Records, and Beyonce was in it and some other
Speaker 1: folks were in that movie and it depicts doc to
Speaker 1: your point about how our stuff was stolen from us
Speaker 1: and we made other people being white people. Let's just
Speaker 1: go and tell the truth for shame the devils, my
Speaker 1: grandmother would say, from all ethnic groups wealthy and how
Speaker 1: we were cheated. Now, Cadillac Records is edge maintainment, but
Speaker 1: the major thrust of the gifts of black singers, and
Speaker 1: also how the industry is self stole from us Dak
Speaker 1: when we highlighted we talk about Prince the Purple One
Speaker 1: often too, and how he wanted to make sure that
Speaker 1: he kept his his stuff, he kept ownership of of
Speaker 1: of of his of what he was producing, that it
Speaker 1: was not owned by other other people. I wouldn't doubt
Speaker 1: to loop back to what you were saying about some
Speaker 1: of the theories as to why Sam Cook was murdered,
Speaker 1: that is totally plausible to me.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's hard to know, but we know that
Speaker 2: he was not highly popular among the highest echelons of
Speaker 2: the music because he was such a genius when he
Speaker 2: came to his artistry, but he was such a politically
Speaker 2: astute brother when it came to not wanting to be
Speaker 2: on anybody else's plantation.
Speaker 1: That's true liberation right there.
Speaker 3: I'm telling you encourage.
Speaker 1: Yeah, on your stuff, own your stuff. Now, let us
Speaker 1: note that he was voted the fourth greatest singer of
Speaker 1: the rock and roll era in the Rolling Stone magazine
Speaker 1: poll that was taken in two thousand and eight. Seems
Speaker 1: almost like a lifetime ago. But the fact that he
Speaker 1: died in the sixties and in two thousand and eight
Speaker 1: they did a poll and he ranks number four tells
Speaker 1: us a lot about his genius and the general generational
Speaker 1: impact of his music, and that he also was a
Speaker 1: huge influence on other R and B artists, rock and
Speaker 1: roll type artists, which don't surprise us, but you had
Speaker 1: already mentioned Otis Redding and also Marvin Gaye considered Sam
Speaker 1: Cook one of his favorite artists of all time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Reith too, absolutely.
Speaker 2: I mean Sam Cook, when you think about it, is
Speaker 2: one of the few brothers who is in the highest
Speaker 2: conceivable a vocal genius. And that tends to be the
Speaker 2: Black Sisters at the highest level. Sarah Vaughon, Billy Holliday, Elephizgerald,
Speaker 2: Carmen McCrae, Retha Franklin, Mahaya Jackson.
Speaker 3: See, it's hard for brothers to get into that that club.
Speaker 2: I'm telling you that right now, and Luther and others
Speaker 2: will be the first one to say, I know, I
Speaker 2: got a whole out of the offer. But when when
Speaker 2: well reatha come in, I'm sitting down, Von starts singing,
Speaker 2: I'm sitting down.
Speaker 3: Sam Cook and Luther and Nat.
Speaker 2: King Cole would be small group that could gain interest
Speaker 2: into the club. They're not gonna be at the center
Speaker 2: of it, but they're gonna be in the club. Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: Joe William got us, you got you got we got
Speaker 2: some brothers. Who's something. Donnie Hathaway would be in that club.
Speaker 2: You see what I mean.
Speaker 1: You know, it's powerful when you recognize you you just
Speaker 1: in the in the room.
Speaker 2: You're just in the room. Jael LeVert would be right
Speaker 2: on the edge, but he's in the club. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's but they would recognize when they looked at who
Speaker 2: was at the center of and they saw Maheia and
Speaker 2: Sarah and Billy and Ella, and they said, oh Lord.
Speaker 3: We're so glad to be in the room. We don't
Speaker 3: know what to do.
Speaker 1: If I could just touch to him of the garment
Speaker 1: of these of these great ones. You are listening to
Speaker 1: Truth Time with doctor Cornel West and Nina Turner. This
Speaker 1: is our teach in Thursday. We are teaching in about
Speaker 1: the One and Only Sam Cook born on January twenty second,
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty one, and he died on December eleventh, nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty four, in Los Angeles, California. Said, mister Cook was
Speaker 1: shot to death. When we come forward, we're gonna continue
Speaker 1: talking about his life and what he brought to all
Speaker 1: of us. Truth time with doctor Cornell West and Nina Turner.
Speaker 1: This is our teaching Thursday talking about the one and
Speaker 1: only Sam Cook. If you are just joining us, welcome.
Speaker 1: We are so glad that you are here. If you
Speaker 1: have been on this ride with us from the beginning,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for that. Now, Sam Cook was married,
Speaker 1: doct it's important. I'm gonna lift up these spouses of
Speaker 1: Barbara Campbell and that was October ninth and nineteen fifty
Speaker 1: nine to December eleventh, nineteen sixty four. So she, you know,
Speaker 1: was his wife when he was murdered. And they have
Speaker 1: three children. And then we have Dolores Elizabeth Milligan Mohawk
Speaker 1: and they were married in October of nineteen fifty three
Speaker 1: and divorced on November fifteenth, nineteen fifty seven. So the
Speaker 1: one and only Sam Cook was married twice. Three children,
Speaker 1: Linda m Womack, Tracy Cook and Vincent Cook.
Speaker 3: Lord Lord. Yes, just a.
Speaker 1: Little family background. And then Dr West. I know how
Speaker 1: you always love lifting up people's parents because but for
Speaker 1: the parents, we would not be here. And the names
Speaker 1: of his parents, Charles Cook and Annie May Carrol, those
Speaker 1: are his parents. And so he he changed the landscape
Speaker 1: of R and B. No doubt all of it. Like
Speaker 1: this type of music, it is connected to all of
Speaker 1: the different varieties of music. But he definitely shook all
Speaker 1: of that up. And then his song The Change Is
Speaker 1: Gonna Come was really different from a lot of his
Speaker 1: other work. And I'm curious, I'm not sure if you know.
Speaker 1: Was it the the uprising of black people? The changing
Speaker 1: cultural dynamics of black people are fighting continuously fighting to
Speaker 1: regain their humanhood in this country. That made him like
Speaker 1: change up that way? I mean, Change Gonna Come is timeless.
Speaker 3: Oh no, it's true.
Speaker 2: I think he was always attuned to the struggle of
Speaker 2: black people. I think that when he wrote that song,
Speaker 2: something very very unique was happening inside of him that
Speaker 2: flowed from him.
Speaker 3: But it had been from the very beginning.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's my sense, because for example, people would
Speaker 2: say in talking to Sam Cook that he would always
Speaker 2: talk about black history. He was reading texts black history,
Speaker 2: and he was always relating the music