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Speaker 1: Ask not what your country can do for you, ask

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what you can do for your country.

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Speaker 2: Mister gorbachaw tear down this wall.

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Speaker 1: It's the Ricochet Podcast. Well Steve Hayward hosting this week

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along with Charles C. W. Cook and special guest Anny McCarthy,

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breaking down all the unrest on the streets and in

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the court room. Let's have ourselves a podcast.

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Speaker 2: Look, it's very simple, not complicated.

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Speaker 1: Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon.

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Speaker 3: The increasing range of Iran's ballistic business would bring that

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nuclear likement to the cities of Europe and eventually to America. Remember,

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Iran calls Israel the small saple. It calls America the

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great sagem. Long live Israel and long live America.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Ricochet Podcast number seven hundred and forty five.

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It's Steve Hayward sitting in the host chair today while

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James is still away. Joined by and now one hundred

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percent recovered Charles C. W. Cook at his outpost in Florida.

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How are you today, Charles?

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Speaker 4: I am.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing well. Thankfully, There's nothing going on in the news,

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so I've been able to ease back into it.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, I keep saying I've been saying for

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a while now that things happen so fast in Trump

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two that we're gonna need to measure in dog years.

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And doesn't the Trump Musk divorce feel like two years

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ago already?

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Speaker 2: You know, I think to some extent reconcile. So we've

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been through a divorce and maybe a remarriage. It's like

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Richard Burton and Liz Taylor. I wonder how many times

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it will happen.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think it may follow that same epicycle. Yeah,

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I'm actually still on holiday over in Europe, but so

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not keeping up moment by moment by the news. But

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like everyone else, I woke up early this morning here

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i head of most of you in America, of course,

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to see the news that Israel has, you know, dropped

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the dime, so to speak, on Iran in a big way.

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And I guess my first thought, Charles is you know,

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the left was starting to taunt Trump here a few

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weeks ago, saying he was what was the euphemism or

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the acronym, he was a taco person attack Taco. I'm

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guessing right now that Iran may have taken a Trump's

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war aversion too seriously, but they won't be celebrating Taco

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Tuesday this next week. Put it that way, right, Maybe

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that's too glib, but the point is, I did wonder.

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You know, there's ways of thinking that Trump didn't want

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them to do this, and did they do it without

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telling us? And you know these things have gone on.

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But then he released that very strong statement on truth

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social saying, look, I told him Ron that they had

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sixty days and today would be six day sixty one.

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That I meant it. And it looks to me like

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Trump didn't chicken out this time. Of course, they're not

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American forces committed to this, at least not yet.

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Speaker 5: No.

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Speaker 2: A few thoughts. The first is it was very odd

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that the Democrats picked up on that line of argument,

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given that they didn't want Trump to do the things

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he was doing, so they were taunting him for taking

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their position. Yeah, not a smart move in politics, especially

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with Trump on this in particular, though, Trump is an

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interesting figure in that there is a movement that has

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been built up around Trump that often projects onto Trump

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views that he doesn't actually hold and uses him to

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claim changes on the right that have not happened.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: There is a lot clearly that has changed with the

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arrival of Trump into the Republican Party, which is now

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a ten year phenomenon. But some of the time, for example,

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on economics, the claims that are made just aren't true.

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This idea that, wow, the Republican are no longer interested in,

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say tax cuts, Trump's here, Well they are, and it

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is never more pronounced than in the realm of foreign policy.

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It is true that Trump criticized the Iraq War, but

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there is a huge gap between the Iraq War and

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the vast majority of things that American presidents have done

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in the last thirty years. Iraq, in fact, is only

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notable because it was an aberration from the foreign policy

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that had surrounded it. And for some reason, some within

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the so called or supposed Trump faction have decided that

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he is an isolationist who would be opposed to ever

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deploying American troops, ever exerting American force. Well, he hasn't actually,

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in this case, had to do either of even those things.

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He's just had to say, yeah, Israel, go deal with Iran.

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Quite why there was this vehemence and assumption that he

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would be opposed to this, It was never quite clear

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to me. Clearly he is not. He has left some

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wiggle room in his rhetoric. Marco Ruby was clear to

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note that the Americans weren't involved. But this isn't out

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of character for Trump if you look at his first term,

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or if you look at the way that he sees

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the world, supporting Israel, doing America a favor, and of

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course doing Israel a great favor too. In taking out

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some of Iran's nuclear capabilities is classic Trump, surely.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, right, there was. I'm no expert on military capabilities,

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but I always thought that there was some doubt as

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to whether Israel could successfully attack Iran alone. I mean,

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people kept saying they need American help, they need least

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American intelligence and maybe a wax plans and I don't

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know what other, you know, practical logistical support along the way.

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Speaker 5: Uh.

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Speaker 1: And it appears that they did not eat any need

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any of that. They only needed our blessing. Uh. And

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now we'll see weapons and weapons, right, and That'sump said that, right,

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Look that we've got the best weapons, and we've given

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them a lot of them to Israel, and we're going

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to give them more. I mean, Trump sounds like he's

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all in on backing Israel on this.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's in our interests for Iran not to have

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a nuke, and I think we can. I shouldn't assume

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we've become so deranged by Iraq that now even indirect

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help is cast us being a forever war. But surely

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we can acknowledge that Iran not having a nuclear weapon

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is good for America. Right, yeah, Well, we can debate

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how we do that, whether we should do it ourselves,

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whether we should support is, how much we should spend,

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whether there are risks, those are totally reasonable questions, But

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the goal, the end, the aim here of Iran not

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having a nuclear weapon surely is presumptively good.

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Speaker 1: Right, yes, I think so, I will say, I do know, well,

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actually you know what, I will name names. You know,

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we had Dan McCarthy on the show here several weeks ago,

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and he was very stubborn. I mean, he did say,

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Israel can do it themselves, they don't need any help

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from us, and I thought, well, maybe that's true, but

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I'm not sure how. I don't know that. I don't

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know how you would know that. I like Dan, he's

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a pal, but he and there are other people like him,

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were very dug in that. Really it's none of our business.

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If it Ron has a bomb, it's not really a

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threat to us. And I think that there has been

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this effort by people like Dan, who I repeat I

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like very much, but I think is greatly mistaken here,

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along with others who are saying the same thing. And

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that's not even before you get into Tucker Carlson territory,

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which I don't want to get into.

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Speaker 2: You mean you don't want to get into the topic,

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or you don't want to get into the territory he's occupied.

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Speaker 1: Either one quarantine the non aggressor.

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Speaker 4: Well.

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Speaker 2: I think Dan is wrong. I like him too. I

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do think it's important to us. I think as a

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threshold question, it is important to the United States who

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has nuclear weapons, and I don't think it matters where

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they are in the world. You cannot get far enough

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away and stay on Earth from nuclear weapons like it

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obviously affects US Iran. It's not even where Australia is

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in the world. You know, it's right next to a

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whole bunch of countries that affect us, whether they're allies

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or enemies, or we're just neutral towards them. We take

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that perfect theoretical Washingtonian stance. It matters, So I just

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I can't. I don't know if that is being used

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as a proxy for it is better on balance for

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us not to get involved, or it's better for them

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to get a nuclear bomb than it is for us

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to art or support a war. Sure, I can buy

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the argument, although I don't agree with it, but not

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to care. Come on, not to say it's not in

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our interest that that ship has sailed. That is just

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not There was a certain point in American history, I

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think where this sort of view made perfect sense. I mean,

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for example, although we weren't wholly unaffected by it, if

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you were an American president in eighteen twenty, the movement

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within the Habsburg Empire, they didn't actually matter that much, right,

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I mean, you could say plausibly, we don't care, but

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Iran nuclear weapons.

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Speaker 1: Come on, yeah, yeah, that's right. Yes, And they showing

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their question is well, let's switch gears here, back to

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the scene at home, and okay, so what we've got

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the resistance, the riots going on in Los Angeles and elsewhere,

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sounds like they might spread. It sounds like maybe some

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governors like Abbott will get out in front of it

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and stop it from starting. And then we have this

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crazy stunt with Senator Padilla in California. By the way,

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my theory as a native Californian who's watched the state

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slide into a one party socialist republic here in the

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last twenty twenty five years. The problem with Padilla and

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Kamala Harris and Newsom to some extent is they don't

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affect They don't face much effective Republican opposition, they don't

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face much serious media scrutiny, and so suddenly when things

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are running against them, they behave in these ridiculous ways

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like Senator Padia. Now we'll talk with Andy McCarthy in

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a few minutes about some of the legal aspects of this,

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But you and I are better at the politics of it.

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And it seems to me this disastrous politics for the Democrats,

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and I think some of their own polls are even

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perhaps showing this. What Mayor Bass said, this is all terrible.

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And then she declares a curfew. I think, you know,

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faster you can say bad opinion poll, she put in

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a curfew. So what's your sense of it from over

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the other side of the country.

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Speaker 2: Wowuck, It pains me to say this, because, as you know,

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I'm a big lover of California. But your state's crazy. Yeah,

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it's the most beautiful place in the world, run by

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terrible people who seem to think that they have a

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veto on federal law. And in any other context, Steve,

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this would be compared to the nullifiers of the past.

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They wouldn't be the heroes, they'd be the presumptive villains.

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You just don't get to stand in the way of

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legitimate federal functions because you don't like them any more

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than Florida would. I think that it has become clear

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within California that the view that I just outlined is

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the majority in the country, and that there is a

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great deal of downside to taking the stance that California has.

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It is not the case that Donald Trump is wildly popular.

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He's more popular than I thought he would be in

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his second term, but he's not wildly popular. But he

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is about twenty or thirty probably more popular than the Democrats,

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and especially on the question of immigration. The party looks

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absolutely crazy compared to Trump, and I think that some

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of the rhetorical backtracking that we've seen we can get

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to Perdilla separately, because he escalated, but from Mayor Bass

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from Gavin Newsom is the product of that they've recognized,

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and I've noticed a shift prior to that backtracking. Joe

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Biden was disgraceful in his refusal to enforce federal immigration law,

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an absolute historic disgrace, and he cost his party dearly.

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But he always pretended he was doing it. He always said, no, no,

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we are enforcing the border. And then later on he said,

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you know whose fault it is that the border is open.

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Republicans remember that stunt where they said that they needed

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more power from Congress, and of course that was nonsense,

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but Biden understood at least that he had to lie

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about it, and for a while Bass and Knewsome and

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Shift they didn't. They just came out openly said, look,

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we just don't believe that we should be enforcing this. Lord,

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it's terrible, we'll stop you. Paddia is still doing that,

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those guys are, which is probably the product of a

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shift in opinion. Pauling that United.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, my mind runs back now to

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Biden's Secretary of Homeland Security, that despicable Mayorcus kept saying

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over and over again in congressional hearings the border is secure.

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I could not believe they thought they could say that

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with a straight face, right right, and yet they did.

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I say the other thing, that's funny you mentioned Mayor

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Basta claric curfew. If Gavin knew some filing legal pleadings

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about states rights and the Tenth Amendment. Trump has this

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way of turning everybody on their heads.

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Speaker 5: Annoying.

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Speaker 2: It's so annoying because in every circumstance where the authority

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of the states actually applies and the federal government is

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overreaching in a way that would have been totally alien

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to the founders and ready to everyone prior to the

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New Deal, California is wrong, California. But the second that

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it's something that is undisputably a federal function, there's suddenly

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all about the Tenth Amendment. It's like they can't be

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right even when they're trying right right.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think the problem is that we're seeing in

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California and other Blue states what I call the senescence

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we thank Qualitia for sponsoring this the Ricochet Podcast. And

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now we welcome back to the podcast our great friend

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Any McCarthy, Senior Fellow at National Review Institute, a National

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Review contributing editor and author of Ball of Confusion, The

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Plot to Reagan Election and Destroy Presidency. Welcome Andy. Gosh.

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You know, as a lawyer, the Trump administration is keeping

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you busy trying to keep up with things.

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Speaker 4: Boy, it's all overwhelming.

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Speaker 5: I wrote something like I want to say three four

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days ago about the Khalil immigration case. I have a

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three quarters finished, and I can't get to it because

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it feels like every ten minutes something else happens and

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just overwhelms the news cycle.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, now we want to ask you first about

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the legal aspects of Trump calling up the California National Guard.

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And I'm overseas actually, and I haven't kept up with

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all the details, but I gather he's not yet invoked

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the Insurrection Act, which I guess is maybe the most

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clear statue to authorize that. But I think there are

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other means of doing it. What do you make of

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the scene so far of as Is there any problems

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with it? Are the criticisms from people like Governor Newsom

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have any validity? Or what's Anny McCarthy's always candid take

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on what Trump does here?

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Speaker 5: Well, it's hard from you know, I'm on the East Coast.

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I'm watching the news just like everyone else's. I think

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it's hard when you read the conflicting reports, and particularly

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when you read Judge Briar's opinion in the California District Court,

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which made a ruling yesterday that the Ninth Circuit has

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suspended that Trump's invocation of the statute that he didn't folk,

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which is twelve four h six, that that was unlawful.

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We can get into why he said that, but one

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of the what he basically argues is that there is

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no rebellion and that there are you know, there's sporadic violence,

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but that there isn't as much violence as the administration suggests.

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And then, you know, you get a lot of pushback

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from the other side that at least in the places

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where the violence is happening, federal functions are not able

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to go forward.

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Speaker 4: And even though the.

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Speaker 5: People who are resisting the Trump administration and the immigration authorities.

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Even though they're not armed with firearms, there've been molotov cocktails,

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they've thrown objects that could be lethally dangerous at the police,

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they've boxed them in, they've made it impossible for them

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to inform or some laws. So it's difficult to get

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a read in part, I think, Steve, because Los Angeles

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is also huge. We're talking about not just Los Angeles

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the city, but Los Angeles County, which is just it's massive.

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So you know, there are many people in Los Angeles,

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I guess who can look out their windows and see

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that everything's fine and there is no violence, and there

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is no seemingly there's not a problem. But in the

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places where there has been there have been uprisings, they've

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been pretty intense. So there's that difficulty of getting a level,

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you know, getting a read on how violent things are,

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which I think is important because he's invoking rebellion and

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I think, you know, it used to be prior to

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January sixth if you threw around words like you know, sedition,

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insurrection and rebellion, those words had and we actually thought that,

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you know, you had to get to a certain level

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of uprising before invoking those sorts of things. I think,

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you know, the fact that they tagged a three and

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a half hour riot where none of the security forces

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were killed. There were a lot of injuries, but the

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damage to the facility was so minimal that Congress was

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able to reconvene that evening that nevertheless had to be

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because of political reasons and insurrection, and I think it

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kind of trivialized the concept, and now they want to

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have an exacting definition of rebellion after, you know, after

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we basically, you know, got rid of insurrections as something meaningful.

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So that's a big part of Judge Brier's opinion as well.

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But you do have to make a judgment about how

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serious the violence is if you're going to throw words

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like rebellion around, I still think that's true.

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Speaker 1: Right, Well, one more quick question or point andy, before

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I turn you over to the tender mercies of Charlie. Look,

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I remember the Rodney King riots of nineteen ninety two,

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which people like Maxine Waters still very much with us,

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called a rebellion. I think she might even used the

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term insurrection by the way she was for it, right,

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I mean, at least the people who said January sixth

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was an insurrection for people who didn't like it. Okay,

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but it seems to me that again I've come up

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this from a political point of view more than a

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legal one. And one thing is is that, of course,

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the Rodney King riots and actually one of my earliest

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childhood memories growing up in Pasadena was seeing the distance

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smoke from the Watts riots in nineteen sixty five. I

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could go out in my front yard and see the

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smoke from a long way away and what was I

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nine years old or something, and thought, wow, this is

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really kind of scary. The point is that it seems

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to me there's an argument for saying, don't wait for

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it to spread all over to the city or to

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spread to five more places. You want to nip it

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in the bud. And and I mean, that's why it

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seems to me that at least the political logic and

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the moral logic is entirely on Trump's side.

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Speaker 5: You know, it's interesting that you mentioned that because I've

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had occasion in the last couple of days Steve to

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talk about when I was I think eleven or twelve,

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Kent State happened and that's my powerful memory and it's

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every time we have a situation like this where we

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think about putting federal troops into a domestic situation, I

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can't help but go back to that, because to me,

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more than more than tet more than Tonkin Gulf, more

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than almost anything that happened in those years. I think

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the Kent State debacle in which four students were killed

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created the mythos about the Vietnam War as we remember

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it now. To me, because I was so young and impressionable,

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that's like the most powerful memory of that incident. And

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every time we have something like this happen, that's what

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I find myself.

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Speaker 2: Going back to Andy, I have two related questions for you,

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and I hope you're sitting down because a very off

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brand for me. Number One, does Trump need a law here?

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Is there any inherent authority within the presidency to execute

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federal law and to defend those who are executing federal

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law from those who would resist? Two? Is this just disiible?

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I mean, I am the everything's just dieable guy. I

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tend to like courts. I tend to think in so

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many cases where people say that's non just dieuble, there's

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no real way of arbitrating unless you use the courts

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even in core constitutional questions involving the political branches. But

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this level of micromanagement surely at some point must become unsustainable.

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Speaker 5: Both are great questions, and Judge Bryer wrestles with the

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justice ability, I don't think very convincingly, but he wrestles

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with it in his opinion. I think it's a useful

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example for this, Charlie is the Alien Enemies Act invocation,

402
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because a lot of that litigation has gone back to

403
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an opinion that Justice Frankfurter wrote in about a year

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after the actual shooting in the Second World War ended,

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where the president had invoked President Truman had invoked the

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Alien Enemies Act.

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Speaker 4: It had been.

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Speaker 5: Invoked throughout the war, but the people who brought the

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lawsuit wanted to claim that there was no longer a

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declared war, that the state of war no longer obtained.

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And what frankfort basically said, and this gets the lines

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very blurry, I think, is that the court owes a

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lot of deference to presidential judgment because of the nature

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of what was being litigated there, but that courts are

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capable of interpreting statutory terms, and what the court there

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decided was that because Congress and the political branches together,

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Congress and the President had not acted in any way

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to end the declaration of war, and we're taking the

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position that the war was still ongoing even though it.

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Speaker 4: Was nineteen forty six.

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Speaker 5: The court was not going to.

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Speaker 4: The second guess that.

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Speaker 5: So they said that basically, they said, we have this

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statutory term, you have to be able to show that

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there is a declared war, but we're going to defer

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a great deal to the political branches about whether the

427
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declared war is still ongoing because they haven't attracted it.

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And then they said there are other things like that

429
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statue talks about aliens of the enemy force who are

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below the age of eight of fourteen. So they said

431
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that was something that a court can wrestle with because

432
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it's a bright.

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Speaker 4: Line, easy yeah.

434
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Speaker 5: And the other things that weren't in the statue or

435
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,880
were not up for debate in that case was was

436
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there an invasion or a predatory incursion? And it does

437
00:26:38,039 --> 00:26:44,640
seem like in all of these cases and this controversy

438
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:49,079
raises the same issues. There are always two questions. One

439
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,559
is what's the objective test? That is, what is the

440
00:26:51,599 --> 00:26:54,079
thing that's in the statute that has to be established.

441
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And then secondly, who gets to decide? And I don't

442
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think the courts have been consistent on that. I think

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what they basically say is, since the statute is written

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in an objective way, in the sense that it doesn't

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say in the President's judgment, it just says, you know,

446
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insurrection or rebellion, the first thing is, you know, objectively speaking,

447
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is there reason to believe that that condition obtains? And

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that I think is one threshold. And then the second

449
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question becomes, if the president decides it obtains, then how

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much are we going to subject that to scrutiny? And

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one of interestingly, in the oral argument in California, one

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of the questions that Judge Briar pressed the Trump Justice

453
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Department on was what if President Trump, in order to

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invoke twelve four h six, had decided there was a rebellion.

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He had absolutely no evidence that there was a rebellion.

456
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He just on his own, ifsay Dixon, it's a rebellion,

457
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does a court have to accept that? The administration's position

458
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is that the court has to accept it. Briar's position

459
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is that the court doesn't have to accept it, so

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it seems to me there's not a.

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Speaker 4: Good answer to your question.

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Speaker 5: There's a lot of blurriness here, and it seems to

463
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me that there's there's again there's an initial threshold of

464
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can we agree that there are enough facts that it's

465
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at least plausible that the statutory term has been met,

466
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and then if it has how much difference do we

467
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of to the to the president to in terms of

468
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invoking it. So that's not a very satisfying answer, but

469
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I think that's where we're at in terms of whether

470
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the president needs the law at all. I think it

471
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depends on what it is the president wants to accomplish,

472
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because you have this crash, which I think also leads

473
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to some blurriness between the position that the Justice Department

474
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and the Office of Legal Counsel have taken historically, which

475
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I think is best articulated in this nineteen seventy one

476
00:29:19,319 --> 00:29:22,599
memo which was written by William Rehnquist when he was

477
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,359
running OLC at the Justice Department, which talks about the

478
00:29:28,319 --> 00:29:36,440
protective function of the meaning the president's authority to use

479
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:41,680
the military in order to carry out executive functions that

480
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:47,160
are his lawful, legitimate functions. In the executive branch, and

481
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:51,759
that crashes into POSI Coomatadis, which is enacted at the

482
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,640
end of the toward the end of the nineteenth century

483
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,319
and basically says that in the absence of a congressional

484
00:29:58,359 --> 00:30:03,599
authorization or something clear in the constitution, the president cannot

485
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:10,000
use the military for domestic law enforcement functions. So it

486
00:30:10,119 --> 00:30:14,119
seems clear that if what the president is calling the

487
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:19,079
military and to do is protect federal facilities like courthouses

488
00:30:19,519 --> 00:30:23,240
or federal buildings, the military can do that because that's

489
00:30:23,319 --> 00:30:29,079
not a law enforcement function. There's also authority for the

490
00:30:29,119 --> 00:30:33,000
proposition that if people are blocking, say.

491
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,319
Speaker 4: Facilities and interstate.

492
00:30:35,839 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 5: Commerce like railroads or highways, and that were to prevent

493
00:30:42,839 --> 00:30:46,400
something like the mails from being delivered, the president could

494
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,680
dispatch the military to open up those facilities to make

495
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,400
sure that the mail could be delivered, and might in

496
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:58,359
fact even be able to use the military forces to

497
00:30:58,359 --> 00:31:01,319
deliver the mail, because that's not a law enforcement function.

498
00:31:02,079 --> 00:31:04,559
I think where it gets tricky, and Rich asked me

499
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:08,880
this yesterday about in the podcast. I'm less confident now

500
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,519
than I was when I gave that answer, because I've

501
00:31:11,559 --> 00:31:15,319
looked a lot more into this since then. The question

502
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,640
is what if the president you have these disruptions of

503
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,880
the ability of the agents to enforce the immigration law,

504
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,119
people blocking the places where they want to go in

505
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,519
and do the raids, people trying to prevent the agents

506
00:31:30,519 --> 00:31:32,680
from getting it, people they want to place under.

507
00:31:32,519 --> 00:31:33,559
Speaker 4: Arrest, that sort of thing.

508
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:39,839
Speaker 5: Can the president dispatch the military to protect the federal

509
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:45,799
function of enforcing the immigration laws in a sanctuary city

510
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:51,039
where the local law enforcement they're not allowed to obstruct,

511
00:31:51,039 --> 00:31:56,240
but they're not required to help the federal authorities, and

512
00:31:56,279 --> 00:32:01,960
where people are clearly obstructing that function. If it gets

513
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,160
serious enough that the federal law enforcement people cannot carry

514
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,160
out their duties, can you send the military along to

515
00:32:10,319 --> 00:32:15,400
protect them? And when does that evolve from a protective

516
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,480
mission where you're basically making sure the agents are safe

517
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,000
when they go about the duty of, say, arresting someone

518
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,759
or carrying out a raid, or are the military guys

519
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,480
actually doing law enforcement? Is that so close to the

520
00:32:32,519 --> 00:32:36,119
actual execution of the law that in the absence of

521
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:40,279
congressional authorization, it's something that should be illegal. And I

522
00:32:40,319 --> 00:32:43,720
don't think that's been resolved. The more I look into it,

523
00:32:43,759 --> 00:32:45,839
the more I think it's a blurry line.

524
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 1: Hey, I've got to interrupt here. Maybe you started your

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547
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sponsoring this the Recochet podcast. Well, this seems to me

548
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,280
a blurry line that a lot of modern trends have

549
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,679
brought us to. I mean, I repair to a few

550
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:38,239
simple things. First of all, curtis right case the president

551
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,719
is the sole organ of foreign policy. Now you say

552
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,679
this isn't a foreign policy question, except maybe it is

553
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,840
in a certain way that I mean, the left says

554
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,119
we should live in a world without borders. Well, guess

555
00:34:48,159 --> 00:34:50,960
what that means foreign policy is different. I'm sure I'm

556
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,440
just using their argument against them for a moment. The

557
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,960
other one is you mentioned Frankfurter. Was he the one

558
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,400
who said the Constitution is not a suicide pact? Or

559
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,480
was that Jackson? I don't remember Jackson, Robert jack Jackson, Right, okay,

560
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,320
but that you know famous line of that same era

561
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:06,880
of cases that you were invoking, And I don't know, Andy,

562
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,920
I just get frustrated with trying to parse this out

563
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,400
in legal terms. I guess here I'm a strong executive

564
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,519
power man, and that the checks on him ultimately should

565
00:35:16,559 --> 00:35:19,960
be political and popular. But popular, I mean a sentiment

566
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,239
of the American people and Congress is not without remedies

567
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,599
available to it. I mean they're difficult. Impeachment takes time

568
00:35:27,639 --> 00:35:29,840
if you want to go to the most extreme one.

569
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,760
But I don't know, this seems like I see, I'm

570
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,840
I'm attacking your profession. I'm sorry, Andy, I can't help it.

571
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,159
But as a constitutionalist rather than as a lawyer, and

572
00:35:39,159 --> 00:35:42,239
I know there's a blurred line there. I just get

573
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,760
very frustrated with the way this always ends up in court,

574
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,599
the way Topeville said all of our disputes we're gonna go.

575
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,639
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a lot to that, you know. I always

576
00:35:52,039 --> 00:35:56,320
what I've found over the years, especially after working on

577
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,719
national security cases instead of you know, my last ten

578
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,239
years as a prosecutor, I did much more national security

579
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:07,480
stuff than cops and robbers stuff. And what you really,

580
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,079
I think, what the impression you come away with in

581
00:36:12,119 --> 00:36:14,760
a much more powerful way, is that we like to

582
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,760
think of ourselves as a rule of law society, but

583
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,280
we're a political society. The most important decisions that get

584
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,119
made are political ones, and I think we delude ourselves

585
00:36:25,119 --> 00:36:29,599
sometimes into the actually they can't even with respect to

586
00:36:29,639 --> 00:36:32,679
the most important decisions that we might have to make

587
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,559
for the protection of the country. You can't make antecedent

588
00:36:36,639 --> 00:36:40,599
and Hamilton recognized us right, because the threats to a

589
00:36:40,639 --> 00:36:46,039
country could be infinite. You can't make antecedent laws that

590
00:36:46,199 --> 00:36:49,440
bind the government in a way that they might not be,

591
00:36:49,639 --> 00:36:53,639
that the government might not be able to respond in

592
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:59,599
a meaningful way to kinds of threats that you haven't anticipated.

593
00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:06,840
So I think the thing that's challenging about Trump's presidency,

594
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:09,719
and I think this might be best seen in the

595
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:18,039
in the immunity the argument, which you know, as time

596
00:37:18,079 --> 00:37:21,639
goes by, I actually think Charlie you noted, I think

597
00:37:21,679 --> 00:37:25,079
at the time when the when the Supreme Court made

598
00:37:25,079 --> 00:37:30,119
their decision about whether the president had immunity from criminal

599
00:37:30,159 --> 00:37:33,920
prosecution or not, which of course is not in the Constitution.

600
00:37:35,039 --> 00:37:37,480
But at the same time, I think everybody common sense

601
00:37:37,519 --> 00:37:40,920
wise knows that the president has to carry out certain

602
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:49,199
particular executive functions and he can't be stopped from carrying

603
00:37:49,199 --> 00:37:54,000
them out by criminal statutes. So that's the that's the tension,

604
00:37:55,159 --> 00:37:58,119
and I think looking back on it, Justice Barrett has

605
00:37:58,119 --> 00:38:01,159
a much more modest take on that than the rest

606
00:38:01,199 --> 00:38:04,960
of the majority did. But the broader point I wanted

607
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,000
to make about Trump is that we went two hundred

608
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,199
and thirty years without having to have that sketched out

609
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:18,800
in an apidictic way, because everybody kind of knew that

610
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,000
there were these norms. You know that the president has

611
00:38:22,039 --> 00:38:26,119
to make very hard decisions and some of them are

612
00:38:26,199 --> 00:38:30,199
going to be legally dubious, and we can't have a

613
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,800
situation where the next administration is going to come in

614
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,519
and prosecute the president or what he did in the

615
00:38:36,599 --> 00:38:40,679
last administration unless it's so blatantly criminal that it can't

616
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,880
be that its criminality can't be ignored, because you can't

617
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,440
have a function in government that way. Right If the

618
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,440
president has to worry about being prosecuted or civilly sued

619
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,000
while he's making these decisions that are of great consequence

620
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,719
of the country, the government can't function. We went two

621
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,519
hundred and thirty years without a court having to to

622
00:39:00,559 --> 00:39:04,719
describe what the parameters are or at least grapple with them,

623
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,119
because you know, we still don't really know exactly what

624
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,400
the lines are even after that decision. But the thing

625
00:39:11,519 --> 00:39:14,679
is everything, there's a number of things Steve you talked about,

626
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,039
you know, politics rather than law, and a lot of

627
00:39:18,039 --> 00:39:20,719
the important stuff that goes on and government is covered

628
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:25,519
by norms more than laws because once people get into

629
00:39:25,559 --> 00:39:32,519
these once you get into an important government position, your

630
00:39:32,639 --> 00:39:36,760
bad calls are not going to be subject to criminal

631
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:41,599
prosecution or civil suit. So what controls you to stay

632
00:39:41,639 --> 00:39:46,440
within the four corners of your authority is more norms

633
00:39:46,519 --> 00:39:52,400
than law. And I think we function that way fine

634
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,679
for a very long time. But Trump, I think more

635
00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:00,800
than any of his predecessors. And this isn't to say

636
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,679
he invented this. I just think he pushes it harder

637
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,880
than the rest. But he finds the loose joints in

638
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,840
the system and he pushes them. And I think, you know,

639
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,920
I've had this argument with people who say he wants

640
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,519
to be a dictator. You know, he's accumulating power to himself.

641
00:40:19,159 --> 00:40:22,320
I don't think he's got I don't think he's got

642
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,519
a realistic idea that he's going to be president forever.

643
00:40:25,599 --> 00:40:27,239
I think he knows he's going to be president for

644
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:32,079
four years. And I think in the current very paralyzed system,

645
00:40:32,159 --> 00:40:35,760
that we're in, he's basically got two years to get

646
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:41,320
stuff done. He has no prayer of getting much statutory

647
00:40:42,159 --> 00:40:49,079
stuff done. And what he's trying to do is identify

648
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:53,239
all the things that he can do unilaterally and push

649
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,800
as hard as he can in the directions that he

650
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:01,079
wants to take the country. And a lot of it

651
00:41:01,119 --> 00:41:04,239
looks like, you know, Charlie and I both talked about,

652
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,920
you know, the pretextual use of emergencies in order to

653
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,199
you know, to do things that a president shouldn't be

654
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:16,400
able to do, essentially legislate. He's looking for all the

655
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,280
things that he can do unilaterally, even if he needs

656
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:23,199
a pretext to do it. And I don't know that

657
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,320
we've ever had a president. I mean, we're only six

658
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:30,079
months in and I feel exhausted trying to, you know,

659
00:41:30,119 --> 00:41:31,599
to watch him every day. But I don't know that

660
00:41:31,639 --> 00:41:35,719
we've ever had a president who tries to to push

661
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:41,960
the outer limits of his authority so hard, so fast,

662
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,199
to the point where now courts are being called in

663
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,039
to try to draw lines, just like they did with

664
00:41:48,079 --> 00:41:52,400
the with the immunity. I think that's the stress on

665
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:52,960
the system.

666
00:41:53,559 --> 00:41:58,760
Speaker 2: Well, yes, but to what extent, andy is that stress

667
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:05,360
also being created by the left, and I'm thinking the

668
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:12,320
immunity case, the immunity case was created by law fair right.

669
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,559
And then in this case. One of the problems here

670
00:42:17,639 --> 00:42:22,159
is that you have the governor of California is trying

671
00:42:22,519 --> 00:42:25,800
to subvert immigration law, or at least is on the

672
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:33,320
side of those who are and maybe then Trump pushes

673
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,159
it too far. But it seems that we have a

674
00:42:36,159 --> 00:42:41,239
perfect storm where you have one side pushes everything over

675
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:43,159
and then Trump says, oh, well, I'm going to push

676
00:42:43,199 --> 00:42:45,079
it over in the other direction, and then we expect

677
00:42:45,119 --> 00:42:48,000
the courts to fix this Or Am I just being

678
00:42:48,039 --> 00:42:48,760
two partisan?

679
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 5: No?

680
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:51,519
Speaker 4: I don't think so.

681
00:42:51,599 --> 00:42:56,559
Speaker 5: I think, you know, law fair is complicated because the

682
00:42:56,599 --> 00:43:02,599
most preposterous case or cases are like the New York cases,

683
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:07,559
you know, Bragg's case. I don't think, you know, I

684
00:43:07,559 --> 00:43:09,599
looked at this very closely for a long time. I

685
00:43:09,639 --> 00:43:13,920
didn't agree with Jack Smith's, especially the J six case,

686
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,960
because I think he was stretching statutes to the limit

687
00:43:17,039 --> 00:43:20,400
to try to criminalize what Trump did. But you know,

688
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:22,400
I was in the Justice Department for a long time.

689
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,559
There's no way that an attack on the capital of

690
00:43:25,599 --> 00:43:27,960
the kind that happened on January sixth would not have

691
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,559
been investigated as a as a criminal event. And even

692
00:43:32,599 --> 00:43:37,159
if we quibble of whether the statutes that were stretched

693
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,239
the way they were applied to what Trump did, there's

694
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:44,360
no question that Trump did appalling things on January sixth

695
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,760
and the run up to it, which would have justified

696
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,840
at least investigating him, right. And then the Florida thing,

697
00:43:52,159 --> 00:43:55,280
I think that was you know, you can argue about

698
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,519
whether they should have brought it criminally or not, but

699
00:43:57,559 --> 00:44:04,199
that's there was definitely conduct that was involved there. You know,

700
00:44:04,519 --> 00:44:07,199
did they overdo it, Yes, they overdid it. And was

701
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:11,000
there a coordinated strategy in order to bring cases at

702
00:44:11,039 --> 00:44:13,760
a particular time that would hit in the run up

703
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,840
to the election. There absolutely was, But it's just it's complicated.

704
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:23,239
I think the sanctuary city stuff is much more on

705
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,440
point for what we're talking about, because, you know, if

706
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,760
you look at what Judge Bryer wrote, he wrote a

707
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,840
thirty six page opinion, which means he must have he

708
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,119
had to start writing at the minute he got the case.

709
00:44:38,639 --> 00:44:44,119
But you know, there's nothing in that opinion about sanctuary

710
00:44:44,119 --> 00:44:47,119
cities or sanctuary policies or the fact that the federal

711
00:44:47,159 --> 00:44:50,480
government has the right and the power and the authority to,

712
00:44:51,559 --> 00:44:54,199
you know, to enforce the immigration laws, and that the

713
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:59,599
states are effectively obstructing the enforcement of the immigration laws.

714
00:45:00,079 --> 00:45:03,360
So the whole opinion is kind of it's artificial in

715
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,039
the sense that what you're talking about is like, there's

716
00:45:06,159 --> 00:45:08,360
violence in the streets and is it enough of an

717
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,280
impediment on the federal agents And we're not really talking

718
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,639
about why there's a problem and that whole.

719
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 2: And I'll finish with this, but that's the part of

720
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,079
this that's making me crazy because I am a very

721
00:45:20,159 --> 00:45:23,480
big fan of the decision of the Supreme Court in Princeville,

722
00:45:23,599 --> 00:45:26,400
United States, which was from nineteen ninety seven, which is

723
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:31,360
the justification for sanctuary cities insofar as jurisdictions in America

724
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,239
are not obliged to help the federal government. That case

725
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:38,639
was a gun case. It was a case that came

726
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:42,840
about after the Brady Act because the Brady Act initially

727
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,800
required the states to enforce certain portions of federal law.

728
00:45:47,039 --> 00:45:49,440
And Scalia writes this opinion and he says, no, you're

729
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:53,039
not allowed to do that. That's commandeering. So whenever people

730
00:45:53,079 --> 00:45:56,559
complain about sanctuary cities, I always jump in and say, hey,

731
00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:00,840
oh yeah, terrible politically, but legally, we actually like some

732
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,960
of the principles that are in play here. But California,

733
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,880
in its rhetoric and in its actions, has gone so

734
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,760
much further than Prince and it really annoys me because

735
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,199
in any other circumstance it would be very obvious that

736
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:18,400
they are behaving like George Wallace. They're the ones who

737
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:24,000
are redolent of the Confederacy and of the massive resistance,

738
00:46:24,639 --> 00:46:28,119
not Trump. And yet somehow in the press this gets

739
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,719
cast as he's breaking norms. Well, he might be pushing

740
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,239
it to the edges. But we had this fight, right,

741
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,199
We had this fight over and over again. Are you

742
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:39,760
allowed to nullify federal law? No, you're bloody well not.

743
00:46:40,519 --> 00:46:41,360
I've sent my piece.

744
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 4: Well.

745
00:46:43,679 --> 00:46:46,519
Speaker 5: I do want to say though, that it's this is

746
00:46:46,559 --> 00:46:49,079
an interesting area, and it's been a kind of a

747
00:46:49,079 --> 00:46:53,559
bugaboo of mine for a long time because when the

748
00:46:54,280 --> 00:47:00,480
Constitution was ratified, the thing that was certain was that

749
00:47:00,519 --> 00:47:06,719
the states had authority over who was lawfully in their territory,

750
00:47:07,199 --> 00:47:10,000
and what wasn't clear was whether there was a federal

751
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:16,119
enforcement role. The Supreme Court over about a century's time,

752
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:22,360
beginning in the early twentieth century, probably late nineteenth century,

753
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:29,320
derived a federal role out of basically two things. One

754
00:47:29,679 --> 00:47:32,599
the notion that the national government is sovereign and has

755
00:47:32,679 --> 00:47:36,719
to protect the borders and is in charge of foreign policy,

756
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,719
is in charge of protecting Americans who are abroad, So

757
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:42,880
that that was one part of it. And then the

758
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:48,480
other part is Congress's the constitutional assignment to Congress an

759
00:47:48,559 --> 00:47:52,840
Article one of naturalization authority, you know, setting the terms

760
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:59,519
of naturalization. From those two things, the court derived a

761
00:47:59,559 --> 00:48:06,000
federal responsibility over immigration enforcement. And then I think what

762
00:48:06,159 --> 00:48:09,559
happened is probably what invariably happens, which is, once the

763
00:48:09,599 --> 00:48:14,920
federal courts invent a federal responsibility, it swallows up the

764
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:20,039
state responsibility. But for a long time we went along

765
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:27,679
and this arrangement worked because federal statutory authority in terms

766
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,679
of enforcement of immigration is very strong. It's very pro

767
00:48:32,519 --> 00:48:36,239
law enforcement. Charlie, you've had to deal with it in

768
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:40,880
a way that you know that Steve and I happened.

769
00:48:41,119 --> 00:48:44,840
But I mean, they're, you know, they're pretty formidable laws.

770
00:48:45,199 --> 00:48:49,800
So you could tolerate a system where the states had

771
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:54,280
the authority to enforce immigration only in so far as

772
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:57,880
it was consistent with federal law. But then what happened

773
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,000
was Obama comes along and he says, no, no, no,

774
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,119
you don't have to use States don't have to comport

775
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:11,400
with federal statutory law. You have to comport with Obama

776
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:16,800
administration immigration policy, which is to not enforce the law,

777
00:49:17,039 --> 00:49:22,320
the federal laws. And I think Scalia rightly said that

778
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,480
if you know, if it was presented to the States

779
00:49:25,599 --> 00:49:29,480
at the convention in Philadelphia in seventeen eighty seven, that

780
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:36,719
you can't protect yourself immigration wise, because that's going to

781
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:40,280
be a federal responsibility, and if they decide to not

782
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:44,039
enforce their own laws, you can't. Then nobody would have

783
00:49:44,119 --> 00:49:47,440
joined this compact. The Constitution wouldn't have been ratified.

784
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,639
Speaker 1: Right Well, Andy, I you know, I kept thinking that

785
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,920
if nothing else, this is kind of glib at kind

786
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,960
of serious point. If nothing else, Trump has taken the

787
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,079
gridlock in Congress and moved it to the judiciary. I mean,

788
00:50:01,119 --> 00:50:03,800
we're just jamming up the courts with all these problems,

789
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,159
right But one reason we love to want to have

790
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:07,960
you back over and over again, Andy, is there's no

791
00:50:08,039 --> 00:50:10,039
gridlock when we have you here. You sort out a

792
00:50:10,079 --> 00:50:12,480
lot of these problems for us and a lot more

793
00:50:12,519 --> 00:50:14,159
always to be said, but we'll have to have you

794
00:50:14,199 --> 00:50:16,440
back soon for the sequels, of which I'm sure there

795
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:17,519
are going to be many.

796
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 4: Probably sooner than later. But great to talk to you guys.

797
00:50:22,159 --> 00:50:26,119
Speaker 1: Thanks Andy, we'll see you soon. See you well, all right, Charlie.

798
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:30,559
You know our listeners can't see that wonderful, splashy blue

799
00:50:30,559 --> 00:50:34,320
flower print shirt you're wearing. It just screams Florida. And

800
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:40,119
also you're obviously back in full fitness after your belt

801
00:50:40,119 --> 00:50:43,239
with the plague whatever it was. And I'm guessing it's

802
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:45,599
because of the sheets you've been using.

803
00:50:46,159 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, And of course I used my sheets more

804
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:50,960
than ever when I was sick, and they were luxurious

805
00:50:51,039 --> 00:50:54,840
to lie on because they're made by Cozy Earth. So

806
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:59,239
Cozy Earth not only keeps me cool in what is

807
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:03,880
now the full fledged Florida summer, but it nursed me

808
00:51:04,599 --> 00:51:06,960
back to hell. So thank you Cozy Earth for that.

809
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810
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811
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,760
lets me sleep like a baby. And here's the thing.

812
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They're not just soft.

813
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Speaker 4: There.

814
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815
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and best of all, Cozy Earth bedding products have a

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That's a whole decade of cool quality sleep. What is that?

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Three years perhaps of sleeping, maybe more, depends how much

819
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you sleep. If you have small children like me, you

820
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sleep less than you shared, which means you don't get

821
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to spend as much time on the cozy air sheets

822
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as you want. But what you do spend is terrific.

823
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Luxury should not be out of reach. So you can

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830
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831
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Speaker 1: All right, Charles, let's get out today with a little

832
00:52:33,039 --> 00:52:36,800
cultural news. Boy. I got a reminder of how old

833
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,079
I'm getting when the news came of the death of

834
00:52:39,079 --> 00:52:40,880
Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys, at the age of

835
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:44,199
eighty two, i'd lost trap. Of course, everyone's getting to

836
00:52:44,199 --> 00:52:46,280
be a ja two from that old rocker generation of

837
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:48,000
the sixties. But you know, I grew up with the

838
00:52:48,039 --> 00:52:51,920
beach boys in California. Was a beach Gord, Laguna Beach, Malibu,

839
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:53,920
all the places they used to sing about.

840
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 5: Uh.

841
00:52:54,519 --> 00:52:57,679
Speaker 1: And it's very emblematic of California in those days, you know,

842
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:00,679
the whole story of the Wilson and the the Mike

843
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:03,159
Love and all the families involved in it, as they

844
00:53:03,159 --> 00:53:05,280
were sort of working class people who'd come to southern

845
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:09,360
California where you could buy a home for quite cheaply

846
00:53:09,519 --> 00:53:11,719
not far from the beach, in places like Long Beach

847
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:15,599
and Huntington Beach and Santa Monica, unlike today. And so

848
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:17,280
that's just a side from the music. There's sort of

849
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:21,719
a cultural connection there too, and I don't know, you know,

850
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,599
that's sort of one of those totems. By the way,

851
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,760
Paul McCartney once said that God Only Knows was the

852
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:32,360
greatest rock and roll song ever written, which I thought

853
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:34,920
was high praise, and I think it was George Martin

854
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:38,360
who said that it was in fact, pet sounds really

855
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,280
great out the greatest dabble of the Beach Boys that

856
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:44,480
inspired the Beatles to excel and Sergeant Pepper. Sergeant Pepper

857
00:53:44,519 --> 00:53:46,800
was the Beatles answer to the Beach Boys because they

858
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,079
thought the Beach Boys were their competition.

859
00:53:50,199 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 2: Well, and they were. I think, really, if you look

860
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,679
back at the sixties and seventies, there are three people

861
00:53:55,679 --> 00:54:00,199
who stand out to me as deserving the label genius.

862
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:06,639
One is Paul McCartney, another is Paul Simon, and then

863
00:54:06,679 --> 00:54:10,239
you have Brian Wilson. The thing about Brian Wilson that's

864
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,800
so interesting is he was crazy. He was not supposed

865
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:16,519
to reach eighty two. Now I don't say that disparagingly,

866
00:54:17,079 --> 00:54:21,559
but he was quite genuinely afflicted by mental illness. He

867
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:26,880
had a form of schizophrenia and he had auditory hallucinations,

868
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,920
and I think the auditory hallucinations helped him. We overplay

869
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:35,840
in our culture the tortured genius. Being mentally ill is

870
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,519
not fun in movies. They often make it look glamorous

871
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:46,119
being an alcoholic. But he derived his ability to do

872
00:54:46,159 --> 00:54:50,559
the work that he did from the same source as

873
00:54:50,599 --> 00:54:54,159
tormented him for so much of his life, and it

874
00:54:54,199 --> 00:54:56,199
really did tormenting me. He had to drop out in

875
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:59,239
the mid sixties from the Beach Boys tours, just as

876
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:03,880
they hit peak popularity, and that allowed him to produce

877
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,880
Pet Sounds, which was basically a Brian Wilson project, and

878
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:10,519
then everyone thought, well, here we go. We're going to

879
00:55:10,519 --> 00:55:13,639
see the sort of second half of the Beach Boys

880
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:16,599
career that you saw in the Beatles, where from nineteen

881
00:55:16,679 --> 00:55:19,920
sixty six on which the Beatles just went super and over,

882
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,280
but Brian Wilson couldn't do it. You get good vibrations

883
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:26,559
and then he falls apart, and he spent the rest

884
00:55:26,599 --> 00:55:30,119
of his life falling apart. He couldn't work for most

885
00:55:30,159 --> 00:55:33,400
of it. He had rare flashes of genius. He spent

886
00:55:33,519 --> 00:55:36,440
years trying to produce one record. He was setting fire

887
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:38,960
to things in the recording studio, putting his feet in sand.

888
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:43,480
But undoubtedly one of the great songwriters of all time.

889
00:55:43,559 --> 00:55:48,000
And if you had told his family in nineteen sixty

890
00:55:48,039 --> 00:55:50,039
six that he would live till eighty two, I think

891
00:55:50,079 --> 00:55:52,360
they would have been shocked, especially given his drug use

892
00:55:52,559 --> 00:55:55,519
and his alcohol use. But he did, which is a

893
00:55:55,519 --> 00:55:57,000
happy ending of sorts.

894
00:55:57,639 --> 00:56:01,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you mentioned sort of the mania that goes

895
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:06,079
along with somebody of various degrees of spectral mental health.

896
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:11,039
I've always been struck by the astounding fact that maybe

897
00:56:11,039 --> 00:56:13,239
the most famous song, or one of them, Good Vibrations,

898
00:56:13,679 --> 00:56:17,159
it took eighty hours in the studio to record that song.

899
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:19,119
And I mean, if I've been one of the other musicians,

900
00:56:19,159 --> 00:56:20,639
I'd have been going out of my mind, I think.

901
00:56:20,639 --> 00:56:21,920
But he was such a perfectionist.

902
00:56:22,199 --> 00:56:22,519
Speaker 2: You can.

903
00:56:22,599 --> 00:56:25,599
Speaker 1: By the way, here's some outtakes of that process in

904
00:56:25,679 --> 00:56:29,079
the collection of records that I think. It was one

905
00:56:29,079 --> 00:56:31,280
of the things that always Wilson wanted to do after

906
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:34,000
Pet Sounds, but had to abandon. But finally a few

907
00:56:34,079 --> 00:56:35,800
years ago someone came out with what they call the

908
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:39,199
Smile Sessions. It's big, long collection, and you have in

909
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:42,119
there some of the outtakes of early cuts of Good

910
00:56:42,199 --> 00:56:45,599
Vibrations and some of the narration, and you get some

911
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:50,000
appreciation for how painsticking and demanding and Perfectioncy was, but

912
00:56:50,039 --> 00:56:52,559
also wanting to do something new and different that just

913
00:56:52,639 --> 00:56:54,920
had a sound that nobody else could come close to.

914
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,239
I mentioned to somebody recently that you know, the other

915
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:02,000
imitating imitators the Beach Boys in those years was jan

916
00:57:02,119 --> 00:57:05,800
and Deine. And the only reason I remember Janetine is

917
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:08,039
their great. One of their great hit was The Little

918
00:57:08,039 --> 00:57:10,480
Old Lady from Pasadena, and since I lived in the

919
00:57:10,519 --> 00:57:13,119
Pasadena area, I sort of remember that. But they weren't

920
00:57:13,119 --> 00:57:14,960
even close, of course. I mean they can kind of

921
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,599
imitate a little bit of the sound. But nobody remembers

922
00:57:17,679 --> 00:57:20,559
Jan and Deine today. But we're gonna remember Brian Wilson

923
00:57:20,679 --> 00:57:22,760
and the Beach Boys for a long time, I think.

924
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 2: I think that's right. And by the way, McCartney was

925
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,119
completely correct when he said that God Only Knows is

926
00:57:28,159 --> 00:57:32,559
the greatest pop song ever written. It's an astonishing work

927
00:57:32,719 --> 00:57:38,079
that really is more classical in its chord structure than

928
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:42,880
most pop music. You got the explosion in the seventies

929
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:45,880
of so called baroque en roll, but that was the

930
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:49,960
first example of it and the best example of it.

931
00:57:50,079 --> 00:57:52,360
I like that song so much, Steve, that I actually

932
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,519
played it at my wedding. It was our first dance song. Well,

933
00:57:55,559 --> 00:57:58,000
I'm a horrible dancer. I'm a very good musician, but

934
00:57:58,039 --> 00:58:00,800
for some reason, my sense of which I do have

935
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:03,840
in my hands when I play instruments, just doesn't translate

936
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:05,480
to the rest of my body. So I end up

937
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,199
looking like some sort of stick insect, having a stroke,

938
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:09,559
but my wife still.

939
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 1: Oh, I want to get some AI generated version of

940
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:22,000
that to show I'll be deported, got stripped of your citizenship?

941
00:58:22,079 --> 00:58:22,239
Speaker 5: Right?

942
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 1: Can a chance to get into all those questions with

943
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:27,679
ay or anybody else, But I think that'll do it

944
00:58:27,679 --> 00:58:31,159
for us this week, Listeners, This podcast was brought to

945
00:58:31,159 --> 00:58:35,360
you by Quality of Synalytic, Cozy Earth, and Bamboo hr.

946
00:58:36,039 --> 00:58:39,320
Please support them for supporting us, And as James likes

947
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,199
to say, please join ricochet dot com, the best place

948
00:58:42,199 --> 00:58:45,679
for civil center right conversation on the web. And as

949
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:48,119
James also likes to say, and I will like to

950
00:58:48,159 --> 00:58:50,360
say it too, please take a minute to leave a

951
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five star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever

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you source your favorite podcast material. Your reviews help us

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get more listeners, and that keeps the show going. And

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so we will see you in the comments. Everybody on Ricochet,

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what are we up to? Four point oh?

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Speaker 2: I've losed a town of things. Four point oh?

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Speaker 1: All right, bye bye everybody, See you next week.