1
00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:02,799
Speaker 1: Meaning a light.

2
00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,480
Speaker 2: Man like this, man letting butterfly flapping and wing. They've

3
00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:08,839
down in a forest. Man, it gonna cause the tree fall,

4
00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:17,679
letting five thousand miles away. Man, nobody seen it. Nobody see.

5
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:22,000
Speaker 3: You don't need no man black. You follow let and

6
00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:23,640
you got bacted like that.

7
00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:24,280
Speaker 1: That's the point.

8
00:00:24,399 --> 00:00:26,239
Speaker 2: Man, don't black and name on the panel.

9
00:00:26,359 --> 00:00:27,839
Speaker 3: Man, Now you don't matter.

10
00:00:27,879 --> 00:00:38,159
Speaker 1: Man all right, George Bagbee, welcome to Jay Burdenshow how

11
00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:38,520
you doing.

12
00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:41,039
Speaker 3: I'm doing great. It's good to be with you.

13
00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm very excited to have you. Uh. This is

14
00:00:46,399 --> 00:00:50,119
another episode in my unofficial series of If I talk

15
00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:52,719
about the Iran War every day, I will go crazy

16
00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,359
and so deliberately deciding to talk about something that is

17
00:00:56,479 --> 00:00:59,600
not relevant, at least explicitly to what's happening in the headlines.

18
00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:05,280
And so Bagbee, we're here to discuss the twenty sixteen

19
00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:12,040
film Hail Caesar, and it's a good absurdist way to

20
00:01:12,079 --> 00:01:18,599
get away from the current thing. The Cohen Brothers are

21
00:01:19,359 --> 00:01:26,599
my favorite comic writers of the day. Their comedies are

22
00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,680
some of my oldest favorites.

23
00:01:31,239 --> 00:01:35,040
Speaker 3: My wife and I, as a kind of guilty pleasure,

24
00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:40,159
we get no end of enjoyment out of The Big Lebowski,

25
00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,560
which is one of our favorite films, and it's it's

26
00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:48,680
just a classic. It's not for everyone, especially those who

27
00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,159
are adverse to the language. It's it's very colorful, and

28
00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:59,719
it's language notoriously, but it's such an absurd comic masterpiece.

29
00:02:01,359 --> 00:02:04,120
And that's something that I really love about the Cohen's.

30
00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:13,039
There's such a dynamic, a dynamic force in movie making.

31
00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:19,719
They go from masterpieces, just stupendous achievements like No Country

32
00:02:19,719 --> 00:02:26,719
for Old Men, and they've also made these really slapstick

33
00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:33,039
sorts of comic movies, like Raising Arizona with Nicholas Cage

34
00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:40,599
doing one of his Madman routines. They've also made these

35
00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:47,360
really distinctive regional films, which is something that I particularly

36
00:02:47,439 --> 00:02:52,000
love about them. They've made They made Miller's Crossing, which

37
00:02:52,039 --> 00:02:55,479
was one of their earlier movies, one of my favorites.

38
00:02:56,759 --> 00:02:59,159
It's a really good one. Did you know that one

39
00:02:59,199 --> 00:03:03,520
was shot almost entirely in Louisiana, specifically New Orleans?

40
00:03:04,039 --> 00:03:06,560
Speaker 1: Huh? But I didn't, But that actually makes quite a

41
00:03:06,599 --> 00:03:07,120
lot of sense.

42
00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,319
Speaker 3: You you wouldn't know it by watching the film. I

43
00:03:11,319 --> 00:03:15,240
don't think they ever referenced Louisiana and the film, but

44
00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:19,479
it was all shot in Louisiana. I found out that

45
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:26,159
that one of the scenes, the distinctive forest scene in

46
00:03:27,439 --> 00:03:32,400
Miller's Crossing where he takes John to Truro. Uh, you know,

47
00:03:32,479 --> 00:03:35,280
Gabriel Byrne takes John to Truro out into the forest

48
00:03:37,039 --> 00:03:41,199
and and John Taturo's pitifully begging for his life. He

49
00:03:41,639 --> 00:03:44,639
knows what what everyone expects to happen. He's supposed to

50
00:03:44,719 --> 00:03:49,520
kill him. That was that was shot in a place

51
00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,919
that I know, and it's all very familiar to me,

52
00:03:53,199 --> 00:03:57,000
but outside of the city obviously it's a forest, but

53
00:03:57,319 --> 00:03:58,919
in Louisiana.

54
00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,639
Speaker 1: Well, and that it's actually funny because I did not

55
00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:07,080
know that. Several things about that film. One, it is

56
00:04:07,159 --> 00:04:10,800
one of the funniest non comedy films, Like there's not

57
00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,960
a lot of jokes in it per se, but it's

58
00:04:14,039 --> 00:04:17,759
genuinely hilarious. Like there's one moment I always think where,

59
00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,480
you know, Gabriel Burns is tied to a chair, you know,

60
00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:23,560
and you're sort of expecting him to get you know this,

61
00:04:23,759 --> 00:04:28,040
you know, beaten, you know, with the swinging light, and

62
00:04:28,199 --> 00:04:32,000
he just gets up, grabs the chair, and breaks it

63
00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,959
over one of the guys interrogating him, and the reaction

64
00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,040
the man just looks so genuinely offended he's been hit

65
00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,800
with the chair. Very very funny. But additionally, it's funny

66
00:04:43,879 --> 00:04:46,759
you mentioned that because I just assumed, because of the

67
00:04:46,759 --> 00:04:48,959
subject matter that it was set in Chicago. You know,

68
00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,199
it seems like a Chicago esque film, and I was

69
00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,040
thinking about that when they're walking through the woods, I

70
00:04:54,079 --> 00:04:57,680
was like, this doesn't look anything like Illinois, right, this

71
00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,000
looks like the middle of nowhere in the Deep South.

72
00:05:00,439 --> 00:05:02,199
And so that actually makes a good bit of sense.

73
00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, they actually talked about that, and they said New

74
00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:13,959
Orleans is this unchanged like nineteenth century relic and they

75
00:05:13,959 --> 00:05:17,720
didn't have to dress up the streets where they were shooting.

76
00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,319
They actually interviewed about that and said, yeah, we didn't

77
00:05:23,399 --> 00:05:26,480
have to replace the windows or the shutters or anything

78
00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:32,800
because they're all original. No one has renovated these old buildings,

79
00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:34,600
and so it looks just like it did at the

80
00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,279
turn of the century, which is one of the reasons

81
00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:43,360
why I adore New Orleans. It's this untouched old city.

82
00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:48,879
In a way, it's simultaneously New Orleans best selling point

83
00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,600
and its downfall that they haven't invested in their own

84
00:05:52,639 --> 00:05:56,959
city in such obvious ways, but it's also the charm

85
00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,360
of the place. But they've made, as I said, all

86
00:06:00,399 --> 00:06:03,800
these really interesting regional films, and I think this is

87
00:06:03,879 --> 00:06:07,959
the best testimony in spite of the Cohen's being very

88
00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:13,839
famously amish, uh, the the regional work that they've done

89
00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:18,800
with with Fargo, with Oh Brother, where Art Thou? It

90
00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,720
comes from a place of love and affection. Even the

91
00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:26,879
Big Lebowski as as like a set piece for Southern California,

92
00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:34,279
Southern California hippie characters, deadbeats, stuff like that. It comes

93
00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,839
from a place of real affection. And the easiest way

94
00:06:37,879 --> 00:06:39,920
to tell that is do you come out of Oh

95
00:06:39,959 --> 00:06:43,600
Brother or Art Thou hating Mississippi or do you come

96
00:06:43,639 --> 00:06:46,480
out of Oh Brother or Art Thou thinking, Wow, I

97
00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,680
really like Mississippi. Like there's there are a lot of

98
00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:56,360
winsome points and beauty and and curiosity about these these funny,

99
00:06:56,439 --> 00:07:02,199
you know, country white people. And I think that that's

100
00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:07,160
the best tell about the Cohens, that they love their

101
00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:13,160
subject matter. And they've also they also produced a personal

102
00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,920
favorite of mine, which is a serious man. Have you

103
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:18,920
seen that one.

104
00:07:19,079 --> 00:07:20,319
Speaker 1: No, I haven't, but I need to.

105
00:07:21,439 --> 00:07:24,720
Speaker 3: Oh, that is a really good one. It's it's set

106
00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:31,279
in some Jewish community in Minnesota or something, I guess

107
00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,040
Bob Dylan's diaspora, way up there in the distant North.

108
00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:42,600
And it introduced to me the term goy, which is

109
00:07:43,079 --> 00:07:48,000
used very frequently in that film. That film is a

110
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:51,399
a black comedy, and it's kind of a retelling of

111
00:07:51,439 --> 00:07:55,000
the story of Job, a man who faces like every

112
00:07:55,120 --> 00:08:00,160
possible personal disaster and is meditating on the mystery of

113
00:08:00,199 --> 00:08:05,319
his situation. And it's it's extremely good just in its

114
00:08:05,319 --> 00:08:10,839
own right. But I really like that one. So about

115
00:08:10,839 --> 00:08:16,720
the Cohen's they they have a great affection for Americana,

116
00:08:17,519 --> 00:08:24,439
for American regions, for the gentile majority of the United States.

117
00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:30,560
They really seem to like these people, and that's really

118
00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:36,320
my brief for them. The fact that they are famously

119
00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:41,919
Amish is an interesting factor in the film that we

120
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,399
have for discussion today. It's the twenty sixteen film Hail Caesar,

121
00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:57,559
and the image of Christ haunts this film in a

122
00:08:57,639 --> 00:09:04,000
really surprising way, especially because it comes from non Christian writers.

123
00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:10,879
The very first image that you see when the title

124
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:16,440
fades is a crucifix in a Catholic church and the

125
00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:21,440
very first scene is the protagonist, who is a Hollywood fixer,

126
00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,879
a real historical character by the way, who worked for

127
00:09:26,159 --> 00:09:31,840
Big Studios in la Eddie Mannix, who's kind of fictionalized

128
00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,240
for this. He's kind of a legend in Hollywood, as

129
00:09:34,279 --> 00:09:38,759
I understand it, portrayed by Josh Brolin, and he is.

130
00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,279
He does a wonderful job in this role, you know,

131
00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:48,159
the stoic and strong Josh Brolin. He's sitting in a

132
00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:53,799
confessional and he's a very scrupulous Catholic. He's going to

133
00:09:54,039 --> 00:10:01,399
confession with spans of hours between his confessions. He's, uh,

134
00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:06,720
he's obviously a man that takes his religious ritual very seriously.

135
00:10:07,279 --> 00:10:07,399
Speaker 1: Uh.

136
00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:11,639
Speaker 3: The priest in the confessional is is telling him, oh,

137
00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,480
my son, you're you're doing this too much. You're not

138
00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,600
this bad, you know. And he goes to the confessional

139
00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,240
to say, you know, I lied to my wife. I

140
00:10:22,279 --> 00:10:26,799
snuck a cigarette. I told her I was quitting, and

141
00:10:26,799 --> 00:10:29,600
and he he breaks down and he says, I'm trying.

142
00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:32,960
I'm trying, and then he leaves the confessional. And he's

143
00:10:33,039 --> 00:10:39,840
this completely stoical, driven, tough guy of the the force

144
00:10:39,879 --> 00:10:44,120
of order and justice in the film.

145
00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:46,799
Speaker 1: Well, and I think that that opening is is really

146
00:10:46,879 --> 00:10:50,039
dramatic on it to sort of set up that that

147
00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,159
sort of diet. Because he leaves, it's this sort of

148
00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:57,759
you know, gloomy, rainy night and he walks into this

149
00:10:58,039 --> 00:11:02,320
you know, l a Bungalow kicks the door open, and

150
00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,600
you know, one of the the the studio's starlets is

151
00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:08,720
taking is it kind of a racy photo shoot with this?

152
00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,320
Is it Steep Buchmy the photographer or some other kind

153
00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:16,919
of like similarly scummy looking actor. And he walks up,

154
00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,919
you know, pulls out the negatives, tells the guys to leave,

155
00:11:20,919 --> 00:11:23,919
smacks her in a moment that's very kind of like

156
00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,600
silver age Hollywood. Right, you know, you can almost imagine

157
00:11:26,639 --> 00:11:28,960
Jimmy Stewart, right, you know, holding her close and kind

158
00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,440
of slapping her across the face. And then when the

159
00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,519
police come in, he's given her a fake story. He

160
00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,639
hands a bribe to the policeman and they leave, right,

161
00:11:37,759 --> 00:11:40,720
you know, kind of contrasting that, you know, how he

162
00:11:40,799 --> 00:11:43,840
is at work. It is this kind of laying down

163
00:11:43,879 --> 00:11:47,720
the law and then you know this very tender family

164
00:11:47,759 --> 00:11:49,279
man right in the confessional booth.

165
00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:55,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's this great contrast, and and this is a

166
00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,399
contrast that we see through the rest of the picture

167
00:12:01,399 --> 00:12:07,559
and the the big questions in the film are about

168
00:12:08,919 --> 00:12:16,639
dream and reality, about fantasy and truth, about what is

169
00:12:16,759 --> 00:12:21,960
real and what we believe in, what we believe is real,

170
00:12:23,039 --> 00:12:27,480
and this is the This is one of the major

171
00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:32,600
elements that we encounter through the entire film, and we're

172
00:12:32,919 --> 00:12:37,639
drawn back to that distinction repeatedly in the dialogue. It's

173
00:12:37,759 --> 00:12:41,960
it's a really fast paced film. There there are lots

174
00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,759
of different characters and a bunch of different little subplots,

175
00:12:45,799 --> 00:12:51,200
of many of which are just comic gold. But it's

176
00:12:51,279 --> 00:12:56,200
always turning back to that what what do we understand

177
00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:00,240
to be, what is going on? What is real is

178
00:13:00,279 --> 00:13:05,679
what are we projecting about ourselves? What do we believe

179
00:13:06,799 --> 00:13:12,080
about the circumstances. So faith turns out to be one

180
00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:17,200
of the key themes of the film. And as I said,

181
00:13:18,279 --> 00:13:24,399
the character of Jesus Christ literally portrayed in the film

182
00:13:25,039 --> 00:13:28,600
in the context of the movie within the movie. So

183
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:34,000
Eddie Mannix is managing the production of this big tent

184
00:13:34,159 --> 00:13:39,679
pole production for the studio. It's a film called Haile Caesar,

185
00:13:42,159 --> 00:13:45,639
and this is the source of most of the drama

186
00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,320
in this picture, also called Haile Caesar. But like the

187
00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:55,240
movie within the movie, this is obviously a satire of

188
00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:01,679
ben Her and some other nineteen fifties epic biblical films

189
00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,879
like The Robe and Cuovadis and things like that.

190
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,480
Speaker 1: Well, it hails. It's called the other one, right, It's

191
00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,639
like the Is it the Tablets of Noah or tap, sorry,

192
00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,600
the Tablets of Moses? Is that what I'm thinking of? Oh?

193
00:14:16,639 --> 00:14:17,559
Speaker 3: The Ten Commandments?

194
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:19,279
Speaker 1: Maybe? Yes, yes, that's what.

195
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:25,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, Charlton Heston, is that a that must be cecil

196
00:14:25,159 --> 00:14:28,039
d de mill or something, one of one of those

197
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:32,919
great old epics. I've uh, I've got these things on

198
00:14:32,919 --> 00:14:36,919
on the list. I just uh, I just uh played

199
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:41,720
Ben Her for my children recently because I remember watching

200
00:14:41,759 --> 00:14:44,000
it at about their age and it having a major

201
00:14:44,039 --> 00:14:45,799
impact on me. So it's kind of fresh on my

202
00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:52,200
mind right now. But we we see with the production

203
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,799
of this film that the set or the setting for

204
00:14:55,879 --> 00:14:58,600
this movie is the fifties. It's like the Golden age

205
00:14:58,639 --> 00:15:03,039
of Hollywood and some of the things that we see

206
00:15:03,519 --> 00:15:10,399
in the context. It's a Christian country and the Hollywood

207
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:16,600
studios are wanting to present an image of themselves and

208
00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:22,279
of their stars, who are certainly not like traditional moral

209
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:26,600
kinds of people. They want to present an image of

210
00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:31,240
moral norms, they want to present an image of spiritual norms.

211
00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:36,399
And of course there's a cynical reading of this film

212
00:15:36,519 --> 00:15:41,679
that it's it's meant to discredit the society in that

213
00:15:41,759 --> 00:15:48,039
it's portraying right, that it's these dissolute Hollywood people who

214
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:52,679
are projecting a sense of normalcy on the screen when

215
00:15:52,679 --> 00:16:02,200
the reality is moral degradation in Hollywood. Nix Is is

216
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:08,799
constantly encountering that paradox. So he has he has gossip columnists,

217
00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,519
columnists coming up to him, uh constantly, and they're saying, oh,

218
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,600
I know about this scandal. I'm going to publicize it tomorrow,

219
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,559
And he says, no, No, the actor is a good

220
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:25,360
family man. Everyone knows that. And and this is a

221
00:16:25,919 --> 00:16:30,080
and this is a really interesting element here. But I

222
00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:35,120
think that the Cohens really have a general, uh a

223
00:16:35,159 --> 00:16:42,080
genuine affection for the the mainstream that they're presenting here.

224
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,440
I don't think they're they're trying to take them down

225
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,320
a peg. They're they're attacking the corruption in Hollywood. They're

226
00:16:48,399 --> 00:16:55,480
lampooning it. In the film, especially the writers, which we're

227
00:16:55,519 --> 00:17:00,080
going to get to, but we see the Hollywood is

228
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:06,400
in the business of making dreams, of projecting images on

229
00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:12,759
the side of Plato's cave, and Eddie Mannix is dealing

230
00:17:12,799 --> 00:17:18,880
with the real problems at the base of this projection apparatus.

231
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:24,000
So these themes of what is true, what is fantasy?

232
00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:29,680
What do we believe? And the whole time Jesus Christ

233
00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:39,079
is lurking in the background. Jesus Christ very clearly services

234
00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:46,119
in several important discussions in the film as the key

235
00:17:46,279 --> 00:17:52,960
question to all of this is Jesus Christ significant? Is

236
00:17:53,039 --> 00:18:00,880
he real? Does he demand faith of us or not?

237
00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:09,640
Even the question is Jesus Christ God? Is a serious

238
00:18:09,839 --> 00:18:17,160
question that's presented in this satirical context.

239
00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:22,799
Speaker 1: Well, and at that point, yes, if I can just

240
00:18:22,839 --> 00:18:26,359
break in if if it's not the immediate next scene

241
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:28,839
to the one I just described, it's it's very shortly

242
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,640
after that is the which is of course played for laughs,

243
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,200
but it's you know, Mannix's meeting with you know, the

244
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:41,920
Protestant pastor, the Orthodox bishop and then a Catholic priest

245
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:46,599
in a rabbi, and of course they're there to discuss

246
00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:52,920
you know, the presence of Christ in this film. And

247
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,759
there are several things because in a cheaper movie, of course,

248
00:18:56,519 --> 00:18:59,119
I mean it is comedic, right, it is played for laughs.

249
00:18:59,279 --> 00:19:02,079
You know that all four of these religious figures are

250
00:19:02,519 --> 00:19:06,880
offering me. You know that this man effectively uh, you know,

251
00:19:07,039 --> 00:19:10,680
your kind of scraps of you know, Christology, right, and

252
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,519
he's deeply confused. But at the same time we see

253
00:19:14,519 --> 00:19:18,400
that same sort of love for America. That all four

254
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:23,720
of these men they're not caricatures, you know, they're positive characters,

255
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,240
and particularly coming from the Cohen's it's interesting that the

256
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:32,440
uh if anyone comes out of that interaction looking badly, right,

257
00:19:32,519 --> 00:19:36,759
it's the kind of very nebbish uh nebbish rabbi And

258
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,359
you know that's not the focus or the goal of

259
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,519
this film. But again, right, that's that's where from almost

260
00:19:42,519 --> 00:19:46,119
the very beginning you see the presence of Christ in

261
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:47,160
Hail Caesar.

262
00:19:48,559 --> 00:19:54,440
Speaker 3: And that that scene is my personal favorite in the film.

263
00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:59,319
It's also the most daring thing I think Hollywood has

264
00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:04,960
put on this in a very long time. It's a

265
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:10,039
comic scene. Anyone watching that scene is going to find

266
00:20:10,039 --> 00:20:16,079
it hilarious, no matter what they believe. I think, I

267
00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:21,480
think it's naturally hysterical. But will come around to that

268
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,200
here in just a minute. I do have some notes

269
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,400
on it, but but that that scene you mentioned is

270
00:20:27,519 --> 00:20:33,240
absolutely brilliant. So one of the themes I told you

271
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:38,759
faith is the key word in the film. It appears

272
00:20:38,799 --> 00:20:41,039
in the climax of the film at the very end,

273
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:47,000
and it's uh, it's the forgotten line that an actor

274
00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:50,839
is delivering a speech in front of the crucified Christ

275
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:56,799
in the climax of the movie within the movie, and

276
00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:02,079
he forgets the pinnacle of his each and the word

277
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:10,480
he forgets is faith. And this is intentional. Obviously, they're

278
00:21:10,519 --> 00:21:17,000
trying to emphasize the point the one thing that they lack,

279
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:21,079
as the actor almost gets to say when he forgets

280
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:26,000
the last word, if we could only have this one

281
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:31,400
final thing, and that is faith, then we could see

282
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,759
what is true. And so we see it all come

283
00:21:35,799 --> 00:21:40,119
together there at the end. But we see conflicts of

284
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:44,240
faith in the film in a big way, and that's

285
00:21:44,279 --> 00:21:49,680
with the communist subversives in Hollywood, and so they present

286
00:21:49,799 --> 00:21:53,960
a different kind of faith. This is the faith in

287
00:21:54,359 --> 00:22:01,880
ideological materialism and Marxism and their their faith and what

288
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:07,440
it leads them to is also played for laughs. Their

289
00:22:07,559 --> 00:22:15,799
their ham fisted uh sort of attempts to to blackmail

290
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:20,839
Hollywood and UH to fund the Soviet Union, which is

291
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,720
what their their ultimate goal is. It comes to nothing,

292
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,480
uh in the end, and it's all and it's all

293
00:22:27,599 --> 00:22:32,400
very absurd, but that is another element. So we see

294
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:38,160
the Cohen's they're they're framing the the two faiths presented

295
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:43,200
in the film. You have traditional Christianity, you know, faith

296
00:22:43,319 --> 00:22:46,960
in the doctrine of Christ, and then you have an

297
00:22:47,039 --> 00:22:54,200
innovative new ideology, which is Communism, which they they don't

298
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,279
hold back on for their disdain.

299
00:22:58,039 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 1: Uh.

300
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,880
Speaker 3: They they think that these people maybe don't even deserve

301
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:07,480
to be taken seriously. There's such ridiculous characters. They don't

302
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,079
portray the clergy this way at all. The clergy are

303
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,839
are taking these things more seriously. They're very confused, and

304
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,400
the scene with the clergy is absurdist and it's meant

305
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,720
to create laughs, but they're obviously talking about serious things.

306
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:31,839
So we see this bifurcation. You have destructive faith of

307
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:37,880
faith that is finally motivated by vengeance. In the case

308
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:43,319
of the Communists. The communists pretend to portray themselves or

309
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:51,240
they want to portray themselves as these believers in materialist dogma.

310
00:23:52,599 --> 00:23:58,960
They are actually motivated by very low, vengeful pecuniary interests

311
00:24:00,279 --> 00:24:04,599
and this well and from really obviously with them well.

312
00:24:04,599 --> 00:24:06,599
Speaker 1: And I think that that's another part of this that

313
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,759
I found particularly funny is obviously the sort of drama

314
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,680
of this. You know, the inciting incident is that the

315
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,559
main actor in Hail Caesar has been captured and held

316
00:24:18,559 --> 00:24:23,160
for ransom by these communist writers, and some of the

317
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:29,279
best comedy in the film is him talking to these

318
00:24:29,319 --> 00:24:37,400
Marxist writers and sort of they are mutually convincing themselves

319
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,440
that he is a Marxist. But the funny thing is

320
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,759
this character played by Clooney is such an abject narcissist

321
00:24:44,839 --> 00:24:49,559
that he is. He is recreating everything in his own life, right,

322
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,319
so it is all, you know, his sort of like

323
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:58,720
background Hollywood, you know, relationships explained through Marxist theory. You know,

324
00:24:58,799 --> 00:25:00,880
that's the only way he can under standard. You know,

325
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,880
he has no way to conceptualize really outside of like

326
00:25:05,079 --> 00:25:09,559
his incredibly petty foibles. It's very, very funny, and to

327
00:25:09,599 --> 00:25:14,119
that point, there's there's a really hilarious moment where you

328
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,960
know that they've sort of told him that they're kidnapped,

329
00:25:17,079 --> 00:25:19,799
that he has been kidnapped, which happens after this kind

330
00:25:19,839 --> 00:25:23,759
of absurd uh. It kind of like Marxist debate over

331
00:25:23,839 --> 00:25:27,279
finger sandwiches, where you know, they're sitting across the room

332
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,480
and he's he basically says, he's like, well, what happens

333
00:25:32,559 --> 00:25:36,720
if I just tell everyone who you are? And it

334
00:25:36,759 --> 00:25:39,920
becomes very clear that these these Marxists have not even

335
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,279
considered this. This is the most poorly conceived plan. And

336
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,160
so to your point, right, obviously, you know, there is

337
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,079
at least some level of sympathy for these men because

338
00:25:51,079 --> 00:25:55,160
we see that they are from a certain perspective, they're

339
00:25:55,279 --> 00:26:00,200
sort of being ripped off, but they're so so sort

340
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:05,359
of like so sort of incompetent and bumbling and as

341
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:11,000
you said, greedy that they come off really as say,

342
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,000
villains isn't quite the right term, because there is, you know,

343
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,799
a more villainous character who sort of serves as the ringleader.

344
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:22,039
But they are they're painted much much more harshly than

345
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,720
the clergy or you know, the normal Americans. You know,

346
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,240
as we see one of the other kind of rising stars,

347
00:26:29,559 --> 00:26:32,440
you know, the character of of you know, Hobby Doyle,

348
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,319
who is this sort of like you know, small town

349
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,359
actual cowboy who's become you know, a lead in westerns

350
00:26:40,759 --> 00:26:42,960
and in a cheaper movie, you know, he would be

351
00:26:43,319 --> 00:26:47,160
the bumbling rube, the idiot, you know, the redneck. But

352
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,279
he's played very sympathetically, right. He is a character that

353
00:26:51,319 --> 00:26:54,720
you are supposed to feel for and the kind of

354
00:26:55,079 --> 00:27:01,200
you know, sinister homosexual Hollywood mafia is really the villain

355
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,000
of this movie, which, to your point, is a very

356
00:27:04,039 --> 00:27:07,160
brave thing for Hollywood to say in twenty sixteen.

357
00:27:08,559 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and that again, it just goes back to my point.

358
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:21,319
I genuinely believe the Cohens like Toby Doyle. They like

359
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:28,759
the old stock American cowboy character, the very simple guy

360
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,319
who isn't very good talking on screen, and yet he's

361
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,680
a movie star. He's he's one of the more compelling

362
00:27:37,759 --> 00:27:43,359
characters in the film. So about the about the communist

363
00:27:43,759 --> 00:27:47,680
meeting with George Clooney's character. George Clooney is the lead

364
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,880
in this swordin Sandals epic Hail Caesar.

365
00:27:54,079 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 1: Again.

366
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 3: The the film within the film is subtitled A Tale

367
00:28:00,079 --> 00:28:03,839
of the Christ, which is kind of an illusion to

368
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,680
Ben her That was the subtitle for ben Her as well,

369
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,759
and there are lots of different in jokes that are

370
00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:18,039
related to ben Her, such as the tactic of never

371
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:24,400
showing the face of the actor portraying Jesus Christ or

372
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:25,400
in Georgia.

373
00:28:25,559 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 1: Kind of well. And the one quote we get from

374
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,839
you know, the the Orthodox Clergy, it's when he says,

375
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,960
I liked it, but I thought jumping from one chariot

376
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,319
to the other seemed a bit fake, which you know,

377
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,440
of course, is both a reference and kind of a

378
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,720
comedic moment. But sorry, I've interrupted you for probably a

379
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:46,720
tenth time, George.

380
00:28:47,839 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 3: Yes, Indeed, the the meeting with the clergy, I'm gonna

381
00:28:54,039 --> 00:28:58,480
I'm gonna compare these two meetings, the meeting with Mannix

382
00:28:58,599 --> 00:29:02,799
in the Christian Clergy and the meeting with Clooney's character

383
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,640
which his name is Whitlock with the Communists. There are

384
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:13,240
certain parallels between these two meetings. When Mannix meets with

385
00:29:13,319 --> 00:29:18,880
the clergy, it's very interesting that the Protestant pastor and

386
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:25,640
the Catholic priest are both going towards the theology. They're

387
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,039
trying to argue about the details of the theology, and

388
00:29:29,079 --> 00:29:31,559
the rabbi gets involved with that and he says well,

389
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,000
this is all nonsense. The Trinity is nonsense. Christ was

390
00:29:36,039 --> 00:29:41,680
not God. He says that, which is a really incredible

391
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:47,720
thing to portray on screen just by itself, was a

392
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,720
very courageous thing to do. To put that on screen.

393
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,160
And of course it's played for laps, which kind of

394
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,240
diffuses the tension, which I think is necessary in order

395
00:29:57,279 --> 00:30:00,839
to present such a thing, but it's also so very valuable.

396
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:08,400
The Orthodox bishop who is in this scene is obviously

397
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:13,920
my favorite. That's my representation here. The Orthodox bishop, I think,

398
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,960
is the one that takes it as seriously as it

399
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:27,240
needs to be taken. He is not arguing theological points

400
00:30:27,279 --> 00:30:32,240
it Curiously, Eddie Mannix, after interacting with the Catholic priest,

401
00:30:33,079 --> 00:30:35,720
the Catholic priest is trying to talk about the dual

402
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:40,359
nature of Christ, that he's both completely God and completely Man,

403
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:45,160
and this is Christian dogma. There's nothing controversial about saying this.

404
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:51,599
Mannix is confused. Now he's observing Catholic but he's also

405
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,480
not very deep in the theology. So he says, so

406
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:59,359
God is split, and the Catholic priest says, well, yes

407
00:30:59,839 --> 00:31:05,759
and no, which is also the Christian answer, that he's

408
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,839
one being with two complete natures at the same time,

409
00:31:11,519 --> 00:31:14,079
which is kind of paradoxical, but that's the that's the

410
00:31:14,079 --> 00:31:21,480
doctrine of the trinity. The Orthodox bishop he references the Bible.

411
00:31:21,559 --> 00:31:24,799
He says, well, we have the Bible, you know, and

412
00:31:24,799 --> 00:31:27,599
and Mannix says, well, yeah, but we we have pictures too,

413
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,319
and that's what we're doing here. And that's what I'm

414
00:31:29,319 --> 00:31:31,720
getting your vice on. He's kind of try to refocus.

415
00:31:32,799 --> 00:31:37,599
The Orthodox bishop says, h, he says some mystical things.

416
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:42,079
He says, well, God is who he is, and this

417
00:31:42,079 --> 00:31:45,599
this uh infuriates the rabbi. He says, you think that's

418
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:51,200
special who isn't who he is? But his his take

419
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:57,200
is entirely mystical. And and then the Mannix he asked

420
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,519
them all, well, would any reasonable person object to our portrayal?

421
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,000
And they all say no, No. I think I think

422
00:32:03,039 --> 00:32:05,880
this is all fine. I think it's tastefully done. The

423
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:12,000
Orthodox pre says, oh, I've seen worse, which is just

424
00:32:12,039 --> 00:32:16,880
a wonderful, uh sort of detached, h sort of approach,

425
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,960
which I much appreciate. I think that he comes out

426
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,720
of that maybe make maybe looking less serious than any

427
00:32:24,839 --> 00:32:28,880
of his comrades there, but from a certain perspective may

428
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:33,000
be more serious than all the rest of them put together. Now,

429
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,720
when the Communists when they assembol with Whitlock after they've

430
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:42,319
kidnapped him, of they they've employed the villain from Jurassic

431
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:48,720
Park to drug Whitlock's wine in a movie scene. Did

432
00:32:48,759 --> 00:32:50,200
you notice that that actor?

433
00:32:51,599 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: No, I actually had. I didn't even think about that,

434
00:32:54,319 --> 00:32:58,240
but now remembering it, that's exactly yeah.

435
00:32:58,559 --> 00:33:01,119
Speaker 3: I looked him up because I thought I recognized him.

436
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:06,640
He's he's the big round guy from Jurassic Park who's

437
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,920
who's trying to blackmail the park. I forget exactly what

438
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,279
he was doing, but he he meets his untimely end

439
00:33:13,359 --> 00:33:18,680
with the giant frill lizard. He's he makes a little

440
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,440
appearance there and he poisons George Clooney's wine and then

441
00:33:22,599 --> 00:33:26,519
carries him off into captivity. Clooney wakes up and he

442
00:33:26,839 --> 00:33:31,680
spends the entire film in his Roman legionary costume, which

443
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,359
is is also very comic, like he's carrying a sword

444
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:39,480
in every scene. He sits down with these these communists

445
00:33:39,519 --> 00:33:41,680
and they say, oh, we're a we're a reading group,

446
00:33:41,799 --> 00:33:44,279
you know, And he goes, oh, what what are you

447
00:33:44,359 --> 00:33:47,119
talking about? And they say, we're talking about history and

448
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,680
economics because it's the same thing, you know, don't you agree,

449
00:33:52,279 --> 00:33:56,240
And and they say, well, history is science of history

450
00:33:56,319 --> 00:34:01,319
is determined by materialistic formula, so we can explain everything

451
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,240
that has happened and everything that will happen according to

452
00:34:05,279 --> 00:34:08,400
our formula. So we know what the future will be.

453
00:34:09,039 --> 00:34:12,320
This is inevitable, and we are on the side of

454
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:17,840
the future. And once they get into the discussion, we

455
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:23,719
see the parallel emerge. Clooney is asking for clarification and

456
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,000
he asks one of the communists, so man is split,

457
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:32,519
and the communist says, yes, we have two classes. We've

458
00:34:32,519 --> 00:34:38,760
got the proletariat and the bourgeoisie, and they're in conflict

459
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,079
with one another. And we know the means to resolve

460
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,239
this conflict. It's going to be, you know, the future utopia,

461
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,480
and it's going to solve the dialectic of history. And

462
00:34:50,559 --> 00:34:56,880
this is just all orthodox Marxism. But in the background

463
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,400
of the meeting we have all these Communist members. They're

464
00:35:00,639 --> 00:35:07,000
all Hollywood writers. Uh, they're also all Amish, which is

465
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:12,519
coincident here. Many of these are these are kind of

466
00:35:12,679 --> 00:35:19,119
minor Hollywood actors that as as is the case with

467
00:35:19,159 --> 00:35:21,480
a lot of Cohen Brothers movies. They've they've appeared in

468
00:35:21,519 --> 00:35:26,920
other uh previous uh elements in their filmography, and a

469
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,039
lot of those in the communist group had previously been

470
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:39,840
in A Serious Man, which portrays this Amish community in Minnesota.

471
00:35:40,639 --> 00:35:45,840
So they're they're you know, ethnic actors, and they're portraying

472
00:35:46,599 --> 00:35:50,400
Communist subversives in Hollywood, and they and they brag that

473
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:58,159
they've they've inserted their Marxist doctrine into their screenwriting. But

474
00:35:58,199 --> 00:36:06,719
they're all personally personally vindictive. They want to loot the

475
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:11,679
studios because they believe they deserve more. And this this

476
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:16,039
comes out really clearly that there are several members of

477
00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:20,800
the group that are perpetually angry and they just randomly

478
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:28,800
belt out things, screaming out there. They're exploiters, they deserve

479
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:33,960
to be destroyed, and they're just randomly shouting in the background,

480
00:36:34,079 --> 00:36:37,320
and another character is constantly telling them to shut up.

481
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,000
It doesn't matter what one of these guys says, whatever

482
00:36:42,039 --> 00:36:44,400
he says, another character is always telling him to shut up.

483
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:50,800
And it's very funny, but we see that this this

484
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:55,639
kind of faith is a belief that man is split

485
00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,320
into two distinct classes, into warring classes, and this explosans

486
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:06,519
everything whereas the clergy are talking about the nature of God,

487
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,280
that God is split, and this determines man's relation to God,

488
00:37:11,519 --> 00:37:17,599
so that God became man, and this is a kind

489
00:37:17,639 --> 00:37:23,719
of split in the divinity that we insist this is unity,

490
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,119
this is the doctrine of the trinity, but that God

491
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:31,320
is both completely man and completely God in the person

492
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:36,599
of Jesus Christ. So it's a complex theological dogma, but

493
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,159
it's also a fig feature in the film, and we're

494
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,960
invited to consider it, and that's really extraordinary. Now that

495
00:37:45,119 --> 00:37:50,679
this isn't a Christian film given its makers, but I

496
00:37:50,679 --> 00:37:54,079
think they were taking it seriously. They're presenting it fairly.

497
00:37:56,199 --> 00:37:59,199
One reading of the film, which I've encountered in the

498
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,920
reviews is that this is all played cynically.

499
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:04,199
Speaker 1: I don't.

500
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 3: I don't think it has to be read this way.

501
00:38:06,639 --> 00:38:12,320
I certainly enjoy it. As an orthodox Christian. I take

502
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,519
these dog dog most entirely seriously, and I find the

503
00:38:15,519 --> 00:38:19,760
film extremely entertaining because I don't think it's it's doing

504
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,119
it any discredit well.

505
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:27,320
Speaker 1: Well, certainly, and I feel like the the the reason

506
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:32,000
that I know this film is not cynical is the

507
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,880
the sort of you know, rising star, you know, small

508
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:42,000
town American we mentioned earlier, because that character is played

509
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,199
for laughs. You know, for instance, he he sort of

510
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,440
you know, goes through He's cast in this sort of

511
00:38:49,199 --> 00:38:52,199
you know, period ballroom drama. You know, the other actors,

512
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:57,039
the director, very proper trained British actors, and you know,

513
00:38:57,079 --> 00:39:00,199
while clearly he is a fish out of water, the

514
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:05,239
relationship between him and the director, which is Lawrence Lawrence

515
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,159
in the film, but I mean it's it seems to

516
00:39:09,199 --> 00:39:13,000
be sort of a pastiche of like Lawrence Olivier, is

517
00:39:13,039 --> 00:39:16,800
that the brid is acting horribly to him, you feel

518
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,119
for him. And later, you know, he goes on this

519
00:39:20,199 --> 00:39:25,920
sort of studio arranged date with this other star and

520
00:39:27,199 --> 00:39:31,280
we see him again acting very genuinely. He likes this girl.

521
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,119
He is, you know, interacting with her in a very

522
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:40,039
non cynical, non predatory way, and he is in fact

523
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,360
that the man who you know returns George Gluney to

524
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,320
the studio. He ends up rescuing him. And it would

525
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,840
be very easy to play that character as a rube,

526
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,400
to play him, you know, as an untalented moron. But

527
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,320
you know, at this this date he goes on this woman.

528
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,960
This premiere, we see that he's actually a very talented musician,

529
00:40:00,079 --> 00:40:04,440
and obviously there is some dissonance because while he is

530
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,480
singing this sort of beautiful song, there's the kind of

531
00:40:07,519 --> 00:40:11,480
stock you know, Prospector Pete character in the background, you know,

532
00:40:11,599 --> 00:40:14,400
fumbling around and you know, falling into the pig trough

533
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,280
and we see the crowd laughing and he's looking around like, well, yeah,

534
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,360
it's funny, but also, you know, I did I sang

535
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,119
this song. You know, it was an emotional moment. And

536
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,079
you know, he is you know, sort of on the

537
00:40:27,119 --> 00:40:30,039
b plot for at least most of this. But again,

538
00:40:31,599 --> 00:40:35,679
this is normal small town American, you know, he's he

539
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,840
is shown to be very naive, but he is a

540
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,920
force for good in the film and is honestly better

541
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,159
than pretty much any other actor on a moral level

542
00:40:46,159 --> 00:40:49,039
we see in this film.

543
00:40:49,119 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 3: And he's obviously the outsider in Hollywood as well. And

544
00:40:55,199 --> 00:41:00,760
he's he's not a victim either. He could be victimized

545
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:05,559
easily by these these cynical power players that he's interacting with.

546
00:41:07,159 --> 00:41:13,079
He is very resourceful. He's also trustworthy. Eddie Mannix just

547
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:18,519
instinctively trusts him. Uh though he's aware of his limitations

548
00:41:18,559 --> 00:41:24,880
because he's a he's like a comic Western actor. The

549
00:41:25,199 --> 00:41:28,639
kinds of films they they see, Uh, you see Hobie

550
00:41:28,679 --> 00:41:31,159
Doyle acting in at at the very beginning, What what

551
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,800
he got his his start in?

552
00:41:34,039 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 1: What made him?

553
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:40,559
Speaker 3: Uh a minor you know western star in Hollywood. It's

554
00:41:40,599 --> 00:41:43,960
a corresponded to how John Wayne got his start. Did

555
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,800
you ever see those really early John Wayne movies, those

556
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:51,199
old black and white ones where he's young man, He

557
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:56,320
invariably like jumps off of a cliff on horseback into water.

558
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:02,800
They they redo that shot. They probably recycled one shot

559
00:42:03,159 --> 00:42:06,000
and put it in a dozen movies or something, because

560
00:42:06,039 --> 00:42:09,519
it must have been so very dangerous to pull off

561
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,719
this horse jumping over a vertical cliff or something. This

562
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,639
is the kind of thing that they're they're portraying Hobby

563
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:24,800
Daniels performing or Hobby Doyle performing. It doesn't require much

564
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:29,280
in the way of dialogue. It's gunfights and horse races

565
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,599
and stuff. But he gets he gets cast on on

566
00:42:32,679 --> 00:42:35,119
the sound stage and he's trying to adapt to it

567
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,800
and as part of the comic element of the movie.

568
00:42:39,039 --> 00:42:44,519
But it's one of the the subplots involved Scarlett Johansson

569
00:42:44,679 --> 00:42:49,239
is also in a subplot as a starlet who has

570
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:54,400
unexpectedly come down pregnant and has no husband, and Mannix

571
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,639
is trying to manage this for her, and that's and

572
00:42:56,639 --> 00:43:00,280
that's part of the comedy of it, and it also

573
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:07,920
it also refocuses the theme of fantasy versus reality. Mannix

574
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,800
goes and sees Scarlett Johansson. He says, have you thought

575
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,960
about who you're going to marry? Because you got to

576
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:20,599
marry somebody and this this speaks to the social norms

577
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,920
of the time. He says, well, we have to have

578
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:29,800
you married to somebody because your your image is that

579
00:43:30,159 --> 00:43:34,840
of the innocent woman. But we can't have a single mother,

580
00:43:36,559 --> 00:43:42,679
you know, replace your Hollywood image. And she's compliant to

581
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:46,440
some degree. They come up with this crazy scheme and such,

582
00:43:46,519 --> 00:43:49,079
but it ends up working out. I don't have to

583
00:43:49,119 --> 00:43:51,360
spoil it for you that that's one you should go

584
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:52,559
and find for yourself.

585
00:43:53,199 --> 00:43:58,599
Speaker 1: Well. Interestingly, on that minor plot again, it's it's an

586
00:43:58,639 --> 00:44:03,800
interesting moment when there's a sort of how we're introduced

587
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:05,960
to her as she is starring in this sort of

588
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,519
h I guess you could say kind of like mythically

589
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:14,599
informed synchronized swimming film, right, you know, it's very you know, elegant,

590
00:44:14,639 --> 00:44:19,400
and there's an orchestra next to the swimming pool, and

591
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,039
you know she ends up sort of at the climactic moment,

592
00:44:23,119 --> 00:44:26,039
which is an interesting repeat right that, over and over again.

593
00:44:26,079 --> 00:44:29,960
We see these climactic moments and scene sort of subverted

594
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,639
at the last minute. And when she's talking to Matt's

595
00:44:32,679 --> 00:44:34,760
on the side, she says, I just need a reliable man.

596
00:44:35,079 --> 00:44:38,039
You know. He goes through sort of comedically, the other

597
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,679
figures she's been married to. You know, he's been married

598
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,599
to a major mom mob figure, you know, a drug

599
00:44:45,639 --> 00:44:49,599
addicted musician. And now she's been you know, gotten pregnant

600
00:44:49,599 --> 00:44:53,840
with another director probably and you know, at first they think, well,

601
00:44:54,159 --> 00:44:57,639
you know, we'll have this director, you know, marry her,

602
00:44:58,000 --> 00:44:59,880
only to find out that he is, in fact Mary.

603
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:04,039
He has a wife back in Sweden. Obviously it's impossible,

604
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:11,320
but scarletor Henson is not necessarily playing the most sympathetic character,

605
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,880
at least initially. But you see a very interesting inversion

606
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:19,239
where when she is faced with or when she interacts

607
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:23,000
with a genuinely reliable man, right, the most reliable man

608
00:45:23,039 --> 00:45:25,679
in Hollywood. We see her character change in a very

609
00:45:25,679 --> 00:45:28,840
interesting direction. And like I said, I won't spoil it.

610
00:45:29,079 --> 00:45:31,280
You should watch it. It's a fun film. It's one

611
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:32,880
you can watch with your wife. Your wife will like

612
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:37,400
this film to you listener. But again, it's a moment

613
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:42,559
where this movie is less cynical than it initially appears,

614
00:45:42,639 --> 00:45:44,599
and less cynical than many have read it to be.

615
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:55,639
Speaker 3: Yes, certainly it comes into focus in curious minor scenes.

616
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:05,360
There are these interacts Mannix has with gossip columnists, both

617
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:11,480
portrayed by Tilda Swinton, who always does a fantastic job.

618
00:46:11,679 --> 00:46:17,679
She's such a great actress. She comes to Mannix and

619
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:20,920
she says, well, I've got I've got the goods on

620
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:26,480
Baird Whitlock. I'm going to write my column tomorrow and

621
00:46:26,559 --> 00:46:30,599
I'm I'm fishing about for more information here. I'm giving

622
00:46:30,639 --> 00:46:34,639
you an opportunity to change my story here if you

623
00:46:34,679 --> 00:46:41,039
give me more information. And she tells Mannix the people

624
00:46:41,199 --> 00:46:47,920
want the truth, and Mannix replies, people don't want the facts.

625
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:54,760
They want to believe, again emphasizing faith. And we've got

626
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,519
to have something worthy to believe in. And what is

627
00:46:57,559 --> 00:47:02,159
what is Hollywood offering? You know, it's it's Plato's cave.

628
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:09,760
It's believing in believing that Baird Whitlock is an upright

629
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:14,079
family man, which anyone that looks into the details of

630
00:47:14,079 --> 00:47:16,800
his life is going to know. And he's not the

631
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:22,800
same with Scarlett Johansson's she's not an innocent person the

632
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,880
way that Mannix kind of casually says, well, that's your image,

633
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,000
you know, that's what we've made you to be. You're

634
00:47:28,039 --> 00:47:32,280
an innocent woman. That's why everyone loves you. And then

635
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:36,079
they absurdly talk about the sort of details of her

636
00:47:36,119 --> 00:47:41,400
personal life. But it's it's true. Nevertheless, people do want

637
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:45,519
something to believe. Richard Weaver, who is one of my

638
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:51,079
favorite writers, a great Southern agrarian writer, he said, it's

639
00:47:51,119 --> 00:47:55,880
the raw stuff of life that is exactly what civilized

640
00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:01,840
people want and need to have refined. And we don't

641
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:08,719
want the mere, undigested facts. We want something higher to

642
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:12,920
believe in. We want to order these things, we want

643
00:48:13,119 --> 00:48:18,519
a system to have faith in. And this is the

644
00:48:18,559 --> 00:48:23,760
major conflict in the major groups we've encountered already in

645
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:33,519
the film, the Communists, the religious Christians. So the the

646
00:48:33,559 --> 00:48:38,639
plot comes to a head with the curious character Bert

647
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:46,320
Gurney portrayed by that that flaky looking fellow. I guess

648
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:52,119
he has a great profile. Is his name Channing Tatum?

649
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:53,000
Is that his name?

650
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:54,079
Speaker 1: Yes?

651
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:54,800
Speaker 3: Yeah?

652
00:48:54,840 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 1: And the the way that this character is introduced is

653
00:49:01,639 --> 00:49:09,280
legitimately hilarious because so that he is a you know,

654
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,320
he is one of these kind of you know, gay

655
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:15,039
Hollywood actors, and you're introduced to him in this sort

656
00:49:15,079 --> 00:49:20,440
of you know, Roger and a Hammerstein musical. And at first,

657
00:49:20,599 --> 00:49:25,559
it's from the film's perspective, played relatively straight double and

658
00:49:25,639 --> 00:49:28,760
tundra is intended, but as you get further and further

659
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:33,079
through the musical number, it's it's a group of sailors

660
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,320
singing about how they aren't going to see any women

661
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:40,440
while they're out at sea, and then dancing getting more

662
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:46,039
and more comedically homo erotic. Uh, it's genuinely it's a

663
00:49:46,119 --> 00:49:50,920
hilarious and relatively subtle joke in the film, right, they

664
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,400
never go out and say it, but it is sort

665
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,039
of funny. The dissonance you see between this you know

666
00:49:57,119 --> 00:50:00,000
more and more kind of fabulous glee club style dance

667
00:50:00,639 --> 00:50:03,679
and then the very kind of like dour Norman Rockwell

668
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:11,760
esque film director and also Josh Brolin's reaction. It's legitimately hilarious.

669
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,320
Speaker 3: Yes it is. It's one of the one of the

670
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:19,800
great old lampoons of the Golden Age of Hollywood. In

671
00:50:20,079 --> 00:50:25,360
this film. The synchronized swimming is another element that's just

672
00:50:25,559 --> 00:50:30,000
beautifully done, and it's remarkable that it really can be

673
00:50:30,119 --> 00:50:37,960
done anymore. The huge synchronized dance number with Tatum and

674
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:42,760
and the whole sick crew that is, that is also

675
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:48,000
very well done as well well. Bert Gurney, the channing

676
00:50:48,039 --> 00:50:53,320
Tatum's character is actually the ringleader of the communists, and

677
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,199
his house is the setting for the communist book reading

678
00:50:57,679 --> 00:51:05,880
group and uh Clooney's captivity. Uh Gurney returns to his

679
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:11,039
house with the intention of defecting to the Soviets, and

680
00:51:11,079 --> 00:51:15,719
he's actually arranged for a Soviet nuclear submarine to come

681
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:19,000
pick him up. It might not be a nuclear submarine,

682
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:24,679
it's certainly a Soviet submarine, I believe it's it's a

683
00:51:24,679 --> 00:51:27,960
minor role. And you don't never never see this guy,

684
00:51:29,159 --> 00:51:35,320
Dolf Gungrin, who is the he's the guy from the

685
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:40,440
Rocky film. He portrays the Soviet superboxer.

686
00:51:42,079 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, i'van Drego. He's also actually if he's not

687
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:48,599
a chemical engineer. I think he's a nuclear physicist. He's

688
00:51:48,679 --> 00:51:50,480
ugitimately a very intelligent man.

689
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 3: He's a very curious character. My brother loves this guy.

690
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:01,960
And and uh, he hasn't been in very many movies.

691
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:06,079
I think he played at James Bond villain once back

692
00:52:06,119 --> 00:52:10,480
in the seventies, but he only you never see his face,

693
00:52:10,519 --> 00:52:15,760
but he portrays the Soviet captain of the submarine. So

694
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:21,440
the Communists they row Bert Gurney out into Malibu Bay

695
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:26,079
and they rendezvous with the submarine, and in the process

696
00:52:26,159 --> 00:52:30,360
they lose the ransom that they got for Whitlock. They're

697
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:35,360
supposed to send it to the commentary and it's incredibly funny.

698
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,920
There's multiple layers of jokes to this. One of them,

699
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:44,519
which is kind of just a background joke, is that

700
00:52:44,639 --> 00:52:46,599
they have to row him out in this old timey

701
00:52:46,679 --> 00:52:50,000
row boat, and because they're all academics and writers, they

702
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,320
have to wear gloves to row a boat one hundred yards,

703
00:52:53,599 --> 00:52:59,960
which is funny. They're also, despite being Communists, they don't

704
00:53:00,119 --> 00:53:03,519
like they row in the most unsynchronized way possible. There's

705
00:53:03,559 --> 00:53:06,760
literally no coordination between them, which is a joke, but

706
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:10,079
also Tatum's dog. Is Is it named Engles? I think,

707
00:53:10,159 --> 00:53:13,519
isn't it? Yes? Yes, his dog, his name is Ingles.

708
00:53:14,119 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 1: It's this little, like white, fluffy dog. And there's this

709
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:20,320
very grand, dramatic moment where the you know, the kind

710
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:24,280
of second in command of the communists says, you know, hear, hear, brother,

711
00:53:24,559 --> 00:53:27,119
you know, take this as our small donation to the

712
00:53:27,119 --> 00:53:29,679
common turn. So he takes it. He's supposed to leave

713
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:32,880
his little flufy dog. And then the dog breaks out,

714
00:53:33,119 --> 00:53:36,280
runs away, and Tatum, who's been at least to this

715
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:40,719
point very you know austere, you know, kind of strong jawed,

716
00:53:41,679 --> 00:53:45,840
you know, flips his wrists out, catches the dog, and

717
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:49,400
then the money drops into the ocean. And the last

718
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:52,119
thing we see of this summarine is them walking in

719
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:56,159
at just the sound of this barking dog get get

720
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,920
quieter and quieter as they close the the you know,

721
00:54:00,039 --> 00:54:02,800
the hatch to the submarine. It's a very funny moment.

722
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:15,519
Speaker 3: And there they distinctively play Soviet era choral music in

723
00:54:15,599 --> 00:54:19,599
the scene. It always wants me to always stimulates me

724
00:54:19,639 --> 00:54:23,360
to go and find playlists on YouTube of of that

725
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:28,239
Soviet era music because I like it. I have a

726
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:32,960
guilty pleasure in listening to it. But it illustrates something

727
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:41,199
important that, as Weaver said, the Soviets were the first

728
00:54:41,559 --> 00:54:47,280
true realists in hundreds of years, and no dodging about

729
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:54,599
in the excluded middle will save Western liberalism. A possible

730
00:54:54,639 --> 00:54:59,360
allusion to James Burnham there, who Weaver was familiar with.

731
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:11,159
The Soviets are very hard logical believers in a doctrine,

732
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:15,000
and they believe that they're going to save the world,

733
00:55:16,119 --> 00:55:19,000
that this is going to Their success will mean the

734
00:55:19,119 --> 00:55:22,360
end of history, which means the end of conflict, the

735
00:55:22,519 --> 00:55:27,400
end of war, the end of suffering and evil. It

736
00:55:27,519 --> 00:55:32,239
is an apocalyptic vision, the solution of all of history,

737
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:40,199
and this inspires them to feats of sacrifice, courage, and

738
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:47,320
the art that surrounds it, which has certain religious kinds

739
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:49,960
of undertones. Of course, these are not people who believe

740
00:55:50,079 --> 00:55:54,960
in the spiritual world. They deny that this soul exists.

741
00:55:55,599 --> 00:55:59,800
You know, they're completely thoroughgoing materialists. But they're also messi

742
00:56:00,039 --> 00:56:06,199
and that that is part of the dichotomy here with

743
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,280
the two systems of belief presented in the film. The

744
00:56:09,599 --> 00:56:14,360
communist system, which uh isn't isn't given much serious treatment.

745
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:18,559
I think they present orthodox Marxism more or less. It's

746
00:56:18,639 --> 00:56:21,199
it's very clear what these people are talking about, even

747
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:25,000
though the dialogue is unfortunately short. I would have liked

748
00:56:25,039 --> 00:56:30,599
more in the communist reading group, but it's it's one

749
00:56:30,599 --> 00:56:33,360
of the one of these two systems presented here that

750
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:38,960
are in conflict. Obviously, but Hollywood isn't isn't representing you know,

751
00:56:39,599 --> 00:56:45,000
Christian belief or social norms. They're they're kind of representing

752
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:50,280
it in spite of themselves. Well, we finally get to

753
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:54,440
the the climactic scenes of the film, after the defection

754
00:56:54,559 --> 00:56:56,679
of Gurney. He gets on the submarine, he goes away.

755
00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:59,599
The communists are all rounded up by the police. Immediately

756
00:56:59,599 --> 00:57:06,840
after the cell is busted. Whitlock is returned by Hobie Doyle,

757
00:57:07,559 --> 00:57:10,400
who goes to the house in the nick of time,

758
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:15,039
gets Whitlock out of there, and then Whitlock confronts or

759
00:57:15,159 --> 00:57:22,079
Whitlock is confronted by Eddie Mannix. Whitlock mindlessly and he's

760
00:57:22,239 --> 00:57:25,039
just an absurd character with no ideas of his own.

761
00:57:26,599 --> 00:57:32,280
He is explaining Marxism to Mannix in his office and

762
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:34,440
he says, oh, well, I found out you know how

763
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:38,960
the world works, that history is science, that we know

764
00:57:39,039 --> 00:57:41,800
what's going to happen next. And all we're doing here

765
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:48,840
is we're manufacturing lollipops for the masses, so the fat

766
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:53,039
cats can get rich and exploit the proletariat. And this

767
00:57:53,119 --> 00:57:55,639
is all this all amounts to what they used to

768
00:57:55,880 --> 00:58:00,719
call bread and circuses, just to distract the masses of

769
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:03,440
people and to take their money. And in the midst

770
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:08,159
of this, of this thoughtless stream of consciousness from Clooney,

771
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:13,639
Josh Brolin gets up and starts slapping him across the

772
00:58:13,679 --> 00:58:18,960
face and says, I hear another word out of you

773
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:23,039
on this nonsense. I'm going to have you arrested for

774
00:58:23,119 --> 00:58:28,840
colluding in your own abduction. And Clooney, in the midst

775
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:32,519
of his explanation, he says, we have this delusion that

776
00:58:32,559 --> 00:58:36,840
we're producing something of artistic value, or that there's some

777
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:42,920
spiritual significance to what we're doing. And of course, the

778
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:50,119
the implication here is the Marxist denial of the spiritual realm.

779
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:57,280
They're completely materialist. Brolin gets up and then gives this

780
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:03,880
really interesting and spirited command to Clooning. He says, you're

781
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:06,639
going to go and give your speech at the foot

782
00:59:06,679 --> 00:59:10,440
of the Cross, and you're going to believe every word

783
00:59:10,559 --> 00:59:16,840
you say. And then Brolin gives what I think amounts

784
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:23,760
to another, you know, another sort of philosophical realism. He says,

785
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:25,840
you're going to do it because you are an actor,

786
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:29,559
and you do what you do just like the director

787
00:59:29,679 --> 00:59:33,119
does what he does. You do it because the picture

788
00:59:33,199 --> 00:59:37,239
has worth, and you have worth when you serve the picture.

789
00:59:38,199 --> 00:59:44,480
Now go out there and be a star. And ultimately,

790
00:59:44,719 --> 00:59:49,719
is charge is you got to believe there's something bigger

791
00:59:50,079 --> 00:59:55,400
in life. It's more than money. It's more than the

792
00:59:55,440 --> 01:00:00,320
material world. It's not about the owner of the of

793
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:04,480
the studio. It's not about the money that we make

794
01:00:04,559 --> 01:00:09,000
from the picture. It's about intrinsic worth that this is

795
01:00:09,039 --> 01:00:15,000
actually something. Ultimately, we're trying to do something beautiful here,

796
01:00:16,119 --> 01:00:18,280
and it's only gonna be beautiful, it's only gonna be

797
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:25,599
worthy if we believe, which is a wonderful comparison to

798
01:00:25,639 --> 01:00:33,360
what a worthwhile life looks like, that our actions have

799
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:42,440
significance when we have faith in the ultimate meaning. And ironically,

800
01:00:42,599 --> 01:00:47,360
just before this scene with Mannix, we have this absurd

801
01:00:47,559 --> 01:00:54,159
little vignette of a man on the set of the Crucifixion.

802
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:58,639
They're getting ready, you know, to shoot this climactic scene

803
01:00:58,639 --> 01:01:03,119
in Hail Caesar, and the one of the Errand boys,

804
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:07,039
he's distributing lunch to the set and he goes up

805
01:01:07,079 --> 01:01:12,000
to the actor who's all strapped to the cross, you know,

806
01:01:12,079 --> 01:01:15,840
and he's he's crucified on the cruss. You know, it's

807
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:20,960
an incredible difficult position to hold, and who knows how

808
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:24,119
long he's been there. They're obviously all exhausted because the

809
01:01:24,159 --> 01:01:27,360
star hasn't shown up yet. They're all just waiting for

810
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:32,039
the moment. And he goes up to the man portraying

811
01:01:32,159 --> 01:01:34,719
Jesus Christ, and he says, well, what kind of lunch

812
01:01:34,719 --> 01:01:39,400
do you have anyway? And he goes, oh, I don't know,

813
01:01:39,159 --> 01:01:44,880
you know, he's obviously very exhausted and in pain. And

814
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:48,519
he says, well, are you a principle or are you

815
01:01:48,599 --> 01:01:57,639
an extra? And this is uh, this is ultimately, you know,

816
01:01:57,719 --> 01:02:03,760
this is obviously the major question of the whole film.

817
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:07,599
It seems to me, the fact that it's put right

818
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:11,639
right where it is to stick into our heads, you know,

819
01:02:11,719 --> 01:02:16,239
the absurdity of it which makes us laugh. Is the

820
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:22,719
man portraying Jesus Christ in this Hollywood epic is he

821
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:30,840
a principal actor? Is he the point and the illusion,

822
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:34,440
of course is the broader one. Is he the point

823
01:02:34,519 --> 01:02:39,559
of human life? Is he supposed to be the point

824
01:02:39,599 --> 01:02:47,599
of our lives? Or is he just an extra? And

825
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:51,880
the actor says no, I'm a principle and goes, oh, okay,

826
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:54,599
well you get the better lunch then, not that he

827
01:02:54,639 --> 01:02:58,199
can eat it, you know, he's strapped to the cross. Well,

828
01:02:58,239 --> 01:03:01,440
then Clooney, after his meeting with Mannix, he shows up.

829
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:06,719
He gives his speech. It's a you know, it's rather

830
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:10,280
what you would expect from from a Hollywood piece of

831
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:15,719
the of the day, but it it gives. It gives

832
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:25,079
like basic Christian affirmation. A Roman legionary who has come

833
01:03:25,079 --> 01:03:30,440
into faith in Jesus Christ at the moment of his crucifixion,

834
01:03:32,159 --> 01:03:34,800
and George Clooney gives this this speech in front of

835
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:38,119
the cross, and he says, Christ came to ease the

836
01:03:38,159 --> 01:03:43,679
suffering of all men. He loves sinners. He knows all

837
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:48,400
that I've done, and yet he loved me. That he

838
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:54,119
is God revealed to us in this strange people, in

839
01:03:54,199 --> 01:03:59,159
this distant land, and we could see the truth of

840
01:03:59,199 --> 01:04:05,199
God if we had. And then he forgets his line,

841
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:11,559
and of course the missing word faith. If we only

842
01:04:11,599 --> 01:04:15,519
had faith, then we could see the point of human existence.

843
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:20,199
We would have the ultimate meaning that we can have

844
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:24,960
in our lives. And I think that if we interpret

845
01:04:25,079 --> 01:04:31,400
this straightforwardly, we see this as actually a very encouraging film,

846
01:04:33,039 --> 01:04:37,360
encouraging to people of faith. Though it is obviously a

847
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:41,239
comedy and it makes us laugh. I think that it

848
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:48,599
does what it does brilliantly. I think it's insightful, it's

849
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:55,519
moreover entertaining, but it's getting at the most fundamental questions

850
01:04:56,119 --> 01:05:00,400
of life. And that's one of the reasons why I

851
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:02,960
immediately enjoyed it when I saw it some years ago.

852
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:08,239
I guess it's ten years old, now, yeah, I was.

853
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:11,920
Speaker 1: You had shown it in class, I mean a decade ago,

854
01:05:12,639 --> 01:05:16,840
and I was what sixteen seventeen at the time, and

855
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:19,400
I enjoyed it, but I didn't absorb much. I understood

856
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:21,920
the Marxism angle. I thought it was funny that Herbert

857
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:25,679
Mark Cusa is in this film, which is admittedly quite funny,

858
01:05:26,079 --> 01:05:28,800
but I didn't take away a lot much more than that.

859
01:05:29,199 --> 01:05:32,840
And then rewatching it, I think my review mirrors yours.

860
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:37,480
It's genuinely a very touching film. It has the same

861
01:05:38,599 --> 01:05:43,000
Cohen Brothers regionalism that makes me love so many of

862
01:05:43,039 --> 01:05:47,679
their movies. And honestly, this movie's not particularly well reviewed.

863
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:51,559
It sort of has, you know, middling to low praise

864
01:05:52,079 --> 01:05:54,840
if you look at the critics, which you shouldn't. But

865
01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:57,800
I think it's quite a good film. I highly recommend it.

866
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:00,880
And honestly, George, this has been a fascinating discussion. Thank

867
01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:06,000
you so much for coming on to discuss it.

868
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:08,880
Speaker 3: It was a lot of fun. I really appreciate the invitation.

869
01:06:09,039 --> 01:06:13,119
It's pleasure to talk about this stuff. Thanks for having

870
01:06:13,159 --> 01:06:14,880
me well.

871
01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:19,559
Speaker 1: Definitely. Of course, as you said off air, you have

872
01:06:19,639 --> 01:06:23,039
added many more books to Tall Men Books, So if

873
01:06:23,039 --> 01:06:27,760
you're interested in deep historical primary sources that you cannot

874
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:30,679
get anywhere else, I highly recommend you check out Tall

875
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:33,440
Men Books. You also have a social media presence on

876
01:06:33,559 --> 01:06:38,880
substack and Twitter, as well as your Telegram, which is

877
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:43,199
I find incredibly amusing. It's very good. Those will all

878
01:06:43,199 --> 01:06:45,880
be linked down to the description. As far as my stuff,

879
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:49,760
Jayburdin Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, anywhere you listen to podcasts,

880
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:51,320
this is what I do now. If you want the

881
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:55,159
episodes without ads, which I realize art irritating, but they

882
01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:57,800
sort of fund this whole thing. It's five bucks a

883
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:01,159
month Patreon, Substack or gum Road. Uh, that's pretty below

884
01:07:01,199 --> 01:07:04,000
market rate, honestly, especially for how much content I put out.

885
01:07:04,039 --> 01:07:09,360
I've basically stuck it the lowest it'll go. So, you

886
01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:11,320
know what, It's not a perfect solution, but it's what

887
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:14,320
we've got. You can also check out our sponsor, Axios

888
01:07:14,360 --> 01:07:17,719
Remote Fitness Coaching. Jad's a good guy. You should support him.

889
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:20,639
His business is very good. He knows what he's talking about.

890
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:23,199
And again, Bagbie, thank you so much. It was great

891
01:07:23,239 --> 01:07:23,639
talking to you.

892
01:07:25,239 --> 01:07:26,159
Speaker 3: Good talk to you too.

893
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:29,679
Speaker 1: Thank you to everyone at home. Keep your head up.

894
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:49,199
I can't last forever. Good Night,