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Speaker 1: Was linktern a little bit in the title. For whatever reason,

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YouTube doesn't like it when you try to add people

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in live stream titles, so I'll add it after the

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show's complete. We did have I think a great response

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twenty two thousand for our initial four hour talk, largely

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from Kai, and of course we had a lot of

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good input from David as well, and I think I

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added some stuff too. We're going to continue with still

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part one. We don't think we're going to completely finish

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part one tonight, so remember this will be an ongoing series.

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I'll try to eventually put it into a playlist. It'll

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be its own kind of again, sort of college course

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on the topic. Now, we haven't really gotten into the

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specifics of everything yet. We really only touched on some

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of the introductory issues with the Syrian Church of the

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East and the Storian positions last time. So please be

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patient and don't expect that every question must immediately be

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dealt with on tonight's stream or the next stream or whatever.

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I guarante to you every question that you have because

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of the exhaustive thoroughness of this lecture series. Whatever your

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questions are, they will eventually come up. So please be patient.

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Also to the Orientals so called mods. If they spam

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the chat like they did last time, in act ridiculous

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as they are wonted to do, please just immediately boot them.

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We are looking for honest, extensive discussions on these topics.

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We're not trying to play the gotcha game where you

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clip something that's thirty seconds. That's what all the low

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tier Muslims, the low tier Roman Catholics, the load tier

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Orientals do is look for low tier thirty second clips.

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That's not what we do. We do the extensive, thorough

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college course model here. And so Kai is going to

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pick back up where we left off last time. And Kai,

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if there's anything else you want to say before you

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kick us off, or David as well, feel free to interject.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I just want to say thanks a lot, Jay. I'm

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really looking forward to continuing this series. And just to reiterate,

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this is the second installment of part one. We're probably

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going to be doing three streams, maybe four streams on

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part one, depends on how long it takes us to

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go through all of the slides. One thing that I

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would say is I think I'm going to expand the

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series for what I had planned to do. Last time

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we discussed some stuff on ecumenism. I did a community

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post asking for a vote if you guys would like

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to see something of that, and I think there is

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definitely some interest there. So I think at some point,

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I don't know where in the series I want to

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put it in, but we'll have a topic dedicated specifically

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to ecumenism and to discuss this whole notion that is

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starting to kind of make some grounds of so called

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Apostolic Christianity, as if to imply that the Oriental Churches,

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the Assyrian Church of the East, the Roman Catholics, as

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if these are Appostolic churches. So we vehemently deny any

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Apostolicity to them. It's not just about tracing a particular

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lineage to the Apostles that makes you apostolic. And I

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think this is a very dangerous push by certain people

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in the online sphere that are trying to make it

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as if all of these churches have some kind of

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validity to them. It's very important to emphasize as Orthodox

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that the Orthodox Church, or if you want to call

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it the Eastern Orthodox Church, we just refer to it

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as the Orthodox Church really is the only church that

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you can belong to to say that you are in

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the body of Christ, that it is really the only

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church where you will find valid sacraments, and outside of

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that you cannot be guaranteed salvation. So that's just one

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point there that I wanted to bring up, and I

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may have Father Michael join us for that. He's a

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very big proponent to speak against ecumenism. He's very knowledgeable

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in the top topic. So I look forward in doing

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that stream.

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Speaker 1: Apart from that, Kai, they're saying that your voice is

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a little too low. Could you jack back up what

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you turned down?

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Speaker 3: So I just increase my gain.

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Speaker 1: That's fine right there, That should be good right there, okay, perfect.

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Also the yeah, the point there, I think is that

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we see a lot of people talking about this idea

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of just generic so called apostolic Christianity, as if episodic

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succession is some sort of mechanistic transmission that doesn't necessarily

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correlate to the faith that one holds. One of the

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big differences there is that Orthodox theology believes that not

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only is a succession necessary for the church, but also

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the Orthodox faith is necessary, and so both things are needed,

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and there's no such thing as a kind of a

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Roman Catholic mechanistic model where everybody has the Orthodox faith

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just by virtue of being ordained in some line of people. No,

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you can have succession and depart from the faith, and

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so then you are no longer in the succession because

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you're not teaching the faith of the apostles. It's that simple.

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And also I would add that on that topic of

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a humanism, Tim Honeycutt has posted a audio version of

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a publication from the Athos Monastery of Grigoriu and it

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has a statement which is the orthodox, fully orthodox statement

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on what Christology is. I'll put that in the links

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there as well if you want another sort of just

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a backup topic discussion from you know, prominent I guess

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monastics on Athos making all the points you hear us

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make today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, data, was there anything you wanted to chime in on?

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Speaker 2: Nothing really, I guess specific. It's kind of just so

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far as presentation is pretty much at all those long introduction,

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it is I think a necessary introduction to kind of

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get Georgsodox point of view across in a very clear way.

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Speaker 4: Of course, there's still going to be people that are

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not going to get it.

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Speaker 2: But it's important to point out where the developments and

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I've speaken about not in terms of developments of douction,

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but where the developments of the understanding of certain terms

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and certain ideas, the chronology of it, and also.

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Speaker 4: The conceptual mindset of it.

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Speaker 2: And in terms of the talk that Jay was talking

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about from Timothy Undcuts channel.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely that work is.

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Speaker 2: I will say, very important, and you're seeing a lot

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of different works coming out in terms of how to

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understand an offset issue. And I took to listen to it,

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and as Jay said, I mean, it's pretty much a

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lot of it is pretty much what I have been

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talking about, you know, since twenty twenty on this issue.

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So it goes through I mean, it's not just kind

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of me kind of coming with these things up. It's

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what exists in the literature. And the problem is this

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literature has been you know, kept away, and it was

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kind of hidden, the kind of obscure to find for

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quite some time.

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Speaker 4: But it's coming out.

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Speaker 2: It's coming out, and people are starting to talk about these,

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you know, very important issues. I think once again, ever

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since you know, what we saw in the eighties and

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nineties with relation to the supposed union conversations, and in

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terms of you know, the ecumenism stuff. Again, the idea

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that there are these multiple genuine Christian churches and they

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somehow have this share in the Holy Spirit, and they

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all partake in this generic universal like Platonic idea or

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form of generic Christianity. It's it's just completely unacceptable, right,

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It's completely it's not part of the experiential theology that

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you see that is preserved within the your stock church. Right,

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So at start succession, the point is it is to

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preserve the meaning of what has been handed down to

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the apostles from Christ themselves.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: There aren't multiple different perennial meanings, right there, There's one faith,

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one Lord, one Baptism, as Saint Paul says. And this church,

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which is the pillar and ground of truth, as Saint

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Paul also says.

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Speaker 4: Is one, just like Christ is one.

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Speaker 2: So when we speaking about, you know, how Christ is one, right,

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this extends to the church as well.

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Speaker 4: It's not really.

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Speaker 2: Honest to say that, you know, Christ is one, but

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the Church is meaning. That's it's not really a good outlook,

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it's an inconsistent outlook.

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Speaker 4: And so this is why all of this is very crucially,

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very important.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's another form of branch theory. And if you

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heard yesterday's stream, I had a pretty heated debate with

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an Anglican trying to defend branch theory. So it's really

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basically what it is. But anyway, Ky, do you want

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to go ahead and start?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, just before I start, I want to just make

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another preliminary comment. After the first stream, it looks like

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the Monophesites, the Orientals, they had a little bit of

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a meltdown. They started putting out some kind of like

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refutation streams. I mean, we didn't even get through part

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one and we have like a nine part, ten part

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series where we're going to discuss all of this stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and here they are.

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Speaker 3: They think as if we've played all our cards, if

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we have everything laid out. I'm not going to play

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their game in terms of getting caught up in all

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of the details. Right now, We're going to go through

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this series and just do a very guided treatment of

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all of these topics. Some of their so called attempts

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at refuting us will just naturally play out to demonstrate

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that they basically have nothing. But we will circle back

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at some point and just demonstrate the the nonsense that

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they're that they're putting out. So don't worry. At some

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point we will address all the stuff that they're that

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they're talking about. We're just gonna do it on our terms. Okay,

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we have the upper hand in this, right. We will

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take the time and we will do a thorough treatment,

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and we will demonstrate the absolute stupidity of the Oriental position,

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the Oriental argumentation, and just really drive the point home

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that these people are idiots. They don't know metaphysics, they

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just quote mine. They have no idea what they are

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talking about.

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Speaker 1: So that also, and they're just using these discussions to

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get attention for their channels. That's basically with it, of course.

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Speaker 3: And then they're they're making memes and all this stuff.

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I mean, go ahead, make your memes. I don't really

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care about that, because that's all you guys can do.

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So to launch in So what we talked about before,

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we started off looking at triadology and kind of setting

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the stage for the orthodox Christological paradigm, and we're contrasting

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that with the Orientals and the Nestorians, and now we're

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kind of building it up. We ended the last stream

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with basically looking at Saint Cyril of Alexandria in his

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letter to Empitheodosius, and this was some those were these

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are some key statements that he makes where he's not

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relying on specific terms to set up the paradigm. He's

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telling you in concepts to understand what exactly is being

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communicated by him, how to understand Christ. And so this

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is very important because we're not building our paradigm based

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on certain terms. We're building our paradigm based on ideas,

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and then these terms that we use are meant to

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reflect these ideas. And now when we continue building up

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this paradigm, we're going to look at some of the

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key texts that really make it very clear what the

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Orthodox position is. And one of these documents it is

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Canon five of the Fifth Ecumenical Council, the Council in

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five point fifty three, and this ties into one of

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the early slides from part from the first Stream that

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I was saying how the Fifth Ecumenical Council is basically

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like a litmus test whether or not you subscribe to

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a Nestorian reading of Chalcidon of the Fourth Council or not,

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because at issue here is the Church of the East.

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The Assyrian Church, whati we call is the Historian Church,

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and we rightly call it the Historian Church because it

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is a historian. It does teach historianism. Well, what the

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Orientals will do is they will say that, okay, you

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see these Nestorians. They agree with Chalcedon, and therefore CalCon

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is an historian. And so this first dream really kind

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of put to bed how stupid that kind of reasoning is.

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You can agree on wording but have completely different understandings

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of the details of those wordings. And so when we

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look at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, it starts making things

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a lot more clear how Calcedon should be properly understood

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and how you avoid Nestorianism from the Council of Calcedon.

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And so in this canon, it's very clear that to

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hold the Orthodox position, you cannot in any way subscribe

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to this notion that in Christ are many hypostasies. And

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this is very important because this idea of having multi

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hypostasis in Christ is found in both the Oriental position

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and the Nestorian position. The main differentiator between these two

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is that the Nestorians maintain that these hypostases are juxtaposed,

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they maintain their complete identities, whereas the Orientals allow a

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combination of the hypostasis to result in a tertium quid,

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a new hypostasis. And so this is something that we reject.

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This is something that can in five makes absolutely clear.

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You cannot hold to any notion of multiple hypostasies in Christ.

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And you must profess that there is only one hypostasis,

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one person of Christ. And this hypostasis is what is

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in fleshed. It's not that you have some kind of

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a hypostasis that takes on accidents of human nature and

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somehow conjoins with the divine hypostasis. That hypostasis of Christ

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is divine only. And there is no way you can

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get around that. If you speak of any other kind

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of epostasis in Christ, then you are not Orthodox. Is

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there anything either of you want to add to that.

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Speaker 1: No, that's a great statement of fact. That and that

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vindicates as we've been saying for many years now. The

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Fifth Council really demonstrates the error of not just these

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online the historian positions, but and an off side positions

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meophys out whatever. It also refuses the other people in

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the so called Orthodox circles that are confused on this.

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Speaker 3: All right, If there's nothing, David, I'm going to move on.

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So we take a look here at some more explicit statements.

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We'll look at one from Saint Justinian and per Saint Justinian,

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I put the entire text up for context, and I

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get it. Some of you guys who are watching the

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stream on the phone, it's very small font for you,

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you can't read it. If you're watch in your browser

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and you make the stream full screen, then you will

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be able to read the text quite nicely. But I

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am thinking at some point in the future I will

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make the slides publicly available, so then you guys can

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have direct access to that. So I'll just read the

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highlighted portions because those are the ones that are more

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that are more relevant. So Saint Justinian, he's saying the

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hypostatic union means that the divine logos, that is to say,

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one hypostasis of the three divine hypostasis is not united

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to a man who has his own hypostasis before the union,

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but that in the womb of the Holy Virgin, the

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Divine Logos made for himself in his own hypostasis flesh

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that was taken from her, and that was endowed with

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the reasonable and intellectual soul i e. Human nature. So

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this is really important because what it's saying here is

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this understanding of hypostatic union, or using the term hypostatic union,

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is something that we share in common with the Orientals,

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but we understand it completely differently. So what Saint Justinian

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is saying here is the hypostatus, that the hypostatus, that hypostasis,

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that is, Christ is the subject for his infleshment, and

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it's in that where the union occurs of the natures

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in that one hypostasis. The Orientals understand hypostatic union to

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mean that you have two hypostases, one that is particular

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to the divine nature, another one that is particular to

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the human nature, that combine in such a way to

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give you a single hypostasis. Though the properties of the

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divine and human do not intermingle, according to them, but

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nevertheless you do result in one hypostasis coming together, and

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that is where they find quote unquote a union.

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Speaker 1: When you say, according to them, they do not intermingle,

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you must mean they're the the Storian side, right, because

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the other side says they do intermingle.

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Speaker 3: Well, they would say that you could. So the Orientals

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would say that they the hypostasis come together, but that

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you can still distinguish the divine properties and the human properties,

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so that there isn't some kind of a new while

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like a new divino human property. There is a tertim quid.

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But they will say that there is still a distinction

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in the properties. Now we our critique is is that

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this is an inconsistent position, right, that this does not

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make sense. It doesn't follow from the metaphysics. You can't

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avoid having a mixture. So I'm just saying this is

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the way. They're just trying to play the word games

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by saying, well, we're going to combine these hypostasies, but

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we don't really actually have a mingling, but we can

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only talk about one. It's like you can't have it

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both ways. So what you're saying doesn't actually follow from

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the metaphysics right that you're professing. It's exactly the same

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way how we critique the historians, where they say, well,

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no we don't believe in two persons, we believe in

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one person. Well, first of all, what do you mean

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by one person? But no, you guys want to have

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a certain result. But your metaphysics doesn't allow it, and

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so you're actually holding to an inconsistent position. Absolutely, okay,

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And so now Saint Justinian, he just ends this portion.

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He says, for the fact of the matter is that

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whenever this father said one nature of the logos incarnate,

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so here he's referring to Saint Athanasius, who would use

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that phrase one nature of the logos incarnate. He used

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the term quote unquote nature in this formula for hypostasis,

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meaning that the way we understand one nature of the

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logos incarnate, we mean that Christ is a single subject,

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that divine hypostasis is the subject for his infleshment. In

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the writings in which he makes use of this formula,

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he frequently follows it by adding either the terms sun

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or logos or only begotten, which are not names that

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indicate nature, but the hypostasis or prosopon. So this is

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really beautiful that you see in Saint Cyril is Saint

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Cyril goes out of his way to supplement what he says. Additionally,

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with two, three, four.

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Speaker 1: Others Cyril or Justinian.

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Speaker 3: No, no, Saint just Onion is making reference to previous sabers.

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Saint Cyril and Saint Anthonasius.

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Speaker 1: Oh I heard you talking about Athanasius. Where's where's the seril?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? I was, I was.

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Speaker 2: I also wanted to add, like, in terms of one

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nature statement, it's not found in Saint Anthonasius, It's found

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in Saint Carol. But there are the press is having

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one nature that are a poonym, because the Polonais himself

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was actually the first one to say that Christ was

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one nature.

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Speaker 4: Exactly to ada on Kye's point.

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Speaker 2: What he's trying to make, what he's trying to say

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here is is that the one nature of the word

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incarnate that statement of Saint Carole of Alexander the way

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he understand it. First of all, he qualifies it with

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it being in fleshed, and he even goes as far

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as to say, if you didn't make this qualification, then yes,

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we will be saying something heretical. So he actually implies

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that you know, just like any formula, that there needs

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to be qualifications. And the point that Saint Justin is

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making we know that the term one nature here does

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not refer to nature in the sense that we use

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it as you know, essence or substance. It means you know,

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a person because the terms sun logos only begots in.

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These are names. These are terms that refer to the hypostasis.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the first to the person.

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Speaker 2: It does not refer to natural properties. Right, we don't

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refer to the divine nature as sun.

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Speaker 4: Father.

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Speaker 2: The Father is not a sun, right, the Father is

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not the only begotten for example, Right, Yeah, these names

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are proper to the person, the word of God himself.

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Speaker 1: What alone, Right, what Kai was probably referring to was

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the at the time of Nicea, and if you read

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the Nicene Creed, this is why hypostasis refers to nature.

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They'll say that, you know, there's one there's one nature

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in the godhead, one hypostasis. That's just because the word

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is referring to at that time, a particular nature. And

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it's after the capp of Dosans that the word takes

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on a more precise meaning. But Cyril at times, as

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David is saying, might use that term for just a

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particular nature. However, in the case that we're looking at,

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that particular is nature is particularized by the person of

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the word. So it's it's it's not an either or

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in the sense of like, well, you only have one

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way that you could use the word hyposthasis. Sometimes it's

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used in this more nuanced specific sense to refer to

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a particular the person that has the nature. And that's

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the whole point here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And also like to add throughout the Krillian writings,

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like in terms of the Nestorian controversy, you need to

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understand how he specifically uses certain terms. So one certain

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terminology that he uses is that he'll refer to the

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divine nature as Christ's own nature. And I mean he

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speaks about the human nature. He does sometimes use the

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term nature for it, but a lot of times he

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kind of just refers to it in various different terms.

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And the reason the reason why he does this is

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to emphasize is that what he means by the divine

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nature of being his own nature, he's actually referring to

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the fact that the Word of God is a divine person. Right,

397
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That's kind of what he's trying to point hope, you know,

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point towards in relation to you know, the partner Storman

399
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position and even the Pulinarian position.

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Speaker 4: Is on the one hand, he's trying to.

401
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Speaker 2: Stand on the fact that all of these activities, all

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of these things that Christ does, it refers to the

403
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Word of God, right, that Jesus Christ is the Word

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of God.

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Speaker 4: Right, they're the identical person.

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Speaker 2: And so he's trying to establish that while also establishing

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the reality of Christ's humanity.

408
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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: So he'll speak about, you know, Christ assuming hyposthetically the

410
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body and soul, and that he acts in accordance with

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his human nature. And he'll even argues, for example that,

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for example, in certain passages of Scripture.

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Speaker 4: When Scripture says the word flesh.

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Speaker 2: Argue, this means man, right, includes you know, it's about

415
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the body and the soul as well, in order to

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showcase first of all that he's not a pollinarian because

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he affirms that Christ has a soul, but also at

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the same time he affirms that this is the divine hypostasis,

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the Word of God himself that he's speaking about. So

420
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this is one example that's really important to understand why

421
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seeing Curl uses this kind of terminology.

422
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Speaker 4: Now, of course, as.

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Speaker 2: We're going to see in the presentation in the future

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future presentations, this terminology is understood in a very different

425
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light when we look at the on.

426
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Speaker 4: Off sadd interpretation of it.

427
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Speaker 2: Right, So keep, you know, keep that somewhere in your

428
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mind as we're going with this presentation.

429
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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, just to kind of clarify what I was saying,

430
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is so when I say Athanasius synathnesis using this same

431
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kind of formula, you have to keep in mind that

432
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at the time, so not discounting what Jay and David

433
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had said with regards to the forgeries, at the time

434
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it was believed that this was an appropriate phraseology to

435
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be used within an Orthodox context, and so I make

436
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that attribution in that sense of the word. Though we

437
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,200
do need to recognize it's a Pollinarian origin, and though

438
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it hasn't a Pollinarian origin, there is a very clear

439
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Orthodox way of understanding that, and the supplementation by terms

440
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additional to its usage really kind of drives the point

441
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home how we're supposed to be understanding this. So we

442
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look at another another instance from Saint Justinian, and this

443
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is actually made by a footnote by Russia, who was

444
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the one to translate on the person of Christ, and

445
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he's encapsulating the way the Christology is understood, and he's saying,

446
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the hypostatsis of Christ is the divine Logos, who is

447
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himself Jesus. So that we see that when we're talking

448
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about the hypostasis of Christ. We're talking of a divine

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only hypostasis. There is no additional hypostatic component, if you will,

450
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or element to Christ. And the term composite Christ moreover

451
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refers to the divine logos, not to the divine nature,

452
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and is simply a way of saying that the divine

453
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Logos becomes incarnate by adding to his previously divine mode

454
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of existence a human mode of existence, taking on himself

455
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on his hypostasis all the attributes and properties of human

456
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nature without becoming a human hypostasis. So this is going

457
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to lead into a future stream where we're going to

458
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go into understanding the appellation composite Christ and fleshing that

459
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out how we can make a proper Orthodox understanding of that.

460
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Speaker 1: Add to the composite hypostasis between the Orthodox and the

461
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Orientals has very different meanings, as Kay's pointing out here.

462
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For the Orientals, it can mean that the person of

463
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the word the hypostasis itself becomes now a new tertiam quid,

464
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a new product of the union, in the sense that

465
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he underwent substantial change, and in fact, one of the

466
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,400
guys calling in you've heard him basically trying to go

467
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down that route a while back. That's the false reading

468
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that we do not accept. Composite hypistasis means that what

469
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he possesses is two what's to Nature's hence, it's just

470
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a restatement of the meaning of diophysite. Diophysite means two natures,

471
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that's all it means.

472
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is really going to be very important

473
00:28:48,559 --> 00:28:53,440
to understand how the Oriental charge against the Orthodox of

474
00:28:53,519 --> 00:28:59,079
Nestorianism holds no weight whatsoever because what exactly is too

475
00:28:59,519 --> 00:29:04,079
If we're saying that you have substantially one hypostasis, that

476
00:29:04,319 --> 00:29:09,279
is Christ divine only, well, where do you have two persons?

477
00:29:09,519 --> 00:29:12,799
Because Thestorianism is two persons.

478
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,279
Speaker 1: Two subjects, right, two.

479
00:29:14,119 --> 00:29:19,279
Speaker 3: Subjects exactly, two clearly defined subjects. And it's impossible to

480
00:29:19,319 --> 00:29:21,519
have that reading on the Orthodox context.

481
00:29:21,599 --> 00:29:26,279
Speaker 2: Now, yes, I also want to add really quickly, just

482
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,200
a very quick demonstration of the importance of understanding that

483
00:29:30,279 --> 00:29:32,640
Christ is a divine person on the one hand, that

484
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,559
the crisis divine human and how to understand as you know,

485
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,400
kan j pointed out, the composite hype stasis refers to

486
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,839
the composition of the hypesetic union of the two natures

487
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,279
that's the reference to. But we need to understand from

488
00:29:45,279 --> 00:29:49,839
the orthodox perspective, right, it is completely heretical to refer to,

489
00:29:49,839 --> 00:29:52,880
for example, the Virgin Mary as anthropotokos, right, the mother

490
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,960
of the man. Well, why is that wrong? Because isn't

491
00:29:56,039 --> 00:29:56,920
Christ man?

492
00:29:57,119 --> 00:29:57,319
Speaker 4: Right?

493
00:29:57,799 --> 00:30:02,079
Speaker 2: The reason is because this ter in how you're supposed

494
00:30:02,119 --> 00:30:05,799
to refer to the Virgin Mary. It refers to the person, right,

495
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,720
That's that's one of the main points that we see.

496
00:30:09,599 --> 00:30:11,480
And you know the sour has tried to go around

497
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,480
this by saying, oh, you know, we can call her

498
00:30:13,559 --> 00:30:16,519
mother of Christ, which isn't really especially it doesn't really

499
00:30:16,559 --> 00:30:17,480
convey anything new.

500
00:30:18,359 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 4: And there are many Christs in scripture, right, which Christ? Right?

501
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 2: But if you talk about, you know, the Mother of God,

502
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,359
when it picks out Jesus Christ, right, that picks out.

503
00:30:27,319 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 4: Jesus Christ as God.

504
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 2: But the reason why we use the term Mother of

505
00:30:31,039 --> 00:30:35,559
God isn't just to be scandalous or because we have this.

506
00:30:35,799 --> 00:30:37,519
You know, we obviously you know a lot of the

507
00:30:37,559 --> 00:30:40,759
Virgin Mary, and it's not just for that reason. It's

508
00:30:40,799 --> 00:30:43,400
also to confess that Christ is a divine person.

509
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 4: Right.

510
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,319
Speaker 2: So this is one example in which we can refer

511
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,359
to Christ in a specific way to his divinity. But

512
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,839
we don't make a reference to the Virgin Mary as

513
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,319
again just mother of the man. And it's again it's

514
00:30:59,359 --> 00:31:01,519
not proper to say this. It's not even will I

515
00:31:01,559 --> 00:31:03,160
believe it go as far as I say it's for

516
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,720
the most part, it will be incorrect to say because

517
00:31:06,359 --> 00:31:09,119
the person she gave birth to is not a human person.

518
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 4: It's a divine person.

519
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 2: And if you're talking about a theanthropic person, right, divine

520
00:31:14,279 --> 00:31:17,640
human person, that is again a reference to the natures

521
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,640
of Christ, right that he is in a sense composed

522
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,920
of in the hypostatic union. It is not bringing in

523
00:31:25,119 --> 00:31:30,319
another human person or human personality into Christ. That's an

524
00:31:30,319 --> 00:31:34,519
important distinction to make. And the you know, Theotoko's term

525
00:31:35,119 --> 00:31:37,359
is one illustration of why that's important.

526
00:31:39,519 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks so much for that, David. In terms of anthropotocus,

527
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,079
I do have slides that I'm going to get to

528
00:31:45,079 --> 00:31:48,519
and we will talk about this specifically and how it

529
00:31:48,559 --> 00:31:53,880
relates to the Church of the East and Nestorianism. Some

530
00:31:54,039 --> 00:31:58,160
other statements I'm actually going to pull from the Catechism

531
00:31:58,359 --> 00:32:01,920
of the Roman Catholic Church. And though we as Orthodox

532
00:32:02,039 --> 00:32:08,519
have issues with the Roman Catholics, on this particular point,

533
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:15,559
it actually does reinforce the idea that Christ is a

534
00:32:15,599 --> 00:32:18,960
divine only person, and so I have it listed. There

535
00:32:18,799 --> 00:32:22,599
are the specific sections the paragraphs where you can find these,

536
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,720
but you have statements from the Roman Catholics that say

537
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,400
stuff like Christ humanity has no other subject than the

538
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,680
divine person of the Son of God. We confess that

539
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,440
one in the same Christ, Lord and only begotten Son

540
00:32:36,599 --> 00:32:40,839
is to be acknowledged in two natures without confusion, change, division,

541
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,599
or separation. The distinction between the natures was never abolished

542
00:32:44,599 --> 00:32:47,599
by their union, but rather the character property each of

543
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,680
the two natures was preserved as they came together in

544
00:32:51,319 --> 00:32:57,279
one person prosopone and one hypostasis. Everything in Christ's human

545
00:32:57,359 --> 00:33:01,160
nature is to be attributed to his divine person as

546
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:06,400
its proper subject. Christ's human nature belongs as his own

547
00:33:06,839 --> 00:33:09,680
to the divine person of the Son of God who

548
00:33:09,839 --> 00:33:13,440
assumed it. The Son of God therefore communicates to his

549
00:33:13,599 --> 00:33:19,960
humanity his own personal mode of existence in the Trinity. Now,

550
00:33:21,279 --> 00:33:25,119
the reason why I'm bringing in the Roman Catholic points

551
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,079
here is not because we need the Roman Catholics to

552
00:33:29,519 --> 00:33:35,960
substantiate the Orthodox position. I'm bringing these in to show

553
00:33:36,319 --> 00:33:43,319
how the Roman Catholic Church is setting itself up in

554
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,240
a contradiction when it says that it professes the same

555
00:33:47,359 --> 00:33:52,599
Christology as other churches, for example, the Orientals or the

556
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,400
Church of the East. And I'll get to the point

557
00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:00,799
where there was the joint agreement signed between Theman Catholics

558
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:04,599
and the Assyrian Church that says, well, basically, we're professing

559
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,239
the same faith. No, we are not professing the same faith.

560
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,360
The Assyrian Church of the East, that is a Nestorian,

561
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:18,559
will not permit this kind of language. It is absolutely

562
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:24,360
against the Christology to use this kind of expressions and

563
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:29,159
apply that to Christ. It just does not work.

564
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 1: So note again the double hypocrisy there as Chai's pointing out.

565
00:34:32,559 --> 00:34:36,360
On the one hand, the classical Roman Catholic position and

566
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,719
the Orthodox position on this specific point are in perfect unison.

567
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,000
We do not disagree at this point. But yet Rome,

568
00:34:44,079 --> 00:34:46,639
as Chai is pointing out, because they want to, for

569
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:51,039
geopolitical and ecumenist reasons, placate and pretend that they're all

570
00:34:51,039 --> 00:34:54,679
part of the same church. They now honor and revere Marnastorius,

571
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,320
and so this stuff is played down. When even the

572
00:34:58,559 --> 00:35:01,480
Orientals will not agree to these positions, as Kai is

573
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,880
pointing out again showing that only the Orthodox position has

574
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:11,159
been consistent, and Rome admitting classically the Orthodox position, confirms

575
00:35:11,159 --> 00:35:11,559
that point.

576
00:35:12,639 --> 00:35:18,159
Speaker 2: I also want to add the parts for Kai oltdye

577
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,440
in green. A lot of them are, you know, sometimes

578
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,760
direct quotations, sometimes very clear paraphrases of seeing Curla, f

579
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,719
alexandri One in particular the last one right Christ human

580
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:30,719
nature belongs as his own to the divine person of

581
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:32,719
the Son of God who assumed it. And then he

582
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,440
says this son of God therefore communicates to his humanity

583
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,519
his own personal mode of existence in the Trinity. So

584
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,320
seeing Carola, I think something says something very similar, but

585
00:35:41,559 --> 00:35:43,039
says it in a different way, and I think it's

586
00:35:43,119 --> 00:35:45,599
very relevant to the Orthodox view. He says this in

587
00:35:45,639 --> 00:35:50,559
his Scholia on the Incarnation, he says, and he communicates

588
00:35:50,599 --> 00:35:53,639
as to his own flesh the operation that is the

589
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,880
energy of his own divine powers. This was how he

590
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:58,679
was able to give life to the dead and to

591
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,000
heal the sick. This statement from Saint Curle that you know,

592
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,000
the Roman Catholic Catholicism is making a reference, is actually

593
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,119
making I will say a stronger point that the divine

594
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:16,760
energies of God, right yeah, and consistent, Yeah yeah, fully

595
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:21,440
interpreenetrate his humanity in a very strong way. Right, And

596
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,599
this is a model to our salvation essentially.

597
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,519
Speaker 1: And keep in mind Rome does not teach. Rome does

598
00:36:28,559 --> 00:36:31,519
not teach that there are uncreated energies after Trent.

599
00:36:33,559 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 4: Yes, so that kind of brought to my mind when

600
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:37,880
I was saying.

601
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,599
Speaker 2: But as I said, a lot of these parts in

602
00:36:40,599 --> 00:36:44,760
Green there are again either direct quotations or paraphrase of

603
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,119
what Saint Kurla Alexander is saying. But the last one

604
00:36:47,679 --> 00:36:50,880
needs I think a bit of a clarification to understand

605
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:52,320
it even even better.

606
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:59,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, So now we're going to ask the question what

607
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:04,440
makes it so object because if we're going to insist

608
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:09,280
that Nestorianism is two subjects, so we need to kind

609
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,920
of look at, well, what do we mean when we

610
00:37:12,039 --> 00:37:17,440
say a subject? And so we understand hypostasis in the

611
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,960
sense of a concrete, ontological existent and not in the

612
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,280
sense of an abstract category. So, for example, hypostasis in

613
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,800
the sense of nicee a one where it was just

614
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:33,280
a nature like human nature. And so though hypostasis was

615
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,119
used by Hellenic philosophers as well as in scripture and

616
00:37:36,199 --> 00:37:40,840
some of the Church fathers in that antiquated sense and

617
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:45,960
the most immediate references in Hebrews one three. The Christological

618
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:52,440
application of hypostasis, indicating a concrete ontological existent, is an

619
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,079
extension of Origins usage with regards to the Holy Trinity. Now,

620
00:37:56,079 --> 00:37:59,079
I want to be careful here because that does not

621
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,960
mean what we that we are using hypostasis in the

622
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:07,719
way Origin himself understood it in a complete sense. It's

623
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,880
just more of this idea to avoid modalism, so that

624
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:18,280
you have a real distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

625
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,760
And so for Origin, hypostasis is what gives the Son

626
00:38:23,159 --> 00:38:26,760
as well as the Holy Spirit a truly real ontological

627
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,639
existence distinct from the Father and not just a distinction

628
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:36,760
in thought only, so it staves off modalism, whereas for modalist,

629
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:43,039
a persona does not have ontological status or person, but

630
00:38:43,639 --> 00:38:48,239
making person identical to hypostasis, thereby making both points to

631
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:54,840
the same underlying ontology is Cappadocian. And this is very important,

632
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:00,840
and essentially what it's saying is is that the individuated

633
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:06,320
is the individual. You can't separate that. And when you

634
00:39:06,599 --> 00:39:11,360
talk to the Church of the East and historians they

635
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:17,760
play this three tier onto logical game where they'll say

636
00:39:18,519 --> 00:39:23,000
the hypostasis that they will in a way equate it

637
00:39:23,039 --> 00:39:25,440
with knuma, but at the same time say, well, it's

638
00:39:25,519 --> 00:39:30,440
not really an equivalence. They will say the pnuma is

639
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:36,679
what individuates a kiana or a nature, but then to

640
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:41,360
get the individual that's the function of the parasupa or

641
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:46,280
the prosopon. So it would be like if you would

642
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:52,000
think the knuma is like a mannequin, you have a

643
00:39:52,119 --> 00:39:56,280
row of mannequins that you can enumerate, but you can't

644
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,400
really distinguish them, and so for them that that's what

645
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,840
individuated means. It's something that is concretized that acts as

646
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:10,480
a substrate to concretize an abstract, But there still needs

647
00:40:10,519 --> 00:40:15,559
to be some kind of individualizing of each of these

648
00:40:15,599 --> 00:40:19,599
things that are individuated. So you think of like multiple mannequins,

649
00:40:19,639 --> 00:40:24,159
you dress them up in different garb, and now you

650
00:40:24,159 --> 00:40:26,519
can enumerate them and distinguish them.

651
00:40:26,599 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 1: And that's specifically referring to the Church of the East

652
00:40:29,519 --> 00:40:31,719
this terminology because of the only audience is going to

653
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:33,840
get their audience is going to get confused and lost,

654
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:39,400
and where simultaneous are responding to both the Coptic position,

655
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,840
the orient position, and the Assyrian position, et cetera.

656
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,199
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, and so this is very important because this

657
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:52,199
is where we see the metaphysical paradigms completely diverge, and

658
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:56,800
this is where it makes it impossible for example, Rome

659
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:01,199
to come into a Christological agree with the Church of

660
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:06,320
the East. So either the two sides are absolutely stupid

661
00:41:06,519 --> 00:41:10,760
in their understanding of their metaphysics, or it's just a

662
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,360
geopolitical game that they're playing. They're looking for some kind

663
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:22,079
of geopolitical benefit for coming into union. But the Cappadocian

664
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:26,639
sense is very clear that you can't individuate without at

665
00:41:26,639 --> 00:41:33,199
the same time individualizing, So the individual is what is individuated.

666
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:39,239
So a subject then is a hypostasis or person in

667
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,800
the sense of a concrete ontological existent in other words,

668
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,960
So for the Cappadocians, if you have a hypostasis, then

669
00:41:47,039 --> 00:41:51,159
you have a subject. And it is from this basic

670
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:57,199
premise that two hypostasis means you have two subjects or

671
00:41:57,519 --> 00:42:04,360
two persons in capitaltionmenclature. So anyone who believes that Christ

672
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,440
to be two hypostasis in the Cappadocian sense makes of

673
00:42:08,599 --> 00:42:15,000
Christ two subjects or two persons, and maintaining two subjects

674
00:42:15,039 --> 00:42:21,639
in Christ is fundamentally and unavoidably Nestorian. And it doesn't

675
00:42:21,639 --> 00:42:25,559
matter how much one professes Christ to be quote unquote

676
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:30,639
one person, as the Nestorians do. And one thing that

677
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,639
I think needs to be made clear is that Nestorianism

678
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:40,519
is properly speaking to profess two subjects in Christ. And

679
00:42:40,599 --> 00:42:43,480
so the reason the Orthodox will say that Nostorianism is

680
00:42:43,519 --> 00:42:47,679
too quote unquote person is because for us person equals

681
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,000
the subject. And that's following the Cappadocians.

682
00:42:52,159 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 1: And it's restated again as you just saw earlier in

683
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,800
the slides at the Fifth Council, which is intended to

684
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,320
resolve the linguistic dis view. It's on this topic after

685
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:02,159
many centuries.

686
00:43:03,119 --> 00:43:06,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, and just to wrap up this slide, so if

687
00:43:06,679 --> 00:43:11,440
a different metaphysical system is used, and in this I'm

688
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:13,360
going to use an example of the Church of the East,

689
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,760
where their notion of person is not the same as

690
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:22,000
our notion of person, but two subjects can still be

691
00:43:22,079 --> 00:43:25,760
identified in Christ, meaning that you still have two concrete

692
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:30,840
ontological existence along the lines of hypostasis, which they will

693
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:35,679
call Pnuma as an individuate in nature, then that still

694
00:43:36,039 --> 00:43:41,679
constitutes Nestorianism, and in a similar vein the Oriental churches

695
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,920
are also to be considered a historian since the incarnation

696
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:50,519
adds another concrete ontological existent, the human hypostasis, to Christ.

697
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,400
Though the combining of the hypostasis in their scheme results

698
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:59,079
in a form of monophysitism, it doesn't matter that they

699
00:43:59,079 --> 00:44:03,119
will say that the human hypostatic component in Christ is

700
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:09,280
never separate from the divine. Nevertheless, the fact that it's

701
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:15,320
added as a concrete means that you still have some

702
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:19,920
kind of two subjects that in some form reduces to

703
00:44:20,119 --> 00:44:25,199
a one subject, So it would be a etertium quid subsc.

704
00:44:25,599 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 1: But the point is that both of them are using

705
00:44:28,039 --> 00:44:30,639
the same faulty definition of what a person or or

706
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:35,719
or what person hypostasis are, right, They coming to different conclusions.

707
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:40,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're just making different metaphysical moves, but making.

708
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:45,079
Speaker 1: But it's based on the same mistaken idea of hypostasis

709
00:44:45,199 --> 00:44:50,440
as a particular particular nature, right.

710
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:52,320
Speaker 3: Correct, Correct?

711
00:44:53,119 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 4: Yeah.

712
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 2: I'd also like to add, if you want to really

713
00:44:56,039 --> 00:44:58,320
simplify it, you can just think of this in terms

714
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:03,320
of Aristotelian s since accident dichotomy, and this is going.

715
00:45:03,199 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 4: To be this time.

716
00:45:04,639 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 2: I'm planning on talking about this in future streams much

717
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:12,039
more extensively. But if you talk about, you know, substance

718
00:45:12,119 --> 00:45:16,280
versus accident as defined as substance has self subsistent, accident

719
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,760
is non self subsistent, the main difference is, well, I

720
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,679
guess not the main difference. The common part that monosis

721
00:45:24,679 --> 00:45:29,679
and the stories both have is this system and that

722
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,880
person in terms of rational beings, refers to a self

723
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,639
subsistent substance. And this is where we get the question

724
00:45:36,679 --> 00:45:38,559
of Okay, how do we understand crisis one person? The

725
00:45:38,559 --> 00:45:41,159
monopaid answer is, well, it has to be one substance.

726
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,400
Then the historian answer is, well, we have to protect

727
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:47,880
the quality of the natures. So two substances, and within

728
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,119
the certain view you get two self subsistent things. With

729
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,800
the monoposide, you get one self subsistent you know. Think

730
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:59,559
but both of these views lead to incorrect paths. And

731
00:45:59,599 --> 00:46:01,800
the reason or that that being the case is because

732
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,239
they actually share the same pre suppositions that the Orthodox

733
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:06,159
do not hold to.

734
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 4: So I believe I think, yeah.

735
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:12,320
Speaker 2: Saint Curly even says in the Scolia that the universal

736
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:16,239
particular distinction makes it hard to explain certain things about

737
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,400
you know, Christology, and he kind of points out that

738
00:46:18,559 --> 00:46:21,760
it's not actually fully you know, helpful to kind.

739
00:46:21,639 --> 00:46:24,679
Speaker 4: Of just completely use you.

740
00:46:24,639 --> 00:46:28,760
Speaker 2: Know, aristotelic understanding of substance and accidents and particular and universal.

741
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,400
They need to be understood in an ecclesiastical manner. And

742
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,960
this is exactly what we see in the in the

743
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,880
Fifth Council, of the sixth Council. Uh, this getting more

744
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,119
you know, ecclesiastically, you know, define it a stronger.

745
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:43,599
Speaker 4: Aid even in the FLIC Medical Council.

746
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 2: So this is again a very crucial point to bear

747
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,360
in mind. Otherwise you're going to have very serious problems

748
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,239
in terms of the Trinity and Christology, right, You're going

749
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:54,880
to go wrong in both of these pasts.

750
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 4: So it's very important to understand that.

751
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:02,039
Speaker 2: A person is not simply just a particular nature or

752
00:47:02,119 --> 00:47:05,800
just a particularization. But it is certainly correct to say

753
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:09,039
that it is very the particularization occurs. And that's a

754
00:47:09,159 --> 00:47:12,239
very fine distinction, but a very important distinction that we see,

755
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,920
especially in Leontius of Jerusalem and the you know, the

756
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:19,639
time of the Fifth Council This becomes pretty much over time,

757
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,760
the main understood way of thinking about hypostasis, and another

758
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:25,679
key point I want to make, you know, I want to.

759
00:47:25,599 --> 00:47:27,320
Speaker 4: Make again further simplify things.

760
00:47:29,039 --> 00:47:33,039
Speaker 2: The modelists use the term prosopon right, which is translated

761
00:47:33,079 --> 00:47:37,400
as person as to the persons of the trinity. Right,

762
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:40,400
there are three prosopa. But the problem with the term

763
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,000
process upon in the Greek is it also means mask.

764
00:47:43,079 --> 00:47:47,239
It means appearance, right, So it doesn't have this substantiative

765
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:52,000
meaning of you know, personhood as a real concrete sense.

766
00:47:52,039 --> 00:47:56,079
But hypostasis does because hyperstatis literally and it used to

767
00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:01,159
pretty much mean basically this prior to the fourth century

768
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:03,280
as just essence.

769
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 4: Right.

770
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 2: In Greek it literally meets substance hepaw under and stasis standing,

771
00:48:11,039 --> 00:48:16,039
so it's basically substance and it's again that's an example

772
00:48:16,079 --> 00:48:21,239
of a term becoming transformed in order to ecclesiastically defined

773
00:48:21,559 --> 00:48:23,920
in a stronger manner the Orthodox faith.

774
00:48:24,039 --> 00:48:26,760
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, are you done? Can I say something? You

775
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:27,280
want to keep going?

776
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 4: Yeah? Sure, yeah, sure, you can go ahead.

777
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: This is also where the Cappadocians and others bring in

778
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:36,840
uh erisk Aerosol's notion of primary and secondary substance, which

779
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,719
correspond to person and nature as well. This is why

780
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:43,719
it's very crucial for trinitary theology and Christology to make

781
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,519
the nature person distinction. And that's really what's underlying the

782
00:48:47,559 --> 00:48:50,800
page and the page that Kai has up. This is

783
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,000
why by the time of Saint John Amascus, he will

784
00:48:53,039 --> 00:48:57,039
say twice, you know, on the Orthodox faith. I'm pretty

785
00:48:57,039 --> 00:49:00,440
sure twice he says that the failure to distinguish nature

786
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:03,360
and person is in fact the root of all heresies,

787
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:08,800
and so this confusion is central here to avoid we

788
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:12,760
absolutely have to avoid the confusion collapsing nature into person

789
00:49:13,079 --> 00:49:16,280
or making person nature. I just put up a thing

790
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:18,239
about the Tomas that do this very thing when they

791
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:20,639
talk about a saiety as the divine essence. I'm not

792
00:49:20,639 --> 00:49:23,400
going to get into all that tonight, but Kai, I

793
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:27,199
did have a question for you, because it's David actually

794
00:49:27,199 --> 00:49:31,000
touched on it indirectly, which is this confusing usage of

795
00:49:31,119 --> 00:49:35,119
pros upon by the Nestorians. Nestorians will talk about a

796
00:49:35,119 --> 00:49:37,519
prosopic union. I think you did touch on a last time,

797
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,360
but I think somebody in the chat made a comment

798
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,920
to this effect. Is that because in other words, it's

799
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:45,679
not that there's a problem with the word pros upon,

800
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:49,400
but the Nestorian understanding of pros upon is not the

801
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,760
same thing as what we mean by pros upon. And

802
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:55,840
that's why that terminology might be utilized by the Coptics,

803
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:57,960
for example, because they would say, oh, you're using the

804
00:49:58,039 --> 00:50:00,360
Nestorian idea because you're using the word pros on, so

805
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:04,079
you just mean it's a mask, no no by for us.

806
00:50:04,159 --> 00:50:08,079
As the Fifth Council says, prosopon refers to the hypostasis

807
00:50:08,079 --> 00:50:08,920
of the word.

808
00:50:09,679 --> 00:50:11,639
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I don't want to get into too much

809
00:50:11,679 --> 00:50:15,559
detail now, just because I actually will go into greater details.

810
00:50:17,679 --> 00:50:22,400
But basically, we have our two tierontology of nature, person,

811
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,639
and here we're using person to refer to the same

812
00:50:25,679 --> 00:50:30,440
ontology as the hypostasis, so we're using it equivalently synonymously.

813
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,480
But the historians they have a three tier ontology basically

814
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:38,960
nature hypostasis, person, and for them, in the Church of

815
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:43,519
the East, person does not mean the same thing as hypostasis.

816
00:50:44,039 --> 00:50:47,639
I will get into greater until explain exactly what this

817
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:49,039
whole system entails.

818
00:50:50,159 --> 00:50:53,679
Speaker 2: I also want to add, like very shortly, when it

819
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:57,719
comes to the christology of the vest and I think

820
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:01,000
it's very clear that prior to the Council Ofdon, the

821
00:51:01,079 --> 00:51:06,400
Cristogiost is very you know, to nature focus, it's very Diophysite. Again,

822
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:08,880
I think this is kind of it's very difficult to

823
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,039
argue against this. But when they use the term person,

824
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:17,119
it is not as weak as the Greek term prosopon right,

825
00:51:17,119 --> 00:51:21,320
because the Latin understanding of person already incorporates some kind

826
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:25,679
of substantiality to it by nature of the way it's

827
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:27,719
used in the Latin language.

828
00:51:28,119 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 4: So that's also something to bear in mind. So then,

829
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:32,320
for example, you know.

830
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:35,079
Speaker 2: The tone of Leo talks about Christ being one person,

831
00:51:35,519 --> 00:51:38,440
it is not as weak as a Greek saying Christ

832
00:51:38,559 --> 00:51:40,719
is one prosopon right, And the story can say that,

833
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:43,239
but lost I can say that, Orthodox can say that.

834
00:51:43,679 --> 00:51:47,480
But in the Latin context it's actually quite different. Right,

835
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:52,840
Latins don't really as far as I know, and I'm

836
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:55,639
ninety five percent sure in this, but Latins don't really

837
00:51:55,639 --> 00:52:00,679
have this concept of person as just some external external appearance.

838
00:52:01,199 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 4: Right.

839
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:05,079
Speaker 2: There is indeed the understanding of you know, persona right

840
00:52:05,159 --> 00:52:09,639
as kind of like making up a personality or wearing something.

841
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:10,360
Speaker 4: As a mask.

842
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,559
Speaker 2: But again within the Latin context, the way it's used,

843
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:17,719
that's much weaker, right, And there has been some discussions

844
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:21,159
from you know, the Western Church prescis in Western Church

845
00:52:21,199 --> 00:52:23,599
on this issue as well at its time.

846
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:24,599
Speaker 4: So that's I.

847
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 2: Think something important to point out that the Western Church

848
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,599
in the Eastern Church in terms of cristogia, although are

849
00:52:31,679 --> 00:52:34,920
unified in this matter, the very certain terms developed, there's

850
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,920
different expressions, right, It's very important to bear this in mind.

851
00:52:38,119 --> 00:52:41,360
The last thing that we should do is anachronistically apply

852
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,840
modern understandings of certain terms for how it was used

853
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,159
in the fifth century. We have to try to understand

854
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:51,360
how a person in the fifth century understood these terms

855
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,000
in order to understand exactly what they're saying. If you

856
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:56,159
don't do that, we're just going to be we're not

857
00:52:56,159 --> 00:52:58,760
going to be able to go beyond just making you know,

858
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:03,760
ten second clips and just trying to own the opponent

859
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:04,400
and score.

860
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 4: Some Internet points.

861
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:08,119
Speaker 2: That discussion is not going to be going beyond that

862
00:53:08,159 --> 00:53:11,360
if we don't try to understand what these people actually

863
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:13,320
said for their time. This is why it's important to

864
00:53:14,519 --> 00:53:19,519
actually listen and understand what you're reading.

865
00:53:19,559 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 3: Right, consubstantial metaphysics. So this is now going into demonstrating

866
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:36,639
how the Orientals are trying to play two games at

867
00:53:36,679 --> 00:53:42,320
the same time. So to speak of Christ being doubly

868
00:53:42,519 --> 00:53:49,679
consubstantial with the Father meaning divine and Us meaning human,

869
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:57,360
is to admit Christ is in to nature's and this

870
00:53:57,519 --> 00:54:03,880
is very important. Christ is in two natures if he's

871
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:10,679
to be doubly consubstantial. But the Orientals they're going to

872
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:17,960
say that Christ is in one nature, and that denies

873
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:26,679
the double consubstantiality. So, given that double consubstantiality requires speaking

874
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:32,320
of two distinct natures, we can speak of Christ in

875
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:36,679
two distinct natures because he is consubstantial with others in

876
00:54:37,039 --> 00:54:43,960
those natures. In those natures. If you cannot speak of

877
00:54:44,079 --> 00:54:48,880
Christ in two distinct natures, then you cannot speak of

878
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:56,599
Christ consubstantial with others in those natures. This is important

879
00:54:56,719 --> 00:55:01,480
because it's precisely because consubstanti is at the level of

880
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:08,559
nature and not hypostasis, that Christ does not require a

881
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:13,519
human hypostasis in order to become substantial with us according

882
00:55:13,519 --> 00:55:19,360
to human nature. This is why we deny that metaphysical

883
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:23,559
move that says we must first have some kind of

884
00:55:23,639 --> 00:55:29,840
a human substrate that can individuate or particularize a human nature,

885
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:34,960
and that substrate has to be particular to that human nature.

886
00:55:35,199 --> 00:55:37,920
We deny that metaphysical move and this is why we

887
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:43,679
can say that Christ is a divine only hypostasis. Now,

888
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:47,760
to be consubstantial is to be of the same essence

889
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:53,480
or homousios, as stipulated by the Nicene Creed, which, as

890
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:58,519
Saint Anthonasius reminds us, is to be of the same nature.

891
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:02,519
And he's using the word feces here, for we believe

892
00:56:02,519 --> 00:56:05,199
that there is one Godhead and that it has one

893
00:56:05,639 --> 00:56:08,599
nature feasin, and not that there is one nature of

894
00:56:08,639 --> 00:56:11,559
the Father from which that of the Son of the

895
00:56:11,559 --> 00:56:17,079
Holy Spirit are distinct. So the First Documenical Council mandates

896
00:56:17,519 --> 00:56:21,480
that Christians profess the Father and Son to be of

897
00:56:21,519 --> 00:56:27,639
the same essence homo ussios, meaning consubstantial, which means to

898
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:31,639
exist in the same nature. But now, if we look

899
00:56:31,679 --> 00:56:36,159
at what the Orientals will say, that Christ can only

900
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:40,519
be spoken of as being in one nature. So they

901
00:56:40,519 --> 00:56:44,519
will say he's of two natures, but they will not

902
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:48,559
say that he is in two natures. The Oriental position

903
00:56:49,039 --> 00:56:55,119
is crystal clear that you can only ever speak of

904
00:56:55,239 --> 00:57:04,320
Christ in one nature incarnating. So if he's only in

905
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:13,599
one nature. The oriental metaphysics has two possibilities. Either Christ

906
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:17,840
retains only his divine nature and as a result he

907
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:22,320
is not consubstantial with us, and that means that is

908
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:28,360
a form of gnosticism. Or Christ's nature changes and as

909
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:31,920
a result he is no longer consubstantial with the Father,

910
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:37,760
and that would be a form of arianism. So that

911
00:57:38,159 --> 00:57:45,360
is a metaphysical consequence of the oriental positions. You cannot

912
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:50,320
have it both ways to say Christ is in one nature,

913
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:56,440
but say he's doubly consubstantial and saying that he has

914
00:57:56,679 --> 00:58:01,000
human properties and divine properties and that is what makes

915
00:58:01,079 --> 00:58:05,400
him consubstantial and leave it at that. That does not

916
00:58:05,559 --> 00:58:11,239
work if you guys want to contribute anything to that.

917
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:16,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the main response you get to this is,

918
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:17,960
you know, in terms of this, it's like, you know,

919
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:21,800
Christ is one whole out of two parts, right, and

920
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:24,440
we are referring to the two parts that the whole

921
00:58:24,599 --> 00:58:27,280
is made of. But again, if you're going to use

922
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:31,159
the language of consubstantiality and say that this is real

923
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,480
and this is applicable to Christ after the hypostatic union,

924
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:38,679
I really fail to see how you can affirm double consubstantiality,

925
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:43,360
but not two natures, right, especially when nature and substance

926
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,480
in disregard that the av use, it is pretty much

927
00:58:46,599 --> 00:58:47,000
the same.

928
00:58:47,599 --> 00:58:49,920
Speaker 4: Right. So, and we.

929
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:54,719
Speaker 2: Also know that Serahsophantiac actually explicitly rejects saying that Christ

930
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:58,519
is into substances. And that's because he has a specific

931
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:00,559
understanding of universals.

932
00:59:00,639 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 4: Right.

933
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:05,559
Speaker 2: For him, universals are just collection of all particulars, all hypostasies, basically,

934
00:59:06,239 --> 00:59:09,280
And so to say that there are two substances in

935
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:12,039
Christ for him will be to say that Christ has

936
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:14,920
all hypostasis of humanity and divinity in him.

937
00:59:15,079 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 4: Right, That's kind of how he understands. But of course.

938
00:59:19,079 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 2: You having a wrong understanding of the relationship between universe

939
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:27,119
and particular is not a good enough excuse to deny

940
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:30,519
a formula that actually gives a that has a very

941
00:59:30,559 --> 00:59:35,000
strong expantory power for certain basic truths, such as that

942
00:59:35,079 --> 00:59:37,159
Christ is fully God and fully mad. This is why

943
00:59:37,159 --> 00:59:40,159
it's important again from Nords, that's perspective to make this confession.

944
00:59:41,199 --> 00:59:45,719
And what is united in Christ? And what is being

945
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,360
united in different things? What is united in Christ?

946
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:48,519
Speaker 4: Right?

947
00:59:48,519 --> 00:59:50,719
Speaker 2: The two natures being united to each other, they're united

948
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:55,079
in his person in his hypostasis. You can think of

949
00:59:55,119 --> 00:59:57,960
this in the same sense as the body and the soul, right,

950
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,159
for example, they're united in the person, the body and

951
01:00:01,199 --> 01:00:04,960
the soul. That is uh So that's that's that's all

952
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:06,000
I have to add for for now.

953
01:00:06,119 --> 01:00:09,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd also just like to add the conceptential metaphysics.

954
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:14,000
Conceptentiality plays a very important role when we start to

955
01:00:14,079 --> 01:00:18,079
understand how Christ is mediator. What does it mean for

956
01:00:18,199 --> 01:00:22,719
Christ to be mediator? And this is very important for

957
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:27,440
understanding why consubstantiality double consupstentiality is real.

958
01:00:27,599 --> 01:00:30,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why i'd just put that quote in, you know,

959
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:34,519
from Timothy one media between God and man, right, the God,

960
01:00:34,639 --> 01:00:35,719
man Christ Jesus.

961
01:00:36,599 --> 01:00:42,599
Speaker 3: Yeah. So when we look at Saint Cyril's letter to

962
01:00:42,639 --> 01:00:48,079
emper Theodosius, this is a highly relevant letter. I think

963
01:00:48,119 --> 01:00:55,159
it's one of the more neglected writings from Saint Cyril

964
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:57,800
in the discussion. And I think it's really more neglected

965
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:02,880
just because a translation of it has only appeared fairly recently.

966
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:07,840
But I think it's it's it's highly highly relevant. It's

967
01:01:08,239 --> 01:01:14,960
anticipating the Third Ecumenical Council to combat Nestorianism. But what's

968
01:01:15,159 --> 01:01:19,079
really important about this letter is Saint Cyril is distancing

969
01:01:19,159 --> 01:01:24,639
himself from various prior heresies, and in so doing he's

970
01:01:25,039 --> 01:01:29,920
establishing single subject metaphysics. So when we talked about the

971
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:34,880
metaphysics earlier, what makes a subject, it's very important. This

972
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:39,679
letter goes to great length to demonstrate in Saint Cyril's

973
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:44,440
thought he has a single subject Christ in mind. Now,

974
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:47,599
some of the things that he distances himself from is

975
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:53,599
dough Cticism or doceticism, theomorphism arianism or Sellianism or pollinarianism,

976
01:01:54,199 --> 01:01:59,320
and then the diophysitism, which is a direct front two

977
01:01:59,639 --> 01:02:02,800
Nesto orientism. I'm not going to go into detail of

978
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:05,800
these heresies. I'm just giving you an overview of what

979
01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:08,920
to expect if you're going to read that letter.

980
01:02:10,079 --> 01:02:11,360
Speaker 4: I highly well.

981
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:15,639
Speaker 1: Note that diophysicism there does not mean nature's It means subjects.

982
01:02:15,639 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 4: For him to subjects.

983
01:02:17,519 --> 01:02:20,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and also because because later on, of course, we

984
01:02:20,639 --> 01:02:24,960
explicate the diophysite position, in other words, the two nature's position,

985
01:02:25,119 --> 01:02:29,079
not the two subject position. Now. Uh, this this also

986
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:31,960
is of course what you consistently see presented in the

987
01:02:32,039 --> 01:02:34,960
John mcguck and book that we've recommended for many many years.

988
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:38,519
Say Cyril of Alexander the Christological controversy. Really, the whole

989
01:02:38,559 --> 01:02:41,239
thesis of the book is mainly just, I should say,

990
01:02:41,239 --> 01:02:44,280
one of many theses is basically just presenting the argument

991
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:48,639
that Cyril is a single subject Christological proponent. That single

992
01:02:48,679 --> 01:02:52,559
subject is identical to the subject prior to the incarnation,

993
01:02:52,679 --> 01:02:55,280
namely the second person of the Godhead. And so that

994
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:58,760
means that in the incarnate state, the only subject for

995
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:03,760
all the incarnate action is the divine person of the word. Yeah.

996
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:05,960
Speaker 3: And I'd also like to add one of the reasons

997
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:08,880
why I really like Saint Cyril's letter in this regard

998
01:03:09,719 --> 01:03:14,920
is the way he's phrasing things, the way he's explaining things.

999
01:03:15,239 --> 01:03:20,559
It is crushing all of the stupidity coming from the

1000
01:03:20,599 --> 01:03:25,800
Oriental side with their quote mining. It will demonstrate how

1001
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:31,280
Saint Cyril's understanding of Christ is completely in line with

1002
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:34,719
the Orthodox position. And when you really take the effort

1003
01:03:34,719 --> 01:03:38,360
to understand what he's saying in his letters, you start

1004
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:41,039
to see. This is where the cracks start falling for

1005
01:03:41,239 --> 01:03:45,239
the Orientals that they really do not understand Saint Cyril.

1006
01:03:45,639 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 4: They really do not.

1007
01:03:46,519 --> 01:03:50,960
Speaker 3: Understand his terms, They do not understand what his thought is.

1008
01:03:51,599 --> 01:03:53,920
Speaker 1: The two letters to six census are also really good

1009
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:56,239
for showing that after the resurrection.

1010
01:03:57,039 --> 01:04:01,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and his formula for union letters nine, it's always

1011
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:04,800
gets talked about and there's always a response against it,

1012
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:07,199
which I don't think it's very convincing. But the main

1013
01:04:07,239 --> 01:04:09,480
point that I want to get across with letter thirty nine, right,

1014
01:04:09,559 --> 01:04:13,320
the formula of reunion he had with Jona Fantioch is.

1015
01:04:14,719 --> 01:04:16,239
Speaker 4: As as as you all see.

1016
01:04:16,519 --> 01:04:19,039
Speaker 2: Saint Cirrole's main point is that all of the sayings

1017
01:04:19,079 --> 01:04:21,800
of the Devincent humanity are attributed ultimately to the one

1018
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:24,440
person word of God. That's the main point that he's

1019
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:27,920
trying to protect. And it's very interesting that he says

1020
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:31,280
that this is protected if you used to nature's language.

1021
01:04:31,639 --> 01:04:34,119
In letter thirty nine, right, he says this very clearly,

1022
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:38,199
you know, right, he says, some theologians, you know, they

1023
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:40,480
refer all the sayings to you know, some you know,

1024
01:04:40,559 --> 01:04:42,559
we refer to all the sayings of Christ to the

1025
01:04:42,639 --> 01:04:45,480
one person, and there are some theologians that refer to

1026
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:49,039
the sayings of Christ, you know, dividing the sayings. No,

1027
01:04:49,159 --> 01:04:52,719
it's not dividing the natures, but dividing the sayings to

1028
01:04:53,039 --> 01:04:53,960
the two natures.

1029
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:59,119
Speaker 4: So and he has. I think he's learned the Eulogius,

1030
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:00,760
if I'm remember correctly.

1031
01:05:01,199 --> 01:05:04,480
Speaker 2: He defends this, right, he defends saying this, and he says, look,

1032
01:05:04,559 --> 01:05:06,840
you know they're they're actually trying to say the same

1033
01:05:06,920 --> 01:05:10,519
thing as we do. The highest criticism he makes like

1034
01:05:10,719 --> 01:05:13,880
you know, they're sayings are a bit obscure, more difficult

1035
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:16,880
to understand. But never does he say, oh, yeah, you

1036
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:19,559
know these people are heretics or anything like that, which

1037
01:05:19,679 --> 01:05:22,559
is what you see you know, monopsized later on, do

1038
01:05:22,719 --> 01:05:25,280
is I accuse this language of being a heretical language

1039
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:28,360
and seeing curl of Alexandria at his own time accepted it.

1040
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:30,320
And the main point that I'm trying to make is

1041
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:33,320
that for Saint Carol, it is consistent to be able

1042
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:36,960
to speak of one Christ, one divine person of the logos,

1043
01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:39,960
while being able to speak of you know, divine and

1044
01:05:40,079 --> 01:05:44,159
human things in Christ. And this is you know what

1045
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:49,079
you see trout Saint Curle's writings. You know, he consistently

1046
01:05:49,159 --> 01:05:51,920
applies this these principles, right, this is not just the

1047
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:55,760
concession that he made like this is actually what monopsized,

1048
01:05:55,880 --> 01:05:59,039
like service police, like he pretended to agree with what

1049
01:05:59,159 --> 01:06:01,480
they said, but he actually didn't agree with anything they said.

1050
01:06:01,519 --> 01:06:03,519
He was just trying to keep peace in the church.

1051
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:07,400
And this is kind of problematic to say, but we'll

1052
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:09,960
look at it in the future presentations. But what I'm

1053
01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:11,920
trying to get at here is what you're going to

1054
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:14,599
see in this letter is again it's important to understand

1055
01:06:14,639 --> 01:06:17,639
Saint Curle and his own terms, the way he speaks,

1056
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:21,079
and to understand what he's actually trying to say. And

1057
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:24,039
this is why for us, seeing Curle is a teacher

1058
01:06:24,199 --> 01:06:26,920
of the two natures of Christ. It's not just that, oh,

1059
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:29,079
he says one nature and that's that's the end of

1060
01:06:29,119 --> 01:06:31,280
the story, or he says two natures and that stated story.

1061
01:06:31,639 --> 01:06:36,880
His writings as a whole is what's preserved and what's explicated,

1062
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:41,039
what's taught in the ecumenical councils, or rather, what Saint

1063
01:06:41,079 --> 01:06:44,159
Curle is teaching is he's actually teaching the Orthodox faith.

1064
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:49,119
Speaker 4: So it's important to bear this in mind, all right.

1065
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:53,760
Speaker 3: So with that in mind, I'm going to read these

1066
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:56,119
quotes and I'm going to read them in their entirety

1067
01:06:56,400 --> 01:06:59,000
rather than just talking about them, because I want people

1068
01:06:59,119 --> 01:07:04,800
to actually hear Saint Cyril speaking the way he's portraying

1069
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:09,239
his christology, so he'll say so. Someone will probably ask

1070
01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:13,079
at this point, to whom did the Holy Virgin give birth?

1071
01:07:14,079 --> 01:07:16,559
Was it to a man or to the Word of God.

1072
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:18,840
Speaker 1: We reply that.

1073
01:07:19,119 --> 01:07:22,639
Speaker 3: Question is wholly misguided. It is in default of what

1074
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:25,679
is right and true. As far as I'm concerned, you

1075
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:29,679
ought not to allow any division after the union. Nor

1076
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:33,880
may you reshape a manual into two persons by splitting

1077
01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:37,599
him up individually into a man and God the Word.

1078
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:41,519
No one should accuse us of having taken an unorthodox

1079
01:07:41,639 --> 01:07:44,639
position here, since this is just what is expressly condemned

1080
01:07:44,719 --> 01:07:48,400
by Holy scripture. There is no way there can be

1081
01:07:48,639 --> 01:07:53,960
any division, especially if it involves talking of quote unquote

1082
01:07:54,039 --> 01:07:58,719
two after the union, or thinking of each separately. It

1083
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:02,559
is appropriate for one's mind to sense a distinction between

1084
01:08:02,559 --> 01:08:06,519
the natures, after all, human and divine natures are not identical.

1085
01:08:07,199 --> 01:08:10,960
But at the same time as this acknowledgment, the mind

1086
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:16,159
must also accept the concurrence of the two into a unity.

1087
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:20,319
So it was as God that he issued from God

1088
01:08:20,399 --> 01:08:23,319
to Father, and as man that he issued from the

1089
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:27,119
Virgin the Word who shone out from God the Father

1090
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:30,479
in a manner that can be neither described nor imagined,

1091
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:33,000
is said to have also been born of a woman,

1092
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:38,079
descending into humanity and entering into what was not his own,

1093
01:08:39,079 --> 01:08:42,199
not with the aim of remaining thus emptied, but rather

1094
01:08:42,319 --> 01:08:44,520
so that he might be believed to be God and

1095
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:48,319
appear on earth in human form, not just as if

1096
01:08:48,359 --> 01:08:52,399
he were dwelling inside someone, but by himself, becoming a

1097
01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:57,920
man by nature, while simultaneously preserving his own glory. So

1098
01:08:58,119 --> 01:09:02,479
God's mouthpiece, Paul Come binds these two things into a unity,

1099
01:09:03,159 --> 01:09:07,279
namely the divinity and the humanity, which would otherwise be

1100
01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:10,840
so far from being consubstantial with each other, and which

1101
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:14,319
are so utterly distinct. And he makes this combination in

1102
01:09:14,399 --> 01:09:17,399
the context of salvation history. And then he demonstrates that

1103
01:09:17,439 --> 01:09:21,439
there is one single Christ out of the two elements,

1104
01:09:22,199 --> 01:09:31,119
one Son, one God. Here we see single subject christology.

1105
01:09:32,600 --> 01:09:37,960
We see that Saint Cyril allows for speaking of two

1106
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:42,640
after the union. But he's telling you how you must

1107
01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:47,640
understand the speaking of two and what exactly is one.

1108
01:09:49,119 --> 01:09:56,720
This is completely in line with Canon five of the

1109
01:09:56,800 --> 01:10:01,520
Fifth Ecumenical Council. We don't necess necessarily have to express

1110
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:07,840
our theology in this hippostatic language. But what Saint cyril

1111
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:13,800
Is writing is exactly what our Christology reflects, and it

1112
01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:23,239
is completely contrary to the Orientals continuing on from the

1113
01:10:23,319 --> 01:10:27,920
same letter. So the Son, who was co eternal with

1114
01:10:28,279 --> 01:10:31,560
the one from whom he issued, and who exists prior

1115
01:10:31,680 --> 01:10:37,399
to every age, descended into human nature, taking up humanity

1116
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:41,279
to himself, rather than slipping away from being God. And

1117
01:10:41,399 --> 01:10:44,600
hence he may legitimately be thought of as being born

1118
01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:48,880
of David's seed, and of experiencing a wholly new human birth.

1119
01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:52,920
What he took up into himself was not foreign to him,

1120
01:10:53,319 --> 01:10:56,720
but is truly his very own. It is therefore to

1121
01:10:56,760 --> 01:11:00,079
be reckoned as being one with him, just as one

1122
01:11:00,279 --> 01:11:03,199
might naturally think of how a person is constituted a

1123
01:11:03,319 --> 01:11:07,800
person whose nature is woven from unlike parts, namely soul

1124
01:11:07,880 --> 01:11:11,119
and body, but the combined person is still reckoned as

1125
01:11:11,279 --> 01:11:17,119
a single individual. One sometimes names an entire animal on

1126
01:11:17,199 --> 01:11:19,760
the basis of just its physical body, but at the

1127
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:22,680
other times the combined being is meant when the soul

1128
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:26,399
is explicitly mentioned. We ought to accept just the same

1129
01:11:26,479 --> 01:11:30,039
way of talking about Christ, for there is only one

1130
01:11:30,239 --> 01:11:35,199
son and one Lord Jesus Christ, both before his taking

1131
01:11:35,319 --> 01:11:41,199
flesh and when he appeared as a man. So this

1132
01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:45,199
here is important because now he's what Saint Cyril is

1133
01:11:45,279 --> 01:11:48,000
doing is he's elaborating what he said prior to this

1134
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:52,880
and really enforce, reiterating and enforcing the point that we're

1135
01:11:52,960 --> 01:11:58,560
talking about one ontology, and he's not saying that you

1136
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:04,760
can have a soul and a body come together and

1137
01:12:04,960 --> 01:12:08,359
then you get a result. That's not what Christ is,

1138
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:12,000
the one soul and one body coming together. You don't

1139
01:12:12,199 --> 01:12:16,079
have the person without the soul without the body. It's

1140
01:12:16,239 --> 01:12:22,000
talking about. These are fundamental to what makes the ontology

1141
01:12:22,399 --> 01:12:25,439
in the first place, and that is the unity that

1142
01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:32,159
Christ is that he possesses. It's ontologically. Christ is one,

1143
01:12:32,520 --> 01:12:38,119
He is divine who in fleshes I still have just

1144
01:12:38,159 --> 01:12:41,439
a couple more quotes here, but I'm sure there will

1145
01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:45,800
be people who ask who is Jesus Christ really? Is

1146
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:48,560
he a man born of a woman, or is he

1147
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:52,600
God's Word? It is a waste of effort even to

1148
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:57,279
bother repudiating such stuff and nonsense. I would say, though,

1149
01:12:57,439 --> 01:13:00,319
that splitting man and word into two separates the arts

1150
01:13:00,479 --> 01:13:05,279
is dangerous and will cause damage. It is excluded by souteriology,

1151
01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:09,600
while the Holy scriptures pronounced that Christ is one. I

1152
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:13,640
would myself assert that neither God's word, while separate from

1153
01:13:13,680 --> 01:13:17,359
the humanity, nor the temple born of a woman, when

1154
01:13:17,439 --> 01:13:20,760
not united to the Word, can be called quote unquote

1155
01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:25,039
Jesus Christ. For what we think of as Christ is

1156
01:13:25,399 --> 01:13:29,560
God's Word, after it has been ineffably brought together with

1157
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:34,640
the humanity in accordance with the Saving Union. He is

1158
01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:38,600
above humanity, since he is by nature God and Son.

1159
01:13:39,039 --> 01:13:41,239
But at the same time, the fact that he saw

1160
01:13:41,359 --> 01:13:44,000
fit to bring himself down to the human level does

1161
01:13:44,119 --> 01:13:48,439
him no dishonor. At one time he said, whoever has

1162
01:13:48,479 --> 01:13:51,640
seen me has seen the Father. I and the Father

1163
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:55,239
are one, but then at another that the Father is

1164
01:13:55,279 --> 01:13:58,720
greater than I. It was for humanity's sake that he

1165
01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:02,960
called himself in fear, even though he was not actually

1166
01:14:03,239 --> 01:14:06,000
lesser than the Father, since he is the same in

1167
01:14:06,199 --> 01:14:11,279
terms of substance and in every way his equal. And

1168
01:14:11,359 --> 01:14:14,800
then the last part from the letter, so then the

1169
01:14:15,039 --> 01:14:22,000
same individual is at once both the only begotten and

1170
01:14:22,199 --> 01:14:26,000
the firstborn. He is the former in so far as

1171
01:14:26,079 --> 01:14:28,840
he is God, and he is the firstborn in so

1172
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:31,239
far as he is one of us. In the way

1173
01:14:31,439 --> 01:14:36,239
the Saving Union requires it one among many brothers, a man.

1174
01:14:37,319 --> 01:14:40,239
The point of this was that we two, both in

1175
01:14:40,479 --> 01:14:45,039
Him and through Him naturally and also by grace, might

1176
01:14:45,199 --> 01:14:48,800
become God's children. So just the side comment this is

1177
01:14:48,920 --> 01:14:54,279
now getting into discussing this idea that Christ is a mediator.

1178
01:14:55,199 --> 01:15:00,319
We become so naturally because we exist in Him and

1179
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:03,760
in Him alone, whereas we become so through Him by

1180
01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:07,399
the spirit by participating in his grace. Just as the

1181
01:15:07,439 --> 01:15:11,640
condition of being the only begotten, which belongs especially to Christ,

1182
01:15:12,119 --> 01:15:15,560
became a property of his humanity when the latter was

1183
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:19,039
united to the Word, a conjunction that occurred in accordance

1184
01:15:19,119 --> 01:15:22,239
with the plan of salvation. So also, in turn to

1185
01:15:22,359 --> 01:15:26,000
the conditions of being quote unquote one among many brothers

1186
01:15:26,560 --> 01:15:29,960
and of being the firstborn, become properties of the Word

1187
01:15:30,359 --> 01:15:33,840
after being united to the flesh. Because his being God

1188
01:15:34,239 --> 01:15:38,920
and his eternal changelessness were firmly established, he remained just

1189
01:15:39,199 --> 01:15:43,439
what he was even when he became a man who

1190
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:48,199
was crowned with the highest glory and transcendence. This is

1191
01:15:48,319 --> 01:15:51,760
why the most sacred and blessed army of heavenly spirits

1192
01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:56,800
has been commanded to worship Him, just as we do

1193
01:16:00,119 --> 01:16:03,039
where in any of this do you hear speaking of

1194
01:16:03,319 --> 01:16:11,359
hypostass But you hear quite clearly in explanatory terms, single

1195
01:16:12,000 --> 01:16:18,039
subject christology that is completely reflected when we as Orthodox

1196
01:16:18,159 --> 01:16:23,000
say that Christ is divine only who has become and fleshed.

1197
01:16:23,239 --> 01:16:26,439
We don't have a mixing of hypostasis or any of

1198
01:16:27,319 --> 01:16:30,039
that sort. I don't know if any if you guys

1199
01:16:30,079 --> 01:16:34,079
want to contribute to that. It's a bit of a

1200
01:16:34,159 --> 01:16:34,760
lengthy quote.

1201
01:16:42,439 --> 01:16:43,840
Speaker 4: I think you can. I think you can.

1202
01:16:44,800 --> 01:16:48,359
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess, like I think this is kind

1203
01:16:48,359 --> 01:16:53,520
of just a very like a simple breakdown of Saint

1204
01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:57,439
Curl's Christology. And this is pretty much consistent with what

1205
01:16:57,560 --> 01:17:00,640
you see with throughout the rest of his work. Just

1206
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:03,039
the main difference being like in certain different works he

1207
01:17:03,119 --> 01:17:04,800
explains on some of the things that he talks about

1208
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:11,000
related to your manner, right, So that's the main thing

1209
01:17:11,079 --> 01:17:12,319
that I'd want to point out.

1210
01:17:12,359 --> 01:17:13,920
Speaker 4: I guess the one.

1211
01:17:13,880 --> 01:17:18,600
Speaker 2: Takeaway that one can make is that for him, nature

1212
01:17:18,680 --> 01:17:23,079
or substance is very real right in the person's and

1213
01:17:23,359 --> 01:17:28,159
between the persons, right, the union of between a human

1214
01:17:28,239 --> 01:17:30,760
person and another human person in terms of substance is

1215
01:17:30,800 --> 01:17:34,560
not just kind of in saying but it's very real,

1216
01:17:34,680 --> 01:17:38,760
it's very fundamental, and the basis of salvation is being

1217
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:45,000
able to confess that Christ right, that Christ's divinity acting

1218
01:17:45,960 --> 01:17:49,079
is acting in his humanity, and so we being part

1219
01:17:49,119 --> 01:17:52,079
of his humanity, and we becoming a real substantial part

1220
01:17:52,119 --> 01:17:56,159
of his humanity by becoming members of his Church, which

1221
01:17:56,239 --> 01:18:01,319
is his body, are able to ex experience this right.

1222
01:18:01,439 --> 01:18:05,520
This is the basis of right salvation, experiencial theology in

1223
01:18:05,520 --> 01:18:06,319
the Orthodock's faith.

1224
01:18:06,880 --> 01:18:08,199
Speaker 4: So there's that aspect as well.

1225
01:18:08,239 --> 01:18:11,680
Speaker 2: It's important in terms of Christology because again I kind

1226
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:13,560
of hinted at it, but what you see, if it's

1227
01:18:13,600 --> 01:18:18,760
service Fantich, for example, is a very kind of it's

1228
01:18:18,880 --> 01:18:21,319
kind of a monominalist account of universals if you ask me,

1229
01:18:21,439 --> 01:18:24,199
because the universe is just a collection of all particulars

1230
01:18:24,479 --> 01:18:27,000
and that's all it is. Right, It's not just that

1231
01:18:28,039 --> 01:18:30,880
all particulars are in the universes, but no, the universe

1232
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:35,600
is just that, and so we can kind of contrast

1233
01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:36,439
that with this as well.

1234
01:18:38,079 --> 01:18:40,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so then this also plays into this whole

1235
01:18:40,680 --> 01:18:44,920
understanding of a hypostatic union, where we see this differentiation

1236
01:18:45,159 --> 01:18:49,520
between ourselves as Orthodox and on the other hand, the Orientals.

1237
01:18:49,720 --> 01:18:54,039
So for us, this hypostatic union really meaning that we're

1238
01:18:54,199 --> 01:19:01,000
not separating Christ's divine in human existences, whereas the Orientals

1239
01:19:01,199 --> 01:19:05,840
when they're talking about hypostatic union and the logos and fleshing,

1240
01:19:06,199 --> 01:19:10,920
what they're talking about is not that Christ assumes another

1241
01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:14,359
mode of existence per se, but really that he assumes

1242
01:19:14,479 --> 01:19:20,439
another human hypostasis, sorry, assumes a human hypostasis into his

1243
01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:23,880
mode of existence upon in fleshing and so that you

1244
01:19:24,159 --> 01:19:27,680
see this substantial change. But for us, there is no

1245
01:19:27,760 --> 01:19:31,439
substantive change in Christ. He just comes in his incarnation

1246
01:19:31,560 --> 01:19:35,760
to exist in a separate mode or not a separate

1247
01:19:35,800 --> 01:19:39,680
modes or an additional mode in addition to being God

1248
01:19:40,279 --> 01:19:45,600
as well as a human. The prosopic union. So now

1249
01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:50,960
though we can understand the prosopic union in the Orthodox sense,

1250
01:19:53,520 --> 01:19:58,359
the prosopic union becomes relevant in the context of Nestorianism

1251
01:19:58,760 --> 01:20:06,079
because by separating the prosopic ontology from the hypostatic ontology,

1252
01:20:06,960 --> 01:20:10,760
the Nestorians, the Church of the East, they deny a

1253
01:20:10,840 --> 01:20:17,039
hypostatic union, but they profess a prosopic union. And this

1254
01:20:17,359 --> 01:20:22,079
is understood as a voluntary or an impassable unit union

1255
01:20:22,600 --> 01:20:26,720
because passibility cannot become part of the divine nature of

1256
01:20:26,880 --> 01:20:36,039
the logos. And so in Nestorius's thought, prosopon and will

1257
01:20:36,479 --> 01:20:40,840
are used synonymously. So to have the procipone of God

1258
01:20:41,439 --> 01:20:47,760
it means to will what God wills. To have the

1259
01:20:47,840 --> 01:20:52,640
prospone of God means to act as God acts revelation

1260
01:20:52,840 --> 01:20:55,840
of God to the world. Every nature must have a

1261
01:20:55,920 --> 01:20:59,319
prosopone which arises out of it as its natural expression,

1262
01:20:59,479 --> 01:21:04,520
which unquote reveals the nature or Usiah. And so the

1263
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:08,880
union in Christ is to utilize the flesh in order

1264
01:21:09,039 --> 01:21:13,680
to express the divine and this expression is realized in

1265
01:21:13,840 --> 01:21:18,920
the quote unquote one person of Christ. So this is

1266
01:21:19,039 --> 01:21:23,319
now we're unfolding the metaphysics of the Nestorian position to

1267
01:21:23,560 --> 01:21:28,359
really understand what they mean by one person or what

1268
01:21:28,520 --> 01:21:32,439
they mean person in general. And you will now see

1269
01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:37,359
that it's going to be drastically different to the Cappadocian understanding.

1270
01:21:39,479 --> 01:21:41,840
This was something that I posted as a community post

1271
01:21:42,199 --> 01:21:46,920
and made the rounds and made the Oriental zol kind

1272
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:53,520
of I don't know, have a melt down in pictorial representation.

1273
01:21:55,079 --> 01:22:01,199
If you have a human hypostatic component to Christ, then

1274
01:22:02,520 --> 01:22:05,359
while this can be thought of as a meme, it

1275
01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:11,800
really does accurately represent what is happening ontologically the Church

1276
01:22:11,880 --> 01:22:16,600
of the East. Having two subjects means that you really

1277
01:22:17,039 --> 01:22:21,960
do have two different centers that can be attributed to

1278
01:22:22,279 --> 01:22:27,119
Christ's activities. And this is very prominent when you read

1279
01:22:27,680 --> 01:22:32,520
somebody like Theodore of Mopsuestia in his commentaries, where he

1280
01:22:32,800 --> 01:22:37,760
will attribute divine activity specifically to the Logos and he

1281
01:22:37,800 --> 01:22:43,000
will attribute human activity specifically to the human component of Christ.

1282
01:22:43,760 --> 01:22:49,560
So there is a distinction between the activities of Christ

1283
01:22:50,199 --> 01:22:54,119
with the Orientals. With this tertian quid. You speak of Christ,

1284
01:22:54,399 --> 01:22:59,279
but now it becomes some kind of a combination of

1285
01:22:59,520 --> 01:23:03,920
the divine no human that acts. And that's kind of

1286
01:23:04,000 --> 01:23:06,880
like you can see in the in the picture, a

1287
01:23:07,039 --> 01:23:10,960
fair representation of what their metaphysics entails. Because if they

1288
01:23:11,079 --> 01:23:14,279
say you can only have one nay, that Christ is

1289
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:18,840
in one nature, well, if you're talking about one nature,

1290
01:23:19,159 --> 01:23:21,560
it has to it can't be the divine only, it

1291
01:23:21,640 --> 01:23:24,840
can't be the human only. It is some tertian quid.

1292
01:23:25,039 --> 01:23:29,000
You cannot get around that orthodoxy if we speak of

1293
01:23:29,119 --> 01:23:30,439
Christ the way he is.

1294
01:23:34,319 --> 01:23:34,439
Speaker 4: Here.

1295
01:23:35,399 --> 01:23:38,960
Speaker 3: So that kind of wraps up Christology, just an overview

1296
01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:43,079
of Christology and now we're going to go into soteriology,

1297
01:23:44,239 --> 01:23:51,640
and this is now very relevant because soteriology is discussing salvation.

1298
01:23:52,880 --> 01:23:57,119
It's talking about what is the whole purpose of Christ incarnating,

1299
01:23:57,520 --> 01:24:08,279
how does the incarnation be effectively selvific. And so in general,

1300
01:24:08,920 --> 01:24:15,640
we can divide the positions between the Orthodox, the Orientals,

1301
01:24:15,760 --> 01:24:21,840
and the Nestorians by hypostatic union language versus prosopic union language.

1302
01:24:23,520 --> 01:24:27,800
Though we the Orthodox can also talk about a prosopic union,

1303
01:24:27,960 --> 01:24:29,760
it's going to be in the same sense as a

1304
01:24:29,840 --> 01:24:33,800
hypostatic union. But what we have at play here is

1305
01:24:34,319 --> 01:24:39,159
when we look at the hypostatic union for the Orthodox position,

1306
01:24:40,079 --> 01:24:44,359
we are looking at Christ being a subject, and so

1307
01:24:44,680 --> 01:24:50,199
in this Christ has one hypostasis that exists in two

1308
01:24:50,439 --> 01:24:57,840
modes simultaneously, and the logos unites within himself to natures

1309
01:24:58,039 --> 01:25:04,239
because he exists in those to natures. But the metaphysical

1310
01:25:04,399 --> 01:25:09,199
system at play here is that a single hypostasis can

1311
01:25:09,479 --> 01:25:14,119
an hypostatize multiple natures. And that's the metaphysical move that

1312
01:25:14,279 --> 01:25:19,760
we as Orthodox make that differentiates us from the Orientals

1313
01:25:20,319 --> 01:25:24,720
and from the Nestorians. And then it's also important to

1314
01:25:24,840 --> 01:25:29,239
understand that in our system there are two wills in Christ,

1315
01:25:29,720 --> 01:25:33,720
and that will is a property of nature, it's not

1316
01:25:33,880 --> 01:25:37,199
a property of the hypostasis. And this is going to

1317
01:25:37,199 --> 01:25:41,439
be important in future slides when we get into discussing

1318
01:25:41,560 --> 01:25:45,560
will in a little bit more detail. For the Orientals,

1319
01:25:46,760 --> 01:25:50,319
the hypostatic union is that Christ is kind of both

1320
01:25:50,399 --> 01:25:53,640
a subject and an object kind of at the same time.

1321
01:25:54,560 --> 01:25:58,359
So essentially what you have is the hypostasis of the

1322
01:25:58,520 --> 01:26:04,199
logos assuming into itself a nonsense, self subsistent human hypostasis,

1323
01:26:04,680 --> 01:26:08,079
and that gives you that tertion quid hypostasis of Christ,

1324
01:26:08,239 --> 01:26:12,680
because you can only talk of one hypostasis after the incarnation,

1325
01:26:14,119 --> 01:26:20,520
and so this individuated human hypostasis cannot exist apart from Him.

1326
01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:26,359
And the metaphysical move that we deny that the Orientals

1327
01:26:26,600 --> 01:26:29,119
and the Church of the East make is that a

1328
01:26:29,359 --> 01:26:32,920
nature can only ever be individuated by a hypostasis of

1329
01:26:33,039 --> 01:26:36,760
its corresponding kind. So if you're going to talk about

1330
01:26:37,319 --> 01:26:41,760
Christ having a human nature or having a human mode

1331
01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:48,199
of existence, then there must be a human hypostasis. You

1332
01:26:48,279 --> 01:26:51,880
cannot avoid it. That's the metaphysical constraint that they're imposing.

1333
01:26:52,720 --> 01:26:58,199
The Orientals are just saying that this human hypostatic existence

1334
01:26:58,520 --> 01:27:03,079
cannot be a part from the logos. It is always

1335
01:27:03,439 --> 01:27:06,039
a part of the logos, and the logos is a

1336
01:27:06,079 --> 01:27:11,640
subject of it. For them, will Christ has only one will,

1337
01:27:12,720 --> 01:27:17,199
and that will is a property of the hypostasis. And

1338
01:27:17,359 --> 01:27:21,560
this is really important because in this particular case, this

1339
01:27:21,760 --> 01:27:25,520
is going to get the Orientals into a tritheistic problem,

1340
01:27:26,000 --> 01:27:28,560
because for them to try and be consistent in their

1341
01:27:28,640 --> 01:27:33,600
triadology with their Christology is going to necessitate that you

1342
01:27:33,880 --> 01:27:37,920
have basically three wills in the Godhead for Father, Son,

1343
01:27:37,960 --> 01:27:41,520
and Holy Spirit. If the will is a property of hypostasis.

1344
01:27:43,600 --> 01:27:48,800
With regards to the Nestorians who take the prospic union,

1345
01:27:49,359 --> 01:27:55,119
Christ is an object. So you have two hypostases that

1346
01:27:55,359 --> 01:28:02,239
come together to give you Christ. Christ doesn't exist before

1347
01:28:02,720 --> 01:28:10,720
the incarnation, and you have the human hypostasis being self subsistent.

1348
01:28:11,439 --> 01:28:12,399
Speaker 4: There is no.

1349
01:28:14,079 --> 01:28:18,840
Speaker 3: Non self subsistence to it in a metaphysical sense. What

1350
01:28:18,920 --> 01:28:23,000
they're saying is, even though it is inseparable from the logos,

1351
01:28:23,640 --> 01:28:29,520
it is still in its metaphysical understanding ontologically self subsistent.

1352
01:28:30,600 --> 01:28:34,840
So then what ends up happening here is the union

1353
01:28:35,159 --> 01:28:41,399
that is brought about in Christ between these hypostasis or

1354
01:28:41,479 --> 01:28:46,680
krume is the Logos is giving his divine will to Jesus.

1355
01:28:49,880 --> 01:28:57,680
So that means that there isn't any kind of ontology

1356
01:28:58,319 --> 01:29:01,399
where the union is happening to hypostatic level. In terms

1357
01:29:01,439 --> 01:29:05,640
of the individuation, it's happening merely through some kind of

1358
01:29:05,680 --> 01:29:11,640
a giftable property. And again they make the same metaphysical

1359
01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:16,680
move as the Orientals to say that a nature is

1360
01:29:16,800 --> 01:29:21,479
only ever individuated by a hypostasis of its corresponding kind.

1361
01:29:22,079 --> 01:29:26,119
So the kruma kiana, the knuma individual individuates a kiana

1362
01:29:26,560 --> 01:29:31,840
according to kind. The divine Logos enters into a voluntary

1363
01:29:31,920 --> 01:29:37,279
conjunction with the human Jesus. And their position is that

1364
01:29:37,520 --> 01:29:41,720
there is only one will. It's a confluence of the

1365
01:29:41,840 --> 01:29:46,479
divine and human wills. So the human will is in

1366
01:29:46,840 --> 01:29:50,880
effect the divine will. I will show you from the

1367
01:29:51,239 --> 01:29:55,680
Nestorian writings where they profess one will. And though you

1368
01:29:55,800 --> 01:29:59,880
will have Nestorians who will say that no, they do

1369
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:05,399
you agree that Christ has two wills, but that in

1370
01:30:05,600 --> 01:30:10,800
effect what is expressed is one will. This is going

1371
01:30:10,880 --> 01:30:14,720
to become very problematic for them because then that is

1372
01:30:14,800 --> 01:30:17,640
an admission to full blown Nestorianism. And I'm going to

1373
01:30:17,680 --> 01:30:22,560
show you why that is the case. But now let's

1374
01:30:22,640 --> 01:30:27,279
look at what are some things that Nestorius himself says,

1375
01:30:27,760 --> 01:30:31,079
and Thestorius is venerated in the Church of the East.

1376
01:30:32,680 --> 01:30:35,680
The suddeness spoken of in the Divine Scriptures in a

1377
01:30:35,760 --> 01:30:39,279
double manner in hypostasis, as relating to God the Word,

1378
01:30:39,840 --> 01:30:42,600
and in honor, as relating to him who was taken.

1379
01:30:43,079 --> 01:30:45,920
For in the honor of the union which he has

1380
01:30:46,159 --> 01:30:49,600
with God the Word, he is called son. He is

1381
01:30:49,760 --> 01:30:54,159
not son because of himself, nor in himself, nor through grace,

1382
01:30:54,319 --> 01:30:57,479
like those who are baptized, these being sons through grace.

1383
01:30:58,279 --> 01:31:00,600
The sonship therefore of the god Head and of the

1384
01:31:00,720 --> 01:31:04,640
manhood is not one in a composition of one hypostasis,

1385
01:31:05,079 --> 01:31:08,600
but in honor. If we say that, as in the

1386
01:31:08,680 --> 01:31:12,039
composition of a hypostasis, is there the form of a

1387
01:31:12,159 --> 01:31:16,000
servant who was taken and of him who takes united together,

1388
01:31:16,720 --> 01:31:19,000
he who was taken would be found to be derived

1389
01:31:19,079 --> 01:31:22,159
from the Father. If it is not by union or

1390
01:31:22,199 --> 01:31:30,039
by conjunction that he is called son. Okay, now, let's

1391
01:31:30,159 --> 01:31:38,000
contrast that to how we understand one person. When Saint

1392
01:31:38,159 --> 01:31:41,399
Justinian writes of one person and also of the fifty

1393
01:31:41,560 --> 01:31:45,960
humenical council. Nor do we believe that the divine logos

1394
01:31:46,039 --> 01:31:49,199
in Christ are different persons. But we confess that the

1395
01:31:49,279 --> 01:31:52,760
Lord Jesus Christ and the divine Logos are one and

1396
01:31:53,439 --> 01:31:57,239
the same. And so although we say there are two

1397
01:31:57,359 --> 01:32:00,199
different natures in one and the same only be God

1398
01:32:00,279 --> 01:32:03,600
and Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, we do

1399
01:32:03,920 --> 01:32:08,920
not propose two sons, or hypostasis or prosopa. And at

1400
01:32:09,000 --> 01:32:13,520
the same time we confess his one hypostasis despising the

1401
01:32:13,640 --> 01:32:18,079
division of Nestorius, and then the other one from the fifth.

1402
01:32:18,119 --> 01:32:20,880
A communical council is one that I already talked about.

1403
01:32:21,600 --> 01:32:26,520
But this is again really important because Rome would agree

1404
01:32:26,680 --> 01:32:30,319
with Saint Justinian. Saint Justinian is a saint under Rome,

1405
01:32:30,680 --> 01:32:34,000
they would agree with his Christology. And when you look

1406
01:32:34,079 --> 01:32:39,880
at what Nestorius himself says and what we hold to

1407
01:32:39,960 --> 01:32:47,199
a ar theology, they are irreconcilable. They're one hundred percent irreconcilable.

1408
01:32:49,079 --> 01:32:52,199
So now where do we get that Christ is a mediator?

1409
01:32:53,279 --> 01:32:57,399
So in the Orthodox position, Christ is consubstantial with the

1410
01:32:57,479 --> 01:33:01,359
Father and his divinity. Christ is consubstantial with us in

1411
01:33:01,439 --> 01:33:05,199
his humanity. So Christ is the mediator between us and

1412
01:33:05,319 --> 01:33:08,600
the Father because he is perfectly consubstantial with both the

1413
01:33:08,680 --> 01:33:13,640
Father and us. So we see here that Christ incarnating

1414
01:33:14,119 --> 01:33:19,800
is salvific. But for the Orientals, well, you don't have

1415
01:33:19,920 --> 01:33:24,199
consubstantiality with the Father, you don't have consubstantiality with us,

1416
01:33:25,279 --> 01:33:29,279
and so you can't have Christ being a mediator if

1417
01:33:29,359 --> 01:33:36,039
he is some unique tertium quid. So Christ incarnating is

1418
01:33:36,239 --> 01:33:41,159
not sealvific. There's no metaphysics to explain why Christ incarnating

1419
01:33:41,319 --> 01:33:46,119
would be salvific if he's not consubstantial to us. And

1420
01:33:46,199 --> 01:33:50,560
in the Church of the East a historian position, Christ

1421
01:33:51,000 --> 01:33:55,000
is not consubstantial with the Father. The logos in Christ

1422
01:33:55,479 --> 01:33:59,640
is what's consubstantial or who is consistential with the Father. Likewise,

1423
01:33:59,720 --> 01:34:04,199
Christ is not consubstantial to us. Only Jesus or the

1424
01:34:04,319 --> 01:34:09,439
human component in Christ, is consubstantial with us. So then

1425
01:34:09,560 --> 01:34:12,479
Christ cannot be the mediator between us and the Father

1426
01:34:12,840 --> 01:34:16,920
because he has no real ontological.

1427
01:34:16,520 --> 01:34:20,319
Speaker 1: I'd like to interject here because it's also important to

1428
01:34:20,399 --> 01:34:23,520
understand that the essence energy distinction is crucial at this

1429
01:34:23,640 --> 01:34:27,279
point to understand the metaphysics as you're speaking of by

1430
01:34:27,399 --> 01:34:30,399
which we are deified, and that deification is first of

1431
01:34:30,439 --> 01:34:35,439
all rooted in the glories, graces, and immortality, et cetera,

1432
01:34:35,640 --> 01:34:38,600
that the divine person of the word communicates to the

1433
01:34:38,680 --> 01:34:41,760
human nature that he assumed. This is pretty consistent throughout

1434
01:34:41,760 --> 01:34:44,279
the Church Fathers, but it really gets explicated especially in

1435
01:34:44,359 --> 01:34:49,159
John Damascus in book three about chapter fifteen onwards, where

1436
01:34:49,199 --> 01:34:52,199
he talks about the energies in Christ. It's restated at

1437
01:34:52,720 --> 01:34:55,119
the six Ecumenical Council where it says that the human

1438
01:34:55,199 --> 01:34:58,279
nature that he assumed he fully deified. How does this

1439
01:34:58,399 --> 01:35:01,479
deification occur? Well, two Letters to six Census and many

1440
01:35:01,520 --> 01:35:06,640
other texts of Saint Cyril, as David mentioned earlier, talk

1441
01:35:06,680 --> 01:35:10,279
about the uncreated energy in Christ deifying the human nature

1442
01:35:10,319 --> 01:35:12,720
that he assumed. So you have to keep in mind

1443
01:35:12,800 --> 01:35:16,840
that it is first of all rooted in this hypostatic

1444
01:35:16,960 --> 01:35:19,960
union as we're talking about. But what that hyposthetic union

1445
01:35:20,000 --> 01:35:24,000
affects is a synergy and a deification of the human

1446
01:35:24,119 --> 01:35:27,800
nature at the level of natures. So you understand that

1447
01:35:28,119 --> 01:35:30,960
it is a real raising of the human nature, a

1448
01:35:31,119 --> 01:35:34,000
real union. Otherwise there wouldn't there would not be a

1449
01:35:34,039 --> 01:35:37,319
real deification were it not a real union. And this

1450
01:35:37,479 --> 01:35:40,319
is so crucial to understand, not just for Christology, but

1451
01:35:40,439 --> 01:35:44,000
also for soteriology. So I know we're not specifically on

1452
01:35:44,079 --> 01:35:46,520
the point of the energies yet, but the two energies,

1453
01:35:46,680 --> 01:35:50,439
which is a necessary corollary of the two wills doctrine

1454
01:35:50,520 --> 01:35:57,359
of diophysitism, right, is bound up with the deification of

1455
01:35:57,399 --> 01:36:00,720
the human nature by the uncreated in energies of Christ,

1456
01:36:00,920 --> 01:36:03,520
not by the divine essence of Christ, but by the

1457
01:36:03,560 --> 01:36:09,520
divine energies of Christ, interpenetrating and fully suffusing the human

1458
01:36:09,640 --> 01:36:15,760
nature without destroying, without diminution, without division, without any destruction

1459
01:36:16,079 --> 01:36:18,399
to the properties of those natures. So even though the

1460
01:36:18,439 --> 01:36:22,159
human nature gets deified, and that's the root of our steriology,

1461
01:36:22,279 --> 01:36:25,920
it never ceases to create to retain his created properties,

1462
01:36:26,159 --> 01:36:28,079
so it never sees as being a creature, but it's

1463
01:36:28,119 --> 01:36:30,840
a deified creature. And again this is the two Letters

1464
01:36:30,920 --> 01:36:34,000
of Cerial to six Census, where he specifically talks about

1465
01:36:34,279 --> 01:36:37,640
even after the Resurrection, when Christ was no longer susceptible

1466
01:36:37,680 --> 01:36:40,960
to the blameless passions, right, he could still eat because

1467
01:36:40,960 --> 01:36:44,239
he willed to, even though he has this transfigured flesh.

1468
01:36:44,680 --> 01:36:47,560
And Cyril says that that transfigured flesh comes about not

1469
01:36:47,800 --> 01:36:50,600
by the divine essence communicating anything to the humanity, but

1470
01:36:50,760 --> 01:36:53,960
by the uncreated energies communicating to the humanity in Christ

1471
01:36:54,560 --> 01:36:57,479
that destroys Roman Catholicism and Tomism.

1472
01:36:57,680 --> 01:37:01,800
Speaker 2: By the way, another point that I also want to

1473
01:37:01,840 --> 01:37:09,640
make in addition is, look, you know Orientals and the historians,

1474
01:37:09,680 --> 01:37:12,840
they can say, and sometimes you know, their figures do say,

1475
01:37:12,880 --> 01:37:15,520
you know, Christ is constantial with the Father, Christ consubstantial

1476
01:37:15,600 --> 01:37:18,760
with us. But it's it's similar to how a Poulinarius

1477
01:37:18,760 --> 01:37:21,600
will say, right, Paulinaries will say Christ is doubly consubstantial.

1478
01:37:21,720 --> 01:37:24,359
But what they mean by consubstantial, for example, in this

1479
01:37:24,520 --> 01:37:27,279
case is Christ has a human body, because they think

1480
01:37:27,319 --> 01:37:29,880
the soul is the human you know, is the person

1481
01:37:29,960 --> 01:37:33,920
that is the human person. So it's important, Okay, what

1482
01:37:34,000 --> 01:37:36,119
do we mean by consubstantial and this is the question

1483
01:37:36,239 --> 01:37:37,600
that we should be asking ourselves.

1484
01:37:37,640 --> 01:37:43,319
Speaker 1: Okay, the soul is the person a Pollinarius, Oh yeah, okay, yeah,

1485
01:37:43,319 --> 01:37:44,119
exactly right.

1486
01:37:44,319 --> 01:37:47,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, So like that's what he means that Christ is

1487
01:37:47,600 --> 01:37:51,039
consubstantial with us. When he says that, what he means

1488
01:37:51,159 --> 01:37:54,039
is he's not actually fully consubstantial, He's just consubstantial with

1489
01:37:54,119 --> 01:37:54,840
the human body.

1490
01:37:55,359 --> 01:37:57,039
Speaker 4: That's that's basically all that he's trying to say.

1491
01:37:57,319 --> 01:38:00,560
Speaker 2: When we say this, we're saying, and this is the

1492
01:38:00,640 --> 01:38:02,560
question that we must ask, what do we actually mean

1493
01:38:02,640 --> 01:38:05,880
by consubstantial? What does this term actually mean? What it

1494
01:38:06,000 --> 01:38:10,119
means is that there's something real that is in Christ

1495
01:38:10,560 --> 01:38:15,239
that we share as well, namely humanity. It's not just

1496
01:38:15,359 --> 01:38:17,479
that Christ is a body and the soul. We have

1497
01:38:17,560 --> 01:38:19,039
a different kind of a body and the soul, and

1498
01:38:19,159 --> 01:38:21,479
we you know, we use the same terminology, and they're

1499
01:38:21,640 --> 01:38:23,960
very similar, They're very close. And that's why, No, there

1500
01:38:24,079 --> 01:38:30,319
is a real ontological similarity with Christ's humanity and or humanity,

1501
01:38:30,399 --> 01:38:34,000
namely that or nature is the same. It's it's identical.

1502
01:38:34,399 --> 01:38:38,119
And this identical nature is something again, as I said,

1503
01:38:38,239 --> 01:38:42,840
it's a real ontological reality. This is why Christ's activities

1504
01:38:42,920 --> 01:38:44,560
in his humanity affects us.

1505
01:38:45,199 --> 01:38:47,600
Speaker 4: And you can say that these effects.

1506
01:38:47,399 --> 01:38:51,359
Speaker 2: Are actualized in a solvage way once that person joins

1507
01:38:51,359 --> 01:38:54,039
the Orthodox Church, right, once that person is baptized, Once

1508
01:38:54,079 --> 01:38:58,720
that person partakes of what Christ did and of what

1509
01:38:58,880 --> 01:39:03,720
he accomplished, this becomes the case. The problem is what

1510
01:39:04,159 --> 01:39:07,159
in the Oriental and in the Nestorian view, what do

1511
01:39:07,239 --> 01:39:11,880
you actually mean by consubstantial? And if you mean consistantial

1512
01:39:11,960 --> 01:39:14,920
with the sense that you know, as we say that

1513
01:39:15,159 --> 01:39:19,359
Christ and human beings and Christ with the Father, there

1514
01:39:19,479 --> 01:39:24,359
is this realantological sameness, right, and he's not just some

1515
01:39:24,600 --> 01:39:29,199
kind of a nominal like same set, but a genuine sameness.

1516
01:39:29,960 --> 01:39:32,119
Then you have to confess to natures. You have to

1517
01:39:32,199 --> 01:39:35,000
acknowledge that Christ is in two natures. In order to

1518
01:39:35,079 --> 01:39:37,359
make that convention, you have to be able to say

1519
01:39:37,439 --> 01:39:41,479
that if you think that Christ is consistential with us

1520
01:39:41,520 --> 01:39:44,960
in the sense that he has he is some kind

1521
01:39:45,000 --> 01:39:50,399
of you know, particular human existence that is in the

1522
01:39:50,479 --> 01:39:54,399
same set as this universal of all human particulars and

1523
01:39:54,600 --> 01:39:57,159
universal of all divine particulars, and he's part.

1524
01:39:57,000 --> 01:39:58,000
Speaker 4: Of those two sets.

1525
01:39:59,000 --> 01:40:00,920
Speaker 2: That kind of an understand I think is much closer

1526
01:40:00,920 --> 01:40:04,720
to noomenalism. If that's not already denomenalism. That's basically the

1527
01:40:04,760 --> 01:40:09,039
problem that's at hand. And if you read Seras Fantics,

1528
01:40:09,079 --> 01:40:11,560
and this is I guess we will be analyzed this

1529
01:40:11,640 --> 01:40:13,760
in the future presentation. But if you read Seras of

1530
01:40:13,840 --> 01:40:19,479
Antioch's letter to Julian, when Julian is an after taduktist,

1531
01:40:19,560 --> 01:40:23,319
which means he kind of denies that Christ has certain

1532
01:40:23,359 --> 01:40:25,920
specific human properties it's a lot stronger than just saying

1533
01:40:25,960 --> 01:40:28,640
that Christ doesn't suffer or anything like that. That he

1534
01:40:28,760 --> 01:40:31,840
kind of denies that Christ as human properties. He kind

1535
01:40:31,840 --> 01:40:33,880
of service kind of makes the point that you know,

1536
01:40:34,000 --> 01:40:37,119
Christ does not have a have two natures, but he

1537
01:40:37,279 --> 01:40:41,479
has properties, natural properties proper to human nature. Okay, So

1538
01:40:41,560 --> 01:40:44,079
does that not mean that he has human nature? I

1539
01:40:44,119 --> 01:40:47,840
mean does that mean that, of course he denies that

1540
01:40:47,920 --> 01:40:49,960
being the case, right, he denies that there is a

1541
01:40:50,119 --> 01:40:52,079
human nature and divine nature in Christ in order to

1542
01:40:52,119 --> 01:40:55,199
protect his old crystological projects, so to speak. So the

1543
01:40:55,319 --> 01:40:58,600
point here what you see with this slide is not

1544
01:40:58,840 --> 01:41:00,520
what orients and in the store.

1545
01:41:00,319 --> 01:41:02,640
Speaker 4: And say, is what actually is the case?

1546
01:41:03,479 --> 01:41:06,600
Speaker 2: That's very important to understand and when we again try

1547
01:41:06,640 --> 01:41:08,439
to talk about this, we need to ask us als, Okay,

1548
01:41:08,479 --> 01:41:10,319
what these terms, what do you actually mean by this?

1549
01:41:11,720 --> 01:41:15,520
And this is why double consubstantiality within your slax framework

1550
01:41:16,119 --> 01:41:19,279
is the doction of two natures. That's really kind of

1551
01:41:19,600 --> 01:41:21,359
you can even kind of say that's all there is

1552
01:41:22,000 --> 01:41:25,479
to it. It's kind of just very simple in this regard,

1553
01:41:25,800 --> 01:41:28,000
but it also has a lot of explanatory power in

1554
01:41:28,119 --> 01:41:31,560
order to understand how Christ has human activities. How Christ

1555
01:41:31,600 --> 01:41:34,199
as a human will and how the union of sativity

1556
01:41:34,199 --> 01:41:37,000
and humanity in the one person. You know, how there

1557
01:41:37,079 --> 01:41:40,760
is an interaction between the two. There's a lot of

1558
01:41:40,800 --> 01:41:42,840
expansive power in that regard. So that's all I wanted

1559
01:41:42,880 --> 01:41:43,159
to say.

1560
01:41:49,359 --> 01:41:58,520
Speaker 3: The Marganita, this is a very authoritative book in the

1561
01:41:58,680 --> 01:42:04,520
Church of the East. It is not a book that

1562
01:42:05,840 --> 01:42:12,720
an Assyrian Church of the East proponent can dismiss. It

1563
01:42:12,920 --> 01:42:18,039
is basically like catechortical instructions, if you will, It lays

1564
01:42:18,319 --> 01:42:24,720
out exactly what the Church of the East believes, using

1565
01:42:24,960 --> 01:42:33,119
its own terminology, its own phraseology. And this is that

1566
01:42:33,479 --> 01:42:43,239
what solidifies, if you will, that they are Nestorian without

1567
01:42:44,239 --> 01:42:53,880
a doubt. So in the Marganita, it segments the Orientals,

1568
01:42:55,199 --> 01:43:00,399
the Orthodox, and then the Church of the East, basically

1569
01:43:00,560 --> 01:43:09,479
identifying in the whole Kiana Knuma language what each respectively believes,

1570
01:43:11,079 --> 01:43:17,359
and so they the Margantha identifies the Orientals to hold

1571
01:43:17,439 --> 01:43:23,079
to one kana one kanuma basically one nature, one hypostasis.

1572
01:43:25,760 --> 01:43:30,600
With regards to the Orthodox, it basically says that we

1573
01:43:31,079 --> 01:43:39,359
profess two kiane, two natures, and one kanuma or one hypostasis.

1574
01:43:41,199 --> 01:43:47,479
And then it immediately follows and discusses the Nestorian or

1575
01:43:47,560 --> 01:43:53,279
the Church of the East position as consisting of two

1576
01:43:53,439 --> 01:43:59,079
kiane and two kume, so two natures and two hypostasis.

1577
01:44:00,800 --> 01:44:11,399
Now what's very interesting here is immediately following their statement

1578
01:44:11,520 --> 01:44:16,760
of what the Orthodox believe the Church of the East,

1579
01:44:17,039 --> 01:44:24,159
the Morganita, it does not redefine what cnuma means, so

1580
01:44:24,479 --> 01:44:34,439
its understanding of cnuma is functionally the same. And what

1581
01:44:34,720 --> 01:44:40,680
that then entails from a metaphysical perspective is the Marganita

1582
01:44:40,800 --> 01:44:46,359
the Church of the East correctly identifies metaphysically that the

1583
01:44:46,600 --> 01:44:51,399
Orthodox are saying that you can have one cnuma and

1584
01:44:51,640 --> 01:45:00,119
hipposthetizing to Kane, one hypostasis and hipposthetizing to natures. That

1585
01:45:00,239 --> 01:45:07,880
is correct, That is them clearly understanding the Orthodox position.

1586
01:45:10,079 --> 01:45:14,439
So then when they say to Knuma and Tukiane, they

1587
01:45:14,479 --> 01:45:23,159
are saying that metaphysically, each nature must have its own

1588
01:45:23,680 --> 01:45:30,199
particular individuating substrate, if you will, its own particular numa.

1589
01:45:34,880 --> 01:45:43,760
And then what the Marghanita says is they explicitly name Nestorius.

1590
01:45:45,760 --> 01:45:50,359
But they make a very big mistake that they probably

1591
01:45:50,439 --> 01:45:55,359
didn't even realize. And this is something what the Assyrian

1592
01:45:55,479 --> 01:46:00,720
speakers are perhaps ignorant of when they keep saying, oh,

1593
01:46:01,000 --> 01:46:05,079
it's a language issue, you don't know Syriac. There's a

1594
01:46:05,479 --> 01:46:10,079
specific meaning to Knuma all of that garbage, because they

1595
01:46:10,279 --> 01:46:19,720
say clearly that though Nestorius basically follows the position that

1596
01:46:20,000 --> 01:46:25,800
the Church of the East espouses, they say that Nestorius

1597
01:46:26,079 --> 01:46:31,479
held the same faith, but he didn't understand their language.

1598
01:46:31,800 --> 01:46:37,079
He didn't understand Syriac. So that means that if you

1599
01:46:37,279 --> 01:46:44,560
are telling us that Nestorius held the same faith, we

1600
01:46:44,760 --> 01:46:48,479
don't need to understand Syriac to understand what you believe.

1601
01:46:49,079 --> 01:46:52,760
We can understand Nestorius in the original Greek. We know

1602
01:46:53,000 --> 01:46:56,439
what Thestori has professed in the original Greek. That means

1603
01:46:56,800 --> 01:47:01,760
we do correctly understand what the Church of the East

1604
01:47:02,000 --> 01:47:08,880
is teaching, and we are correct in charging you with Nestorianism. Okay,

1605
01:47:09,199 --> 01:47:13,439
we don't need your kluma garbage. We don't need your Oh,

1606
01:47:13,600 --> 01:47:16,600
you don't understand what we're saying, because Syriac is a

1607
01:47:16,720 --> 01:47:23,159
mystical language that only us Assyrians can understand. No, we

1608
01:47:23,319 --> 01:47:28,119
understand what you're saying, and you are expressing specifically the

1609
01:47:28,319 --> 01:47:34,760
metaphysical move that you require to have a particular hippostatic

1610
01:47:34,880 --> 01:47:39,600
kind to individuate your nature, and that sets up a

1611
01:47:39,880 --> 01:47:47,079
double subject christology. And moreover, in your Marganita, you are

1612
01:47:47,279 --> 01:47:53,279
saying that you have two kluma, two subjects, but one will.

1613
01:47:53,760 --> 01:47:57,880
And you think that because you say that Christ has

1614
01:47:58,000 --> 01:48:03,920
one will or one son ship or one authority, that

1615
01:48:04,399 --> 01:48:09,560
this now is your one person, that is Christ. And

1616
01:48:09,720 --> 01:48:13,039
so now you're professing the the the Orthodox faith or

1617
01:48:13,119 --> 01:48:17,079
the true faith if you will. Well, it's clear that

1618
01:48:17,359 --> 01:48:23,199
when you're saying one person, you're not saying it in

1619
01:48:23,319 --> 01:48:28,000
the same way that we are saying one person, because

1620
01:48:28,319 --> 01:48:33,520
when you identify that we profess one cluma, that means

1621
01:48:33,600 --> 01:48:37,119
we profess one person. But when you say you have

1622
01:48:37,279 --> 01:48:42,640
two kluma, and then you're saying one person, well, if

1623
01:48:42,680 --> 01:48:46,920
you're going to deny that person equates with cnuma, So

1624
01:48:47,039 --> 01:48:51,399
then where what does person equate to? In your scheme?

1625
01:48:52,000 --> 01:48:56,039
You have no other ontology to point to but to will.

1626
01:48:57,880 --> 01:49:01,800
So for those who want to analyzer, who can understand

1627
01:49:02,479 --> 01:49:05,199
the Syriac, that's just the slide there that shows the

1628
01:49:05,319 --> 01:49:10,960
exact Syriac of the Marganita, that makes it crystal clear

1629
01:49:11,479 --> 01:49:19,239
exactly those terms being used. So the Margnita correctly identifies

1630
01:49:19,279 --> 01:49:22,560
the Orthodox Oriental and Church of the East positions with

1631
01:49:22,680 --> 01:49:28,680
regards to hypostasis and nature. It does not redefine nature

1632
01:49:29,000 --> 01:49:32,880
or person or like Keana or Knuma when elaborating the

1633
01:49:32,960 --> 01:49:36,560
Church of these positions for not person but hypostasis. So

1634
01:49:36,840 --> 01:49:41,960
there is no misunderstanding in Syriac between the Orthodox, Orientals

1635
01:49:42,079 --> 01:49:47,159
and Church of the East. The Morganita explicitly affirms that

1636
01:49:47,319 --> 01:49:50,239
the Church of the East professes the correct faith to

1637
01:49:50,319 --> 01:49:55,920
the exclusion of the Orthodox and Orientals. So this is

1638
01:49:56,000 --> 01:49:58,159
now setting up a problem for the Church of the

1639
01:49:58,279 --> 01:50:03,560
East to say that they profess the same theology as Rome,

1640
01:50:05,000 --> 01:50:09,920
because it clearly says that they don't, and it accepts

1641
01:50:10,000 --> 01:50:15,039
Nestorius as having correct theology, despite Mystorius not speaking or

1642
01:50:15,119 --> 01:50:19,880
writing in Syriac. And that is an admission that we

1643
01:50:20,000 --> 01:50:23,199
can understand the Church of the East theology in Greek

1644
01:50:23,840 --> 01:50:29,079
via Mystorius and by extension, Theodore of Mopsuestia. So Syriac

1645
01:50:29,239 --> 01:50:33,920
is not necessary to understand the Church of the Easts theology. Nevertheless,

1646
01:50:34,079 --> 01:50:38,520
we do understand your Syriac terminology. And so the modern

1647
01:50:38,600 --> 01:50:42,520
day proponents of the Church of the East are playing

1648
01:50:43,079 --> 01:50:47,960
word games when they insist that we as Orthodox do

1649
01:50:48,199 --> 01:50:54,840
not understand this Knuma nonsense. Okay, the issue is not

1650
01:50:55,039 --> 01:50:59,680
about Knuma. It is not about the Syriac language. You

1651
01:50:59,800 --> 01:51:06,000
guys can cry day and night about these terms. We

1652
01:51:06,199 --> 01:51:11,119
understand your metaphysics, We understand what you mean with your individuations.

1653
01:51:11,439 --> 01:51:14,600
We understand what you mean by your individuals and how

1654
01:51:14,640 --> 01:51:20,319
it pertains to universals in particulars. What is that play

1655
01:51:20,439 --> 01:51:23,159
here is that proponents of the Church of the East

1656
01:51:23,520 --> 01:51:29,920
are not competent in metaphysics to understand what their three

1657
01:51:30,039 --> 01:51:34,840
tier ontology actually entails, and they're being arrogant in their

1658
01:51:34,960 --> 01:51:43,520
claims by just simply relegating it as some Syriac terminology issue. Now,

1659
01:51:44,000 --> 01:51:47,039
this one, I don't think I need to really read.

1660
01:51:48,640 --> 01:51:50,600
All of what's quoted here is just put as a

1661
01:51:50,720 --> 01:51:54,720
reference just to establish the point that Christ has two

1662
01:51:54,880 --> 01:51:59,880
wills and not one one. One of the quotes is

1663
01:52:00,000 --> 01:52:03,279
from the letter of Pope Agatho. Then I'm quoting the

1664
01:52:04,520 --> 01:52:09,600
Catechism of the Orthodox Church, Catechism of the Catholic Church,

1665
01:52:10,119 --> 01:52:15,319
just to demonstrate that metaphysically, we believe that Christ has

1666
01:52:15,359 --> 01:52:18,680
two wills. So if you are going to enter into union,

1667
01:52:19,399 --> 01:52:25,479
then you have to press the same This is another one.

1668
01:52:25,600 --> 01:52:29,600
The definition of faith ratified at the sixth Ecumenical Council,

1669
01:52:29,800 --> 01:52:34,279
that makes it very clear that you must profess two wills,

1670
01:52:34,680 --> 01:52:38,960
and the Marganita it clearly says one will. And it

1671
01:52:39,079 --> 01:52:42,239
doesn't really matter all that much that you would have

1672
01:52:43,399 --> 01:52:45,560
other writings within the Church of the East that will

1673
01:52:45,640 --> 01:52:50,520
say two wills. In effect, you do have only one

1674
01:52:51,000 --> 01:52:54,720
one will. The importance of two wills is going to

1675
01:52:54,800 --> 01:53:01,479
come apparent when we have the stream on the energies

1676
01:53:02,479 --> 01:53:09,119
and wills being a property of nature. Now to unpack

1677
01:53:09,279 --> 01:53:14,800
the Nestorian monothelitism or this idea that Christ is one will.

1678
01:53:15,760 --> 01:53:17,760
So you have both the Church of the East and

1679
01:53:17,960 --> 01:53:22,880
the Orientals professing Christ to have one will. So then

1680
01:53:23,039 --> 01:53:27,520
you ask the question, well, is will a property of nature,

1681
01:53:27,920 --> 01:53:33,680
hypostasis or person? So the Orientals they'll take the position

1682
01:53:33,760 --> 01:53:38,279
that it's a property of the hypostasis. The Church of

1683
01:53:38,359 --> 01:53:42,840
the East must take will to be a property of

1684
01:53:43,159 --> 01:53:46,279
person in order to maintain and I'm going to use

1685
01:53:46,319 --> 01:53:50,840
this term loosely, a coherent metaphysics. I don't believe that

1686
01:53:50,920 --> 01:53:53,479
their metaphysics is coherent, but it's kind of like they

1687
01:53:53,520 --> 01:53:57,399
have certain premisses and in order to kind of maintain

1688
01:53:57,920 --> 01:54:00,800
the conclusions of those premisses and a coherent way they're

1689
01:54:00,880 --> 01:54:05,880
forced into a certain line of thinking. Will can't be

1690
01:54:06,000 --> 01:54:09,840
a property of nature because there is no union of

1691
01:54:10,079 --> 01:54:14,359
natures in Nestorian theology. In Church of the East theology,

1692
01:54:15,680 --> 01:54:19,520
will cannot be a property of hypostasis or kanuma because

1693
01:54:19,560 --> 01:54:25,279
there is no union of hypostasis or kanuma. So simply

1694
01:54:25,359 --> 01:54:29,319
by process of elimination, will must be a property of person,

1695
01:54:29,800 --> 01:54:35,239
wherein two wills come together in a prosopic union to

1696
01:54:35,399 --> 01:54:40,239
result in one will. However, this one will is a

1697
01:54:40,279 --> 01:54:44,640
will of unison and not unity, because the divine and

1698
01:54:44,800 --> 01:54:51,279
human subjects in Christ must maintain distinct personhood in order

1699
01:54:51,399 --> 01:54:56,439
for there to be a quote unquote prosopic union, i e.

1700
01:54:56,600 --> 01:55:02,039
A mixing of concrete ontological existence is not allowed. So

1701
01:55:02,239 --> 01:55:09,720
a prosopic union necessitates to prosopa to persons. Otherwise there

1702
01:55:10,000 --> 01:55:14,560
is no union because the natures and the hypostasis or

1703
01:55:14,800 --> 01:55:20,920
the kiana and the krume are not what unite. So

1704
01:55:21,159 --> 01:55:26,600
if the Logos gifts his person his parsupa to the humanity,

1705
01:55:27,960 --> 01:55:30,880
and it is in that where the union is realized,

1706
01:55:31,680 --> 01:55:37,760
then that is admission that there are two subjects in Christ,

1707
01:55:38,520 --> 01:55:43,640
because if the humanity requires a parsupa, a person wherever

1708
01:55:43,800 --> 01:55:48,039
it comes from divinity or elsewhere, then it demonstrates that

1709
01:55:48,199 --> 01:55:55,199
the humanity in Christ is comprised of nature, hypostasis, and person.

1710
01:55:56,439 --> 01:56:02,000
So then to what ontology does will refer process of

1711
01:56:02,039 --> 01:56:04,840
elimination forced it to refer to the ontology of person,

1712
01:56:05,199 --> 01:56:09,640
and in order to maintain a coherent quote unquote coherent metaphysics,

1713
01:56:09,960 --> 01:56:14,560
the ontology has to be real. It can't be an aggregate,

1714
01:56:15,000 --> 01:56:21,520
meaning that there must be two persons. So now this

1715
01:56:21,720 --> 01:56:26,680
whole thing that Nestorius really was a Nestorian, because there

1716
01:56:26,880 --> 01:56:32,079
have been some articles, some pseudo scholarship, and some bullship

1717
01:56:32,199 --> 01:56:37,399
being presented that Nestorius really wasn't a Nestorian. So when

1718
01:56:37,520 --> 01:56:49,800
we unpack this, the Nestorian three tier ontology is nature, hypostasis, person, kiana, knuma, persupa.

1719
01:56:50,720 --> 01:56:56,119
The kiana is your abstract common or your universal, your

1720
01:56:56,199 --> 01:57:02,920
knuma is your individuated, nature is your individual. So now

1721
01:57:02,960 --> 01:57:06,720
we remember that will. We have to take will as

1722
01:57:06,720 --> 01:57:10,520
a property of person of parsupa. So if Christ has

1723
01:57:10,600 --> 01:57:13,279
two wills, you see, because this is what the Nestorians

1724
01:57:13,319 --> 01:57:15,159
are gonna do they're gonna say, no, we deny that

1725
01:57:15,279 --> 01:57:19,079
Christ is one will. Christ will have two wills. Well,

1726
01:57:19,279 --> 01:57:23,520
you've got two natures, you've got two hypostases, you've got

1727
01:57:23,560 --> 01:57:29,279
two wills. That means you have two persons. And if

1728
01:57:29,359 --> 01:57:33,960
Nestorius's prosopic union is a quote unquote union of divine

1729
01:57:33,960 --> 01:57:36,920
and human wills, that's how you get your one will.

1730
01:57:38,640 --> 01:57:41,600
So the divine Logos gives his will to human Jesus

1731
01:57:41,960 --> 01:57:46,199
in order to quote unquote unite the two persons into

1732
01:57:46,399 --> 01:57:52,359
one person. And so the Nestorian incarnation is not an

1733
01:57:52,439 --> 01:57:58,520
ontological incarnation of the Logos. It is a gifting of

1734
01:57:58,760 --> 01:58:04,880
the divine will to a human subject. And so that

1735
01:58:05,199 --> 01:58:10,000
means that, in effect, the prosopic union is not a

1736
01:58:10,199 --> 01:58:15,560
real union. It is an illusion. What you have are

1737
01:58:15,960 --> 01:58:19,119
two subjects in unison.

1738
01:58:20,039 --> 01:58:23,000
Speaker 1: What does that exactly mean to gift the will? I mean,

1739
01:58:23,079 --> 01:58:26,239
that's just a very bizarre I mean, obviously he can't

1740
01:58:26,319 --> 01:58:30,600
undergo change and lose or forego the human will. So

1741
01:58:30,800 --> 01:58:33,119
what does it mean to gift a will to the humanity.

1742
01:58:33,680 --> 01:58:37,359
Speaker 3: It just means that the humanity will always act in

1743
01:58:37,479 --> 01:58:43,199
accordance to what the divine will wants or like wills,

1744
01:58:43,359 --> 01:58:44,680
it's basically.

1745
01:58:44,760 --> 01:58:48,520
Speaker 1: I think will in other words, grace. He graces the

1746
01:58:48,560 --> 01:58:51,199
humanity to always operate correctly.

1747
01:58:52,640 --> 01:58:57,239
Speaker 3: It essentially becomes like the logos is remote piloting a

1748
01:58:57,359 --> 01:59:00,159
human body. It's like he's playing a video game, if

1749
01:59:00,199 --> 01:59:03,439
you will. He has this little controller and he's exercising

1750
01:59:03,600 --> 01:59:07,399
his will to be actualized in humanity.

1751
01:59:07,840 --> 01:59:11,520
Speaker 2: But the main actisations started for cutting after it. But

1752
01:59:11,720 --> 01:59:13,800
the main actiation that you get from seeing curle F

1753
01:59:13,800 --> 01:59:17,800
Alexandria is that this kind of picture is basically like,

1754
01:59:17,880 --> 01:59:21,039
how is it any different from God? You know, the

1755
01:59:21,119 --> 01:59:24,079
Holy Spirit speaking true prophets? Right, this is the kind

1756
01:59:24,119 --> 01:59:26,199
of thing that they that he criticized, Like, this is

1757
01:59:26,239 --> 01:59:30,000
basically like big, No, this seems no different than the

1758
01:59:30,039 --> 01:59:33,159
Holy Spirit coming into a prophet and like having him speak,

1759
01:59:34,079 --> 01:59:36,840
Like where's the difference? And I think like logically speaking,

1760
01:59:36,880 --> 01:59:38,680
there doesn't seem to be any difference. It's just kind

1761
01:59:38,680 --> 01:59:42,039
of like instead of just like speaking like at a

1762
01:59:42,119 --> 01:59:46,960
point in time, like Christ is only just speaking by

1763
01:59:47,079 --> 01:59:49,279
the inspiration of the Holy Spirit within this picture, and

1764
01:59:49,359 --> 01:59:52,119
that's like what makes him different amongst other things as

1765
01:59:52,159 --> 01:59:54,119
well in this in this scheme.

1766
01:59:55,640 --> 01:59:59,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, but operationally there is no difference the main difference is,

1767
01:59:59,439 --> 02:00:03,199
like as you said, David, it's just an ongoing occurrence

1768
02:00:03,439 --> 02:00:06,600
of the logos rather than just a single moment in time.

1769
02:00:10,399 --> 02:00:14,800
So let's take a look at some example through the

1770
02:00:14,920 --> 02:00:19,760
Nestorian three tirontology how we can conceptualize this. So if

1771
02:00:19,840 --> 02:00:23,439
we're looking at kianu kruma, parsupa or nature hypostasis person.

1772
02:00:24,279 --> 02:00:28,880
So the nature in Christ you could say, is human,

1773
02:00:30,399 --> 02:00:36,600
the knuma is Jesus, and the parsupa is that this

1774
02:00:37,279 --> 02:00:41,800
Jesus is thirty three years old. Because that being thirty

1775
02:00:41,840 --> 02:00:45,399
three years old is what's going to distinguish that kunuma

1776
02:00:45,520 --> 02:00:48,159
from a different knuma that is, let's say twenty five

1777
02:00:48,239 --> 02:00:54,359
years old. There's some differentiating property that individualizes that knuma

1778
02:00:54,680 --> 02:01:01,159
to set it apart from all other instances of human. Well,

1779
02:01:01,239 --> 02:01:03,399
if you look at the divine aspect, so you have

1780
02:01:03,800 --> 02:01:08,000
the nature is divine, the knuma is the logos. So

1781
02:01:08,199 --> 02:01:10,399
it's not the Father, it's not the Holy Spirit, it

1782
02:01:10,640 --> 02:01:14,720
is the logos. But then what's the parsupa. It's that

1783
02:01:15,000 --> 02:01:20,920
it's eternal or it's quote unquote son. And so in

1784
02:01:21,039 --> 02:01:27,079
the prosopic union, sonship is given by the external divine logo,

1785
02:01:27,279 --> 02:01:30,680
the eternal divine logos to the thirty three year old

1786
02:01:30,800 --> 02:01:35,439
man Jesus, and this gifting of sonship. So remember that

1787
02:01:35,600 --> 02:01:40,199
quote from the fore from Nestorius of saying son by honor.

1788
02:01:40,760 --> 02:01:44,600
So Jesus is son basically by honor. The gifting of

1789
02:01:44,760 --> 02:01:49,880
sonship by the logos results in the quote unquote person

1790
02:01:49,960 --> 02:01:53,479
of Christ. And so then Christ just becomes a name

1791
02:01:54,079 --> 02:01:59,960
indicating the gifting of sonship to Jesus. And so Christ

1792
02:02:00,520 --> 02:02:06,159
in this metaphysical system does not have a distinct hypostasis,

1793
02:02:06,520 --> 02:02:10,600
does not have a distinct curuma. There is no one

1794
02:02:10,720 --> 02:02:14,800
to one hypostasis or cnuma two person part super relationship

1795
02:02:15,239 --> 02:02:19,960
for Christ. So the two subject christology is the result

1796
02:02:20,159 --> 02:02:24,840
of the prosopic union. And this is vehemently opposed by

1797
02:02:25,119 --> 02:02:28,680
Orthodox It is an ereconcilable difference.

1798
02:02:28,760 --> 02:02:31,039
Speaker 1: So what I have a questionnaire? Would that mean then

1799
02:02:31,119 --> 02:02:36,359
that the a Nestorian here doesn't affirm eternal generation because

1800
02:02:36,560 --> 02:02:40,640
if sonship is something that's given in the economia, it's

1801
02:02:40,720 --> 02:02:41,960
not an eternal relationship.

1802
02:02:42,960 --> 02:02:45,760
Speaker 3: Well, that would be applicable to the Jesus correct to

1803
02:02:45,800 --> 02:02:46,399
the humanity.

1804
02:02:47,760 --> 02:02:49,960
Speaker 2: I think I think it's more like they will affirm

1805
02:02:50,079 --> 02:02:54,279
that the word is begotten of the father. But that

1806
02:02:55,279 --> 02:02:59,239
so there's certain like the terms, the names, they don't

1807
02:02:59,359 --> 02:03:00,439
apply to.

1808
02:03:02,079 --> 02:03:02,680
Speaker 4: Communication.

1809
02:03:03,279 --> 02:03:04,880
Speaker 1: So Sun is a name that only applies in the

1810
02:03:04,920 --> 02:03:05,840
economy as all right.

1811
02:03:06,000 --> 02:03:08,800
Speaker 2: So Christ is a term that applies to both natures.

1812
02:03:09,439 --> 02:03:12,760
But if you say, for example, Jesus, that only applies

1813
02:03:12,840 --> 02:03:15,640
to the human right, So that's that's the kind of

1814
02:03:16,199 --> 02:03:20,159
naming convention. So Nestorians won't deny the eternal generation.

1815
02:03:20,439 --> 02:03:21,479
Speaker 4: This affirms it.

1816
02:03:21,600 --> 02:03:26,640
Speaker 2: But you know, he's yeah, so in terms of like

1817
02:03:26,960 --> 02:03:30,600
again like this is comic, communicunty, mattern, the communication of properties.

1818
02:03:31,079 --> 02:03:34,239
You don't have this in especially in this story, in

1819
02:03:34,359 --> 02:03:37,720
later in later this you know, in some Nestorians, for

1820
02:03:37,840 --> 02:03:41,680
who try to affirm the community cousture, they affirmed this

1821
02:03:41,840 --> 02:03:45,680
only as a manner of speaking, right thermis.

1822
02:03:45,039 --> 02:03:46,680
Speaker 4: In antological way like we do.

1823
02:03:46,880 --> 02:03:49,479
Speaker 2: For example, so when we say that, for example, the

1824
02:03:49,560 --> 02:03:53,159
Lord of Glory, Lord of Majesty was cruticified.

1825
02:03:54,720 --> 02:03:56,319
Speaker 4: For source, it's just a way of saying.

1826
02:03:56,560 --> 02:03:58,920
Speaker 2: But when we say that, we know the Lord of

1827
02:03:59,319 --> 02:04:05,239
Glory ontologically really was crucified, right, the divine logos was crucified.

1828
02:04:05,800 --> 02:04:07,520
The reason why he was critified was certainly because he

1829
02:04:07,560 --> 02:04:09,920
had a body and the soul, body and the soul.

1830
02:04:10,000 --> 02:04:14,199
But the communication of divine energies between the two persons

1831
02:04:14,279 --> 02:04:17,720
in Christ is ontological. It's not just a manner of speaking,

1832
02:04:17,760 --> 02:04:20,359
it's it's not a way of speaking, right, It's a

1833
02:04:20,439 --> 02:04:24,359
real ontological thing. That's what distinguishes us from the position.

1834
02:04:24,479 --> 02:04:29,880
But Earlierians like Theodore, the story is they're pretty much yeah,

1835
02:04:29,960 --> 02:04:33,479
this kind of like communication of names. Even they didn't

1836
02:04:33,479 --> 02:04:35,520
even accept that. So that's kind of where that comes from.

1837
02:04:36,000 --> 02:04:44,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, when we consider Mariology, this is basically informing your Christology.

1838
02:04:44,520 --> 02:04:50,960
So the way we understand the Virgin Mary will basically

1839
02:04:51,239 --> 02:04:55,680
tell us whether or not you hold to an orthodox Christology.

1840
02:04:57,000 --> 02:04:59,920
And so when we look at what Nestorius writes and

1841
02:05:00,079 --> 02:05:03,039
his first letter to the Bishop of Rome san Celestine,

1842
02:05:03,439 --> 02:05:06,640
so this is leading up basically there are a bunch

1843
02:05:06,720 --> 02:05:12,920
of letters being communicated between Rome between Alexandria leading up

1844
02:05:12,960 --> 02:05:16,640
to the Third Ecumenical Council, and so Nestorius is writing,

1845
02:05:16,800 --> 02:05:21,039
we reject applying the term theotokos to the Virgin Mary,

1846
02:05:21,760 --> 02:05:25,640
for properly, the nativity was consubstantial with the one giving birth,

1847
02:05:25,960 --> 02:05:28,840
while his manifestation in a human being resulted from the

1848
02:05:28,920 --> 02:05:33,439
creation of the Lord's manhood joined to the Godhead from

1849
02:05:33,560 --> 02:05:38,840
the Virgin through the Spirit. Okay, So this is rejection

1850
02:05:39,119 --> 02:05:41,840
of the term deo tokus, and it's going to be

1851
02:05:41,840 --> 02:05:47,079
important in a moment. Nestorius in his second letter Christ tokos,

1852
02:05:47,119 --> 02:05:50,439
so this is the preferred term for this expression uses

1853
02:05:50,479 --> 02:05:54,640
a name that signifies both natures, namely Christ, and it

1854
02:05:54,880 --> 02:06:01,039
conjoins Godhead and manhood in one adoration, since the Godhead

1855
02:06:01,039 --> 02:06:03,199
of the son is consistential with the Godhead of the Father,

1856
02:06:03,720 --> 02:06:07,159
while the manhood was born at a later time from

1857
02:06:07,199 --> 02:06:10,640
the Holy Virgin, and because of its conjunction with the Godhead,

1858
02:06:11,000 --> 02:06:17,359
is worshiped together with it by men and angels. So basically,

1859
02:06:17,840 --> 02:06:22,560
what he's saying here is the only reason why you

1860
02:06:22,720 --> 02:06:26,239
can worship Christ in his humanity is because of its

1861
02:06:26,279 --> 02:06:31,720
association to the Divinity, and it's a conjunction, and that

1862
02:06:32,000 --> 02:06:36,399
is what makes the adoration possible. And this is why

1863
02:06:36,560 --> 02:06:42,279
he wants that term riso tolkus. Now Saint Cyril in

1864
02:06:42,359 --> 02:06:47,119
his second letter to Nestorius, he's basically responding to this understanding.

1865
02:06:47,520 --> 02:06:52,119
He's saying, we do not worship a man together with

1866
02:06:53,000 --> 02:06:57,359
the word, lest a semblance of division might creep in

1867
02:06:57,720 --> 02:07:00,840
through the use of the word quote unquote with But

1868
02:07:01,000 --> 02:07:05,319
we worship him as one and the same, because the

1869
02:07:05,439 --> 02:07:08,600
body with which he is enthroned with the Father is

1870
02:07:08,800 --> 02:07:13,000
not alien to the Word. So Saint Cyril is talking

1871
02:07:13,119 --> 02:07:18,199
metaphysics here, he's talking ontology. He's saying, we are worshiping

1872
02:07:18,560 --> 02:07:23,000
the same ontology that is the Word. And this is

1873
02:07:23,159 --> 02:07:28,600
why we call the Virgin Mary Theotokos, in understanding of

1874
02:07:28,960 --> 02:07:33,239
the ontology that she is giving birth to. And then

1875
02:07:33,439 --> 02:07:36,760
Nestorius in his second letter to Saint Cyril, for I

1876
02:07:36,880 --> 02:07:40,560
do not understand how it meaning the hypostatic union could

1877
02:07:40,680 --> 02:07:44,720
introduce the one declared earlier to be impassable and incapable

1878
02:07:44,800 --> 02:07:48,800
of a second birth as again passable and newly created,

1879
02:07:49,159 --> 02:07:51,640
as if the natural properties of God the Word are

1880
02:07:51,800 --> 02:07:55,960
destroyed by conjunction with a temple, or as if it

1881
02:07:56,039 --> 02:07:59,960
is thought a trivial thing by men that the sinless temple,

1882
02:08:00,319 --> 02:08:04,560
inseparable from the divine nature, should undergo birth and death

1883
02:08:04,840 --> 02:08:11,760
on behalf of sinners. So Nestorius is crystal clear the ontology,

1884
02:08:11,880 --> 02:08:18,520
that is the logos, is not incarnating. That's not what's happening.

1885
02:08:18,960 --> 02:08:23,079
The logos is not in fleshing. It is not the ontology,

1886
02:08:23,159 --> 02:08:25,159
that is the logos that is in fleshing. And he's

1887
02:08:25,239 --> 02:08:29,439
making it crystal clear. And the Marganitha is saying that

1888
02:08:30,000 --> 02:08:32,479
this is the position of the Church of the East,

1889
02:08:32,800 --> 02:08:36,199
because this is what Nestorians believe. Nestorius in the Church

1890
02:08:36,239 --> 02:08:38,560
of the East belief in the exact same thing. Well,

1891
02:08:38,800 --> 02:08:46,840
this is what Nestorius believes. Let's look at what the

1892
02:08:47,000 --> 02:08:51,359
Metropolitan of Malabar and India of the Assyrian Church of

1893
02:08:51,479 --> 02:08:56,359
the East says. So this is now an official cleric,

1894
02:08:57,279 --> 02:09:03,640
high ranking cleric in the Church of the East. The

1895
02:09:03,800 --> 02:09:07,880
necessity for a Nestorian Christology becomes inevitable when we think

1896
02:09:08,000 --> 02:09:11,359
of the greatest position ascribed to Virgin Mary in the

1897
02:09:11,479 --> 02:09:16,279
Roman Catholic Church. The fear expressed by Nestorius against the

1898
02:09:16,439 --> 02:09:19,600
use of theotokos should not be ignored. It is one

1899
02:09:19,640 --> 02:09:23,479
of the positive contributions of Nestorius to have exposed the

1900
02:09:23,560 --> 02:09:28,039
potential danger of this title. As far back as our

1901
02:09:28,079 --> 02:09:31,159
records of history go, there was nobody to speak against

1902
02:09:31,199 --> 02:09:34,199
this title before four to twenty eight AD, though it

1903
02:09:34,359 --> 02:09:37,920
was used by certain individuals. Perhaps it would have become

1904
02:09:38,000 --> 02:09:41,720
the standard expression of all Christians if Nestorius did not

1905
02:09:42,000 --> 02:09:44,079
wage such a crusade against this title.

1906
02:09:44,600 --> 02:09:47,119
Speaker 2: Can I just interject for this moment. I find it

1907
02:09:47,239 --> 02:09:49,600
really funny that he says it was used by certain

1908
02:09:49,680 --> 02:09:58,560
individuals like Saint Gregory Theologian. Yes, yes, certain individuals, certain individuals.

1909
02:09:59,319 --> 02:09:59,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean this.

1910
02:10:00,000 --> 02:10:03,880
Speaker 2: So this was pretty much like at the time this

1911
02:10:04,079 --> 02:10:09,119
term was introduced, theotokos was very much instantly received, very much,

1912
02:10:09,479 --> 02:10:10,560
very yeah, very much.

1913
02:10:11,640 --> 02:10:15,079
Speaker 3: Till the Reformation in the sixteenth century, the Church of

1914
02:10:15,159 --> 02:10:17,720
the East was the only church which shared the concern

1915
02:10:17,960 --> 02:10:23,600
of Nestorius against the use of theo tokus. Since the Reformation, however,

1916
02:10:23,960 --> 02:10:28,000
many churches share this attitude, and thus the position taken

1917
02:10:28,039 --> 02:10:31,199
by the Church of the East singularly down through the

1918
02:10:31,319 --> 02:10:38,359
centuries is vindicated. Oh okay, so the Reformation actually was

1919
02:10:39,680 --> 02:10:43,199
was productive. You agree with the Reformation, you guys in

1920
02:10:43,239 --> 02:10:46,000
the Church of the East. You're siding with the reformers.

1921
02:10:46,640 --> 02:10:49,399
Oh but wait a minute, aren't you part of this

1922
02:10:49,520 --> 02:10:58,560
whole apostolic Christianity movement? Apparently not. The christological formula of

1923
02:10:58,720 --> 02:11:02,640
this church is that the prosopic union, rejecting the formula

1924
02:11:02,760 --> 02:11:07,960
of hypostatic union accepted by both Catholics and the Eastern

1925
02:11:08,079 --> 02:11:13,960
Orthodox churches. This prosopic union is a three tier Christology

1926
02:11:14,479 --> 02:11:18,079
where the union is not at the first level of natures,

1927
02:11:19,199 --> 02:11:22,039
nor at the second level of the hypostasis, but at

1928
02:11:22,119 --> 02:11:25,840
the third level of the prosopon. To the members of

1929
02:11:25,960 --> 02:11:30,640
this church, the idea of perfect God and Man is

1930
02:11:30,960 --> 02:11:35,760
understood only if Christ has both natures and plume of

1931
02:11:35,880 --> 02:11:39,520
both God and Man, and the union has taken place

1932
02:11:40,399 --> 02:11:43,279
only at the level of prosopon.

1933
02:11:44,680 --> 02:11:48,880
Speaker 2: I also want to yeah, like, so when we say

1934
02:11:49,279 --> 02:11:52,720
that there's a hypostatic union, right, this means that there's

1935
02:11:52,720 --> 02:11:56,479
a union in the hypostasis, right, what is united in

1936
02:11:56,560 --> 02:11:58,159
the hypostasis under two natures?

1937
02:11:59,079 --> 02:12:01,720
Speaker 4: So this perspective, what he's.

1938
02:12:01,560 --> 02:12:04,319
Speaker 2: Trying to get at is that I think the way

1939
02:12:04,319 --> 02:12:08,560
I understand is he's criticizing our view by saying that,

1940
02:12:09,000 --> 02:12:11,479
you know, you say Christ is fully human, but then

1941
02:12:11,560 --> 02:12:14,279
you say Christ does not have his own hypostasis, right,

1942
02:12:14,359 --> 02:12:20,319
So being fully human means having your own separate hypostasis,

1943
02:12:20,399 --> 02:12:23,520
and this kind of showcases that. First of all, it

1944
02:12:23,680 --> 02:12:26,760
means that there's no distinction proper between nature and person

1945
02:12:27,600 --> 02:12:31,279
because to be a human need to have human nature

1946
02:12:31,439 --> 02:12:34,600
means in this scheme, to be a human person. Right,

1947
02:12:34,680 --> 02:12:37,239
this is what you kind of get. And like in

1948
02:12:37,319 --> 02:12:39,920
this scheme the one person is kind of just again

1949
02:12:40,000 --> 02:12:43,359
a union of the two prosopa, and you have the hypostasis.

1950
02:12:43,439 --> 02:12:46,960
Speaker 4: The hypostasis is just a particularization of that nature. Right.

1951
02:12:47,000 --> 02:12:50,159
Speaker 2: So that's the kind of that's what the three you know,

1952
02:12:50,279 --> 02:12:54,039
that's what the threefold structure of this cern cristalgia. So

1953
02:12:54,239 --> 02:12:57,520
you have the nature, which is this abstract universal common reality,

1954
02:12:57,720 --> 02:13:00,920
so and so forth. Then you have the particular instantiation, right,

1955
02:13:01,000 --> 02:13:04,199
particular nature, and then you have the person, right, that

1956
02:13:04,319 --> 02:13:05,119
is attached.

1957
02:13:04,760 --> 02:13:06,000
Speaker 4: To it, and then the level of person.

1958
02:13:06,039 --> 02:13:09,159
Speaker 2: There is this union because there's the common will of

1959
02:13:10,840 --> 02:13:13,640
the man Jesus and the Word of God. And this

1960
02:13:13,760 --> 02:13:18,159
common will is the Word of God, you know, indwelling within.

1961
02:13:18,960 --> 02:13:22,520
So again, like if you look at the terminology of

1962
02:13:22,560 --> 02:13:27,800
the early historians, this becomes very clear, and they use scripture,

1963
02:13:27,920 --> 02:13:31,000
they use the biblical language of you know, indwelling, right,

1964
02:13:31,279 --> 02:13:34,159
that the Word dwells within the human body like he

1965
02:13:34,279 --> 02:13:37,560
dwells like God dwelt in the tabernacle. And of course

1966
02:13:37,640 --> 02:13:40,720
this is scriptural, right, But the meaning of the scriptural

1967
02:13:41,359 --> 02:13:44,239
understanding is just the distinction of the two natures. In fact,

1968
02:13:44,640 --> 02:13:46,479
in the skull of the incarnation. That's what saying curl

1969
02:13:46,560 --> 02:13:48,840
for Alexandrosiys. That's to say that the two natures are

1970
02:13:48,880 --> 02:13:52,279
distinct after the indwelling, which is kind of curious but.

1971
02:13:53,920 --> 02:13:56,119
Speaker 4: Curiously positive for the sidey, of course.

1972
02:13:56,199 --> 02:13:59,079
Speaker 2: But what I'm trying to get at is again with

1973
02:13:59,159 --> 02:14:03,319
the structure. It's important to understand that for the Nestorian side,

1974
02:14:04,159 --> 02:14:07,039
price being fully manned means he must have had his

1975
02:14:07,199 --> 02:14:10,800
own human hype stations or even his human personhood. So

1976
02:14:11,960 --> 02:14:15,119
when the Nestorian says that CHRISTI is a composite hype stasis,

1977
02:14:15,199 --> 02:14:18,359
and when the Orthodox says Christ composite type stasis, and

1978
02:14:18,439 --> 02:14:21,399
when the Monopasas says this says the same, there are

1979
02:14:21,439 --> 02:14:25,319
three different meanings, three radically different meanings from the Orthodox

1980
02:14:25,359 --> 02:14:26,880
perspective's union of the two natures.

1981
02:14:27,000 --> 02:14:29,880
Speaker 4: For a Nestorian perspective, it's a prosofect union. Right.

1982
02:14:30,039 --> 02:14:33,720
Speaker 2: There is a composition of two hypostasis that remain. For

1983
02:14:33,840 --> 02:14:37,199
the monopseide side, it's a composition of two hype statis.

1984
02:14:37,239 --> 02:14:40,600
But one of these hype stasis is an Aristotelian accidents,

1985
02:14:40,640 --> 02:14:43,000
so to speak, it's an accident. It's not really a substance.

1986
02:14:43,039 --> 02:14:45,560
It's more like an accident. So that's kind of the

1987
02:14:45,680 --> 02:14:52,640
three different key different differences in understanding composite hypostasis. And

1988
02:14:52,720 --> 02:14:54,560
this is why it's important to kind of understand, Okay,

1989
02:14:54,840 --> 02:14:57,199
what do we mean by these terms that we use.

1990
02:14:58,960 --> 02:15:02,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not gonna be the last paragraph in its entirety,

1991
02:15:02,079 --> 02:15:04,880
but it's basically, as for the marriology, it refuses to

1992
02:15:04,920 --> 02:15:09,079
call Mary theotokus. Unlike the Orthodox Church. A historian is

1993
02:15:09,159 --> 02:15:18,640
an Orthodox without theotokus, Okay, correct. A Nestorian is proclaiming

1994
02:15:20,159 --> 02:15:24,560
the Virgin Mary without the appellation theotokos in its exclusivity,

1995
02:15:24,840 --> 02:15:28,720
but that doesn't make them Orthodox. And so it's very

1996
02:15:28,840 --> 02:15:35,920
clear that the Metropolitan, who is quite well understanding in

1997
02:15:36,279 --> 02:15:39,439
the three tier ontology to make the distinctions that he does,

1998
02:15:39,920 --> 02:15:45,359
to basically lay out for you that these are irreconcilable christologies.

1999
02:15:46,000 --> 02:15:49,399
We are not talking about the same thing. When we

2000
02:15:49,640 --> 02:15:52,680
say that Christ is one person, we are not saying

2001
02:15:52,760 --> 02:15:55,760
the same thing. We are not professing the same faith.

2002
02:15:57,920 --> 02:16:03,079
And will get to the agreement between Rome in a

2003
02:16:03,159 --> 02:16:10,479
moment Theotokus versus Cristo tocus. So Theodora of Mopsuestia allowed

2004
02:16:10,520 --> 02:16:16,199
the use of theotokos, but only in combination with Anthropotochus,

2005
02:16:17,079 --> 02:16:21,119
and the two terms expressed different yet complementary perspectives of

2006
02:16:21,279 --> 02:16:26,359
the incarnation. So Nestorius claimed to have reconciled proponents of

2007
02:16:26,359 --> 02:16:31,319
both alternative usages by proposing Christo tokos instead has recently

2008
02:16:31,399 --> 02:16:34,799
been doubted, But that Nestorius attempted in its theology to

2009
02:16:34,879 --> 02:16:37,799
bridge the divide in that one term is essentially what

2010
02:16:37,920 --> 02:16:42,639
Theodora of Mopsuestia tried to achieve by using those two

2011
02:16:42,799 --> 02:16:48,319
terms side by side. And so Nistorius has an open

2012
02:16:48,440 --> 02:16:53,840
hostility towards the usage of theotokos in its own.

2013
02:16:53,959 --> 02:17:03,639
Speaker 4: Right, Ja, Yeah, I think I think I can hear

2014
02:17:03,680 --> 02:17:04,239
my own sound.

2015
02:17:04,600 --> 02:17:08,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, okay, all right.

2016
02:17:09,520 --> 02:17:12,879
Speaker 3: And so basically what's happening here is is you have

2017
02:17:14,719 --> 02:17:22,479
Nestorious and Theater representing Theodore of Mopsuestia's theology in just

2018
02:17:22,559 --> 02:17:25,639
a little bit more kind of cleaned up expressions.

2019
02:17:28,479 --> 02:17:30,040
Speaker 4: Can you can you go back? Can you go back?

2020
02:17:30,079 --> 02:17:30,479
One start?

2021
02:17:30,559 --> 02:17:32,200
Speaker 2: I just want to make some comments. This is a

2022
02:17:32,280 --> 02:17:36,920
very important to point out because so Theotokos. Again, as

2023
02:17:36,959 --> 02:17:41,280
I said earlier in the stream, it's not a reference

2024
02:17:41,639 --> 02:17:45,040
merely too, It's not just a statement that we make

2025
02:17:45,159 --> 02:17:50,399
to make the virgin maybe look, you know too pretty

2026
02:17:50,479 --> 02:17:53,079
upward language of her or anything like that. You can

2027
02:17:53,120 --> 02:17:55,559
see with Theodore of mop Sevestia and the stories is

2028
02:17:55,600 --> 02:17:58,120
pretty much he's basically saying what Theodore of Mops is

2029
02:17:58,120 --> 02:18:00,360
saying in a different term. Right again, this story is

2030
02:18:00,440 --> 02:18:04,280
the term Christ indicates the two natures, right, certain terms

2031
02:18:04,319 --> 02:18:07,879
like Jesus in case only the humanity, word of God indicates.

2032
02:18:07,559 --> 02:18:10,719
Speaker 4: Only the divinity, but Christ indicates both of them.

2033
02:18:10,799 --> 02:18:12,959
Speaker 2: So that's why he used the term chrystal tocos as

2034
02:18:13,000 --> 02:18:15,959
the as the best way to you know, that's that's

2035
02:18:16,000 --> 02:18:19,079
the firstest he's willing to go. So is it acceptable

2036
02:18:19,440 --> 02:18:22,600
to say that the virgin Mary is Teotokus in the

2037
02:18:22,639 --> 02:18:29,319
same way she is Anthropotocus? Now, despite desmight make some

2038
02:18:29,399 --> 02:18:32,040
people say, well Christ is God and man, so yeah,

2039
02:18:32,200 --> 02:18:32,479
why not?

2040
02:18:32,879 --> 02:18:36,559
Speaker 4: But again, what are you the mother of?

2041
02:18:36,920 --> 02:18:38,719
Speaker 2: Is the kind of questions asked? You're a mother of

2042
02:18:38,799 --> 02:18:42,239
a person, and what person is Christ? Christ is not

2043
02:18:42,760 --> 02:18:46,559
a human person like in historianism. That's why we reject

2044
02:18:46,600 --> 02:18:49,000
the term anthropotochos. It is not to reject the Christ

2045
02:18:49,040 --> 02:18:52,319
as human. Christ is human. What we are stating is

2046
02:18:52,360 --> 02:18:55,159
that Christ is a divine hypostasis.

2047
02:18:55,280 --> 02:18:56,520
Speaker 4: He's the divine word of God.

2048
02:18:56,879 --> 02:19:00,639
Speaker 2: Right, He's the pre existent Word of God who became

2049
02:19:00,840 --> 02:19:05,120
incarnate within the Virgin Mana. That's why the Virginia is theotokos.

2050
02:19:05,479 --> 02:19:08,479
That's why we reject crystal talkos. And again, chrystal tacos,

2051
02:19:08,680 --> 02:19:11,799
I mean biblically, the Virgin Mary is referred to as

2052
02:19:11,840 --> 02:19:14,840
the mother of Christ. But it's not a formula on

2053
02:19:14,959 --> 02:19:19,639
its own, mainly because again there are many Christs in scripture. Right,

2054
02:19:19,799 --> 02:19:22,200
What do you actually mean by crystal toalcos? What makes

2055
02:19:22,399 --> 02:19:26,200
Christ as a special? What makes Christ special in this sense?

2056
02:19:26,360 --> 02:19:29,120
There's nothing indicating that with crystal tokos. It's at best

2057
02:19:29,399 --> 02:19:32,959
doesn't really indicate anything special. At worst, it serves to

2058
02:19:33,399 --> 02:19:38,879
it serves a historian christology, right. But theotokos, that's a

2059
02:19:39,040 --> 02:19:42,559
confession that Christ is God and also a divine person.

2060
02:19:42,639 --> 02:19:46,559
He's the divine logos, right, and so there's a specific

2061
02:19:47,079 --> 02:19:49,440
aspect in Christ that we can speak of him again

2062
02:19:49,559 --> 02:19:53,840
as divine person. He's fully human, right, but he is

2063
02:19:53,879 --> 02:19:57,200
a divine person, and as Saint Maximums the Confessor says, right,

2064
02:19:57,319 --> 02:20:00,680
Christ is divine by hypostasis, but human by nature. So

2065
02:20:00,840 --> 02:20:03,120
it's a confession of the full reality of the human

2066
02:20:03,200 --> 02:20:06,319
nature of Christ. But being fully human does not mean

2067
02:20:06,479 --> 02:20:09,559
being a human person. And in fact, this proposition, this

2068
02:20:09,719 --> 02:20:12,559
idea that being fully human means being a human person

2069
02:20:12,639 --> 02:20:16,239
as well, is the proposition of Apollinarius that was denied

2070
02:20:16,239 --> 02:20:19,200
by Saint Atonatius, Saint Grigord's theologian, Saint Grigors Nizza.

2071
02:20:20,040 --> 02:20:23,399
Speaker 4: Right, so you can trace it back there.

2072
02:20:23,520 --> 02:20:26,559
Speaker 2: This is why the term crystal tocos and anthropotoccos, this

2073
02:20:26,719 --> 02:20:29,879
is why it is a problem. Right, It's not accepted.

2074
02:20:30,159 --> 02:20:33,280
It's why it's important to understand this. Right, the person

2075
02:20:33,360 --> 02:20:36,760
that the virgin may gave birth to is the Word

2076
02:20:36,840 --> 02:20:40,840
of God, is God the divine hypostasis. Right, So this

2077
02:20:41,000 --> 02:20:43,479
is how we must understand the divine hype states on

2078
02:20:43,479 --> 02:20:45,559
the one hand, and the compost hype station on the Again,

2079
02:20:45,600 --> 02:20:48,000
the composition of the two natures. But the divine hype

2080
02:20:48,040 --> 02:20:51,040
states is a reference to the eternally begodden word of God.

2081
02:20:52,799 --> 02:20:56,799
Speaker 3: And also I think we should mention where people might say, well,

2082
02:20:57,079 --> 02:21:01,040
theotokos and anthropotocus are referring to the divine in human

2083
02:21:01,159 --> 02:21:05,559
natures and just circles back to your point, Well, what

2084
02:21:05,879 --> 02:21:10,040
does the Virgin Mary give birth to? Or who does

2085
02:21:10,200 --> 02:21:12,399
the Virginmaria give birth to? She doesn't give birth to natures,

2086
02:21:12,760 --> 02:21:14,440
she gives birth to a person.

2087
02:21:14,639 --> 02:21:18,840
Speaker 2: And Saint Carole off Alexandra actually like he makes this argument, right,

2088
02:21:19,079 --> 02:21:23,479
he kind of he says, you know, no one separate

2089
02:21:23,639 --> 02:21:26,600
like if so, for example, the Virgin Mary, if you

2090
02:21:26,639 --> 02:21:29,239
want to be super technical, because we hold to a

2091
02:21:29,399 --> 02:21:32,680
creationist belief in the soul. Right, the human body is

2092
02:21:32,799 --> 02:21:35,440
generated from the parents, but the soul is created from God.

2093
02:21:36,079 --> 02:21:37,959
Speaker 4: Right, So the Virgin Mary.

2094
02:21:37,840 --> 02:21:40,440
Speaker 2: If you want to speak technically, right, it's only a

2095
02:21:40,559 --> 02:21:44,360
part of humanity that she generates Christ. But that doesn't

2096
02:21:44,399 --> 02:21:48,600
stop us from saying that she generates, you know, the

2097
02:21:48,719 --> 02:21:51,479
humanity of Christ, and she gives birth to Christ. Right,

2098
02:21:51,680 --> 02:21:55,200
it means generating in the sense of of course human body, right,

2099
02:21:55,319 --> 02:22:00,399
not like generation et cetera, et cetera. But the you know,

2100
02:22:00,520 --> 02:22:02,840
we for example, when we speak of a human being dying,

2101
02:22:03,879 --> 02:22:05,719
the death is the separation of the soul body, right,

2102
02:22:05,760 --> 02:22:08,239
the body dies, but we still say the whole of

2103
02:22:08,399 --> 02:22:13,280
man died right, so no one uses language in the

2104
02:22:13,360 --> 02:22:16,879
way of separating the nature is when we're supposed to

2105
02:22:16,920 --> 02:22:17,959
refer to the one person.

2106
02:22:18,120 --> 02:22:21,360
Speaker 4: Right. This is the point that Saint Kurla Alexandria's is trying.

2107
02:22:21,159 --> 02:22:23,479
Speaker 2: To make right, and this is why he considers this

2108
02:22:23,600 --> 02:22:26,360
to be a very important, very crucial point. So Saint

2109
02:22:26,399 --> 02:22:30,840
Carol is emphasizing that again the term tyotokis refers to

2110
02:22:30,920 --> 02:22:36,479
the person that is born right, and this reference is

2111
02:22:36,559 --> 02:22:40,360
made due to a specific part mean mainly the human

2112
02:22:40,399 --> 02:22:46,000
body that Christ hyposthetically assumed. Hyposthetic union again means that Christ,

2113
02:22:46,600 --> 02:22:50,719
that the Word of God, in his divine personhood, assumed

2114
02:22:50,879 --> 02:22:56,719
a full human nature to himself, right, And and it's

2115
02:22:57,280 --> 02:23:01,440
ontologically united to himself, right, It's it's taken up on himself.

2116
02:23:01,479 --> 02:23:03,840
It's not just an external kind of a union. He

2117
02:23:04,000 --> 02:23:09,479
really did ontologically become man, even in its limitations, right

2118
02:23:09,879 --> 02:23:14,799
though these limitations are not absolute, because Christ is still

2119
02:23:14,840 --> 02:23:19,360
God right, but rather he genuinely experienced these kinds of

2120
02:23:19,920 --> 02:23:24,120
genuine human experience, of course without sin, and this experience

2121
02:23:24,600 --> 02:23:28,440
was again revealed in the transfiguration right fully, and this

2122
02:23:28,600 --> 02:23:30,040
is kind of what we are being called to.

2123
02:23:30,159 --> 02:23:30,360
Speaker 4: So there.

2124
02:23:30,479 --> 02:23:35,040
Speaker 2: There's this kind of circling back to so theology at

2125
02:23:35,079 --> 02:23:37,120
play here as well. But it's very again, it's very important.

2126
02:23:37,239 --> 02:23:39,239
Why do we use the term theotokos. It's not just

2127
02:23:40,479 --> 02:23:43,239
to confess that Christ is God, it's to confess that

2128
02:23:43,360 --> 02:23:44,600
Christ is a divine person.

2129
02:23:45,079 --> 02:23:46,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

2130
02:23:47,600 --> 02:23:51,319
Speaker 3: So we're almost wrapping up I guess part one this

2131
02:23:51,440 --> 02:23:54,479
one here. I don't care about the entirety of this text.

2132
02:23:54,920 --> 02:23:57,120
I give the link. You guys can look it up.

2133
02:23:57,360 --> 02:24:03,879
This is basically this so called common Christological Declaration between

2134
02:24:04,360 --> 02:24:07,399
Rome and the Assyrian Church of the East that took

2135
02:24:07,520 --> 02:24:11,520
place in nineteen ninety four. That a lot of Roman

2136
02:24:11,639 --> 02:24:16,840
Catholics will say that while you see, look, it was

2137
02:24:17,040 --> 02:24:22,600
all just a big misunderstanding. We're all saying the same thing.

2138
02:24:22,959 --> 02:24:27,520
Can't we all just get along? This is the unique

2139
02:24:27,559 --> 02:24:30,239
faith that we profess in the mystery of Christ. The

2140
02:24:30,399 --> 02:24:34,440
controversies of the past led to anathemas bearing on persons

2141
02:24:34,760 --> 02:24:39,520
and on sort in formulas. The Lord's Spirit permits us

2142
02:24:39,559 --> 02:24:42,520
to understand better today that the division brought about in

2143
02:24:42,639 --> 02:24:47,000
this way we're due in large part to misunderstandings. So

2144
02:24:47,239 --> 02:24:50,719
that's just a bunch of nonsense. We clearly see there

2145
02:24:50,799 --> 02:25:00,120
is no misunderstanding. But in this common Christological declaration, it

2146
02:25:00,200 --> 02:25:04,280
is said that both the Rome and the Church of

2147
02:25:04,319 --> 02:25:10,840
the East the Assyrians profess that there is one person

2148
02:25:11,360 --> 02:25:16,840
that is Christ. But you read this declaration and you

2149
02:25:16,920 --> 02:25:22,639
ask yourself the question, what is meant by one person?

2150
02:25:24,600 --> 02:25:29,200
And nowhere will you see this defined. Nowhere will you

2151
02:25:29,399 --> 02:25:36,000
see this understanding explicated by either party. This is quite

2152
02:25:36,159 --> 02:25:46,680
literally word concept fallacy, because we see that we do

2153
02:25:46,879 --> 02:25:48,799
not profess the same faith. And when I say we,

2154
02:25:49,399 --> 02:25:54,840
in this particular case, Rome would profess a one hippostatic,

2155
02:25:55,040 --> 02:26:01,760
divine only appolition for Christ. And this is not reconcilable

2156
02:26:02,079 --> 02:26:06,559
with a three tier ontology of the Church of the East,

2157
02:26:06,959 --> 02:26:13,159
and even the that hierarchy. The metropolitan for the Church

2158
02:26:13,239 --> 02:26:15,479
of the East, he is telling you, look, we don't

2159
02:26:15,520 --> 02:26:19,319
believe the same thing. The Matagantha is telling you, look,

2160
02:26:19,920 --> 02:26:22,879
we don't believe the same thing. So this is a

2161
02:26:22,959 --> 02:26:27,280
false union. This is a false union through and through.

2162
02:26:27,959 --> 02:26:31,280
And you cannot look at these declarations and then start

2163
02:26:31,319 --> 02:26:38,879
speaking about oh, Apostolic Christianity. No, it's not Apostolic Christianity.

2164
02:26:38,959 --> 02:26:44,120
You have churches that have deviated that they're not professing

2165
02:26:44,200 --> 02:26:44,879
the faith.

2166
02:26:45,120 --> 02:26:45,200
Speaker 2: And.

2167
02:26:47,000 --> 02:26:52,719
Speaker 3: Like it or not, they're not apostolic. So was it

2168
02:26:52,879 --> 02:26:57,959
all just a big misunderstanding? Well, if you're gonna say

2169
02:26:57,959 --> 02:27:01,639
that it was all just a big misunderstand did the

2170
02:27:01,719 --> 02:27:05,559
Bishop of Rome, Saint Celestine, and in the Bishop of Alexandria,

2171
02:27:05,639 --> 02:27:13,280
Saint Cyril, both get it wrong? What Saint Celestine wrote

2172
02:27:14,319 --> 02:27:20,760
to Nestorius, We have approved and approved the faith of

2173
02:27:20,840 --> 02:27:25,360
the Bishop of the Church of Alexandria, and you, Nestorius,

2174
02:27:25,760 --> 02:27:30,559
who have been amonished by him, must again share our

2175
02:27:30,680 --> 02:27:34,520
beliefs if you wish to share our fellowship. If you

2176
02:27:34,680 --> 02:27:39,680
are to demonstrate agreement with this brother, condemning everything you

2177
02:27:39,799 --> 02:27:43,120
have held here, there too, we require you to preach

2178
02:27:43,239 --> 02:27:46,840
at once what you see him to preach. Therefore, be

2179
02:27:47,040 --> 02:27:51,760
fully aware of this our sentence, unless you preach about Christ,

2180
02:27:51,959 --> 02:27:55,959
our God, that which is held by both the Roman

2181
02:27:56,680 --> 02:28:02,079
and Alexandrian and the Universal Catholic Church, and what was

2182
02:28:02,200 --> 02:28:05,440
also most firmly held by the Holy Church of the

2183
02:28:05,479 --> 02:28:10,040
City of Constantinople, until you, and by a public and

2184
02:28:10,120 --> 02:28:14,399
written profession, condemn the perfidious novelty that tries to divide

2185
02:28:14,799 --> 02:28:18,879
what venerable scripture unites by the tenth day counting from

2186
02:28:18,920 --> 02:28:21,200
the first day of this indictment becoming known to you.

2187
02:28:22,120 --> 02:28:24,319
You are to be aware that you are expelled from

2188
02:28:24,360 --> 02:28:30,639
the communion of the Universal Catholic Church. And then you

2189
02:28:30,840 --> 02:28:35,680
have the Ecumenical Council, guided by Holy Spirit, did it

2190
02:28:35,799 --> 02:28:40,280
get it wrong? The Holy Council assembled at Ephesus, by

2191
02:28:40,360 --> 02:28:42,760
the grace of God, according to the decree of our

2192
02:28:42,840 --> 02:28:48,000
most pious and Christ loving Emperors to Nestorius, the New Judas,

2193
02:28:48,920 --> 02:28:53,200
be informed that because of your impious preaching and violation

2194
02:28:53,319 --> 02:28:56,399
of the canons, you have been deposed by the Holy

2195
02:28:56,559 --> 02:28:59,559
Council in accordance with the laws of the Church, on

2196
02:28:59,639 --> 02:29:02,280
the twenty second of the present month of June, and

2197
02:29:02,399 --> 02:29:08,799
that you are stripped of every ecclesiastical rank. So no,

2198
02:29:09,120 --> 02:29:13,079
the Ecumenical Council didn't get it wrong. Saint Cyril didn't

2199
02:29:13,120 --> 02:29:18,000
get it wrong. Saint Celestine didn't get it wrong. They

2200
02:29:18,079 --> 02:29:26,120
got it right. Nestorius taught Nestorianism. The Church of the

2201
02:29:26,280 --> 02:29:33,799
East is nestorian, It teaches Nestorianism. It is not an

2202
02:29:33,840 --> 02:29:40,200
Apostolic church. So anybody who promotes the Church of the

2203
02:29:40,360 --> 02:29:49,440
East as apostolic is promoting garbage, is promoting heresy. We

2204
02:29:49,600 --> 02:29:52,760
are not in communion with that church. We will never

2205
02:29:52,879 --> 02:29:56,239
be in communion with that church insofar as it holds

2206
02:29:56,319 --> 02:30:00,200
to what it does as professed by the madiganthan Yuah

2207
02:30:02,079 --> 02:30:08,319
and likewise the Orientals. Anybody who holds that the Oriental

2208
02:30:08,440 --> 02:30:16,360
churches ow are Apostolic is preaching garbage. They are not apostolic,

2209
02:30:16,520 --> 02:30:19,680
and we will not hold into a union with them,

2210
02:30:19,920 --> 02:30:25,799
because we are clear in understanding the issues that divide us.

2211
02:30:26,479 --> 02:30:32,239
It is not just a matter of incorrect language or misunderstandings.

2212
02:30:32,479 --> 02:30:36,680
The misunderstandings are by idiots who don't understand the metaphysics,

2213
02:30:37,319 --> 02:30:41,239
thereby people who are illiterate and don't actually understand what

2214
02:30:41,319 --> 02:30:45,159
the discussion is about. If you take the time to learn,

2215
02:30:45,959 --> 02:30:49,879
if you take the time to study your faith seriously,

2216
02:30:51,000 --> 02:30:54,799
then you will see that the only apostolic church is

2217
02:30:54,879 --> 02:30:59,559
the Orthodox Church, and we will not compromise. We stand

2218
02:31:00,040 --> 02:31:03,520
firm in the faith, and we preach the faith. We

2219
02:31:03,799 --> 02:31:15,760
uphold what the councils have taught. Nomenclature alone is insufficient, Okay.

2220
02:31:16,280 --> 02:31:22,399
You cannot just simply do keyword searches and say, oh,

2221
02:31:22,639 --> 02:31:27,639
look at what this person said. What is the theology

2222
02:31:27,760 --> 02:31:33,399
behind those words? What is the underlying metaphysical paradigm? Do

2223
02:31:33,559 --> 02:31:40,479
you actually understand what these historic people taught? Do you

2224
02:31:40,680 --> 02:31:45,840
understand what the ecumenical councils taught? Do you accept that

2225
02:31:45,959 --> 02:31:50,920
the Ecumenical councils were guided by the Holy Spirit? How

2226
02:31:51,639 --> 02:31:55,719
are you certain that you're not committing word concept fallacies

2227
02:31:56,120 --> 02:32:01,600
or equivocating on certain words? Okay? Are you willing to

2228
02:32:01,799 --> 02:32:07,040
recognize that these issues are not just word games or

2229
02:32:07,120 --> 02:32:09,280
that you can just say that they're because of certain

2230
02:32:09,319 --> 02:32:14,200
political circumstances. Are you willing to recognize that there are

2231
02:32:14,600 --> 02:32:24,799
fundamentally irreconcilable differences theologically and metaphysically. Okay? Can you recognize

2232
02:32:25,559 --> 02:32:30,520
when being able to profess a particular doctrine actually precludes

2233
02:32:31,280 --> 02:32:34,879
is precluded due to your underlying theology and metaphysics, despite

2234
02:32:34,920 --> 02:32:38,040
that you want to profess that doctrine. By this, I

2235
02:32:38,200 --> 02:32:43,360
mean you'll say, no, we don't profess Nestorianism, for example

2236
02:32:44,239 --> 02:32:46,479
in the Church of the East. Well, no, look at

2237
02:32:46,520 --> 02:32:51,520
your metaphysics. Understand your metaphysics and understand how the logical

2238
02:32:51,799 --> 02:32:58,440
entailment of what your system is set up to hold

2239
02:32:58,520 --> 02:33:02,280
to it is actually it precludes for you concluding what

2240
02:33:02,440 --> 02:33:07,760
you want to conclude, Okay, have you developed a paradigm

2241
02:33:08,200 --> 02:33:14,239
that is consistent, that has meaningful explanatory power, or are

2242
02:33:14,280 --> 02:33:18,360
you just putting random quote minds in together and taking

2243
02:33:18,479 --> 02:33:22,959
ideas out of context. So all of these questions, this

2244
02:33:23,159 --> 02:33:25,239
is the whole point of why we want to do

2245
02:33:25,719 --> 02:33:29,879
this extended series of streams, is to really flesh out

2246
02:33:30,159 --> 02:33:33,239
the Orthodox positions, the Oriental and the Church of the

2247
02:33:33,280 --> 02:33:37,159
East positions and demonstrate to you that we are not

2248
02:33:37,399 --> 02:33:41,120
teaching the same thing, We are not compatible with each other,

2249
02:33:41,799 --> 02:33:44,479
and if we're not teaching the same thing, then not

2250
02:33:44,760 --> 02:33:49,239
everyone can be apostolic. It's not just a mechanical thing.

2251
02:33:49,319 --> 02:33:52,399
Like Jay said at the beginning. To be apostolic, you

2252
02:33:52,680 --> 02:33:56,799
have to uphold the correct faith, and this is not

2253
02:33:57,159 --> 02:34:04,959
about having just some kind of sophisticated system that is irrelevant.

2254
02:34:05,600 --> 02:34:10,360
Those people who can understand these things have an obligation

2255
02:34:10,559 --> 02:34:13,479
to understand them and to explain it to other people

2256
02:34:13,559 --> 02:34:16,920
to understand that they can better understand it. You cannot

2257
02:34:17,040 --> 02:34:22,920
just relegate these as unnecessary details. When you look at

2258
02:34:22,959 --> 02:34:29,639
the ecumenical councils, they went to great detail to explain

2259
02:34:30,040 --> 02:34:32,000
what's happening theologically