Speaker 1: Get ready.
Speaker 2: February eleven, twenty twenty five, allegedly according to that thing
Speaker 2: we call a calendar, And yeah, this is the show
Speaker 2: you were looking for. How do I know it because
Speaker 2: you found it the o'celly effect. Anyway, Look, it is
Speaker 2: a Tuesday, right and tearesday it is. And it's funny
Speaker 2: because normally I've had Larry Hancock on lately on Wednesdays.
Speaker 2: But this is a special episode anyway, for more than
Speaker 2: one reason. And in case you haven't guessed yet, yes,
Speaker 2: Larry Hancock is back with me. Of course, an author
Speaker 2: who takes up a lot of space on my bookshelf.
Speaker 2: I've said this before, and he doesn't just take up
Speaker 2: space there. And we're not today gonna talk about the
Speaker 2: new book on Lee Harvey Oswald, not at all. In fact,
Speaker 2: we're gonna talk about something that I really was unsure
Speaker 2: we were gonna end up getting to. But then I
Speaker 2: saw on Instagram and caught up later that maybe somebody
Speaker 2: had made an appearance on the Alex Jones Show that
Speaker 2: had something to do with one of the well more
Speaker 2: discussed characters in the JFK case. Okay, and not necessarily
Speaker 2: the first name that you would think of on this
Speaker 2: show for sure, but definitely somebody tied to well, let's
Speaker 2: spoil it a little bit, the universe of LBJ. Anyway,
Speaker 2: before I go any further into the discussion, let's see
Speaker 2: how Larry Hancock is, because he's with me tonight and
Speaker 2: we're going to actually team up sort of to do
Speaker 2: an interview with a really unique guy that I'm real
Speaker 2: happy to have on the show who is related to
Speaker 2: one of those people who was in that Johnson universe
Speaker 2: and Hm is he the guy who was working with
Speaker 2: him in the Oval office? No, anyway, maybe it goes
Speaker 2: a little d deeper, maybe a dozen't. You got to
Speaker 2: see for yourself, Larry. How you doing tonight, Sarah?
Speaker 3: I'm doing good, Chuck. And as I was just saying,
Speaker 3: this show has taken me back, like almost thirty years
Speaker 3: to the late nineties when I was working all things Texas,
Speaker 3: and it's like it's been a great opportunity for me
Speaker 3: to try to recover some long varied memories, right.
Speaker 2: And you know, I'm struggling in my head to figure
Speaker 2: out the proper way to introduce the man that's with
Speaker 2: us today because he's an interesting guy and like, just
Speaker 2: just talking to him a little bit off air. It
Speaker 2: has been interesting for me. I'm very curious about this
Speaker 2: audio that came out. I mean, perhaps you and I
Speaker 2: should talk about that real fast, because I wasn't even
Speaker 2: aware of that audio and you passed it over to me,
Speaker 2: and I said, WHOA, how did I miss this? And
Speaker 2: I did. I was busy with other things, and I
Speaker 2: was like, WHOA, wait a minute, how did I miss this?
Speaker 2: It was literally marked as a confession once again regarding
Speaker 2: the JFK assassination. And maybe you could help me set
Speaker 2: this up just a little bit, because I think it
Speaker 2: requires some setup before we let this gentleman speak for
Speaker 2: himself about this tape. It's wild, though, go ahead, ry.
Speaker 3: This was an area that got a lot of discussion,
Speaker 3: as I stay, starting in the late nineties. Probably what
Speaker 3: really brought it to more general attention is Billy saw
Speaker 3: SDS did an interview with a French journalist, William Ramond,
Speaker 3: and that interview was circulated. I got a copy of it,
Speaker 3: an English translation of the interview, and in it, Billy
Speaker 3: Saalest was talking about the involvement of Linda Johnson and
Speaker 3: Cliff Carter in a series of murders out in West
Speaker 3: Texas and that that really surfaced this within the assassination
Speaker 3: rechurch community. It became a big, big deal for two
Speaker 3: or three years, a lot of discussion, of course, of
Speaker 3: Johnson had been discussed as a as a suspect for
Speaker 3: since day one. You know, when I told Jane when
Speaker 3: I first started working in Texas, it's like everybody I
Speaker 3: talked to, all the Techans, Texans said they assumed it
Speaker 3: was Johnson because nobody trusted him about anything, and it
Speaker 3: was just kind of like the assumption he must have
Speaker 3: had something to do with it. So, but it's that's
Speaker 3: almost three decades, you know that that's a long time ago.
Speaker 3: But it was a topic of a great discussion for
Speaker 3: two or three years, and then Billy sol Estes published
Speaker 3: his own book. I think after maybe Romone did not
Speaker 3: give him the kind of money that he was expecting,
Speaker 3: as I recall from one conversation and that you know
Speaker 3: that carried it forward. But it's not been you know,
Speaker 3: it was as this these things do they they come
Speaker 3: and go. So it was a very hot topic at
Speaker 3: one point in time. You know, would have found it
Speaker 3: all over the compu served a forum, but it really
Speaker 3: has not been around for a couple of decades as
Speaker 3: a major discussion topic to come knowledge right now.
Speaker 2: For a long time it was preserved in the Man
Speaker 2: Who Killed Kennedy kind of concept, and in fact, the
Speaker 2: Men Who Killed Kennedy they took away that episode right
Speaker 2: from the Men Who Killed Kennedy series. Although I got
Speaker 2: to say the way that they scripted that was pretty
Speaker 2: was pretty interesting, because I was just thinking of it
Speaker 2: while you were speaking. Tongues were already wagging in Texas,
Speaker 2: you know, regarding Johnson immediately, because Johnson's from Texas, it
Speaker 2: would have made sense Kennedy's killed in Texas. But then
Speaker 2: it got deeper and at some point we have this
Speaker 2: testimony too, right where you have this list of victims
Speaker 2: of lynnon Beans Johnson, and that surfaced and that was
Speaker 2: obviously clearly shown in that episode of The Men Who
Speaker 2: Killed Kennedy. And as far as I know, that is
Speaker 2: the main place that people were still discovering this is
Speaker 2: by the bootleg copies of episode nine of the Men
Speaker 2: Who Killed Kennedy. You know what I mean?
Speaker 3: That is true, But Chuck, the kind of surprising thing
Speaker 3: is that had first become public back in nineteen eighty four. Again,
Speaker 3: this is not a new story. Billy Sall had appealed
Speaker 3: some charges he'd been convicted of, and he was looking
Speaker 3: for a deal with the Grand Jewelry. Douglas Caddy of
Speaker 3: what Watergate fame was his lawyer at that point in time,
Speaker 3: and his paperwork actually refers to a series of murders
Speaker 3: in West Texas and the murder of jfk. And at
Speaker 3: that point in time he was talking to his lawyer
Speaker 3: about the fact that he had tapes with Cliff Carter
Speaker 3: talking about this. So again, this is really a long
Speaker 3: time story that surfaces again and again over time.
Speaker 2: Right, So now enter mister Stevens into this conversation, which
Speaker 2: how you doing tonight, sir? You ready to tell this story?
Speaker 4: Yes, sir, thanks for having me on and I'm excited
Speaker 4: to talk with you guys and your audience.
Speaker 2: Right now. Larry has just given I think, a really
Speaker 2: excellent background on this as to what people could have
Speaker 2: discovered where they might have heard the name Billy so
Speaker 2: Lestie's before, and where they might recognize that he was
Speaker 2: tied to this circumstance, that he was known among people
Speaker 2: who researched the assassination and things like that, And indeed
Speaker 2: going all the way back to the eighties. This was
Speaker 2: one of the things that I had to be initiated
Speaker 2: into because I got into the case in about eighty
Speaker 2: eight myself, and of course I had to hear about this,
Speaker 2: but it was one of those things I didn't know
Speaker 2: what to do with. It was part of what everybody
Speaker 2: called the Texas Connection. And one guy wrote a book
Speaker 2: which wasn't all that great, called the Texas Connection, but
Speaker 2: other people had written many a book about these different
Speaker 2: connections in Texas, you know, and this involved the oil
Speaker 2: men and Madeline Brown and everything, you know over the years,
Speaker 2: going through the Heraldo appearances, going through the television appearances
Speaker 2: and all of that. And meanwhile, this is a member
Speaker 2: of your family we're talking about here over and over again.
Speaker 2: So let's let's begin there.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's fascinating here and Larry talk about some
Speaker 4: of the conversations he had with my granddad.
Speaker 5: You know, he hadn't been with us for over a
Speaker 5: decade now, and you know, he certainly missed that.
Speaker 4: I remember vividly the times of Saul talking about, Oh,
Speaker 4: we're going to get.
Speaker 5: A big book deal, it's going to be a movie deal,
Speaker 5: and you know, he went from being one of.
Speaker 4: The wealthiest men in Texas way before I was born,
Speaker 4: in the fifties and early sixties, and to really, I mean,
Speaker 4: it was the richest rag story of my grandmother after
Speaker 4: they took everything from him and put him in prison,
Speaker 4: her working three jobs and sewing my my mom and her.
Speaker 5: Brothers and sisters clothes.
Speaker 4: You know, they had a really, really rough and you know,
Speaker 4: it was kind of tough on the family, but a
Speaker 4: lot of them recovered to some degree, and Saul always
Speaker 4: thought in his head, he still had a kind of
Speaker 4: a twinkle in his eye. He thought that he was
Speaker 4: going to recover financially and make a big mint and
Speaker 4: get it all back. And part of that was, you know,
Speaker 4: about a book deal or a movie deal. And you know, frankly,
Speaker 4: I kind of never started to give up on that
Speaker 4: because there were probably two or three different ones, and
Speaker 4: finally I was like, I don't think anybody's ever going
Speaker 4: to pay the money to do this.
Speaker 5: Deal and make it happen. But I guess who knows, Larry,
Speaker 5: maybe your name was one that he had mentioned at
Speaker 5: the time, or.
Speaker 4: You know, somehow perhaps we were in the same conversation area.
Speaker 4: So it took a few decades to get together.
Speaker 5: But here we are.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and that's an interesting take because look, on
Speaker 2: the one hand, there is your life experiences and what
Speaker 2: goes on, and then later on in life, you know
Speaker 2: a lot of people try and cash in on something
Speaker 2: that they were part of something or other. And I'm
Speaker 2: not casting any aspersions here. I wouldn't blame him, especially
Speaker 2: you know, he has to go through his family having
Speaker 2: to go through what it goes through. You know, when
Speaker 2: you get incarcerated and you lose things that way and
Speaker 2: you lose your well, you're standing in society, your property itself,
Speaker 2: all of that. I mean, look, everybody looks to come
Speaker 2: back out of that and say there's got to be
Speaker 2: some redemption here. And if you have something that you
Speaker 2: could offer, I mean, why not. Plus, I mean, if
Speaker 2: you're talking about the nineteen eighties on, there's a lot
Speaker 2: of lucrative deals here that are made. I mean, for
Speaker 2: God's sake, they paid Vince Bugliosi a million dollars and
Speaker 2: he didn't know anything about the case at all to
Speaker 2: write a book. You know, why not? And yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: taking a stab at a dead guy, but I would
Speaker 2: do it if he was alive. Trust me. Point is right,
Speaker 2: there was plenty of money. Why not. He has a
Speaker 2: connection and con troversial connection. But a guy who was
Speaker 2: forever marked as what you know, one of the I mean,
Speaker 2: let's be blunt. You've heard this before. He's marked as
Speaker 2: one of the con men who was part of right
Speaker 2: Johnson's criminal organization. And by the way, I have no
Speaker 2: problem calling Lyndon Baines Johnson a criminal. But but I'll
Speaker 2: leave that alone. Maybe maybe you'd agree with me, maybe not,
Speaker 2: we'll see. Uh. But you know, but look, your your
Speaker 2: grandpa is your grandpa and uh, and he has this
Speaker 2: tie to it. And I mean, what were your thoughts
Speaker 2: about it early on? I mean, did you did you
Speaker 2: know about these tapes all along? Did you know about
Speaker 2: the whole story all along? Or did you only know
Speaker 2: about part of it as you were growing up and
Speaker 2: learning about it later. I mean, give us an idea
Speaker 2: of your awareness of this.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so, I so.
Speaker 4: One of my earliest childhood memories, and I guess this
Speaker 4: would have been in the early eighties, was going in
Speaker 4: this old beat up limo and driving out to Big Springs,
Speaker 4: Texas and picking Soul up from jail or a prison
Speaker 4: out there in Big Springs, and I was just excited
Speaker 4: that we were going to get to, you know, have
Speaker 4: my granddad back and have him as part of my life.
Speaker 4: And certainly not old enough to understand or comprehend any
Speaker 4: of the magnitude of picking.
Speaker 5: Your granddad up for prison or what that really meant.
Speaker 4: It didn't feel kind of dirty, and I, you know,
Speaker 4: I knew that I didn't necessarily want to probably touch
Speaker 4: a lot of people there or something, which you know
Speaker 4: isn't necessarily true, but that's the memory that I have.
Speaker 4: But when I was six, maybe seven years old, of
Speaker 4: going into a prison to pick him up, and then
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, I was on the front page
Speaker 4: of the Appline Reporter News with him holding me and
Speaker 4: carrying me out of jail.
Speaker 5: I was excited about it. I thought it was pretty
Speaker 5: cool that I was on the newspaper.
Speaker 4: But then, you know, friends at school, and all of
Speaker 4: a sudden it blew up that you know, my granddad
Speaker 4: was a con man and a you know, a bad guy,
Speaker 4: and felon and all this stuff. And so, you know,
Speaker 4: Abilene was a pretty small town then and still to
Speaker 4: some degree he is. And you get judged pretty hard
Speaker 4: for that stuff, so all of a sudden when starts
Speaker 4: living with us, you know, it was kind of almost.
Speaker 5: A burden at times.
Speaker 4: He lived with me and my mom and my dad
Speaker 4: for years, and then my mom afterwards, and frankly, you know,
Speaker 4: I really avoided most of this stuff. I'd never read
Speaker 4: his book, either of his books, my aunt's book. I
Speaker 4: haven't read most of the books on him. I read
Speaker 4: Roger Stone's book, but I just stayed away from it
Speaker 4: because it just was kind of almost a negative thing.
Speaker 2: I got you. So you're six or seven when he
Speaker 2: comes out of prison. Yeah, okay, and then how long
Speaker 2: does it take before you know, like I say, you
Speaker 2: become more aware of this stuff. I mean you said
Speaker 2: initially you weren't. Really it's just your granddad's coming out,
Speaker 2: and you got the childish view of prison, which is
Speaker 2: in normal natural you know, you don't know what to
Speaker 2: make of it. I mean, listen, grown people don't know
Speaker 2: what to make a prison if they have no exposure
Speaker 2: to it. But the thing is, okay, you got granddad
Speaker 2: back home, and you start to realize the communities not
Speaker 2: necessarily welcoming and back with open arms, and you got
Speaker 2: to contend with you know, what was he a bad guy?
Speaker 2: He's in prison, but he's my granddad and you're dealing
Speaker 2: with him on a daily basis, and you're saying to
Speaker 2: yourself probably like he doesn't seem like a bad guy, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, this kind of thing going on, But eventually
Speaker 2: you're gonna change and you're gonna start to look into
Speaker 2: these things. And just to qualify it, how old are
Speaker 2: you today as we speak, if you don't mind me asking?
Speaker 5: From forty eight?
Speaker 2: Now? Forty eight now, so you're just a little bit
Speaker 2: younger than me. Okay. It's interesting though, because this is
Speaker 2: a big transition to go from six seven year old
Speaker 2: to you know, just just edging up to fifty. All right,
Speaker 2: go on, So so tell me about how you learned
Speaker 2: and grew into this to know about this a bit.
Speaker 5: And I don't remember specifics, like a specific.
Speaker 4: Time of you know, this was the time that we
Speaker 4: sat down and had to talk that there's these tapes
Speaker 4: and whatnot. But I do remember at a certain age me,
Speaker 4: my brother cousins of us talking about, you know, kill Saul.
Speaker 4: The only reason he's still alive is he supposedly has
Speaker 4: these tapes and he knows who killed John F. Kennedy,
Speaker 4: and you know, they his life's endangered, and the reason
Speaker 4: he does certain things is to so that he's trying
Speaker 4: to protect us from being in danger.
Speaker 5: And so it's kind of like you kind of live
Speaker 5: in a little bit of fear.
Speaker 4: Of something bad could happen based on this knowledge that
Speaker 4: you know, there's powers that be out there that if
Speaker 4: these tapes were to get out, that something could happen,
Speaker 4: or that if he didn't have them.
Speaker 5: That he would be dead.
Speaker 4: As a kid, it's kind of formative, you know, it
Speaker 4: sticks in your head a little.
Speaker 5: Bit and you kind of.
Speaker 4: Keep your head on a swivel, just looking around to
Speaker 4: make sure everything's safe. And then, you know, as I've
Speaker 4: gotten older, I started to look at him different. You know,
Speaker 4: I think I heard his feelings a lot of times
Speaker 4: because I was partial to my other granddad, my granddad
Speaker 4: on the dad's side of the family, because frankly, I
Speaker 4: bought into what was said about it to some degree,
Speaker 4: you know, and there are some truth in everything that said.
Speaker 4: But the more, especially in the last few years, as
Speaker 4: I've looked into it more, and especially in the last
Speaker 4: few weeks, as I've talked to all these people that
Speaker 4: knew him. I've started to understand that kind of the
Speaker 4: assassination and character assassination attempts on people and the media
Speaker 4: and what they can do to people. There was they
Speaker 4: did a lot of that to him. I mean, he
Speaker 4: brought a little bit of it on himself, but there
Speaker 4: was a lot that.
Speaker 6: Lyndon nor the Kennedy's wanted wanted him out talking or
Speaker 6: funding LBJ or involved, and the attack on him was
Speaker 6: brilliant attack on LBJ, and there was no way to
Speaker 6: really get him off without incriminating LBJ.
Speaker 5: So LBJ just kind of left and the.
Speaker 4: Rod So I've you know, I look at it differently now,
Speaker 4: much different lens today than I did even two months.
Speaker 2: Ago, right, And I mean there's a lot to be
Speaker 2: said there, because again it's interesting. I mean, we even
Speaker 2: know that the you know, the Johnson estate through Ladybird
Speaker 2: was still you know, utilizing influence over the media and
Speaker 2: things like that. I mean decades later Johnson's dead in
Speaker 2: what seventy one, I think, but for decades the influence
Speaker 2: would still be there. There was pressures on people not
Speaker 2: to discuss things, media companies, people that weren't connected. So
Speaker 2: I can imagine somebody who did who was in that
Speaker 2: universe would be pressured as well. But these tapes, and
Speaker 2: this is the important thing, right, because these tapes are
Speaker 2: crazy in that I mean, there's a portion here where
Speaker 2: you have a guy like, I don't know, maybe maybe Larry,
Speaker 2: you should explain Cliff Carter for a moment, and we
Speaker 2: should talk about who's on this tape here, because we're
Speaker 2: hearing about your granddad. He's one of the voices on
Speaker 2: the tape. But there's another thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a good idea, Chuck, because one
Speaker 3: thing I would recommend, and I'd recommend this to anybody
Speaker 3: who really wanted to understand the background of this story. Right,
Speaker 3: this story is is really about Billy saul SDS and
Speaker 3: Texas politics and the Democratic National Committee which Johnson set
Speaker 3: up from the Beguinea. There was there was no real
Speaker 3: Democratic National Committee until Johnson or Republic. Johnson came up
Speaker 3: with this concept of collecting money and partiallying it out
Speaker 3: nationwide two different Democratic campaigns, but obviously to the Democrats
Speaker 3: he wanted to give it to, and so he created
Speaker 3: this whole concept of going out and getting big donors,
Speaker 3: kind of bringing them inside the administration, giving them special
Speaker 3: access getting their money, but not necessarily even the LBJ,
Speaker 3: which is kind of different for LBJ, but to the
Speaker 3: DNC as a slush fund as a pack. A lot
Speaker 3: of what we're seeing right now came out of this
Speaker 3: era in time at around nineteen sixty fifty eight to
Speaker 3: sixty and if Billy Solestes played a major role in
Speaker 3: coming up with money to go to the DNC, and
Speaker 3: that was all administered by the head of the DNC,
Speaker 3: who was Cliff Carter. Cliff Carter wasn't really as part
Speaker 3: of the Johnson administration per se. He was Johnson's political network,
Speaker 3: political bag man, if you want to call him. That
Speaker 3: would recommend to anybody a book called Act of Treason
Speaker 3: by Mark North, and Mark actually digs into a huge
Speaker 3: amount of detail in you know, people I think maybe
Speaker 3: think that Billy saw ST's did have a lot of money,
Speaker 3: and he did have a private aircraft, and he did
Speaker 3: loan it to the d n C, and he did
Speaker 3: send money to Washington DC. Mark even found copies of
Speaker 3: you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars sent to the DNC,
Speaker 3: and SD's did have contacts into the Agriculture Department with
Speaker 3: Secretary Freeman, so st was very much embedded in both
Speaker 3: the DNC and the AGG Department, which is the source
Speaker 3: of a lot of the scandals that get talked about,
Speaker 3: and they were there. But Cliff Carter, you need to
Speaker 3: kind of compartmentalize in your mind. Is he's a Johnson
Speaker 3: political aid. He's not so much administration per se. Is
Speaker 3: he's an organizer for Johnson, collect money, disperse money. So
Speaker 3: that's who he really is. And when these when these
Speaker 3: scandals started to emerge circa nineteen sixty one out in
Speaker 3: pay Cooas, it was tremendously embarrassing fort Johnson because there
Speaker 3: are documented connections their letters and yes, he brought sds
Speaker 3: to the inauguration for he and Kennedy and so there's
Speaker 3: you know, there's no doubt about these connections and of
Speaker 3: vests taking advantage of them. He has access to Freeman's
Speaker 3: at and it's embarrassing for JFK. Not I will say,
Speaker 3: not nearly as embarrassing as the Bobby Baker scandal, which
Speaker 3: would come up in sixty three with Johnson. But in
Speaker 3: its day, it was you know, national news. It wasn't
Speaker 3: just Texas. It wastional news. The local newspaper reporter who
Speaker 3: broke the scandal got a Pulitzer for covering the STS
Speaker 3: scandal out in West Texas. So I got to say
Speaker 3: one thing you have to consider in nineteen sixty two,
Speaker 3: you know, sixty one, sixty two into sixty three, ST's
Speaker 3: was a well known national name, probably more so than
Speaker 3: Cliff Carter because Carter is kind of behind the scenes,
Speaker 3: but EST's was very prominent nationwide.
Speaker 2: Right. So these two men that are clearly involved in
Speaker 2: shaping what it is we're dealing with today when it
Speaker 2: comes to the national committees. And you know how they
Speaker 2: created these funds to be able to push them around
Speaker 2: to do things like influence elections in other states and
Speaker 2: stuff like that. The stuff that we see above board today.
Speaker 2: This was just coming into existence at this time. And
Speaker 2: why are we talking about Cli Carter? Well, he's the
Speaker 2: other guy on the phone for this conversation. And I
Speaker 2: don't know if I was Billy Celesti's I might have
Speaker 2: been taping everything, to be honest with you, but it
Speaker 2: seems as though he was, you know, because I wouldn't
Speaker 2: have trusted the circumstance I was in. Again, I'm thinking
Speaker 2: defensively here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Billy sawt in nineteen eighty four, Billy Saw when
Speaker 3: he was making his Grandeur appeal, right, told his lawyer
Speaker 3: Douglas Caddy, that he had taped everything. He never trusted
Speaker 3: any of these people, so he was making tapes all
Speaker 3: the time.
Speaker 2: Right, right, and anyway, So back to you now, you know,
Speaker 2: mister Stevens, I gotta say that this is interesting because
Speaker 2: tell people, I mean, if they haven't heard the tape,
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna give you guys a link to go
Speaker 2: and listen to it for yourselves. There's only one place
Speaker 2: I've seen it now available on the internet. Just a
Speaker 2: little snippet, but you know, kind of describe if you
Speaker 2: wouldn't mind what's on the tape.
Speaker 5: I will, and it's if it's okay.
Speaker 4: I just want to kind of rewind back on a
Speaker 4: couple of things to catch up.
Speaker 5: I've just been making notes.
Speaker 2: Absolutely please do just for.
Speaker 5: The record, LBJ he died in nineteen seventy.
Speaker 2: Three, seventy three, and okay, yeah, and.
Speaker 4: That's important because this tape I believe it was recorded
Speaker 4: in nineteen seventy one, so as you know, a couple
Speaker 4: of years perhaps before LBJ had passed away.
Speaker 2: That's why I'm making up seventy one. Okay, my mistake there,
Speaker 2: I'm thinking seventy one, but it's seventy three that Johnson died.
Speaker 2: In my mistakes.
Speaker 5: Thank you, Yes, sir and Larry, you're the real deal.
Speaker 4: The amount of history and factual information that you have
Speaker 4: is it possibly surmounts to most of the other folks
Speaker 4: that have reached out to me since this, And in
Speaker 4: fact I did not know that basically Johnson and Carter
Speaker 4: created the DNC. I've had several people posting and saying
Speaker 4: and texting, oh my gosh, this kills the DNC. That
Speaker 4: makes more sense now after what you just taught me
Speaker 4: about that. But one thing we're discussing also was how
Speaker 4: all these stories get shut down. And in the seventies,
Speaker 4: at the time of lbj's death, he was worth about
Speaker 4: twenty five million, and to put that into terms today
Speaker 4: that that correlates into probably two hundred and fifty million,
Speaker 4: two hundred and seventy million, such huge. I mean, we
Speaker 4: look at Barack Obama coming out of office, and he's
Speaker 4: worth twenty five million in today's dollars. Well, this would
Speaker 4: be like him coming out and being worth two hundred
Speaker 4: and fifty two hundred and sixty million. My granddad had
Speaker 4: said that he personally gave him approximately ten million over
Speaker 4: the years, and whether that went into it directly to
Speaker 4: his bank account or into you know, funding different folks.
Speaker 4: Either way, there's there's a big legacy and then a
Speaker 4: big pile of money and wealth that was left behind.
Speaker 4: And so Jack Paline was pointed pointed over the Motion
Speaker 4: Picture Association and his job and then he died or
Speaker 4: left that was to protect any motion picture coming out,
Speaker 4: to ensure that nothing would come out against LBJ and
Speaker 4: could harm that reputation and that legacy. And then there's
Speaker 4: also another guy, I think his last name was Johnson
Speaker 4: that was put in with CNN that was overall of
Speaker 4: the media to help protect and cover that up. So
Speaker 4: there were a bunch of different angles put forth to
Speaker 4: try and suppress the truth, just like we've seen.
Speaker 5: In you know, the last decade. But you know, there
Speaker 5: was a lot going on to suppress that.
Speaker 4: And you're right there, there are a bundle of tapes
Speaker 4: out there, and this one is you know, one of
Speaker 4: the most damning, and there's others that I've heard of
Speaker 4: and folks that supposedly have them, but you know, nobody's
Speaker 4: willing to let go of those or share those at
Speaker 4: this point, so I trust they'll come out in time
Speaker 4: be to get to your question, Chuck, about what's on
Speaker 4: the tape. You know, if you'd like, I can play it,
Speaker 4: I can play part of it, or I can just
Speaker 4: fill you guys in on what's on there.
Speaker 5: However you'd like to approach that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, if you're able to play it like nice
Speaker 2: and loud, and we'll hopefully see if people can hear it.
Speaker 2: If not, I can go to the link and play
Speaker 2: it on the show here either way, because I don't
Speaker 2: have a digital copy myself, But go right ahead if
Speaker 2: you want to try and play it. I'll mute up,
Speaker 2: and I'm sure Larry'll mute up and we'll just listen.
Speaker 2: If you want to play it, you have it ready.
Speaker 5: I do.
Speaker 4: And for the viewers, as Larry mentioned, it's super important
Speaker 4: to research and start looking into the names of this
Speaker 4: Cliff Carter and who he is. You can go on
Speaker 4: to Oval office tapes and Spartaca's educational listen to Cliff
Speaker 4: Carter's voice.
Speaker 5: And I know my granddad's voice for sure.
Speaker 4: But when I first had these tapes transcribed, I looked
Speaker 4: up Cliff's voice.
Speaker 5: Just to make sure that it was real and you
Speaker 5: can tell it's the same guy talking.
Speaker 4: But anyways, I'll hit play on it and just tell
Speaker 4: me if y'all can hear it loud enough if it's
Speaker 4: coming through.
Speaker 2: Sure, if you didn't.
Speaker 7: See has on treating.
Speaker 8: Today West I, it's been pretty touch and those situations.
Speaker 8: London and I've had one a few unpleasant words here
Speaker 8: lately over the deal with that he hired Mike Wallace
Speaker 8: to assassinated. It's been sactic in every way, but we've
Speaker 8: lived through this far. I guess we'll continue to do so.
Speaker 8: London should. I'll never pisued that order.
Speaker 7: To Mike.
Speaker 8: But we've had our differences in I'm a true blue
Speaker 8: to Lendon, as I've always been and tried to carry
Speaker 8: out every order that he'd.
Speaker 7: Never given me.
Speaker 8: But this is one or problems never be able to forget.
Speaker 8: And the times that we've had in in Texas. Yeah,
Speaker 8: my embarrassment to Lendon has gotten from Kennedy. I guess
Speaker 8: there wasn't anything else to do.
Speaker 9: But what he did, well, you know London that already
Speaker 9: hit anything was.
Speaker 8: Well, London's kind of person who doesn't want to have anyone.
Speaker 8: He's you know, he's all for London, and.
Speaker 9: That's way pretty much always did for They had meat
Speaker 9: that's on that Henry Marshall Kendan and they just kind
Speaker 9: of blackmailed me to keep my mouth shut. And if
Speaker 9: I hadn't had a bunch of tames that I played
Speaker 9: after I got killed, if you know, seventeen got killed.
Speaker 8: In this situation, very mysterish me h.
Speaker 9: And I've found a lot of time and I've lost
Speaker 9: a lot of money into hurt my fame the whole lot,
Speaker 9: and it's it's.
Speaker 5: Really got me.
Speaker 9: Just discussed it up with London in one way.
Speaker 10: In one way, sorry hard, but.
Speaker 9: I really feel like that in Lendon's hard he fail
Speaker 9: like that he was doing the right thing.
Speaker 8: He felt like that.
Speaker 9: He was a favor of the commons.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 9: I feel like that in his heart he wanted to
Speaker 9: have people that has not. But I don't believe that anything.
Speaker 9: When I heard about the background, would have never let
Speaker 9: me thanking all the killings that he has done. What
Speaker 9: do you think about itself? Well, and you really believe
Speaker 9: it it could have been handled anyway without killing all
Speaker 9: these people who got rid of a kin. If you're
Speaker 9: thinking that one election against him.
Speaker 8: Well, I don't really believe so he really definitely to
Speaker 8: do just that, So there didn't seem to be any
Speaker 8: other way. He I only he regrets a lot of
Speaker 8: the things that he has done. But still it's been.
Speaker 9: About what they want. There less you do appreciate all
Speaker 9: the things that you've done for them.
Speaker 5: Clarishment.
Speaker 9: I appreciate the trusted and you've had any time for
Speaker 9: a long time friends. And I'm just sorry that I've
Speaker 9: embarrassed all my friends, all my friends through this. Oh
Speaker 9: you didn't embarrass me in what I was really afraid
Speaker 9: of my brother job that.
Speaker 8: Got killed, our plaim was.
Speaker 9: Down at Brian the day that Mike Waller's killed or Marshall,
Speaker 9: and I break that's gonna tie him into the same
Speaker 9: and we couldn't afford to.
Speaker 5: In fact, Pam start to write a book.
Speaker 9: From when she she really got scared, when she got anything.
Speaker 8: It was just.
Speaker 2: It was just too scary a deal.
Speaker 9: But anyhow, this this too will pass. Well, it's been
Speaker 9: long long, old Hearney, what do you think about Tepo Bankston, Well,
Speaker 9: the old little great leader that he's been prob one
Speaker 9: of us things that are wrapping out of Texas.
Speaker 8: Of course, she's got a lot lot of river good friends,
Speaker 8: and Linda has been one of his true buddies for
Speaker 8: many many years. With anything that he just have to'll
Speaker 8: be able to see this.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 9: And I just can't believe that Definel banks and has.
Speaker 8: There over the police department that he has.
Speaker 9: You know, he ad buys every year of the sheriff
Speaker 9: as my brand new car, Bill Decker, And I just
Speaker 9: don't see how politically he can get with it that
Speaker 9: nobody will ever understand. In really thirty years, I thought
Speaker 9: that Glennon really had a mission from my higher power
Speaker 9: whose I choose to cald God, to carry out a
Speaker 9: lot of things for the common people. And I really
Speaker 9: believe in his heart that he thought that he was
Speaker 9: destined to.
Speaker 2: Room people.
Speaker 9: How to his size up Glendham Cliff after all these
Speaker 9: years of horror, Well, actually London's uh just been kind
Speaker 9: of going downhill hose politically wise, he's just wore out.
Speaker 8: And uh, I feel like kids.
Speaker 5: Come to his end of its role.
Speaker 8: But all these things has been eating on him for
Speaker 8: all these years and just found taking his course. And
Speaker 8: I feel one who liked.
Speaker 5: Done a lot of good things they love, and he's
Speaker 5: done a.
Speaker 8: Lot of bad things.
Speaker 9: The clear I hate disease and down trying and and
Speaker 9: so this carried and I just hope that you can
Speaker 9: get a hold of yourself and not vice of tored
Speaker 9: anyhow that's going to happen. Let's have a cup of
Speaker 9: coffee and sunday.
Speaker 8: Okay, sounds good?
Speaker 2: Means So, now that is an incredible conversation, which again
Speaker 2: I I don't know if anybody's ever heard that much
Speaker 2: of it publicly even but man, you know you've got
Speaker 2: the the hen Henry Marshall death reference here, which again
Speaker 2: if you watch that Man Who Killed Kennedy episode you
Speaker 2: know about that even, you know, in a cursory sense.
Speaker 2: But also he mentions his uh, Saul's brother, right, he
Speaker 2: mentions he was killed. Now, I don't know he didn't
Speaker 2: implicate anybody directly there, but if it's in this conversation,
Speaker 2: that's another thing to consider. And mister Stevens, you know
Speaker 2: anything about that or is there something to that which
Speaker 2: I just heard?
Speaker 4: You know, It's funny there are so many little trails
Speaker 4: that you could run off on researching this, Like I've
Speaker 4: tried to look up F. O. Bankston and then you know,
Speaker 4: I guess Bill Decker to see, I'm assuming that those
Speaker 4: were actual people and the head of police in Dallas.
Speaker 5: And well somebody.
Speaker 2: Bill Decker was the sheriff of the county there. He
Speaker 2: was the county sheriff at the time Kennedy was assassinated
Speaker 2: by the bike.
Speaker 4: All right, So basically that's like him, I think, telling
Speaker 4: on him that he was involved in it.
Speaker 2: He's in the motor paid, he's in the motorcaid for
Speaker 2: God's sake, Oh my lord.
Speaker 5: So it is a lot.
Speaker 4: I think all these words, little sentences and different things
Speaker 4: probably have more meaning than I know. But guys like
Speaker 4: you can, just like you said, I can kind of
Speaker 4: break this deal apart.
Speaker 5: But with Uncle, I think it's Uncle Bam. I believe
Speaker 5: he died, may have been in a plane crash. I've
Speaker 5: been told before.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, my memory's not that good and I don't
Speaker 4: mean to be disrespectful to my family members have passed away,
Speaker 4: but I.
Speaker 5: Don't recall specifically. Now.
Speaker 4: I also don't believe that it was anything suspicious as
Speaker 4: far as they're.
Speaker 2: Thinking, Oh, that's okay. It's just that since he mentioned
Speaker 2: it in the midst of this conversation. I'm thinking to myself,
Speaker 2: maybe it's got something to do with it. And that's
Speaker 2: the other thing is Cliff Carter doesn't balk during these discussions,
Speaker 2: says himself, Mac Wallace was sent to kill Kennedy. I
Speaker 2: mean in this conversation, and you know, Cliff Carter doesn't go, hey, hey,
Speaker 2: wait a minute, you know that's not right. No, he
Speaker 2: says it himself. And yeah, Larry, I mean, like, try
Speaker 2: and give us a little context here for a lot
Speaker 2: of what you just heard, if you don't mind. And
Speaker 2: then I want to go back to mister Stevens on
Speaker 2: it and get what he knows personally. Again, but I
Speaker 2: did want to ask directly about your uncle there. Look,
Speaker 2: I don't necessarily know how my uncles died either, but
Speaker 2: you know, it's one of those things. But I just
Speaker 2: heard it on there, and I said to myself, is
Speaker 2: this involved in it too? Who knows quite honestly? Or
Speaker 2: did he have a suspicion even if it was a
Speaker 2: plane crash, right, could he have felt like maybe that
Speaker 2: was a warning shot at him? Or who knows? You know,
Speaker 2: I don't necessarily know without being able to speak to
Speaker 2: your granddad myself, right, and hearing this tape, so I
Speaker 2: wouldn't know what was in his mind when he brought
Speaker 2: that up. But Larry, do you have any thoughts on
Speaker 2: what you just heard or have you heard all of
Speaker 2: this before, etc.
Speaker 3: Well, I've heard the fundamentals before. And actually again this
Speaker 3: goes back to Billy Saul's interview with William Ramon for
Speaker 3: the book that was published only in France, by the way,
Speaker 3: and in that I've got notes from the interview and
Speaker 3: he was very straightforward in terms of you know, the murders,
Speaker 3: and he provides some more detail in that. You've always
Speaker 3: got a segment what Carter would have known, what he
Speaker 3: would have told SDEs about any of the murders. But
Speaker 3: I think one thing, and we can confirm Billy Sall
Speaker 3: that did say in the interview that he had talked
Speaker 3: with Carter about the Marshall relate murders at the time.
Speaker 3: And Henry Marshall was actually murdered in nineteen sixty one
Speaker 3: before this whole scandal came out. Now this is earlier
Speaker 3: timeline is important. SDS and the scandal were not really
Speaker 3: in the press at that point in time. Investigations were
Speaker 3: being started within the Department of agriculture because things had
Speaker 3: been pointed out and leases and properties, and that there
Speaker 3: was an investigation going on at the time. Marshall, who
Speaker 3: had signed off on a lot of things that actually
Speaker 3: turned out not to have been there, was killed. So
Speaker 3: if you compartmentalize these murders, and the murders and suicides
Speaker 3: involved people that were in agriculture and in the businesses
Speaker 3: that were Billy Sauw were in, and even the insurance
Speaker 3: side of ensuring those assets. There were not just Marshall,
Speaker 3: but there were other at that point in time, and
Speaker 3: that's pretty well documented because basically when Estes was paroled
Speaker 3: is last time and came out of prison, he decided
Speaker 3: to seek basically an overturn of some of the charges
Speaker 3: against him, even compensation for some things. And he involved
Speaker 3: not only Douglas Caddy, but he got a lot of
Speaker 3: support from Clinton Peoples, who was a Texas ranger that
Speaker 3: had been involved in investigating especially the Marshall murder, and
Speaker 3: People's made a very good case for the murder. And
Speaker 3: based on People's case, the murder, the death came back
Speaker 3: to a grand jury and Billy sol Estes was invited
Speaker 3: to testify and took that point in time to initiate
Speaker 3: this process with Caddy and to jump start the whole thing.
Speaker 3: So I guess in terms of contact we have a
Speaker 3: lot more detail. And this this really all started with
Speaker 3: the murderers out in West Texas, Marshall and the other
Speaker 3: AGG and SDS related business people, so that that part
Speaker 3: almost stands on its own, especially with the investigation that
Speaker 3: People's did, which is well documented. The JFK thing was
Speaker 3: kind of an add on at the last uh. And
Speaker 3: by the way, just for context, and the connection between
Speaker 3: Johnson and Macwallace is well documented. Mac Wallace had worked
Speaker 3: in the AGG department. Johnson kind of had the AGG
Speaker 3: department and his control for a good period of time there.
Speaker 3: And uh, mac Wallace had indeed killed a fellow who
Speaker 3: was competing for the affections of Johnson's sister. And there's
Speaker 3: no doubt about that. Johnson.
Speaker 2: You're talking about Douglas Kinser, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3: Douglas Kinser and Josepha Johnson and Johnson did again the
Speaker 3: strong case that Johnson intervened and interfered with the witnesses
Speaker 3: and comper wise witnesses and Wallace got off. So there's
Speaker 3: a lot of dirtiness even before this begins. But I
Speaker 3: guess what I'm really trying to say that the connection
Speaker 3: between Johnson and Macwallace, for that is well established. The
Speaker 3: connection between SD's Marshall mac Wallace and the murders out
Speaker 3: in West Texas is well established, and that was all
Speaker 3: kind of setting there, and that was kind of the
Speaker 3: basis for this appeal to the Grand Jury that ST's
Speaker 3: launched and offered, offered those tapes that you that are
Speaker 3: being talked about here. He offered all of those tapes
Speaker 3: which would have discussed that dirty business in West Texas
Speaker 3: as part of the deal, and actually got as far
Speaker 3: as the DOJ became involved. The ga DJ got in
Speaker 3: contact with him and even had a meeting with him
Speaker 3: in which he was supposed to turn over tapes and
Speaker 3: other documents, but they would not guarantee immunity. And because
Speaker 3: they would not guarantee immunity, they've met like a motel
Speaker 3: conference room. They met. It's kind of like and at
Speaker 3: the last minute, it's kind of like, unless I have
Speaker 3: written offer of immunity or guarantee of immunity, I'm not
Speaker 3: handing this off. And the whole thing collapsed at that
Speaker 3: point in time. So that's just a little background to separate.
Speaker 3: There's a lot going on with this beyond JFK and
Speaker 3: Carter and Johnson and what may have been going on there,
Speaker 3: right right.
Speaker 2: So, mister Stevens, were you aware of this at the
Speaker 2: time at all or did you become aware of this later?
Speaker 2: Regarding that the whole circumstance that Larry just laid out.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I've learned more and more about it
Speaker 5: over the years, and plot twist to some degree add
Speaker 5: to it.
Speaker 4: So Mac Wallace or Malcolm wall his family has reached
Speaker 4: out to me and they were a little bit shocked,
Speaker 4: but their family stories and family secrets aligned with our
Speaker 4: family stories and family secrets, so at some point they're
Speaker 4: not comfortable. They're like, Shane, if you're still alive in
Speaker 4: a month and a half or so, we'll probably go
Speaker 4: on and talk about it.
Speaker 5: But they had the same.
Speaker 4: Fears, just like you talked about Henry Marshall. For the audience,
Speaker 4: I think it's important for them to know that he
Speaker 4: was found dead on his farm in Robertson County or
Speaker 4: Robinson County, and he had five bullet wounds across his chest.
Speaker 4: He had a contusion to his head, they later exumed
Speaker 4: him from his grave and did a test and they
Speaker 4: found sixteen percent poisoning from carbon monoxide in.
Speaker 5: Him, but that was ruled a suicide. And even j
Speaker 5: Edgar Hoover.
Speaker 4: Who was as corrupt as the day is long and
Speaker 4: was huge part of LBJ and his control and influence,
Speaker 4: he said, I cannot see how a man could shoot
Speaker 4: himself five times with the twenty two long rifle.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's pretty hard to do.
Speaker 4: But the judicial system, the courts, the coroner, everybody had reason.
Speaker 5: I supposed to rule that a suicide.
Speaker 4: And so when Saul got out, one of the things
Speaker 4: out of prison in the eighties one of.
Speaker 5: The things he wanted to do was write the shit there.
Speaker 4: And the spouse of mister Marshall, she was finally able
Speaker 4: to get insurance payout because they wouldn't pay out life
Speaker 4: insurance to her any insurance because it was ruled a suicide.
Speaker 4: But based on the testimony that my granddad gave and
Speaker 4: really common sense.
Speaker 5: We know that it wasn't a suicide. It was overturned.
Speaker 4: But yeah, so everything Larry's just said again factual history.
Speaker 5: Anybody can look it up.
Speaker 4: There's nothing conspiratorial or questionable about anything that Larry said.
Speaker 5: It's all just plain simple facts.
Speaker 2: Oh no, I do my very best to not come
Speaker 2: on here with a lot of like if I say
Speaker 2: something that's speculative, believe me, I'd say this is all speculation.
Speaker 2: When Larry speaks, you don't hear me qualifying what he's saying,
Speaker 2: do you know?
Speaker 5: Business?
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, I wish I to get offered a little
Speaker 3: bit more. I almost had a chance to. When the
Speaker 3: martial death was being investigated by the FBI, a family
Speaker 3: friend of ours named Jelly Brice actually went down to
Speaker 3: West longtime very famous FBI officer and crack pistol shot
Speaker 3: went down to Pey Coast to investigate, and he said,
Speaker 3: actually asked my brother if he wanted to come along,
Speaker 3: because he thought it was really strange and he was
Speaker 3: really going to look into it. My brother told me,
Speaker 3: you know, I really really missed going on that trip.
Speaker 3: I should have gone down there and hear what he
Speaker 3: had to say about it. But when he came back,
Speaker 3: he was just shaking his head kind of like no, no, no,
Speaker 3: that doesn't.
Speaker 2: Stick, doesn't work anyway. But getting back to the direct
Speaker 2: connection here, a lot of things get opened up, you know,
Speaker 2: because of this audio if you think about it, and again, look,
Speaker 2: it's not even a definitive. This is Cliff Carter saying this.
Speaker 2: This is you know, your granddad saying this. And you
Speaker 2: know what knowledge did they have or what knowledge were
Speaker 2: they given to is yet another story and you got
Speaker 2: to very carefully examine that, especially considering we don't have
Speaker 2: these people to talk to anymore. Right, we can't cross
Speaker 2: examine this exactly. What all we can do now is
Speaker 2: to look back and try and put the pieces together.
Speaker 2: And these are some incredible pieces. And meanwhile, you're telling
Speaker 2: me there's a there's bundles of audio out there, and
Speaker 2: one might ask why why now? Let's say, why now
Speaker 2: would be the best time or do you think it
Speaker 2: was a good time to finally surface this because obviously
Speaker 2: it's existed since nineteen seventy one, this tape, And why
Speaker 2: is now a good time? I mean Granddad's been gone,
Speaker 2: like you said, more than a decade, right, so right,
Speaker 2: you know why now? Exactly?
Speaker 5: Well, the timing of it is fascinating, and I'll fill
Speaker 5: you in on the detail.
Speaker 4: But really, even just today, and do you guys think
Speaker 4: about it, You're in the middle in amidst a big
Speaker 4: part of American history, right.
Speaker 5: Smack dab in the middle of it.
Speaker 4: Because if that tape is true, and if you know,
Speaker 4: we find out from the release of the JFK files
Speaker 4: what I'm assuming may be in there, then it says
Speaker 4: so much about what our countries come from and the
Speaker 4: deceit that we've endured as an American public. But just today,
Speaker 4: there's a lady Anna Paulina that's heading up the task force,
Speaker 4: and she says, based on what she's seen, there were
Speaker 4: two shooters. And then based on this tape and based
Speaker 4: on what I've heard little family secrets, it sounds like
Speaker 4: there was always more than one shooter. And again common
Speaker 4: sense leads us to that to some degree as well.
Speaker 5: But are the timing you know, I've.
Speaker 4: It was kind of put on me to take the
Speaker 4: real tapes, the original tapes from the family, and I'm
Speaker 4: the oldest grandson, so I suppose it makes sense. But
Speaker 4: then once I converted it over to digital, which that's
Speaker 4: kind of a funny story in itself, and I've distributed
Speaker 4: multiple copies of that out to.
Speaker 5: Everybody to hold on to.
Speaker 4: And that was just kind of the same concept as
Speaker 4: my granddad if you know something happens to these tapes
Speaker 4: or to me, well, at least there's a copy of
Speaker 4: it that survives, it can be released in time.
Speaker 5: To share the truth.
Speaker 4: And it's probably to some folks, especially outside of this
Speaker 4: LBJA ECO system, like they probably think it's crazy to
Speaker 4: be afraid or concerned about your Locke being in danger
Speaker 4: sixty years after something happened. But I can tell you
Speaker 4: that that fear has been real within the family and
Speaker 4: nobody really wanted to go about releasing it or.
Speaker 5: Taking that risk.
Speaker 4: And Frankly, the only times that I've pulled this tape
Speaker 4: out the digital recording to let people hear it were
Speaker 4: you know, a few.
Speaker 5: Friends or folks that were fighting for the right reason.
Speaker 4: So you know, at one point I went to around
Speaker 4: table with President Trump and the schedulers supposedly had let
Speaker 4: him listen to it. I let Don Junior listen to it.
Speaker 4: I've let Ken Paxson listen to it. Several key people
Speaker 4: that are fighting, you know, the goodbye from Frankly, the
Speaker 4: fight that I think JFK.
Speaker 5: Was fighting, and.
Speaker 4: Ultimately I wanted to warn them that they they could
Speaker 4: be in the crosshairs. And it turns out. Obviously we've
Speaker 4: seen what happened. Because ultimately, if they can't get people
Speaker 4: to back down, slow down, stop attacking what a lot
Speaker 4: of power and wealth has been built off of, they'll
Speaker 4: do whatever it takes to get rid of them.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well there you see. Now, you and I could
Speaker 2: disagree on a lot of steps along the way to
Speaker 2: that statement, but that's that's the truth of it is that,
Speaker 2: you know, if the powers that be don't want you
Speaker 2: to speak or don't want certain facts to be known,
Speaker 2: there is no end to the amount of damage they're
Speaker 2: willing to do or the amount of death they're willing
Speaker 2: to cause in their own cause. You know, that's something
Speaker 2: I think you and I would absolutely agree on, regardless
Speaker 2: of politics, regardless of them. I mean, this is just
Speaker 2: the way of the world. You know, if you need
Speaker 2: to be shut down by those who have money and power,
Speaker 2: you will be. I mean, it's just that simple.
Speaker 5: That should scare every American, whether you're a Democrat, Republican, libertarian, centrist.
Speaker 5: If our government and powers that be are more powerful
Speaker 5: than our president and can hide and run covert operations
Speaker 5: that none of us and even the President note don't
Speaker 5: know about, that's a problem that's not a real functioning democracy.
Speaker 2: Right, Absolutely true. So let's go a little further here.
Speaker 2: I mean, what what else in this I mean outside
Speaker 2: of the grand statement you just made. And I'm glad
Speaker 2: you did, uh, you know, because you're basically saying, look,
Speaker 2: this needs to be done. You're taking it upon yourself.
Speaker 2: You realize that there's some risk of doing this. Uh.
Speaker 2: And I'm really grateful that you're sharing even this part
Speaker 2: of it with me, uh and and with with a
Speaker 2: you know, those listening and Larry. I mean, this is
Speaker 2: a really this is a really a great privilege to
Speaker 2: be able to hear these things and to uh to
Speaker 2: get a look at, you know, a real intimate look
Speaker 2: quite honestly at something that has been just sort of discussed,
Speaker 2: just sort of floated out there, uh, in the past.
Speaker 2: And I'm really really grateful. I want to thank you
Speaker 2: for doing that first of all, before I forget. But uh,
Speaker 2: you know, but but what what is it that you know,
Speaker 2: the rest of the story that needs to be told?
Speaker 2: What do you what do you think it is here?
Speaker 3: Well, now, I think if you look at.
Speaker 4: The overall case, the overall wealth, it's concerning that we've got, you.
Speaker 5: Know, monuments and highways.
Speaker 4: And you name it named after an individual who theoretically,
Speaker 4: based on this tape and based on some other evidence,
Speaker 4: had a president of the United States killed essentially a
Speaker 4: coup of taking over from them. So grasping that and
Speaker 4: then essentially looking at the ripple effects because if that's
Speaker 4: the case, it wasn't just LBJ involved, I mean that
Speaker 4: means Hoover was involved.
Speaker 5: Now that means you've got CIA involvement. That means you've
Speaker 5: got at.
Speaker 4: Beyond that means you have the sheriff have in Dallas
Speaker 4: and their police department involved.
Speaker 5: And then what happened with those people, Well, all.
Speaker 4: These names that have been alleged to be involved, mine O, Dulls,
Speaker 4: you name it. They've risen to massive levels of wealth
Speaker 4: and power. And there's some folks that say that we've
Speaker 4: elected very few presidents, truly elected them since the sixties
Speaker 4: that you know, for the most part, they've controlled the
Speaker 4: elections and we've just kind of been puppets to whoever
Speaker 4: they choose to put in power. And they've made massive
Speaker 4: amounts of wealth and money off of the taxpayers backs.
Speaker 4: So that's been going on for sixty years. The implications
Speaker 4: are huge, but we also have the chance right now
Speaker 4: to clean it up and fix that and talk about
Speaker 4: an amazing era going forward of what this country could
Speaker 4: look like in the level of prosperity that the American
Speaker 4: people could achieve.
Speaker 2: Well, fair enough, is there anything else that we need
Speaker 2: to sort of wrap around on this, Larry, you think
Speaker 2: anything else that we should mention here in fairness to
Speaker 2: make sure the context is all there? I absolutely leave
Speaker 2: with you because I think this is you know again,
Speaker 2: it's a remarkable piece of tape, and there's more. But nonetheless,
Speaker 2: I mean, what do you think, Larry.
Speaker 3: Well again, some context, because we already like context going
Speaker 3: all the way back to this period of time nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety nine, nineteen eighty eight when I first learned of this. Actually,
Speaker 3: there is a lot that could be done in terms
Speaker 3: of investigating Johnson, as you know, check in my book
Speaker 3: Someone would Have Talked twenty ten, I lay out three
Speaker 3: chapters that present Johnson as an accessory perfectly honest, I
Speaker 3: still have a lot of tactical and logistics problems seen
Speaker 3: as him as the only person involved in this, like
Speaker 3: he and Cliff Carter and Mac Wallace did this with
Speaker 3: their own initiative by themselves. But in the book, I
Speaker 3: lay out the case against both Cliff Carter and Lyndon Johnson,
Speaker 3: why they would have participated, why they would have been involved,
Speaker 3: how Johnson would have been connected to the rest of
Speaker 3: the conspiracy, even the timeline, and I think that's important.
Speaker 3: So I guess what I'm really saying is, if we
Speaker 3: can get some more documents, there are things that we
Speaker 3: already know that are suggestive about Cliff Carter's involvement, not
Speaker 3: with mac Wallace, I mean, and by the way, supposedly
Speaker 3: in the scenario from Billy Saw, mack Wallace was shooting
Speaker 3: from the grassy knoll. He was not shooting from the
Speaker 3: book depository. We should probably get this on record. The
Speaker 3: scenario that I had in my notes and that he
Speaker 3: told Ramond was that mac Wallace was shooting from the
Speaker 3: grassy hole. Mac Wallace or Cliff Carter had hired Jack Ruby,
Speaker 3: who had hired Lee Harvey oswall as kind of a
Speaker 3: gun for hire, and he was shooting from the Texas
Speaker 3: School Book Depository. So there were two shooters. But that's
Speaker 3: the scenario that's presented that way. But there aside from that,
Speaker 3: there are a lot of things that Cliff Carter did
Speaker 3: in regard to the trip to Dallas, his communications with
Speaker 3: Jack Peter Bow. Jack Peter Bow was the agg Department
Speaker 3: aid from the White House to actually run the motorcade
Speaker 3: and did a lot of details. People heard from Pewter
Speaker 3: Bowl and they thought it was the Secret Service, and
Speaker 3: when secret Service was questioned, they lost in The Secret
Speaker 3: Service chief of the motorcade said no, that wasn't me,
Speaker 3: that was Peter Bow. He put the cars in that sequence,
Speaker 3: he moved the motorcycles. He You know, we have people
Speaker 3: that say at the very last minute the motorcycles were
Speaker 3: stripped off the rear of the President's car by somebody
Speaker 3: who came over from the Vice President's vehicle. There. This
Speaker 3: has been explained in the past because of Johnson trying
Speaker 3: to minimize Kennedy's political impact in Texas. That's a longstanding argument.
Speaker 3: But I guess, guess kind of to wrap up your question,
Speaker 3: there is a lot of room. We already know a
Speaker 3: lot that would have made Cliff Carter suspicious and Lyndon
Speaker 3: Johnson suspicious before the fact and after the fact. So
Speaker 3: there's a lot of room to investigate their involvement. And
Speaker 3: I had thought from the very beginning. This is even
Speaker 3: with the had airing the tape, hearing it described to me,
Speaker 3: and with what I found out about Cliff Carter and
Speaker 3: the motorcade and the Texas trip, there was ample reason
Speaker 3: to be suspicious of he and Johnson. So with that
Speaker 3: a start as a starting point, it would be fascinating.
Speaker 3: I don't know if anybody what consmirms me about the
Speaker 3: documents is nobody really investigated Cliff Carter and Lyndon Johnson,
Speaker 3: even though as during the Garrison investigation there were claims
Speaker 3: that were made in Worshington d C. By John Roselli
Speaker 3: and remarks that he passed on up the channel. Johnson
Speaker 3: was scared even in nineteen sixty nine that people were
Speaker 3: coming forward and we're going to accuse him of the crime.
Speaker 3: And we've got all of that documented too. So there's
Speaker 3: a large story here for Johnson and for Cliff Carter.
Speaker 3: I just I don't know how much more we can
Speaker 3: get out of the documents, but it might be possible
Speaker 3: to get some more secondary testimony and an investigation of it.
Speaker 3: And I, for one, I agree with point that Linda
Speaker 3: Johnson was intensely corrupt, and I would say it is
Speaker 3: it is very unsatisfying to have his name on so
Speaker 3: many things with how corrupt we know he now was.
Speaker 3: And it galls me to hear those guys talking on
Speaker 3: the tape about Linda Johnson like having good intentions and
Speaker 3: will follow him to the end regardless. It's kind of like,
Speaker 3: you guys, listen to yourself talking and you know he
Speaker 3: killed people. What's going on with that tape? It's like,
Speaker 3: how can they even be talking that way about Linda Johnson. Oh,
Speaker 3: I'm I'm tied to him to the end. I'm always
Speaker 3: going to be his man. It's like, what the heck?
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's something, there's something really special there because again,
Speaker 2: you know this guy whenever Johnson comes up in discourse
Speaker 2: now right, the civil Rights Bill? Uh, you know he
Speaker 2: was a good guy, right, he's the uh. And I'm like,
Speaker 2: how is it that these historians, I mean, there's I'm
Speaker 2: not even gonna name the guy who's got like three
Speaker 2: volumes out there on Lyndon Vans Johnson, right, who mentions
Speaker 2: zero of his corruption, I'm pretty sure throughout his books
Speaker 2: because all he does is talk about, you know, this
Speaker 2: Greek president that came up at a time of tragedy
Speaker 2: and had to inherit all the mistakes of the Kennedys.
Speaker 2: And I'm going, man, you know, are you not looking
Speaker 2: at the whole of the of the man here? Are
Speaker 2: you not looking at the rest of the story. It
Speaker 2: kills me?
Speaker 3: You know, And we even note check we eveund know
Speaker 3: this is historical record. Manchester did this. We would know.
Speaker 3: Johnson spent the whole night after the assassination at home
Speaker 3: at his house talking to his political coronis about exactly
Speaker 3: how they were going to take over the Kennedy agenda. Yeah,
Speaker 3: we've got people being interviewed about how Johnson is list
Speaker 3: literally going to lift that and make it his own.
Speaker 2: Yep. Absolutely, And you know, just I guess as a
Speaker 2: final thought here, unless you've got something else that you
Speaker 2: think we missed, mister Stevens, I mean, what are your
Speaker 2: thoughts about that? I mean, that's That's really the thing
Speaker 2: that's incredible here is that still to this day, right
Speaker 2: LBJ is this celebrated figure. And you know, look, we
Speaker 2: should be honest about what it is we're looking at here,
Speaker 2: and we should get honest about who it is has
Speaker 2: been in charge, as you and I both agree, But
Speaker 2: I mean, for God's sake, you know, something needs to
Speaker 2: be done here about balancing the record at least, don't
Speaker 2: you think you know I do.
Speaker 4: And you know, another thing I was just thinking of
Speaker 4: as far as you know, a lot of folks not
Speaker 4: watching the negative comments off.
Speaker 5: You know, Saul's a con.
Speaker 4: Man and this is a generated and you know all
Speaker 4: these things. But you know, perhaps we can pretend that
Speaker 4: that is part of it. But if you're on that
Speaker 4: side of it, just pretend, try pretending that it's real,
Speaker 4: and then start looking in to all of it, like, okay,
Speaker 4: well if this is real, then the Warren Commission was
Speaker 4: a sham, all right, Well who's on the Warren Commission?
Speaker 4: And then start looking too all those people and I guarantee,
Speaker 4: I mean, it's a whole web that somebody with the
Speaker 4: you know, right amount of time, resources and access could
Speaker 4: dig into and you know, figure out so much about
Speaker 4: our political past and the corruption and who was corrupt
Speaker 4: and who was on the take.
Speaker 5: And you know, I think a lot of it was.
Speaker 4: JEdgar Hoover had tapes and information on so many people
Speaker 4: and they'd set them up. But then they worked together,
Speaker 4: him and LBJ and LBJ, even my granddad.
Speaker 5: He was most fascinated with LBJ.
Speaker 4: He had seen plenty of wealth, he'd seen plenty of power,
Speaker 4: but he had never seen anybody wheel power like LBJ.
Speaker 5: And he was fascinated by it. He was enamored by it.
Speaker 5: And you know, obviously it ended up negatively impacting him
Speaker 5: and his leg.
Speaker 4: See, so I think there's a lot more to be
Speaker 4: unpacked with it. This is kind of the tip of
Speaker 4: the Osburg and I hope you guys can run with
Speaker 4: it and take it because y'all are both highly educated
Speaker 4: on this topic and had the passion for it.
Speaker 5: So I'd love to follow up with y'all and see
Speaker 5: where it goes.
Speaker 2: Well, absolutely, I mean we I know I'm going to
Speaker 2: follow up on this, and I'm going to encourage others
Speaker 2: to do the same, especially some friends I have in Texas.
Speaker 2: And I'm really glad that Larry got involved in this.
Speaker 2: And just for the record, somebody noted to me on
Speaker 2: Skype and I think they didn't hear me earlier when
Speaker 2: I said, because they heard Bill Decker mentioned on the tape.
Speaker 2: Bill Decker is actually I said he was in the motorcade.
Speaker 2: But let me let me clarify that for you. He's
Speaker 2: in the lead car in the motorcade. He's in the
Speaker 2: pilot car of the motorcade. Mister Stevens. Okay, wow, that's wow.
Speaker 2: That's he's in. He's there with Jesse Curry. Jesse Curry's
Speaker 2: on the radio if you've heard the radio transmissions. But
Speaker 2: in that car with him is Sheriff Bill Decker. And
Speaker 2: the majority of the first statements taken by witnesses that
Speaker 2: I used to have to go through when I was
Speaker 2: trying to determine, you know, exactly what happened what witness
Speaker 2: saw what are referred to as Decker exhibits because they
Speaker 2: were taken by the Sheriff's department. Okay, and they're literally
Speaker 2: if you if you even attempt to enter him into
Speaker 2: into evidence somewhere, they're referred to as Decker exhibits. I'm
Speaker 2: not sure if the all.
Speaker 3: The depositions were taken in the Sheriff's department.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go. Yeah, I'm not making it. To
Speaker 2: see Larry's verifying what I'm saying. I'm not making it up.
Speaker 2: This is what I know. I dug through so well.
Speaker 5: And then Larry's one thing that I did, like our
Speaker 5: little family.
Speaker 4: Side of it was supposedly at Matt Wallace was in
Speaker 4: the repository, is what we've always heard, and there was
Speaker 4: a fingerprint of his. I've got a video that was
Speaker 4: recorded and it was one of the former best fingerprint
Speaker 4: ID guys out there, and he says it's a match
Speaker 4: of that.
Speaker 5: And then the other thing.
Speaker 4: That we've always thought or been told was that the
Speaker 4: shooter wasn't actually on the grassy knowle, that the shooter
Speaker 4: was behind a fence.
Speaker 5: At the edge of the grassy nole. Was the second shooter.
Speaker 5: And then there's a slight possibility I've heard, and I
Speaker 5: don't think it's from my granddad, was from one of
Speaker 5: his friends, that there was potentially a third one. But
Speaker 5: I don't have anything to really go off on that.
Speaker 2: Well a couple of things. That fingerprint has been since
Speaker 2: disputed quite well by a better finger and believe it
Speaker 2: or not, I tracked through to figure out who paid
Speaker 2: the guy that you're talking about that looked at that fingerprint.
Speaker 2: I went through all of that. It's actually a friend
Speaker 2: of mine that wrote that check that. It's it's really interesting,
Speaker 2: but you know, he he was mistaken, it seems like.
Speaker 2: But even so, that doesn't put Macwallace out of play.
Speaker 2: It just kind of puts him away from that fingerprint
Speaker 2: in my mind now and there. And there's a pretty
Speaker 2: good book out there called Faustian Bargain if you ever
Speaker 2: want to pick it up, that actually contains an appendix
Speaker 2: with that evidence in it.
Speaker 11: Uh.
Speaker 2: And it was something that an author named Joan Mellon did.
Speaker 2: She hired people to do it and compared it with
Speaker 2: Macwallace's military record fingerprints.
Speaker 4: So I end upending on how far I want to
Speaker 4: go with this deal and how many of these I
Speaker 4: want to do.
Speaker 5: I probably need to start research and I'm learning all that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I'm just I'm just letting you know that
Speaker 2: there's a dispute on that. But again, I would place
Speaker 2: that shooter not on the knowle anyway. I would place
Speaker 2: that shooter somewhere near a fence, like you're saying, based
Speaker 2: on the work of forensics people who have who have
Speaker 2: guessed as to where the trajectory would have come from
Speaker 2: if people had done the right investigation in the first place,
Speaker 2: you know. And here's where I have to mention somebody
Speaker 2: like Sherry Feaster And I'm sorry, go ahead, Larry, you
Speaker 2: were going to say something.
Speaker 3: I'm just going to say, be prepared to devote a
Speaker 3: good time. I think I probably look over. I've probably
Speaker 3: got a six inch stack of papers dealing with that
Speaker 3: fingerprint in the TSBD and how it came to attention,
Speaker 3: and the arguments for it and the arguments against it,
Speaker 3: and and oh he only he only identified the fingerprint
Speaker 3: after somebody told him about a damage to the hand.
Speaker 3: That would I mean, But the point is, there are
Speaker 3: all I guess this is what I was referring to,
Speaker 3: are the notes from Ramon's interview with Billy Saw as
Speaker 3: to what he said then, and then you know that.
Speaker 3: So that's way back in time. But absolutely the debate
Speaker 3: about the fingerprint pros and cons is a deep one,
Speaker 3: involving multiple print experts, and you know, good luck. That's
Speaker 3: kind of like I hope you gained back the time
Speaker 3: I lost working on it. But regardless of that, one
Speaker 3: of the things we had discussed is irrespective of that,
Speaker 3: I would say, irrespect of Eve, even Macwallace, Prince or
Speaker 3: in the school Book Depository or whatever, there are things
Speaker 3: by themselves to connect Carter and Johnson even without that,
Speaker 3: and directly connect Carter. I'm talking about things relating to
Speaker 3: the motorcade, things recating to the plan, things relating to
Speaker 3: Johnson that night. Even if Macwallace was not part of
Speaker 3: the equation, there's a case to be made against Lyndon
Speaker 3: Johnson as a prime suspect, regardless of that. So wherever
Speaker 3: you get to on their fingerprints or whoever said, well,
Speaker 3: I think there would be a case there regardless.
Speaker 2: And here's the other thing, your granddad. And this is
Speaker 2: absolutely not meaning any sort of offense, but here's the thing.
Speaker 2: Your granddad is in no way claiming to have been there.
Speaker 2: So what he would have gotten would have been secondhand.
Speaker 2: But in his case, it's a hell of a second
Speaker 2: hand because you know.
Speaker 4: He said his deal was he was supposedly supposedly at
Speaker 4: the White House with Cliff Carter, mac Wallace and LBJ
Speaker 4: when LJ said we're.
Speaker 5: Going to move forward with this, right, And so yeah,
Speaker 5: he wasn't. There wasn't a part of it.
Speaker 4: Didn't help in the planning, and he took that to
Speaker 4: his grave that he was not a part of killing him.
Speaker 4: He actually liked Kennedy. He's got a thing that was,
Speaker 4: you know, signed to him from Kennedy.
Speaker 5: Right, So it wasn't it wasn't necessarily his doing, but
Speaker 5: he knew that he had get killed regardless.
Speaker 4: But I think big picture, a lot of folks can
Speaker 4: get hung up on you know, was Mac him, the
Speaker 4: repository was Mac?
Speaker 5: There was Mac, This was LBJ involved. The big picture.
Speaker 4: One thing that we can all agree on is that,
Speaker 4: you know, our senses, like our God given sense, tells
Speaker 4: us that we did not get the full truth, that
Speaker 4: there were a lot of things left out. We've been
Speaker 4: lied to. And I think that's the common thread that
Speaker 4: makes this whole mystery so fascinating to people, is what
Speaker 4: is the truth? Because we know damn good and well
Speaker 4: we didn't get the truth, no doubt about that exactly.
Speaker 2: So with that, I don't think you want to put
Speaker 2: out contacts or anything for people to get a hold
Speaker 2: of you, mister Stevens, right, and not directly anyway, No, I.
Speaker 4: Do, just because the first time I did this was
Speaker 4: everybody started reaching out to my different businesses and tracking
Speaker 4: me down through different means and avenues. So I just
Speaker 4: set up a couple of things. So one of them
Speaker 4: is on Twitter and it's just Shane Stevens TX SO
Speaker 4: SAH and E st E V E N S t
Speaker 4: X and then I set up a little website and
Speaker 4: it's just Stevens s T e v e N S
Speaker 4: Team six and that's the number six. So Stevens Team
Speaker 4: six dot com. And please don't do go reach up
Speaker 4: the businesses. Everybody kind of freaks them out. So just
Speaker 4: if you need to contact me, contact me.
Speaker 2: Through that, all right. So that's what we'll look at,
Speaker 2: is the Shane Stevens t.
Speaker 5: X on Twitter right, yes on X now.
Speaker 2: I X right Twitter X. I keep doing that. Sorry
Speaker 2: for years I was on Twitter. Now I'm on X.
Speaker 2: Excuse me. But yeah, I'll actually go ahead and I
Speaker 2: haven't made contact with you there, but I'm gonna do
Speaker 2: that right now. And uh certainly I you know, bother
Speaker 2: him through that exactly. And the other one is Stevens
Speaker 2: Team you said.
Speaker 4: Yes, Stevens Team six, so S T e v e
Speaker 4: N S T e A M and the number six
Speaker 4: dot com.
Speaker 2: Excellent. All right, Well we will leave it at that,
Speaker 2: and who knows, maybe I'll ask you to do a
Speaker 2: follow up on this. I'm sure a lot of questions
Speaker 2: are going to come up when the podcast comes out
Speaker 2: and all that, Larry, is there anything else we need
Speaker 2: to say before we're all said and done here today.
Speaker 3: No, I think that really covers it. I really appreciate that.
Speaker 3: A great discussion, and just let me know as soon
Speaker 3: as this is available online, so I want to do
Speaker 3: a blog on it myself, so that'll that's great.
Speaker 2: I enjoyed it absolutely, and I think we did it
Speaker 2: a little different than you might have heard it elsewhere,
Speaker 2: but that is what we do here. So remember this, guys,
Speaker 2: I am merely O'Kelly, and all of you are indeed
Speaker 2: the effect. And I'll put the links in with the
Speaker 2: show notes so you can go ahead and follow Shane
Speaker 2: on Twitter. Obviously, I'll put Larry's links in there too,
Speaker 2: and you'll be able to follow up all you want.
Speaker 2: And at all times I ask you go ahead and
Speaker 2: do your own research check into this, and at all times.
Speaker 12: The Michelle dot com radio network word did you expressed?
Speaker 2: My caller?
Speaker 3: Schools?
Speaker 2: There anyone else who happens to get on the air.
Speaker 2: Jelly dot com do not necessarily reflected the views of
Speaker 2: the Jelly dot Com or junko Jelly, and we are
Speaker 2: not responsible for any stupidity which might ensue.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
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