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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 6: host journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 7: Good Evening. Violent crimes in America have become an epidemic
Speaker 7: within the past decade or so, with more juvenile offenders
Speaker 7: taking to the streets. Homicide and murder rates have skyrocketed
Speaker 7: as science does their best to study the minds of
Speaker 7: America's most horrific killers. Amanda Setan would like to invite
Speaker 7: you to delve into the world of crime and forensics
Speaker 7: as she provides an analysis of those violent crimes committed
Speaker 7: by juvenile offenders, mothers, husbands, roommates, ex football players, and
Speaker 7: one of the most famous sadistic serial killers of the
Speaker 7: nineteen seventies. The book explores the substantial problem the United
Speaker 7: States of America's facing with violent crimes not just committed
Speaker 7: by adults, but juveniles offenders as well. The book that
Speaker 7: we're profiled in this evening is Violent Crimes in America
Speaker 7: and the forensic disciplines used to solve them with my
Speaker 7: special guest, journalist and author Amanda Setan. Welcome to the
Speaker 7: program and thank you for agreen to this interview. Amanda Setan,
Speaker 7: thank you for inviting me. Thank you very much much.
Speaker 7: A very provocative book, and let's get right to that
Speaker 7: without getting too much away. Maybe you can maybe it's
Speaker 7: probably because of your background, but I don't want to
Speaker 7: put words in your mouth. Tell us exactly why what
Speaker 7: compelled you to write this book at this time? What
Speaker 7: brought you to the writing of Violent Crimes in America.
Speaker 2: When I first enrolled into my bachelor's degree, I had
Speaker 2: a strong interest in homeland security, and throughout my studies
Speaker 2: I delved a little bit into the area of forensics
Speaker 2: that they had used in order to track down terrorists
Speaker 2: and or solve the terrorist crimes that have taken place
Speaker 2: not just in America but across the world. And with
Speaker 2: delving into the world of forensics, it became rather interesting
Speaker 2: with all the unsolved murders and cases that have been
Speaker 2: going on, more specifically in the past decade, or so,
Speaker 2: and so I decided that it would be interesting to
Speaker 2: obtain the master's in forensics. And with starting the masters
Speaker 2: in Forensics, I realized that forensics is a very interesting
Speaker 2: category of science that is very young and a lot
Speaker 2: of it is very unknown. Misconceptions often occur, and so
Speaker 2: I felt that by writing a book, I would be
Speaker 2: able to portray some of those misconceptions in the reality
Speaker 2: behind forensics to make it easier for people to understand.
Speaker 7: Oh great, Okay, well that's a great segue. So let's
Speaker 7: get into exactly what forensic what you mean by when,
Speaker 7: what's the definition of in your mind, what forensic disciplines are,
Speaker 7: and then tell us about just go through a couple
Speaker 7: of the myths that people really do believe that about
Speaker 7: forensics itself.
Speaker 2: Well, I believe that forensic discipline is the application of
Speaker 2: science and opinion put together in order to create the
Speaker 2: outcome of various different testing and the applications that they
Speaker 2: would use in court. Some of the common misconceptions that
Speaker 2: are used are the CSI effect, where victims and family
Speaker 2: members often believe that the police can solve a crime
Speaker 2: in an hour, where realistically it can take weeks, weeks, months,
Speaker 2: and years and sometimes I never solved it at all.
Speaker 2: And the other one is the biggest one that I had,
Speaker 2: was that they're not able to get DNA out of
Speaker 2: fire victims or victims that have been submerged in water.
Speaker 2: So I felt that it was important to bring to
Speaker 2: the forefront that they are able to extract DNA from
Speaker 2: those types of victims.
Speaker 7: Now, is there some hindrance? Is there some issue? I mean,
Speaker 7: I have heard about that water would destroy DNA or
Speaker 7: because of the composition. So tell us really what the
Speaker 7: truth is regarding DNA and being submerged or in water
Speaker 7: for a length of time.
Speaker 2: Well, the problem with the victim being submerged in water
Speaker 2: is you have the fear of fish and other sea
Speaker 2: creatures eating away the soft tissue that would be needed
Speaker 2: in order to abstract that DNA. But they have found
Speaker 2: with finding victims and water that they are able to
Speaker 2: abstract it out of the bones themselves instead of needing
Speaker 2: the typical soft tissue that one would typically find.
Speaker 7: I see, And what about what was the why did
Speaker 7: people believe I guess the serial killer might there might
Speaker 7: be a myth among serial killers as well that they
Speaker 7: just burned the body. But what I had read was
Speaker 7: that it's too low a temperature to destroy the body.
Speaker 7: So again just what you said, as long as there's bones,
Speaker 7: then there's possibility of DNA regardless of fire.
Speaker 2: Exactly they had There was a case out in California
Speaker 2: of what they believe was caused by a group of
Speaker 2: gang members. But they had cut the foot off of
Speaker 2: a teenager with a machete and they had burnt it
Speaker 2: in the backyard, and when police had located the flood
Speaker 2: they had, they were actually able to extract DNA from
Speaker 2: the charm remains, which ultimately led to them being able
Speaker 2: to identify the teenager.
Speaker 7: Now, of course everyone's heard of DNA, and DNA is
Speaker 7: a godsend to police and prosecutors and officials in law
Speaker 7: and security in every country. But what are some of
Speaker 7: the other some of the other things that are involved
Speaker 7: in forensics, some of the other disciplines themselves, not disciplines,
Speaker 7: but some of the other we'll say skills that are
Speaker 7: involved in forensics.
Speaker 2: Well, with forensics being such a wide area of science,
Speaker 2: it really comes down to these special skills that the
Speaker 2: scientists and experts hold themselves, such as you have a pathologist,
Speaker 2: you have a biologist, you have a psychologist, and they
Speaker 2: are just simply a pathologist, a biologist, and a psychologist
Speaker 2: until it comes down to a crime. Then that's where
Speaker 2: the forensic actually comes into play. That's where they use
Speaker 2: their expertise in order to basically say that the likelihood
Speaker 2: of this happening is great. So a biologist would or
Speaker 2: a botanist would study plants, whereas a psychologist would study
Speaker 2: the mind of the criminal and see the likelihood of
Speaker 2: them actually being able to commit that crime.
Speaker 7: Now do we have issues in terms of again you
Speaker 7: say about the CSI effects, everybody thinks in an hour
Speaker 7: that something gets solved and that inevitably everything will get
Speaker 7: solved because they have these wonder kinds of science and
Speaker 7: these incredible labs. My question is is with the budget constraints,
Speaker 7: is every jurisdiction equipped with the kind of forensic abilities
Speaker 7: basically the budget to be able to conduct forensic testing
Speaker 7: very much not very much like CSI, But is that
Speaker 7: sort of considerate on these kinds of budgets for being
Speaker 7: able to have full forensic testing that's necessary for all
Speaker 7: kinds of crimes that might warrant it.
Speaker 2: Money is definitely an issue, especially when it comes to
Speaker 2: smaller towns such as the small town in Utah with
Speaker 2: the mother who had killed her seven children. The States
Speaker 2: did not have the money nor the technology in order
Speaker 2: to test the DNA and the remains of the children
Speaker 2: found in the garage, so they had to send the
Speaker 2: remains to the federal lab of the FBI in order
Speaker 2: to obtain DNA to try to figure out that caut
Speaker 2: the manner of death, which is a huge problem with
Speaker 2: smaller crime labs, smaller cities, cities that have a lower budget.
Speaker 2: So really that can cause cases to go hold, cases
Speaker 2: to be unsolved, and ultimately criminals walking free because they
Speaker 2: do not have the time, energy, money, and the manpower
Speaker 2: that it takes to put the science behind their crimes
Speaker 2: and solve them.
Speaker 7: So it's so science and forensic testing and laboratories and
Speaker 7: those kinds of budgets are even more than just personnel
Speaker 7: would normally be in equipment exactly. Okay, Now, tell us
Speaker 7: about some of the cases that you decided to write
Speaker 7: about in your book, and tell us I think the
Speaker 7: audience is interested in this most stadistic serial killer of
Speaker 7: the nineteen seventies, who it is and why did you
Speaker 7: write about this particular serial killer. What was it about
Speaker 7: their signature, their characteristic, about their crime itself, their murder itself.
Speaker 7: What was it that you wanted to convey? Why did
Speaker 7: you pick this particular killer.
Speaker 2: Well, America has seen hundreds of sadistic serial killers over
Speaker 2: the past forty fifty years, but I felt that one
Speaker 2: of the most interesting the study would be Ted Bundy.
Speaker 2: And it's not mainly because he was a serial killer.
Speaker 2: It was the manner of which he committed his crimes
Speaker 2: and the excuses and or reasoning behind his crimes that
Speaker 2: he had used and that he was so forthcoming to
Speaker 2: explain during his interviews before his execution. And in researching Bundy,
Speaker 2: it interested me because he had stated that from a
Speaker 2: young age he had been addicted to violent pornographic images
Speaker 2: and he had an issue with his mother rejecting him
Speaker 2: throughout life. He was rejected, he was a failure in school,
Speaker 2: and so he really went back on that pornographic material
Speaker 2: in order to gain some control back in his life,
Speaker 2: which ultimately led to him killing dozens of women across America.
Speaker 7: So this is an issue where has come up in
Speaker 7: because there's been endless conversation about Ted Bundy and how
Speaker 7: forthcoming he actually was and why he was not forthcoming originally,
Speaker 7: and a lot of people know about Ted Bundy. This
Speaker 7: program we've done, Kevin Sullivan examined Ted Bundy. I first
Speaker 7: interviewed Anne Rule, who worked of course at the Crisis
Speaker 7: Hotline next door to next to Ted Bundy. And it's
Speaker 7: great that the revelations that he did have, but I've
Speaker 7: what I as not issue, but some people have issue
Speaker 7: with the drawing too much emphasis from that. Certainly he
Speaker 7: did view violent pornography and certainly a lot of serial
Speaker 7: killers would would say that same sort of thing. But
Speaker 7: at the same time, if you look at Ted Bundy
Speaker 7: and the life that he was dealt, he at a
Speaker 7: time when he was enjoying great success, almost self sabotaged
Speaker 7: himself and considering the things that you know, his mother
Speaker 7: telling me has adopted all these things and finding out
Speaker 7: the truth, does it really still explain Ted Bundy? And
Speaker 7: sorry for getting away from you with Ted Bundy, But
Speaker 7: what did you really what could you really conclude from
Speaker 7: Ten Bundy looking at the research that you did for
Speaker 7: this book, well, the research.
Speaker 2: Briand Ted Bundy, obviously there was a lot of that.
Speaker 2: A lot of people have their basic opinions on him,
Speaker 2: including experts. The bottom line is we do not know
Speaker 2: for sure whether or not the violent pornographic material and
Speaker 2: or videos were truly the cause of his violent crimes,
Speaker 2: which could also be said about the drug and alcohol
Speaker 2: addition that he claimed that he had. But we can
Speaker 2: say that it definitely did have a play in his
Speaker 2: behavior and it may very well have been the cause
Speaker 2: of him committing his first crime. But after committing that
Speaker 2: first crime, he could very well have just gained control
Speaker 2: back into himself and he needed to keep feeding into
Speaker 2: that in order to keep feeling like he's in control
Speaker 2: since a good portion of his life he had not been.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, there's always the argument though, that people
Speaker 7: watch violent movies and aren't violent, or if they would
Speaker 7: be hard pressed to blame their violent behavior, they're murderous
Speaker 7: behavior on watching murderous movies, because otherwise we have a
Speaker 7: I mean, it would be never mind epidemic all the
Speaker 7: people that are playing violent video games and watching violent movies.
Speaker 7: I mean, it's in a sort of American pastime. There's
Speaker 7: almost now the murder comedy, you know, a lightheighted murder mystery,
Speaker 7: or so it's I think there's something to be said
Speaker 7: that the desensitize being desensitized and being conditioned. If somebody
Speaker 7: were to look at violent child porn at a young age,
Speaker 7: at least they believe that there's other people that think
Speaker 7: like they do. Is it a break from reality? Do
Speaker 7: they think that this actually occurs? But still does not
Speaker 7: really explain ted Bundy, I mean over and beyond one
Speaker 7: external thing being the creator of that. And I hate
Speaker 7: to argue about one thing creating this, but I've looked
Speaker 7: at a lot of serial killers as well, and I
Speaker 7: think everyone can say safely that, given that they share
Speaker 7: certain characteristics, despite that, there's no real explaining how people
Speaker 7: have the capability to kill ten or twelve or eight
Speaker 7: or people in this kind of manner. Wouldn't you agree?
Speaker 2: I do agree with you, But I think that the
Speaker 2: same thing could be said about you know, Dahmer and Caacy,
Speaker 2: the Son of Sam, all the way down to the
Speaker 2: Green River Killer. They could sit there all day and
Speaker 2: say that they had addiction problems, but millions of Americans
Speaker 2: and people all over the world suffer from addiction problems,
Speaker 2: and they don't go on mass murder sprees.
Speaker 7: Right, That's my point. Yeah, there's something unique about and
Speaker 7: I think that's why people are so fascinated by people
Speaker 7: that not only serial killers. I mean, you don't have
Speaker 7: to kill a bunch of people to be, you know,
Speaker 7: to terrorize people, like you say, there are terrorists there.
Speaker 7: People have traumatized people and they're never the same for
Speaker 7: the rest of their lives. And your book is not
Speaker 7: just talking about murder and serial killing, talking about violent
Speaker 7: crime and the trends that are there. So what did
Speaker 7: you see in terms of the most disturbing trend You've
Speaker 7: talked about murder rates skyrocketing. From everything I've read, they
Speaker 7: seem to be downplaying that violent crime is on or
Speaker 7: murder is down from traditionally, say nineteen ninety or so.
Speaker 7: Tell us what you did find the most disturbing trends
Speaker 7: in your research for this book.
Speaker 2: The biggest trend that seems to be skyrocketing across America's
Speaker 2: violent crimes where juvenile offenders are the ones being blame
Speaker 2: for it. Juveniles are taking away from the typical vandalism
Speaker 2: and stealing and they're committing horrific crimes such as rape, murder,
Speaker 2: all the way down to killing their own parents and
Speaker 2: their children.
Speaker 7: And what's the trend in terms of are the perpetrators
Speaker 7: getting younger, are the crimes more savage, is it more
Speaker 7: a pack mentality, gang mentality, or are those in those
Speaker 7: trends as well.
Speaker 2: I don't really quite think the gang mentality is quite
Speaker 2: bland for this. It is true the gang still do
Speaker 2: exist and they are quite bad, But in this case, I
Speaker 2: do believe they're getting younger children to be accused of
Speaker 2: murder all the way down to the age of eight.
Speaker 2: An example, you have two twelve year olds and Waukeshaw,
Speaker 2: Wisconsin who have just recently been arrested and charged with
Speaker 2: attempted murder for stabbing their friend nineteen times because they
Speaker 2: were addicted to some cult behavior. But again, I do
Speaker 2: not believes that this is gang related. I just believe
Speaker 2: that parents are not involved in their children's lives as
Speaker 2: much as they used to be. They're not there for
Speaker 2: their titsulate they used to be, and juveniles are getting
Speaker 2: a common sense that committing these crimes are almost a
Speaker 2: way of showing who they are, what they're capable of,
Speaker 2: and they're not really taking in the consideration the consequences
Speaker 2: of their actions.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you talk about how you're talking about the juveniles. Also,
Speaker 7: you did extensive research regarding juveniles and talked about the
Speaker 7: juvenile spends more time than the adult, that there's been
Speaker 7: changes in the judicial system as well that have not
Speaker 7: helped the juvenile as well. Tell us a little bit
Speaker 7: more about all of the things. Are some more of
Speaker 7: the things that you've found. In terms of what you
Speaker 7: went in here, you wouldn't have assumed any of this,
Speaker 7: So tell us what you did really find regarding the
Speaker 7: differences now as previously regarding juveniles.
Speaker 2: Well with the juvenile course, with them being as young
Speaker 2: as it really is, it's only roughly about one hundred
Speaker 2: and fourteen years old, the differences in the penalty phrase
Speaker 2: of the crimes that they had committed has changed drastically
Speaker 2: since they went from reform poems to placing juveniles and
Speaker 2: juvenile detention centers. The problem that has been found with
Speaker 2: this is that juveniles do spend more time on average
Speaker 2: in a correctional facility than their adult counterparts, such as
Speaker 2: a fourteen year old gets in trouble for raping a
Speaker 2: fellow high school student and they get placed into juvenile
Speaker 2: detentions until the age of twenty one, where they had
Speaker 2: then moved to an adult prison, where they will sit
Speaker 2: on average another four to six years before they were
Speaker 2: are reliefed on probation. Their adult counterpart can sit anywhere
Speaker 2: from no jail time at all with probation or supervision
Speaker 2: all the way up to a max of twenty five
Speaker 2: years to life depending on the aggravating factor. But six
Speaker 2: times out of ten, the juvenile is going to spend
Speaker 2: at least three to five more years in prison than
Speaker 2: an adult that had committed the same crime.
Speaker 7: And the programming that could possibly possibly rehabilitate someone that
Speaker 7: will say that could be rehabilitated based on community support
Speaker 7: and just getting to them, I guess young right at
Speaker 7: least that's there are cases of this anyway, and that's
Speaker 7: the idea. Well, what about where's the programming go is it?
Speaker 7: Is it prioritized towards the youth offender with the with
Speaker 7: the distinct uh reasoning behind that to intervene at this
Speaker 7: young age tell us about programming.
Speaker 2: Well, through my research, I have concluded that they do
Speaker 2: have rehabilitation programs for juveniles, both within the juvenile detention
Speaker 2: center and correctional facilities and in the community. But when
Speaker 2: they placed the juveniles in the community rehabilitation programs. It's
Speaker 2: more more of the burden has put on the parents
Speaker 2: than the actual juvenile themselves, whereas in the correctional facility,
Speaker 2: the juvenile has to take responsibility for those actions and
Speaker 2: they must complete the rehabilitation program in order to be released.
Speaker 7: Right, You said too that judges have lost their discretionary
Speaker 7: abilities to to have discretion on w which juveniles would
Speaker 7: warrant in cases of murder and serious rape and robbery
Speaker 7: where they would be put up to adult court. Now,
Speaker 7: what's that from? Is that from sort of a continuum
Speaker 7: of the mandatory minimum and restrict sort of sentencing that's
Speaker 7: strict sentencing with guidelines. Tell us how that comes to be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the new truth and Sentencing laws does allow judges
Speaker 2: and jurisdictions to sentence juveniles that have committed crimes such
Speaker 2: as serious rape, aggravated assaults, murder, and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: So we tried as an adult, which then allows them
Speaker 2: to try them and sentence them to the max as
Speaker 2: opposed to where they're charged as a juvenile. They would
Speaker 2: so long as a juvenile facility, and then they would be
Speaker 2: released back into the community where they would require undergoing
Speaker 2: treatment and rehabilitation services through the community.
Speaker 7: What else did you find with your research with juveniles
Speaker 7: that was particularly disturbing.
Speaker 2: I think the biggest thing that was disturbing me through
Speaker 2: researching juveniles is the manner in which they are treated.
Speaker 2: They are almost treated as an epidemic or applying that's
Speaker 2: going through the court system that needs to be dealt with,
Speaker 2: but they don't want to deal with it on the
Speaker 2: level of dealing with a child. They just want to
Speaker 2: deal with it on the level of them committing the
Speaker 2: same crime as an adult without taking to regard the
Speaker 2: juveniles and more rehabilitative than adults are later. And I
Speaker 2: also think that with juveniles, they have lost sense or track,
Speaker 2: if you will, of what to do with them because
Speaker 2: the crimes are getting more severe, they're starting at a
Speaker 2: younger age, and they're really losing track of what punishment
Speaker 2: and or rehabilitative services really work in order to prevent
Speaker 2: them from continuing on with their criminality later in life.
Speaker 7: What have you concluded at least how would you address this?
Speaker 7: What would you address first, and how would you address it.
Speaker 2: I am a big supporter of taking juveniles and looking
Speaker 2: at their circumstances and really going on a case to
Speaker 2: case basis. I am a big supporter of maximum penalties
Speaker 2: for juveniles who have committed serious felonies such as murder
Speaker 2: and rape, whereas I believe rehabilitations should really be at
Speaker 2: the forefront of juvenile punishment for bower level crimes as
Speaker 2: opposed to just placing them within the correctional facility, where
Speaker 2: I feel that they are not getting the help that
Speaker 2: they really deserve and or need to prevent them from
Speaker 2: continuing on the same path that they were on.
Speaker 7: When you talk about you talk about the disintegration of
Speaker 7: the family unit as well from previous where two people
Speaker 7: in a household, two parents, and not to say that
Speaker 7: that's you know, there are families that have split up
Speaker 7: amicably and they share the care of their kids, but
Speaker 7: more often than not, it's more of a sad story
Speaker 7: of tragedy and broken homes and people affected negatively by this.
Speaker 7: So you say this is a contributing factor to juvenile
Speaker 7: crime as well, And if that is the case, then
Speaker 7: you already have the disintegrating, disappearing family unit. Then you
Speaker 7: have these people with these heinous crimes at a young age.
Speaker 7: How then can those people be rehabilitated if they have
Speaker 7: to go then back into ideally back into a family unit,
Speaker 7: back to high school, back to school, back in with
Speaker 7: their family, if there really wasn't any anyway. So realistically,
Speaker 7: my question is, how do you really address this? Is
Speaker 7: it really possible? I mean, how would you again, how
Speaker 7: would you address that?
Speaker 2: And I think that's where the case, the case basis
Speaker 2: really comes into play. If these juveniles came from a
Speaker 2: broken home, they don't have a support system, they don't
Speaker 2: really have a family, and they're not involved in the community,
Speaker 2: then it is going to be next to them possible
Speaker 2: in order to rehabilitate them back into the community. But
Speaker 2: on the flip side, placing them into a correctional facility
Speaker 2: is going to be almost as dangerous as putting them
Speaker 2: back in the situation that they derived from to begin with.
Speaker 2: And I think that's where the child protective services and
Speaker 2: the state really comes into play, because sometimes they are
Speaker 2: able to rehabilitate these juveniles into a situation where placing
Speaker 2: them into a subsequent home has actually proved to be beneficial. However,
Speaker 2: this does not happen of the time, but it has
Speaker 2: proven that juveniles can be rehabilitated into a new family,
Speaker 2: as long as they are given the support system that
Speaker 2: they need.
Speaker 7: Not everybody as as much faith in it as other people.
Speaker 7: But psychology and psychologists are a big part of the
Speaker 7: courts now and they're realizing that they're a bigger part
Speaker 7: in society itself. And mental illness has shed a little
Speaker 7: bit of its stigma, and there are a lot of
Speaker 7: people that are at least under some kind of doctor's
Speaker 7: care for some kind of you know, I hate to
Speaker 7: use the phrase mental illness. So what about psychology? What
Speaker 7: did you find in your research? Did you find anything there?
Speaker 7: Look into anything about organic brain disease or some of
Speaker 7: the causation of some of this. Did you see any
Speaker 7: what was the sort of some conclusions or something that
Speaker 7: you did see in terms of the psychology of this
Speaker 7: and its effect in terms of rehabilitation.
Speaker 2: Possibly psychology really does come into play when we're talking
Speaker 2: about juvenile offenders and they're in the rehabilitative process. One
Speaker 2: of the biggest problems is that juveniles do not receive
Speaker 2: the amount of mental excuse me behavioral health that they require,
Speaker 2: whether it be because their parents do not notice their behavior,
Speaker 2: they do not want to get involved, or the juvenile
Speaker 2: just hides their behavior from those involved in their lives,
Speaker 2: and because they don't receive the behavioral health that they
Speaker 2: their behavior typically gets worse and as they go on,
Speaker 2: they're not really sure how to handle it, and so
Speaker 2: they take it out in a very negative way. And
Speaker 2: the behavioral health problems that they can oftentimes suffer from
Speaker 2: is ADHD, autism, aspergers, conduct disorders, schizophrenia, borderline personality disorder,
Speaker 2: and they can also suffer from post traumatic stress disorder
Speaker 2: and a wide array of other widely undiagnosed juveniles behavioral
Speaker 2: health disorders such as bipolar.
Speaker 7: And what's the solution there? I mean medication and I
Speaker 7: mean really can. I mean there's hardly enough psychologists to
Speaker 7: speak to one on one with everyone, let alone the
Speaker 7: troubled use right.
Speaker 2: Exactly. And the problem is at this point, there really
Speaker 2: is no solution. The only thing that we can do
Speaker 2: as parents and members of the community is we can
Speaker 2: make others aware of the growing mental health issues and juveniles,
Speaker 2: and we can help them with recognizing the red flags
Speaker 2: or the warning signs that these juveniles oftentimes give out
Speaker 2: and help them so that they are able to obtain
Speaker 2: the behavioral health services that they need. In the timely
Speaker 2: manner to prevent them from getting worse.
Speaker 7: I found it quite interesting too. You don't hear this
Speaker 7: word too often, maladaptive behavior. Maybe you could tell us
Speaker 7: what that really means. I kind of have an idea,
Speaker 7: but also I wanted to ask about how you Well,
Speaker 7: it was interesting what you say about it almost seems
Speaker 7: like a division between the certain kids that have that
Speaker 7: strong family unit and direction and really aren't succumbing to
Speaker 7: a lot of the other things and haven't been subjected
Speaker 7: to a lot of the other things like divorce and
Speaker 7: violence and drug abuse, alcohol abuse and worse and sexual
Speaker 7: and physical abuse that you're almost it is almost sort
Speaker 7: of a cautionary tale in terms of that they will
Speaker 7: You say that kids will certainly encounter some kind of
Speaker 7: maladaptive behavior. Tell us a little bit about how you
Speaker 7: talk about in the book about sort of this cautionary
Speaker 7: thing about what kids can expect out there.
Speaker 2: Well, first, it's important to understand what malodastic behavior really is,
Speaker 2: and essentially, it is dysfunctional and non productive behavior that
Speaker 2: one will engage in for a number of reasons, such
Speaker 2: as anxiety and other types such as depression. Melodative behavior
Speaker 2: is typically anything that is not socially normal. That can
Speaker 2: include attempting, suicide, sexual promiscuality. It can also include criminality
Speaker 2: and basically other forms of behavior that one would typically
Speaker 2: not see in children that come from willa just homes.
Speaker 7: And so, was I right in perceiving you sort of
Speaker 7: see a division between those people that have had this
Speaker 7: maybe generations of this sort of behavior sort of accepted
Speaker 7: to a certain extent, and the other people who have
Speaker 7: not even aren't even aware of it. Actually.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It is important also to remember that children that
Speaker 2: do come from well adjusted homes that haven't dealt with
Speaker 2: divorce and crime, abuse and stuff like that can engage
Speaker 2: in maladaptive behavior as well. It is not fully seen
Speaker 2: in individuals who come from dysfunctional and broken homes.
Speaker 7: No, no, no, certainly not. But it's just the the
Speaker 7: odds against you just become, you know, stack up a
Speaker 7: little bit more, that's all exactly. Yeah. That's the thing
Speaker 7: about crime that people are really part of. The horrifying
Speaker 7: aspect of it is it is the boy next door,
Speaker 7: It is that great family and that kid you thought
Speaker 7: really loved his parents, or vice versa, or a loving
Speaker 7: husband and wife, and so one never knows. That's what's
Speaker 7: the really shocking part of violent crime, isn't it exactly? Now,
Speaker 7: we didn't talk so much about forensic disciplines, but what
Speaker 7: do you see on the horizon as truly one of
Speaker 7: the more it seems that DNA is progressing again when
Speaker 7: they used to be able to not have be able
Speaker 7: to take DNA from sources like they are today. They're
Speaker 7: using smaller and smaller samples and be able to get
Speaker 7: DNA from sources twenty five or thirty years or long
Speaker 7: past where they thought they might get something from that.
Speaker 7: But other than the DNA developments, and if there are
Speaker 7: some developments in DNA that did you did find letter audience? No,
Speaker 7: But what are the sort of the more interesting bright
Speaker 7: spots in sort of forensics these days?
Speaker 2: I would say it's some of the most interesting advancements
Speaker 2: in forensics that have recently been developed as the use
Speaker 2: of three D three D autopsies, which allow scientists to
Speaker 2: autopsy the body via kind of like a big MRI
Speaker 2: machine without risking the sample or decomposing the sample by
Speaker 2: having to typically cut into them. So they're able to
Speaker 2: save or preserve the body for further testing or further
Speaker 2: use by use of the three D autopsies.
Speaker 7: And how common is that if they used it it
Speaker 7: successfully in in the prosecution of of cases or w W,
Speaker 7: as it stood up to any kind of scrutiny, is
Speaker 7: what I'm saying. I can't see where would come from,
Speaker 7: but just give it the defense lawyer a few minutes
Speaker 7: as uh is it passed that litmus test. So far.
Speaker 2: At this point, three autopsies has not been used in America.
Speaker 2: At this point, it was developed by a group of
Speaker 2: scientists in another country. I believe it was Switzerland, And
Speaker 2: at this point it's still in the building stages that
Speaker 2: they have shown where it would be much more productive.
Speaker 2: It would save on cost, and it would also provide
Speaker 2: scientists and or members of the court a way of
Speaker 2: showing the members of the court and the jury of
Speaker 2: the autopsy in person instead of having to rely on
Speaker 2: results on a sheet of paper.
Speaker 7: Yes, are there any because what I think there is
Speaker 7: another sort of myth is that the forensically was my
Speaker 7: observation not fingerprinting, because there's been a few advancements in
Speaker 7: terms of taking fingerprints off difficult sources gunpowder residue. But
Speaker 7: the I think the other one was the eyewitness testimony
Speaker 7: has been luckily for that DNA has come to the
Speaker 7: rescue because now we know a lot more about eyewitness
Speaker 7: testimony and how people respond sometimes trying to recall who
Speaker 7: might be their perpetrator. So tell us about any one
Speaker 7: of the forensics, because I know that you touch on
Speaker 7: one where we have an idea that that is inaccurate,
Speaker 7: but over the years that is proven to not be
Speaker 7: an acceptable or reliable forensic tool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, forensic psychologists have actually shown that a good portion
Speaker 2: of witnesses that have testified to a crime are not
Speaker 2: able to accurately and fully reiterate these statements that they
Speaker 2: had made, which leads to false identification. And it has
Speaker 2: said that approximately about one percent of death row inmates
Speaker 2: are falsely executed and or falsely convicted of a crime,
Speaker 2: and a good portion of the time it is because
Speaker 2: of misidentification for witnesses.
Speaker 7: Now, when you looked at more motivation for violent crime,
Speaker 7: we on this program have discussed the psychopath person without
Speaker 7: a conscience somehow that never really developed that empathy. Jeffrey
Speaker 7: Dahmer was one of those people said, don't blame my parents.
Speaker 7: I just wanted to do this. I just wanted to
Speaker 7: do it. So what did you any conclusions that you
Speaker 7: could find on all of this research in terms of
Speaker 7: a central motivation for people that would do the heinous
Speaker 7: violent crime over and over again.
Speaker 2: I firmly believe that individuals that are capable of committing
Speaker 2: these type of crimes really black a lot of self
Speaker 2: control within their own lives, and that they do tend
Speaker 2: to psychopaths themselves, tend to stay away from blaming other people.
Speaker 2: They do blame themselves for their own actions. And that
Speaker 2: may not be because they actually believe that they can
Speaker 2: the crime. It may just be because they want to
Speaker 2: be the forefront of their own attention. They don't want
Speaker 2: the attention plastered to their parents. Like Dohmer, he got
Speaker 2: verbally angry when they tried to blame his parents for
Speaker 2: his behavior. And that's because Delmer wanted the attention on himself.
Speaker 2: He didn't want the attention to be sprayed towards his parents,
Speaker 2: friends worked his childhood, the way he grew up. He
Speaker 2: wanted the attention on himself.
Speaker 7: Well, I won't argue with that, because they are, you know,
Speaker 7: incredibly narcissistic and ego. There is an ego in terms
Speaker 7: of and I mean, you know, maybe Dahmer isn't the
Speaker 7: best example, but there's many of his contemporaries that are
Speaker 7: great examples of guys that just reveled in their crimes. Afterwards,
Speaker 7: they love the limelight, the spotlight. They really enjoyed the
Speaker 7: court cases, they really performed. So yeah, I'd have to
Speaker 7: agree with you there. What do you did you find
Speaker 7: in terms of Bundy is such a complex character, you know,
Speaker 7: compared to some of the guys like Gacy and Dahmer,
Speaker 7: he seems downright more sophisticated. What did you find in
Speaker 7: terms of Bundy's central motivation? Because he could have got away,
Speaker 7: He escaped, escaped a couple of times. He maybe could
Speaker 7: have hidden. People noted it as a compulsion. But what
Speaker 7: did you see in looking at Bundy?
Speaker 2: Well, with Bundy, he was extremely intelligent. He tried to
Speaker 2: go through college for psychology and for loss. He did
Speaker 2: end up plunking out, but it was not because he
Speaker 2: wasn't smart enough to do the work. It was more
Speaker 2: because he had self doubts on himself. With Bundy, he
Speaker 2: could have absolutely have gotten away. He escape from prison.
Speaker 2: He managed to stay away for I believe it was
Speaker 2: a two year period before he was picked up. I
Speaker 2: do believe the compulsion took over and he had to
Speaker 2: keep going. He had to keep doing what he was
Speaker 2: doing to feel the control in himself. He had dealt
Speaker 2: with the life of being rejected no matter which way
Speaker 2: he went, whether it's his parents, his girlfriend, in school,
Speaker 2: he was always rejected. The longer he stayed away, the
Speaker 2: longer that compulsion popped up, and the more he had
Speaker 2: to commit those crimes and do what he had to
Speaker 2: do to feel like he was in control because he
Speaker 2: couldn't handle being out of control, because he went right
Speaker 2: back to the whole rejection process.
Speaker 7: Did you find in looking at Bundy and then looking
Speaker 7: at less serious violent criminals such as rapists, and then
Speaker 7: looking at the far less serious we'll say violent criminal juvenile.
Speaker 7: Is there us some common link in behavior between Do
Speaker 7: they share something those those that are capable of the
Speaker 7: most serious of crimes.
Speaker 2: I do believe that mass murders, serial killers, rapists, and
Speaker 2: even sex defenders they do tend to hold a common
Speaker 2: trait that narcissism and their egotistical way of thinking really
Speaker 2: comes into play that prevents them from empathizing and really
Speaker 2: looking at people like their human beings, or that they're
Speaker 2: just the same way as they are. That narcissism really
Speaker 2: comes out and it really takes over their way of thinking,
Speaker 2: and they really find that they have to commit these
Speaker 2: crimes in order to show that they are in control,
Speaker 2: that they have the control over other people, and that well,
Speaker 2: basically it just comes down to a control thing, you know,
Speaker 2: with stuff spenders, they have to be in control of
Speaker 2: their victims, With rapists they have to be in control
Speaker 2: of their victims. Serial killers or in control of their victims.
Speaker 2: And even with mass murders, while they're not really out
Speaker 2: killing people, they kill people all in one, all at
Speaker 2: one time, without taking a break, they're still in control
Speaker 2: of the situation. And attention is another aspect that they crave,
Speaker 2: and with being in control, obviously they receive the attention
Speaker 2: that they're looking for.
Speaker 7: Now. I agree with you, and many of the experts
Speaker 7: will as well. But when you get a Bundy going
Speaker 7: back to the graves to visit the graves and commit necrophilia,
Speaker 7: isn't it you know what I mean? You know what
Speaker 7: I mean? Just in terms of stand I just think
Speaker 7: that it almost seems like some people are beyond our
Speaker 7: comprehension of what could happen under any circumstances. I understand control,
Speaker 7: but you know, I didn't really want to be known
Speaker 7: as a necrofile. But part of his compulsion was to
Speaker 7: go back and have sex with the dead.
Speaker 2: It could you know, he could, he could have velved
Speaker 2: into the world in necophilia simply because he felt that
Speaker 2: he needed to have control of that victim even in death,
Speaker 2: just like Dahmer had stated that the reason why he
Speaker 2: ate some of his victims is because he felt like
Speaker 2: he then had control of the the victim and that
Speaker 2: he would forever have control of the victim if he
Speaker 2: had ingested the body parts.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and Dennis Nilsen wanted the company and Dahmer wanted
Speaker 7: to be people to stay and yeah, incredible, and Jacy
Speaker 7: had him under his floorboards in the base.
Speaker 2: And I think Dean is a very interesting example of
Speaker 2: that as well, mainly because he had to wear his victims.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely so. Through this all this research,
Speaker 7: how hard was it? I guess you know, it's what
Speaker 7: asking somebody that's interested in this if it was, you know,
Speaker 7: affected them. But was there anything that is there still
Speaker 7: optimism that the human that you can understand this sort
Speaker 7: of behavior and that there is some there is some
Speaker 7: hope that this kind of behavior can reverse somehow or no.
Speaker 2: Within my honest opinion, I'm not I'm not positive. I
Speaker 2: think as a race or as a society, we can
Speaker 2: only do so much and until I mean it, really,
Speaker 2: it really just comes down to until we see one
Speaker 2: another as being equals and we look at each other
Speaker 2: like we're human beings, the violence is just going to continue.
Speaker 2: Violence has been a part of the human race since
Speaker 2: the beginning of the time, and if you look throughout history,
Speaker 2: one thing remains the same. The violence is getting worse,
Speaker 2: the crimes are getting worse, the human beings are being
Speaker 2: dehumanized for whatever reason, and it all it all comes
Speaker 2: down to the fact that everybody wants to be number one.
Speaker 7: In your research, you're based in the United States, Am
Speaker 7: I correct? Yes, in America. I know some statistics and
Speaker 7: I looked up for this interview as well America. What
Speaker 7: they say is that it's hard to compare violent crime
Speaker 7: in America because of the sum of the the charges
Speaker 7: the official criminal charges designations, and say, for example, in Canada,
Speaker 7: what might be aggravated assault might be three different separate
Speaker 7: potential charges in Canada, so they're hard to be comparable.
Speaker 7: So when they do compare violent crime, what they use
Speaker 7: is more as they say, reliable factor, and that or
Speaker 7: factor or statistic is murder. And so America has three
Speaker 7: times the murder rate of Canada and sometimes up to
Speaker 7: five times the murder rate of countries like France and
Speaker 7: Ireland and England, Italy. Yeah, and you know so and
Speaker 7: countries with a fair population too. I mean, America is
Speaker 7: much bigger. And unless you're going to say that country
Speaker 7: means that means murder has to increase two or threefold
Speaker 7: or fourfold. What do you attribute as the number one
Speaker 7: reason why America seems to be not seems to be
Speaker 7: factually is two or three or four times more violent
Speaker 7: than any other country in the world except South Africa,
Speaker 7: which is incredible, but really it really is much more
Speaker 7: violent than almost any other country in the world. Why
Speaker 7: would that be.
Speaker 2: I think it comes down to the sentencing guidelines, that
Speaker 2: legislation that legislators put into play. The amount of prison
Speaker 2: time that violent criminals will receive in the United States
Speaker 2: is drastically declining as the crimes get worse. The amount
Speaker 2: of individuals spending life in prison or receiving the death
Speaker 2: penalty are drastically declining, whereas a number of years ago
Speaker 2: they would receive an automatic life sentence for committing murder.
Speaker 2: But now you can walk away from a murder charge
Speaker 2: with simple probation. And that's where that's where it really lies.
Speaker 2: They need to up the ant on the sentencing guidelines
Speaker 2: and they really need to put into place punishment for
Speaker 2: the crimes that are committed because basically Americans are no
Speaker 2: longer afraid of the justice system.
Speaker 7: Is there any are you going to put any weight
Speaker 7: at all? Because I mean, it's we talk about this
Speaker 7: in Canada because one of the issues, one of the
Speaker 7: conversations in Canada is that you know, America is a
Speaker 7: violent place, and America is out of control because of
Speaker 7: their guns and they have no gun control. It's easy
Speaker 7: access to guns six times as many handguns, will say,
Speaker 7: for example, as Canadians three times as many rifles. But
Speaker 7: the kind of weaponry you can buy in the US
Speaker 7: is maybe not unique or exclusive to the US, but
Speaker 7: like a country like Canada, then again, Canada's sort of
Speaker 7: the same murder rate as France and Ireland and England
Speaker 7: a little bit maybe a little bit higher, but I
Speaker 7: know it's a sensitive issue, but luckily I'm sitting here
Speaker 7: on the other side of the border. Are guns part
Speaker 7: of your reason that you got to rethink some of this?
Speaker 7: I mean, I don't want to get into a big
Speaker 7: debate on the constitution or you know, if you have
Speaker 7: a gun, and if I would have had a gun,
Speaker 7: then another guy with a gun, and I would have
Speaker 7: killed that guy with the gun or protected myself from
Speaker 7: the guy with the gun. But is it a stretch
Speaker 7: to say that guns might be part of this reason
Speaker 7: for such a violent, seemingly violent society.
Speaker 2: I think guns have a good portion of the reason
Speaker 2: why Americans are so silent, mainly because guns are so
Speaker 2: easy to get in this country. Whether you're a child's adult,
Speaker 2: a felon, it doesn't matter. If the criminal wants a gun,
Speaker 2: they're going to get a gun. Like I reside in
Speaker 2: the state of Wisconsin. Wisconsin has some of the most
Speaker 2: lenient gun laws in the country. You can purchase a
Speaker 2: gun at a gun show, no license, no nothing, and
Speaker 2: it's completely legal. And with laws like that, it becomes
Speaker 2: very dangerous because anybody and their brother can receive a
Speaker 2: gun from another person and it's not even to be
Speaker 2: in track, so authorities don't even know that these dangerous
Speaker 2: individuals have weapons, weapons are being smuggled into the country
Speaker 2: and in an alarming rates, such as drugs, and the
Speaker 2: government doesn't step in, doesn't do anything to stop the
Speaker 2: growing gun problem within our country because Americans really put
Speaker 2: their foot down and they hold to their Constitution and
Speaker 2: their Amendment rights in orders to their arms to protect themselves.
Speaker 2: And that's really where the problem lies. So yes, I
Speaker 2: do believe that the growing gun problem in our country
Speaker 2: does contribute to a lot of the growing crime in
Speaker 2: our country as well.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I wouldn't blame the gun, but I would blame
Speaker 7: the lack of regulation. That just makes sense in terms
Speaker 7: of the sanity. I'm not a big wave flagger here
Speaker 7: in Canada. We do everything right. But when you just
Speaker 7: start looking at hard statistics, it's not like people say
Speaker 7: all Canadians are polite. We're not polite, We're violent. I'm
Speaker 7: living in the murder capital of Canada, and trust me,
Speaker 7: it's not polite here. And there's murder and there's drugs.
Speaker 7: You could say, well, there's drugs in America, there's drugs here,
Speaker 7: same drugs, same mafia, same mafia. Same gangs or same
Speaker 7: gang mentalities that you know, a guy will kill you
Speaker 7: here for initiation probably too. So so you can only
Speaker 7: attribute it to guns themselves in terms of that lack
Speaker 7: of regulation, loopholes at these gun shows, and you know,
Speaker 7: in insane lack of regulation. In terms of a guy
Speaker 7: gets you know, he gets out of a nuthouse after
Speaker 7: ten years and still no check, no background check, No
Speaker 7: you can't wait three days and you get this guy gun.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 7: I know there's state the state, there's differences, but I
Speaker 7: would say that this is this is certainly has to
Speaker 7: be a major contributing factor. Is that not to say
Speaker 7: take away guns, because in this country you have the
Speaker 7: right to have guns, lots of them. You want to
Speaker 7: be a collector, you want to shoot, you want to
Speaker 7: go with all kinds of gun, you know, fans of guns, hunters,
Speaker 7: people that like to shoot. So so that's all I
Speaker 7: can say, and I go ahead.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say it really comes down to the way
Speaker 2: people treat their weapons. If they're going to use their
Speaker 2: weapons appropriately, use them for self defense, use them for hunting,
Speaker 2: collecting and stuff like that, then there's no problem. But
Speaker 2: when they're using them as a means of control power
Speaker 2: and to ultimately take another human's life. That's when the
Speaker 2: power of gun control really needs to come into play.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 7: Well, I won't harp on that, but I mean that,
Speaker 7: I know, you know that I can't deny something like that.
Speaker 7: I know it's a political hot potato, big issue. I mean,
Speaker 7: after the Sandy Hook massacre, I mean incredible. I thought
Speaker 7: for sure that that would be your pivotal moment where
Speaker 7: there would be some movement, not drastic, but some And
Speaker 7: that's all. I thought it would happen, that there would
Speaker 7: be some movement because of that event, and you know,
Speaker 7: didn't happen. So I thought, well, I don't know what
Speaker 7: will be the catalyst for a change in the US,
Speaker 7: but I think that really it did.
Speaker 2: It comes to the banning of the AR fifteen and
Speaker 2: the high caliber weapons.
Speaker 8: M well, that's something that it did be some of
Speaker 8: the the bigger guns out of the hands of violent
Speaker 8: criminals to an extent.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, something happened from it as a result. So
Speaker 7: this book took you in. How long was this entire
Speaker 7: research for this book and when did it come out?
Speaker 7: And if people are interested in this book other than Amazon,
Speaker 7: where when they might be able to get a copy
Speaker 7: of the book, and how would they be able to
Speaker 7: contact you if they feel so inclined.
Speaker 2: The actual research of the entire book took me about
Speaker 2: six years, so roughly between two thousand and nine and
Speaker 2: March of twenty fourteen. It was published on April second
Speaker 2: of twenty fourteen through the light Switch Press. The book
Speaker 2: can be purchased on Amazon, Barna, the Noble, the light
Speaker 2: Switch Press website, and as of right now, those are
Speaker 2: the only three places to purchase it.
Speaker 7: Do you do? You do the Facebook if people are
Speaker 7: interested in contacting you, commenting, giving you feedback or anything
Speaker 7: like that.
Speaker 2: Yes, I actually have a Facebook page called true Crime
Speaker 2: with Amanda Seaton.
Speaker 7: And that's seat o N Yeah, with the in visual
Speaker 7: write about this moment. And so you also have another
Speaker 7: book also about forensic forensic disciplines that do you published
Speaker 7: last year? Am I not correct?
Speaker 2: I did?
Speaker 7: Yes?
Speaker 2: I unpublished that so I could rewrite it and I
Speaker 2: integrated all that information into this book.
Speaker 7: I see, Okay, I got it. Okay, great, Well. I
Speaker 7: want to thank you very much for coming on and
Speaker 7: talking about violent crimes in America. Was very interesting conversation
Speaker 7: and very provocative book. Some interesting facts about juveniles that
Speaker 7: I had no idea, and I thought I had read
Speaker 7: quite a bit about what was going on. So interesting
Speaker 7: take that you have on some of the solutions and
Speaker 7: where we might best focus our energies at the very
Speaker 7: least if resources are limited, which they are. So thank
Speaker 7: you very much, Thank.
Speaker 2: You again for inviting me.
Speaker 7: Thank you, Amanda. I've been listening to Amanda seton violent
Speaker 7: crimes in America. Thank you, Amanda. Have a good night.