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Every 57 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:33.080 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 58 00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:37.719 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 59 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:53.439 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good evening, but from the 60 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:57.319 notorious serial killers of the Age of Aquarius to the 61 00:02:57.439 --> 00:03:01.759 ruthless mob bosses of the Jazz Age and beyond. Real 62 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:05.520 Crime is the first high quality true crime magazine on 63 00:03:05.639 --> 00:03:09.159 the new stand. Every issue of Real Crime reveals the 64 00:03:09.319 --> 00:03:13.840 untold stories behind the world's most gripping cases, the breathtaking 65 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:18.960 experiences of investigators and survivors, and blow by blow accounts 66 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:23.919 of how lawbreakers were finally brought to justice. Deliver with 67 00:03:24.039 --> 00:03:28.120 the same icy intensity and forensic detail of popular documentaries 68 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:32.120 and TV shows. Every issue is packed with groundbreaking interviews, 69 00:03:32.240 --> 00:03:36.159 original research in the incriminating photos behind the world's most 70 00:03:36.199 --> 00:03:40.919 infamous cases, with breathtaking accounts from investigators' survivors and the 71 00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:44.960 criminal masterminds themselves. The magazine opens up the world of 72 00:03:45.080 --> 00:03:51.159 serial killers, ruthless mob bosses, organized crime, unsolved cases and beyond. 73 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:54.599 James Horrer, editor in chief at Real Crime, said, we 74 00:03:54.680 --> 00:03:56.800 are always looking for new ways to meet our reader's 75 00:03:56.879 --> 00:04:01.439 need for intelligent, trusted reporting and opinion. The first of 76 00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:04.240 its edition takes readers on a fascinating journey into the 77 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:07.280 minds of some of the most notorious serial killers, including 78 00:04:07.360 --> 00:04:11.280 Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, and Fred and Rose West. It 79 00:04:11.360 --> 00:04:13.800 also includes a special interview with the woman who shot 80 00:04:13.879 --> 00:04:16.920 footage of the OJ Simpson car chase on the twentieth 81 00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:23.519 annivertversary of the contentious trial. The magazine that we're featuring 82 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:29.000 this afternoon is Real Crime with my special guest editor, 83 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:32.319 journalist and author James Horr. Welcome to the program, and 84 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:33.680 thank you for agreeing to this interview. 85 00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:36.439 James Horr, Well, thank you very much for having me. 86 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:38.839 Dan really appreciate you finding the time to get me 87 00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:39.360 on the show. 88 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:44.040 Well, thank you very much. It's always a pleasure to 89 00:04:44.959 --> 00:04:50.720 let the audience that has been following this program for 90 00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:55.040 years something new and unique and very well deserving of 91 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:58.240 their attention, and this certainly is something that they would 92 00:04:58.279 --> 00:04:59.920 be interested in real crime. 93 00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:04.560 No, thank you very much. I really appreciate that. 94 00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:09.959 Thank you. Now tell us what did you want to 95 00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:13.040 create with real crime and what did you feel you 96 00:05:13.079 --> 00:05:17.399 could contribute to the world of true crime with this magazine. 97 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:24.040 I think initially we were kind of I mean, it 98 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:27.360 was born out of a very kind of basic need 99 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:32.040 for us, imagine publishing. We would would witness the way 100 00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:36.199 that people in the office were talking about podcast like Cereal, 101 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:41.439 or shows like The Jinks, you know, the documentaries like 102 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:45.839 our Tales of the Grim Sleeper, things like that. These 103 00:05:45.879 --> 00:05:50.439 things had christ over from you know, the existing true 104 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:54.680 crime subculture. You know, a world that you're deeply immersed 105 00:05:54.680 --> 00:05:56.240 in and your your readers are immersed in, and they 106 00:05:56.279 --> 00:05:59.439 were kind of making their sort of impact felt in 107 00:05:59.560 --> 00:06:02.839 the the mainstream. And this was, you know, before Making 108 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:04.959 a Murderer. I mean, now we're living in the post 109 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:07.959 Making a Murderer world and that seems kind of obvious, 110 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:10.639 but back then we were just conscious of, you know, 111 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:15.079 these were great, kind of compelling, exciting, thrilling stories and 112 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:18.480 they were you know, they were reaching out to an 113 00:06:18.519 --> 00:06:22.560 audience that was sort of broader than we could really 114 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:26.079 kind of wrap our heads around. So our goal was 115 00:06:26.279 --> 00:06:29.519 very much to create a magazine that you know, drew 116 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:33.319 from that that Polk tradition of you know, the original 117 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:36.839 true detective magazine and the sort of true crime magazines 118 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:41.839 of the past, but presented it in a sophisticated, kind 119 00:06:41.879 --> 00:06:46.720 of mainstream blockbuster away that would be familiar to readers 120 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:50.439 of magazines like Wired or Empire that had those kind 121 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:55.839 of high production values. That was very much the kind 122 00:06:55.839 --> 00:07:02.720 of the written sort of newsstand equivalent of The Jinks 123 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:07.680 or even Making a Murderer Now, and I think that 124 00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:09.560 is essentially what we wanted to bring to it. We 125 00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:12.839 wanted to reach out into the true crime world and 126 00:07:12.920 --> 00:07:14.800 bring in some of those kind of authors and some 127 00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:18.879 of those journalists that have a reputation already in that industry, 128 00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:23.920 but then bring our magazine skills to that. Our ability 129 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:28.199 to create these kind of incredible bespoke graphics and reconstructions 130 00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:34.079 of these the inside of Edgean's house or the you know, 131 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:36.639 a blow by blow account of their left hands to 132 00:07:36.759 --> 00:07:39.560 heist or something like that, we had I think a 133 00:07:39.639 --> 00:07:43.439 lot of magazine craft and a lot of kind of 134 00:07:43.560 --> 00:07:51.519 skill in creating a you know, sort of sophisticated, thrilling product, 135 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:53.639 and we just needed the incredible stories to match it. 136 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:56.680 And I think every single issue that we've produced, everything 137 00:07:56.759 --> 00:08:00.519 in there has just been absolutely compelling. I mean, when 138 00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:03.120 we pitch each issue of the magazine to our directors, 139 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:05.399 they sign off the covers and they sign off the 140 00:08:05.480 --> 00:08:11.040 core features. They're kind of, i think appalled and fascinated 141 00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:14.040 by some of the stuff we're getting away with. But 142 00:08:14.600 --> 00:08:17.439 the point is that everything is just a great story. 143 00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:21.199 All of these stories are fantastic, and it's just such 144 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:24.279 a privilege to kind of bring these out of the 145 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:28.160 dark corners of you know, the true crime sort of 146 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:31.439 subsen and the true crime niche and into the you know, 147 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:33.440 the supermarkets and into the news agents. 148 00:08:36.279 --> 00:08:40.480 Yes, I agree, this is an incredible production value with 149 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:44.240 the glossy covers and just I mean, I've been reading 150 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:46.360 this stuff for years, but to see some of the 151 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:50.200 photos in one of the latest editions of seven or 152 00:08:50.360 --> 00:08:54.279 number seven of number eight with Dennis Raider and the BTK, 153 00:08:55.639 --> 00:09:00.320 just incredible photos and just with with the production value 154 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:05.039 that you have, this just amazing, amazing graphics in this 155 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:10.759 magazine and overall, look, that's amazing. Now, can you tell us. 156 00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:13.559 You talked about the people that you've the team that 157 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:16.919 you've assembled. Well, where do you go to get your authors? 158 00:09:17.000 --> 00:09:17.639 And where did you. 159 00:09:17.799 --> 00:09:22.360 Find these authors? And tell us tell us a little 160 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:25.480 bit about the unique nature of your magazine by first 161 00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:29.399 telling us where the source of your your authors and 162 00:09:29.519 --> 00:09:31.120 why you picked these authors. 163 00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:34.919 Well, the kind of the freelance pool that we have 164 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:41.000 has unfolded very organically, and I think that is that 165 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:43.759 is shown why the kind of the tone that's developed. 166 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:46.480 When we first started, it was a small team that 167 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:50.639 was myself and I worked across a number of other magazines, 168 00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:56.480 so you know, it was super kind of trench warfare 169 00:09:56.720 --> 00:09:59.519 publishing really, and the designer was also working across other 170 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:01.960 magazine so I was being left to my own devices 171 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:04.600 a little bit, and I was simply seeking out the 172 00:10:04.679 --> 00:10:07.240 writers that I read on the internet. As I was 173 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:11.519 approaching people that I recognized from Vice from Sword and Scale. 174 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:17.879 Emily Webb, who writes about kind of suburban Australian murders, 175 00:10:17.960 --> 00:10:21.720 I was familiar with because my partner's Australian, so she was, 176 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:26.200 you know, my go to for that sort of uniquely 177 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:30.720 kind of ossie sort of picket fence sense of dread 178 00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:32.879 that I don't think you can fake and I think 179 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:36.240 that sense of place is very important as well. And 180 00:10:36.360 --> 00:10:38.480 from those people, they sort of put me in touch 181 00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:43.600 with other kind of like minded sort of freelancers. And 182 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:46.120 one of the first people we approached was Seth Faranti, 183 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:51.039 who kind of writes about his prison experiences and about 184 00:10:51.879 --> 00:10:55.440 kind of gangs that he was loosely associated with the 185 00:10:55.519 --> 00:10:57.559 members of when he was inside. And he writes for 186 00:10:57.720 --> 00:11:01.039 Vice and another other website, and he puts in touch 187 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:05.039 with Christian Sepolini, who is a kind of an organized 188 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:08.960 crime researcher. And all of these guys just have a 189 00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:15.559 fantastic attitude. They're so excited, they're so kind of they're 190 00:11:15.799 --> 00:11:17.879 so willing to kind of leap into the space that 191 00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:22.519 we provide them. I mean, it's a very writer led magazine. 192 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:27.440 We don't sit back and kind of make these demands 193 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:29.360 about where we want features to go or how we 194 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:32.840 want things to be covered. We i mean, part of 195 00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:35.159 the reason that we've picked them is for their voice, 196 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:37.480 and for their expertise and for you know, all these 197 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:39.360 unique things that they bring to each story. We just 198 00:11:39.399 --> 00:11:42.679 want to give them the freedom to tell that story, 199 00:11:42.919 --> 00:11:45.919 give them the kind of the coaching and the guidance 200 00:11:46.039 --> 00:11:48.080 to kind of tell that story in a visual way 201 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:53.639 that suits the publication. I think one of the most 202 00:11:53.720 --> 00:11:58.159 interesting kind of directions our freelance portuck was I was 203 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:01.679 joined on issue one by my colleague from different magazine, 204 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:06.240 Jonathan Hapfell, who is he comes from a creative writing background. 205 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:10.080 I come from a journalism background, and he's a kind 206 00:12:10.120 --> 00:12:13.120 of a horror film fan. And that was really the 207 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:16.360 overlap in the concentric circles between real crime and what 208 00:12:16.519 --> 00:12:18.039 he was doing in his day job. So I kind 209 00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:20.519 of borrowed him for a couple of weeks to do 210 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:22.759 a few bits and bobs to kind of get some 211 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:25.279 features commissioned for me to write some features as well. 212 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:29.039 He did the the OJ Simpson article in the first issue, 213 00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:33.120 and he brought on a lot of his kind of 214 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:37.240 peers that were interested in the subject matter. A lot 215 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:42.960 of those people come from sort of more movie writing 216 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:46.320 background as the kind of film critics or the cultural critics, 217 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:49.679 and that took us in quite an unexpected direction. I mean, 218 00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:52.879 two of the articles that you picked out, the Dennis 219 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:55.679 Nielson article, which was written by Charlie Orton, who is 220 00:12:56.919 --> 00:13:03.600 a media lecture at university, A real kind of has 221 00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:08.200 a real interest in taboos and transgression and sexuality and 222 00:13:08.279 --> 00:13:12.919 things like that. So this was all, you know, an 223 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:16.039 opportunity that they were so keen to leap on. And 224 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:21.120 the Hammermaniacs article as well was from another one of 225 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:25.039 those those writers. And I was asked in an interview 226 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:28.840 fairly recently with a Norwegian newspaper what I thought that 227 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:32.960 fiction writers could take away from true crime writers. And 228 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:38.000 I gave a fairly kind of concise aren't say, you know, 229 00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:41.720 do you research, get the facts right, your subject, get 230 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:45.879 that sort of all those details nailed. Don't take anything 231 00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:48.720 for granted, you know, make sure when you're talking about 232 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:53.960 the crunch of gravel underfol that there was actually gravel underfoot, right. 233 00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:57.080 But it made me think about the value that true 234 00:13:57.159 --> 00:14:01.639 crime writers could take away from the you know, the 235 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:06.919 creative writers, the fiction writers, and these people, the horror 236 00:14:06.919 --> 00:14:09.759 writers have kind of become our go to guys for 237 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:15.120 you know, the big name, compelling sort of visceral serial killers, 238 00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:20.000 the dharmas, the bundies, the gases, the milats, because I 239 00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:23.799 think over eight or ten pages, there's very little that 240 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:27.200 real crime can offer that story in the way that 241 00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:30.200 we can we can add something to those smaller stories, 242 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:32.279 because there's already so much out there, it's already been written. 243 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:35.159 We were just kind of standing on the shoulders of 244 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:38.200 giants with those kind of stories. So in order to 245 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:42.240 really bring something new to that, these guys kind of 246 00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:46.080 they hone in on that sense of narrative. They hone 247 00:14:46.120 --> 00:14:49.200 in for those kind of motifs, They look for the foreshadowings, 248 00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:52.240 and they're the kind of you know, the nice little 249 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:57.080 narrative tricks, and that I think has been what's partly 250 00:14:57.159 --> 00:15:00.200 opened up real crime and you know, a completely from 251 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:04.080 direction for us. It's sort of bringing in that the theatrically, 252 00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:06.679 it's bringing in some of the tools of fiction. But 253 00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:09.320 it's those kind of theatrical elements and those tools of 254 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:15.360 fiction that have made shows like Making a Murderer so successful, 255 00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:20.039 even though they're obviously kind of controversial from a straight 256 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:23.519 sort of true crime the portage point of view. So 257 00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:25.679 it's that's a very long winded answer. 258 00:15:27.559 --> 00:15:31.200 Yes, that's very good. I saw that too, and myself. 259 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:33.600 The only thing that's left, the only frontier left is 260 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:38.080 I think is the I and I I'm very interested 261 00:15:38.120 --> 00:15:41.000 in what you said with this crossover with horror and 262 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:44.720 true crime in that there are those true crimes that 263 00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:49.000 based on the you know, the the full research and 264 00:15:49.279 --> 00:15:52.440 the skills of the true crime authors you know that 265 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:55.279 I've been interviewing now for six years, in that they 266 00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:57.519 bring out the stories and you can only classify it 267 00:15:57.559 --> 00:16:00.840 as true horror. And then there is a horror as 268 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:06.679 horrible and incredible and amazing and almost unbelievable as horror stories, 269 00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:10.600 but they're absolutely true. So I think that's what your 270 00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:14.960 magazine represents to me, just fascinating stories that are written 271 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:19.039 in that tone that you know, sort of because of 272 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:22.600 the access as well, when you're talking to Ivan Malatt's nephew, 273 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:26.039 you're getting a different perspective from the stories that we've 274 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:27.200 already heard as well too. 275 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:30.639 Yeah, it's so important to have that balance. I think 276 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:36.720 we can do an article that's really sort of gets you, 277 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:40.240 you know, into the cruel space in the boots of 278 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:43.799 the car, like running through the forest with the you know, 279 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:47.399 the branches lashing at your face and the kind of 280 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:50.320 the barking of dogs behind you and all of that stuff. 281 00:16:50.440 --> 00:16:54.399 But I think unless you have the authority, unless you 282 00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:57.639 have you know, you you reach out, you try and 283 00:16:57.679 --> 00:16:59.840 get those things in there, You try and talk to 284 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:03.480 criminologists or the investigators of the psychologists, or you know, 285 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:08.119 the relatives. I think that's when you're in danger of 286 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:12.240 kind of crossing too far over the line. I mean, 287 00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:18.079 it would be ridiculous to think that everyone who's engaging 288 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:20.240 with true crime, and I mean it's a broad church. 289 00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:23.319 There are people who read the magazine who have, you know, 290 00:17:23.359 --> 00:17:26.759 what you might call professional interests. There'll be criminology students, 291 00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:30.400 or they'll be forensic psychology students, or they'll be you know, 292 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:35.640 practicing forensic scientists and things like that. But I think 293 00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:37.839 the vast majority of the readers aren't, you know. I 294 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:41.920 think there are all these different needs that they bring 295 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:47.240 to the subject matter. So I'm sureways the case for many, 296 00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:50.559 if not all, true crime authors. They want to be 297 00:17:51.079 --> 00:17:53.680 they want to explore their fears in a safe environment. 298 00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:57.240 They want to kind of twitch the curtains and peer 299 00:17:57.359 --> 00:17:59.519 out at something horrible that's happening in the street while 300 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:02.160 still being kind of safe. They want that thrill, and 301 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:06.799 they want that sense of voyeurism. And there's also the 302 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:09.759 fascination and the allure. And I think it's a mistake 303 00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:15.000 to pretend that what we're doing here is just serving 304 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:20.640 that kind of higher sort of that higher need. It's 305 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:26.079 not just about offering something kind of sophisticating them worthy. 306 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:28.920 We're not ashamed of the fact that the allure for 307 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:33.720 this is a fascination, a fascination mixed with a revulsion. 308 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:37.519 And I think that the narrative style that we're playing 309 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:40.599 with is a fair reflection of that. And that's especially 310 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:43.000 brought out in some of the big serial killer features 311 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:47.039 because I mean, those characters, and they are characters have 312 00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:51.920 taken on such a larger than life kind of folkloric element. 313 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:58.640 They have names like Batman villains. They occupy a place 314 00:18:58.759 --> 00:19:03.799 in I think the American kind of popular culture, especially 315 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:08.319 that's you know, would have traditionally been occupied by earlier 316 00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:13.799 civilizations in you know, why the Grendel or the Harpies 317 00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:17.839 or the Cyclops and things like that, that these very living, 318 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:23.720 kind of visceral evidence based tales of why you should 319 00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:26.839 not talk to strangers or you know, you should be 320 00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:31.839 heaven before nightfall. It's yeah, it's a tricky balance. It's 321 00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:36.519 a tricky balance I think that we've been so mindful 322 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:40.880 of from the outset especially because we are such a 323 00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:46.200 mainstream magazine and there's always that fear that the wrong 324 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:48.599 people will pick up an issue and choose to be 325 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:51.880 offended by what they see as being potentially exploitative or 326 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:55.920 potentially sensation still potentially glib, and so it's important to 327 00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:01.640 have that authority, you know, present on every page. As 328 00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:05.960 much as we kind of you know, playing around with 329 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:09.240 the sheer nastiness of the of the cases. 330 00:20:12.599 --> 00:20:15.079 Now we've talked about them before, we get to specific 331 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:21.079 stories to demonstrate and to show the depth of the 332 00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:26.559 magazine itself and also the I guess the format that 333 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:30.720 you that you employ here and so tell us what 334 00:20:31.880 --> 00:20:37.000 exactly that mix is that makes your magazine very very unique. 335 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:40.799 What is that mix that you employ with the stories 336 00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:41.759 that you choose. 337 00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:46.000 Well, we've almost got a kind of a formula for 338 00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:49.960 the bulk of the magazine now, not to demystify it 339 00:20:50.079 --> 00:20:56.279 too much, but we try and have a big kind 340 00:20:56.359 --> 00:21:02.599 of alpha name serial killer feature. And because as I've said, 341 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:05.799 these are stories that have been told, the only way 342 00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:09.680 I could bring anything new to ed Kemper would be 343 00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:13.359 if I was a you know, a forensic psychologist with 344 00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:17.279 you know, twenty years of experience who had spent fifteen 345 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:19.640 of those years going through his files or something like that. 346 00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:21.839 We're not going to be breaking new ground on that. 347 00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:27.440 So those features are our license to kind of tell 348 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:30.440 a story, not tell Lee's story, but tell a story 349 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:35.759 that conforms to certain motifs. And you know, now want 350 00:21:35.799 --> 00:21:37.440 to get back to what I think of as the 351 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:41.920 horror writers we can. Part of the joy I have 352 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:46.160 as an editor is being so surprised by them because 353 00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:49.680 I'm able to just give them a few reference points, like, 354 00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:52.920 for instance, with the Eileen one Us cover a feature, 355 00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:55.680 all I said was, you know, give it a bit 356 00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:58.440 of eye spit on your grave. You know, think of 357 00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:02.759 this as being a kind of revenge torture porn movie. 358 00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:05.799 And the feature kind of sprung out of that, and those, 359 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:09.720 you know, those alpha serial killer features are are kind 360 00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:14.799 of licensed to be a little bit more creative. The secondary, 361 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:18.599 kind of sort of main feature, which I think fights 362 00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:22.559 with the serial killers for the cover space, are the 363 00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:25.799 kind of I think of them as, mean, the domestic horrors. 364 00:22:25.880 --> 00:22:30.680 They're the more contemporary cases, usually from the last decade 365 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:33.279 or the last two decades, but they're the ones that 366 00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:38.519 I think that bring the you know, bring the kind 367 00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:42.480 of just the sheer and pleasantness of the subject home 368 00:22:42.559 --> 00:22:45.720 for people. They're the ones that really kind of leap 369 00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:47.799 off the news stand for us, and I think that's 370 00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:51.920 why they have been predominant the UK based cases like 371 00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:59.279 Madeline McCann or Becky Watts or Beverly alett Or and 372 00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:03.880 the hammer Maniacs was a rare international example of that. 373 00:23:04.119 --> 00:23:08.279 It taps into more kind of domestic fears, It taps 374 00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:11.480 into fears about the safety of your children, fears about 375 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:14.160 your own safety. And in contrast, I think to that 376 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:21.119 the serial killers can often appear remote and you know, 377 00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:26.079 sometimes cartoonish. I guess that's partly a result of the 378 00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:28.960 way in which they've informed the portrayal of characters like 379 00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:32.920 Michael Myers and his ilk and you know, films like 380 00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:35.960 the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. But they've kind of been absorbed 381 00:23:35.960 --> 00:23:39.000 into that same cannon. So you know, you look at 382 00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:41.559 pictures of John Wayne Gacy and his clown makeup and 383 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:43.519 you think, there's no danger of me meeting that time. 384 00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:45.319 I'm not going to meet anyone like that. My life 385 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:48.960 does not involve murderous clowns. That's just not a thing. 386 00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:54.440 But you see some of these, the domestic terrors, and 387 00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:58.839 those are the things I think that really get you. 388 00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:02.799 Those are the cover and the images will be the features. 389 00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:05.000 When we look searching through the images and we're making 390 00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:07.680 our imagdraces for the features, those are usually the ones 391 00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:11.519 that kind of might get some of the team when 392 00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:15.680 they're going through them. The rest of the magazine, we 393 00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:20.079 try and have a kind of a mob feature, not 394 00:24:20.200 --> 00:24:23.519 always a kind of classic mob feature, sometimes you know, 395 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:27.519 sort of nineteen eighties, nineteen nineties one for a bit 396 00:24:27.559 --> 00:24:30.240 of balance, and we try and move around the globe 397 00:24:30.279 --> 00:24:34.319 a little bit as well and get some some heists 398 00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:37.240 in there. And the heists almost feel like a little 399 00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:39.359 bit of a breather after some of the more kind 400 00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:44.440 of you know, intense stuff. They're the features where you 401 00:24:44.599 --> 00:24:46.880