WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.919 Was linktern a little bit in the title. For whatever reason, 2 00:00:04.160 --> 00:00:06.839 YouTube doesn't like it when you try to add people 3 00:00:06.839 --> 00:00:09.599 in live stream titles, so I'll add it after the 4 00:00:09.640 --> 00:00:13.320 show's complete. We did have I think a great response 5 00:00:13.400 --> 00:00:17.600 twenty two thousand for our initial four hour talk, largely 6 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:21.160 from Kai, and of course we had a lot of 7 00:00:21.160 --> 00:00:23.039 good input from David as well, and I think I 8 00:00:23.079 --> 00:00:27.160 added some stuff too. We're going to continue with still 9 00:00:27.199 --> 00:00:29.839 part one. We don't think we're going to completely finish 10 00:00:29.879 --> 00:00:32.759 part one tonight, so remember this will be an ongoing series. 11 00:00:32.840 --> 00:00:35.520 I'll try to eventually put it into a playlist. It'll 12 00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:37.759 be its own kind of again, sort of college course 13 00:00:37.799 --> 00:00:41.200 on the topic. Now, we haven't really gotten into the 14 00:00:41.240 --> 00:00:44.560 specifics of everything yet. We really only touched on some 15 00:00:44.600 --> 00:00:48.439 of the introductory issues with the Syrian Church of the 16 00:00:48.479 --> 00:00:52.000 East and the Storian positions last time. So please be 17 00:00:52.159 --> 00:00:56.240 patient and don't expect that every question must immediately be 18 00:00:56.320 --> 00:00:59.000 dealt with on tonight's stream or the next stream or whatever. 19 00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:02.439 I guarante to you every question that you have because 20 00:01:02.479 --> 00:01:07.680 of the exhaustive thoroughness of this lecture series. Whatever your 21 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:10.560 questions are, they will eventually come up. So please be patient. 22 00:01:10.599 --> 00:01:15.920 Also to the Orientals so called mods. If they spam 23 00:01:16.040 --> 00:01:18.560 the chat like they did last time, in act ridiculous 24 00:01:18.599 --> 00:01:21.159 as they are wonted to do, please just immediately boot them. 25 00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:26.359 We are looking for honest, extensive discussions on these topics. 26 00:01:26.359 --> 00:01:28.959 We're not trying to play the gotcha game where you 27 00:01:28.959 --> 00:01:31.640 clip something that's thirty seconds. That's what all the low 28 00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:34.640 tier Muslims, the low tier Roman Catholics, the load tier 29 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:38.239 Orientals do is look for low tier thirty second clips. 30 00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:42.439 That's not what we do. We do the extensive, thorough 31 00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:45.280 college course model here. And so Kai is going to 32 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:49.120 pick back up where we left off last time. And Kai, 33 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:51.760 if there's anything else you want to say before you 34 00:01:51.840 --> 00:01:54.920 kick us off, or David as well, feel free to interject. 35 00:01:56.079 --> 00:01:56.280 Yeah. 36 00:01:56.319 --> 00:01:57.799 I just want to say thanks a lot, Jay. I'm 37 00:01:57.799 --> 00:02:01.959 really looking forward to continuing this series. And just to reiterate, 38 00:02:02.200 --> 00:02:06.120 this is the second installment of part one. We're probably 39 00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:09.719 going to be doing three streams, maybe four streams on 40 00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:12.199 part one, depends on how long it takes us to 41 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:15.000 go through all of the slides. One thing that I 42 00:02:15.039 --> 00:02:17.520 would say is I think I'm going to expand the 43 00:02:17.560 --> 00:02:21.719 series for what I had planned to do. Last time 44 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:25.039 we discussed some stuff on ecumenism. I did a community 45 00:02:25.039 --> 00:02:27.919 post asking for a vote if you guys would like 46 00:02:27.960 --> 00:02:31.599 to see something of that, and I think there is 47 00:02:31.879 --> 00:02:34.960 definitely some interest there. So I think at some point, 48 00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:37.280 I don't know where in the series I want to 49 00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:40.639 put it in, but we'll have a topic dedicated specifically 50 00:02:40.759 --> 00:02:44.800 to ecumenism and to discuss this whole notion that is 51 00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:47.960 starting to kind of make some grounds of so called 52 00:02:48.039 --> 00:02:54.080 Apostolic Christianity, as if to imply that the Oriental Churches, 53 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:58.919 the Assyrian Church of the East, the Roman Catholics, as 54 00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:04.199 if these are Appostolic churches. So we vehemently deny any 55 00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:08.280 Apostolicity to them. It's not just about tracing a particular 56 00:03:08.319 --> 00:03:11.919 lineage to the Apostles that makes you apostolic. And I 57 00:03:11.960 --> 00:03:16.680 think this is a very dangerous push by certain people 58 00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:19.759 in the online sphere that are trying to make it 59 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:22.240 as if all of these churches have some kind of 60 00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:26.039 validity to them. It's very important to emphasize as Orthodox 61 00:03:26.120 --> 00:03:29.439 that the Orthodox Church, or if you want to call 62 00:03:29.479 --> 00:03:31.520 it the Eastern Orthodox Church, we just refer to it 63 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:35.000 as the Orthodox Church really is the only church that 64 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:37.439 you can belong to to say that you are in 65 00:03:37.479 --> 00:03:41.319 the body of Christ, that it is really the only 66 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:45.000 church where you will find valid sacraments, and outside of 67 00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:49.199 that you cannot be guaranteed salvation. So that's just one 68 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:51.520 point there that I wanted to bring up, and I 69 00:03:51.560 --> 00:03:55.479 may have Father Michael join us for that. He's a 70 00:03:55.560 --> 00:03:59.400 very big proponent to speak against ecumenism. He's very knowledgeable 71 00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:02.520 in the top topic. So I look forward in doing 72 00:04:02.599 --> 00:04:03.400 that stream. 73 00:04:03.719 --> 00:04:06.479 Apart from that, Kai, they're saying that your voice is 74 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:08.800 a little too low. Could you jack back up what 75 00:04:08.919 --> 00:04:09.680 you turned down? 76 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:11.759 So I just increase my gain. 77 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:14.560 That's fine right there, That should be good right there, okay, perfect. 78 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:19.399 Also the yeah, the point there, I think is that 79 00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:22.319 we see a lot of people talking about this idea 80 00:04:22.439 --> 00:04:26.560 of just generic so called apostolic Christianity, as if episodic 81 00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:33.160 succession is some sort of mechanistic transmission that doesn't necessarily 82 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:35.839 correlate to the faith that one holds. One of the 83 00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:39.319 big differences there is that Orthodox theology believes that not 84 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:42.879 only is a succession necessary for the church, but also 85 00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:47.120 the Orthodox faith is necessary, and so both things are needed, 86 00:04:47.160 --> 00:04:48.759 and there's no such thing as a kind of a 87 00:04:48.839 --> 00:04:54.040 Roman Catholic mechanistic model where everybody has the Orthodox faith 88 00:04:54.759 --> 00:04:58.800 just by virtue of being ordained in some line of people. No, 89 00:04:58.920 --> 00:05:02.360 you can have succession and depart from the faith, and 90 00:05:02.439 --> 00:05:04.480 so then you are no longer in the succession because 91 00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:07.879 you're not teaching the faith of the apostles. It's that simple. 92 00:05:08.040 --> 00:05:10.839 And also I would add that on that topic of 93 00:05:10.839 --> 00:05:16.360 a humanism, Tim Honeycutt has posted a audio version of 94 00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:21.959 a publication from the Athos Monastery of Grigoriu and it 95 00:05:22.279 --> 00:05:26.240 has a statement which is the orthodox, fully orthodox statement 96 00:05:26.279 --> 00:05:29.600 on what Christology is. I'll put that in the links 97 00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:31.680 there as well if you want another sort of just 98 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:37.720 a backup topic discussion from you know, prominent I guess 99 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:41.600 monastics on Athos making all the points you hear us 100 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:46.120 make today. 101 00:05:46.279 --> 00:05:50.720 Yeah, data, was there anything you wanted to chime in on? 102 00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:56.040 Nothing really, I guess specific. It's kind of just so 103 00:05:56.120 --> 00:06:00.959 far as presentation is pretty much at all those long introduction, 104 00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:03.519 it is I think a necessary introduction to kind of 105 00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:08.519 get Georgsodox point of view across in a very clear way. 106 00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:10.360 Of course, there's still going to be people that are 107 00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:11.240 not going to get it. 108 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:17.480 But it's important to point out where the developments and 109 00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:19.680 I've speaken about not in terms of developments of douction, 110 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:22.680 but where the developments of the understanding of certain terms 111 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:26.600 and certain ideas, the chronology of it, and also. 112 00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:29.160 The conceptual mindset of it. 113 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:32.360 And in terms of the talk that Jay was talking 114 00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:34.639 about from Timothy Undcuts channel. 115 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:38.079 Yeah, definitely that work is. 116 00:06:39.839 --> 00:06:41.639 I will say, very important, and you're seeing a lot 117 00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:45.439 of different works coming out in terms of how to 118 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:49.040 understand an offset issue. And I took to listen to it, 119 00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:51.560 and as Jay said, I mean, it's pretty much a 120 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:53.560 lot of it is pretty much what I have been 121 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:57.519 talking about, you know, since twenty twenty on this issue. 122 00:06:57.560 --> 00:07:00.839 So it goes through I mean, it's not just kind 123 00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:03.959 of me kind of coming with these things up. It's 124 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:08.600 what exists in the literature. And the problem is this 125 00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:11.959 literature has been you know, kept away, and it was 126 00:07:12.040 --> 00:07:14.560 kind of hidden, the kind of obscure to find for 127 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:15.360 quite some time. 128 00:07:15.399 --> 00:07:17.240 But it's coming out. 129 00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:19.759 It's coming out, and people are starting to talk about these, 130 00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:24.319 you know, very important issues. I think once again, ever 131 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:26.839 since you know, what we saw in the eighties and 132 00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:32.279 nineties with relation to the supposed union conversations, and in 133 00:07:32.360 --> 00:07:35.959 terms of you know, the ecumenism stuff. Again, the idea 134 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:40.959 that there are these multiple genuine Christian churches and they 135 00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:43.839 somehow have this share in the Holy Spirit, and they 136 00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:49.600 all partake in this generic universal like Platonic idea or 137 00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:54.040 form of generic Christianity. It's it's just completely unacceptable, right, 138 00:07:54.079 --> 00:07:59.560 It's completely it's not part of the experiential theology that 139 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:02.800 you see that is preserved within the your stock church. Right, 140 00:08:02.800 --> 00:08:05.519 So at start succession, the point is it is to 141 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:09.040 preserve the meaning of what has been handed down to 142 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:10.680 the apostles from Christ themselves. 143 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:11.480 Right. 144 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:18.319 There aren't multiple different perennial meanings, right there, There's one faith, 145 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:22.800 one Lord, one Baptism, as Saint Paul says. And this church, 146 00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:25.199 which is the pillar and ground of truth, as Saint 147 00:08:25.240 --> 00:08:26.360 Paul also says. 148 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:29.199 Is one, just like Christ is one. 149 00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:33.759 So when we speaking about, you know, how Christ is one, right, 150 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:36.480 this extends to the church as well. 151 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:39.240 It's not really. 152 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:42.519 Honest to say that, you know, Christ is one, but 153 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:46.000 the Church is meaning. That's it's not really a good outlook, 154 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:47.559 it's an inconsistent outlook. 155 00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:50.240 And so this is why all of this is very crucially, 156 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:50.960 very important. 157 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:53.159 Yeah, it's another form of branch theory. And if you 158 00:08:53.240 --> 00:08:56.360 heard yesterday's stream, I had a pretty heated debate with 159 00:08:56.399 --> 00:08:59.399 an Anglican trying to defend branch theory. So it's really 160 00:08:59.559 --> 00:09:03.200 basically what it is. But anyway, Ky, do you want 161 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:03.960 to go ahead and start? 162 00:09:04.759 --> 00:09:06.559 Yeah, just before I start, I want to just make 163 00:09:06.600 --> 00:09:11.519 another preliminary comment. After the first stream, it looks like 164 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:15.120 the Monophesites, the Orientals, they had a little bit of 165 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:18.240 a meltdown. They started putting out some kind of like 166 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:21.399 refutation streams. I mean, we didn't even get through part 167 00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:24.080 one and we have like a nine part, ten part 168 00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:26.080 series where we're going to discuss all of this stuff. 169 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:27.240 Yeah, and here they are. 170 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:29.960 They think as if we've played all our cards, if 171 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:33.720 we have everything laid out. I'm not going to play 172 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:37.759 their game in terms of getting caught up in all 173 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:41.519 of the details. Right now, We're going to go through 174 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:45.799 this series and just do a very guided treatment of 175 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:50.639 all of these topics. Some of their so called attempts 176 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:53.799 at refuting us will just naturally play out to demonstrate 177 00:09:53.799 --> 00:09:57.159 that they basically have nothing. But we will circle back 178 00:09:57.159 --> 00:10:00.799 at some point and just demonstrate the the nonsense that 179 00:10:00.840 --> 00:10:05.279 they're that they're putting out. So don't worry. At some 180 00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:08.279 point we will address all the stuff that they're that 181 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:12.279 they're talking about. We're just gonna do it on our terms. Okay, 182 00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:15.279 we have the upper hand in this, right. We will 183 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:18.639 take the time and we will do a thorough treatment, 184 00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:23.320 and we will demonstrate the absolute stupidity of the Oriental position, 185 00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:28.759 the Oriental argumentation, and just really drive the point home 186 00:10:29.240 --> 00:10:33.519 that these people are idiots. They don't know metaphysics, they 187 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:37.480 just quote mine. They have no idea what they are 188 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:38.159 talking about. 189 00:10:38.440 --> 00:10:42.279 So that also, and they're just using these discussions to 190 00:10:42.440 --> 00:10:46.399 get attention for their channels. That's basically with it, of course. 191 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:48.519 And then they're they're making memes and all this stuff. 192 00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:51.080 I mean, go ahead, make your memes. I don't really 193 00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:55.039 care about that, because that's all you guys can do. 194 00:10:56.480 --> 00:11:00.240 So to launch in So what we talked about before, 195 00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:05.879 we started off looking at triadology and kind of setting 196 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:12.360 the stage for the orthodox Christological paradigm, and we're contrasting 197 00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:17.200 that with the Orientals and the Nestorians, and now we're 198 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:21.399 kind of building it up. We ended the last stream 199 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:26.399 with basically looking at Saint Cyril of Alexandria in his 200 00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:30.159 letter to Empitheodosius, and this was some those were these 201 00:11:30.159 --> 00:11:33.919 are some key statements that he makes where he's not 202 00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:39.279 relying on specific terms to set up the paradigm. He's 203 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:44.759 telling you in concepts to understand what exactly is being 204 00:11:44.759 --> 00:11:49.080 communicated by him, how to understand Christ. And so this 205 00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:53.960 is very important because we're not building our paradigm based 206 00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:58.000 on certain terms. We're building our paradigm based on ideas, 207 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:01.639 and then these terms that we use are meant to 208 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:08.200 reflect these ideas. And now when we continue building up 209 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:10.840 this paradigm, we're going to look at some of the 210 00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:15.759 key texts that really make it very clear what the 211 00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:20.919 Orthodox position is. And one of these documents it is 212 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:25.559 Canon five of the Fifth Ecumenical Council, the Council in 213 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:28.879 five point fifty three, and this ties into one of 214 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:32.279 the early slides from part from the first Stream that 215 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:35.879 I was saying how the Fifth Ecumenical Council is basically 216 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:39.919 like a litmus test whether or not you subscribe to 217 00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:44.360 a Nestorian reading of Chalcidon of the Fourth Council or not, 218 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:50.080 because at issue here is the Church of the East. 219 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:54.399 The Assyrian Church, whati we call is the Historian Church, 220 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:56.840 and we rightly call it the Historian Church because it 221 00:12:56.919 --> 00:13:00.519 is a historian. It does teach historianism. Well, what the 222 00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:04.559 Orientals will do is they will say that, okay, you 223 00:13:04.600 --> 00:13:09.919 see these Nestorians. They agree with Chalcedon, and therefore CalCon 224 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:13.080 is an historian. And so this first dream really kind 225 00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:16.440 of put to bed how stupid that kind of reasoning is. 226 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:19.919 You can agree on wording but have completely different understandings 227 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:23.840 of the details of those wordings. And so when we 228 00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:27.440 look at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, it starts making things 229 00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:31.840 a lot more clear how Calcedon should be properly understood 230 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:37.360 and how you avoid Nestorianism from the Council of Calcedon. 231 00:13:38.080 --> 00:13:42.840 And so in this canon, it's very clear that to 232 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:48.639 hold the Orthodox position, you cannot in any way subscribe 233 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:55.120 to this notion that in Christ are many hypostasies. And 234 00:13:55.639 --> 00:13:59.919 this is very important because this idea of having multi 235 00:14:00.279 --> 00:14:05.039 hypostasis in Christ is found in both the Oriental position 236 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:11.240 and the Nestorian position. The main differentiator between these two 237 00:14:11.399 --> 00:14:18.200 is that the Nestorians maintain that these hypostases are juxtaposed, 238 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:23.240 they maintain their complete identities, whereas the Orientals allow a 239 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:27.320 combination of the hypostasis to result in a tertium quid, 240 00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:32.840 a new hypostasis. And so this is something that we reject. 241 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:36.480 This is something that can in five makes absolutely clear. 242 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:42.080 You cannot hold to any notion of multiple hypostasies in Christ. 243 00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:50.120 And you must profess that there is only one hypostasis, 244 00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:59.240 one person of Christ. And this hypostasis is what is 245 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:03.120 in fleshed. It's not that you have some kind of 246 00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:07.960 a hypostasis that takes on accidents of human nature and 247 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:15.480 somehow conjoins with the divine hypostasis. That hypostasis of Christ 248 00:15:15.879 --> 00:15:19.879 is divine only. And there is no way you can 249 00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:24.039 get around that. If you speak of any other kind 250 00:15:24.039 --> 00:15:29.000 of epostasis in Christ, then you are not Orthodox. Is 251 00:15:29.039 --> 00:15:31.440 there anything either of you want to add to that. 252 00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:34.399 No, that's a great statement of fact. That and that 253 00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:37.759 vindicates as we've been saying for many years now. The 254 00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:43.120 Fifth Council really demonstrates the error of not just these 255 00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:46.879 online the historian positions, but and an off side positions 256 00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:50.240 meophys out whatever. It also refuses the other people in 257 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:52.399 the so called Orthodox circles that are confused on this. 258 00:15:56.799 --> 00:15:58.639 All right, If there's nothing, David, I'm going to move on. 259 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:04.480 So we take a look here at some more explicit statements. 260 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:09.039 We'll look at one from Saint Justinian and per Saint Justinian, 261 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:14.919 I put the entire text up for context, and I 262 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:16.879 get it. Some of you guys who are watching the 263 00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:19.799 stream on the phone, it's very small font for you, 264 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:22.200 you can't read it. If you're watch in your browser 265 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:24.679 and you make the stream full screen, then you will 266 00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:28.039 be able to read the text quite nicely. But I 267 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:30.759 am thinking at some point in the future I will 268 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:34.080 make the slides publicly available, so then you guys can 269 00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:38.519 have direct access to that. So I'll just read the 270 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:41.000 highlighted portions because those are the ones that are more 271 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:45.000 that are more relevant. So Saint Justinian, he's saying the 272 00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:49.200 hypostatic union means that the divine logos, that is to say, 273 00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:54.039 one hypostasis of the three divine hypostasis is not united 274 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:58.240 to a man who has his own hypostasis before the union, 275 00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:00.559 but that in the womb of the Holy Virgin, the 276 00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:05.200 Divine Logos made for himself in his own hypostasis flesh 277 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:07.839 that was taken from her, and that was endowed with 278 00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:12.720 the reasonable and intellectual soul i e. Human nature. So 279 00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:16.279 this is really important because what it's saying here is 280 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:20.799 this understanding of hypostatic union, or using the term hypostatic union, 281 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:25.200 is something that we share in common with the Orientals, 282 00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:29.799 but we understand it completely differently. So what Saint Justinian 283 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:35.680 is saying here is the hypostatus, that the hypostatus, that hypostasis, 284 00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:41.160 that is, Christ is the subject for his infleshment, and 285 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:45.960 it's in that where the union occurs of the natures 286 00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:52.759 in that one hypostasis. The Orientals understand hypostatic union to 287 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:57.640 mean that you have two hypostases, one that is particular 288 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:00.799 to the divine nature, another one that is particular to 289 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:04.680 the human nature, that combine in such a way to 290 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:08.960 give you a single hypostasis. Though the properties of the 291 00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:12.680 divine and human do not intermingle, according to them, but 292 00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:17.359 nevertheless you do result in one hypostasis coming together, and 293 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:20.839 that is where they find quote unquote a union. 294 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:24.319 When you say, according to them, they do not intermingle, 295 00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:27.200 you must mean they're the the Storian side, right, because 296 00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:28.960 the other side says they do intermingle. 297 00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:32.680 Well, they would say that you could. So the Orientals 298 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:36.799 would say that they the hypostasis come together, but that 299 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:41.880 you can still distinguish the divine properties and the human properties, 300 00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:45.200 so that there isn't some kind of a new while 301 00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:52.160 like a new divino human property. There is a tertim quid. 302 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:54.880 But they will say that there is still a distinction 303 00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:59.000 in the properties. Now we our critique is is that 304 00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:02.680 this is an inconsistent position, right, that this does not 305 00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:07.200 make sense. It doesn't follow from the metaphysics. You can't 306 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:11.160 avoid having a mixture. So I'm just saying this is 307 00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:13.240 the way. They're just trying to play the word games 308 00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:16.240 by saying, well, we're going to combine these hypostasies, but 309 00:19:16.279 --> 00:19:18.240 we don't really actually have a mingling, but we can 310 00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:21.400 only talk about one. It's like you can't have it 311 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:26.720 both ways. So what you're saying doesn't actually follow from 312 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:30.519 the metaphysics right that you're professing. It's exactly the same 313 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:33.279 way how we critique the historians, where they say, well, 314 00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:35.839 no we don't believe in two persons, we believe in 315 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:38.519 one person. Well, first of all, what do you mean 316 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:41.599 by one person? But no, you guys want to have 317 00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:45.200 a certain result. But your metaphysics doesn't allow it, and 318 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:50.000 so you're actually holding to an inconsistent position. Absolutely, okay, 319 00:19:50.599 --> 00:19:53.279 And so now Saint Justinian, he just ends this portion. 320 00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:55.680 He says, for the fact of the matter is that 321 00:19:55.720 --> 00:19:59.680 whenever this father said one nature of the logos incarnate, 322 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:04.599 so here he's referring to Saint Athanasius, who would use 323 00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:07.680 that phrase one nature of the logos incarnate. He used 324 00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:12.200 the term quote unquote nature in this formula for hypostasis, 325 00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:15.640 meaning that the way we understand one nature of the 326 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:20.400 logos incarnate, we mean that Christ is a single subject, 327 00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:26.440 that divine hypostasis is the subject for his infleshment. In 328 00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:28.799 the writings in which he makes use of this formula, 329 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:31.960 he frequently follows it by adding either the terms sun 330 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:36.599 or logos or only begotten, which are not names that 331 00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:42.319 indicate nature, but the hypostasis or prosopon. So this is 332 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:47.079 really beautiful that you see in Saint Cyril is Saint 333 00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:53.559 Cyril goes out of his way to supplement what he says. Additionally, 334 00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:55.519 with two, three, four. 335 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:57.319 Others Cyril or Justinian. 336 00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:02.960 No, no, Saint just Onion is making reference to previous sabers. 337 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:05.240 Saint Cyril and Saint Anthonasius. 338 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:08.960 Oh I heard you talking about Athanasius. Where's where's the seril? 339 00:21:09.319 --> 00:21:10.799 Yeah? I was, I was. 340 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:13.000 I also wanted to add, like, in terms of one 341 00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:17.319 nature statement, it's not found in Saint Anthonasius, It's found 342 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:20.920 in Saint Carol. But there are the press is having 343 00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:24.000 one nature that are a poonym, because the Polonais himself 344 00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:27.000 was actually the first one to say that Christ was 345 00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:27.680 one nature. 346 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:30.319 Exactly to ada on Kye's point. 347 00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:32.160 What he's trying to make, what he's trying to say 348 00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:35.200 here is is that the one nature of the word 349 00:21:35.240 --> 00:21:39.079 incarnate that statement of Saint Carole of Alexander the way 350 00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:41.599 he understand it. First of all, he qualifies it with 351 00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:44.079 it being in fleshed, and he even goes as far 352 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:46.839 as to say, if you didn't make this qualification, then yes, 353 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:49.960 we will be saying something heretical. So he actually implies 354 00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:52.319 that you know, just like any formula, that there needs 355 00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:54.519 to be qualifications. And the point that Saint Justin is 356 00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:57.559 making we know that the term one nature here does 357 00:21:57.599 --> 00:21:59.720 not refer to nature in the sense that we use 358 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:03.799 it as you know, essence or substance. It means you know, 359 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:07.160 a person because the terms sun logos only begots in. 360 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:11.279 These are names. These are terms that refer to the hypostasis. 361 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:12.799 Yeah, the first to the person. 362 00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:16.640 It does not refer to natural properties. Right, we don't 363 00:22:16.680 --> 00:22:18.319 refer to the divine nature as sun. 364 00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:19.359 Father. 365 00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:22.119 The Father is not a sun, right, the Father is 366 00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:25.559 not the only begotten for example, Right, Yeah, these names 367 00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:29.799 are proper to the person, the word of God himself. 368 00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:33.799 What alone, Right, what Kai was probably referring to was 369 00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:37.079 the at the time of Nicea, and if you read 370 00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:40.680 the Nicene Creed, this is why hypostasis refers to nature. 371 00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:43.640 They'll say that, you know, there's one there's one nature 372 00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:46.880 in the godhead, one hypostasis. That's just because the word 373 00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:50.359 is referring to at that time, a particular nature. And 374 00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:53.160 it's after the capp of Dosans that the word takes 375 00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:56.599 on a more precise meaning. But Cyril at times, as 376 00:22:56.680 --> 00:22:59.319 David is saying, might use that term for just a 377 00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:03.200 particular nature. However, in the case that we're looking at, 378 00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:06.440 that particular is nature is particularized by the person of 379 00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:09.640 the word. So it's it's it's not an either or 380 00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:11.839 in the sense of like, well, you only have one 381 00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:14.960 way that you could use the word hyposthasis. Sometimes it's 382 00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:20.160 used in this more nuanced specific sense to refer to 383 00:23:20.279 --> 00:23:23.279 a particular the person that has the nature. And that's 384 00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:24.039 the whole point here. 385 00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:29.799 Yeah, And also like to add throughout the Krillian writings, 386 00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:33.960 like in terms of the Nestorian controversy, you need to 387 00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:39.000 understand how he specifically uses certain terms. So one certain 388 00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:42.240 terminology that he uses is that he'll refer to the 389 00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:46.200 divine nature as Christ's own nature. And I mean he 390 00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:49.720 speaks about the human nature. He does sometimes use the 391 00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:52.079 term nature for it, but a lot of times he 392 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:55.640 kind of just refers to it in various different terms. 393 00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:59.279 And the reason the reason why he does this is 394 00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:02.480 to emphasize is that what he means by the divine 395 00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:04.880 nature of being his own nature, he's actually referring to 396 00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:09.160 the fact that the Word of God is a divine person. Right, 397 00:24:09.319 --> 00:24:12.839 That's kind of what he's trying to point hope, you know, 398 00:24:13.279 --> 00:24:17.240 point towards in relation to you know, the partner Storman 399 00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:18.920 position and even the Pulinarian position. 400 00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:20.880 Is on the one hand, he's trying to. 401 00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:25.079 Stand on the fact that all of these activities, all 402 00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:27.880 of these things that Christ does, it refers to the 403 00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:30.319 Word of God, right, that Jesus Christ is the Word 404 00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:30.680 of God. 405 00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:32.119 Right, they're the identical person. 406 00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:36.880 And so he's trying to establish that while also establishing 407 00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:38.920 the reality of Christ's humanity. 408 00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:39.519 Right. 409 00:24:39.559 --> 00:24:43.160 So he'll speak about, you know, Christ assuming hyposthetically the 410 00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:48.880 body and soul, and that he acts in accordance with 411 00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:53.559 his human nature. And he'll even argues, for example that, 412 00:24:54.200 --> 00:24:56.480 for example, in certain passages of Scripture. 413 00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:00.359 When Scripture says the word flesh. 414 00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:03.039 Argue, this means man, right, includes you know, it's about 415 00:25:03.079 --> 00:25:05.279 the body and the soul as well, in order to 416 00:25:05.319 --> 00:25:08.240 showcase first of all that he's not a pollinarian because 417 00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:10.599 he affirms that Christ has a soul, but also at 418 00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:13.960 the same time he affirms that this is the divine hypostasis, 419 00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:17.160 the Word of God himself that he's speaking about. So 420 00:25:17.319 --> 00:25:21.720 this is one example that's really important to understand why 421 00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:23.799 seeing Curl uses this kind of terminology. 422 00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:24.640 Now, of course, as. 423 00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:27.000 We're going to see in the presentation in the future 424 00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:32.480 future presentations, this terminology is understood in a very different 425 00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:35.039 light when we look at the on. 426 00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:36.519 Off sadd interpretation of it. 427 00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:41.200 Right, So keep, you know, keep that somewhere in your 428 00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:43.160 mind as we're going with this presentation. 429 00:25:43.880 --> 00:25:47.079 Yeah, yeah, just to kind of clarify what I was saying, 430 00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:51.880 is so when I say Athanasius synathnesis using this same 431 00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:54.960 kind of formula, you have to keep in mind that 432 00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:57.960 at the time, so not discounting what Jay and David 433 00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:01.720 had said with regards to the forgeries, at the time 434 00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:06.319 it was believed that this was an appropriate phraseology to 435 00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:09.519 be used within an Orthodox context, and so I make 436 00:26:09.559 --> 00:26:13.119 that attribution in that sense of the word. Though we 437 00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:17.200 do need to recognize it's a Pollinarian origin, and though 438 00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:20.160 it hasn't a Pollinarian origin, there is a very clear 439 00:26:20.319 --> 00:26:26.079 Orthodox way of understanding that, and the supplementation by terms 440 00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:30.039 additional to its usage really kind of drives the point 441 00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:35.319 home how we're supposed to be understanding this. So we 442 00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:40.960 look at another another instance from Saint Justinian, and this 443 00:26:41.079 --> 00:26:45.279 is actually made by a footnote by Russia, who was 444 00:26:45.319 --> 00:26:49.200 the one to translate on the person of Christ, and 445 00:26:49.559 --> 00:26:53.680 he's encapsulating the way the Christology is understood, and he's saying, 446 00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:58.119 the hypostatsis of Christ is the divine Logos, who is 447 00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:03.640 himself Jesus. So that we see that when we're talking 448 00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:06.559 about the hypostasis of Christ. We're talking of a divine 449 00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:12.880 only hypostasis. There is no additional hypostatic component, if you will, 450 00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:18.599 or element to Christ. And the term composite Christ moreover 451 00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:22.279 refers to the divine logos, not to the divine nature, 452 00:27:22.839 --> 00:27:24.599 and is simply a way of saying that the divine 453 00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:29.559 Logos becomes incarnate by adding to his previously divine mode 454 00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:34.480 of existence a human mode of existence, taking on himself 455 00:27:34.839 --> 00:27:38.799 on his hypostasis all the attributes and properties of human 456 00:27:38.920 --> 00:27:43.799 nature without becoming a human hypostasis. So this is going 457 00:27:43.880 --> 00:27:46.640 to lead into a future stream where we're going to 458 00:27:46.720 --> 00:27:54.079 go into understanding the appellation composite Christ and fleshing that 459 00:27:54.200 --> 00:27:59.000 out how we can make a proper Orthodox understanding of that. 460 00:28:00.039 --> 00:28:03.160 Add to the composite hypostasis between the Orthodox and the 461 00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:06.200 Orientals has very different meanings, as Kay's pointing out here. 462 00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:10.400 For the Orientals, it can mean that the person of 463 00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:14.359 the word the hypostasis itself becomes now a new tertiam quid, 464 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:18.240 a new product of the union, in the sense that 465 00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:22.200 he underwent substantial change, and in fact, one of the 466 00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:24.400 guys calling in you've heard him basically trying to go 467 00:28:24.440 --> 00:28:28.039 down that route a while back. That's the false reading 468 00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:32.559 that we do not accept. Composite hypistasis means that what 469 00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:37.240 he possesses is two what's to Nature's hence, it's just 470 00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:41.559 a restatement of the meaning of diophysite. Diophysite means two natures, 471 00:28:42.119 --> 00:28:43.000 that's all it means. 472 00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:48.519 Yeah, and this is really going to be very important 473 00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:53.440 to understand how the Oriental charge against the Orthodox of 474 00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:59.079 Nestorianism holds no weight whatsoever because what exactly is too 475 00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:04.079 If we're saying that you have substantially one hypostasis, that 476 00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:09.279 is Christ divine only, well, where do you have two persons? 477 00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:12.799 Because Thestorianism is two persons. 478 00:29:12.680 --> 00:29:14.279 Two subjects, right, two. 479 00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:19.279 Subjects exactly, two clearly defined subjects. And it's impossible to 480 00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:21.519 have that reading on the Orthodox context. 481 00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:26.279 Now, yes, I also want to add really quickly, just 482 00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:30.200 a very quick demonstration of the importance of understanding that 483 00:29:30.279 --> 00:29:32.640 Christ is a divine person on the one hand, that 484 00:29:32.680 --> 00:29:36.559 the crisis divine human and how to understand as you know, 485 00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:39.400 kan j pointed out, the composite hype stasis refers to 486 00:29:39.400 --> 00:29:41.839 the composition of the hypesetic union of the two natures 487 00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:45.279 that's the reference to. But we need to understand from 488 00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:49.839 the orthodox perspective, right, it is completely heretical to refer to, 489 00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:52.880 for example, the Virgin Mary as anthropotokos, right, the mother 490 00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:55.960 of the man. Well, why is that wrong? Because isn't 491 00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:56.920 Christ man? 492 00:29:57.119 --> 00:29:57.319 Right? 493 00:29:57.799 --> 00:30:02.079 The reason is because this ter in how you're supposed 494 00:30:02.119 --> 00:30:05.799 to refer to the Virgin Mary. It refers to the person, right, 495 00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:08.720 That's that's one of the main points that we see. 496 00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:11.480 And you know the sour has tried to go around 497 00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:13.480 this by saying, oh, you know, we can call her 498 00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:16.519 mother of Christ, which isn't really especially it doesn't really 499 00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:17.480 convey anything new. 500 00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:22.440 And there are many Christs in scripture, right, which Christ? Right? 501 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:24.680 But if you talk about, you know, the Mother of God, 502 00:30:24.920 --> 00:30:27.359 when it picks out Jesus Christ, right, that picks out. 503 00:30:27.319 --> 00:30:28.160 Jesus Christ as God. 504 00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:31.000 But the reason why we use the term Mother of 505 00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:35.559 God isn't just to be scandalous or because we have this. 506 00:30:35.799 --> 00:30:37.519 You know, we obviously you know a lot of the 507 00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:40.759 Virgin Mary, and it's not just for that reason. It's 508 00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:43.400 also to confess that Christ is a divine person. 509 00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:44.200 Right. 510 00:30:44.680 --> 00:30:48.319 So this is one example in which we can refer 511 00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:52.359 to Christ in a specific way to his divinity. But 512 00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:55.839 we don't make a reference to the Virgin Mary as 513 00:30:55.960 --> 00:30:59.319 again just mother of the man. And it's again it's 514 00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:01.519 not proper to say this. It's not even will I 515 00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:03.160 believe it go as far as I say it's for 516 00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:05.720 the most part, it will be incorrect to say because 517 00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:09.119 the person she gave birth to is not a human person. 518 00:31:09.160 --> 00:31:10.200 It's a divine person. 519 00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:14.200 And if you're talking about a theanthropic person, right, divine 520 00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:17.640 human person, that is again a reference to the natures 521 00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:21.640 of Christ, right that he is in a sense composed 522 00:31:21.640 --> 00:31:24.920 of in the hypostatic union. It is not bringing in 523 00:31:25.119 --> 00:31:30.319 another human person or human personality into Christ. That's an 524 00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:34.519 important distinction to make. And the you know, Theotoko's term 525 00:31:35.119 --> 00:31:37.359 is one illustration of why that's important. 526 00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:43.160 Yeah, thanks so much for that, David. In terms of anthropotocus, 527 00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:45.079 I do have slides that I'm going to get to 528 00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:48.519 and we will talk about this specifically and how it 529 00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:53.880 relates to the Church of the East and Nestorianism. Some 530 00:31:54.039 --> 00:31:58.160 other statements I'm actually going to pull from the Catechism 531 00:31:58.359 --> 00:32:01.920 of the Roman Catholic Church. And though we as Orthodox 532 00:32:02.039 --> 00:32:08.519 have issues with the Roman Catholics, on this particular point, 533 00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:15.559 it actually does reinforce the idea that Christ is a 534 00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:18.960 divine only person, and so I have it listed. There 535 00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:22.599 are the specific sections the paragraphs where you can find these, 536 00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:25.720 but you have statements from the Roman Catholics that say 537 00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:29.400 stuff like Christ humanity has no other subject than the 538 00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:33.680 divine person of the Son of God. We confess that 539 00:32:33.720 --> 00:32:36.440 one in the same Christ, Lord and only begotten Son 540 00:32:36.599 --> 00:32:40.839 is to be acknowledged in two natures without confusion, change, division, 541 00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:44.599 or separation. The distinction between the natures was never abolished 542 00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:47.599 by their union, but rather the character property each of 543 00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:50.680 the two natures was preserved as they came together in 544 00:32:51.319 --> 00:32:57.279 one person prosopone and one hypostasis. Everything in Christ's human 545 00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:01.160 nature is to be attributed to his divine person as 546 00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:06.400 its proper subject. Christ's human nature belongs as his own 547 00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:09.680 to the divine person of the Son of God who 548 00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:13.440 assumed it. The Son of God therefore communicates to his 549 00:33:13.599 --> 00:33:19.960 humanity his own personal mode of existence in the Trinity. Now, 550 00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:25.119 the reason why I'm bringing in the Roman Catholic points 551 00:33:25.160 --> 00:33:29.079 here is not because we need the Roman Catholics to 552 00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:35.960 substantiate the Orthodox position. I'm bringing these in to show 553 00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:43.319 how the Roman Catholic Church is setting itself up in 554 00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:47.240 a contradiction when it says that it professes the same 555 00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:52.599 Christology as other churches, for example, the Orientals or the 556 00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:55.400 Church of the East. And I'll get to the point 557 00:33:55.480 --> 00:34:00.799 where there was the joint agreement signed between Theman Catholics 558 00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:04.599 and the Assyrian Church that says, well, basically, we're professing 559 00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:08.239 the same faith. No, we are not professing the same faith. 560 00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:12.360 The Assyrian Church of the East, that is a Nestorian, 561 00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:18.559 will not permit this kind of language. It is absolutely 562 00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:24.360 against the Christology to use this kind of expressions and 563 00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:29.159 apply that to Christ. It just does not work. 564 00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:32.480 So note again the double hypocrisy there as Chai's pointing out. 565 00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:36.360 On the one hand, the classical Roman Catholic position and 566 00:34:36.360 --> 00:34:40.719 the Orthodox position on this specific point are in perfect unison. 567 00:34:40.840 --> 00:34:44.000 We do not disagree at this point. But yet Rome, 568 00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:46.639 as Chai is pointing out, because they want to, for 569 00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:51.039 geopolitical and ecumenist reasons, placate and pretend that they're all 570 00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:54.679 part of the same church. They now honor and revere Marnastorius, 571 00:34:55.480 --> 00:34:58.320 and so this stuff is played down. When even the 572 00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:01.480 Orientals will not agree to these positions, as Kai is 573 00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:05.880 pointing out again showing that only the Orthodox position has 574 00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:11.159 been consistent, and Rome admitting classically the Orthodox position, confirms 575 00:35:11.159 --> 00:35:11.559 that point. 576 00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:18.159 I also want to add the parts for Kai oltdye 577 00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:21.440 in green. A lot of them are, you know, sometimes 578 00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:24.760 direct quotations, sometimes very clear paraphrases of seeing Curla, f 579 00:35:24.760 --> 00:35:28.719 alexandri One in particular the last one right Christ human 580 00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:30.719 nature belongs as his own to the divine person of 581 00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:32.719 the Son of God who assumed it. And then he 582 00:35:32.760 --> 00:35:35.440 says this son of God therefore communicates to his humanity 583 00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:38.519 his own personal mode of existence in the Trinity. So 584 00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:41.320 seeing Carola, I think something says something very similar, but 585 00:35:41.559 --> 00:35:43.039 says it in a different way, and I think it's 586 00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:45.599 very relevant to the Orthodox view. He says this in 587 00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:50.559 his Scholia on the Incarnation, he says, and he communicates 588 00:35:50.599 --> 00:35:53.639 as to his own flesh the operation that is the 589 00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:56.880 energy of his own divine powers. This was how he 590 00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:58.679 was able to give life to the dead and to 591 00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:03.000 heal the sick. This statement from Saint Curle that you know, 592 00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:07.000 the Roman Catholic Catholicism is making a reference, is actually 593 00:36:07.480 --> 00:36:11.119 making I will say a stronger point that the divine 594 00:36:11.239 --> 00:36:16.760 energies of God, right yeah, and consistent, Yeah yeah, fully 595 00:36:16.760 --> 00:36:21.440 interpreenetrate his humanity in a very strong way. Right, And 596 00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:24.599 this is a model to our salvation essentially. 597 00:36:24.920 --> 00:36:28.519 And keep in mind Rome does not teach. Rome does 598 00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:31.519 not teach that there are uncreated energies after Trent. 599 00:36:33.559 --> 00:36:37.480 Yes, so that kind of brought to my mind when 600 00:36:37.480 --> 00:36:37.880 I was saying. 601 00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:40.599 But as I said, a lot of these parts in 602 00:36:40.599 --> 00:36:44.760 Green there are again either direct quotations or paraphrase of 603 00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:47.119 what Saint Kurla Alexander is saying. But the last one 604 00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:50.880 needs I think a bit of a clarification to understand 605 00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:52.320 it even even better. 606 00:36:53.840 --> 00:36:59.320 Yeah, So now we're going to ask the question what 607 00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:04.440 makes it so object because if we're going to insist 608 00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:09.280 that Nestorianism is two subjects, so we need to kind 609 00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:11.920 of look at, well, what do we mean when we 610 00:37:12.039 --> 00:37:17.440 say a subject? And so we understand hypostasis in the 611 00:37:17.480 --> 00:37:20.960 sense of a concrete, ontological existent and not in the 612 00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:25.280 sense of an abstract category. So, for example, hypostasis in 613 00:37:25.320 --> 00:37:27.800 the sense of nicee a one where it was just 614 00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:33.280 a nature like human nature. And so though hypostasis was 615 00:37:33.400 --> 00:37:36.119 used by Hellenic philosophers as well as in scripture and 616 00:37:36.199 --> 00:37:40.840 some of the Church fathers in that antiquated sense and 617 00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:45.960 the most immediate references in Hebrews one three. The Christological 618 00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:52.440 application of hypostasis, indicating a concrete ontological existent, is an 619 00:37:52.440 --> 00:37:56.079 extension of Origins usage with regards to the Holy Trinity. Now, 620 00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:59.079 I want to be careful here because that does not 621 00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:02.960 mean what we that we are using hypostasis in the 622 00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:07.719 way Origin himself understood it in a complete sense. It's 623 00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:11.880 just more of this idea to avoid modalism, so that 624 00:38:11.960 --> 00:38:18.280 you have a real distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 625 00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:22.760 And so for Origin, hypostasis is what gives the Son 626 00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:26.760 as well as the Holy Spirit a truly real ontological 627 00:38:26.800 --> 00:38:30.639 existence distinct from the Father and not just a distinction 628 00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:36.760 in thought only, so it staves off modalism, whereas for modalist, 629 00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:43.039 a persona does not have ontological status or person, but 630 00:38:43.639 --> 00:38:48.239 making person identical to hypostasis, thereby making both points to 631 00:38:48.280 --> 00:38:54.840 the same underlying ontology is Cappadocian. And this is very important, 632 00:38:56.480 --> 00:39:00.840 and essentially what it's saying is is that the individuated 633 00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:06.320 is the individual. You can't separate that. And when you 634 00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:11.360 talk to the Church of the East and historians they 635 00:39:12.440 --> 00:39:17.760 play this three tier onto logical game where they'll say 636 00:39:18.519 --> 00:39:23.000 the hypostasis that they will in a way equate it 637 00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:25.440 with knuma, but at the same time say, well, it's 638 00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:30.440 not really an equivalence. They will say the pnuma is 639 00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:36.679 what individuates a kiana or a nature, but then to 640 00:39:36.760 --> 00:39:41.360 get the individual that's the function of the parasupa or 641 00:39:41.400 --> 00:39:46.280 the prosopon. So it would be like if you would 642 00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:52.000 think the knuma is like a mannequin, you have a 643 00:39:52.119 --> 00:39:56.280 row of mannequins that you can enumerate, but you can't 644 00:39:56.440 --> 00:40:00.400 really distinguish them, and so for them that that's what 645 00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:04.840 individuated means. It's something that is concretized that acts as 646 00:40:04.840 --> 00:40:10.480 a substrate to concretize an abstract, But there still needs 647 00:40:10.519 --> 00:40:15.559 to be some kind of individualizing of each of these 648 00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:19.599 things that are individuated. So you think of like multiple mannequins, 649 00:40:19.639 --> 00:40:24.159 you dress them up in different garb, and now you 650 00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:26.519 can enumerate them and distinguish them. 651 00:40:26.599 --> 00:40:29.400 And that's specifically referring to the Church of the East 652 00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:31.719 this terminology because of the only audience is going to 653 00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:33.840 get their audience is going to get confused and lost, 654 00:40:33.880 --> 00:40:39.400 and where simultaneous are responding to both the Coptic position, 655 00:40:39.480 --> 00:40:41.840 the orient position, and the Assyrian position, et cetera. 656 00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:46.199 Yes, exactly, and so this is very important because this 657 00:40:46.360 --> 00:40:52.199 is where we see the metaphysical paradigms completely diverge, and 658 00:40:52.239 --> 00:40:56.800 this is where it makes it impossible for example, Rome 659 00:40:57.360 --> 00:41:01.199 to come into a Christological agree with the Church of 660 00:41:01.239 --> 00:41:06.320 the East. So either the two sides are absolutely stupid 661 00:41:06.519 --> 00:41:10.760 in their understanding of their metaphysics, or it's just a 662 00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:14.360 geopolitical game that they're playing. They're looking for some kind 663 00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:22.079 of geopolitical benefit for coming into union. But the Cappadocian 664 00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:26.639 sense is very clear that you can't individuate without at 665 00:41:26.639 --> 00:41:33.199 the same time individualizing, So the individual is what is individuated. 666 00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:39.239 So a subject then is a hypostasis or person in 667 00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:42.800 the sense of a concrete ontological existent in other words, 668 00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:46.960 So for the Cappadocians, if you have a hypostasis, then 669 00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:51.159 you have a subject. And it is from this basic 670 00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:57.199 premise that two hypostasis means you have two subjects or 671 00:41:57.519 --> 00:42:04.360 two persons in capitaltionmenclature. So anyone who believes that Christ 672 00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:08.440 to be two hypostasis in the Cappadocian sense makes of 673 00:42:08.599 --> 00:42:15.000 Christ two subjects or two persons, and maintaining two subjects 674 00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:21.639 in Christ is fundamentally and unavoidably Nestorian. And it doesn't 675 00:42:21.639 --> 00:42:25.559 matter how much one professes Christ to be quote unquote 676 00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:30.639 one person, as the Nestorians do. And one thing that 677 00:42:30.760 --> 00:42:33.639 I think needs to be made clear is that Nestorianism 678 00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:40.519 is properly speaking to profess two subjects in Christ. And 679 00:42:40.599 --> 00:42:43.480 so the reason the Orthodox will say that Nostorianism is 680 00:42:43.519 --> 00:42:47.679 too quote unquote person is because for us person equals 681 00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:51.000 the subject. And that's following the Cappadocians. 682 00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:55.239 And it's restated again as you just saw earlier in 683 00:42:55.280 --> 00:42:57.800 the slides at the Fifth Council, which is intended to 684 00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:01.320 resolve the linguistic dis view. It's on this topic after 685 00:43:01.400 --> 00:43:02.159 many centuries. 686 00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:06.559 Yeah, and just to wrap up this slide, so if 687 00:43:06.679 --> 00:43:11.440 a different metaphysical system is used, and in this I'm 688 00:43:11.440 --> 00:43:13.360 going to use an example of the Church of the East, 689 00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:17.760 where their notion of person is not the same as 690 00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:22.000 our notion of person, but two subjects can still be 691 00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:25.760 identified in Christ, meaning that you still have two concrete 692 00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:30.840 ontological existence along the lines of hypostasis, which they will 693 00:43:30.840 --> 00:43:35.679 call Pnuma as an individuate in nature, then that still 694 00:43:36.039 --> 00:43:41.679 constitutes Nestorianism, and in a similar vein the Oriental churches 695 00:43:41.719 --> 00:43:44.920 are also to be considered a historian since the incarnation 696 00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:50.519 adds another concrete ontological existent, the human hypostasis, to Christ. 697 00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:54.400 Though the combining of the hypostasis in their scheme results 698 00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:59.079 in a form of monophysitism, it doesn't matter that they 699 00:43:59.079 --> 00:44:03.119 will say that the human hypostatic component in Christ is 700 00:44:03.719 --> 00:44:09.280 never separate from the divine. Nevertheless, the fact that it's 701 00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:15.320 added as a concrete means that you still have some 702 00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:19.920 kind of two subjects that in some form reduces to 703 00:44:20.119 --> 00:44:25.199 a one subject, So it would be a etertium quid subsc. 704 00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:28.000 But the point is that both of them are using 705 00:44:28.039 --> 00:44:30.639 the same faulty definition of what a person or or 706 00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:35.719 or what person hypostasis are, right, They coming to different conclusions. 707 00:44:35.800 --> 00:44:40.559 Yeah, they're just making different metaphysical moves, but making. 708 00:44:40.760 --> 00:44:45.079 But it's based on the same mistaken idea of hypostasis 709 00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:50.440 as a particular particular nature, right. 710 00:44:50.920 --> 00:44:52.320 Correct, Correct? 711 00:44:53.119 --> 00:44:53.360 Yeah. 712 00:44:53.800 --> 00:44:56.000 I'd also like to add, if you want to really 713 00:44:56.039 --> 00:44:58.320 simplify it, you can just think of this in terms 714 00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:03.320 of Aristotelian s since accident dichotomy, and this is going. 715 00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:04.480 To be this time. 716 00:45:04.639 --> 00:45:07.800 I'm planning on talking about this in future streams much 717 00:45:07.800 --> 00:45:12.039 more extensively. But if you talk about, you know, substance 718 00:45:12.119 --> 00:45:16.280 versus accident as defined as substance has self subsistent, accident 719 00:45:16.360 --> 00:45:20.760 is non self subsistent, the main difference is, well, I 720 00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:24.679 guess not the main difference. The common part that monosis 721 00:45:24.679 --> 00:45:29.679 and the stories both have is this system and that 722 00:45:29.960 --> 00:45:33.880 person in terms of rational beings, refers to a self 723 00:45:33.880 --> 00:45:36.639 subsistent substance. And this is where we get the question 724 00:45:36.679 --> 00:45:38.559 of Okay, how do we understand crisis one person? The 725 00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:41.159 monopaid answer is, well, it has to be one substance. 726 00:45:41.320 --> 00:45:43.400 Then the historian answer is, well, we have to protect 727 00:45:43.400 --> 00:45:47.880 the quality of the natures. So two substances, and within 728 00:45:47.920 --> 00:45:51.119 the certain view you get two self subsistent things. With 729 00:45:51.239 --> 00:45:54.800 the monoposide, you get one self subsistent you know. Think 730 00:45:54.880 --> 00:45:59.559 but both of these views lead to incorrect paths. And 731 00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:01.800 the reason or that that being the case is because 732 00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:05.239 they actually share the same pre suppositions that the Orthodox 733 00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:06.159 do not hold to. 734 00:46:06.280 --> 00:46:09.320 So I believe I think, yeah. 735 00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:12.320 Saint Curly even says in the Scolia that the universal 736 00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:16.239 particular distinction makes it hard to explain certain things about 737 00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:18.400 you know, Christology, and he kind of points out that 738 00:46:18.559 --> 00:46:21.760 it's not actually fully you know, helpful to kind. 739 00:46:21.639 --> 00:46:24.679 Of just completely use you. 740 00:46:24.639 --> 00:46:28.760 Know, aristotelic understanding of substance and accidents and particular and universal. 741 00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:32.400 They need to be understood in an ecclesiastical manner. And 742 00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:34.960 this is exactly what we see in the in the 743 00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:38.880 Fifth Council, of the sixth Council. Uh, this getting more 744 00:46:38.960 --> 00:46:42.119 you know, ecclesiastically, you know, define it a stronger. 745 00:46:41.800 --> 00:46:43.599 Aid even in the FLIC Medical Council. 746 00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:46.960 So this is again a very crucial point to bear 747 00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:50.360 in mind. Otherwise you're going to have very serious problems 748 00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:53.239 in terms of the Trinity and Christology, right, You're going 749 00:46:53.280 --> 00:46:54.880 to go wrong in both of these pasts. 750 00:46:54.920 --> 00:46:56.400 So it's very important to understand that. 751 00:46:56.480 --> 00:47:02.039 A person is not simply just a particular nature or 752 00:47:02.119 --> 00:47:05.800 just a particularization. But it is certainly correct to say 753 00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:09.039 that it is very the particularization occurs. And that's a 754 00:47:09.159 --> 00:47:12.239 very fine distinction, but a very important distinction that we see, 755 00:47:12.280 --> 00:47:15.920 especially in Leontius of Jerusalem and the you know, the 756 00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:19.639 time of the Fifth Council This becomes pretty much over time, 757 00:47:20.360 --> 00:47:23.760 the main understood way of thinking about hypostasis, and another 758 00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:25.679 key point I want to make, you know, I want to. 759 00:47:25.599 --> 00:47:27.320 Make again further simplify things. 760 00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:33.039 The modelists use the term prosopon right, which is translated 761 00:47:33.079 --> 00:47:37.400 as person as to the persons of the trinity. Right, 762 00:47:37.400 --> 00:47:40.400 there are three prosopa. But the problem with the term 763 00:47:40.400 --> 00:47:43.000 process upon in the Greek is it also means mask. 764 00:47:43.079 --> 00:47:47.239 It means appearance, right, So it doesn't have this substantiative 765 00:47:47.920 --> 00:47:52.000 meaning of you know, personhood as a real concrete sense. 766 00:47:52.039 --> 00:47:56.079 But hypostasis does because hyperstatis literally and it used to 767 00:47:56.360 --> 00:48:01.159 pretty much mean basically this prior to the fourth century 768 00:48:02.360 --> 00:48:03.280 as just essence. 769 00:48:03.760 --> 00:48:04.000 Right. 770 00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:10.920 In Greek it literally meets substance hepaw under and stasis standing, 771 00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:16.039 so it's basically substance and it's again that's an example 772 00:48:16.079 --> 00:48:21.239 of a term becoming transformed in order to ecclesiastically defined 773 00:48:21.559 --> 00:48:23.920 in a stronger manner the Orthodox faith. 774 00:48:24.039 --> 00:48:26.760 Yes, exactly, are you done? Can I say something? You 775 00:48:26.760 --> 00:48:27.280 want to keep going? 776 00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:28.960 Yeah? Sure, yeah, sure, you can go ahead. 777 00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:32.440 This is also where the Cappadocians and others bring in 778 00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:36.840 uh erisk Aerosol's notion of primary and secondary substance, which 779 00:48:36.840 --> 00:48:39.719 correspond to person and nature as well. This is why 780 00:48:39.719 --> 00:48:43.719 it's very crucial for trinitary theology and Christology to make 781 00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:47.519 the nature person distinction. And that's really what's underlying the 782 00:48:47.559 --> 00:48:50.800 page and the page that Kai has up. This is 783 00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:53.000 why by the time of Saint John Amascus, he will 784 00:48:53.039 --> 00:48:57.039 say twice, you know, on the Orthodox faith. I'm pretty 785 00:48:57.039 --> 00:49:00.440 sure twice he says that the failure to distinguish nature 786 00:49:00.440 --> 00:49:03.360 and person is in fact the root of all heresies, 787 00:49:03.800 --> 00:49:08.800 and so this confusion is central here to avoid we 788 00:49:08.840 --> 00:49:12.760 absolutely have to avoid the confusion collapsing nature into person 789 00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:16.280 or making person nature. I just put up a thing 790 00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:18.239 about the Tomas that do this very thing when they 791 00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:20.639 talk about a saiety as the divine essence. I'm not 792 00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:23.400 going to get into all that tonight, but Kai, I 793 00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:27.199 did have a question for you, because it's David actually 794 00:49:27.199 --> 00:49:31.000 touched on it indirectly, which is this confusing usage of 795 00:49:31.119 --> 00:49:35.119 pros upon by the Nestorians. Nestorians will talk about a 796 00:49:35.119 --> 00:49:37.519 prosopic union. I think you did touch on a last time, 797 00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:40.360 but I think somebody in the chat made a comment 798 00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:43.920 to this effect. Is that because in other words, it's 799 00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:45.679 not that there's a problem with the word pros upon, 800 00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:49.400 but the Nestorian understanding of pros upon is not the 801 00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:51.760 same thing as what we mean by pros upon. And 802 00:49:51.760 --> 00:49:55.840 that's why that terminology might be utilized by the Coptics, 803 00:49:55.840 --> 00:49:57.960 for example, because they would say, oh, you're using the 804 00:49:58.039 --> 00:50:00.360 Nestorian idea because you're using the word pros on, so 805 00:50:00.400 --> 00:50:04.079 you just mean it's a mask, no no by for us. 806 00:50:04.159 --> 00:50:08.079 As the Fifth Council says, prosopon refers to the hypostasis 807 00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:08.920 of the word. 808 00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:11.639 Yeah. So I don't want to get into too much 809 00:50:11.679 --> 00:50:15.559 detail now, just because I actually will go into greater details. 810 00:50:17.679 --> 00:50:22.400 But basically, we have our two tierontology of nature, person, 811 00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:25.639 and here we're using person to refer to the same 812 00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:30.440 ontology as the hypostasis, so we're using it equivalently synonymously. 813 00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:34.480 But the historians they have a three tier ontology basically 814 00:50:34.719 --> 00:50:38.960 nature hypostasis, person, and for them, in the Church of 815 00:50:38.960 --> 00:50:43.519 the East, person does not mean the same thing as hypostasis. 816 00:50:44.039 --> 00:50:47.639 I will get into greater until explain exactly what this 817 00:50:47.920 --> 00:50:49.039 whole system entails. 818 00:50:50.159 --> 00:50:53.679 I also want to add, like very shortly, when it 819 00:50:53.719 --> 00:50:57.719 comes to the christology of the vest and I think 820 00:50:57.719 --> 00:51:01.000 it's very clear that prior to the Council Ofdon, the 821 00:51:01.079 --> 00:51:06.400 Cristogiost is very you know, to nature focus, it's very Diophysite. Again, 822 00:51:06.440 --> 00:51:08.880 I think this is kind of it's very difficult to 823 00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:12.039 argue against this. But when they use the term person, 824 00:51:12.880 --> 00:51:17.119 it is not as weak as the Greek term prosopon right, 825 00:51:17.119 --> 00:51:21.320 because the Latin understanding of person already incorporates some kind 826 00:51:21.320 --> 00:51:25.679 of substantiality to it by nature of the way it's 827 00:51:25.800 --> 00:51:27.719 used in the Latin language. 828 00:51:28.119 --> 00:51:30.719 So that's also something to bear in mind. So then, 829 00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:32.320 for example, you know. 830 00:51:32.280 --> 00:51:35.079 The tone of Leo talks about Christ being one person, 831 00:51:35.519 --> 00:51:38.440 it is not as weak as a Greek saying Christ 832 00:51:38.559 --> 00:51:40.719 is one prosopon right, And the story can say that, 833 00:51:40.760 --> 00:51:43.239 but lost I can say that, Orthodox can say that. 834 00:51:43.679 --> 00:51:47.480 But in the Latin context it's actually quite different. Right, 835 00:51:48.440 --> 00:51:52.840 Latins don't really as far as I know, and I'm 836 00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:55.639 ninety five percent sure in this, but Latins don't really 837 00:51:55.639 --> 00:52:00.679 have this concept of person as just some external external appearance. 838 00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:01.400 Right. 839 00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:05.079 There is indeed the understanding of you know, persona right 840 00:52:05.159 --> 00:52:09.639 as kind of like making up a personality or wearing something. 841 00:52:09.800 --> 00:52:10.360 As a mask. 842 00:52:10.480 --> 00:52:13.559 But again within the Latin context, the way it's used, 843 00:52:13.880 --> 00:52:17.719 that's much weaker, right, And there has been some discussions 844 00:52:17.719 --> 00:52:21.159 from you know, the Western Church prescis in Western Church 845 00:52:21.199 --> 00:52:23.599 on this issue as well at its time. 846 00:52:23.719 --> 00:52:24.599 So that's I. 847 00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:27.960 Think something important to point out that the Western Church 848 00:52:27.960 --> 00:52:31.599 in the Eastern Church in terms of cristogia, although are 849 00:52:31.679 --> 00:52:34.920 unified in this matter, the very certain terms developed, there's 850 00:52:34.920 --> 00:52:37.920 different expressions, right, It's very important to bear this in mind. 851 00:52:38.119 --> 00:52:41.360 The last thing that we should do is anachronistically apply 852 00:52:41.960 --> 00:52:45.840 modern understandings of certain terms for how it was used 853 00:52:45.840 --> 00:52:48.159 in the fifth century. We have to try to understand 854 00:52:48.280 --> 00:52:51.360 how a person in the fifth century understood these terms 855 00:52:51.760 --> 00:52:54.000 in order to understand exactly what they're saying. If you 856 00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:56.159 don't do that, we're just going to be we're not 857 00:52:56.159 --> 00:52:58.760 going to be able to go beyond just making you know, 858 00:52:58.800 --> 00:53:03.760 ten second clips and just trying to own the opponent 859 00:53:03.840 --> 00:53:04.400 and score. 860 00:53:04.280 --> 00:53:05.239 Some Internet points. 861 00:53:05.320 --> 00:53:08.119 That discussion is not going to be going beyond that 862 00:53:08.159 --> 00:53:11.360 if we don't try to understand what these people actually 863 00:53:11.360 --> 00:53:13.320 said for their time. This is why it's important to 864 00:53:14.519 --> 00:53:19.519 actually listen and understand what you're reading. 865 00:53:19.559 --> 00:53:31.880 Right, consubstantial metaphysics. So this is now going into demonstrating 866 00:53:32.320 --> 00:53:36.639 how the Orientals are trying to play two games at 867 00:53:36.679 --> 00:53:42.320 the same time. So to speak of Christ being doubly 868 00:53:42.519 --> 00:53:49.679 consubstantial with the Father meaning divine and Us meaning human, 869 00:53:51.239 --> 00:53:57.360 is to admit Christ is in to nature's and this 870 00:53:57.519 --> 00:54:03.880 is very important. Christ is in two natures if he's 871 00:54:03.920 --> 00:54:10.679 to be doubly consubstantial. But the Orientals they're going to 872 00:54:10.760 --> 00:54:17.960 say that Christ is in one nature, and that denies 873 00:54:18.760 --> 00:54:26.679 the double consubstantiality. So, given that double consubstantiality requires speaking 874 00:54:26.800 --> 00:54:32.320 of two distinct natures, we can speak of Christ in 875 00:54:32.400 --> 00:54:36.679 two distinct natures because he is consubstantial with others in 876 00:54:37.039 --> 00:54:43.960 those natures. In those natures. If you cannot speak of 877 00:54:44.079 --> 00:54:48.880 Christ in two distinct natures, then you cannot speak of 878 00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:56.599 Christ consubstantial with others in those natures. This is important 879 00:54:56.719 --> 00:55:01.480 because it's precisely because consubstanti is at the level of 880 00:55:01.719 --> 00:55:08.559 nature and not hypostasis, that Christ does not require a 881 00:55:08.880 --> 00:55:13.519 human hypostasis in order to become substantial with us according 882 00:55:13.519 --> 00:55:19.360 to human nature. This is why we deny that metaphysical 883 00:55:19.480 --> 00:55:23.559 move that says we must first have some kind of 884 00:55:23.639 --> 00:55:29.840 a human substrate that can individuate or particularize a human nature, 885 00:55:30.320 --> 00:55:34.960 and that substrate has to be particular to that human nature. 886 00:55:35.199 --> 00:55:37.920 We deny that metaphysical move and this is why we 887 00:55:37.960 --> 00:55:43.679 can say that Christ is a divine only hypostasis. Now, 888 00:55:43.760 --> 00:55:47.760 to be consubstantial is to be of the same essence 889 00:55:47.880 --> 00:55:53.480 or homousios, as stipulated by the Nicene Creed, which, as 890 00:55:53.719 --> 00:55:58.519 Saint Anthonasius reminds us, is to be of the same nature. 891 00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:02.519 And he's using the word feces here, for we believe 892 00:56:02.519 --> 00:56:05.199 that there is one Godhead and that it has one 893 00:56:05.639 --> 00:56:08.599 nature feasin, and not that there is one nature of 894 00:56:08.639 --> 00:56:11.559 the Father from which that of the Son of the 895 00:56:11.559 --> 00:56:17.079 Holy Spirit are distinct. So the First Documenical Council mandates 896 00:56:17.519 --> 00:56:21.480 that Christians profess the Father and Son to be of 897 00:56:21.519 --> 00:56:27.639 the same essence homo ussios, meaning consubstantial, which means to 898 00:56:27.719 --> 00:56:31.639 exist in the same nature. But now, if we look 899 00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:36.159 at what the Orientals will say, that Christ can only 900 00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:40.519 be spoken of as being in one nature. So they 901 00:56:40.519 --> 00:56:44.519 will say he's of two natures, but they will not 902 00:56:44.719 --> 00:56:48.559 say that he is in two natures. The Oriental position 903 00:56:49.039 --> 00:56:55.119 is crystal clear that you can only ever speak of 904 00:56:55.239 --> 00:57:04.320 Christ in one nature incarnating. So if he's only in 905 00:57:04.400 --> 00:57:13.599 one nature. The oriental metaphysics has two possibilities. Either Christ 906 00:57:13.719 --> 00:57:17.840 retains only his divine nature and as a result he 907 00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:22.320 is not consubstantial with us, and that means that is 908 00:57:22.360 --> 00:57:28.360 a form of gnosticism. Or Christ's nature changes and as 909 00:57:28.400 --> 00:57:31.920 a result he is no longer consubstantial with the Father, 910 00:57:32.760 --> 00:57:37.760 and that would be a form of arianism. So that 911 00:57:38.159 --> 00:57:45.360 is a metaphysical consequence of the oriental positions. You cannot 912 00:57:45.400 --> 00:57:50.320 have it both ways to say Christ is in one nature, 913 00:57:51.480 --> 00:57:56.440 but say he's doubly consubstantial and saying that he has 914 00:57:56.679 --> 00:58:01.000 human properties and divine properties and that is what makes 915 00:58:01.079 --> 00:58:05.400 him consubstantial and leave it at that. That does not 916 00:58:05.559 --> 00:58:11.239 work if you guys want to contribute anything to that. 917 00:58:13.400 --> 00:58:16.079 Yeah, I mean, the main response you get to this is, 918 00:58:16.400 --> 00:58:17.960 you know, in terms of this, it's like, you know, 919 00:58:18.440 --> 00:58:21.800 Christ is one whole out of two parts, right, and 920 00:58:21.840 --> 00:58:24.440 we are referring to the two parts that the whole 921 00:58:24.599 --> 00:58:27.280 is made of. But again, if you're going to use 922 00:58:27.320 --> 00:58:31.159 the language of consubstantiality and say that this is real 923 00:58:31.280 --> 00:58:34.480 and this is applicable to Christ after the hypostatic union, 924 00:58:35.480 --> 00:58:38.679 I really fail to see how you can affirm double consubstantiality, 925 00:58:38.760 --> 00:58:43.360 but not two natures, right, especially when nature and substance 926 00:58:43.400 --> 00:58:46.480 in disregard that the av use, it is pretty much 927 00:58:46.599 --> 00:58:47.000 the same. 928 00:58:47.599 --> 00:58:49.920 Right. So, and we. 929 00:58:49.920 --> 00:58:54.719 Also know that Serahsophantiac actually explicitly rejects saying that Christ 930 00:58:54.960 --> 00:58:58.519 is into substances. And that's because he has a specific 931 00:58:58.760 --> 00:59:00.559 understanding of universals. 932 00:59:00.639 --> 00:59:00.800 Right. 933 00:59:00.840 --> 00:59:05.559 For him, universals are just collection of all particulars, all hypostasies, basically, 934 00:59:06.239 --> 00:59:09.280 And so to say that there are two substances in 935 00:59:09.360 --> 00:59:12.039 Christ for him will be to say that Christ has 936 00:59:12.400 --> 00:59:14.920 all hypostasis of humanity and divinity in him. 937 00:59:15.079 --> 00:59:17.360 Right, That's kind of how he understands. But of course. 938 00:59:19.079 --> 00:59:22.760 You having a wrong understanding of the relationship between universe 939 00:59:22.800 --> 00:59:27.119 and particular is not a good enough excuse to deny 940 00:59:26.840 --> 00:59:30.519 a formula that actually gives a that has a very 941 00:59:30.559 --> 00:59:35.000 strong expantory power for certain basic truths, such as that 942 00:59:35.079 --> 00:59:37.159 Christ is fully God and fully mad. This is why 943 00:59:37.159 --> 00:59:40.159 it's important again from Nords, that's perspective to make this confession. 944 00:59:41.199 --> 00:59:45.719 And what is united in Christ? And what is being 945 00:59:45.800 --> 00:59:48.360 united in different things? What is united in Christ? 946 00:59:48.400 --> 00:59:48.519 Right? 947 00:59:48.519 --> 00:59:50.719 The two natures being united to each other, they're united 948 00:59:50.800 --> 00:59:55.079 in his person in his hypostasis. You can think of 949 00:59:55.119 --> 00:59:57.960 this in the same sense as the body and the soul, right, 950 00:59:58.000 --> 01:00:01.159 for example, they're united in the person, the body and 951 01:00:01.199 --> 01:00:04.960 the soul. That is uh So that's that's that's all 952 01:00:04.960 --> 01:00:06.000 I have to add for for now. 953 01:00:06.119 --> 01:00:09.199 Yeah, I'd also just like to add the conceptential metaphysics. 954 01:00:09.960 --> 01:00:14.000 Conceptentiality plays a very important role when we start to 955 01:00:14.079 --> 01:00:18.079 understand how Christ is mediator. What does it mean for 956 01:00:18.199 --> 01:00:22.719 Christ to be mediator? And this is very important for 957 01:00:23.280 --> 01:00:27.440 understanding why consubstantiality double consupstentiality is real. 958 01:00:27.599 --> 01:00:30.360 Yeah, that's why i'd just put that quote in, you know, 959 01:00:30.360 --> 01:00:34.519 from Timothy one media between God and man, right, the God, 960 01:00:34.639 --> 01:00:35.719 man Christ Jesus. 961 01:00:36.599 --> 01:00:42.599 Yeah. So when we look at Saint Cyril's letter to 962 01:00:42.639 --> 01:00:48.079 emper Theodosius, this is a highly relevant letter. I think 963 01:00:48.119 --> 01:00:55.159 it's one of the more neglected writings from Saint Cyril 964 01:00:55.360 --> 01:00:57.800 in the discussion. And I think it's really more neglected 965 01:00:57.880 --> 01:01:02.880 just because a translation of it has only appeared fairly recently. 966 01:01:03.840 --> 01:01:07.840 But I think it's it's it's highly highly relevant. It's 967 01:01:08.239 --> 01:01:14.960 anticipating the Third Ecumenical Council to combat Nestorianism. But what's 968 01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:19.079 really important about this letter is Saint Cyril is distancing 969 01:01:19.159 --> 01:01:24.639 himself from various prior heresies, and in so doing he's 970 01:01:25.039 --> 01:01:29.920 establishing single subject metaphysics. So when we talked about the 971 01:01:29.960 --> 01:01:34.880 metaphysics earlier, what makes a subject, it's very important. This 972 01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:39.679 letter goes to great length to demonstrate in Saint Cyril's 973 01:01:39.760 --> 01:01:44.440 thought he has a single subject Christ in mind. Now, 974 01:01:44.880 --> 01:01:47.599 some of the things that he distances himself from is 975 01:01:47.920 --> 01:01:53.599 dough Cticism or doceticism, theomorphism arianism or Sellianism or pollinarianism, 976 01:01:54.199 --> 01:01:59.320 and then the diophysitism, which is a direct front two 977 01:01:59.639 --> 01:02:02.800 Nesto orientism. I'm not going to go into detail of 978 01:02:02.840 --> 01:02:05.800 these heresies. I'm just giving you an overview of what 979 01:02:05.960 --> 01:02:08.920 to expect if you're going to read that letter. 980 01:02:10.079 --> 01:02:11.360 I highly well. 981 01:02:11.320 --> 01:02:15.639 Note that diophysicism there does not mean nature's It means subjects. 982 01:02:15.639 --> 01:02:17.480 For him to subjects. 983 01:02:17.519 --> 01:02:20.440 Yeah, and also because because later on, of course, we 984 01:02:20.639 --> 01:02:24.960 explicate the diophysite position, in other words, the two nature's position, 985 01:02:25.119 --> 01:02:29.079 not the two subject position. Now. Uh, this this also 986 01:02:29.360 --> 01:02:31.960 is of course what you consistently see presented in the 987 01:02:32.039 --> 01:02:34.960 John mcguck and book that we've recommended for many many years. 988 01:02:35.280 --> 01:02:38.519 Say Cyril of Alexander the Christological controversy. Really, the whole 989 01:02:38.559 --> 01:02:41.239 thesis of the book is mainly just, I should say, 990 01:02:41.239 --> 01:02:44.280 one of many theses is basically just presenting the argument 991 01:02:44.320 --> 01:02:48.639 that Cyril is a single subject Christological proponent. That single 992 01:02:48.679 --> 01:02:52.559 subject is identical to the subject prior to the incarnation, 993 01:02:52.679 --> 01:02:55.280 namely the second person of the Godhead. And so that 994 01:02:55.320 --> 01:02:58.760 means that in the incarnate state, the only subject for 995 01:02:58.880 --> 01:03:03.760 all the incarnate action is the divine person of the word. Yeah. 996 01:03:03.800 --> 01:03:05.960 And I'd also like to add one of the reasons 997 01:03:06.000 --> 01:03:08.880 why I really like Saint Cyril's letter in this regard 998 01:03:09.719 --> 01:03:14.920 is the way he's phrasing things, the way he's explaining things. 999 01:03:15.239 --> 01:03:20.559 It is crushing all of the stupidity coming from the 1000 01:03:20.599 --> 01:03:25.800 Oriental side with their quote mining. It will demonstrate how 1001 01:03:26.320 --> 01:03:31.280 Saint Cyril's understanding of Christ is completely in line with 1002 01:03:31.320 --> 01:03:34.719 the Orthodox position. And when you really take the effort 1003 01:03:34.719 --> 01:03:38.360 to understand what he's saying in his letters, you start 1004 01:03:38.400 --> 01:03:41.039 to see. This is where the cracks start falling for 1005 01:03:41.239 --> 01:03:45.239 the Orientals that they really do not understand Saint Cyril. 1006 01:03:45.639 --> 01:03:46.480 They really do not. 1007 01:03:46.519 --> 01:03:50.960 Understand his terms, They do not understand what his thought is. 1008 01:03:51.599 --> 01:03:53.920 The two letters to six census are also really good 1009 01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:56.239 for showing that after the resurrection. 1010 01:03:57.039 --> 01:04:01.239 Yeah, and his formula for union letters nine, it's always 1011 01:04:01.280 --> 01:04:04.800 gets talked about and there's always a response against it, 1012 01:04:04.840 --> 01:04:07.199 which I don't think it's very convincing. But the main 1013 01:04:07.239 --> 01:04:09.480 point that I want to get across with letter thirty nine, right, 1014 01:04:09.559 --> 01:04:13.320 the formula of reunion he had with Jona Fantioch is. 1015 01:04:14.719 --> 01:04:16.239 As as as you all see. 1016 01:04:16.519 --> 01:04:19.039 Saint Cirrole's main point is that all of the sayings 1017 01:04:19.079 --> 01:04:21.800 of the Devincent humanity are attributed ultimately to the one 1018 01:04:21.800 --> 01:04:24.440 person word of God. That's the main point that he's 1019 01:04:24.480 --> 01:04:27.920 trying to protect. And it's very interesting that he says 1020 01:04:27.960 --> 01:04:31.280 that this is protected if you used to nature's language. 1021 01:04:31.639 --> 01:04:34.119 In letter thirty nine, right, he says this very clearly, 1022 01:04:35.360 --> 01:04:38.199 you know, right, he says, some theologians, you know, they 1023 01:04:38.280 --> 01:04:40.480 refer all the sayings to you know, some you know, 1024 01:04:40.559 --> 01:04:42.559 we refer to all the sayings of Christ to the 1025 01:04:42.639 --> 01:04:45.480 one person, and there are some theologians that refer to 1026 01:04:45.480 --> 01:04:49.039 the sayings of Christ, you know, dividing the sayings. No, 1027 01:04:49.159 --> 01:04:52.719 it's not dividing the natures, but dividing the sayings to 1028 01:04:53.039 --> 01:04:53.960 the two natures. 1029 01:04:54.480 --> 01:04:59.119 So and he has. I think he's learned the Eulogius, 1030 01:04:59.320 --> 01:05:00.760 if I'm remember correctly. 1031 01:05:01.199 --> 01:05:04.480 He defends this, right, he defends saying this, and he says, look, 1032 01:05:04.559 --> 01:05:06.840 you know they're they're actually trying to say the same 1033 01:05:06.920 --> 01:05:10.519 thing as we do. The highest criticism he makes like 1034 01:05:10.719 --> 01:05:13.880 you know, they're sayings are a bit obscure, more difficult 1035 01:05:13.920 --> 01:05:16.880 to understand. But never does he say, oh, yeah, you 1036 01:05:16.960 --> 01:05:19.559 know these people are heretics or anything like that, which 1037 01:05:19.679 --> 01:05:22.559 is what you see you know, monopsized later on, do 1038 01:05:22.719 --> 01:05:25.280 is I accuse this language of being a heretical language 1039 01:05:25.280 --> 01:05:28.360 and seeing curl of Alexandria at his own time accepted it. 1040 01:05:28.920 --> 01:05:30.320 And the main point that I'm trying to make is 1041 01:05:30.360 --> 01:05:33.320 that for Saint Carol, it is consistent to be able 1042 01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:36.960 to speak of one Christ, one divine person of the logos, 1043 01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:39.960 while being able to speak of you know, divine and 1044 01:05:40.079 --> 01:05:44.159 human things in Christ. And this is you know what 1045 01:05:44.280 --> 01:05:49.079 you see trout Saint Curle's writings. You know, he consistently 1046 01:05:49.159 --> 01:05:51.920 applies this these principles, right, this is not just the 1047 01:05:52.000 --> 01:05:55.760 concession that he made like this is actually what monopsized, 1048 01:05:55.880 --> 01:05:59.039 like service police, like he pretended to agree with what 1049 01:05:59.159 --> 01:06:01.480 they said, but he actually didn't agree with anything they said. 1050 01:06:01.519 --> 01:06:03.519 He was just trying to keep peace in the church. 1051 01:06:03.800 --> 01:06:07.400 And this is kind of problematic to say, but we'll 1052 01:06:07.480 --> 01:06:09.960 look at it in the future presentations. But what I'm 1053 01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:11.920 trying to get at here is what you're going to 1054 01:06:11.960 --> 01:06:14.599 see in this letter is again it's important to understand 1055 01:06:14.639 --> 01:06:17.639 Saint Curle and his own terms, the way he speaks, 1056 01:06:17.800 --> 01:06:21.079 and to understand what he's actually trying to say. And 1057 01:06:21.440 --> 01:06:24.039 this is why for us, seeing Curle is a teacher 1058 01:06:24.199 --> 01:06:26.920 of the two natures of Christ. It's not just that, oh, 1059 01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:29.079 he says one nature and that's that's the end of 1060 01:06:29.119 --> 01:06:31.280 the story, or he says two natures and that stated story. 1061 01:06:31.639 --> 01:06:36.880 His writings as a whole is what's preserved and what's explicated, 1062 01:06:36.920 --> 01:06:41.039 what's taught in the ecumenical councils, or rather, what Saint 1063 01:06:41.079 --> 01:06:44.159 Curle is teaching is he's actually teaching the Orthodox faith. 1064 01:06:45.400 --> 01:06:49.119 So it's important to bear this in mind, all right. 1065 01:06:49.480 --> 01:06:53.760 So with that in mind, I'm going to read these 1066 01:06:53.880 --> 01:06:56.119 quotes and I'm going to read them in their entirety 1067 01:06:56.400 --> 01:06:59.000 rather than just talking about them, because I want people 1068 01:06:59.119 --> 01:07:04.800 to actually hear Saint Cyril speaking the way he's portraying 1069 01:07:04.920 --> 01:07:09.239 his christology, so he'll say so. Someone will probably ask 1070 01:07:09.320 --> 01:07:13.079 at this point, to whom did the Holy Virgin give birth? 1071 01:07:14.079 --> 01:07:16.559 Was it to a man or to the Word of God. 1072 01:07:17.400 --> 01:07:18.840 We reply that. 1073 01:07:19.119 --> 01:07:22.639 Question is wholly misguided. It is in default of what 1074 01:07:22.840 --> 01:07:25.679 is right and true. As far as I'm concerned, you 1075 01:07:25.800 --> 01:07:29.679 ought not to allow any division after the union. Nor 1076 01:07:29.840 --> 01:07:33.880 may you reshape a manual into two persons by splitting 1077 01:07:33.960 --> 01:07:37.599 him up individually into a man and God the Word. 1078 01:07:38.800 --> 01:07:41.519 No one should accuse us of having taken an unorthodox 1079 01:07:41.639 --> 01:07:44.639 position here, since this is just what is expressly condemned 1080 01:07:44.719 --> 01:07:48.400 by Holy scripture. There is no way there can be 1081 01:07:48.639 --> 01:07:53.960 any division, especially if it involves talking of quote unquote 1082 01:07:54.039 --> 01:07:58.719 two after the union, or thinking of each separately. It 1083 01:07:58.880 --> 01:08:02.559 is appropriate for one's mind to sense a distinction between 1084 01:08:02.559 --> 01:08:06.519 the natures, after all, human and divine natures are not identical. 1085 01:08:07.199 --> 01:08:10.960 But at the same time as this acknowledgment, the mind 1086 01:08:11.280 --> 01:08:16.159 must also accept the concurrence of the two into a unity. 1087 01:08:17.840 --> 01:08:20.319 So it was as God that he issued from God 1088 01:08:20.399 --> 01:08:23.319 to Father, and as man that he issued from the 1089 01:08:23.439 --> 01:08:27.119 Virgin the Word who shone out from God the Father 1090 01:08:27.479 --> 01:08:30.479 in a manner that can be neither described nor imagined, 1091 01:08:30.960 --> 01:08:33.000 is said to have also been born of a woman, 1092 01:08:33.439 --> 01:08:38.079 descending into humanity and entering into what was not his own, 1093 01:08:39.079 --> 01:08:42.199 not with the aim of remaining thus emptied, but rather 1094 01:08:42.319 --> 01:08:44.520 so that he might be believed to be God and 1095 01:08:44.640 --> 01:08:48.319 appear on earth in human form, not just as if 1096 01:08:48.359 --> 01:08:52.399 he were dwelling inside someone, but by himself, becoming a 1097 01:08:52.640 --> 01:08:57.920 man by nature, while simultaneously preserving his own glory. So 1098 01:08:58.119 --> 01:09:02.479 God's mouthpiece, Paul Come binds these two things into a unity, 1099 01:09:03.159 --> 01:09:07.279 namely the divinity and the humanity, which would otherwise be 1100 01:09:07.520 --> 01:09:10.840 so far from being consubstantial with each other, and which 1101 01:09:10.840 --> 01:09:14.319 are so utterly distinct. And he makes this combination in 1102 01:09:14.399 --> 01:09:17.399 the context of salvation history. And then he demonstrates that 1103 01:09:17.439 --> 01:09:21.439 there is one single Christ out of the two elements, 1104 01:09:22.199 --> 01:09:31.119 one Son, one God. Here we see single subject christology. 1105 01:09:32.600 --> 01:09:37.960 We see that Saint Cyril allows for speaking of two 1106 01:09:38.520 --> 01:09:42.640 after the union. But he's telling you how you must 1107 01:09:42.760 --> 01:09:47.640 understand the speaking of two and what exactly is one. 1108 01:09:49.119 --> 01:09:56.720 This is completely in line with Canon five of the 1109 01:09:56.800 --> 01:10:01.520 Fifth Ecumenical Council. We don't necess necessarily have to express 1110 01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:07.840 our theology in this hippostatic language. But what Saint cyril 1111 01:10:07.920 --> 01:10:13.800 Is writing is exactly what our Christology reflects, and it 1112 01:10:13.960 --> 01:10:23.239 is completely contrary to the Orientals continuing on from the 1113 01:10:23.319 --> 01:10:27.920 same letter. So the Son, who was co eternal with 1114 01:10:28.279 --> 01:10:31.560 the one from whom he issued, and who exists prior 1115 01:10:31.680 --> 01:10:37.399 to every age, descended into human nature, taking up humanity 1116 01:10:37.560 --> 01:10:41.279 to himself, rather than slipping away from being God. And 1117 01:10:41.399 --> 01:10:44.600 hence he may legitimately be thought of as being born 1118 01:10:44.640 --> 01:10:48.880 of David's seed, and of experiencing a wholly new human birth. 1119 01:10:49.720 --> 01:10:52.920 What he took up into himself was not foreign to him, 1120 01:10:53.319 --> 01:10:56.720 but is truly his very own. It is therefore to 1121 01:10:56.760 --> 01:11:00.079 be reckoned as being one with him, just as one 1122 01:11:00.279 --> 01:11:03.199 might naturally think of how a person is constituted a 1123 01:11:03.319 --> 01:11:07.800 person whose nature is woven from unlike parts, namely soul 1124 01:11:07.880 --> 01:11:11.119 and body, but the combined person is still reckoned as 1125 01:11:11.279 --> 01:11:17.119 a single individual. One sometimes names an entire animal on 1126 01:11:17.199 --> 01:11:19.760 the basis of just its physical body, but at the 1127 01:11:19.840 --> 01:11:22.680 other times the combined being is meant when the soul 1128 01:11:22.800 --> 01:11:26.399 is explicitly mentioned. We ought to accept just the same 1129 01:11:26.479 --> 01:11:30.039 way of talking about Christ, for there is only one 1130 01:11:30.239 --> 01:11:35.199 son and one Lord Jesus Christ, both before his taking 1131 01:11:35.319 --> 01:11:41.199 flesh and when he appeared as a man. So this 1132 01:11:41.439 --> 01:11:45.199 here is important because now he's what Saint Cyril is 1133 01:11:45.279 --> 01:11:48.000 doing is he's elaborating what he said prior to this 1134 01:11:48.520 --> 01:11:52.880 and really enforce, reiterating and enforcing the point that we're 1135 01:11:52.960 --> 01:11:58.560 talking about one ontology, and he's not saying that you 1136 01:11:58.760 --> 01:12:04.760 can have a soul and a body come together and 1137 01:12:04.960 --> 01:12:08.359 then you get a result. That's not what Christ is, 1138 01:12:08.600 --> 01:12:12.000 the one soul and one body coming together. You don't 1139 01:12:12.199 --> 01:12:16.079 have the person without the soul without the body. It's 1140 01:12:16.239 --> 01:12:22.000 talking about. These are fundamental to what makes the ontology 1141 01:12:22.399 --> 01:12:25.439 in the first place, and that is the unity that 1142 01:12:25.600 --> 01:12:32.159 Christ is that he possesses. It's ontologically. Christ is one, 1143 01:12:32.520 --> 01:12:38.119 He is divine who in fleshes I still have just 1144 01:12:38.159 --> 01:12:41.439 a couple more quotes here, but I'm sure there will 1145 01:12:41.520 --> 01:12:45.800 be people who ask who is Jesus Christ really? Is 1146 01:12:46.000 --> 01:12:48.560 he a man born of a woman, or is he 1147 01:12:48.720 --> 01:12:52.600 God's Word? It is a waste of effort even to 1148 01:12:52.680 --> 01:12:57.279 bother repudiating such stuff and nonsense. I would say, though, 1149 01:12:57.439 --> 01:13:00.319 that splitting man and word into two separates the arts 1150 01:13:00.479 --> 01:13:05.279 is dangerous and will cause damage. It is excluded by souteriology, 1151 01:13:05.720 --> 01:13:09.600 while the Holy scriptures pronounced that Christ is one. I 1152 01:13:09.640 --> 01:13:13.640 would myself assert that neither God's word, while separate from 1153 01:13:13.680 --> 01:13:17.359 the humanity, nor the temple born of a woman, when 1154 01:13:17.439 --> 01:13:20.760 not united to the Word, can be called quote unquote 1155 01:13:20.840 --> 01:13:25.039 Jesus Christ. For what we think of as Christ is 1156 01:13:25.399 --> 01:13:29.560 God's Word, after it has been ineffably brought together with 1157 01:13:29.760 --> 01:13:34.640 the humanity in accordance with the Saving Union. He is 1158 01:13:34.760 --> 01:13:38.600 above humanity, since he is by nature God and Son. 1159 01:13:39.039 --> 01:13:41.239 But at the same time, the fact that he saw 1160 01:13:41.359 --> 01:13:44.000 fit to bring himself down to the human level does 1161 01:13:44.119 --> 01:13:48.439 him no dishonor. At one time he said, whoever has 1162 01:13:48.479 --> 01:13:51.640 seen me has seen the Father. I and the Father 1163 01:13:51.840 --> 01:13:55.239 are one, but then at another that the Father is 1164 01:13:55.279 --> 01:13:58.720 greater than I. It was for humanity's sake that he 1165 01:13:59.000 --> 01:14:02.960 called himself in fear, even though he was not actually 1166 01:14:03.239 --> 01:14:06.000 lesser than the Father, since he is the same in 1167 01:14:06.199 --> 01:14:11.279 terms of substance and in every way his equal. And 1168 01:14:11.359 --> 01:14:14.800 then the last part from the letter, so then the 1169 01:14:15.039 --> 01:14:22.000 same individual is at once both the only begotten and 1170 01:14:22.199 --> 01:14:26.000 the firstborn. He is the former in so far as 1171 01:14:26.079 --> 01:14:28.840 he is God, and he is the firstborn in so 1172 01:14:28.920 --> 01:14:31.239 far as he is one of us. In the way 1173 01:14:31.439 --> 01:14:36.239 the Saving Union requires it one among many brothers, a man. 1174 01:14:37.319 --> 01:14:40.239 The point of this was that we two, both in 1175 01:14:40.479 --> 01:14:45.039 Him and through Him naturally and also by grace, might 1176 01:14:45.199 --> 01:14:48.800 become God's children. So just the side comment this is 1177 01:14:48.920 --> 01:14:54.279 now getting into discussing this idea that Christ is a mediator. 1178 01:14:55.199 --> 01:15:00.319 We become so naturally because we exist in Him and 1179 01:15:00.600 --> 01:15:03.760 in Him alone, whereas we become so through Him by 1180 01:15:03.840 --> 01:15:07.399 the spirit by participating in his grace. Just as the 1181 01:15:07.439 --> 01:15:11.640 condition of being the only begotten, which belongs especially to Christ, 1182 01:15:12.119 --> 01:15:15.560 became a property of his humanity when the latter was 1183 01:15:15.680 --> 01:15:19.039 united to the Word, a conjunction that occurred in accordance 1184 01:15:19.119 --> 01:15:22.239 with the plan of salvation. So also, in turn to 1185 01:15:22.359 --> 01:15:26.000 the conditions of being quote unquote one among many brothers 1186 01:15:26.560 --> 01:15:29.960 and of being the firstborn, become properties of the Word 1187 01:15:30.359 --> 01:15:33.840 after being united to the flesh. Because his being God 1188 01:15:34.239 --> 01:15:38.920 and his eternal changelessness were firmly established, he remained just 1189 01:15:39.199 --> 01:15:43.439 what he was even when he became a man who 1190 01:15:43.640 --> 01:15:48.199 was crowned with the highest glory and transcendence. This is 1191 01:15:48.319 --> 01:15:51.760 why the most sacred and blessed army of heavenly spirits 1192 01:15:52.520 --> 01:15:56.800 has been commanded to worship Him, just as we do 1193 01:16:00.119 --> 01:16:03.039 where in any of this do you hear speaking of 1194 01:16:03.319 --> 01:16:11.359 hypostass But you hear quite clearly in explanatory terms, single 1195 01:16:12.000 --> 01:16:18.039 subject christology that is completely reflected when we as Orthodox 1196 01:16:18.159 --> 01:16:23.000 say that Christ is divine only who has become and fleshed. 1197 01:16:23.239 --> 01:16:26.439 We don't have a mixing of hypostasis or any of 1198 01:16:27.319 --> 01:16:30.039 that sort. I don't know if any if you guys 1199 01:16:30.079 --> 01:16:34.079 want to contribute to that. It's a bit of a 1200 01:16:34.159 --> 01:16:34.760 lengthy quote. 1201 01:16:42.439 --> 01:16:43.840 I think you can. I think you can. 1202 01:16:44.800 --> 01:16:48.359 I mean, I guess, like I think this is kind 1203 01:16:48.359 --> 01:16:53.520 of just a very like a simple breakdown of Saint 1204 01:16:53.560 --> 01:16:57.439 Curl's Christology. And this is pretty much consistent with what 1205 01:16:57.560 --> 01:17:00.640 you see with throughout the rest of his work. Just 1206 01:17:00.800 --> 01:17:03.039 the main difference being like in certain different works he 1207 01:17:03.119 --> 01:17:04.800 explains on some of the things that he talks about 1208 01:17:05.560 --> 01:17:11.000 related to your manner, right, So that's the main thing 1209 01:17:11.079 --> 01:17:12.319 that I'd want to point out. 1210 01:17:12.359 --> 01:17:13.920 I guess the one. 1211 01:17:13.880 --> 01:17:18.600 Takeaway that one can make is that for him, nature 1212 01:17:18.680 --> 01:17:23.079 or substance is very real right in the person's and 1213 01:17:23.359 --> 01:17:28.159 between the persons, right, the union of between a human 1214 01:17:28.239 --> 01:17:30.760 person and another human person in terms of substance is 1215 01:17:30.800 --> 01:17:34.560 not just kind of in saying but it's very real, 1216 01:17:34.680 --> 01:17:38.760 it's very fundamental, and the basis of salvation is being 1217 01:17:38.800 --> 01:17:45.000 able to confess that Christ right, that Christ's divinity acting 1218 01:17:45.960 --> 01:17:49.079 is acting in his humanity, and so we being part 1219 01:17:49.119 --> 01:17:52.079 of his humanity, and we becoming a real substantial part 1220 01:17:52.119 --> 01:17:56.159 of his humanity by becoming members of his Church, which 1221 01:17:56.239 --> 01:18:01.319 is his body, are able to ex experience this right. 1222 01:18:01.439 --> 01:18:05.520 This is the basis of right salvation, experiencial theology in 1223 01:18:05.520 --> 01:18:06.319 the Orthodock's faith. 1224 01:18:06.880 --> 01:18:08.199 So there's that aspect as well. 1225 01:18:08.239 --> 01:18:11.680 It's important in terms of Christology because again I kind 1226 01:18:11.720 --> 01:18:13.560 of hinted at it, but what you see, if it's 1227 01:18:13.600 --> 01:18:18.760 service Fantich, for example, is a very kind of it's 1228 01:18:18.880 --> 01:18:21.319 kind of a monominalist account of universals if you ask me, 1229 01:18:21.439 --> 01:18:24.199 because the universe is just a collection of all particulars 1230 01:18:24.479 --> 01:18:27.000 and that's all it is. Right, It's not just that 1231 01:18:28.039 --> 01:18:30.880 all particulars are in the universes, but no, the universe 1232 01:18:31.000 --> 01:18:35.600 is just that, and so we can kind of contrast 1233 01:18:35.680 --> 01:18:36.439 that with this as well. 1234 01:18:38.079 --> 01:18:40.520 Yeah, and so then this also plays into this whole 1235 01:18:40.680 --> 01:18:44.920 understanding of a hypostatic union, where we see this differentiation 1236 01:18:45.159 --> 01:18:49.520 between ourselves as Orthodox and on the other hand, the Orientals. 1237 01:18:49.720 --> 01:18:54.039 So for us, this hypostatic union really meaning that we're 1238 01:18:54.199 --> 01:19:01.000 not separating Christ's divine in human existences, whereas the Orientals 1239 01:19:01.199 --> 01:19:05.840 when they're talking about hypostatic union and the logos and fleshing, 1240 01:19:06.199 --> 01:19:10.920 what they're talking about is not that Christ assumes another 1241 01:19:11.000 --> 01:19:14.359 mode of existence per se, but really that he assumes 1242 01:19:14.479 --> 01:19:20.439 another human hypostasis, sorry, assumes a human hypostasis into his 1243 01:19:20.680 --> 01:19:23.880 mode of existence upon in fleshing and so that you 1244 01:19:24.159 --> 01:19:27.680 see this substantial change. But for us, there is no 1245 01:19:27.760 --> 01:19:31.439 substantive change in Christ. He just comes in his incarnation 1246 01:19:31.560 --> 01:19:35.760 to exist in a separate mode or not a separate 1247 01:19:35.800 --> 01:19:39.680 modes or an additional mode in addition to being God 1248 01:19:40.279 --> 01:19:45.600 as well as a human. The prosopic union. So now 1249 01:19:45.960 --> 01:19:50.960 though we can understand the prosopic union in the Orthodox sense, 1250 01:19:53.520 --> 01:19:58.359 the prosopic union becomes relevant in the context of Nestorianism 1251 01:19:58.760 --> 01:20:06.079 because by separating the prosopic ontology from the hypostatic ontology, 1252 01:20:06.960 --> 01:20:10.760 the Nestorians, the Church of the East, they deny a 1253 01:20:10.840 --> 01:20:17.039 hypostatic union, but they profess a prosopic union. And this 1254 01:20:17.359 --> 01:20:22.079 is understood as a voluntary or an impassable unit union 1255 01:20:22.600 --> 01:20:26.720 because passibility cannot become part of the divine nature of 1256 01:20:26.880 --> 01:20:36.039 the logos. And so in Nestorius's thought, prosopon and will 1257 01:20:36.479 --> 01:20:40.840 are used synonymously. So to have the procipone of God 1258 01:20:41.439 --> 01:20:47.760 it means to will what God wills. To have the 1259 01:20:47.840 --> 01:20:52.640 prospone of God means to act as God acts revelation 1260 01:20:52.840 --> 01:20:55.840 of God to the world. Every nature must have a 1261 01:20:55.920 --> 01:20:59.319 prosopone which arises out of it as its natural expression, 1262 01:20:59.479 --> 01:21:04.520 which unquote reveals the nature or Usiah. And so the 1263 01:21:04.800 --> 01:21:08.880 union in Christ is to utilize the flesh in order 1264 01:21:09.039 --> 01:21:13.680 to express the divine and this expression is realized in 1265 01:21:13.840 --> 01:21:18.920 the quote unquote one person of Christ. So this is 1266 01:21:19.039 --> 01:21:23.319 now we're unfolding the metaphysics of the Nestorian position to 1267 01:21:23.560 --> 01:21:28.359 really understand what they mean by one person or what 1268 01:21:28.520 --> 01:21:32.439 they mean person in general. And you will now see 1269 01:21:32.640 --> 01:21:37.359 that it's going to be drastically different to the Cappadocian understanding. 1270 01:21:39.479 --> 01:21:41.840 This was something that I posted as a community post 1271 01:21:42.199 --> 01:21:46.920 and made the rounds and made the Oriental zol kind 1272 01:21:47.000 --> 01:21:53.520 of I don't know, have a melt down in pictorial representation. 1273 01:21:55.079 --> 01:22:01.199 If you have a human hypostatic component to Christ, then 1274 01:22:02.520 --> 01:22:05.359 while this can be thought of as a meme, it 1275 01:22:05.560 --> 01:22:11.800 really does accurately represent what is happening ontologically the Church 1276 01:22:11.880 --> 01:22:16.600 of the East. Having two subjects means that you really 1277 01:22:17.039 --> 01:22:21.960 do have two different centers that can be attributed to 1278 01:22:22.279 --> 01:22:27.119 Christ's activities. And this is very prominent when you read 1279 01:22:27.680 --> 01:22:32.520 somebody like Theodore of Mopsuestia in his commentaries, where he 1280 01:22:32.800 --> 01:22:37.760 will attribute divine activity specifically to the Logos and he 1281 01:22:37.800 --> 01:22:43.000 will attribute human activity specifically to the human component of Christ. 1282 01:22:43.760 --> 01:22:49.560 So there is a distinction between the activities of Christ 1283 01:22:50.199 --> 01:22:54.119 with the Orientals. With this tertian quid. You speak of Christ, 1284 01:22:54.399 --> 01:22:59.279 but now it becomes some kind of a combination of 1285 01:22:59.520 --> 01:23:03.920 the divine no human that acts. And that's kind of 1286 01:23:04.000 --> 01:23:06.880 like you can see in the in the picture, a 1287 01:23:07.039 --> 01:23:10.960 fair representation of what their metaphysics entails. Because if they 1288 01:23:11.079 --> 01:23:14.279 say you can only have one nay, that Christ is 1289 01:23:14.520 --> 01:23:18.840 in one nature, well, if you're talking about one nature, 1290 01:23:19.159 --> 01:23:21.560 it has to it can't be the divine only, it 1291 01:23:21.640 --> 01:23:24.840 can't be the human only. It is some tertian quid. 1292 01:23:25.039 --> 01:23:29.000 You cannot get around that orthodoxy if we speak of 1293 01:23:29.119 --> 01:23:30.439 Christ the way he is. 1294 01:23:34.319 --> 01:23:34.439 Here. 1295 01:23:35.399 --> 01:23:38.960 So that kind of wraps up Christology, just an overview 1296 01:23:39.000 --> 01:23:43.079 of Christology and now we're going to go into soteriology, 1297 01:23:44.239 --> 01:23:51.640 and this is now very relevant because soteriology is discussing salvation. 1298 01:23:52.880 --> 01:23:57.119 It's talking about what is the whole purpose of Christ incarnating, 1299 01:23:57.520 --> 01:24:08.279 how does the incarnation be effectively selvific. And so in general, 1300 01:24:08.920 --> 01:24:15.640 we can divide the positions between the Orthodox, the Orientals, 1301 01:24:15.760 --> 01:24:21.840 and the Nestorians by hypostatic union language versus prosopic union language. 1302 01:24:23.520 --> 01:24:27.800 Though we the Orthodox can also talk about a prosopic union, 1303 01:24:27.960 --> 01:24:29.760 it's going to be in the same sense as a 1304 01:24:29.840 --> 01:24:33.800 hypostatic union. But what we have at play here is 1305 01:24:34.319 --> 01:24:39.159 when we look at the hypostatic union for the Orthodox position, 1306 01:24:40.079 --> 01:24:44.359 we are looking at Christ being a subject, and so 1307 01:24:44.680 --> 01:24:50.199 in this Christ has one hypostasis that exists in two 1308 01:24:50.439 --> 01:24:57.840 modes simultaneously, and the logos unites within himself to natures 1309 01:24:58.039 --> 01:25:04.239 because he exists in those to natures. But the metaphysical 1310 01:25:04.399 --> 01:25:09.199 system at play here is that a single hypostasis can 1311 01:25:09.479 --> 01:25:14.119 an hypostatize multiple natures. And that's the metaphysical move that 1312 01:25:14.279 --> 01:25:19.760 we as Orthodox make that differentiates us from the Orientals 1313 01:25:20.319 --> 01:25:24.720 and from the Nestorians. And then it's also important to 1314 01:25:24.840 --> 01:25:29.239 understand that in our system there are two wills in Christ, 1315 01:25:29.720 --> 01:25:33.720 and that will is a property of nature, it's not 1316 01:25:33.880 --> 01:25:37.199 a property of the hypostasis. And this is going to 1317 01:25:37.199 --> 01:25:41.439 be important in future slides when we get into discussing 1318 01:25:41.560 --> 01:25:45.560 will in a little bit more detail. For the Orientals, 1319 01:25:46.760 --> 01:25:50.319 the hypostatic union is that Christ is kind of both 1320 01:25:50.399 --> 01:25:53.640 a subject and an object kind of at the same time. 1321 01:25:54.560 --> 01:25:58.359 So essentially what you have is the hypostasis of the 1322 01:25:58.520 --> 01:26:04.199 logos assuming into itself a nonsense, self subsistent human hypostasis, 1323 01:26:04.680 --> 01:26:08.079 and that gives you that tertion quid hypostasis of Christ, 1324 01:26:08.239 --> 01:26:12.680 because you can only talk of one hypostasis after the incarnation, 1325 01:26:14.119 --> 01:26:20.520 and so this individuated human hypostasis cannot exist apart from Him. 1326 01:26:21.680 --> 01:26:26.359 And the metaphysical move that we deny that the Orientals 1327 01:26:26.600 --> 01:26:29.119 and the Church of the East make is that a 1328 01:26:29.359 --> 01:26:32.920 nature can only ever be individuated by a hypostasis of 1329 01:26:33.039 --> 01:26:36.760 its corresponding kind. So if you're going to talk about 1330 01:26:37.319 --> 01:26:41.760 Christ having a human nature or having a human mode 1331 01:26:41.800 --> 01:26:48.199 of existence, then there must be a human hypostasis. You 1332 01:26:48.279 --> 01:26:51.880 cannot avoid it. That's the metaphysical constraint that they're imposing. 1333 01:26:52.720 --> 01:26:58.199 The Orientals are just saying that this human hypostatic existence 1334 01:26:58.520 --> 01:27:03.079 cannot be a part from the logos. It is always 1335 01:27:03.439 --> 01:27:06.039 a part of the logos, and the logos is a 1336 01:27:06.079 --> 01:27:11.640 subject of it. For them, will Christ has only one will, 1337 01:27:12.720 --> 01:27:17.199 and that will is a property of the hypostasis. And 1338 01:27:17.359 --> 01:27:21.560 this is really important because in this particular case, this 1339 01:27:21.760 --> 01:27:25.520 is going to get the Orientals into a tritheistic problem, 1340 01:27:26.000 --> 01:27:28.560 because for them to try and be consistent in their 1341 01:27:28.640 --> 01:27:33.600 triadology with their Christology is going to necessitate that you 1342 01:27:33.880 --> 01:27:37.920 have basically three wills in the Godhead for Father, Son, 1343 01:27:37.960 --> 01:27:41.520 and Holy Spirit. If the will is a property of hypostasis. 1344 01:27:43.600 --> 01:27:48.800 With regards to the Nestorians who take the prospic union, 1345 01:27:49.359 --> 01:27:55.119 Christ is an object. So you have two hypostases that 1346 01:27:55.359 --> 01:28:02.239 come together to give you Christ. Christ doesn't exist before 1347 01:28:02.720 --> 01:28:10.720 the incarnation, and you have the human hypostasis being self subsistent. 1348 01:28:11.439 --> 01:28:12.399 There is no. 1349 01:28:14.079 --> 01:28:18.840 Non self subsistence to it in a metaphysical sense. What 1350 01:28:18.920 --> 01:28:23.000 they're saying is, even though it is inseparable from the logos, 1351 01:28:23.640 --> 01:28:29.520 it is still in its metaphysical understanding ontologically self subsistent. 1352 01:28:30.600 --> 01:28:34.840 So then what ends up happening here is the union 1353 01:28:35.159 --> 01:28:41.399 that is brought about in Christ between these hypostasis or 1354 01:28:41.479 --> 01:28:46.680 krume is the Logos is giving his divine will to Jesus. 1355 01:28:49.880 --> 01:28:57.680 So that means that there isn't any kind of ontology 1356 01:28:58.319 --> 01:29:01.399 where the union is happening to hypostatic level. In terms 1357 01:29:01.439 --> 01:29:05.640 of the individuation, it's happening merely through some kind of 1358 01:29:05.680 --> 01:29:11.640 a giftable property. And again they make the same metaphysical 1359 01:29:11.760 --> 01:29:16.680 move as the Orientals to say that a nature is 1360 01:29:16.800 --> 01:29:21.479 only ever individuated by a hypostasis of its corresponding kind. 1361 01:29:22.079 --> 01:29:26.119 So the kruma kiana, the knuma individual individuates a kiana 1362 01:29:26.560 --> 01:29:31.840 according to kind. The divine Logos enters into a voluntary 1363 01:29:31.920 --> 01:29:37.279 conjunction with the human Jesus. And their position is that 1364 01:29:37.520 --> 01:29:41.720 there is only one will. It's a confluence of the 1365 01:29:41.840 --> 01:29:46.479 divine and human wills. So the human will is in 1366 01:29:46.840 --> 01:29:50.880 effect the divine will. I will show you from the 1367 01:29:51.239 --> 01:29:55.680 Nestorian writings where they profess one will. And though you 1368 01:29:55.800 --> 01:29:59.880 will have Nestorians who will say that no, they do 1369 01:30:00.000 --> 01:30:05.399 you agree that Christ has two wills, but that in 1370 01:30:05.600 --> 01:30:10.800 effect what is expressed is one will. This is going 1371 01:30:10.880 --> 01:30:14.720 to become very problematic for them because then that is 1372 01:30:14.800 --> 01:30:17.640 an admission to full blown Nestorianism. And I'm going to 1373 01:30:17.680 --> 01:30:22.560 show you why that is the case. But now let's 1374 01:30:22.640 --> 01:30:27.279 look at what are some things that Nestorius himself says, 1375 01:30:27.760 --> 01:30:31.079 and Thestorius is venerated in the Church of the East. 1376 01:30:32.680 --> 01:30:35.680 The suddeness spoken of in the Divine Scriptures in a 1377 01:30:35.760 --> 01:30:39.279 double manner in hypostasis, as relating to God the Word, 1378 01:30:39.840 --> 01:30:42.600 and in honor, as relating to him who was taken. 1379 01:30:43.079 --> 01:30:45.920 For in the honor of the union which he has 1380 01:30:46.159 --> 01:30:49.600 with God the Word, he is called son. He is 1381 01:30:49.760 --> 01:30:54.159 not son because of himself, nor in himself, nor through grace, 1382 01:30:54.319 --> 01:30:57.479 like those who are baptized, these being sons through grace. 1383 01:30:58.279 --> 01:31:00.600 The sonship therefore of the god Head and of the 1384 01:31:00.720 --> 01:31:04.640 manhood is not one in a composition of one hypostasis, 1385 01:31:05.079 --> 01:31:08.600 but in honor. If we say that, as in the 1386 01:31:08.680 --> 01:31:12.039 composition of a hypostasis, is there the form of a 1387 01:31:12.159 --> 01:31:16.000 servant who was taken and of him who takes united together, 1388 01:31:16.720 --> 01:31:19.000 he who was taken would be found to be derived 1389 01:31:19.079 --> 01:31:22.159 from the Father. If it is not by union or 1390 01:31:22.199 --> 01:31:30.039 by conjunction that he is called son. Okay, now, let's 1391 01:31:30.159 --> 01:31:38.000 contrast that to how we understand one person. When Saint 1392 01:31:38.159 --> 01:31:41.399 Justinian writes of one person and also of the fifty 1393 01:31:41.560 --> 01:31:45.960 humenical council. Nor do we believe that the divine logos 1394 01:31:46.039 --> 01:31:49.199 in Christ are different persons. But we confess that the 1395 01:31:49.279 --> 01:31:52.760 Lord Jesus Christ and the divine Logos are one and 1396 01:31:53.439 --> 01:31:57.239 the same. And so although we say there are two 1397 01:31:57.359 --> 01:32:00.199 different natures in one and the same only be God 1398 01:32:00.279 --> 01:32:03.600 and Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, we do 1399 01:32:03.920 --> 01:32:08.920 not propose two sons, or hypostasis or prosopa. And at 1400 01:32:09.000 --> 01:32:13.520 the same time we confess his one hypostasis despising the 1401 01:32:13.640 --> 01:32:18.079 division of Nestorius, and then the other one from the fifth. 1402 01:32:18.119 --> 01:32:20.880 A communical council is one that I already talked about. 1403 01:32:21.600 --> 01:32:26.520 But this is again really important because Rome would agree 1404 01:32:26.680 --> 01:32:30.319 with Saint Justinian. Saint Justinian is a saint under Rome, 1405 01:32:30.680 --> 01:32:34.000 they would agree with his Christology. And when you look 1406 01:32:34.079 --> 01:32:39.880 at what Nestorius himself says and what we hold to 1407 01:32:39.960 --> 01:32:47.199 a ar theology, they are irreconcilable. They're one hundred percent irreconcilable. 1408 01:32:49.079 --> 01:32:52.199 So now where do we get that Christ is a mediator? 1409 01:32:53.279 --> 01:32:57.399 So in the Orthodox position, Christ is consubstantial with the 1410 01:32:57.479 --> 01:33:01.359 Father and his divinity. Christ is consubstantial with us in 1411 01:33:01.439 --> 01:33:05.199 his humanity. So Christ is the mediator between us and 1412 01:33:05.319 --> 01:33:08.600 the Father because he is perfectly consubstantial with both the 1413 01:33:08.680 --> 01:33:13.640 Father and us. So we see here that Christ incarnating 1414 01:33:14.119 --> 01:33:19.800 is salvific. But for the Orientals, well, you don't have 1415 01:33:19.920 --> 01:33:24.199 consubstantiality with the Father, you don't have consubstantiality with us, 1416 01:33:25.279 --> 01:33:29.279 and so you can't have Christ being a mediator if 1417 01:33:29.359 --> 01:33:36.039 he is some unique tertium quid. So Christ incarnating is 1418 01:33:36.239 --> 01:33:41.159 not sealvific. There's no metaphysics to explain why Christ incarnating 1419 01:33:41.319 --> 01:33:46.119 would be salvific if he's not consubstantial to us. And 1420 01:33:46.199 --> 01:33:50.560 in the Church of the East a historian position, Christ 1421 01:33:51.000 --> 01:33:55.000 is not consubstantial with the Father. The logos in Christ 1422 01:33:55.479 --> 01:33:59.640 is what's consubstantial or who is consistential with the Father. Likewise, 1423 01:33:59.720 --> 01:34:04.199 Christ is not consubstantial to us. Only Jesus or the 1424 01:34:04.319 --> 01:34:09.439 human component in Christ, is consubstantial with us. So then 1425 01:34:09.560 --> 01:34:12.479 Christ cannot be the mediator between us and the Father 1426 01:34:12.840 --> 01:34:16.920 because he has no real ontological. 1427 01:34:16.520 --> 01:34:20.319 I'd like to interject here because it's also important to 1428 01:34:20.399 --> 01:34:23.520 understand that the essence energy distinction is crucial at this 1429 01:34:23.640 --> 01:34:27.279 point to understand the metaphysics as you're speaking of by 1430 01:34:27.399 --> 01:34:30.399 which we are deified, and that deification is first of 1431 01:34:30.439 --> 01:34:35.439 all rooted in the glories, graces, and immortality, et cetera, 1432 01:34:35.640 --> 01:34:38.600 that the divine person of the word communicates to the 1433 01:34:38.680 --> 01:34:41.760 human nature that he assumed. This is pretty consistent throughout 1434 01:34:41.760 --> 01:34:44.279 the Church Fathers, but it really gets explicated especially in 1435 01:34:44.359 --> 01:34:49.159 John Damascus in book three about chapter fifteen onwards, where 1436 01:34:49.199 --> 01:34:52.199 he talks about the energies in Christ. It's restated at 1437 01:34:52.720 --> 01:34:55.119 the six Ecumenical Council where it says that the human 1438 01:34:55.199 --> 01:34:58.279 nature that he assumed he fully deified. How does this 1439 01:34:58.399 --> 01:35:01.479 deification occur? Well, two Letters to six Census and many 1440 01:35:01.520 --> 01:35:06.640 other texts of Saint Cyril, as David mentioned earlier, talk 1441 01:35:06.680 --> 01:35:10.279 about the uncreated energy in Christ deifying the human nature 1442 01:35:10.319 --> 01:35:12.720 that he assumed. So you have to keep in mind 1443 01:35:12.800 --> 01:35:16.840 that it is first of all rooted in this hypostatic 1444 01:35:16.960 --> 01:35:19.960 union as we're talking about. But what that hyposthetic union 1445 01:35:20.000 --> 01:35:24.000 affects is a synergy and a deification of the human 1446 01:35:24.119 --> 01:35:27.800 nature at the level of natures. So you understand that 1447 01:35:28.119 --> 01:35:30.960 it is a real raising of the human nature, a 1448 01:35:31.119 --> 01:35:34.000 real union. Otherwise there wouldn't there would not be a 1449 01:35:34.039 --> 01:35:37.319 real deification were it not a real union. And this 1450 01:35:37.479 --> 01:35:40.319 is so crucial to understand, not just for Christology, but 1451 01:35:40.439 --> 01:35:44.000 also for soteriology. So I know we're not specifically on 1452 01:35:44.079 --> 01:35:46.520 the point of the energies yet, but the two energies, 1453 01:35:46.680 --> 01:35:50.439 which is a necessary corollary of the two wills doctrine 1454 01:35:50.520 --> 01:35:57.359 of diophysitism, right, is bound up with the deification of 1455 01:35:57.399 --> 01:36:00.720 the human nature by the uncreated in energies of Christ, 1456 01:36:00.920 --> 01:36:03.520 not by the divine essence of Christ, but by the 1457 01:36:03.560 --> 01:36:09.520 divine energies of Christ, interpenetrating and fully suffusing the human 1458 01:36:09.640 --> 01:36:15.760 nature without destroying, without diminution, without division, without any destruction 1459 01:36:16.079 --> 01:36:18.399 to the properties of those natures. So even though the 1460 01:36:18.439 --> 01:36:22.159 human nature gets deified, and that's the root of our steriology, 1461 01:36:22.279 --> 01:36:25.920 it never ceases to create to retain his created properties, 1462 01:36:26.159 --> 01:36:28.079 so it never sees as being a creature, but it's 1463 01:36:28.119 --> 01:36:30.840 a deified creature. And again this is the two Letters 1464 01:36:30.920 --> 01:36:34.000 of Cerial to six Census, where he specifically talks about 1465 01:36:34.279 --> 01:36:37.640 even after the Resurrection, when Christ was no longer susceptible 1466 01:36:37.680 --> 01:36:40.960 to the blameless passions, right, he could still eat because 1467 01:36:40.960 --> 01:36:44.239 he willed to, even though he has this transfigured flesh. 1468 01:36:44.680 --> 01:36:47.560 And Cyril says that that transfigured flesh comes about not 1469 01:36:47.800 --> 01:36:50.600 by the divine essence communicating anything to the humanity, but 1470 01:36:50.760 --> 01:36:53.960 by the uncreated energies communicating to the humanity in Christ 1471 01:36:54.560 --> 01:36:57.479 that destroys Roman Catholicism and Tomism. 1472 01:36:57.680 --> 01:37:01.800 By the way, another point that I also want to 1473 01:37:01.840 --> 01:37:09.640 make in addition is, look, you know Orientals and the historians, 1474 01:37:09.680 --> 01:37:12.840 they can say, and sometimes you know, their figures do say, 1475 01:37:12.880 --> 01:37:15.520 you know, Christ is constantial with the Father, Christ consubstantial 1476 01:37:15.600 --> 01:37:18.760 with us. But it's it's similar to how a Poulinarius 1477 01:37:18.760 --> 01:37:21.600 will say, right, Paulinaries will say Christ is doubly consubstantial. 1478 01:37:21.720 --> 01:37:24.359 But what they mean by consubstantial, for example, in this 1479 01:37:24.520 --> 01:37:27.279 case is Christ has a human body, because they think 1480 01:37:27.319 --> 01:37:29.880 the soul is the human you know, is the person 1481 01:37:29.960 --> 01:37:33.920 that is the human person. So it's important, Okay, what 1482 01:37:34.000 --> 01:37:36.119 do we mean by consubstantial and this is the question 1483 01:37:36.239 --> 01:37:37.600 that we should be asking ourselves. 1484 01:37:37.640 --> 01:37:43.319 Okay, the soul is the person a Pollinarius, Oh yeah, okay, yeah, 1485 01:37:43.319 --> 01:37:44.119 exactly right. 1486 01:37:44.319 --> 01:37:47.359 Yeah, So like that's what he means that Christ is 1487 01:37:47.600 --> 01:37:51.039 consubstantial with us. When he says that, what he means 1488 01:37:51.159 --> 01:37:54.039 is he's not actually fully consubstantial, He's just consubstantial with 1489 01:37:54.119 --> 01:37:54.840 the human body. 1490 01:37:55.359 --> 01:37:57.039 That's that's basically all that he's trying to say. 1491 01:37:57.319 --> 01:38:00.560 When we say this, we're saying, and this is the 1492 01:38:00.640 --> 01:38:02.560 question that we must ask, what do we actually mean 1493 01:38:02.640 --> 01:38:05.880 by consubstantial? What does this term actually mean? What it 1494 01:38:06.000 --> 01:38:10.119 means is that there's something real that is in Christ 1495 01:38:10.560 --> 01:38:15.239 that we share as well, namely humanity. It's not just 1496 01:38:15.359 --> 01:38:17.479 that Christ is a body and the soul. We have 1497 01:38:17.560 --> 01:38:19.039 a different kind of a body and the soul, and 1498 01:38:19.159 --> 01:38:21.479 we you know, we use the same terminology, and they're 1499 01:38:21.640 --> 01:38:23.960 very similar, They're very close. And that's why, No, there 1500 01:38:24.079 --> 01:38:30.319 is a real ontological similarity with Christ's humanity and or humanity, 1501 01:38:30.399 --> 01:38:34.000 namely that or nature is the same. It's it's identical. 1502 01:38:34.399 --> 01:38:38.119 And this identical nature is something again, as I said, 1503 01:38:38.239 --> 01:38:42.840 it's a real ontological reality. This is why Christ's activities 1504 01:38:42.920 --> 01:38:44.560 in his humanity affects us. 1505 01:38:45.199 --> 01:38:47.600 And you can say that these effects. 1506 01:38:47.399 --> 01:38:51.359 Are actualized in a solvage way once that person joins 1507 01:38:51.359 --> 01:38:54.039 the Orthodox Church, right, once that person is baptized, Once 1508 01:38:54.079 --> 01:38:58.720 that person partakes of what Christ did and of what 1509 01:38:58.880 --> 01:39:03.720 he accomplished, this becomes the case. The problem is what 1510 01:39:04.159 --> 01:39:07.159 in the Oriental and in the Nestorian view, what do 1511 01:39:07.239 --> 01:39:11.880 you actually mean by consubstantial? And if you mean consistantial 1512 01:39:11.960 --> 01:39:14.920 with the sense that you know, as we say that 1513 01:39:15.159 --> 01:39:19.359 Christ and human beings and Christ with the Father, there 1514 01:39:19.479 --> 01:39:24.359 is this realantological sameness, right, and he's not just some 1515 01:39:24.600 --> 01:39:29.199 kind of a nominal like same set, but a genuine sameness. 1516 01:39:29.960 --> 01:39:32.119 Then you have to confess to natures. You have to 1517 01:39:32.199 --> 01:39:35.000 acknowledge that Christ is in two natures. In order to 1518 01:39:35.079 --> 01:39:37.359 make that convention, you have to be able to say 1519 01:39:37.439 --> 01:39:41.479 that if you think that Christ is consistential with us 1520 01:39:41.520 --> 01:39:44.960 in the sense that he has he is some kind 1521 01:39:45.000 --> 01:39:50.399 of you know, particular human existence that is in the 1522 01:39:50.479 --> 01:39:54.399 same set as this universal of all human particulars and 1523 01:39:54.600 --> 01:39:57.159 universal of all divine particulars, and he's part. 1524 01:39:57.000 --> 01:39:58.000 Of those two sets. 1525 01:39:59.000 --> 01:40:00.920 That kind of an understand I think is much closer 1526 01:40:00.920 --> 01:40:04.720 to noomenalism. If that's not already denomenalism. That's basically the 1527 01:40:04.760 --> 01:40:09.039 problem that's at hand. And if you read Seras Fantics, 1528 01:40:09.079 --> 01:40:11.560 and this is I guess we will be analyzed this 1529 01:40:11.640 --> 01:40:13.760 in the future presentation. But if you read Seras of 1530 01:40:13.840 --> 01:40:19.479 Antioch's letter to Julian, when Julian is an after taduktist, 1531 01:40:19.560 --> 01:40:23.319 which means he kind of denies that Christ has certain 1532 01:40:23.359 --> 01:40:25.920 specific human properties it's a lot stronger than just saying 1533 01:40:25.960 --> 01:40:28.640 that Christ doesn't suffer or anything like that. That he 1534 01:40:28.760 --> 01:40:31.840 kind of denies that Christ as human properties. He kind 1535 01:40:31.840 --> 01:40:33.880 of service kind of makes the point that you know, 1536 01:40:34.000 --> 01:40:37.119 Christ does not have a have two natures, but he 1537 01:40:37.279 --> 01:40:41.479 has properties, natural properties proper to human nature. Okay, So 1538 01:40:41.560 --> 01:40:44.079 does that not mean that he has human nature? I 1539 01:40:44.119 --> 01:40:47.840 mean does that mean that, of course he denies that 1540 01:40:47.920 --> 01:40:49.960 being the case, right, he denies that there is a 1541 01:40:50.119 --> 01:40:52.079 human nature and divine nature in Christ in order to 1542 01:40:52.119 --> 01:40:55.199 protect his old crystological projects, so to speak. So the 1543 01:40:55.319 --> 01:40:58.600 point here what you see with this slide is not 1544 01:40:58.840 --> 01:41:00.520 what orients and in the store. 1545 01:41:00.319 --> 01:41:02.640 And say, is what actually is the case? 1546 01:41:03.479 --> 01:41:06.600 That's very important to understand and when we again try 1547 01:41:06.640 --> 01:41:08.439 to talk about this, we need to ask us als, Okay, 1548 01:41:08.479 --> 01:41:10.319 what these terms, what do you actually mean by this? 1549 01:41:11.720 --> 01:41:15.520 And this is why double consubstantiality within your slax framework 1550 01:41:16.119 --> 01:41:19.279 is the doction of two natures. That's really kind of 1551 01:41:19.600 --> 01:41:21.359 you can even kind of say that's all there is 1552 01:41:22.000 --> 01:41:25.479 to it. It's kind of just very simple in this regard, 1553 01:41:25.800 --> 01:41:28.000 but it also has a lot of explanatory power in 1554 01:41:28.119 --> 01:41:31.560 order to understand how Christ has human activities. How Christ 1555 01:41:31.600 --> 01:41:34.199 as a human will and how the union of sativity 1556 01:41:34.199 --> 01:41:37.000 and humanity in the one person. You know, how there 1557 01:41:37.079 --> 01:41:40.760 is an interaction between the two. There's a lot of 1558 01:41:40.800 --> 01:41:42.840 expansive power in that regard. So that's all I wanted 1559 01:41:42.880 --> 01:41:43.159 to say. 1560 01:41:49.359 --> 01:41:58.520 The Marganita, this is a very authoritative book in the 1561 01:41:58.680 --> 01:42:04.520 Church of the East. It is not a book that 1562 01:42:05.840 --> 01:42:12.720 an Assyrian Church of the East proponent can dismiss. It 1563 01:42:12.920 --> 01:42:18.039 is basically like catechortical instructions, if you will, It lays 1564 01:42:18.319 --> 01:42:24.720 out exactly what the Church of the East believes, using 1565 01:42:24.960 --> 01:42:33.119 its own terminology, its own phraseology. And this is that 1566 01:42:33.479 --> 01:42:43.239 what solidifies, if you will, that they are Nestorian without 1567 01:42:44.239 --> 01:42:53.880 a doubt. So in the Marganita, it segments the Orientals, 1568 01:42:55.199 --> 01:43:00.399 the Orthodox, and then the Church of the East, basically 1569 01:43:00.560 --> 01:43:09.479 identifying in the whole Kiana Knuma language what each respectively believes, 1570 01:43:11.079 --> 01:43:17.359 and so they the Margantha identifies the Orientals to hold 1571 01:43:17.439 --> 01:43:23.079 to one kana one kanuma basically one nature, one hypostasis. 1572 01:43:25.760 --> 01:43:30.600 With regards to the Orthodox, it basically says that we 1573 01:43:31.079 --> 01:43:39.359 profess two kiane, two natures, and one kanuma or one hypostasis. 1574 01:43:41.199 --> 01:43:47.479 And then it immediately follows and discusses the Nestorian or 1575 01:43:47.560 --> 01:43:53.279 the Church of the East position as consisting of two 1576 01:43:53.439 --> 01:43:59.079 kiane and two kume, so two natures and two hypostasis. 1577 01:44:00.800 --> 01:44:11.399 Now what's very interesting here is immediately following their statement 1578 01:44:11.520 --> 01:44:16.760 of what the Orthodox believe the Church of the East, 1579 01:44:17.039 --> 01:44:24.159 the Morganita, it does not redefine what cnuma means, so 1580 01:44:24.479 --> 01:44:34.439 its understanding of cnuma is functionally the same. And what 1581 01:44:34.720 --> 01:44:40.680 that then entails from a metaphysical perspective is the Marganita 1582 01:44:40.800 --> 01:44:46.359 the Church of the East correctly identifies metaphysically that the 1583 01:44:46.600 --> 01:44:51.399 Orthodox are saying that you can have one cnuma and 1584 01:44:51.640 --> 01:45:00.119 hipposthetizing to Kane, one hypostasis and hipposthetizing to natures. That 1585 01:45:00.239 --> 01:45:07.880 is correct, That is them clearly understanding the Orthodox position. 1586 01:45:10.079 --> 01:45:14.439 So then when they say to Knuma and Tukiane, they 1587 01:45:14.479 --> 01:45:23.159 are saying that metaphysically, each nature must have its own 1588 01:45:23.680 --> 01:45:30.199 particular individuating substrate, if you will, its own particular numa. 1589 01:45:34.880 --> 01:45:43.760 And then what the Marghanita says is they explicitly name Nestorius. 1590 01:45:45.760 --> 01:45:50.359 But they make a very big mistake that they probably 1591 01:45:50.439 --> 01:45:55.359 didn't even realize. And this is something what the Assyrian 1592 01:45:55.479 --> 01:46:00.720 speakers are perhaps ignorant of when they keep saying, oh, 1593 01:46:01.000 --> 01:46:05.079 it's a language issue, you don't know Syriac. There's a 1594 01:46:05.479 --> 01:46:10.079 specific meaning to Knuma all of that garbage, because they 1595 01:46:10.279 --> 01:46:19.720 say clearly that though Nestorius basically follows the position that 1596 01:46:20.000 --> 01:46:25.800 the Church of the East espouses, they say that Nestorius 1597 01:46:26.079 --> 01:46:31.479 held the same faith, but he didn't understand their language. 1598 01:46:31.800 --> 01:46:37.079 He didn't understand Syriac. So that means that if you 1599 01:46:37.279 --> 01:46:44.560 are telling us that Nestorius held the same faith, we 1600 01:46:44.760 --> 01:46:48.479 don't need to understand Syriac to understand what you believe. 1601 01:46:49.079 --> 01:46:52.760 We can understand Nestorius in the original Greek. We know 1602 01:46:53.000 --> 01:46:56.439 what Thestori has professed in the original Greek. That means 1603 01:46:56.800 --> 01:47:01.760 we do correctly understand what the Church of the East 1604 01:47:02.000 --> 01:47:08.880 is teaching, and we are correct in charging you with Nestorianism. Okay, 1605 01:47:09.199 --> 01:47:13.439 we don't need your kluma garbage. We don't need your Oh, 1606 01:47:13.600 --> 01:47:16.600 you don't understand what we're saying, because Syriac is a 1607 01:47:16.720 --> 01:47:23.159 mystical language that only us Assyrians can understand. No, we 1608 01:47:23.319 --> 01:47:28.119 understand what you're saying, and you are expressing specifically the 1609 01:47:28.319 --> 01:47:34.760 metaphysical move that you require to have a particular hippostatic 1610 01:47:34.880 --> 01:47:39.600 kind to individuate your nature, and that sets up a 1611 01:47:39.880 --> 01:47:47.079 double subject christology. And moreover, in your Marganita, you are 1612 01:47:47.279 --> 01:47:53.279 saying that you have two kluma, two subjects, but one will. 1613 01:47:53.760 --> 01:47:57.880 And you think that because you say that Christ has 1614 01:47:58.000 --> 01:48:03.920 one will or one son ship or one authority, that 1615 01:48:04.399 --> 01:48:09.560 this now is your one person, that is Christ. And 1616 01:48:09.720 --> 01:48:13.039 so now you're professing the the the Orthodox faith or 1617 01:48:13.119 --> 01:48:17.079 the true faith if you will. Well, it's clear that 1618 01:48:17.359 --> 01:48:23.199 when you're saying one person, you're not saying it in 1619 01:48:23.319 --> 01:48:28.000 the same way that we are saying one person, because 1620 01:48:28.319 --> 01:48:33.520 when you identify that we profess one cluma, that means 1621 01:48:33.600 --> 01:48:37.119 we profess one person. But when you say you have 1622 01:48:37.279 --> 01:48:42.640 two kluma, and then you're saying one person, well, if 1623 01:48:42.680 --> 01:48:46.920 you're going to deny that person equates with cnuma, So 1624 01:48:47.039 --> 01:48:51.399 then where what does person equate to? In your scheme? 1625 01:48:52.000 --> 01:48:56.039 You have no other ontology to point to but to will. 1626 01:48:57.880 --> 01:49:01.800 So for those who want to analyzer, who can understand 1627 01:49:02.479 --> 01:49:05.199 the Syriac, that's just the slide there that shows the 1628 01:49:05.319 --> 01:49:10.960 exact Syriac of the Marganita, that makes it crystal clear 1629 01:49:11.479 --> 01:49:19.239 exactly those terms being used. So the Margnita correctly identifies 1630 01:49:19.279 --> 01:49:22.560 the Orthodox Oriental and Church of the East positions with 1631 01:49:22.680 --> 01:49:28.680 regards to hypostasis and nature. It does not redefine nature 1632 01:49:29.000 --> 01:49:32.880 or person or like Keana or Knuma when elaborating the 1633 01:49:32.960 --> 01:49:36.560 Church of these positions for not person but hypostasis. So 1634 01:49:36.840 --> 01:49:41.960 there is no misunderstanding in Syriac between the Orthodox, Orientals 1635 01:49:42.079 --> 01:49:47.159 and Church of the East. The Morganita explicitly affirms that 1636 01:49:47.319 --> 01:49:50.239 the Church of the East professes the correct faith to 1637 01:49:50.319 --> 01:49:55.920 the exclusion of the Orthodox and Orientals. So this is 1638 01:49:56.000 --> 01:49:58.159 now setting up a problem for the Church of the 1639 01:49:58.279 --> 01:50:03.560 East to say that they profess the same theology as Rome, 1640 01:50:05.000 --> 01:50:09.920 because it clearly says that they don't, and it accepts 1641 01:50:10.000 --> 01:50:15.039 Nestorius as having correct theology, despite Mystorius not speaking or 1642 01:50:15.119 --> 01:50:19.880 writing in Syriac. And that is an admission that we 1643 01:50:20.000 --> 01:50:23.199 can understand the Church of the East theology in Greek 1644 01:50:23.840 --> 01:50:29.079 via Mystorius and by extension, Theodore of Mopsuestia. So Syriac 1645 01:50:29.239 --> 01:50:33.920 is not necessary to understand the Church of the Easts theology. Nevertheless, 1646 01:50:34.079 --> 01:50:38.520 we do understand your Syriac terminology. And so the modern 1647 01:50:38.600 --> 01:50:42.520 day proponents of the Church of the East are playing 1648 01:50:43.079 --> 01:50:47.960 word games when they insist that we as Orthodox do 1649 01:50:48.199 --> 01:50:54.840 not understand this Knuma nonsense. Okay, the issue is not 1650 01:50:55.039 --> 01:50:59.680 about Knuma. It is not about the Syriac language. You 1651 01:50:59.800 --> 01:51:06.000 guys can cry day and night about these terms. We 1652 01:51:06.199 --> 01:51:11.119 understand your metaphysics, We understand what you mean with your individuations. 1653 01:51:11.439 --> 01:51:14.600 We understand what you mean by your individuals and how 1654 01:51:14.640 --> 01:51:20.319 it pertains to universals in particulars. What is that play 1655 01:51:20.439 --> 01:51:23.159 here is that proponents of the Church of the East 1656 01:51:23.520 --> 01:51:29.920 are not competent in metaphysics to understand what their three 1657 01:51:30.039 --> 01:51:34.840 tier ontology actually entails, and they're being arrogant in their 1658 01:51:34.960 --> 01:51:43.520 claims by just simply relegating it as some Syriac terminology issue. Now, 1659 01:51:44.000 --> 01:51:47.039 this one, I don't think I need to really read. 1660 01:51:48.640 --> 01:51:50.600 All of what's quoted here is just put as a 1661 01:51:50.720 --> 01:51:54.720 reference just to establish the point that Christ has two 1662 01:51:54.880 --> 01:51:59.880 wills and not one one. One of the quotes is 1663 01:52:00.000 --> 01:52:03.279 from the letter of Pope Agatho. Then I'm quoting the 1664 01:52:04.520 --> 01:52:09.600 Catechism of the Orthodox Church, Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1665 01:52:10.119 --> 01:52:15.319 just to demonstrate that metaphysically, we believe that Christ has 1666 01:52:15.359 --> 01:52:18.680 two wills. So if you are going to enter into union, 1667 01:52:19.399 --> 01:52:25.479 then you have to press the same This is another one. 1668 01:52:25.600 --> 01:52:29.600 The definition of faith ratified at the sixth Ecumenical Council, 1669 01:52:29.800 --> 01:52:34.279 that makes it very clear that you must profess two wills, 1670 01:52:34.680 --> 01:52:38.960 and the Marganita it clearly says one will. And it 1671 01:52:39.079 --> 01:52:42.239 doesn't really matter all that much that you would have 1672 01:52:43.399 --> 01:52:45.560 other writings within the Church of the East that will 1673 01:52:45.640 --> 01:52:50.520 say two wills. In effect, you do have only one 1674 01:52:51.000 --> 01:52:54.720 one will. The importance of two wills is going to 1675 01:52:54.800 --> 01:53:01.479 come apparent when we have the stream on the energies 1676 01:53:02.479 --> 01:53:09.119 and wills being a property of nature. Now to unpack 1677 01:53:09.279 --> 01:53:14.800 the Nestorian monothelitism or this idea that Christ is one will. 1678 01:53:15.760 --> 01:53:17.760 So you have both the Church of the East and 1679 01:53:17.960 --> 01:53:22.880 the Orientals professing Christ to have one will. So then 1680 01:53:23.039 --> 01:53:27.520 you ask the question, well, is will a property of nature, 1681 01:53:27.920 --> 01:53:33.680 hypostasis or person? So the Orientals they'll take the position 1682 01:53:33.760 --> 01:53:38.279 that it's a property of the hypostasis. The Church of 1683 01:53:38.359 --> 01:53:42.840 the East must take will to be a property of 1684 01:53:43.159 --> 01:53:46.279 person in order to maintain and I'm going to use 1685 01:53:46.319 --> 01:53:50.840 this term loosely, a coherent metaphysics. I don't believe that 1686 01:53:50.920 --> 01:53:53.479 their metaphysics is coherent, but it's kind of like they 1687 01:53:53.520 --> 01:53:57.399 have certain premisses and in order to kind of maintain 1688 01:53:57.920 --> 01:54:00.800 the conclusions of those premisses and a coherent way they're 1689 01:54:00.880 --> 01:54:05.880 forced into a certain line of thinking. Will can't be 1690 01:54:06.000 --> 01:54:09.840 a property of nature because there is no union of 1691 01:54:10.079 --> 01:54:14.359 natures in Nestorian theology. In Church of the East theology, 1692 01:54:15.680 --> 01:54:19.520 will cannot be a property of hypostasis or kanuma because 1693 01:54:19.560 --> 01:54:25.279 there is no union of hypostasis or kanuma. So simply 1694 01:54:25.359 --> 01:54:29.319 by process of elimination, will must be a property of person, 1695 01:54:29.800 --> 01:54:35.239 wherein two wills come together in a prosopic union to 1696 01:54:35.399 --> 01:54:40.239 result in one will. However, this one will is a 1697 01:54:40.279 --> 01:54:44.640 will of unison and not unity, because the divine and 1698 01:54:44.800 --> 01:54:51.279 human subjects in Christ must maintain distinct personhood in order 1699 01:54:51.399 --> 01:54:56.439 for there to be a quote unquote prosopic union, i e. 1700 01:54:56.600 --> 01:55:02.039 A mixing of concrete ontological existence is not allowed. So 1701 01:55:02.239 --> 01:55:09.720 a prosopic union necessitates to prosopa to persons. Otherwise there 1702 01:55:10.000 --> 01:55:14.560 is no union because the natures and the hypostasis or 1703 01:55:14.800 --> 01:55:20.920 the kiana and the krume are not what unite. So 1704 01:55:21.159 --> 01:55:26.600 if the Logos gifts his person his parsupa to the humanity, 1705 01:55:27.960 --> 01:55:30.880 and it is in that where the union is realized, 1706 01:55:31.680 --> 01:55:37.760 then that is admission that there are two subjects in Christ, 1707 01:55:38.520 --> 01:55:43.640 because if the humanity requires a parsupa, a person wherever 1708 01:55:43.800 --> 01:55:48.039 it comes from divinity or elsewhere, then it demonstrates that 1709 01:55:48.199 --> 01:55:55.199 the humanity in Christ is comprised of nature, hypostasis, and person. 1710 01:55:56.439 --> 01:56:02.000 So then to what ontology does will refer process of 1711 01:56:02.039 --> 01:56:04.840 elimination forced it to refer to the ontology of person, 1712 01:56:05.199 --> 01:56:09.640 and in order to maintain a coherent quote unquote coherent metaphysics, 1713 01:56:09.960 --> 01:56:14.560 the ontology has to be real. It can't be an aggregate, 1714 01:56:15.000 --> 01:56:21.520 meaning that there must be two persons. So now this 1715 01:56:21.720 --> 01:56:26.680 whole thing that Nestorius really was a Nestorian, because there 1716 01:56:26.880 --> 01:56:32.079 have been some articles, some pseudo scholarship, and some bullship 1717 01:56:32.199 --> 01:56:37.399 being presented that Nestorius really wasn't a Nestorian. So when 1718 01:56:37.520 --> 01:56:49.800 we unpack this, the Nestorian three tier ontology is nature, hypostasis, person, kiana, knuma, persupa. 1719 01:56:50.720 --> 01:56:56.119 The kiana is your abstract common or your universal, your 1720 01:56:56.199 --> 01:57:02.920 knuma is your individuated, nature is your individual. So now 1721 01:57:02.960 --> 01:57:06.720 we remember that will. We have to take will as 1722 01:57:06.720 --> 01:57:10.520 a property of person of parsupa. So if Christ has 1723 01:57:10.600 --> 01:57:13.279 two wills, you see, because this is what the Nestorians 1724 01:57:13.319 --> 01:57:15.159 are gonna do they're gonna say, no, we deny that 1725 01:57:15.279 --> 01:57:19.079 Christ is one will. Christ will have two wills. Well, 1726 01:57:19.279 --> 01:57:23.520 you've got two natures, you've got two hypostases, you've got 1727 01:57:23.560 --> 01:57:29.279 two wills. That means you have two persons. And if 1728 01:57:29.359 --> 01:57:33.960 Nestorius's prosopic union is a quote unquote union of divine 1729 01:57:33.960 --> 01:57:36.920 and human wills, that's how you get your one will. 1730 01:57:38.640 --> 01:57:41.600 So the divine Logos gives his will to human Jesus 1731 01:57:41.960 --> 01:57:46.199 in order to quote unquote unite the two persons into 1732 01:57:46.399 --> 01:57:52.359 one person. And so the Nestorian incarnation is not an 1733 01:57:52.439 --> 01:57:58.520 ontological incarnation of the Logos. It is a gifting of 1734 01:57:58.760 --> 01:58:04.880 the divine will to a human subject. And so that 1735 01:58:05.199 --> 01:58:10.000 means that, in effect, the prosopic union is not a 1736 01:58:10.199 --> 01:58:15.560 real union. It is an illusion. What you have are 1737 01:58:15.960 --> 01:58:19.119 two subjects in unison. 1738 01:58:20.039 --> 01:58:23.000 What does that exactly mean to gift the will? I mean, 1739 01:58:23.079 --> 01:58:26.239 that's just a very bizarre I mean, obviously he can't 1740 01:58:26.319 --> 01:58:30.600 undergo change and lose or forego the human will. So 1741 01:58:30.800 --> 01:58:33.119 what does it mean to gift a will to the humanity. 1742 01:58:33.680 --> 01:58:37.359 It just means that the humanity will always act in 1743 01:58:37.479 --> 01:58:43.199 accordance to what the divine will wants or like wills, 1744 01:58:43.359 --> 01:58:44.680 it's basically. 1745 01:58:44.760 --> 01:58:48.520 I think will in other words, grace. He graces the 1746 01:58:48.560 --> 01:58:51.199 humanity to always operate correctly. 1747 01:58:52.640 --> 01:58:57.239 It essentially becomes like the logos is remote piloting a 1748 01:58:57.359 --> 01:59:00.159 human body. It's like he's playing a video game, if 1749 01:59:00.199 --> 01:59:03.439 you will. He has this little controller and he's exercising 1750 01:59:03.600 --> 01:59:07.399 his will to be actualized in humanity. 1751 01:59:07.840 --> 01:59:11.520 But the main actisations started for cutting after it. But 1752 01:59:11.720 --> 01:59:13.800 the main actiation that you get from seeing curle F 1753 01:59:13.800 --> 01:59:17.800 Alexandria is that this kind of picture is basically like, 1754 01:59:17.880 --> 01:59:21.039 how is it any different from God? You know, the 1755 01:59:21.119 --> 01:59:24.079 Holy Spirit speaking true prophets? Right, this is the kind 1756 01:59:24.119 --> 01:59:26.199 of thing that they that he criticized, Like, this is 1757 01:59:26.239 --> 01:59:30.000 basically like big, No, this seems no different than the 1758 01:59:30.039 --> 01:59:33.159 Holy Spirit coming into a prophet and like having him speak, 1759 01:59:34.079 --> 01:59:36.840 Like where's the difference? And I think like logically speaking, 1760 01:59:36.880 --> 01:59:38.680 there doesn't seem to be any difference. It's just kind 1761 01:59:38.680 --> 01:59:42.039 of like instead of just like speaking like at a 1762 01:59:42.119 --> 01:59:46.960 point in time, like Christ is only just speaking by 1763 01:59:47.079 --> 01:59:49.279 the inspiration of the Holy Spirit within this picture, and 1764 01:59:49.359 --> 01:59:52.119 that's like what makes him different amongst other things as 1765 01:59:52.159 --> 01:59:54.119 well in this in this scheme. 1766 01:59:55.640 --> 01:59:59.399 Yeah, but operationally there is no difference the main difference is, 1767 01:59:59.439 --> 02:00:03.199 like as you said, David, it's just an ongoing occurrence 1768 02:00:03.439 --> 02:00:06.600 of the logos rather than just a single moment in time. 1769 02:00:10.399 --> 02:00:14.800 So let's take a look at some example through the 1770 02:00:14.920 --> 02:00:19.760 Nestorian three tirontology how we can conceptualize this. So if 1771 02:00:19.840 --> 02:00:23.439 we're looking at kianu kruma, parsupa or nature hypostasis person. 1772 02:00:24.279 --> 02:00:28.880 So the nature in Christ you could say, is human, 1773 02:00:30.399 --> 02:00:36.600 the knuma is Jesus, and the parsupa is that this 1774 02:00:37.279 --> 02:00:41.800 Jesus is thirty three years old. Because that being thirty 1775 02:00:41.840 --> 02:00:45.399 three years old is what's going to distinguish that kunuma 1776 02:00:45.520 --> 02:00:48.159 from a different knuma that is, let's say twenty five 1777 02:00:48.239 --> 02:00:54.359 years old. There's some differentiating property that individualizes that knuma 1778 02:00:54.680 --> 02:01:01.159 to set it apart from all other instances of human. Well, 1779 02:01:01.239 --> 02:01:03.399 if you look at the divine aspect, so you have 1780 02:01:03.800 --> 02:01:08.000 the nature is divine, the knuma is the logos. So 1781 02:01:08.199 --> 02:01:10.399 it's not the Father, it's not the Holy Spirit, it 1782 02:01:10.640 --> 02:01:14.720 is the logos. But then what's the parsupa. It's that 1783 02:01:15.000 --> 02:01:20.920 it's eternal or it's quote unquote son. And so in 1784 02:01:21.039 --> 02:01:27.079 the prosopic union, sonship is given by the external divine logo, 1785 02:01:27.279 --> 02:01:30.680 the eternal divine logos to the thirty three year old 1786 02:01:30.800 --> 02:01:35.439 man Jesus, and this gifting of sonship. So remember that 1787 02:01:35.600 --> 02:01:40.199 quote from the fore from Nestorius of saying son by honor. 1788 02:01:40.760 --> 02:01:44.600 So Jesus is son basically by honor. The gifting of 1789 02:01:44.760 --> 02:01:49.880 sonship by the logos results in the quote unquote person 1790 02:01:49.960 --> 02:01:53.479 of Christ. And so then Christ just becomes a name 1791 02:01:54.079 --> 02:01:59.960 indicating the gifting of sonship to Jesus. And so Christ 1792 02:02:00.520 --> 02:02:06.159 in this metaphysical system does not have a distinct hypostasis, 1793 02:02:06.520 --> 02:02:10.600 does not have a distinct curuma. There is no one 1794 02:02:10.720 --> 02:02:14.800 to one hypostasis or cnuma two person part super relationship 1795 02:02:15.239 --> 02:02:19.960 for Christ. So the two subject christology is the result 1796 02:02:20.159 --> 02:02:24.840 of the prosopic union. And this is vehemently opposed by 1797 02:02:25.119 --> 02:02:28.680 Orthodox It is an ereconcilable difference. 1798 02:02:28.760 --> 02:02:31.039 So what I have a questionnaire? Would that mean then 1799 02:02:31.119 --> 02:02:36.359 that the a Nestorian here doesn't affirm eternal generation because 1800 02:02:36.560 --> 02:02:40.640 if sonship is something that's given in the economia, it's 1801 02:02:40.720 --> 02:02:41.960 not an eternal relationship. 1802 02:02:42.960 --> 02:02:45.760 Well, that would be applicable to the Jesus correct to 1803 02:02:45.800 --> 02:02:46.399 the humanity. 1804 02:02:47.760 --> 02:02:49.960 I think I think it's more like they will affirm 1805 02:02:50.079 --> 02:02:54.279 that the word is begotten of the father. But that 1806 02:02:55.279 --> 02:02:59.239 so there's certain like the terms, the names, they don't 1807 02:02:59.359 --> 02:03:00.439 apply to. 1808 02:03:02.079 --> 02:03:02.680 Communication. 1809 02:03:03.279 --> 02:03:04.880 So Sun is a name that only applies in the 1810 02:03:04.920 --> 02:03:05.840 economy as all right. 1811 02:03:06.000 --> 02:03:08.800 So Christ is a term that applies to both natures. 1812 02:03:09.439 --> 02:03:12.760 But if you say, for example, Jesus, that only applies 1813 02:03:12.840 --> 02:03:15.640 to the human right, So that's that's the kind of 1814 02:03:16.199 --> 02:03:20.159 naming convention. So Nestorians won't deny the eternal generation. 1815 02:03:20.439 --> 02:03:21.479 This affirms it. 1816 02:03:21.600 --> 02:03:26.640 But you know, he's yeah, so in terms of like 1817 02:03:26.960 --> 02:03:30.600 again like this is comic, communicunty, mattern, the communication of properties. 1818 02:03:31.079 --> 02:03:34.239 You don't have this in especially in this story, in 1819 02:03:34.359 --> 02:03:37.720 later in later this you know, in some Nestorians, for 1820 02:03:37.840 --> 02:03:41.680 who try to affirm the community cousture, they affirmed this 1821 02:03:41.840 --> 02:03:45.680 only as a manner of speaking, right thermis. 1822 02:03:45.039 --> 02:03:46.680 In antological way like we do. 1823 02:03:46.880 --> 02:03:49.479 For example, so when we say that, for example, the 1824 02:03:49.560 --> 02:03:53.159 Lord of Glory, Lord of Majesty was cruticified. 1825 02:03:54.720 --> 02:03:56.319 For source, it's just a way of saying. 1826 02:03:56.560 --> 02:03:58.920 But when we say that, we know the Lord of 1827 02:03:59.319 --> 02:04:05.239 Glory ontologically really was crucified, right, the divine logos was crucified. 1828 02:04:05.800 --> 02:04:07.520 The reason why he was critified was certainly because he 1829 02:04:07.560 --> 02:04:09.920 had a body and the soul, body and the soul. 1830 02:04:10.000 --> 02:04:14.199 But the communication of divine energies between the two persons 1831 02:04:14.279 --> 02:04:17.720 in Christ is ontological. It's not just a manner of speaking, 1832 02:04:17.760 --> 02:04:20.359 it's it's not a way of speaking, right, It's a 1833 02:04:20.439 --> 02:04:24.359 real ontological thing. That's what distinguishes us from the position. 1834 02:04:24.479 --> 02:04:29.880 But Earlierians like Theodore, the story is they're pretty much yeah, 1835 02:04:29.960 --> 02:04:33.479 this kind of like communication of names. Even they didn't 1836 02:04:33.479 --> 02:04:35.520 even accept that. So that's kind of where that comes from. 1837 02:04:36.000 --> 02:04:44.119 Yeah, when we consider Mariology, this is basically informing your Christology. 1838 02:04:44.520 --> 02:04:50.960 So the way we understand the Virgin Mary will basically 1839 02:04:51.239 --> 02:04:55.680 tell us whether or not you hold to an orthodox Christology. 1840 02:04:57.000 --> 02:04:59.920 And so when we look at what Nestorius writes and 1841 02:05:00.079 --> 02:05:03.039 his first letter to the Bishop of Rome san Celestine, 1842 02:05:03.439 --> 02:05:06.640 so this is leading up basically there are a bunch 1843 02:05:06.720 --> 02:05:12.920 of letters being communicated between Rome between Alexandria leading up 1844 02:05:12.960 --> 02:05:16.640 to the Third Ecumenical Council, and so Nestorius is writing, 1845 02:05:16.800 --> 02:05:21.039 we reject applying the term theotokos to the Virgin Mary, 1846 02:05:21.760 --> 02:05:25.640 for properly, the nativity was consubstantial with the one giving birth, 1847 02:05:25.960 --> 02:05:28.840 while his manifestation in a human being resulted from the 1848 02:05:28.920 --> 02:05:33.439 creation of the Lord's manhood joined to the Godhead from 1849 02:05:33.560 --> 02:05:38.840 the Virgin through the Spirit. Okay, So this is rejection 1850 02:05:39.119 --> 02:05:41.840 of the term deo tokus, and it's going to be 1851 02:05:41.840 --> 02:05:47.079 important in a moment. Nestorius in his second letter Christ tokos, 1852 02:05:47.119 --> 02:05:50.439 so this is the preferred term for this expression uses 1853 02:05:50.479 --> 02:05:54.640 a name that signifies both natures, namely Christ, and it 1854 02:05:54.880 --> 02:06:01.039 conjoins Godhead and manhood in one adoration, since the Godhead 1855 02:06:01.039 --> 02:06:03.199 of the son is consistential with the Godhead of the Father, 1856 02:06:03.720 --> 02:06:07.159 while the manhood was born at a later time from 1857 02:06:07.199 --> 02:06:10.640 the Holy Virgin, and because of its conjunction with the Godhead, 1858 02:06:11.000 --> 02:06:17.359 is worshiped together with it by men and angels. So basically, 1859 02:06:17.840 --> 02:06:22.560 what he's saying here is the only reason why you 1860 02:06:22.720 --> 02:06:26.239 can worship Christ in his humanity is because of its 1861 02:06:26.279 --> 02:06:31.720 association to the Divinity, and it's a conjunction, and that 1862 02:06:32.000 --> 02:06:36.399 is what makes the adoration possible. And this is why 1863 02:06:36.560 --> 02:06:42.279 he wants that term riso tolkus. Now Saint Cyril in 1864 02:06:42.359 --> 02:06:47.119 his second letter to Nestorius, he's basically responding to this understanding. 1865 02:06:47.520 --> 02:06:52.119 He's saying, we do not worship a man together with 1866 02:06:53.000 --> 02:06:57.359 the word, lest a semblance of division might creep in 1867 02:06:57.720 --> 02:07:00.840 through the use of the word quote unquote with But 1868 02:07:01.000 --> 02:07:05.319 we worship him as one and the same, because the 1869 02:07:05.439 --> 02:07:08.600 body with which he is enthroned with the Father is 1870 02:07:08.800 --> 02:07:13.000 not alien to the Word. So Saint Cyril is talking 1871 02:07:13.119 --> 02:07:18.199 metaphysics here, he's talking ontology. He's saying, we are worshiping 1872 02:07:18.560 --> 02:07:23.000 the same ontology that is the Word. And this is 1873 02:07:23.159 --> 02:07:28.600 why we call the Virgin Mary Theotokos, in understanding of 1874 02:07:28.960 --> 02:07:33.239 the ontology that she is giving birth to. And then 1875 02:07:33.439 --> 02:07:36.760 Nestorius in his second letter to Saint Cyril, for I 1876 02:07:36.880 --> 02:07:40.560 do not understand how it meaning the hypostatic union could 1877 02:07:40.680 --> 02:07:44.720 introduce the one declared earlier to be impassable and incapable 1878 02:07:44.800 --> 02:07:48.800 of a second birth as again passable and newly created, 1879 02:07:49.159 --> 02:07:51.640 as if the natural properties of God the Word are 1880 02:07:51.800 --> 02:07:55.960 destroyed by conjunction with a temple, or as if it 1881 02:07:56.039 --> 02:07:59.960 is thought a trivial thing by men that the sinless temple, 1882 02:08:00.319 --> 02:08:04.560 inseparable from the divine nature, should undergo birth and death 1883 02:08:04.840 --> 02:08:11.760 on behalf of sinners. So Nestorius is crystal clear the ontology, 1884 02:08:11.880 --> 02:08:18.520 that is the logos, is not incarnating. That's not what's happening. 1885 02:08:18.960 --> 02:08:23.079 The logos is not in fleshing. It is not the ontology, 1886 02:08:23.159 --> 02:08:25.159 that is the logos that is in fleshing. And he's 1887 02:08:25.239 --> 02:08:29.439 making it crystal clear. And the Marganitha is saying that 1888 02:08:30.000 --> 02:08:32.479 this is the position of the Church of the East, 1889 02:08:32.800 --> 02:08:36.199 because this is what Nestorians believe. Nestorius in the Church 1890 02:08:36.239 --> 02:08:38.560 of the East belief in the exact same thing. Well, 1891 02:08:38.800 --> 02:08:46.840 this is what Nestorius believes. Let's look at what the 1892 02:08:47.000 --> 02:08:51.359 Metropolitan of Malabar and India of the Assyrian Church of 1893 02:08:51.479 --> 02:08:56.359 the East says. So this is now an official cleric, 1894 02:08:57.279 --> 02:09:03.640 high ranking cleric in the Church of the East. The 1895 02:09:03.800 --> 02:09:07.880 necessity for a Nestorian Christology becomes inevitable when we think 1896 02:09:08.000 --> 02:09:11.359 of the greatest position ascribed to Virgin Mary in the 1897 02:09:11.479 --> 02:09:16.279 Roman Catholic Church. The fear expressed by Nestorius against the 1898 02:09:16.439 --> 02:09:19.600 use of theotokos should not be ignored. It is one 1899 02:09:19.640 --> 02:09:23.479 of the positive contributions of Nestorius to have exposed the 1900 02:09:23.560 --> 02:09:28.039 potential danger of this title. As far back as our 1901 02:09:28.079 --> 02:09:31.159 records of history go, there was nobody to speak against 1902 02:09:31.199 --> 02:09:34.199 this title before four to twenty eight AD, though it 1903 02:09:34.359 --> 02:09:37.920 was used by certain individuals. Perhaps it would have become 1904 02:09:38.000 --> 02:09:41.720 the standard expression of all Christians if Nestorius did not 1905 02:09:42.000 --> 02:09:44.079 wage such a crusade against this title. 1906 02:09:44.600 --> 02:09:47.119 Can I just interject for this moment. I find it 1907 02:09:47.239 --> 02:09:49.600 really funny that he says it was used by certain 1908 02:09:49.680 --> 02:09:58.560 individuals like Saint Gregory Theologian. Yes, yes, certain individuals, certain individuals. 1909 02:09:59.319 --> 02:09:59.800 Yeah, I mean this. 1910 02:10:00.000 --> 02:10:03.880 So this was pretty much like at the time this 1911 02:10:04.079 --> 02:10:09.119 term was introduced, theotokos was very much instantly received, very much, 1912 02:10:09.479 --> 02:10:10.560 very yeah, very much. 1913 02:10:11.640 --> 02:10:15.079 Till the Reformation in the sixteenth century, the Church of 1914 02:10:15.159 --> 02:10:17.720 the East was the only church which shared the concern 1915 02:10:17.960 --> 02:10:23.600 of Nestorius against the use of theo tokus. Since the Reformation, however, 1916 02:10:23.960 --> 02:10:28.000 many churches share this attitude, and thus the position taken 1917 02:10:28.039 --> 02:10:31.199 by the Church of the East singularly down through the 1918 02:10:31.319 --> 02:10:38.359 centuries is vindicated. Oh okay, so the Reformation actually was 1919 02:10:39.680 --> 02:10:43.199 was productive. You agree with the Reformation, you guys in 1920 02:10:43.239 --> 02:10:46.000 the Church of the East. You're siding with the reformers. 1921 02:10:46.640 --> 02:10:49.399 Oh but wait a minute, aren't you part of this 1922 02:10:49.520 --> 02:10:58.560 whole apostolic Christianity movement? Apparently not. The christological formula of 1923 02:10:58.720 --> 02:11:02.640 this church is that the prosopic union, rejecting the formula 1924 02:11:02.760 --> 02:11:07.960 of hypostatic union accepted by both Catholics and the Eastern 1925 02:11:08.079 --> 02:11:13.960 Orthodox churches. This prosopic union is a three tier Christology 1926 02:11:14.479 --> 02:11:18.079 where the union is not at the first level of natures, 1927 02:11:19.199 --> 02:11:22.039 nor at the second level of the hypostasis, but at 1928 02:11:22.119 --> 02:11:25.840 the third level of the prosopon. To the members of 1929 02:11:25.960 --> 02:11:30.640 this church, the idea of perfect God and Man is 1930 02:11:30.960 --> 02:11:35.760 understood only if Christ has both natures and plume of 1931 02:11:35.880 --> 02:11:39.520 both God and Man, and the union has taken place 1932 02:11:40.399 --> 02:11:43.279 only at the level of prosopon. 1933 02:11:44.680 --> 02:11:48.880 I also want to yeah, like, so when we say 1934 02:11:49.279 --> 02:11:52.720 that there's a hypostatic union, right, this means that there's 1935 02:11:52.720 --> 02:11:56.479 a union in the hypostasis, right, what is united in 1936 02:11:56.560 --> 02:11:58.159 the hypostasis under two natures? 1937 02:11:59.079 --> 02:12:01.720 So this perspective, what he's. 1938 02:12:01.560 --> 02:12:04.319 Trying to get at is that I think the way 1939 02:12:04.319 --> 02:12:08.560 I understand is he's criticizing our view by saying that, 1940 02:12:09.000 --> 02:12:11.479 you know, you say Christ is fully human, but then 1941 02:12:11.560 --> 02:12:14.279 you say Christ does not have his own hypostasis, right, 1942 02:12:14.359 --> 02:12:20.319 So being fully human means having your own separate hypostasis, 1943 02:12:20.399 --> 02:12:23.520 and this kind of showcases that. First of all, it 1944 02:12:23.680 --> 02:12:26.760 means that there's no distinction proper between nature and person 1945 02:12:27.600 --> 02:12:31.279 because to be a human need to have human nature 1946 02:12:31.439 --> 02:12:34.600 means in this scheme, to be a human person. Right, 1947 02:12:34.680 --> 02:12:37.239 this is what you kind of get. And like in 1948 02:12:37.319 --> 02:12:39.920 this scheme the one person is kind of just again 1949 02:12:40.000 --> 02:12:43.359 a union of the two prosopa, and you have the hypostasis. 1950 02:12:43.439 --> 02:12:46.960 The hypostasis is just a particularization of that nature. Right. 1951 02:12:47.000 --> 02:12:50.159 So that's the kind of that's what the three you know, 1952 02:12:50.279 --> 02:12:54.039 that's what the threefold structure of this cern cristalgia. So 1953 02:12:54.239 --> 02:12:57.520 you have the nature, which is this abstract universal common reality, 1954 02:12:57.720 --> 02:13:00.920 so and so forth. Then you have the particular instantiation, right, 1955 02:13:01.000 --> 02:13:04.199 particular nature, and then you have the person, right, that 1956 02:13:04.319 --> 02:13:05.119 is attached. 1957 02:13:04.760 --> 02:13:06.000 To it, and then the level of person. 1958 02:13:06.039 --> 02:13:09.159 There is this union because there's the common will of 1959 02:13:10.840 --> 02:13:13.640 the man Jesus and the Word of God. And this 1960 02:13:13.760 --> 02:13:18.159 common will is the Word of God, you know, indwelling within. 1961 02:13:18.960 --> 02:13:22.520 So again, like if you look at the terminology of 1962 02:13:22.560 --> 02:13:27.800 the early historians, this becomes very clear, and they use scripture, 1963 02:13:27.920 --> 02:13:31.000 they use the biblical language of you know, indwelling, right, 1964 02:13:31.279 --> 02:13:34.159 that the Word dwells within the human body like he 1965 02:13:34.279 --> 02:13:37.560 dwells like God dwelt in the tabernacle. And of course 1966 02:13:37.640 --> 02:13:40.720 this is scriptural, right, But the meaning of the scriptural 1967 02:13:41.359 --> 02:13:44.239 understanding is just the distinction of the two natures. In fact, 1968 02:13:44.640 --> 02:13:46.479 in the skull of the incarnation. That's what saying curl 1969 02:13:46.560 --> 02:13:48.840 for Alexandrosiys. That's to say that the two natures are 1970 02:13:48.880 --> 02:13:52.279 distinct after the indwelling, which is kind of curious but. 1971 02:13:53.920 --> 02:13:56.119 Curiously positive for the sidey, of course. 1972 02:13:56.199 --> 02:13:59.079 But what I'm trying to get at is again with 1973 02:13:59.159 --> 02:14:03.319 the structure. It's important to understand that for the Nestorian side, 1974 02:14:04.159 --> 02:14:07.039 price being fully manned means he must have had his 1975 02:14:07.199 --> 02:14:10.800 own human hype stations or even his human personhood. So 1976 02:14:11.960 --> 02:14:15.119 when the Nestorian says that CHRISTI is a composite hype stasis, 1977 02:14:15.199 --> 02:14:18.359 and when the Orthodox says Christ composite type stasis, and 1978 02:14:18.439 --> 02:14:21.399 when the Monopasas says this says the same, there are 1979 02:14:21.439 --> 02:14:25.319 three different meanings, three radically different meanings from the Orthodox 1980 02:14:25.359 --> 02:14:26.880 perspective's union of the two natures. 1981 02:14:27.000 --> 02:14:29.880 For a Nestorian perspective, it's a prosofect union. Right. 1982 02:14:30.039 --> 02:14:33.720 There is a composition of two hypostasis that remain. For 1983 02:14:33.840 --> 02:14:37.199 the monopseide side, it's a composition of two hype statis. 1984 02:14:37.239 --> 02:14:40.600 But one of these hype stasis is an Aristotelian accidents, 1985 02:14:40.640 --> 02:14:43.000 so to speak, it's an accident. It's not really a substance. 1986 02:14:43.039 --> 02:14:45.560 It's more like an accident. So that's kind of the 1987 02:14:45.680 --> 02:14:52.640 three different key different differences in understanding composite hypostasis. And 1988 02:14:52.720 --> 02:14:54.560 this is why it's important to kind of understand, Okay, 1989 02:14:54.840 --> 02:14:57.199 what do we mean by these terms that we use. 1990 02:14:58.960 --> 02:15:02.000 Yeah, I'm not gonna be the last paragraph in its entirety, 1991 02:15:02.079 --> 02:15:04.880 but it's basically, as for the marriology, it refuses to 1992 02:15:04.920 --> 02:15:09.079 call Mary theotokus. Unlike the Orthodox Church. A historian is 1993 02:15:09.159 --> 02:15:18.640 an Orthodox without theotokus, Okay, correct. A Nestorian is proclaiming 1994 02:15:20.159 --> 02:15:24.560 the Virgin Mary without the appellation theotokos in its exclusivity, 1995 02:15:24.840 --> 02:15:28.720 but that doesn't make them Orthodox. And so it's very 1996 02:15:28.840 --> 02:15:35.920 clear that the Metropolitan, who is quite well understanding in 1997 02:15:36.279 --> 02:15:39.439 the three tier ontology to make the distinctions that he does, 1998 02:15:39.920 --> 02:15:45.359 to basically lay out for you that these are irreconcilable christologies. 1999 02:15:46.000 --> 02:15:49.399 We are not talking about the same thing. When we 2000 02:15:49.640 --> 02:15:52.680 say that Christ is one person, we are not saying 2001 02:15:52.760 --> 02:15:55.760 the same thing. We are not professing the same faith. 2002 02:15:57.920 --> 02:16:03.079 And will get to the agreement between Rome in a 2003 02:16:03.159 --> 02:16:10.479 moment Theotokus versus Cristo tocus. So Theodora of Mopsuestia allowed 2004 02:16:10.520 --> 02:16:16.199 the use of theotokos, but only in combination with Anthropotochus, 2005 02:16:17.079 --> 02:16:21.119 and the two terms expressed different yet complementary perspectives of 2006 02:16:21.279 --> 02:16:26.359 the incarnation. So Nestorius claimed to have reconciled proponents of 2007 02:16:26.359 --> 02:16:31.319 both alternative usages by proposing Christo tokos instead has recently 2008 02:16:31.399 --> 02:16:34.799 been doubted, But that Nestorius attempted in its theology to 2009 02:16:34.879 --> 02:16:37.799 bridge the divide in that one term is essentially what 2010 02:16:37.920 --> 02:16:42.639 Theodora of Mopsuestia tried to achieve by using those two 2011 02:16:42.799 --> 02:16:48.319 terms side by side. And so Nistorius has an open 2012 02:16:48.440 --> 02:16:53.840 hostility towards the usage of theotokos in its own. 2013 02:16:53.959 --> 02:17:03.639 Right, Ja, Yeah, I think I think I can hear 2014 02:17:03.680 --> 02:17:04.239 my own sound. 2015 02:17:04.600 --> 02:17:08.360 Yeah, okay, okay, all right. 2016 02:17:09.520 --> 02:17:12.879 And so basically what's happening here is is you have 2017 02:17:14.719 --> 02:17:22.479 Nestorious and Theater representing Theodore of Mopsuestia's theology in just 2018 02:17:22.559 --> 02:17:25.639 a little bit more kind of cleaned up expressions. 2019 02:17:28.479 --> 02:17:30.040 Can you can you go back? Can you go back? 2020 02:17:30.079 --> 02:17:30.479 One start? 2021 02:17:30.559 --> 02:17:32.200 I just want to make some comments. This is a 2022 02:17:32.280 --> 02:17:36.920 very important to point out because so Theotokos. Again, as 2023 02:17:36.959 --> 02:17:41.280 I said earlier in the stream, it's not a reference 2024 02:17:41.639 --> 02:17:45.040 merely too, It's not just a statement that we make 2025 02:17:45.159 --> 02:17:50.399 to make the virgin maybe look, you know too pretty 2026 02:17:50.479 --> 02:17:53.079 upward language of her or anything like that. You can 2027 02:17:53.120 --> 02:17:55.559 see with Theodore of mop Sevestia and the stories is 2028 02:17:55.600 --> 02:17:58.120 pretty much he's basically saying what Theodore of Mops is 2029 02:17:58.120 --> 02:18:00.360 saying in a different term. Right again, this story is 2030 02:18:00.440 --> 02:18:04.280 the term Christ indicates the two natures, right, certain terms 2031 02:18:04.319 --> 02:18:07.879 like Jesus in case only the humanity, word of God indicates. 2032 02:18:07.559 --> 02:18:10.719 Only the divinity, but Christ indicates both of them. 2033 02:18:10.799 --> 02:18:12.959 So that's why he used the term chrystal tocos as 2034 02:18:13.000 --> 02:18:15.959 the as the best way to you know, that's that's 2035 02:18:16.000 --> 02:18:19.079 the firstest he's willing to go. So is it acceptable 2036 02:18:19.440 --> 02:18:22.600 to say that the virgin Mary is Teotokus in the 2037 02:18:22.639 --> 02:18:29.319 same way she is Anthropotocus? Now, despite desmight make some 2038 02:18:29.399 --> 02:18:32.040 people say, well Christ is God and man, so yeah, 2039 02:18:32.200 --> 02:18:32.479 why not? 2040 02:18:32.879 --> 02:18:36.559 But again, what are you the mother of? 2041 02:18:36.920 --> 02:18:38.719 Is the kind of questions asked? You're a mother of 2042 02:18:38.799 --> 02:18:42.239 a person, and what person is Christ? Christ is not 2043 02:18:42.760 --> 02:18:46.559 a human person like in historianism. That's why we reject 2044 02:18:46.600 --> 02:18:49.000 the term anthropotochos. It is not to reject the Christ 2045 02:18:49.040 --> 02:18:52.319 as human. Christ is human. What we are stating is 2046 02:18:52.360 --> 02:18:55.159 that Christ is a divine hypostasis. 2047 02:18:55.280 --> 02:18:56.520 He's the divine word of God. 2048 02:18:56.879 --> 02:19:00.639 Right, He's the pre existent Word of God who became 2049 02:19:00.840 --> 02:19:05.120 incarnate within the Virgin Mana. That's why the Virginia is theotokos. 2050 02:19:05.479 --> 02:19:08.479 That's why we reject crystal talkos. And again, chrystal tacos, 2051 02:19:08.680 --> 02:19:11.799 I mean biblically, the Virgin Mary is referred to as 2052 02:19:11.840 --> 02:19:14.840 the mother of Christ. But it's not a formula on 2053 02:19:14.959 --> 02:19:19.639 its own, mainly because again there are many Christs in scripture. Right, 2054 02:19:19.799 --> 02:19:22.200 What do you actually mean by crystal toalcos? What makes 2055 02:19:22.399 --> 02:19:26.200 Christ as a special? What makes Christ special in this sense? 2056 02:19:26.360 --> 02:19:29.120 There's nothing indicating that with crystal tokos. It's at best 2057 02:19:29.399 --> 02:19:32.959 doesn't really indicate anything special. At worst, it serves to 2058 02:19:33.399 --> 02:19:38.879 it serves a historian christology, right. But theotokos, that's a 2059 02:19:39.040 --> 02:19:42.559 confession that Christ is God and also a divine person. 2060 02:19:42.639 --> 02:19:46.559 He's the divine logos, right, and so there's a specific 2061 02:19:47.079 --> 02:19:49.440 aspect in Christ that we can speak of him again 2062 02:19:49.559 --> 02:19:53.840 as divine person. He's fully human, right, but he is 2063 02:19:53.879 --> 02:19:57.200 a divine person, and as Saint Maximums the Confessor says, right, 2064 02:19:57.319 --> 02:20:00.680 Christ is divine by hypostasis, but human by nature. So 2065 02:20:00.840 --> 02:20:03.120 it's a confession of the full reality of the human 2066 02:20:03.200 --> 02:20:06.319 nature of Christ. But being fully human does not mean 2067 02:20:06.479 --> 02:20:09.559 being a human person. And in fact, this proposition, this 2068 02:20:09.719 --> 02:20:12.559 idea that being fully human means being a human person 2069 02:20:12.639 --> 02:20:16.239 as well, is the proposition of Apollinarius that was denied 2070 02:20:16.239 --> 02:20:19.200 by Saint Atonatius, Saint Grigord's theologian, Saint Grigors Nizza. 2071 02:20:20.040 --> 02:20:23.399 Right, so you can trace it back there. 2072 02:20:23.520 --> 02:20:26.559 This is why the term crystal tocos and anthropotoccos, this 2073 02:20:26.719 --> 02:20:29.879 is why it is a problem. Right, It's not accepted. 2074 02:20:30.159 --> 02:20:33.280 It's why it's important to understand this. Right, the person 2075 02:20:33.360 --> 02:20:36.760 that the virgin may gave birth to is the Word 2076 02:20:36.840 --> 02:20:40.840 of God, is God the divine hypostasis. Right, So this 2077 02:20:41.000 --> 02:20:43.479 is how we must understand the divine hype states on 2078 02:20:43.479 --> 02:20:45.559 the one hand, and the compost hype station on the Again, 2079 02:20:45.600 --> 02:20:48.000 the composition of the two natures. But the divine hype 2080 02:20:48.040 --> 02:20:51.040 states is a reference to the eternally begodden word of God. 2081 02:20:52.799 --> 02:20:56.799 And also I think we should mention where people might say, well, 2082 02:20:57.079 --> 02:21:01.040 theotokos and anthropotocus are referring to the divine in human 2083 02:21:01.159 --> 02:21:05.559 natures and just circles back to your point, Well, what 2084 02:21:05.879 --> 02:21:10.040 does the Virgin Mary give birth to? Or who does 2085 02:21:10.200 --> 02:21:12.399 the Virginmaria give birth to? She doesn't give birth to natures, 2086 02:21:12.760 --> 02:21:14.440 she gives birth to a person. 2087 02:21:14.639 --> 02:21:18.840 And Saint Carole off Alexandra actually like he makes this argument, right, 2088 02:21:19.079 --> 02:21:23.479 he kind of he says, you know, no one separate 2089 02:21:23.639 --> 02:21:26.600 like if so, for example, the Virgin Mary, if you 2090 02:21:26.639 --> 02:21:29.239 want to be super technical, because we hold to a 2091 02:21:29.399 --> 02:21:32.680 creationist belief in the soul. Right, the human body is 2092 02:21:32.799 --> 02:21:35.440 generated from the parents, but the soul is created from God. 2093 02:21:36.079 --> 02:21:37.959 Right, So the Virgin Mary. 2094 02:21:37.840 --> 02:21:40.440 If you want to speak technically, right, it's only a 2095 02:21:40.559 --> 02:21:44.360 part of humanity that she generates Christ. But that doesn't 2096 02:21:44.399 --> 02:21:48.600 stop us from saying that she generates, you know, the 2097 02:21:48.719 --> 02:21:51.479 humanity of Christ, and she gives birth to Christ. Right, 2098 02:21:51.680 --> 02:21:55.200 it means generating in the sense of of course human body, right, 2099 02:21:55.319 --> 02:22:00.399 not like generation et cetera, et cetera. But the you know, 2100 02:22:00.520 --> 02:22:02.840 we for example, when we speak of a human being dying, 2101 02:22:03.879 --> 02:22:05.719 the death is the separation of the soul body, right, 2102 02:22:05.760 --> 02:22:08.239 the body dies, but we still say the whole of 2103 02:22:08.399 --> 02:22:13.280 man died right, so no one uses language in the 2104 02:22:13.360 --> 02:22:16.879 way of separating the nature is when we're supposed to 2105 02:22:16.920 --> 02:22:17.959 refer to the one person. 2106 02:22:18.120 --> 02:22:21.360 Right. This is the point that Saint Kurla Alexandria's is trying. 2107 02:22:21.159 --> 02:22:23.479 To make right, and this is why he considers this 2108 02:22:23.600 --> 02:22:26.360 to be a very important, very crucial point. So Saint 2109 02:22:26.399 --> 02:22:30.840 Carol is emphasizing that again the term tyotokis refers to 2110 02:22:30.920 --> 02:22:36.479 the person that is born right, and this reference is 2111 02:22:36.559 --> 02:22:40.360 made due to a specific part mean mainly the human 2112 02:22:40.399 --> 02:22:46.000 body that Christ hyposthetically assumed. Hyposthetic union again means that Christ, 2113 02:22:46.600 --> 02:22:50.719 that the Word of God, in his divine personhood, assumed 2114 02:22:50.879 --> 02:22:56.719 a full human nature to himself, right, And and it's 2115 02:22:57.280 --> 02:23:01.440 ontologically united to himself, right, It's it's taken up on himself. 2116 02:23:01.479 --> 02:23:03.840 It's not just an external kind of a union. He 2117 02:23:04.000 --> 02:23:09.479 really did ontologically become man, even in its limitations, right 2118 02:23:09.879 --> 02:23:14.799 though these limitations are not absolute, because Christ is still 2119 02:23:14.840 --> 02:23:19.360 God right, but rather he genuinely experienced these kinds of 2120 02:23:19.920 --> 02:23:24.120 genuine human experience, of course without sin, and this experience 2121 02:23:24.600 --> 02:23:28.440 was again revealed in the transfiguration right fully, and this 2122 02:23:28.600 --> 02:23:30.040 is kind of what we are being called to. 2123 02:23:30.159 --> 02:23:30.360 So there. 2124 02:23:30.479 --> 02:23:35.040 There's this kind of circling back to so theology at 2125 02:23:35.079 --> 02:23:37.120 play here as well. But it's very again, it's very important. 2126 02:23:37.239 --> 02:23:39.239 Why do we use the term theotokos. It's not just 2127 02:23:40.479 --> 02:23:43.239 to confess that Christ is God, it's to confess that 2128 02:23:43.360 --> 02:23:44.600 Christ is a divine person. 2129 02:23:45.079 --> 02:23:46.680 Yeah, exactly. 2130 02:23:47.600 --> 02:23:51.319 So we're almost wrapping up I guess part one this 2131 02:23:51.440 --> 02:23:54.479 one here. I don't care about the entirety of this text. 2132 02:23:54.920 --> 02:23:57.120 I give the link. You guys can look it up. 2133 02:23:57.360 --> 02:24:03.879 This is basically this so called common Christological Declaration between 2134 02:24:04.360 --> 02:24:07.399 Rome and the Assyrian Church of the East that took 2135 02:24:07.520 --> 02:24:11.520 place in nineteen ninety four. That a lot of Roman 2136 02:24:11.639 --> 02:24:16.840 Catholics will say that while you see, look, it was 2137 02:24:17.040 --> 02:24:22.600 all just a big misunderstanding. We're all saying the same thing. 2138 02:24:22.959 --> 02:24:27.520 Can't we all just get along? This is the unique 2139 02:24:27.559 --> 02:24:30.239 faith that we profess in the mystery of Christ. The 2140 02:24:30.399 --> 02:24:34.440 controversies of the past led to anathemas bearing on persons 2141 02:24:34.760 --> 02:24:39.520 and on sort in formulas. The Lord's Spirit permits us 2142 02:24:39.559 --> 02:24:42.520 to understand better today that the division brought about in 2143 02:24:42.639 --> 02:24:47.000 this way we're due in large part to misunderstandings. So 2144 02:24:47.239 --> 02:24:50.719 that's just a bunch of nonsense. We clearly see there 2145 02:24:50.799 --> 02:25:00.120 is no misunderstanding. But in this common Christological declaration, it 2146 02:25:00.200 --> 02:25:04.280 is said that both the Rome and the Church of 2147 02:25:04.319 --> 02:25:10.840 the East the Assyrians profess that there is one person 2148 02:25:11.360 --> 02:25:16.840 that is Christ. But you read this declaration and you 2149 02:25:16.920 --> 02:25:22.639 ask yourself the question, what is meant by one person? 2150 02:25:24.600 --> 02:25:29.200 And nowhere will you see this defined. Nowhere will you 2151 02:25:29.399 --> 02:25:36.000 see this understanding explicated by either party. This is quite 2152 02:25:36.159 --> 02:25:46.680 literally word concept fallacy, because we see that we do 2153 02:25:46.879 --> 02:25:48.799 not profess the same faith. And when I say we, 2154 02:25:49.399 --> 02:25:54.840 in this particular case, Rome would profess a one hippostatic, 2155 02:25:55.040 --> 02:26:01.760 divine only appolition for Christ. And this is not reconcilable 2156 02:26:02.079 --> 02:26:06.559 with a three tier ontology of the Church of the East, 2157 02:26:06.959 --> 02:26:13.159 and even the that hierarchy. The metropolitan for the Church 2158 02:26:13.239 --> 02:26:15.479 of the East, he is telling you, look, we don't 2159 02:26:15.520 --> 02:26:19.319 believe the same thing. The Matagantha is telling you, look, 2160 02:26:19.920 --> 02:26:22.879 we don't believe the same thing. So this is a 2161 02:26:22.959 --> 02:26:27.280 false union. This is a false union through and through. 2162 02:26:27.959 --> 02:26:31.280 And you cannot look at these declarations and then start 2163 02:26:31.319 --> 02:26:38.879 speaking about oh, Apostolic Christianity. No, it's not Apostolic Christianity. 2164 02:26:38.959 --> 02:26:44.120 You have churches that have deviated that they're not professing 2165 02:26:44.200 --> 02:26:44.879 the faith. 2166 02:26:45.120 --> 02:26:45.200 And. 2167 02:26:47.000 --> 02:26:52.719 Like it or not, they're not apostolic. So was it 2168 02:26:52.879 --> 02:26:57.959 all just a big misunderstanding? Well, if you're gonna say 2169 02:26:57.959 --> 02:27:01.639 that it was all just a big misunderstand did the 2170 02:27:01.719 --> 02:27:05.559 Bishop of Rome, Saint Celestine, and in the Bishop of Alexandria, 2171 02:27:05.639 --> 02:27:13.280 Saint Cyril, both get it wrong? What Saint Celestine wrote 2172 02:27:14.319 --> 02:27:20.760 to Nestorius, We have approved and approved the faith of 2173 02:27:20.840 --> 02:27:25.360 the Bishop of the Church of Alexandria, and you, Nestorius, 2174 02:27:25.760 --> 02:27:30.559 who have been amonished by him, must again share our 2175 02:27:30.680 --> 02:27:34.520 beliefs if you wish to share our fellowship. If you 2176 02:27:34.680 --> 02:27:39.680 are to demonstrate agreement with this brother, condemning everything you 2177 02:27:39.799 --> 02:27:43.120 have held here, there too, we require you to preach 2178 02:27:43.239 --> 02:27:46.840 at once what you see him to preach. Therefore, be 2179 02:27:47.040 --> 02:27:51.760 fully aware of this our sentence, unless you preach about Christ, 2180 02:27:51.959 --> 02:27:55.959 our God, that which is held by both the Roman 2181 02:27:56.680 --> 02:28:02.079 and Alexandrian and the Universal Catholic Church, and what was 2182 02:28:02.200 --> 02:28:05.440 also most firmly held by the Holy Church of the 2183 02:28:05.479 --> 02:28:10.040 City of Constantinople, until you, and by a public and 2184 02:28:10.120 --> 02:28:14.399 written profession, condemn the perfidious novelty that tries to divide 2185 02:28:14.799 --> 02:28:18.879 what venerable scripture unites by the tenth day counting from 2186 02:28:18.920 --> 02:28:21.200 the first day of this indictment becoming known to you. 2187 02:28:22.120 --> 02:28:24.319 You are to be aware that you are expelled from 2188 02:28:24.360 --> 02:28:30.639 the communion of the Universal Catholic Church. And then you 2189 02:28:30.840 --> 02:28:35.680 have the Ecumenical Council, guided by Holy Spirit, did it 2190 02:28:35.799 --> 02:28:40.280 get it wrong? The Holy Council assembled at Ephesus, by 2191 02:28:40.360 --> 02:28:42.760 the grace of God, according to the decree of our 2192 02:28:42.840 --> 02:28:48.000 most pious and Christ loving Emperors to Nestorius, the New Judas, 2193 02:28:48.920 --> 02:28:53.200 be informed that because of your impious preaching and violation 2194 02:28:53.319 --> 02:28:56.399 of the canons, you have been deposed by the Holy 2195 02:28:56.559 --> 02:28:59.559 Council in accordance with the laws of the Church, on 2196 02:28:59.639 --> 02:29:02.280 the twenty second of the present month of June, and 2197 02:29:02.399 --> 02:29:08.799 that you are stripped of every ecclesiastical rank. So no, 2198 02:29:09.120 --> 02:29:13.079 the Ecumenical Council didn't get it wrong. Saint Cyril didn't 2199 02:29:13.120 --> 02:29:18.000 get it wrong. Saint Celestine didn't get it wrong. They 2200 02:29:18.079 --> 02:29:26.120 got it right. Nestorius taught Nestorianism. The Church of the 2201 02:29:26.280 --> 02:29:33.799 East is nestorian, It teaches Nestorianism. It is not an 2202 02:29:33.840 --> 02:29:40.200 Apostolic church. So anybody who promotes the Church of the 2203 02:29:40.360 --> 02:29:49.440 East as apostolic is promoting garbage, is promoting heresy. We 2204 02:29:49.600 --> 02:29:52.760 are not in communion with that church. We will never 2205 02:29:52.879 --> 02:29:56.239 be in communion with that church insofar as it holds 2206 02:29:56.319 --> 02:30:00.200 to what it does as professed by the madiganthan Yuah 2207 02:30:02.079 --> 02:30:08.319 and likewise the Orientals. Anybody who holds that the Oriental 2208 02:30:08.440 --> 02:30:16.360 churches ow are Apostolic is preaching garbage. They are not apostolic, 2209 02:30:16.520 --> 02:30:19.680 and we will not hold into a union with them, 2210 02:30:19.920 --> 02:30:25.799 because we are clear in understanding the issues that divide us. 2211 02:30:26.479 --> 02:30:32.239 It is not just a matter of incorrect language or misunderstandings. 2212 02:30:32.479 --> 02:30:36.680 The misunderstandings are by idiots who don't understand the metaphysics, 2213 02:30:37.319 --> 02:30:41.239 thereby people who are illiterate and don't actually understand what 2214 02:30:41.319 --> 02:30:45.159 the discussion is about. If you take the time to learn, 2215 02:30:45.959 --> 02:30:49.879 if you take the time to study your faith seriously, 2216 02:30:51.000 --> 02:30:54.799 then you will see that the only apostolic church is 2217 02:30:54.879 --> 02:30:59.559 the Orthodox Church, and we will not compromise. We stand 2218 02:31:00.040 --> 02:31:03.520 firm in the faith, and we preach the faith. We 2219 02:31:03.799 --> 02:31:15.760 uphold what the councils have taught. Nomenclature alone is insufficient, Okay. 2220 02:31:16.280 --> 02:31:22.399 You cannot just simply do keyword searches and say, oh, 2221 02:31:22.639 --> 02:31:27.639 look at what this person said. What is the theology 2222 02:31:27.760 --> 02:31:33.399 behind those words? What is the underlying metaphysical paradigm? Do 2223 02:31:33.559 --> 02:31:40.479 you actually understand what these historic people taught? Do you 2224 02:31:40.680 --> 02:31:45.840 understand what the ecumenical councils taught? Do you accept that 2225 02:31:45.959 --> 02:31:50.920 the Ecumenical councils were guided by the Holy Spirit? How 2226 02:31:51.639 --> 02:31:55.719 are you certain that you're not committing word concept fallacies 2227 02:31:56.120 --> 02:32:01.600 or equivocating on certain words? Okay? Are you willing to 2228 02:32:01.799 --> 02:32:07.040 recognize that these issues are not just word games or 2229 02:32:07.120 --> 02:32:09.280 that you can just say that they're because of certain 2230 02:32:09.319 --> 02:32:14.200 political circumstances. Are you willing to recognize that there are 2231 02:32:14.600 --> 02:32:24.799 fundamentally irreconcilable differences theologically and metaphysically. Okay? Can you recognize 2232 02:32:25.559 --> 02:32:30.520 when being able to profess a particular doctrine actually precludes 2233 02:32:31.280 --> 02:32:34.879 is precluded due to your underlying theology and metaphysics, despite 2234 02:32:34.920 --> 02:32:38.040 that you want to profess that doctrine. By this, I 2235 02:32:38.200 --> 02:32:43.360 mean you'll say, no, we don't profess Nestorianism, for example 2236 02:32:44.239 --> 02:32:46.479 in the Church of the East. Well, no, look at 2237 02:32:46.520 --> 02:32:51.520 your metaphysics. Understand your metaphysics and understand how the logical 2238 02:32:51.799 --> 02:32:58.440 entailment of what your system is set up to hold 2239 02:32:58.520 --> 02:33:02.280 to it is actually it precludes for you concluding what 2240 02:33:02.440 --> 02:33:07.760 you want to conclude, Okay, have you developed a paradigm 2241 02:33:08.200 --> 02:33:14.239 that is consistent, that has meaningful explanatory power, or are 2242 02:33:14.280 --> 02:33:18.360 you just putting random quote minds in together and taking 2243 02:33:18.479 --> 02:33:22.959 ideas out of context. So all of these questions, this 2244 02:33:23.159 --> 02:33:25.239 is the whole point of why we want to do 2245 02:33:25.719 --> 02:33:29.879 this extended series of streams, is to really flesh out 2246 02:33:30.159 --> 02:33:33.239 the Orthodox positions, the Oriental and the Church of the 2247 02:33:33.280 --> 02:33:37.159 East positions and demonstrate to you that we are not 2248 02:33:37.399 --> 02:33:41.120 teaching the same thing, We are not compatible with each other, 2249 02:33:41.799 --> 02:33:44.479 and if we're not teaching the same thing, then not 2250 02:33:44.760 --> 02:33:49.239 everyone can be apostolic. It's not just a mechanical thing. 2251 02:33:49.319 --> 02:33:52.399 Like Jay said at the beginning. To be apostolic, you 2252 02:33:52.680 --> 02:33:56.799 have to uphold the correct faith, and this is not 2253 02:33:57.159 --> 02:34:04.959 about having just some kind of sophisticated system that is irrelevant. 2254 02:34:05.600 --> 02:34:10.360 Those people who can understand these things have an obligation 2255 02:34:10.559 --> 02:34:13.479 to understand them and to explain it to other people 2256 02:34:13.559 --> 02:34:16.920 to understand that they can better understand it. You cannot 2257 02:34:17.040 --> 02:34:22.920 just relegate these as unnecessary details. When you look at 2258 02:34:22.959 --> 02:34:29.639 the ecumenical councils, they went to great detail to explain 2259 02:34:30.040 --> 02:34:32.000 what's happening theologically