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Interest in the Menendez brothers case has exploded 23 00:01:48.920 --> 00:01:52.280 in the last few months, over seven hundred and seventy 24 00:01:52.439 --> 00:01:57.359 million views on TikTok. The groundswell began in twenty seventeen 25 00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:01.599 with the TV premiers of several documentary Freeze and NBC's 26 00:02:01.719 --> 00:02:05.079 eight episode limited series Law and Order True Crime, The 27 00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:10.039 Menendez Murders. Social media users were overwhelmingly sympathetic to the 28 00:02:10.039 --> 00:02:13.560 brothers during the NBC show, which debuted during the early 29 00:02:13.639 --> 00:02:18.280 days of the me Too and men Too era. Investigative 30 00:02:18.319 --> 00:02:22.120 journalists and author Robert Rand's twenty eighteen book The Menendez 31 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:26.479 Murders provided the primary source material for NBC series plug 32 00:02:26.960 --> 00:02:31.639 streaming on Amazon YouTube and Google Play. The NBC series 33 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:34.639 was one hundred and eighty degree flip from the general 34 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:37.120 perception that the brothers were just greedy, rich kids who 35 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:39.840 killed Bozzie and Harriet on a quiet Sunday night in 36 00:02:39.919 --> 00:02:43.800 Beverly Hills. There was little Internet or social media when 37 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:48.120 the brothers went on trial in nineteen ninety three. Earlier 38 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:52.240 this year, the current explosion of passionate Menendez advocates caught 39 00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:54.520 the attention of The New York Times with an article 40 00:02:54.919 --> 00:02:59.360 the New Menendez Defenders. Young people are making impassioned arguments 41 00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:02.719 for the release of Lyle and Eric Menendez. Why Now. 42 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:08.080 On April TEWOD twenty twenty one, ABC's twenty twenty aired 43 00:03:08.080 --> 00:03:11.120 a two hour special about the international movement of new 44 00:03:11.159 --> 00:03:16.479 Menendez supporters. Robert Rand continues to actively repost on the case. 45 00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:19.560 Some of the research included in his book The Menendez 46 00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:22.960 Murders could become significant new evidence when the brothers file 47 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:26.919 an appeal. New evidence has surfaced, leading to an appeal 48 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:30.919 court filing later this year and a possible third trial 49 00:03:31.039 --> 00:03:36.840 for Lyle and Eric Menendez. The program this evening is 50 00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:41.039 the New Menendez Defenders, the international movement of supporters who 51 00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:44.680 want Lyle and Eric set free, with my special guest, 52 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:48.719 journalist and author Robert Rand. Welcome back to the program, 53 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:50.439 and thank you very much for this interview. 54 00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:54.919 Robert Rand, thanks for having me back then. I believe 55 00:03:54.919 --> 00:03:56.599 we last spoke about eighteen months ago. 56 00:03:57.719 --> 00:04:00.400 Yes, it's been quite a while and in a cedible 57 00:04:00.439 --> 00:04:04.759 amount of new information and progress in this case after 58 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:11.400 thirty one years has occurred. Incredible. It seems hard to 59 00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:13.000 take us. Oh, go ahead. 60 00:04:14.599 --> 00:04:17.639 I was just going to say, this will sound hard 61 00:04:17.639 --> 00:04:21.360 to believe that I am still actively reporting a new 62 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:25.120 information connected to the Menanda's brother's case. There are people 63 00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:26.879 that I've been trying to get to talk to me 64 00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:29.959 for twenty years, and some of them have actually come 65 00:04:29.959 --> 00:04:32.279 out of the woodwork in the last few months. 66 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:37.600 Interesting, before we start all that new information that you did, 67 00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:41.600 we're privy to and do have that new information to 68 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:44.639 share with their audience this evening. Tell us about your 69 00:04:44.680 --> 00:04:47.800 fourteen year old son and the information he imparted to you. 70 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:52.959 One day, well, one day last fall in October twenty twenty, 71 00:04:53.240 --> 00:04:55.600 my fourteen year old son came to me one afternoon 72 00:04:55.879 --> 00:04:57.759 and said, Dad, you have to come take a look 73 00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:01.560 at TikTok. It's full of Menenda's brothers videos. And kind 74 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:05.319 of was surprised. And you know, he was showing me 75 00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:08.879 his phone and the videos that I was seeing back 76 00:05:09.399 --> 00:05:13.079 last fall were kind of frivolous. There were a lot 77 00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:16.079 of young women that were lip syncing to the Britney 78 00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:19.519 Spears song I'm in Love with the Criminal, and they 79 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:22.720 were cutting in video of Eric and Viiol Menendez when 80 00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:24.839 they were eighteen and twenty one at their first court 81 00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:27.560 appearance in March of nineteen ninety. Today, by the way, 82 00:05:27.639 --> 00:05:31.759 they are fifty three and fifty. But after the first 83 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:34.480 few weeks of seeing some of those initial videos, I 84 00:05:34.519 --> 00:05:39.680 was following the posts on TikTok and Instagram, and I 85 00:05:39.920 --> 00:05:42.720 noticed that everything took a turn at some point in 86 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:46.519 November twenty twenty and the videos started becoming more serious. 87 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:50.680 People were starting to post about the issues. They were 88 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:55.720 getting involved in the specific details of the case, a 89 00:05:55.720 --> 00:05:59.120 lot of minutia, and one of the ways that people 90 00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:02.560 can learn about the Menanda's case in twenty twenty is 91 00:06:02.839 --> 00:06:06.040 court TV. The old Court TV was rebooted a couple 92 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:09.879 of years ago, and in June of twenty twenty, Court 93 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:14.160 TV posted the entire six month long Menendez trial streaming 94 00:06:14.439 --> 00:06:17.480 on their website, and so you can actually watch every 95 00:06:17.560 --> 00:06:21.040 moment of the trial, including the evidence hearings, on Court TV. 96 00:06:21.319 --> 00:06:24.519 And so people were watching the court TV stream, they 97 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:30.319 were also watching documentaries. And as I saw this movement 98 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:32.480 start to grow, I started picking up a lot of 99 00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:35.959 followers on social media. I started interacting with people who 100 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:37.680 were not just in the States, but were all over 101 00:06:37.720 --> 00:06:41.560 the world. And there is a group of people that 102 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:45.560 have become thousands of accounts on social media and people 103 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:47.959 all over the world that they want to see the 104 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:51.160 Menenda's brothers have their case review, They would like to 105 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:53.519 see them be granted a new trial, and they would 106 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:56.519 like to see them be released from state prison after 107 00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:59.800 thirty one years in custody. 108 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:03.600 Now you say the perception has changed, I've read an 109 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:07.800 introduction that these guys were just greedy, rich kids that 110 00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:12.639 killed Ozzie and Harriet in Beverly Hills. So what are 111 00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:16.279 the issues that this new movement seems to identify and 112 00:07:16.040 --> 00:07:19.519 are concerned with and think that there are issues that 113 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:22.920 are deserving of Lyle and Eric to have a new trial. 114 00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:28.959 I think the biggest issue is that society has changed 115 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:32.319 so much from July of nineteen ninety three when the 116 00:07:32.360 --> 00:07:36.040 Menendez brothers went on trial in their first of two trials. 117 00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:42.079 And as you said in your intro, in the fall 118 00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:46.360 of twenty seventeen, the New York Times published their first 119 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:51.079 me too and men to hashtag stories. And actually, the 120 00:07:51.720 --> 00:07:55.040 interesting thing that happened was the NBC Law and Order 121 00:07:55.079 --> 00:07:58.000 to Prime the Menendos Murder series premier the last week 122 00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:02.279 in September and on October fifth, the New York Times 123 00:08:02.399 --> 00:08:06.480 ran their first story about Hartu and Mentu stories. And 124 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:10.480 so I was following social media during the NBC series, 125 00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:13.680 and I was surprised. I was expecting to see a 126 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:16.600 lot of the nineteen nineties haters come out of the woodwork. 127 00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:20.000 The people that you know, branded them greedy rich kids. 128 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:22.800 You know, they were following the stories that were being 129 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:27.279 you know, it was really the way the mainstream media 130 00:08:27.399 --> 00:08:30.240 was presenting the case as a pair of greedy rich kids, 131 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:34.639 and so it was interesting to see that there was 132 00:08:34.720 --> 00:08:37.320 there was a new younger generation that wasn't even born 133 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:39.960 during the first trial that had a new take on 134 00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:46.879 the story. And one of the things that I found 135 00:08:46.919 --> 00:08:52.559 it interesting about that was that people were re examining 136 00:08:52.639 --> 00:08:55.039 this case in light of the changes that we've had 137 00:08:55.080 --> 00:08:58.320 in society since nineteen ninety three. And I believe that 138 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:01.039 the Menndez brothers trial health today, or if they were 139 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:03.879 granted the new trial, there would be a completely different outcome. 140 00:09:04.159 --> 00:09:07.480 The resolution of this case should have been manslaughter, not murder, 141 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:10.200 which still would have sent them to prison for twenty 142 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:13.399 two years, and now they've been in jail for thirty 143 00:09:13.399 --> 00:09:14.759 one years. 144 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:19.159 You talk about just while we're at that right there, 145 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:23.559 you talk about that the original jurors, you say, several 146 00:09:23.759 --> 00:09:28.159 of those jurors had said that the issue of the 147 00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:32.559 familiar familial abuse, the father's abuse on Eric and Lyle, 148 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:37.759 came out and was allowed at the mitigating at the 149 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:41.399 penalty a pardon me this sentencing phase, and it as 150 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:44.279 a mitigating circumstance. They got to hear that, and the 151 00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:47.639 jurors as a result said, what what did you say that? 152 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:53.960 Several of the jurors said, once they knew that information, well, let. 153 00:09:53.799 --> 00:09:56.399 Me back up for a moment and just explain. In 154 00:09:56.440 --> 00:10:00.360 the first Menendous trial, the defense was allowed to put 155 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:05.159 on sixty five witnesses, teachers, coaches, family members, friends who 156 00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:08.519 told the detailed history of the Menendez family. In the 157 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:12.720 second trial, Judge Stanley Weisberg reversed most of his evidence 158 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:15.960 rulings and he did not allow the defense to put 159 00:10:15.960 --> 00:10:19.600 on that information and those witnesses in the guilt phase. 160 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:23.600 And in a final death blow to the defense in 161 00:10:23.639 --> 00:10:27.720 the closing days of the second trial, he ruled that 162 00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:30.399 the defense would not be allowed to argue in perfect 163 00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:33.559 self defense, which had been the heart of their case, 164 00:10:33.639 --> 00:10:35.960 and the heart of their closing arguments in the first trial. 165 00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:40.360 So the brothers were convicted by a jury in the 166 00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:43.639 second trial that heard a completely different set of evidence 167 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:46.440 from the jurors in the first trial. In the first trial, 168 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:48.720 half of the jurors there were two juries, one for 169 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:52.200 each brother. Half of the jurors voted for manslaughter. In 170 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:55.399 the second trial, jurors heard a different set of evidence. 171 00:10:56.039 --> 00:10:59.720 They voted for a first degree murder conviction in March 172 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:04.360 nineteen ninety six. And following that conviction there was the 173 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:07.279 phase in which the jurors had two choices, either to 174 00:11:08.279 --> 00:11:11.480 sentence the brothers to life without the role or sentence 175 00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:16.120 them to the gas chamber in California. And so in 176 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:18.879 the pedalty phase, the defense was allowed to put out 177 00:11:18.919 --> 00:11:21.639 all of those witnesses in the family history that have 178 00:11:21.759 --> 00:11:25.320 been the heart of their main case in the first 179 00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:29.519 menendous trial. And after the penalty phase was over and 180 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:33.720 jurors voted for life without the role, I interviewed a 181 00:11:33.799 --> 00:11:35.720 number of the jurors and several of them told me 182 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:38.480 if they had heard that evidence about the family history 183 00:11:38.519 --> 00:11:41.120 in the guild phase, they would not have voted for 184 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:42.159 first degree murder. 185 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:50.039 Certainly now you provide what you call scoops. And so 186 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:54.120 in your book chapter sixty, you talk about a person 187 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:59.320 named a cousin of Eric Menandez Andy Cannell. But tell 188 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:02.279 us a little bit about Andy Cannell's mother, Marta and 189 00:12:02.919 --> 00:12:06.279 your discovery once you spoke to her. 190 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:11.759 Sure well, Andy Cano was a key defense witness in 191 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:14.799 both trials when he was ten years old and Eric 192 00:12:14.919 --> 00:12:17.759 was twelve, and Eric had a conversation with it one 193 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:21.120 day in which he asked him if his father ever 194 00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:25.720 massaged him in his genitals, and Andy Canna was kind 195 00:12:25.720 --> 00:12:28.519 of shocked and asked a few more questions. And when 196 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:31.120 he heard the information, ten year old Andy Cano wanted 197 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:35.039 to run and tell his mother, and Eric Menendez stopped 198 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:37.360 him and said, no, you can't ever tell anybody about this, 199 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:40.559 and he made Andy's Eric made Andy square on a 200 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:43.559 pinky promise that he would never say anything to anybody 201 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:47.679 about the molestation that was going on in Menanza's family, 202 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:53.159 and the two cousins had a very close relationship. And 203 00:12:54.559 --> 00:12:56.559 in March of twenty eighteen, when I was on the 204 00:12:56.600 --> 00:13:00.960 deadline for my Menenda's book, The Menendez Murders, I was 205 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:04.480 visiting the brother's aunt Marchakano at her home in Florida, 206 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:09.080 and she allowed me to go through some papers, some 207 00:13:09.159 --> 00:13:13.840 boxes of papers of her son. Andy Cano, tragically passed 208 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:17.120 away in two thousand and three from an accidental overdose 209 00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:20.120 of sleeping bills. He was very traumatized by the whole 210 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:23.000 experience of seeing his cousin. He was very close to 211 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:26.720 go through this trial, testifying in both trials, and Andy 212 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:29.600 Cano was going through some troubles of his own, and 213 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:33.559 so in March or twenty eighteen, March Cano pulled down 214 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:37.000 some boxes from the attic of her house, and within 215 00:13:37.159 --> 00:13:40.759 fifteen minutes after I began going through Andy Cano's I 216 00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:44.159 found a letter that Eric Menendez had written to Andy 217 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:48.320 Cano in December of nineteen eighty eight, nine months before 218 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:51.840 the murders, in which Eric Menendez was complaining about the 219 00:13:51.919 --> 00:13:58.320 ongoing abuse by his father. And Eric Menendez was seventeen 220 00:13:58.399 --> 00:13:58.960 years old. 221 00:13:58.840 --> 00:14:03.759 At the time. Why do you think this is? I 222 00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:06.000 know this at a different time and we have a 223 00:14:06.039 --> 00:14:13.000 different mentality and sensibility. But how important is that evidence 224 00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:18.600 and what does it say compared to the other evidence 225 00:14:19.320 --> 00:14:23.440 that the defense had at some point, or at least 226 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:28.480 they mentioned in the penalty phase of the second trial. 227 00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:33.559 So why is this so crucial information and evidence in 228 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:34.039 your mind? 229 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:39.360 Well, first, the Eric Menendez letter to Andy Cano that 230 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:43.480 never came into either trial. That was never that never 231 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:47.240 appeared in any evidence hearing. Nobody knew it existed until 232 00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:50.679 I founded it in the attic of Eric Mark Cano. 233 00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:54.639 So that is a brand new piece of evidence. There 234 00:14:54.679 --> 00:14:57.759 is additional evidence that I've been going through the hundreds 235 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:01.440 of audio taped interviews that I've conduct. I've covered this 236 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:04.440 case since August twenty first, nineteen eighty nine, less than 237 00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:09.440 twelve hours after the Menendez murders in Beverly Hills, and 238 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:13.000 by audiotape. Interviews begin with Eric and Lyle Menendez in 239 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:16.799 October of nineteen eighty nine, two months after the murders, 240 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:20.000 five months before they were arrested, and the brothers were 241 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:23.200 not suspect publicly, I had no reason to be suspicious 242 00:15:23.240 --> 00:15:26.679 to them, and they spent we spent three days talking together, 243 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:29.039 and they told me how much they'd loved their parents 244 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:33.600 and how close knit the family was. And so I'm 245 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:37.440 now going through these audio tapes, and I never had 246 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:40.320 the time because I was actively involved in the coverage 247 00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:42.679 of the trial. I never had the time to transcribe things, 248 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:44.399 and so I had a lot of interviews that I 249 00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:47.960 had recorded. For example, I might have a nineteen nineties 250 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:51.000 audio set forty five minutes on each side with maybe 251 00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:53.480 six or eight different people of that tape, and I 252 00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:55.759 had the names of the people on the tape, but 253 00:15:55.919 --> 00:16:01.080 I didn't have the content transcribed. What I have found 254 00:16:01.240 --> 00:16:06.200 in the last year is information from friends of Lyle 255 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:09.759 Menendez who knew about the molestation that was going on 256 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:13.399 in the Menenda's family four or five months before the murders, 257 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:19.279 and those are witnesses information that never appeared in either trial. 258 00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:27.200 You also spoke to Marta, which was Jose's sister, and 259 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:31.559 there's some disturbing information you got about his background or 260 00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:33.000 their background growing up. 261 00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:40.519 That's right about ten or twelve years ago. Marzicano Marxicano, 262 00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:43.879 was my original entry into the Menanda's family. I met 263 00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:46.080 her a couple of weeks after the murders when I 264 00:16:46.120 --> 00:16:49.679 was working for the Miami Herald, and my original assignment 265 00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:52.440 for the Miami Herald Sunday magazine in nineteen eighty nine 266 00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:56.519 was to write a biography about Jose Menendez, Cuban American 267 00:16:56.600 --> 00:16:59.519 rights and richest story as in a terrible tragedy, because 268 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:01.559 the murders were in August of eighty nine, but the 269 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:05.240 brothers were not arrested until March of nineteen ninety. So 270 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:08.759 I was working on this biography of Jose Menendez, and 271 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:11.519 as I said, the brothers were not suspects publicly, I 272 00:17:11.559 --> 00:17:14.440 had no reason to be suspicious to them. So I 273 00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:17.720 have known mart Cano since September of nineteen eighty nine, 274 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:21.960 and about ten or twelve years ago, she made a 275 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:25.319 cryptic comment to me in which she said, after my 276 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:29.240 mother passes away, I'm going to reveal some information to you. 277 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:33.960 And fast forward to the spring of twenty eighteen when 278 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:37.279 Marchicano sat down with me one day and told me 279 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:42.680 that her mother had been sexually molesting Jose Menendez, her brother, 280 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:46.279 between the ages of about four and seven years old. 281 00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:50.839 And this was shocking information to me, again something that 282 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:54.799 had never come into either trial. And right around that 283 00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:58.880 same time, I was able to confirm with Kitty Menendez's 284 00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:03.079 sister that Kit Menendez had been sexually molested by an 285 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:06.480 older family member when she was a little girl. So 286 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:12.519 this was These were two significant pieces of information I've 287 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:17.720 learned through research that about one third of abuse victims 288 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:23.240 grow up and abuse children when when they are adults. 289 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:26.039 Of course, that means you know, two thirds do not. 290 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:30.440 But this was new information that had never come in 291 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:33.680 to eat a trial. And I think what the most 292 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:38.000 important one line summary I can tell people about Menenda's 293 00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:43.039 case is this is a story of intergenerational sexual abuse 294 00:18:43.240 --> 00:18:49.279 and mental illness. And the way people approach the Menenda's case, 295 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:53.480 journalists that are covering it is they try to take 296 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:55.839 this you know, square peg and put it in a 297 00:18:55.880 --> 00:18:58.640 round hole and say, you know, and try to try 298 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:02.000 to present it as a tradition true crime story. And 299 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:05.759 this is not a traditional true crime story. The Menendaz 300 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:12.119 the real Menendez family saga is this family background and 301 00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:16.519 what happened in this family that had trouble going back generations, 302 00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:21.759 including the brother's grandmother who molested Jose Menendez. She was 303 00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:24.240 grew up in a household in a small town in 304 00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:30.079 Cuba called Artemista, with five older brothers and a couple uncles, 305 00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:33.000 and she was sexually molested when she was a little girl. 306 00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:37.480 So this is a typical situation that I've learned about 307 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:41.680 in my research about the abuse and molestation where the 308 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:44.319 abuse jumps from generation to generation. 309 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:52.200 You talk about also, I know I'm changing subjects a 310 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:55.839 little bit, but the incredible story of doctor jerome o'zell. 311 00:19:57.240 --> 00:19:59.759 Is there any I know you don't mention it per se, 312 00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:04.039 but is there any issue you have with this evidence, 313 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:09.359 this confident usually what would be considered confidential information between 314 00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:12.640 a patient and client coming out in the way that 315 00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:16.519 it did, this information being an admissible at court? Is 316 00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:20.240 do you have any issue with that ruling? And do 317 00:20:20.279 --> 00:20:23.440 you think anyone else will if there's a potential third trial. 318 00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:28.920 Well, the story of doctor Jeromo Ziel and his mistress, 319 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:33.000 Judelan Smith could be a book in itself. Doctor Lezill 320 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:36.599 was the therapist that Eric Menendez met in the fall 321 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:39.880 of nineteen eighty eight when both of the Menanda's brothers 322 00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:44.359 were involved in some burglaries in Calabasa's suburb of Los Angeles, 323 00:20:44.920 --> 00:20:52.680 and Eric Menendez was arrested and had a case that 324 00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:57.000 was in juvenile court in La County, and as part 325 00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:01.160 of the resolution of that case now court judge ordered 326 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:04.279 that he undergo an evaluation by a therapist, and Kiddy 327 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:07.440 Menendez has actually seen two different therapists on her own 328 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:09.799 at that time, and one of them referred her to 329 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:16.559 doctor Jeromosil and Beverly Hills psychologist. And oddly, doctor Roseil 330 00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:23.079 specialty was sexual therapy for couples, but he was just 331 00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:26.279 hired by the Menendez family to do an evaluation of 332 00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:30.480 Eric and so then and then Eric did have some 333 00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:36.440 additional therapy sessions with doctor Roziel after initially meeting him 334 00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:39.960 in the spring of nineteen eighty nine. And that's information 335 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:43.240 that has never come out actually in any meeting. So 336 00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:48.160 doctor rose so in pass forward to So the murders 337 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:51.440 are August of nineteen eighty nine, and I spent three 338 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:54.400 days talking to Eric and Loo Menendez on the weekend 339 00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:57.440 of October twentieth, nineteen eighty nine, and this was always 340 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:01.160 interesting to me. On Halloween eight nine, about eleven days 341 00:22:01.160 --> 00:22:04.839 after I met with the brothers, Eric Menendez called doctor Rozil, 342 00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:07.599 the only therapist he had never known, and said that 343 00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:10.480 he was very troubled and that he needed to meet 344 00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:15.359 with him. And I'm Halloween. Eric Menendez confessed to doctor 345 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:19.200 Rozield that the Menanda's brothers were responsible for killing their parents. 346 00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:23.640 Doctor Rozil, you know, within a few minutes, said Eric, 347 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:25.279 you need to call your brother and I want him 348 00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:28.319 to come to the office right away. And it was Halloween. 349 00:22:28.599 --> 00:22:31.759 Lyle Menendez was at the Menenda's mansion passing out candy 350 00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:34.960 to kids with his girlfriend and he raced over to 351 00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:39.079 doctor Roziel's office and he was very upset when he 352 00:22:39.079 --> 00:22:42.720 found out brother had confessed to doctor Roziel. And the 353 00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:46.440 brothers met with doctor Roziel for about an hour, and 354 00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:51.000 Lyle Menendas became frustrated and grabbed Eric and said, I 355 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:54.920 don't want to continue talking to him. Let's leave, and 356 00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:58.200 doctor Roziel followed the brothers out into the hallway and 357 00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:02.480 at the elevator. Doctor rosial testified during the first Menendez 358 00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:06.400 trial that Lyle Menendez turned Doctor rozial was trying to 359 00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:09.160 get the brothers to come back and continue the therapy session, 360 00:23:09.400 --> 00:23:12.599 and Lyl Menne said, nope, I'm out of here, and 361 00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:16.119 according to doctor Roziale's testimony, Lyle Manendez turned to him 362 00:23:16.599 --> 00:23:19.279 and shook his hand and said good luck, Doctor Roseiel, 363 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:24.079 and then the brothers left, and in his testimony, doctor 364 00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:28.160 roseieal claimed that he interpreted that handshake in that phrase 365 00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:33.200 good luck, doctor Roziel as a threat from lyle Manettes. Normally, 366 00:23:33.400 --> 00:23:36.160 you have a privilege with a therapist in California like 367 00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:40.480 every other state in which you know, anything that you 368 00:23:40.599 --> 00:23:44.480 discussed with your therapist is privileged and confidential. But there 369 00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:47.720 is an exception in California called the pterosoft rule, which 370 00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:50.720 is if you threaten your therapist, or for example, if 371 00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:52.599 you tell your therapist, I'm going to go kill my 372 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:56.799 girlfriend tomorrow, the therapist is obligated to break the privilege 373 00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:00.680 and contact law enforcement in that specific situation, or in 374 00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:03.720 the situation of if you threaten your therapist, the therapist 375 00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:08.039 is allowed to break the confidentiality and tell people around 376 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:10.640 him in order to protect them, in order to keep 377 00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:15.039 them safe. And so doctor Ozel's story is that he 378 00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:19.880 was threatened by Lyle Menandez and that he had to 379 00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:24.640 tell his wife, his mistress, He had a whole circle 380 00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:28.480 of people that he told about the brother's confession. And 381 00:24:28.519 --> 00:24:32.759 then the brothers continued having therapy sessions with doctor Ozel, 382 00:24:33.559 --> 00:24:38.240 and in the subsequent sessions that took place in November 383 00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:44.440 of nineteen eighty nine, the power balance and the relationship 384 00:24:44.519 --> 00:24:46.839 kind of shifted, and doctor Ozeal kind of felt like 385 00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:51.599 he was in control of things, and according to accusations 386 00:24:51.640 --> 00:24:55.599 the defense made during the first Menendez trial, doctor Ozel 387 00:24:55.960 --> 00:25:00.119 was blackmailing the Menandos brothers, and the evidence of that, 388 00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:03.359 according to the family and the defense, is that he 389 00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:07.359 told the brothers that he was going to schedule therapy 390 00:25:07.400 --> 00:25:10.079 sessions for them five days a week, one session for 391 00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:16.400 each brother and according to the defense evidence, the brothers 392 00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:18.599 never went to any of those therapy sessions, but he 393 00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:21.759 was billing the family in Doctor Roziel, according to the 394 00:25:21.799 --> 00:25:25.279 brothers and the family made it clear that I don't 395 00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:27.279 care if you ever show up for these therapy sessions. 396 00:25:27.319 --> 00:25:29.960 I'm billing your family. And so the family members started 397 00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:33.359 getting these large bills eight thousand dollars, ten thousand dollars, 398 00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:36.160 twelve thousand dollars, and they were asking the brothers what's 399 00:25:36.200 --> 00:25:39.319 going on, and the brothers said, no, Aunt Mark said, 400 00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:43.680 these therapy sessions are important. We want to continue seeing 401 00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:48.359