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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 5: host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening.
Speaker 6: Brad Hunter has spent over thirty years writing about some
Speaker 6: of America's more horrific crimes. In this new book, he
Speaker 6: enters the mind of John Wayne Gacy, the real life
Speaker 6: killer clown often said to be the inspiration for Stephen
Speaker 6: King's evil Pennywise. In it, Gaycy lured victims to his
Speaker 6: home with the promise of work or a warm bed,
Speaker 6: and then duped them into putting on handcuffs, claiming he
Speaker 6: wanted to show them a magic trick. He would then
Speaker 6: rape and torture his victims before killing them by suffocating
Speaker 6: or strangling them. Twenty six were buried in the krawl
Speaker 6: space beneath his home. Others were buried elsewhere on his property,
Speaker 6: while a handful were dumped into the plains River. Gaysey
Speaker 6: was executed for his crimes in nineteen ninety four, but
Speaker 6: many questions remained unanswered. How many victims were there, did
Speaker 6: Gaysey act alone? And what drove John Wayne Gaysey to murder?
Speaker 6: What caused the seemingly normal Gaysey to sexually assault, torture
Speaker 6: and murder at least thirty three.
Speaker 1: Young men and boys.
Speaker 6: Drawing on his many years experience investigating and interviewing perpetrators
Speaker 6: of terrible crimes, Hunter seeks to understand what drove Gaysey
Speaker 6: to unleash a reign of terror in suburban Chicago. The
Speaker 6: book they were featuring this evening is Inside the Mind
Speaker 6: of John Wayne Gacy, The Real Life Killer, with my
Speaker 6: special guest, journalist and author, Brad Hunter. Welcome to the program,
Speaker 6: and thank you very much for this interview. Brad Hunter,
Speaker 6: good to be here, Dan, thanks for having me. Thank
Speaker 6: you so much and very timely to have something about
Speaker 6: John Wayne Gacy, something new for people to read.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for this interview.
Speaker 6: Let's start right away with John Wayne Gacy. His father,
Speaker 6: John Stanley Gacy, and he was in.
Speaker 3: World War One.
Speaker 6: Tell us about John Stanley Gacy before he entered the
Speaker 6: war and what happened, and.
Speaker 1: What was he like when he returned.
Speaker 7: Well, people said that John Stanley Gacy was a fairly
Speaker 7: normal guy. He's quite a bright guy, fairly industrious and
Speaker 7: with even tempered before he went off to the killing
Speaker 7: fields of Europe in the First World War, you know,
Speaker 7: and listed and was sent overseas and reportedly saw a
Speaker 7: significant amount of cournage while he was fighting on the
Speaker 7: Western Front. When he returns to America, he is, you know,
Speaker 7: as many people are who endure that kind of horror.
Speaker 7: You know, he was a changed man, shorter tempered, and
Speaker 7: just not as pleasant as he had been.
Speaker 6: You talk about alcoholism though, that plagued that marriage, and
Speaker 6: he was characterized as being quite abusive and was haunted
Speaker 6: by his time in World War One.
Speaker 7: Yeah, well pretty much pretty much every evening. I mean
Speaker 7: he married fairly late, but for the time anyways.
Speaker 3: But you know, every evening he.
Speaker 7: Would go into the basement of his nice neat home
Speaker 7: in Chicago and get blasted. And you know, down would
Speaker 7: go a reasonably normal scene person, and up would become
Speaker 7: a monster. I mean, John Wayne Acy himself, you know,
Speaker 7: would see you know, I had seen his mother slugged
Speaker 7: around by John Stanley and her dentures flying through the air,
Speaker 7: and that was also something that you know, he bore
Speaker 7: the brunt of as well, and obviously it.
Speaker 3: Played some role in the development of his character.
Speaker 6: You write that early on he was sickly, had a
Speaker 6: heart condition, and so he was told not to participate
Speaker 6: in any sports at school whatsoever. And some of the
Speaker 6: things that he was drawn to were in opposition to
Speaker 6: what his father thought was a masculine thing to do.
Speaker 1: Can you explain, Yeah.
Speaker 7: Well, I mean, I think John Stanley Gacy's view of
Speaker 7: manhood was significantly different than what we might see today.
Speaker 3: He named John John.
Speaker 7: Wayne after the movie star whose famous tough guy and swashbuckling,
Speaker 7: even though he didn't serve in the war. But yeah,
Speaker 7: so he had his image of manliness, whereas his son,
Speaker 7: his only son, was interested in baking and hanging around
Speaker 7: with his mothers and sisters and being in the kitchen
Speaker 7: and sewing and things like that, things that in the
Speaker 7: nineteen forties America that wouldn't have been necessarily seen as
Speaker 7: the way to go, particularly as him being a sickly
Speaker 7: child and less than robust his father. And I would
Speaker 7: certainly say probably a large part due to his boozing.
Speaker 7: Would he would you know, sit and stew about his
Speaker 7: son down in the basement. He'd come up and he'd,
Speaker 7: you know, he'd hit him at Casey, you know, got
Speaker 7: cop wearing his mother's clothes, you know, once and for
Speaker 7: a number of times, and that, of course, you know,
Speaker 7: needless to say, didn't fly well.
Speaker 3: And you know he you know, point blank, you know,
Speaker 3: called the mississi and any other epithet that you know
Speaker 3: may target his masculinity.
Speaker 6: You right too, that he was plagued by passing out
Speaker 6: or fame, and his father thought he was just a
Speaker 6: hypochondriact and didn't add to his masculinity whatsoever.
Speaker 1: So when he was twenty years old in.
Speaker 6: Nineteen sixty two, you're right, did he took off to
Speaker 6: Las Vegas.
Speaker 1: He knew he had a cousin there.
Speaker 6: But even there he passed out in his car overheated
Speaker 6: and was taken to the hospital. However, he did find
Speaker 6: work there, and he did find his cousin who was
Speaker 6: a prostitute, and so he did find out a life
Speaker 6: outside the one from his own oppressive family, and even
Speaker 6: got a job there for a time at a mortuary,
Speaker 6: and did experience something sexual as a result at that morgue.
Speaker 3: As you write, yeah, Gaycy.
Speaker 7: Got a job at a moorg He lived with his
Speaker 7: cousin for a while as a hooker.
Speaker 3: Cousin for a while in Vegas said he.
Speaker 7: Got a job at a morgue, and one evening he
Speaker 7: was I can't remember whether he was sleeping there or
Speaker 7: whether he was working there, sleeping overnight there he crawled
Speaker 7: into the casket of a young man who'd been killed
Speaker 7: in an accident and was sexually excited acy himself. Leader
Speaker 7: said that he was sexually excited by the incident, and
Speaker 7: you know, that seems to be putting him, you know,
Speaker 7: starting to be putting on the path.
Speaker 3: I don't know, you know, too many twenty year olds
Speaker 3: who want to climb to the casket with a dead
Speaker 3: body for sexual reasons. So, yeah, he gets going around
Speaker 3: this time.
Speaker 7: I mean, obviously, you know, over the years, it becomes
Speaker 7: clear that he's a man at war.
Speaker 3: With himself, you know, as to his true nature and what.
Speaker 7: America would have expected in the early to mid nineteen sixties.
Speaker 6: You right, though, that he returns to Chicago a few
Speaker 6: months later, and he rolls in college and he takes
Speaker 6: business courses and works in sales in nearby Springfield. He
Speaker 6: dresses well, he utilizes jewelry, cuff links, and he's a
Speaker 6: masterful fundraiser. It ends up he's organizing charity shows incredibly,
Speaker 6: involving the band the Kinks from England. And he lived
Speaker 6: with his aunt and uncle and that's where he met
Speaker 6: Marilyn Myers, a daughter, a wealthy man, businessman's daughter, and
Speaker 6: they were married in nineteen sixty four. And you write
Speaker 6: around that same time, however, he had his first homosexual encounter,
Speaker 6: and you write that he became involved with the jc's
Speaker 6: tell us what the JCS were for those people that
Speaker 6: don't know what service clubs were, and what did JAC
Speaker 6: manage it to do, and how well the JCS were,
Speaker 6: as you say, you know, service club of the time,
Speaker 6: with their emphasis on young business people men, young businessmen
Speaker 6: under forty up and comers who wanted the network make
Speaker 6: name for them, a name for themselves.
Speaker 7: And do you know something charitable you know, you know
Speaker 7: obviously in these things, and at that time, you know,
Speaker 7: there was a significant amount of boozing and partying involved.
Speaker 7: And Gacy threw himself.
Speaker 3: Fully into the JCS and saw it as a way
Speaker 3: to network and become bigger than he actually was.
Speaker 7: And certainly for him it did help that he, you know,
Speaker 7: he became very well known in the j c's.
Speaker 6: At the same time, his father in law is wealthy
Speaker 6: and he owns three Kentucky Fried Chicken franchises, and so
Speaker 6: he gives this opportunity of a lifetime to his in law,
Speaker 6: his son in law, even though he doesn't really like
Speaker 6: him too much, but he still wants him to manage
Speaker 6: his KFC restaurant in Waterloo, Iowa, and so he gives
Speaker 6: him the equivalent of the home and salary worth one
Speaker 6: hundred and thirty thousand dollars today.
Speaker 1: You're right, yeah, And he is successful.
Speaker 6: He's socializing, he's organizing theme parties, he's a successful fundraiser
Speaker 6: and works with the JCS. He knows a lot of people,
Speaker 6: he's networking with a lot of people, and he has
Speaker 6: a fascination with the police, as you write, and joins
Speaker 6: a volunteer force that just supervises businesses at night, putting,
Speaker 6: you know, taking the pressure off the police force, the
Speaker 6: real police force, as you say, but also enabled him
Speaker 6: to get some paraphernalia in a car that sort of
Speaker 6: looked like a police car and a red light and siren,
Speaker 6: so that he used in sort of a comedic bit,
Speaker 6: but as you write, sort of a foreshadowing of things
Speaker 6: to come.
Speaker 7: Yeah, what you see in Waterloo is I think, you know,
Speaker 7: making that kind of money at that time and place.
Speaker 7: You know, with a lovely young wife at home that
Speaker 7: that would be enough. But you see the emergence in
Speaker 7: Waterloo also you're not only gay Sy the monster, but
Speaker 7: as Gayzy the bullshit. You know, he insisted that people
Speaker 7: call him colonel after Colonel Harland Sanders, the founder good
Speaker 7: thank you, Fried Chicken, and he was a real colonel
Speaker 7: and which of course was a mail order sort of
Speaker 7: thing that he sent out that says, you know, and
Speaker 7: that's what a Kentucky colonel is. You can send off
Speaker 7: in the bail and say I want to be a
Speaker 7: Kentucky colonel. And then you know he was a Kentucky colonel.
Speaker 7: So you see the emergence of Gacy here as the
Speaker 7: bs or as the fabulous, and the police stuff is
Speaker 7: also part of that. And you know he would drive
Speaker 7: fast through the streets of Waterloo. He did that at
Speaker 7: a at a j c's convention in Phoenix as well.
Speaker 7: That when he started packing a gun, and he took
Speaker 7: the role of auxiliary police officer extremely seriously, and I
Speaker 7: think maybe you know, he wasn't self aware enough to
Speaker 7: realize that what he was doing was that he was
Speaker 7: practicing the routine that would terrorize Chicago years later.
Speaker 6: You're right that he would have boys over at his
Speaker 6: home even when he was at this KFC, and he
Speaker 6: would have pull let them play pool. But also at
Speaker 6: the time, you write for people that don't know, pornography
Speaker 6: was sort of a thing that very few people had
Speaker 6: access to, So it was a big thing that you
Speaker 6: might be able to entice young men to be able
Speaker 6: to come over and watch some porn. But also he
Speaker 6: made he would come on to the boys and then
Speaker 6: if they rebuffed him, he would chalk it up to
Speaker 6: that he was just joking. But a fellow jc's son
Speaker 6: named Donald, who was fifteen years old, again he offered
Speaker 6: him to watch some porn, and the boy came over
Speaker 6: and he was attacked by Gasey tell us about these
Speaker 6: May nineteen sixty eight, and just previous to this that
Speaker 6: his father had told him, You know, son, John, I
Speaker 6: was wrong about you. And now May nineteen sixty eight,
Speaker 6: and he has sodomy charges.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, he was married in nineteen sixty four.
Speaker 7: And this John Stanley Gaysey these he starts having a
Speaker 7: two children, a boy and a girl. And the John
Speaker 7: Stanley Gacy, you know, this is the and his son
Speaker 7: is very successful.
Speaker 3: This is these are the fulfillment of his deepest wishes.
Speaker 7: And so writing around Waterloo in John Wayne Gacy's brand
Speaker 7: new Woldsmobile, father, you'll finally admit. So you know, while
Speaker 7: John I was I was wrong about you, and he
Speaker 7: basically apologized. Then they talked about many things and whatnot.
Speaker 7: But that man's a lot to Gacy at the time,
Speaker 7: but not enough for him to sail straight. I mean,
Speaker 7: unbeknownst to everybody, he would have these boys over.
Speaker 3: As you say. And one fellow j CES member Gacy
Speaker 3: sawm out on the street when after the boy and
Speaker 3: had an argument with his father or something like that,
Speaker 3: and Gacy, you know, came off like big brother, you know,
Speaker 3: getting the car.
Speaker 7: Your dad's all right, you know, And then he got
Speaker 7: out the booze and the porn and one thing led
Speaker 7: to another.
Speaker 3: But the kid flipped it on gay Sy and starts
Speaker 3: blackmailing him and Gaysey of courners doesn't like this at all,
Speaker 3: because at this point too, he's making plans, mulling going
Speaker 3: into politics, because this is something that he's developed an
Speaker 3: interest in. And you know the only thing that he
Speaker 3: still remained at odds with with his father, who's staunch Republican.
Speaker 3: Gacy was a Democrat.
Speaker 7: But Gacy at this time, you know, he's seriously considering
Speaker 7: running for counsel and then maybe Beyer and then maybe
Speaker 7: Congress and Waterloo, Iowa. Well, here's this kid who he's
Speaker 7: paying off and buying guitars for and different things like that,
Speaker 7: who's going to ruin everything? And you know it pretty
Speaker 7: much does police arrest Gaysy and then it comes out,
Speaker 7: other incidents come out and Gacy pulled everyone he was innocent,
Speaker 7: and a lot of people believed him until the jury
Speaker 7: came back with the guilty verdict.
Speaker 3: You know, people found it very difficult to believe, and
Speaker 3: you know, you look around and read and talk to
Speaker 3: people and whatnot. You know, there's a lot of people
Speaker 3: that are still in shock that the gay cy Day
Speaker 3: knew was this monster.
Speaker 6: It's interesting too, at that point that another person comes
Speaker 6: forward with another complaint. Shortly after that, Mark Miller and
Speaker 6: he had worked at the KFC and that he was
Speaker 6: attacked and Gasey let him go, and so he hired
Speaker 6: someone as Dwight Anderson, another worker, to beat up Miller
Speaker 6: for three hundred dollars. And then this Dwight Anderson eventually
Speaker 6: told police that, well, Gasey hired me to beat up
Speaker 6: this guy. So then now he needs a psychiatric evaluation.
Speaker 6: And at that time he's diagnosed with antisocial personality. But
Speaker 6: he still denies any responsibility for anything. These people, these
Speaker 6: boys say whatsoever. And the judge he thinks he might
Speaker 6: get a reasonable lenient sentence.
Speaker 1: However, the judge gives him a ten year sentence, doesn't he.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he sends away Gaycy for ten years, which I
Speaker 3: mean shocked everyone, you know, certainly certainly had shocked John
Speaker 3: Wayne Gacy. But Gacy Gasey turns out, he gets thrown
Speaker 3: into the you know, Iowa State prison. But you know Dacy,
Speaker 3: as is his nature or was his nature, you know,
Speaker 3: he would take lemons and turn them into the lemonade.
Speaker 3: And so he becomes you know, the head cook model prisoner.
Speaker 7: He establishes a jc's chapter of all Bloody Things in
Speaker 7: the Slammer, which you know, is packed with people, and
Speaker 7: you know, he arranges for the construction of a mini
Speaker 7: put of course in the prison grounds, so he's nobody
Speaker 7: really knows too much about what Gasey got up to
Speaker 7: her why he's there.
Speaker 3: But he becomes a model prisoner.
Speaker 7: And it was during this time, I think Christmas Day
Speaker 7: nineteen sixty nine, that is that John Stanley Gacy eyed.
Speaker 3: Isn't clear.
Speaker 7: I'm not sure whether it was cirrhosis or a heart attack,
Speaker 7: but he dies.
Speaker 3: John Stanley Gacy dies. Gaysey desperately wants to go to
Speaker 3: the funeral, but that idea is torpedoed, which is, you know,
Speaker 3: interesting enough, because he hadn't been in that long. I
Speaker 3: think probably a year later they would have let him go.
Speaker 3: But he gets sprung. He doesn't get sprung for his
Speaker 3: father's funeral, but he isn't in jail very long.
Speaker 7: I mean, as I said, he makes the best, the
Speaker 7: absolute best of the situation.
Speaker 3: And you know, those were times.
Speaker 7: You know that during that time, America was taking a
Speaker 7: look at the justice system on how harsh penalties were.
Speaker 7: The culmination of it was the suspension of the death
Speaker 7: penalty in nineteen seventy two, and easy benefited from this,
Speaker 7: and I think out of a ten year sentence, I
Speaker 7: think he served three years.
Speaker 1: Yeah, even less.
Speaker 6: He is parole June nineteen seventy, and his father in
Speaker 6: law is appalled.
Speaker 1: You write that he was out so soon, but.
Speaker 6: He's offered a job in Iowa, but he says, well,
Speaker 6: I'll be back to Waterloo but in a few days.
Speaker 1: But he never moves.
Speaker 6: He never comes back, and he moves in with his
Speaker 6: mother and he gets a job at a restaurant and
Speaker 6: starts becoming successful. At the same time, you write about
Speaker 6: the seventies and the sort of social scene that went
Speaker 6: on at that time, and people did risky behavior what
Speaker 6: we would consider risky now, hitchhiking, and so there was
Speaker 6: a pickup scene and the sexual mores were.
Speaker 1: Lightened, and so people. It was a different time, wasn't it.
Speaker 6: And meeting people and picking out people, especially the people
Speaker 6: that Gacy targeted, was easy at that time.
Speaker 7: Well, yeah, and what I mean, you know, young young
Speaker 7: America was on the move and they were hitchhiking, which
Speaker 7: I mean, when's the last time you saw hitch shaking?
Speaker 3: Now you know, they were hit shiking. They were taking
Speaker 3: buses and trains and that, so you know, kids were
Speaker 3: running away all the time then in a way you
Speaker 3: don't you know, really see now, and they were hitting
Speaker 3: the road. And one of the you know, east west
Speaker 3: north south depots was the Greyhound station in Chicago, which
Speaker 3: was opened, you know, not twenty years before as a
Speaker 3: model of the.
Speaker 7: Modern bus terminal, but you know had since gone the
Speaker 7: seed with prostitutes and drugs and you know, rugbies and.
Speaker 3: That sort of stuff. So it's a fairly CD scene,
Speaker 3: but these were people. The people that would often become
Speaker 3: targets at John Wayne Gacy were what one expert calls
Speaker 3: the missing missing, right because you can't report somebody.
Speaker 7: Missing if you don't know they're missing. So if you
Speaker 7: don't even know they're missing, you know who's going to
Speaker 7: miss them. And obviously, you know, record keeping and things
Speaker 7: like that at that time were you know, was significantly
Speaker 7: less body. So that provided Gaisy with a target rich environment,
Speaker 7: you know, easy you know, easy hunting grounds, you know
Speaker 7: in Chicago, and to be frank through you know, on
Speaker 7: the highways and byways of the country. You know that
Speaker 7: you know, anytime you saw a young man with a
Speaker 7: thumb out, you know it was he was a target.
Speaker 6: You're right, that there were complaints though from somebody that
Speaker 6: he did pick up nineteen seventy one in February, but
Speaker 6: when cops questioned Gasey, he had the answers and said
Speaker 6: they're always just trying.
Speaker 1: To blackmail me. Those charges were dropped.
Speaker 6: His mother lent them the money to buy a house
Speaker 6: and the infamous eight two one three Summerdale Avenue in
Speaker 6: Cook County bought the house and his mom moved in,
Speaker 6: and soon after the recently divorced Carol Hoff moved in
Speaker 6: with her due daughters and moved in. But you're right
Speaker 6: that everything looked great. He was great to the daughters.
Speaker 6: He was thought that he had bowled her over, he
Speaker 6: had swept her away. And yet January second, nineteen seventy
Speaker 6: two Greyhound bus boy murder. He killed for the first
Speaker 6: time soon after January second, nineteen seventy two, Timothy Jack McCoy.
Speaker 3: Timothy McCoy was as I just said, he was on
Speaker 3: his way from relatives in Michigan. I believe home to Omaha, Nebraska,
Speaker 3: and the killing was actually by accident, but Gacy picked
Speaker 3: him up at the greyhound terminal in Chicago took him
Speaker 3: back to the house.
Speaker 7: I'm not sure where Marion Gacy, his mother was, but
Speaker 7: took him back to the house in the and you know,
Speaker 7: with the offer of a warm bed, we'll put you
Speaker 7: back on the bus in the morning sort of thing. Well,
Speaker 7: they you know, they ended up having having sex. Now, Gacy,
Speaker 7: the kid was making Gasey thought he was threatening him,
Speaker 7: and the kid was making breakfast standing there with a knife,
Speaker 7: and that's what you know, the kid was doing, and
Speaker 7: Gasey attacked him and stabbed him to I don't think
Speaker 7: that necessarily his you know, intention when he picked up
Speaker 7: the boy in the bus station was to murder him
Speaker 7: about you know, obviously he wanted to have sex with him,
Speaker 7: but he didn't that murder wasn't his mind.
Speaker 3: And he stabs.
Speaker 7: Him to death and he has an explosive orgasm. It's
Speaker 7: the you know, as Gaycy later said, it was the
Speaker 7: biggest turn on in his.
Speaker 3: Life and that set him on the path to homicide.
Speaker 6: You right, that that's when he said, quote, I realized
Speaker 6: that death was the ultimate thrill. Let's use this as
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Speaker 6: that now John Wayne Gacy knew that death was the
Speaker 6: ultimate thrill. At the same time, his marriage was suffering,
Speaker 6: and you write about what his wife said in terms
Speaker 6: of their love life.
Speaker 3: She was starting to figure out what Gacy was up to,
Speaker 3: not you know, not long after, you know, after about
Speaker 3: six months, you know, she was finding you know, gay
Speaker 3: you know, pornography around the house and hidden and things
Speaker 3: like that, and Gacy's you know, nocturnal activities. He would
Speaker 3: often leave the house at night and not come back
Speaker 3: till sun up. And of course, you know he was
Speaker 3: at that time, he was cruising for you know, for
Speaker 3: for young men. And on the Mother's Day, I'm not
Speaker 3: sure what you're at seventy four, maybe he you know,
Speaker 3: she told he told her that he was never going
Speaker 3: to have sex with her again, and that was that
Speaker 3: was it.
Speaker 7: And so you know, she I think hung on. Carol
Speaker 7: Hoff hung on for a while. Who's you know, by
Speaker 7: all descriptions a lovely woman. She you know, hung on
Speaker 7: for a while, but it just wasn't working for her,
Speaker 7: and there were parts of the house she wasn't allowed
Speaker 7: to attend. She wasn't allowed to go into the infamous
Speaker 7: crawl space, or the garage and or his office. And
Speaker 7: you know, by this time, Gacy's homicidal pension was starting
Speaker 7: to get rolling, and she would sometimes leave the house
Speaker 7: or go visit her parents, eat two daughters with her,
Speaker 7: or she would they would go and visit Acy's mother,
Speaker 7: who by this time had moved to Arizona to be
Speaker 7: with her one daughter, Gacy's sister. And it was during
Speaker 7: his times that Gacy, for lack of a better word,
Speaker 7: let his freak flag fly.
Speaker 6: You write that he built this contracting company called PDM,
Speaker 6: and he bragged to other people that he had a
Speaker 6: teen a workforce that was very, very cheap, and that's
Speaker 6: why he employed them. At the same time, you write
Speaker 6: about his wife catching on to what was going on.
Speaker 6: So there was times when the wife and kids were away,
Speaker 6: and one time young is still identified person fourteen to
Speaker 6: eighteen year old was tortured, raped and strang angled and
Speaker 6: was stuffed in a storage closet and Gasey noticed that
Speaker 6: there was liquids leaping from this victim's mouth, and so
Speaker 6: from then on he decided to put either the briefs
Speaker 6: or a sock or a rag in the victim's mouths.
Speaker 6: Around this time, as well, with his work with the
Speaker 6: jc's led him to working or volunteering with the Moose Lodge,
Speaker 6: another service club. He found out about that there was
Speaker 6: a fundraising element to the Moose Lodge and this was
Speaker 6: something with a clown.
Speaker 1: So he became a clown and had.
Speaker 6: A couple personas Pogol the clown and patches and start
Speaker 6: doing fundraising in clown costume. This also led to some
Speaker 6: of the things that we now learned that he bragged about,
Speaker 6: also the rope trick and the handcuff trick.
Speaker 7: Yeah that's right, I mean Gaysey for Gayezy. Clowning, he
Speaker 7: later said, became a therapeutic where he could get out
Speaker 7: of himself and there was a bizarre level of sincerity
Speaker 7: about doing good works. He would later talk.
Speaker 3: To the detectives about the bodies under his house, you know,
Speaker 3: as if those boys were nothing, and then be sobbing
Speaker 3: about some kid that was in the hospital sick that
Speaker 3: he'd met well in his persona as Bogo just to
Speaker 3: be clear, Pogo was the friendly clown. Patches was the
Speaker 3: sad clown, you know, the good and evil, the ying
Speaker 3: and yang. But yeah, he so he embraces this and
Speaker 3: and through also through the JCS.
Speaker 7: You know, he meets a man who hooks him up
Speaker 7: with the Chicago's.
Speaker 3: I guess, for lack of a better word, notorious and
Speaker 3: powerful democratic machine.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, well this is going He finally or she
Speaker 6: divorces him. His wife divorces him, and so people, neighbors
Speaker 6: especially comment that there is a a dramatic difference in
Speaker 6: John Wayne Gacy after this divorce, meaning they see him
Speaker 6: at all hours of the night, boys coming and going.
Speaker 6: And also one neighbor noted, as you write that start
Speaker 6: hearing screams and shouts and all kinds of strange noises
Speaker 6: in the middle of the evening.
Speaker 3: Well Gacy went. From the time he moved into the house,
Speaker 3: he had been on a term offensive with that, you know,
Speaker 3: as he often did, you know, to the point of
Speaker 3: coining sometimes with his neighbors. And his neighbors liked him
Speaker 3: a lot.
Speaker 7: He would play cards with them, he'd throw big parties
Speaker 7: and barbecues on the street, and so they quite liked him,
Speaker 7: but there was, you know, for starters, there were the
Speaker 7: periodic screams, and then there was the horrendous stench coming
Speaker 7: from underneath his house, which he always put down to
Speaker 7: burst sewer pipes and the like, but that was also
Speaker 7: becoming noticeable. But because they liked them so much, they
Speaker 7: never put anything down to it. I mean, I think
Speaker 7: when retrospect the two plus two plus two equals six.
Speaker 7: But they just, you know, weren't capable of doing that addition,
Speaker 7: because who particular at that time, who deals who deals
Speaker 7: with somebody like John Wayne Gaesk, you know, I mean,
Speaker 7: that's not not to be good.
Speaker 3: But a domestic homicide is one thing, a serial killer next,
Speaker 3: whereas you know, quite another.
Speaker 6: So seventy six you write that things he has a
Speaker 6: break from seventy he kills it first. In seventy two
Speaker 6: you write, and then seventy five he starts. Seventy six
Speaker 6: is a very very busy year for him and wracks
Speaker 6: up an incredible body count. But at the same time,
Speaker 6: there are several incidents where people get away, people have complaints,
Speaker 6: There are there are opportunities, it seems, for the police
Speaker 6: to intervene. But there are people that when they're missing
Speaker 6: person's report. Do you have at least one or two
Speaker 6: parents where they were told? One parent was told because
Speaker 6: it was out of one jurisdiction, they couldn't deal with it.
Speaker 1: And when they went to that other.
Speaker 6: Jurisdiction, they said, well you'll have to go back to
Speaker 6: that original jurisdiction. Nobody would file that missing person's report.
Speaker 6: And the others were told, look at likely they're going
Speaker 6: to be a runaway, and they were treated like runaways,
Speaker 6: these missing people along this route this path.
Speaker 7: Well, yeah, and the other thing is is about that
Speaker 7: dan is where you know who these victims were. They
Speaker 7: were from an area called Uptown, and many of them
Speaker 7: were from an area called Uptown in Chicago in addition
Speaker 7: to you know the kids coming into towns on a
Speaker 7: bus or whatnot.
Speaker 3: But they were from an area named the Uptown, which
Speaker 3: is it was a rough neighborhood largely populated by people
Speaker 3: from the poor whites from Appalachia trying to get their
Speaker 3: toe old in the American dream and you know, more
Speaker 3: often than not unsuccessfully. So these kids were a lot
Speaker 3: of them were not parents didn't love them, but they
Speaker 3: were feral children. They were running around wild and you know,
Speaker 3: that sort of stuff, and so it would be easy
Speaker 3: for the police at the time to blow it off.
Speaker 7: And you know, in addition, you know, and I talked
Speaker 7: to LA cops about this is like with the nightstocker
Speaker 7: Richard Ramirez, because it was all kinds of jurisdictions and
Speaker 7: there wasn't there wasn't the communication that there is now,
Speaker 7: so you know, you know, somebody might be snatched off
Speaker 7: the street here, murdered there and dumped over there, and
Speaker 7: and so it was, you know, a bit of a
Speaker 7: logistical nightmare. So and that was I think part of
Speaker 7: the thing with Gacy. I mean, the police always and
Speaker 7: plus you know, Gacy would always hould up the card
Speaker 7: that he was. You know, he's a Democratic chairman. He
Speaker 7: was a popular and successful businessman.
Speaker 3: And who you going to believe, right, And it would
Speaker 3: be much different again today, but they would believe Gacy,
Speaker 3: you know, said, oh, yeah, I saw him, he worked
Speaker 3: for me, I paid him, and he left. He said
Speaker 3: he was going to Wichita or Colorado or California or
Speaker 3: something like that. And that would be good enough for
Speaker 3: the cops, you know, And the cops at the time
Speaker 3: didn't have the tools necessary to deal with a guy
Speaker 3: like John Wayne Gacy.
Speaker 6: You're right that it's even interesting where the police had
Speaker 6: reports of missing people, missing persons that were employees of
Speaker 6: PDM or former employees of PDM, and still and you
Speaker 6: write about a couple of the employees that become important
Speaker 6: later David Cram and forgotten the other gentleman's name. But regardless,
Speaker 6: these continued, This missteps by police continued completely. But you
Speaker 6: say the beginning of the end, as you call it.
Speaker 6: New Year's Eve nineteen seventy seven, there was a person
Speaker 6: that again got away, and he had a story for
Speaker 6: police that he was kidnapped at gunpoint at a bus
Speaker 6: stop and forced into sexual acts. And he said that
Speaker 6: he pleaded with cops to believe him, but they treated
Speaker 6: him like he was stone.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he wasn't going to, you know, let let this
Speaker 3: die him and his hoals like he remembered Gacy's car.
Speaker 3: He remembered Gacy couldn't tell you where he lived.
Speaker 7: But you know, he knew where he'd been taken or
Speaker 7: where he'd been dumped off and whatnot.
Speaker 3: And so he thought they thought that he would get
Speaker 3: on the arm ramp at this particular spot, and sure
Speaker 3: enough he did so Gasey. You know, he goes with
Speaker 3: this to the cops.
Speaker 7: He knows that it's Gaysey, and they follow him to
Speaker 7: his home and they know exactly where he is and
Speaker 7: they go to the cops and the cops aren't really
Speaker 7: enthusiastic about this, and you know, so they're going to
Speaker 7: charge him, and instead Gaycy settles out of court with this.
Speaker 3: Guy to make it, to make it all go away
Speaker 3: and to continue on his merry way. Now, this is
Speaker 3: the first inkling.
Speaker 7: He's been back in Chicago at this point, by like
Speaker 7: for six seven years, and despite numerous reports, nobody's linked
Speaker 7: them all together. And so finally they you know, this
Speaker 7: guy's on the record, they know who this guy is.
Speaker 7: They know, you know, Gacy is a little bit more
Speaker 7: exposed by this point.
Speaker 6: Another person you read about is Jeffrey Ringnol and he
Speaker 6: was determined to find his attacker as well. He claimed
Speaker 6: this is very very interesting. He claimed that there was
Speaker 6: another man in the room during his torture and rape, observing.
Speaker 7: Well, there's been I mean, that's been one of the
Speaker 7: persistent I mean, I think that's sort of what is
Speaker 7: one of the things that makes the John Wayne Gacy
Speaker 7: story evergreen. Is that it just seemed like there was
Speaker 7: so many loose ends, you know what you know, Jeff
Speaker 7: Rignol said, you know, they've been widely believed that he
Speaker 7: had accomplices, and there was like many many more, many
Speaker 7: more victims know who the accomplice was, We don't know.
Speaker 3: We have an idea. There's different names.
Speaker 7: That have you know, crossed the page over the last
Speaker 7: forty odd years. You know, there's David Cram, There's you know,
Speaker 7: there's a Philip Pasky.
Speaker 3: That's it, yes, and you know there's a number of
Speaker 3: these characters who move in and out of that orgament.
Speaker 3: Now Pasky was a was an employee of aases as well,
Speaker 3: and he was a close associate you know, the probably
Speaker 3: the you know, the man called by the Dallas Detectives,
Speaker 3: the pedophiles, pedophile and John David Norman who ran a
Speaker 3: nationwide pedophile sex ring that supplied boys to you know
Speaker 3: very well healed perverbs. So yeah, so, I mean there's
Speaker 3: all these strands and Dacy was well traveled as well
Speaker 3: for a man of the nineteen seventies. I interviewed a
Speaker 3: guy a couple of weeks ago, who's.
Speaker 7: Certain that you know he you know he got away
Speaker 7: from Gaysey by the skin of his teeth.
Speaker 3: I mean he got busted for stealing his car.
Speaker 7: And this was in Lexington, Kentucky, and he got away
Speaker 7: by the skin of his teeth and whatnot.
Speaker 3: And you know it's only been the last few years
Speaker 3: this record was cleared. But you know I had something.
Speaker 3: He was certain when he saw saw Gaysey that was
Speaker 3: the guy he'd gotten the way from and had the
Speaker 3: Gaysey playbook to a team.
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Speaker 6: Now when I mentioned it, it was a beginning of
Speaker 6: the end. As you write, it wasn't so long after.
Speaker 6: There was other attacks In June Timothy O'Rourke, he was
Speaker 6: charged for battery on Ringnal. But in the interim he
Speaker 6: goes too far from the people he picks to people
Speaker 6: where he picks them. He's got a contract remodel pharmacies
Speaker 6: and it's Nissan Pharmacy into Planes and owner Phil Torp
Speaker 6: he's talking about renovating this pharmacy and Rob peaste overhears
Speaker 6: that this contractor is paying five dollars an hour, twice
Speaker 6: what he's making at this pharmacy, and so his mom, heartbreaking,
Speaker 6: lead's there to pick him up. But also it's her
Speaker 6: birthday and he tells mom, you know, just wait inside
Speaker 6: and I'm just going to he talked to his contractor
Speaker 6: and she never ever sees him again. And that is
Speaker 6: the downfall for John Wayne Gacy in that again, this
Speaker 6: is a person that he shouldn't have messed with, and
Speaker 6: so soon detectives are onto him. You write about again
Speaker 6: what many people have read before about the police coming
Speaker 6: in and the tailtale smell and the one time when
Speaker 6: the heat just went on, Gasey would invite these police
Speaker 6: in his own home because he was under twenty four
Speaker 6: hour surveillance. Eventually, that surveillance drove him baddie, and he
Speaker 6: went to his attorney, which was the first case he
Speaker 6: had in his private practice, and John Wayne Gacy asked
Speaker 6: for a whiskey and then told Sam Amaranti everything that
Speaker 6: he had done, didn't he?
Speaker 3: Yeah, he did, and I mean he was at the
Speaker 3: end of it.
Speaker 7: Gasey spilled his guts, so Amoranti couldn't.
Speaker 3: Was a diminutive man, and yeah, I said that, no, no,
Speaker 3: he used to be six feet tall, but Case knocked
Speaker 3: the foot off his statue, right, But he said that.
Speaker 8: You know, Gasey is telling them, and you know, as
Speaker 8: Gasey gets up to leave, and Amarante runs out where
Speaker 8: the cops are and said, don't let him go because
Speaker 8: because you know, by this point and to their credit,
Speaker 8: you know, when the the planes police.
Speaker 3: Are on to Gacy, they're like all in to get them.
Speaker 3: And I don't think it was any one person's fault
Speaker 3: or anything like that. Certainly it wasn't homophobia at least
Speaker 3: as they insist even now. And you know, I tend
Speaker 3: to believe them.
Speaker 7: They were a victim of their times, the same as
Speaker 7: unfortunately those there's three young men and boys were.
Speaker 3: But by now he Gasey spills to Amarante.
Speaker 7: And now they've now they've got him, and he can't
Speaker 7: you know. One of the damning things for Gacy was
Speaker 7: that he was allowed the breaker and he couldn't shut up.
Speaker 7: And the detectives that were after weren't the Keystone cops.
Speaker 7: Caasey thought they were. That they were paying very close
Speaker 7: attention to everything. They were saying, every every every cop
Speaker 7: and spit. And then the horrific work, you know, began
Speaker 7: to unearthing the bodies from his house, which you know,
Speaker 7: was avocate of horror, you know, the no you know,
Speaker 7: Schlockbaister could ever possibly imagine.
Speaker 6: The to add to this horror was Sam Amarani and
Speaker 6: another attorney Motto, but also the police also got an
Speaker 6: ear full of again the braggart, the person that considered
Speaker 6: these people it was their own fault and they had
Speaker 6: it coming to him.
Speaker 1: They were like trash. He had his He had no remorse.
Speaker 6: Whatsoever, not that you would expect it, but none, even shockingly,
Speaker 6: but he talked about because of his big mouth. He
Speaker 6: field again, nothing no horror movie could compare to this horror.
Speaker 6: That he even spoke about himself about what he did
Speaker 6: to Rob Peaste, what he did to other victims, the torture,
Speaker 6: the rape, and the taunting incredible.
Speaker 7: Well, yeah, the level of depravity is just staggering. Now,
Speaker 7: as I'd mentioned earlier, I mean, all these kids, all
Speaker 7: the kids in Young met Casey murdered White and Gacy
Speaker 7: had said, you know, in one interview that he only
Speaker 7: killed those who tried to shake him down or would
Speaker 7: or would really fight him.
Speaker 3: But you know, I mean, I think if I was
Speaker 3: in the situation of those voice, my inclination would be
Speaker 3: to fight. I don't think shaking down would be of
Speaker 3: any consideration. And the tales are horrendous, of the tears
Speaker 3: and begging for their lives, and that seemed to ribe
Speaker 3: Gacy to further heights of some kind of twisted ecstasy. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And it was horror.
Speaker 7: After horror after horror after horror every day for months.
Speaker 3: And you know, indeed, as I mentioned.
Speaker 7: Earlier, that they still haven't I think there's five bodies
Speaker 7: still that they've not yet identified that you know, were
Speaker 7: you know, underneath his house. One Chicago detective, i mean
Speaker 7: Cook County Cherifs detective has been the guardian.
Speaker 3: Of these cases.
Speaker 7: And he was supposed to specifically be doing Gayzy, but
Speaker 7: he's managed to clear ten other cold cases in the interim.
Speaker 7: Just that how much Gayzy, how he still haunts even
Speaker 7: though he's been dead twenty eight years.
Speaker 6: You talk about gaycy as well. At trials, very very interesting.
Speaker 6: His poor mother was on the stand for twelve hours
Speaker 6: and this guy with he showed no emotion, finally showed
Speaker 6: some emotion, and oddly enough, they let John Wayne Gacy
Speaker 6: hug his poor mother.
Speaker 1: At the end of her testimony at trial.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, Casey, you know, was obviously he had
Speaker 7: been hiding in plain sight for years.
Speaker 3: But he was a man of contradictions. Many of the
Speaker 3: detectives that brought him down quite liked him on a personal.
Speaker 7: Level, you know, but you know, but they all thought
Speaker 7: he was a bullshitter too, they you know, I mean,
Speaker 7: they were very clear about that. And obviously he was
Speaker 7: very close with his mother, and you know, I mean,
Speaker 7: his mother did what she could do to protect herself
Speaker 7: or him, protect him from from the father. So he
Speaker 7: had a close pp bond with her end and with
Speaker 7: the sisters and they this was just something they never
Speaker 7: ever ever saw coming like to them, there was no
Speaker 7: indication at all. And you know, I have no doubt
Speaker 7: his mother was heartbroken about it. But you know, I mean,
Speaker 7: it's a horrific horrific or.
Speaker 6: Just you say, is still an ongoing case and there are,
Speaker 6: as you write, unanswered questions, and one of those is
Speaker 6: did he commit any more murders? He has said to
Speaker 6: a detective you quote, how about forty five sounds like
Speaker 6: a good number, and that person believed that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's I mean, that's the big part of it too,
Speaker 3: is that Gacy, as I said, you know, traveled frequently
Speaker 3: to Florida he would and you know, and also to
Speaker 3: Pittsburgh and he would drive. And as we both know,
Speaker 3: there were a lot of hit takers and young people
Speaker 3: on the road at that time. You know, here's this guy.
Speaker 7: Might be a bit of a loud mouth, but he's
Speaker 7: friendly enough and whatnot.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll take a ride with him.
Speaker 7: You know, it's impossible to think that when Gaycy was traveling,
Speaker 7: you know, down to Florida or wherever he was going,
Speaker 7: that what you all of a sudden he put you know,
Speaker 7: murder on the shelf. I mean, because obviously this was
Speaker 7: a compulsion that drove him.
Speaker 3: This was his you know, this was at the core
Speaker 3: of his being by the end.
Speaker 7: I mean, whoever else John Wayne Gacy may have been,
Speaker 7: you know, that was largely erased by the time the
Speaker 7: police brought him in, and he was almost a full
Speaker 7: time predator.
Speaker 6: There is talk about accomplices, and especially when there is
Speaker 6: some controversy over David Kram and Philip Penski working for
Speaker 6: Gasey and you say that, some say that they must
Speaker 6: have been privy to some information, if not again some
Speaker 6: sort of accomplice before or after the fact.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean that's what I believe. I mean, Jeffrey Ringwalld,
Speaker 7: you know, knowing that he's saying that there was somebody
Speaker 7: there when Gasey was, you know, torturing him and raping him.
Speaker 3: You know, Cram's there. And also at the time, as
Speaker 3: I mentioned earlier, there was Penske who worked for Daseynsky
Speaker 3: was a transvestite pedophile who you know, was the main
Speaker 3: associate of a.
Speaker 7: Guy named John David Norman was you know, the most
Speaker 7: you know, notorious pedophile in the United States. He had
Speaker 7: a filing card system of thousands of names of high
Speaker 7: powered people, including politicians in Washington that he would send
Speaker 7: underage boys to. And so they're all in Chicago at
Speaker 7: the same time with Penske working for Gacy.
Speaker 3: You know, it's hard to believe that they may not
Speaker 3: have there may not have been some interaction.
Speaker 7: I mean, one of the people connected with Norman was
Speaker 7: Dean the candy Man Coral, a notorious Houston serial killer.
Speaker 7: I think his tally of death was around, you know,
Speaker 7: around twenty five whatnot. And he had close ties with
Speaker 7: John David Norman, who had been based out of Dallas
Speaker 7: before he ended up in Chicago. And if you look
Speaker 7: at the Candyman's mo it's not.
Speaker 3: You know, dissimilar from Gacy or vice versa, because the
Speaker 3: candy Man was before. But you know, these vulnerable you know,
Speaker 3: you go after vulnerable kids who aren't going to squawk, right,
Speaker 3: and you lure them in with friendship, promises, cool sort
Speaker 3: of stuff and jobs or what have you, and you've
Speaker 3: got them. Now. The Candyman had a number of teen.
Speaker 7: Accomplices, including one of them who you know, parked a
Speaker 7: couple of bullets in them.
Speaker 3: But his reign of terror now that guy's still in prison.
Speaker 7: But you know it's coincidence maybe, but you know, you
Speaker 7: start connecting the dots, you know, that seems like there
Speaker 7: might be something there is it? You know, hurt is granted,
Speaker 7: not necessarily, but it looks like it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I want to thank you so much for coming on
Speaker 6: and talking about your book, Inside the Mind of John
Speaker 6: Wayne Gacy, The Real Life Killer Clown. For those that
Speaker 6: might want to take a look, I know this book
Speaker 6: is on Amazon right now all over the place, paperback
Speaker 6: and Kindle, probably the audiobook soon enough. And also tell
Speaker 6: us about any social media that you do.
Speaker 7: I can be found on Twitter at at Hunter Capital
Speaker 7: t capital O capitals un that's Hunter at t O
Speaker 7: SUN and I also I also wrote a book last
Speaker 7: year called Cold Blooded Murder, which is a collection of
Speaker 7: about twenty five famous murder stories as well, and that's
Speaker 7: also available on Amazon, Burns, and Noble, et cetera.
Speaker 1: Well, that's great, Sure to check it out.
Speaker 6: Thank you so much, Thanks Dan, Inside the Mind of
Speaker 6: John Wayne Gacy, the Real Life Killer Clown. Thank you
Speaker 6: so much. Brad Hunter, you have a great evening. Thank
Speaker 6: you you two. Thanks Dan to stay in trouble, you too.