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Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekinana Show. Thomas,

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how are you doing? I don't know, well, thank you awesome. Well.

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After finishing the California series and then covering the nineteen

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eighty eight movie Dennis Hopper movie Colors for those of

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you who haven't heard, and living under a Rock, Thomas

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and I watch movies and comments on them and do

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our sort of own mystery science Theater three thousand and

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it is available on my website from Emmy on the

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Wall dot com. Forward slash movies links to all the

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movies we've done there. And right before that, we actually

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did tryump for the Will, that nineteen thirty five money

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Rife install. So there's some good stuff there. Go check

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it out. All right. New topic, and this is one

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that I probably brought up a year ago and we

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just decided to do other stuff. So the life and

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the thought of Oswald Moseley. Where do you want to start?

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Speaker 2: Mosley's background, going back by literally fourth centuries, there's a

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lot of liminal events in British history. I mean that

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that that's not just some sort of like literary trope

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or something like don't understand like where Mosley ended up

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and like why he took the path he did, Like

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you've got to understand the trajectory of his family, Like

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he wasn't he wasn't an ordinary like lesser noble or whatever.

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You know, it makes perfect sense why he established but

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became the only viable like fascist tendency in Britain because

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there were a number of them and none of them

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gained any traction. Because the people at the helm we

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were bizarre people who weren't plugged into the zeitguy store.

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They were just you know, or they were just half

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assed tories who had some admire ath or Mussolini, so

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they you know, they didn't like communism, so like oh

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I'm a fascist or you know, they were they were

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these simple minded people who were kind of taken in

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by Darwinist uh intellectual cultism, you know, like Arnold Lease

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and will get into the you know, mostly actually understood

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fascism and he actually understood like the historical implications of it.

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And like I said, his he had a storied family,

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but like not in the way that people think, you know,

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like the kind of traditional and punitive description of his heritages.

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Oh well, he was just lesser aristocrat and as those

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people lost their privilege, they became fascist. Like that doesn't

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make any sense and that doesn't really track. You know,

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Moseley was basically middle class. His family had a lot

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of money. They were incredibly wealthy for hundreds of years,

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but they weren't this powerful uh like Noble House or something,

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you know, and the unreconstructed House of Commons Like really

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until the middle of the nineteenth century, you know, most

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of the UK had like no representation in Parliament, and

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uh the House of Moseley, as it were, was one

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of those was part of that unrepresented demographic, you know,

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So they weren't this idea that the Mosleys were, you know,

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these kinds of like this kind of aristocratic faction in

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Parliament trying to like deny people their uh you know,

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being manumented and given the uh franchise. Like that's not

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what happened. Like they didn't really have the franchise, you know,

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Like it wasn't and understand like where Mosley came from,

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Like you've got to understand that peculiar kind of localism

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that emerged in England, like specifically England, and uh, like

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the Mosleys their fate was was bound up with h

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clergy of the Church of England and uh, like the

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British military Officer Corps, Like I was kind of like

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the such that they had like influence in their locale,

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Like those are really the people they indexed with, which

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makes perfect sense. But they had this basic mistrust like

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both of Parliament and of like traditional nobles, and that's

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like where fascism comes from, you know what I mean,

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Like it this should be clear as data to anybody.

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Like Mosley wasn't a guy who followed fans, and he

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wasn't uh, he wasn't somebody who did stuff for cloud

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you know, I mean obviously like nor was the guy

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who just like enjoyed being an iconic class like you

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believed in everything he was saying. And I think it's

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not just because like of an anglophone person. I find

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Mosey to be the most relatable of like fascist uh leaders.

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You know, Hitler was a messianic personage and almost like

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a great con like he It's hard to find people

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like that relatable, you know, the people like Kuadrian who

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were like orthodox mosda head like it doesn't it's you know,

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I find that to be like literally Byzantine, you know.

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But you know, Mosley is a somebody I think who

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doesn't really get enough ink in America. Like the British

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write about him all the time. It's usually punitive and

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stupid and simple minded, but it's kind of ignored in

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the United States or such that he's ranted any attention

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at all. People act like it was some like weird

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crank or like some or some or some like insignificant

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personage like George Lincoln Rockwell, like they don't understand, they

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don't understand, like where he was speaking from. The guy

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had tens of thousands of followers. And for UH, for

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somebody after UH, after the the kind of modern House

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of Commons, after eighteen thirty two, like after there were

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formats for UH for a true like UH kind of

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revolutionary party like upstart party to get like forty or

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fifty thousand members. And for clarity, these are like dudes

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paying members. Like the UK has actual parties. It doesn't

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just have brandings. It's not like the Republican Party, which

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is at an actual party, you know. And before mostly

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these these schismatic UH, you know, kind of self declared

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fascists and national socialists. They'd clock UH at peak like

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four or five hundred dues paying members like most of

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the serious guy and there's a reason why, you know,

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he was targeted the way he was. And there's a

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reason why, uh, you know, he he got an audience

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with uh, with Gurbles and and some of these other

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third personages. He wasn't a joker. But you know, and

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also too, like I it's not most of these counterfactuals.

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There wasn't jumping around it. But I'll get into the

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the a more kind of coherent narrative in a moment.

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But a lot of these kind of factual speculations about

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what would have happened, and you know, if Edward the

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eighth hadn't advocated, and if the War Party hadn't prevailed

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in the UK, or alternatively, if Sea Lion had actually

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been a serious, we devised mission to conquer the United Kingdom,

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you know, by by force of arms by the German Reich,

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like like Mosley absolutely like would have been the man

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that the Reich looked to the you know, to act

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as as kind of like a proxy regime, you know,

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in no small measure because Mosley he wasn't really a

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fringe figure, you know, like he was he was like

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a very respectable guy, you know, like he became something

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of a fringe figure, particularly after the War Party was

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able to you know, kind of shut down I mean

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all opposition you know in the House of Commons as

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well as in in the national media and everywhere else.

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But you know what, but mostly was dangerous to the

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War Party precisely because he he wasn't like this fringe

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character you know, and he wasn't and he was he

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wasn't just like the scion of of like a respectable

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family who who went on some crazy lark, you know,

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like Rockwell or something like. He was a serious fascist.

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It wasn't. It wasn't a you know, some kind of

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some kind of theatrical protus posture. But like the background

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of fascism in Britain is range. The first true like

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self identified like British Fascist Party was literally like the

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British FASCISTI who then became the British Fascists and then

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in twenty three like they they they incorporated after the

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Muslims march on her own. It was a lady who

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formed the organization. It was Rotha intern Ormon. Very strange lady,

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very much, I mean to be crashed, very much, kind

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of like a butch lesbian. I mean it's just like

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a fact. She volunteered in World War One as an

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ambulance driver and she was under a pretty heavy fire.

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You know. She was like a serious person, but she

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was like this weird eccentric and she was, uh. She

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was born to uh, an officer who had stood with

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the Essex Regiment who was kind of like the Essex

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Regiment was kind of the p to like the British

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Army Infantry for a long time, you know, and her uh,

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her mom was Blanche Simmons, who was another aristocrat. Her

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maternal grandfather had been a field marshal. You know. These

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people were extraordinarily wealthy, okay, and she was kind of

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like the strange like lesbian daughter. She was like she

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actually was one of the founders for all practical purposes

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or like the scouting movement, like the boy and Girl

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Scouts in Britain they call it something different. I think

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they call it like the girl Guides. But you know,

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so she was, uh, she was kind of like one

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of these. She was kind of just like rich kid aristocrat,

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you know, and like aristocrats do, like you know, she

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she was all about national service. When the Great War came,

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but then she developed a hero worship. But Mussolini, which

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for context, you know, really up through the Four Powers Packed,

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you know, really until the late nineteen thirties, like Mussolini

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was viewed as like this kind of heroic personage in

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the UK, and it's considered this kind of like moderating

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influence contra Germany, you know who really after after Disraeli's tenure,

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you know, like we got into in our World War

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two series. You know, the Germans were cast as in

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the most like in the blackest colors imaginable, but Mussolini

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wasn't colored the same way in British media quite the contrary,

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and the people like wrote the Ormond, they they basically

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admired Mussolini for his anti communism, like she was not

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a sophisticated in any sense, you know, which seems in

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congruous maybe, but there's something to the cliche of uh,

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you know, it's almost like money python like like these

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British aristocrats who actually aren't cultured and aren't educated. That's

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not just like a trophe or it's not just something

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that you know, the middle classes like to kind of

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hold out is as as some it's there's some kind

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of you know, slam on on people who they resent

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for for posturing as their betters. You know. The she

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was not. She was not an educated nor intelligent person

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in real sense. And so like her her like fascist outfit,

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it was basically just like this kind of like Tory.

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It was basically like this Mussolini fan club of like

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aristocratic Tories, you know, and uh, she literally established this

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British fascist outfit. She placed an ad in uh, what

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was then kind of like the dominant like right wing

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alternative paper in the UK you just called The Patriot,

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you know. She said she was like looking for anti

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communist partisans who wanted to you know, basically basically constituted

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a pressure group you know, to force a more serious

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uh posture against the Soviet Union, which uh in early

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on that was like a big rallying point of the

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Tories is that like, well, you know, labor is gonna

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they're they're they're too soft on Sovietism and this is

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like a fifth column and in the empire and you know,

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all this all this kind of stuff. So that was

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later on, and we're talking like much later, you know,

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like a decade subsequent the uh, most of them male

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membership of the British Fascists defected the b u F.

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But by that point the organization miss Ormond's organization was

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kind of like existed in name only but just for

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context they I think it's relevant the uh and famously

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UH mostly said UH mostly referred early on to the

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British Fascist just quote three old ladies and a couple

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of office boys and uh, which wasn't the really inaccurate

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the success of organize not It wasn't a successful organization.

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I don't mean like linear, I mean in linear terms.

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I don't mean that it was. It came from the

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same ideological persuasion or head membership in common. The The

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kind of subsequent iteration of a national socialist or fascist

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tendency in the UK was the Imperial Fascist League. It

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was found y Arnold Leise in nineteen twenty nine. People

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are familiar with like our lineage, our lineage being people

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of the right. They probably know LEAs because like it's

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an elderly guy like in the fifties, and he made

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a habit of slandering Francis Perker Yaki in right wing

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press despite having never met it. Mean, by that point

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least was a total nobody. And Yaki famously he used

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to go on claiming that like Yaqui was Jewish, and

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then he claimed that Yaqui was part black. Then he

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claimed that he was an Indian, like an American Indian,

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and Jaki fantasy said, like, I don't know who this

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camel doctor is. What's his name? Laus? And Lee's literally

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was a camel doctor, like he was a veterinarian and

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his specialty was diseases afflicting camels, like I'm not kidding,

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And his claim to fame was that he'd met Julius

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Striker during somem Lark to Germany, and Striker was a

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crude guy with Striker also was like a cutting satirist

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and like a skilled artist and just like a tough bastard,

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even though he was something of a vulgarian and a

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dummy otherwise, like Lee said, none of those skills, and

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he had none of the insight, like he was just

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a fucking idiot, you know. So Lisa's old thing was, well,

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00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,640
because I know how camels breed, and I know how

237
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you know it's are in heritable, you know, in camel populations,

238
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,960
But to extrapolate like zoological principles like human populations. So

239
00:18:09,319 --> 00:18:12,640
the Jews are just like evil race, you know, and

240
00:18:13,599 --> 00:18:19,079
they have you know, bad racial characteristics, and you know,

241
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,480
we need to breed the right kind of race, you know,

242
00:18:22,599 --> 00:18:30,599
just like abject, abject, objectly moronic bullshit, you know, reducing

243
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:37,279
politics to the principles of animal husbandry. Well, the Imperial

244
00:18:37,279 --> 00:18:39,960
fans this league, they're like lasting legacy. They had an

245
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,720
incredibly dope like heraldic standard. It was like the Union

246
00:18:43,839 --> 00:18:47,000
Jack with like hack and crews like in the center

247
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,440
in black. It like looks incredibly cool. But other than

248
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:57,079
that it was, uh, it was like an embarrassment. The

249
00:18:57,079 --> 00:19:04,119
b UF famously. Uh they shut them down through a

250
00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:08,000
lot of ledgered Man and through direct action. And one

251
00:19:08,039 --> 00:19:11,640
of the things Moseley did, Uh Mosley hit a very

252
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:17,400
gangsterous streak. You have black shirts, they dress up as communists,

253
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,039
and then when the Imperial Fascist League a hold meetings,

254
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,640
they'd assault and like beat the fuck out of everybody

255
00:19:24,079 --> 00:19:25,640
and then like LEAs to gir On saying like this

256
00:19:25,799 --> 00:19:28,200
was Mosey and like mostly be like what are you

257
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,680
an insane person? You got you got moved on by

258
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,359
the Reds. You gotta you gotta you know, provide better

259
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,359
security for yourself. What's the matter with you? What kind

260
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:40,920
of outfit are you? Which is kind of brilliant and

261
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:47,839
it's uh in in in and it's gaslighting. But that

262
00:19:48,039 --> 00:19:54,839
was that was UH. The Imperial Fascist League had like

263
00:19:54,880 --> 00:20:00,319
an outsized profile, in no small part because p like

264
00:20:00,319 --> 00:20:04,039
the Board of Jewish Deputies and and and some of

265
00:20:04,079 --> 00:20:10,039
these left wing UH newspaper types. You know, they'd say

266
00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,440
they they'd hold them out as an example, I mean,

267
00:20:12,519 --> 00:20:14,039
very much like today, you know, they hold them out.

268
00:20:14,079 --> 00:20:16,640
Was like, Oh, we're being subverted from abroad. You know,

269
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,119
this is this is this is the Germans, this is

270
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,400
the Hunts trying to you know, undermine and meddle in

271
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:30,720
our in our affairs. You know, the UH during a

272
00:20:30,799 --> 00:20:37,240
moment of UH, I guess amicability in nineteen thirty two

273
00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:39,759
when the BUF and we haven't gotten there yet, but

274
00:20:39,799 --> 00:20:45,759
we will in a minute, when the BUF was very

275
00:20:45,839 --> 00:20:51,759
much ascendant, they'd UH made something of a peace offering

276
00:20:51,799 --> 00:20:57,240
to the Imperial Fascist League by like allowing their members

277
00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:02,000
essentially patch over you know, the appeal Fascist League like

278
00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,839
turn this down. And so Moseley returned to like having

279
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,559
his people's like like smash them, you know, like it

280
00:21:09,599 --> 00:21:17,200
was Lee's then and later in his later in his life.

281
00:21:17,279 --> 00:21:20,200
And I'm not going to dignify it by calling it

282
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,319
a courier, but he as this typical of today with

283
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,519
like right wing schismatics. He like delusions of his own significance.

284
00:21:28,079 --> 00:21:30,160
You know, It's like this guy had a couple hundred

285
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,960
members like the b U f Atars tens of thousand strong,

286
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:39,200
you know, like Moseley in a moment of you know again,

287
00:21:39,319 --> 00:21:48,200
like in in a moment of charitable impulse, like offered him,

288
00:21:48,559 --> 00:21:51,920
you know, uh, a chance that it kind of cloud

289
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,319
and respectability, and of course, like what would he do,

290
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,920
like Lee's turns it down owing to some delusion that

291
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,119
you know, he was actually a relevant person. Just but

292
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,720
but lease, like I said, the reason why like he

293
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:09,160
uh when when Yaqui went to Europe, you know, and

294
00:22:09,559 --> 00:22:13,160
Yaki famously approached Mosley himself and they they didn't get

295
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:17,519
along at all, and and mostly very much was a

296
00:22:17,559 --> 00:22:21,240
cold warrior by that point, And I think there was

297
00:22:21,279 --> 00:22:25,680
some degree of jealousy and of Yaki and his intellect,

298
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,039
but also resentment at the fact that you know, we think,

299
00:22:28,079 --> 00:22:31,519
who the hell is American trying to dictate, you know,

300
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,480
the European scene, how how we should do things and

301
00:22:35,519 --> 00:22:41,200
conceptualize you know, theory and and policy and praxis. But

302
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,359
you know, lese uh Lease was still kind of like

303
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,960
floating around the fringes of of the you know, of

304
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:58,640
of the right wing resistance. You know, because even even then,

305
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,960
you know, like uh, some of these marginal figures could

306
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,480
kind of carve out some sort of niche and that's

307
00:23:05,519 --> 00:23:19,680
exactly what he did. But getting the Mosely the kind

308
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,720
of the fortunes of the Moseley family, it began with

309
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:31,160
Nicholas Mosey. Really he was born in or near Manchester,

310
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:37,680
that's not clear, but Manchester became the like the ancestral

311
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:43,720
home of the Mosleys, like when they when they acquired

312
00:23:43,759 --> 00:23:52,519
their their aristocratic cedigree. O' getting too how that developed

313
00:23:52,559 --> 00:23:55,200
in a moment. But Nicholas Moseley was born on fifteen

314
00:23:55,279 --> 00:24:06,279
twenty seven, and uh for a brief period he was

315
00:24:06,319 --> 00:24:11,359
a Lord Mayor of London, which is different than the

316
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,839
Mayor of London. Like the Lord Mayor, it still exists,

317
00:24:15,519 --> 00:24:21,759
although now it's large like a ceremonial office. The Lord

318
00:24:21,799 --> 00:24:24,480
Mayor of the City of London is like the administrator

319
00:24:24,599 --> 00:24:28,480
like of you know what's now the financial district of

320
00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:31,839
you know, the city of London. In those days, it

321
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:42,839
had a directly military obligation and Nicholas Moseley h during

322
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:57,680
that time, Britain's main adversary was Spain, and this was

323
00:24:57,759 --> 00:25:01,160
kind of the beginning of the Mosely Fan Emily's involvement

324
00:25:02,839 --> 00:25:09,720
with the affairs revolving around the security of the British Isles,

325
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,640
and this endured for centuries and in eighteen one of

326
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,759
the reasons why the left hated Oswald Mosey so much

327
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,119
during eighteenth during the Chartist riots in eighteen forty eight,

328
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:31,359
his great grandfather and his great grandfather's brother, they'd organized

329
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:38,559
the these strike breaking attacks like on the Chartists and

330
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,759
on like the eighteen forty eight revolutionaries, you know, like

331
00:25:41,799 --> 00:25:46,720
the Mosey family. They like literally like way went back

332
00:25:46,799 --> 00:25:51,000
centuries of them like crushing like left wing radicals. You know,

333
00:25:51,039 --> 00:25:54,960
it's became like their role, you know, and that started

334
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,640
really with Nicholas Mosey's role as Lord Mayor, you know.

335
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,559
And again in those days, this wasn't just a ceremonial

336
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,279
office Lord Mayor of London, you know, he based he

337
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:13,839
was responsible for planning and organizing you know, what amount

338
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,640
of like a civil defense a civil defense schema in

339
00:26:17,759 --> 00:26:27,920
anticipation of you know, possible like invasion from the continet. Okay,

340
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:35,960
the Moseleys became very very rich. Manchester was a center

341
00:26:36,079 --> 00:26:45,079
of uh the world trade and manufacture. Nicholas Moseley became

342
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,799
a very wealthy merchant, and UH he became a member

343
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,079
of the Worshipful Company of Cloth Workers, which was basically

344
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:59,599
like a guild and like a corporatist UH firm that

345
00:26:59,759 --> 00:27:08,400
UH set prices and established standards for the industry. You know.

346
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:13,240
So he was very much like like he was very

347
00:27:13,319 --> 00:27:20,000
much like a self made capitalist, Okay. And what he

348
00:27:20,079 --> 00:27:23,480
did with some of that money is for thirty five

349
00:27:23,559 --> 00:27:31,079
hundred pounds in fifteen ninety six he purchased a lordship

350
00:27:32,079 --> 00:27:38,440
and scenery of Manchester. And this was easy to come

351
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,640
by if he greased the right poems because Manchester it

352
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,160
was basically an unimportant market town. I mean it was

353
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,000
important became important economically because I'm monopoly on the wool trade,

354
00:27:49,559 --> 00:27:52,640
but in terms of the way aristocrats and this was

355
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:58,039
still this was before the reform acts that you know,

356
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,119
kind of transformed the House of Commons into like a

357
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:06,559
normal parliament like in those days. This was the this

358
00:28:06,759 --> 00:28:08,759
was these are the days where you still had like

359
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,279
you had like literally empty burrows where like you know,

360
00:28:13,559 --> 00:28:17,359
some aristocrat like you know, dating back to like the

361
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,119
eleven hundreds or something like, he was able to monopolize,

362
00:28:21,319 --> 00:28:23,240
you know, an entire voting block and the House of

363
00:28:23,279 --> 00:28:26,079
Commons you know, like based on some like ancient charter

364
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,720
of some like then worthless land. So I mean there

365
00:28:29,759 --> 00:28:36,359
was no relationship between you know, the the productivity of

366
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,119
of a territory and its representation in Parliament. So if

367
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,359
a guy like Nicholas Mosley, who's like just like some

368
00:28:42,519 --> 00:28:44,359
rich guy, is like, yeah, I want to buy like

369
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,880
a lordship in Manchester, like a house, the lord to

370
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,720
be like go ahead, you know, like whatever turns you want,

371
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:58,119
you know. Butlins movie was smart a lot of the things,

372
00:28:58,319 --> 00:29:01,039
like with this great wealthy to accumulated. Not only did

373
00:29:01,079 --> 00:29:06,160
he like basically buy himself into a lordship, he hired

374
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:13,039
Intego Jones, who was at the time like the top

375
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:18,359
architect in England, and uh he hired him to build

376
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,519
and design and build his is a manor house which

377
00:29:21,559 --> 00:29:24,119
is hawk End Hall. Okay, now I think it's an

378
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,440
art museum. It still exists, Okay, but that was like

379
00:29:27,839 --> 00:29:34,119
that was like Mosley Manner essentially Intego Jones. He was

380
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,720
the first. Uh he was. He wasn't just like this

381
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,000
the top architect in England, but he was the first.

382
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,559
He was the first architect of the modern era to

383
00:29:44,799 --> 00:29:51,440
like employ uh the conventions of Classical Roman and Italian

384
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:57,440
Renaissance architecture like in Britain. You know, since it was

385
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:02,240
a big deal and it was no small matter to

386
00:30:02,279 --> 00:30:05,039
like have him design your manor house, you know, like

387
00:30:05,039 --> 00:30:13,519
this this conferred a lot of clout for context. The uh.

388
00:30:14,279 --> 00:30:17,519
The Queen's House, well, you see one of the royal residences.

389
00:30:17,559 --> 00:30:22,279
It's in Greenwich, London. It's been repurposed a bunch of times,

390
00:30:22,319 --> 00:30:24,640
and it's obviously historic building and like it's it's no

391
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,720
longer like a royal residence, but at the time it was,

392
00:30:27,759 --> 00:30:30,799
and he designed that, Okay, So I mean this was

393
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:40,599
this is a big deal. The uh. He also he'd

394
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,880
been involved in like designing stuff for the stage, and

395
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:51,799
he was buddied with Ben Jonson and Johnson was uh.

396
00:30:52,119 --> 00:30:56,160
He's considered basically the most significant playwright other than Shakespeare

397
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,319
probably his most notable war are every Man in his

398
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:10,400
humor the alchemist Bartholomew Bartholomew Fair. So you know this,

399
00:31:10,519 --> 00:31:13,160
this is a kind of company that Nicholas Moseley was keeping,

400
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:20,839
you know, and not I mean very deliberately too. Like

401
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,720
when Nicholas Mosey got married, he got married in the

402
00:31:24,759 --> 00:31:28,079
City of London. You know, he was obviously trying to

403
00:31:28,119 --> 00:31:36,920
like establish some kind of you know, familial presence there.

404
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,759
It didn't take because the Moles ended up basically after

405
00:31:41,839 --> 00:31:46,200
his sinecure, like the Moses were once again like relegated

406
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:53,039
in Manchester. But you know, the aside, like their great wealth,

407
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,640
the family managed to kind of skate and the cloud

408
00:31:58,759 --> 00:32:04,240
captured by the you know, the great patriarch Nicholas for

409
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:14,680
a very long time. The uh and yeah he uh.

410
00:32:15,359 --> 00:32:20,119
Owing to his uh service as Lord Mayor, he was

411
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:29,119
knighted by Queen Elizabeth the First and subsequent to his

412
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:35,559
knighthood he was the High Sheriff of Lancashire. So he

413
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:40,000
was an accomplished guy. And there's a significant too, because

414
00:32:40,039 --> 00:32:43,599
again this dude was an upstart capitalist, you know, he

415
00:32:43,759 --> 00:32:46,640
wasn't really a noble and like that didn't really happen

416
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,559
in those days. You know, he was one of the

417
00:32:48,599 --> 00:32:56,519
first to essentially like make that jump. So again when

418
00:32:56,559 --> 00:33:01,160
you read uh, when he when he read some of

419
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:08,160
these like left wing histories that deal with Mosley produced

420
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,279
in the UK, I mean like they talk about him

421
00:33:11,319 --> 00:33:14,720
like he's basically some like lesser version of King Charles

422
00:33:14,799 --> 00:33:17,799
or something. Who oh, he became a fascist because he

423
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,440
lost his noble type. That like that's nonsense, Like it's

424
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,599
not what he was at all. And frankly it's a

425
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,119
man like that, like such as the caricature is painted,

426
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,799
like wouldn't have been attracted to fascism in the first place.

427
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,240
I don't think like it wouldn't it wouldn't track with anything.

428
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:46,480
But uh, the uh, like I mentioned uh a minute ago,

429
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:54,680
the the the Chartist and the Peterloo massac the Chartist Rise,

430
00:33:54,759 --> 00:33:59,440
the Peterloo massacre, these were and aren't gonna held outs

431
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,880
like the great sins like the Moseley family, the Peuli massacre.

432
00:34:06,759 --> 00:34:15,960
On August sixteenth, eighteen nineteen, there was a this mass demonstration, uh,

433
00:34:16,199 --> 00:34:20,760
demanding parliamentary representation. Okay, it was basically a precursor to

434
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:24,280
like the Chartist movement, that kind of peaked in eighteen thirties,

435
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:29,519
and it's and it's kind of final. It's kind of final.

436
00:34:30,119 --> 00:34:35,440
Zenith was eighteen forty eight. But there's this crowd of

437
00:34:35,599 --> 00:34:42,039
UH like tens of thousands of people. Obviously the UH,

438
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,599
the crown was terrified to some kind of some kind

439
00:34:46,599 --> 00:34:54,199
of Jacob and style revolt. Cavalry assembled as well as UH,

440
00:34:55,599 --> 00:35:09,719
you know, chartered men under arms. This armed element assaulted

441
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,559
the crowd, including like a calvary charge like dead into

442
00:35:13,559 --> 00:35:18,360
the center of it. A couple of dozen people died,

443
00:35:19,159 --> 00:35:28,239
several hundred were injured. The Moseley family played a direct

444
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:38,159
role in organizing the forces that suppressed this mass protest

445
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:44,960
and even into the UH, like, even into the late

446
00:35:45,079 --> 00:35:51,639
nineteen fifties when Moseley was staging his comeback. You know,

447
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,480
this was UH Moss mostly is the descendant of you know,

448
00:35:55,559 --> 00:36:00,960
the brutes of the Peter Low massacre. It's it's really strange,

449
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,199
but that's UH, I mean that that's that's kind of

450
00:36:05,199 --> 00:36:18,400
the way the UK is. The UH. The Mosleys started

451
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:25,800
to lose, interestingly, they started to lose their UH influence

452
00:36:28,679 --> 00:36:41,400
in Manchester after the UH, after the reform of Parliament

453
00:36:44,159 --> 00:36:49,880
really from like eighteen thirty two to like the eighteen fifties.

454
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:59,639
You know, the Moseley family was in a strange positions

455
00:36:59,639 --> 00:37:04,239
and the one hand they made their fortune through industry,

456
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:13,639
but uh, they purchased noble title. So in Manchester, local

457
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,199
merchants and industrialists they had to pay what was called

458
00:37:17,199 --> 00:37:20,039
the tolladge to the Mosley estate and a kind of

459
00:37:20,119 --> 00:37:25,320
tax not just on goods enter the municipality, but if

460
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,320
you want to make use of a stall or a

461
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,280
market space like you you you had you would literally

462
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,639
like pay rent to the House of Mosley, you know.

463
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:45,079
Leading the charge against this system were with a contingent

464
00:37:45,119 --> 00:37:52,159
of Jewish merchants in Manchester. Mosley's grandfather very much. This

465
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:57,880
kind of like very very hostile situation developed between like

466
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,519
the House of and the Manchester Jewish community, which is

467
00:38:03,559 --> 00:38:11,639
really interesting, you know, and that that that endured, you

468
00:38:11,679 --> 00:38:16,280
know it uh and because the Moslees weren't and when

469
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:20,840
they appealed to when they when they appealed to the

470
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:28,280
House of Lords. You know again until uh, until the

471
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,559
mid nineteenth century, Manchester didn't even have representation in the

472
00:38:31,559 --> 00:38:36,280
House of Commons. And then after it did, you know,

473
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,800
basically like the true aristocracy. Their their view was like

474
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,039
we don't care about you, Like what what is the Manchester?

475
00:38:42,119 --> 00:38:46,840
Who are the Mosleys? You know, so they couldn't count

476
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:56,119
any support from London. Their fellow industrialists resented them because

477
00:38:56,159 --> 00:38:59,519
to them locally they were like this aristocratic clan that

478
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:04,960
tacked people. So the Mosleys basically their allies became the

479
00:39:05,079 --> 00:39:09,760
Church of England and like the local military contingent. Yeah,

480
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,280
which again completely tracks with how you know Oswald Mosley

481
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:20,679
viewed the world. You know, this is like a constantly

482
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,360
like middle class problem. You know, it doesn't matter that

483
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,400
there's like a kind of the near of like nobility

484
00:39:27,559 --> 00:39:30,679
like hung on it, you know. And uh, I'm not

485
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:36,639
somebody who resourced the class analyses to describe fascism, but uh,

486
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,079
there is an aspect of that, you know, particularly in

487
00:39:41,119 --> 00:39:45,119
a place like England, you know, that can't be denied.

488
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,519
So it's kind of like this perfect storm of shit,

489
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:56,519
you know, kind of like conspiring to design like how

490
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,880
the life of Oswald Mosey would develop, you know, particularly

491
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,440
when you consider that you know he was born uh

492
00:40:03,679 --> 00:40:06,920
he was of the Lost generation who fought World War One.

493
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:14,039
You know, he he didn't live in in in real

494
00:40:14,119 --> 00:40:17,840
poverty in the Inner War years. But he wasn't exactly

495
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,679
well off. He was like suffering like everybody else was.

496
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:27,480
You know. His family quite literally like had like this

497
00:40:27,599 --> 00:40:31,800
running vendetta and vice versa with like the local Jewish community.

498
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:40,199
I mean it's it's like multiple like faded like take

499
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:44,320
the path that he did, you know. And there's something

500
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:52,159
I uh and the big fan to see Us Lewis,

501
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,639
Like I'm not into like total kind and stuff like that,

502
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:57,599
Like I like Somerset mom, and I like see Us

503
00:40:57,679 --> 00:41:00,599
Lewis and not to go too of train, but something

504
00:41:00,679 --> 00:41:06,199
both of them write about, you know, reading between the lines.

505
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:13,119
It's about how like if you're English, like specifically English,

506
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,360
you know like these these kinds of like liminal and uh,

507
00:41:19,039 --> 00:41:22,599
historical phenomena like dictate your life and like you can't

508
00:41:22,639 --> 00:41:25,639
like escape from it. And I think that's really true,

509
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:28,840
you know, like it's not really like that in America.

510
00:41:29,519 --> 00:41:33,679
I mean yeah, like you can't like familiar tragedies of

511
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:38,599
a way of like reaching out across generations and the

512
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,440
past is the way of insinuating itself into the present,

513
00:41:42,079 --> 00:41:44,559
like especially if you're from like a prestigious family. But

514
00:41:44,559 --> 00:41:49,000
it's not quite the same, you know, like in like

515
00:41:49,039 --> 00:41:54,280
in England. So like the whole issue with Mosley and uh,

516
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:58,960
going back literally centuries, his family's reputation as kind of

517
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,159
like enforcers of the ancient regime, like people in the

518
00:42:02,199 --> 00:42:05,039
twentieth century. To them, that might have been yesterday, and

519
00:42:05,079 --> 00:42:07,280
they're like, you know, look at this son of a bitch.

520
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,079
He's you know, he's he's he's responsible for the purely

521
00:42:10,159 --> 00:42:13,760
massacre those two centuries ago. It doesn't matter only it

522
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,199
might have a little been yesterday. And other societies, even

523
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,960
you know, even even other like ancient European culture is

524
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:26,239
like they're not like that. You know, there's something there's

525
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:33,320
something peculiar about England and that that that really can't

526
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:41,840
be denied, you know, I don't think, but that uh

527
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:48,559
mostly was uh you know, and so this was they

528
00:42:49,039 --> 00:42:55,400
like the family kind of became this uh, they came

529
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:59,079
very committed to kind of like traditional like English sensibilities,

530
00:42:59,159 --> 00:43:08,079
you know, like they were cut off like despite despite

531
00:43:08,119 --> 00:43:12,920
being this family that made their fortune an industry, like

532
00:43:13,559 --> 00:43:16,719
they were in this weird like market town, they weren't

533
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:21,960
in like industrial London or something. You know. They and

534
00:43:22,079 --> 00:43:27,280
again like the the true aristocrats at Westminster, like wanted

535
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,760
nothing to do with them. You know, in three hundred

536
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:35,800
years only two Mosleys were elected to Parliament. You know

537
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:41,559
they they didn't contribute anybody from their ranks to academia,

538
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,559
like they weren't any Moseles who were like artists or architects.

539
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:53,199
Like basically they they were a family of uh of soldiers,

540
00:43:53,360 --> 00:44:00,840
of parsons, of you know, businessman, a hustle and we've

541
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,360
been at making money. You know, this very much like

542
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:10,199
the middle class like backbone of England. You know it's

543
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:22,639
uh Moseley himself. That's not good, okay. Mosey was born

544
00:44:22,679 --> 00:44:29,760
in November sixteenth, eighteen ninety six. His mom was twenty

545
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:34,880
one year old Catherine Heathcote, known as Maud. It was

546
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:38,679
a very difficult birth. It was eighteen hours and it

547
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:44,719
almost killed as it almost killed Maud his mother. His

548
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:52,960
dad was Oswald Ernald Moseley. He was basically a functioning alcoholic.

549
00:44:53,079 --> 00:44:56,599
He was a cad He was a gambler, a womanizer.

550
00:44:58,119 --> 00:45:00,199
He was known for having a filthy mouth and in

551
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,519
something of a hooligan like even even in the middle Age,

552
00:45:04,599 --> 00:45:08,920
like he'd get in trouble for brawling and just for

553
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,920
you know, kind of crazy annex you know, that you'd

554
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:20,159
associate with some kind of unhinged frat boy. When Oswald

555
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,760
Mosley was born, his father telegrammed basically everybody he knew,

556
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,800
you know, and you know, he seemed to be incredibly

557
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,920
proud of the fact his wife had borne him his son.

558
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:40,000
And in Maud's diary she expressed with relief, you know

559
00:45:40,079 --> 00:45:42,719
that it was a boy, because obviously the kind of

560
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:46,039
the purpose of the of the pregnancy it was to

561
00:45:46,039 --> 00:45:49,199
produce in error. But other than the fact that Wald

562
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,440
Moseley was happy that he had a son, he's he's

563
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,360
seem basically uninterested in his family, you know. And like

564
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,760
Oswald Moseley later he talked about his family, I mean

565
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,960
not so much an idealized terms, but he'd insisted that

566
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:07,079
he had this like happy home life, which it seemed

567
00:46:07,079 --> 00:46:08,840
to be anything but the case. You know, like he

568
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:13,320
like his mom doted on him by all accounts, but

569
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,880
you know, he had this his parents from this like

570
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,599
loveless marriage. His dad again was like this cattish kind

571
00:46:19,599 --> 00:46:22,280
of mean guy who like didn't really have any interest

572
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:27,400
in his kids, you know it. His father has been

573
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,639
a boxer too like he uh, he was an accomplished

574
00:46:30,679 --> 00:46:37,480
the featherweight boxer, you know, reputation is kind of a bully,

575
00:46:38,039 --> 00:46:43,800
you know, like not not a happy upbring. Mostly he

576
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,800
was known as Tom or Tommy by his whole family,

577
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:57,360
presumably to distinguish himself from his father. Eventually, the uh

578
00:46:57,599 --> 00:47:05,199
the parents separated without uh formula again the formally seeking divorce.

579
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:08,719
And it was understood pretty much by everybody that it

580
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:13,960
was it was Wald Moseley's compulsive promiscuity that led to it.

581
00:47:14,079 --> 00:47:17,920
I guess Wald Molesey, like any recentably attractive woman, like

582
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:19,960
under a certain age, like he tried to nail her,

583
00:47:20,519 --> 00:47:22,599
you know, I mean that uh you know, like I

584
00:47:22,639 --> 00:47:28,239
said it, it seems it seems like a very unhappy

585
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:32,400
uh home. And Oswald Moseley himself, he was something of

586
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:37,639
a compulsive woman ezer too, uh I mental even inherent

587
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:43,519
inherit the sins of the father. Moseley's kids liked him.

588
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,480
Oswald Moseley's kids and and and he seemed to be

589
00:47:47,519 --> 00:47:50,960
like an engaged father. But it unlike his dad. But

590
00:47:51,039 --> 00:47:56,679
he he he had similar problems with you know, improperly

591
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:05,679
you know, pursuing these kinds of extra marital affairs, you know,

592
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:18,519
and this uh, like MOSE's mom, whatever her shortcomings, she

593
00:48:18,639 --> 00:48:21,440
did like live by kind of like the values of

594
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:26,920
the family. Like she was she was very much like

595
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:31,119
a church goer, very much a believer, you know, uh,

596
00:48:32,079 --> 00:48:35,920
very much kind of discussed by the infidelities of her

597
00:48:36,079 --> 00:48:40,280
h of her husband that that had to be a

598
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:44,119
weird environment to grow up in. I mean, frankly, I mean,

599
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:48,199
I mean that that kind of that kind of infidelity

600
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:51,679
is gonna is gonna be hard on kids anyway. But frankly,

601
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:56,119
like most most guys who grew up with with a

602
00:48:56,159 --> 00:48:58,679
father like that, like the mother just kind of tolerates it,

603
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,639
you know, and doesn't really care that much because you know,

604
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:05,239
she's somebody like Lady Bird Johnson was, and it's like,

605
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,519
well that you know, I've got mine, so what do

606
00:49:07,559 --> 00:49:09,320
I care? Like, you know, I got a good life,

607
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:10,920
and I got a I got a husband with a

608
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,960
prestigious role. Like it's got to be very strange to

609
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,679
have a father who's a true cat or a mom

610
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:20,440
who's like, you know, like a church going basically like modest,

611
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:24,519
you know, proper lady like i I'm sure that what

612
00:49:24,639 --> 00:49:36,239
to some Scruy Psychological Vagaries. But where are we at? Yeah,

613
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,400
I really don't like going fifteen minutes, but I'm not

614
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:42,840
feeling great. And before I get into most of these

615
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:44,880
wars service and stuff like, I kind of want to

616
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:46,800
say that for the second episode. Again, I'm sorry to

617
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,199
be abrupt. I'm just I'm not feeling well today.

618
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 1: No problem, not a problem at all. Yeah, let's uh

619
00:49:54,159 --> 00:49:56,199
do some plugs and we'll get out of here.

620
00:49:56,639 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, no again, forgive me man, No problem. Yeah,

621
00:50:00,079 --> 00:50:04,760
I I'm I'm in the process of the recording, uh

622
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,320
content for season three of the Mind Phaser Pod, which

623
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,159
I'm very excited about. I had to postpone a couple

624
00:50:10,159 --> 00:50:13,000
of days because of my hull hasn't been great, but uh,

625
00:50:13,639 --> 00:50:19,199
that's underway this weekend, and you can find the pod

626
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,360
at the sub stack, as well as some of my

627
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:26,559
longer form writing. It's real Thomas seven seven seven dot

628
00:50:26,639 --> 00:50:31,599
subsec dot com. I'm removing season one and two from

629
00:50:31,599 --> 00:50:36,880
behind the paywall, and there's so there's about there's about

630
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:40,079
fifteen episodes of season one and about ten of season

631
00:50:40,119 --> 00:50:42,880
two as of now you can access for free, and

632
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,880
every day or two I'm I'm uploading like five or

633
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:52,360
six episodes from behind the paywall, so be aware of that.

634
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,639
You can find me on social media at Capital R

635
00:50:57,679 --> 00:51:01,280
E A L underscore number seven each one seven seven

636
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:05,719
seven dot com. I've got a website that's kind of

637
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:09,559
a one stop for my content. It's a number seven

638
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:12,480
h O M A S seven seven seven dot com.

639
00:51:13,639 --> 00:51:17,599
And yeah, my instagram on telegram, just seeking you.

640
00:51:17,639 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: She'll find all right, pick it up in a few days.

641
00:51:21,199 --> 00:51:21,719
Thank you.

642
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's great again. I'm sorry than man.

643
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:30,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to welcome everyone back to the Peaking

644
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:34,840
Yana Show. Thomas is back part two of the life

645
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:39,039
and the thought of was it was he sir? Did

646
00:51:39,039 --> 00:51:41,039
he ever become sir Oswald Mosley?

647
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:50,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we'll get in. Yeah, this is his okay

648
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:54,960
because claiming nobility was complicated. We got into some of

649
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,199
that in the first episode. I'll get into that and

650
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:02,719
the conclusion, which, among other things, al hy blue sense

651
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,920
relating to his biographical data.

652
00:52:07,039 --> 00:52:09,559
Speaker 1: So where are we gonna? Where are we jumping off today?

653
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:14,639
Speaker 2: The key to understanding Mosey's political trajectory is World War One.

654
00:52:15,679 --> 00:52:19,039
His experience was more like that of Adolph Hitler than

655
00:52:19,079 --> 00:52:24,360
people will acknowledge. His time under fire was a lot

656
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:34,159
more brief, and unsurprisingly there's this really insipid tendency of

657
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:38,800
English historians to try and throw shade on Moseley's war record,

658
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:48,480
which is ridiculous, you know, But I'll get into. Mosley

659
00:52:48,559 --> 00:52:52,440
witnessed from the air as an aerial observer with the

660
00:52:52,519 --> 00:52:58,800
Royal Flying Corps the first chemical weapons assault of the

661
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:07,559
war at Yprah in nineteen fifteen, and about ten kilometers

662
00:53:07,559 --> 00:53:11,280
from where Moseley was on that day was Adolf Hitler

663
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:16,920
on the ground, you know, with the opposing element, it's fascinating.

664
00:53:17,039 --> 00:53:20,880
But you know, we talked about in the first episode

665
00:53:23,079 --> 00:53:32,719
Moses mostly lineage. The people that they captured as allies

666
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:38,360
over generations tended to be military officers and Church of

667
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:42,000
England clergy people and adjacent elements, you know, which I

668
00:53:42,039 --> 00:53:45,679
made the point that the consummately middle class resume in

669
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:48,400
the in the UK sense, not in the American sense.

670
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:56,880
And Mosley himself, Mosey was mostly self educated, you know,

671
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:59,159
and for an aristocrat, even one who had kind of

672
00:53:59,159 --> 00:54:03,159
an unusual petty agree like he did, that was pretty unusual.

673
00:54:04,079 --> 00:54:08,840
And he essentially educated himself in politics when he was convalescing.

674
00:54:11,119 --> 00:54:16,760
You know, he didn't. He didn't have a discretely identifiable

675
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:30,880
political psychology prior to really the conclusion of the of

676
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:37,599
the Warriors. And why he was this young prodigy of

677
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:44,679
parliamentarian and how he got who encouraged in that direction

678
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:49,599
is interesting because it was one of Churchill's cronies, not

679
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:54,760
because Churchill and the organization around him like looked favorably

680
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:59,639
upon Mosley. It was it very much owed a Machiavelian

681
00:54:59,679 --> 00:55:02,920
policy ticket, and they wanted they wanted him to run

682
00:55:03,599 --> 00:55:09,960
on the Liberal ticket, hoping that the Lib Dems could

683
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:17,960
split what was it burgaining consensus among labor, you know,

684
00:55:18,039 --> 00:55:20,079
And and the Labor Party had a lot of momentum

685
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:23,400
then the immediate aftermath of the Great War. But that's

686
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:28,320
what upset the scope. But we're gonna get into Moses

687
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:38,039
early adolescence in early adulthood here because that's essential and

688
00:55:38,639 --> 00:55:41,599
I think Moses an important personage and should be for anybody.

689
00:55:44,559 --> 00:55:49,920
It's philosophically oriented towards the right, you know, and people

690
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:55,079
should become competent in the biographies of these people and

691
00:55:55,440 --> 00:56:00,559
what sorts of ideological tendencies they represent, and they're the

692
00:56:00,639 --> 00:56:03,679
standard bearers of so I spend more time in that

693
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:08,079
kind of thing than some historians. But uh, you know,

694
00:56:08,199 --> 00:56:11,440
Moseley grew up without a father. Really, his father was

695
00:56:11,559 --> 00:56:15,519
not a good man, and Moseley unfortunately emulated a lot

696
00:56:15,559 --> 00:56:20,000
of his vices. Mosey really liked violence as a young guy,

697
00:56:20,079 --> 00:56:25,320
and he wasnrinated his military education that was very much encouraged,

698
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:30,880
you know, like militarism. It's like the scare word, you know,

699
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:34,880
like militarism, and that if people talk about the culture

700
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:37,039
of the Kaiser right like, oh, it was steeped in

701
00:56:37,079 --> 00:56:40,599
this kind of like toxic militarism. That's the way it

702
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:43,039
was everywhere on the continent as well as the UK,

703
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:47,440
you know. And part of this really, you know, from

704
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:51,039
after Disraeli's tenure onward, a lot of this was kind

705
00:56:51,039 --> 00:56:54,519
of cultivated, like we talked about another series, owing it

706
00:56:54,559 --> 00:56:57,920
part to the udderlessness of the of the empire and

707
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:02,000
the need for kind of a coherent polestar around which

708
00:57:02,039 --> 00:57:07,960
the orient policy. But it's also it's just kind of

709
00:57:08,039 --> 00:57:13,559
like violence at scale and martial impulses were just in

710
00:57:13,679 --> 00:57:16,519
the zeitgeist, you know, and Moses weren't swept up in that,

711
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:19,519
but I think he was probably uniquely susceptible. And I'm

712
00:57:19,559 --> 00:57:23,840
not trying to play you know, dollar store psychologists, but

713
00:57:25,199 --> 00:57:27,880
you know, Mosley's the marriage man. His parents had essentially

714
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:30,840
been breaking down from the time Mosley came out of

715
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:35,119
the shoot. You know, his father was literally absent when

716
00:57:35,159 --> 00:57:38,199
he was born. He sent out a bunch of telegrams,

717
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:43,440
you know, like effusively, you know, gutshing over the fact

718
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:46,920
that his wife had given birth to an airybody. He

719
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:51,119
didn't really have any interest in the actual you know,

720
00:57:51,199 --> 00:57:53,960
an investment required to be a parent, you know, psychically

721
00:57:54,039 --> 00:57:59,920
or emotionally. He was. He was a degenerative womanizer, like gambler, brawler,

722
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:05,719
you know. And by and Moseley's mom, maud, she was

723
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,400
this really stately looking woman. She was about five ten.

724
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:10,039
I mean it was just still like very tall for

725
00:58:10,119 --> 00:58:14,039
a lady. But in those days, you know, that was

726
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:19,599
highly unusual. She was a very pious believer, you know. Uh,

727
00:58:20,679 --> 00:58:26,159
she she took the her faith seriously. You know, she

728
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:30,840
she very much held the family together. And uh, Mosley's grandfather,

729
00:58:31,199 --> 00:58:34,559
his paternal grandfather, was kind of like his surrogate dad.

730
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:42,440
And Walde Mosey's own father like his Waldy's own father

731
00:58:42,719 --> 00:58:45,639
U like like thought very poorly of him and the

732
00:58:45,719 --> 00:58:49,239
way he treated his family. So Mosy's grandfather kind of

733
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:53,320
stepped in, uh as much as he could to be

734
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:55,639
his father figure, you know. And by nineteen oh one,

735
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:04,280
when Moseley himself was fire and Maud was very pregnant

736
00:59:04,679 --> 00:59:11,159
with Moseley's younger brother, Edward, I know Edward was already

737
00:59:11,199 --> 00:59:13,679
born by anteen oh one. Yeah, I think he was

738
00:59:13,719 --> 00:59:17,800
about two years old, so like Toddler Edward who was

739
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:22,360
born in eighteen ninety nine. But uh, Maud finally left,

740
00:59:22,639 --> 00:59:26,840
you know, like enough was enough and the the you know,

741
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:30,880
the gossip in those days around uh a philandering husband,

742
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:35,559
especially for somebody who's you know, admittedly the Moseleys were

743
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:41,880
we're not conventional aristocrats, but they had a enough of

744
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:46,079
a public profile that this was a gross embarrassment, you know,

745
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:54,039
so it uh, you know, Maud separated when when Moseley

746
00:59:54,199 --> 00:59:59,880
was a very small boy, you know, in this uh,

747
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:05,880
even with you know, a maternal influence in his life,

748
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:11,159
like especially that generation and especially considering their station this

749
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:16,280
head have had a profound effect on Mosley and that

750
01:00:18,559 --> 01:00:25,159
I've found in my own life. I mean, this is

751
01:00:25,199 --> 01:00:29,440
anecdotal but I mean all the life is anecdotal. Like

752
01:00:29,599 --> 01:00:33,760
men who developed under similar conditions with an absentee father

753
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:39,360
like that, they tend to be very uncompromising I've noticed, okay,

754
01:00:41,159 --> 01:00:45,199
but uh, you know, Mostly was very devoted to his mom,

755
01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:50,800
but not in like a not not in a contentable way,

756
01:00:51,199 --> 01:00:55,480
but you know, in a way that was probably somewhat

757
01:00:55,559 --> 01:01:03,239
unusual for Anglophone people, like we Anglo Protestant people, you know,

758
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:10,320
Germanic sppecifically, you know, Anglos were a very patriarchal culture,

759
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:15,400
and that's something that I think a lot of people

760
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:18,840
don't really understand from without. And that's one of the

761
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:23,599
reasons for the tenor at discourse, like cultural discourse of

762
01:01:23,679 --> 01:01:30,719
a punitive nature in America. That's so, I mean, Mostly

763
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:33,239
was something of an outlier like I. And why do

764
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:36,440
I emphasize this not just because it's I enjoyed speculating

765
01:01:36,519 --> 01:01:41,000
on people's psychology, Y're not just because it's it's trivia.

766
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:46,480
But Mostly's detractors and even some people should know better.

767
01:01:47,119 --> 01:01:51,280
They cast him as kind of like, oh, he was

768
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:57,159
this lesser aristocrat who, owing to declining fortunes when he

769
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:00,360
reached the age of majority, became a fascist. It's like

770
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:03,360
lazy thinging for all kind of all kinds of reasons.

771
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:07,480
And I don't really think it tracks even with more

772
01:02:07,559 --> 01:02:17,440
traditional personages, but a more conventional personages. But in Mosey's case,

773
01:02:17,519 --> 01:02:20,199
he he was very much an outlier, you know, and

774
01:02:22,199 --> 01:02:28,119
the uh owing to Moses's grandfather being his substitute parent.

775
01:02:28,239 --> 01:02:33,280
Though especially during his like trails and formative years, he

776
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:39,400
was a very uncompromising guy. Morals, tradition, the kind of

777
01:02:39,519 --> 01:02:45,679
martial ethos. You know, you're a you're a nobleman, you

778
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:48,760
know what, however alienated we might be from London and

779
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:51,480
from the house to lords, you're a nobleman. Where the

780
01:02:51,599 --> 01:02:57,360
vanguard we're the ones who you know, quashed the the

781
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:02,000
the worrying class traders and forty eight. You know, we're

782
01:03:02,039 --> 01:03:04,639
the ones who are like the guardians of the race

783
01:03:05,719 --> 01:03:11,880
and the faith of the empire, you know. And that's

784
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:20,000
something mostly internalized very much, you know, and being raised

785
01:03:22,519 --> 01:03:27,360
by grandparents always, especially in the twentieth and twenty first centuries,

786
01:03:28,679 --> 01:03:32,199
when there's you know, generational divisions or a real thing

787
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:37,679
that that'll put you. I think in some ways that

788
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:43,119
puts men like in better stead to understand their historical

789
01:03:43,239 --> 01:03:46,159
situated in this, you know, if they're people who are

790
01:03:46,239 --> 01:03:51,000
thoughtful in that regard. But it also it's it's it's

791
01:03:51,079 --> 01:03:59,079
very much indicates a different formative experience between a child

792
01:03:59,199 --> 01:04:03,599
and their parent figure, particularly their father figure. They're like there,

793
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:05,800
their values are going to be out of step with

794
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:09,760
most of their peers. Okay, And uh, that was very

795
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:14,920
much the case with mostly you know, it wasn't he

796
01:04:15,079 --> 01:04:17,840
was a natural leader and people were attracted to him,

797
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:20,440
but he didn't. He didn't fit in with boys his

798
01:04:20,519 --> 01:04:22,840
own age, even of his own even if who had

799
01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:25,880
class and station in common with him, you know. And

800
01:04:26,119 --> 01:04:28,559
I think all these things kind of conspired for that,

801
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:35,079
you know, in the this kind of atmosphere of uh,

802
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:41,400
this kind of atmosphere of strife within the family, within

803
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:47,760
the paternal lineage, that had to have they had to

804
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:52,920
have brought an intolerance for certain kinds of behaviors and dispositions,

805
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:54,920
and most even I know it did. How could it not.

806
01:04:55,320 --> 01:05:01,760
And despite mostly his own problems with like sexuality and

807
01:05:02,039 --> 01:05:05,199
like womanizing and stuff he had, he had very very

808
01:05:05,239 --> 01:05:07,639
little tolerance for what he perceived his weakness in the

809
01:05:07,719 --> 01:05:11,519
ranks of his own men. Okay, And and in a

810
01:05:11,559 --> 01:05:16,360
way that was above and beyond what a political soldier

811
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:23,159
should you know, adopt as as a as a standing doctrine.

812
01:05:28,119 --> 01:05:36,639
Mostly he uh, he attended what was considered then about

813
01:05:36,719 --> 01:05:43,559
the best English prep school, West Downs. It was run

814
01:05:43,639 --> 01:05:47,360
by a guy named Lionel Helbert. I mean that's that's

815
01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:50,320
not like a schoolmaster name, like I don't know, I

816
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:55,679
don't know what is. But he he was at West

817
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:57,960
Downs with the Sun, the Scions and a bunch of

818
01:05:58,039 --> 01:06:03,199
military families. Uh. One of his classmates was John Sinclair,

819
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:09,199
who went on to be the chief at I six Mosy.

820
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:14,400
Was remembered by people his classmates, including Sinclair, as being

821
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:17,880
incredibly bright. But you know, I had basically know in

822
01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:25,119
for some schoolwork, you know. He uh, he was interested

823
01:06:25,159 --> 01:06:28,440
in his own kind of fascinations again like very much

824
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:34,159
that get off Hitler, you know, who also had uh

825
01:06:35,039 --> 01:06:41,280
an incredibly contentious relationship with his father, who is a

826
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:45,199
real bully, you know in the pure sense. And of

827
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:50,840
course Hitler uh the parish priest and uh one of

828
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:55,559
his history teachers at his elementary school kind of took

829
01:06:55,639 --> 01:06:57,519
him under their wing, as you know, his kind of

830
01:06:57,559 --> 01:07:02,960
stand in eternal figures. But them you know what. An

831
01:07:03,039 --> 01:07:09,400
early indicator of Mosley's trajectory was he the estab's reputation

832
01:07:09,599 --> 01:07:13,760
as being about the best debater in the school, you know,

833
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:21,599
and he he could basically wrongfoot anybody in uh these

834
01:07:21,679 --> 01:07:26,119
kinds of discursive exercises and make them look stupid, you know.

835
01:07:26,159 --> 01:07:29,440
And in the UK, the reason why question time remains

836
01:07:29,519 --> 01:07:32,840
a thing, even as deteriorated as the culture is across

837
01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:38,719
the pond, is UH being competent in in in letters

838
01:07:39,039 --> 01:07:43,159
and being competent in that kind of you know, combat

839
01:07:43,199 --> 01:07:47,679
of verbal advocacy. I mean, that's that's something like every

840
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:51,519
every Englishman of of any station is supposed to accel at,

841
01:07:52,559 --> 01:07:56,360
you know, and UH mostly was second to none. I've

842
01:07:56,440 --> 01:08:00,800
told people that they should watch there's a lot of Moseley,

843
01:08:01,039 --> 01:08:03,599
and a lot of it's been restored and it's pretty

844
01:08:03,639 --> 01:08:10,480
easy to find, Unlike unlike some uh unlike some footage

845
01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:12,880
from the era, and unlike you know, a lot of

846
01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:17,800
footage that's you know, owing to the kind of hegemony

847
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:21,600
of the cloud of proverbially speaking, you know, a lot

848
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:25,439
of this stuff is kind of being censored and just

849
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:28,319
by being like redacted. But there's there remains this day

850
01:08:28,359 --> 01:08:33,079
a lot of Moseley's stuff, and you know, Mosley he was, Uh,

851
01:08:34,199 --> 01:08:37,760
I think he was about out of the entire coterie

852
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:41,479
of of kind of of radicals, you know, both on

853
01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:43,920
the right and the left. I think he was about

854
01:08:44,199 --> 01:08:53,039
the best public speaker that includes that OFLF Hitler. I

855
01:08:53,119 --> 01:08:58,720
mean Hitler's uh, Hitler's energy and is like messianic, uh

856
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:06,880
sort of mystique gave Hitler kind of gravitas that mostly

857
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:09,640
didn't have what you're talking about in terms of like

858
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:12,119
pure command of the language and a man who's kind

859
01:09:12,159 --> 01:09:15,880
of like a pure politician and kind of like the

860
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:18,600
great or Roman sense, you know, I don't I don't

861
01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:24,000
mean in the pejorative sense. You know that that's mostly

862
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:30,600
you know, and there's a there's a profundity and an

863
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:34,560
exciting energy to mostly speeches that don't resort to like

864
01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:37,600
idiotic soaring language and a lot of these things that

865
01:09:39,279 --> 01:09:41,000
everything else. I mean, it's not of the fact that

866
01:09:41,119 --> 01:09:44,399
stuff comes off as stupid and puerile. It's just it's

867
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:47,079
just not suited to the English languages, doesn't suited to that,

868
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:53,039
you know. And mostly some mostly speeches are better than others,

869
01:09:53,159 --> 01:10:00,039
but none are are subpart you know, so I I

870
01:10:00,159 --> 01:10:09,159
strongly suggests people taking as much of that as they can. Helbert,

871
01:10:09,359 --> 01:10:18,880
the headmaster, he was very much he very much sought

872
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:23,359
to inundate the the student body with a kind of

873
01:10:23,399 --> 01:10:27,279
strong communitarian tradition, and he like bordered on like blood

874
01:10:27,319 --> 01:10:35,479
and soil kind of stuff, you know. Ralph Gardiner, who

875
01:10:37,319 --> 01:10:41,680
later became an like an English National Socialist, he recalled

876
01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:45,680
that Helbert was like a hero to him and a

877
01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:48,439
lot of the boys at the school, you know. And

878
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:51,800
he he without directly saying it, it was clear he

879
01:10:51,920 --> 01:10:56,560
was kind of suggesting that Helbert very much kind of

880
01:10:57,600 --> 01:11:00,840
inundated the boys with the values that later, you know,

881
01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:06,560
made himself a national socialist. He said, Helbert wanted every

882
01:11:07,880 --> 01:11:13,840
he felt that every man and woman, you know, had

883
01:11:13,880 --> 01:11:18,279
to abide what was their own peculiar destiny according to

884
01:11:18,319 --> 01:11:20,960
the laws of you know, not just character and spirit,

885
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:24,039
you know, about according to their you know, kind of

886
01:11:24,119 --> 01:11:30,479
like racial destinyan things and historical situated in this, you know.

887
01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:35,920
And he he tried to he tried to inundate the

888
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:39,000
boys with a kind of like patriotic fervor, you know,

889
01:11:39,159 --> 01:11:42,279
but not in some superficial way, you know. It was

890
01:11:42,399 --> 01:11:45,880
bound up with being an Englishman, being of a certain

891
01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:50,840
class and station, having certain responsibilities, you know, viewing yourself

892
01:11:51,079 --> 01:11:54,439
and like your races as you know the best, but

893
01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:58,920
also that containing certain moral obligations to other people, you know,

894
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:04,119
within you know, the folk community, but also just in

895
01:12:04,199 --> 01:12:11,520
generally you know, uh a kind of noblest age for

896
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:21,279
for a population providing over an empire, you know. And

897
01:12:21,560 --> 01:12:25,520
uh Molesey later in life he mostly was like a

898
01:12:25,640 --> 01:12:30,159
huge prankster, like he do mean spirited stuff to his ops,

899
01:12:30,279 --> 01:12:32,720
but like to his friends and comrades and the men

900
01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:35,960
under his command, you know. He one of the reasons

901
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:38,760
people liked him is because like he'd break up uh

902
01:12:39,600 --> 01:12:43,680
somber moments by doing like funny ship. And apparently that

903
01:12:43,800 --> 01:12:46,479
was like Headmaster Helbert. Apparently that was like something that

904
01:12:47,279 --> 01:12:51,239
according to a gardener like that that was something that

905
01:12:51,319 --> 01:12:54,319
Mosley had gotten from him, you know, which I find

906
01:12:54,359 --> 01:12:56,880
that gotta thing interesting that just because it's humanizing, but

907
01:12:57,000 --> 01:12:59,800
that that tells you something about the person, like stuff

908
01:13:00,079 --> 01:13:03,199
uh like a great man's sense of humor, like what

909
01:13:03,359 --> 01:13:05,520
kind of women he liked? Like that's it's it's not

910
01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:08,800
just trivia, you know, I mean I realized I probably

911
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:12,439
got a a stronger fascination with this than people who

912
01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:17,319
are engaged in you know, kind of like an obsessive,

913
01:13:17,439 --> 01:13:23,520
obsessive study of history. But I maintain it's important. Mostly

914
01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:34,680
secondary school Uh was a Winchester It'd have been founded

915
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:38,960
uh initially as a monastic institution in the fourteenth century.

916
01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:47,479
It uh by the twentieth century particularly, you know, this

917
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:49,920
was kind of the this kind of the peak of

918
01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:53,720
the progressive era, like a tail end in the UK

919
01:13:56,159 --> 01:13:58,960
like public secondary school, and it be kind of coomes

920
01:13:58,960 --> 01:14:02,359
this like revered idea, you know. And it was part

921
01:14:02,399 --> 01:14:10,159
of that was despite uh, you know, from the Disraeli

922
01:14:10,439 --> 01:14:15,000
from Disraeli's tenure on or Disraeli himself wasn't particularly Germanophobic,

923
01:14:15,159 --> 01:14:19,079
but from that period onward, there was this tendency to

924
01:14:19,159 --> 01:14:22,279
talk about you know, the Kaiser right, like it was

925
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:27,119
lacking in every way compared to the UK in cultural terms.

926
01:14:27,399 --> 01:14:31,399
You know, there was a suggestion it was actually culturally impoverished. Well,

927
01:14:31,880 --> 01:14:34,319
I mean that that that that came from a basic

928
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:40,159
a place of basic anxiety, Okay, and like the Bismarckian

929
01:14:40,319 --> 01:14:44,239
like public education system in some ways the British were

930
01:14:44,239 --> 01:14:47,920
trying to emulate that you know, but with but while

931
01:14:47,960 --> 01:14:50,960
insinuating their own kind of like characteristics into it, and

932
01:14:51,439 --> 01:14:57,800
obviously like very much including stuff suggestive of of you know,

933
01:14:57,840 --> 01:15:00,560
what they viewed as their you know, kind of imperial mandate,

934
01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:05,359
which of course, uh you know, had a had a

935
01:15:05,479 --> 01:15:09,239
had a had a providential origin according to the whole

936
01:15:09,560 --> 01:15:16,239
kind of pastiche of influences that made up the late

937
01:15:16,319 --> 01:15:25,439
British Umpires mythologies. But the uh Eton, Harrow and Winchester,

938
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:30,720
they were considered it be like the top like public schools. Okay,

939
01:15:33,479 --> 01:15:42,239
the curriculum was loyalty, honor, chivalry, uh, faith in Christ, patriotism,

940
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:50,199
sportsmanship and competence and physical pursuits and above all, you know,

941
01:15:50,359 --> 01:15:53,920
like leadership, particularly owing to the era with an eye

942
01:15:54,079 --> 01:15:59,359
for military command. You know, because again not only was

943
01:15:59,399 --> 01:16:08,760
this not the exclusive domain of continental and specifically Teutonic people,

944
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:14,600
but this was truly a global phenomenon. Okay, there was uh,

945
01:16:16,039 --> 01:16:20,560
there was war and rumors of war on the mines

946
01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:25,199
and lips of men from east to west and quite

947
01:16:25,279 --> 01:16:37,880
literally in the air. Okay. Mosley also in the fifties,

948
01:16:38,039 --> 01:16:43,119
especially when he was staging his comeback, and he obviously

949
01:16:43,159 --> 01:16:49,000
this was like the nascent era of television and one

950
01:16:49,039 --> 01:16:55,760
of the favorite ways to try and rook then, you know,

951
01:16:56,000 --> 01:17:00,479
elderly Moseley was of these like left wing you knows,

952
01:17:02,319 --> 01:17:06,000
you know, to say like, well, obviously you know at

953
01:17:06,039 --> 01:17:09,079
these at these institutions that you know, we now know

954
01:17:10,800 --> 01:17:14,399
we're inundating people with the wrong ideas. This is where

955
01:17:14,399 --> 01:17:22,640
you learned anti Semitism, you know, and something mostly would

956
01:17:22,640 --> 01:17:28,000
be kind of flippant about it, you know, and he

957
01:17:28,159 --> 01:17:32,039
said one time, well, there's a whimsical brutality in the

958
01:17:32,079 --> 01:17:39,239
English character, you know, ha ha ha, And uh, there's

959
01:17:39,279 --> 01:17:42,039
probably not so different from the way I answer questions

960
01:17:42,079 --> 01:17:46,560
related to the same topic, because it's a stupid question

961
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:51,159
and it's something that no self respecting man like lets

962
01:17:51,239 --> 01:17:58,239
himself be checkmated by. But there wasn't a counterpart of

963
01:17:58,439 --> 01:18:06,279
Julius Striker. There's Thermer type, uh, anti Jewish media or

964
01:18:06,359 --> 01:18:13,560
kind of subcultural sentiment in the UK. But there is

965
01:18:13,680 --> 01:18:21,880
this there's a basic understanding in before uh, you know,

966
01:18:22,079 --> 01:18:27,720
Churchill's tru ascendency that uh, you know, Disraeli was an

967
01:18:27,760 --> 01:18:32,239
outlier like no Jew is truly an Englishman, you know,

968
01:18:34,439 --> 01:18:42,079
and that should be that should be obvious to anybody

969
01:18:42,119 --> 01:18:48,039
who knows the culture. But UH, this idea that Moseley

970
01:18:48,399 --> 01:18:53,319
somehow developed this like unique hostility to Jews and Jewry

971
01:18:53,520 --> 01:19:01,560
doesn't really track and Uh, in fact, Moseley he was

972
01:19:01,680 --> 01:19:04,239
laying ambassed by a lot of people on the right

973
01:19:04,479 --> 01:19:10,960
as being you know, soft on the question you know lately.

974
01:19:11,239 --> 01:19:13,920
When I say lately, I mean past like thirty years. Okay,

975
01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:17,720
I'm coming an historical time, you know how the English

976
01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:19,439
maybe you don't know. I didn't know that until I

977
01:19:19,479 --> 01:19:22,399
went there, like years and years back, speaking of ancient history.

978
01:19:23,199 --> 01:19:25,760
There's these like little circular plaques. They almost look like

979
01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:32,720
plates or something. They're like these like un obtrusive like markers.

980
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:37,600
And in the UK they put him on historical sites,

981
01:19:38,199 --> 01:19:40,119
you know, like I'll be like, oh, this was you know,

982
01:19:40,760 --> 01:19:45,720
Benjamin Disraeli's like childhood school or on this spot, you know,

983
01:19:46,079 --> 01:19:49,800
like this happened. They've got one that I think went

984
01:19:49,920 --> 01:19:54,680
up in the late nineties commemorating the quote Battle of

985
01:19:54,840 --> 01:19:59,720
Cable Street. That was the buf March where they brawled

986
01:19:59,800 --> 01:20:08,000
with uh, a constellation of of enemies including uh, you know,

987
01:20:08,600 --> 01:20:10,840
a mob of uh. I think we were under the

988
01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:14,560
banner of the Jewish War veterans or something, because uh,

989
01:20:15,159 --> 01:20:18,479
that was a traditionally Jewish section of London. And so

990
01:20:18,600 --> 01:20:20,760
this is like held out as you know, all these

991
01:20:21,079 --> 01:20:24,359
Nazi brutes went to like pogram, you know, the Jews

992
01:20:24,399 --> 01:20:26,920
of London. But you know, they got they got fucked.

993
01:20:27,159 --> 01:20:29,680
They were they were beaten back by this kind of

994
01:20:29,800 --> 01:20:32,920
rainbow coalition of of people who realized that's not an

995
01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:36,840
international character. Like that's a weird way to come at

996
01:20:36,920 --> 01:20:39,840
the b UF, because they really weren't like, don't get

997
01:20:39,880 --> 01:20:47,680
me wrong, the b UF absolutely was was you know,

998
01:20:49,239 --> 01:20:52,640
favorable to the German Reich, and and they certainly viewed

999
01:20:54,119 --> 01:20:58,680
they certainly viewed Jews as the enemies of the Empire

1000
01:20:59,520 --> 01:21:02,119
and put a terms like mostly he didn't have some

1001
01:21:02,279 --> 01:21:06,319
like racial eves view of Jews. But like holding Mosey

1002
01:21:06,319 --> 01:21:08,199
in the BUF out is kind of like the mortal

1003
01:21:08,439 --> 01:21:13,199
enemy of English jewelry is kind of strange. But I

1004
01:21:13,399 --> 01:21:17,199
think it owes more to the illiteracy of you know,

1005
01:21:18,079 --> 01:21:23,279
the body politic as well as the you know, I mean,

1006
01:21:23,279 --> 01:21:26,520
the the academ has been nakedly politicized in the UK,

1007
01:21:26,800 --> 01:21:30,479
just like hear, you know, since since the New Deal

1008
01:21:30,880 --> 01:21:33,680
slash Churchill era. But I I think it's also it's

1009
01:21:33,720 --> 01:21:38,279
like a basic ignorance. But you know that uh that

1010
01:21:38,439 --> 01:21:42,840
was forgiving me. That was too tangential. But uh, the

1011
01:21:43,079 --> 01:21:48,039
uh Mosley was very much a Christian uh during this period,

1012
01:21:49,279 --> 01:21:51,800
and this is significant. I'm gonna get into what I

1013
01:21:51,920 --> 01:21:58,800
mean by this in a minute. Mostly, Uh, he became

1014
01:21:58,960 --> 01:22:04,199
very interested in spiritualism and theosophy and even some aerosofty

1015
01:22:04,840 --> 01:22:10,920
when he was convalescing, he he read a lot of

1016
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:15,119
the stuff that came to like inform people like Subvitri

1017
01:22:15,279 --> 01:22:22,600
DeBie later on, and things mostly openly acknowledged that he

1018
01:22:22,720 --> 01:22:28,279
felt caught between like a pious belief and you know, uh,

1019
01:22:29,000 --> 01:22:35,560
the kind of Anglophone interpretation of the faith and legitimate paganism,

1020
01:22:36,880 --> 01:22:42,680
and this kind of like liminal phenomenon in the Carl

1021
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:50,960
Jasper's and Youngie incidents of being caught between historical imperatives

1022
01:22:52,159 --> 01:22:59,680
and the ancient past informing the present in critical ways,

1023
01:23:00,680 --> 01:23:10,279
and this kind of weakening of the barrier of reason

1024
01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:14,920
between what is actual historical memory, what is myth? What

1025
01:23:15,079 --> 01:23:20,960
is a matter of faith? What is a historical you

1026
01:23:21,039 --> 01:23:25,640
know occurrence? Nowhere is this greater felt than in England

1027
01:23:26,039 --> 01:23:31,119
and C. S. Lewis wrote about this, Okay, mostly embodied

1028
01:23:31,199 --> 01:23:32,479
the tendency.

1029
01:23:33,680 --> 01:23:34,079
Speaker 1: To a t.

1030
01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:41,000
Speaker 2: And if you want to understand true English fascism, it

1031
01:23:41,119 --> 01:23:44,439
comes from a different place than German national socialism or

1032
01:23:44,560 --> 01:23:52,239
like Spanish cynicalism, or you know, Italian fascism, you know,

1033
01:23:53,119 --> 01:23:55,880
I mean, in the case of the German Reich. Yes,

1034
01:23:55,960 --> 01:24:00,239
it very much, very much came from what no be

1035
01:24:00,319 --> 01:24:05,560
called fear of practical transcendence, and that has a liminal implication,

1036
01:24:06,600 --> 01:24:10,600
but it's not it's not really the same thing, okay.

1037
01:24:11,279 --> 01:24:14,000
And I make this point not to say respect mostly

1038
01:24:14,279 --> 01:24:16,520
and in a lot of ways I modeled myself on him,

1039
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:24,439
but because this is key and uh, it mostly did

1040
01:24:24,520 --> 01:24:28,520
not gravitate to fascism along to some like fattishness. Like

1041
01:24:28,640 --> 01:24:33,720
nor Dierd, he view it as some sort of skin

1042
01:24:33,960 --> 01:24:39,880
one takes on metaphorically speaking, you know, for pragmatic reasons

1043
01:24:40,119 --> 01:24:43,479
or to combat you know, the opposing tendency of communism

1044
01:24:43,560 --> 01:24:45,720
or anything like that. This is very like, this is

1045
01:24:45,720 --> 01:24:49,279
a very much like autopathigh is like mode of fascism

1046
01:24:50,039 --> 01:24:56,039
that mostly developed, you know. And that's why that's something

1047
01:24:56,039 --> 01:25:00,720
that owes to his staying power in the public mind.

1048
01:25:01,560 --> 01:25:06,279
Because guys who like third or eight guys who tried

1049
01:25:06,319 --> 01:25:10,960
to bandwagon on the right, you know, and model themselves

1050
01:25:11,000 --> 01:25:13,119
on Adolf Hitler or something. Those guys were a diamond,

1051
01:25:13,159 --> 01:25:16,600
doesn't and like nobody followed them, and nobody thought that

1052
01:25:16,680 --> 01:25:20,560
they were serious people, and nobody even remembers them, you know,

1053
01:25:21,680 --> 01:25:23,920
Like what says Mosley apart, you know, it's that Mosley

1054
01:25:24,039 --> 01:25:28,760
wasn't prime Minister. I mean, Moley didn't you know it

1055
01:25:29,239 --> 01:25:32,119
for a man who I mean, yeah, he was a

1056
01:25:32,159 --> 01:25:35,600
significant plaitable figure, but like so is Ramsey McDonald, Okay,

1057
01:25:35,640 --> 01:25:38,319
And like there's not like volumes written on Ramsey McDonald

1058
01:25:38,399 --> 01:25:41,960
who was Prime minister. I think the point stands, you know,

1059
01:25:42,439 --> 01:25:50,159
But Mosley during this time, you know, Moseley's mom and

1060
01:25:50,239 --> 01:25:53,319
a single mother. Moseley's father, who was still quite wealthy,

1061
01:25:53,479 --> 01:25:59,920
but was basically, you know, he absent in every sense,

1062
01:26:00,239 --> 01:26:04,840
including in terms of you know, any any inclination of

1063
01:26:04,880 --> 01:26:10,880
our material assistance. Mosy's mom was struggling to meet the

1064
01:26:10,960 --> 01:26:14,720
tuition demands, you know, just like the expenses of you know,

1065
01:26:15,479 --> 01:26:19,720
of Moses's education. His grandfather set up a trust fund

1066
01:26:22,359 --> 01:26:29,039
for the boys. Mosley and his brother Edward Mosley something

1067
01:26:29,079 --> 01:26:35,000
that helped him was, uh, he took up boxing, and

1068
01:26:35,119 --> 01:26:41,239
he became a very good boxer. You know, at fifteen,

1069
01:26:43,359 --> 01:26:47,880
he was fraudible enough that he was beating guys you know,

1070
01:26:48,279 --> 01:26:51,439
two and three years older than him. You know, he

1071
01:26:51,520 --> 01:26:56,640
had a he had a he had a strong mentor

1072
01:26:57,159 --> 01:27:04,479
and uh influence and his commitment to training in his

1073
01:27:04,720 --> 01:27:09,720
UH boxing coach, a man named Sergeant Ryan, like sergeant

1074
01:27:09,800 --> 01:27:13,560
was his first name, it's not at rank. Mostly won

1075
01:27:13,640 --> 01:27:20,560
the lightweight championship during this time as an amateur boxer,

1076
01:27:23,000 --> 01:27:27,840
and this helped he owing to his prowess obviously, you know,

1077
01:27:27,960 --> 01:27:29,840
like he was given a parcel. His family was given

1078
01:27:29,840 --> 01:27:34,800
a parcel break on on his tuition and things. You know,

1079
01:27:38,119 --> 01:27:44,039
he later transitioned to fencing and UH, it's believed a

1080
01:27:44,119 --> 01:27:50,640
combination of his grandfather as well as UH the influences

1081
01:27:50,760 --> 01:27:57,319
some of these some of these aristocratic types that he

1082
01:27:57,399 --> 01:27:59,840
came into contact with were like the fathers and uncles

1083
01:27:59,880 --> 01:28:02,880
and and brothers of his schoolmates who said basically like,

1084
01:28:03,000 --> 01:28:10,439
look like, you know, trouble is your family. Maybe you

1085
01:28:10,600 --> 01:28:13,640
are a nobleman, and that's great. You know how to fight,

1086
01:28:13,760 --> 01:28:16,720
because everybody needs know how to fight. But no women

1087
01:28:16,720 --> 01:28:21,960
aren't champion boxers, they're fencers. So Mosey took up fencing,

1088
01:28:22,039 --> 01:28:27,000
and he became a fencing prodigy, you know, which is

1089
01:28:27,039 --> 01:28:33,159
pretty remarkable because uh yeah, I mean the kind of

1090
01:28:33,840 --> 01:28:36,680
Kinnis thesis that lends himself to boxing and the kind

1091
01:28:36,720 --> 01:28:42,520
of mental toughness that translates somewhat to fencing but not.

1092
01:28:42,800 --> 01:28:52,359
But they're very, very very different pursuits. But Mosey basically

1093
01:28:52,439 --> 01:28:58,399
excelled and everything he took on. You know, it's uh,

1094
01:29:02,680 --> 01:29:13,159
the headmaster at Westminster, doctor Rendell, he uh, he'd gone

1095
01:29:13,199 --> 01:29:17,039
as far as to try and forbid h mostly entering

1096
01:29:17,119 --> 01:29:21,039
the public schools boxing championship, you know, saying that this

1097
01:29:21,159 --> 01:29:23,920
is this is just like distasteful for like a man

1098
01:29:24,039 --> 01:29:28,079
of your station. Like that's how extreme it was, you know,

1099
01:29:29,159 --> 01:29:30,279
And there was kind of a there was like a

1100
01:29:30,399 --> 01:29:42,000
disconnect too because the military training at the time, even

1101
01:29:42,079 --> 01:29:44,279
for officers, and if you wanted to be an officer

1102
01:29:44,399 --> 01:29:46,680
then unless you were unless in time of war, you

1103
01:29:46,760 --> 01:29:49,039
were like a mud stang and CEO who got promoted

1104
01:29:49,079 --> 01:29:52,199
owing to the fact that you basically pulled some Audie

1105
01:29:52,239 --> 01:29:55,000
Murphy ship. Like he wanted to be an officer in

1106
01:29:55,039 --> 01:29:56,439
the British Army, you know, you had to have the

1107
01:29:56,520 --> 01:30:05,960
right pedigree and military training and the entire culture. Just

1108
01:30:06,079 --> 01:30:09,439
before World War One, the British Army, it was very

1109
01:30:09,640 --> 01:30:14,720
very savage, like almost lawish, you know. And the way

1110
01:30:14,880 --> 01:30:18,760
mostly described it and the way other guys have like

1111
01:30:18,880 --> 01:30:22,680
in their like war diaries and things, you know, it's, uh,

1112
01:30:23,319 --> 01:30:26,560
it's almost like clock Recorne or something. You know, like

1113
01:30:26,760 --> 01:30:30,479
going out, you know, these these these officer candidates who

1114
01:30:30,479 --> 01:30:34,319
are like the sons of a nobleman, you know, going

1115
01:30:34,399 --> 01:30:38,600
into London on the weekend on leave and like getting it,

1116
01:30:38,680 --> 01:30:42,039
getting into like razor blade brawls with uh, with like

1117
01:30:42,199 --> 01:30:45,760
working class yobs or like sailors, like just just for

1118
01:30:45,800 --> 01:30:47,439
the hell of it, you know what I mean. Like

1119
01:30:47,640 --> 01:30:51,880
that's not really what you associate with the with the

1120
01:30:51,920 --> 01:30:54,960
British Army, you know, the officer corps, you know. I mean,

1121
01:30:55,000 --> 01:30:57,239
this isn't the US Marines, like it's the British Army,

1122
01:30:57,960 --> 01:31:03,880
you know, But that it was a you know, it

1123
01:31:04,039 --> 01:31:07,439
owed like I said, like the kind of zeitgeist of violence,

1124
01:31:07,560 --> 01:31:12,479
but just the same. I mean, the kind of that

1125
01:31:12,880 --> 01:31:17,640
kind of pretentious overlay that's obsessed with kind of certain

1126
01:31:18,199 --> 01:31:21,600
modalities of the quorum remained, and it's say, well, you know, gentlemen,

1127
01:31:22,079 --> 01:31:24,159
gentlemen know how to fight, no, how to defend themselves.

1128
01:31:24,239 --> 01:31:27,119
Gentlemen like violence, but they don't box, you know. That's

1129
01:31:27,199 --> 01:31:33,960
for that's something that poor men do. But just before

1130
01:31:34,000 --> 01:31:35,560
we move ahead, just bring it back what I meant

1131
01:31:35,600 --> 01:31:38,039
by liminal figures. Let me clarify that, because I think

1132
01:31:38,079 --> 01:31:40,520
this is important that I don't think it's just a

1133
01:31:40,680 --> 01:31:47,439
silly tangent. I really really like C. S. Lewis, and

1134
01:31:47,880 --> 01:31:52,399
he kind of speaks to me like I think racially

1135
01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:59,000
owing to my own heritage. I've seen us Lewis as

1136
01:31:59,039 --> 01:32:03,760
a Catholic, uh convert, but he was very very English

1137
01:32:03,760 --> 01:32:06,479
and it's a the English character better than almost anybody game.

1138
01:32:08,279 --> 01:32:14,520
My favorite bug of his is that Hideous Strength. It's

1139
01:32:14,640 --> 01:32:20,319
the final chapter. It's the sequel to Out of the

1140
01:32:20,399 --> 01:32:24,119
Silent Planet, you know, and it's part of like his

1141
01:32:24,239 --> 01:32:27,840
Space series, and it follows some of the same characters,

1142
01:32:27,880 --> 01:32:30,199
but it doesn't have to do with with space, although

1143
01:32:30,279 --> 01:32:32,920
some of like the some of the deities and things

1144
01:32:33,399 --> 01:32:37,520
that feature in the earlier books of the Space trilogy

1145
01:32:37,640 --> 01:32:40,840
feature in it. But like briefly, it's about this young

1146
01:32:40,920 --> 01:32:46,840
academic and like literally, as World War two's ending, he's

1147
01:32:46,880 --> 01:32:52,039
a senior fellow in sociology at this fictional university. Okay,

1148
01:32:54,039 --> 01:32:59,039
as the war is ending, this this kind of mysterious

1149
01:32:59,239 --> 01:33:04,920
administrator of body emerges that starts kind of absorbing everything

1150
01:33:07,039 --> 01:33:13,359
of a political or police and military or academic sociological

1151
01:33:13,840 --> 01:33:22,039
character like within its per number. It's a it's called

1152
01:33:22,399 --> 01:33:26,000
nice like nice, which obviously is a riff, you know,

1153
01:33:26,359 --> 01:33:31,920
it's both to represent this kind of like superficially benign institution,

1154
01:33:32,600 --> 01:33:36,560
but it's an acronym for the National Institute for Coordinated Experiments.

1155
01:33:37,399 --> 01:33:39,880
And it turns out that this thing is staffed by

1156
01:33:39,960 --> 01:33:45,359
these like occultists. Okay, but they've got this weird transhumanist

1157
01:33:45,479 --> 01:33:49,520
view of things, and they think that spiritual matters and

1158
01:33:49,640 --> 01:33:53,359
like occult energy and like the summoning of old gods

1159
01:33:53,640 --> 01:33:57,199
and malevolent deities. They believe it's like a scientific basis

1160
01:33:57,279 --> 01:33:59,640
for this or at least like this can be reduced

1161
01:33:59,640 --> 01:34:05,159
to things is like analyzing disturbances and atoms or like

1162
01:34:05,880 --> 01:34:11,119
you know, the manipulation a temporal phenomena around like these

1163
01:34:11,439 --> 01:34:13,920
these entities when they emerge or something and that and

1164
01:34:14,000 --> 01:34:17,760
that'll like reveal through principles and material science like what

1165
01:34:17,960 --> 01:34:20,880
they are. But it turns out that the reason why

1166
01:34:21,079 --> 01:34:26,039
Nice has co opted this university is because it's adjacent

1167
01:34:26,199 --> 01:34:34,680
to this, uh, this land called Braggden Woods and this guy,

1168
01:34:35,199 --> 01:34:38,800
this sociology fella discovers that in Bragdon Woods that's the

1169
01:34:38,880 --> 01:34:42,720
resting place of Merlin, who's a real guy. And this

1170
01:34:42,880 --> 01:34:46,119
isn't like wide be known in the story, but it's

1171
01:34:46,199 --> 01:34:48,720
like people in the know, like know that Merlin was

1172
01:34:48,800 --> 01:34:52,640
real and that he's either in repose or his body

1173
01:34:52,760 --> 01:34:55,880
is here. But this is like a Bragdon Woods. It's

1174
01:34:56,000 --> 01:34:58,880
powerful and it's clear if you like disturb Merlin's corpse

1175
01:34:59,000 --> 01:35:04,640
or you know, person and suspended animation, like something terrible

1176
01:35:04,640 --> 01:35:09,199
will happen, you know. So it basically as it develops

1177
01:35:09,479 --> 01:35:14,000
like this guy Merlin's eventually revived. It's not clear what

1178
01:35:14,079 --> 01:35:17,239
the implications that are going to be, but something apocalyptic

1179
01:35:17,600 --> 01:35:20,479
is emergent, and as the story goes out, it becomes

1180
01:35:20,600 --> 01:35:24,000
clear like, well, this is something unique to England, you know,

1181
01:35:24,199 --> 01:35:28,760
like what history is and what mythology is in certain

1182
01:35:28,840 --> 01:35:33,199
institutions and certain partterns of thought, in certain belief structures.

1183
01:35:33,600 --> 01:35:38,840
These two things collapse into one another, okay. And if

1184
01:35:38,920 --> 01:35:43,479
you're not indoctrinated into that or initiated into that in

1185
01:35:43,600 --> 01:35:46,439
some way, like you don't really understand what it is

1186
01:35:46,479 --> 01:35:48,640
to be English and you're not really part of that

1187
01:35:48,760 --> 01:35:54,760
cultural milu, you know. And there's tremendous power in being

1188
01:35:54,760 --> 01:35:59,680
able to access this kind of liminal memory. But there's

1189
01:35:59,720 --> 01:36:04,720
also tremendous perils that are involved there too, okay. And

1190
01:36:05,960 --> 01:36:08,399
mostly not only was a believer in these kinds of things,

1191
01:36:08,479 --> 01:36:12,880
but he somehow I embodied the characteristics culturally and psychologically

1192
01:36:13,720 --> 01:36:16,079
that you have rise to that kind of paradigm, Okay,

1193
01:36:18,279 --> 01:36:21,960
And that's the key to English fascism. You know, there's, uh,

1194
01:36:24,039 --> 01:36:32,960
there's an aspect of historical memory that is uh, that's

1195
01:36:33,039 --> 01:36:40,600
something different than the kind of phenomenological aspects of national socialism.

1196
01:36:41,920 --> 01:36:44,560
But that's what I meant. I wanted to clarify that

1197
01:36:49,119 --> 01:36:57,359
the uh. Yeah, but I'll let me see what kind

1198
01:36:57,359 --> 01:36:59,439
of time ago. Yeah, I'll pick up the pace a

1199
01:36:59,479 --> 01:37:14,119
little bit. By January nineteen fourteen, you know, young Moseley

1200
01:37:14,199 --> 01:37:17,119
obviously was coming to the end of his public school studies.

1201
01:37:22,439 --> 01:37:24,439
He saw it it mad. He had no idea what

1202
01:37:24,520 --> 01:37:27,119
he was going to do for a profession. But you know, again,

1203
01:37:27,319 --> 01:37:32,680
even though even though World War One hadn't broken out yet,

1204
01:37:35,920 --> 01:37:44,359
you know, something not quite but precedent to war fevers

1205
01:37:44,399 --> 01:37:48,760
seemed to be in the air. Mostly under he took

1206
01:37:48,840 --> 01:37:52,880
the test for the Royal Military College at Sandhurst. He

1207
01:37:53,000 --> 01:38:02,119
was accepted. For the next nine months he trained as

1208
01:38:02,159 --> 01:38:08,520
the cavalrymen and the dragoon dragoons and lancers. For clarity,

1209
01:38:09,800 --> 01:38:14,079
lancers are basically force reconnaissance like they still exist. They're

1210
01:38:14,079 --> 01:38:20,159
still like designated uh lancer elements like in the British

1211
01:38:20,239 --> 01:38:23,760
Army to day and on the twenty and the twenty

1212
01:38:23,800 --> 01:38:27,520
percentry battlefield. They do what like force reconnaissance would do,

1213
01:38:27,760 --> 01:38:36,079
like in an American military organization, dragoons are mounted and

1214
01:38:36,239 --> 01:38:40,920
dismounted into cavalry. Heavy dragoons basically ride to the battle

1215
01:38:41,000 --> 01:38:45,399
space or in like the Napoleonic era, they'd like ride

1216
01:38:45,439 --> 01:38:50,920
to the front, dismount information and then unload heavy weapons

1217
01:38:51,159 --> 01:38:56,439
that they'd like manhandle as like infantry. But they were

1218
01:38:56,520 --> 01:39:02,439
basically uh pre mechanize mobile infantry. Is the way you

1219
01:39:02,520 --> 01:39:10,439
think of him in like World War One context, mostly

1220
01:39:10,479 --> 01:39:12,680
would been had been an avid horseman his whole life.

1221
01:39:13,119 --> 01:39:15,920
That's another thing that you know, his grandfather had kind

1222
01:39:15,960 --> 01:39:21,239
of insinuated into him, so uh militarily like what he

1223
01:39:21,319 --> 01:39:23,319
wanted to do, Like he wanted you know, he wanted

1224
01:39:23,399 --> 01:39:32,760
to do something with cavalry, you know. As a as

1225
01:39:32,840 --> 01:39:42,680
the war uh broke out, Mosey intended, as I said it,

1226
01:39:42,800 --> 01:39:47,600
joined the seventeenth Lancers. Their commander was a man named

1227
01:39:48,000 --> 01:39:53,399
Vivianne Lockett. Vivianne Lockett was a cousin of Mosley's, okay,

1228
01:39:53,920 --> 01:39:56,119
and he was also like a leading like polo player,

1229
01:39:57,000 --> 01:40:01,279
so he was like he was a stud. But Moseley,

1230
01:40:03,239 --> 01:40:07,840
Moseley had more personal social capital than he did money

1231
01:40:08,039 --> 01:40:12,439
or or business connections. And this is something throughout his

1232
01:40:12,520 --> 01:40:15,319
life that kind of helped him get ahead, you know.

1233
01:40:17,760 --> 01:40:21,279
But he was persuaded to make the switch to the

1234
01:40:21,399 --> 01:40:27,319
sixteenth Light Dragoons by a friend of his mom's family.

1235
01:40:28,840 --> 01:40:34,079
So lovely stammer, but it was basically the same element.

1236
01:40:36,760 --> 01:40:40,560
At seventeen, he was built into the sixteenth Lancers. In

1237
01:40:40,560 --> 01:40:46,800
October one, nineteen fourteen, he's commissioned as the second lieutenant.

1238
01:40:48,079 --> 01:40:54,920
He reported the kerrah Um Barracks in County Killed are

1239
01:40:56,359 --> 01:40:59,720
twenty miles south of Dublin that was like the home

1240
01:41:00,199 --> 01:41:05,720
base for sixteen Lancers who are attached to the third

1241
01:41:05,760 --> 01:41:17,119
Cavalry Brigade, which had been reinforced anticipation a trouble because

1242
01:41:17,239 --> 01:41:21,840
uh Prime Minister Asketh Home Rule Act, and there was

1243
01:41:21,920 --> 01:41:27,640
great concern that there was a gonna be some sort

1244
01:41:27,640 --> 01:41:31,720
of coup stage in Northern Ireland by like Ulster born

1245
01:41:31,840 --> 01:41:35,920
officers or you know, an event of a breakout of

1246
01:41:36,000 --> 01:41:44,119
general hostilities in uh in Ireland that uh, like the

1247
01:41:44,239 --> 01:41:47,359
ulstermen among the officers would simply dessert and like go

1248
01:41:47,479 --> 01:41:51,600
to defend Ulster, you know. And this this obviously this

1249
01:41:51,640 --> 01:41:55,119
is outside the Scobar discussion on on Osbald Mosley. But

1250
01:41:58,880 --> 01:42:02,119
one of the reasons why the Irish situation like developed

1251
01:42:02,119 --> 01:42:04,560
the way it did after the Easter Rising is obviously

1252
01:42:04,720 --> 01:42:08,279
because you know, the British were engaged in essentially like

1253
01:42:09,199 --> 01:42:14,039
you know, total war on the continent. But this was

1254
01:42:14,119 --> 01:42:21,359
a Mosley was the youngest man. Uh he was the

1255
01:42:21,399 --> 01:42:26,319
youngest officer in the regiment, you know, and this must

1256
01:42:26,359 --> 01:42:29,520
have been this constellation of fact there was like knowing

1257
01:42:29,560 --> 01:42:31,359
you're going to deploy to the continent and it was

1258
01:42:31,399 --> 01:42:36,000
turning into a meat grinder. You're in Ulster. There's this

1259
01:42:36,119 --> 01:42:39,199
fear of a you know, like a thirty year officers

1260
01:42:39,239 --> 01:42:44,119
who are like native sons deserting. You know. You there's

1261
01:42:44,119 --> 01:42:49,720
also a concern of a you know, there's some sort

1262
01:42:49,720 --> 01:42:53,039
of general war with the you know, with with the

1263
01:42:54,039 --> 01:42:57,880
the UH, with with some Irish Republican element. I mean,

1264
01:42:57,920 --> 01:43:04,079
this this family wasn't necessemily, wasn't a posting for guys

1265
01:43:04,119 --> 01:43:09,479
that didn't didn't have didn't have balls. You know, That's

1266
01:43:09,479 --> 01:43:12,800
why it was that resent. People run to brocheade on

1267
01:43:12,880 --> 01:43:17,800
Mosey's service record. I mean, that's ridiculous anyway. But the UH,

1268
01:43:20,359 --> 01:43:27,600
just before Christmas, Mosey's regiment UH had embarked for France.

1269
01:43:30,640 --> 01:43:36,840
Mosey was expected to be sent right into action. It

1270
01:43:37,079 --> 01:43:39,920
quickly became clear there was no need for conventional cavalry,

1271
01:43:41,479 --> 01:43:43,640
so he realized he was gonna find himself like leading

1272
01:43:43,640 --> 01:43:47,239
an anthanty platoon, which he was you know, he's fine with,

1273
01:43:47,479 --> 01:43:51,479
but he there was an appeal sent out because there's

1274
01:43:51,479 --> 01:43:54,720
a desperate need for aerial observers in the Royal Flying

1275
01:43:54,760 --> 01:44:01,680
Corps and UH at that time. This is a very

1276
01:44:01,760 --> 01:44:05,640
dangerous job for all kinds of reasons and the Germans.

1277
01:44:05,720 --> 01:44:10,359
One of the reasons why Rick Toffen and Ernst Oudette

1278
01:44:10,920 --> 01:44:13,079
and Young Gearing and the rest of the you know,

1279
01:44:13,119 --> 01:44:15,039
the rick Toff and flying circus as well as a

1280
01:44:15,039 --> 01:44:22,960
bunch of these other Kaiser right air aces. They they

1281
01:44:23,000 --> 01:44:27,439
were ahead of the game. The Germans were in tactical

1282
01:44:27,560 --> 01:44:30,880
versatility of aircraft and they were really chewing the UK

1283
01:44:31,079 --> 01:44:33,640
and the French to pieces in the air for about

1284
01:44:33,680 --> 01:44:37,720
the first twelve to eighteen months of hostilities. So this

1285
01:44:37,920 --> 01:44:42,880
is not like light duty. Also, there was no U

1286
01:44:43,640 --> 01:44:47,840
there was no ejection and no parachutes in these World

1287
01:44:47,840 --> 01:44:51,279
War One aircraft. So when the when the aircraft went down,

1288
01:44:51,359 --> 01:44:54,319
you just embraced yourself and you craft with it, you know.

1289
01:44:54,479 --> 01:45:02,399
I mean it was definitely a man's job. But volunteered

1290
01:45:03,960 --> 01:45:07,000
for the Royal Flying Corps and no small measure because

1291
01:45:07,840 --> 01:45:12,239
that's where aristocrats went, you know, especially when you know

1292
01:45:12,479 --> 01:45:16,399
the absence of a true roll for the cavalry element,

1293
01:45:19,279 --> 01:45:25,039
you know it. Uh So that's where he made his

1294
01:45:25,199 --> 01:45:33,359
home and you know, in his deployment to France. It

1295
01:45:33,479 --> 01:45:36,960
was also something of anna lead fraternity the Royal Flying Corps.

1296
01:45:37,079 --> 01:45:42,720
As of nineteen fourteen, it had fewer than one thousand men.

1297
01:45:45,680 --> 01:45:48,439
It was made up of two wings and sixty four aircraft.

1298
01:45:49,920 --> 01:45:52,479
The number one wing, it was literally wing number one.

1299
01:45:52,560 --> 01:45:59,000
Wing number two is commanded by Hugh Trenchard. Mosey was

1300
01:45:59,039 --> 01:46:02,600
posted to wing too, you know, again as an observer.

1301
01:46:03,359 --> 01:46:09,000
He hadn't qualified to fly yet as a solo flyer,

1302
01:46:11,439 --> 01:46:19,359
which is was and when he did that, ironically, is

1303
01:46:19,520 --> 01:46:21,119
one of the things that conspired to take him out

1304
01:46:21,159 --> 01:46:25,479
of action from an elief in a combat role, I mean,

1305
01:46:26,800 --> 01:46:34,079
but two weeks subsequent he joined a number two wing,

1306
01:46:35,000 --> 01:46:40,520
number six Squadron, which had been established on the coast

1307
01:46:40,560 --> 01:46:45,520
at Dunkirk. I was deployed to protect was deployed to

1308
01:46:45,560 --> 01:46:51,199
assist in the relief of Antwerp, and UH observers played

1309
01:46:51,239 --> 01:46:54,960
in a key role because they'd spot for indirect fire,

1310
01:46:55,840 --> 01:47:04,319
you know, just for context, the UH, these these these

1311
01:47:04,359 --> 01:47:09,640
spotting flights usually took three hours. Obviously they were behind

1312
01:47:09,760 --> 01:47:15,520
enemy lines because they were essentially sighting in you know,

1313
01:47:17,279 --> 01:47:21,000
counter force artillery, you know, so they have to spot for,

1314
01:47:21,640 --> 01:47:26,479
you know, where German guns were situated, and the heavy

1315
01:47:27,399 --> 01:47:32,119
artillery element you know, was sometimes you know, seventy eighty

1316
01:47:32,239 --> 01:47:39,720
miles behind the lines. So you're basically surveying German defenses

1317
01:47:40,920 --> 01:47:46,880
in a slow flying prop plane that with the maximum

1318
01:47:46,960 --> 01:47:50,119
stealing of six thousand feet or so. You know, you're

1319
01:47:50,880 --> 01:47:54,920
you're sitting duck for ground fire as well as UH

1320
01:47:56,560 --> 01:48:01,880
you know, for for enemy fighters, which again we're a

1321
01:48:01,960 --> 01:48:09,720
lot more versatile at this time. Then then World Flying

1322
01:48:09,800 --> 01:48:13,960
Corps aircraft, you know. And then top speed is you know,

1323
01:48:14,079 --> 01:48:18,439
seventy to eighty miles an hour in a strong wind.

1324
01:48:20,760 --> 01:48:23,600
If you're carrying ordinance, if it's a bombing ran there's

1325
01:48:23,760 --> 01:48:26,840
a recon run, your speed might slow to thirty to

1326
01:48:26,920 --> 01:48:31,680
forty million miles per hour, you know. I mean again,

1327
01:48:31,840 --> 01:48:38,880
this the the ony casualties from just like ground fire

1328
01:48:38,960 --> 01:48:43,920
including small arms was it's it's absurd by you know,

1329
01:48:44,800 --> 01:48:55,600
contemporary metrics. But the uh Mosley's UH Mosey's pilot that

1330
01:48:55,680 --> 01:48:59,880
he was assigned to. He and Mosey were both shot

1331
01:49:00,000 --> 01:49:05,399
I mean, they're they're playing was shot down during a

1332
01:49:05,479 --> 01:49:10,640
low flying run where at lowest altitude they were only

1333
01:49:10,680 --> 01:49:20,279
five hundred feet above ground for UH. For the mission,

1334
01:49:20,479 --> 01:49:27,279
uh MOS's pilot received the Distinguished Service Order. Mostly uh

1335
01:49:28,039 --> 01:49:34,600
injured his knee and the uh suffered a concussion. This

1336
01:49:34,720 --> 01:49:36,920
was the first and many injuries he got, you know,

1337
01:49:38,520 --> 01:49:42,439
directly owing to hostile action. You know, like I said,

1338
01:49:43,119 --> 01:49:46,119
Moses was in He was in comic about seventy five days,

1339
01:49:47,680 --> 01:49:52,840
all told, before he was injured catastrophically and taken out

1340
01:49:52,880 --> 01:49:58,159
of action. Ironically, he was injured when he was qualifying

1341
01:49:59,800 --> 01:50:04,720
as a solo pilot, which he probably had no business

1342
01:50:04,800 --> 01:50:07,079
being in the air. Like going to these previous injuries

1343
01:50:07,680 --> 01:50:12,920
he sustained. But you know that, uh, for those seventy

1344
01:50:12,960 --> 01:50:18,920
five days, he was basically in constant, constant action, you know,

1345
01:50:21,520 --> 01:50:27,920
the uh mostly uh, he said. Uh. He wrote a

1346
01:50:27,960 --> 01:50:32,039
letter to his mother when he was flying these recontorties.

1347
01:50:33,079 --> 01:50:38,079
He said she should not grieve if he's killed in action,

1348
01:50:39,760 --> 01:50:42,760
because he was sure he would find death quote a

1349
01:50:42,840 --> 01:50:47,279
most interesting experience. He said that.

1350
01:50:47,479 --> 01:50:47,600
Speaker 1: Uh.

1351
01:50:48,560 --> 01:50:52,039
Speaker 2: He said being under fire was terrifying, but it was

1352
01:50:52,119 --> 01:50:57,279
also exhilarating and very exciting. He said. It was a

1353
01:50:57,359 --> 01:51:02,239
quote peculiar ecstasy which sooner were off, after which time

1354
01:51:03,279 --> 01:51:10,760
one had to resist a uh, a profound depression. But

1355
01:51:12,319 --> 01:51:16,000
he uh. He wrote a lot, both to his mom

1356
01:51:16,920 --> 01:51:19,439
and some of his friends and a lady he was

1357
01:51:19,479 --> 01:51:22,760
trying to court about this weird dichotomy because he said,

1358
01:51:22,800 --> 01:51:25,199
compared to the infantry. He's like, you know, we live well,

1359
01:51:26,560 --> 01:51:29,479
you know, He's like, uh, we live in nice quarters.

1360
01:51:30,159 --> 01:51:33,039
You know. He's like a lot of the guys are gormands,

1361
01:51:33,199 --> 01:51:35,399
so we eat a lot of good food, you know.

1362
01:51:35,479 --> 01:51:37,680
But then he's like, every day, like more of us die,

1363
01:51:38,079 --> 01:51:39,600
you know, so it's like there's less and less of

1364
01:51:39,680 --> 01:51:42,560
us at dinner, you know. And he's like he's like

1365
01:51:42,720 --> 01:51:44,960
he's like when you're on the ground, he's like he's like,

1366
01:51:45,000 --> 01:51:48,000
I'm sure to the infantry, death seems very much organic

1367
01:51:48,159 --> 01:51:51,159
because it's all around you. You know. He's like, we're

1368
01:51:51,239 --> 01:51:53,880
kind of like a gentleman's like flying society. But then

1369
01:51:54,000 --> 01:51:56,359
like every day some of us like get blown to hell.

1370
01:51:59,680 --> 01:52:03,279
You know. There's something like there's something very funny about that,

1371
01:52:03,720 --> 01:52:08,880
and I get it was way but uh yeah, let's

1372
01:52:08,880 --> 01:52:11,199
see what the Okay, I'll wrap thisself on a second,

1373
01:52:11,439 --> 01:52:28,000
but the uh yeah, So the Mosley's a squadron. In

1374
01:52:28,199 --> 01:52:32,279
April ninety fifteen became a bombing squadron, and this involved

1375
01:52:32,319 --> 01:52:35,479
literally dropping hammer and age from a thousand feet or

1376
01:52:35,600 --> 01:52:38,840
like strapping like one hundred pound bomb to the fuselage

1377
01:52:38,880 --> 01:52:42,159
of the plane and then cutting it loose, you know,

1378
01:52:42,359 --> 01:52:48,319
like dropping it a approximately over the target on UH.

1379
01:52:49,720 --> 01:52:57,560
On the eighteenth of April, Moseley and his pilot, we're

1380
01:52:57,640 --> 01:53:05,239
dropping bombs on his zeppelin shed at the Connolly. This

1381
01:53:05,479 --> 01:53:13,000
is what earned UH. This is a mission that that

1382
01:53:13,119 --> 01:53:17,000
earned mostly uh uh disting with service order of his own.

1383
01:53:18,720 --> 01:53:29,800
But and there's an interesting dynamic to between uh the

1384
01:53:29,920 --> 01:53:37,880
soldiers kind of in this first early phase of World

1385
01:53:37,920 --> 01:53:41,760
War One, like Lloyd George became like a really hero

1386
01:53:42,119 --> 01:53:48,039
to the men at the front, including mostly and this

1387
01:53:48,319 --> 01:53:54,319
was his uh inspiration to become a parliamentarian, which we'll

1388
01:53:54,359 --> 01:53:56,680
have to get into in the next episode. This my quo.

1389
01:53:56,800 --> 01:53:58,359
Does Mike get straight out of the four episode? I

1390
01:53:58,439 --> 01:54:06,880
hope that's not a problem or humbersome. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1391
01:54:06,960 --> 01:54:10,119
I'll argrogate it because I don't want to screw up

1392
01:54:10,159 --> 01:54:15,119
the schedule. But Mosley's uh reverence for Lloyd George, which

1393
01:54:15,199 --> 01:54:19,840
seems but I'm sure it seems ironic or peculiar to

1394
01:54:19,920 --> 01:54:24,800
people who you know, think of the b u F

1395
01:54:25,319 --> 01:54:28,319
as it ultimately was constituted as being the kind of

1396
01:54:28,359 --> 01:54:31,800
the ultimate like anti establishment element, and in some ways

1397
01:54:31,880 --> 01:54:35,640
it was. But I'll get into why Lloyd George became

1398
01:54:35,720 --> 01:54:41,119
this like iconic figure too, like uh, the British combat

1399
01:54:41,159 --> 01:54:45,920
element at the front in the next episode. But yeah,

1400
01:54:45,960 --> 01:54:48,119
and we'll we'll get into the meat of the b

1401
01:54:48,279 --> 01:54:51,800
u F in the next episode. I promise that I

1402
01:54:51,880 --> 01:54:55,319
think this stuff is findamentally important and I figure if

1403
01:54:55,439 --> 01:54:58,840
it wasn't holding Egle's attention, they'd complain. But the feedback

1404
01:54:58,960 --> 01:55:02,720
as far seems to be effusive. Then it's praise, and

1405
01:55:02,800 --> 01:55:05,279
that's great. I'm very honored by it. Yeah, we we

1406
01:55:05,319 --> 01:55:09,960
can wrap up, man, and I'll i'll uh, I'll cover

1407
01:55:10,119 --> 01:55:12,159
more ground and les's time next episode.

1408
01:55:12,199 --> 01:55:17,039
Speaker 1: I promise, no problem, very good, very good. Two plugs please.

1409
01:55:18,439 --> 01:55:21,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, I'm retooling my website. Really, my dear friend

1410
01:55:22,880 --> 01:55:24,880
he's doing all that work because I don't I don't

1411
01:55:24,960 --> 01:55:30,880
really know how to do that stuff. But the uh

1412
01:55:33,640 --> 01:55:36,199
you can find me at at Thomas seven seven seven

1413
01:55:36,239 --> 01:55:39,279
dot com like number seven h O A S seven

1414
01:55:39,359 --> 01:55:43,399
seven seven dot com. On social media at Capital r

1415
01:55:43,439 --> 01:55:47,960
E e A L underscore number seven h O MA

1416
01:55:48,119 --> 01:55:51,880
S seven seven seven best place to always substack. That's

1417
01:55:51,920 --> 01:55:55,079
where long form stuff is in my podcast. I'm watching

1418
01:55:55,159 --> 01:55:58,920
season three of the pod. By February twenty eighth, but

1419
01:55:59,000 --> 01:56:02,720
I don't have an example date yet. It's real Thomas

1420
01:56:03,039 --> 01:56:06,880
seven seven seven. That's subsect dot com. You should search

1421
01:56:06,920 --> 01:56:10,600
for me just under my alt or under my government name,

1422
01:56:10,680 --> 01:56:13,840
which is Thomas Sr. And you'll find my stuff.

1423
01:56:13,920 --> 01:56:17,880
Speaker 1: Man, Thank you, thank you. I appreciate it. And yeah,

1424
01:56:18,640 --> 01:56:21,319
all the feedback we've gotten on the first episode is great,

1425
01:56:21,319 --> 01:56:23,359
and I'm sure this is gonna be no different.

1426
01:56:24,760 --> 01:56:27,319
Speaker 2: No, it's awesome. Yeah, you're welcome man, thanks for hosting me.

1427
01:56:29,079 --> 01:56:31,800
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Peking Show.

1428
01:56:32,840 --> 01:56:37,800
Thomas is here for part three talking about mister Oswald Mosley.

1429
01:56:38,119 --> 01:56:41,960
Speaker 2: Are you doing, Thomas, I'm doing well, thank you. So,

1430
01:56:42,000 --> 01:56:45,159
I'm that's important to understand. There's a few things and

1431
01:56:45,560 --> 01:56:53,880
they're all related in terms of something of significance Daly

1432
01:56:54,039 --> 01:57:00,399
other than shouldn't fein MP, who is a boy cutting

1433
01:57:00,760 --> 01:57:03,760
the House of Commons. He was the youngest member of

1434
01:57:03,840 --> 01:57:10,199
Parliament and he was viewed as this prodigy and Churchill

1435
01:57:10,279 --> 01:57:13,720
viewed him as something of a rival. Okay, And in

1436
01:57:13,840 --> 01:57:21,840
those days, the Tories weren't really the ruling party. I mean,

1437
01:57:21,840 --> 01:57:25,279
they weren't at all like the coalition that ultimately kind

1438
01:57:25,319 --> 01:57:30,640
of morphed into the Tories was but really the only

1439
01:57:30,720 --> 01:57:34,600
thing they had in common was legacy membership and a

1440
01:57:34,680 --> 01:57:39,840
kind of class consciousness that they'd inherited. The coalition that

1441
01:57:40,000 --> 01:57:42,600
Moseley ultimately joined when he went to the House of

1442
01:57:42,680 --> 01:57:48,279
Commons it was the Liberal Party, not the Liberal Democrats,

1443
01:57:48,359 --> 01:57:51,600
the Liberal Party which was defuncts by the eighties, okay.

1444
01:57:53,560 --> 01:57:57,399
And the Liberal Party had a split between unionists who

1445
01:57:57,720 --> 01:58:01,319
refused to accept home rule and Ireland as the Civil

1446
01:58:01,359 --> 01:58:07,039
War was raging, and guys who had a more moderate

1447
01:58:07,199 --> 01:58:13,359
perspective on it. And these guys were more in coalition

1448
01:58:13,520 --> 01:58:17,199
with the Conservatives contra Labor and those days Labor was

1449
01:58:17,239 --> 01:58:20,760
a revolutionary party, like they weren't communists, but they were close,

1450
01:58:21,880 --> 01:58:28,479
you know. And mostly his big thing was that there

1451
01:58:28,520 --> 01:58:31,079
could never be another war like the Great War. And

1452
01:58:31,119 --> 01:58:36,319
despite the way that he's slandered by court historians, he

1453
01:58:36,520 --> 01:58:41,399
was then heavy action as an aviator. He was catastrophically wounded, admittedly,

1454
01:58:41,600 --> 01:58:45,680
like you know, during a training maneuver, but he'd been

1455
01:58:45,880 --> 01:58:50,960
wounded in action before that, although not critically, you know,

1456
01:58:51,199 --> 01:58:54,319
like I said, he was at Epra where you know,

1457
01:58:56,039 --> 01:59:00,520
young Lonzo Adolph Hitler was an action I mean Mosey

1458
01:59:00,760 --> 01:59:03,279
was literally witnessing that with a bird's eye view, like

1459
01:59:03,359 --> 01:59:07,079
he saw the first poison gas assault, you know, and

1460
01:59:07,760 --> 01:59:10,399
a bunch of men in his squadron like went down

1461
01:59:10,479 --> 01:59:13,039
in combat, you know, Like he was thrown to Gellow's

1462
01:59:13,119 --> 01:59:18,760
humor about this. So he wanted to salvage the League

1463
01:59:18,800 --> 01:59:22,159
of Nations, but as a collective security kind of arrangement.

1464
01:59:22,279 --> 01:59:29,520
Even when Wilson threw his hands up and subsequently, you know,

1465
01:59:29,560 --> 01:59:34,159
the US Congress refused to ratify it outright, Moseley said,

1466
01:59:34,199 --> 01:59:37,359
look like we need some kind of collective security arrangement,

1467
01:59:39,119 --> 01:59:43,159
you know. And despite being despite backing the imperialist position,

1468
01:59:43,800 --> 01:59:46,600
which wasn't a dirty word, then you know, he said,

1469
01:59:47,079 --> 01:59:49,760
we've got these manufacturers, and if we want to continue

1470
01:59:49,800 --> 01:59:54,479
to be a great power, you know, our competitive manufacturer,

1471
01:59:54,520 --> 01:59:58,720
he needs a destination in needs destination markets, and saying

1472
01:59:58,720 --> 02:00:01,239
we're gonna like perpetually be at war with the Germans

1473
02:00:01,279 --> 02:00:04,079
to fight over those that's not liable, you know. And

1474
02:00:04,159 --> 02:00:06,880
he's like, if half the planet can't purchase our manufacturers,

1475
02:00:07,520 --> 02:00:11,920
where we're done. You know. So he was a free

1476
02:00:12,000 --> 02:00:15,800
trader with qualifications and in those days, like free trade

1477
02:00:15,840 --> 02:00:18,520
didn't mean we're gonna throw the borders open and we're

1478
02:00:18,560 --> 02:00:22,439
going to socially engineer identitarian things out of existence. Like

1479
02:00:22,560 --> 02:00:25,399
Mosey made the point, he was a huge immigration restrictionist,

1480
02:00:26,119 --> 02:00:27,680
you know. He said, like, this is going to become

1481
02:00:27,720 --> 02:00:30,720
a problem. You know. And because he was an aviator,

1482
02:00:31,960 --> 02:00:37,239
not only did he have a very deep understanding of

1483
02:00:38,279 --> 02:00:44,439
the technological curve and how future shock impacted things sociologically

1484
02:00:44,520 --> 02:00:48,079
at scale, but he understood this mention the mobility of

1485
02:00:48,159 --> 02:00:51,479
human populations. He understood also like you combine that with

1486
02:00:51,600 --> 02:00:55,399
mass literacy, with the kinds of things that Smangler discussed

1487
02:00:55,439 --> 02:00:58,720
and man in technics and the our decision. You know.

1488
02:00:59,479 --> 02:01:02,000
Moseley was like something of a racialist, I mean, like

1489
02:01:02,119 --> 02:01:04,720
like I am, but he didn't have ideas that like,

1490
02:01:05,079 --> 02:01:07,199
oh the colored world are stupid, or they're a bunch

1491
02:01:07,239 --> 02:01:10,039
of monkeys or they He's like, look, these people are

1492
02:01:10,079 --> 02:01:14,159
going to master technology and some of them are are

1493
02:01:14,279 --> 02:01:18,039
as capable of managing it as a white man, you know,

1494
02:01:18,119 --> 02:01:20,800
you're gonna have to deal with that reality, you know.

1495
02:01:21,359 --> 02:01:24,520
And one of the things that we're gonna have to

1496
02:01:24,560 --> 02:01:26,399
be aware of is that our store are gonna be

1497
02:01:26,439 --> 02:01:28,800
swarmed kind of like with the world's wretched and poor,

1498
02:01:29,119 --> 02:01:31,079
like not even by design, although that would you know,

1499
02:01:31,159 --> 02:01:33,439
although he acknowledge like that was part of something that

1500
02:01:33,560 --> 02:01:36,119
was in the in the cards. But he's like, you know,

1501
02:01:36,359 --> 02:01:39,199
just the there's gonna be masters of people who can't

1502
02:01:39,319 --> 02:01:45,359
adjust to the future, which is arriving with punctuated rapidity,

1503
02:01:46,319 --> 02:01:50,079
you know, and they're they're going to be attracted to,

1504
02:01:52,359 --> 02:01:56,680
as Hitler said, the works and structures of superior men.

1505
02:01:58,119 --> 02:02:05,000
You know. So he was a complicated guy, okay, and

1506
02:02:05,039 --> 02:02:09,279
would ultimately caused his defection to the Labor Party and

1507
02:02:09,399 --> 02:02:15,399
then his founding of a Fascist party. Was these values

1508
02:02:15,439 --> 02:02:18,520
that I'm talking about, you know, it wasn't some opportunist thing,

1509
02:02:18,640 --> 02:02:23,840
and mostly wasn't this like marginal figure or this aristocrat,

1510
02:02:24,000 --> 02:02:27,039
this lesser aristocrat who was out bad with the establishment

1511
02:02:27,199 --> 02:02:29,800
who struck a protest pos Like I think some people

1512
02:02:29,880 --> 02:02:32,720
look at like the Roder Expode caricature and they confuse

1513
02:02:32,840 --> 02:02:35,399
that like with the man. It'd be like if people

1514
02:02:35,520 --> 02:02:37,880
like took like the Charlie Chaplin movie and we're like, yeah,

1515
02:02:37,920 --> 02:02:40,880
that that's Adolf Hitler. He was really like that. I mean,

1516
02:02:40,880 --> 02:02:43,680
I think there's some degree of that, but Hitler kind

1517
02:02:43,680 --> 02:02:45,720
of features. It's too much of a sinister figure in

1518
02:02:45,760 --> 02:02:49,239
people's minds, like these a Moseley like people don't realize

1519
02:02:50,920 --> 02:02:56,159
like he he really was. He was almost like Kennedy

1520
02:02:56,479 --> 02:02:59,960
was like John F. Kennedy and like his early career

1521
02:03:00,680 --> 02:03:03,359
he was like this war hero and he was a

1522
02:03:03,439 --> 02:03:06,199
big womanizer because like you know, ladies all liked him.

1523
02:03:06,560 --> 02:03:09,920
He looked like a matinee idol. He cultivated this kind

1524
02:03:09,960 --> 02:03:14,920
of incredible aptitude at rhetoric, you know, and when he

1525
02:03:15,079 --> 02:03:18,920
was basically not much more than a teenager, you know,

1526
02:03:19,079 --> 02:03:22,680
you had you had parliamentarians like guy's a real pedigree

1527
02:03:22,760 --> 02:03:24,960
and in the UK that shit matters to this day,

1528
02:03:25,720 --> 02:03:28,520
like stepping over themselves to draft him on to their

1529
02:03:28,800 --> 02:03:32,960
front bench. You know, he was. He was a very

1530
02:03:33,079 --> 02:03:41,119
serious guy, you know. One of the things that drew

1531
02:03:41,159 --> 02:03:46,000
a wedge. He he was branded a class trader and

1532
02:03:46,439 --> 02:03:48,800
he was out bad with and I'll get into this

1533
02:03:48,880 --> 02:03:52,279
in a minute, with the men who'd basically vouched for

1534
02:03:52,439 --> 02:03:58,239
him and its coalition. He led these liberal Unionists in

1535
02:03:58,359 --> 02:04:03,399
coalition with the you know these these uh these kind

1536
02:04:03,439 --> 02:04:09,399
of neo Whig Tories. Mostly was a friend of the

1537
02:04:09,520 --> 02:04:12,319
Irish in a big way. And when the Black and Tans,

1538
02:04:14,239 --> 02:04:16,680
who were a bunch of Great War veterans and most

1539
02:04:16,720 --> 02:04:21,640
of them were ulstermen, they started putting huge hurt on uh,

1540
02:04:22,319 --> 02:04:25,319
not just Fanians, but I'm like regular Catholic people, like

1541
02:04:25,399 --> 02:04:31,720
it's not propaganda. At the front bench, we're getting a

1542
02:04:31,760 --> 02:04:33,800
little hut of ourselves just to be I want to

1543
02:04:33,800 --> 02:04:38,439
get this, put this out front, the original Bloody Sunday,

1544
02:04:38,600 --> 02:04:45,039
which was November eleventh, nineteen twenty one. I'm sure one

1545
02:04:45,039 --> 02:04:47,600
of the Irish guys, your girls will correct me if

1546
02:04:47,640 --> 02:04:55,319
I'm wrong. That's when a bunch of a bunch of

1547
02:04:55,479 --> 02:05:04,600
UH British Intelligence Service U officers were murdered by the IRA.

1548
02:05:06,000 --> 02:05:10,760
So the Black and Tans UH they started uh resorting

1549
02:05:10,800 --> 02:05:15,279
to retaliation against the general Catholic population. And the front

1550
02:05:15,279 --> 02:05:19,079
and bench of unions in Parliament said, fuck him. You

1551
02:05:19,159 --> 02:05:21,640
know that's our policy. You know you would you would

1552
02:05:21,640 --> 02:05:24,880
you would you attack? Uh, you attacked the agents of

1553
02:05:24,920 --> 02:05:27,720
the crown like we're we're gonna kill your people, and

1554
02:05:27,840 --> 02:05:31,920
mostly said that's barbaric, Like you can't do that, you know.

1555
02:05:32,039 --> 02:05:35,199
He's like, I can't, I can't co sign this. You

1556
02:05:35,279 --> 02:05:40,520
can't murder regular Catholic people because because our our guys

1557
02:05:40,560 --> 02:05:42,760
are going down in theater, you know, and he's like,

1558
02:05:42,920 --> 02:05:44,880
I don't care what the what the IRA those you

1559
02:05:44,960 --> 02:05:50,279
can't do that, you know. Uh So obviously the Alston

1560
02:05:50,399 --> 02:05:53,119
man like, uh a corp of them looking at them like, well,

1561
02:05:53,199 --> 02:05:56,680
what do you like tags or something, you know, race trader,

1562
02:05:56,960 --> 02:06:01,439
class trader, you know like it. Uh So, this is

1563
02:06:01,479 --> 02:06:05,840
where he was at. And in the sixties one of

1564
02:06:05,880 --> 02:06:07,880
the inter one of the when he was doing his

1565
02:06:08,359 --> 02:06:10,800
kind of like round of interviews late in life. He

1566
02:06:10,920 --> 02:06:14,079
popped up a lot on British media in the sixties

1567
02:06:14,119 --> 02:06:18,479
and early seventies, and one of these typical uh BBC

1568
02:06:18,760 --> 02:06:22,960
types was was, you know, trying to put him on

1569
02:06:23,000 --> 02:06:27,800
the spot a matter's of race and stuff. And this

1570
02:06:28,000 --> 02:06:29,960
especially too, because this is one like you know, Powell

1571
02:06:30,239 --> 02:06:33,399
was at the peak of his of his clout and

1572
02:06:33,520 --> 02:06:35,920
Moldy said, look, you know, he's like, you know what

1573
02:06:36,039 --> 02:06:40,000
happened to me. He's like, he's like the he's like

1574
02:06:40,079 --> 02:06:43,119
my own former comrade has wanted to be dead because

1575
02:06:43,159 --> 02:06:47,119
I took the side of the Irish you know in

1576
02:06:47,439 --> 02:06:49,880
a sense, you know, like he said that Alston needs

1577
02:06:49,920 --> 02:06:51,840
to be partitioned and get part of the UK. But

1578
02:06:51,920 --> 02:06:55,600
he's like, let let let the republic go. Don't try

1579
02:06:55,640 --> 02:06:59,600
and force him into some kind of in the into

1580
02:06:59,640 --> 02:07:04,439
some kind kind of a you know, like like treat

1581
02:07:04,479 --> 02:07:08,720
them as men, you know, don't and don't try and

1582
02:07:08,800 --> 02:07:12,039
force them into into some kind of lesser dominion status

1583
02:07:12,119 --> 02:07:15,399
as the price of a home rule. But he said,

1584
02:07:15,439 --> 02:07:17,960
he's like, look, he's like, I was in the same

1585
02:07:18,039 --> 02:07:21,479
position as people on the right were who opposed the

1586
02:07:21,600 --> 02:07:24,079
Vietnam War. He's like, I couldn't cotton what was going

1587
02:07:24,119 --> 02:07:26,319
on here? You know. He's like, you think I did that?

1588
02:07:26,840 --> 02:07:28,520
He's like, how did that help my life? You know?

1589
02:07:28,640 --> 02:07:31,359
Did that? Did that win me friends? Did it win

1590
02:07:31,479 --> 02:07:33,880
me influence? You know? It's like I became a pariah,

1591
02:07:34,039 --> 02:07:36,760
like among my own people, you know. And he's like,

1592
02:07:36,920 --> 02:07:40,079
I what what did I get out of that? You know?

1593
02:07:40,199 --> 02:07:43,199
And like he and he had a point because mostly

1594
02:07:43,640 --> 02:07:49,720
regardless of what the court of public opinion, regardless of

1595
02:07:49,720 --> 02:07:53,840
the tenor of it, you know, he did what he

1596
02:07:53,920 --> 02:08:01,359
did according to principle. And apparently he was right on

1597
02:08:01,520 --> 02:08:03,760
basically all counts. I part ways of them, on the

1598
02:08:05,720 --> 02:08:10,279
on the issue of on the issue of Ireland. In

1599
02:08:10,359 --> 02:08:17,920
some respects qualifiedly. But you know, I as we get

1600
02:08:18,000 --> 02:08:25,199
some distance between, you know, as living memory of the warriors,

1601
02:08:25,439 --> 02:08:29,680
uh fades into the rear view mirror, and the bully

1602
02:08:29,760 --> 02:08:33,560
pulpit is no more. You know, people actually can speak

1603
02:08:33,680 --> 02:08:37,239
on the twentieth century and objective terms, like you can't

1604
02:08:37,279 --> 02:08:39,680
say like mostly was wrong, Okay, what the UK is

1605
02:08:40,000 --> 02:08:43,319
a better society now they're doing great, you know. I

1606
02:08:43,399 --> 02:08:48,279
mean it's I it's not going to be able to

1607
02:08:48,279 --> 02:08:52,760
perpetuate itself beyond another generation like like that doesn't mean

1608
02:08:52,880 --> 02:08:54,279
like the white rays in the UK is going to

1609
02:08:54,319 --> 02:08:57,520
go extinct or something, but it's not in a good place,

1610
02:08:58,800 --> 02:09:03,760
you know. But this is key And I'm giving Moldy

1611
02:09:03,840 --> 02:09:07,760
more time than probably some historical others a revisionist would,

1612
02:09:07,800 --> 02:09:13,359
because he's fundamentally important, you know. And I don't think

1613
02:09:13,560 --> 02:09:21,079
he's granted enough ink or enough content. But you know,

1614
02:09:21,399 --> 02:09:26,760
this was a big deal, like the courses his career

1615
02:09:26,880 --> 02:09:29,640
took as a parliamentarian. I can't remember got into this

1616
02:09:29,760 --> 02:09:32,079
last time or not, and correct me if I'm repeating myself,

1617
02:09:32,159 --> 02:09:35,479
and I'll jump ahead. But you know, Lloyd George one

1618
02:09:35,479 --> 02:09:38,199
of the things, one of the main catalysts or Mosey

1619
02:09:38,399 --> 02:09:42,680
wanting to pursue a parliamentarian's career, was to give his

1620
02:09:42,800 --> 02:09:45,920
hero worship of Lloyd George and okay, known as the

1621
02:09:46,000 --> 02:09:54,079
Shell Scandal, when George was the Armaments Minister and he

1622
02:09:54,159 --> 02:09:58,960
insinumented himself under that role because owing to what was

1623
02:09:58,960 --> 02:10:02,319
called the shell crisis in nineteen fifteen, you know, there

1624
02:10:02,439 --> 02:10:06,359
was there was a cash outic shortage of shells for

1625
02:10:06,960 --> 02:10:12,920
her heavy guns. So the British Expeditionary Force they basically

1626
02:10:13,039 --> 02:10:16,199
had no capability to bring in direct fire to bear

1627
02:10:16,359 --> 02:10:21,520
on on on the enemy, you know, and they, uh,

1628
02:10:21,920 --> 02:10:28,279
they got they got slaughtered. And Lloyd George he became

1629
02:10:28,520 --> 02:10:33,960
he became a hero to the front line soldiers, you know,

1630
02:10:34,199 --> 02:10:38,159
airman as well as uh as well as as the

1631
02:10:38,239 --> 02:10:45,680
ground element in the infantry and uh, you know not

1632
02:10:45,880 --> 02:10:49,199
not just because George stood up to these kinds of

1633
02:10:49,319 --> 02:10:53,760
stalesman inturts. And George had an aristocratic background, but he

1634
02:10:53,840 --> 02:10:57,319
didn't really have any clout with with with big business

1635
02:10:57,439 --> 02:11:05,680
and and in the industrial concern. Okay. But but mostly

1636
02:11:05,800 --> 02:11:07,960
turning on George, George is almost kind of like his

1637
02:11:08,119 --> 02:11:10,720
father figure too, you know, because like we talked about,

1638
02:11:10,960 --> 02:11:15,520
mostly had a very unhappy family life, despite the fact

1639
02:11:15,560 --> 02:11:18,159
that he'd minimized that nag like he had this great

1640
02:11:18,239 --> 02:11:20,960
upbringing like he didn't. He was very close to his mom,

1641
02:11:21,039 --> 02:11:24,960
but his father was what was a real bully and

1642
02:11:26,079 --> 02:11:30,600
and and just like a shitty guy. And unfortunately moy

1643
02:11:30,720 --> 02:11:34,680
Mosely never had his is gambling and drinking vices, but

1644
02:11:35,399 --> 02:11:40,079
he certainly had his He certainly had his pussy hunting

1645
02:11:40,079 --> 02:11:43,359
advice with me and crass and that that was definitely

1646
02:11:43,399 --> 02:11:47,479
not admirable. And it led to some really ugly incidents

1647
02:11:47,520 --> 02:11:49,880
in Mosty's personal life, and it alienated him from his

1648
02:11:50,000 --> 02:11:54,880
friends and all kinds of other things. But you know,

1649
02:11:55,079 --> 02:12:02,880
the so what Mosey lost by basically defecting from kind

1650
02:12:02,960 --> 02:12:08,439
of liberal union slash Tory coalition, I mean that they

1651
02:12:08,439 --> 02:12:11,399
said a cadis droving effect on his personal life. You know,

1652
02:12:11,600 --> 02:12:15,760
it can't be said to have been some dolculated decision.

1653
02:12:16,079 --> 02:12:22,359
But to take us back a bit, how Mosley got

1654
02:12:22,439 --> 02:12:27,920
to this point where a house a common see, it

1655
02:12:28,039 --> 02:12:33,760
was a real ability. July nineteen eighteen, that's when he

1656
02:12:33,880 --> 02:12:37,279
was rendered declared quote permanently unfit. That's the equipment of

1657
02:12:37,359 --> 02:12:43,760
being you know, totally disabled under like via criteria. And

1658
02:12:43,960 --> 02:12:46,920
around this time he was hanging around a lady named

1659
02:12:46,960 --> 02:12:52,880
Maxine Elliott. Maxine Elliott. She was kind of like some

1660
02:12:52,960 --> 02:12:56,479
of the Yacki's female patrons. She was like an older lady.

1661
02:12:56,760 --> 02:13:01,720
She'd been a silent film actress who have some repute,

1662
02:13:02,199 --> 02:13:06,640
and she owned her own studio. And there was only

1663
02:13:06,680 --> 02:13:10,319
a handful of like actual movie studios in those days,

1664
02:13:10,399 --> 02:13:13,640
you know, like nineteen teens, like let alone, like some

1665
02:13:13,840 --> 02:13:16,119
lady and some actress like owning one like that was

1666
02:13:16,159 --> 02:13:18,720
a big deal, especially consider that the stuff was all

1667
02:13:18,920 --> 02:13:22,119
run by by gangsters. You know. This was this was

1668
02:13:22,199 --> 02:13:27,079
like the cusp of Silver age Hollywood. But Maxid Elliott

1669
02:13:27,079 --> 02:13:30,680
was American, but she'd she'd relocated to the to the UK.

1670
02:13:33,800 --> 02:13:35,960
Her kind of common law husband. I can't remem if

1671
02:13:36,000 --> 02:13:40,680
they were actually married or not. He was a younger guy.

1672
02:13:41,279 --> 02:13:43,439
He was a Pommie. He was like an Englishman but

1673
02:13:43,520 --> 02:13:49,640
who had Australian citizenship. He was a younger guy because

1674
02:13:49,720 --> 02:13:52,399
Maxy and Elliott was still she still had her feminine

1675
02:13:52,439 --> 02:13:55,800
wiles in the Middle Age. And he answered the call

1676
02:13:55,920 --> 02:13:58,079
to go fight in World War One, and like within

1677
02:13:58,239 --> 02:14:00,760
days of being deployed to the front, he got killed,

1678
02:14:02,760 --> 02:14:06,319
so she was really heartbroken, and she dedicated herself to

1679
02:14:06,399 --> 02:14:09,159
these kinds of charitable relief efforts, you know, for like

1680
02:14:09,239 --> 02:14:12,359
civilians impacted by the war, but in like a real way,

1681
02:14:12,560 --> 02:14:15,039
not in like a lame like bono way, like look

1682
02:14:15,079 --> 02:14:17,239
at me, I'm so great, you know, Like she was

1683
02:14:17,239 --> 02:14:19,119
a little key about it, but you know she threw

1684
02:14:19,119 --> 02:14:22,880
her substantial fortune at it, like relief for like displaced

1685
02:14:22,960 --> 02:14:28,600
persons and stuff like that. But she also she she

1686
02:14:28,880 --> 02:14:33,399
she liked, you know, she was into soldiers. And there's

1687
02:14:33,439 --> 02:14:36,880
no evidence that Moseley and her like were had like

1688
02:14:37,239 --> 02:14:39,880
a romantic relationship. And by that point, I mean he

1689
02:14:39,960 --> 02:14:42,239
was with the kid. He was like nineteen twenty years old,

1690
02:14:42,279 --> 02:14:44,840
and she was, you know, she was she was like

1691
02:14:44,920 --> 02:14:47,239
in her fifties or something, so that that probably was

1692
02:14:47,279 --> 02:14:51,479
not on the table. But you know, she these kinds

1693
02:14:51,520 --> 02:14:56,640
of uh she had a lot of like right wing studs,

1694
02:14:56,680 --> 02:14:58,600
as we'd think about it, kind of like in her orbit,

1695
02:14:58,680 --> 02:15:01,640
and she like she like guy's hanging around to her state,

1696
02:15:01,800 --> 02:15:05,239
and a lot of Churchill's cronies that kind of call

1697
02:15:05,359 --> 02:15:07,840
honor to you know, try and sort of like win

1698
02:15:07,920 --> 02:15:11,319
her favor. Because Churchill was always sort of money, you know,

1699
02:15:11,439 --> 02:15:14,439
and and and obviously like they were snoozing around for money.

1700
02:15:14,560 --> 02:15:19,680
And uh the uh Freddie guest. If that's not like

1701
02:15:19,720 --> 02:15:21,640
a Limey name, I don't know what is. But he was.

1702
02:15:22,199 --> 02:15:26,000
He was. He was the chief whip of Lloyd George's, uh,

1703
02:15:26,479 --> 02:15:30,319
the Lloyd George Liberals in the Coalition government. And he

1704
02:15:30,439 --> 02:15:32,800
was actually a cousin and like a crony at Churchill.

1705
02:15:33,520 --> 02:15:38,199
Like he he was always hanging around and uh because

1706
02:15:38,199 --> 02:15:40,479
of Moseley's, because of Max and Elliot, it's like an

1707
02:15:40,520 --> 02:15:45,039
affinity for Moseley just opened a lot of doors for

1708
02:15:45,239 --> 02:15:50,560
him in part okay, and I guess uh, she and

1709
02:15:50,640 --> 02:15:54,159
some of her male friends, they really encouraged Moseley and

1710
02:15:54,199 --> 02:15:56,319
told him like, look, like you've got to represent the

1711
02:15:56,359 --> 02:15:59,039
war generation in Parliament because like we don't have a voice,

1712
02:15:59,520 --> 02:16:02,039
you know, like the front fighters don't have a voice

1713
02:16:02,079 --> 02:16:04,560
in the House of Commons. And even like Lloyd George

1714
02:16:04,640 --> 02:16:07,000
is a good man and he helped us when we

1715
02:16:07,119 --> 02:16:10,840
were under fire, literally, but he even he doesn't really understand,

1716
02:16:12,039 --> 02:16:17,760
you know. So the guy really stepped in. It's got

1717
02:16:17,800 --> 02:16:22,640
a Mosey's patron was Sir Harold Nicholson, who was a

1718
02:16:22,720 --> 02:16:29,239
really crazy guy, like like literally Mosey had met him

1719
02:16:29,880 --> 02:16:37,719
when Sandhurst initially had expelled him Sanders Military Academy, when

1720
02:16:37,760 --> 02:16:40,319
Mosey was a cadet, he had a rivalry with some

1721
02:16:40,399 --> 02:16:43,399
other upper classmen. This is this is when Moses was

1722
02:16:43,440 --> 02:16:48,879
still you know, a polo player before he transitioned to

1723
02:16:49,000 --> 02:16:53,360
boxing and then fencing. But uh, this guy was some

1724
02:16:53,520 --> 02:16:56,479
upper classmen polo star and Mosey straight up and knocked

1725
02:16:56,559 --> 02:16:58,799
him out I think in the dining hall and obviously

1726
02:16:59,000 --> 02:17:03,840
like much as uh, Sanders cultivated and kind of control

1727
02:17:03,879 --> 02:17:07,920
the loudishness, like chin shaking upper class man like that's

1728
02:17:08,000 --> 02:17:11,360
not how we do things in the British army. But Nicholson,

1729
02:17:11,399 --> 02:17:15,440
who knew Moseley, and Nicholson was pretty obviously gay. He

1730
02:17:15,639 --> 02:17:18,879
like he had a wife who who left him for

1731
02:17:18,920 --> 02:17:22,159
a time for another woman, like very decadent aristocrat stuff.

1732
02:17:22,200 --> 02:17:26,520
But uh, Nicholson, Uh, I think he I think it's

1733
02:17:26,600 --> 02:17:29,000
clear like he was he was like literally attracted to

1734
02:17:29,079 --> 02:17:32,760
Mosley and that was not reciprocated in sexual terms. But

1735
02:17:33,399 --> 02:17:37,959
Nicholson intervened and he basically pulled strings, like look, give

1736
02:17:39,200 --> 02:17:42,239
given Mosey another chance. You know, it's important to me

1737
02:17:42,600 --> 02:17:45,719
and you know, you you you you want my cloud

1738
02:17:45,799 --> 02:17:48,440
to approve my money so that that goes away if

1739
02:17:48,479 --> 02:17:56,239
Mosey doesn't, you know, get get a second chance. But uh,

1740
02:17:57,559 --> 02:18:00,239
Nicholson was an interesting guy, I mean aside for him,

1741
02:18:00,399 --> 02:18:02,959
like whatever the generate habits he had in his personal life.

1742
02:18:03,520 --> 02:18:07,559
He'd been born in Tehran, you know, when when Tehran

1743
02:18:07,760 --> 02:18:11,440
was the capital of Persia, like properly Persia. He was

1744
02:18:11,479 --> 02:18:17,479
the youngest son uh the Baron of Karnak one, Arthur Nicholson.

1745
02:18:18,040 --> 02:18:20,440
So he spent his childhood like all over the world.

1746
02:18:20,879 --> 02:18:22,639
You know, He's been posted at Saint Peter's or his

1747
02:18:22,680 --> 02:18:25,159
fat like his family posted at Saint Petersburg, to Madrid,

1748
02:18:25,319 --> 02:18:30,879
the Bulgaria, to uh the Tangiers or Tangier thinking like Casino.

1749
02:18:32,200 --> 02:18:38,319
But uh he you know, he uh he staked out

1750
02:18:38,319 --> 02:18:41,600
a career in the Foreign Office by the time uh,

1751
02:18:42,799 --> 02:18:46,159
you know Moseley, he made Moses acquaintance. And so when

1752
02:18:46,200 --> 02:18:52,319
Moseley got you know permanently uh like discharged in the army,

1753
02:18:53,040 --> 02:18:59,040
Nicholson got him a job with the Foreign Office and uh,

1754
02:19:00,399 --> 02:19:02,239
you know made sure that he had what he needed,

1755
02:19:02,479 --> 02:19:12,959
you know it. And Nicholson had a had a heterodox perspective. Yeah,

1756
02:19:12,959 --> 02:19:16,319
he's very much. He was very much part of the

1757
02:19:16,399 --> 02:19:20,799
war party, you know, once hostilities got underway, but he

1758
02:19:20,879 --> 02:19:25,840
had no truck with the you know, the the kind

1759
02:19:25,840 --> 02:19:31,879
of incessant war mongering that you know towards the Germans

1760
02:19:31,920 --> 02:19:34,559
that emerged from some quarters. You know, like we talked

1761
02:19:34,600 --> 02:19:38,079
about in some of our previous series, this wasn't just

1762
02:19:38,639 --> 02:19:45,799
demented people like like vance Attart. I mean, obviously people

1763
02:19:45,879 --> 02:19:49,000
like him led the charge in critical ways, but the

1764
02:19:49,079 --> 02:19:52,959
empire was really rutnerless, and as we see in America,

1765
02:19:54,120 --> 02:19:58,440
you know, since nineteen eighty nine and especially in the

1766
02:19:58,479 --> 02:20:00,879
twenty first century, you know, last twenty five years in

1767
02:20:00,959 --> 02:20:05,440
earnest you know whether I mean, there aren't empire's original

1768
02:20:05,520 --> 02:20:07,920
sense anymore. But you know, if you're talking about an

1769
02:20:07,920 --> 02:20:13,079
empire or superpower, or you're talking about any political structure

1770
02:20:13,120 --> 02:20:20,479
at scale, if it doesn't have a dedicated oppositional actor

1771
02:20:22,559 --> 02:20:26,639
towards which the kind of orient policy and can like

1772
02:20:26,719 --> 02:20:30,959
can figure the literal architecture of the state, this causes

1773
02:20:31,040 --> 02:20:33,719
real problems. You know. So there was this kind of

1774
02:20:33,920 --> 02:20:39,760
need to keep Germany and the figurative in literal gun sights,

1775
02:20:40,600 --> 02:20:42,840
you know, to a lot of these kinds of government careers.

1776
02:20:43,000 --> 02:20:45,559
But Nicolson really wasn't like that. And that's one of

1777
02:20:45,639 --> 02:20:51,040
the reasons why if there's something that exonerates or validates

1778
02:20:51,120 --> 02:20:55,639
the claim that you need traditional aristocracy in government as

1779
02:20:55,719 --> 02:20:59,959
like a moderating tendency, and that's kind of what under

1780
02:21:00,120 --> 02:21:02,600
lies a lot of would people like cons from an

1781
02:21:02,680 --> 02:21:07,239
hop advocate, like if you read between the lines, I

1782
02:21:07,280 --> 02:21:10,000
don't I don't particularly shut that perspective, but it's it's

1783
02:21:10,040 --> 02:21:13,159
a serious perspective. And in the story of a record,

1784
02:21:13,200 --> 02:21:17,079
I'd say guys like Nicholson kind of represent the tendency.

1785
02:21:20,200 --> 02:21:31,200
But uh, Nicholson also he'd been close to Sir Eric Drummond, who,

1786
02:21:32,000 --> 02:21:37,639
like he worked as a private secretary Nicholson did, and

1787
02:21:37,920 --> 02:21:41,280
Drummond was the first Secretary General of the League of Nations. Okay,

1788
02:21:42,120 --> 02:21:44,319
So I think a lot of a lot of Moses

1789
02:21:44,479 --> 02:21:46,879
early ideas on Okay, we can take a League of

1790
02:21:47,000 --> 02:21:51,200
Nations and look forget the utopian uh you know, kind

1791
02:21:51,239 --> 02:21:57,799
of uh flourish around it when it's discussed in chambers

1792
02:21:59,159 --> 02:22:02,280
as well as public wise. We can we can transform

1793
02:22:02,360 --> 02:22:07,479
this into a collective security apparatus, you know, which is

1794
02:22:07,520 --> 02:22:12,600
desperately needed, you know, and I speculate that came directly

1795
02:22:12,639 --> 02:22:18,520
from Nicholson, and that's uh, you know that this is

1796
02:22:18,600 --> 02:22:23,879
remotely derived uh this stuff. Nicholson gross the offended, uh

1797
02:22:24,959 --> 02:22:29,760
General Raise A Khan, Raise a Coon deposed uh the

1798
02:22:29,879 --> 02:22:36,280
last shot and instaned himself under the peacock throne. It

1799
02:22:36,559 --> 02:22:40,360
Uh Nicholson said that Raisa Khan was quote a bullet

1800
02:22:40,399 --> 02:22:45,239
headed man with the voice of a sickly child. That

1801
02:22:45,360 --> 02:22:48,399
probably sounds a lot more devastating if you if you

1802
02:22:48,520 --> 02:22:52,120
put like the gloss of an estuary accent on it.

1803
02:22:52,280 --> 02:22:55,760
But this made this made uh, this made Raise A

1804
02:22:55,799 --> 02:22:59,040
Kon really upset, and it made like all the Iranians

1805
02:22:59,079 --> 02:23:02,360
really upset, and so it made the Foreign Office upset

1806
02:23:02,399 --> 02:23:05,719
as the consequence of that, and uh, Nicholson kind of

1807
02:23:05,920 --> 02:23:08,639
got was like out bad from then on. But uh,

1808
02:23:09,760 --> 02:23:13,040
you know, he but by that point, you know, he'd

1809
02:23:13,680 --> 02:23:20,639
he'd already kind of helped nudge Mosey along in the

1810
02:23:20,719 --> 02:23:29,600
ways that he needed. But the uh, sorry let me

1811
02:23:29,680 --> 02:23:37,799
call my outline here. Yeah, mostly when he finally uh,

1812
02:23:40,280 --> 02:23:47,120
the constituency that finally adopted him was a hero, which

1813
02:23:47,159 --> 02:23:52,200
is no longer a constituency in the House of Commons.

1814
02:23:53,120 --> 02:23:57,959
I I'm all bore the subs with the kind of

1815
02:23:58,000 --> 02:24:03,719
finer points of like UK remandering. But uh, it was

1816
02:24:06,200 --> 02:24:08,159
you know, mostly kind of seemed like a good fit

1817
02:24:08,600 --> 02:24:13,239
because if not in terms of true geography or class

1818
02:24:13,600 --> 02:24:18,200
or character or vocation of the constituents, it was very

1819
02:24:18,280 --> 02:24:20,719
much kind of like in spirit, like a Middle England

1820
02:24:20,799 --> 02:24:26,239
constituency and you know, having a guy who wasn't a

1821
02:24:26,280 --> 02:24:29,680
traditional aristocrat, but he had some of that pedigree and

1822
02:24:29,799 --> 02:24:32,000
it was a war hero and basically had a marshall

1823
02:24:32,040 --> 02:24:36,239
bearing like it's it was like a natural fit, you know.

1824
02:24:39,079 --> 02:24:46,840
And that's uh where he found himself. It's uh, you know,

1825
02:24:46,920 --> 02:24:51,600
and it's significant too because obviously like a patriotic guy

1826
02:24:51,760 --> 02:24:56,840
like Mosley, especially like a young guy, you know, he'd

1827
02:24:59,000 --> 02:25:02,959
he'd intended, uh when he first entertained the possibility of

1828
02:25:03,079 --> 02:25:06,719
going into politics, you know, to enter as a Conservative

1829
02:25:06,760 --> 02:25:09,680
member of parliament, you know. And uh, he had no

1830
02:25:09,840 --> 02:25:14,319
university education because he'd been in the service. You know,

1831
02:25:16,000 --> 02:25:19,239
he was driven basically by you know, a kind of

1832
02:25:19,680 --> 02:25:23,760
passionate like English patriotism and like a belief in the

1833
02:25:23,879 --> 02:25:28,440
Empire and you know, the Church of England and the

1834
02:25:28,479 --> 02:25:35,879
British army and the fact that uh, I mean, don't

1835
02:25:35,920 --> 02:25:38,600
get me wrong, like the Liberal unions were an essential

1836
02:25:38,680 --> 02:25:43,719
part of that coalition, but they were something different, you know.

1837
02:25:45,559 --> 02:25:47,799
And this also, this is why he was in demand.

1838
02:25:48,319 --> 02:25:52,000
You know, both conservatives and labor we're trying to poach

1839
02:25:52,120 --> 02:25:57,559
him for to fill their vacancies, you know, for the

1840
02:25:57,639 --> 02:26:02,159
reasons we just talked about. And the fact that he

1841
02:26:02,879 --> 02:26:07,520
got taken in by the unionist waging of the Liberals

1842
02:26:08,319 --> 02:26:12,559
and then upon becoming privy to what was actually going

1843
02:26:12,680 --> 02:26:21,680
on as regards the Crown's response to Finian guerrilla activity,

1844
02:26:23,000 --> 02:26:27,040
you know, he basically defected. I mean that that's kind

1845
02:26:27,079 --> 02:26:31,159
of a pure crisis of conscience. We can't look inside

1846
02:26:31,440 --> 02:26:35,000
of the mind of any man or woman, and even

1847
02:26:35,040 --> 02:26:40,520
if you know somebody intimately, there remain idiosyncrasies that render

1848
02:26:40,920 --> 02:26:45,600
judgments like that pig. But so so we can derive

1849
02:26:46,319 --> 02:26:49,520
or speculate on the motives of any man in public

1850
02:26:49,639 --> 02:26:53,799
life with any semblance of accuracy. I don't think there's

1851
02:26:53,799 --> 02:26:56,680
any case that is more kind of clear cut than

1852
02:26:56,719 --> 02:27:01,959
that of Moseley and is change age of heart as

1853
02:27:02,040 --> 02:27:18,239
it were. But yeah, the U interestingly two, but it

1854
02:27:18,440 --> 02:27:25,639
tracks with the epoch. Well, it was an early cheamsy

1855
02:27:25,719 --> 02:27:34,079
and disciple and I believe that in part when you

1856
02:27:34,159 --> 02:27:38,799
look at like what the BUF program was in terms

1857
02:27:38,840 --> 02:27:45,680
of how it broke down uh management of labor and

1858
02:27:45,799 --> 02:27:52,399
capital into these publicly managed corporations quite literally, and you know,

1859
02:27:52,600 --> 02:27:55,680
key industry was subsidized, well at the same time abandoning

1860
02:27:55,840 --> 02:27:59,920
a protectionist regime of tariffs. That's one hundred percent key,

1861
02:28:01,120 --> 02:28:07,440
you know. And uh, I'm very much I'm very much

1862
02:28:07,440 --> 02:28:10,399
an American and I'm a diet in the little supply sider,

1863
02:28:11,719 --> 02:28:13,760
you know. I mean, Keynes is garbage, and I know

1864
02:28:13,879 --> 02:28:18,280
something about economics, but you've got to put this in context.

1865
02:28:19,559 --> 02:28:23,120
There were no supply siders in the nineteen twenties. Okay.

1866
02:28:24,600 --> 02:28:28,559
The idea was industrial capitalism. Not only does it lead

1867
02:28:28,680 --> 02:28:35,959
to intolerably catastrophic outcomes to the working classes, like you know,

1868
02:28:36,200 --> 02:28:39,719
a true trafty of the commons, a global scale, but

1869
02:28:41,760 --> 02:28:44,959
pre information age and even pre digital age, when you

1870
02:28:45,079 --> 02:28:51,799
literally had accountants dealing with corporations that in some cases

1871
02:28:51,920 --> 02:28:55,479
were global in scale and they were keeping the books

1872
02:28:55,799 --> 02:29:01,600
with an abacus. Okay, you understand how people would think, like, well,

1873
02:29:01,879 --> 02:29:05,159
the only way to eliminate uncertainties leading to catastrophe, and

1874
02:29:05,239 --> 02:29:12,559
the only way to manage critical shortfalls in you know,

1875
02:29:12,639 --> 02:29:17,000
the ability of a capitalistic structure to provide for human

1876
02:29:17,120 --> 02:29:22,799
needs is if we basically like plan you know, from inception,

1877
02:29:23,600 --> 02:29:26,799
you know, like what our production schema is as much

1878
02:29:26,840 --> 02:29:29,920
as possible without killing the golden goose. Like that's where

1879
02:29:29,959 --> 02:29:33,040
a lot of this came from. Okay, and then obviously

1880
02:29:33,120 --> 02:29:35,200
after ninety twenty nine it was it was just like

1881
02:29:35,200 --> 02:29:37,479
an absolute you know, that's just this is the way

1882
02:29:37,559 --> 02:29:42,799
things are. There was no countervailing tendency. That's why people,

1883
02:29:43,200 --> 02:29:45,120
I mean, some of these people it's dishonest. I'm talking

1884
02:29:45,120 --> 02:29:48,719
about like academic types or like oh, you know Hitler

1885
02:29:48,879 --> 02:29:52,000
was a socialist who didn't really believe in capitalism, or oh,

1886
02:29:52,040 --> 02:29:55,000
you know, Moseley was just another labor right you know,

1887
02:29:55,159 --> 02:29:57,760
but you know he was also a racist. That's not

1888
02:29:58,559 --> 02:30:03,319
that that's that's completely off, just in brass tacks terms.

1889
02:30:04,200 --> 02:30:09,120
You know. If people want more complete treatment of that,

1890
02:30:10,360 --> 02:30:14,040
Reid Murray Rothbard's hifty The Great Depression, or read what

1891
02:30:15,840 --> 02:30:19,239
read what James Burnham wrote about macroeconomics, and he wrote

1892
02:30:19,239 --> 02:30:21,559
more than one might think. It was most in the

1893
02:30:21,680 --> 02:30:27,319
form of submissions to periodicals and essays. But you know,

1894
02:30:27,520 --> 02:30:32,920
the there there was no really until the seventies. This

1895
02:30:33,200 --> 02:30:37,079
is just the way people thought, you know, at least

1896
02:30:37,120 --> 02:30:40,600
in the quarters that mattered. I cite Shumpeter all the time,

1897
02:30:40,680 --> 02:30:46,840
because Schumpeter really was Uh. Shelter's two value magnum ope

1898
02:30:46,959 --> 02:30:53,200
is business cycles. It's an incredibly difficult read, but I

1899
02:30:53,319 --> 02:30:58,040
consider it to be the most important statement on economics

1900
02:30:58,079 --> 02:31:00,520
of the twentieth century. And I'll die in that hill.

1901
02:31:02,040 --> 02:31:04,719
But beyond that, it's also it's a director of buttal

1902
02:31:04,760 --> 02:31:11,159
two keys. Okay, but that's that's viewed as very heterodotx

1903
02:31:11,399 --> 02:31:25,079
these days, unfortunately. But uh, but when mostly entered politics,

1904
02:31:25,639 --> 02:31:32,239
the uh, the war was still raging in nineteen eighteen.

1905
02:31:33,959 --> 02:31:36,680
You know, the degree to which an entire generation of

1906
02:31:37,440 --> 02:31:43,239
of of British youth got blown to hell in France

1907
02:31:43,319 --> 02:31:46,479
and Belgium, they can't really be overstated. Like one of

1908
02:31:46,520 --> 02:31:50,959
the things this is on my mind. And forgive you

1909
02:31:51,040 --> 02:31:54,000
this too tangential or or people think it's a corny

1910
02:31:55,319 --> 02:32:01,719
thing to invoke this symbolic precedent. But I mean, let's know,

1911
02:32:01,760 --> 02:32:06,200
a lot of Pink Floyd lately. I I really liked

1912
02:32:06,200 --> 02:32:08,799
their last record, The Division Bell, and obviously that's the

1913
02:32:08,879 --> 02:32:12,159
Gilmore era. But uh, I was rewatching the Wall while

1914
02:32:12,159 --> 02:32:14,840
I was like working on some long form stuff and uh,

1915
02:32:16,079 --> 02:32:20,520
you know there's two uh you know the segment where

1916
02:32:21,200 --> 02:32:24,680
Hank's obviously Roger Waters. He's like this little kid and

1917
02:32:24,760 --> 02:32:27,319
he's at the park and like nobody nobody's a father.

1918
02:32:27,440 --> 02:32:29,840
It's much like women and old men and little kids.

1919
02:32:30,840 --> 02:32:37,040
And obviously Water's dad died in the war. You know

1920
02:32:37,079 --> 02:32:39,200
that That's the way it was. It's like there was

1921
02:32:39,239 --> 02:32:47,799
just like this missing generation. You know. The UK recovered somewhat,

1922
02:32:48,399 --> 02:32:53,959
Germany bounced back demographically. France never recovered, and that's one

1923
02:32:53,959 --> 02:32:56,399
of the things that took them down as a great power.

1924
02:32:56,920 --> 02:33:02,600
But in any events, at nineteen seventeen became nineteen eighteen,

1925
02:33:04,079 --> 02:33:06,120
there basically was no more manpower. So there was a

1926
02:33:06,200 --> 02:33:09,000
bunch of like raw teenage conscripts who were like taking

1927
02:33:09,319 --> 02:33:15,079
the place in these uh line companies that had suffered

1928
02:33:15,159 --> 02:33:18,479
catastrot like one hundred and fifty percent attrition, you know,

1929
02:33:18,680 --> 02:33:22,799
so there was there was no enthusiasm to continue this conflict.

1930
02:33:23,319 --> 02:33:24,440
You know, it was like it was a bunch of

1931
02:33:24,680 --> 02:33:27,440
there was a bunch of high school age boys like

1932
02:33:27,639 --> 02:33:29,920
being like ripped off the farm or like ripped out

1933
02:33:29,959 --> 02:33:32,760
of the factory, and they're like mom and Dad's house

1934
02:33:32,840 --> 02:33:36,200
and like sent to the slaughter and nobody was coming home,

1935
02:33:37,360 --> 02:33:41,319
you know. So the end of the war, when the

1936
02:33:41,479 --> 02:33:45,760
armistice finally arrived, there was just like tremendous kind of

1937
02:33:45,840 --> 02:33:50,360
like outpouring of emotion, no less from you know, Molesey himself,

1938
02:33:50,479 --> 02:33:57,040
who who who'd been there, you know, and when the

1939
02:33:57,159 --> 02:34:03,159
armistice was signed. It's interesting. Mosey's oldest son, Nicholas Moseley,

1940
02:34:04,760 --> 02:34:06,840
he said that he never saw his dad. He said,

1941
02:34:06,920 --> 02:34:09,639
he said his dad was like impassioned and like emotional

1942
02:34:09,680 --> 02:34:12,360
in the sense that he'd get very fervent and angry.

1943
02:34:13,360 --> 02:34:15,479
But he said he never saw he never saw him

1944
02:34:15,479 --> 02:34:20,000
get emotional in terms of, you know, losing control of

1945
02:34:20,120 --> 02:34:24,520
his of his feelings, other than when he discussed the war.

1946
02:34:25,239 --> 02:34:28,559
And Nicholas Mosey said, he said, anytime World War One

1947
02:34:28,639 --> 02:34:33,079
came up, his father like he'd speak like with a

1948
02:34:33,159 --> 02:34:37,760
genuine sense of horror, you know. And uh, Nicholas said

1949
02:34:37,760 --> 02:34:39,600
a few times he saw like cures well up in

1950
02:34:39,680 --> 02:34:43,399
his eyes, just with people in casually bring up the

1951
02:34:43,440 --> 02:34:46,200
war and like Mosey would like recuse himself like that,

1952
02:34:46,319 --> 02:34:50,760
this wasn't an act, you know, and so like the

1953
02:34:50,959 --> 02:34:54,639
enormity of his experience it kind of caused him like

1954
02:34:54,719 --> 02:34:59,799
re examined things, you know. And he he made this

1955
02:35:00,040 --> 02:35:05,959
statement later in life after the BUF days after World

1956
02:35:06,000 --> 02:35:15,680
War Two, but before he began uh pushing uh the

1957
02:35:16,559 --> 02:35:24,159
the revitalized uh europe a nation concept, Like he said that, uh,

1958
02:35:24,719 --> 02:35:29,719
you know. The reason why, like providence or fate, I

1959
02:35:29,760 --> 02:35:34,239
think is what he assigned as the causal agent had

1960
02:35:34,280 --> 02:35:36,760
like brought into politics, was you know, because he had

1961
02:35:37,520 --> 02:35:40,079
he had he had he had to represent like all

1962
02:35:40,120 --> 02:35:43,040
the men who paid the ultimate price, you know, and

1963
02:35:43,120 --> 02:35:46,440
he had he had to stand up for Britain say

1964
02:35:46,440 --> 02:35:48,920
that it could survive, but he had to see to

1965
02:35:49,040 --> 02:35:51,840
it that this never ever happened again, you know. And

1966
02:35:51,920 --> 02:35:55,040
that probably sounds messianic to people who don't really understand

1967
02:35:56,200 --> 02:36:00,280
what sort of experiences like that are like. And I mean, yeah,

1968
02:36:00,280 --> 02:36:04,399
there's got to be like a strong component of ecocentrism

1969
02:36:05,280 --> 02:36:11,159
if you're gonna nominate yourself for that kind of ambition.

1970
02:36:12,280 --> 02:36:17,920
But you know, it's it's not it's not a matter

1971
02:36:18,000 --> 02:36:26,159
of commoning cloud or prestige, you know. And the life

1972
02:36:26,200 --> 02:36:29,079
of Moseley didn't, it didn't go the way of like

1973
02:36:29,159 --> 02:36:31,200
the life of church Llor, the life of Tony Blair,

1974
02:36:32,000 --> 02:36:35,159
like at every key juncture, mostly made a decision that

1975
02:36:35,360 --> 02:36:39,799
put him at odds with powerful people and with interest

1976
02:36:39,879 --> 02:36:43,719
that are becoming entrenched and you know, the new establishment.

1977
02:36:44,120 --> 02:36:48,399
You know, it can't be said that any man would

1978
02:36:48,440 --> 02:36:54,040
pursue this course in order to somehow enrich himself or

1979
02:36:54,120 --> 02:37:01,120
to guarantee his own posterity by you know, situating himself

1980
02:37:02,680 --> 02:37:10,559
on the side that would be favorably documented by court history.

1981
02:37:11,399 --> 02:37:21,840
But the uh, the key kind of event too, like

1982
02:37:21,959 --> 02:37:31,600
post Armistice was well, I mean the first kind of

1983
02:37:34,840 --> 02:37:41,559
the fall of Asketh as uh as prime minister previously,

1984
02:37:42,600 --> 02:37:47,879
which facilitated Lord George's Lord Lloyd George's ascendency. That's what it's.

1985
02:37:48,040 --> 02:37:51,879
That's what it split the Liberal Party into the Union's

1986
02:37:51,959 --> 02:37:53,879
faction and and you know, I guess it would be

1987
02:37:53,879 --> 02:37:59,840
the Moderates. But it was the end of the war

1988
02:38:00,719 --> 02:38:06,440
and the issue of Ireland that uh really brought down

1989
02:38:07,000 --> 02:38:13,159
the Coalition and Moseley and again him basically citing not

1990
02:38:13,319 --> 02:38:20,079
with the Fenians but with Ireland. The Irish is are people. Uh.

1991
02:38:20,360 --> 02:38:22,479
That was an that that wasn't like the sole approximate

1992
02:38:22,600 --> 02:38:25,760
cause obviously, but it was an essential cause, you know,

1993
02:38:27,280 --> 02:38:29,959
and some of the so there's that too and it

1994
02:38:32,520 --> 02:38:40,799
I uh, I think that that speaks for itself. But

1995
02:38:41,000 --> 02:38:53,680
the they find a place here. Sorry. It was this

1996
02:38:53,799 --> 02:39:00,440
other big thing too that put him somewhat uh at

1997
02:39:00,520 --> 02:39:09,879
odds with kind of everybody not just on the front

1998
02:39:09,959 --> 02:39:16,079
bench of the coalition but also the moderate labor ights

1999
02:39:16,120 --> 02:39:21,799
were willing to reach across the aisle. He'd opposed the

2000
02:39:21,920 --> 02:39:33,440
public education structure as it existed for the same reasons

2001
02:39:33,520 --> 02:39:38,319
that some of these utopian progressives had, and that being

2002
02:39:38,440 --> 02:39:42,760
that he basically viewed it as taxing the commons the

2003
02:39:42,879 --> 02:39:48,719
kind of put forth at an education that was determined

2004
02:39:48,760 --> 02:39:52,399
by the Church of England, which meant that like nonconformists,

2005
02:39:52,440 --> 02:39:57,559
you know, dissenters would have really like no option and

2006
02:39:57,639 --> 02:40:01,200
they'd be kind of like mandated into a you know,

2007
02:40:03,799 --> 02:40:08,120
a h an educational paradigmad odds with their culture and

2008
02:40:08,200 --> 02:40:13,559
devised by you know, their class betters. But he also

2009
02:40:13,719 --> 02:40:18,079
said that you know, the model has to be that

2010
02:40:18,799 --> 02:40:22,600
the educational model has to be that of the Prussian

2011
02:40:22,719 --> 02:40:26,399
system or you know, the American system, you know, and

2012
02:40:26,520 --> 02:40:30,280
again he was looking he was looking basically towards you know,

2013
02:40:30,799 --> 02:40:34,479
although obviously people didn't think in terms of this vocabulary

2014
02:40:35,319 --> 02:40:39,440
literally or conceptually he was. He was looking forward and

2015
02:40:39,520 --> 02:40:41,840
saying like, we're going to have to become a superpower

2016
02:40:41,920 --> 02:40:43,600
and change the way that we do things from the

2017
02:40:43,680 --> 02:40:49,159
ground up, you know, from our the way we approach

2018
02:40:49,360 --> 02:40:53,479
you know, labor and management relations, you know, to UH.

2019
02:40:54,000 --> 02:40:57,239
This idea that you know, we can we can tailor

2020
02:40:57,280 --> 02:41:02,680
our production schema, you know, based on you know, guarding

2021
02:41:02,840 --> 02:41:08,639
UH markets for all time against competitor imports. And you know,

2022
02:41:08,760 --> 02:41:10,239
well if the if you know, if the if the

2023
02:41:10,360 --> 02:41:15,239
Huns UH start UH start getting too greedy and in

2024
02:41:15,360 --> 02:41:17,280
terms of markets they stake out in Africa, we can

2025
02:41:17,360 --> 02:41:20,280
just go to war with them again like that. You know.

2026
02:41:20,479 --> 02:41:22,399
His idea was like, oh, that had to stop. And

2027
02:41:23,479 --> 02:41:27,360
you know, if you the only way that the Empire

2028
02:41:28,079 --> 02:41:31,399
can manage those demands is, you know, you need a

2029
02:41:31,479 --> 02:41:37,959
population that is basically competent in technics, you know, and

2030
02:41:38,040 --> 02:41:41,360
then and there has to be the focus of you know,

2031
02:41:41,559 --> 02:41:47,719
the of the educational system. And this was quite revolutionary

2032
02:41:47,799 --> 02:41:50,520
at the time, you know. And again in those days too,

2033
02:41:51,879 --> 02:41:57,040
state centric models were like a forelong conclusion in part

2034
02:41:57,120 --> 02:42:01,600
by necessity. And uh, public education wasn't this thing that

2035
02:42:01,760 --> 02:42:05,399
decades obsolete like today, like it actually had a purpose.

2036
02:42:05,559 --> 02:42:08,079
I mean, you've gotta this was literally a century ago,

2037
02:42:08,280 --> 02:42:10,760
you know. I can't emphasize that enough. And nothing bothers

2038
02:42:10,840 --> 02:42:13,760
me more than when people should know better try and

2039
02:42:13,840 --> 02:42:25,559
project contemporary biases. Uh ont pest uh And he said too,

2040
02:42:25,719 --> 02:42:35,079
like he he grew upon these the kind of a

2041
02:42:35,120 --> 02:42:37,639
lot of these, like a lot of these utopian progressives

2042
02:42:38,120 --> 02:42:45,440
among them Field Marshall Edmund Ironside, who commanded uh not

2043
02:42:45,639 --> 02:42:51,920
just troops on the Western Front, but he'd uh served

2044
02:42:51,920 --> 02:42:57,600
in northern Russia with the White Army and Allied elements.

2045
02:42:58,680 --> 02:43:02,719
Like he Uh, he was very much an imperialist and

2046
02:43:02,840 --> 02:43:04,680
very much a British patriot. Those are very much a

2047
02:43:04,799 --> 02:43:08,120
socialist and most even the point again and again, like

2048
02:43:08,239 --> 02:43:11,200
look like being an imperialist and being like a socialist

2049
02:43:11,319 --> 02:43:14,879
and and and and and viewing you know, like the

2050
02:43:15,360 --> 02:43:18,600
the races that make up the UK, like you know,

2051
02:43:18,719 --> 02:43:23,600
the the the indigenous elements. You know, he's like, you know,

2052
02:43:25,239 --> 02:43:31,760
viewing and integral socialism, it's essential to our posterity. Those

2053
02:43:31,799 --> 02:43:37,120
things aren't somehow mutually exclusive like Norley in conflict, you know,

2054
02:43:37,200 --> 02:43:42,760
and that that as a point he came back to

2055
02:43:42,879 --> 02:43:47,959
again and again as the b UF got established, is

2056
02:43:48,040 --> 02:43:55,120
that the paradigmic class conflict, it runs far deeper in

2057
02:43:55,159 --> 02:43:58,040
the UK than on the continent. And he acknowledged that.

2058
02:43:58,879 --> 02:44:02,680
But you know that it it was very much exploited

2059
02:44:04,040 --> 02:44:12,000
for cidical reasons by you know, by the UH. And

2060
02:44:12,040 --> 02:44:15,399
there then there's perverse incentives to sustain those kinds of tensions,

2061
02:44:16,479 --> 02:44:19,559
the forced political outcomes, and to build coalitions and other things.

2062
02:44:20,680 --> 02:44:26,120
You know. It's which was absolutely true, you know, but

2063
02:44:26,239 --> 02:44:28,399
I I wanted to deep dive into a lot of

2064
02:44:28,440 --> 02:44:31,520
this stuff today because that's that's really the context the

2065
02:44:31,639 --> 02:44:37,079
b u F. And it's uh, you know, and like

2066
02:44:37,200 --> 02:44:43,040
I said, it much as Mosley was like a qualified

2067
02:44:43,239 --> 02:44:47,399
racialist like he you know, he he had a very

2068
02:44:47,479 --> 02:44:53,639
equitable view for a man of his station and and

2069
02:44:53,840 --> 02:45:03,440
cast it's complicated, the uh, well he decided Joseph Chamberlain

2070
02:45:03,479 --> 02:45:12,959
a lot it was a Chamberlain was a was it

2071
02:45:13,079 --> 02:45:20,440
was he was related to Neville Chamberlain, and he was

2072
02:45:20,520 --> 02:45:27,200
a liberal unionist. He was pretty extreme in his opposition

2073
02:45:27,319 --> 02:45:31,120
to home rule. But he also he was among the

2074
02:45:31,200 --> 02:45:34,879
founders of what was called the Birmingham Education League. Birmingham

2075
02:45:35,000 --> 02:45:40,520
was his home constituency, and he UH, he was an

2076
02:45:40,600 --> 02:45:46,120
advocate of UH like secular, patriotic and mass education on

2077
02:45:46,159 --> 02:45:50,559
the Prussian model, and a lot of a lot of

2078
02:45:50,680 --> 02:45:55,440
Chamberlain's ideas if you dig into like what he said

2079
02:45:55,479 --> 02:45:58,479
on the floor of the Commons and things, a lot

2080
02:45:58,559 --> 02:46:02,600
of that is like basically like Moseley like lifted almost

2081
02:46:02,639 --> 02:46:05,120
word for word downs that tunitively. I mean, there's but

2082
02:46:05,280 --> 02:46:08,639
that's that's the source of a lot of it. There was,

2083
02:46:10,200 --> 02:46:13,000
you know that. I mean Mosey obviously wasn't any kind

2084
02:46:13,000 --> 02:46:17,200
of arch unionist like the contrary, but you know, this

2085
02:46:17,360 --> 02:46:23,319
idea that Mosey was appropriating some continental tenancy that had

2086
02:46:23,360 --> 02:46:26,200
no President of the UK, you know, but trying to

2087
02:46:27,440 --> 02:46:32,280
create this kind of pastige of a socialist imperatives and

2088
02:46:32,879 --> 02:46:37,440
and you know kind of like imperialists, uh fervor like that.

2089
02:46:38,239 --> 02:46:43,000
There's nothing in Congress about that. In terms of the UH.

2090
02:46:44,760 --> 02:46:46,719
It was the political culture which was then like still

2091
02:46:46,799 --> 02:46:55,280
very much extrat the UH and mostly too like you

2092
02:46:55,360 --> 02:47:00,600
thought he was taken in by this idea that you know, well, okay,

2093
02:47:00,799 --> 02:47:05,799
you know these reforms, especially the post heating forty eight reforms,

2094
02:47:06,600 --> 02:47:11,360
which Moseley's family didn't look too highly upon. The Silver

2095
02:47:11,520 --> 02:47:14,920
lying that Mosley was that, well, you know this, this

2096
02:47:15,120 --> 02:47:18,239
this creates new potentialities. And he thought that like, you know,

2097
02:47:18,280 --> 02:47:21,040
there there could be some kind of like there could

2098
02:47:21,040 --> 02:47:24,399
be some kind of not like national pelagenesis, but but

2099
02:47:24,559 --> 02:47:27,000
kind of like revival of the political culture, you know,

2100
02:47:27,120 --> 02:47:30,879
through parliamentary means. And he very quickly became like disabused

2101
02:47:30,879 --> 02:47:35,399
of those ideas, you know, Like he he gave a

2102
02:47:35,479 --> 02:47:40,319
long speech, uh in support of the uh it was

2103
02:47:40,360 --> 02:47:44,040
his maiden speech and support of what was called the

2104
02:47:44,159 --> 02:47:48,079
aerial navigation build. It was it was, it was, you know,

2105
02:47:48,239 --> 02:47:51,639
it proposed like kind of token funding and stuff for like,

2106
02:47:51,799 --> 02:47:55,000
you know, civil aviations, and mostly said like no, he's like, look,

2107
02:47:56,120 --> 02:48:01,000
the key to any other cutting edge technology there is

2108
02:48:01,120 --> 02:48:05,479
us mastering you know, like uh, a national culture of

2109
02:48:05,600 --> 02:48:10,440
a civil and military aviation you know. And having been

2110
02:48:10,639 --> 02:48:16,920
a fighter pilot, Mosely had obviously a lot of credibility

2111
02:48:16,959 --> 02:48:20,280
to speak on this, you know, and he said the

2112
02:48:20,440 --> 02:48:24,680
fact that a lot a lot of these parliamentarians. They

2113
02:48:24,719 --> 02:48:26,680
were really dismissive of him as just you know, some

2114
02:48:26,840 --> 02:48:31,280
kind of young professional soldier who wanted to build himself up.

2115
02:48:31,360 --> 02:48:36,200
I appeal to you know, a romantic subject matter, or

2116
02:48:36,239 --> 02:48:39,239
they said, no understanding what he was talking about. You know,

2117
02:48:39,559 --> 02:48:41,319
he realized, you know, like my god, we're in real

2118
02:48:41,440 --> 02:48:49,799
trouble here, you know, especially UH looking to America and

2119
02:48:51,120 --> 02:48:53,520
you know, even Germany, which was in a catastrophic state

2120
02:48:53,639 --> 02:49:00,959
at the time. You know, they people UH in both

2121
02:49:01,760 --> 02:49:05,479
respective states, you know, they had they had a far

2122
02:49:06,120 --> 02:49:11,600
greater understanding of kind of the the velocity and the

2123
02:49:11,680 --> 02:49:16,520
kind of trajectory of technology as it was, you know,

2124
02:49:20,120 --> 02:49:24,760
as it was at that moment, you know, the British

2125
02:49:24,799 --> 02:49:30,479
were really lagging, you know, which UH is one of

2126
02:49:30,520 --> 02:49:33,639
the things that did the men. You know, I believe

2127
02:49:33,840 --> 02:49:37,200
it was. It wasn't inevitable, but it was definitely a

2128
02:49:39,239 --> 02:49:45,440
necessary cause. One of many this UH.

2129
02:49:47,840 --> 02:49:48,680
Speaker 1: And his UH.

2130
02:49:50,120 --> 02:49:55,239
Speaker 2: A second speech he gave out aviation. He called for

2131
02:49:55,520 --> 02:50:01,360
UH basically the elimination of UH the kind of military

2132
02:50:01,479 --> 02:50:05,200
bureaucracy as it existed, like the military and diplomatic bureaucracy,

2133
02:50:05,319 --> 02:50:10,920
which was more integrated in the UK than in America

2134
02:50:11,040 --> 02:50:14,559
except for maybe peak Cold War. You know, there was

2135
02:50:14,600 --> 02:50:18,799
a he said, like, why why is aviation civil and military?

2136
02:50:19,639 --> 02:50:21,680
You know, why is it under personal control the Secretary

2137
02:50:21,719 --> 02:50:26,200
of State from War and Air? You know, why why

2138
02:50:26,280 --> 02:50:28,559
is there a parliamentary committee devoted to it? You know,

2139
02:50:28,600 --> 02:50:31,479
there has no accell expertise over the matter. You know,

2140
02:50:31,559 --> 02:50:35,639
he said there should be one single air chief almost

2141
02:50:35,680 --> 02:50:40,920
like a joint chief's or a or or like the

2142
02:50:41,000 --> 02:50:44,760
staff system that existed in in Prussia and then the

2143
02:50:45,879 --> 02:50:53,680
kaiser Reich, you know, but obviously not devised for the

2144
02:50:54,040 --> 02:51:01,040
exclusive purpose of military command. And took notice of this

2145
02:51:01,559 --> 02:51:07,600
and started to kind of like mimic what Mosey was

2146
02:51:09,280 --> 02:51:13,399
the kind of facts and concepts that he was relaying

2147
02:51:13,440 --> 02:51:17,840
about aviation. And then you know, Churchill let his cadres

2148
02:51:18,000 --> 02:51:23,000
and his cronies like later claims that were totally getting fabulated.

2149
02:51:23,719 --> 02:51:29,000
You know, about suppose the supposed German UH build up

2150
02:51:29,040 --> 02:51:31,959
an air power and you know, there are the ability

2151
02:51:32,040 --> 02:51:36,559
of a non existent German bombers to strike at the

2152
02:51:36,680 --> 02:51:42,280
heart of the UK such that you know, he he

2153
02:51:42,600 --> 02:51:47,879
was in those claims presenting actual aviation concepts. Some of

2154
02:51:47,920 --> 02:51:51,239
the stuff has directly lifted from like Moses early aviation speeches,

2155
02:51:51,239 --> 02:51:53,959
which is really interesting but unsurprising and very much in

2156
02:51:54,079 --> 02:52:01,440
character of Churchill. But uh, because around this time too,

2157
02:52:01,639 --> 02:52:07,079
like nineteen twenty one twenty two, you know, an immediate

2158
02:52:07,120 --> 02:52:16,319
aftermath of him completely falling out with the Liberal Union

2159
02:52:16,399 --> 02:52:21,760
front bench, he started speaking of the current the then

2160
02:52:21,840 --> 02:52:24,399
current epoch is the you know, the twilight of the gods.

2161
02:52:25,440 --> 02:52:27,239
You know, He's like, we're living in a period where

2162
02:52:27,479 --> 02:52:30,520
you know, we're like like the passing of the great race,

2163
02:52:30,879 --> 02:52:34,159
you know, is is uh is upon us and like

2164
02:52:34,319 --> 02:52:37,399
we're that great race and we're we're watching ourselves essentially

2165
02:52:37,559 --> 02:52:47,440
march into oblivion figuratively and literally. And this, uh his

2166
02:52:47,639 --> 02:52:58,040
model of aviation management and development at national scale. It attracted, uh,

2167
02:52:58,399 --> 02:53:02,879
it attracted a lot of guys to his corporatist model,

2168
02:53:03,680 --> 02:53:07,360
which at that point, uh, he was he becomes something

2169
02:53:07,399 --> 02:53:11,799
of a gadfly in the commons, but you know, he

2170
02:53:11,920 --> 02:53:14,000
was he was viewed as a guy who had very

2171
02:53:14,079 --> 02:53:19,879
serious ideas, at least in terms of you know, things

2172
02:53:19,920 --> 02:53:25,000
that were that were within his wheelhouse. And he attracted

2173
02:53:25,040 --> 02:53:32,719
a lot of prestige personalities to his ideas, specifically with

2174
02:53:34,399 --> 02:53:39,159
you know what he was proposing about about aviation and

2175
02:53:39,440 --> 02:53:47,120
uh adjacent technologies. It was really interesting and that David

2176
02:53:47,159 --> 02:53:49,799
Irving makes that point a lot, not specifically about Moseley,

2177
02:53:49,959 --> 02:53:54,120
but his book The Rise and Filled the Luffaff, which

2178
02:53:54,200 --> 02:53:56,920
is essentially like them it all but name. It's it's

2179
02:53:56,959 --> 02:54:02,200
like the memoirs of Erhard Milch. You know. Erhard Milch

2180
02:54:02,520 --> 02:54:05,840
was was incredibly important to the way the Third Right

2181
02:54:05,920 --> 02:54:10,399
developed and and it was into being like a great uh,

2182
02:54:12,079 --> 02:54:15,639
a great general of the air arm you know, in

2183
02:54:15,760 --> 02:54:18,760
a war hero. He was also uh he was the

2184
02:54:18,840 --> 02:54:23,120
first uh like CEO of a commercial airline, you know,

2185
02:54:23,600 --> 02:54:30,239
and this uh you know, and Lindberg is a counterpart

2186
02:54:30,360 --> 02:54:35,159
of this type in America. You know. This was this

2187
02:54:35,360 --> 02:54:37,760
was essential if if the UK had been kind of

2188
02:54:37,799 --> 02:54:43,440
less dysfunctional, like even if even if Mosey's ideas hadn't

2189
02:54:43,520 --> 02:54:45,680
been a resident in the way that he intended. And

2190
02:54:46,520 --> 02:54:49,840
you know, even if even if the fascist tendency that

2191
02:54:49,879 --> 02:54:51,760
have given the standard bureau of like never toally get

2192
02:54:51,799 --> 02:54:55,079
off the ground, if the UK hadn't totally committed suicide,

2193
02:54:55,239 --> 02:55:00,600
like Mosey would have been assimilated into the in into

2194
02:55:00,639 --> 02:55:04,000
the ruling apparatus, and his talents would have been you know,

2195
02:55:04,159 --> 02:55:09,200
directed in constructive ways. There's kind of waste of human capital.

2196
02:55:11,000 --> 02:55:16,000
It's something, uh that it's so clear and it's so

2197
02:55:16,159 --> 02:55:21,760
clearly catastrophic in not just in the UK the era,

2198
02:55:21,879 --> 02:55:24,959
but it's it's kind of the seminal example in my opinion.

2199
02:55:25,040 --> 02:55:27,920
And I mean that that's apparent today like in America,

2200
02:55:28,120 --> 02:55:32,840
but there's there's there's less of an obvious pool of

2201
02:55:32,920 --> 02:55:37,680
talent to draw upon or willing to dedicate their time

2202
02:55:37,719 --> 02:55:41,239
and waivers to the business and government. Then I guess

2203
02:55:41,399 --> 02:55:44,760
back then, obviously that wasn't that wasn't the case. You know,

2204
02:55:44,879 --> 02:55:50,760
there was there was a rememberably deep pool of incredibly

2205
02:55:50,879 --> 02:56:00,799
talented men. I think, uh, I'm gonna wrap up for

2206
02:56:01,000 --> 02:56:03,319
now and uh oh yeah, right about an hour anyway,

2207
02:56:03,840 --> 02:56:06,799
But yeah, well, I promise I'll get into more like

2208
02:56:06,920 --> 02:56:09,239
exciting and sexy stuff with the actual thought of that

2209
02:56:09,399 --> 02:56:13,559
buf and I'll conclude with part four. We might need

2210
02:56:13,600 --> 02:56:15,360
to go for like an hour fifteen or an hour

2211
02:56:15,360 --> 02:56:17,479
and a half though, but if that's okay with you,

2212
02:56:17,600 --> 02:56:18,239
it's fine with me.

2213
02:56:19,079 --> 02:56:19,319
Speaker 1: Sure.

2214
02:56:20,280 --> 02:56:22,040
Speaker 2: One question, one question before we go.

2215
02:56:22,239 --> 02:56:26,920
Speaker 1: You you mentioned the spanglearean term their technics. Yeah, can

2216
02:56:26,959 --> 02:56:30,159
you just tell everybody what technic, how you describe technics.

2217
02:56:30,440 --> 02:56:32,719
Speaker 2: It's all of those words in German that doesn't truly

2218
02:56:32,840 --> 02:56:36,040
translate because of the nuance it It refers to like

2219
02:56:36,200 --> 02:56:41,000
actual technology, like the physical stuff of technology and like machinery,

2220
02:56:41,520 --> 02:56:45,680
but it also refers to like a conceptual paradigm like

2221
02:56:45,920 --> 02:56:50,639
technological thinking. So like when when Spangler says technics, or

2222
02:56:52,079 --> 02:56:57,040
when you know, any any kind of German plotical philosopher

2223
02:56:57,079 --> 02:57:02,040
or sociologist like says technics, like he means that this

2224
02:57:02,319 --> 02:57:05,440
entire kind of paradigm, like the actual stuff of technology,

2225
02:57:06,360 --> 02:57:11,200
the the modality of thinking that incorporates it into you know,

2226
02:57:11,319 --> 02:57:17,200
political life, that the thought process that historically contextualizes it.

2227
02:57:17,959 --> 02:57:20,879
You know, the moral implications that derive from it, the

2228
02:57:21,000 --> 02:57:24,520
kind of sociological disturbances and benefits that that that stem

2229
02:57:24,639 --> 02:57:27,840
from it. It's kind of like it's it's it's like

2230
02:57:27,879 --> 02:57:30,000
a Zeitgeist word as well as like a word that

2231
02:57:30,120 --> 02:57:33,239
describes like a physical thing like that. That's what it means.

2232
02:57:34,040 --> 02:57:36,200
Speaker 1: Cool, all right, two plugs real quick.

2233
02:57:37,159 --> 02:57:39,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm having to report I have a lot of

2234
02:57:39,520 --> 02:57:45,360
exciting things going on. If you visit the sub Stack,

2235
02:57:47,280 --> 02:57:52,479
that's where the Book of my work product is in

2236
02:57:52,639 --> 02:57:57,200
terms of the podcast and like long form writing, it's

2237
02:57:57,319 --> 02:58:00,799
real Thomas, seven and seven and seven that STA dot com.

2238
02:58:02,479 --> 02:58:06,040
If you'll include my social media in the description, that'd

2239
02:58:06,079 --> 02:58:10,959
be great. My social media all is at Capital ri

2240
02:58:11,120 --> 02:58:16,079
A L underscore number seven h M A S seven

2241
02:58:16,200 --> 02:58:21,239
seven seven and I think, yeah, that's all I got.

2242
02:58:22,399 --> 02:58:25,079
Speaker 1: All right until part four. Thank you so much, Thomas.

2243
02:58:25,159 --> 02:58:25,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're welcome.

2244
02:58:25,760 --> 02:58:29,159
Speaker 1: Take care. I want to welcome everyone back to the

2245
02:58:29,239 --> 02:58:32,840
Pekenona Show. Thomas is here and we're going to continue

2246
02:58:33,760 --> 02:58:37,639
the series on mister Oswald mosly. How you doing, Thomas,

2247
02:58:38,319 --> 02:58:42,040
I'm going well. Thanks for having me. Is always.

2248
02:58:43,200 --> 02:58:48,000
Speaker 2: There's a critical aspect of British fascism that tends to

2249
02:58:48,040 --> 02:58:55,559
be neglected in the UK and Japan both. Interestingly, there

2250
02:58:55,680 --> 02:59:03,000
was in the later show era Japan's the Japanese Empire's

2251
02:59:03,000 --> 02:59:09,319
economic profile. It wasn't the internal situation wasn't configured anything

2252
02:59:09,520 --> 02:59:13,559
like the UK, despite I mean supervisial parallels between like

2253
02:59:13,680 --> 02:59:18,280
monarchy or something, if you want to draw such conclusions

2254
02:59:18,399 --> 02:59:24,280
like some of these, like midwid Court historians do. But

2255
02:59:25,639 --> 02:59:33,719
their financial system proved more robust than some, but it's

2256
02:59:33,719 --> 02:59:36,639
still there was still some pretty catastrophic effects. So like

2257
02:59:36,719 --> 02:59:41,120
in nineteen twenty nine, the UK didn't end up like Germany,

2258
02:59:41,520 --> 02:59:44,799
and their structural unemployment wasn't as bad as the United States,

2259
02:59:45,959 --> 02:59:49,159
but there were some pretty catastrophic problems and people forget

2260
02:59:49,319 --> 02:59:53,799
the UK went off the gold standard. There was this mutiny,

2261
02:59:53,959 --> 02:59:59,399
like an out and out Royal Navy mutiny, because both

2262
02:59:59,440 --> 03:00:03,559
officers and enlisted saw their pay cut by something like

2263
03:00:03,680 --> 03:00:08,239
twenty five percent in real terms, Okay, And it was

2264
03:00:08,280 --> 03:00:14,280
explained that well, these were austerity measures and the the

2265
03:00:14,440 --> 03:00:19,159
leadership element of UH, of the Royal Navy, I mean

2266
03:00:19,200 --> 03:00:22,879
obviously the direct line to not just to the Crown,

2267
03:00:23,040 --> 03:00:27,200
but you know, but to the Prime Minister, and they

2268
03:00:27,399 --> 03:00:30,239
were trying to get all these assurances, but you know,

2269
03:00:30,360 --> 03:00:33,639
to no avail. And that kind of thing is the

2270
03:00:34,200 --> 03:00:38,520
way of catching fire proverbial lee. I mean, that's what

2271
03:00:39,040 --> 03:00:41,920
in in in the I mean, that's that's what happened

2272
03:00:42,079 --> 03:00:44,159
in the final age of the Great War and the

2273
03:00:44,280 --> 03:00:49,040
German Empire. Okay, and UH, the Royal Navy had outsized

2274
03:00:49,120 --> 03:00:53,920
clout for obvious reasons. The people who know the culture

2275
03:00:54,000 --> 03:01:00,399
of the UK, so this was pretty catastrovic. Mostly the

2276
03:01:00,440 --> 03:01:05,079
way he came to fascism. You know, we talked a

2277
03:01:05,120 --> 03:01:11,879
lot about his class origins being discreetly congruous with that

2278
03:01:11,959 --> 03:01:14,360
sort of trajectory, you know, And I make that point

2279
03:01:14,360 --> 03:01:16,719
a lot in my own work product and stuff, because

2280
03:01:17,719 --> 03:01:21,440
this idea that it was opportunistic or cynical is acid iron,

2281
03:01:21,520 --> 03:01:24,000
because nobody would have taken on that kind of rogues,

2282
03:01:29,079 --> 03:01:32,239
you know, position if he didn't believe in it and

2283
03:01:32,479 --> 03:01:36,639
plan on seeing it through despite the consequences. But you know,

2284
03:01:36,760 --> 03:01:40,360
Mosley also he was a genuine friend of the working man,

2285
03:01:40,440 --> 03:01:44,920
and he had like he had an integralist view of

2286
03:01:46,799 --> 03:01:50,799
of what you know, of what progressive politics should look like.

2287
03:01:51,719 --> 03:01:57,959
And something else to keep in mind too. One of

2288
03:01:58,000 --> 03:02:01,440
the reasons why, especially in the UK, like everybody was

2289
03:02:01,479 --> 03:02:04,879
a Kingsian like right and left and everything in between.

2290
03:02:06,319 --> 03:02:11,719
The reason people were susceptible to that error is because

2291
03:02:12,479 --> 03:02:15,680
the entire global financial system Nassen does it may have

2292
03:02:15,840 --> 03:02:21,399
been in comparative and absolute terms, had completely collapsed and

2293
03:02:24,520 --> 03:02:27,600
these uncertainties couldn't just be allowed to resolve themselves over

2294
03:02:27,639 --> 03:02:30,639
then that's a decade or two decades there would have

2295
03:02:30,760 --> 03:02:34,879
been you would have been just capitulating to revolutionary conditions.

2296
03:02:35,520 --> 03:02:37,920
And had they not been an out and out communist revolution,

2297
03:02:38,520 --> 03:02:40,399
there would have been like a total collapse of state

2298
03:02:40,479 --> 03:02:44,559
institutions such that the commutants of the body politic would

2299
03:02:44,600 --> 03:02:46,920
have would have evaporated, and people would have resorted to

2300
03:02:47,000 --> 03:02:53,399
self help in ways that would have culminated in literal anarchy.

2301
03:02:54,319 --> 03:02:57,600
And even guys like Schumpeter, who was you know, I

2302
03:02:58,200 --> 03:03:03,600
believe that Shrumpeter's business siteles is like the academic rebuddally Keynes.

2303
03:03:05,440 --> 03:03:09,799
Schumpeter was no kind of demand cider okay, like at all,

2304
03:03:10,920 --> 03:03:17,639
quite the contrary. But even he favored one time shock therapy,

2305
03:03:20,159 --> 03:03:23,120
you know, because he was he was commissioned to try

2306
03:03:23,159 --> 03:03:26,079
and help resolve the American situation early on before he

2307
03:03:26,120 --> 03:03:29,319
became persona on Grado with the New Dealers, you know,

2308
03:03:29,440 --> 03:03:33,719
and he favored, you know, like an infusion of about

2309
03:03:33,799 --> 03:03:38,120
five million dollars, which I can't give you the exact

2310
03:03:38,200 --> 03:03:41,760
figure adjusting for inflation, but that was a tremendous amount

2311
03:03:41,760 --> 03:03:46,159
of money in nineteen twenty nine. He favored like a

2312
03:03:48,120 --> 03:03:56,760
shock therapy flooding of a of a currency markets with

2313
03:03:56,959 --> 03:04:02,479
public funding, as like a one time event that would

2314
03:04:02,840 --> 03:04:05,600
try and that would sort of stop or at least

2315
03:04:05,639 --> 03:04:09,799
mitigate the deflationary spiral. Okay, so everybody there was not

2316
03:04:09,920 --> 03:04:12,319
a single person who had like a lazy fair review

2317
03:04:12,360 --> 03:04:16,000
at this point, and you really couldn't. And in Schumpeter's view,

2318
03:04:16,280 --> 03:04:20,600
he said, look like you know, the yes, there will

2319
03:04:20,680 --> 03:04:26,479
be corrective structural features in coming decades, but the political

2320
03:04:26,520 --> 03:04:29,600
system won't abide that. So it doesn't matter if that's

2321
03:04:29,799 --> 03:04:37,040
you know, incorrect in terms of pure macroeconomics. That was

2322
03:04:37,079 --> 03:04:38,639
a bit of a digression, but it was a sense

2323
03:04:38,680 --> 03:04:43,760
and will understand the political situation in the UK. So

2324
03:04:46,840 --> 03:04:52,840
what in real terms of what this led to was

2325
03:04:52,879 --> 03:04:55,959
the emergence of the national government in the United Kingdom.

2326
03:04:57,079 --> 03:05:04,559
And this was basically unprecedented, you know. And again the

2327
03:05:05,200 --> 03:05:09,159
the economic slump, while not it's catastrophic in the UK,

2328
03:05:09,879 --> 03:05:13,479
it was the most severe it had ever been in history.

2329
03:05:15,879 --> 03:05:20,680
A key figure that kind of compromised confidence in the

2330
03:05:20,879 --> 03:05:30,520
government in the immediate aftermath of in the immediate aftermath

2331
03:05:30,600 --> 03:05:36,159
of the nineteen twenty nine crash, Philip Snowden, first Viscount Snowden.

2332
03:05:39,280 --> 03:05:46,360
He was the he was the Minister of the Exchequer

2333
03:05:47,920 --> 03:05:51,639
and which for all practical purpose, like a that's like

2334
03:05:51,680 --> 03:05:58,559
a cross between like a cabinet position at the at

2335
03:05:58,600 --> 03:06:03,319
the head of the Treasury as well as being like

2336
03:06:04,399 --> 03:06:07,360
the chairman of the Federal Reserve, if such things existed,

2337
03:06:07,440 --> 03:06:09,840
then you know, he was based like the chief like

2338
03:06:10,000 --> 03:06:14,319
financial officer of the crown, you know. And he'd uh

2339
03:06:18,040 --> 03:06:24,159
he he was uniquely like like Labor interested a unique

2340
03:06:24,200 --> 03:06:28,840
sympathy for him, okay, because he he tended. He kind

2341
03:06:28,840 --> 03:06:33,639
of built his uh reputation as a rhetorician as and

2342
03:06:34,040 --> 03:06:40,399
and sort of a dynamic figure with these denunciations of

2343
03:06:40,520 --> 03:06:46,280
capitalism and a kind of encyclopedic knowledge of monetary theory

2344
03:06:46,360 --> 03:06:50,200
and things. You know. Uh, the problem was like there

2345
03:06:50,280 --> 03:06:52,639
was no real substance theory. It was just that it was.

2346
03:06:53,000 --> 03:06:59,760
It was it was knowledge of elaborate trivia. And he

2347
03:06:59,879 --> 03:07:04,399
was the first Chancellor of the ex Chequer who represent

2348
03:07:04,440 --> 03:07:09,840
you know, who represented the Labor Party. But he broke

2349
03:07:10,040 --> 03:07:14,079
with what was official Labor policy in nineteen thirty one

2350
03:07:14,520 --> 03:07:18,239
visa the austerity measures, and he got expelled from the party.

2351
03:07:19,719 --> 03:07:23,799
And then later that year Labor was crushed by the

2352
03:07:23,959 --> 03:07:31,799
National Government coalition and he was succeeded as a Chancellor

2353
03:07:31,799 --> 03:07:36,959
of the ex Checker by Neville Chamberlain. Interestingly, I mean,

2354
03:07:37,000 --> 03:07:39,239
I think I think Chamberlain would have eventually become Prime

2355
03:07:39,280 --> 03:07:45,000
Minister anyway, but it was the crisis situation that really

2356
03:07:47,719 --> 03:07:56,360
sort of a leap frog Chamberlain into the role. But

2357
03:07:58,760 --> 03:08:03,600
at the helm of the Nation Government coalition was McDonald,

2358
03:08:04,040 --> 03:08:07,520
James McDonald, James Ramsey McDonald. We went by Ramsey McDonald.

2359
03:08:09,840 --> 03:08:13,840
He's kind of a forgotten prime minister and that's that's

2360
03:08:14,520 --> 03:08:17,239
a major blind spot even of a lot of revision.

2361
03:08:17,280 --> 03:08:20,000
It's not just court historians, because he was fundamentally important.

2362
03:08:21,399 --> 03:08:23,319
McDonald had been one of the founders of the Labor

2363
03:08:23,399 --> 03:08:33,559
Party along with Keiir Hardy and Arthur Henderson, and he uh,

2364
03:08:34,040 --> 03:08:36,719
he'd been a staunch opponent of the Great War, and

2365
03:08:36,840 --> 03:08:49,000
he never wavered from from that perspective. And he basically

2366
03:08:50,959 --> 03:08:54,799
he's the one he was able to break ranks with

2367
03:08:55,040 --> 03:08:59,360
Labor in doc frintal terms in the wake of the

2368
03:09:01,959 --> 03:09:04,959
Invergarden mutiny, which is what I just referenced at the

2369
03:09:05,040 --> 03:09:11,159
obset of this discussion. But h you know, and he

2370
03:09:14,079 --> 03:09:17,280
he formed uh in this and he also he was

2371
03:09:17,319 --> 03:09:21,879
able to court the Tory the Tories who defected to

2372
03:09:22,000 --> 03:09:28,479
the National Coalition because uh, he promised to uh carry

2373
03:09:28,520 --> 03:09:32,440
out austerity measures that would defend and protect the gold

2374
03:09:32,520 --> 03:09:35,760
standards so it would survive as like the basis of

2375
03:09:36,719 --> 03:09:40,239
monetary policy, which failed, and that's one of the things

2376
03:09:40,280 --> 03:09:51,319
that took down A. Ramsey's government. But the phraseology that

2377
03:09:51,399 --> 03:09:53,399
he employed in nineteen thirty one and calling for a

2378
03:09:53,479 --> 03:09:57,040
general election was he said, I needed, I need to

2379
03:09:57,120 --> 03:10:01,159
quote doctor's mandate to fix this economy, you know, and

2380
03:10:01,280 --> 03:10:03,280
again like people are going to look at that, Oh,

2381
03:10:03,360 --> 03:10:06,840
that's just typical like interventionist kinsy and socialism, Like, yeah

2382
03:10:06,920 --> 03:10:10,520
it is, But you can't consider this, you know in

2383
03:10:11,000 --> 03:10:14,840
like nineteen sixties or seventies or eighties terms or today's terms.

2384
03:10:15,520 --> 03:10:19,040
You know. I think I think McDonald would have advocated

2385
03:10:19,079 --> 03:10:23,760
that anyway, just because of his understanding of economics or

2386
03:10:23,799 --> 03:10:28,000
like misunderstanding, if you will. But to say there was

2387
03:10:28,040 --> 03:10:34,440
a fertile ground for those kinds of proposed administrative remedies

2388
03:10:35,079 --> 03:10:40,440
to macroeconomic trailies that it doesn't even begin to describe it.

2389
03:10:40,520 --> 03:10:46,639
It was a totally irring world. And information awareness and

2390
03:10:46,719 --> 03:10:49,600
the ability to manage data at scale in real time

2391
03:10:50,000 --> 03:10:56,479
that has totally completely changed everything in terms of fiscal policy,

2392
03:10:56,600 --> 03:11:01,920
economic planning, consumer confidence, that traject three of money, the

2393
03:11:02,000 --> 03:11:08,239
way people approached stocks and capital investments, like everything. Okay,

2394
03:11:08,360 --> 03:11:13,479
it's it's like comparing mathematics by advocates to mathematics by

2395
03:11:14,239 --> 03:11:18,319
like a nineteen sixty supercomputer, if you'll allow an imperfect metaphor.

2396
03:11:19,440 --> 03:11:25,079
But this was the backdrop that Moseley was dealing with,

2397
03:11:25,399 --> 03:11:33,600
you know. And he, you know, he was about the

2398
03:11:33,799 --> 03:11:39,559
youngest parliamentarian save a Fanian candidate who was boycotting the Commons.

2399
03:11:40,600 --> 03:11:43,639
You know, when he began, when Mosey began his his

2400
03:11:43,760 --> 03:11:49,200
political career, you know, he he was kind of perfectly Mosey.

2401
03:11:49,280 --> 03:11:53,040
I mean, he was kind of perfectly situated to represent

2402
03:11:53,680 --> 03:11:58,280
like a revolutionary tendency that was at the same time patriotic.

2403
03:11:59,399 --> 03:12:05,280
You know. Well, as he started talking right around this time,

2404
03:12:08,440 --> 03:12:12,680
he had a more than casual front of the H. G. Wells,

2405
03:12:14,079 --> 03:12:19,479
and he started talking about corporatism, and he said, look,

2406
03:12:19,520 --> 03:12:22,440
the only chance of successful progress in this country, and

2407
03:12:22,520 --> 03:12:24,799
really the only the only way we're going to salvage

2408
03:12:24,840 --> 03:12:31,000
the United Kingdom, salvage Britain, not just as uh, a

2409
03:12:31,120 --> 03:12:35,680
society that's not racked by class war and that retains

2410
03:12:35,760 --> 03:12:39,280
an integral culture and moral consensus. But like the only

2411
03:12:39,360 --> 03:12:41,319
way that that Britain is going to endure is a

2412
03:12:41,399 --> 03:12:44,760
world power, you know, is we we've got to find

2413
03:12:44,760 --> 03:12:47,760
a way to cooperate with you know, the the kind

2414
03:12:47,799 --> 03:12:57,360
of top intelligency of big business wells uh. Interestingly, one

2415
03:12:57,399 --> 03:13:02,680
of his lesser known works these days, it's a it

2416
03:13:02,799 --> 03:13:06,719
was like a novella. You'd probably describe it in terms

2417
03:13:06,719 --> 03:13:11,799
of length and and and sort of narrative structure. It's

2418
03:13:11,840 --> 03:13:17,360
called The Autocracy of Mister Pelham, and it's basically it's

2419
03:13:17,399 --> 03:13:23,079
sort of like the like like an Anglo Saxon version

2420
03:13:23,159 --> 03:13:27,319
of Citizen Kane, but it's about this fascist political leader.

2421
03:13:28,120 --> 03:13:34,799
He's kind of like an Anglophone Mussolini. And it's really

2422
03:13:34,920 --> 03:13:39,719
it's interesting, you know, and this is gonna become significant

2423
03:13:39,760 --> 03:13:41,520
in a moment in terms in terms of what we

2424
03:13:41,639 --> 03:13:45,239
described as far as it's like temporal snapshot of Mosey's

2425
03:13:45,280 --> 03:13:49,639
career as those of the European situation. Musoleni at this

2426
03:13:49,760 --> 03:13:53,360
point was viewed as a heroic individual and people like them,

2427
03:13:54,600 --> 03:13:59,719
you know. That's why some years later the Four Powers Packed,

2428
03:14:01,440 --> 03:14:06,000
which when ultimately like the signatories put pen to paper,

2429
03:14:06,159 --> 03:14:12,360
figuredly literally the substance of it had been gutted by redaction,

2430
03:14:13,479 --> 03:14:19,200
but Mussolini was viewed as this like dynamic savior of

2431
03:14:19,399 --> 03:14:23,479
Italy and a man who was like on the cusp

2432
03:14:23,639 --> 03:14:27,840
of a you know, like the new political theory and praxis,

2433
03:14:29,239 --> 03:14:32,840
and Italy was an important country then you know, like

2434
03:14:32,920 --> 03:14:35,079
I'm not I'm not trashing Italy yet. I think Italians

2435
03:14:35,120 --> 03:14:38,120
are great, and I think Italy is an awesome culture.

2436
03:14:39,079 --> 03:14:44,639
But Italy had they were far more significant, not just

2437
03:14:44,840 --> 03:14:49,440
power political terms, but in cultural terms. You know, like

2438
03:14:50,680 --> 03:14:53,120
a lot of a lot of trends like emerged from there,

2439
03:14:53,360 --> 03:14:57,520
kind of like the way kind of like the way

2440
03:14:57,600 --> 03:15:00,639
people looked at the UK in the sixties, you know,

2441
03:15:00,719 --> 03:15:02,639
it was kind of like the last Gas but like

2442
03:15:05,600 --> 03:15:09,200
the UK is like cultural relevancy on the world stage, okay,

2443
03:15:09,360 --> 03:15:11,319
like in political terms, Like that's kind of people view

2444
03:15:11,319 --> 03:15:14,799
to Italy. And this was augmented by the fact that

2445
03:15:15,200 --> 03:15:19,680
on the continent, but especially in Italy, like the arts

2446
03:15:19,760 --> 03:15:25,200
and cultural product had this outsized impact on politics and

2447
03:15:25,319 --> 03:15:30,079
vice versa. You know, so the fact that these like

2448
03:15:30,239 --> 03:15:34,360
died in the wall, like Anglos as well as as

2449
03:15:34,399 --> 03:15:37,520
well as some of these on the other side, some

2450
03:15:37,600 --> 03:15:40,559
of these Irish Catholic and Fenian types like look at

2451
03:15:40,639 --> 03:15:45,760
Mussolini as as as like a heroic like man, you know,

2452
03:15:45,840 --> 03:15:47,680
like a man's man, and and the and the kind

2453
03:15:47,719 --> 03:15:53,120
of the kind of the kind of revolutionary you you

2454
03:15:53,239 --> 03:16:01,799
can reconcile. You know, the the the class were prisis.

2455
03:16:02,719 --> 03:16:04,799
You know that that wasn't like most, that that wasn't

2456
03:16:04,879 --> 03:16:09,719
just like a she Wells and uh and Moseley being

2457
03:16:09,760 --> 03:16:12,559
a couple of eccentrics that was that was a not

2458
03:16:12,799 --> 03:16:23,159
uncommon thought or sentiment. And uh, George Bernard Shaw was

2459
03:16:23,239 --> 03:16:27,200
another figure in this kind of early Mosey milieu. And

2460
03:16:27,280 --> 03:16:31,280
I made the point a lot. And the guy who

2461
03:16:31,399 --> 03:16:34,200
wrote there's this interesting academic I think he was at

2462
03:16:34,319 --> 03:16:38,239
University of Vermont. He's the guy who wrote this really

2463
03:16:38,319 --> 03:16:41,959
good biography of William Pierce that Peers collaborated on it.

2464
03:16:42,200 --> 03:16:44,200
It was called Fame of a Dead Man's Deeds. I

2465
03:16:44,280 --> 03:16:49,399
believe the guy's name is Robert Griffin. But Griffin wrote

2466
03:16:49,399 --> 03:16:53,079
a really good book about British fascism, and he talked

2467
03:16:53,120 --> 03:16:58,559
about how George Bernard Shaw was an essential cultural figure

2468
03:16:59,360 --> 03:17:03,319
and then and he was, and people totally misunderstand this.

2469
03:17:03,760 --> 03:17:06,479
I don't know if it's deliberate because they don't want

2470
03:17:06,520 --> 03:17:11,159
to credit an important literary giant with having anything to

2471
03:17:11,200 --> 03:17:14,079
do with fascism. I don't know if it's ignorance, but

2472
03:17:15,879 --> 03:17:18,959
you know, like Man and Superman, which we'll get into

2473
03:17:19,000 --> 03:17:24,440
in a moment, like the stage play, that's both like

2474
03:17:24,479 --> 03:17:29,440
anchean terrible, but it it also is like a political

2475
03:17:29,520 --> 03:17:37,840
metaphor and defensive fascism. Okay. And Shaw was h Shaw

2476
03:17:38,040 --> 03:17:44,239
directly behooed young Moseley. He said, look, you've got to

2477
03:17:44,280 --> 03:17:46,840
you've got to break with labor. You've got to break

2478
03:17:46,920 --> 03:17:48,680
with the Labor Party, and you've got to start. You've

2479
03:17:48,680 --> 03:17:55,520
got to start a new movement, you know it. And

2480
03:17:55,600 --> 03:17:59,360
he's like, you can't. You've got to avoid the You've

2481
03:17:59,360 --> 03:18:01,719
got to you've got to avoid the impulse to moderate

2482
03:18:02,840 --> 03:18:05,920
or to compromise like McDonald did you know? And he

2483
03:18:06,040 --> 03:18:07,879
and this was a McDonald's on his way out. He's

2484
03:18:07,920 --> 03:18:10,239
like that that didn't That didn't save the prime minister.

2485
03:18:10,399 --> 03:18:14,719
It's not gonna save you either. But also obviously, like Shaw,

2486
03:18:14,719 --> 03:18:20,360
a sensibility was one of extreme vitalism and historical situated

2487
03:18:20,360 --> 03:18:22,520
in this so we you know, he's like, we this

2488
03:18:22,600 --> 03:18:26,440
is something that's that transcends like parliamentarism and anything like that.

2489
03:18:29,879 --> 03:18:34,159
Shaw later stepped back from involvement in party politics or

2490
03:18:34,280 --> 03:18:38,319
bleak or otherwise. But I I see no evidence that

2491
03:18:38,360 --> 03:18:42,680
he ever changed his mind, you know. And but that's

2492
03:18:44,959 --> 03:18:49,399
that's a that's an essential influence, even more so than

2493
03:18:51,959 --> 03:18:53,479
some of these uh what's that?

2494
03:18:54,319 --> 03:18:58,879
Speaker 1: Can I interrupt them? Most people would relate Shaw and

2495
03:19:00,040 --> 03:19:05,639
Wells more to the Fabian society, I mean four volume set.

2496
03:19:05,680 --> 03:19:08,319
I read his four volume set on the History of

2497
03:19:08,760 --> 03:19:14,040
Man and it's very it's it's almost like a progressive Bible.

2498
03:19:14,760 --> 03:19:17,159
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and well Wells wasn't any kind of fascist,

2499
03:19:17,239 --> 03:19:21,159
and it's a but I think Shaw basically was, you know.

2500
03:19:23,200 --> 03:19:25,600
But the one of the reasons why the communists were

2501
03:19:25,600 --> 03:19:29,280
always saying that fascism is just like a crisis modality

2502
03:19:29,360 --> 03:19:33,680
of capitalism, and that's why it's so insidious and it's

2503
03:19:33,799 --> 03:19:37,319
hijacking the waver movement and poisoning the minds of the proletariat.

2504
03:19:38,840 --> 03:19:44,520
There there there's a reason why they that was if

2505
03:19:44,559 --> 03:19:49,440
a graver concerned and why it like stirred their hostilities

2506
03:19:49,520 --> 03:19:56,360
so much, because fascism was what a lot of people

2507
03:19:57,559 --> 03:20:03,719
in part probably subconsciously wanted to see develop but they

2508
03:20:03,760 --> 03:20:10,559
didn't have the conceptual vocabulary yet to describe it, but

2509
03:20:10,639 --> 03:20:16,000
they could identify it when they saw it. And especially

2510
03:20:16,079 --> 03:20:18,639
in the UK, the roots of this kind of like

2511
03:20:18,840 --> 03:20:24,680
toxic secularism, it was already like well underway. So you know,

2512
03:20:24,799 --> 03:20:27,040
if you were if you were part of like polite

2513
03:20:27,120 --> 03:20:32,280
society and you're going to look abide bourgeois convention about

2514
03:20:32,319 --> 03:20:38,840
what's morally appropriate, Well you're any any any kind of

2515
03:20:38,920 --> 03:20:43,639
radical or dynamic ideas you have, you're gonna you're gonna

2516
03:20:44,159 --> 03:20:50,239
suggest that those energies be mitigated by appeals to utopian

2517
03:20:50,360 --> 03:20:54,920
socialism and garbage like that. But Wells, I don't think

2518
03:20:54,920 --> 03:21:00,479
Wells was particularly political. I think wellsous he read a

2519
03:21:00,479 --> 03:21:03,239
lot of Carlisle and he he had a belief in

2520
03:21:03,360 --> 03:21:07,000
messianic personages and in history, and he thought hero worship

2521
03:21:07,159 --> 03:21:10,520
was a good thing. And he liked Mussolini and a

2522
03:21:10,600 --> 03:21:14,559
lot of left wingers like Mussolini. But I mean some

2523
03:21:14,760 --> 03:21:17,280
of them for half baked reasons and and for a thing,

2524
03:21:17,440 --> 03:21:22,680
you know, for ill understood and ill understood you know,

2525
03:21:23,600 --> 03:21:28,479
concepts and incomplete understandings. But a lot of them who

2526
03:21:28,559 --> 03:21:33,600
were sophisticated, like Mussolini for reasons that aren't inconsistent with

2527
03:21:34,079 --> 03:21:41,159
you know, they're the core of that ideological culture. That's

2528
03:21:41,200 --> 03:21:46,520
important to keep in mind. And UH already at this

2529
03:21:46,680 --> 03:21:50,959
time mostly's enemies. We were talking about him as like

2530
03:21:51,040 --> 03:21:57,959
the the English Hitler, you know, which was something of

2531
03:21:58,079 --> 03:22:04,639
a backhanded compliment, because Hitler at this point was what

2532
03:22:04,920 --> 03:22:09,959
was killing it, you know. Nineteen twenty nine was the

2533
03:22:10,040 --> 03:22:18,760
real breakthrough, you know. But uh, you know, so Mosley,

2534
03:22:19,280 --> 03:22:24,399
this all, this is this culminated and Moseley establishing the

2535
03:22:24,520 --> 03:22:29,360
New Party, like literally called it the New Party. Mosley

2536
03:22:29,440 --> 03:22:31,280
and his first wife, who also by that time was

2537
03:22:31,319 --> 03:22:37,479
a member of Parliament, and they were joined by a

2538
03:22:37,600 --> 03:22:48,079
cadre of UH labor rights who defected and UH mostly

2539
03:22:48,200 --> 03:22:55,040
was able to support their loyalty by the dissemination of

2540
03:22:55,079 --> 03:23:02,799
a canay known as the Moseley Memo. Okay, it was

2541
03:23:06,000 --> 03:23:10,479
basically capitalizing how we talked about a minute ago, this

2542
03:23:10,760 --> 03:23:16,879
enthusiasm for Mussolini that was born of a you know,

2543
03:23:17,440 --> 03:23:21,559
a belief in the need for like an interventionist restructuring

2544
03:23:21,639 --> 03:23:29,239
of the economy and a belief that at a nascent

2545
03:23:29,319 --> 03:23:37,559
globalized economy, you know it, variables could not be left

2546
03:23:37,559 --> 03:23:42,879
to uncertainty, awaiting structural correction because it would lead to

2547
03:23:42,959 --> 03:23:50,200
one tragedy that commons after another. You know, the people

2548
03:23:50,319 --> 03:23:53,879
like the Nunzio and ft Maria and Nettie among British

2549
03:23:53,920 --> 03:23:58,600
society and like literary circles, they were respected like like

2550
03:23:59,000 --> 03:24:10,680
literate people them and admired their output. You know, Shaw

2551
03:24:10,879 --> 03:24:14,479
himself around this time he said that Mussolini exemplified true

2552
03:24:14,559 --> 03:24:17,600
socialism more than any British labor right. I mean, part

2553
03:24:17,600 --> 03:24:20,840
of that was probably he liked to be an iconoclass,

2554
03:24:20,920 --> 03:24:24,879
but he wasn't wrong. I mean, if as it should

2555
03:24:24,879 --> 03:24:29,920
be clear to anybody who is familiar with the irrelevant

2556
03:24:30,000 --> 03:24:34,680
law and source material. And there was also there there

2557
03:24:34,760 --> 03:24:37,879
was this kind of just like fixation on Caesarism at

2558
03:24:37,920 --> 03:24:40,440
the time in the UK. There's a whole bunch of

2559
03:24:40,520 --> 03:24:44,479
like pop history books that came out about the Roman Empire.

2560
03:24:47,040 --> 03:24:50,840
There's this one popular historian named George P. Baker. He

2561
03:24:50,920 --> 03:24:56,120
wrote this book called Sulla the Fortunate, the Great Dictator.

2562
03:24:58,639 --> 03:25:03,280
There was another book, uh, he wrote un Hannibal. There

2563
03:25:03,360 --> 03:25:08,440
was a bunch of popular biographies that Julius Caesar, you know,

2564
03:25:08,559 --> 03:25:14,360
and they they virtually all of them contained these sorts

2565
03:25:14,399 --> 03:25:19,879
of uh polemic about the contemporary relevance of you know,

2566
03:25:20,879 --> 03:25:25,000
of Caesarism and how like dictatorship is not this evil thing,

2567
03:25:25,760 --> 03:25:30,680
you know, and how history, particularly crisis modalities they're in

2568
03:25:31,719 --> 03:25:35,600
you know, they they select for you know, heroic personages

2569
03:25:35,719 --> 03:25:40,280
like rising to the occasion, you know, and you know

2570
03:25:40,399 --> 03:25:44,520
they you can't just like one of the problems, you know,

2571
03:25:44,840 --> 03:25:46,719
the part of the malaise as well as part of

2572
03:25:46,760 --> 03:25:49,559
the callousness that's let the class war in the UK

2573
03:25:49,920 --> 03:25:52,959
is just kind of like writing off the suffering of

2574
03:25:53,040 --> 03:25:56,319
the of the laboring classes as well. That's that, that's

2575
03:25:56,399 --> 03:25:58,799
just you know, the tragic history. You know that that's

2576
03:25:58,920 --> 03:26:01,040
just you know, the creative struction, you know, where that's

2577
03:26:01,159 --> 03:26:04,719
just you know, corrective mechanisms mean that some people are

2578
03:26:04,799 --> 03:26:08,239
gonna entire classes or of humans are gonna proverbially drown,

2579
03:26:08,600 --> 03:26:12,799
you know, while others you know, swim and fry. You know.

2580
03:26:13,639 --> 03:26:20,600
So there was a much more organic kind of foundation

2581
03:26:22,239 --> 03:26:25,040
the emergency of a British fascism of like a true sort,

2582
03:26:25,280 --> 03:26:27,399
because like we talked about last time, kind of the

2583
03:26:27,479 --> 03:26:31,120
early iterations of like British fascism, it was basically these

2584
03:26:31,159 --> 03:26:34,559
like out of touch Tories who they liked the anti

2585
03:26:34,680 --> 03:26:38,840
communism of Mussolini and the fascists, and they liked the

2586
03:26:38,920 --> 03:26:41,520
pageantry and optics, but they didn't really know what the

2587
03:26:41,600 --> 03:26:44,440
hell they were talking about, you know, or they were

2588
03:26:44,639 --> 03:26:49,319
like symbolton like uh, white racialists like Arnold Leese, who

2589
03:26:50,920 --> 03:26:56,159
were trying to extrapolate, you know, like Darwinian reductionist nonsense

2590
03:26:56,280 --> 03:27:00,639
to you know, to power political affairs. You know that,

2591
03:27:01,200 --> 03:27:03,719
but that that that kind of that kind of bullshit

2592
03:27:04,239 --> 03:27:08,079
had largely been swept away by you know, the climate

2593
03:27:08,120 --> 03:27:11,719
of post nineteen twenty nine for reasons like what I

2594
03:27:11,879 --> 03:27:20,319
just enumerated or elucidated rather so the new party it was,

2595
03:27:21,760 --> 03:27:24,159
it's a sentence. He was brief and kind of meteoric,

2596
03:27:24,479 --> 03:27:30,879
and the foundations of what became the British Union of

2597
03:27:30,959 --> 03:27:39,280
Fascists were absolutely laid during this kind of nascent phase.

2598
03:27:43,120 --> 03:27:47,559
Is December sixth ninety and thirty that mostly he published

2599
03:27:49,319 --> 03:27:52,799
like an expanded and probably probably annotated version of of

2600
03:27:52,879 --> 03:28:04,280
the mostly memorandum, which mostly Uh and his wife, who

2601
03:28:04,360 --> 03:28:06,680
was also a member of Parliament, Like I said, Lady

2602
03:28:06,719 --> 03:28:12,440
Cynthia and Uh, fifteen of these defecting labor MPs signed

2603
03:28:12,479 --> 03:28:18,079
off on it was February ninety thirty one, mostly formally

2604
03:28:18,159 --> 03:28:23,280
resigned from labor. He wants a new party the following day,

2605
03:28:23,920 --> 03:28:38,959
March first, nineteen thirty one. Excuse me, and most of

2606
03:28:39,040 --> 03:28:45,239
these guys, most of these defecting labor rights sat in

2607
03:28:45,280 --> 03:28:55,719
the House of Comments as independence. A couple resigned because

2608
03:28:55,760 --> 03:28:59,840
there's will become player. In hindsight, this early kind of

2609
03:29:00,040 --> 03:29:06,079
cadre that mostly built around himself, with some exceptions, some

2610
03:29:06,239 --> 03:29:09,799
of these people weren't really committed. And even if they were,

2611
03:29:09,959 --> 03:29:12,840
they they didn't. They didn't really They kind of viewed

2612
03:29:12,879 --> 03:29:15,200
Moldy trying to insinuate himself into like a king maker

2613
03:29:15,319 --> 03:29:22,239
role and a spoiler element and if that makes any sense.

2614
03:29:23,040 --> 03:29:25,559
And they figured that, you know, we'll be able to

2615
03:29:25,600 --> 03:29:30,559
like reconstitute the government like within you know, the parameters

2616
03:29:30,600 --> 03:29:37,159
of what's feasible, you know, according to the the political situation,

2617
03:29:38,399 --> 03:29:40,719
you know, according to like what we want to accomplish

2618
03:29:40,799 --> 03:29:46,520
in terms of, you know, repealing these austerity measures and

2619
03:29:47,120 --> 03:29:49,440
and and and creating some kind of corporative structure that

2620
03:29:50,280 --> 03:29:54,920
we'll have permanent legs. That that was not realistic for

2621
03:29:54,920 --> 03:29:56,840
a lot of reasons. That's also not what Mosley was

2622
03:29:56,879 --> 03:30:00,520
trying to do. You all get what I mean in

2623
03:30:00,600 --> 03:30:06,600
a minute. What Moseley was was able to do. He

2624
03:30:06,680 --> 03:30:11,399
started being able to attract money, particularly from some of

2625
03:30:11,440 --> 03:30:18,719
the lesser nobility, and most significantly from UH, this guy

2626
03:30:19,040 --> 03:30:26,840
Lord Newfield, who was trying to carve out a presence

2627
03:30:26,920 --> 03:30:32,280
in print media, and Moseley what he always coveted. He

2628
03:30:32,360 --> 03:30:36,799
knew that William Randolph Hurst wasn't admirer of Mussolini. I

2629
03:30:36,840 --> 03:30:38,719
even know, but I'm getting a little ahead of myself.

2630
03:30:38,760 --> 03:30:42,840
But Moseley's objective was to capture a patreon like a Hearst.

2631
03:30:43,760 --> 03:30:50,239
But what he got was about fifty thousand pounds sterling

2632
03:30:50,319 --> 03:30:57,000
from Newfield, which he utilized to launch a magazine called Action,

2633
03:30:58,639 --> 03:31:04,120
which later kind of morphed into the British Union of

2634
03:31:04,239 --> 03:31:13,479
Fascists newspaper. But as the New Party got underway, there

2635
03:31:13,520 --> 03:31:16,799
was an information blackout from the establishment, so this was

2636
03:31:16,920 --> 03:31:27,760
especially imperative. The New Party produced UH a film a UH.

2637
03:31:28,399 --> 03:31:30,680
It was like one half propaganda film, like one half

2638
03:31:30,760 --> 03:31:36,440
statement of their like platform and court principles. It was

2639
03:31:36,639 --> 03:31:43,639
edited by Harold Nicholson, who was UH who was uh?

2640
03:31:45,360 --> 03:31:46,879
He had he had his he had his hands in

2641
03:31:47,360 --> 03:31:51,879
print media and in the newspaper and publishing industry as

2642
03:31:51,920 --> 03:31:54,959
well as in you know, like the nascent film industry.

2643
03:31:56,159 --> 03:31:58,840
You know, he was uh in the early days that

2644
03:31:58,920 --> 03:32:00,719
you could kind of view him as the new party

2645
03:32:00,799 --> 03:32:09,639
information Minister. And this film was actually very professionally done,

2646
03:32:10,600 --> 03:32:17,159
but uh, it was the the censors bandit on grounds

2647
03:32:17,200 --> 03:32:23,280
that it would quote bring Parliament into disrepute. And there

2648
03:32:23,399 --> 03:32:26,280
was one it was the film was interspersed with like

2649
03:32:26,399 --> 03:32:37,639
dramatic reconstructions and uh, you know, staged scenarios with actual footage,

2650
03:32:38,440 --> 03:32:42,000
and there was some films some parliamentarians literally sleeping while

2651
03:32:42,040 --> 03:32:44,600
comments was in session, and that's what they focused on.

2652
03:32:44,680 --> 03:32:47,399
And they're like, this is a Slanders you know, this

2653
03:32:47,600 --> 03:32:50,079
is this is this is a hit piece on the Commons.

2654
03:32:51,079 --> 03:32:53,520
You know, it's trying to is trying to bring the

2655
03:32:53,600 --> 03:32:59,120
government to disrepute, you know, which was obviously nonsense and

2656
03:32:59,239 --> 03:33:07,000
basically without president other than during wartime, you know, most importantly,

2657
03:33:10,159 --> 03:33:14,479
what Mosey did at this time he established a direct

2658
03:33:14,559 --> 03:33:20,600
action militia. Later they became the Black Shirts cloaqu really

2659
03:33:20,639 --> 03:33:27,040
they were called the Biff Boys. The captain of this

2660
03:33:27,200 --> 03:33:34,559
militia was this English rugby star named Peter Howard and

2661
03:33:35,559 --> 03:33:40,159
Moseley's notion was, you know, we've got I mean, Moseley

2662
03:33:40,239 --> 03:33:43,680
was kind of a rough neck character anyway. You know

2663
03:33:44,639 --> 03:33:46,959
at Sanders, you know, he was known for brawling and

2664
03:33:47,040 --> 03:33:50,000
stuff like just for ships and kicks as well as

2665
03:33:50,040 --> 03:33:52,479
the defend matters of honor. You know, he'd been a

2666
03:33:52,600 --> 03:34:01,040
boxer until some of his uh superiors and uh sort

2667
03:34:01,079 --> 03:34:11,079
of mentors like advised him, you know, you you should

2668
03:34:11,120 --> 03:34:14,479
take up a gentleman's sport like fencing. That's what he did.

2669
03:34:14,600 --> 03:34:17,639
But you know, well he really did have like a

2670
03:34:17,799 --> 03:34:21,639
thug element to him, you know, and uh so, I

2671
03:34:21,719 --> 03:34:24,479
mean he he enjoyed that kind of stuff, but also

2672
03:34:24,840 --> 03:34:27,639
it was essential and he saw the writing on the wall.

2673
03:34:28,399 --> 03:34:33,079
And even at this time he'd been watching what the

2674
03:34:33,200 --> 03:34:39,719
Hitler government was was doing or when the National so

2675
03:34:40,200 --> 03:34:41,959
he was watching like what the National Souls had been

2676
03:34:42,040 --> 03:34:46,000
doing when they broke through to the to the Reichs.

2677
03:34:46,559 --> 03:34:49,840
This is before this was just before Hitler was made

2678
03:34:49,959 --> 03:34:58,360
Chancellor Reichs Kosler. But you know, he realized that you know,

2679
03:34:58,719 --> 03:35:02,040
the least are problems are gonna be the fact that

2680
03:35:02,399 --> 03:35:04,719
you know, our movies aren't aren't shown in the cinema,

2681
03:35:04,760 --> 03:35:09,479
and there's a blackout on on our affairs and our

2682
03:35:09,840 --> 03:35:14,639
successes and in in in print media. You know where

2683
03:35:15,399 --> 03:35:17,280
we're We're gonna have to fight it out in the

2684
03:35:17,360 --> 03:35:20,440
street if if we're gonna break through like the National

2685
03:35:20,559 --> 03:35:27,200
Socialists did and and like the Fascists did, and uh,

2686
03:35:27,600 --> 03:35:30,559
like I said, although most of what the New Party,

2687
03:35:32,040 --> 03:35:38,159
most of its sociological kind of infrastructure was shed by

2688
03:35:38,200 --> 03:35:43,319
the time they rebranded as the b UF, but the

2689
03:35:43,440 --> 03:35:46,360
New Party, the New Party youth militia, you know, which

2690
03:35:46,479 --> 03:35:52,879
became the black Shirts like that that remained. The first

2691
03:35:52,959 --> 03:35:58,879
electoral contest was that, uh, it was for There was

2692
03:35:58,920 --> 03:36:05,200
a by election for Ashton under Lynn Line because the

2693
03:36:05,360 --> 03:36:09,120
MP had died in office. Ellen Young, who was an

2694
03:36:09,159 --> 03:36:23,639
early Mosley acolyte, stood against William Risdon and there the

2695
03:36:23,719 --> 03:36:26,159
New Party had only a threadbare organization on the ground.

2696
03:36:27,680 --> 03:36:34,680
Young polled fifteen or sixteen percent, which effectively did split

2697
03:36:34,760 --> 03:36:38,680
the labor vote and allowed a consertive MP to return

2698
03:36:38,760 --> 03:36:42,239
to the Commons, which could be viewed as a mission accomplished,

2699
03:36:42,280 --> 03:36:45,200
because I mean that did force people to take the

2700
03:36:45,280 --> 03:36:57,840
mostly organizations seriously. But again, even even at this early stage,

2701
03:36:58,120 --> 03:37:00,719
mostly wasn't trying to position himself as spoiler, and he

2702
03:37:00,840 --> 03:37:05,040
wasn't the permise. The New Party wasn't like the Dixie

2703
03:37:05,079 --> 03:37:10,200
Kratz or something who were you know, had in mind

2704
03:37:10,280 --> 03:37:12,399
what Wallace was trying to accomplish, not like the I mean,

2705
03:37:12,440 --> 03:37:16,040
what Wallace accomplished was was remarkable when I in the

2706
03:37:16,120 --> 03:37:21,280
American system. That was kind of a stroke and genius.

2707
03:37:21,440 --> 03:37:26,479
But I'm not suggesting something punitive about that. But that's

2708
03:37:26,600 --> 03:37:31,399
simply now what Mosey was trying to accomplish. The kind

2709
03:37:31,399 --> 03:37:42,559
of critical the kind of critical event or juncture was

2710
03:37:45,520 --> 03:37:51,440
when Moseley, in a delegation of a new Party types

2711
03:37:52,120 --> 03:37:54,959
went to Rome. Mosey went to Rome twice. He went

2712
03:37:55,079 --> 03:38:01,920
in ninety thirty two and ninety thirty three, and uh,

2713
03:38:06,200 --> 03:38:14,000
the both of these were instrumental in uh the fortunes

2714
03:38:14,079 --> 03:38:18,959
of ah of what became the b u F as

2715
03:38:19,000 --> 03:38:24,959
well as in Moseley's kind of personal development as a

2716
03:38:25,479 --> 03:38:32,840
as a fascist. And at this time too, Moseley issued

2717
03:38:32,879 --> 03:38:42,479
a statement and he said that, uh, he said that

2718
03:38:42,639 --> 03:38:47,479
class war and particularly the situation of the communists and

2719
03:38:49,159 --> 03:38:55,680
some of the affiliated trade union movements. He said that

2720
03:38:55,760 --> 03:38:57,840
that he said, uh, this this was both to be

2721
03:38:57,879 --> 03:39:01,319
an internal memo, but it was, it was leaked. I

2722
03:39:01,440 --> 03:39:04,079
think people speculate it might have been deliberately leaked by

2723
03:39:04,120 --> 03:39:07,719
Mosley himself. I don't believe that, but I I there

2724
03:39:07,799 --> 03:39:10,479
might have been some like Legered Maine on the side

2725
03:39:10,479 --> 03:39:13,600
of the New Party that just it's kind to bring

2726
03:39:13,639 --> 03:39:19,399
attention to the organization. But uh well, he was accused

2727
03:39:19,440 --> 03:39:25,920
of welcoming revolutionary conditions because he said that he said

2728
03:39:25,959 --> 03:39:29,360
that we need, we need some sort of class war,

2729
03:39:32,040 --> 03:39:38,760
at least the threat of it, to facilitate what he

2730
03:39:38,840 --> 03:39:43,399
called a provocative rather than tranquilizing effect. And he directly

2731
03:39:43,479 --> 03:39:48,840
referred to the situation in Vaimar and in Italy. And

2732
03:39:49,319 --> 03:39:54,200
he was savaged in the mainstream press. You know, he

2733
03:39:54,360 --> 03:39:58,200
was called an anarchist, he was called a communist. He

2734
03:39:58,360 --> 03:40:02,280
was accused and in an open session of the Commons

2735
03:40:02,360 --> 03:40:08,440
of quote cynically welcoming disorder as a way of publicizing

2736
03:40:08,520 --> 03:40:11,799
his readiness to deal with red disruption and the quote.

2737
03:40:16,639 --> 03:40:21,440
Malsey's rebuttal was he said, our long term purpose and

2738
03:40:21,479 --> 03:40:23,719
needs a quote to be to take control of a

2739
03:40:23,799 --> 03:40:36,680
revolutionary situation, which is absolutely correct. But this made headlines

2740
03:40:36,799 --> 03:40:41,399
quite literally, not just in the UK, but also on

2741
03:40:41,559 --> 03:40:50,040
the continent. And this is also when he began openly

2742
03:40:51,319 --> 03:40:55,280
within his inner circle, and particularly in the way he

2743
03:40:55,360 --> 03:41:03,280
addressed the the new Party militia. He started pulling out

2744
03:41:03,360 --> 03:41:10,760
the National Socialist Movement, it's the model organization. In June

2745
03:41:12,799 --> 03:41:18,879
nineteen thirty one, he actually sent to emissaries Major Thompson

2746
03:41:18,879 --> 03:41:24,879
and Leslie Cummings to Germany to liaise with National Socialists

2747
03:41:25,799 --> 03:41:33,680
and to talk to ESA cadres and gal Lighters and

2748
03:41:33,719 --> 03:41:38,000
whoever else to get an audience with about you know,

2749
03:41:38,120 --> 03:41:41,280
the the director action methods employed you know, in the

2750
03:41:41,319 --> 03:41:50,600
revolutionary conditions, and they actually visited, uh, the brown House

2751
03:41:50,680 --> 03:41:59,000
in Munich, you know, National Socialist headquarters. And this very

2752
03:41:59,120 --> 03:42:06,079
much came from Moseley. The party had more of a

2753
03:42:09,079 --> 03:42:13,360
a committee structure. There wasn't the kind of furre prin

2754
03:42:13,479 --> 03:42:19,079
zip or equivalent, but Moseley controlled h the party's funds,

2755
03:42:20,040 --> 03:42:25,719
and UH ultimately, i mean policy emanated from from him

2756
03:42:25,799 --> 03:42:31,440
and his pen you know. So the it's not as

2757
03:42:31,479 --> 03:42:34,840
if he fell into the influence of UH like at

2758
03:42:34,840 --> 03:42:38,440
the time, like UH, some of his like well intentioned

2759
03:42:39,440 --> 03:42:44,760
but misguided friends and then and this kind of mythology endured,

2760
03:42:44,879 --> 03:42:47,959
like for decades for people thinking that this was like

2761
03:42:49,639 --> 03:42:51,600
you know, they were helping Mosley or his memory like

2762
03:42:51,639 --> 03:42:53,959
oh he just fell into the influence of fascists. You

2763
03:42:54,000 --> 03:42:57,319
know that this Mosely was was was misled. I mean

2764
03:42:57,360 --> 03:42:59,760
that that's not a sense. I mean, for all kinds

2765
03:42:59,760 --> 03:43:02,920
of that should be obvious. But but he wasn't. He

2766
03:43:03,159 --> 03:43:05,879
he didn't go into the sway of some like Nazi

2767
03:43:06,079 --> 03:43:14,680
cadre or whatever like or you know what whatever whatever whatever,

2768
03:43:14,760 --> 03:43:18,120
some of these Tory types like admired and admire Mosley

2769
03:43:18,319 --> 03:43:23,879
like like to claim. But that's also the effect that

2770
03:43:24,079 --> 03:43:31,959
like Alan Young, you know who who stood for who

2771
03:43:32,040 --> 03:43:34,440
stood you know who challenged the by election and the

2772
03:43:34,520 --> 03:43:38,040
new party ticket. You know, he he he left the

2773
03:43:38,079 --> 03:43:40,479
party immediately when it became clear that you know, they

2774
03:43:40,520 --> 03:43:55,159
were moving towards over at fishism. Beaverbrook uh said, correctly,

2775
03:43:57,479 --> 03:43:59,799
he said not, he said, any party that's going to

2776
03:44:00,040 --> 03:44:07,559
Ellene the establishment for for the loyalty of the body politic,

2777
03:44:08,520 --> 03:44:14,600
but especially you know, like a fascistic element would require

2778
03:44:15,319 --> 03:44:18,440
He meant sums of money, but also like a base

2779
03:44:18,559 --> 03:44:26,040
of true journalistic support, you know, and in Mosley's view,

2780
03:44:26,200 --> 03:44:29,520
you know, raising money, money is always a problem. But

2781
03:44:29,799 --> 03:44:36,120
that's but it's a problem to be remedied overcoming what

2782
03:44:36,280 --> 03:44:41,200
he called, not incorrectly, the conspiracy of silence in media

2783
03:44:41,479 --> 03:44:48,159
was was the real issue. And so I mean the branding,

2784
03:44:48,239 --> 03:44:51,159
I mean, not gonna be wrong was a He was

2785
03:44:51,200 --> 03:44:54,040
a doctrinaire fascist and kind of the pure purest sense,

2786
03:44:54,120 --> 03:45:01,840
but he he knew that uh ran off Hers, for example,

2787
03:45:04,239 --> 03:45:10,639
had invested over a million dollars in uh Mussolini's cause

2788
03:45:10,920 --> 03:45:16,559
early on, just for the sake of a disseminating you know,

2789
03:45:16,639 --> 03:45:26,000
the fascist position and and facilitating the psychological effect of

2790
03:45:26,079 --> 03:45:30,239
it being you know, like a truly ubiquitous movement, you know,

2791
03:45:30,280 --> 03:45:35,360
and in those days, like print media was really the

2792
03:45:35,440 --> 03:45:37,520
only game in town, and like day to day like

2793
03:45:37,639 --> 03:45:42,000
poral terms, you know, I mean, like yeah, you visual

2794
03:45:42,120 --> 03:45:46,680
media nascent as it was, it had a huge impact,

2795
03:45:47,920 --> 03:45:52,360
but that was expensive, It was infrequent, and you know,

2796
03:45:52,440 --> 03:45:58,840
you needed uh, you needed uh you basically needed like

2797
03:45:58,920 --> 03:46:03,879
a newspaper that was already established that would carry the

2798
03:46:06,639 --> 03:46:10,159
your Propagandanese, you know. And the way the National Socialist

2799
03:46:10,200 --> 03:46:15,600
accomplished accomplished that was somewhat unusual. But it was a

2800
03:46:15,760 --> 03:46:19,840
very different media culture on the continent. And especially in

2801
03:46:20,559 --> 03:46:27,760
especially in Germany. And also it was uh, I mean

2802
03:46:27,840 --> 03:46:30,920
not this isn't a discussion of the the German situation,

2803
03:46:31,239 --> 03:46:35,719
but it doesn't need to be noted. You know, Hitler's

2804
03:46:35,799 --> 03:46:40,399
barnstorming was something that made up for a lot of

2805
03:46:40,440 --> 03:46:45,079
the you know, a lot of these a lot of

2806
03:46:45,120 --> 03:46:51,680
these kind of shortfalls in and in an active propaganda sector,

2807
03:46:52,319 --> 03:46:55,000
you know. But like that wasn't that wasn't feasible in

2808
03:46:55,040 --> 03:46:57,319
the United Kingdom for a few different reasons. And also

2809
03:46:58,719 --> 03:47:00,479
like the UK, it was only the first true kind

2810
03:47:00,520 --> 03:47:04,840
of like newspaper culture in my opinion, you know, like

2811
03:47:04,959 --> 03:47:07,319
way more so than the United States, although the United

2812
03:47:07,360 --> 03:47:09,440
States it was even more so than on the continent.

2813
03:47:09,600 --> 03:47:15,120
But that's that's kind of a subject for its own

2814
03:47:16,440 --> 03:47:28,840
dedicated God. But when uh, when mod the actually when

2815
03:47:28,879 --> 03:47:32,440
he visited Rome for the first time in januaryety thirty two,

2816
03:47:36,239 --> 03:47:41,399
he justified it to uh, the party cadre as uh,

2817
03:47:41,639 --> 03:47:43,200
you know, we need we need to study you know,

2818
03:47:43,319 --> 03:47:50,799
the modern fascist movement wherever it lives, you know, and

2819
03:47:50,920 --> 03:47:54,079
he all he intended on visiting, he intended on visiting

2820
03:47:54,280 --> 03:47:57,200
the Soviet Union too. Well, that never came to fruition

2821
03:48:00,559 --> 03:48:08,159
because knowing against he did that. Uh, you know, Mussolini

2822
03:48:08,239 --> 03:48:14,840
spent a lot of time studying Leninist political warfare the

2823
03:48:14,959 --> 03:48:20,760
Soviet Union as a Stalin who was truly kind of

2824
03:48:20,799 --> 03:48:31,719
consolidating the critical infrastructure. It wasn't it wasn't really clear

2825
03:48:32,680 --> 03:48:38,879
what the internal situation was in the Soviet Union, like

2826
03:48:39,200 --> 03:48:43,079
oh oh, but what was clear was that, you know,

2827
03:48:46,120 --> 03:48:51,760
against all expectations and against all probabilities, you know, a

2828
03:48:51,840 --> 03:48:58,559
revolutionary cadre structure without real support on that body politic

2829
03:48:58,639 --> 03:49:03,239
at scale, was able to conquer the largest country on

2830
03:49:03,319 --> 03:49:14,360
this planet. You know, just for context. But in In

2831
03:49:16,479 --> 03:49:18,799
and plus two, like Lenin had that there'd been a

2832
03:49:18,879 --> 03:49:23,399
weird uh kind of conceptual discourse with In the communists

2833
03:49:23,399 --> 03:49:32,719
and Mussolini. Like before uh, in Mussolini's revolutionary socialist days,

2834
03:49:34,680 --> 03:49:39,879
Lenin had viewed him as, uh like, the most potentially

2835
03:49:42,719 --> 03:49:45,200
if you, Lenin viewed him as the revolutionary on the

2836
03:49:45,280 --> 03:49:52,040
content with the most potential Mussolini, and interestingly Lenin. Lenin

2837
03:49:52,159 --> 03:49:55,159
believed that Mussolini had been corrupted by his experience at

2838
03:49:55,200 --> 03:50:01,200
the front and that the the option of the Fascist

2839
03:50:01,399 --> 03:50:07,319
Party platform was both cynical and pragmatic, and you know,

2840
03:50:08,479 --> 03:50:13,440
owing to communist epistemic assumptions. You know, well, you know,

2841
03:50:13,559 --> 03:50:16,399
Mussolini was co opted by capitalists, you know, because this

2842
03:50:16,440 --> 03:50:19,079
is this is this is just you know, a crisis

2843
03:50:19,159 --> 03:50:24,319
modality of capitalism, and it's it's drawing upon symbolic psychology

2844
03:50:24,440 --> 03:50:28,559
to you know, to convince people that it represents a

2845
03:50:28,559 --> 03:50:32,079
different tendency when it's it's really it's it's really just

2846
03:50:32,319 --> 03:50:36,719
you know, crisis mode industrial capitalism under like a different

2847
03:50:38,000 --> 03:50:43,799
apparently fresh guys. But Moti was treated like a celebrity

2848
03:50:44,040 --> 03:50:50,479
in Italy, which is which is interesting because Mussolini notoriously

2849
03:50:52,639 --> 03:51:01,000
was not welcoming of people who were you know, propractical

2850
03:51:01,079 --> 03:51:04,559
purposes like making Hodge the fascist Italy to you know,

2851
03:51:04,719 --> 03:51:09,040
pay homage, to tell duce or to try and glean

2852
03:51:11,079 --> 03:51:15,719
some some some esoteric knowledge of of of of revolutionary

2853
03:51:17,639 --> 03:51:23,479
ambition or something or political soldiery. You know. It's but uh,

2854
03:51:25,319 --> 03:51:30,520
the Italians I think had a certain The Italians and

2855
03:51:30,559 --> 03:51:33,479
the English traditionally kind of respected each other. Each respects

2856
03:51:33,520 --> 03:51:36,399
the other for what they're not, for what they themselves

2857
03:51:36,440 --> 03:51:40,959
are not. I think that's part of it. But you know,

2858
03:51:41,079 --> 03:51:50,120
it's also the key to justice. Hitler recognized, you know, uh,

2859
03:51:50,680 --> 03:51:55,120
most leading was more of early ecumenical in ideological terms.

2860
03:51:55,280 --> 03:51:57,879
I mean, Hitler was no German nationalists, quite the opposite.

2861
03:51:57,879 --> 03:52:00,840
I mean we've discussed that before. However, Hitler didn't view

2862
03:52:01,840 --> 03:52:09,239
national socialism as some ideological paradigm that was you know,

2863
03:52:10,159 --> 03:52:18,680
universally applicable to you know, world historical processes. You know.

2864
03:52:18,879 --> 03:52:22,280
That's why, with the exception of the independent State of Croatia,

2865
03:52:24,280 --> 03:52:29,479
Hitler really didn't back you know, like national socialist movements

2866
03:52:29,559 --> 03:52:35,920
like out outside of the core of the Reich. Mussolini

2867
03:52:36,040 --> 03:52:42,200
believed in a fascist international quite literally, and there actually

2868
03:52:42,440 --> 03:52:46,559
was like a Fascist International conference, which I think is

2869
03:52:46,600 --> 03:52:50,879
a really fancying topic in nineteen thirty five, I think,

2870
03:52:52,360 --> 03:52:56,120
but because it may like despite somebody congruously like Musolini

2871
03:52:56,239 --> 03:53:01,840
was notorious for snubbing you know, fascist cadres and and

2872
03:53:01,959 --> 03:53:06,120
their leadership elopment when they got to visit, but Mussolini

2873
03:53:06,360 --> 03:53:11,040
was uh was treated uh or Mosey was treated like uh,

2874
03:53:12,000 --> 03:53:17,319
you know, like a like a celebrity in Italy. And

2875
03:53:21,239 --> 03:53:34,239
they interestingly too and one of uh like Musolani's or

2876
03:53:34,280 --> 03:53:37,639
uh MOS's biographies tend to fall back. They they didn't

2877
03:53:37,639 --> 03:53:39,799
have fallen one side or the other of this issue,

2878
03:53:42,239 --> 03:53:45,600
some people claim that Mosei wasn't at all anti Semitic.

2879
03:53:45,639 --> 03:53:47,079
I mean, I don't like that term, but just for

2880
03:53:47,159 --> 03:53:56,239
the sake of you know, intelligibility, Fascist Italy in the

2881
03:53:56,399 --> 03:54:01,280
they there were race laws that were basically reflected the

2882
03:54:01,399 --> 03:54:07,120
Nuremberg laws that were passed later on in part owing

2883
03:54:07,239 --> 03:54:10,360
to a I think the brutalizing effect of the war

2884
03:54:11,360 --> 03:54:16,719
as well as the increasing influence of the Reich on

2885
03:54:16,840 --> 03:54:22,959
their internal situation. So there wasn't there wasn't this like

2886
03:54:23,000 --> 03:54:28,959
a hard and fast like racialism in Italy. But to

2887
03:54:29,079 --> 03:54:33,200
say like they weren't like anti Jewish in political terms,

2888
03:54:33,319 --> 03:54:37,959
I think it's naive, eve and just like incorrect. You know,

2889
03:54:40,360 --> 03:54:45,000
Mosley had some prominent Jews in his inner circle, at

2890
03:54:45,120 --> 03:54:51,000
least in the New Party days. You know, Mosey being

2891
03:54:51,079 --> 03:54:57,000
like an avid boxing aficionado throughout his whole life. There's

2892
03:54:57,040 --> 03:55:03,879
a weltaorweight Champigne saw mendel Off. He fought under the

2893
03:55:03,920 --> 03:55:06,559
name kid Lewis. You know, he was like an ethnic

2894
03:55:06,680 --> 03:55:11,479
Jew and he and he'd he'd do security with them,

2895
03:55:14,079 --> 03:55:16,879
you know, with what became the black Shirts, you know,

2896
03:55:19,719 --> 03:55:22,639
and uh, he seemed very much to be on board

2897
03:55:22,680 --> 03:55:25,319
with the program. He wasn't just doing it for money

2898
03:55:25,479 --> 03:55:35,200
or nothing. On the head order mostly Uh never shied

2899
03:55:36,120 --> 03:55:42,799
from the Jewish question later on, but he he also

2900
03:55:42,879 --> 03:55:50,840
never talked about it in biologically racialist terms. I think

2901
03:55:50,879 --> 03:55:53,559
that owes the internal situation of the UK. I don't.

2902
03:55:53,600 --> 03:55:58,639
I don't. I think it owes any emulation in Mussolini

2903
03:55:58,840 --> 03:56:05,079
is as some sort of moral arbiter of a fascist

2904
03:56:05,159 --> 03:56:08,399
ethics or something. But I just put that out there

2905
03:56:08,399 --> 03:56:10,319
because I know it's gonna come up either in the

2906
03:56:10,399 --> 03:56:13,879
comments or you know, people are gonna want to discuss it,

2907
03:56:14,280 --> 03:56:18,399
which is fine. I'm not saying they shouldn't, but it

2908
03:56:18,559 --> 03:56:24,840
was that was Uh, that was the true turning point,

2909
03:56:25,239 --> 03:56:32,559
in my opinion. I think by nineteen thirty one mostly

2910
03:56:32,680 --> 03:56:37,040
was a fascist and in all but name, but after

2911
03:56:38,440 --> 03:56:43,000
after the return from Italy, and obviously it was you know,

2912
03:56:44,040 --> 03:56:50,639
it was mere months not years later that the BUF

2913
03:56:50,879 --> 03:57:01,440
was was consolidated, essentially by assimilating all the fascist elements

2914
03:57:02,040 --> 03:57:11,040
that exhibited any viability and gameness. And in England and Scotland, interestingly,

2915
03:57:11,719 --> 03:57:18,159
you know, one of the things that caused UH most

2916
03:57:18,239 --> 03:57:27,120
the initial falling out with with his National Liberal fellows

2917
03:57:28,079 --> 03:57:30,200
was on the Irish issue and what he viewed as their,

2918
03:57:30,520 --> 03:57:37,280
you know, adject callousness towards the Irish. In Scotland, many

2919
03:57:37,399 --> 03:57:41,440
if not most, of the fascists of any significance fascist

2920
03:57:41,479 --> 03:57:45,799
cadres they were, They were arch loyalists. They were very sectarian.

2921
03:57:46,799 --> 03:57:54,840
And Billy Fullerton he was the He was a gangster

2922
03:57:55,000 --> 03:58:00,680
and he was the original, the original Billy Boys mob.

2923
03:58:01,600 --> 03:58:04,120
You know, they were like a they were a sectarian

2924
03:58:04,319 --> 03:58:12,719
uh gang and uh he was a b UF partisan.

2925
03:58:13,719 --> 03:58:19,479
So that that led to kind of a delicate situation,

2926
03:58:20,639 --> 03:58:26,000
which I think what it caused, uh a real rift

2927
03:58:27,000 --> 03:58:31,040
had the b U f had had to I mean,

2928
03:58:31,079 --> 03:58:33,879
the b UF fortunes ultimately became an extrictly bound up

2929
03:58:33,959 --> 03:58:36,760
with that of the access in the German Reich for

2930
03:58:36,840 --> 03:58:42,680
obvious reasons, and the Kingdom of Italy. Had UH, had

2931
03:58:42,760 --> 03:58:51,360
fascism endured in a counterfactual historical scenario, it's an interesting

2932
03:58:51,520 --> 03:58:57,440
question like how the matter of Ireland and sectarian hostility

2933
03:58:58,040 --> 03:59:02,879
would have played out. But that's probably too kind of

2934
03:59:03,159 --> 03:59:08,200
speculative and abstract. But I think we're coming up in

2935
03:59:08,239 --> 03:59:12,079
about an hour. I promise will wrap it up in

2936
03:59:12,120 --> 03:59:17,639
the next episode. I hope this was informative and entertaining

2937
03:59:18,040 --> 03:59:22,000
to all the subs and not just dry and trivial.

2938
03:59:22,559 --> 03:59:24,319
But like I said, this is a subject near and

2939
03:59:24,399 --> 03:59:28,840
dear to my heart in addition to being you know

2940
03:59:29,799 --> 03:59:32,760
very much in my very you know very much kind

2941
03:59:32,760 --> 03:59:35,079
of at the center of my research interest. So yeah,

2942
03:59:35,200 --> 03:59:38,000
we'll reconvene in a few days. I'm going on vacation

2943
03:59:38,120 --> 03:59:42,159
this weekend. I know you know that, but I think

2944
03:59:42,200 --> 03:59:44,760
I deserve a Thomas cation. Like I travel a lot,

2945
03:59:44,840 --> 03:59:46,399
but you know not, probably seems like I don't do

2946
03:59:46,559 --> 03:59:50,680
much like on these traveling johnts like I just saw.

2947
03:59:51,000 --> 03:59:53,920
We just saw each other in Atlanta, yeah, man, which

2948
03:59:54,000 --> 03:59:57,920
was great. Yeah. But I'll be back Sunday night, and

2949
03:59:59,239 --> 04:00:01,760
I I'll be crossing paths with a bunch of the

2950
04:00:01,799 --> 04:00:07,280
OGC guys, so I'll give them your best course. Yeah.

2951
04:00:07,520 --> 04:00:10,200
But yeah, well, we'll reconvene as soon as I get back. Man.

2952
04:00:10,920 --> 04:00:13,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think anybody, any of the subs are

2953
04:00:13,159 --> 04:00:15,719
going to complain about five episodes on mister Mosley. So

2954
04:00:17,840 --> 04:00:18,680
do you quick plugs?

2955
04:00:19,479 --> 04:00:20,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.

2956
04:00:20,239 --> 04:00:20,399
Speaker 1: Man.

2957
04:00:22,639 --> 04:00:25,879
Speaker 2: The best place to seek out my content is this

2958
04:00:26,360 --> 04:00:30,600
substick is real Thomas seven seven seven at subsec dot com.

2959
04:00:31,719 --> 04:00:34,200
I Uh, I'm a good count of with my friend Rake,

2960
04:00:34,280 --> 04:00:39,280
who who edited our movie. When I get back from Arkansas,

2961
04:00:39,719 --> 04:00:43,440
we're gonna release the movie and I'm gonna release steel

2962
04:00:43,479 --> 04:00:48,200
Storm too, and not steel Storm two. I mean in addition, also,

2963
04:00:50,159 --> 04:00:53,559
I've got plenty of mind Piacer season three content that

2964
04:00:53,959 --> 04:00:57,280
is on schedule to be released bi weekly moving forward.

2965
04:00:57,920 --> 04:01:00,440
But uh, I know there's been some delay. He's in

2966
04:01:01,360 --> 04:01:03,680
steel Storm, and I want to keep people posted on

2967
04:01:03,799 --> 04:01:06,840
the movie. But as soon as I get back, I'm

2968
04:01:06,840 --> 04:01:08,879
going to decide the best way to upload it, like

2969
04:01:09,040 --> 04:01:12,719
in terms of what platforms. And I'm very excited and

2970
04:01:13,000 --> 04:01:16,719
I think people will really enjoy it. But I'm on

2971
04:01:16,840 --> 04:01:21,040
social media. My alt is at Capital r e A

2972
04:01:21,239 --> 04:01:24,760
L Underscore number seven h m as seven seven seven.

2973
04:01:26,200 --> 04:01:29,360
You can always visit. My website is Thomas seven seven

2974
04:01:29,479 --> 04:01:34,239
seven dot com, but it's it's it's under construction. I mean,

2975
04:01:34,399 --> 04:01:37,360
you can still access it and stuff, but it needs work.

2976
04:01:37,440 --> 04:01:39,520
And I've got a lot of my play right now.

2977
04:01:39,680 --> 04:01:43,760
But that's gonna get resolved too, I promise. But yeah,

2978
04:01:43,959 --> 04:01:48,719
that's that's uh, that's what I got, and that's all

2979
04:01:48,760 --> 04:01:53,280
not feeling great, So forgive me if I I forgive me,

2980
04:01:53,360 --> 04:01:57,000
if this was less cogent than it should have been.

2981
04:01:57,920 --> 04:02:00,799
Speaker 1: I don't think any I don't think anything. I don't

2982
04:02:00,799 --> 04:02:02,520
think anybody will be able to tell you we're sick.

2983
04:02:02,680 --> 04:02:04,719
This was this was, this was great.

2984
04:02:05,120 --> 04:02:07,000
Speaker 2: Okay, No, thank you. I appreciate that.

2985
04:02:07,079 --> 04:02:09,639
Speaker 1: Until until episode five, thank you very much.

2986
04:02:09,799 --> 04:02:10,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you.

2987
04:02:12,159 --> 04:02:13,760
Speaker 1: I want to welcome here for one back to the

2988
04:02:13,799 --> 04:02:18,719
Pecamano show. Thomas is here and we will continue talking

2989
04:02:18,719 --> 04:02:21,600
about mister Oswald Mosley. How are you doing, Thomas.

2990
04:02:22,000 --> 04:02:25,479
Speaker 2: I'm doing well, so I think that's There's two things

2991
04:02:25,520 --> 04:02:29,719
that I think are very interesting about the period of

2992
04:02:29,760 --> 04:02:36,360
about nineteen thirty one nineteen thirty three, you know, not

2993
04:02:36,520 --> 04:02:39,879
just because that was the national Socialist descendancy and that

2994
04:02:40,079 --> 04:02:46,799
changed things globally quite literally, but especially it changed the

2995
04:02:46,840 --> 04:02:50,120
perception of fascism, but not not in ways that people

2996
04:02:50,200 --> 04:02:56,120
might think in that early on, okay. And also I

2997
04:02:56,239 --> 04:03:02,760
made mention before that most considered himself an accolade of Kenes,

2998
04:03:03,920 --> 04:03:09,360
and Keenes actually thought highly of Moseley, and he endorsed

2999
04:03:09,399 --> 04:03:13,639
his economic model, you know, and like later, like like,

3000
04:03:13,760 --> 04:03:18,000
the British establishment had a strange relationship with Keenes on

3001
04:03:18,040 --> 04:03:22,920
account of this. You know, they'd held him out as

3002
04:03:23,559 --> 04:03:28,719
kind of like the savior of of the global economy,

3003
04:03:29,000 --> 04:03:33,799
the nacent global economy, so it was not anybody's interest

3004
04:03:33,959 --> 04:03:38,479
to slander him or try and sideline him on ground

3005
04:03:38,600 --> 04:03:42,319
that he was some sort of unpatriotic fascist sympathizer. But

3006
04:03:42,440 --> 04:03:49,760
they stopped trusting him after that. And you know, I'll

3007
04:03:49,760 --> 04:03:51,840
get into this too, but like the British Home Office,

3008
04:03:52,040 --> 04:03:58,479
when it became clear MOSIC actual support, they issued the

3009
04:03:58,600 --> 04:04:02,879
statement that was deliberately leaked about how, oh, the British

3010
04:04:02,959 --> 04:04:07,319
Union of Fascists, it's populated by criminals and men who

3011
04:04:07,399 --> 04:04:10,639
find themselves in trouble with the law. And it's you know,

3012
04:04:10,760 --> 04:04:13,879
and and and and commoners and servants, you know, and

3013
04:04:14,040 --> 04:04:15,840
and men who don't have the skills to make it

3014
04:04:15,920 --> 04:04:18,799
in the industrial economy. That was completely at odds of reality.

3015
04:04:19,399 --> 04:04:21,440
You had a bunch of guys, the kinds of guys

3016
04:04:21,479 --> 04:04:23,760
who ended up settling Rhodesia. You had a bunch of

3017
04:04:23,879 --> 04:04:27,479
like really game n CEOs for war heroes. You had

3018
04:04:27,479 --> 04:04:30,319
a bunch of young guys who kind of had a

3019
04:04:30,399 --> 04:04:33,040
resume like oral did. They'd been to Burma, they'd been

3020
04:04:33,120 --> 04:04:36,639
to it, they'd been to India, they'd been to Africa. Like,

3021
04:04:36,760 --> 04:04:40,920
these guys were adventure hungry, like very like you know,

3022
04:04:41,600 --> 04:04:46,280
kind of marshall oriented like like very tough people, and

3023
04:04:47,159 --> 04:04:50,719
they were kind of the backbone of the late British Empire.

3024
04:04:51,159 --> 04:04:54,280
They were the kinds of guys who joined like the

3025
04:04:54,360 --> 04:04:56,399
Black and Tans. Like I'm not saying that's like a

3026
04:04:56,479 --> 04:04:59,559
good thing to do, but like these were very aggressive

3027
04:04:59,639 --> 04:05:03,559
people who believed in in you know, in Britain. Like

3028
04:05:03,639 --> 04:05:08,639
there's the kinds of guys who you know, uh joined

3029
04:05:08,680 --> 04:05:13,040
the the uh answer to the call and Ulster, you know,

3030
04:05:13,159 --> 04:05:16,479
the thirty six Ulted Division and got creamed at the Somme.

3031
04:05:16,879 --> 04:05:19,680
There are the guys, the guys who he signed up

3032
04:05:19,760 --> 04:05:22,360
to be constabulate police and Burma Like that's one of

3033
04:05:22,399 --> 04:05:25,479
the reasons why they were dangerous the establishment. See this

3034
04:05:25,600 --> 04:05:27,399
is this is like the myth about like fascists, and

3035
04:05:27,399 --> 04:05:29,120
it's like, on the one hand, it's like, oh, fascists

3036
04:05:29,120 --> 04:05:31,280
are a bunch of no account losers who live with

3037
04:05:31,399 --> 04:05:33,719
their mom and can't stay out of jail. But then

3038
04:05:33,719 --> 04:05:35,879
on the other hand, it's supposed to the most dangerous

3039
04:05:35,920 --> 04:05:39,120
people anywhere. It's like, which is it, you know, so

3040
04:05:39,200 --> 04:05:46,120
that this this mythology very much. Uh. You know that

3041
04:05:46,239 --> 04:05:48,680
that was kind of like the founding narrative because early

3042
04:05:48,799 --> 04:05:55,000
on Chamberlain's ascendency after MacDonald and when Churchill was kind

3043
04:05:55,000 --> 04:05:58,719
of on the outset, everybody, you know, the the the

3044
04:05:59,120 --> 04:06:02,520
British street didn't particularly like Hitler, but they viewed him

3045
04:06:02,600 --> 04:06:05,639
like they did Mussolini, Like they viewed him as as

3046
04:06:05,639 --> 04:06:10,040
an incredibly important figure and a consummantly serious guy. You

3047
04:06:10,120 --> 04:06:17,319
know this like like you know, and if for nonother

3048
04:06:17,479 --> 04:06:23,200
if for no other reason, you know, people forget that

3049
04:06:23,280 --> 04:06:26,719
the prospect of a communist revolution in the UK and

3050
04:06:26,840 --> 04:06:30,559
specifically in England, that was a very real possibility. That

3051
04:06:30,680 --> 04:06:36,680
wasn't that That wasn't like nonsense, That wasn't like air nonsense.

3052
04:06:37,040 --> 04:06:39,959
You know, uh, where these like Bircher types of bandy

3053
04:06:40,040 --> 04:06:42,840
that like the Communists are gonna take over Iowa. There's

3054
04:06:42,879 --> 04:06:49,000
a reason why Mark said that in his mind, you know,

3055
04:06:49,200 --> 04:06:51,559
a Marxist letn this revolution was gonna happen in the UK,

3056
04:06:53,200 --> 04:06:58,680
and it'd be staved off for a time in Germany

3057
04:06:58,760 --> 04:07:04,719
because Germany had already moved towards state socialism. But you know,

3058
04:07:04,799 --> 04:07:07,239
this is a very real danger and even a lot

3059
04:07:07,319 --> 04:07:11,239
of even a lot of polite society types who who

3060
04:07:11,360 --> 04:07:14,719
thought that the BUF for bully boys and thought that

3061
04:07:14,840 --> 04:07:20,520
Molesey was kind of a dangerous, sinister person. They were like,

3062
04:07:20,559 --> 04:07:23,719
I'm glad that these guys are are stomping communists, you know,

3063
04:07:23,799 --> 04:07:29,639
I'm glad that if push came to shove, you know,

3064
04:07:29,760 --> 04:07:33,559
we we'd have this like vanguard of of of men

3065
04:07:33,680 --> 04:07:38,360
to deal with it, you know. And I'm getting a

3066
04:07:38,360 --> 04:07:40,879
old bit ahead of myself, but you know, one of

3067
04:07:40,879 --> 04:07:50,559
the things that happened the National Socialist descendancy in uh

3068
04:07:51,959 --> 04:07:57,159
in March nineteen thirty three, the National Socialists, they pulled

3069
04:07:57,239 --> 04:08:02,879
forty three point nine percent in the rights February twenty

3070
04:08:03,000 --> 04:08:06,760
eighth of nineteen thirty three was the reichsteg Fire Decree,

3071
04:08:08,000 --> 04:08:12,520
which for all practical purposes banned the Communist Party and

3072
04:08:12,920 --> 04:08:17,879
Ernst Tolloman got arrested. Like how the different like how

3073
04:08:17,920 --> 04:08:24,239
they constituent elements of of of the former German Empire

3074
04:08:27,399 --> 04:08:31,239
dealt with the reichsteg Fire Decree varied because there was

3075
04:08:31,280 --> 04:08:36,360
still something of a devult federalism at play. That was

3076
04:08:36,680 --> 04:08:38,920
that was all done by by nineteen thirty five thirty

3077
04:08:39,040 --> 04:08:46,520
six but even even in gues and you know, territories

3078
04:08:46,600 --> 04:08:49,000
that were friendly to the National Socialists or at least

3079
04:08:49,040 --> 04:08:56,040
like not unfriendly, Hitler and Hindenburg weren't issuing Dick Todds.

3080
04:08:56,079 --> 04:08:57,799
And this is how you must handle. This is how

3081
04:08:57,840 --> 04:09:02,799
he must implement the reichschdeg decree. So the Communists still

3082
04:09:02,840 --> 04:09:05,639
has some breathing rooms some places, but for all practical purpose,

3083
04:09:05,680 --> 04:09:09,959
but their leadership had been arrested. The storm up to

3084
04:09:10,079 --> 04:09:13,120
them was was was was stomping the ship out of them.

3085
04:09:14,920 --> 04:09:17,479
You know, they had the entire state apparatus turning on them.

3086
04:09:17,520 --> 04:09:20,120
And the most important thing is the KPD can no

3087
04:09:20,159 --> 04:09:23,719
longer send delegates to the Reichstag. So for all practical purposes,

3088
04:09:23,879 --> 04:09:27,280
in political terms, the National Soldists had a super majority,

3089
04:09:27,639 --> 04:09:30,760
and like parliamentary terms, you know, although not in like yeah,

3090
04:09:30,840 --> 04:09:34,840
sweet population terms. Why the Communists responded to that was

3091
04:09:35,879 --> 04:09:39,719
the Communists declared, like a united front, and they're like

3092
04:09:39,760 --> 04:09:42,280
from now on, like, we're not gonna we're not gonna

3093
04:09:42,319 --> 04:09:47,040
antagonize labor parties, We're not gonna antagonize Democratic socialists. We've

3094
04:09:47,159 --> 04:09:49,040
like we got to present a united front to fight

3095
04:09:49,120 --> 04:09:55,840
the fascists, you know, and Uh, this had real implications

3096
04:09:55,879 --> 04:10:00,079
on the British street because up until then, one of

3097
04:10:00,120 --> 04:10:04,200
the things that early on before the BUF of the

3098
04:10:04,280 --> 04:10:07,719
b UF when it was under the banner of the

3099
04:10:07,879 --> 04:10:12,680
New Party, the Independent Labor Rights mostly advantaged to poach

3100
04:10:12,719 --> 04:10:18,959
a lot of those guys, including his original head of security,

3101
04:10:21,319 --> 04:10:24,479
which later became like the direct action element, like the

3102
04:10:24,600 --> 04:10:27,559
Fascist Action Force, which was basically like the b UFS

3103
04:10:27,680 --> 04:10:29,479
like stir upped along. I'll get it at a minute.

3104
04:10:29,559 --> 04:10:33,079
But the reason why the Independent Labor Rights gravit hated

3105
04:10:33,120 --> 04:10:35,079
to the fascists like it wasn't just because a lot

3106
04:10:35,120 --> 04:10:37,559
of these guys are basically patriotic, even though they were

3107
04:10:37,600 --> 04:10:41,280
you know, like left wing, but the communists were attacking

3108
04:10:41,319 --> 04:10:45,399
their meetings and and and uh and stopping them out

3109
04:10:45,760 --> 04:10:48,920
because basically it was like, you're not, no, nobody's gonna

3110
04:10:49,000 --> 04:10:52,200
ride under the red banner unless they're communists, you know,

3111
04:10:52,280 --> 04:10:54,520
when they stopped doing that because basically wanted to put

3112
04:10:54,559 --> 04:10:58,399
bodies in the street and and and smash the the fascists.

3113
04:10:59,840 --> 04:11:03,799
And this really alarmed people, as it should have because

3114
04:11:05,239 --> 04:11:11,360
revolutionary conditions were brewing, and in Moseley's view, moy moy

3115
04:11:11,399 --> 04:11:14,040
got a pretty nuanced view of this. You know, he

3116
04:11:14,200 --> 04:11:17,920
was not by any means as symboled in on political matters,

3117
04:11:17,920 --> 04:11:20,760
Like nobody would have said he was dumb in absolute terms,

3118
04:11:20,799 --> 04:11:27,120
but he was actually very sophisticated in practice and theory

3119
04:11:27,239 --> 04:11:32,200
of politics. And his view was, I don't think the

3120
04:11:32,280 --> 04:11:36,879
Communists can win here. But he's like, politics have become

3121
04:11:36,959 --> 04:11:42,040
starkly binary, you know, and there is no position anymore

3122
04:11:42,079 --> 04:11:44,559
other than that of a fascist or that of of

3123
04:11:44,799 --> 04:11:49,920
of the Bolsheviks. You know, that does not there's not

3124
04:11:50,079 --> 04:11:53,959
like a discursive space outside of that, you know, And

3125
04:11:55,200 --> 04:11:59,280
how Churchill and the focus hijacked policy, that owe to

3126
04:11:59,319 --> 04:12:03,639
the fact that things had things had abated in a

3127
04:12:03,719 --> 04:12:08,239
large part, especially after the Communists lost in Spain and

3128
04:12:08,360 --> 04:12:11,719
they lost in Germany. You know, people got to understand

3129
04:12:11,799 --> 04:12:14,719
that the Communists were winning at this point. You know,

3130
04:12:16,040 --> 04:12:18,360
this was still three years before the Spanish were even

3131
04:12:18,479 --> 04:12:23,559
kicked off. You know, they definitely had momentum on their side.

3132
04:12:25,399 --> 04:12:31,000
And that's I mean, I think, wellse he was a

3133
04:12:31,079 --> 04:12:36,680
fascist anyway, and if you read what he wrote, especially

3134
04:12:38,159 --> 04:12:44,200
when he was outlining the corporatist model, and that was

3135
04:12:44,239 --> 04:12:48,000
its first real long form political testament, was the coming

3136
04:12:48,079 --> 04:12:53,200
corporate state and then attracted again not only the praise

3137
04:12:53,239 --> 04:12:56,319
at Keenes, but guys like George Bernard Shaw. And Shaw

3138
04:12:56,440 --> 04:12:59,559
was still addressing Fabian society meetings, but he was talking

3139
04:12:59,680 --> 04:13:05,280
like a ash just you know. And even in the

3140
04:13:05,360 --> 04:13:10,360
twentieth century, I mean even even in the Inner Warriors,

3141
04:13:12,079 --> 04:13:16,959
a lot of people still who weren't particularly sympathetic to

3142
04:13:17,040 --> 04:13:23,639
communism or particularly left wing in their colleagues. That's just

3143
04:13:23,760 --> 04:13:30,040
where the animating energy was in political life as they

3144
04:13:30,159 --> 04:13:35,639
gravitated to. I mean, obviously after ninety forty five, that's

3145
04:13:35,680 --> 04:13:40,959
where anybody with any radical inclination was funneled due because

3146
04:13:42,559 --> 04:13:45,719
the Zech guys wouldn't permit anything else, because anything else

3147
04:13:45,760 --> 04:13:51,239
would have been a fool's Errand but the fastest perspective

3148
04:13:51,319 --> 04:13:53,479
in the UK, I'm not going to continent was a

3149
04:13:53,600 --> 04:13:57,680
minority perspective, you know, not as much of one as

3150
04:13:57,760 --> 04:13:59,799
the Home Office wanted to do allege, but it wasn't.

3151
04:14:00,120 --> 04:14:02,520
It was a minority perspective, and only certain kinds of

3152
04:14:02,600 --> 04:14:09,840
men found a home there. And uh so that's important

3153
04:14:09,879 --> 04:14:13,959
to that's important to understand. I think some people who

3154
04:14:14,000 --> 04:14:19,000
don't understand the history, they've got a tendency to consider

3155
04:14:19,120 --> 04:14:23,079
Moseley in some because they watched bullshit like Peaky Blinders,

3156
04:14:23,159 --> 04:14:26,760
and they had they had this character in their mind

3157
04:14:26,799 --> 04:14:30,159
of Moseley as being as being like George Lokt rock Well,

3158
04:14:30,239 --> 04:14:33,280
but with a lamey accent or something that's completely off base,

3159
04:14:34,120 --> 04:14:35,639
you know, Like I said, that's one of the reasons

3160
04:14:35,680 --> 04:14:38,600
why despite what I view of as some of his

3161
04:14:38,760 --> 04:14:43,680
blind spots in the post warriors and moss a hero

3162
04:14:43,840 --> 04:14:46,120
of mine, he was a great man. And you know,

3163
04:14:49,079 --> 04:14:53,600
in part I consider on those terms because he he

3164
04:14:53,719 --> 04:14:59,079
was a sophisticated political theorist, and as was Mussolini in

3165
04:14:59,120 --> 04:15:00,840
his own right, and most Lene was kind of the

3166
04:15:01,360 --> 04:15:06,200
kind of like the right wing Lenin. You know, Mosey

3167
04:15:06,280 --> 04:15:08,559
wasn't just a tad lest sophisticated guy and like a

3168
04:15:08,680 --> 04:15:13,280
tough individually every sophisticated view of politics, and a lot

3169
04:15:13,319 --> 04:15:17,559
of that ode I believe to you know, his familial

3170
04:15:18,040 --> 04:15:22,040
lineage and things. But it was October nineteen thirty one

3171
04:15:22,719 --> 04:15:30,760
that's been mostly formally broke with conventional politics, and in part,

3172
04:15:30,920 --> 04:15:33,559
like I just mentioned, that was because of what he

3173
04:15:33,639 --> 04:15:38,959
observed as the experience of the Independent Labor Party, and

3174
04:15:39,079 --> 04:15:44,879
for clarity, the Independent Labor Party broke with the mainstream

3175
04:15:44,959 --> 04:15:48,239
labor rights because they viewed them as basically like a

3176
04:15:48,360 --> 04:15:52,079
stop gap was either like a they view people like

3177
04:15:52,200 --> 04:15:56,200
McDonald is kind of like trying to force a stop

3178
04:15:56,319 --> 04:16:01,799
gap solution whereby you know, a parliamentary so because you know,

3179
04:16:01,840 --> 04:16:04,920
where were some concessions would be granted to the laboring classes,

3180
04:16:05,000 --> 04:16:08,520
but essentially the system would remain as it is. Or

3181
04:16:09,399 --> 04:16:13,079
they viewed it as a you know, a mechanism of

3182
04:16:13,120 --> 04:16:21,520
active sabotage of revolutionary ambitions. Okay. And as the Independent

3183
04:16:21,639 --> 04:16:27,920
Labor Party developed, you know, a direct action capability at

3184
04:16:27,920 --> 04:16:31,959
a presence on the street, like the communists began not

3185
04:16:32,159 --> 04:16:34,399
first they began disrupting them, and then when they didn't

3186
04:16:34,440 --> 04:16:36,680
quit what they were doing in the communis started violently

3187
04:16:36,719 --> 04:16:41,520
assaulting them. Like it got so violent that the ILP

3188
04:16:42,000 --> 04:16:44,920
they couldn't carry on the business of electioneering, you know.

3189
04:16:44,920 --> 04:16:48,200
And Mose was looking at this, and Molesey's like, okay,

3190
04:16:48,360 --> 04:16:49,879
if this, if this is the way that, if this

3191
04:16:49,959 --> 04:16:54,280
way the left is treating one of their own sectarian tendencies.

3192
04:16:56,079 --> 04:16:58,920
You know, we're we're we're we're tripping over our own

3193
04:16:59,000 --> 04:17:03,120
feet proverb speaking, and thinking that you know, some kind

3194
04:17:03,120 --> 04:17:05,959
of some kind of patriotic alternative to the Tories or

3195
04:17:06,040 --> 04:17:09,159
the you know, or the National Unity Party as it

3196
04:17:09,280 --> 04:17:15,000
was called, is viable, you know. And one of the uh,

3197
04:17:17,360 --> 04:17:24,360
John Beckett, who uh himself had been one of the

3198
04:17:24,399 --> 04:17:31,280
main organizers of the i LP before they before they disbanded.

3199
04:17:31,319 --> 04:17:35,399
For all practical purposes, he'd set up his own defense force,

3200
04:17:35,799 --> 04:17:37,799
you know, like like stir them up to long type

3201
04:17:37,799 --> 04:17:42,840
element because he'd been a boxer, you know. And he

3202
04:17:43,000 --> 04:17:47,479
ultimately clicked up with Mosley when Moseley set up the

3203
04:17:47,559 --> 04:17:52,520
New Party and this kind of became the background of

3204
04:17:52,559 --> 04:17:54,360
the British This kind of became the backbone of the

3205
04:17:54,399 --> 04:17:57,079
British Union of Fascists, you know, like guys like this,

3206
04:18:00,479 --> 04:18:04,479
you know. And uh, this is also when the seed

3207
04:18:04,639 --> 04:18:10,920
was planted in his mind of cultivating a direct action

3208
04:18:11,200 --> 04:18:16,000
element like a party militia which preceded the British Union

3209
04:18:16,040 --> 04:18:20,879
of Fascists, you know it uh, the like like the

3210
04:18:21,040 --> 04:18:23,840
the New Party youth movement.

3211
04:18:25,840 --> 04:18:26,280
Speaker 1: Was uh.

3212
04:18:27,760 --> 04:18:31,799
Speaker 2: What was was mostly called them the shock Troops as

3213
04:18:31,879 --> 04:18:35,600
well as the security et Schalona the New Party and

3214
04:18:36,120 --> 04:18:39,360
this became a lot more formalized obviously as the b

3215
04:18:39,520 --> 04:18:43,680
UF became the British Union a Fascists and they were

3216
04:18:43,719 --> 04:18:49,920
the first guys to wear the UH where the you know,

3217
04:18:50,040 --> 04:18:52,959
the the flash in the circle. You know, it represents

3218
04:18:53,000 --> 04:18:56,440
action within unity, but originally it was it was the UH.

3219
04:18:58,479 --> 04:19:05,440
It was the direct to action element, the you know,

3220
04:19:05,520 --> 04:19:07,840
the youth cores that that wore those. And then because

3221
04:19:07,879 --> 04:19:10,120
initially the British Union of Fascist their symbol is a

3222
04:19:10,200 --> 04:19:13,520
fascion's just like the Italians, that's all. But surely it

3223
04:19:13,639 --> 04:19:17,159
developed its own aesthetic. And incidentally, you know, Mosley had

3224
04:19:17,200 --> 04:19:19,639
been a champion fencer and he kept it up like

3225
04:19:20,000 --> 04:19:24,479
even into his political career. The British Unit of Fascist

3226
04:19:24,520 --> 04:19:26,879
black uniform. It looks like a futurist kind of thing,

3227
04:19:26,959 --> 04:19:32,520
and and it is. But the tunic is a fencing tunic,

3228
04:19:33,200 --> 04:19:36,639
like painted or dyed black, you know, in part because

3229
04:19:37,600 --> 04:19:40,440
it's it was it's like a primitive form of body armor.

3230
04:19:41,200 --> 04:19:45,799
But also UH, it was supposed to represent UH like

3231
04:19:46,040 --> 04:19:49,440
UH kind of like the dialectical collision and resolution of

3232
04:19:50,120 --> 04:19:52,959
you know, like the past and like things like swordsmanship

3233
04:19:53,079 --> 04:19:55,639
with like the future, you know, which I think is

3234
04:19:55,680 --> 04:20:02,040
really cool. But and it was also distinctive from both

3235
04:20:02,079 --> 04:20:08,360
the National Socialists and and and UH the National Fascist

3236
04:20:08,479 --> 04:20:15,200
Party in Italy. But it was in October of thirty

3237
04:20:15,280 --> 04:20:19,120
one that Uh, it's kind of that, that's like the

3238
04:20:19,200 --> 04:20:24,280
seminal date that you know, like Mosley abandoned normal parliamentarism,

3239
04:20:24,920 --> 04:20:32,879
but the Mosie also he held something in common with Kadrianu.

3240
04:20:34,360 --> 04:20:37,079
He didn't know Kadrianu. I think he probably knew i

3241
04:20:37,280 --> 04:20:39,360
On Mota, and I'll get into why I think that

3242
04:20:40,000 --> 04:20:44,959
as we proceed. I On Mota was the right hand

3243
04:20:45,040 --> 04:20:49,079
man of Codrianu. He fell fighting the Communists in Spain,

3244
04:20:49,760 --> 04:20:55,079
and he was very much martyred. Vasil Martine who is

3245
04:20:55,120 --> 04:20:59,000
his comrade, another Iron Guard guy. They're about Kia and

3246
04:20:59,680 --> 04:21:02,799
this was like this was like a rallying point for

3247
04:21:02,959 --> 04:21:09,399
fascists when when they were killed. And Mota had an

3248
04:21:09,479 --> 04:21:13,159
internationalist few of fascism, which I find which is important

3249
04:21:13,159 --> 04:21:16,280
to our discussion. But those are just interesting on its own,

3250
04:21:18,479 --> 04:21:25,159
interesting on on its own terms. But the UH, interestingly

3251
04:21:25,959 --> 04:21:38,920
to the UH, the new Party UH youth militia. These

3252
04:21:38,959 --> 04:21:42,799
guys at first were surreptitiously attending Communist meetings to kind

3253
04:21:42,840 --> 04:21:46,360
of see what their ops were doing, but they ended

3254
04:21:46,479 --> 04:21:50,280
up actually poaching a fair number of communist members to

3255
04:21:50,360 --> 04:21:54,239
their ranks, which is interesting. And these guys moved in

3256
04:21:54,280 --> 04:21:57,239
a lot of similar social circles and mostly did them

3257
04:21:57,280 --> 04:22:01,159
very deliberately. Like the reason I made that drew the

3258
04:22:01,200 --> 04:22:04,120
analogy to Quadrianna in the early Iron Guard. Most he

3259
04:22:04,239 --> 04:22:06,399
believed very much. He said, we got to concentrate on

3260
04:22:06,520 --> 04:22:09,360
like a cell structure, and you've got to do stuff

3261
04:22:09,399 --> 04:22:13,479
like insinuating, you know, our peoples into athletic clubs and

3262
04:22:13,600 --> 04:22:16,760
like social clubs. But where people are serious, you know,

3263
04:22:16,920 --> 04:22:19,719
it's like, what do we need to poach the youngsters,

3264
04:22:20,760 --> 04:22:25,840
you know, for for the UH, for the youth militia

3265
04:22:26,079 --> 04:22:28,479
you know from like boxing and fencing clubs. You know,

3266
04:22:28,520 --> 04:22:30,280
we need we need to poach older guys, you know,

3267
04:22:30,920 --> 04:22:33,200
from like the Fabian Society. And some of these guys

3268
04:22:33,239 --> 04:22:38,479
who you know are are you know, bright intellectual lights

3269
04:22:38,680 --> 04:22:41,879
in the communist movement, but who obviously don't really belong

3270
04:22:41,879 --> 04:22:44,520
in their own to their patriotic bona fides, which was

3271
04:22:44,600 --> 04:22:48,040
which might seem like a foreund conclusion, but the UK

3272
04:22:48,239 --> 04:22:50,239
is not America and like it's not the same thing.

3273
04:22:51,120 --> 04:22:54,920
You know. That that was actually pretty radical thinking and

3274
04:22:55,159 --> 04:22:58,600
not particularly easy to accomplish. But one of the things

3275
04:22:58,600 --> 04:23:02,799
about Mosley being a lesser aristocrat and his like unique

3276
04:23:02,879 --> 04:23:16,360
background and his family's heritage literally of crushing radical elements

3277
04:23:18,559 --> 04:23:21,879
and his ability to kind of like move in different circles,

3278
04:23:23,000 --> 04:23:24,600
as well as the fact he was a genuine man

3279
04:23:24,680 --> 04:23:29,399
of action, this like allowed him to kind of jump

3280
04:23:29,479 --> 04:23:34,920
the the class and cast barriers which to this day

3281
04:23:36,600 --> 04:23:41,479
remain quite rigid in the UK for like a developed country.

3282
04:23:41,680 --> 04:23:53,879
It's it's anachronistic, you know. But uh, and what's most

3283
04:23:54,200 --> 04:23:58,079
and what I think I I mean, I think it's

3284
04:23:58,319 --> 04:24:04,159
I think it's someone indisputable, you know, Moseley, despite Diana

3285
04:24:04,280 --> 04:24:07,959
Mosley's personal friendship with Adolf Hitler, which was a very

3286
04:24:08,000 --> 04:24:11,559
real thing. That's not Home Office propaganda and it's not

3287
04:24:12,959 --> 04:24:18,680
creative license like court historians. It was. It was very real.

3288
04:24:20,040 --> 04:24:30,280
But aside mold of that and the superficial commonalities between

3289
04:24:31,040 --> 04:24:34,120
the National Socialists and the buf MO was it was

3290
04:24:34,159 --> 04:24:37,440
first and foremost the fascist, you know, and his view

3291
04:24:37,520 --> 04:24:44,120
of fascism was distinct. It wasn't merely derivative. But I'll

3292
04:24:44,159 --> 04:24:47,959
get into such as the Italians developed a fascist and

3293
04:24:48,040 --> 04:24:51,360
called it a Fascist International, which had some success and

3294
04:24:51,559 --> 04:24:55,079
I'll get into that because it's important. One of the

3295
04:24:55,120 --> 04:24:58,639
reasons they liked Moseley. It wasn't just because he liaised

3296
04:24:58,719 --> 04:25:03,360
with them personally and that made Mussolini feel important and

3297
04:25:03,440 --> 04:25:09,159
the obviously had a genuine rapport, but also mostly didn't

3298
04:25:09,200 --> 04:25:13,639
abide National Socialist race doctrine. You know, he just didn't

3299
04:25:13,799 --> 04:25:18,559
like That's not to say it was something egalitarian. He

3300
04:25:18,719 --> 04:25:22,360
was very anti Jewish, though not not in like racialist terms.

3301
04:25:23,200 --> 04:25:28,000
He was very pro white visa via the white dominions

3302
04:25:28,000 --> 04:25:29,799
of the UK and what do you imagine the future

3303
04:25:29,799 --> 04:25:32,639
of them being. But you know, he didn't have any

3304
04:25:32,680 --> 04:25:35,479
time for this kind of stuff that guys like Arnold

3305
04:25:35,559 --> 04:25:38,520
Lease did you know, who spend his days kind of

3306
04:25:38,559 --> 04:25:44,440
pouring over stuff that Julius Striker published, or you know,

3307
04:25:44,520 --> 04:25:49,799
this kind of a Darwinian racialist stuff and is a

3308
04:25:49,920 --> 04:25:53,799
model for for a political doctrine, you know, And and

3309
04:25:53,879 --> 04:26:00,239
the Italians approved of it. I don't think a lot

3310
04:26:00,280 --> 04:26:03,399
of the National Socialist leadership cast didn't go for that either,

3311
04:26:03,559 --> 04:26:06,840
but a lot did. And Germany, like the United States,

3312
04:26:07,280 --> 04:26:11,639
that's something people just accepted. They thought that that's they

3313
04:26:11,680 --> 04:26:15,719
thought that that was the essence of racial persona if

3314
04:26:15,760 --> 04:26:19,799
you will. My friend Giles was nice enough to publish

3315
04:26:19,920 --> 04:26:24,879
a an article I wrote on that I guess more

3316
04:26:24,879 --> 04:26:26,000
of an essay really, but.

3317
04:26:29,760 --> 04:26:30,399
Speaker 1: You know the.

3318
04:26:32,159 --> 04:26:34,680
Speaker 2: Ninety thirty one also, I mean this is when Keenes

3319
04:26:34,760 --> 04:26:40,399
is openly this when King was openly banning mostly as

3320
04:26:40,479 --> 04:26:48,079
a progressive thinker and an important man. You know, Keenes

3321
04:26:48,120 --> 04:26:52,159
that sympathized with the national government when he viewed it

3322
04:26:52,200 --> 04:26:54,520
as viable, and that wasn't unusual. I actually have some

3323
04:26:54,639 --> 04:26:57,479
respect for Ramsey McDonald, like we talked about last time,

3324
04:26:57,559 --> 04:27:00,440
and I think the time before, I think Donald was

3325
04:27:00,479 --> 04:27:03,239
in an impossible situation and as a head of government

3326
04:27:03,280 --> 04:27:05,760
and a parliamentary system. Okay, I mean you take the

3327
04:27:05,879 --> 04:27:10,479
fall for the failure of that government or coalition, okay,

3328
04:27:10,639 --> 04:27:16,559
But you know, Kings. I think Keings was is essentially

3329
04:27:16,680 --> 04:27:21,600
worthless as an economist in terms of you know, true

3330
04:27:21,680 --> 04:27:26,879
economic theory. But I understand the limitations of the time,

3331
04:27:27,520 --> 04:27:30,920
and frankly, that's why everybody became a Kensian. This idea

3332
04:27:31,040 --> 04:27:35,360
that you know, it's a kind of embrace of anarchism

3333
04:27:35,479 --> 04:27:40,600
to just put the nuances of of of of a

3334
04:27:40,719 --> 04:27:44,719
rapidly integrating global economy just you know, be like left

3335
04:27:44,760 --> 04:27:48,319
to left to fate or chance, you know, the the

3336
04:27:48,360 --> 04:27:54,280
inability to to code data correctly and to identify what

3337
04:27:54,479 --> 04:27:59,879
variables must be coded, and most importantly, the inability to

3338
04:28:01,079 --> 04:28:07,280
register information in real time, which we didn't acquire until

3339
04:28:07,319 --> 04:28:10,280
the two thousands. Really, you know, I made the point

3340
04:28:10,319 --> 04:28:11,840
again and again that some you know, some of even

3341
04:28:11,879 --> 04:28:14,159
something like the crash of eighty seven, like wouldn't happen

3342
04:28:14,399 --> 04:28:18,120
or couldn't happen again, like structurally it's precluded, but you

3343
04:28:18,200 --> 04:28:24,559
know it. It's the equivalent of it's like talking about

3344
04:28:26,440 --> 04:28:30,639
it'd be like, uh, throwing shade on pythagorasts. This is

3345
04:28:30,639 --> 04:28:33,440
probably imperfect analogy because I'm not a math a math

3346
04:28:33,520 --> 04:28:36,040
guy at all. It'd be like throwing shade a pathagorists

3347
04:28:36,079 --> 04:28:40,239
because to him, like the theoretical math was restricted by

3348
04:28:40,639 --> 04:28:47,840
you know, like available instruments like an amicus. Okay, The

3349
04:28:48,200 --> 04:28:52,799
technology is just positive in these things, especially when you're

3350
04:28:52,799 --> 04:28:59,760
talking about systems where you know variables and the ability

3351
04:28:59,799 --> 04:29:02,920
to corral, identify them, corral them, and calculate them or

3352
04:29:03,760 --> 04:29:09,120
is entirely contingent upon high tech, you know. And this

3353
04:29:09,280 --> 04:29:13,879
is exacerbated in economics because time is of the essence

3354
04:29:13,920 --> 04:29:17,120
in a way is not and other endeavors except for

3355
04:29:17,200 --> 04:29:19,840
maybe warfare. I'm sure Marxis would have something to say

3356
04:29:19,879 --> 04:29:23,120
about that. That's a truce. But uh, I think the

3357
04:29:23,200 --> 04:29:31,000
Soubs understand what I mean, you know, and the Kens

3358
04:29:31,079 --> 04:29:36,799
also accepted. Uh. He basically accepted Moses's paradigm of politics

3359
04:29:36,840 --> 04:29:39,479
moving forward, that it was going to become very binary.

3360
04:29:40,239 --> 04:29:42,360
And one of the few things Shumpeter is always putting

3361
04:29:42,360 --> 04:29:45,079
out and Kens that agreed on was that a communist

3362
04:29:45,120 --> 04:29:50,639
revolution is probably inevitable. You know. Schumpeter thought this could

3363
04:29:50,680 --> 04:29:55,280
be staved off by concessions of the body politique and

3364
04:29:55,479 --> 04:30:02,000
by you know, a prosperity aready having a you know,

3365
04:30:02,159 --> 04:30:07,680
as corrective functions set in in the globalizing economy that

3366
04:30:07,719 --> 04:30:10,879
would have an effect of kind of neutralizing the most

3367
04:30:11,040 --> 04:30:16,520
radical elements. But Keeens was looking at this as basically

3368
04:30:16,559 --> 04:30:20,399
a neutral arbiter and he's like, okay, you know, if

3369
04:30:21,440 --> 04:30:24,600
if you want to preclude a Soviet style nightmare here,

3370
04:30:24,680 --> 04:30:28,360
there's got to be some kind of planned economy. And

3371
04:30:28,520 --> 04:30:33,079
the corporate state was basically it was basically kind of

3372
04:30:33,120 --> 04:30:37,799
like a demand sider's dream. And I would argue that

3373
04:30:37,920 --> 04:30:45,600
the strange as it might seem as a model of

3374
04:30:45,840 --> 04:30:53,920
administrative efficiency. I think that the British system in the

3375
04:30:54,040 --> 04:30:57,959
nineteen twenties and thirties, like the inter war system, I

3376
04:30:58,000 --> 04:31:02,120
think it was uniquely situated to administer something like the

3377
04:31:02,280 --> 04:31:06,920
corporate the corporate is model it was. It would not

3378
04:31:07,120 --> 04:31:09,200
have led to long term prosperity. There would have been

3379
04:31:09,319 --> 04:31:13,360
terrible problems. But in terms of mitigating the initial crisis

3380
04:31:14,319 --> 04:31:19,280
and facilitating short term development in a punctuated way, which

3381
04:31:19,319 --> 04:31:23,120
in turn would have generated real capital, I think it

3382
04:31:23,319 --> 04:31:29,159
probably would have worked very well. Okay. I don't want

3383
04:31:29,200 --> 04:31:33,639
somebody to cut that out of contact and then say

3384
04:31:33,680 --> 04:31:35,600
I'm some kind of fuck had Keenesian, because I'm not

3385
04:31:35,719 --> 04:31:39,200
at all, Okay, so please don't do that. I mean,

3386
04:31:39,200 --> 04:31:41,280
it's funny sometimes when people do that, but that's that

3387
04:31:41,319 --> 04:31:45,159
wouldn't be funny. I mean it would be you know

3388
04:31:45,159 --> 04:31:51,639
what I mean. In the event, January ninety and thirty

3389
04:31:51,680 --> 04:31:57,479
two is when that's when Moldly made it second visit

3390
04:31:57,559 --> 04:32:04,920
the room, and that the MOSI truly became a fascist, Okay,

3391
04:32:06,440 --> 04:32:10,680
and Mossoleny very much kind of cultivated this. I mean,

3392
04:32:10,680 --> 04:32:12,000
I don't I don't think I don't I don't think

3393
04:32:12,040 --> 04:32:13,959
Mosley was some kind of simpleton and it was taken

3394
04:32:14,000 --> 04:32:18,520
in by the the kind of hero cult of a

3395
04:32:18,559 --> 04:32:20,879
little duche. I mean, I'm sure he was somewhat. I mean,

3396
04:32:20,920 --> 04:32:23,760
anybody would be like like Mussolini was an impressive man,

3397
04:32:23,840 --> 04:32:26,879
and he was a man's man and just a remarkable guy.

3398
04:32:27,000 --> 04:32:30,280
But i you know, mo Mosley was young, but he'd

3399
04:32:31,360 --> 04:32:35,120
you know, he was a combat veteran, he he was

3400
04:32:35,200 --> 04:32:39,920
a he was an aristocrat. He was a natural leader

3401
04:32:40,200 --> 04:32:44,319
like he he he wasn't somebody who was snowed or

3402
04:32:44,760 --> 04:32:48,719
by this kind of thing. You know, Why did why

3403
04:32:48,799 --> 04:32:53,399
did Mussolini cultivate Mosley so much? I mean, I think

3404
04:32:54,120 --> 04:32:59,360
especially when initially there's mutual respect, but there was a

3405
04:32:59,479 --> 04:33:03,879
coldness that mostly in the exhibited towards Hitler. In contrast, okay,

3406
04:33:03,959 --> 04:33:07,040
like you has a few things. You know, the Italians,

3407
04:33:07,080 --> 04:33:12,200
despite what they might say then or now, they they

3408
04:33:12,319 --> 04:33:17,360
want the approval of the British, you know, I mean

3409
04:33:17,400 --> 04:33:19,400
the British kind of cult, not kind of the British

3410
04:33:19,479 --> 04:33:23,279
do kind of covet the aspects of their own kind

3411
04:33:23,279 --> 04:33:27,159
of racial and national character that are lacking and that

3412
04:33:27,240 --> 04:33:33,400
are expressed with great vitality and in continental people and

3413
04:33:33,439 --> 04:33:37,360
specifically you know, people as in passion as the Italians.

3414
04:33:37,439 --> 04:33:40,080
But you know, there's a there was a huge prestige

3415
04:33:40,119 --> 04:33:42,959
in those days to the British Empire, and it's like

3416
04:33:43,159 --> 04:33:46,000
some vestige of that indoors today, albeit a shadow of

3417
04:33:46,080 --> 04:33:49,319
its former self. But so there is that. But also,

3418
04:33:51,200 --> 04:33:56,520
you know, contra the National Socialists and Hitler specifically, this

3419
04:33:56,680 --> 04:33:58,919
caused some tension with Hitler in the SS. That's way

3420
04:33:58,959 --> 04:34:02,240
too much of a tangent, you know, other than the

3421
04:34:02,279 --> 04:34:05,680
independent State of Croatia, which was a totally unique case,

3422
04:34:06,639 --> 04:34:10,599
and the relationship of the Croats is that people of

3423
04:34:10,639 --> 04:34:14,080
the Germans is unique. The only thing comparable really is

3424
04:34:14,319 --> 04:34:19,279
like the Serbs are to the to the Russians. But

3425
04:34:22,279 --> 04:34:25,799
the Hitler government went out of their way to disabuse

3426
04:34:25,919 --> 04:34:30,840
anybody of you know, including their staunch allies, of any

3427
04:34:30,959 --> 04:34:33,439
sense that we're going to try and model our government

3428
04:34:33,599 --> 04:34:39,560
on the national social estate. The fascists are trying to

3429
04:34:39,599 --> 04:34:43,279
cultivate something very different. Now people forget this. It's kind

3430
04:34:43,319 --> 04:34:46,720
of been lost to history, kind of like the Four

3431
04:34:46,840 --> 04:34:54,360
Powers packed in part because I think it it conflicts

3432
04:34:54,439 --> 04:34:59,119
with the sort of simple minded narrative of what fascism

3433
04:34:59,240 --> 04:35:06,840
represented Mussolini had I can't read or pronounce Italian, It's

3434
04:35:06,840 --> 04:35:19,520
not even gonna try. Mussolini convened this uh office within

3435
04:35:19,599 --> 04:35:25,360
the party and within the government. It translated to the

3436
04:35:25,520 --> 04:35:30,639
Action Committee for the Universality of Rome. That's kind of

3437
04:35:30,680 --> 04:35:37,240
a bastardized translation like that. Basically like like the colloquially

3438
04:35:37,439 --> 04:35:40,240
it translates to, you know, like office for like the

3439
04:35:40,319 --> 04:35:44,919
promotion of the Roman culture or you know, like or

3440
04:35:45,000 --> 04:35:51,639
the Roman political education. It was basically like it's basically

3441
04:35:51,799 --> 04:35:57,479
common form became later okay for the Soviet Union, and

3442
04:35:58,080 --> 04:36:02,599
its purpose was to i identified fascist tendencies and friendly

3443
04:36:02,720 --> 04:36:11,639
states as well as movements behind enemy lines that could

3444
04:36:11,680 --> 04:36:17,880
be cultivated and brought into you know, second internationalist political tendency.

3445
04:36:18,400 --> 04:36:22,360
This has culminated in the nineteen thirty four Montru Fascist

3446
04:36:22,479 --> 04:36:27,479
Conference in Switzerland, also known not incorrectly and not as

3447
04:36:27,520 --> 04:36:32,240
colloquially as the Fascist International, the first Fascist International Congress.

3448
04:36:33,919 --> 04:36:37,360
It was held in December nineteen thirty four. In the

3449
04:36:37,439 --> 04:36:48,720
sixteenth and seventeenth and there was a There was representatives

3450
04:36:48,759 --> 04:36:54,599
of what had been identified by the Action Committee for

3451
04:36:54,599 --> 04:37:00,479
the Universality of Rome as a bona fide fascist movements

3452
04:37:00,840 --> 04:37:04,439
in something like over thirty countries, but such that it was.

3453
04:37:06,200 --> 04:37:11,119
The delegates came from thirteen different states, including ion Mota

3454
04:37:11,560 --> 04:37:15,880
from Romania, you know, the Iron Guard Quizzling was there,

3455
04:37:18,560 --> 04:37:25,360
the Greek National Socialists and a delegation one of the

3456
04:37:25,479 --> 04:37:36,680
Falangists UH deputies came, but the Falangists UH like command Element,

3457
04:37:37,240 --> 04:37:39,959
refused to endorse it because they claimed the Falange are

3458
04:37:40,000 --> 04:37:47,479
not fascists. The Irish Blue Shirts sent a delegation the

3459
04:37:47,599 --> 04:37:53,919
movement Front Ciste, which was not affiliated with Charles and

3460
04:37:54,000 --> 04:38:03,000
Morass's movement. They identified explicitly as fish. And what became

3461
04:38:03,080 --> 04:38:06,880
of them, I think a lot of them ended up

3462
04:38:07,319 --> 04:38:14,000
being folded into various militias because they kind of disappear

3463
04:38:15,520 --> 04:38:18,240
from the historical record by nineteen thirty seven thirty eight.

3464
04:38:18,439 --> 04:38:21,200
So that's part of the problem is I can't I

3465
04:38:21,279 --> 04:38:23,880
can't even read like passable French, like I mean, I

3466
04:38:23,959 --> 04:38:33,119
can read passable German. But there was a Baltic contingent Salazar,

3467
04:38:34,040 --> 04:38:39,159
some representative of Salazar's movement, you know, you get the idea,

3468
04:38:39,319 --> 04:38:41,720
you know, there was a some of the some of

3469
04:38:41,759 --> 04:38:52,319
the Austrian national Catholic types. Belgium had sent a contingent,

3470
04:38:52,560 --> 04:38:54,639
So did the Danes, the Netherlands. You know, you get

3471
04:38:54,680 --> 04:38:59,119
the idea and there's an indigenous like Swiss element. Obviously,

3472
04:38:59,240 --> 04:39:09,040
notably absent was any delegation the Third Reich. There weren't

3473
04:39:09,040 --> 04:39:11,479
any of the Austrian National Socialist present. But at that

3474
04:39:11,599 --> 04:39:14,520
time there was a delicate minuet going on between them

3475
04:39:14,560 --> 04:39:19,880
and Mussolini, especially because they were waging an insurgency campaigning

3476
04:39:19,919 --> 04:39:22,279
as Dolphus and they actually ended up murdering him. I mean,

3477
04:39:22,319 --> 04:39:27,439
which is there would which to say the least caused

3478
04:39:27,479 --> 04:39:33,880
some real consternation between old Duce and the fear. But

3479
04:39:34,119 --> 04:39:40,639
that uh and Mussolini there weren't that. There was obviously

3480
04:39:40,799 --> 04:39:45,840
like Italians, elements of the Italian government Fascist government were

3481
04:39:45,919 --> 04:39:49,520
facilitating organizing it, but there weren't any like there weren't

3482
04:39:49,560 --> 04:39:53,159
any like ideological commissars there from like the Fascist Party,

3483
04:39:54,119 --> 04:39:56,880
because mostly he wanted to he didn't want he said,

3484
04:39:56,919 --> 04:40:03,159
he wanted to get like an accurate rendering without you know,

3485
04:40:03,240 --> 04:40:08,720
people trying to jockey for like favoritism, money, geostrategic benefit

3486
04:40:09,000 --> 04:40:14,720
you know, from from the party. It was basically put

3487
04:40:14,759 --> 04:40:16,720
these put these men in a room and like see

3488
04:40:16,759 --> 04:40:19,040
what they do and see what their priorities are, and

3489
04:40:19,799 --> 04:40:23,720
you know, see if we can properly call them constituent

3490
04:40:23,840 --> 04:40:30,360
representative of constituent elements of an international tendency. Mosley did

3491
04:40:30,479 --> 04:40:34,599
not attend, and he did that for very specific reasons

3492
04:40:35,479 --> 04:40:39,880
because by this point, as I just mentioned, I mean,

3493
04:40:39,919 --> 04:40:42,799
this was this was late nineteen thirty four. Not only

3494
04:40:42,959 --> 04:40:48,439
was Hitler reichs Consler, but the Reichsteig Fire Decree had

3495
04:40:48,479 --> 04:40:53,400
been passed. There was a state of emergency. The National

3496
04:40:53,520 --> 04:40:58,759
Socialists were also like busy passing laws like disenfranchising Jews politically,

3497
04:40:59,520 --> 04:41:04,439
so all over the British press, most these opts are saying,

3498
04:41:04,759 --> 04:41:08,799
mostly is a Nazi. Mosley is a an agent of

3499
04:41:08,919 --> 04:41:12,000
the Kingdom of Italy. You know, Mosley is this anti

3500
04:41:12,159 --> 04:41:17,520
Semite who has been insinuated into our mist because owing

3501
04:41:17,599 --> 04:41:21,360
to failing political fortunes, he looked abroad and he's basically

3502
04:41:21,479 --> 04:41:25,680
like a paid asset, you know. And this man, this

3503
04:41:25,840 --> 04:41:29,000
man should be behind bars, you know. And if we

3504
04:41:29,000 --> 04:41:32,759
can't put him behind bars, you know, we we we

3505
04:41:32,959 --> 04:41:36,159
we we need to shame him and and you know,

3506
04:41:36,319 --> 04:41:40,560
expose him as is this is this genocidal, biological racialist

3507
04:41:41,279 --> 04:41:45,680
or whatever but first and four. First and four hist

3508
04:41:45,720 --> 04:41:51,840
concern was to deprive the enemy in the domestic press,

3509
04:41:52,439 --> 04:41:57,040
and these this element that became the focus later deprived

3510
04:41:57,119 --> 04:42:00,200
them of the ammunition to claim that Mosey with some

3511
04:42:00,319 --> 04:42:06,439
kind of foreign agent or foreign asset, you know, and

3512
04:42:06,639 --> 04:42:12,439
that was that was wise. But you know, I emphasized

3513
04:42:12,520 --> 04:42:16,200
that because, I mean for a few reasons, not just

3514
04:42:16,279 --> 04:42:20,639
because it's essential to understanding kind of the various iterations

3515
04:42:20,720 --> 04:42:26,279
of the revolutionary right in the Inner War years, but

3516
04:42:27,959 --> 04:42:31,799
you know, the the fascists, like the capital f fascists,

3517
04:42:31,919 --> 04:42:38,479
whether you're talking about whether you're talking about Mostly, whether

3518
04:42:38,479 --> 04:42:42,439
you're talking about Mussolini, whether you're talking about Ion Mota,

3519
04:42:42,959 --> 04:42:47,919
and uh, some of these Iron Guard partisans, these guys

3520
04:42:47,959 --> 04:42:56,080
are basically adjusting for cultural discrete cultural tendencies and animating elements.

3521
04:42:57,400 --> 04:43:01,240
These guys were basically the ideological project of George Sorell.

3522
04:43:02,119 --> 04:43:05,639
You know, they they viewed themselves as arguably you know,

3523
04:43:06,880 --> 04:43:09,200
they believed that they believed in a total kind of

3524
04:43:09,439 --> 04:43:14,279
regeneration of the race and the national community and a

3525
04:43:14,400 --> 04:43:19,240
new conceptualization of of of man in the twentieth century.

3526
04:43:19,799 --> 04:43:21,759
But at the end of the day, you know, they

3527
04:43:22,000 --> 04:43:26,080
they came. They were emergent from you know, not just

3528
04:43:26,159 --> 04:43:31,159
the spiritual crisis of the Western world, but the radicalism

3529
04:43:31,240 --> 04:43:34,439
of the labor movement. You know, when something had to change.

3530
04:43:35,959 --> 04:43:40,479
What was imperative was not to allow, not not to

3531
04:43:40,520 --> 04:43:43,799
allow the communists and in their estimation, you know, the Jews,

3532
04:43:44,599 --> 04:43:51,040
to subvert this historical momentum, you know, to destroy the

3533
04:43:51,200 --> 04:43:54,040
national community or the racial community or like a rip

3534
04:43:54,479 --> 04:44:01,639
man out of historical existence. But that's very different than

3535
04:44:01,639 --> 04:44:05,279
the way the National Socialists approached things, you know, like

3536
04:44:05,360 --> 04:44:10,639
like Hitler wasn't a fascist, you know. And I'm not

3537
04:44:10,799 --> 04:44:13,959
being I'm not being obtuse and saying, oh, because he

3538
04:44:14,080 --> 04:44:16,360
was a National Socialist. I mean that goes without saying.

3539
04:44:16,520 --> 04:44:23,799
But Hitler was something very different, as were the men

3540
04:44:23,880 --> 04:44:28,639
in his inner circle, as were the control group of

3541
04:44:28,759 --> 04:44:33,200
the of the NSDAP, who were somewhere to Hitler had

3542
04:44:33,279 --> 04:44:37,439
something of a contentious relationship with despite the fur of

3543
04:44:37,520 --> 04:44:41,360
Prinsip and everything else. But even but even even the

3544
04:44:41,439 --> 04:44:43,759
National Socialists who found themselves kind of at odds with

3545
04:44:43,919 --> 04:44:49,200
Hitler doc trinally, they represented something very different, you know,

3546
04:44:49,360 --> 04:44:58,759
And and that's important. And I think that because you know,

3547
04:45:00,919 --> 04:45:08,919
Shorthand for Marcis Lennon is shorthand for all their enemies

3548
04:45:09,119 --> 04:45:17,000
basically is fascist. And that's something I think because I

3549
04:45:17,479 --> 04:45:21,000
think because people in America generally are kind of intellectually

3550
04:45:21,040 --> 04:45:27,080
impoverished in matters of politics, the kind of simpleton like

3551
04:45:27,240 --> 04:45:32,319
liberal laughs sort of like appropriated that vocabulary, you know,

3552
04:45:32,840 --> 04:45:38,439
and there's an unfortunate tendency of people to kind of

3553
04:45:38,520 --> 04:45:44,479
accept these things as colloquialisms, which is a very deleterious

3554
04:45:44,479 --> 04:45:50,240
effect on the ability the conceptualize stuff accurately. But I

3555
04:45:50,279 --> 04:45:53,400
think that's a lot of this misunderstanding comes from it's like, oh, anybody,

3556
04:45:54,520 --> 04:45:57,439
anybody who the left uses their ops and anybody who's

3557
04:45:57,520 --> 04:46:01,000
European then you know, right wing but not a conservative,

3558
04:46:01,080 --> 04:46:04,520
Oh they're fascists. Like that's not that's not constructive, and

3559
04:46:04,599 --> 04:46:09,840
it's it's it's it's particularly inaccurate in the case of

3560
04:46:09,840 --> 04:46:15,319
the National Socialists. I highly recommend Durance Nolty's Three Faces

3561
04:46:15,360 --> 04:46:20,240
of Fascism. That was his first major work translated into English,

3562
04:46:22,200 --> 04:46:28,720
and he backed away from some of the some of

3563
04:46:28,759 --> 04:46:32,799
the UH epistemological claims containing their in and some of

3564
04:46:32,880 --> 04:46:38,360
the conclusions. But I I I I don't find any

3565
04:46:38,680 --> 04:46:45,599
substantial flaw with its methodology or its conceptual paradigm. If

3566
04:46:45,599 --> 04:46:50,520
you want to understand what I'm talking about here, that's

3567
04:46:50,560 --> 04:46:55,959
a very good starting point. But let me check for

3568
04:46:55,959 --> 04:46:59,439
my mind to see how long of them going. Okay, Yeah,

3569
04:46:59,439 --> 04:47:02,880
were definitely to like wrap it up in a a

3570
04:47:03,000 --> 04:47:06,040
in another episode before you're telling me that's okay, I

3571
04:47:06,119 --> 04:47:08,520
just didn't. I don't want to monopolate that. I don't

3572
04:47:08,520 --> 04:47:12,240
want to monopolize your time or be too long winded

3573
04:47:12,319 --> 04:47:14,759
on this topic if it was making people bored or

3574
04:47:14,799 --> 04:47:15,560
they wanted to move on.

3575
04:47:15,799 --> 04:47:19,759
Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't think anyone. I don't think anyone

3576
04:47:19,880 --> 04:47:20,840
is bored and wants to move on.

3577
04:47:21,080 --> 04:47:23,159
Speaker 2: So yeah, no, No, I get I probably get so

3578
04:47:23,400 --> 04:47:25,759
conscious in ways that I shouldn't. I think it's a

3579
04:47:25,799 --> 04:47:27,840
whole over from when I was young and I used

3580
04:47:27,840 --> 04:47:33,439
to worry a lot about that kind of stuff. No feedback,

3581
04:47:33,639 --> 04:47:35,400
I mean, obviously you can more direct feedback on this

3582
04:47:35,520 --> 04:47:39,560
than I because it's your show. But it's been uniformly positive.

3583
04:47:39,639 --> 04:47:42,799
But I I still worry about it sometimes, man, and

3584
04:47:42,959 --> 04:47:49,639
especially when somebody's kind of to, you know, gift me

3585
04:47:49,720 --> 04:47:53,639
with a platform and discuss stuff with me. But I'm

3586
04:47:54,840 --> 04:48:02,759
the Uh. One of the things it was right around

3587
04:48:07,000 --> 04:48:08,880
It was March nineteen thirty two, so I mean right

3588
04:48:08,959 --> 04:48:11,400
around a lot of these critical events. But before the

3589
04:48:12,560 --> 04:48:18,159
before the Fascist International Tolerance when mostly been back from

3590
04:48:18,240 --> 04:48:21,040
Italy for a couple of months, the b UF was,

3591
04:48:21,279 --> 04:48:25,840
you know, formally kind of being launched in uh, politically

3592
04:48:25,880 --> 04:48:30,119
in the Political Quarterly, which was kind of like Foreign

3593
04:48:30,119 --> 04:48:33,560
Affairs magazine is here, but like more widely circulated, like

3594
04:48:33,680 --> 04:48:36,040
basically everybody read it. It was politically engaged, you know,

3595
04:48:36,119 --> 04:48:41,040
like regardless of their ideological Struke Mosey kind of laid

3596
04:48:41,080 --> 04:48:47,400
out the case for fascism, but he did so from

3597
04:48:47,639 --> 04:48:52,080
like a very in a very Hegelian way. He said, look,

3598
04:48:53,159 --> 04:48:55,520
we are in the UK specifically, is in the midst

3599
04:48:55,560 --> 04:49:00,400
of a crisis. You know. He's like, materially like obviously

3600
04:49:00,479 --> 04:49:03,479
the Germans were hit harder than us, but politically our

3601
04:49:03,599 --> 04:49:08,759
system wasn't is in greater crisis than any other, you know.

3602
04:49:08,880 --> 04:49:13,319
And he said this crisis has produced new parties, new

3603
04:49:13,479 --> 04:49:16,639
types of men, in new forces. And he said that

3604
04:49:16,720 --> 04:49:20,319
the only way this crisis can be met, let alone mitigated,

3605
04:49:21,520 --> 04:49:26,040
is by men who quote turn their backs on the

3606
04:49:26,200 --> 04:49:29,759
old world and on the old political system. He said

3607
04:49:29,759 --> 04:49:34,000
that communism it won't just supersede social democrats and labor rights,

3608
04:49:34,000 --> 04:49:37,200
it will smash them, you know. He said, Conservatives think

3609
04:49:37,240 --> 04:49:39,840
that they can bring these people, that they can you know,

3610
04:49:39,919 --> 04:49:41,959
kind of gel these people or cut them off with

3611
04:49:42,000 --> 04:49:44,599
the knees by bringing them into the coalition. He's like,

3612
04:49:44,680 --> 04:49:48,279
they that's not possible, you know, because he's like they're

3613
04:49:48,360 --> 04:49:52,159
operating on the assumptions that were just enumerated, you know,

3614
04:49:52,479 --> 04:49:56,479
like they are that vanguard of new men. And he

3615
04:49:56,560 --> 04:50:01,240
said only the corporate state can defeat the Bolsheviks, because

3616
04:50:01,279 --> 04:50:04,080
he says, not only does the corporate state present a

3617
04:50:04,240 --> 04:50:08,880
model for you know, economic planning that on the one

3618
04:50:08,959 --> 04:50:14,159
hand doesn't leave you know, macroeconomic decision making to chance,

3619
04:50:15,000 --> 04:50:17,279
but it also doesn't strangle the golden goose, and it

3620
04:50:17,520 --> 04:50:21,639
like allows private capital, you know, to to reap the

3621
04:50:21,759 --> 04:50:27,000
benefit of its bargain and incentivizes you know, investment in

3622
04:50:27,119 --> 04:50:31,040
the nation. But he said also like out of this structure,

3623
04:50:32,720 --> 04:50:36,040
you know, will comes like a defense mechanism of like

3624
04:50:36,200 --> 04:50:40,720
men who are like mobilized in service to the nation already,

3625
04:50:41,759 --> 04:50:48,040
you know, and who have a stake in the corporatest

3626
04:50:48,159 --> 04:50:54,560
enterprise and contain they're in is you know, a very

3627
04:50:54,759 --> 04:51:00,360
kind of brass tax political education that draws very rapily

3628
04:51:00,439 --> 04:51:06,040
the distinction between you know, friend and enemy with respect

3629
04:51:06,080 --> 04:51:09,759
to the internal situation. You know. So he said that

3630
04:51:09,880 --> 04:51:16,759
this is imperative, you know, to basically not not just

3631
04:51:16,840 --> 04:51:23,599
to guard the empire and guard the racial community and

3632
04:51:23,799 --> 04:51:31,840
to protect Britain's political system from you know, destruction and

3633
04:51:31,919 --> 04:51:35,680
subversion from within, but he said it's also necessary to

3634
04:51:35,799 --> 04:51:45,520
create and generate basically basically an apparatus that they can

3635
04:51:45,680 --> 04:51:51,720
inculcate you know, men with the necessary political doctrine. You know,

3636
04:51:52,240 --> 04:51:56,840
He's like, basically like, by creating the structure which will

3637
04:51:56,880 --> 04:52:00,560
then force a direct confrontation with the communists, it will

3638
04:52:00,560 --> 04:52:06,040
become very very clear like who is the friends are

3639
04:52:06,119 --> 04:52:09,439
of the working man and who is not, And those

3640
04:52:09,479 --> 04:52:11,720
that would seek to subvert it will quickly be exposed

3641
04:52:11,759 --> 04:52:16,680
as people who you know want to destroy any patriotic

3642
04:52:16,759 --> 04:52:21,360
impulse which they view as vestigil and reactionary, you know,

3643
04:52:21,560 --> 04:52:27,840
in englishmen specifically. So you know, he was making his

3644
04:52:28,000 --> 04:52:38,279
case not just for political economy of the Keynesian stripe,

3645
04:52:38,439 --> 04:52:43,759
but like with teeth, but he was also suggesting that

3646
04:52:46,279 --> 04:52:49,240
this is the only structure that can facilitate you know,

3647
04:52:49,400 --> 04:52:53,840
national salvation and like the basic defense of life in capital.

3648
04:52:55,200 --> 04:53:01,799
And he wasn't wrong about the condition is emergent, you know.

3649
04:53:03,639 --> 04:53:06,279
And I don't think people realize that in this country.

3650
04:53:06,360 --> 04:53:08,000
I think they have they have some idea that the

3651
04:53:08,159 --> 04:53:10,799
UK is kind of like America Light or something, or

3652
04:53:11,200 --> 04:53:14,680
just like a smaller version. They don't like, they don't

3653
04:53:14,720 --> 04:53:21,400
understand the degree to which revolutionary communism had had momentum there.

3654
04:53:21,560 --> 04:53:23,720
You know, it's not an accent and you know it's

3655
04:53:23,759 --> 04:53:27,360
not an accent that Cambridge five were these like society

3656
04:53:27,439 --> 04:53:30,880
type guys, you know, like it wasn't it wasn't just

3657
04:53:30,959 --> 04:53:35,159
like shop stewards and like angry, uh you know, kind

3658
04:53:35,200 --> 04:53:40,439
of middle class types who who and in the British

3659
04:53:40,479 --> 04:53:43,639
sense that means something very different than here, you know,

3660
04:53:43,759 --> 04:53:45,919
who who realized that, you know, they're kind of saddled

3661
04:53:45,919 --> 04:53:50,080
with diminishing returns and in the industrial system kind of

3662
04:53:50,080 --> 04:53:54,279
found themselves in the role of like underpaid overseer. You know.

3663
04:53:54,479 --> 04:53:58,439
The these these were guys like Kim Philby and his friends.

3664
04:53:58,880 --> 04:54:01,840
These guys were like the best and the brightest, you know,

3665
04:54:01,919 --> 04:54:07,360
I mean, and that they weren't outliers and UH, the

3666
04:54:08,880 --> 04:54:13,200
in the in the British system, guys like that were

3667
04:54:13,279 --> 04:54:18,439
groomed for certain roles within the within the empire. You know.

3668
04:54:18,599 --> 04:54:21,319
You you can't just chalk it up like, oh, that's

3669
04:54:21,360 --> 04:54:24,599
just limousine liberalism, or that's oh, that's just rich people

3670
04:54:24,720 --> 04:54:28,680
being you know, commedies. It's it's you can't explain it

3671
04:54:28,759 --> 04:54:37,880
away like that. It's something very different the UH. But

3672
04:54:38,040 --> 04:54:44,720
it was that October nineteen thirty two, right around the

3673
04:54:44,759 --> 04:54:50,799
time that mostly turned thirty six years of age, that uh,

3674
04:54:51,759 --> 04:54:55,560
the British Union of Fascists was officially formed with the

3675
04:54:56,319 --> 04:55:01,880
thirty two founding members who kind of became the alt comfort.

3676
04:55:06,040 --> 04:55:14,439
One of the most important UH figures personages rather in

3677
04:55:14,560 --> 04:55:22,319
the party was Raven Thompson. And I probably enough time

3678
04:55:22,360 --> 04:55:28,880
to fully flesh that out in this hour, but but yeah,

3679
04:55:29,000 --> 04:55:42,080
the the degree which too, the kind of uh, the

3680
04:55:42,200 --> 04:55:45,840
kind of internal mythology the b u F you know,

3681
04:55:45,959 --> 04:55:48,840
like what what Mosey and the members and and and

3682
04:55:49,080 --> 04:55:55,720
men like Raven Thompson who was the propaganda officer. These

3683
04:55:55,759 --> 04:56:00,319
guys are very it's very much Uhanism through the ends

3684
04:56:00,360 --> 04:56:04,400
of Bernard Shaw. And make no mistake like Shaw was

3685
04:56:04,479 --> 04:56:12,840
very much and Echian and I'm kind of fascinated by

3686
04:56:15,520 --> 04:56:18,799
he was writing about the tragedy of the Commons and

3687
04:56:18,919 --> 04:56:25,400
I can't remember the name of the essay, and he famously, uh,

3688
04:56:26,919 --> 04:56:32,319
he famously said that Jack the Ripper was uh was

3689
04:56:32,400 --> 04:56:37,720
a great eugenicist and he was like performing an invaluable

3690
04:56:37,840 --> 04:56:43,279
service and he was serious about that. He was serious

3691
04:56:43,319 --> 04:56:45,200
about that kind of stuff, Like he wasn't just being

3692
04:56:45,880 --> 04:56:48,680
he wasn't just being like an eccentric limey who likes

3693
04:56:48,720 --> 04:56:51,240
to make taste as jokes about like cutting up hookers

3694
04:56:51,319 --> 04:56:53,919
or something. I mean, yeah, there was some element of

3695
04:56:53,959 --> 04:57:03,360
that too, But you know, this in consolation of ideological

3696
04:57:03,520 --> 04:57:12,759
and uh and kind of conceptual tendencies from like George

3697
04:57:13,080 --> 04:57:22,200
George Bernard Shaw to uh to you know, the Fabians

3698
04:57:22,319 --> 04:57:28,720
that he associated with and in Keenes and Mussolini, and

3699
04:57:28,840 --> 04:57:34,560
the kind of direct influence that early on he uh

3700
04:57:36,200 --> 04:57:41,680
he wielded uh intentionally or not or Moseley. This was

3701
04:57:41,759 --> 04:57:48,680
a very unusual constellation of aspects, but it was very genuine.

3702
04:57:48,840 --> 04:57:51,560
It wasn't just this kind of grab bag of rationalizations

3703
04:57:52,639 --> 04:57:57,159
or something, you know, And it was a very it

3704
04:57:57,240 --> 04:58:00,959
was a very British and specifically English fashion, like there's

3705
04:58:01,000 --> 04:58:04,040
a heavy Scottish contingent in the b u F and

3706
04:58:04,279 --> 04:58:11,040
Ulster guys like interestingly Billy Fullerton. The Billy Boys UH

3707
04:58:12,000 --> 04:58:20,959
of sectarian lore H were founded by Billy Fullerton and

3708
04:58:21,119 --> 04:58:26,240
he was a b UF. He was either a day

3709
04:58:26,319 --> 04:58:31,319
one UH like b u F Street flighter, which seems

3710
04:58:31,400 --> 04:58:35,319
peculiar on its face in some ways if because Moldley

3711
04:58:35,520 --> 04:58:37,759
was you know, quite sympathetic to the Irish. But it

3712
04:58:39,479 --> 04:58:44,319
but there's something very there's something very English and in

3713
04:58:44,759 --> 04:58:52,919
some way Scottish as well, at least in some aspects

3714
04:58:53,479 --> 04:58:57,959
of the party that you know, it can't just be

3715
04:58:58,080 --> 04:59:01,720
understood as UH as a kind of like a racialist

3716
04:59:01,840 --> 04:59:05,479
or right wing tendency that oh wrote under a fascist

3717
04:59:05,560 --> 04:59:11,759
banner owing to some derivative impulse or something like that.

3718
04:59:12,000 --> 04:59:16,759
It was very much its own thing. But we're coming

3719
04:59:16,840 --> 04:59:22,840
up on an hour, so yeah, let's UH. I will

3720
04:59:22,880 --> 04:59:26,319
finish up on Moseley and and the the Epoch in

3721
04:59:26,520 --> 04:59:29,400
question next time, and I'll talk about the I'll talk

3722
04:59:29,439 --> 04:59:34,680
about the British Free Corps, which of course is UH

3723
04:59:36,200 --> 04:59:41,400
the Britishers who joined the SS, some of whom were

3724
04:59:41,919 --> 04:59:44,680
British Union of Fascist veterans, but I think that would

3725
04:59:44,680 --> 04:59:45,479
be very good man.

3726
04:59:46,479 --> 04:59:47,680
Speaker 1: Alrighty two plugs.

3727
04:59:48,720 --> 04:59:54,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm very excited to announce that the movie, the

3728
04:59:54,520 --> 04:59:58,000
documentary that my dear friend Reake and I made, it's

3729
04:59:58,080 --> 05:00:00,639
finally finished. So I'm gonna spend this like the editing

3730
05:00:00,759 --> 05:00:03,919
is finished and stuff. I plan to spend this weekend

3731
05:00:04,000 --> 05:00:06,439
figuring out the best way to upload it so that

3732
05:00:06,680 --> 05:00:11,360
people can see it. I haven't decided where I'm gonna Ideally,

3733
05:00:11,400 --> 05:00:13,200
I'm want to upload it the substack. I don't know

3734
05:00:13,240 --> 05:00:15,000
if it's possible yet. I might have to upload it

3735
05:00:15,040 --> 05:00:20,159
the gum road. But believe me, everybody will shout it

3736
05:00:20,200 --> 05:00:22,479
out on all my social media. It won't be hard

3737
05:00:22,520 --> 05:00:30,319
to find. My substack is a real Thomas seven seven

3738
05:00:30,439 --> 05:00:35,720
seven dot substack dot com. I'm also on Instagram, I'm

3739
05:00:35,759 --> 05:00:41,680
on x I'm like many many places. My social media

3740
05:00:41,880 --> 05:00:46,360
alts is at number seven H O M A S

3741
05:00:46,560 --> 05:00:51,439
seven seven seven dot com. That's what I've got all.

3742
05:00:51,400 --> 05:00:55,279
Speaker 1: Right until part six, Thank you, Tom's. I want to

3743
05:00:55,319 --> 05:00:58,599
welcome everyone back to the Peaking Yana Show. Thomas is

3744
05:00:58,639 --> 05:01:00,880
here and I think we're going to close out to

3745
05:01:00,959 --> 05:01:03,560
talk about Sir Oswald Mosley aren't we.

3746
05:01:04,400 --> 05:01:10,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, we can continue for one more episode to discuss

3747
05:01:10,720 --> 05:01:13,840
the British Free Corps if you want. I'm going I'll

3748
05:01:13,880 --> 05:01:16,360
discuss some of it today, but it's up to you

3749
05:01:16,759 --> 05:01:20,240
in the subs. Yeah, we'll play it by your that's fine.

3750
05:01:21,520 --> 05:01:27,119
The that's imperative to understand is a lot of what

3751
05:01:27,279 --> 05:01:31,080
happened to Oswald Mosley, you know. And he was interned

3752
05:01:32,119 --> 05:01:39,479
under Defense Regulation eighteen B, which allowed for the internment

3753
05:01:40,840 --> 05:01:49,200
of anybody who was actively sympathizing with enemy states during wartime.

3754
05:01:49,880 --> 05:01:53,840
This was so loosely defined it could entail pretty much anything,

3755
05:01:54,560 --> 05:02:01,720
including mere statements. And as Lady Diana Mosley pointed out,

3756
05:02:03,799 --> 05:02:09,799
you know, Mosley scrupulously obeyed the law, and he there

3757
05:02:09,880 --> 05:02:13,639
was precedent for this in terms of his personal as

3758
05:02:13,680 --> 05:02:16,080
well as political conduct. When the police ordered him to

3759
05:02:16,159 --> 05:02:20,040
do something, he refused to provide information on his comrades

3760
05:02:20,319 --> 05:02:22,880
or members the BUF or anything like that. But if

3761
05:02:22,919 --> 05:02:25,759
they ordered him to disperse, he did it, you know.

3762
05:02:25,919 --> 05:02:30,560
And if he was threatened with a charge of a pray,

3763
05:02:31,479 --> 05:02:36,400
he'd stand his people down, you know. And there was

3764
05:02:36,439 --> 05:02:46,279
a substantial in relative terms, number of BUF members you know,

3765
05:02:46,319 --> 05:02:48,400
who were in the British army or with the police,

3766
05:02:48,439 --> 05:02:52,479
and he told them don't don't disobey your superiors, don't

3767
05:02:52,560 --> 05:02:55,400
undermine the chain of command, don't ever do that. You know,

3768
05:02:55,479 --> 05:03:01,000
He's like, try and try and encourage your felt you know,

3769
05:03:01,119 --> 05:03:09,360
white Christian and Scottish and Welsh and sympathetic Irish men

3770
05:03:09,439 --> 05:03:13,599
and women to see our point of view. But this

3771
05:03:13,759 --> 05:03:16,360
idea that he was some dangerous revolutionary or that he

3772
05:03:16,520 --> 05:03:20,000
was trying to subvert the crown by way of espionage,

3773
05:03:20,159 --> 05:03:26,560
that's laughable. Now. There was a weird precedent though, as

3774
05:03:26,680 --> 05:03:30,080
the kind of what gave rise this paranoia. Like, don't

3775
05:03:30,080 --> 05:03:35,400
get me wrong, the Churchill government and particularly Cretans like

3776
05:03:35,599 --> 05:03:40,759
Van Sattart, they wanted to harm mostly for personal reasons,

3777
05:03:40,799 --> 05:03:44,880
as most political ones. But there was odd intrigues that

3778
05:03:47,759 --> 05:03:51,319
you know, led to Chamberlain adopting some very draconian policies,

3779
05:03:51,400 --> 05:03:56,439
including the Treason Act, which made it very very easy

3780
05:03:57,200 --> 05:04:02,400
to convict people of treason and under the common law

3781
05:04:03,400 --> 05:04:10,639
as well as under the previous Act defining Treason in

3782
05:04:10,720 --> 05:04:14,159
the United Kingdom, which dated to the sixteen nineties. Not coincidentally,

3783
05:04:16,159 --> 05:04:26,439
there had to be two witnesses accusing the defendant of

3784
05:04:26,520 --> 05:04:30,319
the acts alleged in the indictment, and somebody could only

3785
05:04:30,360 --> 05:04:35,560
be charged with treason by indictment, and the discreete and

3786
05:04:35,639 --> 05:04:39,919
specific acts had to be witnessed the trees in act.

3787
05:04:40,000 --> 05:04:42,520
Get did it away with all of this? Okay, you

3788
05:04:42,599 --> 05:04:46,000
could be convicted by the same standard of evidence as

3789
05:04:46,080 --> 05:04:50,400
any other felony. And it was a mandatory death penalty.

3790
05:04:50,759 --> 05:04:54,759
There's only one penalty, and it was death, which is

3791
05:04:54,840 --> 05:05:00,479
quite completely insane. Okay. But why this came about? Then,

3792
05:05:00,520 --> 05:05:03,759
this is important. I'm not I don't want to derail us.

3793
05:05:03,880 --> 05:05:08,400
But in the World War two series, we talked about

3794
05:05:08,439 --> 05:05:12,560
how the New Dealers, and specifically Roosevelt he quite literally

3795
05:05:12,639 --> 05:05:15,880
sent Joe Kennedy away to the UK. He did it

3796
05:05:15,959 --> 05:05:20,479
for a couple of reasons. The American establishment in the

3797
05:05:20,520 --> 05:05:23,279
Bridge didn't particularly like each other, that this was not

3798
05:05:23,400 --> 05:05:27,159
some like close cozy relationship at all. And Roosevelt didn't

3799
05:05:27,279 --> 05:05:29,560
Rose about didn't like church all, he had contempt for him.

3800
05:05:29,880 --> 05:05:31,840
Roosevelt didn't like Chamberlain. He thought he was an a

3801
05:05:31,919 --> 05:05:37,479
feat snob and a jerk. You know. The US government

3802
05:05:38,799 --> 05:05:44,319
didn't like the Crown, you know, so sending America first

3803
05:05:45,119 --> 05:05:49,639
Irish Joe Kennedy over there. They did two things. It

3804
05:05:50,279 --> 05:05:55,520
subtly antagonized the British and prevented some kind of sympathetic

3805
05:05:55,639 --> 05:05:58,400
ear being offered to them from the Department of State.

3806
05:05:58,959 --> 05:06:01,439
It got rid of Joe care Kennedy, who's a thorn

3807
05:06:01,520 --> 05:06:04,840
in the side of the New Dealers. But it also,

3808
05:06:07,840 --> 05:06:09,720
you know, one of the things that people like vance

3809
05:06:09,759 --> 05:06:14,880
it's hard and typical kind of conspiratorial British fashion. One

3810
05:06:14,880 --> 05:06:16,560
of the things they used the presidence of people like

3811
05:06:16,639 --> 05:06:19,360
Kennedy therefore, is they wanted to see like who he

3812
05:06:19,479 --> 05:06:22,040
was making contact with, Like they wanted to see who

3813
05:06:22,360 --> 05:06:27,200
in like a wider cultural milieu between the UK and

3814
05:06:27,240 --> 05:06:38,360
America was stoking exis sympathy. And this this, this led

3815
05:06:38,400 --> 05:06:43,400
to a very very strange case. Let me just call

3816
05:06:43,479 --> 05:06:44,959
my outline real quick. I want to see what I

3817
05:06:48,560 --> 05:06:51,479
for get me. It was the case of uh, it

3818
05:06:51,599 --> 05:06:55,799
was the Kent affair, Okay, And this is relevant to

3819
05:06:55,799 --> 05:06:57,720
some of the other things we talk about, Like Tyler

3820
05:06:57,799 --> 05:07:01,959
Gatewood Kent. He was a diplomat, like he'd been born

3821
05:07:02,000 --> 05:07:07,159
in Manchuria and his father was the consular, the US consul. Okay,

3822
05:07:09,720 --> 05:07:13,360
he developed a fluency in Russian because he was something

3823
05:07:13,400 --> 05:07:16,599
of a polymath, okay, and he literally just like studied Russian,

3824
05:07:17,400 --> 05:07:21,040
you know. He went to the University of Madrid for

3825
05:07:21,119 --> 05:07:23,680
a time through his father's connections, you know. Then he

3826
05:07:23,799 --> 05:07:28,520
joined the State Department. He was the first American ambassador

3827
05:07:28,560 --> 05:07:34,560
to the Soviet Union under William Bullet. But then weird

3828
05:07:34,639 --> 05:07:43,240
stuff started happening. On the eve of the war in

3829
05:07:43,400 --> 05:07:47,759
nineteen thirty nine, some of his colleagues began to suspect

3830
05:07:47,799 --> 05:07:52,360
that he was a Soviet sympathizer, and they went as

3831
05:07:52,400 --> 05:07:56,159
far as suspecting that he was spying for the Soviet

3832
05:07:56,319 --> 05:08:02,840
Union and he had knowledge of cipher pads and things,

3833
05:08:04,080 --> 05:08:07,599
you know, Like a lot of State Department officials, especially

3834
05:08:07,720 --> 05:08:10,400
in those days, he was basically an intelligence man. They

3835
05:08:10,439 --> 05:08:16,959
were under like light diplomatic cover. But basically what some

3836
05:08:17,119 --> 05:08:22,799
of his colleagues were sympathetic to say the least to

3837
05:08:22,919 --> 05:08:26,639
the Roosevelt New Deal program we're saying, was look, just

3838
05:08:26,720 --> 05:08:30,599
so you know, he's a Soviet agent. And Oss later

3839
05:08:30,720 --> 05:08:35,959
insisted on the same thing. The British were convinced he

3840
05:08:36,080 --> 05:08:38,080
was a fascist. And this is where this gets interesting,

3841
05:08:38,279 --> 05:08:42,119
because he got removed from his posting in the Soviet Union.

3842
05:08:42,319 --> 05:08:49,040
But obviously Roosevelt was cultivating deep independence with the Soviets

3843
05:08:49,720 --> 05:08:53,560
even amiss the non aggression packed. So when Kent arrived

3844
05:08:53,599 --> 05:08:56,479
in London, where he got sent, you know, in part

3845
05:08:56,799 --> 05:08:59,119
because so his superiors could keep an eye on him

3846
05:09:00,119 --> 05:09:02,240
when he got When he got there, he immediately made

3847
05:09:02,279 --> 05:09:06,959
contact with a guy named Ludwig Matthias. And Matthias was

3848
05:09:07,400 --> 05:09:11,919
almost certainly an advert agent, and he was under investigation

3849
05:09:12,119 --> 05:09:18,119
by Special branch Okay. Then Kent was seen hanging around, uh,

3850
05:09:19,319 --> 05:09:23,520
this kind of haunt for in South Kensington that Russians

3851
05:09:23,560 --> 05:09:29,040
were known to frequent, you know, both you know, Emmigray's

3852
05:09:29,119 --> 05:09:32,240
from the White Army, you know, who fought the Communists

3853
05:09:32,919 --> 05:09:36,959
and uh like died in the old Soviet types. And

3854
05:09:38,919 --> 05:09:42,520
he met this Russian woman kind of like uh, lesser

3855
05:09:42,639 --> 05:09:47,000
society type woman who'd been married to this uh, this

3856
05:09:47,240 --> 05:09:50,200
rich British merchant, and he started having an affair with her,

3857
05:09:51,200 --> 05:09:53,840
you know, and they started going back and forth between

3858
05:09:54,279 --> 05:10:03,599
the UK and the Soviet Union. Now through uh, through

3859
05:10:03,639 --> 05:10:06,560
a lady named Anna Volkov, who was another kind of

3860
05:10:06,599 --> 05:10:11,720
society person, he met Archibald Ramsey. Now Ramsey had been

3861
05:10:11,799 --> 05:10:17,040
an associate of Oswald Mosley and he founded what was

3862
05:10:17,080 --> 05:10:22,200
called the Right Club. He defected from the Conservative Party

3863
05:10:22,240 --> 05:10:25,159
and then from the Scottish Unions that found the Right Club.

3864
05:10:25,479 --> 05:10:29,279
And the Right Club was basically like an anti Jewish pack, okay,

3865
05:10:30,319 --> 05:10:33,159
and it had his ability to kind of attract like

3866
05:10:33,400 --> 05:10:39,919
society people, you know. And this made this made Special

3867
05:10:39,959 --> 05:10:44,680
Branch really upset, and I mean Chamberlain really upset. And

3868
05:10:45,919 --> 05:10:52,560
when Churchill ascended to the Prime ministership, he basically resigned

3869
05:10:52,599 --> 05:10:55,599
to destroy it. And this is another thing that regulation

3870
05:10:55,759 --> 05:11:00,520
at and B was tailored the crush. But it's the

3871
05:11:00,520 --> 05:11:03,759
interesting aside. It beg's the question like what was Kent's deal?

3872
05:11:04,279 --> 05:11:14,200
And Kent he was ultimately brought up on charges for

3873
05:11:14,279 --> 05:11:20,639
his associations with people engaged with the Right Club, as

3874
05:11:20,680 --> 05:11:27,080
well as him acting as an intermediary between various pro

3875
05:11:27,319 --> 05:11:35,360
axis elements. And he probably knew Lord haha, William Joyce personally. Yeah,

3876
05:11:35,560 --> 05:11:41,720
he definitely delivered coded cipher messages to him, okay. And

3877
05:11:41,799 --> 05:11:43,720
we'll get into like who Joyce was in a minute,

3878
05:11:44,799 --> 05:11:50,560
but m I five. Essentially, they approached Joe Kennedy in

3879
05:11:50,680 --> 05:11:55,000
May nineteen forty and said, look, if you don't waive

3880
05:11:55,159 --> 05:11:58,479
Kent's diplomatic immunity. We're going to assume you're in cahoots

3881
05:11:58,479 --> 05:12:00,560
with him, and we're gonna charge you too. This was

3882
05:12:00,599 --> 05:12:05,639
like the implied threat. Okay, So two days later Kent's

3883
05:12:05,720 --> 05:12:12,959
home got rated by I five and they found almost

3884
05:12:13,040 --> 05:12:19,840
two thousand official documents as well as messages between Churchill

3885
05:12:20,799 --> 05:12:23,520
and Special Branch, which begged the question how the hell

3886
05:12:23,599 --> 05:12:30,119
did he get hold of that kind of data. But

3887
05:12:30,720 --> 05:12:33,319
they also found he made copies to the code room

3888
05:12:33,400 --> 05:12:40,119
at the US Embassy. Him and Anna Volkov were both

3889
05:12:40,240 --> 05:12:47,040
charged with violating the Official Secrets Act. And he's lucky

3890
05:12:47,200 --> 05:12:51,639
because he probably could have been executed despite being a

3891
05:12:51,680 --> 05:12:55,040
foreign national, had like the Treason ad come down and

3892
05:12:55,119 --> 05:12:57,479
been tested and well, obviously he couldn't have been tried

3893
05:12:57,520 --> 05:13:00,759
for treason. It would have set a precedent killing people

3894
05:13:00,880 --> 05:13:04,639
who were viewed as acts as agents and had been

3895
05:13:04,680 --> 05:13:10,439
insinuated into sensitive roles. He was tried at Old Bailey

3896
05:13:10,599 --> 05:13:13,959
in a secret trial. No witnesses were permitted. The only

3897
05:13:14,000 --> 05:13:17,119
ones permitted were from m I five is that they

3898
05:13:17,159 --> 05:13:20,840
could document like what exactly he had and what he knew.

3899
05:13:23,400 --> 05:13:26,759
M I five and m I six were there. But uh,

3900
05:13:29,360 --> 05:13:35,240
Ramsey Archibald Ramsey actually testified against him, which was grimy.

3901
05:13:35,639 --> 05:13:42,080
But Ramsey's supporters or apologists in the present day would

3902
05:13:42,119 --> 05:13:44,639
suggest that he was convinced that the man was a Communist,

3903
05:13:44,680 --> 05:13:46,599
which doesn't make a difference to me, because like, you

3904
05:13:46,639 --> 05:13:50,040
don't rant people out and lie on them. I don't

3905
05:13:50,080 --> 05:13:52,439
care what they are. You know, if there's some kind

3906
05:13:52,439 --> 05:13:55,240
of horrible person, I'm like a child molestor Okay, deal

3907
05:13:55,279 --> 05:13:58,159
with them extra judicially and give him some justice. You know,

3908
05:13:58,360 --> 05:14:01,599
you don't testify on people. Okay. So Ramsey kind of

3909
05:14:01,599 --> 05:14:04,680
showed his true colors as a coward. But that's that's

3910
05:14:04,680 --> 05:14:06,880
actually a credit to Mosley. Is the reason why he

3911
05:14:06,919 --> 05:14:12,159
didn't associate with people like the Right Club. But he

3912
05:14:12,319 --> 05:14:16,159
was sent in the seven years. He was eventually released

3913
05:14:18,560 --> 05:14:21,959
after as the war was coming to a close. Okay,

3914
05:14:23,479 --> 05:14:29,400
he immediately left the UK upon release was understandable. He

3915
05:14:29,479 --> 05:14:32,159
went down to Texas nearly fifties and he married this

3916
05:14:32,240 --> 05:14:36,439
like wealthy airis down there and he immediately joined this

3917
05:14:36,680 --> 05:14:42,319
organization that was probably an undercover like clan outfit, like

3918
05:14:42,439 --> 05:14:47,840
KKK outfit, and he started publishing this pro segregation like

3919
05:14:48,000 --> 05:14:53,200
a tabloid and he started railing against Kennedy, saying Kennedy

3920
05:14:53,279 --> 05:14:58,159
as a communist. Now, the FBI investigated him as being

3921
05:14:58,240 --> 05:15:01,240
a KGBS set, but they can ever show up enough

3922
05:15:01,560 --> 05:15:03,880
of a case to charge him formally. They just made

3923
05:15:03,919 --> 05:15:08,560
his like miserable and they couldn't conclusively figure out what

3924
05:15:08,680 --> 05:15:11,319
his angle was. I mean, to me, it's pretty clear

3925
05:15:11,439 --> 05:15:14,840
he was like a Francis Yackey type, you know. And

3926
05:15:15,040 --> 05:15:19,159
he started making Soviet contacts after the after the Non

3927
05:15:19,200 --> 05:15:22,080
Aggression Pact was signed, and then he saw the writing

3928
05:15:22,159 --> 05:15:24,599
on the wall and realized, I'm gonna do everything I

3929
05:15:24,720 --> 05:15:27,080
can to kind of swing the strategic balance and favor

3930
05:15:27,159 --> 05:15:30,520
the Soviets because they're definitely gonna win this war, and

3931
05:15:31,959 --> 05:15:34,479
I want to do everything I can to undermine the

3932
05:15:34,520 --> 05:15:38,599
Anglo American Zionist alliance. That's very clear to me, okay.

3933
05:15:40,240 --> 05:15:42,880
But it makes sense that the FBI and m I

3934
05:15:43,040 --> 05:15:49,040
five couldn't figure this out. Okay. But Kent really really

3935
05:15:49,159 --> 05:15:55,240
upset the whole incident, really really upset British intelligence, and

3936
05:15:55,319 --> 05:16:02,319
it's specifically upset the focus, okay. And as it became

3937
05:16:02,479 --> 05:16:07,560
clear that war was inevitable between UH the Axis in

3938
05:16:07,599 --> 05:16:14,000
the UK because UH Chamberlain had been totally compromised, in

3939
05:16:14,159 --> 05:16:18,319
part by his own you know, by checkmating himself with

3940
05:16:18,560 --> 05:16:23,479
the War Guarantee, to the to the Polish hunt, but

3941
05:16:23,639 --> 05:16:27,439
also because the focus and and and the War Party

3942
05:16:27,599 --> 05:16:30,000
was just gaining too much power. I mean, it should

3943
05:16:30,000 --> 05:16:32,880
have been clear that Chamberlain's days were numbered anyway. And

3944
05:16:33,119 --> 05:16:38,919
and politically he was he was, he was dying. But often,

3945
05:16:39,040 --> 05:16:42,799
especially in a system like the UK's, in a parliamentary system,

3946
05:16:42,840 --> 05:16:46,479
the prime minister he developed, is insinuated, is insulated by

3947
05:16:46,639 --> 05:16:49,479
something of an echo chamber, and the information he's privy

3948
05:16:49,560 --> 05:16:53,680
to is na truly insinuated into what the opposition is thinking.

3949
05:16:54,080 --> 05:16:58,040
It's not like America. Okay, there's this blind spots kind

3950
05:16:58,040 --> 05:17:05,040
of built into the executive. But as as it became

3951
05:17:05,200 --> 05:17:07,439
clear that the British were not going to come to

3952
05:17:07,599 --> 05:17:15,560
terms no matter what, Henry Williamson approached Mosley. And Williamson

3953
05:17:15,759 --> 05:17:23,240
wasn't a fascist, but he was very much like enamored

3954
05:17:23,360 --> 05:17:28,279
with Teutonic stuff then with Germany, and he had, you know,

3955
05:17:28,400 --> 05:17:30,520
he had kind of a long view of what was underway,

3956
05:17:32,799 --> 05:17:36,080
and he said, quote, if I could see Hitler, you know,

3957
05:17:36,400 --> 05:17:40,759
a fellow common soldier of nineteen fourteen. You know, I

3958
05:17:41,240 --> 05:17:43,840
might not be able to give him the German common soldier,

3959
05:17:43,919 --> 05:17:46,479
the enmity he so desired from England, you know, to

3960
05:17:46,560 --> 05:17:49,479
be fair, in those days, like people weren't really privy

3961
05:17:49,599 --> 05:17:54,840
to a broad conceptual horizon in terms of policy as

3962
05:17:54,880 --> 05:17:58,400
it was developing. I mean, Williamson was like a society

3963
05:17:58,479 --> 05:18:03,159
type and a novelist. He he probably was naive, but

3964
05:18:03,439 --> 05:18:05,880
you know, it wasn't clear that the fix was in

3965
05:18:06,240 --> 05:18:09,759
no matter what the crown was going to war, that

3966
05:18:09,880 --> 05:18:15,479
was the whole point. But he sought out Moseley, He

3967
05:18:15,560 --> 05:18:18,040
sent him a letter and then when Mosey like asking

3968
05:18:18,119 --> 05:18:21,200
if Moseley could arrange somehow, william started to get an

3969
05:18:21,200 --> 05:18:24,040
audience with Hitler, which was very naive because like despite

3970
05:18:25,159 --> 05:18:27,720
I mean, Hitler very had was very fond of the

3971
05:18:27,759 --> 05:18:32,360
Midford sisters, and Gebels in particular respected Moseley himself, like

3972
05:18:32,439 --> 05:18:35,000
as a man and also like as a political soldier.

3973
05:18:35,680 --> 05:18:37,799
But this idea you could just like get an audience

3974
05:18:37,880 --> 05:18:44,000
with the fear that's that's somewhat ridiculous. But Williamson went

3975
05:18:44,040 --> 05:18:47,520
to visit Mosley on August twenty sixth, you know, days

3976
05:18:47,560 --> 05:18:52,200
before ninety to thirty nine, you know, days before the

3977
05:18:52,360 --> 05:18:58,119
onset of war, and Moseley was totally resigned, and it's like, look,

3978
05:18:58,400 --> 05:19:00,959
I read your letter. I I I understand you're upset.

3979
05:19:01,360 --> 05:19:04,479
I sympathize, but this is pointless and we're probably all

3980
05:19:04,520 --> 05:19:06,680
gonna be in turned if we keep doing what we're doing.

3981
05:19:06,919 --> 05:19:09,840
But I'm gonna see this through. And so Williamson left

3982
05:19:09,880 --> 05:19:12,040
like thinking Mosley was some kind of like maniac, but

3983
05:19:12,119 --> 05:19:18,159
of course he was absolutely correct. You know what, really

3984
05:19:21,000 --> 05:19:26,279
what really kind of changed things from you know, rumblings

3985
05:19:26,319 --> 05:19:31,799
by people like Van Sittart and the War Party talking

3986
05:19:31,799 --> 05:19:37,599
about you know, like locking up traders and whatever it was.

3987
05:19:37,639 --> 05:19:42,240
When the Germans overran the Low countries, and you know,

3988
05:19:42,360 --> 05:19:46,400
it became clear that you know, this this entire enterprise

3989
05:19:46,560 --> 05:19:52,240
of drawing Germany into some attrition war on the Belgian

3990
05:19:52,319 --> 05:19:57,279
frontier and then either humiliating them in the battlefield or

3991
05:19:57,360 --> 05:20:00,840
trying to force terms that they would undoubtedly find uncomfortable,

3992
05:20:01,759 --> 05:20:06,639
whereby you know, the Wehrmacht would overthrow Hitler or whatever

3993
05:20:06,759 --> 05:20:10,279
these I six types were thinking. I mean, it became

3994
05:20:10,360 --> 05:20:14,840
clear that that was like a ridiculous fantasy. So as

3995
05:20:14,919 --> 05:20:19,720
the battlefield situation turned for the worst. As the British

3996
05:20:19,759 --> 05:20:24,279
Expeditionary Force or the allt Expeditionary Force was wing in

3997
05:20:24,479 --> 05:20:31,360
terror at Dunkirk. The establishment became obsessed with this idea

3998
05:20:31,599 --> 05:20:36,439
of we're gonna be subverted from within, and there's some

3999
05:20:36,720 --> 05:20:42,200
fifth column leaking information to Berlin and Mosley and his

4000
05:20:42,279 --> 05:20:46,240
supporters are agents to the ab there, which is laughable,

4001
05:20:46,360 --> 05:20:48,479
especially considered the ad there and was like the fifth

4002
05:20:48,560 --> 05:20:52,680
column in Germany. But the degree to which people advance

4003
05:20:52,680 --> 05:20:56,279
at Tart believed this or not, and whether they believed

4004
05:20:56,400 --> 05:21:02,360
some like the Lyon assault I the Wehrmacht and the

4005
05:21:02,479 --> 05:21:06,080
kriegs Marine was going to happen, it's hard to say.

4006
05:21:06,799 --> 05:21:09,639
I mean, to me, that seems incredible anybody would believe that.

4007
05:21:10,759 --> 05:21:17,680
But uh, Hitler, did you know he assigned von Runstedt

4008
05:21:17,840 --> 05:21:25,080
to actually, in fact engineer and operational program for Sea Lion,

4009
05:21:25,680 --> 05:21:31,159
going as far as the outfit uh civilian barges with

4010
05:21:31,360 --> 05:21:34,720
literal aircraft engines to pilot them across the English Channel,

4011
05:21:36,400 --> 05:21:41,720
having Frankenstein them into landing craft. I mean, Hitler did

4012
05:21:41,759 --> 05:21:45,599
that as a strategic ruse, you know, for the not

4013
05:21:45,759 --> 05:21:49,840
to frighten the British. But you know, to essentially spoof

4014
05:21:50,000 --> 05:21:56,599
like Stalin's intelligence apparatus. And I mean Hitler wasn't a fool,

4015
05:21:57,720 --> 05:22:02,439
you know, in terms of his ability to empathize with

4016
05:22:02,680 --> 05:22:06,080
others and their likely perceptions. But it's one thing to

4017
05:22:06,159 --> 05:22:09,439
convince the Soviet Union of something. It's another thing to

4018
05:22:09,479 --> 05:22:11,680
convince the British now, because the Soviets are dumb and

4019
05:22:11,720 --> 05:22:16,319
the British are smart. But this cultural and linguistic barriers there,

4020
05:22:16,439 --> 05:22:18,799
and there was this physical distance in those days where

4021
05:22:18,799 --> 05:22:21,159
you couldn't have like an electric eye on something eight

4022
05:22:21,240 --> 05:22:25,840
hundred miles west. So this was kind of a perfect

4023
05:22:25,919 --> 05:22:33,840
storm of conditions whereby the War Party could begin treating

4024
05:22:33,919 --> 05:22:39,520
Moseley and anybody else they decided was insufficiently enthusiastic about

4025
05:22:41,560 --> 05:22:45,159
the war effort, as you know, traders and enemies of

4026
05:22:45,200 --> 05:22:48,520
the state. And this was exacerbated by the fact that

4027
05:22:49,040 --> 05:22:52,840
Edward the eighth, the former King, Edward the eighth, he'd

4028
05:22:52,919 --> 05:22:56,360
only reigned from January twentieth, nineteen thirty six until December

4029
05:22:56,439 --> 05:23:00,919
of the year. What he abdicated to Mary Wallace Simpson,

4030
05:23:01,720 --> 05:23:05,680
you know, the American divorce, A kind of flapper party girl.

4031
05:23:06,319 --> 05:23:09,040
She's a woman. She was like her only thirties, but

4032
05:23:10,560 --> 05:23:17,560
you know, Edward the eighth was a known anti war partisan,

4033
05:23:18,400 --> 05:23:22,840
and Van Sittart began insisting that, you know, obviously we

4034
05:23:22,959 --> 05:23:27,919
can't place the Duke of Windsor under arrest, but you know,

4035
05:23:29,080 --> 05:23:32,880
him coming out publicly in favor of the Peace Party

4036
05:23:34,200 --> 05:23:38,040
could sabotage the war effort, which is already becoming desperate

4037
05:23:38,080 --> 05:23:44,680
in strategic terms. And this basically was when the fix

4038
05:23:44,880 --> 05:23:51,759
was in Okay for Defense Regulation eighteen B and when

4039
05:23:51,840 --> 05:23:53,240
Moseley was arrested.

4040
05:23:54,400 --> 05:23:54,639
Speaker 1: To be.

4041
05:23:56,279 --> 05:24:03,759
Speaker 2: Clear, at peak there was only sixty five or so internees,

4042
05:24:04,599 --> 05:24:06,319
and a lot of these people were there, like a

4043
05:24:06,360 --> 05:24:10,200
lot of these people were Right Club members, some of

4044
05:24:10,279 --> 05:24:18,000
them were Imperial Fascist League holdovers. But it was basically tailored,

4045
05:24:19,319 --> 05:24:22,159
like a lot of that was cosmetic, it was it

4046
05:24:22,240 --> 05:24:28,479
was very clearly tailored to incarcerate Moseley and you know

4047
05:24:30,319 --> 05:24:33,759
Ruin is uh without making him a martyr. I think

4048
05:24:33,799 --> 05:24:37,400
by then they realized even if they had the even

4049
05:24:37,439 --> 05:24:40,119
if they had the nominal legal authority to execute him,

4050
05:24:40,159 --> 05:24:42,919
that that would have been disastrous for reasons I'll get into.

4051
05:24:43,119 --> 05:24:46,080
But at and B was the was like the Imprisoned

4052
05:24:46,159 --> 05:24:55,240
Moseley Act, and all but name okay, the uh immediately

4053
05:24:55,400 --> 05:24:58,919
before or in the year in like the six to

4054
05:24:59,000 --> 05:25:03,200
twelve months before he was incarcerated. In the days after

4055
05:25:04,040 --> 05:25:07,919
the UK's war declaration is Germany, Moseley went on a

4056
05:25:08,040 --> 05:25:13,040
tear But he framed this very skillfully, like I don't

4057
05:25:13,080 --> 05:25:15,200
mean any think cynical, like he believed everything he said.

4058
05:25:15,279 --> 05:25:18,240
But he again he he was he was sticking to

4059
05:25:18,400 --> 05:25:23,040
his ammunition to people to scrupulously abide the law and

4060
05:25:23,159 --> 05:25:28,040
not to try to undermine the war effort, although you

4061
05:25:28,080 --> 05:25:30,520
know obviously like he admonished people and not doing anything

4062
05:25:30,560 --> 05:25:37,159
to help it. He started characterizing the Peace Party cause

4063
05:25:37,400 --> 05:25:39,360
like what it becoming kind of the Peace Party de

4064
05:25:39,479 --> 05:25:42,959
facto as you know, leave that leave fourn elements on

4065
05:25:43,040 --> 05:25:45,799
the content to fight out through him quarrels. You know,

4066
05:25:45,880 --> 05:25:50,159
He's like, we, uh, we've gotta we've got to curate

4067
05:25:50,680 --> 05:25:54,119
the empire and what what remains of the empire, you know,

4068
05:25:54,200 --> 05:25:57,400
because at that point there was h the Irish situation,

4069
05:25:58,319 --> 05:26:00,759
you know, there was real talk and the Arlamanda letting

4070
05:26:00,799 --> 05:26:03,919
India go. I mean, this was this was a this

4071
05:26:04,080 --> 05:26:07,080
was a critical juncture in historical terms, you know, and

4072
05:26:07,159 --> 05:26:09,599
he said that we've got to we've got to carry

4073
05:26:09,639 --> 05:26:12,240
the empire. We've got to shore up, you know, this

4074
05:26:12,799 --> 05:26:15,720
vast capital that we do still possess. We've got to

4075
05:26:15,799 --> 05:26:22,200
transition somehow into a post imperial condition without sacrificing our power,

4076
05:26:22,279 --> 05:26:27,200
projection ability and our our truly global capital, you know.

4077
05:26:27,439 --> 05:26:30,759
And this made a lot of sense, not just a fascists,

4078
05:26:31,919 --> 05:26:34,799
and you know, people were disgusted with the War Party

4079
05:26:34,799 --> 05:26:36,639
and the Focus, but it made a lot of sense,

4080
05:26:36,759 --> 05:26:39,560
even the Tories, you know, like those who hadn't been

4081
05:26:39,599 --> 05:26:43,400
totally compromised by uh, you know, by the Focus and

4082
05:26:43,840 --> 05:26:48,520
and and adjacent element. And Moseley was saying something that

4083
05:26:49,439 --> 05:26:51,759
was on people's minds but was not supposed to be said.

4084
05:26:52,400 --> 05:26:55,159
You know, he said, like war, even if we win

4085
05:26:55,319 --> 05:26:58,040
this war, it will lead to the disaster of defeat.

4086
05:26:58,880 --> 05:27:02,240
It will lead to the triumph communism. In planetary terms,

4087
05:27:02,560 --> 05:27:05,599
it will be the end of the British Empire. You know,

4088
05:27:06,000 --> 05:27:10,560
the only winners will be international Jewish finance. You know,

4089
05:27:10,720 --> 05:27:12,799
his word's not mine. I'd agree with that, but just

4090
05:27:12,880 --> 05:27:17,360
to be clear, America, in the Soviet Union and world Communism,

4091
05:27:17,759 --> 05:27:21,400
this is a suicidal effort. You know, they're Germans are

4092
05:27:21,400 --> 05:27:23,520
not our enemies, but even if you hate them, we

4093
05:27:23,680 --> 05:27:28,400
can't win this war, you know. And a certain energy

4094
05:27:28,479 --> 05:27:34,080
started developing behind that, you know, like Uh, Diana Moseley

4095
05:27:34,319 --> 05:27:40,840
Uh made the point like years on and that October

4096
05:27:40,919 --> 05:27:45,040
ninety thirty nine at the Stoll Theater, just under three

4097
05:27:45,080 --> 05:27:49,799
thousand people turned out and uh mostly started openly condemning

4098
05:27:50,040 --> 05:27:54,680
Jewish capitalists, you know, American Jewish capitalists and and radical

4099
05:27:56,599 --> 05:28:00,919
radical elements. Uh, you know, who who have who have

4100
05:28:01,000 --> 05:28:05,479
a Zionist cause in mind, who are or driving us

4101
05:28:05,479 --> 05:28:08,720
towards war when Britain's have no interest in this war.

4102
05:28:09,439 --> 05:28:13,159
And she said that people were going nuts, like effusively.

4103
05:28:13,560 --> 05:28:16,360
They were like throwing romans at him and stuff. You know.

4104
05:28:18,119 --> 05:28:22,639
This at the New Hippodrome it was the same thing.

4105
05:28:23,880 --> 05:28:27,360
It was a two thousand or so people, you know,

4106
05:28:28,279 --> 05:28:30,720
almost all of whom were like throwing romans to loots

4107
05:28:30,720 --> 05:28:33,319
like it was like a mini like Nuremberg rally, you know,

4108
05:28:33,479 --> 05:28:37,119
and obviously special branches on the ground watching this stuff.

4109
05:28:38,000 --> 05:28:41,119
And hostile media, I mean, other than the Daily Mail,

4110
05:28:42,520 --> 05:28:47,599
the entirety of national media was against Mosley. But you know,

4111
05:28:47,840 --> 05:28:51,560
just by word of mouth and just by you know,

4112
05:28:52,119 --> 05:29:00,200
getting FaceTime with regular people in all these districts where

4113
05:29:00,200 --> 05:29:02,720
there might be fertile ground for his message. And of

4114
05:29:02,799 --> 05:29:05,200
course too, these are the guys and the parents and

4115
05:29:05,240 --> 05:29:07,680
sweethearts and wives of guys we're gonna get who're gonna

4116
05:29:07,680 --> 05:29:12,599
get drafted, you know, living in these places. There was

4117
05:29:12,639 --> 05:29:15,919
a real momentum there. And this was London also in

4118
05:29:16,080 --> 05:29:20,360
large measure, okay, And I mean that's huge, and especially

4119
05:29:20,360 --> 05:29:23,400
in the UK. It's like eldy one thing. If Moseley

4120
05:29:23,599 --> 05:29:31,119
was uh was only raising mobs of this of this

4121
05:29:31,319 --> 05:29:35,479
numerical magnitude you know, in the sticks are in you know,

4122
05:29:35,680 --> 05:29:39,240
kind of far flung constituencies, I mean, like his own Frankly,

4123
05:29:39,919 --> 05:29:41,799
that'd be one thing, but I mean this was this

4124
05:29:41,959 --> 05:29:44,360
was in London. He was doing this, you know, and

4125
05:29:45,840 --> 05:29:50,799
the mostly rallying cry at this point, just before internament

4126
05:29:51,119 --> 05:29:54,240
was like raise your arm for peace, meaning like you know,

4127
05:29:55,000 --> 05:29:57,040
hail victory, but you know for peace.

4128
05:29:57,919 --> 05:29:58,119
Speaker 1: You know.

4129
05:29:58,400 --> 05:30:02,560
Speaker 2: When that that really really really upset Van Sittart, Vancaitar

4130
05:30:02,639 --> 05:30:04,720
took to going around handing out I mean, what what

4131
05:30:05,000 --> 05:30:07,000
what what a petty piece of ship? This guy was

4132
05:30:07,319 --> 05:30:09,240
hestead of going around druing a list of people he

4133
05:30:09,319 --> 05:30:12,319
wanted to see shot for treason, Like what what kind

4134
05:30:12,360 --> 05:30:16,000
of a like like, what kind of an adult man?

4135
05:30:16,240 --> 05:30:21,000
Presumably you know, sound mind goes around drawing up a

4136
05:30:21,080 --> 05:30:23,080
list of people he wants dead. I mean, you can't,

4137
05:30:23,919 --> 05:30:25,919
you can't make this up. But these these are the

4138
05:30:26,040 --> 05:30:29,880
kinds of people who were you know, in UH in

4139
05:30:30,000 --> 05:30:33,240
the true seat of power, which speaks for itself. But

4140
05:30:37,040 --> 05:30:40,319
another thing, that kind of UH not just sealed Mosley's

4141
05:30:40,479 --> 05:30:47,080
fate in terms of UH, the focused regime, but also

4142
05:30:47,639 --> 05:30:55,880
raised his profile and made him indisputably the UH that

4143
05:30:56,080 --> 05:31:00,560
like the the the leader of British fascism and national socialism.

4144
05:31:02,520 --> 05:31:05,159
It was the matter of William Joyce as I think

4145
05:31:05,240 --> 05:31:11,240
of it. And also Gebels openly praising Mosley, and Gebels

4146
05:31:11,279 --> 05:31:14,080
didn't really praise anybody outside of the Greater German Reich

4147
05:31:14,880 --> 05:31:19,240
as a part of that was political. Part of that

4148
05:31:19,319 --> 05:31:22,919
was because Gebels was it just wasn't really in his

4149
05:31:23,080 --> 05:31:29,439
nature to be that charitable, you know. But William Joyce

4150
05:31:30,799 --> 05:31:34,840
was executed in a gross miscarriage of justice. And I'll

4151
05:31:34,840 --> 05:31:40,400
get into what it is. Who is William Joyce. William

4152
05:31:40,439 --> 05:31:44,360
Joyce join the British Union of fascists in nineteen thirty two,

4153
05:31:45,520 --> 05:31:50,360
so he could be considered an alt confirm it. Became

4154
05:31:50,439 --> 05:31:54,000
a leading speaker. He was an Irishman. He was Protestant,

4155
05:31:54,080 --> 05:31:55,720
but he was an irishman. Like I don't mean he

4156
05:31:55,759 --> 05:31:57,880
was an ulsterman. I mean he was Irish Irish, but

4157
05:31:58,799 --> 05:32:04,040
well I'll get into his family's loyalism and his mother's

4158
05:32:04,919 --> 05:32:10,880
confessional heritage. But he, uh, he was a typical kind

4159
05:32:10,919 --> 05:32:14,720
of or not typical. Is nothing typical about this, but

4160
05:32:15,240 --> 05:32:17,520
he was kind of like a cliched like great kind

4161
05:32:17,560 --> 05:32:22,000
of like Irish order and like partisan. You know. Uh,

4162
05:32:23,759 --> 05:32:26,959
he was just like very thin, almost kind of almost

4163
05:32:27,040 --> 05:32:32,400
kind of spectral looking man, like very pale, but super intense.

4164
05:32:32,919 --> 05:32:35,880
You know, he wasn't conventionally handsome, but like women really

4165
05:32:36,080 --> 05:32:38,720
liked him and and like and like guys looked up

4166
05:32:38,720 --> 05:32:41,279
to him, and you know he there was like this

4167
05:32:41,400 --> 05:32:47,119
kind of dynamic like really really forceful, angry tenor to

4168
05:32:47,240 --> 05:32:50,520
his delivery that never seemed like theatrically ridiculous. Like the

4169
05:32:50,599 --> 05:32:53,200
guy he just seemed like stone, like a stone cold

4170
05:32:53,479 --> 05:32:55,840
partisan who also I had like a gift of like

4171
05:32:56,439 --> 05:33:03,119
beautiful flourish that was never obnoxious and soaring in its quality.

4172
05:33:04,200 --> 05:33:07,959
But uh, he became the BUF director of propaganda. He

4173
05:33:08,080 --> 05:33:15,080
replaced Wilfred Risden and later became arguably the like like

4174
05:33:15,159 --> 05:33:19,119
the closest man after the closest man to Mosley, like

4175
05:33:19,240 --> 05:33:25,040
in in the leadership element. He also like as another

4176
05:33:25,240 --> 05:33:28,119
like cliched Irish character is he was a brawler. Like

4177
05:33:28,400 --> 05:33:30,759
he he'd go, he'd go toe to toe with any man.

4178
05:33:30,880 --> 05:33:34,040
He had no fear and despite like not being physically strong,

4179
05:33:34,159 --> 05:33:36,319
he was incredibly tough and people were afraid of him.

4180
05:33:36,360 --> 05:33:42,400
He was like a legit like street fighter. But uh,

4181
05:33:44,360 --> 05:33:48,720
what's significant though, is he he'd been born in Brooklyn,

4182
05:33:49,639 --> 05:33:55,880
New York City, USA. His parents, uh were from the

4183
05:33:56,000 --> 05:34:03,279
West of Ireland. His mother was a this devout like Anglican,

4184
05:34:03,479 --> 05:34:07,200
like Church of Ireland Anglican. His dad was a Catholic,

4185
05:34:07,360 --> 05:34:10,720
but his mom definitely ruled the roost, and when he

4186
05:34:10,840 --> 05:34:14,680
was still an infant, his parents moved back to Ireland.

4187
05:34:15,520 --> 05:34:20,599
You know. But he his citizenship was American and Irish.

4188
05:34:20,639 --> 05:34:23,479
He was not a British citizen. And this becomes significant

4189
05:34:25,560 --> 05:34:30,040
not just for academic reasons, but for reasons of due

4190
05:34:30,080 --> 05:34:38,520
process on other things. But his big, his big contribution

4191
05:34:38,759 --> 05:34:43,599
in part he spearheaded the effort to First of all,

4192
05:34:44,080 --> 05:34:47,240
he was instrumental in changing the name that bufter the

4193
05:34:47,279 --> 05:34:51,000
British Union of Fascists and National Socialists. He identified as

4194
05:34:51,040 --> 05:34:55,279
a national socialist, first last and always. Okay, he had

4195
05:34:55,360 --> 05:34:58,000
no time. I mean, he was obviously pro white, like

4196
05:34:58,240 --> 05:35:01,479
all national socialists are. They had no time for the

4197
05:35:01,520 --> 05:35:04,799
bullshit racialism of people like our lease. You know, he said,

4198
05:35:04,840 --> 05:35:07,720
our enemies first last and always are the Jews. You know,

4199
05:35:09,919 --> 05:35:13,119
if if we're not going to attack Jewish power and

4200
05:35:13,200 --> 05:35:17,040
identified Jews as is like the enemies of of of

4201
05:35:17,279 --> 05:35:22,520
of the European race, then we're not serious, you know.

4202
05:35:23,119 --> 05:35:28,200
And the transition of the party platform away from this

4203
05:35:28,400 --> 05:35:32,880
kind of like in ideological terms, that kind of secular corporatism,

4204
05:35:33,759 --> 05:35:37,560
and away from this kind of like bullshit racialism towards

4205
05:35:37,759 --> 05:35:42,279
you know, a real kind of national socialist disposition that

4206
05:35:42,639 --> 05:35:47,840
was very, very focused on combating when they perceived as

4207
05:35:47,959 --> 05:35:54,119
the Jewish enemy. This this was this was because of Joyce. Okay.

4208
05:35:58,319 --> 05:36:03,840
He was ultimately sacked by Moseley, and he went on

4209
05:36:04,000 --> 05:36:12,599
to establish his own National Socialist firm, which wasn't the

4210
05:36:12,680 --> 05:36:16,479
massive membership organization that thinks the question is to whether Joyce,

4211
05:36:16,560 --> 05:36:23,439
despite is brilliance for oratory and political soldiery in partisan terms.

4212
05:36:24,759 --> 05:36:27,080
I speculate he might have thought that a Sea Lion

4213
05:36:27,119 --> 05:36:30,119
assault was coming and he was trying to form a cadre.

4214
05:36:31,119 --> 05:36:34,400
But because it may him and Mosey's falling out, Mosey

4215
05:36:34,520 --> 05:36:37,319
refused to condemn him or speak against him. It was

4216
05:36:37,360 --> 05:36:41,080
pretty clear it was personal or Joyce maybe we'll have

4217
05:36:41,200 --> 05:36:46,400
had designs on on on leadership, and that's something you

4218
05:36:46,479 --> 05:36:50,720
can't tolerate. It doesn't make you an egomaniac or somebody

4219
05:36:50,759 --> 05:36:55,319
who's in the game for clout. You can't. You can't

4220
05:36:55,319 --> 05:36:58,400
have people who are like intriguing to like replace you

4221
05:36:58,880 --> 05:37:03,840
in the ranks. But one of the reasons I believe

4222
05:37:03,959 --> 05:37:06,919
that Joyce thought Sea Lion was gonna be a reality,

4223
05:37:08,000 --> 05:37:13,080
Joyce said to his intimates and confidence openly he was

4224
05:37:13,240 --> 05:37:16,880
really outraged by the Government of India bill which was

4225
05:37:16,959 --> 05:37:20,040
passed in nineteen thirty five. I mean outraged at the

4226
05:37:20,119 --> 05:37:24,479
government because that basically was a plan for like a

4227
05:37:24,599 --> 05:37:31,840
kind of devolved federalism or devolved administration in India, similar

4228
05:37:31,880 --> 05:37:35,159
to what had gone gone on in Ireland, with eventually

4229
05:37:35,279 --> 05:37:42,639
obviously like letting India, go, Joyce said, you know, I'm

4230
05:37:42,680 --> 05:37:46,240
gonna be the Viceroy of India someday when we win

4231
05:37:46,799 --> 05:37:52,000
meaning the access powers. You know, who who is there

4232
05:37:52,040 --> 05:37:56,080
going to be under arms as a cadre, you know,

4233
05:37:56,520 --> 05:38:00,119
but but us and and and the BUF you know,

4234
05:38:00,200 --> 05:38:03,599
a national socialists who've proven themselves by fighting the communists

4235
05:38:03,639 --> 05:38:06,599
in the street. I'm paraphrasing, you know, and and Edward

4236
05:38:06,680 --> 05:38:09,560
the Eighth is gonna he's gonna, you know, he's he's

4237
05:38:09,599 --> 05:38:13,080
gonna reclaim his rightful place again, you know, on the throne.

4238
05:38:13,720 --> 05:38:17,240
And I'm gonna become the Viceroy of India. You know.

4239
05:38:17,400 --> 05:38:20,720
He's like mostly told me that. Whether mostly told him

4240
05:38:20,759 --> 05:38:29,439
that or not, who knows. But obviously as late as

4241
05:38:29,560 --> 05:38:33,000
late as a ninety forty one or so, there's nothing

4242
05:38:33,200 --> 05:38:36,279
he believed that this is like actually gonna happen. And

4243
05:38:36,639 --> 05:38:40,080
don't get me wrong, everybody thought that Germany was was

4244
05:38:40,319 --> 05:38:42,919
going to realize n sig That's what I'm talking about.

4245
05:38:43,639 --> 05:38:45,919
He literally thought that, like there's gonna be like a

4246
05:38:46,040 --> 05:38:50,759
national socialist United Kingdom like under German hegemony, and the

4247
05:38:50,880 --> 05:38:56,520
Empire was gonna, you know, become like the fascist guardian

4248
05:38:56,599 --> 05:39:01,479
of the Sea. Or something which seems pretty fantastical. But

4249
05:39:01,599 --> 05:39:05,680
again I've noticed that in my own life as well

4250
05:39:05,720 --> 05:39:10,240
as in my studies of the historical record, a lot

4251
05:39:10,279 --> 05:39:13,720
of guys who make the best partisans, you know, and

4252
05:39:14,080 --> 05:39:17,200
in the way that Joyce was, they don't really understand

4253
05:39:17,360 --> 05:39:22,919
Blake conceptual geopolitics and in Zeitgeist things. Okay, so I'm

4254
05:39:22,959 --> 05:39:24,560
not gonna sit here and make fun of Joys for

4255
05:39:24,680 --> 05:39:28,439
being like an Irish and angry Irish romangic who you know,

4256
05:39:28,720 --> 05:39:37,319
was was at base like a political soldier. But Joyce

4257
05:39:37,520 --> 05:39:42,599
uh realized the way things were going when the Second

4258
05:39:42,599 --> 05:39:47,360
World War broke out, and that he realized, okay, I'm

4259
05:39:47,400 --> 05:39:52,759
probably eminently going to be arrested, you know. So Joyce

4260
05:39:52,799 --> 05:40:00,720
and his wife emigrated to Germany. He he'd been tipped

4261
05:40:00,759 --> 05:40:05,919
off probably that uh, he was going to be detained somehow,

4262
05:40:06,119 --> 05:40:10,119
even for a even before Defense Rag eighteen D came down,

4263
05:40:12,400 --> 05:40:15,919
especially because he wasn't the British citizen, you know, if

4264
05:40:15,959 --> 05:40:20,000
they wanted to really play perfect is hardball, they could say, well,

4265
05:40:20,119 --> 05:40:25,360
you're an enemy alien, aren't you. You know. And in

4266
05:40:25,479 --> 05:40:29,680
nineteen forty he became a naturalized German citizen and upon

4267
05:40:30,119 --> 05:40:34,119
owing to his own kind of gumption in charisma, as

4268
05:40:34,200 --> 05:40:36,919
well as the fact that again he and Mosey had

4269
05:40:36,919 --> 05:40:40,479
are falling out, but Mosey never condemned the man or

4270
05:40:40,520 --> 05:40:47,639
anything of the sort. Joyce had. He had a chance

4271
05:40:47,720 --> 05:40:53,560
of meeting with a lady named Dorothy Eckersley who'd also

4272
05:40:53,680 --> 05:40:58,360
emigrated to Berlin, and she'd been uh in the in

4273
05:40:58,439 --> 05:41:04,200
the women's division into the BUF and uh she got

4274
05:41:04,279 --> 05:41:07,400
him an interview or at least to sit down at

4275
05:41:07,400 --> 05:41:17,560
the room funk house, the broadcasting house. Okay, that is

4276
05:41:17,639 --> 05:41:23,400
how Lord Hahawk came to exist. Okay, because Gerbels, who

4277
05:41:23,479 --> 05:41:29,840
was always looking for people who could propagandis fluently, you know,

4278
05:41:30,159 --> 05:41:36,200
in languages that would be impactful in key constituencies. You know,

4279
05:41:36,200 --> 05:41:37,799
I can't remember his names on my head, but there

4280
05:41:37,880 --> 05:41:40,639
was there was this Iraqi guy who became buddies with

4281
05:41:40,759 --> 05:41:44,959
Gebels and he broadcasts you know, Arabic language pro axis

4282
05:41:45,080 --> 05:41:51,040
propaganda to Iraq, the Levant you know, Palestine, and I

4283
05:41:51,119 --> 05:41:56,959
mean that's fascinating too. But uh, Joyce's first broadcast, uh

4284
05:41:57,959 --> 05:42:01,279
he read the news out in English on September sixth,

4285
05:42:01,400 --> 05:42:04,720
nineteen thirty nine, just three days after the onset of

4286
05:42:04,759 --> 05:42:11,400
hostilities and they were so impressed. And he had he

4287
05:42:11,400 --> 05:42:14,599
had he had perfect diction, you know, which he was

4288
05:42:14,639 --> 05:42:17,840
an educated guy, and again he had a cosmopolitan upbringing

4289
05:42:17,959 --> 05:42:20,759
despite you don't think of like an Irish street fighter

4290
05:42:20,799 --> 05:42:25,959
as having that sort of intellectual resume, but he did.

4291
05:42:26,319 --> 05:42:33,479
And he uh he became the exclusive English and newsreader

4292
05:42:33,599 --> 05:42:40,919
of the Propaganda Ministry. He got his name, uh a

4293
05:42:41,000 --> 05:42:47,400
guy named Jonah Barrington, a Daily Express radio critic. He

4294
05:42:47,520 --> 05:42:52,560
referred to him as a man quote moaning periodically from

4295
05:42:52,720 --> 05:42:56,520
Ziesen who speaks English of the hahawd, damn it out

4296
05:42:56,560 --> 05:43:00,360
of my way variety. So uh, Joyce decided to lean

4297
05:43:00,439 --> 05:43:03,759
into that ship instead of identifying himself as Lord Hawhaw,

4298
05:43:04,319 --> 05:43:12,520
which is actually pretty funny. But it what's ironic though,

4299
05:43:12,639 --> 05:43:16,799
is later there was this guy, uh who's a comedian

4300
05:43:18,520 --> 05:43:22,599
who was also on uh on on on on Berlin

4301
05:43:22,720 --> 05:43:26,639
radio then named Wolf Miler and uh he was a

4302
05:43:26,720 --> 05:43:29,959
comedian and a journalist, and he'd affect this like almost

4303
05:43:30,080 --> 05:43:34,279
flawless English accent that sounded deliberately moronic, almost kind of

4304
05:43:34,279 --> 05:43:36,959
like a Monty Python his caricature, you know, and I

4305
05:43:37,080 --> 05:43:41,840
just like say, like ridiculous bullshit and it's it's it's

4306
05:43:41,919 --> 05:43:44,520
believed Barrington might even though he said that it was

4307
05:43:44,680 --> 05:43:49,000
Joyce that he heard, he might have heard uh Midler,

4308
05:43:49,200 --> 05:43:53,119
which makes it even like more funny. But uh, you know,

4309
05:43:53,400 --> 05:43:56,200
like uh as on the side, I mean adddlely like uh,

4310
05:43:57,880 --> 05:43:59,959
I've I've got uh I've got kind of a stray

4311
05:44:00,040 --> 05:44:02,720
in sense of humor. But uh, if you know what

4312
05:44:02,840 --> 05:44:05,439
to look for and you understand the context, like adjusting

4313
05:44:05,520 --> 05:44:11,080
for historical uh nuances. Uh, like a lot, a lot

4314
05:44:11,119 --> 05:44:12,840
of a lot of the stuff that came out of

4315
05:44:13,279 --> 05:44:16,439
Germany of like that was deliberately comedic was actually like

4316
05:44:16,520 --> 05:44:20,000
really funny. Like it's not like Germans are just like

4317
05:44:20,040 --> 05:44:24,599
a funny people, you know, like uh figuratively and like

4318
05:44:24,720 --> 05:44:30,639
literally and in terms of their comedic chops. But this,

4319
05:44:30,840 --> 05:44:34,159
I mean, this whole thing kind of seems like like

4320
05:44:34,479 --> 05:44:37,959
like something you'd see in like a comedic satire movie.

4321
05:44:38,080 --> 05:44:42,000
Like it isn't weird, but I mean, like everything everything

4322
05:44:42,040 --> 05:44:44,799
that happens with respect to the British at wards, everything

4323
05:44:44,840 --> 05:44:50,400
involving the British at wartime is weird. But the uh,

4324
05:44:51,439 --> 05:44:55,400
the combination of Lord Haja suddenly appearing like whoever Barrington heard,

4325
05:44:55,840 --> 05:44:59,080
like haha, was like a real guy. Yet he was

4326
05:45:00,439 --> 05:45:09,520
broadcasting on the daily and that and British Intelligence you know,

4327
05:45:09,680 --> 05:45:14,000
which was and they were very good and they still

4328
05:45:14,159 --> 05:45:19,520
are in imperative terms them coming to understand that Gerbels

4329
05:45:19,560 --> 05:45:21,959
thought highly the b u F and he basically never

4330
05:45:22,159 --> 05:45:31,040
mentioned like any other like national Socialist element abroad m

4331
05:45:31,119 --> 05:45:36,200
I six uh secret intelligence service. They were laid back to, Uh,

4332
05:45:38,319 --> 05:45:42,400
they were laid back to the war cabinet. Look. Gebels

4333
05:45:42,479 --> 05:45:46,799
considers the BUF to be like the National Socialist cadre

4334
05:45:47,200 --> 05:45:50,000
in in in the United Kingdom. That's literally what they said.

4335
05:45:53,000 --> 05:45:57,200
And that's when the fix was in finally, you know,

4336
05:45:57,240 --> 05:45:58,880
I mean it was I think it was an Now

4337
05:45:59,200 --> 05:46:01,240
most of it was going to be in cars rated regardless.

4338
05:46:01,319 --> 05:46:08,479
But that was when even even accounting for the deliberately

4339
05:46:08,919 --> 05:46:20,799
loose language statutory language devised uh for Regulation eighteen B,

4340
05:46:21,720 --> 05:46:24,560
now they had what was, you know, concrete evidence that

4341
05:46:25,119 --> 05:46:29,439
Mosley was a clear and present threat to national security

4342
05:46:32,599 --> 05:46:37,439
and that uh, that was that what became a joyce.

4343
05:46:37,759 --> 05:46:46,840
This is important and just a horrible joyce was captured

4344
05:46:47,240 --> 05:46:53,520
at Flindersberg, which is near the German border with Denmark,

4345
05:46:55,959 --> 05:46:58,279
which of course was where like the last play. It

4346
05:46:58,360 --> 05:47:00,319
was near me like the last with a on its

4347
05:47:00,680 --> 05:47:11,880
government was you know, Joyce got captured. The British Army

4348
05:47:11,919 --> 05:47:16,200
intelligence obviously they took a very strong interest in what

4349
05:47:16,439 --> 05:47:23,159
was going on in that operational area. They spotted this

4350
05:47:23,279 --> 05:47:27,840
disheveled looking guy gathering firewood, you know, so they confronted him.

4351
05:47:29,520 --> 05:47:35,680
The German jew who's adopted uh name was Jeffrey Perry

4352
05:47:36,400 --> 05:47:45,360
even born Horst Penschever or Pinshever Pinschever. Uh, like a

4353
05:47:45,479 --> 05:47:48,680
lot of a lot of German Jewry, German and Polish

4354
05:47:48,759 --> 05:47:52,520
Jews had found their way to the UK and the USA,

4355
05:47:52,919 --> 05:47:57,080
and they were very deep and military intelligence. And of course, uh.

4356
05:47:59,520 --> 05:48:03,560
One of them men who testified, uh interrogated and then

4357
05:48:03,599 --> 05:48:08,200
testified on Piper and leipstend Art was Pearl, who later

4358
05:48:08,360 --> 05:48:13,439
came out wash was uh what was a torture, you know?

4359
05:48:13,560 --> 05:48:17,279
His his his old thing was enhanced interrogation, you know,

4360
05:48:17,880 --> 05:48:20,720
which is really really grotesque in all kinds of ways.

4361
05:48:21,040 --> 05:48:27,680
But I have no idea if if Perry a ka Pinsh,

4362
05:48:27,720 --> 05:48:32,759
I have ever tortured anybody. But he was an intelligence

4363
05:48:32,880 --> 05:48:40,000
man and he engaged joys and conversation, and he was

4364
05:48:40,040 --> 05:48:44,599
about to let him go, and he said, uh, you've

4365
05:48:44,639 --> 05:48:48,159
got a really interesting diction. You know, have you ever

4366
05:48:48,959 --> 05:48:52,040
have you ever been west? Have you ever been you know,

4367
05:48:52,159 --> 05:48:57,840
to the United States and the United Kingdom? And I

4368
05:48:57,959 --> 05:49:03,319
guess uh Joyce answered him in English, and they carried

4369
05:49:03,400 --> 05:49:06,040
on for a moment, you know, Joyce kind of carefully

4370
05:49:08,000 --> 05:49:12,599
guarding his identity, and one of the other men in

4371
05:49:12,799 --> 05:49:18,080
Pinschever's details said, that's Lord Hawhaw. I recognized that voice,

4372
05:49:18,919 --> 05:49:24,159
and Joyce had a really like deep register that was distinct,

4373
05:49:24,639 --> 05:49:26,240
you know, and if you hear somebody on the radio

4374
05:49:26,599 --> 05:49:30,400
all the time, and especially intelligence types who I'm sure

4375
05:49:30,400 --> 05:49:42,599
we're studying these broadcasts. Pinschever then detained him and after

4376
05:49:42,639 --> 05:49:46,040
a while, you know, Joyce is like, look, I'm not

4377
05:49:46,639 --> 05:49:49,279
I'm not gonna pretend I'm I'm William Joyce, I'm Lord

4378
05:49:49,360 --> 05:49:58,200
haw you know. He was driven to a border post

4379
05:49:58,279 --> 05:50:00,200
and then he was handed over to the MP. He's

4380
05:50:01,319 --> 05:50:04,240
he was taken to London and he was tried on

4381
05:50:05,000 --> 05:50:08,759
charges of high treason because again the trees in law,

4382
05:50:08,959 --> 05:50:16,000
the only punishment was death, you know, and uh, he

4383
05:50:16,159 --> 05:50:19,840
pled not guilty on a theory of I'm not a

4384
05:50:19,959 --> 05:50:22,639
citizen of the United Kingdom. I can't be a trader,

4385
05:50:23,959 --> 05:50:29,040
you know. And a lady named Rebecca West wrote a

4386
05:50:29,119 --> 05:50:34,240
book called the Meaning of Treason, and this kind of

4387
05:50:34,279 --> 05:50:37,119
brought the case to kind of greater awareness. Like people,

4388
05:50:37,680 --> 05:50:40,720
I think people did employ realize, especially because about propaganda

4389
05:50:40,759 --> 05:50:44,240
as they were, as well as the lack of availability

4390
05:50:44,360 --> 05:50:48,479
of information that we take for granted today, take for

4391
05:50:48,639 --> 05:50:52,560
granted today. I think they just assumed that you've been

4392
05:50:52,639 --> 05:50:56,880
tried for you know, some some kind of propaganda related

4393
05:50:56,919 --> 05:50:59,599
war crime or something, you know, and didn't really think

4394
05:50:59,599 --> 05:51:04,919
about it, you know. And of course Julius Striker had

4395
05:51:04,959 --> 05:51:08,479
been executed for quite literally publishing a magazine or a

4396
05:51:08,560 --> 05:51:12,040
newspaper that was in bad taste, you know, I mean so,

4397
05:51:13,240 --> 05:51:20,040
but he was literally tried and executed for treason, you know. Uh.

4398
05:51:23,799 --> 05:51:30,799
And uh A J. P. Taylor, who's a not he's

4399
05:51:30,840 --> 05:51:33,840
a revisionist in a sense. He's a great historian. I

4400
05:51:33,959 --> 05:51:38,400
highly recommend him. Norman Davies was a disciple at Taylor.

4401
05:51:41,520 --> 05:51:46,520
Taylor wrote in his History of England technically quote technically,

4402
05:51:46,680 --> 05:51:49,560
Joyce was hanged from making a false statement when applying

4403
05:51:49,639 --> 05:51:52,479
for a passport, the usual penalty of which is a

4404
05:51:52,560 --> 05:51:58,200
small fine, which is kind of this literal gallows humor,

4405
05:51:58,319 --> 05:52:06,159
but it also happens to be true the statement just

4406
05:52:06,240 --> 05:52:10,240
for clarity, and I'm sure the subs are probably interested

4407
05:52:11,880 --> 05:52:17,360
the statement. The literal statement that was attributed to Gebels

4408
05:52:17,680 --> 05:52:22,639
regarding the matter of Oswald Moseley and the BUF was

4409
05:52:23,319 --> 05:52:28,279
this is submitted by Special Intelligence Service. They claimed Gebels

4410
05:52:28,919 --> 05:52:31,439
was on a record as saying, quote, Moseley is making

4411
05:52:31,520 --> 05:52:35,599
his presence felt if he goes ahead skillfully, he will

4412
05:52:35,639 --> 05:52:45,959
have several opportunities. That seems weirdly cryptic and scripted. I mean,

4413
05:52:46,040 --> 05:52:49,560
I've read a lot of what Gebels wrote. I don't

4414
05:52:49,560 --> 05:52:51,560
want to get into some debate about like what is

4415
05:52:51,639 --> 05:52:54,159
authentic and what is not to take my words what

4416
05:52:54,240 --> 05:52:56,040
I've written a lot of what Gebels. I've read a

4417
05:52:56,080 --> 05:52:59,360
lot of what Gebels has written that doesn't sound like

4418
05:52:59,439 --> 05:53:01,919
his writing, and it's just what does they mean, Like,

4419
05:53:03,200 --> 05:53:06,200
you know, this guy will have any opportunities like that

4420
05:53:06,560 --> 05:53:12,840
seems tailored to kind of substantiate a charge of some

4421
05:53:13,040 --> 05:53:17,000
kind of subversive activity in the role of proxy of

4422
05:53:18,279 --> 05:53:21,159
an enemy element. Maybe I'm looking too much into this,

4423
05:53:21,360 --> 05:53:26,479
but I don't find it hard to believe that Gerbels

4424
05:53:26,919 --> 05:53:32,400
praised mostly he probably did directly in the presence of

4425
05:53:32,720 --> 05:53:38,279
somebody who then availed this hearsay to some British agents

4426
05:53:38,840 --> 05:53:44,840
or you know, it was recorded on some document that

4427
05:53:45,119 --> 05:53:50,119
was then appropriated and delivered to a you know, the

4428
05:53:50,240 --> 05:53:55,840
Home Office and intelligence branch or whatever. And this is

4429
05:53:55,919 --> 05:53:57,639
just kind of like what the way they decided to

4430
05:53:57,720 --> 05:54:02,439
paraphrase it and cross their verbal teas and dot their eyes.

4431
05:54:02,840 --> 05:54:08,200
But yeah, let me see what the time it is. Yeah,

4432
05:54:08,240 --> 05:54:08,840
I'll rap up.

4433
05:54:09,040 --> 05:54:11,680
Speaker 1: I think we're looking. I think we're looking at another episode.

4434
05:54:11,720 --> 05:54:13,360
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll wrap it up here in

4435
05:54:13,400 --> 05:54:15,319
a minute, and the next episode will deal with like

4436
05:54:15,360 --> 05:54:17,759
the British Free Court, because that's actually important. Then it's

4437
05:54:17,799 --> 05:54:20,400
like a good addendum to this. And but it's just cool,

4438
05:54:20,560 --> 05:54:26,360
like Britishers being it's just cool. I mean, I think

4439
05:54:26,400 --> 05:54:30,040
it's cool, but I'm sure people who were inclined to

4440
05:54:30,080 --> 05:54:37,279
listen will too. But there's also been a theory and

4441
05:54:39,240 --> 05:54:41,479
I don't know where David Irving fell on this. I

4442
05:54:42,279 --> 05:54:46,759
I tried to find it, but his God love Irving

4443
05:54:46,799 --> 05:54:50,159
as well as anybody in his orbit. But the uh,

4444
05:54:50,919 --> 05:54:57,000
other than his bookseller website for focal point publications. The

4445
05:54:57,119 --> 05:54:59,319
David Irving archive is like a mess. It's become like

4446
05:54:59,520 --> 05:55:03,799
a non navigable mess, which sucks. I really, if anybody

4447
05:55:03,880 --> 05:55:08,279
close to mister Irving is watching this, please salvage that

4448
05:55:08,439 --> 05:55:12,720
stuff and make it accessible in a coherent way. Because

4449
05:55:14,520 --> 05:55:17,759
God forbid mister Irving passes away, we're not gonna be

4450
05:55:17,759 --> 05:55:20,400
able to access that stuff, and it's gonna be wiped

4451
05:55:20,479 --> 05:55:28,840
from the cloud. But I digress. I think Gebels may

4452
05:55:29,040 --> 05:55:33,360
very well have been talking about Albert Arthur Albert Tester.

4453
05:55:36,000 --> 05:55:39,840
Arthur Albert Tester, he's referred to in a lot of

4454
05:55:40,639 --> 05:55:45,479
I five and six memorandum is doctor Tester. Tester was

4455
05:55:45,479 --> 05:55:51,000
the son of a British Foreign Office guy, a diplomat,

4456
05:55:52,400 --> 05:55:56,799
and he married a German woman, and his father was

4457
05:55:56,840 --> 05:56:01,759
the long serving console in Stuttgart, where Tester spent like

4458
05:56:01,880 --> 05:56:06,080
his early childhood and because that's where he learned to

4459
05:56:06,200 --> 05:56:09,639
speak both English and German. For the rest of his

4460
05:56:09,759 --> 05:56:13,680
life he spoke English with like a slate German accent. Okay.

4461
05:56:18,200 --> 05:56:22,400
When the First World War broke out, Tester was interned

4462
05:56:24,319 --> 05:56:30,040
in Germany as a British citizen. After that his life

4463
05:56:30,119 --> 05:56:34,959
kind of goes dark. But he was chased out of

4464
05:56:35,080 --> 05:56:40,680
France under suspicion of espionage for Germany. Then he ended

4465
05:56:40,759 --> 05:56:45,080
up in the UK in the thirties. He moved into

4466
05:56:45,119 --> 05:56:51,720
this like luxury penthouse apartment in London. He also had uh,

4467
05:56:52,560 --> 05:56:56,159
this like stately mansion on the sea, and like nobody

4468
05:56:56,200 --> 05:56:58,200
had any idea like where this guy got his money.

4469
05:56:58,639 --> 05:57:00,799
You know, it's like there's some pristige to like being

4470
05:57:00,880 --> 05:57:03,400
a diplomat like his father was. But those guys didn't

4471
05:57:03,439 --> 05:57:10,200
have money, you know. So early on Tester joined the

4472
05:57:10,279 --> 05:57:19,319
BUF and kind of before Joyce really became a force

4473
05:57:19,400 --> 05:57:26,319
within the British Union, Tester was advocating national socialism, you know,

4474
05:57:26,479 --> 05:57:31,040
he uh and he was basically he was translating a

4475
05:57:31,080 --> 05:57:38,279
lot of national socialist literature into English. His significance isn't

4476
05:57:38,319 --> 05:57:41,919
really clear. He claimed that like he was the mind

4477
05:57:42,040 --> 05:57:44,119
behind it. He said, yeah, Mosy was like a hard

4478
05:57:44,200 --> 05:57:47,400
man and a charismatic man, but I was the brains

4479
05:57:47,400 --> 05:57:50,880
behind the BUF, Like I wrote their propaganda. I was

4480
05:57:50,959 --> 05:57:54,360
the aid de camp of Moseley. I was the one

4481
05:57:54,439 --> 05:57:58,119
on the ground at Cable Street who rallied everybody. I mean,

4482
05:57:58,159 --> 05:58:02,000
the guy was like an egomaniac. Okay, so a lot

4483
05:58:02,080 --> 05:58:05,720
of this was probably cap and bullshit, but he did

4484
05:58:05,840 --> 05:58:10,400
play some role, and because he was rich as fuck

4485
05:58:11,000 --> 05:58:14,599
for reasons nobody could explain, you know, Suddenly when he

4486
05:58:14,759 --> 05:58:17,799
joined that's when like Mosley stopped being desperate for money

4487
05:58:17,840 --> 05:58:20,840
all the time. It's like obviously like he was throwing

4488
05:58:20,840 --> 05:58:29,319
a lot of his wealth into a buf Coffers and

4489
05:58:29,759 --> 05:58:33,240
Tester was also he was the only direct link to

4490
05:58:33,360 --> 05:58:38,560
the in in terms of a chain of money or information.

4491
05:58:39,000 --> 05:58:44,439
Early liaison with the German Reich, he founded uh, what

4492
05:58:44,639 --> 05:58:49,599
he called the European Press Agency, which was uh. He

4493
05:58:49,720 --> 05:58:52,959
held himself out as I'm just like an independent newspaperman,

4494
05:58:53,799 --> 05:58:57,880
but this was like a Reich propaganda apparatus. Like that's

4495
05:58:57,919 --> 05:59:01,479
not that, that's not pejorative that, but this is what

4496
05:59:01,560 --> 05:59:07,759
it was, Okay, and it's believed by a lot of

4497
05:59:07,880 --> 05:59:15,959
people like uh, you know, like revisionists and others that Okay, Yes,

4498
05:59:16,080 --> 05:59:18,919
Gebels made this statement, but he was talking about Tester,

4499
05:59:20,119 --> 05:59:22,639
you know, Like why why would Goebels just like randomly

4500
05:59:22,759 --> 05:59:26,599
mentioned Oswald Mosley, you conveniently when there's a need to

4501
05:59:26,759 --> 05:59:31,119
like identify some statement that can you know, kind of

4502
05:59:32,040 --> 05:59:36,680
sew up a charge under eighteen B. So take that

4503
05:59:36,799 --> 05:59:39,279
for what it's worth. I I accept that perspective. I

4504
05:59:39,319 --> 05:59:43,840
think Tester was the subject of the statement. But yeah, yeah,

4505
05:59:44,200 --> 05:59:47,799
I hope people are continuing to enjoy the series. And

4506
05:59:47,880 --> 05:59:50,520
we'll go one final episode in the British Free Corps

4507
05:59:50,520 --> 05:59:53,799
and that'll be a change of pace, but it's important

4508
05:59:53,880 --> 05:59:57,880
and it bears directly on on the fortunes of Mosley

4509
05:59:58,880 --> 06:00:00,000
for the remainder of his life.

4510
06:00:00,200 --> 06:00:05,119
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, that's what I got, right, cool plugs place.

4511
06:00:06,799 --> 06:00:11,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, the best place to find my work product is

4512
06:00:12,520 --> 06:00:17,520
on substack. It's a real Thomas seven seven seven at

4513
06:00:17,560 --> 06:00:20,680
substack dot com. At long last, I'm gonna upload the

4514
06:00:20,759 --> 06:00:24,119
movie that my dear friend Rake and I made this weekend.

4515
06:00:25,040 --> 06:00:30,000
I'm just sussing out the right platform. But regardless, even

4516
06:00:30,000 --> 06:00:31,639
if I got to put it on gum Road or something,

4517
06:00:31,680 --> 06:00:34,000
you'll be able to like link it from there or

4518
06:00:34,040 --> 06:00:38,360
I'll always tell you where it's at. My all on

4519
06:00:38,479 --> 06:00:42,479
social media is at Capital R E A L Underscore

4520
06:00:42,959 --> 06:00:45,919
number seven h O M A S seven seven seven

4521
06:00:46,000 --> 06:00:49,279
dot com and you can also search me into my

4522
06:00:49,400 --> 06:00:57,680
government name. I'm Thomas Sear and seeking you shall find. Yeah,

4523
06:00:57,799 --> 06:00:58,479
that's all I got.

4524
06:00:59,560 --> 06:01:04,400
Speaker 1: All right until episode seven. I want to welcome everyone

4525
06:01:04,479 --> 06:01:09,040
back to the Panana Show. Thomas is here and he's

4526
06:01:09,080 --> 06:01:13,400
going to finish up the series on Sir Oswald Mosely.

4527
06:01:13,639 --> 06:01:17,279
Speaker 2: So how are you doing, Thomas, I knowing, well, thanks

4528
06:01:17,319 --> 06:01:22,439
for hosting me, I if memory serves, and I reviewed

4529
06:01:24,479 --> 06:01:29,720
the brief outline I made last time to repress my recollection.

4530
06:01:30,279 --> 06:01:37,119
I think I ended talking about Lord Hahaw William Joyce

4531
06:01:37,560 --> 06:01:44,159
and his fate, his grim fate, and Oswald Mosley and

4532
06:01:44,439 --> 06:01:49,279
Lady Moseley being detained incidents of Defense Regulation eighteen B,

4533
06:01:50,919 --> 06:01:55,799
which Mosley could have made that into something of a

4534
06:01:55,880 --> 06:01:59,599
propagandic coup because there was sympathy for him, you know,

4535
06:02:00,240 --> 06:02:04,919
beyond the nine or ten thousand member cadre that were

4536
06:02:04,919 --> 06:02:08,080
sort of the hard core of the British Union of

4537
06:02:08,159 --> 06:02:12,880
fest I said peak they had about forty thousand members,

4538
06:02:13,000 --> 06:02:15,639
but about a quarter or a third of that was

4539
06:02:15,759 --> 06:02:23,119
kind of like the core vanguard. But and uh the uh,

4540
06:02:25,599 --> 06:02:27,560
there were a lot of people made a show of

4541
06:02:28,240 --> 06:02:31,360
demanding Moseley be detained. You know, like I said, there

4542
06:02:31,400 --> 06:02:34,159
was only about sixty five people who were detained under

4543
06:02:34,639 --> 06:02:38,200
Defense Regulation eighteen B. It was basically to target Mosey

4544
06:02:38,720 --> 06:02:43,400
as well as some of these society types because there

4545
06:02:43,439 --> 06:02:46,799
was there was grave concern and we'll get into this today,

4546
06:02:48,479 --> 06:02:52,000
and it's oblique to the main thrust of the subject

4547
06:02:52,040 --> 06:02:55,840
made their own a cover. There's grave concern, especially after

4548
06:02:56,080 --> 06:03:01,319
Edward the eighth and you know his uh friendly disposition

4549
06:03:02,159 --> 06:03:08,680
towards the German Reich and uh the Duke of Hamilton,

4550
06:03:09,080 --> 06:03:13,240
you know, who has had gone to visit I mean

4551
06:03:13,279 --> 06:03:15,000
I didn't. I was trying to be flippant. That's how

4552
06:03:15,080 --> 06:03:17,279
Monty python like when mister Hurst went to visit him,

4553
06:03:19,520 --> 06:03:22,080
the man has wanted to make contact with during his

4554
06:03:22,159 --> 06:03:27,319
ill fated flight to try and you know, reach a

4555
06:03:28,799 --> 06:03:37,759
peace concord with with the with the Anglo establishment. Hamilton

4556
06:03:37,959 --> 06:03:40,799
wasn't like a national solist or a fascist, but he'd

4557
06:03:40,840 --> 06:03:45,200
known Hess and he was an interesting guy. He was

4558
06:03:45,240 --> 06:03:49,159
an independent thinker. Like it made sense. I think has

4559
06:03:49,520 --> 06:03:51,400
had kind of had his head in the clouds. Okay,

4560
06:03:51,479 --> 06:03:53,479
I mean we got into that in our series on him.

4561
06:03:53,639 --> 06:04:02,040
But the point being it made sense that Hamilton would

4562
06:04:02,040 --> 06:04:04,680
be the man he wanted to make contact with. Long

4563
06:04:04,720 --> 06:04:07,840
sence of me had been. But there was concern that Hamilton,

4564
06:04:07,880 --> 06:04:14,360
Hamilton himself had been some compromised, which like his life

4565
06:04:14,479 --> 06:04:16,799
wasn't ruined or something, but I you know, these kinds

4566
06:04:16,799 --> 06:04:19,959
are rumors followed him and you know that that that

4567
06:04:20,080 --> 06:04:25,000
has ugly implications considering the the climate in the UK

4568
06:04:25,959 --> 06:04:29,639
as a whether it was a strategic ruse or not.

4569
06:04:30,040 --> 06:04:33,720
And I will die on that hill at one hundred

4570
06:04:33,720 --> 06:04:36,439
percent was a strategic ruse, the fact that Sea Lion

4571
06:04:36,639 --> 06:04:42,040
wasn't uh going to be a reality, and Hitler had

4572
06:04:42,080 --> 06:04:49,919
devised this elaborate you know, Ledgard Maine essentially to the

4573
06:04:50,040 --> 06:04:53,840
Steve Stalin. It had very little to do with you know,

4574
06:04:53,919 --> 06:04:58,319
what the British thought about it. Whether Churchill was exploiting that,

4575
06:04:58,720 --> 06:05:02,400
you know, to solidify as war mandate or you know,

4576
06:05:02,439 --> 06:05:04,680
in purely cynical terms, or if he believed that was

4577
06:05:04,759 --> 06:05:10,240
a possibility a scenario that would come to pass, I

4578
06:05:10,319 --> 06:05:14,119
don't know, but there's definitely some people in the War

4579
06:05:14,240 --> 06:05:20,319
Party who believed it absolutely and this stoke out of paranoia,

4580
06:05:20,959 --> 06:05:22,759
so they were trying there, They were instantly trying to

4581
06:05:22,799 --> 06:05:26,799
seek out people who they believed had been compromised and

4582
06:05:27,000 --> 06:05:31,919
an event of a massive German assault, these people supposedly

4583
06:05:32,000 --> 06:05:35,639
were going to collaborate with what was to become, you know,

4584
06:05:35,759 --> 06:05:39,959
a facist government and things. It all became kind of surreal.

4585
06:05:41,119 --> 06:05:45,599
You know. The old showed Dad's Army. For those familiar

4586
06:05:45,639 --> 06:05:49,319
with it, it's kind of a silly old show, but

4587
06:05:49,479 --> 06:05:52,439
it was actually pretty funny. But the subtext of it,

4588
06:05:52,639 --> 06:05:55,959
I think, and like you know, and ranted there, there's

4589
06:05:56,040 --> 06:05:58,200
kind of an opaque character to a lot of what

4590
06:05:58,400 --> 06:06:01,439
the to a lot of what the English should do.

4591
06:06:02,000 --> 06:06:08,799
But I don't think I'm reading sub sexual things into

4592
06:06:08,880 --> 06:06:12,319
it that aren't there or weren't there. But it kind

4593
06:06:12,360 --> 06:06:15,919
of casts the entire It kind of casts the entire

4594
06:06:16,040 --> 06:06:20,360
domestic climate is preposterous. You know. It's almost like the

4595
06:06:20,400 --> 06:06:23,119
old movie nineteen forty one, which is about the Battle

4596
06:06:23,159 --> 06:06:25,720
of Los Angeles. It's kind of in the same vein,

4597
06:06:26,360 --> 06:06:30,279
you know. So I think there was among people who

4598
06:06:30,319 --> 06:06:35,759
weren't taken in by the the propaganda, you know, I

4599
06:06:35,840 --> 06:06:38,200
think that there was a lot of people realize this

4600
06:06:38,319 --> 06:06:41,880
is ridiculous, but there was plenty that didn't. And plus

4601
06:06:41,919 --> 06:06:44,520
there's other people who absurd as any of you the

4602
06:06:44,720 --> 06:06:47,119
entire narrative, they just hate it as well. Mostley and

4603
06:06:47,200 --> 06:06:49,240
thought he was a bastard and wanted bad things to

4604
06:06:49,360 --> 06:06:55,599
happen to him. And the capacity for shout and freud

4605
06:06:55,840 --> 06:07:00,200
of the English is basically bottomless, you know. And that

4606
06:07:00,279 --> 06:07:04,319
had a lot to do with it, because it may though,

4607
06:07:05,279 --> 06:07:10,680
an important subtext to the entire story of British fascism

4608
06:07:12,159 --> 06:07:16,919
and uh kind of the last gasp of the the

4609
06:07:18,400 --> 06:07:25,479
Reich executive trying to cultivate some sort of concord with

4610
06:07:25,560 --> 06:07:32,840
at least some element of the British establishment was the

4611
06:07:32,959 --> 06:07:38,759
attempt to uh, the the the attempt to you know,

4612
06:07:38,919 --> 06:07:45,200
poach British Army volunteers from the ranks of POWs, you know.

4613
06:07:45,279 --> 06:07:49,000
And as people will remember, rib And Troup when he

4614
06:07:49,200 --> 06:07:52,840
was the ambassador of the United Kingdom, he considered it

4615
06:07:53,000 --> 06:07:57,599
his mission and a lot of this, you know, was

4616
06:07:57,680 --> 06:08:02,279
on the direct orders of the fure. But also Rivon

4617
06:08:02,319 --> 06:08:06,560
Tropp was very much a believing national socialist, and the

4618
06:08:06,680 --> 06:08:11,159
national socialist ambition was that there must be an alliance

4619
06:08:11,279 --> 06:08:13,759
with the United Kingdom, you know. And if you read

4620
06:08:15,000 --> 06:08:22,840
Hitler's second book, that becomes clear, and Brendan Simms books

4621
06:08:22,880 --> 06:08:27,599
on Hitler are the best other than John Tolin's biography.

4622
06:08:29,680 --> 06:08:34,360
There's a in terms of like pure biographical information and

4623
06:08:34,439 --> 06:08:37,119
kind of a glimpse into the subjective sort of psychic

4624
06:08:37,479 --> 06:08:42,000
tendencies of Hitler. You know, there's a there's guys like

4625
06:08:42,080 --> 06:08:47,560
a Just Sophie and like David Irving who who wrote

4626
06:08:47,599 --> 06:08:53,840
about Hitler as is warlord and that's fundamentally important. But

4627
06:08:54,400 --> 06:09:00,279
just in terms of kind of general biographical treatments, sims

4628
06:09:00,319 --> 06:09:02,479
of stuff is great and he gets into some of

4629
06:09:02,560 --> 06:09:05,919
that too. But you know, as a as a situation

4630
06:09:06,080 --> 06:09:13,319
deteriorated at the front, you know, uh, something Hitler spoke

4631
06:09:13,400 --> 06:09:19,119
of a lot and also elements within the Wehrmacht was

4632
06:09:20,639 --> 06:09:25,360
you know, our are the Western allies going to simply

4633
06:09:25,479 --> 06:09:29,840
let the Red Army overrun Europe? You know, that doesn't

4634
06:09:29,880 --> 06:09:32,959
seem like any that doesn't seem like something that would

4635
06:09:33,000 --> 06:09:37,599
gain any attraction with reasonable men either in the you

4636
06:09:37,680 --> 06:09:43,439
know what remains of you know, the patriotic element of

4637
06:09:43,520 --> 06:09:49,240
the American established man or the military, and a particular concern,

4638
06:09:49,680 --> 06:09:57,040
you know, if if if the Soviets reached Berlin, I mean,

4639
06:09:57,400 --> 06:09:59,680
the United Kingdom had a serious problem. I mean they

4640
06:09:59,720 --> 06:10:02,880
had a they had a serious problem anyway, because they

4641
06:10:04,000 --> 06:10:10,680
they essentially committed suicide in bargaining away the empire to

4642
06:10:11,439 --> 06:10:17,360
wage the war. So, you know, the reasoning in Berlin,

4643
06:10:17,959 --> 06:10:24,959
especially after Kursk, was well, there's got to be a

4644
06:10:25,040 --> 06:10:30,119
substantial portion of the body politic and the United Kingdom

4645
06:10:31,319 --> 06:10:36,520
that you know, is gravely concerned about the fact that

4646
06:10:37,439 --> 06:10:42,279
Communist victory seems imminent, you know. And so that wasn't

4647
06:10:42,799 --> 06:10:48,439
totally off base. So the idea was that these guys

4648
06:10:48,479 --> 06:10:51,080
who were to constitute what became the British Free Corps,

4649
06:10:51,479 --> 06:10:59,400
you know, the British national element of the vafan SS,

4650
06:11:02,880 --> 06:11:05,880
they would absolutely you know, they'd be guaranteed all these

4651
06:11:05,880 --> 06:11:08,159
men would receive a guarantee they would not be deployed

4652
06:11:08,240 --> 06:11:11,560
to fight against their own countrymen, you know, they'd be

4653
06:11:11,639 --> 06:11:16,360
deployed exclusively to the Eastern Front, and they'd sign an

4654
06:11:16,439 --> 06:11:21,720
oath that was an English you know, pledging their fealty

4655
06:11:21,919 --> 06:11:26,200
to Europe and Adolf Hitler but also to the UKA

4656
06:11:26,400 --> 06:11:29,560
to like resist the bullshitvism as like a European patriot,

4657
06:11:30,680 --> 06:11:33,639
you know. And the idea was like, well, you know,

4658
06:11:33,680 --> 06:11:36,400
if we can get even like a thousand or fifteen

4659
06:11:36,520 --> 06:11:43,599
hundred men, you know, and we can propagandize this extensively

4660
06:11:43,799 --> 06:11:48,319
of these Englishmen and Scots and Irish guys and Ulster

4661
06:11:48,479 --> 06:11:52,439
guys and Welshmen, you know, going into action against the Communists,

4662
06:11:53,000 --> 06:11:56,720
you know, under the swastika. You know, people back home

4663
06:11:56,799 --> 06:11:58,639
in the UK O, well have to wait a minute,

4664
06:11:58,759 --> 06:12:01,240
Like we're fighting the German when our boys are fighting

4665
06:12:01,279 --> 06:12:04,319
the Communists, we are trying to overrun Europe and would

4666
06:12:04,360 --> 06:12:07,240
probably slaughter us like they like they did the you know,

4667
06:12:08,560 --> 06:12:11,599
a quarter of the Russian population, you know, like I so,

4668
06:12:11,680 --> 06:12:14,119
I mean that it did. There was an internal logic

4669
06:12:14,240 --> 06:12:18,919
to it, you know, And this is really kind of

4670
06:12:18,919 --> 06:12:23,080
a brainshell too of a Gottlibburger. Gott lip Berger was

4671
06:12:23,119 --> 06:12:26,400
a really interesting guy, and he was actually the man

4672
06:12:26,439 --> 06:12:33,360
who intervened, uh when crazy old Oscar der Levanger was

4673
06:12:34,840 --> 06:12:37,759
you know, getting into all kinds of shit, I kind

4674
06:12:37,799 --> 06:12:43,720
of his alcoholism and you know, uh, it's just isn't

4675
06:12:43,720 --> 06:12:49,000
aside because there's a lot of people including that I

4676
06:12:49,040 --> 06:12:51,439
can't even remember his name. It's like this hysterical limey

4677
06:12:51,520 --> 06:12:54,720
who's always dropping third right content. But he goes into

4678
06:12:54,759 --> 06:12:57,360
these like he goes into these like history onic diet

4679
06:12:57,400 --> 06:12:59,639
tribes about how evil like the subjects of his like

4680
06:12:59,720 --> 06:13:04,080
little content tidbits are and he loves talking about how

4681
06:13:04,119 --> 06:13:07,319
like der Levanger was a quote child molister and a rapist.

4682
06:13:07,880 --> 06:13:10,159
Derla Vanger like a lot of military guys who can't

4683
06:13:10,159 --> 06:13:14,599
grow up like teenage. He liked teenage girls a lot,

4684
06:13:15,840 --> 06:13:19,080
so he'd carry on with fifteen, sixteen, seventeen year old

4685
06:13:19,159 --> 06:13:23,279
girls and he'd get caught doing it, and angry father

4686
06:13:23,400 --> 06:13:26,159
is a demand to go to jail, and finally the

4687
06:13:26,240 --> 06:13:29,799
Reich's like, you know what, we're tired of this shit.

4688
06:13:30,479 --> 06:13:32,360
I think you need to go to a concentration camp

4689
06:13:32,400 --> 06:13:34,880
for a while and think about like keeping it in

4690
06:13:34,959 --> 06:13:40,080
your pants. That's what happened. He doesn't hang around schoolyards

4691
06:13:40,159 --> 06:13:42,959
touching little kids. And I'm sorry, are you a creep

4692
06:13:43,040 --> 06:13:45,000
if you're like forty and you like kick it with

4693
06:13:45,080 --> 06:13:50,040
teenage girls? Yeah, Derlavanger was a creep. Okay, he was

4694
06:13:50,119 --> 06:13:54,479
not a child molester. That's retarded. But in any event,

4695
06:13:55,919 --> 06:14:01,360
Berger was his was his day one comrade from the

4696
06:14:01,400 --> 06:14:06,159
Great War, so he intervened to get him sprung from

4697
06:14:06,200 --> 06:14:13,119
the concentration camp. He basically convinced the Chance the right Chancery,

4698
06:14:13,599 --> 06:14:19,000
the party chancery, to like, look like, deploy der Levanger

4699
06:14:19,119 --> 06:14:22,240
to Spain, you know, let him lead part of the

4700
06:14:22,279 --> 06:14:25,279
ground element. If the bay if if like if the

4701
06:14:25,360 --> 06:14:30,520
krusty horny bastard survives, you know, he doesn't drink himself

4702
06:14:30,560 --> 06:14:33,880
to death or get blown away, like consider him redeemed.

4703
06:14:34,240 --> 06:14:37,159
So like that's exactly what happened in derla Wanger. Like

4704
06:14:37,680 --> 06:14:40,959
the guy the guy had like the guy had brass balls,

4705
06:14:41,799 --> 06:14:44,520
and so he then say he like led from the front.

4706
06:14:44,599 --> 06:14:49,639
He had he had like incredible incredible aptitude as as

4707
06:14:49,759 --> 06:14:54,840
like an infantry commander, like even when he became the

4708
06:14:55,080 --> 06:15:00,240
even when he became a standard fear you know, he

4709
06:15:00,360 --> 06:15:01,959
was still doing the same thing. And that's one of

4710
06:15:02,000 --> 06:15:05,479
the reasons why I comproup therle of Anger. Like you know,

4711
06:15:05,599 --> 06:15:07,240
these are very rough a men, to say the least.

4712
06:15:07,279 --> 06:15:10,360
The only reasons they respected him. But any event, gottlab Berger,

4713
06:15:10,599 --> 06:15:15,159
when he wasn't trying to get his uh his brind's

4714
06:15:15,240 --> 06:15:21,599
out of prison for their uh indiscretions, he's the guy

4715
06:15:21,759 --> 06:15:26,439
who really pushed hard with him. They're like, look, you've

4716
06:15:26,439 --> 06:15:29,400
gotta you've got to give up this sort of like

4717
06:15:29,639 --> 06:15:34,319
racial purity nonsense. Respective of He's like, yeah, we're not,

4718
06:15:35,119 --> 06:15:39,560
we're not gonna let you know, non Germanics enjoy the

4719
06:15:39,599 --> 06:15:44,080
full status of uh, of the Praetorian Guard, you know,

4720
06:15:44,159 --> 06:15:47,000
like our own people do. But like this idea that

4721
06:15:47,680 --> 06:15:51,080
we we can't have like non Europeans in our ranks

4722
06:15:51,720 --> 06:15:54,200
so long as they're not you know, our enemy, so

4723
06:15:54,240 --> 06:15:56,919
long as they're not Poles. So it's not Russians we'll

4724
06:15:56,919 --> 06:16:02,119
get into at some point, like the Russian elements and

4725
06:16:02,200 --> 06:16:05,520
the Ukrainian elements, because that's complicated. But it was Berger,

4726
06:16:05,599 --> 06:16:13,240
for example, who brought the the AxMan divisions in. It

4727
06:16:13,319 --> 06:16:15,599
was him who like advocated for the Moslem vaf and

4728
06:16:15,720 --> 06:16:19,840
SS troopers, and it was him who said, you've got

4729
06:16:19,959 --> 06:16:22,319
to try and get these British peod f used in

4730
06:16:22,360 --> 06:16:25,840
the vaf SS, you know. And at least his view

4731
06:16:25,959 --> 06:16:27,439
was at least some of them will go for it,

4732
06:16:29,040 --> 06:16:33,080
that's all we need. And the British army also had

4733
06:16:33,080 --> 06:16:37,159
a rep for professionalism. And obviously the guys the approach

4734
06:16:37,240 --> 06:16:39,639
with this were like combat soldiers. They weren't pogues, and

4735
06:16:39,759 --> 06:16:41,520
like pogues wouldn't have been in a position to get

4736
06:16:41,599 --> 06:16:47,000
captured anyway. But that's gottleib Berger's who, uh, it was

4737
06:16:47,080 --> 06:16:52,279
his brainschild, interestingly, and some person just from the Foreign

4738
06:16:52,319 --> 06:16:56,799
Ministry too, but I'll gay into that in a minute.

4739
06:16:57,560 --> 06:17:06,080
But the there was a and interestingly in the UK,

4740
06:17:06,439 --> 06:17:12,599
there was a there was rumors until after the war,

4741
06:17:13,959 --> 06:17:18,240
oh there being h like company sized elements and larger

4742
06:17:18,479 --> 06:17:24,959
like English POWs or British peows fighting in the vaf ss.

4743
06:17:25,240 --> 06:17:29,240
Uh that's not uh that, that's not the case. And

4744
06:17:29,360 --> 06:17:32,720
it never numbered more than you know, a few dozen

4745
06:17:33,520 --> 06:17:41,000
men at one time. But uh, initially the name for it,

4746
06:17:41,080 --> 06:17:46,200
it was floated, was uh, the British Legion, but there

4747
06:17:46,319 --> 06:17:49,959
was a there's a veterans organization in the UK. You know,

4748
06:17:49,959 --> 06:17:54,319
it's a counterpart to the American Legion called the British Legion.

4749
06:17:55,200 --> 06:17:57,040
Then the idea was floated to call it the Legion

4750
06:17:57,080 --> 06:17:59,840
of Saint George, but that was drops because it didn't

4751
06:17:59,840 --> 06:18:04,919
really resonate with the national socialist ideological culture. And you

4752
06:18:05,000 --> 06:18:08,240
know the Greeks, the Greek Orthodox in the Russian Orthodox,

4753
06:18:08,319 --> 06:18:10,720
they have the same patron saint. They would cause confusion

4754
06:18:11,759 --> 06:18:17,919
that they wanted something that had like a unique identitarian

4755
06:18:18,000 --> 06:18:24,759
significance to to Great Britain. Okay, so it was decided,

4756
06:18:25,000 --> 06:18:27,040
you know, to call it the British Free Corps, the

4757
06:18:27,080 --> 06:18:30,240
British Free Corps, you know, and for the first time

4758
06:18:30,400 --> 06:18:38,040
and in the r s H a documentation of it.

4759
06:18:38,919 --> 06:18:41,560
The name British Free Corps appears for the first time

4760
06:18:41,639 --> 06:18:47,159
in November nineteen forty three, and again it was in UH.

4761
06:18:47,400 --> 06:18:50,279
It was around May that the idea was first floated,

4762
06:18:50,680 --> 06:18:53,080
you know, and then again and the after we had

4763
06:18:53,080 --> 06:18:56,840
the curse it it became something that was promoted in

4764
06:18:56,959 --> 06:19:03,479
earnest And so first there was a there was a

4765
06:19:03,560 --> 06:19:13,520
special detachment under the authority of the SD specifically UH,

4766
06:19:15,840 --> 06:19:20,520
specifically charged with attempting to increase the recruitment of officers.

4767
06:19:23,279 --> 06:19:25,560
That was largely a failure. They were only able to

4768
06:19:25,680 --> 06:19:28,520
poach about six volunteers. And I mean this is essential

4769
06:19:28,639 --> 06:19:32,799
to the s. S said, these men have to be volunteers.

4770
06:19:32,880 --> 06:19:35,479
We can't press these guys into service. First of all,

4771
06:19:36,319 --> 06:19:38,959
we're probably just gonna get guys who are going to

4772
06:19:39,000 --> 06:19:40,959
try and food out of the program, and that's why

4773
06:19:41,000 --> 06:19:44,759
they're you know, because they're going to resent this. Secondly,

4774
06:19:44,919 --> 06:19:47,479
we actually want this to be a combat effective formation,

4775
06:19:48,319 --> 06:19:52,080
you know. And finally, the propaganda aspect was paramount. So

4776
06:19:52,840 --> 06:19:56,639
these guys had to be volunteers. And you know, looking forward,

4777
06:19:57,400 --> 06:20:03,520
obviously the idea was they'd allow their testimony to be

4778
06:20:03,639 --> 06:20:06,479
recorded in broadcast as you know, I'm a you know,

4779
06:20:06,520 --> 06:20:08,360
I'm an Englishman, or I'm a welsh Man, or I'm

4780
06:20:08,360 --> 06:20:14,319
a Scotsman, or I'm I'm an Ulsterman, and I you know,

4781
06:20:14,400 --> 06:20:17,319
I'm a patriot, but you know I also stand with

4782
06:20:17,479 --> 06:20:22,439
you know, the European race and again against Bolshevism. You know,

4783
06:20:26,159 --> 06:20:38,840
there's another dedicated detachment that was formed and charged with

4784
06:20:39,040 --> 06:20:50,599
the recruiting potential volunteers. It was Special Attachment five seventeen

4785
06:20:51,439 --> 06:20:56,880
and they identified around three hundred British pure wws who

4786
06:20:56,919 --> 06:20:59,439
were viewed to have like the physical and psychic and

4787
06:21:01,479 --> 06:21:06,560
aptitude you know, for for a combat role with the

4788
06:21:06,680 --> 06:21:10,599
VAF and SS, and who were viewed to have, you know,

4789
06:21:11,040 --> 06:21:16,560
either the political disposition that would compliment service there in

4790
06:21:17,040 --> 06:21:22,240
or you know, guys who were malleable enough or at

4791
06:21:22,319 --> 06:21:25,560
least open to the idea such that you know, they

4792
06:21:26,479 --> 06:21:32,360
they could be persuaded the UH as it's starting to

4793
06:21:32,400 --> 06:21:37,919
take shape, a kind of a kind of command structure

4794
06:21:38,000 --> 06:21:45,279
developed with Special Attachment five seventeen of British volunteers. There

4795
06:21:45,400 --> 06:21:50,639
was a handful of British Army and Royal Air Force

4796
06:21:50,799 --> 06:21:55,520
NCOs at about twenty enlisted men who kind of were

4797
06:21:55,560 --> 06:21:59,759
the first cadre of what was to become the British

4798
06:21:59,799 --> 06:22:10,080
Free Core as by the summer Narity forty three, as

4799
06:22:10,119 --> 06:22:15,439
this kind of core of original membership was identified and

4800
06:22:16,000 --> 06:22:21,759
and kind of corralled into this formal structure, you know,

4801
06:22:21,799 --> 06:22:27,959
they were they were given SS identification booklets and they

4802
06:22:28,000 --> 06:22:31,959
were put under the uh authority of the s S.

4803
06:22:32,400 --> 06:22:43,080
Help m D one department D one for context helped them.

4804
06:22:43,520 --> 06:22:45,159
Speaker 1: D one was.

4805
06:22:45,360 --> 06:22:50,880
Speaker 2: Uh. They were also responsible for the Germanic SS. These

4806
06:22:50,919 --> 06:22:55,040
are the guys who formed uh, the Algamine s S

4807
06:22:55,799 --> 06:23:01,720
in places like Denmark, Norway, the not Lands, you know,

4808
06:23:02,040 --> 06:23:09,799
any uh, any any Germanic country as per uh, you know,

4809
06:23:11,959 --> 06:23:15,560
cultural commonality and as well as you know, according to

4810
06:23:15,560 --> 06:23:21,159
the Nuremberg laws that defined uh who was an aryan

4811
06:23:22,520 --> 06:23:25,479
you know, that's that's what the Germanic SS was. And

4812
06:23:25,599 --> 06:23:28,799
from the Germanic SS, a lot of the national legions

4813
06:23:30,360 --> 06:23:33,279
you know, from these same countries. Uh, that's who they

4814
06:23:34,119 --> 06:23:38,159
That was the original population they drew upon for volunteers.

4815
06:23:39,240 --> 06:23:46,439
You know, by nineteen forty four, like right after the

4816
06:23:46,560 --> 06:23:51,200
New Year, you know, January nineteen forty four, the British

4817
06:23:51,279 --> 06:23:55,759
Free Corps, they were fully integrated into the ss like

4818
06:23:55,840 --> 06:24:00,720
they became like an official, you know, like SSAF element.

4819
06:24:02,200 --> 06:24:05,919
And at that point they were given they were given

4820
06:24:08,000 --> 06:24:14,119
field gray uniforms, you know, Comma fatigues, and they received

4821
06:24:14,240 --> 06:24:19,959
the the shield patch, you know, the the national insignia

4822
06:24:20,040 --> 06:24:22,919
that all like foreign volunteers got their's had the Union

4823
06:24:23,040 --> 06:24:31,520
jack you know, yeah, it's on my shirt here. The uh,

4824
06:24:34,119 --> 06:24:37,639
the national shield patch always went on the left arm,

4825
06:24:38,840 --> 06:24:43,319
and uh, their collar patch with a nod to Saint George.

4826
06:24:43,400 --> 06:24:45,599
It was three lions, you know, which is like the

4827
06:24:45,720 --> 06:24:51,919
standard of Saint George. By the end of the war,

4828
06:24:52,000 --> 06:24:55,680
when they were finally deployed, Uh, they also had a

4829
06:24:57,240 --> 06:25:02,919
they had a cuff title which uh it said it

4830
06:25:03,040 --> 06:25:06,400
right in German and English and British Free Corps, British

4831
06:25:06,439 --> 06:25:09,880
Free Corps and then British Free Corps, which is interesting.

4832
06:25:09,959 --> 06:25:14,360
Those are really hard to find. If if you're somebody

4833
06:25:14,400 --> 06:25:18,279
who seeks out authentic like Third Reich Militaria, if you

4834
06:25:18,360 --> 06:25:20,759
can find one of those and validated is authentic, like

4835
06:25:20,880 --> 06:25:24,959
you're you're very lucky and or you've got like very

4836
06:25:25,000 --> 06:25:32,599
good investigative shops because they're highly coved just because the

4837
06:25:32,639 --> 06:25:36,639
British Free Corps is cool and if you don't think so,

4838
06:25:36,880 --> 06:25:44,680
like I you're kind of lame. But the uh it's

4839
06:25:44,799 --> 06:25:47,119
and and some people make a lot of the fact too,

4840
06:25:47,279 --> 06:25:50,200
like the British Free Corps did have like really keeno uniforms.

4841
06:25:51,599 --> 06:25:54,799
There was other like national legions where it was like

4842
06:25:54,919 --> 06:25:59,799
more subdued, but who are really combat effective. So like

4843
06:26:00,479 --> 06:26:02,799
the claim is like, oh, this was just a propaganda

4844
06:26:03,799 --> 06:26:06,439
attempt at a propaganda coup, Like yeah, it was, but

4845
06:26:07,119 --> 06:26:09,799
that wasn't all it was. And the fact that didn't

4846
06:26:09,799 --> 06:26:12,040
make an impact on the battlefield, oh to kind of

4847
06:26:12,119 --> 06:26:17,080
like a conspiracy of circumstances. It wasn't because uh Dot

4848
06:26:17,240 --> 06:26:22,720
lob Berger and the SD and and Himmler himself and

4849
06:26:23,240 --> 06:26:25,799
and Carl Wolf. It's not because like they didn't have

4850
06:26:25,880 --> 06:26:29,560
some intention for it to be, you know, a combat

4851
06:26:29,680 --> 06:26:32,599
capable formation. The absolutely did. Like the fact they didn't

4852
06:26:32,639 --> 06:26:35,000
have the fact that it didn't happen, well, I mean

4853
06:26:35,080 --> 06:26:41,759
that you know, nobody denies that a large catalysts or

4854
06:26:41,840 --> 06:26:45,880
imminus for its creation was was propaganda. I mean that

4855
06:26:45,959 --> 06:26:49,880
goes out saying but there was there was any considerations

4856
06:26:49,919 --> 06:26:52,639
with respect to the UK and mayor was a prestige

4857
06:26:52,759 --> 06:26:57,560
that didn't exists elsewhere. And I mean for people thinks

4858
06:26:57,560 --> 06:26:59,680
it was like some returned pipe dream or something. I

4859
06:26:59,680 --> 06:27:03,040
don't know. Oh, okay, I mean it was. The final

4860
06:27:03,159 --> 06:27:05,959
defenders of Berlin were thirty third SS. They were a

4861
06:27:06,000 --> 06:27:09,639
much a Frenchman, Okay, I mean like this was not

4862
06:27:12,439 --> 06:27:16,880
SS was a Pan European army. And there were people

4863
06:27:17,080 --> 06:27:22,759
who whose nations were de facto or de juri at

4864
06:27:22,919 --> 06:27:26,639
war with the Reich, who you know, literally fought to

4865
06:27:26,680 --> 06:27:29,439
the last man to defend the German Reich. It was.

4866
06:27:29,639 --> 06:27:37,040
It's more complicated than court historians allow. I mentioned a

4867
06:27:37,119 --> 06:27:41,799
moment ago about the oath that British Free Corps volunteers signed.

4868
06:27:45,360 --> 06:27:50,880
The relevant language is quote, I you know the name

4869
06:27:50,919 --> 06:27:54,959
of the subject or volunteer, being a British subject, consider

4870
06:27:55,040 --> 06:27:57,680
it my duty to offer my services in the common

4871
06:27:57,799 --> 06:28:02,400
European struggle against communism, and hereby apply to enlist in

4872
06:28:02,439 --> 06:28:11,040
the British pre Corps, which is what I believe was

4873
06:28:11,080 --> 06:28:13,639
in the minds of most of these guys, you know,

4874
06:28:13,720 --> 06:28:17,599
I mean, it wasn't Being a prisoner and losing your

4875
06:28:17,639 --> 06:28:23,240
liberty is awful no matter what but British Army prisoners

4876
06:28:23,279 --> 06:28:30,279
and American POTWs until and until really night, you know,

4877
06:28:30,439 --> 06:28:36,639
end of forty four started forty five when the terror

4878
06:28:36,720 --> 06:28:40,240
bombing really took its toll and and people started lynching

4879
06:28:40,360 --> 06:28:45,799
down airman, British and American peodas were treated very well.

4880
06:28:47,080 --> 06:28:51,959
They were treated, uh, in line with the demands that

4881
06:28:52,000 --> 06:28:59,119
Geneva convention. You know. That's why. I mean obviously stuff

4882
06:28:59,119 --> 06:29:02,720
like Logan's hero was goofy, but I know the com

4883
06:29:02,840 --> 06:29:05,000
of refrain is people these days getting mad at that

4884
06:29:05,159 --> 06:29:07,759
show and can't believe it aired on prime time, or

4885
06:29:07,799 --> 06:29:09,840
they act like the Great Escape with some kind of

4886
06:29:09,919 --> 06:29:13,400
softball treatment. If you were if you were a Royal

4887
06:29:13,439 --> 06:29:17,319
Air Force uh pow, or like a US Army or

4888
06:29:17,400 --> 06:29:20,159
US Army ergo or pew, you weren't being tortured every day.

4889
06:29:20,240 --> 06:29:22,919
You weren't being thrown in doacaut like you weren't being

4890
06:29:23,040 --> 06:29:25,400
like whipped with a cat of nine tails like you

4891
06:29:25,479 --> 06:29:30,080
were being treated like POWs were always treated and according

4892
06:29:30,159 --> 06:29:34,279
to the you know, was Failian consensus. You know, so

4893
06:29:34,400 --> 06:29:37,840
like that wasn't weird that those kinds of settings that

4894
06:29:37,919 --> 06:29:40,639
you depicted in the light hearted stuff, you know, it

4895
06:29:43,080 --> 06:29:52,080
that's UH, that's important. The UH, the British Free Corps,

4896
06:29:52,840 --> 06:29:56,360
it had a kind of confused existence in terms of

4897
06:29:56,479 --> 06:29:59,880
what command it properly belonged to in part of the

4898
06:30:00,000 --> 06:30:06,959
because the situation was getting very critical. You know, this

4899
06:30:07,240 --> 06:30:12,840
was sixteen months before the Day of Defeat that it

4900
06:30:13,240 --> 06:30:20,240
finally was you know, validated, if you will, as as

4901
06:30:20,319 --> 06:30:31,840
a SS legion at there were some commanders and especially

4902
06:30:31,959 --> 06:30:36,319
later in the war, despite you know, the party and

4903
06:30:37,040 --> 06:30:41,599
the SS asserting itself against the Wehrmacht after the attempt

4904
06:30:41,720 --> 06:30:45,240
on Hitler's life, you had a lot of power if

4905
06:30:45,279 --> 06:30:50,720
you were the equivalent of a colonel or higher in

4906
06:30:50,840 --> 06:30:55,680
the Wehrmacht. You know, in the field, you were kind

4907
06:30:55,680 --> 06:31:00,360
of a law into yourself within reason. So when the

4908
06:31:00,439 --> 06:31:03,639
British Free Corps showed up UH and some of these

4909
06:31:03,799 --> 06:31:08,119
UH and some of these pans are element UH generals

4910
06:31:08,200 --> 06:31:14,279
or SS uh commanders were said like, okay, like you know,

4911
06:31:15,639 --> 06:31:19,279
these these British POWs are joining your command. Now. They

4912
06:31:19,360 --> 06:31:22,680
weren't handing it, you know, they were like, look like, uh,

4913
06:31:24,759 --> 06:31:28,560
this is gonna cause problems. And in the back of

4914
06:31:28,599 --> 06:31:30,599
their mind it was like, if we're gonna try and

4915
06:31:30,680 --> 06:31:33,959
negotiate some kind of peace with the Allies before the

4916
06:31:34,040 --> 06:31:37,919
Red Army burns it all down. If if it looks

4917
06:31:37,959 --> 06:31:42,319
like I'm ordering Englishmen to to go into combat, I

4918
06:31:42,919 --> 06:31:48,319
how how am I gonna explain that? You know? Uh, which,

4919
06:31:48,360 --> 06:31:50,799
on the one hand, uh, you could say is kind

4920
06:31:50,840 --> 06:31:55,200
of fucked up. But on the other hand, it's like, well,

4921
06:31:57,720 --> 06:32:04,400
any uh, any general officer who is commanding men in combat,

4922
06:32:05,200 --> 06:32:08,439
his job is to keep those men alive, you know,

4923
06:32:08,680 --> 06:32:10,840
and within reason, make sure as many of them get

4924
06:32:10,880 --> 06:32:13,720
to go home as possible. You know, that doesn't mean

4925
06:32:13,759 --> 06:32:21,040
you forfeit victory conditions to prioritize that humanistic aspect. But

4926
06:32:22,119 --> 06:32:26,319
if the war is lost anyway, and you know, accepting

4927
06:32:27,240 --> 06:32:30,319
these British puot fews into your command is going to

4928
06:32:30,400 --> 06:32:35,720
screw up the odds of you know, the collective fate

4929
06:32:35,880 --> 06:32:40,400
of the unit. You've got to consider that very seriously.

4930
06:32:42,040 --> 06:32:51,360
So there's that there's unsubstantiated rumors that have endured, and

4931
06:32:51,560 --> 06:32:55,680
some of this I believe to be true of after

4932
06:32:56,119 --> 06:32:58,560
the British Free Corps is all was for all practical

4933
06:32:58,599 --> 06:33:03,759
purposes disbanded individual members. There's people who claim that they

4934
06:33:03,919 --> 06:33:06,880
fought with them at Berlin, you know, like they were

4935
06:33:06,919 --> 06:33:09,680
attached at thirty third SS because they like showed up there,

4936
06:33:10,599 --> 06:33:15,000
or they were fighting with volks Therm, or they were

4937
06:33:15,119 --> 06:33:19,560
you know, you know some like older Englishmen, like older

4938
06:33:19,599 --> 06:33:22,360
I mean like of proper military age, was like leading

4939
06:33:22,439 --> 06:33:26,319
some hitler Ugen kids that try and help them break out.

4940
06:33:27,319 --> 06:33:29,880
I think at least some of that is true, because

4941
06:33:29,919 --> 06:33:33,520
some of these guys were never accounted for. And uh

4942
06:33:35,119 --> 06:33:37,840
if the Soviet I guarantee, if the Soviets had captured

4943
06:33:37,919 --> 06:33:40,759
or killed these guys, and the Soviets were obsessed with

4944
06:33:40,919 --> 06:33:44,439
documenting things, they would have made a big deal about it.

4945
06:33:45,200 --> 06:33:47,240
They would have been like, you know, oh, they the

4946
06:33:47,319 --> 06:33:50,319
capitalist English are turning against us now, you know, look

4947
06:33:50,400 --> 06:33:55,599
look at this, or you know, it would have it

4948
06:33:55,639 --> 06:34:01,799
would have really upset the Western allies. I mean not

4949
06:34:01,919 --> 06:34:04,400
for not not for moral reasons necessarily, but I mean

4950
06:34:04,520 --> 06:34:10,200
like it it would have caused uh consternation. You know,

4951
06:34:10,439 --> 06:34:14,159
uh if they if they'd come across these guys before

4952
06:34:14,200 --> 06:34:16,959
the Battle of Berlin and they'd been kia or captured,

4953
06:34:17,000 --> 06:34:19,639
this would have been kept a secret. And I mean

4954
06:34:19,720 --> 06:34:23,520
nobody was getting id'd that when Berlin got overrun, so

4955
06:34:23,560 --> 06:34:25,279
like who would have known after that? You know like

4956
06:34:25,400 --> 06:34:29,080
for decades after there was roles and roles at m

4957
06:34:29,159 --> 06:34:31,560
I A for zoom dead and like most a goodly

4958
06:34:31,680 --> 06:34:34,520
number of these people have never been identified. So that's

4959
06:34:34,520 --> 06:34:38,840
definitely not impossible. Okay, the numbers were talking about are

4960
06:34:38,840 --> 06:34:50,279
a few, but they there are some unaccounted for the UH.

4961
06:34:52,680 --> 06:34:58,919
This bring the case that John Amory and UH he

4962
06:34:59,119 --> 06:35:07,919
was executed by hanging expeditiously several months after the war

4963
06:35:08,119 --> 06:35:15,080
in the summer twenty ninth. And Amory we'll get into

4964
06:35:15,119 --> 06:35:20,040
who Amory wasn't a minute, because he plays a significant

4965
06:35:20,119 --> 06:35:25,639
role in UH, how this came to pass and the

4966
06:35:25,880 --> 06:35:34,040
entire enterprise of the British Free Corps. But such that

4967
06:35:34,520 --> 06:35:39,720
the documentation I could find about other British subjects, I

4968
06:35:39,799 --> 06:35:44,680
thought like, I'm not from the not not not from

4969
06:35:44,720 --> 06:35:53,880
the Empire. I mean, you know, like actual Britain's in

4970
06:35:53,959 --> 06:35:58,119
the When the Battle of France was underway, there were

4971
06:35:58,279 --> 06:36:03,759
seven British subjec said to be serving in UH various

4972
06:36:03,880 --> 06:36:09,840
units of the Totenkov Vimond, including in what became third

4973
06:36:09,959 --> 06:36:13,520
s S Totenkov. This is before the waff SS existed.

4974
06:36:18,520 --> 06:36:21,119
It's believed it's at least a handful who served in

4975
06:36:21,240 --> 06:36:26,680
leip Standart Adolf Hitler first s S and UH the

4976
06:36:26,919 --> 06:36:34,560
the UH the Propaganda and War Correspondent Unit uh Standart

4977
06:36:34,680 --> 06:36:40,759
Kurt Eggers. It's that's where James Manti served, you know,

4978
06:36:40,840 --> 06:36:48,919
the American defactor who joined the vaf S S. It's

4979
06:36:48,959 --> 06:36:51,680
also believed that there was two guys who might have

4980
06:36:51,759 --> 06:36:56,520
been deserters who UH served in the flat detachment of

4981
06:36:56,639 --> 06:37:02,959
LEIF Standard Adolf Hitler, both of whom are apparently awarded

4982
06:37:04,240 --> 06:37:11,400
the Iron Cross second Class. There's a book that hasn't

4983
06:37:11,439 --> 06:37:18,080
been translated about LEAP Standard, specifically the flat Detachment, that

4984
06:37:18,200 --> 06:37:20,680
apparently deals with these guys. I haven't had time to

4985
06:37:20,759 --> 06:37:25,000
dig that out yet and work on translating it as

4986
06:37:25,080 --> 06:37:27,520
much as I can to interpret what it actually says.

4987
06:37:28,680 --> 06:37:33,360
But the original FIX and British Free Corps cruise and

4988
06:37:33,479 --> 06:37:44,599
the guys most known to to the public. The guys

4989
06:37:44,639 --> 06:37:49,439
who achieved the most prominent I guess like infamy were

4990
06:37:49,799 --> 06:37:54,119
a guy named Thomas Haller Cooper and Frank McLarney. And

4991
06:37:54,279 --> 06:37:57,599
both of these guys were British Union of Fascist veterans

4992
06:37:58,560 --> 06:38:05,639
who apparently immediately upon you know, being offered opportunity to

4993
06:38:05,720 --> 06:38:08,439
join the British Free Corps did it, and they became

4994
06:38:08,479 --> 06:38:16,759
important in the effort to recruit more. And this really

4995
06:38:16,840 --> 06:38:22,360
came back to haunt Mosey because even though it's not

4996
06:38:22,520 --> 06:38:27,119
like there was a great number of uh British Union

4997
06:38:27,240 --> 06:38:33,560
veterans who joined up, there was enough that the narrative became, oh, well,

4998
06:38:33,799 --> 06:38:35,880
these guys were all a bunch of mosly Heites, and

4999
06:38:36,000 --> 06:38:38,240
look now they're not, you know, now now they're trying

5000
06:38:38,279 --> 06:38:43,880
to join the Third Reich. You know, this is one

5001
06:38:43,919 --> 06:38:46,159
of the things that really are on Moley's post war

5002
06:38:46,240 --> 06:38:50,799
political fortunes. I mean, I don't think I think Moseley's

5003
06:38:50,840 --> 06:38:55,639
moment kind of passed by then anyway. And uh, there's

5004
06:38:55,680 --> 06:38:58,279
a really good treatment of this. The seminal biography of

5005
06:38:58,319 --> 06:39:02,560
Francis Jacki is by Carrie Bolton. That was not saying.

5006
06:39:02,680 --> 06:39:09,360
But there's another biography from the late nineties which is

5007
06:39:09,439 --> 06:39:14,159
actually great in its own right. The end notes alone

5008
06:39:15,639 --> 06:39:21,240
or a treasure trove of valuable information for researchers. I

5009
06:39:21,360 --> 06:39:26,040
include myself in that category. It's by this guy named

5010
06:39:26,080 --> 06:39:30,279
Kevin Coogan, who was kind of this left wing anarchist

5011
06:39:30,400 --> 06:39:33,639
type guy from the Pacific Northwest. But the book was

5012
06:39:33,720 --> 06:39:41,360
remarkably balanced, and H. Keith Thompson contributed his testimony. Elsa DeWitt,

5013
06:39:41,520 --> 06:39:46,080
who is Yacki's longtime mistress, A bunch of guys who

5014
06:39:46,159 --> 06:39:51,040
knew James Hartung Medle, some contemporaries at George Sylvester Virick.

5015
06:39:51,319 --> 06:39:53,759
It's a fantastic book. It's called Dreamer of the Day.

5016
06:39:54,759 --> 06:39:59,919
But he gets into the rivalry between Yacki and Mos

5017
06:40:00,240 --> 06:40:04,479
and Mosey's efforts to sabotage Jacky's efforts, and the continents

5018
06:40:06,720 --> 06:40:12,439
in the aftermath of you know, the Day of Defeat,

5019
06:40:13,400 --> 06:40:16,720
and it doesn't cast Moseley in a particularly flattering light.

5020
06:40:17,799 --> 06:40:21,880
I mean, the historical record doesn't. It's not Hoogan's conceptual

5021
06:40:22,000 --> 06:40:29,360
predutice or something, but such that the British Free Corps

5022
06:40:32,599 --> 06:40:38,400
did see active service in March nineteen forty five, you know,

5023
06:40:38,560 --> 06:40:48,279
just weeks before the capitulation. There's an attachment of British

5024
06:40:48,319 --> 06:40:53,560
Free Corps volunteers who deployed with eleventh that says, which

5025
06:40:53,639 --> 06:41:01,119
was Nordland, which consisted primarily a Scandinavian volunteers. They were

5026
06:41:01,119 --> 06:41:03,720
attached to third S s. Pans Er Corps, which was

5027
06:41:03,840 --> 06:41:10,360
under Felix Steiner. Steiner was the commander of Viking fifth

5028
06:41:10,479 --> 06:41:15,880
s S and Nordland. There's a lot of membership in

5029
06:41:16,000 --> 06:41:22,000
common in terms of the ethnographic makeup, you know, Norwegian, Swedes, Danes,

5030
06:41:22,599 --> 06:41:33,400
some Finns, some folks to which these guys were. The

5031
06:41:33,520 --> 06:41:39,240
records such that they can be cobbled together and the

5032
06:41:39,400 --> 06:41:48,119
movements of these men identified with any clarity. They were

5033
06:41:48,159 --> 06:41:56,080
specifically sent to the reconnaissance battalion there was, which was

5034
06:41:56,159 --> 06:42:02,040
under the command of a Swede, Hans lost the Parson.

5035
06:42:05,000 --> 06:42:11,919
Their squad leader was an SS software Douglas Martin. His

5036
06:42:12,080 --> 06:42:20,159
alias was Hodge Richard W. Landvier, who is a great

5037
06:42:20,799 --> 06:42:27,080
documentarian of the VASS. He was involved with a lot

5038
06:42:27,119 --> 06:42:33,759
of veterans organizations into the nineties. You know who We're

5039
06:42:33,840 --> 06:42:39,560
producing a lot of material as a kind of counterweight

5040
06:42:39,759 --> 06:42:46,080
to what port historians were producing and whatever you think

5041
06:42:46,159 --> 06:42:53,119
of Richard Landvi, he had unpresidented access to veterans testimony

5042
06:42:54,240 --> 06:43:01,119
as well as records, personnel records, personal records of the

5043
06:43:01,200 --> 06:43:06,240
VAF and SS and and other things. He claims in

5044
06:43:06,319 --> 06:43:11,200
his book on the British Free Corps that the Britons

5045
06:43:11,240 --> 06:43:18,880
that were attached to the recon Battalion of eleventh a sash.

5046
06:43:18,919 --> 06:43:22,000
They ended up in the village at Schoenberg, which is

5047
06:43:22,040 --> 06:43:25,279
on the west bank of the Oder River. And presumably

5048
06:43:25,360 --> 06:43:28,000
these guys went into action against the Soviets because if

5049
06:43:28,000 --> 06:43:32,319
they were there, I mean they were coming under heavy assault. Okay.

5050
06:43:36,159 --> 06:43:47,919
In April, the entire Panzer Corps was moved Templon as UH,

5051
06:43:48,720 --> 06:43:53,639
you know, the long retreat continued. They were then assigned

5052
06:43:53,799 --> 06:44:02,159
to the Transport Company of UH Steiner's headquarters staff and

5053
06:44:02,319 --> 06:44:05,919
when Nordland Division left for Berlin, you know, the final

5054
06:44:06,159 --> 06:44:09,759
retreat to the capitol. As Berlin became a frontline city

5055
06:44:10,919 --> 06:44:18,119
as the Fear called it, the transport company went to Berlin,

5056
06:44:19,240 --> 06:44:26,919
and you know, British Free Corps elements included Steiner. By

5057
06:44:27,000 --> 06:44:40,000
April twenty ninth broke contact with the enemy. What remained

5058
06:44:40,080 --> 06:44:48,240
of UH, what remained of third Panzer was UH was

5059
06:44:48,360 --> 06:44:54,200
engaged UH contra the Red Army, and he did that

5060
06:44:54,279 --> 06:45:00,400
with the intention to try and surrender, know to the

5061
06:45:00,799 --> 06:45:06,279
to the Americans and or the English. Thomas hell Or

5062
06:45:06,360 --> 06:45:11,279
Cooper and Fred Croft, who are two members of the

5063
06:45:11,279 --> 06:45:16,959
British Free Corps with Steiner's transport company, they surrendered on

5064
06:45:17,000 --> 06:45:18,720
the second and May to the one hundred and twenty

5065
06:45:18,759 --> 06:45:23,080
first Imagery Regiment, the rest of them. It's entirely possible

5066
06:45:23,159 --> 06:45:27,680
these guys died fighting in Berlin, you know, because the

5067
06:45:28,240 --> 06:45:32,279
record puts them there for context of what I mentioned

5068
06:45:32,319 --> 06:45:35,319
earlier about these reports of some of these guys you know,

5069
06:45:36,400 --> 06:45:47,840
being in Berlin, you know, in the final days and hours. Okay,

5070
06:45:47,840 --> 06:45:54,439
we still got a few minutes. Kind of the roots

5071
06:45:54,479 --> 06:45:58,759
of this ultimately, you know, like I said, this was

5072
06:45:58,799 --> 06:46:01,880
the longest standing. This is derived out of a long

5073
06:46:01,959 --> 06:46:07,799
standing desire or recognition of the need or probably perhaps

5074
06:46:10,840 --> 06:46:15,400
of the fure his staff, the Foreign Ministry, elements of

5075
06:46:15,479 --> 06:46:19,080
the military and the SS you know, who understood that

5076
06:46:19,119 --> 06:46:20,520
there needs to be some kind of conquer with the

5077
06:46:20,639 --> 06:46:26,240
United Kingdom otherwise this grand ambition of national socialism is

5078
06:46:26,279 --> 06:46:34,479
not going to be realized. So early on, the Reich

5079
06:46:34,560 --> 06:46:41,840
Foreign Ministry, around nineteen forty two, they set up in Berlin,

5080
06:46:43,360 --> 06:46:49,319
they set up this kind of study group to try

5081
06:46:49,400 --> 06:46:55,840
and cultivate contact and build relations with dissident elements in

5082
06:46:55,880 --> 06:46:59,119
the UK or at least sympathetic elements to the Reich

5083
06:47:00,240 --> 06:47:03,599
against the Soviet Union and against the War Party then

5084
06:47:03,680 --> 06:47:09,279
led by Churchill, and specifically they wanted to cultivate guys

5085
06:47:09,400 --> 06:47:12,959
and women who were part of the establishment and preferably

5086
06:47:13,080 --> 06:47:21,840
part of the nobility. Some funds were given to the

5087
06:47:22,000 --> 06:47:28,119
Duke of Bedford, Edward Godfrey. He set up he and

5088
06:47:28,200 --> 06:47:31,119
he proceeded to set up the original British National Party,

5089
06:47:32,959 --> 06:47:35,919
which later you know, the B and P. As we know,

5090
06:47:36,040 --> 06:47:39,880
it was like John Tyndall's outfit, and then later like

5091
06:47:40,000 --> 06:47:41,880
Nick Griffin, who I think it's kind of a con man,

5092
06:47:43,919 --> 06:47:49,400
you know, became hancho that Obviously they were evoking the

5093
06:47:49,520 --> 06:47:52,119
legacy of the original BNP, but this had nothing to

5094
06:47:52,159 --> 06:47:55,599
do with them. This is this is something totally different,

5095
06:47:58,400 --> 06:48:01,759
This British National Party. They they gave this pressure group

5096
06:48:01,880 --> 06:48:09,200
demanding a settlement with Hitler, like a negotiated peace and

5097
06:48:09,799 --> 06:48:14,759
the War Party and specifically the Home Office. They they

5098
06:48:15,759 --> 06:48:18,279
they really freaked out. They're like, this is a revival

5099
06:48:18,400 --> 06:48:22,159
of the British Union of Fascists. This is a fifth column,

5100
06:48:23,000 --> 06:48:26,520
you know, these people are trying to overthrow the government.

5101
06:48:29,959 --> 06:48:42,959
And but it garnered for what it was, It garnered

5102
06:48:42,959 --> 06:48:49,319
a chorus sympathy beyond what people might think was possible,

5103
06:48:49,479 --> 06:48:55,639
especially consider that you know eighteen B as well as

5104
06:48:57,000 --> 06:49:00,639
the reformed trees in law which provided for, you know,

5105
06:49:00,840 --> 06:49:05,680
a mandatory death penalty for a very kind of loosely

5106
06:49:05,720 --> 06:49:11,319
defined range of conduct that it could be demonstrated that

5107
06:49:11,439 --> 06:49:16,880
provided aid and comfort to the enemy. You know. Obviously,

5108
06:49:17,000 --> 06:49:23,479
the hope of the Foreign Ministry and the s D

5109
06:49:23,880 --> 06:49:25,639
was that, you know, kind of like the nine or

5110
06:49:25,680 --> 06:49:30,759
ten thousand core members, that the US who were presumably

5111
06:49:30,880 --> 06:49:42,360
still active, would flock to this British National Party, you know,

5112
06:49:42,560 --> 06:49:48,599
and as Britain's fortunes continued to decline on the battlefield,

5113
06:49:50,000 --> 06:49:53,159
you know, this this would be sufficient the kind of

5114
06:49:53,200 --> 06:49:59,119
plant the seed that would ultimately bring down the War Party.

5115
06:49:59,560 --> 06:50:01,799
At it seems like a long shot, but you know,

5116
06:50:01,919 --> 06:50:04,520
like I said this, this actually did gain some traction,

5117
06:50:05,880 --> 06:50:11,599
much as it was blown out of proportion by the

5118
06:50:11,680 --> 06:50:23,119
Home Office. These guys also the British National Party they started,

5119
06:50:23,240 --> 06:50:32,560
they started a newspaper called The Patriot, which made headlines

5120
06:50:32,599 --> 06:50:37,759
by setting up a fund, an eighteen b Detainees Aid Fund,

5121
06:50:39,680 --> 06:50:43,560
you know, and this was in those days there was

5122
06:50:43,599 --> 06:50:47,560
still a pretty strong tradition and particularly among society types

5123
06:50:47,599 --> 06:50:51,040
of respecting civil liberties and stuff. A lot of people

5124
06:50:51,119 --> 06:50:53,919
were appalled at Mosley and some of these other guys

5125
06:50:54,240 --> 06:50:56,639
and women had been you know, in ceremon want to

5126
06:50:56,639 --> 06:51:02,200
sy locked up. They went amounted to a h you

5127
06:51:02,240 --> 06:51:05,159
know and what I'm on into a concentration camp for

5128
06:51:05,279 --> 06:51:13,360
indefinite duration. This was intended to become the nucleus of UH,

5129
06:51:16,080 --> 06:51:20,400
you know, a political movement. The Home Secretary in the

5130
06:51:20,479 --> 06:51:31,040
Wartime Coalition was Herbert Stanley Morrison, and he really agitated,

5131
06:51:31,240 --> 06:51:40,279
UH about the purported threat posed by this. He issued

5132
06:51:40,319 --> 06:51:48,159
a report that UH that December that UH claimed that

5133
06:51:48,720 --> 06:51:53,799
fascism in London was resurgent. You know that there's gonna

5134
06:51:53,799 --> 06:51:57,959
be imminent programs against Jews, that the threat of Sea

5135
06:51:58,000 --> 06:52:06,200
Lion has never abated. You know that there's a an

5136
06:52:06,279 --> 06:52:11,000
active fifth column within that's in direct contact with the enemy,

5137
06:52:11,319 --> 06:52:17,560
and they have social pedigree and that renders them untouchable

5138
06:52:18,439 --> 06:52:23,319
and we're all in grave danger. You know. In this

5139
06:52:24,639 --> 06:52:31,040
this environment really continued until until around nineteen forty four,

5140
06:52:34,319 --> 06:52:40,279
you know, when in a rare moment of clarity through

5141
06:52:40,319 --> 06:52:46,000
the haze of delusion and alcoholism and cynicism, Churchill basically said,

5142
06:52:46,080 --> 06:52:49,200
you've got to scale back on this, on this kind

5143
06:52:49,240 --> 06:52:55,919
of proppingando because it's gonna stoke sympathy for these people,

5144
06:52:57,959 --> 06:53:08,680
which was entirely correct the uh you know, and for

5145
06:53:08,799 --> 06:53:19,639
clarity too, because not a lots written about this by

5146
06:53:19,720 --> 06:53:25,400
the time the war was well underway. After the Wehrmacht

5147
06:53:25,520 --> 06:53:31,880
was halted at the Gates of Moscow, after America joined

5148
06:53:31,919 --> 06:53:40,279
the war in earnest Hitler in ninety forty two, he

5149
06:53:40,439 --> 06:53:45,799
met with Paul Otto Schmith, who had a lot of

5150
06:53:45,880 --> 06:53:49,439
cloud at the Foreign Ministry. He was an interpreter. He'd

5151
06:53:49,479 --> 06:53:52,240
been at one of the first World Economic Forums, I

5152
06:53:52,360 --> 06:53:56,680
think in nineteen thirty three, and he was fluent in French.

5153
06:53:57,240 --> 06:54:00,479
When Hitler had to talk to Antonescu, who ironic they were.

5154
06:54:00,680 --> 06:54:04,159
They were close friends and and anton Escu was Hitler's

5155
06:54:04,240 --> 06:54:07,799
best all I like, he wasn't as personally close to

5156
06:54:07,880 --> 06:54:11,000
him as he was the Mussolini, but Antonescu was definitely

5157
06:54:11,119 --> 06:54:15,119
Hitler's best military ali and they had a great mutual respect.

5158
06:54:15,319 --> 06:54:19,599
But Hitler didn't speak Romania and Antonescu didn't speak German,

5159
06:54:19,759 --> 06:54:24,759
but Uh Antonescu spoke French, so like Hitler would Uh

5160
06:54:25,680 --> 06:54:30,040
Schmidt would translate. And Schmid didn't speak Romanian either, but

5161
06:54:30,119 --> 06:54:32,360
he was fluent in French and English as well as

5162
06:54:32,400 --> 06:54:35,680
the slew of other languages, so Paul out of Schmidt

5163
06:54:35,840 --> 06:54:40,759
would interpret for the Furre and then relay in French

5164
06:54:40,799 --> 06:54:43,360
to Antonescu, who then answer in French. Then Schmid would

5165
06:54:43,360 --> 06:54:49,720
really back in German. But uh, Schmidt uh headed up

5166
06:54:49,799 --> 06:54:54,279
the the England Committee, you know, to try and as

5167
06:54:54,319 --> 06:54:57,360
as I mentioned a minute ago, to try and cultivate

5168
06:54:59,040 --> 06:55:00,520
you know, and a in a lie, it's with a

5169
06:55:02,200 --> 06:55:12,400
sympathetic cadre among British society types. And you know Hitler's uh,

5170
06:55:16,279 --> 06:55:21,880
you know, and what Hitler said, and Hitler privately told Borman,

5171
06:55:22,200 --> 06:55:24,759
you know, like kind of unpleasant of a character as

5172
06:55:24,840 --> 06:55:30,560
Borman was. There's a reason why, you know, he he

5173
06:55:30,680 --> 06:55:39,439
took on Hess's role as essentially party secretary and gatekeeper

5174
06:55:39,840 --> 06:55:42,639
of access to the fear, and Hitler confided them a

5175
06:55:42,720 --> 06:55:51,119
fair amount. And uh, you know, Hitler said in early

5176
06:55:51,200 --> 06:55:55,840
nineteen forty two, he said it, you know, he said,

5177
06:55:55,880 --> 06:56:00,159
it's definitely possible that Churchill will fall, and he's we

5178
06:56:00,240 --> 06:56:03,599
need to do everything we can to facilitate that. But he's,

5179
06:56:03,720 --> 06:56:06,439
you know, he said, it's not going to accomplish anything

5180
06:56:06,639 --> 06:56:11,000
unless you know, we have quote men like Moseley in

5181
06:56:11,119 --> 06:56:15,639
reserve and a cadre around them. Hitler said, quote, when

5182
06:56:15,639 --> 06:56:18,240
I think that Mosley and more than nine thousand his supporters,

5183
06:56:19,279 --> 06:56:22,479
including some belong to the Best Families, are facing prison

5184
06:56:22,759 --> 06:56:25,680
because they didn't want this war, you know, he said

5185
06:56:25,759 --> 06:56:29,200
that that's unconsfortable, but also we can use that in

5186
06:56:29,279 --> 06:56:33,439
our favor, you know. But he said, it's essential that

5187
06:56:34,159 --> 06:56:38,759
we cultivate this cadre. It's not enough to just kind of,

5188
06:56:39,439 --> 06:56:44,119
you know, for some sort of return of veterans from

5189
06:56:44,159 --> 06:56:47,720
the McDonald, the Ramsey McDonald government and the National Coalition,

5190
06:56:47,959 --> 06:56:50,400
you know, bringing down Churchill because the war is a disaster,

5191
06:56:51,200 --> 06:56:55,680
you know, we because there's no guarantee there, like we

5192
06:56:55,759 --> 06:56:59,119
need an alliance, you know, we need people are ideologically committed,

5193
06:57:00,080 --> 06:57:03,840
which was absolutely correct, you know, in terms of what

5194
06:57:04,639 --> 06:57:07,319
the Rey had to pull off, I mean, which, yes,

5195
06:57:07,439 --> 06:57:12,240
that was a complete long shot. And Hitler made manch

5196
06:57:12,279 --> 06:57:14,200
and he said that like we need a Cromwell, which

5197
06:57:14,240 --> 06:57:18,680
is really interesting and uh, I mean Hitler obviously had

5198
06:57:18,680 --> 06:57:26,080
read his Carlisle, but that was uh, that was the

5199
06:57:26,159 --> 06:57:30,040
climate and yeah, that's uh, I guess I could stop there. Yeah,

5200
06:57:30,159 --> 06:57:32,560
all of that was a new scatter shot. That's essentially

5201
06:57:32,639 --> 06:57:35,599
the story of the British Free Corps. It's it's hard

5202
06:57:35,639 --> 06:57:37,560
to piece together. Like I said, I think i'm I

5203
06:57:37,599 --> 06:57:40,240
think I got better research shops than many men. But uh,

5204
06:57:40,959 --> 06:57:45,400
it's an esoteric topic. Uh there's a lot of like

5205
06:57:45,479 --> 06:57:47,799
kind of lurid stuff written about it in the seventies.

5206
06:57:48,080 --> 06:57:50,759
Like there's this paperback on the seventy seven called Hitler's

5207
06:57:50,840 --> 06:57:54,400
Jackals I got in somewhere here. It's just like crazy,

5208
06:57:54,439 --> 06:57:58,279
there's like no citations. It's this crazy stuff. It's you know,

5209
06:57:58,400 --> 06:58:04,720
it's like something out of uh some grindhouse Nazi spolitation movie.

5210
06:58:04,959 --> 06:58:06,840
And don't gonna be wrong, I like that kind of stuff,

5211
06:58:06,919 --> 06:58:11,040
but it does not help if we're trying to identify

5212
06:58:11,919 --> 06:58:14,560
you know, Fax and the historical record. So this is

5213
06:58:14,599 --> 06:58:16,759
what I could put together, because this topic is like

5214
06:58:16,840 --> 06:58:20,680
a pet kind of obsession of mine, like many esoteric things.

5215
06:58:22,599 --> 06:58:27,000
So yeah, I unless people are really truly thirsty for

5216
06:58:27,119 --> 06:58:29,560
more Oswald Mosley or I have like questions they want

5217
06:58:29,599 --> 06:58:32,799
me to cover or clarify, I think we can move

5218
06:58:32,880 --> 06:58:37,720
on from Oswald Movesley and the British Free Corps.

5219
06:58:38,159 --> 06:58:43,840
Speaker 1: Question about the American and the British press, how much

5220
06:58:43,919 --> 06:58:46,520
were they how much during the war were they reporting

5221
06:58:46,840 --> 06:58:53,360
on the how international the German army was.

5222
06:58:56,880 --> 06:59:03,880
Speaker 2: It's hard to say everything in the United States, anything, uh,

5223
06:59:04,439 --> 06:59:07,159
that the press wanted to cover relating to the war,

5224
06:59:07,520 --> 06:59:09,400
it had to go through the o w Y the

5225
06:59:09,479 --> 06:59:15,240
opposite of war information, you know, and they had you know,

5226
06:59:15,319 --> 06:59:20,439
they they wouldn't allow photographs and dead Americans to be shown.

5227
06:59:21,279 --> 06:59:24,279
And when somebody, when somebody snuck some through, that was

5228
06:59:24,360 --> 06:59:29,959
a huge deal. And uh, it was odd like what

5229
06:59:30,080 --> 06:59:32,880
they objected to and what they didn't, but the consistent,

5230
06:59:33,159 --> 06:59:38,520
uh got the consistent pattern the way they cast the Germans.

5231
06:59:38,599 --> 06:59:42,680
And part of this ode part of this to the

5232
06:59:43,200 --> 06:59:46,720
delegate situation of like having to negotiate with Darlan and

5233
06:59:46,840 --> 06:59:49,639
like North Africa, who wasn't actually who was a fascist?

5234
06:59:51,119 --> 06:59:53,799
They kind of had to pretend that this is the

5235
06:59:53,959 --> 06:59:58,560
German army, you know, and yeah, there's some turncoat volunteers

5236
06:59:58,680 --> 07:00:02,799
helping the SS, but these are the Hans just oppressing everybody.

5237
07:00:03,759 --> 07:00:11,159
You know. There was kind of without the omissions of

5238
07:00:11,319 --> 07:00:13,720
the fact that this was a there was a million

5239
07:00:13,840 --> 07:00:18,720
non Germans under arms. Like the omission of that from

5240
07:00:18,799 --> 07:00:22,439
what was being reported kind of speaks for itself, you know,

5241
07:00:22,520 --> 07:00:27,560
Like in the case of in the case of UK propaganda,

5242
07:00:29,240 --> 07:00:32,479
it's a bit more nuanced, but I mean a lot

5243
07:00:32,560 --> 07:00:38,799
of there's prejudices in Britain against you know, like during

5244
07:00:38,880 --> 07:00:42,680
World War One, despite the fact that like Bismarcky in Germany,

5245
07:00:42,919 --> 07:00:46,080
which Veilhelm in Germany was very much the legacy of

5246
07:00:46,959 --> 07:00:50,240
and Velhelm's wife wouldn't even like Catholics in their house.

5247
07:00:50,759 --> 07:00:53,680
But they're trying to kind of cast like the Hans

5248
07:00:53,720 --> 07:00:56,840
in World War One is like these retro grade, like

5249
07:00:57,119 --> 07:01:03,240
Catholic brutes, you know, who are you know, they they

5250
07:01:03,520 --> 07:01:06,759
they're they're they're not in the modern age like like

5251
07:01:06,880 --> 07:01:09,720
civilized people are. And there was some aspect of that,

5252
07:01:10,799 --> 07:01:13,759
you know, kind of caricaturing, like the fun is sort

5253
07:01:13,799 --> 07:01:17,880
of like the stand in for like European barbarism. But

5254
07:01:18,240 --> 07:01:21,360
uh yeah, and stuff that went to the O W Y.

5255
07:01:21,720 --> 07:01:25,319
You never saw like any statement of like you know, yeah,

5256
07:01:25,360 --> 07:01:28,520
there's like a bunch of you know, there's there's there's

5257
07:01:28,520 --> 07:01:31,720
a bunch of Kazakhs and Romanians and Italians and Frenchmen

5258
07:01:31,840 --> 07:01:35,200
and Norwegians, you know, like engaging the US army right now.

5259
07:01:35,279 --> 07:01:38,479
Speaker 1: There was like none of that, Not to mention the

5260
07:01:38,560 --> 07:01:43,159
French that were the first to engage the the American forces.

5261
07:01:43,959 --> 07:01:46,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, on avation tours. Yeah, exactly, they were just like

5262
07:01:46,959 --> 07:01:47,799
Nazi forces.

5263
07:01:48,439 --> 07:01:53,119
Speaker 1: All right, Well, if people want to do a Q

5264
07:01:53,360 --> 07:01:56,200
and A, we'll see what kind of questions. I'll throw

5265
07:01:56,240 --> 07:01:58,240
it out there for people to let questions roll in

5266
07:01:59,000 --> 07:02:01,479
and if there's enough, if there's enough, we can get

5267
07:02:01,560 --> 07:02:05,080
Q and A. But yeah, otherwise we'll move on from

5268
07:02:05,159 --> 07:02:07,959
this as I think it was a great topic and like,

5269
07:02:08,319 --> 07:02:11,479
we didn't expect this to go seven episodes, but uh,

5270
07:02:11,720 --> 07:02:15,840
but it Yeah, but it's perfectly fine. I think we

5271
07:02:15,919 --> 07:02:18,279
had enough comments of people saying, yeah, I'm glad it

5272
07:02:18,360 --> 07:02:22,759
did so, yeah, just do plugs real quick and one.

5273
07:02:23,959 --> 07:02:29,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. My substacts real Thomas seven seven seven,

5274
07:02:29,880 --> 07:02:34,360
that's substack dot com. That's my main platform. And I

5275
07:02:34,479 --> 07:02:37,560
am a long last like uploading the the movie that

5276
07:02:37,959 --> 07:02:42,360
my friend and I made the first Thomas TV like

5277
07:02:42,479 --> 07:02:46,360
properly episode. You know, it's a couple of hours long.

5278
07:02:48,000 --> 07:02:50,000
I had to figure out the best way to monetize it.

5279
07:02:50,840 --> 07:02:53,599
I'll explain, and I promise I will upload it this weekend.

5280
07:02:54,200 --> 07:02:58,159
There was a couple of delays and I'm dealing with

5281
07:02:58,279 --> 07:03:01,319
like identity. The bullshit now like my business bank account.

5282
07:03:01,479 --> 07:03:03,880
I shouted this out on a sit rep on substate,

5283
07:03:04,639 --> 07:03:07,200
which is nobody's problem but my own, and I'm indemnified.

5284
07:03:07,240 --> 07:03:11,319
It will be fine. It's just a hassle. And obviously

5285
07:03:11,400 --> 07:03:14,799
because it's my business account, I can't like link anything

5286
07:03:14,840 --> 07:03:19,000
to it until it bullshit gets resolved. So but it's common,

5287
07:03:19,080 --> 07:03:24,400
I promise. Thanks for being patient. And on social media,

5288
07:03:26,840 --> 07:03:32,759
my alt is at Capital Ril Underscore number seven h

5289
07:03:32,759 --> 07:03:36,400
oom as seven seven seven, and that's where you can

5290
07:03:36,479 --> 07:03:38,799
find me or he concerts me under my garment name

5291
07:03:38,919 --> 07:03:40,639
and I will come up.

5292
07:03:41,400 --> 07:03:44,560
Speaker 1: Till the next subject. Thank you so much, man, take care.

5293
07:03:46,200 --> 07:03:47,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're welcome. Thanks for hosting me. Man