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Speaker 6: Are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers
Speaker 6: in true crime history and the authors that have written
Speaker 6: about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every week
Speaker 6: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 6: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 7: Good evening. What is the Price of Passion? What is
Speaker 7: the power of love? Meet Martha Beck, a young nurse
Speaker 7: dedicated to healing others until their own hurting heart lured
Speaker 7: her down a darker path. Loneliness led her to Raymond Fernandez,
Speaker 7: but love led her all the way to the electric chair.
Speaker 7: This is the tragic story of the Lonely Hearts Killers.
Speaker 7: The book that we're featuring this evening is Tortured with Love,
Speaker 7: the true crime romance of the Lonely Hearts Killers, with
Speaker 7: my special guest, journalist and author JT. Hunter. Welcome back
Speaker 7: to the program and thank you very much for this interview. JT. Hunter.
Speaker 2: Thanks glad to be back on here with you Aren't
Speaker 2: True Murder.
Speaker 7: Thank you very much, nice to have you back. Incredible
Speaker 7: story you've brought to us once again, Tortured with love.
Speaker 7: As you write in the book, in the mid forties
Speaker 7: in America, as a product of the byproduct of World
Speaker 7: War Two, many lonely women there will, in fact one
Speaker 7: more one million more women than men in America at
Speaker 7: that time. And you take us right away to a
Speaker 7: woman named Martha Beck who's twenty seven years old in
Speaker 7: nineteen forty seven, her friend Elizabeth Swanson, fellow nurses at
Speaker 7: the Crippled Children's Home. They are having a little visit
Speaker 7: and Martha's looking through her mail and they're having a conversation.
Speaker 7: Take us to this incredible scene where she first meets
Speaker 7: mister Fernandez.
Speaker 2: Martha Beck, as you said, her friend had signed her
Speaker 2: up for what was called the Lonely Hearts Club. And
Speaker 2: just by way of a little background on that, what
Speaker 2: these Lonely heartsblubs were is they were the equivalent of
Speaker 2: maybe online dating service today that we have, where you know,
Speaker 2: people could meet other people across the country. And the
Speaker 2: way this worked back at the time this happened. Of course,
Speaker 2: this is before internet and computers and all that stuff.
Speaker 2: At the time. Back then, they had these clubs throughout
Speaker 2: the country, and the way it worked is the people
Speaker 2: would join the club, and when you join the club,
Speaker 2: after you paid your fee, you got a listing of
Speaker 2: other club members around the country, names and contact information.
Speaker 2: And then what would happen is that people would write
Speaker 2: the people they were interested in trying to make a
Speaker 2: connection to, and you know, many often times they would
Speaker 2: end up exchanging correspondence over an extended period of time,
Speaker 2: you know, in the hopes of some sort of romantic
Speaker 2: relationship developing. So that's kind of the backdrop to what
Speaker 2: happened with Martha Beck. Her good friend had signed her
Speaker 2: up for one of these lonely Hearts clubs without her
Speaker 2: knowing it. And so one day they were together at work,
Speaker 2: as you said, at the hospital of the place they
Speaker 2: worked there, the medical facility, and Martha got a letter
Speaker 2: that she didn't recognize and it turns out it's from
Speaker 2: one of these Lonely Hearts clubs, and you know, she
Speaker 2: was pretty surprised at for and when she found out
Speaker 2: her friend signed it up for her, she was kind
Speaker 2: of irritated, but also intrigued, and she eventually signed up
Speaker 2: for it to get more information, and she was ultimately
Speaker 2: contacted by by someone through the club, this Raymond Fernandez,
Speaker 2: and they didn't end up meeting after exchanging letters over
Speaker 2: you know, several months time period.
Speaker 7: What kind of information were the women and the men,
Speaker 7: but especially in the case of Raymond Fernandez's case, what
Speaker 7: kind of information personal and otherwise was included in that posting.
Speaker 2: The listings would typically include the name obviously in the
Speaker 2: address or location of the person, but it would also
Speaker 2: include personal information such is, you know, their hobbies, their interests,
Speaker 2: and also you know, financial information in many, many of
Speaker 2: the circumstances. And that's how Raymond Fernandez really started using
Speaker 2: these as he you know, he would target women who
Speaker 2: divulged financial information on their club information sheets that seemed
Speaker 2: like they would be a promising target in order to
Speaker 2: try to you know, get their get their money out
Speaker 2: of them. So oftentimes you would have you know, their
Speaker 2: their net worth or the home they owned or the
Speaker 2: value of it and that sort of thing. So there
Speaker 2: was a there was a lot of personal information oftentimes
Speaker 2: on these listings.
Speaker 7: Now you take us to Raymond Martinez Fernandez born in
Speaker 7: nineteen fourteen in Hanolu, Hawaii. His father emigrated from Spain,
Speaker 7: but they had he had moved the family to Bridgeport,
Speaker 7: Connecticut for work. He was a harsh disciplinarian. But tell
Speaker 7: us a little bit about his life and his relationship
Speaker 7: with his father and before we talk about what he
Speaker 7: did at seventeen and his move with his mother.
Speaker 2: Well, as you said, his father was pretty strict, pretty harsh,
Speaker 2: pretty hard on him growing up. After they moved over
Speaker 2: to Connecticut, Raymond spent most of his childhood there, growing
Speaker 2: up and going to school. When he graduated from grammar school,
Speaker 2: instead of moving on to high school with all his friends,
Speaker 2: his father forced him to get out of school and
Speaker 2: help work on the family farm, and was very strict
Speaker 2: with them in other ways as well, and seemed disappointed
Speaker 2: in Raymond's physical stature. He wasn't a real big guy,
Speaker 2: and his father didn't look too kindly on that. So
Speaker 2: it kind of gave him a hard time in general.
Speaker 2: And he was just a harsh disciplinarian in general. And
Speaker 2: you know, there's there's one little story that was related
Speaker 2: about when ray Raymond was about, oh, I don't know,
Speaker 2: maybe thirteen or so, he had come to his father
Speaker 2: and asked if they could have a traditional Thanksgiving, you know,
Speaker 2: like a kind of like a normal American family would do,
Speaker 2: and his father refused, I'm outright, He told him, you know,
Speaker 2: if you want to do something like that, then you
Speaker 2: need you need to take care of it. You need
Speaker 2: to handle it, you know. A day or so after that,
Speaker 2: Ray got with a couple of his friends and they
Speaker 2: went and stole some chickens from a nearby chicken farm,
Speaker 2: and they got caught. And instead of his father coming
Speaker 2: and helping him bail him out and bringing them home
Speaker 2: like like the two friends, both their both their parents
Speaker 2: came and got him. Ray's father, you know, refused to
Speaker 2: take custody of him, and instead he forced him to
Speaker 2: go face the criminal justice system, and so he was.
Speaker 2: He was found guilty to trial, found guilty at a
Speaker 2: juvenile facility there, and ended up spending sixty days in
Speaker 2: Tony jail. There. Kind of an example of you know,
Speaker 2: how harsh his father worked on him.
Speaker 7: Now, his mother, he must have had a different relationship
Speaker 7: with her. He believed he would have a different life
Speaker 7: in Spain. So at seventeen, he moved to Spain with
Speaker 7: his mother, Francis Morales, and his father stayed behind, and
Speaker 7: there he met a beauty at twenty years old in
Speaker 7: Carcinatio probably mispronounced that. Robels tell us about this marriage
Speaker 7: and what happened in terms of his luck and turning
Speaker 7: around again for the worse with the Spanish Civil War.
Speaker 2: Shortly after he was married. I guess this is about
Speaker 2: a you know, less than a year later he and
Speaker 2: his new wife they had their first child. They had
Speaker 2: a son was born, and a few months after that,
Speaker 2: Ray was heading back to the US for work. Got
Speaker 2: a job in New York working as a landscaper, but
Speaker 2: he received notification from his wife that his son was
Speaker 2: real sick, so he kind of dropped everything and rushed
Speaker 2: back to Spain because it looked like his son might die.
Speaker 2: He got back to Spain and fortunately his son recovered.
Speaker 2: But while he was back over there, as you as
Speaker 2: you mentioned in the Spanish Civil War broke out. So
Speaker 2: that was in nineteen thirty six, and because of that,
Speaker 2: there were no ships allowed to go out of Spain
Speaker 2: back to the US. So he was basically trapped over
Speaker 2: his family in Spain, and he ended up waiting for
Speaker 2: one of the sides in the Spanish Civil War for
Speaker 2: Franco's forces. He was forced to serve the front lines there.
Speaker 2: He did that for eight months and encountered a lot
Speaker 2: of you know, really horrific conditions as you know, as
Speaker 2: you might imagine in war times, saw a lot of
Speaker 2: bad things, saw a lot of death and destruction, including
Speaker 2: including the deaths and of you know, his friends and
Speaker 2: other people he knew. And he described that later on
Speaker 2: about what the conditions were like, and you know, the
Speaker 2: rioting corpses on the battlefields and these sorts of things.
Speaker 2: So it was certainly something that would have left it
Speaker 2: lasting impression on him.
Speaker 7: You talk about he was assigned to be a guard
Speaker 7: in an infamous prison where they executed Republican loyalist prisoners
Speaker 7: by firing squad and you talked about the ditches that
Speaker 7: they were, these bodies were thrown in, and he assisted
Speaker 7: with all of this gory work. And like you say,
Speaker 7: it was not unusual for Ray to send people he
Speaker 7: knew to their deaths, even friends and neighbors. One time,
Speaker 7: he wasn't able to maintain his composure, you right, though,
Speaker 7: and a commanding officer at an execution noticed him crying.
Speaker 7: Of all things. He was so disgusted he ordered Ray
Speaker 7: be tied up with the other prisoners and taken to
Speaker 7: the remote field for execution, tell us what happens at
Speaker 7: the last minute, and surely must have had a hand
Speaker 7: in shaping some of his character.
Speaker 2: So he was he was taken with the other prisoners
Speaker 2: that were slated to be executed. He was taken to
Speaker 2: this remote location, you know, and there was this huge
Speaker 2: you know, ditch for lack of a better term there
Speaker 2: that they're all forced to stand in and then they
Speaker 2: would be shot while they're standing down on the ditch
Speaker 2: and then buried there. And so he was forced with
Speaker 2: the other prisoners there to stand down on that ditch,
Speaker 2: and the firing squad, the execution squad, and if you
Speaker 2: want to call it, came and got in position, and
Speaker 2: you know, it was the ready aim and right before
Speaker 2: the fire command was given, the officer stopped the execution
Speaker 2: and pulled Ray back out, and then he was forced
Speaker 2: to stand there and watch as the execution continued. So
Speaker 2: the people that he had just been standing next to
Speaker 2: you were all shot and field in front of him. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: as you as you alluded to, there again another another
Speaker 2: certainly traumatic episode during the war that would that would
Speaker 2: seem to have some sort of impact on him.
Speaker 7: Now, eventually that that was the end of the war,
Speaker 7: and he worked at these dockyards run by the British government,
Speaker 7: but didn't last long. So September of nineteen thirty nine,
Speaker 7: Germany's invasion of poll In marked the beginning of World
Speaker 7: War two, and Ray contacted British officials to offer his services.
Speaker 7: So tell us a little bit about his service and
Speaker 7: the kinds of things he did do and experience.
Speaker 2: So he when World War two broke out, he did.
Speaker 2: He volunteered for this to work with the British there
Speaker 2: in Gibraltar, And basically what he did he served as
Speaker 2: a as a spy, carrying documents back and forth, confidential
Speaker 2: documents back and forth for the sides, and by all accounts,
Speaker 2: he served very very bravely and took on a lot
Speaker 2: of dangerous missions during the time.
Speaker 7: In nineteen forty five, after being in two wars in
Speaker 7: less than a decade, he secured passage on an oil
Speaker 7: tanker which he thought was heading ultimately to New York.
Speaker 7: He planned to carry a plan to earn money and
Speaker 7: send for his wife and daughter. There was a storm
Speaker 7: at sea. What happened at sea? What happened to Ray?
Speaker 2: This is I think a really important part of his
Speaker 2: background you know, we talked about the war and the
Speaker 2: experiences in those two wars certainly affecting him, but the
Speaker 2: this circumstance on the on the ship, this oil tanker,
Speaker 2: is something that I think really had a huge impact
Speaker 2: on him. And there was a storm and see a
Speaker 2: really bad storm and sea and the ship started taking
Speaker 2: on water because of the you know, the waves that
Speaker 2: were breaking over the deck and things, and the water
Speaker 2: pumps failed sure enough on the ship. So everyone's running
Speaker 2: around trying to get the thing under control. So Ray,
Speaker 2: you know, he's he's trying to help out as well.
Speaker 2: So he goes down into the pump room to help out,
Speaker 2: and he's standing down there in the corridor basically, and
Speaker 2: a big wave slams into the side of the ship
Speaker 2: and knocks this this huge heavy door, this heavy metal
Speaker 2: door off of its hinges, so it falls down down
Speaker 2: this corridor onto Ray, who's standing numb below it. So
Speaker 2: it's this it's a six foot high door about a
Speaker 2: half inch thick field door falls down on him, hits
Speaker 2: him in the head with such force that that quarterly
Speaker 2: left this like indentation in his skull on his forehead
Speaker 2: and left him with a you know, really nasty scar
Speaker 2: over three inches long afterwards as well, and you know,
Speaker 2: sent him to the hospital. He was hospitalized for weeks
Speaker 2: and weeks and weeks recovering from that injury.
Speaker 7: When you say it was. When he was well enough,
Speaker 7: he took a job as a utility guy and another
Speaker 7: oil tanker bound for Liverpool. Before going to Mobile, Alabama,
Speaker 7: he was caught stealing some sheets and towels and arrested.
Speaker 7: He had gotten some advice. What was the advice and
Speaker 7: what happened as a result of stealing supplies worth about
Speaker 7: fifty three dollars.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So after he was he spent about four weeks
Speaker 2: in the hospital. After he got released from the hospital,
Speaker 2: he took a job on another ship, another oil tanker.
Speaker 2: When it arrived in the US in Alabama, he decided
Speaker 2: to stay on board to earn some extra pay. So
Speaker 2: he decided to stay on board for a couple of
Speaker 2: weeks to help, you know, get everything taken care of.
Speaker 2: After they had arrived there, when he was getting ready
Speaker 2: to head out, he was packing up, he noticed some
Speaker 2: of the other guys that had stayed on were taking
Speaker 2: different things like towels and bed sheets and whatever else,
Speaker 2: and you know, sticking them in with their stuff and
Speaker 2: taking them. So he saw that and he figured, well
Speaker 2: they're doing it, I may as well do it as well.
Speaker 2: So he took some things, and sure enough he got
Speaker 2: caught when he was trying to go through customs with these,
Speaker 2: you know, these government owned supplies, and he was arrested.
Speaker 2: He was given this advice to plead guilty to it
Speaker 2: to get a lesser sentence, So he decided to do that, thinking,
Speaker 2: you know, he would get some kind of minimal sentence,
Speaker 2: But he entered the guilty flee and ended up getting
Speaker 2: a year sentence, actually a year in the day imprisonment,
Speaker 2: and he was sent to a federal prison in the
Speaker 2: Panhandle for the Panhandle in Tallahassee.
Speaker 7: Now at this, in his mind, this is a fourtuitous
Speaker 7: event in that he develops a friendship with a cellmate,
Speaker 7: a Haitian man who practiced voodoo, and there Ray got
Speaker 7: a copy of a book that was a big influence
Speaker 7: on him, The Magic Island by William C. Brook, a
Speaker 7: classic account of voodoo and Haiti tell us more about
Speaker 7: his fascination and what this this cellmate had told him
Speaker 7: about voodoo and what he started practicing. Even while he
Speaker 7: was in prison, he became.
Speaker 2: Friends with this cellmate who heavily involved in practicing voodoo
Speaker 2: and introduced him to it, and yeah, Ray, he developed
Speaker 2: this fascination with it. You know, really read that book
Speaker 2: The Magic Island very closely, and you know, started getting
Speaker 2: all the information he could from his friend about voodoo
Speaker 2: and what was involved with it, and he really started
Speaker 2: to believe in these sorts of powers that you could
Speaker 2: get from you know, hypnotism and these other sort of
Speaker 2: black magic powers and influence that you have on people.
Speaker 2: He really came to believe that he had developed these
Speaker 2: sort of abilities. And he one thing that really cemented
Speaker 2: this belief in his mind is he wrote to the
Speaker 2: judge who had sentenced him, requesting a reduced sentence, and
Speaker 2: sure enough, his sentence was reduced. This request was granted.
Speaker 2: He was reduced to six months, and he also got
Speaker 2: a reduction for good behavior apparently, and so he was
Speaker 2: released early from the Federal prisionent And so in his mind,
Speaker 2: in this really confirmed that his voodoo powers were the
Speaker 2: ones that had caused the judge to reduce his sentence.
Speaker 7: Right now, he gets a job, and one evening after work,
Speaker 7: he sees a copy of Women's Home Housekeeper and he
Speaker 7: was flipping through and he found an ad. What was
Speaker 7: the ad that he found and what was the information
Speaker 7: that intrigued him.
Speaker 2: He was an ad from one of these lonely Hearts
Speaker 2: clubs that we mentioned earlier, and it was called Old
Speaker 2: Chelsea Station was the name of the club. There were,
Speaker 2: you know, there were there were many of these across
Speaker 2: the country, but this was this particular club he had it.
Speaker 2: He saw an ad, you know, it said something like
Speaker 2: contact Friends lonely Hearts, you know, promising the ability to
Speaker 2: connect with you know, various people. He he went ahead
Speaker 2: and wrote in, requested an application and mailed it back
Speaker 2: in with the you know, the fee that was involved
Speaker 2: with it. And as a result of that, he started,
Speaker 2: you know, he got the list of the other members
Speaker 2: and started looking at over for the different women, female members,
Speaker 2: and started writing to them, picked them out and started
Speaker 2: writing to them. So he started exchanging letters with different
Speaker 2: women different locations in the country that that he had
Speaker 2: met through this club. And he went on and joined
Speaker 2: you know, a few other similar lonely Hearts clubs as
Speaker 2: well and did the same thing. And supposedly he ended
Speaker 2: up getting a list of you know, hundreds, a couple
Speaker 2: of hundred women through these different clubs that he was
Speaker 2: potentially targeting.
Speaker 7: Now you talked at the letter writing skills that he
Speaker 7: had developed somehow bore fruit, and so he had letters
Speaker 7: written back to him from three separate clubs as you write,
Speaker 7: but he had women write in droves. Some of these
Speaker 7: women that he contacted. What was the first first person
Speaker 7: that he we talk about correspondence with Jane William Wilson
Speaker 7: Thompson tell us about that correspondence.
Speaker 2: So he met Jane early on. This is one of
Speaker 2: the first women he seriously started corresponding with. He was
Speaker 2: about a month or so after he started joining the
Speaker 2: club when he started corresponding with her, and he ended
Speaker 2: up meeting her in person. She was a forty year
Speaker 2: old woman living in New York, so you know, close by,
Speaker 2: and he ended up meeting her and they hit it
Speaker 2: off pretty well and actually made plans to go back
Speaker 2: to Spain, the two of them, and purportedly on the
Speaker 2: on the voyage back to Spain, they were kind of
Speaker 2: holding themselves out as as husband and wife, and Jane
Speaker 2: was apparently paying for everything as well on the trip too.
Speaker 2: So they headed over to Spain and got back in Granada,
Speaker 2: and Ray's wife was there still, you know, still living
Speaker 2: there with with their with his children, had four children
Speaker 2: in total now by this time, with his wife, so
Speaker 2: she was still living there with the children. And they
Speaker 2: actually Ray and and Jane actually ended up meeting her
Speaker 2: while they were there. And what ended up happening is
Speaker 2: one night shortly thereafter, Ray was seen leaving the hotel
Speaker 2: that he was staying with Jane, leaving the hotel there,
Speaker 2: and when he returned the next morning, we discovered Jane
Speaker 2: dead in the room. Was his story anyway, and it
Speaker 2: turned out authorities looking into it a little bit more
Speaker 2: later on, it turned out that it appeared that Ray
Speaker 2: had poisoned Jane, given her an overdose of some medication
Speaker 2: she was taking, and by that time he was long gone.
Speaker 2: He had left and was headed back to the US. So,
Speaker 2: but this is the first indication of something not right
Speaker 2: with the women he was meeting through these lonely hearts clubs.
Speaker 7: There was I don't know on this. You say, Spanish
Speaker 7: authority is issued a warrant for Ray's arrest after this,
Speaker 7: but you say he was long gone. November twenty ninth,
Speaker 7: Ray sailed for New York. Arrived December eighth, and then
Speaker 7: he had to break the news of Jane's death to
Speaker 7: her mother Pearl. What did he say and what did
Speaker 7: he what did he say as an explanation, and what
Speaker 7: did he produce? Supposedly from Pearl's daughter.
Speaker 2: He told Pearl that Jane had died of I believe
Speaker 2: it was some sort of heart condition. While she was
Speaker 2: over there, he produced this will. This document was what
Speaker 2: he said, was a will that Jane had prepared, you know,
Speaker 2: conveniently enough before her death. And in the will, she
Speaker 2: had given her apartment that her mother, Pearl was living in.
Speaker 2: She had given that to Ray, and so Ray now
Speaker 2: had control of the the apartment and all the furnishings
Speaker 2: in the apartment.
Speaker 7: Now on this list of priorities, he wants to get
Speaker 7: back to correspondence and meeting Martha Beck. They have corresponded,
Speaker 7: so now it's one of the top on the list
Speaker 7: women to meet. And there a few days before Christmas
Speaker 7: he telegrammed Martha proclaiming that he just couldn't bear waiting
Speaker 7: any longer to see her. So you describe their meeting.
Speaker 7: Ray five foot eight, one hundred and sixty pounds and
Speaker 7: a movie called The Gaslight with Charles Boyer. So for Martha,
Speaker 7: you have this scene where Ray gets off the at
Speaker 7: the train station and she meets him. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2: So, as you said, this is a few days before
Speaker 2: Christmas nineteen forty seven, Martha went to the Pinnacle train
Speaker 2: station to meet Ray for the first Simon person. And
Speaker 2: she yeah, she was a big fan of Charles boy
Speaker 2: She had seen a lot of his films, including Gaslight,
Speaker 2: and she was really attracted to him. And so Ray,
Speaker 2: by all accounts, had had a really strong resemblance to
Speaker 2: this famous actor. His his faith looked very similar. He
Speaker 2: had the same sort of deep set eye, the same
Speaker 2: sort of complexion, the same sort of hair, and also
Speaker 2: the same sort of physical stature, and even the way
Speaker 2: he kind of walked and moved around as very similar
Speaker 2: as well. So when he got off the train, it
Speaker 2: really struck Martha. You know, she was she was pretty
Speaker 2: much loved Drack as soon as when he as soon
Speaker 2: as she saw him when he stepped off the train,
Speaker 2: you know, to her it was like this famous actor
Speaker 2: that she loved so much had had literally just stepped
Speaker 2: off the train into her life.
Speaker 7: She had two children. What was his attitude towards the children.
Speaker 2: She was really happy to see that that Ray really
Speaker 2: seemed to enjoy the children and like the children. You know,
Speaker 2: he stayed with her there in Pensacola for a few days,
Speaker 2: and while he was there, you know, he spent time
Speaker 2: with the kids and was you know, seemed to show
Speaker 2: an active interest in them and seemed to really have
Speaker 2: a genuine affection for them. So that that really helped
Speaker 2: in her mind firm up that that, you know, he
Speaker 2: was the he was the right guy for her.
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Speaker 7: What kind of talk ensued quickly as a result of
Speaker 7: a couple of days of being together.
Speaker 2: This is the first time, of course, that Ray had
Speaker 2: seen Martha in person, And just to kind of step
Speaker 2: back a little bit, Martha was a larger woman. She
Speaker 2: was pretty big. She certainly not like some petitue, little
Speaker 2: little la you know, that he might have in mind.
Speaker 2: So when he saw her in person, he was, no
Speaker 2: doubt a little bit of a surprise to him. So he,
Speaker 2: you know, he decided that he didn't want to have
Speaker 2: too much to do with her. So after a few
Speaker 2: days he told her he made up a story essentially
Speaker 2: that he needed to be back in New York to
Speaker 2: take care of some kind of business matter and he
Speaker 2: had to he had to leave right away, so he,
Speaker 2: you know, he did that, and it was very upsetting
Speaker 2: for Martha. You know, she she really wanted to be
Speaker 2: with him longer, and she didn't react too well to
Speaker 2: it when he left. But but he did end up
Speaker 2: didn't pack up to New York, and you know, it
Speaker 2: turned out she ended up following him up there, not
Speaker 2: not much longer after that. She showed up in New York,
Speaker 2: so surprising him, and he wasn't too keen wrapped up well.
Speaker 7: She had brought her two children as well, so he
Speaker 7: really wasn't too happy with that. What did he what
Speaker 7: did he say to her? And this is right around Christmas?
Speaker 2: He told her that he eventually decided, you know, she
Speaker 2: could stay with him, but the children wouldn't be able
Speaker 2: to stay. And she thought about it and weighed in
Speaker 2: her mind, and she decided the future that she thought
Speaker 2: she might be able to have with Ray, she decided
Speaker 2: was worth more than her two children. So she ended
Speaker 2: up taking her two kids to a Salvation Army location
Speaker 2: there and pretending like they were going to be spending
Speaker 2: the night there, and then she know, she waited until
Speaker 2: her son fell asleep, and then she told her daughter
Speaker 2: she was stepping out to get something for them and
Speaker 2: said she would be back, and she walked out and
Speaker 2: never came back and abandoned her kids for ray.
Speaker 7: You talk about the next few weeks, it's a she
Speaker 7: is deliriously happy, going to movies, dancing, dinner, sight thing,
Speaker 7: and he waits on her hand and foot, and she'd
Speaker 7: never had any kind of treatment like this before. He's
Speaker 7: very lovable, always caressing her. So what happens with this
Speaker 7: confidence in this relationship. He decides to do what and
Speaker 7: tell her what.
Speaker 2: So eventually he decides to confide in her about what
Speaker 2: he's doing with these lonely hearts clubs. You know, he
Speaker 2: lets her in on the secret that he's targeting women
Speaker 2: purposely in order to to you know, scam them out
Speaker 2: of their money, you know, to fleece them out of
Speaker 2: whatever they have. So he lets her know that he
Speaker 2: must have sensed how how devoted Martha already was to him,
Speaker 2: you know, in this short time period for him to
Speaker 2: for him to divulge that. So we told her that,
Speaker 2: and you know, he didn't really seem to phase her
Speaker 2: too much. You know, she didn't go running off and
Speaker 2: say I don't want to have anything to do with you.
Speaker 2: The quite the opposite. You know, she stayed with him,
Speaker 2: and she ended up helping him out with these these
Speaker 2: scams and started posing as his sister when he would
Speaker 2: meet these other women.
Speaker 7: It's a little more complicated than that, because she says, listen,
Speaker 7: I love you no matter what. I don't know if
Speaker 7: you can love another woman, but I'm going to be
Speaker 7: with you no matter what. I don't care about these
Speaker 7: other fake romances. This m this love is so genuine,
Speaker 7: I don't care. And then he gives her ultimatums and
Speaker 7: he says, this, listen, but the thing is, you can't interfere.
Speaker 7: I'm going to do whatever I want to do. I'm
Speaker 7: going to do whatever I want to do. And of
Speaker 7: course she agrees with that, doesn't she.
Speaker 2: Exactly he does. He does give this ultimatum that she's
Speaker 2: he's going to allow her to stay with him, but yeah,
Speaker 2: this condition that she can't interfere with with what he
Speaker 2: wants to do. So and she she's she's so taken
Speaker 2: with him that she she agrees to it. She's she's
Speaker 2: fine with that condition.
Speaker 7: Now, on February thirteenth, Ray sets his plans into motion.
Speaker 7: He needs to go to Reading, Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania to meet
Speaker 7: Esther hen or Hennay. And she was instantly attracted by
Speaker 7: his genteel manner and bad boy attitude. What were they
Speaker 7: talking about after a couple of days being together.
Speaker 2: Well after he met Eser, you know, not long after that,
Speaker 2: the idea of marriage, you know, this is this is
Speaker 2: kind of raised. He would he would start bridging the
Speaker 2: idea of getting married, you know, in order to lead
Speaker 2: the woman on and let her think that he was
Speaker 2: really serious about this relationship, you know, in order to
Speaker 2: get her to get to get her put her guard
Speaker 2: down and you know, trust in him and all these
Speaker 2: sorts of things. So it wasn't the way he operated
Speaker 2: these scams, as he would do this and so yeah,
Speaker 2: so with Esther, he brought up the idea of marriage,
Speaker 2: and so there were plans made for them to to
Speaker 2: be married, and sure enough they drove to a courthouse
Speaker 2: and had a marriage there on it.
Speaker 7: Now this is their first endeavor together. So right away
Speaker 7: Esther realizes that Martha had taken some of her jewelry,
Speaker 7: and then she finds a money belt with five hundred
Speaker 7: dollars missing. Tell us a little bit about this. Despite
Speaker 7: his charm and his explanations, this woman is seeing some
Speaker 7: things that concern her.
Speaker 2: So this, this money belt goes missing with five hundred
Speaker 2: bucks in it, which you know, back in forty eight
Speaker 2: five hundred dollars was I mean, it's a lot today,
Speaker 2: but he was really odd back then. So this this
Speaker 2: goes missing, and Esther started getting a little suspicious about
Speaker 2: things that were going on. She started having some second thoughts,
Speaker 2: and she kind of gave Martha the slip when they
Speaker 2: were supposed to be going to the bank and went
Speaker 2: back to the apartment, popped in your car, and drove
Speaker 2: back home to Pennsylvania. So she, you know, she was.
Speaker 2: It turned out she was pretty fortunate to have these
Speaker 2: suspicions come up and be able to get away like that,
Speaker 2: because she she'd hung around, she might have suffered the
Speaker 2: fate that some of these other women.
Speaker 7: Now. Ray is spooked by Esther's getaway and so he
Speaker 7: sold the Jane Thompson apartment that he had chiseled out
Speaker 7: of her through the will, and he had pocketed fifteen
Speaker 7: hundred dollars from that sale. Now you say, he's empowered
Speaker 7: by this cash, and so he goes on a trip,
Speaker 7: takes Martha on a trip, and then they decide to
Speaker 7: relocate to Chicago. He gets a job as a mechanic
Speaker 7: and she gets a job as a nurse. Now, what
Speaker 7: happens when almost all that money is gone from that
Speaker 7: apartment sale? What does Ray do? As you say, who
Speaker 7: does he meet through the Lonely Hearts Club this time?
Speaker 2: So he goes back to the Lonely Hearts Club and
Speaker 2: picks out another woman there that he's been corresponding with.
Speaker 2: Their name is Myrtle Young. She's a forty year old
Speaker 2: woman from Arkansas, and he ends up pursuing her through
Speaker 2: the Lonely Hearts Club, and of course they end up meeting.
Speaker 2: She takes a bus to Chicago's to meet him, and
Speaker 2: Ray introduces Martha again as his sister. Sure enough, not
Speaker 2: long after that, a few days later, Ray is marrying
Speaker 2: Myrtle Young. So they get married there in Chicago. And
Speaker 2: threw that Ray ends up getting more money, gets money
Speaker 2: from Myrtle, gets her to wire money from her bank
Speaker 2: in Arkansas to the bank there in Chicago, and withdraw,
Speaker 2: withdraw the money and buys in your car for Ray
Speaker 2: and all sorts of all sorts of good things for him.
Speaker 7: Now. Myrtle, though, is not liking the situation with his
Speaker 7: sister around all the time, so she tries or is planning,
Speaker 7: to get rid of Martha. Ray and Martha have a conversation,
Speaker 7: and so what is planned and what does Martha do?
Speaker 2: So they decide that they need to get rid of Myrtle.
Speaker 2: So Martha gives her an overdose of barbituates and Myrtle
Speaker 2: loses consciousness. And what they do is they end up
Speaker 2: sticking her on a bus bound back for Arkansas. You know,
Speaker 2: they keep the car that she had purchased for Ray,
Speaker 2: they keep the falcon as a dollar she'd withdrawn from
Speaker 2: her bank, and send her off on the bus. And
Speaker 2: she's found on the bus a day or two later,
Speaker 2: you know, days barely coherence, has to be carried off
Speaker 2: the bus and ends up dying not long after that
Speaker 2: in a hospital there in Arkansas, without ever really giving
Speaker 2: a real coherent account of what had happened to her son,
Speaker 2: another victim of Ray's The only hearts love scandals here.
Speaker 7: You say. All the while too, he has sending. He
Speaker 7: has been sending money to his family in Spain, his
Speaker 7: wife and is now his four children, and they have
Speaker 7: a comfortable life.
Speaker 2: He's been sending money back to Spain to help support
Speaker 2: the family, you know, using part of the the money's
Speaker 2: he's getting from these victims that he's fargeting through these
Speaker 2: only Hearts clubs to support his wife's and kids back
Speaker 2: there in Spain. You know, it's a repeating pattern. So
Speaker 2: after they get rid of Myrtle, then he goes back
Speaker 2: and finds another one. This one this time they find
Speaker 2: he finds a woman in Vermont that he takes a
Speaker 2: liking to, Irene de la Points. So once again he
Speaker 2: goes and meets her again. Martha's posing as his sister
Speaker 2: and they go to Devant to meet her, and he
Speaker 2: uses the same name he's been using. He goes by
Speaker 2: Charles Martin instead of using his real name when he's
Speaker 2: worn and again the subject of marriage comes up when
Speaker 2: he meets her. They even even get blood tests they're
Speaker 2: in Vermont, but uh, you know, something happens this time
Speaker 2: before they can get married. Martha finds out that they're
Speaker 2: making his wedding plans again and throughout her time with
Speaker 2: him when he's meeting these women. Martha has been battling
Speaker 2: to keep her jealousy in check, right she you know,
Speaker 2: she has to stand by and watch him marrying these women,
Speaker 2: you know, oftentimes serving as the you know, an official
Speaker 2: witness for it. And and it's she's been having a
Speaker 2: problem with it, and it's been boiling and boiling up
Speaker 2: and boiling up, and by this time she it kind
Speaker 2: of boils over. And what she does is she ends
Speaker 2: up writing a letter to this latest woman, Irene, and
Speaker 2: tells her point blank what Ray's been doing, you know,
Speaker 2: leaving out the fact that he's killing other women, but
Speaker 2: you know, letting her know that bad things that happened
Speaker 2: to these other women he's met through the villain Hearts clubs.
Speaker 2: And so, of course Irene reads the letter and calls
Speaker 2: off the relationship with the Ray, and when he finds
Speaker 2: out why she did so, you know, he's furious with Martha,
Speaker 2: and so he sends her away. But of course they
Speaker 2: get back together. You know, Martha can't better be away
Speaker 2: from him, and and to his surprise, I think Ray
Speaker 2: discovers that he is actually missing Martha too, so he
Speaker 2: lets her come on back and they start back up again.
Speaker 7: What does she tell him regarding her health and what
Speaker 7: does he recommend for her to do? And what does
Speaker 7: she do?
Speaker 2: So she lets him know that she's pregnant, and he
Speaker 2: tells her that, you know, basically just tells her that
Speaker 2: she needs to get an abortion. He doesn't want to
Speaker 2: have the child. So she ends up doing the procedure herself.
Speaker 2: She takes a needle, a largely crochey needle, and performs
Speaker 2: this procedure on herself by inserting that up into her
Speaker 2: vagina in order to puncture the the sack of the
Speaker 2: nervan gna in her uterus. And she does this and
Speaker 2: she ends up giving birth to the baby. I think
Speaker 2: it was a few days later when when actually the
Speaker 2: the Misterriae happens. She does that at a house she's
Speaker 2: working at, is kind of a caretaker for the kids
Speaker 2: that live there. She ends up giving birth when no
Speaker 2: one's at the house, she's alone, and gets rid of
Speaker 2: the gets rid of the you know, the baby that's born,
Speaker 2: and and so that takes care of the the abortion
Speaker 2: that Ray wanted.
Speaker 7: So they're back together, and Ray is employing his voodoo
Speaker 7: powers of deviation and divination and he finds a person
Speaker 7: named Janet Fay five foot four, one hundred and thirty
Speaker 7: five pounds with what's most important to him when he
Speaker 7: looks at the women that he picks out that she
Speaker 7: has seven thousand dollars in savings. So what happens with
Speaker 7: Janet Faye? And he as Charles Martin.
Speaker 2: So this is by now, this is about a year
Speaker 2: after Ray and Martha had met. This is December forty eight,
Speaker 2: nineteen forty eight, and he targets Janet Faye. She was
Speaker 2: a widow, her husband had died a year or two earlier,
Speaker 2: and she was a really very very religious woman. She
Speaker 2: was a Catholic, and so he kind of played up
Speaker 2: on his Catholic background and made it, you know, seem
Speaker 2: like that he was very active in the church, and
Speaker 2: she really liked that. So he ended up driving over
Speaker 2: to meet her, to meet Janet. She was from already
Speaker 2: New York. And again the same sort of thing, Martha
Speaker 2: is my sister, I'm I'm I'm Charles, you know, and
Speaker 2: all this sort of thing, the same sort of scam
Speaker 2: they use to get in with Janet. And of course,
Speaker 2: again marriage is brought up and Janet's is certainly game
Speaker 2: for that. She's very attracted to to Ray and they
Speaker 2: continue down this path. And as you said, she had
Speaker 2: quite a bit of money saved up, so that really
Speaker 2: attracted him to her as well, and he ended up
Speaker 2: getting a lot of that money. He ended up getting
Speaker 2: her to go to these various banks where she maintained
Speaker 2: her accounts and withdrawing the funds and either in cash
Speaker 2: or in cashier checks, and she ended up handing that
Speaker 2: over to him to keep for safe keeping. Basically, step into.
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Speaker 7: Now, the thing is she had put on her profile
Speaker 7: that she was forty four, but in actuality she was
Speaker 7: like sixty six, So again he had to make a
Speaker 7: little bit of an adjustment. I would think, what does
Speaker 7: she notice about the relationship between Martha and Ray.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it picks up that it seems like that there's
Speaker 2: a little bit more than a normal brother sister kind
Speaker 2: of relationship going on there. I don't know if you ever,
Speaker 2: you know, put two and two together completely, but something
Speaker 2: didn't seem quite right to her mind.
Speaker 7: And one night, because they sleep together to Martha and
Speaker 7: her her and Ray sleeps in a in another room.
Speaker 7: During this time that they spend together, the three of them,
Speaker 7: they have these late night trysts where they do everything
Speaker 7: but have sexual relations. Again, unbeknownst to her that Martha
Speaker 7: is a seething jealous wife. So tell us what happens
Speaker 7: one night when they're sleeping and she's a little bit
Speaker 7: restless what kind of conversation she has with Martha.
Speaker 2: So Janna, one night when they're sleeping there, she she
Speaker 2: really starts to get concerned about the money that she's
Speaker 2: taken out of all her bank accounts and that Ray has,
Speaker 2: and you know, starts peppering Martha with questions about it
Speaker 2: and ends up getting up and leaving the bedroom and
Speaker 2: going out into the living room where we're Ray's sleeping
Speaker 2: on the on the pullout couch there, and there ends
Speaker 2: up being a confrontation. And this is really where the
Speaker 2: story kind of takes different turns, because there ends up
Speaker 2: being I think I ended up counting there's four different
Speaker 2: versions of what happens next, depending on telling it and
Speaker 2: depending on when they're telling it, because the story kind
Speaker 2: of changes at different points. But but the you know,
Speaker 2: the end result of it is Janet Fay is murdered
Speaker 2: in the apartment by being struck in the head with
Speaker 2: a hammer twice and also by being strangled. So you
Speaker 2: know who did it and what exactly the circumstances were
Speaker 2: how it occurred. You can't say with one hundred percent certainty.
Speaker 2: The only thing you can say for sure is that
Speaker 2: Ray and Martha were both there and Janet was murdered.
Speaker 2: And the kind of the first one of the first
Speaker 2: accounts of it is that they, you know, upon hearing Janet,
Speaker 2: you know, going on on about the her worries about
Speaker 2: the money and these sorts of things, that he kind
Speaker 2: of motions to Martha to a hammer that he had
Speaker 2: got out earlier that night, indicating to her that you know,
Speaker 2: she needs to to get rid of of Janet, and
Speaker 2: you know, tells her, you know, if you love me,
Speaker 2: you'll do it. And so Martha takes the hammer and
Speaker 2: you know, wax Janet across the head and then they
Speaker 2: end up you know, making sure she's she's dead for sure.
Speaker 2: And then there's a period of time afterwards where they're
Speaker 2: trying to cover up the crime. This is all covered
Speaker 2: in a book where they're trying to figure out how
Speaker 2: they're gonna get rid of the body. They're going to
Speaker 2: different banks trying to collect these cats on these cashier
Speaker 2: checks to get all of the cash that Janet had,
Speaker 2: and eventually do ended up getting rid of the body.
Speaker 2: They find a house, a rental house that has a
Speaker 2: basement that that's you know, kind of allows them access
Speaker 2: to the open ground in the basement. So they dig
Speaker 2: a hole in the basement that a grave in the
Speaker 2: basement for Janet and throw in the hole, you know,
Speaker 2: fill it back up with a dirt and then they
Speaker 2: ray covers it over with cement and allows the cement
Speaker 2: to harden there in the house. So that's how they
Speaker 2: get rid of Janet after they kill her, and then
Speaker 2: it's right back to what they were doing before. They
Speaker 2: go back to the lists, the only Hearts lists, and
Speaker 2: they find somebody else, so this time a woman named
Speaker 2: Delphine Downing, who's another widow from Michigan.
Speaker 7: Yes, and she has a two year old as well,
Speaker 7: and raised letters are very very effective again doing things
Speaker 7: very very quickly, so that now he only has to
Speaker 7: send a few letters. And these people are overcome and
Speaker 7: want to meet him. They the three of them get
Speaker 7: together in February and have a couple of weeks of
Speaker 7: sexual relations. When she doesn't when she misses her normal
Speaker 7: menstrual cycle, who does she come and and who does
Speaker 7: she ask for advice? And what is that advice?
Speaker 2: So Delphine, she's concerned that she might be pregnant, so
Speaker 2: she to Martha and confides in her, you know, asks
Speaker 2: for help and and Martha assures her, oh, I know
Speaker 2: exactly what to do. I know how to take care
Speaker 2: of it. So Martha gives her a bunch of sleeping
Speaker 2: pills and tells her to take him because it'll abort
Speaker 2: the pregnancy. So Delphine does what she's what suggested. She
Speaker 2: takes the pills, becomes you know, very very drowsy. Obviously,
Speaker 2: because of that, and the child, Renelle, a two year
Speaker 2: old uh sees sees her mom acting really weird and
Speaker 2: so starts crying and all these sorts of things. And
Speaker 2: as a result of that, Ray ends up going into
Speaker 2: the next room and getting a getting a gun that
Speaker 2: belonged to the Delphine's, you know, Desi's husband, and comes
Speaker 2: back into the room and shoots Delphine in the head
Speaker 2: with it kills her. Now they have another body to
Speaker 2: get rid of, and now of course they have the
Speaker 2: two year old daughter as well to deal with.
Speaker 7: Now they try to do some things like buy her
Speaker 7: a puppy and try to relate to her and try
Speaker 7: to get to win her over. Daughter has some problems.
Speaker 7: So eventually what do they decide to do with the daughter?
Speaker 7: And you describe this incredible scene where Ray asks a
Speaker 7: huge favor of Martha.
Speaker 2: At first they think maybe they can, you know, keep
Speaker 2: the girl, but they ultimately decide there's really no way
Speaker 2: that that's feasible that it would be. It would just
Speaker 2: be too difficult trying to explain, you know, why she
Speaker 2: was with them and in these sorts of things. So
Speaker 2: Ray decides they have to get rid of her, and
Speaker 2: he tells Martha, you know again kind of point blank
Speaker 2: that that you need to do it, you need to
Speaker 2: get rid of her. So Martha, you know what Ray wants,
Speaker 2: he gets when it comes to Martha. So Martha takes
Speaker 2: the little girl and takes her downstairs. And you know,
Speaker 2: when they when they dug the hole, the very bury
Speaker 2: the mother Delphine. As they were digging the hole, the
Speaker 2: groundwater started filling in the hole, and so they had
Speaker 2: to take a bucket and bale the water out of
Speaker 2: the hole as they did that, and so the water
Speaker 2: had been put in, you know, like a washtub there
Speaker 2: in the in the in the basement, in the cellar,
Speaker 2: and the water is still there. So she went downstairs
Speaker 2: with the little girl and grabbed her by the feet
Speaker 2: and turned her upside down and dunked her in the
Speaker 2: water and drowned.
Speaker 7: Her and buried her beside her mother and cemented it over.
Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 7: They went to see the move a movie afterwards, but
Speaker 7: when they returned they were met at the door by who.
Speaker 2: So this is kind of another kooky sort of thing.
Speaker 2: I mean, they just had just recently buried the mother,
Speaker 2: and they just killed this two year old girl and
Speaker 2: buried her beside her mother. And what do they do.
Speaker 2: They decide they're going to go into town and go
Speaker 2: to the movies. So they go to the movie, they
Speaker 2: come back, as you said, and you know, not more
Speaker 2: than a minute or so after they walk in the door,
Speaker 2: there's a knock at the door and it's the police.
Speaker 2: So the neighbors had become suspicious about Ray and Martha
Speaker 2: being there and why Delphine had kind of disappeared without
Speaker 2: her telling anybody about that, and they didn't believe the
Speaker 2: stories that Ray and Martha were telling that Delphine kind
Speaker 2: of had a family emergency she had to go to
Speaker 2: and and this sort of thing. So they had called
Speaker 2: up the police and asked, essentially they conduct a welfare check.
Speaker 2: And so the police showed up at the house there,
Speaker 2: knocked on the door and kind of asked Ray, you know,
Speaker 2: where Delphine was, and you know, he said the same
Speaker 2: sort of thing, that she had had to leave her
Speaker 2: family emergency and that she took her daughter with her
Speaker 2: and that he and Martha were just their kind of
Speaker 2: house sitting. So the police asked if they could come inside,
Speaker 2: and he let him in, and you know, obviously feeling
Speaker 2: confident that they had done a good job disposing of
Speaker 2: the bodies. But the police and did it up in
Speaker 2: the basement eventually, and they found the bodies and you know,
Speaker 2: it was it was said that Renel's body was the
Speaker 2: little girl's body was still warm when they dug her
Speaker 2: up because it had been so recently. Of course, Ray
Speaker 2: and Martha are arrested as soon as they as soon
Speaker 2: as they discover this.
Speaker 7: Ray has four thousand dollars in cash on them, and
Speaker 7: they found the list of over one hundred women's names
Speaker 7: from twelve states on the Lonely Hearts Circular at seventeen
Speaker 7: with check marks. You say, likely prospects. Now, Also, they
Speaker 7: found a twenty two caliber and they found in a
Speaker 7: trunk a bloodied balpeen hammer. So obviously they have these arrests,
Speaker 7: and there's a da Roger McMahon arrives and what happens
Speaker 7: at questioning from both of these people.
Speaker 2: So yeah, he questions. He separates three and Martha and
Speaker 2: starts questioning them, and they start, you know, you know,
Speaker 2: you guys got me dead to rights. He decides he's
Speaker 2: just gonna he's just gonna open up and tell him.
Speaker 2: He says, he says, I'm no average killer, I may
Speaker 2: as well come clean and tell everything. Almost like he's,
Speaker 2: you know, in a way, maybe sort of proud of
Speaker 2: what he's done. But he he does. He goes on
Speaker 2: and tells him what happens. Martha does the same thing.
Speaker 2: And this is what I kind of talked about earlier
Speaker 2: about how there's these different versions of events come out.
Speaker 2: So we get a version of the story from Martha
Speaker 2: where where Martha has this confrontation with Janet and next
Speaker 2: thing she knows, she she has the hammer in her
Speaker 2: hand and hits her. And then we have a version
Speaker 2: of the story later on while they're in custody, kind
Speaker 2: of a supplemental statement that that that changes where it
Speaker 2: goes back more to Ray like directing her to commit
Speaker 2: this murder, ordering her to commit this murder. Uh, And
Speaker 2: then we get another version of it at trial the
Speaker 2: story changes from both of them, and then even later
Speaker 2: on after they've been convicted at trial, the story changes
Speaker 2: ultimately Martha, Martha leaves behind kind of a final confession,
Speaker 2: just has a different version of the story as well.
Speaker 2: So so while they're in custody though, they give these
Speaker 2: these different confessions, and meanwhile the State of New York
Speaker 2: and the state of Illinois are going back and forth
Speaker 2: on you know, who's gonna who's gonna send them a
Speaker 2: trial because they Ray confesses to the Janet f a
Speaker 2: murder and tells them where to find the body and everything.
Speaker 2: So so New York really wants to put them on
Speaker 2: trial for murder, and ultimately that's what ends up happening.
Speaker 2: They end up getting extra guided to New York to
Speaker 2: face trial, and so that's where their their trials held.
Speaker 7: What the public loves most and today and then at
Speaker 7: the same time is true there was details of as
Speaker 7: part of the defense that this was abnormal sex between
Speaker 7: them and given the time, they talked about oral sex
Speaker 7: from both partners and those kinds of details. What you
Speaker 7: describe in the book how sensational and how big this
Speaker 7: trial was and how the crowds have to be controlled.
Speaker 7: Tell us more about how big a case this was
Speaker 7: and why, I mean.
Speaker 2: The trial had had national coverage and it was it
Speaker 2: was really i mean, for the time especially, it was
Speaker 2: really scandalous kind of material when they're going into real
Speaker 2: details about their sexual lives and their sexual practices, and
Speaker 2: as you said, they're talking about you know, the the
Speaker 2: the the oral sex practices that they're engaging in and
Speaker 2: things like that. I mean, at the time, that was
Speaker 2: that wasn't really something that people talked about for sure publicly,
Speaker 2: you know. I mean even now, people don't go around
Speaker 2: talking about it public So for them to be, you know,
Speaker 2: testifying about these things and trial, it was it was
Speaker 2: very very attractive as far as people wanting to hear
Speaker 2: this sort of thing and kind of being fascinated by it.
Speaker 2: And so the courtroom was packed for the testimony, both
Speaker 2: when Ray was testifying about it and also when Martha
Speaker 2: was testifying about it. I mean, they had accounts of people,
Speaker 2: you know, the crowds spilling over from the courtroom out
Speaker 2: into the halls and having to be cleared away, and
Speaker 2: police having to be called from a nearby police branch
Speaker 2: in order to help get the crowds away. So it
Speaker 2: was it was a very very popular trial, very scandalous
Speaker 2: kind of subject matter going.
Speaker 7: On, and especially fascinating and interesting to women, wasn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, A lot of the ones that were really trying
Speaker 2: to get in there apparently was women who were really
Speaker 2: interested in this. I mean, it was you know, as
Speaker 2: you can imagine the victims were of course women in
Speaker 2: you know, maybe these a lot of these women that
Speaker 2: were wanting to be there to hear about this firsthand
Speaker 2: and to see these people that had done these things.
Speaker 2: You know, they probably imagine themselves being victims. Perhaps, so
Speaker 2: there were a lot of the spectators in the courtroom
Speaker 2: were female with women.
Speaker 7: Now they had they got themselves lawyers and vigorous defense
Speaker 7: attitude towards their attorneys. But there was the issue of
Speaker 7: Michigan having the death penalty and New York not having it,
Speaker 7: definitely or vice versa. Pardon me, but so there was
Speaker 7: one some boneus contention at the trial that and it
Speaker 7: was part of the appeal. Of course, was denied. But
Speaker 7: the idea that they had there was a deal offered
Speaker 7: by the DA in terms of extradition to New York
Speaker 7: from Michigan. Just tell us about that, because it did
Speaker 7: have some bearing in these proceedings.
Speaker 2: Pray and Martha both insisted that part of the reason
Speaker 2: why they confessed to the crimes is because they were
Speaker 2: promised by the prosecutor, by the DA there in Chicago
Speaker 2: that if they did so, they would be able to
Speaker 2: stay there in Illinois and have their trial conducted there,
Speaker 2: as you said, there was no death penalty there and
Speaker 2: that they would not be extradited to New York where
Speaker 2: there was the death envie. So they both insisted that
Speaker 2: that was a key reason why they had confessed.
Speaker 7: Now, their behavior at trial unlike i'd say modern day,
Speaker 7: they were at the same table with the defense attorneys,
Speaker 7: and so what was their behavior, Like what kinds of
Speaker 7: things and affection towards each other did they exhibit at
Speaker 7: this trial.
Speaker 2: They exhibited a lot of affection for each other, you know,
Speaker 2: when they could you know, they obviously exchanged glances and
Speaker 2: things of it. You know, there's one kind of example
Speaker 2: would be when Martha was called to testify, on her
Speaker 2: way to the witness stands, she kind of went out
Speaker 2: of her way to walk over to Ray and give
Speaker 2: him a kiss before she went up there to take
Speaker 2: the witness stand. So they and there were other business is,
Speaker 2: you know, out in the hallway at the courthouse and
Speaker 2: things where they would embrace or kiss and you know,
Speaker 2: pronounce their love for each other and these sorts of things.
Speaker 2: So it was certainly something that continued through the trial,
Speaker 2: and it was something that was played up, you know,
Speaker 2: the the romance between the two of them. You know
Speaker 2: that in the name that they got the Lonely Hearts killers.
Speaker 2: So if they were dubbed in the media one of
Speaker 2: one of the one of the names that they used
Speaker 2: for them. So that was certainly going on. And you know,
Speaker 2: you mentioned the fact that they were both at the
Speaker 2: defense table, and one of the really striking things about
Speaker 2: the trial for me as a as an attorney is
Speaker 2: that they both had the same council representing them in
Speaker 2: the trial. Right, So it's it's it's something you would
Speaker 2: not see today, certainly not today because of the you know,
Speaker 2: the conflict of interests that's going on. I mean, they're
Speaker 2: both on trial of these women, and yet they have
Speaker 2: the same attorney representing them, and you know, that was
Speaker 2: something that was brought up during the trial and also
Speaker 2: on appeal. But strangely enough, this is this is how
Speaker 2: it went. So they both had the same attorney there
Speaker 2: during the proceedings.
Speaker 7: And they tried in vain to have this defense of
Speaker 7: this I guess partial amnesia diagnosed with hysteria amnesia type,
Speaker 7: but it was to no avail with the judge and jury.
Speaker 7: What happened as a in terms of their conviction and
Speaker 7: what was their reaction before we talk about post conviction
Speaker 7: and their relationship in prison.
Speaker 2: They raised Martha in particular, you know, tried to assert
Speaker 2: that she had had an amnesia event at the time
Speaker 2: of the killing, and so you know, therefore because of that,
Speaker 2: she didn't have the necessary criminal intent to you know,
Speaker 2: be convicted of a first degree murder. But that was
Speaker 2: not accepted by the jury. They rejected that. You know,
Speaker 2: of course, there was expert testimony on both sides about that,
Speaker 2: but ultimately they're both convicted for the for them or
Speaker 2: first degree murder. Uh, you know, they they didn't have
Speaker 2: a whole lot of emotion when it was when the
Speaker 2: verdicts were announced, but they were They were both sentenced
Speaker 2: to death. They were both sentenced to serve out their
Speaker 2: time preceding their execution at Sing Sing Prison, the you know,
Speaker 2: the famous prison there in New York, right, which was
Speaker 2: another even just another kind of added interesting layer to
Speaker 2: the case. I I thought the fact that they're you know,
Speaker 2: the famous prison institution where where the use of the
Speaker 2: electric chair really got it starred and was really famous
Speaker 2: for us.
Speaker 7: Right, it was interesting too that to while they were
Speaker 7: in prison. I just thought it was so strange that,
Speaker 7: especially given Ray's past, that Ray thought Martha was having
Speaker 7: an affair with a prison guard and really was very
Speaker 7: very upset about this, wasn't he.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he certainly became. And you know, you can say, well,
Speaker 2: is this something that he was doing trying to trying
Speaker 2: to play the system somehow to help with his appeal
Speaker 2: or something, or was he really under the impression that
Speaker 2: this was going on. But either way, he asserted that
Speaker 2: Martha was having an affair with one of the prison
Speaker 2: guards there and that you know, he was basically driving
Speaker 2: him crazy. He couldn't take it anymore, and he was
Speaker 2: waiting to drop his appeal so he could be executed
Speaker 2: sooner and all this kind of stuff. So so this, this,
Speaker 2: this did happen, you know it there may have been
Speaker 2: suspicions between them. They're spending all these you know, long
Speaker 2: hours and days and basically isolation there, and so you know,
Speaker 2: maybe naturally suspicion started rising up in their in their
Speaker 2: minds there. But yeah, this was kind of an interesting
Speaker 2: issue that happened while they were in prison, and you know,
Speaker 2: the details of it are all included there in the book.
Speaker 2: But they did eventually kind of reconcile after that, you know,
Speaker 2: it was all over and done with.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it seems incredible that she writes him a letter
Speaker 7: and and basically says that she he's a double crossing
Speaker 7: two timings skunk and he and he betrayed himself as
Speaker 7: a misunderstood boy and in the clutches of a female vampire.
Speaker 7: So she called herself a gullible fool. And yet their
Speaker 7: relationship was repaired to this incredible point before their executions.
Speaker 7: At the same time, what kind of relationship, if any,
Speaker 7: did he have with arr contact with his wife in Spain.
Speaker 2: Well, the whole time he was in thinking, he was
Speaker 2: sending letters back to his wife in Spain, and they
Speaker 2: you know, they were changing letters back and forth, very
Speaker 2: loving letters, both on his part and also on the
Speaker 2: part of his wife. So so he was he had
Speaker 2: kept up you know, apparently he had kept up his feelings,
Speaker 2: his love for his wife throughout the time that he
Speaker 2: also supposedly had this love for Martha as well. So
Speaker 2: he was he had basically, you know, two women going
Speaker 2: on at the same time there. And uh, and you know,
Speaker 2: that's really kind of one of the underlying themes I
Speaker 2: think of the story is you know what what extent
Speaker 2: there is of true love and what love and make
Speaker 2: someone do. Especially in the case of Marca, you know,
Speaker 2: how much was she manipulated by by Ray? You know
Speaker 2: how much was how much power did he have over
Speaker 2: her because of the feeling she had for him? And
Speaker 2: it was brought up in closing argument by their attorney
Speaker 2: at the trial. You know, he said that she became
Speaker 2: so wrapped up in Ray that that she was just
Speaker 2: like another hands to him that he could use to do,
Speaker 2: you know, whatever he wanted to do. And he kind
Speaker 2: of talked about how, you know, how kind of mysterious
Speaker 2: love can be. No one can really always explain why
Speaker 2: somebody falls in love for somebody, and that that this
Speaker 2: this kind of unexplainable love that that Martha had for
Speaker 2: for Ray had caused her to do these things, and
Speaker 2: that it had you know, it had kind of short
Speaker 2: circuited or overpowered her abilities and to reason, and and
Speaker 2: you know, think clearly a lease those sorts of things.
Speaker 2: And you know that comes up again shortly for their
Speaker 2: executions there in Sing Sing and the electriature Mars of
Speaker 2: the is the final statement, a written final statement that's
Speaker 2: quoted in the book and and you know, she says,
Speaker 2: my story is a love story. And she says, but
Speaker 2: only those tortured with love can understand what I need.
Speaker 2: And of course that's where the title of the book
Speaker 2: comes from, tortures as well. And uh, it's really, uh,
Speaker 2: it really is a great example I think of of this,
Speaker 2: uh you know, this this power that love can have
Speaker 2: over people, and you know, it's something that that happens
Speaker 2: over and over again. So even though this story, you know,
Speaker 2: took place a long time ago, primarily in the you know,
Speaker 2: the late forties, early fifties, you know, it's still strongly
Speaker 2: resonates today because you know, we still you can still
Speaker 2: see this all the time. You know, people and not
Speaker 2: just maybe your everyday life. You probably see maybe with
Speaker 2: people you know you can't quite understand why somebody's doing something,
Speaker 2: either with a certain person or not. But you know,
Speaker 2: you see it throughout history as well. So it's a
Speaker 2: story that continues all through the ages, that always has
Speaker 2: been and you know it always will.
Speaker 7: Yeah, there's so much that you include about their undying
Speaker 7: love for each other and passing of the poems, and
Speaker 7: then her final statement, delivered through her attorney Rosenberg, just
Speaker 7: that she said that I was I had a great
Speaker 7: love and I always will have. And they talked about
Speaker 7: I guess love everlasting in these letters and an incredible
Speaker 7: letter writing campaign between them. And she didn't sound like
Speaker 7: she was naive at all and that you are not intelligent,
Speaker 7: that she really understood what she had done and what
Speaker 7: she had she she wrote that sin is great. The
Speaker 7: sin is great, but so is the penalty. So she
Speaker 7: realized what was in store for her. And both of
Speaker 7: them went to their deaths with I guess if anything else,
Speaker 7: with some dignity in their minds.
Speaker 2: Yeah, as you said, they were both they both proclaimed
Speaker 2: their love for each other to the very end, and
Speaker 2: you know, they both they both went to their deaths,
Speaker 2: you know, happy to the extent that they knew that
Speaker 2: that they had this love for each other and that
Speaker 2: you know, perhaps it would perhaps it would continue the afterlife.
Speaker 2: But yeah, they certainly had this. And you know it's
Speaker 2: interesting that after their executions. Uh, this would have been
Speaker 2: you know, months after their executions.
Speaker 7: Uh.
Speaker 2: There was the the chief psychiatrists or for the defense
Speaker 2: at trial, the guy I mean, Richard Hoffman, all right,
Speaker 2: he uh, he came out with a story. He told
Speaker 2: the story to a true true crime detective magazine, this
Speaker 2: untold story of Martha, where he said that he had
Speaker 2: in his time with Martha that she had given him
Speaker 2: like a final statement or like an official final statement
Speaker 2: of what happened account of the crime, and in that
Speaker 2: she basically penned the murder of Janet Faye on Ray
Speaker 2: and said that she had been out of the room
Speaker 2: where Ray and Janet were and she heard she heard
Speaker 2: a cry, you know, yell cry out, and she came
Speaker 2: into the room and saw Ray murdering Janet, and she
Speaker 2: insisted that she had never hit Jannet with the hammer
Speaker 2: and that it was all Ray. And according to this
Speaker 2: this doctor often he had taken this account and showed
Speaker 2: it to Ray, and Ray had confirmed that it was
Speaker 2: the truth, but he had refused to refuse to, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, to go on record that it was truth,
Speaker 2: basically saying that if he was going to go to
Speaker 2: the share, Martha was going to go as well. So,
Speaker 2: you know, you know, it's kind of left to us
Speaker 2: to say, well, is that true or not? You know,
Speaker 2: what's the real truth in the story. And you know,
Speaker 2: you'll never really probably know because the only people that
Speaker 2: really know what happened, was Ray and Martha and Janet say,
Speaker 2: And obviously none of them are around him more. And
Speaker 2: you've got different stories from Ray and Martha all the
Speaker 2: time about about what happened, So so you know, at
Speaker 2: the end of the day, what exactly happened was kind
Speaker 2: of left to the imagination to an extent there.
Speaker 7: Her and you know, her involvement in terms of totality
Speaker 7: is in question, and the same with with with Janet Fay.
Speaker 7: But I think legally based on accomplice, being an accomplice
Speaker 7: to other murders and the covering up of murders too
Speaker 7: would be an accomplished So I think that there may
Speaker 7: be more to the story, and we'll never know the
Speaker 7: exact story, but certainly they were, as you write, listed
Speaker 7: as the number four crime duel in American history, So
Speaker 7: I think that's it's true.
Speaker 2: And just you know, one thing I wanted to point
Speaker 2: out too is you know, we talked about earlier about
Speaker 2: this accident that Ray had on on the ship where
Speaker 2: this door hit him in the head. And you know, nowadays,
Speaker 2: nowadays we know that that sort of thing, that sort
Speaker 2: of traumatic injury to the fernal lobe of the brain
Speaker 2: can drastically change someone's personality and behavior, and reports from
Speaker 2: Ray's family and people who knew him at the time
Speaker 2: said that that, Yeah, after this accident happened, he really
Speaker 2: changed a lot. His behavior changed a lot. He acted
Speaker 2: like a different person in a lot of ways. And
Speaker 2: when you look back at kind of what he did
Speaker 2: after that, uh, he really does. He really does display
Speaker 2: a lot of the characteristics of a psychopath. I mean,
Speaker 2: he has a he has this black lack of responsibility
Speaker 2: for his actions. He he had. He leads this kind
Speaker 2: of parasitic kind of lifestyle, preying on these vulnerable women.
Speaker 2: He's prone to these fits of anger and you know,
Speaker 2: he can become suddenly violent and these sorts of things.
Speaker 2: So he really did sort of change after this this
Speaker 2: accident and and really fall into this pattern of this
Speaker 2: kind of this psych psychopathic personality. And that would really
Speaker 2: lend itself to you know, what he did with Martha
Speaker 2: and kind of the influence he had over her and
Speaker 2: how he kind of sucked her in into this darkness,
Speaker 2: you know, basically because before he before met Martha and
Speaker 2: met Ray, I mean, she didn't have any kind of
Speaker 2: legal issues, legal problems, she didn't have any kind of
Speaker 2: record or anything. So you know, it looks like he
Speaker 2: kind of sucked her into this and drove her to
Speaker 2: do these things.
Speaker 7: He was certainly gained that confidence with his voodoo and
Speaker 7: what he believed were his successes as a result of
Speaker 7: that black magic. And I think he had that confidence
Speaker 7: right to the very end, even believing that he might
Speaker 7: somehow get out of the bund that he was was
Speaker 7: in facing execution. I want to thank you very much
Speaker 7: JT for coming on and talking about Tortured with Love,
Speaker 7: of the true crime romance of the Lonely Hearts Killers.
Speaker 7: It's been a fascinating interview, certainly for those that might
Speaker 7: want to take a look at your other work. Do
Speaker 7: you have a website and or is there a Facebook
Speaker 7: page they might take a look at.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have both. I have. My website is JT.
Speaker 2: Hunter dot org dot org. I'm also on Facebook JT.
Speaker 2: Hunter True Crime author on Facebook, also on Twitter on
Speaker 2: another social media JTA Each True Crime as well, So
Speaker 2: any of those places please check me out.
Speaker 7: Thank you very much, JT. You have a great evening.
Speaker 7: Thank you for this. Good night.
Speaker 2: Thanks then, I enjoyed it. Take care, good night.