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Speaker 1: Forward slash the Big for Society and now let's get
Speaker 1: on with the show. All right, Big for Society, But
Speaker 1: the privilege of talking to Ray Harwood today. You may
Speaker 1: know him from Bigfoot Quest magazine. He's an individual that
Speaker 1: heads that up. But welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Ray.
Speaker 1: How's it going man?
Speaker 2: Oh? Really good? Thanks. I appreciate your call and interview.
Speaker 1: Absolutely yeah, I've been looking forward to to chatting with you.
Speaker 1: I know you've gotten many many years in the Bigfoot subject,
Speaker 1: but you know, when I talked to someone that's been
Speaker 1: who's really into it, like yourself. I always like to know,
Speaker 1: you know, what was it that first got you into
Speaker 1: this subject to begin with.
Speaker 3: Okay, my journey into the Bigfoot world was kind of
Speaker 3: in different segments. It started out with probably In Search
Speaker 3: of Bigfoot with if you remember, with Leonard Nimoy, and
Speaker 3: that was that came out in nineteen eighty six, nineteen
Speaker 3: seventy six, and you know, they did some of the
Speaker 3: some of the major Bigfoot findings at the time. And
Speaker 3: then of course movies like Legends, Boggy Creek and things
Speaker 3: like that, you know that most people saw. And then
Speaker 3: when I was a kid, my my father used to
Speaker 3: take us camping quite a bit. And we were camping
Speaker 3: up up in the Last and National Forest, which is
Speaker 3: a volcanic area where there's lava flows and lava tubes
Speaker 3: and Thomas and Obsidian, all these igneous type volcanic type
Speaker 3: flows and stuff. And they have a park there and
Speaker 3: we were camping in there and we heard these ungodly
Speaker 3: howls and I remember my father thinking they maybe mountain
Speaker 3: lions or something like that. And since I've heard mountain
Speaker 3: lions like you know, on video or in recordings and
Speaker 3: even in real life, and it didn't sound anything like
Speaker 3: these these things. Whatever it was had huge lungs almost
Speaker 3: across between some kind of like when you hear an
Speaker 3: elk screen with the whistles, but then you'd hear deep.
Speaker 2: Howls, and it was so loud.
Speaker 3: It was just echoing off these volcanic lava tubes and
Speaker 3: canyons throughout that area.
Speaker 2: And that was the first.
Speaker 3: Time I I had any kind of experience, and at
Speaker 3: the time I didn't know or have any idea. I
Speaker 3: just assumed it was mountain lions until I actually heard them,
Speaker 3: and then I realized it must have been something different.
Speaker 3: And then I had a professor in college, I was
Speaker 3: an archaeology student and forensic anthropology.
Speaker 2: And one of my.
Speaker 3: Professors was a what they call a lithics specialist or
Speaker 3: stone tool specialist that had studied in France under another
Speaker 3: lithic specialist, one of the pioneers of that science named
Speaker 3: Francois Boards. So Clay Singer came back in the sixties
Speaker 3: from that experience, and his expertise was in paleolithics, and
Speaker 3: which is the Old Stone Age, mesolithics which is the
Speaker 3: Middle Stone Age, and then of course the neolithics, which
Speaker 3: is the New Stone Age, and I got sort of
Speaker 3: put under his wing and learned about stone tools and
Speaker 3: things like that, and that was my specialty within a
Speaker 3: subcategory of archaeology in any case, One day he had
Speaker 3: his nineteen sixty seven Volkswagen bug and he drove myself
Speaker 3: and himself out to the Mojave Desert to a place
Speaker 3: called Urimo, where they have a place called the Calico
Speaker 3: Early Man Site or Calico Ghost Town, and there's an
Speaker 3: archaeological site there that people growing up in the nineteen
Speaker 3: sixties would know of Richard Leaky and Lewis Leaky. They
Speaker 3: always had PBS specials about digging up artifacts and ancient
Speaker 3: skeletal remains.
Speaker 2: In the Oldovai Gorge in Africa and things like that.
Speaker 3: So this Calico site had stone tools that allegedly predated
Speaker 3: human occupation in.
Speaker 2: The New World.
Speaker 3: And in the nineteen sixties and seventies, the main course
Speaker 3: of archaeology in America was finding what they call pre
Speaker 3: Clovis artifacts, which was the Clovis migration was twelve thousand
Speaker 3: years ago across the Bearing Straits, and they the predominant
Speaker 3: thought at the time is that there was no pre
Speaker 3: Clovis individuals in the United States or what was you know,
Speaker 3: the American continent, which would include South America and you
Speaker 3: up through Canada to Alaska. And so there was what
Speaker 3: they called the bird soul hypothesis where Clovis man came
Speaker 3: across the bearing Land Land Bridge and came down the
Speaker 3: west coast of Alaska and Canada into the New World.
Speaker 2: And that's the that was the predominant theory about how
Speaker 2: the Native Americans came in.
Speaker 3: And so in that respect, the Calico site pre dated
Speaker 3: twelve thousand years or pre Clovis by like almost two
Speaker 3: hundred thousand years, which didn't make sense and fit into
Speaker 3: the archaeological paradigm. So it was my conception at the
Speaker 3: time that it was pre Homo sapien in the United States,
Speaker 3: in the America, but it wasn't humans. It was it
Speaker 3: was like a relict hormonoid or something of that sort.
Speaker 3: And I was thinking, after seeing the Patterson Ginlin film
Speaker 3: and the in search of that perhaps what these bigfoot
Speaker 3: or a sasquatch may have been the ones that were
Speaker 3: working stone into these paleolithic hand axes at the Calico site.
Speaker 3: And if you google Calico Early Man site, you look
Speaker 3: at the stone tools you'll see they're obviously you know, crafted.
Speaker 3: They detached flakes of this flint into a hand act
Speaker 3: shaped forms. And at the time it was at the
Speaker 3: shore of the Mannix Lake in that area.
Speaker 2: It wasn't the Mojave Desert back then.
Speaker 3: It was you know, a lake with you know, everything
Speaker 3: that goes along with that environment. So after that, I
Speaker 3: didn't think much of it until I was taking a
Speaker 3: vacation at the Yosemite National Park and on the way in,
Speaker 3: we stopped at a place called View Lodge, which is
Speaker 3: in the canyon leading up into one of the entries
Speaker 3: into the park, and we were taking a hike and
Speaker 3: I crossed a little stream bed that was predominant it
Speaker 3: was mostly dry, and then we were climbing up some
Speaker 3: boulders where we found what they call bedrock mortars and
Speaker 3: what those are there a mortar and pestle that the
Speaker 3: Native Americans used to grind their acre and sage seeds
Speaker 3: and whatnot. And they're deep cylindrical holes in the massive
Speaker 3: boulders or even in the bedrock which is granite, and
Speaker 3: then used a pestle, an elongated piece of granite that's
Speaker 3: shaped in the cylindrical form with round edges ends that
Speaker 3: they would pulverize and grind these food stuffs.
Speaker 2: Well, one of these holes.
Speaker 3: Over time, the holes filled with pine needles and rotten
Speaker 3: leaves and dirt, and then water gets in them and
Speaker 3: there you can still see them, but they're covered up.
Speaker 2: Well, one of these holes had.
Speaker 3: Been dug out and the pestils put into the mortar,
Speaker 3: and something had been grinding something in there. And at
Speaker 3: first I assumed it was someone showing someone how they
Speaker 3: worked and things like that, whom I have been hiking
Speaker 3: in the area.
Speaker 2: But it was off trail. It was just busting brush.
Speaker 3: And after seeing that, we went back towards our vehicle,
Speaker 3: and when we passed the dry creek bed again in
Speaker 3: the sand, I saw the classic bigfoot footprints in the sand,
Speaker 3: and of course from the television programs and whatnot, Oh
Speaker 3: my gosh, this this really does exist. To quote Bob Gimlin,
Speaker 3: I looked, and here's these big footprints. And the strange
Speaker 3: thing about them. At the time, it looked to me
Speaker 3: like whatever it was, the sasquatch had been running down
Speaker 3: the creek and then it's and where the footprints stopped
Speaker 3: was a mass of vegetation like a briar, and there
Speaker 3: was I could not get through it. But you know,
Speaker 3: it's just like deer and elk and moose and things.
Speaker 3: They can hit a briar like that and move through
Speaker 3: without any problem, where a human we'll get.
Speaker 2: All ripped up, hesitate and not be able to go through.
Speaker 3: But whatever this, I think a bigfoot could not have
Speaker 3: gotten through. I mean would have just gone through like
Speaker 3: a deer or an elk, but a human could not
Speaker 3: have done it. But the feet were bare feet and
Speaker 3: they were large. But I had no idea at the time.
Speaker 3: I hadn't researched it. I had no idea what the
Speaker 3: mid tarsel break was, or the wide heels, or the
Speaker 3: you know, the different types of toes. I didn't know
Speaker 3: any of that sort of thing. I just knew these
Speaker 3: were large footprints and they had no nails like a
Speaker 3: human footprint, and it wasn't in an area where humans
Speaker 3: would be, you know, barefoot swimming or anything like that anyway,
Speaker 3: So that was interesting. So I went back later and
Speaker 3: tried to cast it. But I didn't use plaster. I
Speaker 3: used to cement. So I filled the things and when
Speaker 3: they dried, I pulled them out and they just pretty
Speaker 3: much broke apart, so I didn't really have any castings,
Speaker 3: but I did, you know, have a videotape of the
Speaker 3: whole thing. And the interesting part about these footprints is
Speaker 3: at one point I followed the footprints backwards away from
Speaker 3: the brier, and I found one area where there was
Speaker 3: defecation all around this area beneath a boulder, and in
Speaker 3: one spot you could see two footprints and then scat
Speaker 3: right underneath it, like the thing was squatting right there
Speaker 3: and left imprints of the feet and the scat. So
Speaker 3: and I haven't heard anyone finding that. And the weird
Speaker 3: thing about the scat was it was filled with berry seeds,
Speaker 3: like you know, almost like you know, the big berry
Speaker 3: seeds you see like from huckleberries or that sort of thing.
Speaker 3: And then let's see, I didn't really think much about
Speaker 3: it after that. I thought it was interesting, and I
Speaker 3: was talking to a or stranger at the time and
Speaker 3: he said, well, maybe you saw a bear. And my
Speaker 3: answer was, well, maybe people that see bear are really
Speaker 3: saying a sasquatch and they're mistaking it for a bear.
Speaker 2: But that's how that went.
Speaker 3: And then later when I was in college at the
Speaker 3: Archaeological Research Center. One of the professors invited me up
Speaker 3: to the Piute Reservation. Is at the time, I was
Speaker 3: doing a lot of replicative systems analysis or replicating stone
Speaker 3: tools that's in the in the in the verbiage would
Speaker 3: be flint napping, taking a flint and the silica material
Speaker 3: like obsidian and experimenting with the reduction into usable pieces
Speaker 3: and then into arrowheads of project all points or stone
Speaker 3: axes and whatnot. So they brought me up to the
Speaker 3: Pilot Reservations to reintroduce that technology to the Native Americans
Speaker 3: that lived along a id and flow to as a
Speaker 3: cultural like a reculturization type of thing.
Speaker 2: So I went up there and I did that.
Speaker 3: One thing I noticed is on one of the trips,
Speaker 3: they brought me up to an area where they did
Speaker 3: their traditional collecting of pinion nuts. And so we went
Speaker 3: up and there was wikiips where that are similar to
Speaker 3: the sasquatch structures, and they would stay in those during
Speaker 3: this collection of the pinion nuts.
Speaker 2: And you could.
Speaker 3: See where old wikiips had rotted away. So they've been
Speaker 3: doing this for generations. And one of the things they
Speaker 3: would do is take this this pine bough and make
Speaker 3: a whip and they would whip the trees to get
Speaker 3: the opinion pine cones to fall, and at the same
Speaker 3: time the nuts would fly out of the cones. Quite
Speaker 3: a bit of land on these tarps aung with some
Speaker 3: large pine pine grubs known as pohogi, and the kids
Speaker 3: would eat those. And then later I found that I
Speaker 3: was finding these similar whips away from their traditional collecting areas,
Speaker 3: and I attributed that to Sasquatch, and I was thinking
Speaker 3: that they were they were doing the same sort of thing,
Speaker 3: and also they use it to knock down birds and
Speaker 3: nests to get eggs and baby birds or whatever, and
Speaker 3: squirrels for for food stuffs. And then I don't remember
Speaker 3: anything else in that California area except for petroglyphs that
Speaker 3: you know showed sausquatch.
Speaker 1: Are you talking about the Tuley River petroglyphs.
Speaker 3: The Tuley River petroglyphs were, as the crow flies, very
Speaker 3: close to where I was there in Yosemite. So and
Speaker 3: that was the Yeah, the Tuley River was okay.
Speaker 1: Where there are other ones that you knew of that
Speaker 1: also had the same artwork in them.
Speaker 3: Similar I've seen petroglyphs that have just the large feet
Speaker 3: that are obviously, you know, they're not human looking feet.
Speaker 3: And I've seen, you know, the ones that look you
Speaker 3: don't really know if they're aliens or humans or that
Speaker 3: kind of petroglyphs, And yeah, that's true. And then that's
Speaker 3: that's all I can remember. Back then, I didn't really
Speaker 3: have any other experiences. But then so then there was
Speaker 3: a long break where I had no real experiences like that,
Speaker 3: and then about twelve years ago I moved to northern
Speaker 3: Idaho and the Idaho Panhandle, and right away I noticed
Speaker 3: something that was interesting. I went to the area where
Speaker 3: the coconey salmon die off at Lake Cortlaine, and you
Speaker 3: go up there because the bald eagles come in and
Speaker 3: eat those dying coconut salmon, and then they the salmon
Speaker 3: after they spawn naturally die off, but before they die
Speaker 3: there's still you know, fresh and edible, edible, so the
Speaker 3: the bald eagles come and swoop down and knock them.
Speaker 2: On the head and when they get.
Speaker 3: Slow enough the fish that is, then the salmon's then
Speaker 3: the eagles pick off the salmon and eat them. But
Speaker 3: there's still so many of them that the the pea
Speaker 3: rock beaches on the edge of the lake are covered
Speaker 3: with probably four inches of fish, probably six foot wide,
Speaker 3: and then they float off into the end of.
Speaker 2: The lake during this die off.
Speaker 3: And while I was looking at that, I found a footprint,
Speaker 3: So I thought that was interesting. So along I went
Speaker 3: up the hill from the from the beach there, and
Speaker 3: I noticed that there was what they call in the
Speaker 3: Olympic Project, they had what they thought were nests. And
Speaker 3: I found something similar just above the salmon die off
Speaker 3: there at the Lake Corlane one year. So that was
Speaker 3: a footprint, along with of course a natural food seasonal
Speaker 3: food gathering area, and then what looked to me like
Speaker 3: the same type of nests they had in the Olympic Project,
Speaker 3: and then the same same.
Speaker 2: Sort of scenario.
Speaker 3: I was a huckleberry picking on the Ico would be
Speaker 3: the east side of the Idaho Panhandle, where I came
Speaker 3: upon what looked like a footprint in the dust. It's
Speaker 3: kind of an interesting type of substrate here they have
Speaker 3: where the ground is very hard but when Mount Saint
Speaker 3: Helen's went off years back, all the ash came down
Speaker 3: and created like a almost like a fine sol or,
Speaker 3: like an ash soil that still sits on top of
Speaker 3: these hard pants.
Speaker 2: And so when you get a footprint.
Speaker 3: You can see the footprint, but you could never cast
Speaker 3: it because it's it's just in the dust. So I
Speaker 3: was huckleberry picking and I saw one of these footprints
Speaker 3: again a seasonal food stuff that would be good for
Speaker 3: you know, bear, saucequatch, humans.
Speaker 2: And that sort of thing.
Speaker 3: So anyway, I poked my head up after seeing the print,
Speaker 3: and there was an old man there and we both
Speaker 3: thought each other was an animal, and both kind of
Speaker 3: jumped up. It startled, and I said, boy, did you
Speaker 3: see the size of these bear prints? And he says, ah, yeah,
Speaker 3: you think they're bear?
Speaker 2: Huh? And I says, you know, I didn't want to.
Speaker 3: I didn't want to get into a conversation because if
Speaker 3: someone you know isn't in the bigfoot community, you get
Speaker 3: kind of some strange looks if you think, oh it's
Speaker 3: you know, it's a saucequatch.
Speaker 2: But he knew.
Speaker 3: And then in the same area I was camping, and
Speaker 3: it was early in the morning. I was I had
Speaker 3: a campfire going, and I was making some of the
Speaker 3: instant pancakes and whatnot on my cole Mi stove, and
Speaker 3: like a Chevy, you know, a modified Chevy pickup truck
Speaker 3: with the big tires pulls up.
Speaker 2: And a younger guy.
Speaker 3: Of course, at my age, everyone's younger, but a guy
Speaker 3: into probably his thirties pulled up. And he came up
Speaker 3: and he wanted to chat for a while, and I
Speaker 3: was talking with him, and he said that he had
Speaker 3: been camping up a little bit higher up, which would
Speaker 3: be northeast of where I was camping. And he said
Speaker 3: that he during the night they heard those bellowing howls
Speaker 3: and you know, all sorts of what you know, like
Speaker 3: the Ron Moorhead Sierra sounds type vocalisms and things really
Speaker 3: loud and crashing together rocks and clanking rocks, and a
Speaker 3: lot of things attributed to what you know, what the
Speaker 3: Bigfoot community attributes to sasquatch. So he said, you know,
Speaker 3: they were all really nervous and things like that.
Speaker 2: So he said he woke up.
Speaker 3: In the morning and of the original five people in
Speaker 3: the camp, he was the only one left. So they
Speaker 3: all got scared and left in the night. So first
Speaker 3: thing in the morning he came down the hill and
Speaker 3: that was the first one he saw. So he pulled
Speaker 3: into my camp and was He started out by saying,
Speaker 3: you know, how do you feel about sasquatch. And I
Speaker 3: had an old leyandrover with sasquatch stickers all over, so
Speaker 3: I think he pretty much knew. But so he told
Speaker 3: me the story about the yelling and him been the
Speaker 3: last one left. But he also added that the year before,
Speaker 3: during deer season, he had gone up a trail to
Speaker 3: his hunting hunting blind, and while he was headed for
Speaker 3: his tree, it was a tree stand, and he said,
Speaker 3: on the way to the tree stand, he saw in
Speaker 3: the dust these what looked like bigfoot tracks. So he's
Speaker 3: he said, he took note of it, and he says
Speaker 3: when he was in a hurry to get to his
Speaker 3: tree stand, he says, tonight, when I come out of here,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna, you know, get photographs and and put down
Speaker 3: something to get size, you know, some kind of measurement,
Speaker 3: he says. Then he finished hunting, he went back down.
Speaker 3: He left a little early because he was excited about
Speaker 3: the tracks, and he said when he got there, the
Speaker 3: tracks were gone, but it looked like what he described
Speaker 3: as maybe a big hairy arm just went and wiped
Speaker 3: the tracks away, which I thought was really interesting. And
Speaker 3: in that same area, I think it was a year
Speaker 3: after that I was hunting with someone from Warwick the
Speaker 3: deer season and we're coming up just about the same
Speaker 3: area as the huckleberries. When I was I was hit
Speaker 3: by an enormous mushroom or toadstool, one of those things
Speaker 3: type of thing, right right in the neck. So, you know,
Speaker 3: I just the guy, the guy I was hunting with,
Speaker 3: was in front of me, so I know he didn't
Speaker 3: throw it, so it came down from from somewhere up above.
Speaker 3: But you know, a mushroom isn't something that can fall
Speaker 3: out of a tree. A mushroom has to be you know,
Speaker 3: pulled out of the ground and actually thrown. And there
Speaker 3: there wasn't any other cars or any sort of thing
Speaker 3: in the area, so that was kind of a strange thing.
Speaker 3: And then in that area that same hunting season, we
Speaker 3: went up. We went up really early and it was
Speaker 3: still dark and it was it was really cold.
Speaker 2: And we were on a quad.
Speaker 3: We took the quad up this dirt road until we
Speaker 3: found like a subsidiary or secondary trail that went upward
Speaker 3: and to the west, so we went up that quite
Speaker 3: a way and then we sat and waited. We were
Speaker 3: sitting there against a tree, waiting for the sun to rise, and.
Speaker 2: When the sun rose, that was a good spot.
Speaker 3: Because you had a it was almost like a theater
Speaker 3: where you could see the hole, this whole heelside that
Speaker 3: had game trails on it and whatnot. So we were
Speaker 3: waiting for the sun to ride to see that, and
Speaker 3: while it was still dark, we saw another quad coming
Speaker 3: up that small trail, and when it got close, a
Speaker 3: lady got off with a flashlight and came up and
Speaker 3: said she was a game warden and that we were
Speaker 3: to leave the area because they'd seen a grizzly bear,
Speaker 3: which she described, you know, this emidst grizzly bear, and
Speaker 3: she said it was a collar grizzly bear, which means
Speaker 3: it has a tracking device where it. You know, got
Speaker 3: out of Yellowstone Park and meandered up into North Idaho anyway,
Speaker 3: so we decided to get out of there. We both
Speaker 3: had only bolt action rifles, so it wouldn't do much
Speaker 3: good against a charging grizzly bear in the dark. So
Speaker 3: we hid down the hill and we got to about
Speaker 3: halfway to the quad, and there was another quad there
Speaker 3: and this guy was another government type guy, and he
Speaker 3: had camouflage on and he had a fifty caliber type
Speaker 3: sniper rifle, which was really huge for someone that you
Speaker 3: know in the game warden anyway, he was pretty much
Speaker 3: like the ex military or military type guy, so that
Speaker 3: was strange.
Speaker 2: So we walked kept walking.
Speaker 3: We got to the quad and there was two other
Speaker 3: hunters down there at the time, a man and his son,
Speaker 3: and he said to us, he says, so, did you
Speaker 3: guys get told to leave because of the grizzly bear?
Speaker 3: And we said yes, and he said he laughed and said,
Speaker 3: you really think it was a grizzly bear? And you know,
Speaker 3: we didn't think of anything of it. Yeah, that's why
Speaker 3: we left so fast. And he said, man, I got
Speaker 3: I was so close. I could smell the thing. It
Speaker 3: stunk so bad. Of course, I think probably grizzly bears
Speaker 3: don't smell too good either, I mean, with all that
Speaker 3: rodney flesh and their teeth and.
Speaker 2: Whatnot, and they don't wipe their butts. But I didn't
Speaker 2: think of it at the time.
Speaker 3: But his questioning line is that he thought it was
Speaker 3: a sasquatch, And I think that it could be one
Speaker 3: of those things where the government launch there is one
Speaker 3: there and they don't want you to know about it
Speaker 3: or shoot it or something like that.
Speaker 2: So that was a really strange occurrence.
Speaker 3: And then see after that, hadn't seen anything for quite
Speaker 3: a while, and that's when I started riding horses in Montana.
Speaker 3: And so I was riding horses in Montana and they
Speaker 3: came across some boulders that had been pulled from the
Speaker 3: ground and I'm talking three to five hundred pound boulders
Speaker 3: pulled from the ground and used to pulverize these logs.
Speaker 3: And I've seen that about three times there where the
Speaker 3: boulders were pulled out of the ground, you can still
Speaker 3: see their roots growing around the orifice where they pulled
Speaker 3: out the boulder deep holes and then taking.
Speaker 2: These boulders and just smashed the pieces.
Speaker 3: Out of out of out of these logs and pulverizing
Speaker 3: them to get either to the inner bark or because
Speaker 3: they were having a anger fit or something like that.
Speaker 2: The other thing I saw on.
Speaker 3: Horseback was hollow logs that had been split and then
Speaker 3: pride open with these long poles, like the tips of
Speaker 3: lodge pole pines were taken off and stripped of sticks
Speaker 3: and bark, taking.
Speaker 2: These lodge pole pine boughs.
Speaker 3: And pride open these hollow logs and I saw that
Speaker 3: twice and it was it looked like a group effort
Speaker 3: because there was like three poles on each side and
Speaker 3: then the logs just you know, pulled apart. And I
Speaker 3: don't know if there was maybe a raccoon or a
Speaker 3: skunk inside that they were trying to get added, but
Speaker 3: you could tell that there was a group for splitting
Speaker 3: these logs, and it was We're on horseback off trail,
Speaker 3: so not likely anyone would be messing around with that.
Speaker 3: So I attributed it to sasquatch because there's no animals
Speaker 3: that do that. And the other thing is I found
Speaker 3: the same This was a long period of time. We
Speaker 3: rode quite a few times up near the Bob Marshall
Speaker 3: Wilderness and the Flathead Lake in that area, and there's
Speaker 3: a no man's land out there, and we would ride
Speaker 3: along there and find these things. I found on the
Speaker 3: border between North Idaho and Montana. I found ant hills.
Speaker 2: They have big.
Speaker 3: Mounds, ant mounds, and I found ant mounds with completely
Speaker 3: straight like arrow shaft reads stuck in the ant whole
Speaker 3: main orifice where it's like. In nineteen sixty, Jane Goodall
Speaker 3: discovered chimp andsies making and using these rods to catch
Speaker 3: ants and termites, so stone tool use among apes. She
Speaker 3: discovered that, and I found the same thing out in
Speaker 3: North Idaho and North Montana, which was interesting. And all
Speaker 3: these things I'm telling you I documented on films. I have,
Speaker 3: you know, photographs of all these things. And then of
Speaker 3: course I found on that same in that same area,
Speaker 3: I found a club that looked like had been used
Speaker 3: to club animals, maybe a tree knocking, but it was
Speaker 3: obviously modified.
Speaker 2: And then let's see, I've seen trail glyphs in the
Speaker 2: in the areas.
Speaker 3: And I don't know how how how your listeners feel
Speaker 3: about the glyphs, but I found some pretty amazing, uh
Speaker 3: looking glyphs. And I was speaking to uh Marie Dumont
Speaker 3: in Florida, who sent me photos of the glyphs they
Speaker 3: find out in that in that area, and they're equally
Speaker 3: or more advanced than the ones we find here.
Speaker 2: And usually there are three three sticks in a row.
Speaker 3: And then there's one glyph that I see quite often,
Speaker 3: which is like a capital letter A, and shoot, there's
Speaker 3: others on rock stacking and things like that. I found
Speaker 3: all those tree breaks like everyone's talking about. And then
Speaker 3: I've also found frozen lakes that it looks like boulders
Speaker 3: have been thrown across the lake. And I've been told
Speaker 3: that the reason this is is the sasquatch wants to
Speaker 3: cross the lake and he's testing it for strength, to
Speaker 3: see if he can hold up his weight, so he
Speaker 3: throw these boulders across these frozen lakes. And if you
Speaker 3: live where it's where it freezes and you try to
Speaker 3: remove a rock from a frozen ground, moving a boulder
Speaker 3: from a frozen ground is impossible for ninety nine percent
Speaker 3: of humans. But in any case, that's sort of the
Speaker 3: background I've seen. I've found structures and in Montana, when
Speaker 3: you ride along the Flathead Lake in the winter, the
Speaker 3: lake is so low that there's about a mile of
Speaker 3: mudflat around certain parts of the lake lake mudflats, and
Speaker 3: in this mud I've seen structures which are mostly big
Speaker 3: logs with smaller driftwood type logs creating like the structure
Speaker 3: or the you know, whatever they use them for if
Speaker 3: they're a hunting blind, or to obscure themselves or to
Speaker 3: mark territory what. I've heard a lot of different stories
Speaker 3: about these, but in any case, out in those mudflats,
Speaker 3: you can see footprints, you can see structures, that sort
Speaker 3: of thing.
Speaker 2: And let's see.
Speaker 3: In any case, that's sort of like my background and
Speaker 3: my actual encounters.
Speaker 2: I've had all three, you.
Speaker 3: Know, of the BFRO type classification of of encounters. Class
Speaker 3: A would be a visual, Class B would be you know,
Speaker 3: footprints and vocalizations, tree branches, structures and that sort of thing,
Speaker 3: and then class C would be someone else telling you
Speaker 3: about these things that you you know, that's a good source.
Speaker 3: So yeah, anyway, and when I see when I do
Speaker 3: document these things, I do check the websites to find
Speaker 3: out if there's been encounters and whatnot, just to bolster
Speaker 3: the account to see if I'm on the right track.
Speaker 3: But the so what what I the first one I
Speaker 3: saw this isn't a visual, but this is the auditory.
Speaker 2: And what happened.
Speaker 3: I was, I was deer hunting, and this is in
Speaker 3: North Idaho, and I was up on a cliff and
Speaker 3: I saw like this valley of dried bones. I could
Speaker 3: see skeletons down there, down this really steep embankment. So anyway,
Speaker 3: I decided to check it out, and beneath one tree
Speaker 3: there was you know, a bone scatter, and I could
Speaker 3: tell by looking. One one was a horse because it
Speaker 3: still had some of its hair on it, And in
Speaker 3: that same area was an elk and a deer. And
Speaker 3: then when I started going down deeper in the canyon,
Speaker 3: I found this place where.
Speaker 2: Something had picked up these massive logs.
Speaker 3: Something that I couldn't even budge, and smashed.
Speaker 2: Animals to death with this log.
Speaker 3: And the animals, now in a skeletal form, were pinned
Speaker 3: underneath these logs, and in some cases it's a macabre
Speaker 3: looking like they were, you know, trying to escape and
Speaker 3: they were eating. And this was very strange. So I
Speaker 3: got my camera out and I took some photos. I
Speaker 3: do have photo these photos of these macabre sites. And
Speaker 3: the strange thing is about when I was taking pictures
Speaker 3: of this one elk that have been pinned in by
Speaker 3: this big log, and these aren't like sections of logs,
Speaker 3: these are you know, full trees that are down. So
Speaker 3: in any case, I was taking pictures and I heard
Speaker 3: what people described as the bipedal crunch.
Speaker 2: Sound in the woods, like foot and foot and foot.
Speaker 3: Real heavy, not trying to hide it's it's not trying
Speaker 3: to be stealth with it. Sound crunches through the woods
Speaker 3: coming at me. From an adjacment. I was like on
Speaker 3: a plateau, on this real steep embankment, and there was
Speaker 3: like three like you would say arroyos or like mini
Speaker 3: canyons that were coming in from dry creeks that met
Speaker 3: like in a.
Speaker 2: Confluence, right just below where I was. And in one of.
Speaker 3: These little canyons, something was coming down from up above
Speaker 3: down this canyon towards me. And I think it's what
Speaker 3: Robert Leiderman experienced something similar in his Bluff Creek Project book,
Speaker 3: where he was being like shadowed, and it was the
Speaker 3: same sort of experience.
Speaker 2: I could hear it and then when I.
Speaker 3: Stopped to listen, it would stop, and then I'd start,
Speaker 3: you know, walking around and stuff, and I could hear
Speaker 3: it start again.
Speaker 2: So I thought to myself, Okay.
Speaker 3: Something's going to come out from this canyon, and it's
Speaker 3: going to be right in front of me. So I
Speaker 3: had to make a choice, get my rifle or get
Speaker 3: my camera or run. Well, I looked at I chose
Speaker 3: what was behind box number three. So and I think
Speaker 3: that's the problem with a lot of big foot encounters
Speaker 3: is people don't we want to see what's coming out
Speaker 3: of that other canyon.
Speaker 2: Robert Liederman in.
Speaker 3: His book The Bluff Bluff Creek Project, made the same
Speaker 3: decision as I did. He was faced where, Okay, whatever's
Speaker 3: whatever's making this noise is going to come out on
Speaker 3: the trail right in front of me. So he chose
Speaker 3: to get out of there, and I made the same choice.
Speaker 3: The problem is getting up the steep canyon was a
Speaker 3: lot harder than going down.
Speaker 2: So I had my camera.
Speaker 3: This was like a you know, regular heavy camera around
Speaker 3: my neck, and then I had my rifle. And then
Speaker 3: I started going up, and I had a pistol on
Speaker 3: my hip, so it kept pulling my pants down because
Speaker 3: it was like so heavy.
Speaker 2: So I'm like completely not in.
Speaker 3: My element going up this hill, and I kept falling
Speaker 3: onto my hands, but the pine needles were just like
Speaker 3: sticking in my hands. I was going so fast, and
Speaker 3: then I'd hit you know, you know, cobbles and and
Speaker 3: you know, rocks and whatnot. And then I finally got
Speaker 3: up to a plateau where I felt fairly safe, and
Speaker 3: I just stood there and watched and whatever it did,
Speaker 3: whatever it was, if it did come out, it was
Speaker 3: I couldn't see it from where.
Speaker 2: I was, but you know, that was really scary. But
Speaker 2: it was really heavy.
Speaker 3: And I've heard moose coming through the woods and actually
Speaker 3: had you know, moose come right out in.
Speaker 2: Front of me. And this didn't sound like a moose.
Speaker 2: A moose sounds just like a horse. You know.
Speaker 3: They do the same type of winnies and the snorts,
Speaker 3: and you know, they crush right through. They just go
Speaker 3: right through, you know whatever, and make the same sort
Speaker 3: of crushing noise. But quadrupeds and bipeds do sound really different.
Speaker 2: Because I used to wonder, well, how do they know
Speaker 2: it was a biped?
Speaker 3: But when you hear the difference between a quadruped moving
Speaker 3: through the forest and a biped moving through the point forest,
Speaker 3: that does make a big difference.
Speaker 2: So that was one of the stranger things.
Speaker 3: So then the other occurrence would be Okay, this would.
Speaker 2: Be back in Montana. It was snowing and there was
Speaker 2: a blizzard.
Speaker 3: So for some reason, the people I were with decided
Speaker 3: they wanted to go to this fish chery above and
Speaker 3: across I can't remember the name of the valley, but anyway,
Speaker 3: it was sort of off where Flathead River flows.
Speaker 2: So we went and we.
Speaker 3: Saw the fish archery and on the way out we saw,
Speaker 3: you know, one of the we hiked around a little
Speaker 3: bit because we had snow shoes, and we found a
Speaker 3: one of the structures, and it was a little bit
Speaker 3: different than anything we'd seen there in Montana because the
Speaker 3: ones in Montana that I saw whereas a structure built
Speaker 3: around using a tree as the center, tent post type
Speaker 3: of thing, you know, branches set up against a tree,
Speaker 3: and then when you go inside, the tree is in
Speaker 3: the middle. Or the other kind is there's a big
Speaker 3: log laying down and they lay logs across that and
Speaker 3: make like a you know, like an a frame.
Speaker 2: This one was free standing.
Speaker 3: Like the ones, they look like a Native American wiki
Speaker 3: up that kind of structure.
Speaker 2: So anyway, they the people I was with, were not
Speaker 2: They didn't believe in Bigfoot, and they thought it was
Speaker 2: kind of funny that I did. But anyway, so they
Speaker 2: I took pictures. They made fun of me, and then we.
Speaker 3: Started back and the storm got worse, and it was
Speaker 3: really We're on this road that was really a rural route,
Speaker 3: but it was paved, you know, asphalt. So we're coming
Speaker 3: down this road and we're in a huge blizzard and
Speaker 3: they and the darn We're in a pickup truck, which
Speaker 3: is rear wheel drive, and we were kind of sliding
Speaker 3: around and the driver was going, you know, pretty fast,
Speaker 3: and we're going through this blizzard and we just wanted
Speaker 3: to get out of that area because the storm was
Speaker 3: getting worse. The ice, the black ice on the road
Speaker 3: was getting almost non non navigable. So then I just
Speaker 3: happened to look to my left and they have saw
Speaker 3: grass there and the saw grass, and it's you know,
Speaker 3: it's blowing snow almost you know, vertically, and so I'm
Speaker 3: looking in the saw grass because that's just where the
Speaker 3: car was going around to turn.
Speaker 2: I could see the saw grass.
Speaker 3: In the saw grass, I could see what looked like
Speaker 3: except for its hair was long, and it looked like
Speaker 3: it was on like.
Speaker 2: Leaning on its let's see, it would be leaning on
Speaker 2: its left arm. Let me think, no, no, we're going
Speaker 2: we're going east.
Speaker 3: So it was leaning on its right arm, and it
Speaker 3: looked like it was holding like a like an infant
Speaker 3: in its left arm, looking over the sawgrass to see
Speaker 3: what was coming up the canyon. But we had already
Speaker 3: passed where she was looking. So it sounded like, I
Speaker 3: think from where there was, our car was like echoing backwards.
Speaker 3: So they looked where it sounded like it was coming from.
Speaker 3: But we were right alongside and I saw it briefly,
Speaker 3: and then as we kept going, I saw what looked
Speaker 3: like one standing up. Actually I wouldn't even say what
Speaker 3: looked like. I saw one standing up in the back,
Speaker 3: like just in the back, kind of looking between the
Speaker 3: tree line and the sawgrass.
Speaker 2: It's kind of blending into the trees a bit.
Speaker 3: But after I saw it, I just was kind of
Speaker 3: feeling like, Okay, I was trying to convince myself it
Speaker 3: was something else, but I can't think of what else
Speaker 3: it would be, you know, have a snout like a bear,
Speaker 3: and then you know, I go back to my reflection
Speaker 3: of Yosemite. It's like, Okay, did when people see a
Speaker 3: bear did they accident? Did they see a saucequatch and
Speaker 3: think it was a bear? Or did I see a
Speaker 3: bear think it was a saucequatch or you know that
Speaker 3: sort of thing. But this was a pretty clear view
Speaker 3: other than it was in a blizzard. But it was shoot, man,
Speaker 3: I never even thought about you know, distances or anything,
Speaker 3: but probably thirty yards not too far, like thirty yards
Speaker 3: where I saw this reclining one, And I think, what
Speaker 3: happened is it was down in the sawgrass and when
Speaker 3: it heard the car, it kind of just sat up
Speaker 3: onto its pivoting on its right arm. It just took
Speaker 3: a look to see what the noise was because there
Speaker 3: wasn't all there was no traffic on that on that road,
Speaker 3: not in that you know, it was like minus three
Speaker 3: and there's a blizzard.
Speaker 2: And anyway, so that was that.
Speaker 3: It took me a year on a horse and then
Speaker 3: I see one. You know, like they say they usually
Speaker 3: see him crossing the road, but you know that the
Speaker 3: one sighting that I saw that I was really pretty
Speaker 3: convinced of was that one. And you know, I, you know,
Speaker 3: spent all this money for horses and whatnot and just
Speaker 3: you know, possible clues. And then here I'm I see
Speaker 3: one by accident away from the fish Satchery. And then
Speaker 3: that was about that from Montana. And then I started
Speaker 3: riding the horse up more up in North Idaho near
Speaker 3: the Selkirk Range. Is that's supposed to be a hot spot.
Speaker 3: The BFRO has a couple of sightings there and no
Speaker 3: footprints nothing.
Speaker 2: I went in the snow, I went in the rain,
Speaker 2: I went in the summer.
Speaker 3: And I didn't see anything for the whole year, let's see.
Speaker 3: And then and then I had a possible And this
Speaker 3: was back in on the Clearwater River and I was
Speaker 3: I was sitting.
Speaker 2: We were sitting watching the river rafts, you know, the
Speaker 2: rafts that go over the rapids and whatnot. And we
Speaker 2: tried it. We went down the river raft and.
Speaker 3: Whatnot, and then we went up and was was we're
Speaker 3: watching them go by, and this is only a possibility.
Speaker 3: But I saw what looked like either someone in complete
Speaker 3: black snow pants, black jacket, you know, and black boots,
Speaker 3: black hair, you know, walking around like a nut, around
Speaker 3: in circles on an island in the river. But this
Speaker 3: was like a mile away, And so I looked through
Speaker 3: my camera and I zoomed in as far as I could,
Speaker 3: and it was so blurry I could not tell what
Speaker 3: it was. But if it was a person, they must
Speaker 3: have been really having some psychological problems, because they were
Speaker 3: they were just walking around like when you see a
Speaker 3: coyote in the zoo, and it's just pacing back and
Speaker 3: forth and pacing back and forth. So that was a
Speaker 3: possible one. And it's about all I can remember as far.
Speaker 1: As those ray That's some fascinating stuff. I'm gonna jump
Speaker 1: in for a little bit. Especially, I mean, not just
Speaker 1: that you saw one during that blizzard, but I mean,
Speaker 1: really you it sounds like you saw a family unit.
Speaker 1: I mean there's a female holding a baby, but also
Speaker 1: one standing to the side right.
Speaker 2: Right, like the nuclear family.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but this is I mean, I can't say that
Speaker 3: I was actively looking for sasquatch my whole life, because
Speaker 3: I wasn't. It just happened to be like everybody's normal
Speaker 3: pop culture. You see bigfoot in pop culture all the time,
Speaker 3: especially now, bumper stickers, TV shows, the Internet.
Speaker 2: Just tons of it.
Speaker 3: But at first it was kind of, you know, a
Speaker 3: little bit out there to think this stuff.
Speaker 2: But I'd say after.
Speaker 3: The Yosemite tracks, you know, I kind of looked around
Speaker 3: a little bit. But then, like I say, twelve years ago,
Speaker 3: when I moved to Montane to idem, I moved to
Speaker 3: Montana first, but then I had I had to get
Speaker 3: out of there for some reason anyway, So I got
Speaker 3: here in northern Idaho and it was just so the
Speaker 3: stuff was so obvious. I'm not saying there's a huge
Speaker 3: population or anything like that. It's just as I was
Speaker 3: in the wilderness, almost constantly kayaking, horseback riding, mountain biking, hiking,
Speaker 3: because I was retired at this point and hunting a lot,
Speaker 3: and everyone I met was pretty much in the hunting.
Speaker 2: So that was your, you know, your kind of your
Speaker 2: social thing.
Speaker 3: Either went, you know, coconey fishing, or you went hunting,
Speaker 3: and that's like, hey, you want to do something, it's
Speaker 3: usually hunting or cocaine fishing or kayaking. I went, you know,
Speaker 3: with the kayak especially, you can get into some real
Speaker 3: rural areas.
Speaker 2: But it's my opinion.
Speaker 3: That the Sasquatch I think there's probably, in my opinion,
Speaker 3: four sub types or four species that are are that
Speaker 3: we call bigfoot, and I think the one in the
Speaker 3: Northwest is the is the type one or the patty type,
Speaker 3: which is a big bulky ape looking on top, big
Speaker 3: burly human looking on the bottom type structure that's maybe
Speaker 3: a big grilla type. And then I think the type
Speaker 3: two is a bit smaller, maybe like like the skunk
Speaker 3: ape or chimpanzee type form. And I think that this
Speaker 3: isn't my idea, hear other people talk similarly, but I
Speaker 3: think that there's the type three, which is almost like
Speaker 3: a baboon type commonoid or just maybe a little bit
Speaker 3: more aggressive muzzle.
Speaker 2: And I think that's what you know people call dog
Speaker 2: man or what this whatnot wolf man, this kind of thing.
Speaker 3: I think it's the same type of thing, but I
Speaker 3: think it's it's must muzzle characteristic is a little more prominent.
Speaker 3: Where like the Type one, like Patty the Big Frip
Speaker 3: from the sixty seven Patterson Gimlin film, it's more real bust.
Speaker 3: It has a large sagittal crest, a big jaw, and
Speaker 3: no massive muscularity. And then the Type four is from
Speaker 3: what I was talking to a guy in Alaska and
Speaker 3: he said, they have one there that's like more like
Speaker 3: a caveman like some kind of like it's not like
Speaker 3: a Homo sapien or something, but maybe Neanderthal. I think
Speaker 3: they call it there.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I'm just going by what these people say, the researchers there,
Speaker 3: and I think I think in this area Montana all
Speaker 3: the way to the coast, and I think would be
Speaker 3: the Type one, like the big the big type. But
Speaker 3: the strange things what I think about it, you know,
Speaker 3: like Paul Freeman's video Kimlin's video both have similarities and
Speaker 3: you know, bulk and things like that. They both filmed it,
Speaker 3: they both have context with footprints and this sort of thing,
Speaker 3: And in any case, I think that.
Speaker 2: I kind of lost my train of thought. Sorry about that.
Speaker 2: I took three today.
Speaker 1: I got a question for you actually that might apply
Speaker 1: to that. Do you think these types ever could live
Speaker 1: together or they're pretty you know, pretty separate.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I do know that I think geography wise they might
Speaker 3: be separate because like the skunkate format form I have
Speaker 3: never heard out here. It's always the big robust and
Speaker 3: I haven't really heard too much about that type being
Speaker 3: down and in the swamps and whatnot. But it's almost
Speaker 3: like territorialism, like if a wolf. If a wolf pack
Speaker 3: comes into a new area, they immediately kill all other canines.
Speaker 3: They kill the dogs, they kill the coyotes, they kill
Speaker 3: the foxes, they kill the other wolves. It's a gray wolf,
Speaker 3: they'll kill the timber wolf, and they pretty much take
Speaker 3: over the territory and they want to eliminate all competition,
Speaker 3: and so it you know, there may be that scenario.
Speaker 3: But by this but if that was true, then well
Speaker 3: I don't know, maybe they do, but they would probably
Speaker 3: want to kill off the humans too. You know, if
Speaker 3: they're trying to if they want to be the prominent
Speaker 3: primate apex predator primate, they'd probably kill humans too. But
Speaker 3: I'm not saying they don't. It's just the Yeah, So
Speaker 3: it was a it's going to make a point on that,
Speaker 3: but I took.
Speaker 2: Out three trees today.
Speaker 1: There's a random, really random question going to throw out
Speaker 1: just because you've mentioned Montana stuff a lot in your background.
Speaker 1: Did any of the things that you experienced in Montana?
Speaker 1: Have you ever been near There's a place in Montana
Speaker 1: that was discovered called the Sage Wall. Have you ever got.
Speaker 2: I know about the Sage Wall? Right? Have you been there?
Speaker 2: My son's my son's been there. I haven't been there.
Speaker 3: My son lives just in a cabin right outside of
Speaker 3: Callous Bell And yeah, he knows all about the Sage Wall,
Speaker 3: and he's showing me photographs of it. And it's pretty
Speaker 3: intriguing because it's not it's not like a massive geog
Speaker 3: you know, monolith where you look at it and then
Speaker 3: like on the other side that you know it's it's
Speaker 3: a it's a flat or dirt. I mean, there's nothing
Speaker 3: on the other side.
Speaker 2: It's a wall, and it.
Speaker 3: Looks to me similar to the structures that like in
Speaker 3: South America and stuff where the stone cutting is so
Speaker 3: advanced that it almost looks like it's you know, it's
Speaker 3: melted together.
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: Like, there's some spots where it looks, oh, that looks natural,
Speaker 3: but that's where it's eroding. That's where it's starting to
Speaker 3: come apart. But he says, he told me that he
Speaker 3: thought that Delter sounds or sonic imagery shows that thirty
Speaker 3: feet deep, So that would mean even though how massive
Speaker 3: they are, there are another thirty feet below ground, which
Speaker 3: is which is pretty mind boggling.
Speaker 1: That kind of thing is because just bonkers. It's I mean,
Speaker 1: it's one of those things where it is fascinating to me,
Speaker 1: but it's like I can't let myself get too into
Speaker 1: it or I will lose my main focus, which is
Speaker 1: big Yeah right now what I mean like, yeah, this
Speaker 1: is what this is. Like, my focus is getting the
Speaker 1: word out. But that wall is fascinating and maybe they're
Speaker 1: If they could be connected, that would be great. I mean,
Speaker 1: then the two two could work together.
Speaker 3: But you know, well, you know there's always that the stories,
Speaker 3: the oral history of a lot of the Native American
Speaker 3: groups saying they used to trade with and you know,
Speaker 3: it was more they had more of a symbiotic relationship
Speaker 3: with the two species. I mean, it looks like to me,
Speaker 3: like through DNA studies that they have identical DNA or
Speaker 3: at least so close that it can't be discerned, because
Speaker 3: like in the Olympic project, they found I would imagine
Speaker 3: urine in that nest.
Speaker 2: And they tested and it was human.
Speaker 3: And then a lot of times you'll hear about hair
Speaker 3: samples that come back and oh it's human. Well is
Speaker 3: it human or do they just have really close DNA
Speaker 3: that's non discernible.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's that's really interesting. I don't remember hearing about that.
Speaker 1: That is I'm going to have to go back and
Speaker 1: look through all that stuff again. That's really that's what.
Speaker 3: I've got some some hair, some hair samples, and I'm
Speaker 3: you know, people ask me, well, why didn't.
Speaker 2: You get something DNA checked?
Speaker 3: And I don't have the kind of money to do
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff, you know, I mean I don't.
Speaker 3: I'm just you know, a person like everyone else with
Speaker 3: a hobby, right right, But I have found hair that
Speaker 3: looks pretty intriguing. And I put it under the microscope,
Speaker 3: and the theoretical perspective is this, okay, if you if you,
Speaker 3: if you line it up with human hair, human hair,
Speaker 3: all of us get a haircut eventually, and those who don't,
Speaker 3: you know, they got really long hair and they have
Speaker 3: split ends and this kind of stuff. But the Sasquatch
Speaker 3: hair has never been cut. So that's one thing, and
Speaker 3: that's not you know, conclusive. The other thing is it's
Speaker 3: never been dyed or washed. So our hair has small
Speaker 3: particles residual chemicals from onehing, from chlorinated water, from hair dye.
Speaker 3: You know, for the people who dye their hair or
Speaker 3: bleach their hair. There's there's a chemical that's usually in
Speaker 3: human hair. The other thing is the medulla or the
Speaker 3: core that holds the protein in the in the hair,
Speaker 3: which is where the DNA is. It's completely absent in
Speaker 3: the Bigfoot hair. And in Jeff Meldrum's book see it's Legends.
Speaker 2: Meet Science from the movie.
Speaker 3: Sasquatch Sasquatch Legends Meet Science, and then he came out
Speaker 3: with a book afterwards and he documents in there that
Speaker 3: there's no medula and you know or you know, the
Speaker 3: center DNA core protein core of the hair. They just
Speaker 3: don't have it.
Speaker 2: And you know that's why they're their hair I guess
Speaker 2: is so you know, light and fluffy. And then when Paul.
Speaker 3: Freeman sent in some hair samples to get analysis analysized
Speaker 3: in them, I believe.
Speaker 2: It was in the.
Speaker 3: Sixties or seventies anyway, he sent them in for analysis,
Speaker 3: and the analysis lady said, you know, this is strange,
Speaker 3: but it looks like the medula is either crushed out
Speaker 3: or bleached out or there's no modula in this hair.
Speaker 2: So there's characteristics.
Speaker 3: And I think there's some others, but those characteristics are
Speaker 3: and it's not for its hair, but the hair it's
Speaker 3: though similar to.
Speaker 2: Humans under a microscope, it's not like human hair.
Speaker 1: It is really fascinating when you look into it and
Speaker 1: you read doctor Meldrum's book, and no, it's a thing
Speaker 1: that does come up on this show every once in
Speaker 1: a while. But you know, Ray, I would love if
Speaker 1: you could spend a little bit of time kind of
Speaker 1: talking about how Bigfoot Quest magazine came about and why
Speaker 1: you came out with that publication. I think it's important.
Speaker 1: We've talked about that for a bit.
Speaker 3: Okay, we'll say it was during the COVID lockdown as
Speaker 3: far as I can remember, and so I was looking
Speaker 3: for like an outlet to keep my mind getting I
Speaker 3: was doing some I was actually carving sasquatches in the garage,
Speaker 3: and I had all these you know, other hobbies and
Speaker 3: stuff like that, and watching started watching reruns of Finding Bigfoot,
Speaker 3: like hundreds of them, you know, like all of them.
Speaker 3: I was like binging on it them and Monster Quest
Speaker 3: and you know, things like that. And when I was
Speaker 3: in college, I did a newsletter kind of like a
Speaker 3: magazine newsletter journal for the people that studied the lithic
Speaker 3: technology or flint napping or stone tool studies, the replication
Speaker 3: of stone tools, and people do it at rock shows
Speaker 3: now and things like that, and they use lapidary equipment
Speaker 3: and make these beautiful pieces, which are great. But it
Speaker 3: grew that art form, which is really common now, grew
Speaker 3: out of this replicative systems analysis of in archaeology, and
Speaker 3: some people got quite famous, and their replications were used
Speaker 3: to bolster academic research projects. When they were studying, say,
Speaker 3: project all Points. They'd find a certain type of project
Speaker 3: all Point made out of flint and an archaeological site,
Speaker 3: so they would study the form of the project doll points,
Speaker 3: and they changed over time, so they had what they
Speaker 3: called typology. So typology was if it has the project
Speaker 3: all points two inches long and it has side notches
Speaker 3: in it to attach to an arrow, and before that
Speaker 3: it had a flute up the center and it was
Speaker 3: three inches long, and that was from Clovis people, and
Speaker 3: that was minod on spear and thrown from a spear
Speaker 3: thrower and things like that. So they had what they
Speaker 3: called typology, and then they had a structural and then structuralism,
Speaker 3: which is how they were made and what they were
Speaker 3: made out of, and then functionalism like okay, how were
Speaker 3: they used?
Speaker 2: Was it a knife? Was it a project all point?
Speaker 3: Was it a bone? I? Was it a stone drill?
Speaker 3: Stuff like that. Well, to bolster their studies, they wanted
Speaker 3: to add how it was made. So they would employ
Speaker 3: a flint napper or lithic technologist or lithic specialist and
Speaker 3: they would say, okay, let's let's try to reverse engineer
Speaker 3: this stone tool to find out how it was made,
Speaker 3: and that would of course bolster their their published published work.
Speaker 3: So anyway, so I got into that realm, and then
Speaker 3: so I decided to start to actually re re rebirth
Speaker 3: an old journal called Flint Nappers Exchange that it went
Speaker 3: out of business. So in college I started this flint
Speaker 3: Napping Digest, and it was just for people in the
Speaker 3: community that we're doing these research projects replicating stone, replicating
Speaker 3: mining the flint, replicating heat trating or thermally altering the flint.
Speaker 3: When it's like ceramic, you know, if you cook it,
Speaker 3: it gets a little bit shinier and a little bit
Speaker 3: easier to work, and a little bit sharper edges. So anyway,
Speaker 3: so I started this this publication and it was it was,
Speaker 3: you know, prove to rudimentary. At the time, we didn't
Speaker 3: have computers or anything like that. So anyway, I did
Speaker 3: that for a couple of years, and so during COVID,
Speaker 3: I thought, you know, I'm going to start doing that again. Well,
Speaker 3: what I've soon found out is no one cared about
Speaker 3: that anymore because it wasn't it wasn't a replicative science anymore.
Speaker 3: It was a it was a lapidary art and people
Speaker 3: were making these beautiful, perfectly patterned flake knives out of
Speaker 3: flint and jasper and agate and things like that and
Speaker 3: selling them for art. So no really cared about the
Speaker 3: archaeological experimental aspect of it.
Speaker 2: So that is okay that I'm not going to be
Speaker 2: able to do that publication.
Speaker 3: So I made them, and I think I sold one
Speaker 3: and it was, you know, it was pretty you know,
Speaker 3: it was good quality.
Speaker 2: Now because I had computers and Amazon and everything.
Speaker 3: I sold one, so that wasn't going to work. So
Speaker 3: I sort of gave up on that. And then after
Speaker 3: watching these you know, the big Foot shows and stuff,
Speaker 3: I said, I'm thinking, well, I wonder if anyone would
Speaker 3: be interested in that. And I think that was two
Speaker 3: thousand or twenty two whenever that stuff was going on,
Speaker 3: I remember. But anyway, so I made one just based
Speaker 3: on my experiences up to that point. And I hadn't
Speaker 3: you know, I hadn't done the Montana stuff. I hadn't
Speaker 3: you know, done that sort of thing yet. So I
Speaker 3: had all this stuff like Yosemite and you know, a
Speaker 3: couple other you know, some of the footprints I found.
Speaker 3: I started talking about the structures and the and that
Speaker 3: sort of thing, and some of the theories about what
Speaker 3: the species might be. And so I put one out
Speaker 3: and it was it was pretty pretty basic and stuff.
Speaker 2: Like that, but you know, it's on Amazon.
Speaker 3: So it had been nice cover and everything, and then
Speaker 3: I met a guy online, Steve Baxter from England, who's
Speaker 3: who's thought, hey, this is great, but it's kind of
Speaker 3: it needs some work, you know, like editorial work. So
Speaker 3: he was kind enough to rewrite the whole thing, and
Speaker 3: he's he was an artist.
Speaker 2: I still is. So he made the cover and then we,
Speaker 2: you know, we put it out.
Speaker 3: Again and it did really pretty well, so not long,
Speaker 3: i'd say, maybe a month or two later, we thought, hey,
Speaker 3: you know, let's do another one.
Speaker 2: So we thought we'd make a theme, like a theme
Speaker 2: to it.
Speaker 3: So the theme for the second one was to be
Speaker 3: the Patterson Gimlin site Bluff Creek. So I contacted Daniel Perez,
Speaker 3: who's an expert on the subject. Let's see, Oh, I
Speaker 3: can't remember who else. But what I did is I
Speaker 3: went down the line.
Speaker 2: I tried.
Speaker 3: I contacted doctor Meldrum, but he didn't know me or
Speaker 3: anything at the time, so he declined.
Speaker 2: But I got quite a few people that were fairly experts.
Speaker 2: I can't seem to find it right now, Oh here
Speaker 2: it is.
Speaker 3: So then Stephen Strufford, who owned Bigfoot books there in
Speaker 3: Willow Creek and he'd been on. He was in the
Speaker 3: movie Bluff Creek, the horror film, which is like lost
Speaker 3: footage type film like Blair Witch. And then so he
Speaker 3: wrote got a nice article from him, Alexander Pettakoff, who
Speaker 3: does a monster what.
Speaker 2: Is that show? He puts out, Well, he does a
Speaker 2: lot of film, Yeah.
Speaker 1: For small town monsters.
Speaker 3: Yeah, small town monsters, right, And he wrote a really
Speaker 3: nice article about his experience in Bluff Creek when he
Speaker 3: was making his episode on that all the experiences they have.
Speaker 2: And I think he was with I'm not sure, but
Speaker 2: I think he was.
Speaker 3: With Carrick Carrick, Saint Laurent and Jamie Wayne, I think,
Speaker 3: but anyway, and then another lady, Megan Renee Lynn, she
Speaker 3: was I think she lived in the area Native American.
Speaker 3: And then Steve Baxter wrote an article and he was
Speaker 3: the British guy, like I said, he's a cryptozoologist.
Speaker 2: He's a really smart guy.
Speaker 3: And he was the one who helped me, like I said,
Speaker 3: get the thing going. And then of course Daniel Perez
Speaker 3: who does Bigfoot Times.
Speaker 2: And Daniel's been in on the you know, with.
Speaker 3: The Bluff Creek project, and he was, you know, they're
Speaker 3: looking for those film site before it was found, and
Speaker 3: he was friends with Peter Burn and.
Speaker 2: You know all the original guys.
Speaker 3: He knew Paul Freeman, he knew well, you know John Green,
Speaker 3: you know all those guys, and so anyway, so it
Speaker 3: was really neat that he wrote an article all about
Speaker 3: the different cameras and the lenses used and the experimental
Speaker 3: procedures they used to determine the size and distance of
Speaker 3: the subject, which is you know, Patty the Bigfoot. So
Speaker 3: and anyway, that was when that came out. I think
Speaker 3: it was I can't remember it was twenty twenty or
Speaker 3: two twenty two, but anyway, my brain is degregating.
Speaker 2: Twenty twenty two.
Speaker 3: So and then after that, I think I did one
Speaker 3: more and then I gave up. And so Steve Baxter
Speaker 3: took over the magazine for two issues winter of twenty
Speaker 3: three and then fall of two twenty two. That he
Speaker 3: did those ones, and I just I wrote an article
Speaker 3: for each one. But he was able to get Nate
Speaker 3: Rudd and Ken Gerard and Russell Eastbrooks who just you know,
Speaker 3: came out with the book Sasquatch with historical observations in that.
Speaker 3: And then so anyway, his came out really professional, and
Speaker 3: you know, I just I was getting I didn't like
Speaker 3: the trolls and things that were, you know, getting on
Speaker 3: the Amazon and giving it really bad reviews and you
Speaker 3: could tell they didn't even read it because it would
Speaker 3: be the same old thing, the same old thing. I said,
Speaker 3: Wait a minute, nothing is the same. You know, nothing
Speaker 3: we're doing has anything to do with what came before.
Speaker 3: No one was talking about stone tools or that I
Speaker 3: know of anyway, and the hunting techniques, you know, and
Speaker 3: that sort of thing. And I don't think anyone was
Speaker 3: contacting all the experts on Bluff Creek and then lining
Speaker 3: them up, you know, for one good publication. And that
Speaker 3: was like, you know, that's it's really hard when you
Speaker 3: get other people involved because you're you know, you're waiting
Speaker 3: for one more guy and they decide not to do it,
Speaker 3: and then you know, someone else wonders why they didn't
Speaker 3: get to do it and things like that. But anyway,
Speaker 3: after the two issues came out in England, Amazon shut
Speaker 3: them down. They shut Steve Baxter down, and I'm not
Speaker 3: sure if they thought he was pledgiarizing me even though
Speaker 3: I gave you know, full permission, you know, and I
Speaker 3: even write articles in it. But anyway, so I just thought, oh,
Speaker 3: that'd be a shame to let that go. So I
Speaker 3: started it again, but I changed the name to Bigfoot
Speaker 3: Mystery Magazine, and I put more like encounter stories and
Speaker 3: stuff like that, and it just wasn't fun for me
Speaker 3: to just, you know, regurgitate people's big Foot stories. So
Speaker 3: I started doing Bigfoot Magazine again, and I started doing
Speaker 3: like what I like to do as the research part,
Speaker 3: and then publish what what what my perceptions are of
Speaker 3: what I found and what other people find. And then
Speaker 3: then I met I wanted to go to the Emerald
Speaker 3: Triangle after the Bigfoot does the Hulu Sasquatch program. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I got really inspired, so I started trying to get
Speaker 3: information down there. So what I did is I had
Speaker 3: someone I was talking to that looked was unassuming aging lady,
Speaker 3: well not unassuming. She was attractive and stuff, but you
Speaker 3: wouldn't think she was like a Bigfoot researcher. So I
Speaker 3: was in martial arts for a long time, so I
Speaker 3: had a friend of mine that was still into the
Speaker 3: martial arts competitively. So I talked to him and he says, yeah,
Speaker 3: my daughter's into Bigfoot and she'll do this.
Speaker 2: So she went and got.
Speaker 3: A job with a grower down in the Emerald Triangle.
Speaker 3: Started trying to get information that was really interesting. And
Speaker 3: I talked to a couple of growers. You know, now
Speaker 3: they use high hy drop hydro hydro and it's all indoors.
Speaker 3: But before that and then certain people that were homegrown,
Speaker 3: you know, you're doing outside. Still we're having the same
Speaker 3: issue where the sasquatch should come in and eat the buds.
Speaker 2: Off the buds.
Speaker 3: So yeah, so I said, I contacted this one guy
Speaker 3: I knew, and he was a younger guy than me,
Speaker 3: but I knew his dad type of thing. And he said, Oh,
Speaker 3: my son's a pruner, you know, he goes in and
Speaker 3: prunes the plants seasonally. So I asked him, I says,
Speaker 3: what what's the deal with the sasquatch? Like on Sauce
Speaker 3: Hulu sasquatch and goes, oh, yeah, man, those things come
Speaker 3: in and eat all the buds, you know, eat your profits,
Speaker 3: you know, and would put up electric fences and they'd
Speaker 3: bust them down and they'd throw rocks at us, and
Speaker 3: you know, we'd we'd make noise and we'd put you know,
Speaker 3: ropes with cans on them, we could hear them. And
Speaker 3: I said, well, what do you think that they that
Speaker 3: they tore these guys apart? And he says, he says,
Speaker 3: you know it's possible because you know if they when
Speaker 3: they get high, they have the what they call receptors.
Speaker 3: And what these receptors are is there in the human
Speaker 3: brain there's a receptor that is uh sensitive. Well, so
Speaker 3: it was my theory was that sasquatch also has these receptors,
Speaker 3: but instead of make them nuts and so so I
Speaker 3: called Meldrum and I say, I think I called him.
Speaker 3: I probably text him because I don't think he answers
Speaker 3: the phone and I call him, but because we have
Speaker 3: this issue where I think that they use stone tools,
Speaker 3: and he says, they don't have a posable thumb, so
Speaker 3: how would they how would they how would that functionally
Speaker 3: be possible?
Speaker 2: You know, they have an anectonym of the disadvantage without
Speaker 2: the opposable thumb. But in any case, so it's the
Speaker 2: funniest thing.
Speaker 3: He writes me, back, I gave this whole theory about
Speaker 3: the receptors and stuff in these plants and why these
Speaker 3: sasquatch are getting violent. And he writes back, what have
Speaker 3: you been smoking. That was about the funniest response I
Speaker 3: ever heard, especially from like the science guy. You know,
Speaker 3: he's like the quintessential professor. You know, what have you
Speaker 3: been smoking? So I kind of backed top of that
Speaker 3: theoretical perspective. But and I haven't been to the area since,
Speaker 3: but you know, I think that you know, there's the
Speaker 3: thing about that movie was that documentary is the guy's
Speaker 3: name that was the drug lord guy down.
Speaker 2: There was Sasquatch or Bigfoot, I think Sasquatch.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So when the guy says Sasquatch just ripped up
Speaker 3: these guys, you know, dismembered them. Was he talking about
Speaker 3: the drug layer drug lord with a nickname Sasquatch, right?
Speaker 3: Or were they talking about a real Sasquatch. And that's
Speaker 3: where the mystery is.
Speaker 2: But even at the even at the end, even now,
Speaker 2: no one really knows which one it was.
Speaker 3: But in the area, you know, from what I understand
Speaker 3: from the people that I that I talked to, I
Speaker 3: talked to one guy down there too. This was in
Speaker 3: Willow Creek, which is in the Emerald Triangle. I was
Speaker 3: I was looking at one of the one of the
Speaker 3: carvings there, one of the it looks like a chainsaw carving,
Speaker 3: and it's called Ohman, it's in the center of Willow Creek,
Speaker 3: which is, you know, Bigfoot Capital of the World, such
Speaker 3: a thing.
Speaker 2: Everything's sort of Bigfoot.
Speaker 3: They had when I was there, they had what they
Speaker 3: call Bigfoot Burger, which is a burger place that served
Speaker 3: big foot shaped of shape of a foot burgers.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: So I'm standing near Oma which is this in the
Speaker 3: center center of town, and I remember the nice name,
Speaker 3: Oh McLaren. Jim McLaren was one of the Bigfoot guys
Speaker 3: that was with missing John Green and whatnot back then,
Speaker 3: and he was a student there at Humboldt State and
Speaker 3: he carved the Omah the same at the same time
Speaker 3: Patterson and Gimblin had their encounter. So that was sixty
Speaker 3: seven October. Any case, I'm standing next to McLaren's Omah
Speaker 3: statue and there was I guess people waiting for a bus.
Speaker 3: I'm thinking, I can't remember, it was so long ago,
Speaker 3: but there was a guy that was a lumberjack was
Speaker 3: one of the ones standing there, and I was looking
Speaker 3: at the Omah and I was laughing. And this is
Speaker 3: before you know, I this was way before the magazine
Speaker 3: and my in depth type studies. But I was laughing
Speaker 3: at this thing, and I says, you give me a
Speaker 3: dirty look. And I says, what what's wrong?
Speaker 2: Do you believe in Bigfoot? And he got mad.
Speaker 3: He says many I've heard him talk. He says, I've
Speaker 3: heard him talk. And he says, you know when you're
Speaker 3: when you're way back in there taking trees, they do
Speaker 3: they do come out and investigate.
Speaker 2: Like Jerry Crew.
Speaker 3: You know that they were making a road in that area,
Speaker 3: you know, by laws camp, and then you know he
Speaker 3: found the footprints in the morning, which is why they
Speaker 3: named it bigfoot. Right, went to the Humboldt Times, and
Speaker 3: Jerry Crew was I'm pretty sure the one who named
Speaker 3: them bigfoot. As I've talked to Carl Crewe, his his nephew,
Speaker 3: I guess they were his great nephew. And he says, yeah,
Speaker 3: he was the first one to call it bigfoot, and
Speaker 3: then the Humboldt Times published it and the rest of
Speaker 3: his history. But yeah, he said he heard them talk.
Speaker 3: And this guy was I mean not only serious, but
Speaker 3: you know angry that like you know, you know, you
Speaker 3: don't come to someone's town and mock their beliefs.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: But anyway, you know, I wasn't really thought it was funny.
Speaker 3: It was just like we were joking around with statue,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: Right right.
Speaker 3: And the Native Americans the era in the area have
Speaker 3: real deep oral history on Omah, even to the extent
Speaker 3: of describing it using tools. One description I have is
Speaker 3: what they'd take a soap root, which is kind of
Speaker 3: a tall grass and it has like an onion at
Speaker 3: the bottom or a tuber, and they would take, according
Speaker 3: to oral history, they would take this soap root and
Speaker 3: squish it up into SuDS because it squishes up, it
Speaker 3: makes like soap SuDS, and they'd put it in the
Speaker 3: creeks and it would clog up the fish's gills and
Speaker 3: they would just float up and.
Speaker 2: The sausquatch would pick them up off the top and
Speaker 2: eat them, which is interesting.
Speaker 3: And then they also said that they would they would
Speaker 3: make throw rocks, and they would.
Speaker 2: You know, just like you know the stories here now.
Speaker 3: And then the part of the oral history is that
Speaker 3: the oh my, actually, if you see the horror.
Speaker 2: Film about Sasquatch, I can't remember what it's called. Shoot.
Speaker 3: No, there's one that actually the sasquatch wear masks and
Speaker 3: shoot arrows and whatnot. I can't remember what it's called,
Speaker 3: but anyway, there is movie that has Omah in it
Speaker 3: and he is follows the Native American oral tradition of
Speaker 3: you know, covering his face with the mask, shooting arrows
Speaker 3: and stuff like that, and that they actually said that
Speaker 3: in the oral tradition that had used poison arrows with
Speaker 3: poison arrow heads. And if you look in that area
Speaker 3: I think it was, Yeah, it would be just inland
Speaker 3: from that area and a bit to the north. I
Speaker 3: worked on the Piute reservation there as a seasonal archeologist
Speaker 3: once and I met a guy who had actually one
Speaker 3: of the main medicine man. Guy had He told me
Speaker 3: some Sasquatch legends and one of them was that they
Speaker 3: would use the same as the Oma back in Willow Creek.
Speaker 3: The Oma in their tradition also used tools and whatnot,
Speaker 3: and they used a red obsidian, and red obsidian, according
Speaker 3: to their oral tradition, was ritually poison, like a ritualistic
Speaker 3: poison like if you shot someone, if you had obsidian
Speaker 3: and you laid.
Speaker 2: It out the rock, the raw rock.
Speaker 3: They would have different meanings for different ones, like if
Speaker 3: you had a real fancy rainbow s luminescence about it
Speaker 3: that you know, you use that for trade, you know,
Speaker 3: and that makes perfectly common sense. And then if you
Speaker 3: had black obsidi and us, you'd use that for hunting,
Speaker 3: say deer, you would make a projectile point. If it
Speaker 3: was gray, it's got a little bit of texture and
Speaker 3: it's a little tougher, So use that for spear point,
Speaker 3: a knife, or a thrusting object, or even an axe head.
Speaker 3: And then if you have red that's ritually poisoning, and
Speaker 3: use it on your enemies to kill them.
Speaker 2: So I thought that was interesting that the oral history
Speaker 2: about the sauce the ome, which is you know, the
Speaker 2: Sasquatch there would have the same oral history, uh like
Speaker 2: almost you know, similar to the Paiutes hunting, hunting medicine.
Speaker 1: But that's so fascinating stuff. So the oral tradition you
Speaker 1: were saying over by Willow Creek was that from the
Speaker 1: Hoopa tribe.
Speaker 3: Done Hoopa would be ohmah, yeah, okay cool. That would
Speaker 3: be the Oraville Reservation, I think it is. And something
Speaker 3: interesting about that reservation on Oroville is when I was
Speaker 3: in college, I was studying this one guy, the Native
Speaker 3: Americans there have what they call the white deer dance,
Speaker 3: and they would dance, you know, like around you know,
Speaker 3: the fire whatever, like this kind of stuff in their
Speaker 3: native regalia. And they would have albino deer skins because
Speaker 3: they had big medicine, you know, it's and then it
Speaker 3: would put the albino deer head on their head like
Speaker 3: a hat, and then and the skin would be like
Speaker 3: a cape. And then they would have a headband that
Speaker 3: had like bear teeth but they were facing up, and
Speaker 3: they would dance with a staff that had a deer
Speaker 3: skin on it also, you know, the albino deer skin.
Speaker 3: And then they would have these giant obsidian blades. And
Speaker 3: by blades, I don't mean like you know, a detached
Speaker 3: sharp rock that's large it is considered a blade in archaeology.
Speaker 3: But they were flaked on both sides, like an arrowhead
Speaker 3: with a nice flaking on both sides, or an obsidian
Speaker 3: knife or anything. But these things were like thirty forty
Speaker 3: inches long, a foot in width and the thickness of
Speaker 3: about three inches in the center. So these are massive,
Speaker 3: you know, you're talking about fifty sixty pounds, and they're beautiful.
Speaker 3: They look like a surfboard. But you know obsidian or
Speaker 3: volcanic glass, so it's like a gemstone. It's like a
Speaker 3: semi precious gem, and it's the size of a boogie
Speaker 3: board and or a large skateboard. And they're dancing with
Speaker 3: these things and they have a thong around their arm
Speaker 3: and then around the blade. Well, the guy who was
Speaker 3: flint napping those for the Iraq, Karok, and the Hoopah,
Speaker 3: all three of those in that area, he himself was
Speaker 3: a Karok Native American. His name was ted Orcut and
Speaker 3: his can't remember his Indian name was Mitso Pisa fish
Speaker 3: or something like that, which means upriver boy because he
Speaker 3: lived up on the river. So anyway, I was researching
Speaker 3: his techniques to make these giant blades, and I found
Speaker 3: it where a ethnologist or an anthropologists had been interviewing
Speaker 3: him and some of his family members because he learned
Speaker 3: to trade from his uncle, who was also a Karok.
Speaker 3: So anyway, so I'm reading this thing, and right during
Speaker 3: the interview, so all the Karaoks stopped the interview break up,
Speaker 3: and the uncle had seen a sasquad running across this hill.
Speaker 2: And you know this is like in the nineteenth oh wow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's in this and it's in this microfish.
Speaker 3: You know, because this is this is really obscure literature.
Speaker 2: You have to really dig to get this stuff.
Speaker 3: As you can imagine, it's not like mainstream pop culture stuff.
Speaker 3: So even when I'm trying to find out about some
Speaker 3: rare technology from the past, and this is all our past,
Speaker 3: no matter who you are, at some point your ancestors
Speaker 3: were making stone flint tools. I mean even even you know,
Speaker 3: in the Revolutionary War, these flint lock rifles, someone had
Speaker 3: to chip those flint flints to put in those rifles
Speaker 3: to set off the spark. So flint mining and flint
Speaker 3: working had never it's never been a lost art. Like
Speaker 3: some people say, oh, that's a lost art. No, it
Speaker 3: really never was. But anyway, so I thought that was
Speaker 3: so bizarre because that was when when I was doing
Speaker 3: that research. I it was like, you know, you know,
Speaker 3: a long time ago before I was really heavy into
Speaker 3: the Bigfoot research. So I just like, God, that's kind
Speaker 3: of strange, that's kind of random, you know, Like what
Speaker 3: they stopped the interview with this guy who came all
Speaker 3: the way from these universities. Hey, someone saw a sasquatch,
Speaker 3: And it was like a big deal. But it wasn't
Speaker 3: like you know or shadow like, oh, we don't believe
Speaker 3: in them. It's like it's a rare sight, like when
Speaker 3: you see an albino moose. Hey, soone so saw on
Speaker 3: albino moose. That's a big deal.
Speaker 2: It was that sort of you know, interaction, social interaction.
Speaker 2: So I thought that was kind of interesting.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Do you have a copy of that or
Speaker 1: is that just something you were just reading and research?
Speaker 2: Actually I might have it.
Speaker 3: I I actually wrote a book about that's a piece
Speaker 3: of bitch.
Speaker 2: See if I got it here. I don't have it,
Speaker 2: but I can. I can get you a copy of
Speaker 2: the book or send you the link.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be cool.
Speaker 2: Uh, it's let's call it.
Speaker 3: I think it's I think it's called Upriver Boy the book.
Speaker 1: Okay, I don't have it, right, cool.
Speaker 3: I just I just have my sasquatchuff. But yeah, and
Speaker 3: it's it was it's a strong thing. But one of
Speaker 3: the guy, one of the guys I was doing the
Speaker 3: research work with, we were going to publish a peer
Speaker 3: reviewed academic journal. But as far as where it goes
Speaker 3: to patience and attention to detail and things like that,
Speaker 3: in academia never my strong point.
Speaker 2: It's like, let's get it done. Let's get it done.
Speaker 3: But I was working with some other people, like some
Speaker 3: of the universities on that, on that research, and you know,
Speaker 3: we found out where ted Orcutt or Mesipieza Fitch. We
Speaker 3: we found out where he lived. You can find Theodore
Speaker 3: or cut and graves dot com. You can see his
Speaker 3: graves down with all these spear points carved into it,
Speaker 3: which is interesting.
Speaker 2: He's in the graveyard there and in that area in
Speaker 2: or Cut I guess. So anyway, it's all verifile. Well,
Speaker 2: I mean, the guy's bones are there, his gravestones there.
Speaker 2: I'd like to find out where he was.
Speaker 3: Making these things because the remnants, the you know, the
Speaker 3: the waist flakes that were detached from these giant blades
Speaker 3: are going to still be there, so you could use
Speaker 3: those to kind of rebuild what.
Speaker 2: He was doing.
Speaker 3: And I one of the guys that was on the
Speaker 3: research project said he was probably using Usually when you
Speaker 3: make these things, you're using like an deer antler or
Speaker 3: a moose antler to percussion and knock flakes off, and
Speaker 3: then you the finer work he used, you.
Speaker 2: Press it off like they call it the pressure method
Speaker 2: with a deer tiet. But this guy was.
Speaker 3: Using actually kind of innovative and he was using a
Speaker 3: mallet instead of like just the antler stuff. He was
Speaker 3: using a mallet he had made and then almost like
Speaker 3: a hammer and a chisel, but it was a mallet,
Speaker 3: and you know, I don't know what you would call
Speaker 3: a chisel made out of a horn. But anyway, the
Speaker 3: interesting part was that in that research, sasquatch was in there.
Speaker 1: So that's such a cool thing when you have multiple
Speaker 1: interests intersect like that unexpectedly. But Ray, it has been
Speaker 1: a pleasure having you on the show, and a lot
Speaker 1: of things we've never talked about before. What's the best
Speaker 1: way for people to pick up copies of that magazine
Speaker 1: if they would be looking for it?
Speaker 3: Well, let's see what you do is you just go
Speaker 3: on Amazon Books and just type in Bigfoot Quest magazine.
Speaker 2: Tons of them well popped up. And the one I.
Speaker 3: Would recommend, of course, the one I always finish is
Speaker 3: always my favorite. But I just did one on Mount
Speaker 3: Saint Helens, and of course not Saint Helens is in
Speaker 3: the same county as the Scuukam cast as Ape Canyon.
Speaker 2: You know the Ape Canyon.
Speaker 3: Attack where you know they sasquatches attacked the cabin and
Speaker 3: there was actually and shot and went off a cliff
Speaker 3: and that I think it was Fred Beck, I think
Speaker 3: it was.
Speaker 2: And anyway, so that was in that area.
Speaker 3: And then Monster Quest when they came out with their
Speaker 3: classic thing that there was a group of women looking
Speaker 3: for saucequatch. There there's so much history in that in
Speaker 3: the Mount Saint Helen's and then there's the course there's
Speaker 3: the theories that you know, the National Guard came in
Speaker 3: after the eruption of Mount Saint Helen and they were
Speaker 3: they found injured sacequatch and things like that that that
Speaker 3: story shoot, there's there's so many saucequatch related things about
Speaker 3: Mount Saint Helen and anyway in that county that is
Speaker 3: in I can't recall the name, but if you look
Speaker 3: on even b f R or any of the other
Speaker 3: selection sites.
Speaker 2: They're still encounters today in that area. So that's my
Speaker 2: favorite ones.
Speaker 3: If you look up you know, Bigfoot Quest magazines, Mount
Speaker 3: Saint Helen and then if you have to put ray
Speaker 3: Harwid and then all come up and I don't make
Speaker 3: any profit on them for the most part, unless it's
Speaker 3: on kindle ate, I get.
Speaker 2: Like thirty cents.
Speaker 3: But the paperback one's my favorite format, and they're more
Speaker 3: like readers digest because they're like thick and they're six
Speaker 3: by nine. But the thing about it is is it's
Speaker 3: only three dollars and eighty seven cents, and that's what
Speaker 3: they charge to make it. So I just wanted to
Speaker 3: be affordable so people can get the information. And then
Speaker 3: I do another one called Journal of Sasquatch Archaeology. And
Speaker 3: if you're interested, like in the artifactual part, like the
Speaker 3: foot cast, the hand casts, the butt patent casts, that
Speaker 3: sort of thing, I sort of those are kind of
Speaker 3: more condensed into that realm. And then there's you know,
Speaker 3: I just worked with doctor Meldrum on one. I don't
Speaker 3: want to overstate my association with him or anything, but
Speaker 3: he had been Annie. He's been to China to study
Speaker 3: the YearIn, he's been to Russia to study the Almisty,
Speaker 3: and he went you know with Ron Moore Head and
Speaker 3: John Bender Nagel and the Chinese one, I thought it
Speaker 3: was really interesting. The Russian one was kind of a
Speaker 3: nothing burger because you know, there was Zana that was
Speaker 3: supposed to be the Russian almosty that married into human society,
Speaker 3: and he said that was just that was actually an
Speaker 3: African American, not American, but African Russian lady, and it
Speaker 3: was just so rare that they thought she was an.
Speaker 2: Almisty, according to doctor Melner. But the Chinese one is
Speaker 2: really detailed.
Speaker 3: I mean they have the same They found casts there
Speaker 3: that have the mid tarsal break and the short toes structure,
Speaker 3: and those toes are really long, but only nubs stick out,
Speaker 3: but the bones go all the way to the mid
Speaker 3: tarsal break for the toes, so it has elongate toes,
Speaker 3: but you just see the little stubs at the end
Speaker 3: and then anyway so that it goes through you know,
Speaker 3: all the Chinese professors that have been studying it and
Speaker 3: that are famous in that area, and you know it
Speaker 3: talks about them stealing fruit and living in.
Speaker 2: The mountains and everything. So I really like that one.
Speaker 3: Like I said, they're more like small books than they
Speaker 3: are magazines at this point, because I went down from magazines,
Speaker 3: you know, large magazine size of eight and a half
Speaker 3: by eleven, you know, which irregular book quality. But then
Speaker 3: I went back down to six by nine I think
Speaker 3: it was Ron Moorehead actually thought that was a good idea.
Speaker 3: So because he was I was working with him on
Speaker 3: one about you know, the Sasquatch auditory, things like the
Speaker 3: Samurai sounds and whatnot.
Speaker 2: Of Sierra sounds. So anyway, so I started going six
Speaker 2: by nine. So they look like kind of like a
Speaker 2: thick version of Readers Digest at this point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's cool. I like that, and you know,
Speaker 1: old school Readers Digest. But I mean, I think maybe
Speaker 1: we'll have to have enough date in the future sometime
Speaker 1: from you and see how things are going. It seems
Speaker 1: like you're involved with a lot of cool stuff. But dude,
Speaker 1: thank you. Is there a way besides this, you know,
Speaker 1: if people want to reach out to you and maybe
Speaker 1: they're like, oh yeah, I saw a bigfoot using tools too,
Speaker 1: or is there any way that they can reach out
Speaker 1: to you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that'd be great. I have.
Speaker 3: I'm kicked off Facebook right now periodically, I do, you know,
Speaker 3: like everyone else Facebook jail as they say, but the
Speaker 3: big Foot Quest magazine. But you know, Thomas Seward, he's
Speaker 3: actually helping me out with that now because I get
Speaker 3: cough kicked off so much. So he's he's kind of
Speaker 3: run it. So big Foot Quest Magazine on YouTube and
Speaker 3: not YouTube, big Foot Quest Magazine on Facebook group Bigfoot
Speaker 3: Quest Magazine Group. And then I have a YouTube channel
Speaker 3: that kind of just faded away called the Bigfoot Show
Speaker 3: on YouTube, which I mostly my horseback searching for bigfoot stuff.
Speaker 3: And then one thing I was going to tell you
Speaker 3: too real quick. I'll just make a quick note and
Speaker 3: maybe talk about it next time, is my main goal,
Speaker 3: and this was very unpopular among the bigfoot community was
Speaker 3: I went to horse school to learn roping and I
Speaker 3: got a roping saddle, which is a little bit different
Speaker 3: than the regular trail saddle because there's apparatus.
Speaker 2: For you know, your your rope and whatnot.
Speaker 3: So anyway, I took lessons in roping and I was
Speaker 3: going to rodeo style rope a sasquatch. The reason being
Speaker 3: in California, the Spaniard, the Spanish cowboys would cabulare cabureras, cabrioleros,
Speaker 3: I can't remember how to say that, but would rope
Speaker 3: grizzly bears and sell them, sell them to zoos. And
Speaker 3: then like the cattleman started, you know, doing the same thing.
Speaker 3: They would rope grizzlies, and you know they can make
Speaker 3: extra money sell them to zoos. So I thought, if
Speaker 3: you can rope a grizzly bear, you could probably rope
Speaker 3: a a sasquatch. So anyone i'd told her, I thought
Speaker 3: I would talk about that. They think I was completely
Speaker 3: insane or stupid. You know, you're either insane or stupid,
Speaker 3: but there's no there's no other explanation. Then I thought,
Speaker 3: you know, Patterson and Gimblin.
Speaker 2: Were both rodeo cowboys.
Speaker 3: They were on their horses when they saw the sasquatch.
Speaker 3: So that's where I started thinking about it. And then
Speaker 3: Paul Freeman did some of his research on horseback. Ron
Speaker 3: Moorehead got to Sierra Sand's location on horseback, and I
Speaker 3: thought the horses might attract the saucequatch. You know, maybe
Speaker 3: they're curious about it, or I think it's something to
Speaker 3: eat and they're stalking it or whatever. But I thought,
Speaker 3: if they're stalking my horse and I can get close,
Speaker 3: I could last soom. And I wondered why I didn't
Speaker 3: Gimblin last sue it or Patterson, And then I was
Speaker 3: talking a friend of Gimblin's. I got to meet Bob Gimlin,
Speaker 3: and I was talking to a friend of his. He says, Man,
Speaker 3: the reason he didn't is he isn't he wasn't stupid.
Speaker 2: He says. If you ever rope one of those things, man,
Speaker 2: you're roping death.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 3: He's going to rip you apart. And then so I
Speaker 3: got that enough where I backed off on the idea.
Speaker 1: Probably wise, Yeah, but anyway, sorry, I got on a tangent. Hey,
Speaker 1: I think that's worth knowing as well, and I'm glad
Speaker 1: that you you stepped away from the idea. But yeah, Ray,
Speaker 1: I mean, you're a guy who's who's got a lot
Speaker 1: going on over the years, a lot of really cool
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of knowledge. But yeah, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for coming on the show. We will
Speaker 1: definitely be in touch and I appreciate you hanging out
Speaker 1: with us tonight.
Speaker 3: Okay, well, thanks for your patience on me, because you know,
Speaker 3: you know, when you retire, you don't talk.
Speaker 2: To a lot of people, see, kind of lose your
Speaker 2: social edge.
Speaker 1: It it's a good time.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 1: If there's anything I can ever do to help, I
Speaker 1: don't be afraid to reach out. But thank you, oh
Speaker 1: you have already.
Speaker 2: Thanks a lot. I really appreciate it. You have a
Speaker 2: good day. Then you got it? Okay, goodbye bye.
Speaker 1: Just wanted to take a few minutes to say thank
Speaker 1: you to you allan listeners for listening to the podcast.
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Speaker 1: all about sharing the show wherever you can. If you've
Speaker 1: had a Bigfoot encounter related to the following or know
Speaker 1: someone who has, please reach out to me at Bigfoot
Speaker 1: Society at gmail dot com or pass on my email.
Speaker 1: Here's the list. The Subtle Lake area of Oregon, Rainbow, Oregon,
Speaker 1: McKinsey Bridge area, Sweet Home, pretty much that entire area,
Speaker 1: the north part. If you get what I mean, I'll
Speaker 1: see you back next time. Listeners. SASA Summerfest this year
Speaker 1: July eleventh through the twelfth. It's going to be fantastic.
Speaker 1: July eleventh through twelfth in Greenwaters Park, Okrage, Oregon, and listeners,
Speaker 1: if you're going to go You can get a two
Speaker 1: day ticket for the cost of one if you use
Speaker 1: the code b f S like Bigfoot Society but BFS
Speaker 1: and it'll get used some off your cost. Priscilla wasn't
Speaker 1: nice enough to provide that for my listeners, So there
Speaker 1: you go. I look forward to seeing you there, so
Speaker 1: make sure you head over to www dot Sasquatch Summerfest
Speaker 1: dot com and pick up your tickets today