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Speaker 1: You're listening to the poor you whisper on the parent

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rad your network.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 3: Everyone, we have a real interesting subject tonight, a little

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bit different and something that is personally relevant to me

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as well.

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Speaker 4: Uh So hang tight and we'll.

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Speaker 3: Be back to talk about post traumatic growth and also

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a potential link between trauma and the paranormal.

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Speaker 4: With Jackie and Bill Cuslis. Jackie, Bill, thanks for joining me.

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Speaker 5: Hi, Susie, thanks for having us.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, my pleasure.

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Speaker 3: So off the bat before we get too far into

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your your research and your books. I am always very

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curious about couples that are involved in the paranormal together.

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Were you both already interested in the paranormal when you

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met or did that develop with the relationship.

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Speaker 5: What do you think, Honey?

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Speaker 2: Well, I've always been interested in the paranormal, and I

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think that you probably were too because of the Mothman

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prophecy which was very paranormal and other stuff. So yeah,

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I think we're both interested in it before we met.

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Speaker 5: That's fair.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's great. So can you give a little

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bit background on your book, which I am currently in

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the middle of reading.

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Speaker 5: Sure, sure, So Jackie was talking about, you know, our

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backgrounds with you know, to answer your question. And I'm

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somebody who has been into the paranormal really my whole life,

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but I kind of got away from it because life

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gets interesting and busy and crazy and all these different

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things and career and family and all that. In my

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early thirties, I saw the Mothman Prophecies movie just on

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a whim, and I'd really been kind of away from

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the paranormal for a little while, not totally but not

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totally into it either, and I saw the movie and

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it just it really spoke to me. And I think

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what really spoke to me, besides the bizarre stuff that

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happens in the movie, was at the end of it

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when they talked about this was based upon a bridge

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disaster and events that happened in Point Pleasant, West Virginia

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in nineteen sixty six in nineteen sixty seven, and the

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couple things that resonated with me were the weirdness of

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the movie and the fact that the bridge collapsed in

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the same year that I was born, And for whatever reasons,

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those things just really spoke to me. And a few

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years later, I got John Keel's book read that, I

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got the audiobook I listened to that I would be

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embarrassed to tell you how many times I've watched the

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movie and read the book and listened to the book.

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I couldn't count them. It's in the hundreds, if not thousands.

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So it just really grabbed me, and we decided to

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visit Point Pleasant in twenty sixteen. We met Carolyn Harris,

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who ran the Mothman Diner, and Jeff Walmsley, who runs

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the Mothman Museum, and a guy by the name of

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Mark Griffith, and long story short, it just began. It

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became a home away from home. And as much as

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we really enjoyed our time with Carolyn, she passed away

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before we got a chance to go back to see her.

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But she gave us such a sense of belonging in

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Point Pleasant that we kept going back, And after four

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or five years of going back, we decided to write

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a book about the bridge disaster in which Carolyn lost

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her two year old son and her first husband, And

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it just had a profound effect upon the community of

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Point Pleasant and on us.

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Speaker 3: Was it going there and talking to the local people

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that kind of gave you the idea and helped you

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kind of put things together.

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Speaker 2: What do you think, Well, sort of but it was

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actually my idea for the actual topic of the book.

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But Carolyn is the one that inspired us to write

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the book in Point Pleasant, I think, but.

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Speaker 6: The idea came to me to write a book.

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Speaker 2: About trauma or trauma and like the Mothman thing and

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post traumatic growth. So that's kind of how the bridge

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disaster and all the paranormal stuff came up for the

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topic because we literally wanted to write it on Carolyn's

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life instead. Bill wanted to do that, and since she

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had passed away, then the idea came to me to

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do that instead, because that way we could combine all

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of the interests that we had in Point Pleasant in

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the Ohio River Valley because we have interests, so we

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were able to do it that way. I think that's

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answering the question.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. So one of the things that has

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kind of struck me about the personal experiences in the

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book is, you know, I realize I am from not

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only a different part of the country as these people are,

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but also a different generation. And the way they talked

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about their trauma was almost like jarring to me, Like

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the attitude and you know this from like watching you know,

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old TV shows that the attitude was very different in

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the sixties and seventies than it is today. But it

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was very much like, oh, yep, this just happened, I

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have to deal with it. Let's you know, push it aside.

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And was that something that you guys felt as well

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or is that that personal to me?

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Speaker 4: Because that was very very jarring to me.

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Speaker 3: Just to hear it from individuals giving their first hand experiences.

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Speaker 5: So when you asked that question, Susie, I'm kind of

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going back in my head to the interviews that we conducted,

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and the ones that jump out to me would be

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Linda Lane and Susan Sayer, And if you're not all

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the way through the book, I don't know if you've

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read Marva Bailey yet, but all three of them said

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things along those lines. They didn't have counselors, they didn't

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have grief therapy, they didn't have what we have at

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our disposal today where we break a shoelace and we

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can go talk to somebody about it. They had this

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major disaster happened in this small community and you know,

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a really big proportion of folks. There are forty six

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people drowned or died in the Silver Bridge disaster four

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thousand people in town, so it had a profound effect

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upon the lives of these people. But yeah, I mean,

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I think about some of the challenges that I've faced

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in my life, nothing is profound or as powerful as

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what they went through. But I have help, you know,

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I have people I can go talk to, and they

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they did have a good, strong sense of community. But

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they didn't have psychologists. They didn't have psychiatrists, they didn't

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have grief counseling. So that, yeah, it was very when

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you talk about, you know, Harriet. Harriet talked about in

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her interview that just pull yourself up by the bootstraps

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is the West Virginia mantra and I get that. But wow, powerful,

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powerful disaster.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And to your point they that was another takeaway

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for me is that that community really did come together

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through that. I'm from a town that was about population

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seven thousand maybe, and I'm you know, once in a

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while you'd have, you know, a death in town one

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and it would have a huge impact. So I can't

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imagine forty six in my town was almost twice as big.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Susan Sayer mentioned that she remembered the day when they

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went in and took out. I can't think of the

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late I feel really big because I can't think of

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her name now, Kathy Bias when they took her desk out.

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Speaker 5: And.

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Speaker 2: She said, it was really really sad. It was really sad.

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And they all watched this desk going out of the room.

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You know, that's just how things were done back then,

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and to me, it just seems unreal.

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Speaker 6: And then the other.

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Speaker 2: Thing that seemed really kind of unreal to me was,

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and this is something I'd never heard before and I've

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not heard it since, was Charlene Westwood said that one

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of the teachers.

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Speaker 6: There were two teachers on the bridge. They both passed away.

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Speaker 2: One of them was on the way to the hospital

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to actually give birth to her a baby. And I

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don't know if that baby's life was considered a fatality

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or not. Probably not, because they probably didn't do that

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kind of stuff back then, you know it probably I don't.

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Speaker 6: It wasn't named.

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Speaker 2: And when you look at the list of the names

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of people that are memorialized, there's that baby such and such.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And no one ever talks about that part of it, right,

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you know, everyone's so focused on Mothman. And I understand

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that but this particular tragedy is so glossed.

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Speaker 4: Over and it gets kind of buried in all of that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she said they had to go back to school

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and everybody was just numb, just numb. And I know

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how that I just lost my mom like three and

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a hal months ago whatever. And I've told build today

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that I pretty much have been numb. I cried every

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a little bit here and there. But that's what happens.

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People go numb on that kind of stuff, you know,

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And we have people we can talk to.

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Speaker 6: Now I don't know how they survived.

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Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah. So as you're you know,

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speaking of these people.

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Speaker 3: And you know, seeing the similarities of differences, how do

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you guys relate that to the paranormal experiences.

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Speaker 5: That's a great question. When we put our research plan

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together for bridging the tragedy, and we contacted the local

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newspapers in Point Pleasant because we needed more participants. We

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had a number of people that came forward, but not

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enough for the study. And so Ashley Walmsley, who is

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Jeff's daughter, said, why don't you get a hold of

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besth Surgeon. She's the main person over at the newspaper

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here in town, let her know what you're looking to do,

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and you know, talk to her and see if she'll

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help you. So we scheduled a phone call with her,

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and I talked to her, and she said, we don't

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mind you guys coming to town doing this. We think

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it's great, you know, but what you can't do is

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you can't combine the Silver Bridge disaster with Mothman. You

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have to be very sensitive to that because this is

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still very real here and even though it's been fifty

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plus years, it's still very serious in our community. And

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so I assured her that we would not do that.

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So we came up with two research questions. One of

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them was what are the dimensions of post traumatic growth

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people who experienced as a result of going for a

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bridge divester? And the second question was what are the

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dimensions of post traumatic growth for people who experienced the

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high strangeness in the Ohio River Valley in nineteen sixty

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six and nineteen sixty seven. So we did them separately,

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and we asked everybody both questions, but not everybody answered

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both questions. I think everyone did answer the Silver Bridge

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even though we had a couple of people who were

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in Charleston so the Silver Bridge was a long way

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away for them, and they were seven years old at

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the time, so it didn't impact them directly like their

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paranormal experiences did. And then conversely, the people who were

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in Point Pleasant that we talked to, none of them

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were actually Mothman witnesses. A couple of them had seen UFOs,

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a couple of them had had some strange things happen,

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but they didn't really experience the Silver Bridge I'm sorry,

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the Mothman or the paranormal activity. So when we conducted

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the research and did all the questioning and through the interviews,

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and we went through what's known as coding process, which

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is where you analyze the data and then put it together,

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we ended up with dimensions of post traumatic growth, but

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they weren't necessarily showing a correlation between Mothman and the

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Bridge disaster, which is exactly what Beth asked us to do,

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and really it was the way that we wanted to

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go with the project anyway. So in that book, we

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aren't necessarily investigating a relationship between Mothman, UFO men in

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Black poultergeist activity and the Silver Bridge disaster. We're not

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doing that in this Our next book is going to

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do exactly that, but not with the Silver Bridge disaster

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unless we interview somebody who has been through the Mothman thing.

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But I'm not sure if I answered your question directly

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or not, but that was the thoughts behind the process

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that we followed.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I personally feel like.

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Speaker 3: That was, you know, the silver Bridge collapse being related

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to Mothman kind of got put onto this after the fact.

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But you've spoken to these people firsthand. Do you feel

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that they agree with that that it was, you know,

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something a theory that came up with afterwards or did

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any any do any of the local people, even if

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not in the book, do they ever relate that or

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is it completely you know, out of left fields.

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Speaker 5: Can you speak to that.

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Speaker 2: I would think that that's out of left field because

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I don't think people in Point Pleasant combine them at all.

240
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Like like we were told early on that people would

241
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be offended by that, and they were. There's a shirt

242
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at one of the stores, and I won't say which store,

243
00:14:52,559 --> 00:14:56,519
doesn't Point Pleasant that has the Mothman on the bridge

244
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and they really do not like that. Because every body

245
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:05,200
we have spoken to in the study and Endpoint Pleasant

246
00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,360
all have said They've never heard of anybody ever seeing

247
00:15:09,399 --> 00:15:11,600
Mothman on the bridge before it went down.

248
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Speaker 4: So yeah, I think.

249
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Speaker 3: Sometimes times things get sensationalized down the road to for

250
00:15:26,759 --> 00:15:27,960
views or to sell.

251
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Speaker 5: I've one that really believes that we talk about Mothman

252
00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:36,080
today because of the Silver Bridge disaster, not because they

253
00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:44,080
were related, but because in folklore they've been combined. And

254
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if you think about having thirteen months worth of paranormal

255
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activity going on in a community and then at the

256
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very end of that, this horrible disaster happens, which really

257
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quiets down the other sightings and other experiences. They didn't

258
00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,279
go away, they didn't stop happening. Jeff Walsley told us

259
00:16:01,519 --> 00:16:03,679
people didn't want to hear about that stuff anymore. Danny

260
00:16:03,679 --> 00:16:05,919
Bellamy told us they didn't want to talk about that

261
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,679
crazy thing anymore. We're burying people now, so this is

262
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really very real to us. So I think I think

263
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that because the Silver Bridge fell when it did, it

264
00:16:16,559 --> 00:16:21,840
really marked the whole Mothman saga with a depth and

265
00:16:21,879 --> 00:16:25,000
a gravity that it wouldn't have without the bridge disaster happening.

266
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I'm not one that believes Mothman caused the bridge disaster.

267
00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:33,879
Excuse me and I don't know that it necessarily foretold,

268
00:16:33,919 --> 00:16:38,320
although that's popular and I like to think that that

269
00:16:38,399 --> 00:16:40,919
it foretold and warned the people, But I don't know

270
00:16:40,919 --> 00:16:43,919
that that's the case. I do think because the bridge

271
00:16:43,919 --> 00:16:47,879
collapsed when it did, that's why Mothman has become so famous.

272
00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,440
Speaker 2: Can I say one thing about the pure normal link

273
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,879
between Mothman and the bridge that nobody can deny in

274
00:16:56,919 --> 00:17:03,720
my opinion, So November fifteenth, nineteen sixty six, the very

275
00:17:03,759 --> 00:17:08,279
first reporting reported sighting to the police department of Mothman

276
00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,079
was it was reported and then thirteen months to the

277
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:18,680
day the bridge collapsed. There are so many thirteens in

278
00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:22,720
an investigating Mothman of Point Pleasant and Mothman of Chicago

279
00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:28,200
Land Area, Chicago, Lake, Michigan, whatever, that that in itself

280
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:34,319
is paranormal, because it's either that or it's highly coincidental

281
00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:36,880
that it's exactly thirteen months to the day, because you

282
00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,960
can find thirteens and thirty one's all over Point Pleasant

283
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:45,359
and all over Chicago Mothman sightings and reporting and things.

284
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So I mean, it's I guess it depends on what

285
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:55,640
people consider paranormal, but in my mind that's significant in

286
00:17:55,839 --> 00:18:04,200
paranormal research when you're finding mirrored number correlations and we're

287
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,039
not making Oh it was thirteen months. It was thirteen

288
00:18:06,079 --> 00:18:06,839
months to the day.

289
00:18:07,079 --> 00:18:12,480
Speaker 3: So and you've done I believe it was spirit box

290
00:18:13,079 --> 00:18:17,640
activities in Point Pleasant. You had some interesting I'd call

291
00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:19,319
it almost like trickster.

292
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:21,319
Speaker 4: Activity there.

293
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:29,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, go ahead and talk about honey, you like talking

294
00:18:29,799 --> 00:18:30,160
about it.

295
00:18:30,319 --> 00:18:36,039
Speaker 6: Uh, oh, he's muted. So yeah, because.

296
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:39,799
Speaker 2: The spirit box has taken us all over the place,

297
00:18:39,799 --> 00:18:43,200
which is very strange because we were actually investigating Chicago

298
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,920
mockman stuff in Robinson Woods because it's near the O'Hare

299
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,240
Airport and it's one of the most haunted woods in

300
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:56,880
Chicago land or in Illinois actually, and the spirit box

301
00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,519
we asked what thirteen and thirty one have to do

302
00:18:59,599 --> 00:19:01,279
with any of it, and it set a place to

303
00:19:01,319 --> 00:19:04,920
go visit. So when we looked at intersections of thirteen

304
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,440
and thirty one in Illinois and in West Virginia and Ohio,

305
00:19:10,279 --> 00:19:15,880
it literally took us to right outside Parkersburg in a

306
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:20,839
little subdivision or a little suburb called Vienna, and there

307
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:22,799
was a thirteen and thirty one there, and all of

308
00:19:22,799 --> 00:19:24,920
the stuff that we were getting from that took us

309
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,359
to to Anyway Park because it was giving us things

310
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:32,640
like keys, box, bones, obelis. I can't even remember all

311
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:34,319
the different things. I could look back because I have

312
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,519
all the transcriptions and I studied them quite a lot

313
00:19:37,519 --> 00:19:38,319
a few years ago.

314
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,799
Speaker 6: And so where do you go?

315
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,680
Speaker 2: We go back to Point Pleasant and to get Bill

316
00:19:44,759 --> 00:19:46,799
because he wasn't with us on that. And when we

317
00:19:46,839 --> 00:19:52,119
got back to Point Pleasant, we're like, wait a minute, bones, obolas,

318
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,240
the key and all these other little things that you're getting,

319
00:19:56,279 --> 00:19:59,400
and it's like today Park was another one park. So

320
00:20:00,079 --> 00:20:02,839
Way Park is at the point in Point Pleasant where

321
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:09,000
Chief Cornstock the seven remaining bones of his are buried there,

322
00:20:09,039 --> 00:20:12,680
and he's got an obelist in his for a memorial.

323
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:12,799
Speaker 6: For him there.

324
00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,880
Speaker 2: And so we did a spirit box session there and

325
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,079
I don't remember a lot of that because I was

326
00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:23,680
the one that was receiving that. Bill was asking questions

327
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,960
and our friend that was with us was asking questions.

328
00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,599
And from there we ended up going to the T

329
00:20:29,759 --> 00:20:31,880
and T where we were going to do a spirit

330
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,680
box and I can't remember what led us there, but

331
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,160
once we got there, I said, I think we need

332
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,960
to be going to Charleston and doing a spirit box

333
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,599
there instead, because we can always come back to the

334
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:43,640
T and T anytime.

335
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,400
Speaker 6: We've been there hundreds of times. And we ended up

336
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:46,839
going to.

337
00:20:48,559 --> 00:20:53,359
Speaker 2: North Charleston and doing spirit Box sessions there, and the

338
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,519
very first one there was the scariest and shortest we've

339
00:20:56,559 --> 00:21:01,240
ever done, and it told us to leave, and we left.

340
00:21:01,599 --> 00:21:07,400
And our whole purpose besides going to go to this

341
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,559
one area, was we also wanted to go to the

342
00:21:09,559 --> 00:21:13,480
confluence of the river where the bridge collapsed on December

343
00:21:13,519 --> 00:21:17,000
fifteenth in Charleston. And we got there and we literally

344
00:21:17,039 --> 00:21:20,319
forgot everything after that, and we went and ate lunch

345
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,680
and went straight back to Point Plusant and We're like.

346
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,960
Speaker 6: What what are we doing? We didn't even go to

347
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:29,079
the confluence, you know.

348
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,480
Speaker 2: That was the whole point of wanting to go on

349
00:21:31,559 --> 00:21:34,279
that visit to Charleston was to check out the confluence

350
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,359
of the two rivers there. So there was all kinds

351
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,720
of strange, strange stuff on that on all of those

352
00:21:41,759 --> 00:21:44,759
spirit Box sessions, And I even remembered one that I

353
00:21:44,759 --> 00:21:47,319
had forgotten about before we even took off to go

354
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:52,240
to Parkersburg. We were getting we did one in the

355
00:21:52,279 --> 00:21:55,799
hotel room and we pulled a tarot card and I

356
00:21:55,839 --> 00:21:58,000
can't remember, but it was significant and I wish I

357
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,480
could remember what it was. And the spirit box talked

358
00:22:02,559 --> 00:22:10,039
about a big man, an orator, just like all these

359
00:22:10,279 --> 00:22:14,119
all these other things that later on we learned that

360
00:22:14,319 --> 00:22:18,400
Chief Cornstock stood six foot six and was an orator.

361
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,400
He was like famous for his speaking, you know. So

362
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,799
there was all of this too before we even got

363
00:22:24,839 --> 00:22:29,039
started with spirit boxes in Point in West Virginia. We

364
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,880
had all of these indications. And then there was also

365
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,839
stuff about Mason, the family name of Mason. So I

366
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,279
did all this tracking back of Mason County, Mason, George Mason,

367
00:22:39,319 --> 00:22:42,400
and all these other Masons that are linked to Point

368
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,200
Pleasant and it was just like the stuff when you

369
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,400
really start to just take apart all of the data

370
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:55,640
of the spirit boxes. Definitely some major stuff. And then

371
00:22:55,799 --> 00:22:59,000
the dance studio one that was huge. We really had

372
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,400
somebody messing with us. There were four of us there

373
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:06,279
at the dance studio, and it was literally messing with

374
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,359
each and every one of us, but specifically Bill, because

375
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,640
Bill kept getting indured over and over in his spirit box.

376
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,319
We had two spirit box going and two people asking questions,

377
00:23:16,519 --> 00:23:18,160
So I mean we were all getting messed with. But

378
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,279
he kept saying again again, and we're like, okay, well,

379
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,480
we don't know what you're hearing. You're not telling us,

380
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:27,880
but we got cold asso and we thought that was

381
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,200
probably something to do with the bridge going down. So

382
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,519
I don't know if that's what you were like keen into,

383
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,079
because I don't remember everything I talk about when I

384
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,480
talk about the spirit boxes, because we just get too

385
00:23:40,559 --> 00:23:43,200
much information. I mean there's a lot. I have a

386
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,680
bid of transcriptions on those.

387
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:46,559
Speaker 4: Yeah.

388
00:23:46,599 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 3: I remember when we had talked about the Chicago mock

389
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,000
Man and you had talked about kind of the wild

390
00:23:53,039 --> 00:23:59,359
Goose Chase on your spirit box sessions, and also the

391
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,160
numerology behind it as well. You briefly touched on that,

392
00:24:04,279 --> 00:24:09,000
but from what I remember from Chicago Mothman that the

393
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:14,599
numbers involved had some pretty big significance as well.

394
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,559
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, there's an awful lot of thirteens and thirty one.

395
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,480
It's it's like almost unreal. You just keep finding more

396
00:24:21,519 --> 00:24:25,079
and more and more of these things, and it's like, yeah,

397
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,640
I mean one of the parks as Park actually in

398
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,880
Chicago Land area, where a sighting was at, which that's

399
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,359
where the ruby red Eyes come in, you know, And

400
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,680
we have these red eyes and Mothman in Point Pleasant.

401
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,640
Now we have ruby red Eyes in Chicago, and os

402
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,400
Park is thirteen square miles, so it's like it's just

403
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,200
I mean, it's just all over the place, all over

404
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:47,640
the place.

405
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:53,279
Speaker 5: We had a conversation, Susie with Steve a few months

406
00:24:53,279 --> 00:24:56,799
ago with Sam Moronto that you have the move on

407
00:24:57,559 --> 00:25:00,079
person who's a good front of ours, and he he

408
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,720
got us really kind of introduced to all of the

409
00:25:02,759 --> 00:25:04,960
stuff that was going on with the Chicago reports and

410
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,640
all this. And although we believe the reports are very

411
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:12,079
highly suspect, there is a strange undercurrent that underlies all

412
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,119
of what's happened. And that's what Jackie's talking about with

413
00:25:15,279 --> 00:25:19,279
the numerical coincidences, the reverses of the thirteens and the

414
00:25:19,319 --> 00:25:22,640
thirty ones. Thirty one is very prominent in Chicago, thirteen

415
00:25:22,759 --> 00:25:26,359
is very prominent Point Pleasant. But there seems to be

416
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,319
some type of a guiding force that's underlying what's going on,

417
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,319
and maybe maybe the phenomena is being co created by

418
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,920
the people who are getting involved with it. Like John

419
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,960
Keel talked about that it kind of takes on. It

420
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,240
takes on what you expected to based upon your own

421
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,359
belief systems and what you're bringing to the table with

422
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,519
the way you research. And my voice is going a

423
00:25:50,519 --> 00:25:53,160
little wonky on me. I'm sorry about that. I drank

424
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,079
something and it went down my windpipe and that's why

425
00:25:55,079 --> 00:25:56,000
I've been so quiet.

426
00:25:57,559 --> 00:26:00,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's happened to the best of us on these things.

427
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,880
It's funny that you talk about it in that way.

428
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,480
A couple of years ago I kind of had.

429
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 4: I guess you could.

430
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 3: Call it paranormal experiences, but mine was in the form

431
00:26:18,039 --> 00:26:23,920
of nightmares, and I felt like I was getting like

432
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:29,880
breadcrumbed by. I'd have this reoccurring nightmare, I'd figure out

433
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,960
what something meant in that nightmare, and then I'd have

434
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:39,400
like a weird coincidence in real life. And this went

435
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,480
on for over a year, probably close to two years.

436
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,039
I was like chasing things down to try to figure

437
00:26:47,039 --> 00:26:51,400
out what was going on. And this all culminated in

438
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,200
me finding the house that the nightmare took place in.

439
00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:02,240
And I pulled up to the house and a shed

440
00:27:02,319 --> 00:27:06,440
in the backyard caught on fire, and I said, okay, this.

441
00:27:06,559 --> 00:27:10,079
Speaker 4: Is I don't this isn't good. I'm not getting like

442
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:11,400
good energy from this.

443
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,079
Speaker 3: I think this is trying to like distract me from

444
00:27:14,079 --> 00:27:18,039
something maybe, and I said, I'm not putting any more thought, energy,

445
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,319
emotions into this. It's been consuming my life and going

446
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:26,799
to ignore it. Nightmare stopped after I made that decision

447
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,640
to not give it any energy or entertain it at all.

448
00:27:32,599 --> 00:27:37,640
So I do think that our own thoughts and beliefs

449
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,960
can kind of feed into things like that sometimes.

450
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 4: Whether it's good or bad.

451
00:27:42,759 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 3: I think because I have had I would say the

452
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,720
same type of thing happen, but in a positive way

453
00:27:48,759 --> 00:27:50,200
that one just happened to be negative.

454
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 2: I've heard say that once a phenomena notices that you've

455
00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:01,440
noticed it, it starts noticing you. So if you start

456
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,279
playing what the phenomena, it starts playing back.

457
00:28:05,519 --> 00:28:08,519
Speaker 4: M h m hmm. Yep. Absolutely.

458
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,599
Speaker 5: I was going to say that, Oh, Jackie's got a

459
00:28:11,599 --> 00:28:14,440
T shirt from the Mothman Museum and on the back

460
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,319
of the shirt is a saying from John Keel that

461
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,920
says the universe does not exist as we think it does,

462
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,079
and that we do not exist as we think that

463
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,680
we do. And I think human beings are a lot

464
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:29,079
more powerful than we give ourselves credit for. We don't

465
00:28:29,079 --> 00:28:31,839
know what we don't know about our own abilities, you know,

466
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,920
latent abilities, and I think the ancients had a better clue,

467
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:40,039
you know, in terms of psychic ability or the spiritual

468
00:28:40,119 --> 00:28:42,799
universe or what have you. They were much more connected

469
00:28:42,799 --> 00:28:46,400
to that powerful reality that we were kind of disconnected

470
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,599
from now. And I think it's been done by design

471
00:28:48,759 --> 00:28:52,079
through societies and governments and yes, in the hidden hand

472
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,359
and all this type of thing. But we certainly can

473
00:28:55,519 --> 00:28:59,640
manifest different things, both positive and negative, depending upon our

474
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,359
focus our intent.

475
00:29:02,119 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, you kind of just struck on one of my

476
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,799
passion points. And I feel like, you know, the people

477
00:29:08,839 --> 00:29:13,079
that are kind of drawn to the paranormal or what

478
00:29:13,119 --> 00:29:17,640
we would call like witchcraft today or paganism, it's just

479
00:29:18,079 --> 00:29:22,400
us trying to get back to the point before we

480
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,880
were colonized. Because white people were colonized too, it's just

481
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:31,079
much longer ago. And I think it's you know, the

482
00:29:31,119 --> 00:29:34,160
way we live now is not natural. It's not how

483
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,599
any of us we're really meant to live. Some people

484
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:44,599
have an easier time adjusting to that. But I think

485
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,400
that when you start to.

486
00:29:48,039 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 4: Work on like.

487
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,079
Speaker 3: Decolonization and you know, get away from all of that

488
00:29:54,039 --> 00:29:57,200
and reconnect with the land, that you live on first

489
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,119
and foremost, if you like the you know, the the

490
00:30:00,119 --> 00:30:03,880
culture that my ancestors would have been before they recolonized

491
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,279
is now gone. So yes, there are ways I can

492
00:30:07,319 --> 00:30:10,559
reconnect with that. But for me, what's been more meaningful

493
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:15,319
is reconnecting to the land that I live on, and

494
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,960
that's how I've been working on that. But look to

495
00:30:19,079 --> 00:30:22,680
your point, the people at that point had a much

496
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,880
better understanding of how the universe works, in my opinion.

497
00:30:27,119 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 2: And the abilities that we all have, and so many

498
00:30:34,519 --> 00:30:37,599
people don't even believe they have that ability.

499
00:30:38,559 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 4: I was one of those until very recently. I had

500
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:51,839
just so many coincidences.

501
00:30:49,519 --> 00:30:52,759
Speaker 3: And I even had at one point a TV thrown

502
00:30:52,799 --> 00:30:56,319
at me, just completely thrown at me, off of my bureau,

503
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:02,160
straight at me. And I'm still through the whole time

504
00:31:02,279 --> 00:31:06,599
denying its paranormal. I actually I was talking to someone earlier.

505
00:31:06,839 --> 00:31:10,279
When I was a kid, I had a dream not

506
00:31:10,519 --> 00:31:14,559
about the Oklahoma City bombings, but my mother's reaction to

507
00:31:14,599 --> 00:31:22,039
it before it happened, and I had had experiences where

508
00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:27,599
I'd seen things that happened in the past, specifically how

509
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,039
the land used to look like in the past, and

510
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,759
I just completely would not think of it as any

511
00:31:35,799 --> 00:31:38,920
kind of ability or paranormal activity for the longest time.

512
00:31:39,599 --> 00:31:43,279
Speaker 2: So when this TV went flying at you, what did

513
00:31:43,319 --> 00:31:44,799
you think of what's happening?

514
00:31:45,359 --> 00:31:45,519
Speaker 1: So?

515
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 3: Well, the first thing I did was figure out where

516
00:31:48,559 --> 00:31:51,960
my cats were, right, because I have one that's a

517
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:57,240
little bit spirited. And then I figured I must just

518
00:31:57,279 --> 00:31:59,680
not be smart enough to figure out what happened here.

519
00:32:00,799 --> 00:32:04,039
That was always my default is I just don't understand

520
00:32:04,039 --> 00:32:07,519
what happened. Yeah, that's what I would fall back on.

521
00:32:08,119 --> 00:32:10,359
Speaker 2: I still do that, though, I still like scratch my

522
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:15,160
head and it takes like sometimes a couple of days

523
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,440
for me to realize that what just happened is not normal.

524
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 6: But like when we went to.

525
00:32:20,359 --> 00:32:25,279
Speaker 2: Wisconsin, the hotel room light kept switching itself off and

526
00:32:25,319 --> 00:32:28,079
on in the vestibule area when you walk in, and

527
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,359
it's like we're there for like a couple of days

528
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,160
before we even realize this thing shutting itself off and on,

529
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,039
and it's like, wait a minute, wait a minute, you know,

530
00:32:36,519 --> 00:32:39,160
and it's like, okay, so this is weird. And it

531
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,799
wasn't until I mean it was weird. And I got

532
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,359
several videos on my iPad of it going off and

533
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,000
on and nobody's clearly by the switch turning it off

534
00:32:47,039 --> 00:32:49,599
and on, And it wasn't weird until we got back

535
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:55,039
home and the interview that we did in that hotel room,

536
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,880
when I went to put it onto YouTube and to

537
00:32:59,599 --> 00:33:03,400
like transcription, to start transscription on my iPad, where I

538
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,160
did the recordings of the light going off and on

539
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,079
after like ten minutes, this interview that's just a guy talking,

540
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:17,599
goes into this. I mean, just like for the rust

541
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,599
of the entire interview. So we always record on several

542
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,279
devices because something strange always happens. But when that happened,

543
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,200
I'm like, okay, so this is legit. There was something

544
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,559
going on with that switch. There was something going.

545
00:33:31,359 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 6: On in that room.

546
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, for me, it was. There was multiple things that

547
00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:42,839
happened on this one day. But one of the things

548
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:47,680
that I had perceived or seen I was able to

549
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,319
verify was correct afterwards. And I had no idea going

550
00:33:52,359 --> 00:33:57,039
in even like what I was walking into. So that

551
00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,920
one thing I could verify because I had seen it.

552
00:34:00,759 --> 00:34:02,480
I went home and I was able. I had to

553
00:34:02,519 --> 00:34:05,119
make some phone calls, do some research, but eventually I

554
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,200
was able to verify it, and then I was like, okay,

555
00:34:07,599 --> 00:34:08,480
like there's something here.

556
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:10,800
Speaker 4: It's not my brain doing something weird.

557
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:12,599
Speaker 6: Yeah.

558
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 5: The interview that Jackie was talking about that we did

559
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:20,119
in Central Wisconsin was with Dean Bertram, you know Dean, right, Yes, yep,

560
00:34:20,519 --> 00:34:25,280
it was with Dean. Wonderful guy, fantastic conversation, had a

561
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,960
great time with him, spent most of the day with him.

562
00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:32,639
And Jackie's right. I mean, when we first got to

563
00:34:32,679 --> 00:34:36,000
the hotel room, there was something strange about it because

564
00:34:36,039 --> 00:34:38,920
the light in the bathroom shut itself off while I

565
00:34:39,039 --> 00:34:42,159
was in the bathroom, and I got up, turned the

566
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,920
light on and it came back on. But then we

567
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,719
heard this click click click click, and it kept going

568
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,039
on and off and on and off and on and off.

569
00:34:50,079 --> 00:34:52,760
It was just super bizarre. And then all the rest

570
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,679
of the interviews besides the one, or all of the rest

571
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,719
that recording devices except for the one that Jackie was

572
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,440
talking about, fine. I mean I listened to and transcribed

573
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,079
Dean's entire interview, and I had no problem except he

574
00:35:06,119 --> 00:35:08,199
has a pretty thick accent, so I had to listen

575
00:35:08,679 --> 00:35:11,920
pretty closely. But that one that she had, I mean,

576
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:13,400
it was just really crazy.

577
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, but so not everyone has these experiences. So from

578
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:29,199
the research you've done and just personal experiences. Do you

579
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,000
think that you know, maybe people are like I used

580
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,199
to be and just in denial about these things or

581
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:39,039
not open to them, or do some people legitimately experience

582
00:35:39,119 --> 00:35:40,119
things and others don't.

583
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:47,079
Speaker 5: So from where I'm sitting, Jackie is the conduit in

584
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:51,840
our hot activities that we see because I've not really

585
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,920
had many of them. I had a couple of things

586
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,679
that really probably were more stress related that I experienced

587
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,360
some weirdness, like twenty five years ago. But since we've

588
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:07,159
been together, I've watched her obviously be present during the

589
00:36:07,199 --> 00:36:09,840
time we were with Dean, and that was her device

590
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:14,039
that went wonky on us when she had a legal

591
00:36:14,079 --> 00:36:17,920
issue going on within the family. She was really upset

592
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,639
one day and a light bulb exploded right next to her.

593
00:36:22,199 --> 00:36:24,480
There was another time about a year and a half ago,

594
00:36:24,519 --> 00:36:27,599
I had a traumatic back injury and I was sitting

595
00:36:27,679 --> 00:36:32,079
in my recliner on morphine tablets and really was pretty

596
00:36:32,159 --> 00:36:35,679
much useless, and she was sitting next to our breakfast

597
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,960
bar and what was it that started rolling towards you?

598
00:36:39,119 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 2: And it was an orange It rolled like an inch

599
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,000
from stop, like an inch from my arm.

600
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 5: So it's a brand new house. We've only been here

601
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,280
for like a month before I got hurt, and so

602
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,159
everything is lined up, it's all new. So it's not

603
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,960
like it was tilted. That the thing wasn't tilted, but.

604
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:01,079
Speaker 2: This stone countertop, so it wasn't like vibration either that

605
00:37:01,079 --> 00:37:04,199
would have moved this orange because I mean, you can

606
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,880
pound on a stone countertop and it's just not going

607
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:11,480
to make things roll. And yeah, that was weird.

608
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 5: And she's had other experiences like family members coming to

609
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,639
her in her sleep or in her dreams. I had

610
00:37:20,679 --> 00:37:24,079
experienced a loss of a gentleman who passed away from

611
00:37:24,119 --> 00:37:27,760
cancer about fifteen years ago, and Jackie was in a

612
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,360
deep meditative state and he came to her during the

613
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,239
meditation and told her to thank me for what I

614
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,719
had done for him. I mean, I've seen, you know,

615
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:43,280
countless things that other people would call, you know, coincidence

616
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,559
or what have you, or craziness. And I know she's

617
00:37:46,559 --> 00:37:49,320
a very sane person, but I think she's a conduit

618
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,920
to this. And Harriet from Bridging the Tragedy is profoundly

619
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,960
psychic and she thinks that Jackie is also.

620
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 3: How do you feel about that, Jackie, Well, I guess.

621
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,079
Speaker 2: I mean, I Harriet told me my biggest my biggest

622
00:38:11,079 --> 00:38:14,000
problem is I don't trust myself, and she goes, sometimes

623
00:38:14,039 --> 00:38:16,840
you will be wrong because that's just the way it is,

624
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,079
and that I just need to trust myself more.

625
00:38:19,119 --> 00:38:24,079
Speaker 6: So now that I trust myself more, I'm even more.

626
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 2: Demanding with Bill when I say something, listen, because for

627
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,960
most of our relationship, he's just kind of like, if

628
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,000
it's not his idea, it's not an idea at all.

629
00:38:38,639 --> 00:38:41,000
So I learned, you know, pretty quick in our relationship

630
00:38:41,039 --> 00:38:42,599
that I had to make it his idea for me

631
00:38:42,639 --> 00:38:47,119
to get my way. But after talking with Harriet and realizing, like, yeah,

632
00:38:47,199 --> 00:38:50,159
I have been in touch and in tune with things

633
00:38:50,199 --> 00:38:53,960
my entire life. And I mean I literally had one

634
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,159
time I was fourteen years old and I was at

635
00:38:57,199 --> 00:38:59,719
a payphone with my best friend and Polo, a little

636
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,039
tiny town that I grew up in, and an ambulance

637
00:39:02,079 --> 00:39:04,599
went past and headed towards one of the big towns

638
00:39:04,639 --> 00:39:07,400
that would have a hospital, and I freaked out and

639
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,079
I'm like yelling, Andrea, my sister's in there. My sister's

640
00:39:10,079 --> 00:39:13,360
in there. And I threw up and she's like, no,

641
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,559
it can't be your sister. How would I know that

642
00:39:15,639 --> 00:39:17,440
even you know, she talked me down off the cliff

643
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,239
and then okay, you know it was just my imagination.

644
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:21,679
Speaker 6: I don't know what it was. I don't know why

645
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,559
I got physically sick. My sister tried to commit suicide

646
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:26,199
and she was in that ambulance.

647
00:39:26,559 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 2: So I have known all of my life that sometimes

648
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,639
I know stuff. And I was also taught most of

649
00:39:35,679 --> 00:39:36,679
my life that.

650
00:39:39,079 --> 00:39:40,079
Speaker 6: Trust myself.

651
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:42,519
Speaker 2: I was always taught that, you know, I'm just not

652
00:39:42,599 --> 00:39:45,639
trustworthy or whatever. For some reason, I didn't believe that

653
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:50,679
what I thought or knew or whatever wasn't trustworthy. So,

654
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:52,840
I mean, I grew up in an alcoholic home, so

655
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,320
my dad wasn't trustworthy. So I think it was just

656
00:39:55,400 --> 00:40:00,239
like something that was attached to all of us because

657
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:02,280
there was no trust in the house, you know, And

658
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,960
I mean we had stuff happening. My very first earliest memory,

659
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,280
I think I've told you this before, was when all

660
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,719
four of us kids, my brother and two sisters and

661
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:15,239
I all got up and went to our bedroom doors

662
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,400
and looked out our bedroom doors and saw Jesus stand,

663
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:18,880
an apparition in Jesus stand at the.

664
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:19,599
Speaker 6: End of the hallway.

665
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 2: And it's like, not everybody can say that you're seeing

666
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,280
that when you're like three or four years old, you know,

667
00:40:24,599 --> 00:40:26,599
it's like, so that was like my one of my

668
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,079
earliest memories of anything that was just really odd, but

669
00:40:30,199 --> 00:40:34,159
our parents told us it didn't happen. So when you're

670
00:40:34,159 --> 00:40:37,960
hearing that, you can't believe what you're seeing or hearing

671
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,239
or things that are happening in the house, like the

672
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,000
door shut and closed and shut and closed, you know,

673
00:40:43,039 --> 00:40:46,920
I mean open, shut, slam and shut, you know, and

674
00:40:47,119 --> 00:40:50,079
being told that you know it's the wind or whatever

675
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,039
it is, then you kind of just want to believe

676
00:40:53,079 --> 00:40:56,679
that you're nuts that you know.

677
00:40:57,079 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 4: Did my life just yes, that's never happened before.

678
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,760
Speaker 5: That's my wife.

679
00:41:07,039 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 4: So while you're talking about that.

680
00:41:09,079 --> 00:41:14,639
Speaker 3: So I've done like almost nineteen years worth of PTSD therapy,

681
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,840
like different types by now, and you know, one of

682
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,760
the things that it just made me think of is

683
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:26,760
like I can't tell whose footsteps are coming up the stairs.

684
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,719
I can tell when certain people's cars are pulling in,

685
00:41:31,679 --> 00:41:34,840
because if you grew up or if you lived in

686
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,280
a home where it was a matter of safety to

687
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:40,519
know who was coming up the stairs or pulling in

688
00:41:40,559 --> 00:41:44,000
the driveway, you get more sensitive to those things. So

689
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,280
you know what we're talking about with the paranormal, those

690
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,920
are just you know, if being psychic as an example,

691
00:41:53,079 --> 00:41:56,280
that's possibly just a different sense.

692
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 4: So is that something that could you.

693
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 3: Know, maybe develop just like I've developed the ability to

694
00:42:06,679 --> 00:42:07,639
tell people's.

695
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:11,119
Speaker 4: Footsteps apart, do you think it's something else like that? Perhaps?

696
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 2: I think people can become more aware of their psychic

697
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:20,519
abilities as they grow older, just from learning that they

698
00:42:20,559 --> 00:42:24,880
have the ability and that they can trust their abilities.

699
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,360
But I think everybody's got it's an innate thing. I

700
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:35,159
think that everybody can does everybody does? I mean, I

701
00:42:35,199 --> 00:42:39,079
don't think that any one person can ever say that

702
00:42:39,119 --> 00:42:42,960
I've never had a thought and then something happened, or

703
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:44,599
I never saw anything out of the corner of my

704
00:42:44,639 --> 00:42:48,320
eye or whatever, you know, I just don't. I mean,

705
00:42:49,199 --> 00:42:51,079
the doors that were shutting and opening and shutting and

706
00:42:51,079 --> 00:42:54,239
open when I was alone, I was like so scared

707
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:55,960
in the house by myself. We lived out in the

708
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,079
country and it was pitch black, and I was scared.

709
00:42:58,119 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 1: I was like in.

710
00:43:00,079 --> 00:43:03,639
Speaker 2: Adolescence, and I learned later on in life that I

711
00:43:03,639 --> 00:43:07,239
could have been possibly been doing that myself and It's

712
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,360
like that just blows me away. So I literally like

713
00:43:10,679 --> 00:43:12,960
look at things like and try to move it, and

714
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,440
I'm like screaming in my head for it to move, move, move,

715
00:43:16,559 --> 00:43:16,920
you know what.

716
00:43:17,039 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 6: I'm like, I don't have the patience to do it

717
00:43:19,119 --> 00:43:21,000
is long enough. But I think that you can continue

718
00:43:21,039 --> 00:43:22,000
to train yourself.

719
00:43:24,519 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 5: A couple of things occurred to me, Susie when you

720
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,880
asked that question, And the first one was when a

721
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:35,760
person loses their sight, their other senses pick up the slack.

722
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,519
You can smell better, you can hear better, all these

723
00:43:39,559 --> 00:43:42,679
types of things. I was having a conversation a couple

724
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,519
of months ago when we were trying to find people

725
00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:48,480
to interview for our current book, and I had a

726
00:43:48,519 --> 00:43:52,800
conversation with Grant Cameron, and he was talking about how

727
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:57,360
he believes that trauma can shut down shut us down

728
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,840
in a way that we are open to more of

729
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,840
the extreme possibilities and connect in ways that we don't otherwise.

730
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,119
And the way that he talked about it, which makes

731
00:44:06,119 --> 00:44:08,480
perfect sense to me, and I think I had this

732
00:44:08,639 --> 00:44:11,480
thought as well too before we discussed it was that

733
00:44:11,559 --> 00:44:14,480
anything that shuts down the left brain and opens up

734
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:19,159
the right brain to whatever else is out there is useful,

735
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,239
and he had talked about psychedelics or different types of

736
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:26,599
drugs or chemicals. Trauma certainly forces us outside of our

737
00:44:26,639 --> 00:44:29,440
comfort zone, and like you mentioned, you have to find

738
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:33,239
different ways to cope when you have an imminent threat

739
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,760
that might be within your own family or in your

740
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:39,519
own home. So I think that those things definitely when

741
00:44:39,559 --> 00:44:42,760
we talk about losing one of our senses, that perhaps

742
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,719
this psychic ability is just it's another latent type of

743
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:50,440
an ability that we have, but we don't need it

744
00:44:50,519 --> 00:44:54,280
for our direct survival until we do, and once we do.

745
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,199
And that's one of the reasons that we wanted to

746
00:44:56,239 --> 00:45:01,960
start investigating the relationship between trauma in paranormal activity because

747
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:06,679
I've always believed that trauma is a gateway to these

748
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:10,440
extreme possibilities that were not conscious of. I just don't

749
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,760
know how or why, and I wanted to investigate, like

750
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,559
Jackie had come up with the idea several years ago,

751
00:45:16,519 --> 00:45:21,000
that we look at post traumatic growth. Because we're positive people,

752
00:45:21,039 --> 00:45:22,840
we don't want to just get into the shock value

753
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,159
of things. That's what the paranormal is about for the

754
00:45:25,159 --> 00:45:27,840
most part. But what we're trying to do is let's

755
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,639
talk about the shock value. But let's flip it around

756
00:45:31,079 --> 00:45:33,000
and see how people have learned to grow and to

757
00:45:33,039 --> 00:45:36,559
develop and to thrive, and how they've done so by

758
00:45:36,599 --> 00:45:39,360
going through some of these extreme circumstances.

759
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:41,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

760
00:45:42,159 --> 00:45:46,039
Speaker 3: So for me personally, I had struggled to find treatments

761
00:45:46,079 --> 00:45:48,880
that worked for me. I can't tolerate a lot of medications.

762
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,079
It was a little over a year ago that.

763
00:45:53,159 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 4: I finally did find something that worked for me.

764
00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 3: And shortly after that was when and I started to

765
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:07,039
become more open to paranormal experiences. I feel like I

766
00:46:07,119 --> 00:46:12,280
had just like you can kind of shut out people emotionally,

767
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,280
I feel like I had kind of shut off to

768
00:46:16,519 --> 00:46:21,719
the paranormal as well. But the treatment that finally worked

769
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:26,559
for me was ketamine infusions also, which it was.

770
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:28,519
Speaker 4: It was life changing, Bill. It was like.

771
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:35,039
Speaker 3: Turning down the difficulty level on a video game imediately.

772
00:46:35,639 --> 00:46:40,039
Like life just got easier, right, and I could focus

773
00:46:40,039 --> 00:46:42,280
on it. I could be a little bit more objective

774
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,480
about my own experiences and things like that.

775
00:46:45,519 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 4: But I always wondered, because you know, ketamine can.

776
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 3: Be a psychedelic as well. I never got any kind

777
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,760
of like visual hallucinations or anything like that. When I

778
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,400
was doing the treatments, but I always wondered like the

779
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,320
kenemine played a part in opening myself up to that.

780
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 5: Maybe, so yeah, maybe it did. Maybe it maybe it'd

781
00:47:08,039 --> 00:47:11,960
shut down that part of you that was on overdrive.

782
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,599
You know. You talked about having been through those circumstances

783
00:47:17,039 --> 00:47:19,800
from nineteen years ago where you had to, you know,

784
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,000
listen to the car coming up the driveway to determine

785
00:47:23,039 --> 00:47:25,800
who it was and how you needed to accommodate for

786
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,159
the fact that somebody was going to come into the

787
00:47:28,159 --> 00:47:30,840
house that could be a threat, you know. And then

788
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:35,800
maybe because you had been in that mindset for as

789
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,480
long as you had, probably weren't even conscious of it,

790
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,920
those defenses were raised up to a certain degree, and

791
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,280
then perhaps this medication allowed those to come down in

792
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:46,960
a way you could experience things differently.

793
00:47:47,639 --> 00:47:50,599
Speaker 3: I was definitely in fight or flight for an extended

794
00:47:50,639 --> 00:47:53,920
period of time. Actually, I had a vagus nerve damage

795
00:47:54,559 --> 00:47:58,119
because of it and started having health problems.

796
00:47:58,559 --> 00:47:59,199
Speaker 4: Yeah.

797
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 3: I actually two weeks ago got an MRI and it's

798
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:08,119
actually getting better instead of worse, So that's good news absolutely.

799
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 6: Yeah.

800
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:15,679
Speaker 3: And I've had all of these really cool experiences over

801
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:24,800
the summer since so like, what, Well, so I'll tell

802
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,960
you what kind of started it is. I you know,

803
00:48:29,039 --> 00:48:36,639
I alluded to it earlier. I had someone I was

804
00:48:36,639 --> 00:48:38,760
friends with on Facebook. I'm not even sure how we

805
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,039
became friends, but that was the only way we knew

806
00:48:41,039 --> 00:48:45,199
each other. He had commented on one of my posts, Oh,

807
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:47,960
you should go to this location. I want to see

808
00:48:48,519 --> 00:48:50,360
you know what you think about it? Tell me what

809
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:52,920
kind of vibes you pick up on there. And it

810
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:57,239
was a place called It's the Great Swamp Massacre Monument,

811
00:48:58,639 --> 00:49:02,880
and it was it's a monument to the Narraganset tribe

812
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,719
who was massacred by the Puritans during King Philip's War.

813
00:49:06,039 --> 00:49:09,639
Speaker 4: Long story short, So I go out.

814
00:49:10,039 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 3: It's only you know, I think it's like an hour

815
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:15,039
and twenty minutes for me, So it was not that far.

816
00:49:15,119 --> 00:49:17,320
So I went out a couple I think the next

817
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:21,800
weekend after he had suggested it, and I get there.

818
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:23,639
You have to walk about half a mile through a

819
00:49:23,679 --> 00:49:24,480
swamp to.

820
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 4: Get to it.

821
00:49:26,199 --> 00:49:30,079
Speaker 3: And the first thing was there was an absolute swarm

822
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:34,360
of deer flies. When I tell you, I was covered

823
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,480
in deer fly bites. I was covered in deer fly

824
00:49:37,599 --> 00:49:40,840
bites like my clothes got tight because of how much

825
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:44,159
I was swollen like it. It was an absolute swarm.

826
00:49:44,199 --> 00:49:46,920
I wasn't even sure. I almost turned around at one point.

827
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:48,400
I'm like, no, I drive all the way out here,

828
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,119
I'm gonna go. So I finally get to it, and

829
00:49:51,159 --> 00:49:54,800
it's an obelisk in the middle of the woods, basically

830
00:49:55,119 --> 00:49:58,639
just a small clearing. There's an obelisk and then four cornerstones,

831
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,679
and there is a cornerstone for each colony that was involved.

832
00:50:02,679 --> 00:50:08,000
So there's Plymouth, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island. And I

833
00:50:08,119 --> 00:50:12,800
kind of get there and I'm taking some pictures and videos.

834
00:50:13,119 --> 00:50:15,920
The first thing that happened is my digital camera the

835
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:19,880
battery drained, so I said, okay, I haven't used this

836
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:21,519
in a while. Let me just pop a new battery.

837
00:50:21,559 --> 00:50:24,280
And I'm sure it's nothing. And so I'm kind of,

838
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,079
you know, going around taking pictures, taking videos, and I

839
00:50:27,199 --> 00:50:31,400
noticed that if I was near the Rhode Island stone,

840
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:36,599
the deer flies would leave me alone. And it was

841
00:50:36,679 --> 00:50:39,199
significant enough for that to stick in my head and

842
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:41,599
then mention it to the person that told me I

843
00:50:41,599 --> 00:50:44,559
should go there later, And it turns out that's where

844
00:50:44,599 --> 00:50:50,320
his father's ashes are was that that stone. So then,

845
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,880
so I'm kind of new at talking about this. I'm

846
00:50:54,960 --> 00:51:00,840
used to other people telling me their experiences therewith, but

847
00:51:01,559 --> 00:51:05,760
I had put my hand on a tree and I had.

848
00:51:06,639 --> 00:51:08,760
The best way I can describe it is like a download,

849
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,559
like a I just kind of knew and kind of

850
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,280
like got a picture in my brain that where the

851
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:20,159
monument was was not where the massacre happened. And I

852
00:51:20,199 --> 00:51:25,480
could tell directionally from where I was, like what direction

853
00:51:25,599 --> 00:51:29,000
and where the location of the actual monument the actual

854
00:51:29,039 --> 00:51:30,719
massacre had happened.

855
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 4: And that was what I was saying earlier.

856
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:36,679
Speaker 3: I was able to verify that was accurate later on

857
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:42,920
after I left. Another thing I saw was a man

858
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:47,280
who was like standing on the edge of a frozen

859
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,159
lake and he was talking to people and they were

860
00:51:50,199 --> 00:51:52,000
trying to figure out how they were going to take

861
00:51:52,039 --> 00:51:56,519
care of all the dead. I saw two little kids

862
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:00,519
huddled together, freezing to death in the snow. Because this

863
00:52:00,559 --> 00:52:06,280
had happened in December, so you know, aside from all

864
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,719
the people that died in the actual attack, there's people

865
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:14,719
that died afterwards from kind of like the aftermath of it.

866
00:52:16,119 --> 00:52:21,559
So I that was like a pretty intense thing and again,

867
00:52:21,599 --> 00:52:26,320
at the time, I'm still half in denial about like,

868
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:29,920
you know, this is an emotional place. Is my brain

869
00:52:30,079 --> 00:52:34,760
just making this up? So when I left there, I

870
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:36,480
was completely wiped out.

871
00:52:37,039 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 4: Just went home. I kind of looked through my videos

872
00:52:40,519 --> 00:52:43,519
real quick and went to bed.

873
00:52:45,599 --> 00:52:48,519
Speaker 3: And the next day I got up. I was going

874
00:52:48,599 --> 00:52:53,440
to put together YouTube video to talk about my experiences there,

875
00:52:53,679 --> 00:52:58,840
and all of the videos on my digital camera were

876
00:52:59,039 --> 00:52:59,920
just black screens.

877
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,159
Speaker 4: So I said, all right, I guess that.

878
00:53:04,519 --> 00:53:07,519
Speaker 3: You know that camera's battery died yesterday, so I guess

879
00:53:07,559 --> 00:53:10,519
it's garbage now. Right then I got I had also

880
00:53:10,559 --> 00:53:12,719
taken pictures and videos on my cell phone, so I

881
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:14,039
got my cell phone out, like.

882
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 4: At least I have those those are all black also.

883
00:53:19,559 --> 00:53:23,119
So the other part of this is.

884
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 3: You know, when I had kind of seen gotten those

885
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:31,920
we'll call it visions, I had wanted.

886
00:53:31,639 --> 00:53:33,039
Speaker 4: To do a little bit more research.

887
00:53:34,679 --> 00:53:40,159
Speaker 3: It turns out the person who instigated the attack was

888
00:53:40,199 --> 00:53:46,920
my ninth grade uncle, and the person who had told

889
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:49,960
me I should go there is you know, a descendant

890
00:53:50,599 --> 00:53:53,480
of people that were massacred there as well, and he

891
00:53:53,519 --> 00:53:58,239
did he did not know that, and I kind of said, like,

892
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,119
why did you tell me? To go there, and he

893
00:54:01,159 --> 00:54:03,840
said it was my higher power told me to tell you.

894
00:54:05,559 --> 00:54:08,519
Speaker 5: How about that? Boy? Does that resonate with us or not?

895
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:09,280
Speaker 1: Yeah?

896
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:11,079
Speaker 5: Tell her please.

897
00:54:12,559 --> 00:54:16,199
Speaker 2: Well, So when my mom died, we had her service,

898
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:19,320
and then we had a luncheon afterwards. And my mom's

899
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:22,840
cousin the youngest cousin, so she's closer to my age.

900
00:54:23,679 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 6: Said.

901
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 2: She asked me if I believed in the Cornstock curse,

902
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,360
and I said, well, I think there's probably something to it.

903
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:32,880
And she said, well, you know, I'm really into genealogy,

904
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:35,960
and I said yeah, and she said so. Benjamin Weddell

905
00:54:36,639 --> 00:54:43,360
was her sixth great uncle, and he was part of

906
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:48,360
the infantry that took out Cornstock. So not uncle grandfather,

907
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:52,280
I'm sorry. So he would be my seventh great great

908
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:58,199
great great great great grandfather, which when we first went

909
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:01,480
to point Plause that we met in Cornwall Robinson, who

910
00:55:01,599 --> 00:55:06,239
was the seventh fire from Chief Cornstock. So here's her

911
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:08,719
on one side and me on the other. And I'm

912
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:10,679
not proud of it by any means. I'll tell you

913
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:13,039
that literally the last from which point flaws And I

914
00:55:13,079 --> 00:55:16,719
was looking for what ELL's name anywhere I could find

915
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:21,960
it to make sure that he didn't do any damage himself.

916
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:25,079
He was just part of the infantry. He wasn't recognized

917
00:55:25,119 --> 00:55:27,119
for any of it. I'm sure he did his own damage.

918
00:55:27,159 --> 00:55:31,760
But yeah, so I totally get that, and you almost

919
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:37,199
feel I almost feel responsible for the death of Cornstock

920
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:39,760
because it's in my lineage.

921
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:40,719
Speaker 4: Well.

922
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:45,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. The other similarity there is this my ninth grade uncle.

923
00:55:46,679 --> 00:55:50,880
That was not the only thing he was involved in

924
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:52,159
in the Bridgewater Triangle.

925
00:55:53,119 --> 00:55:54,519
Speaker 4: There is a theory.

926
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:58,840
Speaker 3: That that area of high strangeness is called by something

927
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:04,159
called the Wampum built and during King Philip's War, after

928
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:07,880
King Philip had been killed, a man named Chief Anawon

929
00:56:08,039 --> 00:56:12,360
had taken over they a man named Benjamin Church finally

930
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:15,960
tracked down Anawon told him, if you surrender peacefully go

931
00:56:16,079 --> 00:56:18,760
to Plymouth with me, we won't kill you.

932
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:19,559
Speaker 4: You'll be spared.

933
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:25,199
Speaker 3: And Anawon said, yeah, no problem, And he also handed

934
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:28,360
over his wampum belt, which was, you know, a secret

935
00:56:28,679 --> 00:56:35,440
piece to the the Wampanog tribe. When he got to Plymouth,

936
00:56:37,079 --> 00:56:40,880
Benjamin Church had to business somewhere else. He had to

937
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,760
leave for a few days. While he was gone, they

938
00:56:44,519 --> 00:56:47,719
whenever you read it, it says the officials in Plymouth

939
00:56:48,679 --> 00:56:51,639
basically said yeah, we know this guy said we weren't

940
00:56:51,639 --> 00:56:54,039
going to kill you, but we decided we are anyway.

941
00:56:54,559 --> 00:56:57,639
And they actually they beheaded him. They put his head

942
00:56:57,639 --> 00:57:04,000
on a pike. Story kind of grabbed my attention. I

943
00:57:04,039 --> 00:57:07,079
was looking at the Bridgewater Triangle stuff. There's a place

944
00:57:07,079 --> 00:57:09,800
called Anawon's Rock that's known to be haunted, and I

945
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:14,119
kept saying, like, why does it just say the officials like,

946
00:57:14,199 --> 00:57:16,079
I want to know the name of the monster that

947
00:57:16,199 --> 00:57:21,679
did this. Ended up going to Boston Library going through

948
00:57:21,719 --> 00:57:23,519
all of these old documents.

949
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 4: It was my ninth grade uncle that did it.

950
00:57:27,079 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 5: Wow.

951
00:57:29,039 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 3: And I've also met the descendants of people he killed

952
00:57:34,519 --> 00:57:36,880
as well. I happened to meet one in a store

953
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:40,679
and we happened to just strike up this conversation that

954
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:41,840
led to us figuring that.

955
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:43,119
Speaker 4: Out as well.

956
00:57:43,119 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 2: Wow.

957
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:48,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, and maybe I watched Scooby Doo too much as

958
00:57:48,199 --> 00:57:53,000
a kid, but when these coincidents happened, I feel like

959
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:55,960
I'm supposed to do something.

960
00:57:56,840 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 4: It's not always clear what that is, but.

961
00:58:00,199 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like I'm getting this information for a reason.

962
00:58:04,559 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 4: Right.

963
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 5: So when we met Carolyn Harris, and we also met

964
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:12,880
Mark Griffith and he was in the restaurant with Carolyn

965
00:58:13,079 --> 00:58:15,239
and let me back up for just a second. So

966
00:58:15,719 --> 00:58:18,079
Jackie was talking about how if it's not my idea,

967
00:58:18,119 --> 00:58:21,119
I don't want to do it. And after twenty years together,

968
00:58:21,159 --> 00:58:23,360
I've gotten a little bit better at that. But in

969
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:27,159
twenty sixteen, when we arrived in Point Pleasant, it was

970
00:58:27,199 --> 00:58:30,360
after five o'clock, and eight years ago Point Pleasant was

971
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:32,840
a lot quieter than it is now. There's a lot

972
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:36,079
more going on now as the legend has just really

973
00:58:36,119 --> 00:58:40,920
taken off. But we were looking at the whole area

974
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:43,840
and Jackie noticed this little old lady in a restaurant

975
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:46,639
and she said to me, I think she wants to

976
00:58:46,679 --> 00:58:49,119
talk to us. And I just kind of poop pooed

977
00:58:49,119 --> 00:58:51,599
the whole idea, let's go see what else is going

978
00:58:51,679 --> 00:58:53,519
on down the street or whatever, and she said, no,

979
00:58:54,639 --> 00:58:57,639
she wants to talk to us. So it was almost

980
00:58:57,639 --> 00:58:59,000
like she had to grab my arm to get me

981
00:58:59,039 --> 00:59:01,639
to go in the restaurant. But we met Mark Griffith,

982
00:59:02,119 --> 00:59:04,559
and Mark is the first person we interviewed for bridging

983
00:59:04,599 --> 00:59:09,599
the tragedy. And the second or third time we went

984
00:59:09,639 --> 00:59:14,039
back to the restaurant, Lynn was there. Lynn Cornwell Robinson

985
00:59:14,199 --> 00:59:16,480
was there In fact, when we pulled up to the restaurant,

986
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:19,239
we saw the license plate and it said Cornstock on it,

987
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:21,519
and I'm like, oh boy, you know something about Chief

988
00:59:21,519 --> 00:59:24,119
Cornstalk's going on. So we went in there, and this

989
00:59:24,199 --> 00:59:27,639
lady who was waiting tables was Mark's half sister, and

990
00:59:27,719 --> 00:59:31,360
she called Carolyn mom, even though Carolyn wasn't her mom.

991
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:35,000
She just kind of ascribed that to Carolyn because Carolyn

992
00:59:35,039 --> 00:59:38,960
was such a sweet lady. But Lynn was very nice

993
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:40,920
to us the very first time that we were there,

994
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,239
and she was a little cooler the next time we went,

995
00:59:44,599 --> 00:59:46,920
and then she just kind of started ghosting us. It

996
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:48,880
didn't seem to really want to have anything to do

997
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,599
with us until she saw that we were in town

998
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:54,679
interviewing Mark and we put that up on Facebook. So

999
00:59:54,719 --> 00:59:57,320
she sent me a message on Messenger. She said, what

1000
00:59:57,360 --> 00:59:59,519
are y' all doing? And I said, we're working on

1001
00:59:59,519 --> 01:00:01,559
a book right now. We're interviewing people for that. Mark

1002
01:00:01,679 --> 01:00:04,039
is one of them. Would you be interested? And she

1003
01:00:04,159 --> 01:00:08,079
totally ghosted me. And I wonder if now that Jackie

1004
01:00:08,119 --> 01:00:12,000
has found out about her ancestry, that perhaps at some

1005
01:00:12,199 --> 01:00:15,360
level when sensed that too, that there was something about

1006
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:18,960
us that was threatening to her. I don't know. Maybe

1007
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:21,920
I'm grasping its straws, but it seems like that that

1008
01:00:22,039 --> 01:00:22,960
is a possibility.

1009
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:26,320
Speaker 4: So I think I think you should have listened to

1010
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:27,360
Jackie the first time.

1011
01:00:29,599 --> 01:00:36,119
Speaker 5: Thank you Now, I'm not good, but I'm better. Yeah.

1012
01:00:36,159 --> 01:00:38,599
Speaker 4: Moral of the story, listen to Jackie, will you Bill?

1013
01:00:39,079 --> 01:00:42,559
Speaker 5: Yep? I do now more probably wouldn't you say, honey

1014
01:00:42,559 --> 01:00:43,880
than I ever have in the past, But.

1015
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:48,119
Speaker 6: Maybe yes, yes, yes, I'll say yes.

1016
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1017
01:00:51,599 --> 01:00:52,159
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1018
01:00:52,519 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 3: So the book that you're working on now gets more

1019
01:00:55,519 --> 01:00:58,960
into the link between trauma and the paranormal.

1020
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:02,719
Speaker 4: Any idea one that's going to be coming out.

1021
01:01:03,559 --> 01:01:06,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, we're really excited about it. The goal is to

1022
01:01:06,599 --> 01:01:10,000
debut it at the next Mothman Festival. We talked to

1023
01:01:10,079 --> 01:01:12,440
Jeff the last day we were in Point Pleasant after

1024
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:15,039
the festival this year, and we were telling him how

1025
01:01:15,079 --> 01:01:17,880
things were coming along, and he was asking us about it,

1026
01:01:18,199 --> 01:01:19,840
and he said, why don't you guys come here and

1027
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:22,920
debut it. You can talk about that at the next festival.

1028
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:27,840
So that kind of it just it kind of crystallizes

1029
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:30,400
where we were wanting to go with as anyway, now

1030
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:32,519
we have a date that's kind of set in stone,

1031
01:01:32,519 --> 01:01:35,239
which means the book has to be done by August

1032
01:01:35,719 --> 01:01:39,280
to be ready for the festival in September. So we've

1033
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:42,199
done I think we've done seven interviews so far. We'll

1034
01:01:42,199 --> 01:01:46,000
probably do at least that many more. And life has

1035
01:01:46,039 --> 01:01:49,320
been so crazy this year. Jackie mentioned she lost her

1036
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:53,840
mom at the end of April May the end of May,

1037
01:01:54,119 --> 01:01:57,000
and my dad passed away last month, so we've had

1038
01:01:57,039 --> 01:02:01,119
both of those family tragedies to deal with here this year,

1039
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:05,639
and she's retired from Corporate America, but I'm not so

1040
01:02:05,719 --> 01:02:08,480
I'm still I'm working at day job in addition to

1041
01:02:08,519 --> 01:02:12,920
writing this. So at this point, I do think it's doable.

1042
01:02:13,239 --> 01:02:16,079
But we're going to have to really ramp up getting

1043
01:02:16,119 --> 01:02:18,599
out there and interviewing more people as quickly as we can.

1044
01:02:18,679 --> 01:02:21,320
And we've got enough people to do the study we

1045
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:23,760
need around twelve, and I think we have more than

1046
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:27,920
that already. But yeah, Mothman Festival next year, we should

1047
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:31,000
be able to debut it and present it at the festival.

1048
01:02:31,679 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 4: Excellent. I'm looking forward to that for sure.

1049
01:02:35,639 --> 01:02:36,079
Speaker 6: I am too.

1050
01:02:36,079 --> 01:02:38,559
Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to getting the other interviews done and

1051
01:02:38,639 --> 01:02:41,679
getting some of them transcribed completely.

1052
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:45,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, and Susie, I'm just real quick about that. So far,

1053
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:48,519
we have a mix of people who from our everyday

1054
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:51,239
walk that we've just run into, that we've gotten to

1055
01:02:51,239 --> 01:02:54,280
know over the years. We met a lady by the

1056
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:56,920
name of Jesse who we interviewed. She was at a

1057
01:02:56,960 --> 01:02:59,920
presentation we did in Woodstock, Illinois, which is suburban Chicago,

1058
01:03:00,639 --> 01:03:04,039
last summer, and we interviewed her. She was one of

1059
01:03:04,039 --> 01:03:07,119
our first interviewees and she has really taken off. She's

1060
01:03:07,119 --> 01:03:10,559
doing different conferences every weekend now in different areas, you know,

1061
01:03:10,559 --> 01:03:14,119
within our region. But then we interviewed Reverend Michael Carter

1062
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:20,199
from the History Channel. Wonderful, wonderful conversation. He was fantastic,

1063
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:24,000
What a great guy we interviewed him. Dean Bertram is

1064
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:26,880
another one. I'm in the process right now and close

1065
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:31,199
to halfway done transcribing uninterview we did with Monroe Nevills.

1066
01:03:31,559 --> 01:03:33,280
And Monroe was a guy who was part of the

1067
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:36,440
Rendelsom Forest Incident nineteen eighty in England.

1068
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:38,239
Speaker 4: I knew I recognized the name.

1069
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the most highly documented military UFO experience

1070
01:03:43,679 --> 01:03:47,599
in history. And I would love to get Jim Peniston also,

1071
01:03:47,719 --> 01:03:49,679
we know Jim, he's kind of a friend of ours.

1072
01:03:49,719 --> 01:03:52,039
But he's kind of keeping this whole thing at arms

1073
01:03:52,079 --> 01:03:54,920
length right now because probably some of the trauma he's

1074
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:58,599
gone through just by telling his story. So we've got

1075
01:03:58,599 --> 01:04:02,280
some really cool people lined up to interview here. Melanie

1076
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:05,480
Kirchdorffer is one who was an experiencer from the sixties.

1077
01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:07,920
She's in Massachusetts. So I think I asked you a

1078
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:10,400
couple of months ago how close you were to where

1079
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:13,159
she was, because we hoped to be out there maybe

1080
01:04:13,199 --> 01:04:15,320
as soon as next month to interview her.

1081
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:17,599
Speaker 6: So we're not going there in December.

1082
01:04:18,079 --> 01:04:19,840
Speaker 5: It's exciting. Next month is November.

1083
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:21,880
Speaker 6: We're not maybe November. We'll see.

1084
01:04:22,239 --> 01:04:25,119
Speaker 3: We've got like two days next week that are nice,

1085
01:04:25,119 --> 01:04:27,960
and then after that, like just wait till spring.

1086
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:32,079
Speaker 2: Because I want to If we're going to Massachusetts, I'm

1087
01:04:32,119 --> 01:04:34,559
going to Salem. You're not going to stop me from

1088
01:04:34,559 --> 01:04:36,400
going to Salem, and I want to spend a couple

1089
01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:37,480
of days there, you know.

1090
01:04:37,519 --> 01:04:42,960
Speaker 3: So I can tell you like the cool less known

1091
01:04:43,559 --> 01:04:45,519
places to visit in the area too.

1092
01:04:45,559 --> 01:04:47,519
Speaker 6: I would love that. I would love that.

1093
01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:49,039
Speaker 5: Well, you can be our tour guide.

1094
01:04:49,079 --> 01:04:52,800
Speaker 3: You're pretty close to there, yep, yeah, bring bring some

1095
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:55,199
hiking boots because all the cool places I know are

1096
01:04:55,199 --> 01:04:55,920
in the woods.

1097
01:04:56,239 --> 01:05:03,679
Speaker 5: Yeah, I can still walk.

1098
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:07,440
Speaker 4: All right, So where can do you? Guys? You guys

1099
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:08,159
have a website.

1100
01:05:08,159 --> 01:05:11,679
Speaker 3: Where can people keep up with you, see what you're doing,

1101
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:12,719
get in touch with you.

1102
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:19,920
Speaker 2: Our website is PRP connect dot org. The website, I

1103
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:22,519
have to be honest, is not in the best condition,

1104
01:05:22,639 --> 01:05:25,239
and I keep apologizing for it because I keep thinking

1105
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:26,719
I'm going to be able to get in there and

1106
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:31,320
fix some of the problems, but too much has been

1107
01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:33,599
going on, and like that's the least I mean, just

1108
01:05:33,599 --> 01:05:36,039
just to put our events up there, you know that

1109
01:05:37,039 --> 01:05:39,800
our upcoming events and then the podcast when we get

1110
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:42,360
the links to them, we put those up.

1111
01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:44,760
Speaker 6: But that's about it for now.

1112
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:48,400
Speaker 2: So yeah, or else, you can contact us through email

1113
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:51,639
at PRP connect at outlook dot com.

1114
01:05:52,639 --> 01:05:55,719
Speaker 5: And we're also both very active on Facebook. It's easy

1115
01:05:55,719 --> 01:05:56,639
to find us.

1116
01:05:58,199 --> 01:05:59,039
Speaker 4: That's where I bother.

1117
01:05:59,159 --> 01:06:02,519
Speaker 6: You never a bother.

1118
01:06:04,039 --> 01:06:07,559
Speaker 3: All right, Well, thank you for talking to me. You

1119
01:06:07,679 --> 01:06:10,719
got a lot of personal information out of me, so

1120
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:12,960
congratulations on accomplishing that.

1121
01:06:14,199 --> 01:06:15,400
Speaker 5: All I had to do was ask.

1122
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:21,800
Speaker 3: All right, thanks everyone for watching, and I will put

1123
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:25,840
links to Jackie and Bill's information in the description if

1124
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:29,400
anyone needs to reach out to them and again thanks

1125
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:31,000
everyone for watching and have a good night.

1126
01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 5: Thanks Susie, thank you.