WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>M seventeen has been dropped from MMDVM support. It's no

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<v Speaker 1>longer included in WPSD, and there's been some turmoil about it.

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<v Speaker 1>Check this out. I actually got this in email, and

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<v Speaker 1>then about the same day, this was maybe three days

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<v Speaker 1>ago at the time of this recording, about the same day,

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<v Speaker 1>I start getting emails from a bunch of you guys

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<v Speaker 1>sending me information about what they were doing. One guy

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<v Speaker 1>sent me an article that Jerry from Connect Systems had

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<v Speaker 1>written about them trying to convince Jonathan Naylor, the main

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<v Speaker 1>guy in charge of MMDVM, that he's the one who

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<v Speaker 1>wants to drop it. And WPSD is what Bridgecom puts

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<v Speaker 1>on their hotspots, and that's no longer including MMDVM. But

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<v Speaker 1>that's outside of Bridgecomm's control. That's up to the WPSD developers.

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<v Speaker 1>And if it wasn't some kind of turmoil, then it

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't be ham radio. So here's an article. This came

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<v Speaker 1>across my news story feed right about the time that

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<v Speaker 1>everyone started sending me emails about it. MMDVM, a popular

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<v Speaker 1>software and hardware project that powers many amateur rated hotspots,

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<v Speaker 1>has announced the intention to drop M seventeen Digital Voice

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<v Speaker 1>and Data Protocol as a supported mode. M seventeen is

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<v Speaker 1>the newest mode. I've had the M seventeen guys on

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<v Speaker 1>this channel a couple of times, interview them at a

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<v Speaker 1>couple of hamfests. It's a open source digital voice mode

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<v Speaker 1>built on CODEC two, which is an open source codec.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to talk about open source here in a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit. I think open source is both good and bad.

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<v Speaker 1>What do I mean by that? Stay tuned. Most of

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<v Speaker 1>your other digital voice protocols, d STAR, DMR, System Fusion

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<v Speaker 1>P twenty five and DS rely on a protocol called

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<v Speaker 1>either amb AMBE or some of the older ones that

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<v Speaker 1>are IMBE. Both of these protocols are owned by a

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<v Speaker 1>company called DVSI, and they make a chip that they

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<v Speaker 1>will license to anyone. You just have to buy it

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<v Speaker 1>from DVSI. That's why there's so many Chinese manufacturers making

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<v Speaker 1>DMR radios, because you just purchase a license from DVSI,

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<v Speaker 1>put the chip in your radio, and you're good. M

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<v Speaker 1>seventeen and CODEC too. There's a lot more to it

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<v Speaker 1>than that. I'm giving a very high level overview here.

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<v Speaker 1>M seventeen was the first one to not use a

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<v Speaker 1>DVS SID chip, not use an AMB chip, They're using

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<v Speaker 1>their own CODEC two, which is an open source digital

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<v Speaker 1>voice codec. And it's been an open source project up

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<v Speaker 1>until now. Let's keep reading. Inclusion of M seventeen among

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<v Speaker 1>the supported modes of MMDVN project has been a major

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<v Speaker 1>benefit to the current rate of adoption of M seventeen.

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<v Speaker 1>The first commercial radio supporting M seventeen shipped on the

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<v Speaker 1>second half of twenty twenty four, that is the CS

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<v Speaker 1>seven thy M seventeen, which I did a live stream

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<v Speaker 1>about the CS seven M seventeen, which is actually sitting

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<v Speaker 1>right here, So that was the first commercial radio being

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<v Speaker 1>sold with M seventeen adopted. The M seventeen project is

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<v Speaker 1>an open source digital voice protocol that is positioned as

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<v Speaker 1>an alternative digital modes that require the use of proprietary

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<v Speaker 1>encoders such as the dvsside chip and be an imbe

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<v Speaker 1>Codex is also an open source project that enables amateur

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<v Speaker 1>radio hotspots to support multiple digital voice protoclous incouding, d STAR,

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<v Speaker 1>DMRYSUP twenty five, NXDN and pok sag Okay, So if

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<v Speaker 1>we click on this announced link right here, it brings

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<v Speaker 1>us to a groups dot io list, and this is

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<v Speaker 1>a public message. I don't know if I'm even a

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<v Speaker 1>member of this list, but it is in the open

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<v Speaker 1>DV list. And this is Jonathan Naylor. I met Jonathan

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<v Speaker 1>at the I think hamvention two or three years ago.

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<v Speaker 1>It might have been ham kashon one of them. I

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<v Speaker 1>met him for the first time at ham Kash and

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<v Speaker 1>then later that year, maybe the next year, at hamvention,

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<v Speaker 1>did an interview with him. Nice guy, very very knowledgeable

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<v Speaker 1>in the world of MMDVM, since it is kind of

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<v Speaker 1>his project. So this is what he has to say.

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<v Speaker 1>This is an open forum, This is not a private

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<v Speaker 1>letter or anything like that, and so I'm reading public

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<v Speaker 1>information here. It is with great regret and a certain

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<v Speaker 1>amount of relief that I have removed M seventeen from MMDVM.

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<v Speaker 1>I have two sets of issues with M seventeen, administrative

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<v Speaker 1>and technical. Firstly, the administrative side of M seventeen is

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<v Speaker 1>very worrying, and even more so in recent months. A

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<v Speaker 1>couple of years ago, M seventeen received four hundred and

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<v Speaker 1>seventy eight thoy nine hundred dollars in grants from ARDC. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>I had Steven and ed who are Americans? Because a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of the M seventeen stuff is being done out

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<v Speaker 1>of Sweden. I had steven Ed, who were their American counterparts,

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<v Speaker 1>on the live stream, two or three times to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about M seventeen, and I'm I don't believe steven Ed

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<v Speaker 1>or with that project anymore. Don't know why, not going

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<v Speaker 1>to speculate, Not sure what happened there. But during that

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<v Speaker 1>time was when ARDC had given them grant money to

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<v Speaker 1>fund this nonprofit open source project. Received four hundred and

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<v Speaker 1>seventy eight thousand, ne hundred dollars in grants from IRDC

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<v Speaker 1>developing seventeen. I feel very much that ARDC should take

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<v Speaker 1>a closer look at how the money was spent. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>these are his words, not mine. The new M seventeen

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<v Speaker 1>Foundation isn't much better. A number of the M seventeen

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<v Speaker 1>star warts were excluded from it when it was formed.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know what he's talking about here, I'm just

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<v Speaker 1>reading this text rather more sadly. The M seventeen Foundation

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<v Speaker 1>make no mention of a number of people organizations that

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<v Speaker 1>it helped them to get to where they were now.

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<v Speaker 1>Sounds like he wasn't acknowledged it and he's upset about it.

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<v Speaker 1>But I don't know. I don't know the backstory. Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>This is particularly troubling as it is rewriting of history

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<v Speaker 1>and not appointing praise where it is due. A lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people put a lot of time and effort in

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<v Speaker 1>M seventeen and to not get their due is dishonest

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<v Speaker 1>of the M seventeen teen. Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna

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<v Speaker 1>take Jonathan as word here and say that this is

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<v Speaker 1>all correct, and I agree with him if it is. Again,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't have any inside knowledge here, I'm just reading

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<v Speaker 1>it open for him. An example of this is the

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<v Speaker 1>fact that only one commercial entity has put their money

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<v Speaker 1>where their mouth is, and that is Jerry of Connect Systems. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>we talked about him a minute ago. However, his contribution

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<v Speaker 1>to the project has been belittled online by the M

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<v Speaker 1>seventeen As his mind, despite it being the only way

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<v Speaker 1>to get a commercial M seventeen radio, he should be praise,

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<v Speaker 1>not dismissed out of hand. Okay, I don't know what

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<v Speaker 1>he's talking about there either. If somebody has a link

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<v Speaker 1>to these forums and articles that he's talking about where

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<v Speaker 1>this has happened, please send it to me. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>I haven't seen that myself. I don't browse forums much

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<v Speaker 1>these days, except for if it's on Reddit looking for

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<v Speaker 1>stuff to talk about new videos. But here we go.

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<v Speaker 1>I've heard rumors at M seventeen foundations looking at charging

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<v Speaker 1>commercial entities a royalty to include M seventeen in their

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<v Speaker 1>equipment and to use their logo. This is not in

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<v Speaker 1>the spirit of open source and has not been the

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<v Speaker 1>route followed by MMDBM. Now. I heard that rumor about

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<v Speaker 1>two months ago, maybe three months ago, something like that.

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<v Speaker 1>I heard that rumor, and I'm like, Okay, you hear

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of stuff. I mean, I get emails from

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<v Speaker 1>people about all kinds of stuff. People are excited about

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<v Speaker 1>new stuff, people are pissed off about something that happened,

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<v Speaker 1>or people are dismayed or frustrated or whatever. I get

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<v Speaker 1>all kinds of emails about all kinds of things. Generally speaking,

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<v Speaker 1>most of it is noise. Some of it is very

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<v Speaker 1>good information, and you'll usually end up seeing me make

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<v Speaker 1>videos on that. So I actually heard this rumor a

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<v Speaker 1>few months ago. I didn't really put much thought into it,

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<v Speaker 1>or much effort into I didn't put much faith in

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<v Speaker 1>it because I'm like, well, okay, if they are charging.

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<v Speaker 1>My understanding is ARDC only gives money to nonprofits, which

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<v Speaker 1>M seventeen was. M seventeen Foundation was a nonprofit as

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<v Speaker 1>far as I know, they still are. Maybe that's change.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know, But if you are a for profit business,

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<v Speaker 1>ARDC will not grant you money. I know this firsthand

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<v Speaker 1>because I asked them for a grant because I do

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of teaching on my channel and they're like, well,

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<v Speaker 1>you make a profit, so we can't grant you money.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm like, okay, that's fair. I didn't hold any begrudges

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<v Speaker 1>against them because of that. Okay, this is their business model,

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<v Speaker 1>this is how they do things. They were actually quite

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<v Speaker 1>polite to me, and they said, hey, we really like

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<v Speaker 1>what you're doing, but we can't give you any money

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<v Speaker 1>because you're a for profit business. I'm like, yes, I am, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>that's true. I'm not a nonprofit. I never claim to

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<v Speaker 1>be a nonprofit, so I get it. So in that regard,

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<v Speaker 1>if M seventeen is going to start charging for their

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<v Speaker 1>low to feature their logo almost like a brand ad,

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<v Speaker 1>almost like a royalty, to put their open source codec

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<v Speaker 1>on commercial radio and sell it, that's not nonprofit anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna link this article below and I'm gonna read

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<v Speaker 1>more of it to you. But the first thing I'll say,

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<v Speaker 1>if you want to get involved in this hap hap

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<v Speaker 1>happy realm of amateur radio, or you want to get

164
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<v Speaker 1>an upgraded license, check out Ham Radio Prep. You can

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<v Speaker 1>save a twenty percent discount. Here's an example of me

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<v Speaker 1>being a for profit business. You can save a twenty

167
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<v Speaker 1>percent discount off of all of Ham Radio Preps courses

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<v Speaker 1>with the coupon code of Jason twenty. Ham Radio Prep

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<v Speaker 1>has helped get hundreds, tens of thousands really people with

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<v Speaker 1>their new Ham Radio license or a Ham Radio License

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<v Speaker 1>upgrade over the last several years. They are a valuable

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<v Speaker 1>source in the community. But they are for profit business also,

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<v Speaker 1>so they're not going to get an ARDC grant. And

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<v Speaker 1>that's okay, that's okay. That's why you buy their product

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<v Speaker 1>and learn your stuff and get your upgrade and go

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<v Speaker 1>on save a discount at Ham Radio Prep with the

177
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<v Speaker 1>coupon code of Jason Twins. This goes on to say

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<v Speaker 1>he said he had two points. So the first one

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<v Speaker 1>was that the second one second secondly technical, when when

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<v Speaker 1>started in seventeen was proudly created by people who said

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<v Speaker 1>that they brought fresh thinking to digital voice. I would

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<v Speaker 1>say that it characterized more by a combination of arrogance

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<v Speaker 1>and stupidity. Again, not my words. I'm reading Jonathan's words here,

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<v Speaker 1>and this is on an open form, not to a

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<v Speaker 1>private letter he sent to me, because I know I'm

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<v Speaker 1>gonna get comments saying dude, you read that out loud. No, no, no,

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<v Speaker 1>he wrote it out loud, and I'm just rereading it. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>here we go. Maybe all contact him and say, do

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<v Speaker 1>you want to do an interview about this? The fact

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<v Speaker 1>that none of them have ever operated digital voice radio,

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<v Speaker 1>let alone study the DV mode was seen as positive. Really,

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't know that none of them ever operated a

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<v Speaker 1>digital voice radio. Come on. One of the key members

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<v Speaker 1>designed it like a packet radio system, where each block

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<v Speaker 1>or packet of information needed to be received perfectly, so

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<v Speaker 1>no forward error correction? Is that what that means? This

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<v Speaker 1>is not a useful attribute to have. I would agree.

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<v Speaker 1>As originally designed, the synchronization patterns were literally one bit

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<v Speaker 1>different from one another, which is useless in an environment

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<v Speaker 1>where signals are routinely corrupted to a greater or lesser extent.

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<v Speaker 1>Over the first six months of my involvement, I managed

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<v Speaker 1>to get them to change the synchronization vectors to something

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<v Speaker 1>more reasonable, and got them to add a can a

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<v Speaker 1>channel access number to allow for some sort of channel

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<v Speaker 1>sharing between the M seventeen systems. I also added things

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<v Speaker 1>we take for granted another DV modes, like embedded GPS

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<v Speaker 1>datas short text messages. These both run in parallel to

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<v Speaker 1>the audio, like DSTAR or other DV modes. There were

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<v Speaker 1>still five big issues. A networking protocol designed before the

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<v Speaker 1>RF protocol is established included ideas that didn't make sense

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<v Speaker 1>in later development, very weekend of a message indicator, inclusion

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<v Speaker 1>of optional strong encryption. This is against regulations in most countries.

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<v Speaker 1>Shouldn't even be thought about. That's true if you're going

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<v Speaker 1>to design a digital voice mode for amateur radio like

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<v Speaker 1>system Fusion and d STAR war, DMR was not. That's

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<v Speaker 1>why DMR includes encryption, because DMR and P twenty five

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<v Speaker 1>both are commercial protocols that we adopted as amateur radio operators. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes I'll get people, well, since it wasn't made, since

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<v Speaker 1>it wasn't made for amateur radio, I'm not going to

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<v Speaker 1>use DMR well. Guess what. I don't know if you've

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<v Speaker 1>ever heard of a little mode called continuous waves CW

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<v Speaker 1>or a protocol called Morse code. But let me let

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<v Speaker 1>you in on a little secret. None of that was

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<v Speaker 1>made for amateur radio. AM and FM voice transmissions were

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<v Speaker 1>not made for amateur radio. RIDDY was not originally made

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<v Speaker 1>for amateur radio. FT eight was. So if you want

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<v Speaker 1>to drop DMR and non and commercial modes that were

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<v Speaker 1>adopted by amateur radio simply because they weren't made for

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<v Speaker 1>amateur radio, I hope that you only operate PSK thirty one,

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<v Speaker 1>JT sixty five, FT eight and these times of protocols

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<v Speaker 1>on HF because everything else that's on there pretty much

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<v Speaker 1>was not made for amateur radio. That's a stupid argument.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry if I offended someone by saying that. I apologize.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a stupid argument to say that DMR and P

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<v Speaker 1>twenty five or shouldn't be an amateur radio because they

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<v Speaker 1>weren't made for amateur radio. Okay, But leaving that I

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<v Speaker 1>got it, that's a bit of a tangent. I got

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<v Speaker 1>on a bit of a tangent there, Okay. But Jonathan

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<v Speaker 1>is correct. He says that inclusion of optional strong encryption.

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<v Speaker 1>This is against regulations in most countries, shouldn't even be

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<v Speaker 1>thought about. Oddly enough, encryptid M seventeen wouldn't pass through

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<v Speaker 1>an MMDVM based repeater. So the reason that DMR and

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<v Speaker 1>P twenty five including encryption because they're commercial, but we're

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<v Speaker 1>not really supposed to be using them in amateur radio

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<v Speaker 1>on amateur radio frequencies. Now, I know some people aren't

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<v Speaker 1>going to I suspect some people are coming along in

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<v Speaker 1>the come as well' we use encryption all the time.

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<v Speaker 1>Nobody ever shows anything. Well, good for you, good for you,

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<v Speaker 1>congratulations on not being able to read your license protocols,

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<v Speaker 1>but good for you. Okay. Nevertheless, encryption at this point

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<v Speaker 1>in time is not really supposed to be used by

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<v Speaker 1>amateur radio operators on amateur radio frequencies. You want to

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<v Speaker 1>use encryption, get a commercial radio, get a commercial frequency,

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<v Speaker 1>you can use that on. So he's correct inclusion of

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<v Speaker 1>optional strong encryption. Why would you even put that in

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<v Speaker 1>M seventeen if you're actually making it for amateur radio

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<v Speaker 1>users and the amateur radio community as a whole. The

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<v Speaker 1>wrong type of FCC applied badly. That FEC FOURD error

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<v Speaker 1>correction is what that is? So few other things in

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<v Speaker 1>here in this article, and he says he signs off

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<v Speaker 1>with does anyone want to buy a CS seven seventeen.

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<v Speaker 1>I've got one. That one is sitting right here. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not gonna. I don't want to. It's behind a bunch

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<v Speaker 1>of radios. I'm gonna knock everything off my desk if

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<v Speaker 1>I try to pull it out. But hey, what do

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<v Speaker 1>you guys think about this? Are you disappointed? I am disappointed.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's take the article, this article at face value. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>let's assume for the moment, for the sake of this statement,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm about to make that everything said in this article

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<v Speaker 1>is true. It's disappointing that a group who started out

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<v Speaker 1>as open source and supportive of mateur radio and using

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<v Speaker 1>a codec like CODEC two, which is open source and

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<v Speaker 1>got an ARDC grant as an open source nonprofit entity,

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<v Speaker 1>is now shifting gears and trying to charge you for

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<v Speaker 1>and do encryption with this protocol, this M seventeen protocol.

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<v Speaker 1>If there's much I'm sure there's more to the story.

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<v Speaker 1>I have no doubt there's more to the story. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>but if this is true, again, let's just take this

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<v Speaker 1>phase value for the sake of this argument, then yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>this is disappointing and I'm probably not going to be

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<v Speaker 1>interested in using M seventeen anymore myself, not that I

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<v Speaker 1>use it a lot anyway. I was looking forward to it.

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<v Speaker 1>I was looking forward to getting it in more commercial

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<v Speaker 1>radios and using it that way. I was happy about

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<v Speaker 1>the fact that WPSD, which is upgraded version of pie Star,

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<v Speaker 1>included it. You get a new hotspot from Bridgecom, or

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<v Speaker 1>you get a new hotspot any hotspot that runs WPSD

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<v Speaker 1>M seventeen is now, or it was included voice protocol,

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<v Speaker 1>so it was easy to talk on M seventeen and

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<v Speaker 1>get into the get into the system if you had

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<v Speaker 1>a radio for it. I'm, you know, hats off to

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<v Speaker 1>Jerriett Connect Systems for actually creating a commercial radio. And

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know, I don't know where that's going to go.

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<v Speaker 1>So we'll see. What do you guys think about this?

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<v Speaker 1>Whose side are you on? Do you think you're you

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<v Speaker 1>agree with them seventeen or do you agree with with Jonathan?

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<v Speaker 1>Because I know a couple of people are saying that

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<v Speaker 1>this is this is immature of Jonathan to act this way,

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<v Speaker 1>This is childish. We need to put this back in.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm like, well, maybe maybe you're right, Maybe you're right,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe right, but here's something I'm want to close with this,

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<v Speaker 1>and no one is going to like what I well,

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of people, a lot of people are not

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<v Speaker 1>going to like what I have to say. This is

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<v Speaker 1>what you get with an open source project. Now that

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<v Speaker 1>obvious that MMDVM is an open source project, and it's

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<v Speaker 1>still going very strong, so obviously open source projects can work.

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<v Speaker 1>But I have seen many times many project fall flat

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<v Speaker 1>on their face two or three or five or six

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<v Speaker 1>years into the project. Open source, it's all open source,

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<v Speaker 1>it's all open So it's open source, great, wonderful, right

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<v Speaker 1>up until the point where the developers and the supporters

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<v Speaker 1>and the guys in charge of it get kind of

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<v Speaker 1>sick and tired of everyone complaining about it and just

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<v Speaker 1>basically drop the project and say, Nope, we're not going

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<v Speaker 1>to do this anymore. We're tired of working on it

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<v Speaker 1>twenty to twenty five hours a week and not being

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<v Speaker 1>paid for it. I got other things to do with

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<v Speaker 1>my time, like spend time with family or do my

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<v Speaker 1>real job, which actually puts food on the table for

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<v Speaker 1>my family, so and who can blame them? I don't

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<v Speaker 1>blame them at all. I like the idea of open source,

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<v Speaker 1>but I think the developers and the administrators and the

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<v Speaker 1>project leaders and the the beta testers and these people

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<v Speaker 1>who put all of this time into it, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think they get proper recognition. I don't think they get

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<v Speaker 1>proper recognition. And a lot of times, and I've seen

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<v Speaker 1>it before. I could. I could name three open sources

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<v Speaker 1>projects right now that I've seen fall flat on their

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<v Speaker 1>face in the last ten years. I'm not gonna do

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<v Speaker 1>that because I'm not trying to I'm not trying to

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<v Speaker 1>throw anyone under the bus. I'm not trying to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about that. But maybe I'll just maybe I can make

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<v Speaker 1>a different video. Maybe I can make a new video

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<v Speaker 1>and say, hey, up, here's what I think you should

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<v Speaker 1>do with open source. Let's discuss it. I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>they're wanting to charge for this protocol now why it's

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<v Speaker 1>based on an open source codec digital Voice codec. They're

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<v Speaker 1>not implementing it correctly according to Jonathan anyway, So I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know. So it's is it gonna be? Is it

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<v Speaker 1>now gonna be a for profit project that they charge

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<v Speaker 1>for and try to build their own radios for, and

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<v Speaker 1>they're gonna become another another Yazoo or another Kinwood, which

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<v Speaker 1>is okay. That's okay. You want to build a radio

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<v Speaker 1>and charge for it, there's nothing wrong with that, But

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<v Speaker 1>don't claim you're gonna be open source if you're gonna

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<v Speaker 1>do that. Also, that's my opinion. A lot more to

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<v Speaker 1>it than that. I could talk for a little bit longer,

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<v Speaker 1>but there's a there's a mud Dauber in my hamshack.

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<v Speaker 1>So I'm gonna sign off. Guys seventy three, i'd really

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<v Speaker 1>want to know what your comments are. Put a comment

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<v Speaker 1>in the VID your blow. Catch you next time.