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Noper dost necessary if we were 22 00:01:02.479 --> 00:01:04.840 privited by loss he terms and conditions eighteen plus. 23 00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:10.120 Lop lop hope. 24 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:28.120 Hope you are now listening to True Murder, The Most 25 00:01:28.120 --> 00:01:31.519 Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that 26 00:01:31.560 --> 00:01:37.799 have written about him Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. 27 00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:42.519 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 28 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:46.680 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 29 00:01:46.840 --> 00:01:50.239 your host, journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 30 00:02:00.519 --> 00:02:01.000 Good Evening. 31 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:03.760 This is the program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers 32 00:02:03.799 --> 00:02:06.040 in True Crime History and the authors that have written 33 00:02:06.040 --> 00:02:10.039 about them with their host stands of Haskey. The affluent 34 00:02:10.159 --> 00:02:13.199 suburb of Cheshire, Connecticut, seemed like the perfect place for 35 00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:16.400 doctor William PETTITTT and his wife, Jennifer Hawk Pettitt, to 36 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:20.080 raise their two lovely daughters until July twenty third, two 37 00:02:20.120 --> 00:02:23.080 thousand seven, when, according to the police, two ex cons 38 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:26.360 invaded the Pettitt home, hoping to embark on a routine robbery, 39 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:30.599 one that would ultimately prove deadly. One unfolded at three 40 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:34.439 hundred Sorghum Mill Drive. Was a tragic and horrifying sequence 41 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:37.479 of events that shocked the community and made headlines across 42 00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:42.120 the nation. Before the morning was over, Missus Hawk Pettitt 43 00:02:42.199 --> 00:02:44.360 and one of the daughters would be sexually assaulted and 44 00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:47.080 the entire house would go up in flames, and only 45 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:50.879 doctor Pettitt, his head bloodied, his legs bound, would manage 46 00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:53.360 to escape with his life with the help of neighbors 47 00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:56.960 and local police. The two success two suspects were soon 48 00:02:57.039 --> 00:03:03.000 found captured. Now Joshua Commas Commas ar Jeski and Stephen 49 00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:04.520 Hayes away trial for murder. 50 00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:05.319 The book. 51 00:03:05.360 --> 00:03:07.400 This evening that we are featuring is in the Middle 52 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:11.400 of the Night with my host, journalist and author Brian McDonald. 53 00:03:11.800 --> 00:03:14.680 Thank you for interviewing to this agreeing to this interview, Brian, 54 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:17.840 and welcome to the program, Brian McDonald. 55 00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:19.280 Hey Dan, how are you? Tony? 56 00:03:20.280 --> 00:03:22.560 Very well, and thank you for agreeing to this interview. 57 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:24.000 A great book, by the way. 58 00:03:24.280 --> 00:03:25.199 No problem. Thank you. 59 00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:29.520 Now, first off, let me ask the question I usually 60 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:32.479 asked the guest because I'm always interested in it. Usually 61 00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:36.919 it's to an interesting answer. What made you decide to 62 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:39.159 write a book about this particular case? 63 00:03:40.159 --> 00:03:43.159 Well, I mean, I mean, first of all, because of 64 00:03:43.759 --> 00:03:45.800 how shocking it was. I'll give you. I'll give you 65 00:03:45.879 --> 00:03:47.719 a little bit of the background. I didn't I didn't 66 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:50.240 open the paper. Now this was front page news. I 67 00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:52.680 live in New York City. This was front plate page 68 00:03:52.759 --> 00:03:57.759 New York Times News, this murder in Connecticut for for 69 00:03:57.800 --> 00:04:00.960 a while after it happened. And it wasn't like I 70 00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:03.240 opened the paper and said, Jesse, I want to write 71 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:05.840 about this, And it didn't unfold that way at all. 72 00:04:07.639 --> 00:04:10.919 I had written a book from my publisher, a true 73 00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:13.719 crime book called Safe Harbor. It was about a woman 74 00:04:13.759 --> 00:04:16.800 that was murdered on Nantucket, and so I had a 75 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:19.680 little bit of a track record with Saint Martin's True 76 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:23.959 Crime and my agent and my editor from the first 77 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:28.519 true crime book I did, conspired and called me and 78 00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:32.639 asked me if I would be interested in writing about 79 00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:36.680 the Cheshire murders. So I didn't jump into it right away. 80 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:41.040 It was such a heinous crime. It was, you know, 81 00:04:41.160 --> 00:04:44.360 I mean, it involved children's sexual abuse all you know, 82 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:47.199 things that can keep you up at night, you know, 83 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:53.240 And so I but after reading about it and doing 84 00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:57.800 some initial you know, investigating into it, I decided that 85 00:04:57.920 --> 00:04:59.720 it was a story and it was a story that 86 00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:06.600 resonated so so clearly with in Cold Blood, you know, 87 00:05:06.680 --> 00:05:09.399 the granddaddy of ultrue crimes, that it was an opportunity 88 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:12.240 that I thought I couldn't. I couldn't pass up, So 89 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:13.800 so I did it. 90 00:05:14.839 --> 00:05:18.199 Now, let's go back and set the scene for where 91 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:22.439 this crime takes place. The community to doctor William Pettitt 92 00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:26.600 and his wife and the daughter lived. Give us that background, 93 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:29.240 give us to what the life of doctor Pettitt would 94 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:31.600 be in his family. What were they like typically, what 95 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:33.720 was a community like? How big is the community and 96 00:05:33.720 --> 00:05:36.879 where is it geographically to a bigger city where we 97 00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:37.920 might recognize. 98 00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:42.120 Okay, it's a it's a bedroom community, Cheshire, Connecticut. It's 99 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:47.199 a beautiful, bucolic New England town. It's like the towns 100 00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:51.279 you see in uh in movies about about New England. 101 00:05:51.319 --> 00:05:56.160 It's uh, there's some farming elements still there, but it's 102 00:05:56.240 --> 00:06:00.680 been built up through uh, you know, some waves of 103 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:05.079 affluence and uh. It's a bedroom community to Hartford. Not 104 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:10.639 only Hartford where the insurance companies, uh, you know, the 105 00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:15.480 big insurance companies have their headquarters, but also to Yale 106 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:17.959 Yale University, and a lot of people that work at 107 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:23.040 at and for the university live in Cheshire, Connecticut. Now, 108 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:26.319 doctor Pettitt was a in the end, the chronologist. His 109 00:06:26.360 --> 00:06:31.920 wife was a nurse, worked in a local private School, 110 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:35.319 Cheshire Academy of very well known uh in in the 111 00:06:35.399 --> 00:06:38.079 area of private school and she was the school nurse. 112 00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:43.319 Doctor Pettitt had a private practice and also worked out 113 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:45.480 of a hospital up there. He was very well known 114 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:50.560 in the community, very well respected in the community. They 115 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:57.120 had had two daughters, Haley who was about to enter Dartmouth. 116 00:06:57.279 --> 00:06:59.680 She was going to follow her father's footsteps. He had 117 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:03.480 graduate waited from Dartmouth. She was going to study pre 118 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:08.120 law and michaela who was eleven at the time. And 119 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:12.959 michaela precocious young lady who was a fan of Rachel 120 00:07:13.079 --> 00:07:16.800 Ray and wanted to be a foodie, a chef, a 121 00:07:16.839 --> 00:07:20.160 celebrity chef and what have you. So they were really 122 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:23.000 the idyllic family. I mean, it was a perfect little block. 123 00:07:23.120 --> 00:07:26.560 They lived on. Sorgam Mill Drive is a you know 124 00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:31.399 as a block replicated thousands of times throughout North America. 125 00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:33.240 It's the kind of block you want to live on, 126 00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:36.639 you want to raise a family on. It's something like 127 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:40.839 this happening on a street like that is so incongruous, 128 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:44.759 it's it's it's absolutely shocking. So it was like the 129 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:49.720 perfect setting for a family, for a for the doctor 130 00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:50.519 Pettitt's family. 131 00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:58.240 Now, let's go to the main characters in this tragic tale. 132 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:01.879 Joshua Coomas, Komasar. 133 00:08:01.959 --> 00:08:06.639 It's Commisar Jefski. Yeah, it's yeah Jeki. 134 00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:07.519 Okay, we got it. 135 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:09.920 That name. First of all, Dan, let me just give 136 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:12.279 you a little background. I mean, the name itself is 137 00:08:12.519 --> 00:08:16.519 was you know, it's a famous Russian name. His Joshua 138 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:19.120 was adopted into the family. But I mean, you're not 139 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:23.360 alone tripping over that name. Everybody trips over all the 140 00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:27.199 journalists do, all the law enforcement people throughout his life, 141 00:08:27.560 --> 00:08:31.240 everybody associated can't get this name out. But the name, 142 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:34.600 you know, it's Russian, that's that's snow Shock. But it's 143 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:40.440 a very famous His grandfather, his adoptive grandfather, Joshua was adopted, 144 00:08:40.480 --> 00:08:46.480 who was a Russian uh director, a very well known director, 145 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:50.279 Russian director in the in the Bolshoi Theater, the famous 146 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:54.600 Bolshoi Ballet, the Bolshoi Theater, moved to immigrated to the 147 00:08:54.679 --> 00:08:59.159 United States, and uh you know, uh, well, I'll tell 148 00:08:59.159 --> 00:09:02.799 you a little bit about how Joshua's family came out. 149 00:09:02.840 --> 00:09:04.480 But go ahead, I'm sorry to throw up what was 150 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:05.000 your question? 151 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:10.200 Oh no, no, I just it's Joshua's life. You've already 152 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:12.840 alluded to that he's adopted, So tell us go just 153 00:09:12.879 --> 00:09:15.519 back a little bit to how he came to be 154 00:09:15.559 --> 00:09:18.320 adopted into this wealthy, affluent family. 155 00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:21.360 Okay, he was, you know, he was adopted at birth. 156 00:09:21.399 --> 00:09:27.600 He didn't know his birth parents. His he found a 157 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:31.080 little bit out about them later on. And his mother 158 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:34.320 was only sixteen, his biological mother was only sixteen. His 159 00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:37.759 father was just a little bit older, maybe nineteen twenty. 160 00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:42.559 There was the indications that there was you know, that 161 00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:46.159 there might have been drugs involved in the biological parents, 162 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:49.840 and that's why they put Joshua up for adoption. But 163 00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:54.480 that didn't do anything to give him a bad life, 164 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:58.279 because he traded He traded up by being adopted. He 165 00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:02.879 was adopted the Commissary Jessky. His parents, his adoptive parents, 166 00:10:03.320 --> 00:10:09.200 Ben and Jude Commercer Jessky, were by all indications, a lovely, lovely, 167 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:15.399 lovely couple. There were Christians, they were fervent Christians. They, uh, 168 00:10:15.799 --> 00:10:19.480 Joshua had belong to a series of of I want, 169 00:10:19.559 --> 00:10:23.120 I don't want to say fundamentalist churches, but in that vein, 170 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:30.399 you know, very very religious people and and they were also, uh, 171 00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:35.639 the surroundings were just amazing. His his grandfather, not the 172 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:39.120 Russian grandfather, because his grandmother married. It gets a little 173 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:42.679 convoluted here, but his grandmother married the Russian grandfather died. 174 00:10:42.840 --> 00:10:46.679 His grandmothers married a man by the name of Chamberlain, 175 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:52.519 who was a actually a pretty well known writer. He 176 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:58.399 was a columnist for several big magazines and also a 177 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:02.720 book reviewer for the New York Times. And he owned 178 00:11:02.840 --> 00:11:05.919 a sixty five acre estate in Cheshire, and it was 179 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:08.799 surrounded by horse farms. It was it's beautiful. It's a 180 00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:12.240 wooded streams, babbling brooks, you name it. It was just a 181 00:11:12.279 --> 00:11:15.879 beautiful place. And that's where Joshua grew up. His his 182 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:18.759 parents had a small house. They called it the homestead. 183 00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:20.919 It makes it sound like it's a bigger place than 184 00:11:20.919 --> 00:11:22.919 it actually was, you know. And it was kind of 185 00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:26.200 ramshackled when when I went up in sort. But the 186 00:11:27.679 --> 00:11:30.960 I mean he had he had every every advantage. Now, 187 00:11:31.799 --> 00:11:35.480 early on he started to show some he started to 188 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:39.120 show some behavioral problems and and and they had to 189 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:43.960 take him out of public schools and his mom homeschooled him. 190 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:49.039 But that that didn't inhibit any any education at all. 191 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:52.519 I mean he he his mother was a librarian. His 192 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:55.519 a grandfather who lived on the estate with this, was 193 00:11:55.559 --> 00:11:58.519 a writer. His grandmother was a ballet dancer. I mean 194 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:01.960 they had all of this influence of arts and and 195 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:05.200 and and letters and and uh. His father was U 196 00:12:06.159 --> 00:12:09.759 Ben commercer. Jeesky was a carpenter and an electricians. So 197 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:14.200 we had you know, tutelage in in uh you know, 198 00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:16.480 working with his hands and everything. I mean, had a 199 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:20.919 wonderful uh childhood. It was just uh, it was just great. 200 00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:24.879 But but around the age of twelve he started to 201 00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:28.679 get he had this and you know, I'll tell you 202 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:31.200 a little bit. I actually spoke to him on a 203 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:36.559 number of occasions and uh and had a correspondence with him, 204 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:41.799 uh via letter letters for for for many months leading 205 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:44.240 up to the trial. But I'll tell you that later. 206 00:12:44.360 --> 00:12:46.679 So that's how I have I'll let us information comes 207 00:12:46.679 --> 00:12:50.519 firsthand that comes from him. You know, when he was 208 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:53.799 around twelve, he broke into a house he was coming home. 209 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:59.240 He used to he used to uh leave the house 210 00:12:59.519 --> 00:13:01.799 like hit wait till his parents went to sleep, and 211 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:04.440 then about twelve o'clock and nine one o'clock in the morning, 212 00:13:04.759 --> 00:13:06.360 he'd get out of the house. He'd go out his 213 00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:09.080 bedroom window and jump on the garage and then go 214 00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:11.759 into the woods, you know, and spend the night in 215 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:14.039 the woods. And he'd always make it back in time 216 00:13:14.919 --> 00:13:17.200 before six o'clock and when his father would wake up, 217 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:20.799 so his father never knew he was out of the house, 218 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:26.279 but he was. He was doing these night night voyages 219 00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:29.080 or whatever through the woods by himself, you know. And 220 00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:34.000 one day he got he ventured father. Then he thought 221 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:35.559 and the sun was coming up, and he knew he 222 00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:38.120 was going to get caught, so he broke into a house. 223 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:41.080 He's twelve years old. He broke into a house, stole 224 00:13:41.240 --> 00:13:43.799 a set of keys for a car, and took the 225 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:46.000 car out of the driveway and drove it home so 226 00:13:46.039 --> 00:13:48.240 he could beat his father getting up so he wouldn't 227 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:51.360 get caught. And that's how his life of crime started 228 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:54.200 and was pretty big. It was for a twelve year old. 229 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:56.320 There was a pretty big entrance to the last year 230 00:13:56.399 --> 00:14:01.039 rime stealing a car. But something he realized how and 231 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:03.039 this is according to him, and you know how much 232 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:07.240 of it is, you know, Joshua has a tendency to 233 00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:10.879 exaggerate a little bit. I think it doesn't sit his 234 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:14.440 but his I mean, the crimes that he would commit 235 00:14:14.519 --> 00:14:21.320 over the next fourteen years leading up to the murders 236 00:14:21.320 --> 00:14:24.360 in Cheshire were just enormous. I mean, even if only 237 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:27.000 fifty percent of them were true, it was an enormous 238 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:30.000 life of crime, and an amazing life of crime. He 239 00:14:32.200 --> 00:14:34.159 found out, he said to me, how easy it was 240 00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:36.879 to break into the house. So he started breaking into 241 00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:39.360 the houses when he was twelve. He'd get on his bicycle, 242 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:42.440 he'd have he'd go out the window of his bedroom, 243 00:14:42.519 --> 00:14:45.600 like I said, he'd get on his bicycle. He had 244 00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:48.639 a camouflage outfit that he sent away for you know, 245 00:14:49.159 --> 00:14:52.679 like a mail order camouflage outfit. He had a dark 246 00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:56.360 skull cap. Later on he bought night vision goggles, you know, 247 00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:59.320 from the back of a magazine something like that. Yeah, 248 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:02.480 I mean, I mean, I'm laughing, but I'm not. It's 249 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:04.639 not it's not funny at all. I don't I don't mean, 250 00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:08.000 I don't mean to diminish what what happened. But you 251 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:11.240 can imagine this kid at twelve thinking that he was, 252 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:16.519 you know, the burglar, you know, par excellence, and and 253 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:20.799 he was. He started breaking into houses by the dozens. 254 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:23.799 When he was twelve, he broke into houses all over 255 00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:28.000 this town of Cheshire and middle in central Connecticut. He 256 00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:33.480 broke into houses around the Pettit neighborhood where the you know, 257 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:37.919 the murders would happen. Many years later, he by his 258 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:42.240 own account, broke into at least two hundred houses during 259 00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:46.519 his teens. Sometimes he wouldn't take anything. He would sit 260 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:49.399 in the house. He said, he wrote this whole letter 261 00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:51.960 of explaining how it was being in a house with 262 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:55.519 the people sleeping upstairs and them not knowing he was there, 263 00:15:55.879 --> 00:15:58.639 and the feelings that he had. He'd listened to the 264 00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:02.519 sounds of the house, the apes, the house settling, the 265 00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:05.600 wind in the eaves. I mean, it was really really creepy. 266 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:10.320 He had this, you know, long, long explanation. Sometimes he wouldn't, 267 00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:13.159 like I said, he wouldn't take anything. Sometimes he'd just 268 00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:16.360 take a picture off the wall, just to like screw 269 00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:19.200 with the people's minds a little bit, you know. I 270 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:23.200 mean there was something. I mean, obviously there was a 271 00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:28.279 something was something was a mess or something was wrong 272 00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:32.200 with his you know, with his psyche early on. But 273 00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:36.720 he didn't get caught. He wouldn't get caught he finally 274 00:16:36.759 --> 00:16:43.279 when he was about I want to say, sixteen years old, 275 00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:47.519 he started a fire in an abandoned car dealership in 276 00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:52.000 Cheshire and he got caught for that. And because he 277 00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:56.000 got caught for that, some of the prior crimes came out. 278 00:16:56.440 --> 00:16:59.399 Either he gave it up himself or I'm not really 279 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:03.200 sure how it happened, but he faced the first of 280 00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:12.039 a series of judges in his late teens that would uh, 281 00:17:11.200 --> 00:17:15.680 he had like a he had this he has this 282 00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:18.160 way about him now when I interviewed him, I sort 283 00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:22.480 a lot. You know, it's that he comes across so likable, 284 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:28.839 so polite, so soft spoken. So you know that people 285 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:32.759 wanted to believe throughout his life that there was something 286 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:35.119 in there worth saving. You know, there was something he 287 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:39.799 has these uh a way of looking at you that 288 00:17:39.799 --> 00:17:43.400 that that has an innocence about it, you know. And 289 00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:46.960 uh and and and he started to get breaks. You know, 290 00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:51.519 one judge after or another gave him you know, uh, 291 00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:54.920 you know, put him in like the parents the first time, 292 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:58.400 the first arrest, the parents talked to judge into letting 293 00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:01.839 them put him in a Christian Christian camp, and he 294 00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:04.799 went into a Christian camp and up in New Hampshire, 295 00:18:04.839 --> 00:18:07.599 and he spent some time up there, and then he 296 00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:11.680 got caught for something else, and the judge said to him, 297 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:17.480 you know, you need some psychological help. So they put 298 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:21.799 him in this psycholog This wasn't a mental hospital, but 299 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:25.920 it was a hospital for trouble teens, a place for 300 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:29.519 trouble teens, but it wasn't jail. And then the third 301 00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:32.200 judge he got caught for something. The third judge said 302 00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:34.759 to him, you know, either go in the army or 303 00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:37.720 now he's nineteen, either go on the army or we'll 304 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:39.599 put you in jail. So he joined the army. He 305 00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:43.200 would ultimately go a well from the army Army reserves 306 00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:45.880 about a year later, or less than a year later. 307 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:50.400 But you know, there was so many missed opportunities early 308 00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:54.799 on where and in the meantime he amassed this like 309 00:18:55.319 --> 00:19:00.799 enormous number of burglaries, and you know, people were looking 310 00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:03.400 the other way. People kept thinking that there's something about 311 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:09.119 this guy that's that's not you know, that's you know, 312 00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:12.359 he's too nice of a boy to be worried about, 313 00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:15.960 you know, But he wasn't. You know, he had already 314 00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:21.039 started to formulate a personality that wasn't wasn't a nice 315 00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:23.319 boy at all. It wasn't a nice boy at all. 316 00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:27.480 So one of the things that you didn't talk about 317 00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:28.880 we could talk about a little bit later. But I 318 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:31.839 think it's fair that at least fair to his character. 319 00:19:32.440 --> 00:19:36.160 Not that I put that much weight on it, but 320 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:39.119 but the fact is that, again, a lot of this 321 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:43.039 stuff is coming from. 322 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:44.319 Okay, round two. Name something that's not. 323 00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:49.920 Boring laundry, computer solitaire. 324 00:19:50.119 --> 00:19:56.640 Huh oh, Sorry, we were looking for Chumbuck Casino. Um, 325 00:19:57.119 --> 00:19:59.559 that's right, Chumbuck Casino dot com as over one hundred 326 00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:02.200 casino style games joined today and play for free for 327 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:07.839 your chance to redeem some serious prizes. 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Actually do I have 333 00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:22.160 to say? 334 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:22.440 Yes? 335 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:22.759 You do? 336 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:25.440 In the car before my kid's pta meeting. 337 00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:29.079 Really, yes, excuse me, what's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? 338 00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:30.279 I never win? 339 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:31.839 And tell well, there you have it. 340 00:20:31.880 --> 00:20:34.680 You could get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landslots dot 341 00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:37.599 com play for free right now, are you feeling lucky? No, 342 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:40.359 we're necessary for my long eighteen plus terms conditions of play. 343 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:43.640 Webster details his perspective. He's telling you this so you 344 00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:46.720 have no way to really verify. But in the same instance, 345 00:20:46.759 --> 00:20:48.799 to be fair, he says that at six years old 346 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:52.559 that uh, there was two more adopted children, and there 347 00:20:52.599 --> 00:20:53.440 was an older boy. 348 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:56.119 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 349 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:59.200 He characterizes not as moless station. So anybody's gonna he 350 00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:05.119 said it was outright, flat out rape and was torturous 351 00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:07.920 for him for I don't know how much time. Maybe 352 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:10.039 you can tell us a little bit about that, because 353 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:12.400 I mean, if there is anything, if there's anything about 354 00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:16.759 his background that seems amiss, this is really this really 355 00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:20.000 is it and it and it It can be considered 356 00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:23.880 fairly well, very serious de bite his idyllic. 357 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:27.720 Background, considering considering what would happen on sorgum Mill Drive, 358 00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:30.119 which we'll talk about, you know, in a little bit, 359 00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:34.440 but considering what happened in the house that night, Yeah, 360 00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:37.759 you're absolutely right. I mean it has a huge, huge, 361 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:41.720 and no doubt. Joshua goes to trial next next year, 362 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:44.880 early next year, and no doubt that's going to play 363 00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:49.279 a large part in the defense of of of him. 364 00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:53.400 And what you're talking about his mother, Uh, it wasn't 365 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:56.480 an adopted it was a She brought in two foster 366 00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:01.680 children and one of them was josh was six or 367 00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:04.240 seven at the time, maybe even younger. I don't I 368 00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:07.759 can't remember. For six yeah, six years old at the time. 369 00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:10.079 And this there was a boy and a girl of 370 00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:15.160 the foster children, and the boy was sixteen and according 371 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:18.519 to Joshua, and it's and it's the court records because 372 00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:21.519 Joshua would would be arrested when he was twenty two 373 00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:27.519 and and in those records, in testimony from that from 374 00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:30.680 that trial, he uh, it came out that he had 375 00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:36.880 in fact been uh sexually assaulted by by this this 376 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:41.960 Forster Forster boy, you know. And Joshua, you're right, Joshua says, 377 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:45.160 and I think the quote is merciless rape, that he 378 00:22:45.400 --> 00:22:48.119 was and that it went on for months. You know, 379 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:54.720 there's no way, I mean, even though it's court records, 380 00:22:55.160 --> 00:23:00.680 I guess there's no way short of putting his parents 381 00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:03.319 on the stand. And I you know, I don't really 382 00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:06.799 know whether they were completely because it went on for 383 00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:11.960 so long to substantiate it completely. But there's you know, 384 00:23:12.039 --> 00:23:17.240 there's I think there's there's also court records from psychiatrists, 385 00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:20.559 psychologists and what what have you that interviewed Joshua. So 386 00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:23.640 it's pretty there's a there's a pretty good chance that 387 00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:26.480 it actually occurred that he was raped when he was 388 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:29.519 five or six by the by the older foster boy. 389 00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:32.680 So you're right. And and uh, like I said, what 390 00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:37.599 what would transpire on sorger Mill Drive would would certainly uh, 391 00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:41.039 you know that that is certainly a huge, huge part 392 00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:45.160 of his formative uh, his formation as a as a 393 00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:47.240 as a as a human being, but also as a 394 00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:49.559 as a criminal and as a you know, a criminal 395 00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:53.200 that committed one of that most heinous crimes in Connecticut 396 00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:55.319 state history. So you're right, yeap. 397 00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:00.440 Now the other perpetrator here, the other character in this 398 00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:04.279 is a man named Stephen Hayes. A lot more, a 399 00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:08.440 lot less interesting, but still for the official record, who 400 00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:09.240 was Stephen Hayes? 401 00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:13.640