WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.839 --> 00:00:12.839 Get ready. 2 00:00:13.039 --> 00:00:17.079 February eleven, twenty twenty five, allegedly according to that thing 3 00:00:17.120 --> 00:00:19.399 we call a calendar, And yeah, this is the show 4 00:00:19.399 --> 00:00:21.120 you were looking for. How do I know it because 5 00:00:21.160 --> 00:00:25.120 you found it the o'celly effect. Anyway, Look, it is 6 00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:28.839 a Tuesday, right and tearesday it is. And it's funny 7 00:00:29.399 --> 00:00:33.600 because normally I've had Larry Hancock on lately on Wednesdays. 8 00:00:33.640 --> 00:00:37.280 But this is a special episode anyway, for more than 9 00:00:37.320 --> 00:00:40.479 one reason. And in case you haven't guessed yet, yes, 10 00:00:40.600 --> 00:00:42.719 Larry Hancock is back with me. Of course, an author 11 00:00:42.759 --> 00:00:45.520 who takes up a lot of space on my bookshelf. 12 00:00:46.039 --> 00:00:48.399 I've said this before, and he doesn't just take up 13 00:00:48.439 --> 00:00:52.280 space there. And we're not today gonna talk about the 14 00:00:52.280 --> 00:00:56.439 new book on Lee Harvey Oswald, not at all. In fact, 15 00:00:56.759 --> 00:01:00.560 we're gonna talk about something that I really was unsure 16 00:01:00.600 --> 00:01:02.719 we were gonna end up getting to. But then I 17 00:01:02.799 --> 00:01:07.480 saw on Instagram and caught up later that maybe somebody 18 00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:10.400 had made an appearance on the Alex Jones Show that 19 00:01:10.560 --> 00:01:13.359 had something to do with one of the well more 20 00:01:13.439 --> 00:01:19.959 discussed characters in the JFK case. Okay, and not necessarily 21 00:01:20.640 --> 00:01:22.359 the first name that you would think of on this 22 00:01:22.439 --> 00:01:26.200 show for sure, but definitely somebody tied to well, let's 23 00:01:26.239 --> 00:01:32.200 spoil it a little bit, the universe of LBJ. Anyway, 24 00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:35.560 before I go any further into the discussion, let's see 25 00:01:35.560 --> 00:01:37.840 how Larry Hancock is, because he's with me tonight and 26 00:01:37.879 --> 00:01:40.959 we're going to actually team up sort of to do 27 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:44.560 an interview with a really unique guy that I'm real 28 00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:47.799 happy to have on the show who is related to 29 00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:51.799 one of those people who was in that Johnson universe 30 00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:56.000 and Hm is he the guy who was working with 31 00:01:56.079 --> 00:01:59.519 him in the Oval office? No, anyway, maybe it goes 32 00:01:59.560 --> 00:02:02.359 a little d deeper, maybe a dozen't. You got to 33 00:02:02.359 --> 00:02:05.480 see for yourself, Larry. How you doing tonight, Sarah? 34 00:02:06.359 --> 00:02:08.719 I'm doing good, Chuck. And as I was just saying, 35 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:12.680 this show has taken me back, like almost thirty years 36 00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:15.919 to the late nineties when I was working all things Texas, 37 00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:19.319 and it's like it's been a great opportunity for me 38 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:23.360 to try to recover some long varied memories, right. 39 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:25.360 And you know, I'm struggling in my head to figure 40 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:28.479 out the proper way to introduce the man that's with 41 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:32.599 us today because he's an interesting guy and like, just 42 00:02:32.599 --> 00:02:35.759 just talking to him a little bit off air. It 43 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:39.199 has been interesting for me. I'm very curious about this 44 00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:41.719 audio that came out. I mean, perhaps you and I 45 00:02:41.759 --> 00:02:45.199 should talk about that real fast, because I wasn't even 46 00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:47.840 aware of that audio and you passed it over to me, 47 00:02:48.520 --> 00:02:51.159 and I said, WHOA, how did I miss this? And 48 00:02:51.520 --> 00:02:55.360 I did. I was busy with other things, and I 49 00:02:55.439 --> 00:02:57.159 was like, WHOA, wait a minute, how did I miss this? 50 00:02:57.800 --> 00:03:03.159 It was literally marked as a confession once again regarding 51 00:03:03.199 --> 00:03:07.240 the JFK assassination. And maybe you could help me set 52 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:09.520 this up just a little bit, because I think it 53 00:03:09.879 --> 00:03:12.560 requires some setup before we let this gentleman speak for 54 00:03:12.639 --> 00:03:18.039 himself about this tape. It's wild, though, go ahead, ry. 55 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:21.319 This was an area that got a lot of discussion, 56 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:26.479 as I stay, starting in the late nineties. Probably what 57 00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:29.800 really brought it to more general attention is Billy saw 58 00:03:30.039 --> 00:03:35.000 SDS did an interview with a French journalist, William Ramond, 59 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:39.680 and that interview was circulated. I got a copy of it, 60 00:03:41.159 --> 00:03:44.759 an English translation of the interview, and in it, Billy 61 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:49.599 Saalest was talking about the involvement of Linda Johnson and 62 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:52.240 Cliff Carter in a series of murders out in West 63 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:56.759 Texas and that that really surfaced this within the assassination 64 00:03:56.919 --> 00:04:00.759 rechurch community. It became a big, big deal for two 65 00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:02.800 or three years, a lot of discussion, of course, of 66 00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:06.240 Johnson had been discussed as a as a suspect for 67 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:10.199 since day one. You know, when I told Jane when 68 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:13.520 I first started working in Texas, it's like everybody I 69 00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:16.560 talked to, all the Techans, Texans said they assumed it 70 00:04:16.600 --> 00:04:20.199 was Johnson because nobody trusted him about anything, and it 71 00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:22.720 was just kind of like the assumption he must have 72 00:04:22.759 --> 00:04:26.040 had something to do with it. So, but it's that's 73 00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:30.040 almost three decades, you know that that's a long time ago. 74 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:33.040 But it was a topic of a great discussion for 75 00:04:33.240 --> 00:04:37.240 two or three years, and then Billy sol Estes published 76 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:41.120 his own book. I think after maybe Romone did not 77 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:43.839 give him the kind of money that he was expecting, 78 00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:47.040 as I recall from one conversation and that you know 79 00:04:47.079 --> 00:04:50.639 that carried it forward. But it's not been you know, 80 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:53.959 it was as this these things do they they come 81 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:56.000 and go. So it was a very hot topic at 82 00:04:56.079 --> 00:04:58.040 one point in time. You know, would have found it 83 00:04:58.439 --> 00:05:02.240 all over the compu served a forum, but it really 84 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:05.000 has not been around for a couple of decades as 85 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:09.319 a major discussion topic to come knowledge right now. 86 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:12.240 For a long time it was preserved in the Man 87 00:05:12.839 --> 00:05:17.079 Who Killed Kennedy kind of concept, and in fact, the 88 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:20.079 Men Who Killed Kennedy they took away that episode right 89 00:05:20.360 --> 00:05:23.000 from the Men Who Killed Kennedy series. Although I got 90 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:25.240 to say the way that they scripted that was pretty 91 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:27.800 was pretty interesting, because I was just thinking of it 92 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:30.959 while you were speaking. Tongues were already wagging in Texas, 93 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:35.839 you know, regarding Johnson immediately, because Johnson's from Texas, it 94 00:05:35.879 --> 00:05:39.040 would have made sense Kennedy's killed in Texas. But then 95 00:05:39.079 --> 00:05:41.240 it got deeper and at some point we have this 96 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:46.279 testimony too, right where you have this list of victims 97 00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:51.040 of lynnon Beans Johnson, and that surfaced and that was 98 00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:53.680 obviously clearly shown in that episode of The Men Who 99 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:56.600 Killed Kennedy. And as far as I know, that is 100 00:05:56.639 --> 00:05:59.600 the main place that people were still discovering this is 101 00:05:59.680 --> 00:06:02.360 by the bootleg copies of episode nine of the Men 102 00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:03.720 Who Killed Kennedy. You know what I mean? 103 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:07.959 That is true, But Chuck, the kind of surprising thing 104 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:13.120 is that had first become public back in nineteen eighty four. Again, 105 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:17.920 this is not a new story. Billy Sall had appealed 106 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:21.199 some charges he'd been convicted of, and he was looking 107 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:24.639 for a deal with the Grand Jewelry. Douglas Caddy of 108 00:06:24.680 --> 00:06:28.639 what Watergate fame was his lawyer at that point in time, 109 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:32.560 and his paperwork actually refers to a series of murders 110 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:37.639 in West Texas and the murder of jfk. And at 111 00:06:37.639 --> 00:06:40.040 that point in time he was talking to his lawyer 112 00:06:40.120 --> 00:06:43.759 about the fact that he had tapes with Cliff Carter 113 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:47.920 talking about this. So again, this is really a long 114 00:06:47.959 --> 00:06:51.000 time story that surfaces again and again over time. 115 00:06:52.040 --> 00:06:56.519 Right, So now enter mister Stevens into this conversation, which 116 00:06:56.920 --> 00:06:59.839 how you doing tonight, sir? You ready to tell this story? 117 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:03.319 Yes, sir, thanks for having me on and I'm excited 118 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:05.079 to talk with you guys and your audience. 119 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:08.920 Right now. Larry has just given I think, a really 120 00:07:08.959 --> 00:07:11.720 excellent background on this as to what people could have 121 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:14.439 discovered where they might have heard the name Billy so 122 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:19.240 Lestie's before, and where they might recognize that he was 123 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:22.959 tied to this circumstance, that he was known among people 124 00:07:22.959 --> 00:07:26.480 who researched the assassination and things like that, And indeed 125 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:29.480 going all the way back to the eighties. This was 126 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:31.240 one of the things that I had to be initiated 127 00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:33.240 into because I got into the case in about eighty 128 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:37.160 eight myself, and of course I had to hear about this, 129 00:07:37.480 --> 00:07:39.199 but it was one of those things I didn't know 130 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:42.399 what to do with. It was part of what everybody 131 00:07:42.439 --> 00:07:44.720 called the Texas Connection. And one guy wrote a book 132 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:47.879 which wasn't all that great, called the Texas Connection, but 133 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:51.600 other people had written many a book about these different 134 00:07:51.639 --> 00:07:55.399 connections in Texas, you know, and this involved the oil 135 00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:59.360 men and Madeline Brown and everything, you know over the years, 136 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:03.600 going through the Heraldo appearances, going through the television appearances 137 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:08.519 and all of that. And meanwhile, this is a member 138 00:08:08.519 --> 00:08:11.439 of your family we're talking about here over and over again. 139 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:12.839 So let's let's begin there. 140 00:08:14.279 --> 00:08:17.079 Yeah, and it's fascinating here and Larry talk about some 141 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:19.279 of the conversations he had with my granddad. 142 00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:22.240 You know, he hadn't been with us for over a 143 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:25.399 decade now, and you know, he certainly missed that. 144 00:08:25.720 --> 00:08:29.680 I remember vividly the times of Saul talking about, Oh, 145 00:08:29.720 --> 00:08:30.399 we're going to get. 146 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:32.559 A big book deal, it's going to be a movie deal, 147 00:08:32.679 --> 00:08:35.519 and you know, he went from being one of. 148 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:38.440 The wealthiest men in Texas way before I was born, 149 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:44.080 in the fifties and early sixties, and to really, I mean, 150 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:47.399 it was the richest rag story of my grandmother after 151 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:49.759 they took everything from him and put him in prison, 152 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:55.279 her working three jobs and sewing my my mom and her. 153 00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:56.720 Brothers and sisters clothes. 154 00:08:58.080 --> 00:09:01.600 You know, they had a really, really rough and you know, 155 00:09:01.639 --> 00:09:04.279 it was kind of tough on the family, but a 156 00:09:04.360 --> 00:09:06.960 lot of them recovered to some degree, and Saul always 157 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:09.360 thought in his head, he still had a kind of 158 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:11.399 a twinkle in his eye. He thought that he was 159 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:14.559 going to recover financially and make a big mint and 160 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:18.000 get it all back. And part of that was, you know, 161 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:21.879 about a book deal or a movie deal. And you know, frankly, 162 00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:24.559 I kind of never started to give up on that 163 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:26.879 because there were probably two or three different ones, and 164 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:28.960 finally I was like, I don't think anybody's ever going 165 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:30.240 to pay the money to do this. 166 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:35.440 Deal and make it happen. But I guess who knows, Larry, 167 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:37.399 maybe your name was one that he had mentioned at 168 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:38.120 the time, or. 169 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:43.639 You know, somehow perhaps we were in the same conversation area. 170 00:09:43.879 --> 00:09:46.720 So it took a few decades to get together. 171 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:47.480 But here we are. 172 00:09:48.440 --> 00:09:52.200 Well, yeah, and that's an interesting take because look, on 173 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:55.360 the one hand, there is your life experiences and what 174 00:09:55.519 --> 00:09:58.080 goes on, and then later on in life, you know 175 00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:00.000 a lot of people try and cash in on something 176 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:02.679 that they were part of something or other. And I'm 177 00:10:02.679 --> 00:10:06.759 not casting any aspersions here. I wouldn't blame him, especially 178 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:09.840 you know, he has to go through his family having 179 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:12.120 to go through what it goes through. You know, when 180 00:10:12.120 --> 00:10:15.840 you get incarcerated and you lose things that way and 181 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:20.279 you lose your well, you're standing in society, your property itself, 182 00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:23.440 all of that. I mean, look, everybody looks to come 183 00:10:23.480 --> 00:10:25.039 back out of that and say there's got to be 184 00:10:25.080 --> 00:10:29.360 some redemption here. And if you have something that you 185 00:10:29.399 --> 00:10:32.559 could offer, I mean, why not. Plus, I mean, if 186 00:10:32.600 --> 00:10:35.000 you're talking about the nineteen eighties on, there's a lot 187 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:38.679 of lucrative deals here that are made. I mean, for 188 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:41.279 God's sake, they paid Vince Bugliosi a million dollars and 189 00:10:41.320 --> 00:10:42.919 he didn't know anything about the case at all to 190 00:10:42.919 --> 00:10:46.840 write a book. You know, why not? And yeah, I'm 191 00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:49.039 taking a stab at a dead guy, but I would 192 00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:54.159 do it if he was alive. Trust me. Point is right, 193 00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:57.679 there was plenty of money. Why not. He has a 194 00:10:57.720 --> 00:11:02.519 connection and con troversial connection. But a guy who was 195 00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:06.759 forever marked as what you know, one of the I mean, 196 00:11:06.840 --> 00:11:09.879 let's be blunt. You've heard this before. He's marked as 197 00:11:09.879 --> 00:11:12.279 one of the con men who was part of right 198 00:11:12.519 --> 00:11:15.399 Johnson's criminal organization. And by the way, I have no 199 00:11:15.440 --> 00:11:19.919 problem calling Lyndon Baines Johnson a criminal. But but I'll 200 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:22.919 leave that alone. Maybe maybe you'd agree with me, maybe not, 201 00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:26.840 we'll see. Uh. But you know, but look, your your 202 00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:29.519 grandpa is your grandpa and uh, and he has this 203 00:11:29.639 --> 00:11:32.559 tie to it. And I mean, what were your thoughts 204 00:11:32.559 --> 00:11:35.720 about it early on? I mean, did you did you 205 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:38.440 know about these tapes all along? Did you know about 206 00:11:38.799 --> 00:11:41.159 the whole story all along? Or did you only know 207 00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:42.960 about part of it as you were growing up and 208 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:45.519 learning about it later. I mean, give us an idea 209 00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:46.600 of your awareness of this. 210 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:50.879 Yeah, so, I so. 211 00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:53.200 One of my earliest childhood memories, and I guess this 212 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:57.200 would have been in the early eighties, was going in 213 00:11:57.240 --> 00:12:01.320 this old beat up limo and driving out to Big Springs, 214 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:05.639 Texas and picking Soul up from jail or a prison 215 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:09.679 out there in Big Springs, and I was just excited 216 00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:11.759 that we were going to get to, you know, have 217 00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:14.039 my granddad back and have him as part of my life. 218 00:12:14.039 --> 00:12:18.120 And certainly not old enough to understand or comprehend any 219 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:19.759 of the magnitude of picking. 220 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:21.879 Your granddad up for prison or what that really meant. 221 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:25.559 It didn't feel kind of dirty, and I, you know, 222 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:28.039 I knew that I didn't necessarily want to probably touch 223 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:30.840 a lot of people there or something, which you know 224 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:36.559 isn't necessarily true, but that's the memory that I have. 225 00:12:36.679 --> 00:12:39.879 But when I was six, maybe seven years old, of 226 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:42.320 going into a prison to pick him up, and then 227 00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:43.840 all of a sudden, I was on the front page 228 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:46.159 of the Appline Reporter News with him holding me and 229 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:47.879 carrying me out of jail. 230 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:51.080 I was excited about it. I thought it was pretty 231 00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:52.559 cool that I was on the newspaper. 232 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:55.679 But then, you know, friends at school, and all of 233 00:12:55.679 --> 00:12:58.559 a sudden it blew up that you know, my granddad 234 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:02.480 was a con man and a you know, a bad guy, 235 00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:07.279 and felon and all this stuff. And so, you know, 236 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:09.679 Abilene was a pretty small town then and still to 237 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:12.480 some degree he is. And you get judged pretty hard 238 00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:15.919 for that stuff, so all of a sudden when starts 239 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:19.879 living with us, you know, it was kind of almost. 240 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:22.120 A burden at times. 241 00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:25.440 He lived with me and my mom and my dad 242 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:32.039 for years, and then my mom afterwards, and frankly, you know, 243 00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:37.039 I really avoided most of this stuff. I'd never read 244 00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:40.399 his book, either of his books, my aunt's book. I 245 00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:42.159 haven't read most of the books on him. I read 246 00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:46.600 Roger Stone's book, but I just stayed away from it 247 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:49.600 because it just was kind of almost a negative thing. 248 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:52.159 I got you. So you're six or seven when he 249 00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:57.360 comes out of prison. Yeah, okay, and then how long 250 00:13:57.440 --> 00:14:00.200 does it take before you know, like I say, you 251 00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:02.399 become more aware of this stuff. I mean you said 252 00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:05.000 initially you weren't. Really it's just your granddad's coming out, 253 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:07.559 and you got the childish view of prison, which is 254 00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:10.600 in normal natural you know, you don't know what to 255 00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:12.320 make of it. I mean, listen, grown people don't know 256 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:14.679 what to make a prison if they have no exposure 257 00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:17.759 to it. But the thing is, okay, you got granddad 258 00:14:17.799 --> 00:14:20.679 back home, and you start to realize the communities not 259 00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:25.159 necessarily welcoming and back with open arms, and you got 260 00:14:25.159 --> 00:14:27.159 to contend with you know, what was he a bad guy? 261 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:29.960 He's in prison, but he's my granddad and you're dealing 262 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:31.799 with him on a daily basis, and you're saying to 263 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:35.519 yourself probably like he doesn't seem like a bad guy, right, 264 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:38.080 I mean, this kind of thing going on, But eventually 265 00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:39.960 you're gonna change and you're gonna start to look into 266 00:14:40.039 --> 00:14:43.000 these things. And just to qualify it, how old are 267 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:45.120 you today as we speak, if you don't mind me asking? 268 00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:46.600 From forty eight? 269 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:48.879 Now? Forty eight now, so you're just a little bit 270 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:53.320 younger than me. Okay. It's interesting though, because this is 271 00:14:53.320 --> 00:14:55.799 a big transition to go from six seven year old 272 00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:59.799 to you know, just just edging up to fifty. All right, 273 00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:03.960 go on, So so tell me about how you learned 274 00:15:04.039 --> 00:15:07.200 and grew into this to know about this a bit. 275 00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:12.440 And I don't remember specifics, like a specific. 276 00:15:12.039 --> 00:15:14.080 Time of you know, this was the time that we 277 00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:16.399 sat down and had to talk that there's these tapes 278 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:21.559 and whatnot. But I do remember at a certain age me, 279 00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:26.960 my brother cousins of us talking about, you know, kill Saul. 280 00:15:27.159 --> 00:15:29.480 The only reason he's still alive is he supposedly has 281 00:15:29.559 --> 00:15:33.679 these tapes and he knows who killed John F. Kennedy, 282 00:15:34.279 --> 00:15:39.080 and you know, they his life's endangered, and the reason 283 00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:41.600 he does certain things is to so that he's trying 284 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:43.279 to protect us from being in danger. 285 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:45.120 And so it's kind of like you kind of live 286 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:46.519 in a little bit of fear. 287 00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:50.720 Of something bad could happen based on this knowledge that 288 00:15:50.919 --> 00:15:53.519 you know, there's powers that be out there that if 289 00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:55.720 these tapes were to get out, that something could happen, 290 00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:57.679 or that if he didn't have them. 291 00:15:57.559 --> 00:15:58.399 That he would be dead. 292 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:02.360 As a kid, it's kind of formative, you know, it 293 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:04.480 sticks in your head a little. 294 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:06.279 Bit and you kind of. 295 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:08.639 Keep your head on a swivel, just looking around to 296 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:12.600 make sure everything's safe. And then, you know, as I've 297 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:17.639 gotten older, I started to look at him different. You know, 298 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:19.639 I think I heard his feelings a lot of times 299 00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:22.559 because I was partial to my other granddad, my granddad 300 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:25.200 on the dad's side of the family, because frankly, I 301 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:28.799 bought into what was said about it to some degree, 302 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:32.000 you know, and there are some truth in everything that said. 303 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:36.840 But the more, especially in the last few years, as 304 00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:39.000 I've looked into it more, and especially in the last 305 00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:41.039 few weeks, as I've talked to all these people that 306 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:45.039 knew him. I've started to understand that kind of the 307 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:49.919 assassination and character assassination attempts on people and the media 308 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:52.720 and what they can do to people. There was they 309 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:54.320 did a lot of that to him. I mean, he 310 00:16:54.360 --> 00:16:56.240 brought a little bit of it on himself, but there 311 00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:56.919 was a lot that. 312 00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:01.519 Lyndon nor the Kennedy's wanted wanted him out talking or 313 00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:06.279 funding LBJ or involved, and the attack on him was 314 00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:10.039 brilliant attack on LBJ, and there was no way to 315 00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:12.279 really get him off without incriminating LBJ. 316 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:14.519 So LBJ just kind of left and the. 317 00:17:14.599 --> 00:17:19.400 Rod So I've you know, I look at it differently now, 318 00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:24.160 much different lens today than I did even two months. 319 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:26.920 Ago, right, And I mean there's a lot to be 320 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:30.759 said there, because again it's interesting. I mean, we even 321 00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:35.079 know that the you know, the Johnson estate through Ladybird 322 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:40.720 was still you know, utilizing influence over the media and 323 00:17:40.759 --> 00:17:44.440 things like that. I mean decades later Johnson's dead in 324 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:50.359 what seventy one, I think, but for decades the influence 325 00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:53.240 would still be there. There was pressures on people not 326 00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:58.039 to discuss things, media companies, people that weren't connected. So 327 00:17:58.119 --> 00:18:00.559 I can imagine somebody who did who was in that 328 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:05.279 universe would be pressured as well. But these tapes, and 329 00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:07.519 this is the important thing, right, because these tapes are 330 00:18:07.519 --> 00:18:10.640 crazy in that I mean, there's a portion here where 331 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:13.480 you have a guy like, I don't know, maybe maybe Larry, 332 00:18:13.480 --> 00:18:17.000 you should explain Cliff Carter for a moment, and we 333 00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:20.000 should talk about who's on this tape here, because we're 334 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:22.440 hearing about your granddad. He's one of the voices on 335 00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:24.279 the tape. But there's another thing. 336 00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:28.720 Yeah, I think that's a good idea, Chuck, because one 337 00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:32.279 thing I would recommend, and I'd recommend this to anybody 338 00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:35.279 who really wanted to understand the background of this story. Right, 339 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:39.200 this story is is really about Billy saul SDS and 340 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:44.720 Texas politics and the Democratic National Committee which Johnson set 341 00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:47.400 up from the Beguinea. There was there was no real 342 00:18:47.559 --> 00:18:52.480 Democratic National Committee until Johnson or Republic. Johnson came up 343 00:18:52.519 --> 00:18:56.599 with this concept of collecting money and partiallying it out 344 00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:02.519 nationwide two different Democratic campaigns, but obviously to the Democrats 345 00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:05.880 he wanted to give it to, and so he created 346 00:19:05.960 --> 00:19:10.240 this whole concept of going out and getting big donors, 347 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:14.359 kind of bringing them inside the administration, giving them special 348 00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:18.160 access getting their money, but not necessarily even the LBJ, 349 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:21.160 which is kind of different for LBJ, but to the 350 00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:26.200 DNC as a slush fund as a pack. A lot 351 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:28.880 of what we're seeing right now came out of this 352 00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:32.759 era in time at around nineteen sixty fifty eight to 353 00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:38.440 sixty and if Billy Solestes played a major role in 354 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:42.880 coming up with money to go to the DNC, and 355 00:19:42.920 --> 00:19:45.880 that was all administered by the head of the DNC, 356 00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:50.079 who was Cliff Carter. Cliff Carter wasn't really as part 357 00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:56.160 of the Johnson administration per se. He was Johnson's political network, 358 00:19:56.359 --> 00:19:58.720 political bag man, if you want to call him. That 359 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:04.000 would recommend to anybody a book called Act of Treason 360 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:10.119 by Mark North, and Mark actually digs into a huge 361 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:14.880 amount of detail in you know, people I think maybe 362 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:17.839 think that Billy saw ST's did have a lot of money, 363 00:20:18.359 --> 00:20:20.759 and he did have a private aircraft, and he did 364 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:22.960 loan it to the d n C, and he did 365 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:27.039 send money to Washington DC. Mark even found copies of 366 00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:30.720 you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars sent to the DNC, 367 00:20:31.119 --> 00:20:37.359 and SD's did have contacts into the Agriculture Department with 368 00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:42.960 Secretary Freeman, so st was very much embedded in both 369 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:45.839 the DNC and the AGG Department, which is the source 370 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:47.920 of a lot of the scandals that get talked about, 371 00:20:47.960 --> 00:20:52.160 and they were there. But Cliff Carter, you need to 372 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:56.359 kind of compartmentalize in your mind. Is he's a Johnson 373 00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:00.400 political aid. He's not so much administration per se. Is 374 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:06.680 he's an organizer for Johnson, collect money, disperse money. So 375 00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:10.599 that's who he really is. And when these when these 376 00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:18.559 scandals started to emerge circa nineteen sixty one out in 377 00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:25.880 pay Cooas, it was tremendously embarrassing fort Johnson because there 378 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:30.079 are documented connections their letters and yes, he brought sds 379 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:34.480 to the inauguration for he and Kennedy and so there's 380 00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:38.039 you know, there's no doubt about these connections and of 381 00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:42.039 vests taking advantage of them. He has access to Freeman's 382 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:47.519 at and it's embarrassing for JFK. Not I will say, 383 00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:51.279 not nearly as embarrassing as the Bobby Baker scandal, which 384 00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:54.599 would come up in sixty three with Johnson. But in 385 00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:58.599 its day, it was you know, national news. It wasn't 386 00:21:58.720 --> 00:22:02.960 just Texas. It wastional news. The local newspaper reporter who 387 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:07.240 broke the scandal got a Pulitzer for covering the STS 388 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:11.559 scandal out in West Texas. So I got to say 389 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:16.079 one thing you have to consider in nineteen sixty two, 390 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:20.440 you know, sixty one, sixty two into sixty three, ST's 391 00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:24.480 was a well known national name, probably more so than 392 00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:27.680 Cliff Carter because Carter is kind of behind the scenes, 393 00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:32.640 but EST's was very prominent nationwide. 394 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:38.680 Right. So these two men that are clearly involved in 395 00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:40.880 shaping what it is we're dealing with today when it 396 00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:44.119 comes to the national committees. And you know how they 397 00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:46.480 created these funds to be able to push them around 398 00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:49.759 to do things like influence elections in other states and 399 00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:52.799 stuff like that. The stuff that we see above board today. 400 00:22:52.839 --> 00:22:58.519 This was just coming into existence at this time. And 401 00:22:58.599 --> 00:23:00.799