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<v Speaker 1>Ask not what your country can do for you, ask

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<v Speaker 1>what you can do for your country.

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<v Speaker 2>Mister gorbachaw tear down this wall.

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<v Speaker 1>It's the Ricochet Podcast. Well Steve Hayward hosting this week

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<v Speaker 1>along with Charles C. W. Cook and special guest Anny McCarthy,

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<v Speaker 1>breaking down all the unrest on the streets and in

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<v Speaker 1>the court room. Let's have ourselves a podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, it's very simple, not complicated.

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<v Speaker 1>Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon.

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<v Speaker 3>The increasing range of Iran's ballistic business would bring that

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<v Speaker 3>nuclear likement to the cities of Europe and eventually to America. Remember,

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<v Speaker 3>Iran calls Israel the small saple. It calls America the

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<v Speaker 3>great sagem. Long live Israel and long live America.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Ricochet Podcast number seven hundred and forty five.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Steve Hayward sitting in the host chair today while

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<v Speaker 1>James is still away. Joined by and now one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>percent recovered Charles C. W. Cook at his outpost in Florida.

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<v Speaker 1>How are you today, Charles?

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<v Speaker 4>I am.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm doing well. Thankfully, There's nothing going on in the news,

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<v Speaker 2>so I've been able to ease back into it.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, I keep saying I've been saying for

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<v Speaker 1>a while now that things happen so fast in Trump

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<v Speaker 1>two that we're gonna need to measure in dog years.

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<v Speaker 1>And doesn't the Trump Musk divorce feel like two years

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<v Speaker 1>ago already?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I think to some extent reconcile. So we've

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<v Speaker 2>been through a divorce and maybe a remarriage. It's like

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<v Speaker 2>Richard Burton and Liz Taylor. I wonder how many times

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<v Speaker 2>it will happen.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I think it may follow that same epicycle. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm actually still on holiday over in Europe, but so

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<v Speaker 1>not keeping up moment by moment by the news. But

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<v Speaker 1>like everyone else, I woke up early this morning here

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<v Speaker 1>i head of most of you in America, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>to see the news that Israel has, you know, dropped

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<v Speaker 1>the dime, so to speak, on Iran in a big way.

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<v Speaker 1>And I guess my first thought, Charles is you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the left was starting to taunt Trump here a few

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<v Speaker 1>weeks ago, saying he was what was the euphemism or

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<v Speaker 1>the acronym, he was a taco person attack Taco. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>guessing right now that Iran may have taken a Trump's

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<v Speaker 1>war aversion too seriously, but they won't be celebrating Taco

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<v Speaker 1>Tuesday this next week. Put it that way, right, Maybe

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<v Speaker 1>that's too glib, but the point is, I did wonder.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, there's ways of thinking that Trump didn't want

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<v Speaker 1>them to do this, and did they do it without

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<v Speaker 1>telling us? And you know these things have gone on.

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<v Speaker 1>But then he released that very strong statement on truth

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<v Speaker 1>social saying, look, I told him Ron that they had

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<v Speaker 1>sixty days and today would be six day sixty one.

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<v Speaker 1>That I meant it. And it looks to me like

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<v Speaker 1>Trump didn't chicken out this time. Of course, they're not

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<v Speaker 1>American forces committed to this, at least not yet.

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<v Speaker 5>No.

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<v Speaker 2>A few thoughts. The first is it was very odd

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<v Speaker 2>that the Democrats picked up on that line of argument,

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<v Speaker 2>given that they didn't want Trump to do the things

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<v Speaker 2>he was doing, so they were taunting him for taking

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<v Speaker 2>their position. Yeah, not a smart move in politics, especially

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<v Speaker 2>with Trump on this in particular, though, Trump is an

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<v Speaker 2>interesting figure in that there is a movement that has

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<v Speaker 2>been built up around Trump that often projects onto Trump

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<v Speaker 2>views that he doesn't actually hold and uses him to

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<v Speaker 2>claim changes on the right that have not happened.

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<v Speaker 1>Now.

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<v Speaker 2>There is a lot clearly that has changed with the

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<v Speaker 2>arrival of Trump into the Republican Party, which is now

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<v Speaker 2>a ten year phenomenon. But some of the time, for example,

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<v Speaker 2>on economics, the claims that are made just aren't true.

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<v Speaker 2>This idea that, wow, the Republican are no longer interested in,

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<v Speaker 2>say tax cuts, Trump's here, Well they are, and it

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<v Speaker 2>is never more pronounced than in the realm of foreign policy.

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<v Speaker 2>It is true that Trump criticized the Iraq War, but

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<v Speaker 2>there is a huge gap between the Iraq War and

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<v Speaker 2>the vast majority of things that American presidents have done

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<v Speaker 2>in the last thirty years. Iraq, in fact, is only

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<v Speaker 2>notable because it was an aberration from the foreign policy

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<v Speaker 2>that had surrounded it. And for some reason, some within

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<v Speaker 2>the so called or supposed Trump faction have decided that

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<v Speaker 2>he is an isolationist who would be opposed to ever

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<v Speaker 2>deploying American troops, ever exerting American force. Well, he hasn't actually,

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<v Speaker 2>in this case, had to do either of even those things.

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<v Speaker 2>He's just had to say, yeah, Israel, go deal with Iran.

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<v Speaker 2>Quite why there was this vehemence and assumption that he

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<v Speaker 2>would be opposed to this, It was never quite clear

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<v Speaker 2>to me. Clearly he is not. He has left some

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<v Speaker 2>wiggle room in his rhetoric. Marco Ruby was clear to

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<v Speaker 2>note that the Americans weren't involved. But this isn't out

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<v Speaker 2>of character for Trump if you look at his first term,

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<v Speaker 2>or if you look at the way that he sees

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<v Speaker 2>the world, supporting Israel, doing America a favor, and of

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<v Speaker 2>course doing Israel a great favor too. In taking out

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<v Speaker 2>some of Iran's nuclear capabilities is classic Trump, surely.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, right, there was. I'm no expert on military capabilities,

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<v Speaker 1>but I always thought that there was some doubt as

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<v Speaker 1>to whether Israel could successfully attack Iran alone. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>people kept saying they need American help, they need least

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<v Speaker 1>American intelligence and maybe a wax plans and I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know what other, you know, practical logistical support along the way.

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<v Speaker 5>Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>And it appears that they did not eat any need

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<v Speaker 1>any of that. They only needed our blessing. Uh. And

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<v Speaker 1>now we'll see weapons and weapons, right, and That'sump said that, right,

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<v Speaker 1>Look that we've got the best weapons, and we've given

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<v Speaker 1>them a lot of them to Israel, and we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to give them more. I mean, Trump sounds like he's

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<v Speaker 1>all in on backing Israel on this.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's in our interests for Iran not to have

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<v Speaker 2>a nuke, and I think we can. I shouldn't assume

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<v Speaker 2>we've become so deranged by Iraq that now even indirect

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<v Speaker 2>help is cast us being a forever war. But surely

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<v Speaker 2>we can acknowledge that Iran not having a nuclear weapon

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<v Speaker 2>is good for America. Right, yeah, Well, we can debate

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<v Speaker 2>how we do that, whether we should do it ourselves,

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<v Speaker 2>whether we should support is, how much we should spend,

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<v Speaker 2>whether there are risks, those are totally reasonable questions, But

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<v Speaker 2>the goal, the end, the aim here of Iran not

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<v Speaker 2>having a nuclear weapon surely is presumptively good.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, yes, I think so, I will say, I do know, well,

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<v Speaker 1>actually you know what, I will name names. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>we had Dan McCarthy on the show here several weeks ago,

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<v Speaker 1>and he was very stubborn. I mean, he did say,

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<v Speaker 1>Israel can do it themselves, they don't need any help

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<v Speaker 1>from us, and I thought, well, maybe that's true, but

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure how. I don't know that. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know how you would know that. I like Dan, he's

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<v Speaker 1>a pal, but he and there are other people like him,

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<v Speaker 1>were very dug in that. Really it's none of our business.

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<v Speaker 1>If it Ron has a bomb, it's not really a

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<v Speaker 1>threat to us. And I think that there has been

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<v Speaker 1>this effort by people like Dan, who I repeat I

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<v Speaker 1>like very much, but I think is greatly mistaken here,

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<v Speaker 1>along with others who are saying the same thing. And

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<v Speaker 1>that's not even before you get into Tucker Carlson territory,

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<v Speaker 1>which I don't want to get into.

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<v Speaker 2>You mean you don't want to get into the topic,

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<v Speaker 2>or you don't want to get into the territory he's occupied.

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<v Speaker 1>Either one quarantine the non aggressor.

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<v Speaker 4>Well.

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<v Speaker 2>I think Dan is wrong. I like him too. I

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<v Speaker 2>do think it's important to us. I think as a

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<v Speaker 2>threshold question, it is important to the United States who

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<v Speaker 2>has nuclear weapons, and I don't think it matters where

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<v Speaker 2>they are in the world. You cannot get far enough

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<v Speaker 2>away and stay on Earth from nuclear weapons like it

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<v Speaker 2>obviously affects US Iran. It's not even where Australia is

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<v Speaker 2>in the world. You know, it's right next to a

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<v Speaker 2>whole bunch of countries that affect us, whether they're allies

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<v Speaker 2>or enemies, or we're just neutral towards them. We take

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<v Speaker 2>that perfect theoretical Washingtonian stance. It matters, So I just

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<v Speaker 2>I can't. I don't know if that is being used

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<v Speaker 2>as a proxy for it is better on balance for

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<v Speaker 2>us not to get involved, or it's better for them

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<v Speaker 2>to get a nuclear bomb than it is for us

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<v Speaker 2>to art or support a war. Sure, I can buy

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<v Speaker 2>the argument, although I don't agree with it, but not

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<v Speaker 2>to care. Come on, not to say it's not in

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<v Speaker 2>our interest that that ship has sailed. That is just

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<v Speaker 2>not There was a certain point in American history, I

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<v Speaker 2>think where this sort of view made perfect sense. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, although we weren't wholly unaffected by it, if

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<v Speaker 2>you were an American president in eighteen twenty, the movement

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<v Speaker 2>within the Habsburg Empire, they didn't actually matter that much, right,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, you could say plausibly, we don't care, but

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<v Speaker 2>Iran nuclear weapons.

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<v Speaker 1>Come on, yeah, yeah, that's right. Yes, And they showing

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<v Speaker 1>their question is well, let's switch gears here, back to

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<v Speaker 1>the scene at home, and okay, so what we've got

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<v Speaker 1>the resistance, the riots going on in Los Angeles and elsewhere,

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<v Speaker 1>sounds like they might spread. It sounds like maybe some

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<v Speaker 1>governors like Abbott will get out in front of it

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<v Speaker 1>and stop it from starting. And then we have this

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<v Speaker 1>crazy stunt with Senator Padilla in California. By the way,

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<v Speaker 1>my theory as a native Californian who's watched the state

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<v Speaker 1>slide into a one party socialist republic here in the

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<v Speaker 1>last twenty twenty five years. The problem with Padilla and

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<v Speaker 1>Kamala Harris and Newsom to some extent is they don't

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<v Speaker 1>affect They don't face much effective Republican opposition, they don't

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<v Speaker 1>face much serious media scrutiny, and so suddenly when things

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<v Speaker 1>are running against them, they behave in these ridiculous ways

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<v Speaker 1>like Senator Padia. Now we'll talk with Andy McCarthy in

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<v Speaker 1>a few minutes about some of the legal aspects of this,

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<v Speaker 1>But you and I are better at the politics of it.

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<v Speaker 1>And it seems to me this disastrous politics for the Democrats,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think some of their own polls are even

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<v Speaker 1>perhaps showing this. What Mayor Bass said, this is all terrible.

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<v Speaker 1>And then she declares a curfew. I think, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>faster you can say bad opinion poll, she put in

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<v Speaker 1>a curfew. So what's your sense of it from over

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<v Speaker 1>the other side of the country.

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<v Speaker 2>Wowuck, It pains me to say this, because, as you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a big lover of California. But your state's crazy. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it's the most beautiful place in the world, run by

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<v Speaker 2>terrible people who seem to think that they have a

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<v Speaker 2>veto on federal law. And in any other context, Steve,

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<v Speaker 2>this would be compared to the nullifiers of the past.

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<v Speaker 2>They wouldn't be the heroes, they'd be the presumptive villains.

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<v Speaker 2>You just don't get to stand in the way of

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<v Speaker 2>legitimate federal functions because you don't like them any more

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<v Speaker 2>than Florida would. I think that it has become clear

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<v Speaker 2>within California that the view that I just outlined is

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<v Speaker 2>the majority in the country, and that there is a

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<v Speaker 2>great deal of downside to taking the stance that California has.

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<v Speaker 2>It is not the case that Donald Trump is wildly popular.

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<v Speaker 2>He's more popular than I thought he would be in

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<v Speaker 2>his second term, but he's not wildly popular. But he

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<v Speaker 2>is about twenty or thirty probably more popular than the Democrats,

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<v Speaker 2>and especially on the question of immigration. The party looks

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<v Speaker 2>absolutely crazy compared to Trump, and I think that some

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<v Speaker 2>of the rhetorical backtracking that we've seen we can get

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<v Speaker 2>to Perdilla separately, because he escalated, but from Mayor Bass

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<v Speaker 2>from Gavin Newsom is the product of that they've recognized,

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<v Speaker 2>and I've noticed a shift prior to that backtracking. Joe

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<v Speaker 2>Biden was disgraceful in his refusal to enforce federal immigration law,

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<v Speaker 2>an absolute historic disgrace, and he cost his party dearly.

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<v Speaker 2>But he always pretended he was doing it. He always said, no, no,

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<v Speaker 2>we are enforcing the border. And then later on he said,

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<v Speaker 2>you know whose fault it is that the border is open.

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<v Speaker 2>Republicans remember that stunt where they said that they needed

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<v Speaker 2>more power from Congress, and of course that was nonsense,

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<v Speaker 2>but Biden understood at least that he had to lie

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<v Speaker 2>about it, and for a while Bass and Knewsome and

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<v Speaker 2>Shift they didn't. They just came out openly said, look,

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<v Speaker 2>we just don't believe that we should be enforcing this. Lord,

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<v Speaker 2>it's terrible, we'll stop you. Paddia is still doing that,

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<v Speaker 2>those guys are, which is probably the product of a

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<v Speaker 2>shift in opinion. Pauling that United.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, you know, my mind runs back now to

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<v Speaker 1>Biden's Secretary of Homeland Security, that despicable Mayorcus kept saying

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<v Speaker 1>over and over again in congressional hearings the border is secure.

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<v Speaker 1>I could not believe they thought they could say that

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<v Speaker 1>with a straight face, right right, and yet they did.

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<v Speaker 1>I say the other thing, that's funny you mentioned Mayor

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<v Speaker 1>Basta claric curfew. If Gavin knew some filing legal pleadings

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<v Speaker 1>about states rights and the Tenth Amendment. Trump has this

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<v Speaker 1>way of turning everybody on their heads.

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<v Speaker 5>Annoying.

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<v Speaker 2>It's so annoying because in every circumstance where the authority

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<v Speaker 2>of the states actually applies and the federal government is

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<v Speaker 2>overreaching in a way that would have been totally alien

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<v Speaker 2>to the founders and ready to everyone prior to the

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<v Speaker 2>New Deal, California is wrong, California. But the second that

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<v Speaker 2>it's something that is undisputably a federal function, there's suddenly

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<v Speaker 2>all about the Tenth Amendment. It's like they can't be

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<v Speaker 2>right even when they're trying right right.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I think the problem is that we're seeing in

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<v Speaker 1>California and other Blue states what I call the senescence

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<v Speaker 1>of modern liberalism. And we do have a cure for

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<v Speaker 1>off your purchase your older self. Well, thank you, and

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<v Speaker 1>we thank Qualitia for sponsoring this the Ricochet Podcast. And

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<v Speaker 1>now we welcome back to the podcast our great friend

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<v Speaker 1>Any McCarthy, Senior Fellow at National Review Institute, a National

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<v Speaker 1>Review contributing editor and author of Ball of Confusion, The

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<v Speaker 1>Plot to Reagan Election and Destroy Presidency. Welcome Andy. Gosh.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, as a lawyer, the Trump administration is keeping

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<v Speaker 1>you busy trying to keep up with things.

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<v Speaker 4>Boy, it's all overwhelming.

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<v Speaker 5>I wrote something like I want to say three four

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<v Speaker 5>days ago about the Khalil immigration case. I have a

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<v Speaker 5>three quarters finished, and I can't get to it because

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<v Speaker 5>it feels like every ten minutes something else happens and

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<v Speaker 5>just overwhelms the news cycle.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, now we want to ask you first about

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<v Speaker 1>the legal aspects of Trump calling up the California National Guard.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm overseas actually, and I haven't kept up with

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<v Speaker 1>all the details, but I gather he's not yet invoked

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<v Speaker 1>the Insurrection Act, which I guess is maybe the most

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<v Speaker 1>clear statue to authorize that. But I think there are

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<v Speaker 1>other means of doing it. What do you make of

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<v Speaker 1>the scene so far of as Is there any problems

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<v Speaker 1>with it? Are the criticisms from people like Governor Newsom

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<v Speaker 1>have any validity? Or what's Anny McCarthy's always candid take

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<v Speaker 1>on what Trump does here?

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<v Speaker 5>Well, it's hard from you know, I'm on the East Coast.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm watching the news just like everyone else's. I think

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<v Speaker 5>it's hard when you read the conflicting reports, and particularly

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<v Speaker 5>when you read Judge Briar's opinion in the California District Court,

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<v Speaker 5>which made a ruling yesterday that the Ninth Circuit has

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<v Speaker 5>suspended that Trump's invocation of the statute that he didn't folk,

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<v Speaker 5>which is twelve four h six, that that was unlawful.

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<v Speaker 5>We can get into why he said that, but one

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<v Speaker 5>of the what he basically argues is that there is

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<v Speaker 5>no rebellion and that there are you know, there's sporadic violence,

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<v Speaker 5>but that there isn't as much violence as the administration suggests.

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<v Speaker 5>And then, you know, you get a lot of pushback

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<v Speaker 5>from the other side that at least in the places

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<v Speaker 5>where the violence is happening, federal functions are not able

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<v Speaker 5>to go forward.

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<v Speaker 4>And even though the.

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<v Speaker 5>People who are resisting the Trump administration and the immigration authorities.

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<v Speaker 5>Even though they're not armed with firearms, there've been molotov cocktails,

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<v Speaker 5>they've thrown objects that could be lethally dangerous at the police,

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<v Speaker 5>they've boxed them in, they've made it impossible for them

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<v Speaker 5>to inform or some laws. So it's difficult to get

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<v Speaker 5>a read in part, I think, Steve, because Los Angeles

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<v Speaker 5>is also huge. We're talking about not just Los Angeles

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<v Speaker 5>the city, but Los Angeles County, which is just it's massive.

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<v Speaker 5>So you know, there are many people in Los Angeles,

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<v Speaker 5>I guess who can look out their windows and see

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<v Speaker 5>that everything's fine and there is no violence, and there

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<v Speaker 5>is no seemingly there's not a problem. But in the

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<v Speaker 5>places where there has been there have been uprisings, they've

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<v Speaker 5>been pretty intense. So there's that difficulty of getting a level,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, getting a read on how violent things are,

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<v Speaker 5>which I think is important because he's invoking rebellion and

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<v Speaker 5>I think, you know, it used to be prior to

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<v Speaker 5>January sixth if you threw around words like you know, sedition,

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<v Speaker 5>insurrection and rebellion, those words had and we actually thought that,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, you had to get to a certain level

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<v Speaker 5>of uprising before invoking those sorts of things. I think,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, the fact that they tagged a three and

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<v Speaker 5>a half hour riot where none of the security forces

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<v Speaker 5>were killed. There were a lot of injuries, but the

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<v Speaker 5>damage to the facility was so minimal that Congress was

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<v Speaker 5>able to reconvene that evening that nevertheless had to be

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<v Speaker 5>because of political reasons and insurrection, and I think it

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<v Speaker 5>kind of trivialized the concept, and now they want to

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<v Speaker 5>have an exacting definition of rebellion after, you know, after

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<v Speaker 5>we basically, you know, got rid of insurrections as something meaningful.

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<v Speaker 5>So that's a big part of Judge Brier's opinion as well.

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<v Speaker 5>But you do have to make a judgment about how

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<v Speaker 5>serious the violence is if you're going to throw words

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<v Speaker 5>like rebellion around, I still think that's true.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Well, one more quick question or point andy, before

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<v Speaker 1>I turn you over to the tender mercies of Charlie. Look,

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<v Speaker 1>I remember the Rodney King riots of nineteen ninety two,

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<v Speaker 1>which people like Maxine Waters still very much with us,

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<v Speaker 1>called a rebellion. I think she might even used the

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<v Speaker 1>term insurrection by the way she was for it, right,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, at least the people who said January sixth

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<v Speaker 1>was an insurrection for people who didn't like it. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>but it seems to me that again I've come up

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<v Speaker 1>this from a political point of view more than a

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<v Speaker 1>legal one. And one thing is is that, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>the Rodney King riots and actually one of my earliest

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<v Speaker 1>childhood memories growing up in Pasadena was seeing the distance

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<v Speaker 1>smoke from the Watts riots in nineteen sixty five. I

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<v Speaker 1>could go out in my front yard and see the

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<v Speaker 1>smoke from a long way away and what was I

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<v Speaker 1>nine years old or something, and thought, wow, this is

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<v Speaker 1>really kind of scary. The point is that it seems

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<v Speaker 1>to me there's an argument for saying, don't wait for

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<v Speaker 1>it to spread all over to the city or to

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<v Speaker 1>spread to five more places. You want to nip it

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<v Speaker 1>in the bud. And and I mean, that's why it

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<v Speaker 1>seems to me that at least the political logic and

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<v Speaker 1>the moral logic is entirely on Trump's side.

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<v Speaker 5>You know, it's interesting that you mentioned that because I've

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<v Speaker 5>had occasion in the last couple of days Steve to

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<v Speaker 5>talk about when I was I think eleven or twelve,

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<v Speaker 5>Kent State happened and that's my powerful memory and it's

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<v Speaker 5>every time we have a situation like this where we

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<v Speaker 5>think about putting federal troops into a domestic situation, I

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<v Speaker 5>can't help but go back to that, because to me,

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<v Speaker 5>more than more than tet more than Tonkin Gulf, more

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<v Speaker 5>than almost anything that happened in those years. I think

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<v Speaker 5>the Kent State debacle in which four students were killed

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<v Speaker 5>created the mythos about the Vietnam War as we remember

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<v Speaker 5>it now. To me, because I was so young and impressionable,

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<v Speaker 5>that's like the most powerful memory of that incident. And

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<v Speaker 5>every time we have something like this happen, that's what

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<v Speaker 5>I find myself.

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<v Speaker 2>Going back to Andy, I have two related questions for you,

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<v Speaker 2>and I hope you're sitting down because a very off

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<v Speaker 2>brand for me. Number One, does Trump need a law here?

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<v Speaker 2>Is there any inherent authority within the presidency to execute

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<v Speaker 2>federal law and to defend those who are executing federal

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<v Speaker 2>law from those who would resist? Two? Is this just disiible?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I am the everything's just dieable guy. I

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<v Speaker 2>tend to like courts. I tend to think in so

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<v Speaker 2>many cases where people say that's non just dieuble, there's

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<v Speaker 2>no real way of arbitrating unless you use the courts

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<v Speaker 2>even in core constitutional questions involving the political branches. But

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<v Speaker 2>this level of micromanagement surely at some point must become unsustainable.

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<v Speaker 5>Both are great questions, and Judge Bryer wrestles with the

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<v Speaker 5>justice ability, I don't think very convincingly, but he wrestles

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<v Speaker 5>with it in his opinion. I think it's a useful

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<v Speaker 5>example for this, Charlie is the Alien Enemies Act invocation,

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<v Speaker 5>because a lot of that litigation has gone back to

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<v Speaker 5>an opinion that Justice Frankfurter wrote in about a year

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<v Speaker 5>after the actual shooting in the Second World War ended,

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<v Speaker 5>where the president had invoked President Truman had invoked the

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<v Speaker 5>Alien Enemies Act.

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<v Speaker 4>It had been.

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<v Speaker 5>Invoked throughout the war, but the people who brought the

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<v Speaker 5>lawsuit wanted to claim that there was no longer a

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<v Speaker 5>declared war, that the state of war no longer obtained.

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<v Speaker 5>And what frankfort basically said, and this gets the lines

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<v Speaker 5>very blurry, I think, is that the court owes a

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<v Speaker 5>lot of deference to presidential judgment because of the nature

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<v Speaker 5>of what was being litigated there, but that courts are

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<v Speaker 5>capable of interpreting statutory terms, and what the court there

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<v Speaker 5>decided was that because Congress and the political branches together,

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<v Speaker 5>Congress and the President had not acted in any way

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00:25:33.799 --> 00:25:36.480
<v Speaker 5>to end the declaration of war, and we're taking the

419
00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:41.480
<v Speaker 5>position that the war was still ongoing even though it.

420
00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:43.200
<v Speaker 4>Was nineteen forty six.

421
00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:50.440
<v Speaker 5>The court was not going to.

422
00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:50.279
<v Speaker 4>The second guess that.

423
00:25:51.319 --> 00:25:54.119
<v Speaker 5>So they said that basically, they said, we have this

424
00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:57.279
<v Speaker 5>statutory term, you have to be able to show that

425
00:25:57.319 --> 00:26:01.039
<v Speaker 5>there is a declared war, but we're going to defer

426
00:26:01.240 --> 00:26:04.000
<v Speaker 5>a great deal to the political branches about whether the

427
00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:08.200
<v Speaker 5>declared war is still ongoing because they haven't attracted it.

428
00:26:09.279 --> 00:26:11.119
<v Speaker 5>And then they said there are other things like that

429
00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:17.000
<v Speaker 5>statue talks about aliens of the enemy force who are

430
00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:20.279
<v Speaker 5>below the age of eight of fourteen. So they said

431
00:26:20.319 --> 00:26:24.240
<v Speaker 5>that was something that a court can wrestle with because

432
00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:26.079
<v Speaker 5>it's a bright.

433
00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:26.880
<v Speaker 4>Line, easy yeah.

434
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:30.559
<v Speaker 5>And the other things that weren't in the statue or

435
00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:33.880
<v Speaker 5>were not up for debate in that case was was

436
00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:38.000
<v Speaker 5>there an invasion or a predatory incursion? And it does

437
00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:44.640
<v Speaker 5>seem like in all of these cases and this controversy

438
00:26:44.680 --> 00:26:49.079
<v Speaker 5>raises the same issues. There are always two questions. One

439
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:51.559
<v Speaker 5>is what's the objective test? That is, what is the

440
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:54.079
<v Speaker 5>thing that's in the statute that has to be established.

441
00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:57.400
<v Speaker 5>And then secondly, who gets to decide? And I don't

442
00:26:57.400 --> 00:26:59.599
<v Speaker 5>think the courts have been consistent on that. I think

443
00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:04.119
<v Speaker 5>what they basically say is, since the statute is written

444
00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:06.720
<v Speaker 5>in an objective way, in the sense that it doesn't

445
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:10.680
<v Speaker 5>say in the President's judgment, it just says, you know,

446
00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:19.079
<v Speaker 5>insurrection or rebellion, the first thing is, you know, objectively speaking,

447
00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:24.599
<v Speaker 5>is there reason to believe that that condition obtains? And

448
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:27.640
<v Speaker 5>that I think is one threshold. And then the second

449
00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:32.880
<v Speaker 5>question becomes, if the president decides it obtains, then how

450
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:37.319
<v Speaker 5>much are we going to subject that to scrutiny? And

451
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:41.200
<v Speaker 5>one of interestingly, in the oral argument in California, one

452
00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:45.359
<v Speaker 5>of the questions that Judge Briar pressed the Trump Justice

453
00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:48.920
<v Speaker 5>Department on was what if President Trump, in order to

454
00:27:49.960 --> 00:27:56.559
<v Speaker 5>invoke twelve four h six, had decided there was a rebellion.

455
00:27:57.400 --> 00:28:01.160
<v Speaker 5>He had absolutely no evidence that there was a rebellion.

456
00:28:01.240 --> 00:28:05.480
<v Speaker 5>He just on his own, ifsay Dixon, it's a rebellion,

457
00:28:05.960 --> 00:28:09.640
<v Speaker 5>does a court have to accept that? The administration's position

458
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:13.279
<v Speaker 5>is that the court has to accept it. Briar's position

459
00:28:13.400 --> 00:28:15.599
<v Speaker 5>is that the court doesn't have to accept it, so

460
00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:16.880
<v Speaker 5>it seems to me there's not a.

461
00:28:17.079 --> 00:28:19.519
<v Speaker 4>Good answer to your question.

462
00:28:19.559 --> 00:28:22.680
<v Speaker 5>There's a lot of blurriness here, and it seems to

463
00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:28.279
<v Speaker 5>me that there's there's again there's an initial threshold of

464
00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:34.319
<v Speaker 5>can we agree that there are enough facts that it's

465
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:39.200
<v Speaker 5>at least plausible that the statutory term has been met,

466
00:28:39.559 --> 00:28:42.000
<v Speaker 5>and then if it has how much difference do we

467
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:45.359
<v Speaker 5>of to the to the president to in terms of

468
00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:49.839
<v Speaker 5>invoking it. So that's not a very satisfying answer, but

469
00:28:50.119 --> 00:28:53.240
<v Speaker 5>I think that's where we're at in terms of whether

470
00:28:53.720 --> 00:28:57.039
<v Speaker 5>the president needs the law at all. I think it

471
00:28:57.160 --> 00:29:02.000
<v Speaker 5>depends on what it is the president wants to accomplish,

472
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:04.839
<v Speaker 5>because you have this crash, which I think also leads

473
00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:10.839
<v Speaker 5>to some blurriness between the position that the Justice Department

474
00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:14.920
<v Speaker 5>and the Office of Legal Counsel have taken historically, which

475
00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:19.240
<v Speaker 5>I think is best articulated in this nineteen seventy one

476
00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:22.599
<v Speaker 5>memo which was written by William Rehnquist when he was

477
00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:27.359
<v Speaker 5>running OLC at the Justice Department, which talks about the

478
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:36.440
<v Speaker 5>protective function of the meaning the president's authority to use

479
00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:41.680
<v Speaker 5>the military in order to carry out executive functions that

480
00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:47.160
<v Speaker 5>are his lawful, legitimate functions. In the executive branch, and

481
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:51.759
<v Speaker 5>that crashes into POSI Coomatadis, which is enacted at the

482
00:29:51.880 --> 00:29:54.640
<v Speaker 5>end of the toward the end of the nineteenth century

483
00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:58.319
<v Speaker 5>and basically says that in the absence of a congressional

484
00:29:58.359 --> 00:30:03.599
<v Speaker 5>authorization or something clear in the constitution, the president cannot

485
00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:10.000
<v Speaker 5>use the military for domestic law enforcement functions. So it

486
00:30:10.119 --> 00:30:14.119
<v Speaker 5>seems clear that if what the president is calling the

487
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:19.079
<v Speaker 5>military and to do is protect federal facilities like courthouses

488
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:23.240
<v Speaker 5>or federal buildings, the military can do that because that's

489
00:30:23.319 --> 00:30:29.079
<v Speaker 5>not a law enforcement function. There's also authority for the

490
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:33.000
<v Speaker 5>proposition that if people are blocking, say.

491
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:36.319
<v Speaker 4>Facilities and interstate.

492
00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:42.720
<v Speaker 5>Commerce like railroads or highways, and that were to prevent

493
00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:46.400
<v Speaker 5>something like the mails from being delivered, the president could

494
00:30:46.440 --> 00:30:49.680
<v Speaker 5>dispatch the military to open up those facilities to make

495
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:53.400
<v Speaker 5>sure that the mail could be delivered, and might in

496
00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:58.359
<v Speaker 5>fact even be able to use the military forces to

497
00:30:58.359 --> 00:31:01.319
<v Speaker 5>deliver the mail, because that's not a law enforcement function.

498
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:04.559
<v Speaker 5>I think where it gets tricky, and Rich asked me

499
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:08.880
<v Speaker 5>this yesterday about in the podcast. I'm less confident now

500
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:11.519
<v Speaker 5>than I was when I gave that answer, because I've

501
00:31:11.559 --> 00:31:15.319
<v Speaker 5>looked a lot more into this since then. The question

502
00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:19.640
<v Speaker 5>is what if the president you have these disruptions of

503
00:31:19.720 --> 00:31:23.880
<v Speaker 5>the ability of the agents to enforce the immigration law,

504
00:31:23.960 --> 00:31:27.119
<v Speaker 5>people blocking the places where they want to go in

505
00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:30.519
<v Speaker 5>and do the raids, people trying to prevent the agents

506
00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:32.680
<v Speaker 5>from getting it, people they want to place under.

507
00:31:32.519 --> 00:31:33.559
<v Speaker 4>Arrest, that sort of thing.

508
00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:39.839
<v Speaker 5>Can the president dispatch the military to protect the federal

509
00:31:39.920 --> 00:31:45.799
<v Speaker 5>function of enforcing the immigration laws in a sanctuary city

510
00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:51.039
<v Speaker 5>where the local law enforcement they're not allowed to obstruct,

511
00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:56.240
<v Speaker 5>but they're not required to help the federal authorities, and

512
00:31:56.279 --> 00:32:01.960
<v Speaker 5>where people are clearly obstructing that function. If it gets

513
00:32:01.960 --> 00:32:06.160
<v Speaker 5>serious enough that the federal law enforcement people cannot carry

514
00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:10.160
<v Speaker 5>out their duties, can you send the military along to

515
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:15.400
<v Speaker 5>protect them? And when does that evolve from a protective

516
00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:19.480
<v Speaker 5>mission where you're basically making sure the agents are safe

517
00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:24.000
<v Speaker 5>when they go about the duty of, say, arresting someone

518
00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:27.759
<v Speaker 5>or carrying out a raid, or are the military guys

519
00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:32.480
<v Speaker 5>actually doing law enforcement? Is that so close to the

520
00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:36.119
<v Speaker 5>actual execution of the law that in the absence of

521
00:32:36.200 --> 00:32:40.279
<v Speaker 5>congressional authorization, it's something that should be illegal. And I

522
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:43.720
<v Speaker 5>don't think that's been resolved. The more I look into it,

523
00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:45.839
<v Speaker 5>the more I think it's a blurry line.

524
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:50.920
<v Speaker 1>Hey, I've got to interrupt here. Maybe you started your

525
00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:54.319
<v Speaker 1>business because it was your passion, but fell into HR

526
00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:57.960
<v Speaker 1>as your business got going. Nobody's an expert in all areas,

527
00:32:57.960 --> 00:33:01.480
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528
00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:04.240
<v Speaker 1>one solution that can give you your time back to do

529
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:08.079
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530
00:33:08.279 --> 00:33:11.599
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531
00:33:11.720 --> 00:33:16.359
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532
00:33:16.519 --> 00:33:22.000
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533
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:25.160
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534
00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:29.599
<v Speaker 1>four thousand companies trust Bamboo HR because it's an integrated

535
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:32.480
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536
00:33:32.680 --> 00:33:37.599
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537
00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:42.519
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538
00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:46.880
<v Speaker 1>very easy to love. Bamboohr handles everything from hiring and

539
00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:51.319
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540
00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:56.359
<v Speaker 1>Bamboo HR, the intuitive interface stands out Immediately take a

541
00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:59.119
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542
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543
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544
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<v Speaker 1>Check it out for yourself with a free demo at

545
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:18.679
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546
00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:23.039
<v Speaker 1>com slash free demo. And we thank bamboo hr for

547
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:28.960
<v Speaker 1>sponsoring this the Recochet podcast. Well, this seems to me

548
00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:31.280
<v Speaker 1>a blurry line that a lot of modern trends have

549
00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:33.679
<v Speaker 1>brought us to. I mean, I repair to a few

550
00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:38.239
<v Speaker 1>simple things. First of all, curtis right case the president

551
00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:40.719
<v Speaker 1>is the sole organ of foreign policy. Now you say

552
00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:43.679
<v Speaker 1>this isn't a foreign policy question, except maybe it is

553
00:34:43.719 --> 00:34:45.840
<v Speaker 1>in a certain way that I mean, the left says

554
00:34:45.880 --> 00:34:48.119
<v Speaker 1>we should live in a world without borders. Well, guess

555
00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:50.960
<v Speaker 1>what that means foreign policy is different. I'm sure I'm

556
00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:53.440
<v Speaker 1>just using their argument against them for a moment. The

557
00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:55.960
<v Speaker 1>other one is you mentioned Frankfurter. Was he the one

558
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:58.400
<v Speaker 1>who said the Constitution is not a suicide pact? Or

559
00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:02.480
<v Speaker 1>was that Jackson? I don't remember Jackson, Robert jack Jackson, Right, okay,

560
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:04.320
<v Speaker 1>but that you know famous line of that same era

561
00:35:04.360 --> 00:35:06.880
<v Speaker 1>of cases that you were invoking, And I don't know, Andy,

562
00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:09.920
<v Speaker 1>I just get frustrated with trying to parse this out

563
00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:13.400
<v Speaker 1>in legal terms. I guess here I'm a strong executive

564
00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:16.519
<v Speaker 1>power man, and that the checks on him ultimately should

565
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:19.960
<v Speaker 1>be political and popular. But popular, I mean a sentiment

566
00:35:19.960 --> 00:35:24.239
<v Speaker 1>of the American people and Congress is not without remedies

567
00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:27.599
<v Speaker 1>available to it. I mean they're difficult. Impeachment takes time

568
00:35:27.639 --> 00:35:29.840
<v Speaker 1>if you want to go to the most extreme one.

569
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:32.760
<v Speaker 1>But I don't know, this seems like I see, I'm

570
00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:35.840
<v Speaker 1>I'm attacking your profession. I'm sorry, Andy, I can't help it.

571
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:39.159
<v Speaker 1>But as a constitutionalist rather than as a lawyer, and

572
00:35:39.159 --> 00:35:42.239
<v Speaker 1>I know there's a blurred line there. I just get

573
00:35:42.280 --> 00:35:44.760
<v Speaker 1>very frustrated with the way this always ends up in court,

574
00:35:44.800 --> 00:35:47.599
<v Speaker 1>the way Topeville said all of our disputes we're gonna go.

575
00:35:48.440 --> 00:35:51.639
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, there's a lot to that, you know. I always

576
00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:56.320
<v Speaker 5>what I've found over the years, especially after working on

577
00:35:56.440 --> 00:35:59.719
<v Speaker 5>national security cases instead of you know, my last ten

578
00:35:59.800 --> 00:36:03.239
<v Speaker 5>years as a prosecutor, I did much more national security

579
00:36:03.239 --> 00:36:07.480
<v Speaker 5>stuff than cops and robbers stuff. And what you really,

580
00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:12.079
<v Speaker 5>I think, what the impression you come away with in

581
00:36:12.119 --> 00:36:14.760
<v Speaker 5>a much more powerful way, is that we like to

582
00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:17.760
<v Speaker 5>think of ourselves as a rule of law society, but

583
00:36:17.800 --> 00:36:21.280
<v Speaker 5>we're a political society. The most important decisions that get

584
00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:25.119
<v Speaker 5>made are political ones, and I think we delude ourselves

585
00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:29.599
<v Speaker 5>sometimes into the actually they can't even with respect to

586
00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:32.679
<v Speaker 5>the most important decisions that we might have to make

587
00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:36.559
<v Speaker 5>for the protection of the country. You can't make antecedent

588
00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:40.599
<v Speaker 5>and Hamilton recognized us right, because the threats to a

589
00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:46.039
<v Speaker 5>country could be infinite. You can't make antecedent laws that

590
00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:49.440
<v Speaker 5>bind the government in a way that they might not be,

591
00:36:49.639 --> 00:36:53.639
<v Speaker 5>that the government might not be able to respond in

592
00:36:54.840 --> 00:36:59.599
<v Speaker 5>a meaningful way to kinds of threats that you haven't anticipated.

593
00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:06.840
<v Speaker 5>So I think the thing that's challenging about Trump's presidency,

594
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:09.719
<v Speaker 5>and I think this might be best seen in the

595
00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:18.039
<v Speaker 5>in the immunity the argument, which you know, as time

596
00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:21.639
<v Speaker 5>goes by, I actually think Charlie you noted, I think

597
00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:25.079
<v Speaker 5>at the time when the when the Supreme Court made

598
00:37:25.079 --> 00:37:30.119
<v Speaker 5>their decision about whether the president had immunity from criminal

599
00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:33.920
<v Speaker 5>prosecution or not, which of course is not in the Constitution.

600
00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:37.480
<v Speaker 5>But at the same time, I think everybody common sense

601
00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:40.920
<v Speaker 5>wise knows that the president has to carry out certain

602
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:49.199
<v Speaker 5>particular executive functions and he can't be stopped from carrying

603
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:54.000
<v Speaker 5>them out by criminal statutes. So that's the that's the tension,

604
00:37:55.159 --> 00:37:58.119
<v Speaker 5>and I think looking back on it, Justice Barrett has

605
00:37:58.119 --> 00:38:01.159
<v Speaker 5>a much more modest take on that than the rest

606
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:04.960
<v Speaker 5>of the majority did. But the broader point I wanted

607
00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:08.000
<v Speaker 5>to make about Trump is that we went two hundred

608
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:12.199
<v Speaker 5>and thirty years without having to have that sketched out

609
00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:18.800
<v Speaker 5>in an apidictic way, because everybody kind of knew that

610
00:38:18.840 --> 00:38:22.000
<v Speaker 5>there were these norms. You know that the president has

611
00:38:22.039 --> 00:38:26.119
<v Speaker 5>to make very hard decisions and some of them are

612
00:38:26.199 --> 00:38:30.199
<v Speaker 5>going to be legally dubious, and we can't have a

613
00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:33.800
<v Speaker 5>situation where the next administration is going to come in

614
00:38:33.880 --> 00:38:36.519
<v Speaker 5>and prosecute the president or what he did in the

615
00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:40.679
<v Speaker 5>last administration unless it's so blatantly criminal that it can't

616
00:38:40.719 --> 00:38:44.880
<v Speaker 5>be that its criminality can't be ignored, because you can't

617
00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:47.440
<v Speaker 5>have a function in government that way. Right If the

618
00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:51.440
<v Speaker 5>president has to worry about being prosecuted or civilly sued

619
00:38:51.480 --> 00:38:55.000
<v Speaker 5>while he's making these decisions that are of great consequence

620
00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:57.719
<v Speaker 5>of the country, the government can't function. We went two

621
00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:00.519
<v Speaker 5>hundred and thirty years without a court having to to

622
00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:04.719
<v Speaker 5>describe what the parameters are or at least grapple with them,

623
00:39:04.760 --> 00:39:08.119
<v Speaker 5>because you know, we still don't really know exactly what

624
00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:11.400
<v Speaker 5>the lines are even after that decision. But the thing

625
00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:14.679
<v Speaker 5>is everything, there's a number of things Steve you talked about,

626
00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:18.039
<v Speaker 5>you know, politics rather than law, and a lot of

627
00:39:18.039 --> 00:39:20.719
<v Speaker 5>the important stuff that goes on and government is covered

628
00:39:20.760 --> 00:39:25.519
<v Speaker 5>by norms more than laws because once people get into

629
00:39:25.559 --> 00:39:32.519
<v Speaker 5>these once you get into an important government position, your

630
00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:36.760
<v Speaker 5>bad calls are not going to be subject to criminal

631
00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:41.599
<v Speaker 5>prosecution or civil suit. So what controls you to stay

632
00:39:41.639 --> 00:39:46.440
<v Speaker 5>within the four corners of your authority is more norms

633
00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:52.400
<v Speaker 5>than law. And I think we function that way fine

634
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:56.679
<v Speaker 5>for a very long time. But Trump, I think more

635
00:39:56.719 --> 00:40:00.800
<v Speaker 5>than any of his predecessors. And this isn't to say

636
00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:04.679
<v Speaker 5>he invented this. I just think he pushes it harder

637
00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:07.880
<v Speaker 5>than the rest. But he finds the loose joints in

638
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:11.840
<v Speaker 5>the system and he pushes them. And I think, you know,

639
00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:14.920
<v Speaker 5>I've had this argument with people who say he wants

640
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:18.519
<v Speaker 5>to be a dictator. You know, he's accumulating power to himself.

641
00:40:19.159 --> 00:40:22.320
<v Speaker 5>I don't think he's got I don't think he's got

642
00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:25.519
<v Speaker 5>a realistic idea that he's going to be president forever.

643
00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:27.239
<v Speaker 5>I think he knows he's going to be president for

644
00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:32.079
<v Speaker 5>four years. And I think in the current very paralyzed system,

645
00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:35.760
<v Speaker 5>that we're in, he's basically got two years to get

646
00:40:36.280 --> 00:40:41.320
<v Speaker 5>stuff done. He has no prayer of getting much statutory

647
00:40:42.159 --> 00:40:49.079
<v Speaker 5>stuff done. And what he's trying to do is identify

648
00:40:49.239 --> 00:40:53.239
<v Speaker 5>all the things that he can do unilaterally and push

649
00:40:53.440 --> 00:40:56.800
<v Speaker 5>as hard as he can in the directions that he

650
00:40:56.840 --> 00:41:01.079
<v Speaker 5>wants to take the country. And a lot of it

651
00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:04.239
<v Speaker 5>looks like, you know, Charlie and I both talked about,

652
00:41:04.360 --> 00:41:07.920
<v Speaker 5>you know, the pretextual use of emergencies in order to

653
00:41:08.840 --> 00:41:11.199
<v Speaker 5>you know, to do things that a president shouldn't be

654
00:41:11.239 --> 00:41:16.400
<v Speaker 5>able to do, essentially legislate. He's looking for all the

655
00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:19.280
<v Speaker 5>things that he can do unilaterally, even if he needs

656
00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:23.199
<v Speaker 5>a pretext to do it. And I don't know that

657
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:26.320
<v Speaker 5>we've ever had a president. I mean, we're only six

658
00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:30.079
<v Speaker 5>months in and I feel exhausted trying to, you know,

659
00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:31.599
<v Speaker 5>to watch him every day. But I don't know that

660
00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:35.719
<v Speaker 5>we've ever had a president who tries to to push

661
00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:41.960
<v Speaker 5>the outer limits of his authority so hard, so fast,

662
00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:45.199
<v Speaker 5>to the point where now courts are being called in

663
00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:48.039
<v Speaker 5>to try to draw lines, just like they did with

664
00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:52.400
<v Speaker 5>the with the immunity. I think that's the stress on

665
00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:52.960
<v Speaker 5>the system.

666
00:41:53.559 --> 00:41:58.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, yes, but to what extent, andy is that stress

667
00:41:58.840 --> 00:42:05.360
<v Speaker 2>also being created by the left, and I'm thinking the

668
00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:12.320
<v Speaker 2>immunity case, the immunity case was created by law fair right.

669
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:17.559
<v Speaker 2>And then in this case. One of the problems here

670
00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:22.159
<v Speaker 2>is that you have the governor of California is trying

671
00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:25.800
<v Speaker 2>to subvert immigration law, or at least is on the

672
00:42:25.880 --> 00:42:33.320
<v Speaker 2>side of those who are and maybe then Trump pushes

673
00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:36.159
<v Speaker 2>it too far. But it seems that we have a

674
00:42:36.159 --> 00:42:41.239
<v Speaker 2>perfect storm where you have one side pushes everything over

675
00:42:41.360 --> 00:42:43.159
<v Speaker 2>and then Trump says, oh, well, I'm going to push

676
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:45.079
<v Speaker 2>it over in the other direction, and then we expect

677
00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:48.000
<v Speaker 2>the courts to fix this Or Am I just being

678
00:42:48.039 --> 00:42:48.760
<v Speaker 2>two partisan?

679
00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:50.000
<v Speaker 5>No?

680
00:42:50.760 --> 00:42:51.519
<v Speaker 4>I don't think so.

681
00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:56.559
<v Speaker 5>I think, you know, law fair is complicated because the

682
00:42:56.599 --> 00:43:02.599
<v Speaker 5>most preposterous case or cases are like the New York cases,

683
00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:07.559
<v Speaker 5>you know, Bragg's case. I don't think, you know, I

684
00:43:07.559 --> 00:43:09.599
<v Speaker 5>looked at this very closely for a long time. I

685
00:43:09.639 --> 00:43:13.920
<v Speaker 5>didn't agree with Jack Smith's, especially the J six case,

686
00:43:14.400 --> 00:43:16.960
<v Speaker 5>because I think he was stretching statutes to the limit

687
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:20.400
<v Speaker 5>to try to criminalize what Trump did. But you know,

688
00:43:20.440 --> 00:43:22.400
<v Speaker 5>I was in the Justice Department for a long time.

689
00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:25.559
<v Speaker 5>There's no way that an attack on the capital of

690
00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:27.960
<v Speaker 5>the kind that happened on January sixth would not have

691
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:32.559
<v Speaker 5>been investigated as a as a criminal event. And even

692
00:43:32.599 --> 00:43:37.159
<v Speaker 5>if we quibble of whether the statutes that were stretched

693
00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:40.239
<v Speaker 5>the way they were applied to what Trump did, there's

694
00:43:40.280 --> 00:43:44.360
<v Speaker 5>no question that Trump did appalling things on January sixth

695
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:46.760
<v Speaker 5>and the run up to it, which would have justified

696
00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:49.840
<v Speaker 5>at least investigating him, right. And then the Florida thing,

697
00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:55.280
<v Speaker 5>I think that was you know, you can argue about

698
00:43:55.320 --> 00:43:57.519
<v Speaker 5>whether they should have brought it criminally or not, but

699
00:43:57.559 --> 00:44:04.199
<v Speaker 5>that's there was definitely conduct that was involved there. You know,

700
00:44:04.519 --> 00:44:07.199
<v Speaker 5>did they overdo it, Yes, they overdid it. And was

701
00:44:07.239 --> 00:44:11.000
<v Speaker 5>there a coordinated strategy in order to bring cases at

702
00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:13.760
<v Speaker 5>a particular time that would hit in the run up

703
00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:17.840
<v Speaker 5>to the election. There absolutely was, But it's just it's complicated.

704
00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:23.239
<v Speaker 5>I think the sanctuary city stuff is much more on

705
00:44:23.440 --> 00:44:27.440
<v Speaker 5>point for what we're talking about, because, you know, if

706
00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:30.760
<v Speaker 5>you look at what Judge Bryer wrote, he wrote a

707
00:44:30.760 --> 00:44:33.840
<v Speaker 5>thirty six page opinion, which means he must have he

708
00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:37.119
<v Speaker 5>had to start writing at the minute he got the case.

709
00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:44.119
<v Speaker 5>But you know, there's nothing in that opinion about sanctuary

710
00:44:44.119 --> 00:44:47.119
<v Speaker 5>cities or sanctuary policies or the fact that the federal

711
00:44:47.159 --> 00:44:50.480
<v Speaker 5>government has the right and the power and the authority to,

712
00:44:51.559 --> 00:44:54.199
<v Speaker 5>you know, to enforce the immigration laws, and that the

713
00:44:54.239 --> 00:44:59.599
<v Speaker 5>states are effectively obstructing the enforcement of the immigration laws.

714
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:03.360
<v Speaker 5>So the whole opinion is kind of it's artificial in

715
00:45:03.400 --> 00:45:06.039
<v Speaker 5>the sense that what you're talking about is like, there's

716
00:45:06.159 --> 00:45:08.360
<v Speaker 5>violence in the streets and is it enough of an

717
00:45:08.400 --> 00:45:11.280
<v Speaker 5>impediment on the federal agents And we're not really talking

718
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:14.639
<v Speaker 5>about why there's a problem and that whole.

719
00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:18.000
<v Speaker 2>And I'll finish with this, but that's the part of

720
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:20.079
<v Speaker 2>this that's making me crazy because I am a very

721
00:45:20.159 --> 00:45:23.480
<v Speaker 2>big fan of the decision of the Supreme Court in Princeville,

722
00:45:23.599 --> 00:45:26.400
<v Speaker 2>United States, which was from nineteen ninety seven, which is

723
00:45:26.760 --> 00:45:31.360
<v Speaker 2>the justification for sanctuary cities insofar as jurisdictions in America

724
00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:34.239
<v Speaker 2>are not obliged to help the federal government. That case

725
00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:38.639
<v Speaker 2>was a gun case. It was a case that came

726
00:45:38.719 --> 00:45:42.840
<v Speaker 2>about after the Brady Act because the Brady Act initially

727
00:45:42.880 --> 00:45:46.800
<v Speaker 2>required the states to enforce certain portions of federal law.

728
00:45:47.039 --> 00:45:49.440
<v Speaker 2>And Scalia writes this opinion and he says, no, you're

729
00:45:49.440 --> 00:45:53.039
<v Speaker 2>not allowed to do that. That's commandeering. So whenever people

730
00:45:53.079 --> 00:45:56.559
<v Speaker 2>complain about sanctuary cities, I always jump in and say, hey,

731
00:45:56.719 --> 00:46:00.840
<v Speaker 2>oh yeah, terrible politically, but legally, we actually like some

732
00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:03.960
<v Speaker 2>of the principles that are in play here. But California,

733
00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:06.880
<v Speaker 2>in its rhetoric and in its actions, has gone so

734
00:46:07.480 --> 00:46:10.760
<v Speaker 2>much further than Prince and it really annoys me because

735
00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:14.199
<v Speaker 2>in any other circumstance it would be very obvious that

736
00:46:14.280 --> 00:46:18.400
<v Speaker 2>they are behaving like George Wallace. They're the ones who

737
00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:24.000
<v Speaker 2>are redolent of the Confederacy and of the massive resistance,

738
00:46:24.639 --> 00:46:28.119
<v Speaker 2>not Trump. And yet somehow in the press this gets

739
00:46:28.280 --> 00:46:31.719
<v Speaker 2>cast as he's breaking norms. Well, he might be pushing

740
00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:35.239
<v Speaker 2>it to the edges. But we had this fight, right,

741
00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:37.199
<v Speaker 2>We had this fight over and over again. Are you

742
00:46:37.239 --> 00:46:39.760
<v Speaker 2>allowed to nullify federal law? No, you're bloody well not.

743
00:46:40.519 --> 00:46:41.360
<v Speaker 2>I've sent my piece.

744
00:46:42.400 --> 00:46:42.719
<v Speaker 4>Well.

745
00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:46.519
<v Speaker 5>I do want to say though, that it's this is

746
00:46:46.559 --> 00:46:49.079
<v Speaker 5>an interesting area, and it's been a kind of a

747
00:46:49.079 --> 00:46:53.559
<v Speaker 5>bugaboo of mine for a long time because when the

748
00:46:54.280 --> 00:47:00.480
<v Speaker 5>Constitution was ratified, the thing that was certain was that

749
00:47:00.519 --> 00:47:06.719
<v Speaker 5>the states had authority over who was lawfully in their territory,

750
00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:10.000
<v Speaker 5>and what wasn't clear was whether there was a federal

751
00:47:11.239 --> 00:47:16.119
<v Speaker 5>enforcement role. The Supreme Court over about a century's time,

752
00:47:16.239 --> 00:47:22.360
<v Speaker 5>beginning in the early twentieth century, probably late nineteenth century,

753
00:47:24.440 --> 00:47:29.320
<v Speaker 5>derived a federal role out of basically two things. One

754
00:47:29.679 --> 00:47:32.599
<v Speaker 5>the notion that the national government is sovereign and has

755
00:47:32.679 --> 00:47:36.719
<v Speaker 5>to protect the borders and is in charge of foreign policy,

756
00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:40.719
<v Speaker 5>is in charge of protecting Americans who are abroad, So

757
00:47:40.760 --> 00:47:42.880
<v Speaker 5>that that was one part of it. And then the

758
00:47:42.920 --> 00:47:48.480
<v Speaker 5>other part is Congress's the constitutional assignment to Congress an

759
00:47:48.559 --> 00:47:52.840
<v Speaker 5>Article one of naturalization authority, you know, setting the terms

760
00:47:52.880 --> 00:47:59.519
<v Speaker 5>of naturalization. From those two things, the court derived a

761
00:47:59.559 --> 00:48:06.000
<v Speaker 5>federal responsibility over immigration enforcement. And then I think what

762
00:48:06.159 --> 00:48:09.559
<v Speaker 5>happened is probably what invariably happens, which is, once the

763
00:48:09.599 --> 00:48:14.920
<v Speaker 5>federal courts invent a federal responsibility, it swallows up the

764
00:48:14.960 --> 00:48:20.039
<v Speaker 5>state responsibility. But for a long time we went along

765
00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:27.679
<v Speaker 5>and this arrangement worked because federal statutory authority in terms

766
00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:31.679
<v Speaker 5>of enforcement of immigration is very strong. It's very pro

767
00:48:32.519 --> 00:48:36.239
<v Speaker 5>law enforcement. Charlie, you've had to deal with it in

768
00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:40.880
<v Speaker 5>a way that you know that Steve and I happened.

769
00:48:41.119 --> 00:48:44.840
<v Speaker 5>But I mean, they're, you know, they're pretty formidable laws.

770
00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:49.800
<v Speaker 5>So you could tolerate a system where the states had

771
00:48:49.960 --> 00:48:54.280
<v Speaker 5>the authority to enforce immigration only in so far as

772
00:48:54.280 --> 00:48:57.880
<v Speaker 5>it was consistent with federal law. But then what happened

773
00:48:57.960 --> 00:49:01.000
<v Speaker 5>was Obama comes along and he says, no, no, no,

774
00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:05.119
<v Speaker 5>you don't have to use States don't have to comport

775
00:49:05.719 --> 00:49:11.400
<v Speaker 5>with federal statutory law. You have to comport with Obama

776
00:49:11.480 --> 00:49:16.800
<v Speaker 5>administration immigration policy, which is to not enforce the law,

777
00:49:17.039 --> 00:49:22.320
<v Speaker 5>the federal laws. And I think Scalia rightly said that

778
00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:25.480
<v Speaker 5>if you know, if it was presented to the States

779
00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:29.480
<v Speaker 5>at the convention in Philadelphia in seventeen eighty seven, that

780
00:49:31.719 --> 00:49:36.719
<v Speaker 5>you can't protect yourself immigration wise, because that's going to

781
00:49:36.760 --> 00:49:40.280
<v Speaker 5>be a federal responsibility, and if they decide to not

782
00:49:40.719 --> 00:49:44.039
<v Speaker 5>enforce their own laws, you can't. Then nobody would have

783
00:49:44.119 --> 00:49:47.440
<v Speaker 5>joined this compact. The Constitution wouldn't have been ratified.

784
00:49:48.440 --> 00:49:51.639
<v Speaker 1>Right Well, Andy, I you know, I kept thinking that

785
00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:54.920
<v Speaker 1>if nothing else, this is kind of glib at kind

786
00:49:54.920 --> 00:49:57.960
<v Speaker 1>of serious point. If nothing else, Trump has taken the

787
00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:01.079
<v Speaker 1>gridlock in Congress and moved it to the judiciary. I mean,

788
00:50:01.119 --> 00:50:03.800
<v Speaker 1>we're just jamming up the courts with all these problems,

789
00:50:03.840 --> 00:50:06.159
<v Speaker 1>right But one reason we love to want to have

790
00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:07.960
<v Speaker 1>you back over and over again, Andy, is there's no

791
00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:10.039
<v Speaker 1>gridlock when we have you here. You sort out a

792
00:50:10.079 --> 00:50:12.480
<v Speaker 1>lot of these problems for us and a lot more

793
00:50:12.519 --> 00:50:14.159
<v Speaker 1>always to be said, but we'll have to have you

794
00:50:14.199 --> 00:50:16.440
<v Speaker 1>back soon for the sequels, of which I'm sure there

795
00:50:16.440 --> 00:50:17.519
<v Speaker 1>are going to be many.

796
00:50:18.239 --> 00:50:21.719
<v Speaker 4>Probably sooner than later. But great to talk to you guys.

797
00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:26.119
<v Speaker 1>Thanks Andy, we'll see you soon. See you well, all right, Charlie.

798
00:50:26.280 --> 00:50:30.559
<v Speaker 1>You know our listeners can't see that wonderful, splashy blue

799
00:50:30.559 --> 00:50:34.320
<v Speaker 1>flower print shirt you're wearing. It just screams Florida. And

800
00:50:35.239 --> 00:50:40.119
<v Speaker 1>also you're obviously back in full fitness after your belt

801
00:50:40.119 --> 00:50:43.239
<v Speaker 1>with the plague whatever it was. And I'm guessing it's

802
00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:45.599
<v Speaker 1>because of the sheets you've been using.

803
00:50:46.159 --> 00:50:48.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh absolutely, And of course I used my sheets more

804
00:50:48.440 --> 00:50:50.960
<v Speaker 2>than ever when I was sick, and they were luxurious

805
00:50:51.039 --> 00:50:54.840
<v Speaker 2>to lie on because they're made by Cozy Earth. So

806
00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:59.239
<v Speaker 2>Cozy Earth not only keeps me cool in what is

807
00:50:59.320 --> 00:51:03.880
<v Speaker 2>now the full fledged Florida summer, but it nursed me

808
00:51:04.599 --> 00:51:06.960
<v Speaker 2>back to hell. So thank you Cozy Earth for that.

809
00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:11.960
<v Speaker 2>And that's because Cozy Earth uses the best fabrics and

810
00:51:12.119 --> 00:51:17.599
<v Speaker 2>textiles that provide the ultimate ingredient for luxurious softness that

811
00:51:17.719 --> 00:51:20.760
<v Speaker 2>lets me sleep like a baby. And here's the thing.

812
00:51:20.800 --> 00:51:22.920
<v Speaker 2>They're not just soft.

813
00:51:23.119 --> 00:51:23.360
<v Speaker 4>There.

814
00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:27.559
<v Speaker 2>Weave fabric is enhanced for a durability that won't pull

815
00:51:27.679 --> 00:51:32.079
<v Speaker 2>and best of all, Cozy Earth bedding products have a

816
00:51:32.239 --> 00:51:38.000
<v Speaker 2>one hundred night sleep trial and a ten year warranty.

817
00:51:38.119 --> 00:51:42.239
<v Speaker 2>That's a whole decade of cool quality sleep. What is that?

818
00:51:42.320 --> 00:51:45.880
<v Speaker 2>Three years perhaps of sleeping, maybe more, depends how much

819
00:51:46.360 --> 00:51:49.679
<v Speaker 2>you sleep. If you have small children like me, you

820
00:51:49.760 --> 00:51:51.800
<v Speaker 2>sleep less than you shared, which means you don't get

821
00:51:51.840 --> 00:51:53.760
<v Speaker 2>to spend as much time on the cozy air sheets

822
00:51:53.800 --> 00:51:56.239
<v Speaker 2>as you want. But what you do spend is terrific.

823
00:51:57.039 --> 00:52:00.320
<v Speaker 2>Luxury should not be out of reach. So you can

824
00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:04.320
<v Speaker 2>go to cozyer dot com and use code ricochet obviously

825
00:52:04.519 --> 00:52:07.440
<v Speaker 2>r I C O C H E T, and if

826
00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:10.599
<v Speaker 2>you do, you will get up to forty percent off

827
00:52:10.639 --> 00:52:15.559
<v Speaker 2>cozyerth's best selling temperature regulating sheets, apparel and more. Trust me,

828
00:52:15.599 --> 00:52:18.199
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829
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:22.599
<v Speaker 2>the difference the very first night. That's cozy earth dot com.

830
00:52:22.639 --> 00:52:28.760
<v Speaker 2>The code is ricochet, Sleep Cooler, lounge lighter, and stay cozy.

831
00:52:30.559 --> 00:52:33.000
<v Speaker 1>All right, Charles, let's get out today with a little

832
00:52:33.039 --> 00:52:36.800
<v Speaker 1>cultural news. Boy. I got a reminder of how old

833
00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:39.079
<v Speaker 1>I'm getting when the news came of the death of

834
00:52:39.079 --> 00:52:40.880
<v Speaker 1>Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys, at the age of

835
00:52:40.920 --> 00:52:44.199
<v Speaker 1>eighty two, i'd lost trap. Of course, everyone's getting to

836
00:52:44.199 --> 00:52:46.280
<v Speaker 1>be a ja two from that old rocker generation of

837
00:52:46.320 --> 00:52:48.000
<v Speaker 1>the sixties. But you know, I grew up with the

838
00:52:48.039 --> 00:52:51.920
<v Speaker 1>beach boys in California. Was a beach Gord, Laguna Beach, Malibu,

839
00:52:51.960 --> 00:52:53.920
<v Speaker 1>all the places they used to sing about.

840
00:52:54.239 --> 00:52:54.480
<v Speaker 5>Uh.

841
00:52:54.519 --> 00:52:57.679
<v Speaker 1>And it's very emblematic of California in those days, you know,

842
00:52:57.719 --> 00:53:00.679
<v Speaker 1>the whole story of the Wilson and the the Mike

843
00:53:00.800 --> 00:53:03.159
<v Speaker 1>Love and all the families involved in it, as they

844
00:53:03.159 --> 00:53:05.280
<v Speaker 1>were sort of working class people who'd come to southern

845
00:53:05.360 --> 00:53:09.360
<v Speaker 1>California where you could buy a home for quite cheaply

846
00:53:09.519 --> 00:53:11.719
<v Speaker 1>not far from the beach, in places like Long Beach

847
00:53:11.760 --> 00:53:15.599
<v Speaker 1>and Huntington Beach and Santa Monica, unlike today. And so

848
00:53:15.800 --> 00:53:17.280
<v Speaker 1>that's just a side from the music. There's sort of

849
00:53:17.280 --> 00:53:21.719
<v Speaker 1>a cultural connection there too, and I don't know, you know,

850
00:53:21.760 --> 00:53:24.599
<v Speaker 1>that's sort of one of those totems. By the way,

851
00:53:26.280 --> 00:53:29.760
<v Speaker 1>Paul McCartney once said that God Only Knows was the

852
00:53:29.760 --> 00:53:32.360
<v Speaker 1>greatest rock and roll song ever written, which I thought

853
00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:34.920
<v Speaker 1>was high praise, and I think it was George Martin

854
00:53:34.920 --> 00:53:38.360
<v Speaker 1>who said that it was in fact, pet sounds really

855
00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:40.280
<v Speaker 1>great out the greatest dabble of the Beach Boys that

856
00:53:40.360 --> 00:53:44.480
<v Speaker 1>inspired the Beatles to excel and Sergeant Pepper. Sergeant Pepper

857
00:53:44.519 --> 00:53:46.800
<v Speaker 1>was the Beatles answer to the Beach Boys because they

858
00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:49.079
<v Speaker 1>thought the Beach Boys were their competition.

859
00:53:50.199 --> 00:53:52.880
<v Speaker 2>Well, and they were. I think, really, if you look

860
00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:55.679
<v Speaker 2>back at the sixties and seventies, there are three people

861
00:53:55.679 --> 00:54:00.199
<v Speaker 2>who stand out to me as deserving the label genius.

862
00:54:00.760 --> 00:54:06.639
<v Speaker 2>One is Paul McCartney, another is Paul Simon, and then

863
00:54:06.679 --> 00:54:10.239
<v Speaker 2>you have Brian Wilson. The thing about Brian Wilson that's

864
00:54:10.280 --> 00:54:13.800
<v Speaker 2>so interesting is he was crazy. He was not supposed

865
00:54:13.840 --> 00:54:16.519
<v Speaker 2>to reach eighty two. Now I don't say that disparagingly,

866
00:54:17.079 --> 00:54:21.559
<v Speaker 2>but he was quite genuinely afflicted by mental illness. He

867
00:54:21.719 --> 00:54:26.880
<v Speaker 2>had a form of schizophrenia and he had auditory hallucinations,

868
00:54:27.480 --> 00:54:30.920
<v Speaker 2>and I think the auditory hallucinations helped him. We overplay

869
00:54:30.960 --> 00:54:35.840
<v Speaker 2>in our culture the tortured genius. Being mentally ill is

870
00:54:35.920 --> 00:54:38.519
<v Speaker 2>not fun in movies. They often make it look glamorous

871
00:54:38.920 --> 00:54:46.119
<v Speaker 2>being an alcoholic. But he derived his ability to do

872
00:54:46.159 --> 00:54:50.559
<v Speaker 2>the work that he did from the same source as

873
00:54:50.599 --> 00:54:54.159
<v Speaker 2>tormented him for so much of his life, and it

874
00:54:54.199 --> 00:54:56.199
<v Speaker 2>really did tormenting me. He had to drop out in

875
00:54:56.239 --> 00:54:59.239
<v Speaker 2>the mid sixties from the Beach Boys tours, just as

876
00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:03.880
<v Speaker 2>they hit peak popularity, and that allowed him to produce

877
00:55:03.960 --> 00:55:07.880
<v Speaker 2>Pet Sounds, which was basically a Brian Wilson project, and

878
00:55:07.920 --> 00:55:10.519
<v Speaker 2>then everyone thought, well, here we go. We're going to

879
00:55:10.519 --> 00:55:13.639
<v Speaker 2>see the sort of second half of the Beach Boys

880
00:55:13.760 --> 00:55:16.599
<v Speaker 2>career that you saw in the Beatles, where from nineteen

881
00:55:16.679 --> 00:55:19.920
<v Speaker 2>sixty six on which the Beatles just went super and over,

882
00:55:20.440 --> 00:55:23.280
<v Speaker 2>but Brian Wilson couldn't do it. You get good vibrations

883
00:55:23.440 --> 00:55:26.559
<v Speaker 2>and then he falls apart, and he spent the rest

884
00:55:26.599 --> 00:55:30.119
<v Speaker 2>of his life falling apart. He couldn't work for most

885
00:55:30.159 --> 00:55:33.400
<v Speaker 2>of it. He had rare flashes of genius. He spent

886
00:55:33.519 --> 00:55:36.440
<v Speaker 2>years trying to produce one record. He was setting fire

887
00:55:36.480 --> 00:55:38.960
<v Speaker 2>to things in the recording studio, putting his feet in sand.

888
00:55:39.760 --> 00:55:43.480
<v Speaker 2>But undoubtedly one of the great songwriters of all time.

889
00:55:43.559 --> 00:55:48.000
<v Speaker 2>And if you had told his family in nineteen sixty

890
00:55:48.039 --> 00:55:50.039
<v Speaker 2>six that he would live till eighty two, I think

891
00:55:50.079 --> 00:55:52.360
<v Speaker 2>they would have been shocked, especially given his drug use

892
00:55:52.559 --> 00:55:55.519
<v Speaker 2>and his alcohol use. But he did, which is a

893
00:55:55.519 --> 00:55:57.000
<v Speaker 2>happy ending of sorts.

894
00:55:57.639 --> 00:56:01.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so you mentioned sort of the mania that goes

895
00:56:01.719 --> 00:56:06.079
<v Speaker 1>along with somebody of various degrees of spectral mental health.

896
00:56:06.840 --> 00:56:11.039
<v Speaker 1>I've always been struck by the astounding fact that maybe

897
00:56:11.039 --> 00:56:13.239
<v Speaker 1>the most famous song, or one of them, Good Vibrations,

898
00:56:13.679 --> 00:56:17.159
<v Speaker 1>it took eighty hours in the studio to record that song.

899
00:56:17.360 --> 00:56:19.119
<v Speaker 1>And I mean, if I've been one of the other musicians,

900
00:56:19.159 --> 00:56:20.639
<v Speaker 1>I'd have been going out of my mind, I think.

901
00:56:20.639 --> 00:56:21.920
<v Speaker 1>But he was such a perfectionist.

902
00:56:22.199 --> 00:56:22.519
<v Speaker 2>You can.

903
00:56:22.599 --> 00:56:25.599
<v Speaker 1>By the way, here's some outtakes of that process in

904
00:56:25.679 --> 00:56:29.079
<v Speaker 1>the collection of records that I think. It was one

905
00:56:29.079 --> 00:56:31.280
<v Speaker 1>of the things that always Wilson wanted to do after

906
00:56:31.320 --> 00:56:34.000
<v Speaker 1>Pet Sounds, but had to abandon. But finally a few

907
00:56:34.079 --> 00:56:35.800
<v Speaker 1>years ago someone came out with what they call the

908
00:56:35.880 --> 00:56:39.199
<v Speaker 1>Smile Sessions. It's big, long collection, and you have in

909
00:56:39.239 --> 00:56:42.119
<v Speaker 1>there some of the outtakes of early cuts of Good

910
00:56:42.199 --> 00:56:45.599
<v Speaker 1>Vibrations and some of the narration, and you get some

911
00:56:45.760 --> 00:56:50.000
<v Speaker 1>appreciation for how painsticking and demanding and Perfectioncy was, but

912
00:56:50.039 --> 00:56:52.559
<v Speaker 1>also wanting to do something new and different that just

913
00:56:52.639 --> 00:56:54.920
<v Speaker 1>had a sound that nobody else could come close to.

914
00:56:55.280 --> 00:56:58.239
<v Speaker 1>I mentioned to somebody recently that you know, the other

915
00:56:58.320 --> 00:57:02.000
<v Speaker 1>imitating imitators the Beach Boys in those years was jan

916
00:57:02.119 --> 00:57:05.800
<v Speaker 1>and Deine. And the only reason I remember Janetine is

917
00:57:05.840 --> 00:57:08.039
<v Speaker 1>their great. One of their great hit was The Little

918
00:57:08.039 --> 00:57:10.480
<v Speaker 1>Old Lady from Pasadena, and since I lived in the

919
00:57:10.519 --> 00:57:13.119
<v Speaker 1>Pasadena area, I sort of remember that. But they weren't

920
00:57:13.119 --> 00:57:14.960
<v Speaker 1>even close, of course. I mean they can kind of

921
00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:17.599
<v Speaker 1>imitate a little bit of the sound. But nobody remembers

922
00:57:17.679 --> 00:57:20.559
<v Speaker 1>Jan and Deine today. But we're gonna remember Brian Wilson

923
00:57:20.679 --> 00:57:22.760
<v Speaker 1>and the Beach Boys for a long time, I think.

924
00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:24.840
<v Speaker 2>I think that's right. And by the way, McCartney was

925
00:57:24.880 --> 00:57:28.119
<v Speaker 2>completely correct when he said that God Only Knows is

926
00:57:28.159 --> 00:57:32.559
<v Speaker 2>the greatest pop song ever written. It's an astonishing work

927
00:57:32.719 --> 00:57:38.079
<v Speaker 2>that really is more classical in its chord structure than

928
00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:42.880
<v Speaker 2>most pop music. You got the explosion in the seventies

929
00:57:42.920 --> 00:57:45.880
<v Speaker 2>of so called baroque en roll, but that was the

930
00:57:45.920 --> 00:57:49.960
<v Speaker 2>first example of it and the best example of it.

931
00:57:50.079 --> 00:57:52.360
<v Speaker 2>I like that song so much, Steve, that I actually

932
00:57:52.400 --> 00:57:55.519
<v Speaker 2>played it at my wedding. It was our first dance song. Well,

933
00:57:55.559 --> 00:57:58.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm a horrible dancer. I'm a very good musician, but

934
00:57:58.039 --> 00:58:00.800
<v Speaker 2>for some reason, my sense of which I do have

935
00:58:00.880 --> 00:58:03.840
<v Speaker 2>in my hands when I play instruments, just doesn't translate

936
00:58:03.880 --> 00:58:05.480
<v Speaker 2>to the rest of my body. So I end up

937
00:58:05.760 --> 00:58:08.199
<v Speaker 2>looking like some sort of stick insect, having a stroke,

938
00:58:08.320 --> 00:58:09.559
<v Speaker 2>but my wife still.

939
00:58:12.320 --> 00:58:14.880
<v Speaker 1>Oh, I want to get some AI generated version of

940
00:58:14.920 --> 00:58:22.000
<v Speaker 1>that to show I'll be deported, got stripped of your citizenship?

941
00:58:22.079 --> 00:58:22.239
<v Speaker 5>Right?

942
00:58:22.320 --> 00:58:24.320
<v Speaker 1>Can a chance to get into all those questions with

943
00:58:24.440 --> 00:58:27.679
<v Speaker 1>ay or anybody else, But I think that'll do it

944
00:58:27.679 --> 00:58:31.159
<v Speaker 1>for us this week, Listeners, This podcast was brought to

945
00:58:31.159 --> 00:58:35.360
<v Speaker 1>you by Quality of Synalytic, Cozy Earth, and Bamboo hr.

946
00:58:36.039 --> 00:58:39.320
<v Speaker 1>Please support them for supporting us, And as James likes

947
00:58:39.360 --> 00:58:42.199
<v Speaker 1>to say, please join ricochet dot com, the best place

948
00:58:42.199 --> 00:58:45.679
<v Speaker 1>for civil center right conversation on the web. And as

949
00:58:45.800 --> 00:58:48.119
<v Speaker 1>James also likes to say, and I will like to

950
00:58:48.159 --> 00:58:50.360
<v Speaker 1>say it too, please take a minute to leave a

951
00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:54.480
<v Speaker 1>five star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever

952
00:58:54.559 --> 00:58:58.320
<v Speaker 1>you source your favorite podcast material. Your reviews help us

953
00:58:58.360 --> 00:59:01.480
<v Speaker 1>get more listeners, and that keeps the show going. And

954
00:59:01.519 --> 00:59:04.760
<v Speaker 1>so we will see you in the comments. Everybody on Ricochet,

955
00:59:04.840 --> 00:59:05.960
<v Speaker 1>what are we up to? Four point oh?

956
00:59:06.079 --> 00:59:09.039
<v Speaker 2>I've losed a town of things. Four point oh?

957
00:59:09.079 --> 00:59:10.960
<v Speaker 1>All right, bye bye everybody, See you next week.