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<v Speaker 1>Hello, friends and fellow skeptics. Welcome to another episode of

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<v Speaker 1>the Nonprofits. Today's episode, we're going to talk about a

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<v Speaker 1>popular cartoon and how it portrays parenthood. And Cyndy Plus

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<v Speaker 1>is going to start us off. So Sundy, what have

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<v Speaker 1>you got for us? Hi?

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<v Speaker 2>So, Yeah, today we're going to start our show with

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<v Speaker 2>what I only can call a masterpiece. We often talked

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<v Speaker 2>here about Christian outcry at changing in society, but this

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<v Speaker 2>article from Jeremy Pryor, an utra conservative writer, brought to

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<v Speaker 2>our attention by Amman Metta, it brings us to the

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<v Speaker 2>living hell conservative people seem to be living in. Jeremy

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<v Speaker 2>Prior complains about a bit of it carton Bluie, claiming

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<v Speaker 2>that its depiction of father figure is a symptom of

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<v Speaker 2>how the West has removed from fatherhood everything mainly about it.

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<v Speaker 2>These articles are from Blaze Media by Jerry pryor Or

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<v Speaker 2>October six, twenty twenty four, and the friendly atheist Bioman

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<v Speaker 2>Medaw on October eighth of the same year.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's go Yeah, it seems it seems a little weird

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<v Speaker 1>that they that they would pick a child's cartoon to

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<v Speaker 1>go after. And yeah, there's a lot of things I

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<v Speaker 1>find weird about this, But they always do seem to

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<v Speaker 1>find things wrong with children shows, don't they. I remember

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<v Speaker 1>controversies over Barney and about the Teletubbies too, as I

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<v Speaker 1>recall Big one of over the Teletubbies. As I recall,

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<v Speaker 1>so they see Citia shaking her head. So I'm going

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<v Speaker 1>to go to you first because I see you shaking

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<v Speaker 1>your head, and I know you had some thoughts about

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<v Speaker 1>One of the things that Prior talked about was appealing

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<v Speaker 1>to tradition, and I was hoping you can elaborate and

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<v Speaker 1>some of the thoughts you had about that.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, Kelly, one glaring issue is the fallacy of appealing

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<v Speaker 3>to tradition. Prior's core argument rests on the belief that

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<v Speaker 3>traditional roles supposedly ordained by biblical text should be preserved

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<v Speaker 3>without question. He states, masculinity and femininity are not social

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<v Speaker 3>constructs but primarily biological concept but our family concepts designed

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<v Speaker 3>to create a certain dynamic, and that embracing these portrayals

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<v Speaker 3>will shape our intuition around the essence of these roles.

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<v Speaker 3>This is really a classic example of the naturalistic fallacy.

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<v Speaker 3>Just because something has been historically or biblically upheld does

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<v Speaker 3>not make it inherently right or beneficial for modern society.

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<v Speaker 3>Prior also assumes without evidence that traditional gender roles are

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<v Speaker 3>inherently superior, ignoring the fact that rigid gender roles have

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<v Speaker 3>often led to horrimble dynamic harmful dynamics within family.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, definitely, definitely. Now, John, I know that the story

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<v Speaker 1>reminded you of something. Would you please let the viewers

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<v Speaker 1>know what it was that it reminded you of.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it reminds me of some of the things, like

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<v Speaker 4>desperate actions that someone trying to hang on to the

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<v Speaker 4>last vestiges of their privilege and personal mythology that's been

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<v Speaker 4>challenged by an evolving civilization. They just are lashing out

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<v Speaker 4>at the rest of the advancing civilization, and since change

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<v Speaker 4>is scary, they'd rather stick with what they know, And

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<v Speaker 4>they also want to keep their privileged position in that

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<v Speaker 4>old society. As other people gain the same sort of

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<v Speaker 4>equality within the society and their citizenship. It really makes

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<v Speaker 4>them feel like they're being left behind, mainly because they are.

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<v Speaker 4>And conservatism does not want to conserve anything. It wants

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<v Speaker 4>to regress back to an imagined idyllic past, retreating into

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<v Speaker 4>roles and patterns of behavior that try to mimic their

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<v Speaker 4>concept of a non existent romanticized world where men were

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<v Speaker 4>quote unquote men and women were compliant drones. So that's

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<v Speaker 4>kind of where I'm going with that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I know that prior talked about the objective ideal

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<v Speaker 1>of what fatherhood and motherhood are and I and as

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<v Speaker 1>I was reading that, I was like, well, who's objective?

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<v Speaker 1>You know, objective view is he talking about? And it

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<v Speaker 1>and it because even obviously it's it's not an objective

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<v Speaker 1>view unless we all agree on it, and even if

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<v Speaker 1>we all agreed on it, we would have to all

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<v Speaker 1>agree on it, So it would be a subjective view

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<v Speaker 1>to begin with, because just by all getting together and

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<v Speaker 1>agreeing on it. So but the objective and subjectives seem

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<v Speaker 1>to be really important in Christianity, and and here they're

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<v Speaker 1>bringing it out even more and I don't know that

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's uh, I don't know that they realize that

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<v Speaker 1>there really is no objective fatherhood or motherhood. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>the idea of that to me was really crazy. I know, Cindy,

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<v Speaker 1>there were a lot of things in this article that

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<v Speaker 1>made that you made you want to talk about, But

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<v Speaker 1>what would you say were some of the most important

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<v Speaker 1>things that that you got out of the article?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So, first of all, I want to ask him

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<v Speaker 2>what part of our biology says that men are supposed

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<v Speaker 2>to be wearing blue and women pink? Because I don't

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<v Speaker 2>see the link between the two. But yeah, anyway, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>there's at least half a dozen things I wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about after reading this article, the toll, lack of

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<v Speaker 2>solution afford to his perceived problem, his views on gender,

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<v Speaker 2>how he believes Abram is the meta Father as he

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<v Speaker 2>called him, showing a very very selective view of the Bible,

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<v Speaker 2>or how he based his entire opinion on the show

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<v Speaker 2>and his will to write an entire article about it

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<v Speaker 2>on a three minute clips But instead, I wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>address the fear that transpires from this article, and Jonathan

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<v Speaker 2>alluded to it a little bit earlier, And I feel

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<v Speaker 2>that at its heart, conservatism is fear of being wrong,

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<v Speaker 2>fear of being new, less in our society, and fear

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<v Speaker 2>of being irrelevant. And since we are a social creature,

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<v Speaker 2>we need to we need to feel like we are

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<v Speaker 2>part of the group. So as atheists dealing with people

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<v Speaker 2>who hang strong to their beliefs, we know this feeling

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<v Speaker 2>too well, because we hear about it every week and

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<v Speaker 2>we also experience it in other topics in our lives

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<v Speaker 2>because we are always wrong about something and being wrong

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<v Speaker 2>hurts in a way. And when people are afraid of

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<v Speaker 2>being wrong and they're invested so much in their view,

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<v Speaker 2>they can react strongly to opposing ideas. And there's the

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<v Speaker 2>reason why this happens, in my opinion, this proportionately in

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<v Speaker 2>the US compared to Europe, for example, because in the

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<v Speaker 2>US people link their own sense of identity to their beliefs,

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<v Speaker 2>and we call that identity politics in the US. So

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<v Speaker 2>when your sense of self is so strongly linked to

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<v Speaker 2>your beliefs and you attack to your belief or conversation

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<v Speaker 2>to your beliefs, feels like an attack on your person,

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<v Speaker 2>on physical attack, And just like a physical attack would

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<v Speaker 2>trigger defense mechanism like yeah, you know, trying to either

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<v Speaker 2>avoid or trying to defend yourself contradicting ideas will make

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<v Speaker 2>those people often dig deeper in their position, and that's

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<v Speaker 2>what feeds into the conservative movement. So as people who

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<v Speaker 2>try to be rational thinkers, I think we need to

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<v Speaker 2>do a better job at explaining people you are not

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<v Speaker 2>your beliefs. You can change your beliefs and it won't

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<v Speaker 2>change you as a person, and that's something we need

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<v Speaker 2>to express a little bit more in my opinion.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that was really insightful. Hannestly, that was great. One

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<v Speaker 1>of the things that I that got me that really

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<v Speaker 1>stood out in the article was Prior mentioned that how

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<v Speaker 1>important symbols were in molding kids' minds, and I thought, well,

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<v Speaker 1>isn't that what the church? I mean, the church is

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<v Speaker 1>guiltier than any cartoon or as guilty, and they've been

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<v Speaker 1>doing it for centuries. You know. It's almost like the

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<v Speaker 1>cartoons actually got the idea from the church. So I

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<v Speaker 1>thought it was really interesting that he would bring it

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<v Speaker 1>up and be complaining of, oh my godness, these cartoons

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<v Speaker 1>are using symbols to mold kids minds, you know, And

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<v Speaker 1>I don't even think for a minute that he even

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<v Speaker 1>thought about that's exactly what the church was doing, right.

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<v Speaker 1>So I know that conservatives like Jeremy Prior to author

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<v Speaker 1>this article are not always doing what they are saying

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<v Speaker 1>that they're doing what they as opposed to what they're

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<v Speaker 1>actually doing. Do you have any thoughts on that, John.

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<v Speaker 4>You know what really bothers me about that is that

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<v Speaker 4>hypocrisy knows no bounds when it comes to a cultural shift.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, one of the rhetorical techniques that a lot

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<v Speaker 4>of these people use is blaming their opponents with things

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<v Speaker 4>that they're doing or being hip critical. But it's not

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<v Speaker 4>just hypocritical. It's a technique used to distract from their

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<v Speaker 4>own misdeeds. So even though they are the ones who

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<v Speaker 4>are indulging in massive indoctrination of children, they're always a

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<v Speaker 4>claiming that the other side is doing it. So and

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<v Speaker 4>not to say that we're both doing it, but to

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<v Speaker 4>say that only the other side is doing it, and

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<v Speaker 4>that means that's a dirty trick in dark psychology to

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<v Speaker 4>try and shift the attention of the focus from your

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<v Speaker 4>particular point of view, which could be nasty, to the

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<v Speaker 4>other person's point of view, which if it wasn't nasty,

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<v Speaker 4>you're going to make it nasty. You know, you're going

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<v Speaker 4>to say it's what you're doing, which is the nasty stuff.

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<v Speaker 4>So it's like, come on, people, stop trying to deceive people,

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<v Speaker 4>and just if you have an ideology or if you

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<v Speaker 4>have a way of thinking about something, just be honest

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<v Speaker 4>about it. And then if you're honest with yourself about it,

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<v Speaker 4>be honest with everybody. If you can't defend it, maybe

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<v Speaker 4>you ought to consider changing it. But you know that's

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<v Speaker 4>not what they do. They're going to defend it at

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<v Speaker 4>all costs, and that means being hypocritical, that means lying

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<v Speaker 4>a lot, you know, that sort of thing, just to

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<v Speaker 4>maintain your position, which you have too much emotionally invested

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<v Speaker 4>in it to give it up right at the moment

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<v Speaker 4>until you're forced to for some other reason. So that's

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<v Speaker 4>one of the things that just really irks me about

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<v Speaker 4>some of these people, you know, their need to preserve

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<v Speaker 4>their heritage that never really existed in the first place,

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<v Speaker 4>because it's all an invention of their their own ideas

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<v Speaker 4>of what history was and what actually happened. All of

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<v Speaker 4>us are guilty of a little bit of bias, especially historically,

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<v Speaker 4>but a lot of us have the facts wrong. But

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<v Speaker 4>most of us, especially atheists and humanists, when words told

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<v Speaker 4>our facts are on we say, oh really, oh okay,

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<v Speaker 4>let me let me read that first, because I'm obviously

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<v Speaker 4>wrong about many things about this. If I'm starting to

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<v Speaker 4>if I have, you know, different facts that don't exist,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, let me go find the other parts of

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<v Speaker 4>that that I'm not looking at, and well, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>so we always admit, okay, I didn't know that and

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<v Speaker 4>go on from there. Whereas people who are entrenched in

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<v Speaker 4>their positions, they're not willing to look at any other

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<v Speaker 4>data because they and they will demonize anybody who does

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<v Speaker 4>look at any other data because they have too much invested,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, their identity, but not just their identity, their

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<v Speaker 4>social standing and a bunch of other stuff are also

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<v Speaker 4>attached to it, and that makes it dangerous for them

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<v Speaker 4>to try and change.

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<v Speaker 1>That's why it's often hard to talk to tis, at

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<v Speaker 1>least in my experience, when you attack the religion, they

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<v Speaker 1>take it personal as if you're attacking them because they

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<v Speaker 1>think that they are their religion for you. It's kind

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<v Speaker 1>of difficult sometimes to talk to them. Cynthia, there was

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<v Speaker 1>something I probably should have brought up first at the

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<v Speaker 1>very beginning of this segment, and it was about the

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<v Speaker 1>name of the cartoon character to begin with, Gluie. It

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<v Speaker 1>didn't come from the creators trying to be gender neutral,

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<v Speaker 1>did it now?

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<v Speaker 3>And actually himn't. Meta pointed out in his article that

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<v Speaker 3>blue isn't blue because the creators are trying to push

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<v Speaker 3>back against like a gender stereotype. Blue is a blue healer,

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<v Speaker 3>which is a type of Australian herd dog. So this

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<v Speaker 3>completely deflates Prior's argument, showing that much of his critique

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<v Speaker 3>is based on over analysis and misplaced assumptions. Listen, I

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<v Speaker 3>think it's like very interesting how you would hear from

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<v Speaker 3>the right. There are certain roles that you know, genders

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<v Speaker 3>are supposed to play just because tradition dictates right. Girls

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<v Speaker 3>are supposed to be represented as pink as like he

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<v Speaker 3>talks about in the article. Boys are supposed to be

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<v Speaker 3>represented in blue. And there's other things like you know,

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<v Speaker 3>the pushback against Blue's dad bandit that you know, he's

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<v Speaker 3>not supposed to show as much affection to his pupps

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<v Speaker 3>as he does and if you do that then you're

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<v Speaker 3>not a real man or or whatever that means. I

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<v Speaker 3>don't I don't understand any of that.

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<v Speaker 1>That one kind of urbs me a lot because I

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<v Speaker 1>was a stay at home husband, so that just blew

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<v Speaker 1>me away. But I'm sorry to jump in, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>and and.

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<v Speaker 3>To be honest with you, Kelly, as an anecdote, like

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<v Speaker 3>even though my my mom worked in nine to five,

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<v Speaker 3>my dad had his own business. So he had his

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<v Speaker 3>own like school bus company, so and he used to

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<v Speaker 3>drive for Catholic area schools. So if I was at school,

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<v Speaker 3>and let's say, for instance, I got sick, or if

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<v Speaker 3>I had to come home or what have you, guess

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<v Speaker 3>who I was staying with. My mother did not leave work.

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<v Speaker 3>I stayed with my dad, you know. And and I

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<v Speaker 3>mean like and and I and I could even think

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<v Speaker 3>of like a lot of different instances growing up where

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<v Speaker 3>you know, I did a lot of things with my dad,

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<v Speaker 3>like going out to movies, going to the play part,

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<v Speaker 3>going to different parts, you know, just different things I

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<v Speaker 3>did with my dad. And my dad didn't have a

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<v Speaker 3>problem like hugging me and kissing me and told me

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<v Speaker 3>he loved me, I mean, and to be honest, like

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<v Speaker 3>when he thought I didn't need it as much when

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<v Speaker 3>I became a teenager, I had to check him real

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<v Speaker 3>quick and say, listen, I need that from you, sir, Okay,

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<v Speaker 3>I need all that. Don't. You can't feed me all

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<v Speaker 3>I love and you're trying to take away. I'm I'm

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<v Speaker 3>gonna box you.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think that that's even something that I try.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm serious, Johnny, that's serious. And I think that that's

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<v Speaker 3>even something that I try to like instill in my child,

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<v Speaker 3>like that, whether it's your father or whether it's me

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<v Speaker 3>or or family members, it doesn't matter what you know,

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<v Speaker 3>gender you are, what you identify, ask you know. We're

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<v Speaker 3>about love. We're family, and we want to love you.

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<v Speaker 3>We want to hold you when to keep you safe.

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<v Speaker 3>And how that is supposed to be displayed to you

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<v Speaker 3>doesn't have to be like this aloof thing, like some

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<v Speaker 3>type of character from a nineteen fifties car nineteen fifty sitcom.

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<v Speaker 3>That's ridiculous to me. So I think, like you all

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<v Speaker 3>said it early, that in essence, priors conservativism is just

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<v Speaker 3>an unwillingness to adapt to modern understandings of fatherhood and

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<v Speaker 3>an over reliance on rigid patriarchal interpretations of the Bible.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, and and I and from my standpoint, the

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<v Speaker 3>Bible is not a good book to use two rear children,

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<v Speaker 3>like God is a terrible character to pattern your parental

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<v Speaker 3>ideology after. I mean, there's a there's a shirt that

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<v Speaker 3>a friend of mine created from another friend that was

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<v Speaker 3>on a podcast that said Jesus was thrown in the

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<v Speaker 3>bus so that God could get clout, okay, And and

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<v Speaker 3>I could just and I just remember like all my

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<v Speaker 3>Bible lessons back in the day about Jesus in the

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<v Speaker 3>Garden of Geestsenomy, the night that he was crucified, crying

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<v Speaker 3>and sweating blood because he knew of the pending torture

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<v Speaker 3>that he was going to go through to save the world,

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<v Speaker 3>which never really saved the world. That's another show. But

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<v Speaker 3>but you know, if you could just think about like

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<v Speaker 3>a so called loving father is going to send you

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<v Speaker 3>to get whipped what how many times with the cant

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<v Speaker 3>of nine tails, like thirty lashes with the cat of

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<v Speaker 3>nine tails. I mean like yeah, they're like right, like

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<v Speaker 3>like the Cata nine tails is like these like these

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<v Speaker 3>whips that have like little metal rocks that have hooks

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<v Speaker 3>in them that like stick you in your your flesh,

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<v Speaker 3>I mean pricking piercing with a sword now into a

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<v Speaker 3>cross like that's horrible. But I'm a loving chidn't know,

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<v Speaker 3>so I need prior to go ahead. Again, as as

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<v Speaker 3>as we say in my in my culture, have several seats.

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<v Speaker 4>If you need it, I'm willing to give you a

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<v Speaker 4>hug any time.

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<v Speaker 3>I appreciate I need that. I need that. John and

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<v Speaker 3>I will come all the way down to where you

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<v Speaker 3>are just to get a hooked thank.

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<v Speaker 1>You, Sidyah. I know mister Pryor expressed a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>very conservative ideals in this. Do you think it's fair

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<v Speaker 1>to judge the children's cartoon by those standards?

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<v Speaker 3>No? No, I mean because it's like, listen, children's cartoons

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<v Speaker 3>are going to be whatever that creator is going to

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<v Speaker 3>do in order to appeal to a certain demographic of kids, right.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, Bluie is basically a harmless cartoon out of Australia,

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<v Speaker 3>which you know, I know that every time that it

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<v Speaker 3>comes on, I hear my kid going mom, dad, like

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<v Speaker 3>you know, bingo, Like he is into that thing, right,

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<v Speaker 3>And I remember like watching like kids cartoons and kids

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<v Speaker 3>shows like mister Rogers, and I even remember watching Barney

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<v Speaker 3>back in the day and all this other stuff, and

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<v Speaker 3>like I still sing that I Love You songs from

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<v Speaker 3>time to time. I mean, like I think that his

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<v Speaker 3>idea of okay, well, like because I have it in

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<v Speaker 3>my head that you know, families are supposed to look

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<v Speaker 3>like this and father's supposed to treat their kids like this,

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<v Speaker 3>and it's based on this arbitrary standard that was set

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<v Speaker 3>a long time ago. That it's not rooted in anything scientific,

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<v Speaker 3>is just based on whatever type of patriarchal value that

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<v Speaker 3>you have at that particular time is ridiculous, and I

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<v Speaker 3>really need for him to allow creators to create the

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<v Speaker 3>shows that they want to create, which actually Blui's dad

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<v Speaker 3>is showing healthy, healthy affection towards his pups, just like

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<v Speaker 3>parents should show healthy affection towards their children.

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<v Speaker 1>All Right, Cindy, you brought us into this segment. You

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<v Speaker 1>want to take us out, and I want to give

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<v Speaker 1>you the last word.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I want to answer your last question with a

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<v Speaker 2>slightly different take. I think it's fair to judge cartoons

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<v Speaker 2>in general. They are heavily judged, and that's fine, that's

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<v Speaker 2>that's that's entirely normal. But I think it's fair to compare, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>this antiquated view against nothing. I don't think there's anything

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<v Speaker 2>today that needs to be judged in regards to this

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<v Speaker 2>this view. You know, Uh, I just realized that I've

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<v Speaker 2>felt for a very long time that the the the

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<v Speaker 2>idea of heaven was extremely childish to me. That's something

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<v Speaker 2>something that I've said quite often, and it's because it's

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<v Speaker 2>extremely simple, you know, everyone's happy, everyone's alive. And and

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<v Speaker 2>you know it's it's it's extremely basic.

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<v Speaker 3>And Cindy askat curse, she'll tell you all about heaven

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<v Speaker 3>in her yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Wins.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and and and this, what's the point gender roles

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<v Speaker 2>coming from the Bible. It's it's the exact same thing.

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<v Speaker 2>It's extremely basic. It's men do this, women do that

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<v Speaker 2>because it's easy to explain, easy to understand, easy to remember,

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<v Speaker 2>easy to enforce. And it's just as relevant today as

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<v Speaker 2>the principle of heaven is. It's nonsense.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, great, and I hey, you know what, there's

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of great merch over at tiny dot c

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<v Speaker 1>c slash aca merch. You should go check some of

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<v Speaker 1>it down.