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Speaker 1: Understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,

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an idea.

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Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through the.

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Speaker 1: Rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I

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tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth, not because.

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Speaker 2: I put my hand on a book and made a.

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Speaker 1: Wish and working together for a more rational world.

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Speaker 2: Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness.

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Truth Fusian wisdom will come to you that way.

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Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the

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Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.

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Speaker 2: I almost had to start this show late because an

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I amuse myself by the way, there was a lawnmower

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going next door. The reason the lawnmower was going next

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door is because of me, and I must tell you

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this story as I wait for the switchboard to populate.

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So there's this empty lot right next to our home

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and the builder or the owner of the lot doesn't

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like to mow it. And I get it. We've had

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a lot of rain and sometimes the grass gets tall

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and its first world problems. Totally, I'm not that person,

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but it was insane. It was like three feet tall

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and out of control and so and this is a

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chronic thing. And so I went on the neighborhood's Facebook page,

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and the neighborhood does have like a community page, and

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I posted an image which I had photoshopped. So I

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went out with my phone. I took a picture of

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the overgrown lot, and I came back here into photoshop

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and I put a bunch of Riesei's monkeys photoshopped an

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entire troop of Reesei's monkeys that were all frolicking around

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this overgrown lot in the grass and the weeds. It

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was actually pretty impressive. I was pretty happy with my work,

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considering I did it on the fly. And I posted

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it and I tagged the lot owner because I'm a

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jerk apparently, and I said, I'm not saying that the

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lot next door is overgrown and out of control, but

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a troop of Riese's monkeys has taken up residence there

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and all the screeching is making it hard to sleep

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at night. Everybody had a big laugh first thing. This morning,

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mowers are out there. That's just awesome. And honestly, in

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this sounds kind of well, maybe it doesn't. Maybe you

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get this another reason I don't like for them to

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let it overgrow. It is because we have a ton

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of bunnies in the neighborhood, a lot of rabbits. They're everywhere.

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They like to get in our little garden and they

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live behind the trees and they're frolicking here and there.

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And you know, some people say they eat the plants. Hell,

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I don't care. They're bunnies. They're little rabbits, so cute.

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But the rabbits like to take up residents and in

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the tall grass, and so when they wait till it's

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three plus feet, sometimes the bunnies cannot get out of

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the way of the mower. And I'm going to spare

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you the details. But it's as bad as you would think,

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because I stumble upon the aftermath when I'm walking Linus.

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Totally gruesome, totally avoidable. So part of me is like,

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save the bunnies. Moh the damn lawn occasionally. Anyway, that's

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my first world problem and easy amusement today. So if

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you ever need someone to photoshop some reesius monkeys into

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your neighborhood, just call me. If I'm not busy, if

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I'm not too big, I will do that. I have

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been reading and by the time this show airs, the

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headline will be a few days old. I've been reading

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about our director of the National Institute of Health who

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has been swimming with his family in fecal water. It's awesome.

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It's awesome. What better metaphor could there be for our times?

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As posted on NBC News on the twelfth of May,

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Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Junior posted

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photos of himself and his grandchildren swimming in waters known

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to be contaminated during a Mother's Day hike in Rock

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Creek Park. In one of the photos from Sunday, Kennedy

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is seen fully submerged in the water with his grandchildren

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swimming in spite of an ongoing National Park Service advisory

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against coming in contact with the water in the Washington

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d C. Park quote due to high bacteria levels. The

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same notice as swimming and waiting are not permitted due

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to health risks. Stay out of the water to protect

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stream banks, plants, and animals, and keep you and your family,

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including pets, safe from illness. Rock Creek has high levels

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of bacteria and other infectious pathogens that make swimming, waiting,

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and other contact with the water hazard to human and

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pet health, and there are photos of our FK Junior

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and his grandchildren swimming in fecal matter. What better metaphor

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for our times? FYI, Because of popular demand, that drawing

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that I did for the Recovering from Real re Leigion

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fundraiser last year, the drawing of my cat that Matt

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Dillahunty tattooed to his leg when we reached a fundraising goal,

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it is now merchandise. Somebody's like, put that on a

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T shirt and I would buy it. And I couldn't

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believe it. This was months ago. Are you kidding me? Yes? Please,

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I must have this. They said, Well, I have made

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an update finally to the Thinking Atheist store, the online store.

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Go to the Thinkingatheist dot com and you'll see the

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store tab and so I've added some stuff to it.

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I've got the Thinking Atheist logo mug. The slogan says,

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assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. I have T shirts.

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There is a sweatshirt and oh my god, look at it.

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It's cat and you can get the shirt in gray

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or in white. I cannot believe people want to buy it,

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but of okay, I made it available and it's on

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a mug. Now you know, some people are like, well,

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I'm going to pay eight bucks for a mug or

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ten bucks and these are fourteen fifteen, sixteen. I can't

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remember what the prices are. I ain't getting rich on

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the store, you know what I'm saying. But the nature

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of the beast is is that the provider, the fulfillment house,

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takes their cut and then then the rest goes to me.

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So there's like a wholesaler retailer retailer kind of thing.

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So you know, it's not are they super cheap?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 2: Are they super expensive? Note, but you have to think

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of it in terms of supporting the channel and the

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work and getting some swag along the way. So here

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I am showing you. I've got the mugs, I've got

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t shirts, I've got cat I've got a tote bag.

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Oh look a mousepat stainless steel water bottle and all

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that the Thinkingatheist dot com and then you click the

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store tab. I didn't put the thing thinking Atheists on

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the products themselves. And it's not because I'm a coward.

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It's strategic because I like the idea of the logo

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and the slogan as conversation starters. I've had people who

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have contacted me, and they said, look, my religious parents

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came over and we had coffee, and I served them

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coffee in a thinking Atheist mug with your logo on

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one side the thinking person icon with the A in it,

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and then the other side it said assume nothing, question everything,

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and start thinking. And my religious family members said, wow,

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that's awesome. I think we should all be thinking. So

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they were drinking heathen brew. I just thought that was awesome.

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I just thought that was awesome. So anyway, the Thinkingatheist

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dot com and then click on the shop icon taking

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your calls on whatever subject is on your mind. The

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number is in the show titled just dial me up

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or use the weblink and let's talk. I've got nine

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zero four Juno. Welcome Juno. Can you hear me?

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Speaker 4: Yes? I can. How you doing?

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Speaker 2: I'm well, let's talk what's on your mind?

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Speaker 3: So I spent a lot of time yesterday on Blue Sky,

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consuming far too much political content and had a bit

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of a revelation this morning as a result of that,

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and I'm hoping you can poke some holes in my hypothesis.

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Speaker 4: My idea is.

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Speaker 3: Well, for me, the standard for holding a public office

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is being able to demonstrate empathy at that scale. So

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if you want to be a mayor, you need to

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be able to demonstrate having empathy for your entire city.

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If you want to be president, then you need to

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be able to hold the entire nature in.

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Speaker 4: Your heart at once.

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Speaker 3: The revelation I had this morning was that I hold

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the same standard to claims of deities, because to me,

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the Christian God at the very least does not demonstrate

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empathy for his creation. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it does. I'm not sure if gods would be

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required to be empathetic. Isn't our history or mythology rather

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filled with the stories of angry gods?

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Speaker 3: True? Yeah, and that's basically you know, a reason I

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am an atheist. Yes, And I was really just hoping that,

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you know, I gonna have somebody to bounce the idea

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off of, to like find the hold and because it

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feels too simple, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, Oh, I think it's probably one piece of the

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much larger puzzle. But would I expect a benevolent father

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to act with benevolence? Would I want empathetic behaviors and

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attitudes from an all powerful greed maure? Yeah, I certainly would.

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I would take that over the cruelty and the vengefulness

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and the judgment and the bigotry and the jealousy and

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the hate and all that stuff. So, I mean, I

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don't know that your position is flawed. I think it's

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probably a much broader question. But this is certainly a

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piece of that conversation. Sure, fair enough, all right, I think,

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thanks Juno. Yep, all right, We'll see you soon. Thanks.

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Speaker 4: Bye.

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Speaker 2: Was it Elon Musk who said that empathy was a problem.

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We see the oligarchs who were saying that. This is

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an article from March of this year. Americans are still

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in the dark about the scope and scale of what

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Elon Musk is doing with DOGE, the Department of Government Efficiency,

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which isn't an official department, by the way, which is

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working to drastically shrink the size of government by aiming

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to cut a trillion or more dollars in government spending.

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By the way, Sentences like that are examples of how

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the media is failing us. That is from CNN. I'm sorry,

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drastically shrink the size of government. I mean, this is messaging, right,

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It's not about shrinking government. This is taking a machete

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to critical civil service jobs. Science universities, the stuff that

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societies need to function without consideration, and then wielding a

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chainsaw on a stage wearing Hollywood sunglasses, gleefully saying that

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you have you and your unelected dogebro minions who have

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no security clearances and are largely acting in the shadows.

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You've just given them access to six trillion dollars in

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treasury funds and the social security information of three hundred

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and sixty million American citizens. So I'm screaming at news

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outlets like CNN, going Jesus Christ, do your job. They're

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not working to drastically shrink the size of government with cuts.

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This is a coup. It's a power grab. It is

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a blatant violation of our norms, our laws, our constitution.

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As the invertebrates in Congress sit there and allow it

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all to take place. Do you guys see that four

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hundred million dollar plane that Katar just gave to Donald Trump?

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The memes are awesome, and Colter, conservative fire brand, goes

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on social media and says, well, nobody griped whenever the

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president was given the gift of the Statue of Liberty

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my friends, and somebody rightly responded, Yeah, but he didn't

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take the Statue of Liberty with him when he left office, right,

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and that was a gift to the nation, not to

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one dude. Meanwhile, Trump is telling everybody that austerity should

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be the order of the day. Why should your children

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play with thirty dolls when you could cut back with

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the rising costs of everything from groceries to other items

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to your mortgage everyday bills. Why in the world should

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your children have thirty dolls when they could play with

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only two. It's time for you to cut back. Oh

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what a lovely half a billion dollar plane that is Jesus,

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this blows my mind. Caitlin at nine seven zero, Hi,

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are you there?

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Speaker 4: Yes? In here?

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Speaker 2: Welcome? What's on your mind?

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Speaker 5: I guess what I'm struggling with right now is that

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even if people who disagree with what's going on don't

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talk about it. I live in kind of a wealthy,

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white suburban town.

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Speaker 3: And nobody ever wants to discuss what's going on.

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Speaker 4: It brings me down.

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Speaker 5: They tell me they don't watch the news.

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Speaker 2: Hang on, I'm hearing that there is an echo on

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the haulers, So I'm going to make a switch here.

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Can you still hear me?

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Speaker 4: Caitlin, it's a kid.

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Speaker 2: Okay, maybe that's better for everybody. My apologies.

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Speaker 5: It sure seems like we're leading to a place that

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the only option is violence. And I'm not under any

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illusions that we would win that kind of scenario.

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Speaker 4: I know that you just give a good speech about

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what you do.

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Speaker 3: To find hope, but are you having any success building

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community with people who do want to take more action

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or that are even willing discuss what's going on.

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Speaker 2: I found what you have found. There are some people.

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I always reference my tennis team because outside of the

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thinking atheist community, my tennis community is who I see

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the most of because I'm on like five teams, you know,

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and I'm always on the court, and it's small talk.

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We don't talk about the heavy stuff when we're waiting

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to go out and warm up and play the match.

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But I am well aware that there are magas all

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over the place, and they used to be a little

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more bold and vocal. And I don't think I'm projecting

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when I say that they've gone strangely mute, like they're uncomfortable.

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They're like, well, I can't really defend the guy. The

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guy says, well, I don't know if I'll defend the Constitution, right,

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he says In the ABC News interview, He's like, I

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don't know. I mean, that's a lawyer thing. The man

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took his oath, the presidential oath, to defend the constitution,

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he tells the Atlantic. I run the country and the world.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: In the wake of a lot of this type of stuff,

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I have noticed that the magas in my circle have

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become a little less vocal. Self care remains a challenge,

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which is why people need to go right now and

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find the speech that I just released to YouTube called

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Dissent is Our Duty. I took about ten minutes and

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detailed some reasons to be encouraged. And these aren't fabricated.

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They're not false. It's not pie in the sky, but

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they are genuine things that are happening throughout the United

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States that do give us reason to think that maybe

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it's not all going to get flushed down the toilet.

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Maybe there is some reason to hope. And in the meantime,

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I think being an activist and fighting for what we

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think is right and speaking out for the good, I

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think that's good medicine. Just don't forget self care. Caitlin

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don't forget to take care of you. Okay, too true.

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Speaker 5: And I appreciated that speech, and I appreciate your time.

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Speaker 2: I hope you have a good rest of your day.

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You bet, you take care of yourself, Kaitlyn, Bye bye.

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I enjoy doing live presentations. Something unique about having that

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immediate feedback with a live audience. You know, if I

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say something here, then I might get an email within

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the hour or the next day. If I say something

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that I think is funny, I don't know if anybody

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else is laughing at all. I mean when you hear

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about the recis monk who have been photoshopped in the

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field next to me, I may be cracking up, but

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I don't know if anybody else is. Maybe I'm just

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amusing myself. But if I do the material, or if

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I show something, if I'd have shown that photo to

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a live audience, I would immediately know how it went over.

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So anyway, I really do enjoy the chance plus to

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connect with people. Speaking of conventions, I am going to

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be on the road, helelp me pull up my own

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calendar because I can never remember Seth Andrews dot come.

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I am going to be speaking at Wichita Oasis going

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to Kansas on June the first, that's a Sunday morning

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at eleven. I'll be at the Nanocon event in Nashville,

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the Nashville Nuns Conference July twenty sixth. Baja Cohn August eighth, ninth,

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and tenth in Sarnia, Ontario. And I mentioned earlier that

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getting through customs in to Canada and back was the

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easiest I've ever gotten through customs. So if you're heading

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from the States to Canada for the event, don't sweat

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it all right. I wouldn't want to be somebody else

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coming down here. But if you're in the States going

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to Canada and back, I wouldn't sweat that at all.

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That was piece of cake. And I'm looking forward to

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going back to Sarnia, one of my favorite events of

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the year. Details on these and other events the Thinkingatheist

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dot com slash events Okay and beautiful people. We have

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many more calls to take and many more conversations to have,

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and we will continue right after this. Appreciate your support

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so much on Patreon. Thank you for I don't know

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whatever your partnership entails, whether it's a buck a show

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or a buck a month, whatever, if you would like

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to s bored me and the work Patreon dot com

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slash Seth Andrews six one two. I don't see a name.

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Who's this?

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Speaker 4: This is a Seth Nelson Seth. You will believe it

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a fellow Seth.

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Speaker 2: There used to not be very many of us. I've

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met more and more as I've gotten older, and I've

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seen a few famous Seth's out there. Seth Rogan, Seth Myers,

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et cetera. What's on your mind, Seth? What do you

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want to talk about?

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Speaker 4: Well, first, I would like to talk a little bit

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about Trump. And I found a very really good article

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that shared a Facebook that was called the Warning Was Real.

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Trump's Executive Order confirms the move towards martial law by

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Tony Pentomali and I just want to read the last

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paragraph because I had something to say about it. He says,

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Trump counts on your passivity. He counts on your fatigue.

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That's why he moved in burst a flurry of orders,

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each more authoritarian than the last, until the norm becomes submission.

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We must not submit. The first time around, Trump tested

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the waters by Faye Square, Portland Muslim band family separation.

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This time he isn't testing, he's executing. The streets are

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being militarized, Civilian oversight is being gutted, law enforcement is

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being deputized as the federal government's domestic army, and the

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groundwork for invoking the Insurrection Act is already finished. If

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Trump formally declares it, there will be no need for

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panic because the tanks, the raids, the silencing, the descent,

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and the crushing of opposition will already be in place.

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That is not a future threat, This is a present reality.

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Sneak resist now, not next month, not after the next outrage,

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not after the next court loss. Now. Now, I would

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disagree with one thing. I think protesting is speaking won't

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do much of anything now because people are already being

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punished for descent. It's essentially thought crimes. Especially with Trump's

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anti Christian bis initiative. People are being sent to a

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foreign consecration camp with no due process for protesting genocide

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and gaza. And yeah about due process. Freedom, speech is gone,

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freedom assembly is gone, freedom the press is gone. I mean,

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if people don't believe that we are dealing with focal

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o flaxis government being put in place, you're delusional, because

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we're looking at the form of it, the squash descent

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to punish anyone who doesn't fall in mine. And as

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much as I'd like to see Trump die before its terminal,

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I don't think we can wait for that. And no

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people who say, oh, we should kill him, no one

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tyrants death isn't going to help. There needs to be

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a clean swip of the entire house full of traders

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to our country, Trump, beth Elon, RFK, et cetera, the

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majority of the Drumans administration and the Christian nationalist people

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in power. I think we need to find a way

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to sentence them all the death, the way the treaders

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have often been dealt with in history, send a message,

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if not by our own country. Let's get some black

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ops soldiers from any allies we have left, or just

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from the Simony and Adam take care of it. We

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can't let this get any further. Trump is so found

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that Putin, he's setting us up to be taken over

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by Putin.

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Speaker 2: All right, let me jump in. I have to strongly

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stand against any call for assassinations. This is not how

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we solve the problem. It's no different than Roger Stone

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saying that you know the enemies of Trump should be assassinated.

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That's not our solution. And I resist any call to

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go out and execute the entire freaking Republican Party, or

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the sick of fans, or the mags or whatnot. I

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think they have sacrificed their humanity. We can sacrifice ours.

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I want to know, from your perspective, if the free

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press is under attack, and if descent is being squashed,

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why would the free press speaking freely and protest in

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the streets not be a message of defiance against the tyrants.

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Wouldn't that type of protest and dissent be important?

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I'm not saying it's not important. That's not

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my issue. I'm just saying that if it's being punished,

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then how can we then what it feels like this

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set isn't enough, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't think lawlessness is the answer. I mean,

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some people think we need to storm the best steel.

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I myself think that is I just don't think we

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beat them by becoming them. And this is a hot

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button conversation. A lot of people are like, well, they're

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in the gutter. We're going to have to get in

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the gutter to deal with them one on one. To

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I face to face. I just I resist the idea

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that as we have been condemning all of the violence

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against our fellow human beings, that then we begin to

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excuse it in our own camp. And I think there

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is merit to nonviolent protest. I think when sixty Minutes

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does a fearless expose of the protection racket that's being

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run by the Trump administration, even as CBS is being

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sued by the Trump White House, that defiance is important,

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and I think it gives courage and power to other

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disseminators of information and investigative reporters out there. I think

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when five million people show up for the April fifth

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Hands Off demonstration, there is messaging taking place. This impacts

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the perspectives and perhaps empowers other people to stand up

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at the local, regional, state, and national level. I think

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it sends a message to their elected representatives, holy shit,

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you better not ignore us. I mean, we've seen the

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people at the town hall meetings, the Republicans, the mag is,

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the Trump sick of fans come out and they try

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to sell the party line, and even his own constituents

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or her own constituents are standing up and going this

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is a bunch of bullshit, and they're doing it so

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much that the elected representatives are walking out of the

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room because they can't handle it or don't want to.

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And I think there is merit to that make them squirm,

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make them uncomfortable. I think there is such a thing

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as good trouble. I don't think assassinating the people we

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oppose is going to fix it.

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Speaker 4: That's just me, I'm hearriet, I just I just feel

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it's really hard to feel like the protest is going

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to help when they're actively you know, no, I get it,

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just when they can actively punish it, when they can

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actively find you out and go and go, oh, nope,

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you're going to jail.

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Speaker 2: Well, let me say this much in my defense, if

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I may, I have seen enough of a resistance at

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the judicial level to make me think that perhaps the

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courts aren't going to totally fail us, that they may

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come in and begin doing a proper defense of the

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letter of the law. Even the Supreme Court. But John

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Roberts at the Helm is starting to shift a little bit.

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You can see there's some resistance. There's infighting within Maga

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cult and to a degree that infighting that internal civil

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war may actually help us. I know there's a lot

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of stuff that is happening, but I sure would like

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to see more of it. I'd like to see it louder.

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I don't want to see us go out and set

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fire to the houses of those we oppose. I just

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don't think that's the solution to our problem. The challenge is,

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I don't know what the solution is. It's messy, it's sticky.

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I wish I had a better answer for you. But

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that's just my perspective, and I know our audience welcomes

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yours as well and shares your frustration.

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Speaker 4: Well, thank you for talking to me.

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Speaker 3: I appreciate it.

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Speaker 4: I'm so sorry if I come across as kind of

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sounding like I'm like some kind of violent line lunatics. No, no, no, no,

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I get it.

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Speaker 2: I mean I feel it. Some people have said somebody

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needs to take Donald Trump out. Remember when he was

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at that big outdoor events and the bullet grazed to

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bosedly grazed his ear. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but

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even now, that story just doesn't wash. Like his ear

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healed up within twenty four hours, there's something wrong with it.

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And then he's you know, selling shot glasses with bullets

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in him. Meanwhile, no one's talking about the firefighter who

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took a bullet and died at the scene. It's the

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whole thing's obscene. But there were a lot of folks

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that were like, man, just a few inches and we'd

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have been rid of him. And I'm like, no, no,

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he would have been a martyr.

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Speaker 4: And then yes, that is something I genuinely thought myself,

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is that it is if you take him. That's one

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of the things I worried about, is because there's so

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many people on the MAGA side that just worship this

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guy that we would make him out of him if

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he's gone. Well, but I do still wonder why did

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the guy bother to double tap? He would he would

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have he would have done it.

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Speaker 2: I'm uncomfortable one of us is getting a visit from

472
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,119
the Secret Service before this is all over. Dude, I'm

473
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,119
one of those guys who thinks, is it James Fell

474
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:27,400
who said cholesterol you have one job? That's how I

475
00:29:27,519 --> 00:29:29,960
feel about it. You know, when he's doing a live

476
00:29:30,079 --> 00:29:33,319
press conference, all of a sudden, you know, he grabs

477
00:29:33,359 --> 00:29:35,960
his chest and it's over. If it had if it's

478
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:37,920
going to happen. I think it has to happen that way.

479
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,680
You just reminded me of a piece that James published

480
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,000
that I'm going to have to read for everybody. Just

481
00:29:43,119 --> 00:29:45,319
know that a lot of folks share your frustration. I'm

482
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,759
this is a forum where you con vent in safety anytime.

483
00:29:48,839 --> 00:29:52,799
Speaker 4: Okay, seth okay, yeah, I just I'm just saying, like,

484
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,759
if the guy actually wanted to succeed, why he could

485
00:29:55,799 --> 00:29:58,039
have Why did he only fire one?

486
00:29:58,319 --> 00:30:01,279
Speaker 2: I get it, I get it, all right, all right,

487
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,039
that's all right, all right, thanks for Collins. We'll see

488
00:30:05,039 --> 00:30:05,359
you later.

489
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:06,759
Speaker 5: All right.

490
00:30:07,319 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm you know, I'm not that guy, and I

491
00:30:11,359 --> 00:30:15,799
know the emotional part of us, you know, I know it.

492
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,960
Just it would feel good. Let me find that post

493
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,160
by James Fell. Okay, yes, here it is. Oh I

494
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:27,519
must read this for you. It'll take me probably ten minutes.

495
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,480
But it's written with such James Fell type verbiage that

496
00:30:32,599 --> 00:30:36,240
I think you will be interested in it. It posted

497
00:30:36,559 --> 00:30:40,119
May the thirteenth, nine forty five a m. On his

498
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:46,599
Facebook page. It's titled when he Dies, he said. Eloquent

499
00:30:46,799 --> 00:30:50,119
quotes tend to find their way to more famous mouths

500
00:30:50,559 --> 00:30:54,319
and are often altered in the process you've likely read

501
00:30:54,839 --> 00:30:57,519
I've never wished a man dead, but I have read

502
00:30:57,599 --> 00:31:01,920
some obituaries with great pleasure and seen it attributed to

503
00:31:02,119 --> 00:31:05,680
Mark Twain. The original quote did not arise until more

504
00:31:05,759 --> 00:31:09,599
than two decades after Twain's death, and reads I have

505
00:31:09,759 --> 00:31:13,599
never killed anyone, but I have read some obituary notices

506
00:31:13,839 --> 00:31:18,039
with great protraction. It was written by Clarence Darrow, the

507
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,279
lawyer who defended John Scopes for teaching evolution back in

508
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:27,079
nineteen twenty five. The adapted version is far more relatable.

509
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,359
Most people have never killed a fellow human, so it

510
00:31:30,599 --> 00:31:33,359
sets few a part to assert this. But in our

511
00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:38,559
highly divisible society, many a pearl clutcher wishes to proclaim

512
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,319
that they've never wished anyone dead. I've wished him dead

513
00:31:43,759 --> 00:31:48,240
every fucking day for the last decade, and I will

514
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:53,119
dance a motherfucking last boy Scout jig when it finally happens.

515
00:31:54,079 --> 00:31:57,079
What happens after he dies depends on both the how

516
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:02,480
and the when. Let us begin with when don't hold

517
00:32:02,519 --> 00:32:07,039
your breath despite being demented as fuck and incapable of

518
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,720
spewing more than a semicogent word salad and frequently doing

519
00:32:11,839 --> 00:32:17,519
the lowie body lean. He appears relatively hail When humans

520
00:32:17,599 --> 00:32:20,240
have access to the best healthcare on the planet, we

521
00:32:20,359 --> 00:32:24,880
don't die easy. He's still ambulatory and can still cheat

522
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,319
at golf. Expecting him to drop dead in the next

523
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,960
year is the most wishful of thinking. They'll pump him

524
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,240
full of drugs to keep his cholesterol in, blood pressure

525
00:32:35,319 --> 00:32:39,119
and check, and he'll likely keep on destroying democracy for

526
00:32:39,319 --> 00:32:45,920
years to come. In my non medical, but unfortunately experiential opinion,

527
00:32:46,039 --> 00:32:49,920
he appears at least five years away from becoming undeniably

528
00:32:50,319 --> 00:32:54,039
enfeebled to the point of needing long term care, at

529
00:32:54,079 --> 00:32:57,440
which point he'll probably last another five or so years.

530
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,160
Sorry to be the bearer Vadnue, but I expect it

531
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:06,079
will be another decade before he finally kicks. But what

532
00:33:06,279 --> 00:33:10,039
if it happened sooner. I know plenty of people would

533
00:33:10,079 --> 00:33:15,400
love the two Amo sexuals to security of the free state,

534
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,400
the motherfucker, but the fallout would be a nightmare. Do

535
00:33:19,599 --> 00:33:22,000
you want a martyr, because that's how you get a

536
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,640
martyr and a civil war. The killer could have Maga

537
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,359
tattooed on his eyeballs and the cult would still say

538
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,640
he was a Democrat. The cult is violent and deranged.

539
00:33:35,079 --> 00:33:38,599
It wouldn't be an organized state versus state, let's use

540
00:33:38,759 --> 00:33:43,319
capital letters civil war, but rather an ongoing and horrific

541
00:33:43,519 --> 00:33:48,359
uprising that would give the new couchfucker in chief overwhelming

542
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:54,839
authority to militarily oppress everyone. The cult already considers him

543
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,839
a demigod, getting jfkaid with having standing next to Jesus

544
00:34:00,119 --> 00:34:06,039
and proclaiming a new Holy Quaternity root for KFC not

545
00:34:06,759 --> 00:34:11,760
two two three. We want McDonald's doing the job, not Macbeth.

546
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,719
A lightning bolt during a live speech would be nice

547
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,440
if we're looking for a lottery win. Marjorie Taylor Green

548
00:34:19,519 --> 00:34:23,440
would surely blame the Jewish space laser, but it would

549
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:28,679
be nonetheless poetic. I myself would like a massive schemic

550
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,519
event that didn't kill him, but seriously gort his ass,

551
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,840
unable to walk or speak, but just flail and drool.

552
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,639
It would go a long way to breaking the spell

553
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,880
as he withered. Considering how much suffering he has caused.

554
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,800
I don't blame those who wish suffering be returned upon him,

555
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:52,719
but his lingering moment is not my motivation. As I mentioned,

556
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,199
it's about breaking the spell and not making him a martyr,

557
00:34:56,679 --> 00:35:00,320
a dead before he hits the ground. Heart attack might

558
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,800
do partial work of martyring him, as the cult would

559
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,519
likely proclaim that we were the cause of it by

560
00:35:06,639 --> 00:35:10,639
being so mean to him. He gave his life for

561
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,800
the office, and those dirty demon rats did everything they

562
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,679
could to prevent him from making things greatly racist again,

563
00:35:19,559 --> 00:35:23,320
and his tremendous, bigly heart finally could take no more

564
00:35:23,559 --> 00:35:28,360
giving and giving and giving, and it gave out. Some

565
00:35:28,599 --> 00:35:32,599
would surely proclaim it was poison, but it wouldn't lead

566
00:35:32,679 --> 00:35:36,920
to war the way an assassin's bullet would. I'll take

567
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,239
the massive mitocardial infarction, but a stroke would be better.

568
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,760
A lingering enfeeblement would help shut the followers the fuck

569
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,920
up more than a quick death. If you believe me, morbid,

570
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:55,119
I care the square roots of fuck all. James Fell's

571
00:35:55,119 --> 00:35:58,480
writing style, it reminds me of Sybe Relliant. It just

572
00:35:58,559 --> 00:36:01,320
makes me laugh. He's one of the the worst men alive,

573
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,199
and the world will be a better place when he's

574
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,880
gone because there isn't another cult leader ready to take

575
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,159
his place, and he didn't build a structure to last

576
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,760
beyond himself. L Ron Hubbard was a cult leader, but

577
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,960
he built scientology to last beyond his death and created

578
00:36:20,039 --> 00:36:24,800
a system that keeps people locked into it. Same for Mormonism.

579
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,599
Joseph Smith created a church before being martyred, so there

580
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,840
was a powerful leader in Brigham Young waiting in the

581
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,880
wings to keep it going. MAGA may be a cult,

582
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,360
but Project twenty twenty five isn't a holy book, and

583
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,480
there's no church or initiation or rituals to continue to

584
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:48,280
bind people together beyond his death. It's just red hats

585
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:52,639
and a stupid four word saying that loosely binds people

586
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:57,559
together via shared hatreds. The real power is in the

587
00:36:57,639 --> 00:37:01,599
worshiping of one man. So long as he's not made

588
00:37:01,679 --> 00:37:05,440
a martyr, the cult won't last long past his demise

589
00:37:05,679 --> 00:37:10,719
or significant debilitation. The GOP remains beholden to his every

590
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,320
whim because of the power of the cult, Every lawmaker

591
00:37:14,519 --> 00:37:18,199
craves the retention of their power and their privilege more

592
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:22,920
than anything else, and defying the cult leader incurs the

593
00:37:23,079 --> 00:37:28,360
wrath of the followers, resulting in political death. His followers

594
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,239
won't care near as much if lawmakers defy a newly

595
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:38,320
installed captain guyliner because they don't worship him. The perceived

596
00:37:38,599 --> 00:37:41,800
strong man who is seen as both an every man

597
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:46,079
as well as an exceptional man is rare. Indeed, such

598
00:37:46,119 --> 00:37:49,000
a leader is viewed as a man of the people,

599
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,840
and to go against him is to be an enemy

600
00:37:52,119 --> 00:37:56,400
of the people. Such rulers are uncommon, but when they arise,

601
00:37:56,559 --> 00:37:59,880
they can bind tens of millions together in a com

602
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,639
and hateful cause. Currently, there is no number two piece

603
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,760
of shit to whom the torch can be passed, no

604
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,079
institutionalization of this cult of hatred to keep them all

605
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:17,199
in Thrall. Things will not miraculously be all better if

606
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,679
the fatty deposits in his blood vessels suddenly stop the

607
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:25,039
transport of oxygen to his brain, but they would still

608
00:38:25,199 --> 00:38:29,360
be better. Some proclaim things would not improve at all,

609
00:38:29,519 --> 00:38:32,760
or perhaps even get worse under the reign of Vladimir

610
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:37,760
Futon creating his own Ottoman empire. But I don't see it.

611
00:38:38,559 --> 00:38:42,559
Worm Tongue doesn't have legions of adoring fans who are

612
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:47,079
sofa king willing to taze their balls to death while

613
00:38:47,199 --> 00:38:51,440
storming the capitol in his name, then neither does anyone else.

614
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:56,559
Speaking of January sixth, what would have been most preferable

615
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,800
was him rotting in a prison cell. But the ass

616
00:39:00,119 --> 00:39:05,800
dragging Merrick Garland due processed America right out of due process.

617
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,719
The power of the hate cult is what got us

618
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,559
into this mess. America was never great. It experiences varying

619
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:19,679
degrees of in shitification, and right now it's at peak

620
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,960
shitty and getting more excremental each day. A couple of

621
00:39:25,079 --> 00:39:28,559
clogged arteries could set the nation on a path towards

622
00:39:28,639 --> 00:39:34,079
something a bit less made of poop. Come on, cholesterol,

623
00:39:36,119 --> 00:39:40,840
James Fell, he cracks me up. He's got a book

624
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,079
that came out a few years ago where he chronicles

625
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,719
various moments in history in his own unique and often

626
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,559
profane way. In the book is appropriately titled On this

627
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,559
day in History, shit went down. And I would have

628
00:39:55,599 --> 00:39:58,079
paid real money to be given the chance to narrate

629
00:39:58,199 --> 00:40:00,800
that sucker, because I would have totally void for him.

630
00:40:02,559 --> 00:40:05,480
I should have volunteered. I'm sure I don't even know

631
00:40:05,519 --> 00:40:08,239
who he had narrated, but you know, that sounds like

632
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,159
a project I'd like to be a part of because

633
00:40:10,159 --> 00:40:12,039
it's fun to read. As you can tell, I really

634
00:40:12,159 --> 00:40:14,960
enjoy myself when I read his material on the show,

635
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:19,880
Him and the Sybabe. Can I link that I'll throw

636
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:25,239
it in the throw it in the chat, and I'll

637
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:26,960
mail try to remember to go back and put it

638
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,239
in the show notes when in the broadcast goes out,

639
00:40:31,079 --> 00:40:36,360
Robert has posted and eurysm twenty twenty eight. Yeah, I

640
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:41,119
think that's a better solution. I've got four three four.

641
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,239
Thank you so much for calling the show. Who's this?

642
00:40:45,159 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 4: Hey said?

643
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,199
Speaker 5: This is Tim. I actually talked to you a couple

644
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:50,480
of weeks ago. I'm so happy that I got this

645
00:40:50,599 --> 00:40:52,280
part of the show because it kind of falls into

646
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,639
line of what you guys were talking about. I told

647
00:40:54,679 --> 00:40:57,639
you while back, I came from someplace that was very conservative,

648
00:40:57,679 --> 00:41:01,119
that made Oklahoma looks secular. Actually live in Lynchburg, Virginia.

649
00:41:01,679 --> 00:41:04,679
I grew up literally next door to Jerry Folwell. I

650
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,079
knew him on a first name basis, all that kind

651
00:41:07,119 --> 00:41:10,920
of stuff. And I think of like Trump. And I'm

652
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:12,639
going to push back on a little of something you

653
00:41:12,679 --> 00:41:14,559
said in the last time we talked, where you said

654
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,559
I asked you about Mosca, Menicome and knowing the enemy,

655
00:41:18,199 --> 00:41:20,880
and I'm going to push back. I don't necessarily know

656
00:41:21,159 --> 00:41:23,159
if Trump is the enemy. I think Trump is more

657
00:41:23,159 --> 00:41:26,280
of the mouthpiece of the enemy. Which is bad ideology.

658
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:30,840
And I think growing up I was in IFB church

659
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,079
and we had a lot of splits in church. The

660
00:41:33,159 --> 00:41:35,480
way you get the split is not by going after

661
00:41:35,599 --> 00:41:39,039
the pastor. It's by picking off the low hanging fruit

662
00:41:39,159 --> 00:41:41,719
and getting people on your side and hey, the pastor

663
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,880
is wrong on this. And I think that that would

664
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,440
be in addition to peaceful protest. I think that would

665
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,719
be a great way. I know you've helped me come

666
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,840
out and tell my family I'm an atheist, and my

667
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,840
wife said, I'm an atheist. I mean many different things.

668
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,840
I think that we need to have conversations with people

669
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,559
because them isn't necessarily the person, it's the idea. I mean,

670
00:42:03,679 --> 00:42:06,119
look at Chay Gavara, like you said about if somebody

671
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,760
was to do something to the president. You can kill

672
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,079
a man, you can't kill an idea. And I just

673
00:42:11,159 --> 00:42:12,639
wanted to see what your thoughts were on it.

674
00:42:14,599 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not sure I understand which part you're pushing

675
00:42:17,159 --> 00:42:19,679
back on. What was the statement I made when you

676
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:21,679
disagree with your statement?

677
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 5: When you got off, I said, you know I talked

678
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,440
to you about Naska and Menicum and knowing thy enemy

679
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,079
and your ending of it. You were talking about is

680
00:42:28,159 --> 00:42:29,679
Trump my enemy? And you kind of seem to go

681
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,599
back and forth, and your final statement was Trump is

682
00:42:32,679 --> 00:42:36,599
your enemy. And when I said, you really made me

683
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:38,679
think about it, like, you know, well, is this person

684
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,840
really my enemy? I think he's just a mouthpiece. I

685
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,280
think he's just the person that's out there spewing ideas,

686
00:42:45,679 --> 00:42:48,039
and it's the people that give him the power. It's not.

687
00:42:48,599 --> 00:42:50,760
I mean, Jerry fall would would have been nothing if

688
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,679
his church was small. So I feel like we can

689
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,800
combat the ideology more than we can necessarily combating the people.

690
00:42:59,159 --> 00:42:59,920
If that makes sense.

691
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 2: I'm not sure I can divorce the two. If I'm

692
00:43:04,519 --> 00:43:10,320
a person who is bigoted because I have anti LGBT ideas,

693
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:16,519
then if I may be a toxic person, I may.

694
00:43:17,199 --> 00:43:20,679
Maybe I'm brainwashed. There could be a number of reasons

695
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,000
that I have the belief that I have. But if

696
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:28,480
you know I am an agent of anti democracy, if

697
00:43:28,559 --> 00:43:30,960
I am a proponent of cruelty and all those types

698
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,840
of things because I have bad ideas, then I, as

699
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,960
a human being, must be opposed. I mean that is

700
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:38,400
that fair?

701
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:43,760
Speaker 5: I think that I think that sometimes and I've noticed

702
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,440
this with people, is we tend to talk past each other,

703
00:43:48,039 --> 00:43:51,400
and instead of going after the big topics, you know,

704
00:43:51,639 --> 00:43:54,559
start challenging people in the small ones that jet from

705
00:43:54,639 --> 00:43:57,639
cutter is do you feel like that's a good idea?

706
00:43:57,719 --> 00:43:59,280
Should we take something like that?

707
00:43:59,519 --> 00:43:59,679
Speaker 2: You know?

708
00:44:00,159 --> 00:44:03,039
Speaker 5: And sometimes you can slowly bring people around. If you

709
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,719
just drop a frog in hot water, they jump right

710
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:07,960
back out. You got to you can't just go in

711
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,119
there and say, well, you know, Trump's a terrible person.

712
00:44:10,599 --> 00:44:13,440
But I've even noticed in my community Lynchburg, Virginia, the

713
00:44:13,639 --> 00:44:16,920
most Christian place you can be, I've even noticed some

714
00:44:17,119 --> 00:44:20,039
people opening up to well, I don't really like this,

715
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,599
you know, and I, yeah, that's not a great idea,

716
00:44:24,079 --> 00:44:26,320
And I think that's how we open the door. But

717
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,079
I think that a lot of times when we go

718
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,320
for the real, hard hitting issues, we talk past each other.

719
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,239
And I feel like we need to start with those

720
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,599
small issues where people aren't so defensive, and work our

721
00:44:37,679 --> 00:44:40,679
way up to those bigger and bigger issues, because a

722
00:44:40,679 --> 00:44:42,320
lot of times when you hit a hard issue with

723
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,480
somebody and I don't like Trump, their immediate reaction is

724
00:44:45,519 --> 00:44:48,239
to get defensive and feel like you're attacking them personally.

725
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:50,719
But if you start with how do you feel about

726
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,400
this particularly anti Christian bias policy or this do you

727
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,239
feel like Christians are persecuted? And by the way, I'm

728
00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,480
also the guy that wrote you letter. I'm pushing for

729
00:44:59,559 --> 00:45:02,360
this all across the internet. The Young Holy Trinity needs

730
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,039
to be in the White House face.

731
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,079
Speaker 2: Well, I think you and I agree. I think you know.

732
00:45:08,599 --> 00:45:12,039
I gave a speech last year about how identity beliefs

733
00:45:12,119 --> 00:45:14,679
and people hold on to many of these ideas for

734
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:19,519
emotional reasons, Identity branded onto them, often from youth. People

735
00:45:19,639 --> 00:45:22,199
can be the proponents of bad ideas while also be

736
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,159
the victims of bad ideas. And I've been doing a

737
00:45:25,199 --> 00:45:28,039
little bit of the same. When Donald Trump said he

738
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,360
didn't know if he would defend the Constitution, that was

739
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,039
actually a question that I asked of someone who was

740
00:45:35,119 --> 00:45:39,039
a Trump supporter, and it was a way in. It wasn't,

741
00:45:39,679 --> 00:45:42,440
oh my god, this man's an enemy of the Constitution.

742
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,800
I said, did you hear that interview that he did

743
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,480
on ABC where he said he didn't know if he

744
00:45:48,519 --> 00:45:52,199
would defend the United States Constitution while the presidential oath

745
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,800
says that this is one of his main jobs. Did

746
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,880
you see that and what's your perspective? And it shifts

747
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,679
the burden onto them without making them feel unsafe.

748
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:07,280
Speaker 5: I think you and I agree, oh absolutely, one hundred percent.

749
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:09,800
One that I've used just in the last day or

750
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,960
two is the suspension of habeas corpus. Most people have

751
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,320
no idea what that is, and they're looking at it

752
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,079
from this perspective of who we want to use this on? Immigrants? Yeah,

753
00:46:20,159 --> 00:46:23,239
but that applies to us too, and it's one of

754
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,639
those you know, where does the madness stop at that point?

755
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:29,840
And sometimes you can bring people around on those small ideas.

756
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:35,199
And I think we as individuals, yes, protest is good, civilized, peaceful,

757
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,239
Let's get on the media. Let's let the media know

758
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,280
there is another side out there. But I also think

759
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,599
it can start with just talking to somebody, one person.

760
00:46:43,679 --> 00:46:46,440
If we can get one person more on our side,

761
00:46:47,079 --> 00:46:47,280
you know.

762
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 4: Think about it.

763
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,320
Speaker 5: If everybody out there who's on the opposition of the

764
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,119
Republican Party, if we can at every five people, you

765
00:46:53,199 --> 00:46:55,599
get one more person, well that's enough to sway the

766
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,760
balance of power. So I think that one of the

767
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:00,960
things we could do is just try to be more

768
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,039
willing to approach people and talk to things about it.

769
00:47:05,199 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 2: If you can convert one in five. I want your autograph.

770
00:47:09,199 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 4: I know that was a.

771
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,079
Speaker 2: Run for you need to run for some high office

772
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,960
or starter religion ors. You've got more power than I've

773
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:24,920
ever seen, but I appreciate your kindness. Kindness is not weakness,

774
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,079
Consideration is not being a sellout. And you know, a

775
00:47:28,159 --> 00:47:31,599
lot of times I think the high profile public figures

776
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,280
deserve when we go hard after him. And I think

777
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,840
there's utility in ridiculing people in power who are using

778
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:41,239
that power to oppress. We're essentially stripping them of the

779
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,320
seriousness that they want to embrace for themselves. But in

780
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,320
the one on ones, I agree, I don't walk in

781
00:47:47,519 --> 00:47:50,960
and say fuck you, maga. If the goal is to

782
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:55,480
try to open their minds or bring them out of

783
00:47:55,599 --> 00:47:59,159
the cult, it's going to cause them to double down, lockdown,

784
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,880
fight flight, or freeze. We have to provide more of

785
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,519
a I know people hate it when I say this,

786
00:48:05,639 --> 00:48:07,920
but we have to create an atmosphere where there is

787
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,840
a little more safety, where they can have those moments

788
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:15,719
of consideration while being confronted with opposing ideas. And so

789
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:17,679
I mean there's merit to that. So I think you

790
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:19,440
and I largely line up on that.

791
00:48:19,599 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 5: My friend, well, growing up in an IFB church, you know,

792
00:48:22,559 --> 00:48:26,400
we were taught homosexuality was wrong. I met a guy

793
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,880
who was homestid. The guy's great, He's a wonderful human being,

794
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,079
and I realized that the only reason I felt that

795
00:48:33,199 --> 00:48:35,480
way is because that's what I was raised in. That's

796
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:37,480
what my parents taught me to be. I mean, you

797
00:48:37,559 --> 00:48:39,599
can probably relate to this. I know a lot of

798
00:48:39,639 --> 00:48:42,599
people that are racist just because their family is racist.

799
00:48:42,679 --> 00:48:45,840
They can't provide a good reason for not liking a

800
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,320
group of people. And I think that that's part of

801
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:50,719
the problem is a lot of these people have been

802
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:54,559
indoctrinated in this idea, coming up. These young voters, you know,

803
00:48:54,679 --> 00:48:58,320
the twenty somethings, the thirty somethings were raised by people

804
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:01,239
that had this ideology. But when you approached them directly,

805
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:04,000
they can't really give you a good reason other than

806
00:49:04,119 --> 00:49:05,360
this is the way I was raised.

807
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:11,519
Speaker 2: It's an identity, it's unconsidered, and it's often human nature.

808
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:15,880
Tribalism is links back to our primate past. We are

809
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:19,800
all meat covered skeletons. Who are you know, for better

810
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:23,480
and worse? Evolutionarily linked to our primate past. And I

811
00:49:23,519 --> 00:49:27,159
think understanding tribalism and how that type of thing happens

812
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,360
is important, and I think it will help tool us

813
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:33,360
up for conversations we're having with other tribes as well.

814
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:35,960
I appreciate your call, my friend. It was some pleasure

815
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:36,840
to speak to you again.

816
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 4: Keep doing the good work, sir.

817
00:49:38,039 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 2: All right, thanks for calling. I'm releasing a video maybe

818
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:46,440
next month or the month after with Drew McCoy, who

819
00:49:46,639 --> 00:49:50,360
is the host of Genetically Modified Skeptic, and he has

820
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:55,920
been speaking a lot about how he approaches believers with

821
00:49:56,239 --> 00:50:01,840
kindness whenever possible. And you know, Drew's got this really relaxed,

822
00:50:02,039 --> 00:50:04,000
kind of an easy way about him. You know, he

823
00:50:04,159 --> 00:50:07,960
puts people at ease, at rest, he makes them feel calm.

824
00:50:08,079 --> 00:50:11,760
And some people oppose his approach because they think it's weak,

825
00:50:12,639 --> 00:50:14,320
and we were talking about that, and I just don't

826
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:18,079
think kindness is weakness. Often kindness is strength. I'm not

827
00:50:18,199 --> 00:50:23,199
saying we sing kumbbai Ya with racists, but I do

828
00:50:23,639 --> 00:50:26,280
think we have to walk in as creatures of consideration

829
00:50:26,559 --> 00:50:29,840
to figure out, well, how did this happen? What is

830
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,719
their background, what are the gears in the machine, How

831
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,199
do we fix the machine? How can we empower them?

832
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:39,719
To do some self reflection because it has happened. You're

833
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,280
listening to somebody who came out of a Fox News

834
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:48,440
rush Limbaugh and Coulter Jesus is a capitalist conservative evangelicalism

835
00:50:48,519 --> 00:50:51,480
and I escaped. Maybe there's hope for other people as well.

836
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:55,440
That's all I'm saying. And I think it's fair. Okay,

837
00:50:55,559 --> 00:50:58,719
this seems like an appropriate time to get into some

838
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,679
of the science regards beliefs in the brain. We've been

839
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:05,079
talking a lot about why we bring facts to people

840
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:09,360
and people just don't care. There is a professor at

841
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:14,159
the University of Connecticut, doctor Keith Belizi. He is a

842
00:51:14,199 --> 00:51:18,079
professor of gerontology in the Department of Human Development and

843
00:51:18,199 --> 00:51:21,880
Family Sciences, and he pends an article for the college

844
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:27,760
called Cognitive Biases and Brain Biology help explain why facts

845
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,519
don't change minds. So I'm going to read that for

846
00:51:31,599 --> 00:51:42,119
you in just a second. From the University of Connecticut,

847
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:47,159
Professor of Human Development and Family Sciences, doctor Keith Belizi

848
00:51:47,519 --> 00:51:51,280
wrote a piece about beliefs the brain and why facts

849
00:51:51,639 --> 00:51:55,239
just seem to bounce off people when we are bringing

850
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:59,280
good data to them and then we get mad frustrated.

851
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:02,800
Maybe it's the word why isn't this making a dent?

852
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,639
He wrote a piece called Cognitive biases and brain biology

853
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:12,119
help explain why facts don't change minds? Let me read this,

854
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:18,280
we'll get some science. Doctor Belizi says this facts First

855
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:22,559
is the tagline of a cn IN branding campaign, which

856
00:52:22,639 --> 00:52:26,960
contends that once facts are established, opinions can be formed.

857
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:32,199
The problem is that while it sounds luckiable, this appealing

858
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:38,880
assertion is a fallacy not supported by research. Cognitive psychology

859
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:43,000
and neuroscience studies have found that the exact opposite is

860
00:52:43,119 --> 00:52:47,679
often true. When it comes to politics. People form opinions

861
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:52,119
based on emotions such as fear, contempt, and anger, rather

862
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:56,559
than relying on facts. New facts often do not change

863
00:52:56,639 --> 00:53:01,159
people's minds. I study human developp in public health and

864
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:05,840
behavior change. In my work, I see firsthand how hard

865
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:09,119
it is to change someone's mind and behaviors when they

866
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:15,840
encounter new information that runs counter to their beliefs. Your worldview,

867
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:20,800
including beliefs and opinion, starts to form during childhood as

868
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:26,280
you're socialized within a particular cultural context. It gets reinforced

869
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:29,840
over time by the social groups you keep, the media

870
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:34,800
you consume, and even how your brain functions. It influences

871
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,920
how you think of yourself and how you interact with

872
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:41,880
the world. For many people, a challenge to their worldview

873
00:53:42,119 --> 00:53:45,840
feels like an attack on their personal identity and can

874
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:50,079
cause them to harden their position. Here's some of the

875
00:53:50,159 --> 00:53:54,559
research that explains why it's natural to resist changing your

876
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:59,239
mind and how you can get better at making these shifts.

877
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:04,920
In an ideal world, rational people who encounter new evidence

878
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:08,440
that contradicts their beliefs would evaluate the facts and change

879
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:12,480
their views accordingly, but that's generally not how things go

880
00:54:12,679 --> 00:54:16,639
in the real world. Partly to blame is a cognitive

881
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:20,199
bias that can kick in when people encounter evidence that

882
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:25,159
runs counter to their beliefs. Instead of reevaluating what they've

883
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:30,960
believed up until now, people tend to reject the incompatible evidence.

884
00:54:31,599 --> 00:54:37,920
Psychologists call this phenomenon belief perseverance. Everyone can fall prey

885
00:54:38,159 --> 00:54:42,880
to this ingrained way of thinking. Being presented with facts,

886
00:54:43,119 --> 00:54:46,599
whether via the news, social media, or one on one

887
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:51,880
conversations that suggest their current beliefs are wrong, causes people

888
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:56,679
to feel threatened. This reaction is particularly strong when the

889
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:02,239
beliefs in question are aligned with your political and personal identities.

890
00:55:02,639 --> 00:55:05,559
It can feel like an attack on you if one

891
00:55:05,639 --> 00:55:10,119
of your strongly held beliefs is challenged. Confronting facts that

892
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:14,559
don't line up with your worldview may trigger a backfire effect,

893
00:55:15,079 --> 00:55:19,199
which can end up strengthening your original position and beliefs,

894
00:55:19,559 --> 00:55:25,760
particularly with politically charged issues. Researchers have identified this phenomenon

895
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,559
in a number of studies, including ones about opinions toward

896
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:37,119
climate change mitigation policies and attitudes toward childhood vaccinations. There's

897
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,199
another cognitive bias that can get in the way of

898
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:45,360
changing your mind, called confirmation bias. It's the natural tendency

899
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:49,039
to seek out information or interpret things in a way

900
00:55:49,119 --> 00:55:54,639
that supports your existing beliefs. Interacting with like minded people

901
00:55:54,880 --> 00:56:01,079
and media reinforces confirmation bias. The problem with confirmation bias

902
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:04,320
is that it can lead to errors in judgment because

903
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:08,400
it keeps you from looking at a situation objectively from

904
00:56:08,559 --> 00:56:13,199
multiple angles. A twenty sixteen Gallup poll provides a great

905
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:17,480
example of this bias. In just one two week period

906
00:56:17,639 --> 00:56:23,760
spanning the twenty sixteen election, both Republicans and Democrats drastically

907
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:28,000
changed their opinions about the state of the economy in

908
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:32,639
opposite directions, and There's a chart that is posted in

909
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:37,480
the article rating the economy before and after the twenty

910
00:56:37,599 --> 00:56:42,039
six election. Before Donald Trump was put in office, most

911
00:56:42,119 --> 00:56:45,719
Republicans said the economy was getting worse. As soon as

912
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:48,800
he was elected, they said it was getting better. And

913
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:54,000
there was a somewhat similar reverse effect with the Democrats. Yeah,

914
00:56:54,079 --> 00:56:58,559
doctor Belize writes, but nothing was new with the economy.

915
00:56:59,199 --> 00:57:02,639
What had changed was that a new political leader from

916
00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:07,440
a different party had been elected. The election outcome changed

917
00:57:07,679 --> 00:57:12,480
survey respondents interpretation of how the economy was doing. A

918
00:57:12,599 --> 00:57:16,760
confirmation bias led Republicans to rate it much higher now

919
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:21,400
that their guy would be in charge. Democrats the opposite.

920
00:57:22,599 --> 00:57:26,239
Cognitive biases are predictable patterns in the way people think

921
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:30,400
that can keep you from objectively weighing evidence and changing

922
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:33,800
your mind. Some of the basic ways your brain works

923
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:37,880
can also work against you on this front. Your brain

924
00:57:38,039 --> 00:57:42,559
is hardwired to protect you, which can lead to reinforcing

925
00:57:42,719 --> 00:57:47,840
your opinions and beliefs even when they're misguided. Winning a

926
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:52,280
debate or an argument triggers a flood of hormones, including

927
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:56,880
dopamine and adrenaline, in your brain. They contribute to the

928
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:02,199
feeling of pleasure you get during sex, eating, roller coaster rides,

929
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:07,679
and yes, winning an argument. That rush makes you feel good,

930
00:58:08,239 --> 00:58:12,679
maybe even invulnerable. It's a feeling many people want to

931
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:18,760
have more often moreover, in situations of high stress or distressed,

932
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:24,920
your body releases another hormone, cortissoul. It can hijack your

933
00:58:25,119 --> 00:58:30,679
advanced thought processes, reason, and logic, what psychologists call the

934
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:36,639
executive functions of your brain. Your brain's amygdala becomes more active,

935
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:41,039
which controls your innate fight or flight reaction when you

936
00:58:41,239 --> 00:58:46,239
feel under threat. In the context of communication, people tend

937
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:50,199
to raise their voice, push back, and stop listening when

938
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:54,280
these chemicals are coursing through their bodies. Once you're in

939
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:58,840
that mindset, it's hard to hear another viewpoint. The desire

940
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:03,079
to be right, combined with the brain's protective mechanisms, make

941
00:59:03,159 --> 00:59:07,239
it that much harder to change opinions and beliefs, even

942
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:12,079
in the presence of new information. In spite of the

943
00:59:12,199 --> 00:59:15,800
cognitive biases and brain biology that make it hard to

944
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:21,480
change minds, there are ways to short circuit these natural habits.

945
00:59:22,679 --> 00:59:27,639
Work to keep an open mind, allow yourself to learn

946
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:32,639
new things, search out perspectives from multiple sides of an issue.

947
00:59:33,199 --> 00:59:37,320
Try to form and modify your opinions based on evidence

948
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:42,719
that is accurate, objective, and verified. Don't let yourself be

949
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:47,840
swayed by outliers. For example, give more weight to the

950
00:59:48,079 --> 00:59:53,039
numerous doctors and public health officials who describe the preponderance

951
00:59:53,159 --> 00:59:57,199
of evidence that vaccines are safe and effective, and what

952
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:00,960
you give to one fringe doctor on a podcast to

953
01:00:01,159 --> 01:00:07,239
suggest the opposite. Be wary of repetition, as repeated statements

954
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:11,719
are often perceived as more truthful than new information, no

955
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:17,199
matter how false the claim may be. Social media manipulators

956
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:21,559
and politicians know this all too well. Presenting things in

957
01:00:21,639 --> 01:00:26,159
a non confrontational way allows people to evaluate new information

958
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:32,639
without feeling attacked. Insulting others and suggesting someone is ignorant

959
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:37,239
or misinformed, no matter how misguided their beliefs may be,

960
01:00:37,719 --> 01:00:40,960
will cause the people you're trying to influence to reject

961
01:00:41,159 --> 01:00:46,480
your argument. Instead, try asking questions that lead the person

962
01:00:46,599 --> 01:00:52,079
to question what they believe. While opinions may not ultimately change,

963
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:56,840
the chance of success is greater. Recognize we all have

964
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:01,639
these tendencies and respectfully listen to other opinions. Take a

965
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:05,679
deep breath and pause when you feel your body ramping

966
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:09,679
up for a fight. Remember it's okay to be wrong

967
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:16,280
at times. Life can be a process of growth. And

968
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:19,559
again that's the article by doctor Keith Belizi of the

969
01:01:19,679 --> 01:01:25,320
University of Connecticut, Cognitive biases and brain biology help explain

970
01:01:25,559 --> 01:01:31,360
why facts don't change minds, And being along with you

971
01:01:31,559 --> 01:01:34,320
on the front lines of many of these conversations and

972
01:01:34,519 --> 01:01:37,840
having felt the frustrations of the brick wall brains, I

973
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:42,320
understand why you might not even want to start. I

974
01:01:42,519 --> 01:01:47,639
found myself thinking nothing's going to make a dent. I've

975
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:50,360
for ten years have said, well, this will be the

976
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:54,320
breaking point, and it just wasn't. You know, oh, this

977
01:01:54,599 --> 01:01:57,519
will cause people to wake up from the coma, and

978
01:01:57,760 --> 01:01:58,960
it just wasn't.

979
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:00,639
Speaker 4: And so I get it.

980
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:05,199
Speaker 2: If you decide not to engage and perhaps focus on

981
01:02:05,559 --> 01:02:09,599
other targets, for lack of a better word, other opportunities

982
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:13,599
out there. But if you do find yourself, if I

983
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:18,199
find myself in direct proximity to somebody who is holding

984
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:22,679
onto a horrible idea, maybe there's some information here about

985
01:02:23,119 --> 01:02:27,760
brain science that might help us not only influence someone

986
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:32,760
else's thinking toward better perceptions, better ideas, but maybe even

987
01:02:33,159 --> 01:02:37,840
make us more self reflective. We are all flawed, fallible

988
01:02:38,119 --> 01:02:41,159
human beings, and we can all be wrong. In being

989
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,599
aware of that, I think is probably one of the

990
01:02:44,679 --> 01:02:49,519
best defenses. Okay, a bonus show is coming up here

991
01:02:49,599 --> 01:02:54,480
later this week. I recently guest hosted, or I was

992
01:02:54,559 --> 01:02:59,719
a guest on the God Awful Movies broadcast with No Illusions.

993
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:04,559
He then right, and Eli Bosnik and these guys irreverently

994
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:10,480
review Christian movies, and Christian movies are not as bad

995
01:03:10,519 --> 01:03:14,719
as you think they're worse. I mean, they're just so

996
01:03:15,239 --> 01:03:19,920
bad they're actually epic. And the GAM the God Awful

997
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:23,400
Movies guys review Christian movies, and they were up to

998
01:03:23,559 --> 01:03:27,519
like show five hundred, and they invited me back for

999
01:03:28,039 --> 01:03:33,360
a nineteen eighty classic called The Second Coming, an apocalypse

1000
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:39,480
film that again featured bunch of stuffy preachers selling fear,

1001
01:03:40,119 --> 01:03:42,880
and so we aired that show. I guess it's been

1002
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,480
a couple of months, and I asked the guys if

1003
01:03:45,519 --> 01:03:48,840
I could rebroadcast it here because we have a lot

1004
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:52,559
of audience members who haven't heard of GAM or haven't

1005
01:03:52,639 --> 01:03:54,440
yet been over there, and I just thought it'd be

1006
01:03:54,519 --> 01:03:57,800
fun to signal boost it. So you may have already

1007
01:03:57,840 --> 01:03:59,639
heard it on the other channel, but in a few

1008
01:03:59,719 --> 01:04:03,960
days for free to everybody, patrons, etc. It's going to

1009
01:04:04,039 --> 01:04:09,039
go out on this channel and it's big fun and

1010
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:11,719
so that's coming up in just a few days. Just

1011
01:04:12,159 --> 01:04:16,639
something extra to listen to. And I will see you

1012
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:21,599
back here officially next week. Be safe, take care, see

1013
01:04:21,599 --> 01:04:21,960
you soon.

1014
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 1: Follow The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a

1015
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:29,480
complete archive of podcasts and videos, products like mugs and

1016
01:04:29,559 --> 01:04:33,199
t shirts featuring the Thinking Atheist logo, links to atheist

1017
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:36,920
pages and resources, and details on upcoming free thought events

1018
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:41,679
and conventions. Log onto our website, The Thinkingatheist dot com.