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That's chumbuck 22 00:00:56.799 --> 00:00:57.640 Casino dot com. 23 00:00:57.679 --> 00:00:59.880 No'll purg necessary Dvoid, where Everybody lost in terms of 24 00:00:59.920 --> 00:01:00.880 it since eighty plus. 25 00:01:07.799 --> 00:01:11.239 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 26 00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:14.359 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 27 00:01:14.439 --> 00:01:21.719 written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 28 00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:25.439 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 29 00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:29.719 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 30 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:42.719 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening. 31 00:01:43.319 --> 00:01:46.359 Brad Hunter has spent over thirty years writing about some 32 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:50.319 of America's more horrific crimes. In this new book, he 33 00:01:50.519 --> 00:01:53.519 enters the mind of John Wayne Gacy, the real life 34 00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:57.120 killer clown often said to be the inspiration for Stephen 35 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:01.599 King's evil Pennywise. In it, Gaycy lured victims to his 36 00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:04.519 home with the promise of work or a warm bed, 37 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:07.599 and then duped them into putting on handcuffs, claiming he 38 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:10.439 wanted to show them a magic trick. He would then 39 00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:14.159 rape and torture his victims before killing them by suffocating 40 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:17.120 or strangling them. Twenty six were buried in the krawl 41 00:02:17.199 --> 00:02:21.159 space beneath his home. Others were buried elsewhere on his property, 42 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:24.479 while a handful were dumped into the plains River. Gaysey 43 00:02:24.639 --> 00:02:27.639 was executed for his crimes in nineteen ninety four, but 44 00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:31.800 many questions remained unanswered. How many victims were there, did 45 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:35.840 Gaysey act alone? And what drove John Wayne Gaysey to murder? 46 00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:40.120 What caused the seemingly normal Gaysey to sexually assault, torture 47 00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:42.479 and murder at least thirty three. 48 00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:43.360 Young men and boys. 49 00:02:43.719 --> 00:02:47.520 Drawing on his many years experience investigating and interviewing perpetrators 50 00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:51.000 of terrible crimes, Hunter seeks to understand what drove Gaysey 51 00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:54.319 to unleash a reign of terror in suburban Chicago. The 52 00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:57.280 book they were featuring this evening is Inside the Mind 53 00:02:57.319 --> 00:03:00.759 of John Wayne Gacy, The Real Life Killer, with my 54 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:04.560 special guest, journalist and author, Brad Hunter. Welcome to the program, 55 00:03:04.599 --> 00:03:07.080 and thank you very much for this interview. Brad Hunter, 56 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:09.800 good to be here, Dan, thanks for having me. Thank 57 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:14.520 you so much and very timely to have something about 58 00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:18.039 John Wayne Gacy, something new for people to read. 59 00:03:18.240 --> 00:03:19.759 Thank you so much for this interview. 60 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:23.759 Let's start right away with John Wayne Gacy. His father, 61 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:27.439 John Stanley Gacy, and he was in. 62 00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:28.120 World War One. 63 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:32.439 Tell us about John Stanley Gacy before he entered the 64 00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:34.879 war and what happened, and. 65 00:03:34.759 --> 00:03:36.520 What was he like when he returned. 66 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:41.400 Well, people said that John Stanley Gacy was a fairly 67 00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:45.919 normal guy. He's quite a bright guy, fairly industrious and 68 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:49.199 with even tempered before he went off to the killing 69 00:03:49.240 --> 00:03:52.199 fields of Europe in the First World War, you know, 70 00:03:52.840 --> 00:03:56.800 and listed and was sent overseas and reportedly saw a 71 00:03:56.879 --> 00:04:00.360 significant amount of cournage while he was fighting on the 72 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:05.680 Western Front. When he returns to America, he is, you know, 73 00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:10.199 as many people are who endure that kind of horror. 74 00:04:10.360 --> 00:04:14.159 You know, he was a changed man, shorter tempered, and 75 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:18.879 just not as pleasant as he had been. 76 00:04:19.160 --> 00:04:23.240 You talk about alcoholism though, that plagued that marriage, and 77 00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:28.240 he was characterized as being quite abusive and was haunted 78 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:30.600 by his time in World War One. 79 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:34.160 Yeah, well pretty much pretty much every evening. I mean 80 00:04:34.199 --> 00:04:38.839 he married fairly late, but for the time anyways. 81 00:04:38.959 --> 00:04:40.800 But you know, every evening he. 82 00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:45.600 Would go into the basement of his nice neat home 83 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:49.560 in Chicago and get blasted. And you know, down would 84 00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:54.199 go a reasonably normal scene person, and up would become 85 00:04:54.240 --> 00:04:58.079 a monster. I mean, John Wayne Acy himself, you know, 86 00:04:58.160 --> 00:05:00.639 would see you know, I had seen his mother slugged 87 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:05.160 around by John Stanley and her dentures flying through the air, 88 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:08.680 and that was also something that you know, he bore 89 00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:12.000 the brunt of as well, and obviously it. 90 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:15.319 Played some role in the development of his character. 91 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:18.399 You write that early on he was sickly, had a 92 00:05:18.600 --> 00:05:23.360 heart condition, and so he was told not to participate 93 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:26.439 in any sports at school whatsoever. And some of the 94 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:30.480 things that he was drawn to were in opposition to 95 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:33.879 what his father thought was a masculine thing to do. 96 00:05:34.120 --> 00:05:35.399 Can you explain, Yeah. 97 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:39.920 Well, I mean, I think John Stanley Gacy's view of 98 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:44.720 manhood was significantly different than what we might see today. 99 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:47.480 He named John John. 100 00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:54.079 Wayne after the movie star whose famous tough guy and swashbuckling, 101 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:56.519 even though he didn't serve in the war. But yeah, 102 00:05:56.680 --> 00:06:00.560 so he had his image of manliness, whereas his son, 103 00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:05.360 his only son, was interested in baking and hanging around 104 00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:08.800 with his mothers and sisters and being in the kitchen 105 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:12.319 and sewing and things like that, things that in the 106 00:06:12.439 --> 00:06:17.240 nineteen forties America that wouldn't have been necessarily seen as 107 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:20.480 the way to go, particularly as him being a sickly 108 00:06:20.639 --> 00:06:24.720 child and less than robust his father. And I would 109 00:06:24.759 --> 00:06:28.319 certainly say probably a large part due to his boozing. 110 00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:31.399 Would he would you know, sit and stew about his 111 00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:34.839 son down in the basement. He'd come up and he'd, 112 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:37.519 you know, he'd hit him at Casey, you know, got 113 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:41.839 cop wearing his mother's clothes, you know, once and for 114 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:44.680 a number of times, and that, of course, you know, 115 00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:46.759 needless to say, didn't fly well. 116 00:06:46.839 --> 00:06:49.879 And you know he you know, point blank, you know, 117 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:53.800 called the mississi and any other epithet that you know 118 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:56.240 may target his masculinity. 119 00:06:56.439 --> 00:06:59.519 You right too, that he was plagued by passing out 120 00:06:59.639 --> 00:07:01.839 or fame, and his father thought he was just a 121 00:07:01.879 --> 00:07:06.160 hypochondriact and didn't add to his masculinity whatsoever. 122 00:07:06.519 --> 00:07:08.160 So when he was twenty years old in. 123 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:10.439 Nineteen sixty two, you're right, did he took off to 124 00:07:10.519 --> 00:07:11.279 Las Vegas. 125 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:13.759 He knew he had a cousin there. 126 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:17.639 But even there he passed out in his car overheated 127 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:22.000 and was taken to the hospital. However, he did find 128 00:07:22.120 --> 00:07:25.120 work there, and he did find his cousin who was 129 00:07:25.240 --> 00:07:29.160 a prostitute, and so he did find out a life 130 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:33.639 outside the one from his own oppressive family, and even 131 00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:36.680 got a job there for a time at a mortuary, 132 00:07:37.000 --> 00:07:41.279 and did experience something sexual as a result at that morgue. 133 00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:44.639 As you write, yeah, Gaycy. 134 00:07:44.360 --> 00:07:47.360 Got a job at a moorg He lived with his 135 00:07:47.399 --> 00:07:49.160 cousin for a while as a hooker. 136 00:07:49.240 --> 00:07:51.560 Cousin for a while in Vegas said he. 137 00:07:51.639 --> 00:07:55.519 Got a job at a morgue, and one evening he 138 00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:58.680 was I can't remember whether he was sleeping there or 139 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:02.439 whether he was working there, sleeping overnight there he crawled 140 00:08:02.439 --> 00:08:05.000 into the casket of a young man who'd been killed 141 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:10.439 in an accident and was sexually excited acy himself. Leader 142 00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:13.600 said that he was sexually excited by the incident, and 143 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:16.720 you know, that seems to be putting him, you know, 144 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:18.480 starting to be putting on the path. 145 00:08:18.560 --> 00:08:20.600 I don't know, you know, too many twenty year olds 146 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:23.040 who want to climb to the casket with a dead 147 00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:28.800 body for sexual reasons. So, yeah, he gets going around 148 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:29.519 this time. 149 00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:33.480 I mean, obviously, you know, over the years, it becomes 150 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:36.960 clear that he's a man at war. 151 00:08:36.840 --> 00:08:40.679 With himself, you know, as to his true nature and what. 152 00:08:40.840 --> 00:08:46.320 America would have expected in the early to mid nineteen sixties. 153 00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:49.320 You right, though, that he returns to Chicago a few 154 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:51.799 months later, and he rolls in college and he takes 155 00:08:51.879 --> 00:08:56.799 business courses and works in sales in nearby Springfield. He 156 00:08:56.919 --> 00:09:02.039 dresses well, he utilizes jewelry, cuff links, and he's a 157 00:09:02.080 --> 00:09:07.120 masterful fundraiser. It ends up he's organizing charity shows incredibly, 158 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:11.600 involving the band the Kinks from England. And he lived 159 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:14.279 with his aunt and uncle and that's where he met 160 00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:18.799 Marilyn Myers, a daughter, a wealthy man, businessman's daughter, and 161 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:21.879 they were married in nineteen sixty four. And you write 162 00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:25.720 around that same time, however, he had his first homosexual encounter, 163 00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:28.480 and you write that he became involved with the jc's 164 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:31.440 tell us what the JCS were for those people that 165 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:34.960 don't know what service clubs were, and what did JAC 166 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:38.759 manage it to do, and how well the JCS were, 167 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:42.039 as you say, you know, service club of the time, 168 00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:48.440 with their emphasis on young business people men, young businessmen 169 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:52.360 under forty up and comers who wanted the network make 170 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:54.639 name for them, a name for themselves. 171 00:09:54.840 --> 00:09:58.679 And do you know something charitable you know, you know 172 00:09:58.759 --> 00:10:01.480 obviously in these things, and at that time, you know, 173 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:05.480 there was a significant amount of boozing and partying involved. 174 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:08.279 And Gacy threw himself. 175 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:12.200 Fully into the JCS and saw it as a way 176 00:10:12.279 --> 00:10:16.639 to network and become bigger than he actually was. 177 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:20.679 And certainly for him it did help that he, you know, 178 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:24.200 he became very well known in the j c's. 179 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:28.200 At the same time, his father in law is wealthy 180 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:32.639 and he owns three Kentucky Fried Chicken franchises, and so 181 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:35.879 he gives this opportunity of a lifetime to his in law, 182 00:10:36.039 --> 00:10:38.639 his son in law, even though he doesn't really like 183 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:41.559 him too much, but he still wants him to manage 184 00:10:41.559 --> 00:10:45.120 his KFC restaurant in Waterloo, Iowa, and so he gives 185 00:10:45.159 --> 00:10:49.000 him the equivalent of the home and salary worth one 186 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:51.120 hundred and thirty thousand dollars today. 187 00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:54.600 You're right, yeah, And he is successful. 188 00:10:54.799 --> 00:11:00.679 He's socializing, he's organizing theme parties, he's a successful fundraiser 189 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:04.360 and works with the JCS. He knows a lot of people, 190 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:07.080 he's networking with a lot of people, and he has 191 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:10.080 a fascination with the police, as you write, and joins 192 00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:15.039 a volunteer force that just supervises businesses at night, putting, 193 00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:17.679 you know, taking the pressure off the police force, the 194 00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:20.279 real police force, as you say, but also enabled him 195 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:23.240 to get some paraphernalia in a car that sort of 196 00:11:23.279 --> 00:11:26.320 looked like a police car and a red light and siren, 197 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:28.720 so that he used in sort of a comedic bit, 198 00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:32.120 but as you write, sort of a foreshadowing of things 199 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:32.440 to come. 200 00:11:32.600 --> 00:11:36.159 Yeah, what you see in Waterloo is I think, you know, 201 00:11:36.279 --> 00:11:39.480 making that kind of money at that time and place. 202 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:43.000 You know, with a lovely young wife at home that 203 00:11:43.000 --> 00:11:45.279 that would be enough. But you see the emergence in 204 00:11:45.399 --> 00:11:49.759 Waterloo also you're not only gay Sy the monster, but 205 00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:53.440 as Gayzy the bullshit. You know, he insisted that people 206 00:11:53.559 --> 00:11:57.559 call him colonel after Colonel Harland Sanders, the founder good 207 00:11:57.600 --> 00:12:00.720 thank you, Fried Chicken, and he was a real colonel 208 00:12:00.919 --> 00:12:03.759 and which of course was a mail order sort of 209 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:06.279 thing that he sent out that says, you know, and 210 00:12:06.279 --> 00:12:08.600 that's what a Kentucky colonel is. You can send off 211 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:10.080 in the bail and say I want to be a 212 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:13.919 Kentucky colonel. And then you know he was a Kentucky colonel. 213 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:17.639 So you see the emergence of Gacy here as the 214 00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:20.600 bs or as the fabulous, and the police stuff is 215 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:23.960 also part of that. And you know he would drive 216 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:26.960 fast through the streets of Waterloo. He did that at 217 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:31.840 a at a j c's convention in Phoenix as well. 218 00:12:32.039 --> 00:12:35.039 That when he started packing a gun, and he took 219 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:41.720 the role of auxiliary police officer extremely seriously, and I 220 00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:46.320 think maybe you know, he wasn't self aware enough to 221 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:48.759 realize that what he was doing was that he was 222 00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:53.480 practicing the routine that would terrorize Chicago years later. 223 00:12:53.720 --> 00:12:57.679 You're right that he would have boys over at his 224 00:12:57.759 --> 00:13:00.200 home even when he was at this KFC, and he 225 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:03.000 would have pull let them play pool. But also at 226 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:05.759 the time, you write for people that don't know, pornography 227 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:08.440 was sort of a thing that very few people had 228 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:11.360 access to, So it was a big thing that you 229 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:14.360 might be able to entice young men to be able 230 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:17.240 to come over and watch some porn. But also he 231 00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:19.679 made he would come on to the boys and then 232 00:13:19.720 --> 00:13:22.440 if they rebuffed him, he would chalk it up to 233 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:25.639 that he was just joking. But a fellow jc's son 234 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:28.960 named Donald, who was fifteen years old, again he offered 235 00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:32.519 him to watch some porn, and the boy came over 236 00:13:32.879 --> 00:13:37.799 and he was attacked by Gasey tell us about these 237 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:41.639 May nineteen sixty eight, and just previous to this that 238 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:45.279 his father had told him, You know, son, John, I 239 00:13:45.399 --> 00:13:48.639 was wrong about you. And now May nineteen sixty eight, 240 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:51.039 and he has sodomy charges. 241 00:13:51.159 --> 00:13:54.080 Well, yeah, he was married in nineteen sixty four. 242 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:59.039 And this John Stanley Gaysey these he starts having a 243 00:13:59.799 --> 00:14:02.159 two children, a boy and a girl. And the John 244 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:05.759 Stanley Gacy, you know, this is the and his son 245 00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:07.519 is very successful. 246 00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:10.639 This is these are the fulfillment of his deepest wishes. 247 00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:16.919 And so writing around Waterloo in John Wayne Gacy's brand 248 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:20.840 new Woldsmobile, father, you'll finally admit. So you know, while 249 00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:24.080 John I was I was wrong about you, and he 250 00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:28.360 basically apologized. Then they talked about many things and whatnot. 251 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:32.759 But that man's a lot to Gacy at the time, 252 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:36.399 but not enough for him to sail straight. I mean, 253 00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:40.200 unbeknownst to everybody, he would have these boys over. 254 00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:44.799 As you say. And one fellow j CES member Gacy 255 00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:48.039 sawm out on the street when after the boy and 256 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:50.840 had an argument with his father or something like that, 257 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:54.399 and Gacy, you know, came off like big brother, you know, 258 00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:55.240 getting the car. 259 00:14:55.480 --> 00:14:58.559 Your dad's all right, you know, And then he got 260 00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:01.919 out the booze and the porn and one thing led 261 00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:02.600 to another. 262 00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:06.399 But the kid flipped it on gay Sy and starts 263 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:11.000 blackmailing him and Gaysey of courners doesn't like this at all, 264 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:16.159 because at this point too, he's making plans, mulling going 265 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:19.559 into politics, because this is something that he's developed an 266 00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:22.960 interest in. And you know the only thing that he 267 00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:26.399 still remained at odds with with his father, who's staunch Republican. 268 00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:28.039 Gacy was a Democrat. 269 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:33.000 But Gacy at this time, you know, he's seriously considering 270 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:36.919 running for counsel and then maybe Beyer and then maybe 271 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:41.519 Congress and Waterloo, Iowa. Well, here's this kid who he's 272 00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:44.840 paying off and buying guitars for and different things like that, 273 00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:48.919 who's going to ruin everything? And you know it pretty 274 00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:53.840 much does police arrest Gaysy and then it comes out, 275 00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:59.320 other incidents come out and Gacy pulled everyone he was innocent, 276 00:15:59.480 --> 00:16:04.360 and a lot of people believed him until the jury 277 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:06.240 came back with the guilty verdict. 278 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:08.840 You know, people found it very difficult to believe, and 279 00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:13.120 you know, you look around and read and talk to 280 00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:15.799 people and whatnot. You know, there's a lot of people 281 00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:18.840 that are still in shock that the gay cy Day 282 00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:20.679 knew was this monster. 283 00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:24.080 It's interesting too, at that point that another person comes 284 00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:27.720 forward with another complaint. Shortly after that, Mark Miller and 285 00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:30.600 he had worked at the KFC and that he was 286 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:34.720 attacked and Gasey let him go, and so he hired 287 00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:37.960 someone as Dwight Anderson, another worker, to beat up Miller 288 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:41.840 for three hundred dollars. And then this Dwight Anderson eventually 289 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:44.720 told police that, well, Gasey hired me to beat up 290 00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:48.480 this guy. So then now he needs a psychiatric evaluation. 291 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:53.720 And at that time he's diagnosed with antisocial personality. But 292 00:16:53.799 --> 00:16:58.159 he still denies any responsibility for anything. These people, these 293 00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:03.279 boys say whatsoever. And the judge he thinks he might 294 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:05.640 get a reasonable lenient sentence. 295 00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:08.559 However, the judge gives him a ten year sentence, doesn't he. 296 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:12.440 Yeah, he sends away Gaycy for ten years, which I 297 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:17.640 mean shocked everyone, you know, certainly certainly had shocked John 298 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:22.359 Wayne Gacy. But Gacy Gasey turns out, he gets thrown 299 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:26.640 into the you know, Iowa State prison. But you know Dacy, 300 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:31.000 as is his nature or was his nature, you know, 301 00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:34.400 he would take lemons and turn them into the lemonade. 302 00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:39.240 And so he becomes you know, the head cook model prisoner. 303 00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:43.720 He establishes a jc's chapter of all Bloody Things in 304 00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:47.799 the Slammer, which you know, is packed with people, and 305 00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:52.000 you know, he arranges for the construction of a mini 306 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:56.720 put of course in the prison grounds, so he's nobody 307 00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:59.759 really knows too much about what Gasey got up to 308 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:00.960 her why he's there. 309 00:18:01.039 --> 00:18:02.960 But he becomes a model prisoner. 310 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:07.400 And it was during this time, I think Christmas Day 311 00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:12.240 nineteen sixty nine, that is that John Stanley Gacy eyed. 312 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:13.799 Isn't clear. 313 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:17.839 I'm not sure whether it was cirrhosis or a heart attack, 314 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:19.480 but he dies. 315 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:24.640 John Stanley Gacy dies. Gaysey desperately wants to go to 316 00:18:24.680 --> 00:18:28.640 the funeral, but that idea is torpedoed, which is, you know, 317 00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:31.799 interesting enough, because he hadn't been in that long. I 318 00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:34.680 think probably a year later they would have let him go. 319 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:38.480 But he gets sprung. He doesn't get sprung for his 320 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:42.960 father's funeral, but he isn't in jail very long. 321 00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:45.599 I mean, as I said, he makes the best, the 322 00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:48.119 absolute best of the situation. 323 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:51.599 And you know, those were times. 324 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:55.839 You know that during that time, America was taking a 325 00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:59.440 look at the justice system on how harsh penalties were. 326 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:03.680 The culmination of it was the suspension of the death 327 00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:08.799 penalty in nineteen seventy two, and easy benefited from this, 328 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:11.680 and I think out of a ten year sentence, I 329 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:14.160 think he served three years. 330 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:15.200 Yeah, even less. 331 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:19.519 He is parole June nineteen seventy, and his father in 332 00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:20.480 law is appalled. 333 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:22.799 You write that he was out so soon, but. 334 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:26.720 He's offered a job in Iowa, but he says, well, 335 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:29.119 I'll be back to Waterloo but in a few days. 336 00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:29.799 But he never moves. 337 00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:31.880 He never comes back, and he moves in with his 338 00:19:31.960 --> 00:19:35.240 mother and he gets a job at a restaurant and 339 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:38.920 starts becoming successful. At the same time, you write about 340 00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:42.640 the seventies and the sort of social scene that went 341 00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:46.039 on at that time, and people did risky behavior what 342 00:19:46.119 --> 00:19:50.240 we would consider risky now, hitchhiking, and so there was 343 00:19:50.279 --> 00:19:54.839 a pickup scene and the sexual mores were. 344 00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:58.119 Lightened, and so people. It was a different time, wasn't it. 345 00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:01.880 And meeting people and picking out people, especially the people 346 00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:05.599 that Gacy targeted, was easy at that time. 347 00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:09.440 Well, yeah, and what I mean, you know, young young 348 00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:12.799 America was on the move and they were hitchhiking, which 349 00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:14.920 I mean, when's the last time you saw hitch shaking? 350 00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:18.279 Now you know, they were hit shiking. They were taking 351 00:20:18.359 --> 00:20:22.319 buses and trains and that, so you know, kids were 352 00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:25.880 running away all the time then in a way you 353 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:29.319 don't you know, really see now, and they were hitting 354 00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:32.440 the road. And one of the you know, east west 355 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:37.559 north south depots was the Greyhound station in Chicago, which 356 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:41.920 was opened, you know, not twenty years before as a 357 00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:43.440 model of the. 358 00:20:43.319 --> 00:20:46.680 Modern bus terminal, but you know had since gone the 359 00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:51.039 seed with prostitutes and drugs and you know, rugbies and. 360 00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:54.039 That sort of stuff. So it's a fairly CD scene, 361 00:20:54.119 --> 00:20:58.799 but these were people. The people that would often become 362 00:20:58.920 --> 00:21:02.680 targets at John Wayne Gacy were what one expert calls 363 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:07.519 the missing missing, right because you can't report somebody. 364 00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:09.759 Missing if you don't know they're missing. So if you 365 00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:12.519 don't even know they're missing, you know who's going to 366 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:16.599 miss them. And obviously, you know, record keeping and things 367 00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:20.119 like that at that time were you know, was significantly 368 00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:25.039 less body. So that provided Gaisy with a target rich environment, 369 00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:29.559 you know, easy you know, easy hunting grounds, you know 370 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:33.039 in Chicago, and to be frank through you know, on 371 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:36.119 the highways and byways of the country. You know that 372 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:38.519 you know, anytime you saw a young man with a 373 00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:41.759 thumb out, you know it was he was a target. 374 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:44.599 You're right, that there were complaints though from somebody that 375 00:21:44.680 --> 00:21:47.759 he did pick up nineteen seventy one in February, but 376 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:51.200 when cops questioned Gasey, he had the answers and said 377 00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:52.319 they're always just trying. 378 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:54.480 To blackmail me. Those charges were dropped. 379 00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:56.880 His mother lent them the money to buy a house 380 00:21:57.279 --> 00:22:01.599 and the infamous eight two one three Summerdale Avenue in 381 00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:04.599 Cook County bought the house and his mom moved in, 382 00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:09.079 and soon after the recently divorced Carol Hoff moved in 383 00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:12.160 with her due daughters and moved in. But you're right 384 00:22:12.279 --> 00:22:15.640 that everything looked great. He was great to the daughters. 385 00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:19.640 He was thought that he had bowled her over, he 386 00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:22.920 had swept her away. And yet January second, nineteen seventy 387 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:26.640 two Greyhound bus boy murder. He killed for the first 388 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:32.359 time soon after January second, nineteen seventy two, Timothy Jack McCoy. 389 00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:37.279 Timothy McCoy was as I just said, he was on 390 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:42.400 his way from relatives in Michigan. I believe home to Omaha, Nebraska, 391 00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:48.839 and the killing was actually by accident, but Gacy picked 392 00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:52.920 him up at the greyhound terminal in Chicago took him 393 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:53.759 back to the house. 394 00:22:53.799 --> 00:22:56.599 I'm not sure where Marion Gacy, his mother was, but 395 00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:01.359 took him back to the house in the and you know, 396 00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:03.799 with the offer of a warm bed, we'll put you 397 00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:06.920 back on the bus in the morning sort of thing. Well, 398 00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:13.279 they you know, they ended up having having sex. Now, Gacy, 399 00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:18.359 the kid was making Gasey thought he was threatening him, 400 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:22.039 and the kid was making breakfast standing there with a knife, 401 00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:24.920