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<v Speaker 1>What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up

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<v Speaker 1>where he left off with Kathy Rumler and her transcribed

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<v Speaker 1>interview with Congress. Question during your relationship with mister Ebstein,

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<v Speaker 1>was there any point in time where you communicated with

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<v Speaker 1>him more frequently? Answer? I think that I communicated. I

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<v Speaker 1>haven't done an analysis of that, but certainly during the

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<v Speaker 1>first couple of years that I knew him, when I

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<v Speaker 1>was actively working on the wroth Child representation, and again,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, he was primary advisor, so he was sort of,

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<v Speaker 1>if you think about it, he was sort of the

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<v Speaker 1>primary relationship conduit, and I was sort of the secondary,

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<v Speaker 1>if you will. And over time I developed an independent

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<v Speaker 1>relationship with the bank and the client, but you know,

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<v Speaker 1>he was always there in the later years. In the

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<v Speaker 1>later years, my recollection is that I became less responsive

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<v Speaker 1>because he became pushier and I had an independent relationship

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<v Speaker 1>with the Rothchild client at that point, and I was

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<v Speaker 1>busy doing a lot of otherly work. Question At any

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<v Speaker 1>point during your association with mister Epstein, would you consider

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<v Speaker 1>him to be a friend? Answer? I considered him. I

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<v Speaker 1>was friendly with him, but I considered my relationship with

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<v Speaker 1>him to be based on the fact that I was

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<v Speaker 1>a lawyer in private practice, and if I hadn't been

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<v Speaker 1>a lawyer in private practice, I would have no reason

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<v Speaker 1>to deal with him, and he would have had no

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<v Speaker 1>reason to deal with me. Question, and you've referred in

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<v Speaker 1>emails released by the Department of Justice, you've referred to

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<v Speaker 1>mister Epstein as sweety older brother uncle Jeffrey. Was your

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<v Speaker 1>relationship ever romantic with Epstein? Answer absolutely not. Question did

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<v Speaker 1>you ever have a sexual relationship with mister Epstein? Answer

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<v Speaker 1>absolutely not. Question. If there wasn't a romantic relationship, why

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<v Speaker 1>did you refer to him in these terms? Answer? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>we can take them one by one if you like.

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<v Speaker 1>Question Okay, So the first one I mentioned was Sweetie.

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<v Speaker 1>Answer yeah, So the context I remember there's an email

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<v Speaker 1>in which I call him sweet The context of that

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<v Speaker 1>is that he sent me an email comparing his prior

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<v Speaker 1>criminal conduct to the conduct that had been alleged publicly

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<v Speaker 1>right around the time against Harvey Weinstein, and he said

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<v Speaker 1>something to the effect of my conduct was money in

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<v Speaker 1>exchange for sex. This guy was dangling jobs over people,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, basically pretending as if again, this is

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<v Speaker 1>his reference. I'm paraphrasing, but this is what I understood

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<v Speaker 1>him to be saying, and is not very grammatically correct.

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<v Speaker 1>Email to me, Okay, that Harvey Weinstein, like what's being

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<v Speaker 1>said about him is really bad because these were women

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<v Speaker 1>who were coming forward and saying he was sort of

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<v Speaker 1>dangling these opportunities to be in movies and young actresses,

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<v Speaker 1>and he was deceptive. It was this element of like deceptiveness,

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<v Speaker 1>and he was using his power within the movie industry

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<v Speaker 1>to sort of coerce or assault, you know, assault women.

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<v Speaker 1>But by contrast, all I did was pay for sex,

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<v Speaker 1>and this was just kind of strictly a commercial transaction

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<v Speaker 1>and everybody was consenting, and so what I did wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>so bad. And so I responded, and I said in

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<v Speaker 1>a very in a way that was designed to tell

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<v Speaker 1>someone something that they didn't want to hear, in a

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<v Speaker 1>patronizing way. The court reporter is not going to get this.

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<v Speaker 1>But my tone was sweetie, like I was patting him

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<v Speaker 1>on the head. Hey, sweety, your conduct involved abusive power too,

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<v Speaker 1>So it was far from an indication of affection. It

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<v Speaker 1>was me speaking to him and correcting him from trying

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<v Speaker 1>to minimize his own prior criminal history against mister Weinstein's.

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<v Speaker 1>And I said it in a way over email that

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<v Speaker 1>was designed to make the medicine go down a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit easier. Question understood, thank you for that. The next

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<v Speaker 1>term I mentioned was older brother. Answer. Yeah, So that

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<v Speaker 1>was an email that I sent to his executive assistant

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<v Speaker 1>at the time that I sent it, that I used

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<v Speaker 1>those words. I didn't know Epstein. I'd only known him

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<v Speaker 1>for a couple of months. He'd referred as I said,

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<v Speaker 1>he referred to this important client to me, and it

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<v Speaker 1>was a big matter. It was a good matter. We

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<v Speaker 1>did great work for that for that bank. And I

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<v Speaker 1>was traveling, i think for the first time as my

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<v Speaker 1>record election, from New York to Geneva, which is where

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<v Speaker 1>the bank was based, and again he was the primary advisor.

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<v Speaker 1>And if I'm recalling this email correctly, he asked for

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<v Speaker 1>his executive assistant to upgrade me on the flight. And

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<v Speaker 1>I said, or it was something other or some other

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<v Speaker 1>thing that he was asking it was something involving my

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<v Speaker 1>flying to Geneva. Or he was asking his executive assistant

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<v Speaker 1>to do for me and to show my appreciation, which

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<v Speaker 1>again I didn't ask for. I didn't need it. He

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<v Speaker 1>knew I was traveling there because he had this primary

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<v Speaker 1>advisory relationship with the client. And I was saying, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>he doesn't really need to do this, and she was like, no,

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<v Speaker 1>he just wants to be nice, and I was like, oh, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>And I think it was something like I adore him.

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<v Speaker 1>He's like my older brother. Again, I didn't need any

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<v Speaker 1>of those things from him. What I thought at the

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<v Speaker 1>time was that he was being nice. This was insignificant

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<v Speaker 1>to him in terms of value. I wasn't paying for

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<v Speaker 1>the flight anyway, because it was a business trip. And

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<v Speaker 1>that was the context in which I made that reference question.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you for that explanation. And the third term I

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned to you was uncle Jeffrey. Answer. Yes, so, mister Epstein,

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<v Speaker 1>as I said a few minutes ago, he was extremely arrogant.

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<v Speaker 1>He was a man's plainer. He was pushy, he was

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<v Speaker 1>a buncular and as a joke and frankly to poke

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<v Speaker 1>fun at those qualities. You know, again, at this point

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<v Speaker 1>in time, you know, it's ten years ago, twelve years ago.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, you know, my early forties, I'm a relatively

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<v Speaker 1>accomplished professional, okay, and he's constantly offering me all sorts

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<v Speaker 1>of unsolicited advice, you know, about the way I about

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<v Speaker 1>how a whole host of things that even frankly he

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<v Speaker 1>really didn't know much about that didn't stop him from

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<v Speaker 1>offering opinions. And in that context, I think it was

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<v Speaker 1>response to, you know, again, something that he had sent me,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, as a gift, and I sort of in

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<v Speaker 1>a teasing way, referred to him, you know, as uncle Jeffrey,

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<v Speaker 1>in a way not to be to sort of call

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<v Speaker 1>him out for the way that he could be quite patronizing.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, we all sometimes have relatives like that, and

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<v Speaker 1>that's what I'm meant. Question and then did mister Epstein

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<v Speaker 1>ever meet any of your family members? Answer? No question.

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<v Speaker 1>Are you aware of mister Epstein having children of his own?

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<v Speaker 1>Answer not that I'm aware of. Question Apart from your

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<v Speaker 1>in person meetings with mister Epstein that you mentioned, did

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<v Speaker 1>you ever socialize with them in any other context, Miss Rumner,

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<v Speaker 1>No question by mister Grant. And you mentioned that the

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<v Speaker 1>relationship ended in July of twenty nineteen. Answer yes, question

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<v Speaker 1>when was the last time you communicated with mister Epstein? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>The last time I communicated with him was when he

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<v Speaker 1>called me after he was arrested. Question and what was

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<v Speaker 1>the nature of that conversation? Answer? Again, to the best

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<v Speaker 1>of my recollection, it was a very short conversation, probably

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<v Speaker 1>less than a minute, and to the best of my recollection,

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<v Speaker 1>the only thing that he said was that he'd been arrested.

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<v Speaker 1>And my response was you obviously need to call your lawyer.

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<v Speaker 1>Question he didn't ask for legal advice at that time? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>Not at that time? Were you aware that he had

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<v Speaker 1>been arrested prior to the phone call? Rumler know. That

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<v Speaker 1>was what alerted me to the fact that he was arrested,

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<v Speaker 1>was his call. Question and he described any facts surrounding

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<v Speaker 1>why he had been arrested on the call? Answer not

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<v Speaker 1>that I remember. I don't believe so. Question did he

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<v Speaker 1>ask you to call or reach out to anyone on

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<v Speaker 1>his behalf? Answer? No. Question When was the last time

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<v Speaker 1>you saw mister Epstein in person? Answer it was his

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<v Speaker 1>arraignment in July of twenty nineteen. Question and where did

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<v Speaker 1>that occur? Answer? It was at the Federal courthouse in Manhattan.

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<v Speaker 1>Question and why did you decide to go to his arraignment? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I wanted to understand what was going on. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>this is someone who I had dealt with over the

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<v Speaker 1>prior five years. I was absolutely shocked that he had

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<v Speaker 1>been arrested. It was, you know, you could have knocked

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<v Speaker 1>me over with a feather. I was so shocked by it,

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<v Speaker 1>and I didn't understand, you know, what he was being

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<v Speaker 1>charged with. And you know, in federal court there aren't

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<v Speaker 1>any cameras allowed in court. And I knew obviously I

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<v Speaker 1>was still representing the Rothschild Bank. I had come to

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<v Speaker 1>have a personal relationship with Ariyan the Rothschild So I

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<v Speaker 1>knew that you would want to know, like what exactly

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<v Speaker 1>was going on. And so the way to find out

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<v Speaker 1>exactly what was going on is to actually be in

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<v Speaker 1>the courtroom. And so I went with a partner of

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<v Speaker 1>mine from the law firm, and we sat in the

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<v Speaker 1>back of the courtroom to watch, just you know, to

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<v Speaker 1>see the proceedings and to see exactly what the nature

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<v Speaker 1>of the charges were. Question and who was that partner

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<v Speaker 1>from the law firm? Answer Chris Clark. Did you get

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<v Speaker 1>the opportunity to have a conversation with mister Epstein before

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<v Speaker 1>or after his arraignment proceedings? Answer? I did not have

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<v Speaker 1>the opportunity to talk to him in the courtroom. And

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<v Speaker 1>I don't believe that he saw me in the courtroom

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<v Speaker 1>because I only saw the back of his head. Question

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<v Speaker 1>and did you have any other conversation with mister Epstein

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<v Speaker 1>after the arraignment proceeding? Answer? I did not. Question did

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<v Speaker 1>he ever try to reach out to you that you're

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<v Speaker 1>aware of? Answer? Did he try to reach out to

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<v Speaker 1>me to communicate with me? No. At some point in

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<v Speaker 1>the days after arraignment, I was asked whether or not

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<v Speaker 1>I would consider joining the defense team? Question and who

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<v Speaker 1>asked you that? Answer? My best recollection is that mister Dyke,

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<v Speaker 1>Darren Endyke, who was Epstein's lawyer, asked me. Question And

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<v Speaker 1>what did you say to mister Endyke about the ask? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I declined to join the defense team. Question and why

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<v Speaker 1>did you decline? Answer? Well, I had no interest in

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<v Speaker 1>being involved in that defense Question and why is that? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>At the time I had now seen the indictment. The

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<v Speaker 1>charges were The charges covered the timeframe of two thousand

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<v Speaker 1>and two to two thousand and five, so a good,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, decade plus since I had met him, So

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<v Speaker 1>it covered, you know, a period of time that I

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<v Speaker 1>believed had been investigated thoroughly by the State of Florida

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<v Speaker 1>and federal prosecutors. And again my understanding is that the

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<v Speaker 1>conclusion reached as a result of the investigation was that

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<v Speaker 1>mister Epstein did not intentionally recruit miners for commercial sex.

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<v Speaker 1>And the Southern District of New York indictment specifically alleged

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<v Speaker 1>that he had intentionally enticed and recruited miners. That was

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<v Speaker 1>something that they had had evidence that they had presented

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<v Speaker 1>to a grand jury, and that was a wholly different, worse,

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<v Speaker 1>and more sinister conduct than I had understood. I had

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<v Speaker 1>no interest in being involved in the defense question. And

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<v Speaker 1>you mentioned you saw the twenty nineteen indictment, You had

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<v Speaker 1>re seen the facts of the two thousand and two

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<v Speaker 1>two thousand and five timeframe, the state investigation in Florida,

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<v Speaker 1>the federal investigation then which led to his incarceration in Florida.

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<v Speaker 1>You had talked to him about his previous legal issues,

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<v Speaker 1>as you mentioned earlier. What did mister Epstein convey to

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<v Speaker 1>you about what happened in his first Florida legal issue?

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<v Speaker 1>What were your impressions of what had happened? Answer, Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I can tell you what he told me, and then

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<v Speaker 1>I can tell you well let me tell you what

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<v Speaker 1>he told me. And again this is something that he

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<v Speaker 1>told me, to the best of my recollection. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>believe it was the first meeting, but it was certainly

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<v Speaker 1>the second or third. He told me that he had

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<v Speaker 1>at his home upon Beach, that he arranged for women

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<v Speaker 1>to come to his home to provide massages to him,

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<v Speaker 1>and that some of those massages were sexual in nature,

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<v Speaker 1>and that he had I had, you know, paid for

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<v Speaker 1>each of these massages. He paid cash to each of

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<v Speaker 1>the massages. And that some of a small number of

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<v Speaker 1>the messuses or the women who were coming to his

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<v Speaker 1>home were turned out to be under the age of eighteen,

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<v Speaker 1>but he didn't know that or have knowledge of that,

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<v Speaker 1>And that the women, as he described to me, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>many of them worked in local massage parlors in Florida.

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<v Speaker 1>Question by mister Grant, and did you believe the story? Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>I believed it not because that's what he told me.

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<v Speaker 1>I believed it based on my experience as a federal prosecutor.

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<v Speaker 1>I knew that the state, the State Attorney's Office in Florida,

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<v Speaker 1>and in particular the chief of Sex Crimes Division there,

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<v Speaker 1>had led the investigation into Epstein, and that the conclusion

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<v Speaker 1>of the investigation was a single an indictment for a

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<v Speaker 1>single count of solicitation of prostitution. And the federal government

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<v Speaker 1>the US Attorney's Office in Miami, which based on my experience,

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<v Speaker 1>my long experience in the department and in particular my

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<v Speaker 1>service as a principal Associate Deputy Attorney General, the Miami

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<v Speaker 1>office mutationally was very aggressive office. And in fact, particularly

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<v Speaker 1>during this period of time that I was working on

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<v Speaker 1>the Enroun investigation, Main Justice was frequently recruiting people from

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<v Speaker 1>Miami to come up to Main Justice because it was

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<v Speaker 1>viewed as like, you know, the hard charging office. And

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<v Speaker 1>I understood that they had investigated the case, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>for a lengthy period of time and with all the

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<v Speaker 1>tools available to prosecutors, you know, search warrants. I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>know whether they used wire taps or whatever, but you know,

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<v Speaker 1>and the result of that investigation, the outcome of that

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<v Speaker 1>investigation was a decision not to prosecute Epstein, to and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, require him to enter into a non prosecution agreement.

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<v Speaker 1>And then he told me, which I you know, knew

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<v Speaker 1>through factual sources, I mean, through the record in the

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<v Speaker 1>matter that he received an eighteen month sentence. He received

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<v Speaker 1>twelve months on one count, six months on another account,

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<v Speaker 1>and he served thirteen months on that sentence, and most

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<v Speaker 1>of that thirteen months it had actually been served on

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<v Speaker 1>work release. So what he told me about the case

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<v Speaker 1>was consistent with the outcome. And then in addition, I

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<v Speaker 1>should say this what he told me about his conduct

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<v Speaker 1>in the case, and the key issue in my mind

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<v Speaker 1>being did this guy intentionally target miners, you know, for

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<v Speaker 1>commercial sex or was he more like a customer or

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<v Speaker 1>a john And this is a prostitution case where some

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<v Speaker 1>of the individuals were under age, but he didn't know that.

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<v Speaker 1>And importantly, he provided me with this letter that was lengthy,

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<v Speaker 1>a lengthy submission by attorney named Stephanie Tucker, who I

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<v Speaker 1>knew to be a sitting at the time I read

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<v Speaker 1>the letter, I knew to be a sitting Federal Court

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<v Speaker 1>appeals judge. And the importance to me about the letter,

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<v Speaker 1>which I read at the time was that it was

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<v Speaker 1>just or it wasn't just an adavc Z piece that

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<v Speaker 1>a defense lawyer submitted, but it was written by the

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<v Speaker 1>Deputy Attorney General's office, and it was an analysis and

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<v Speaker 1>about evidence that had been uncovered in the case. And

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<v Speaker 1>just to interject real quick, Mark Philip, what if I

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<v Speaker 1>told you guys from the beginning, this was an acosta,

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<v Speaker 1>It was Mark Philip, and she stated on equivocally that

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<v Speaker 1>there was not the evidence that Epstein had targeted miners

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<v Speaker 1>for sex, and she wouldn't. You have to remember, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I was a principal associate Deputy Attorney General, and so

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<v Speaker 1>those kinds of letters came to me when I sat

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<v Speaker 1>in that seat, those types of letters obviously not this letter.

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<v Speaker 1>I wasn't there then. But the last thing a lawyer

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<v Speaker 1>would do is go to the Justice Department and say

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<v Speaker 1>the evidence shows this to the people who know what

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<v Speaker 1>the evidence actually is. Because if you did that and

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<v Speaker 1>you were mistading the evidence, you would have zero credibility.

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<v Speaker 1>So that letter was really formed the basis of my

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<v Speaker 1>understanding of what his prior conduct in Florida was, and

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<v Speaker 1>that letter was consistent with what he told me and

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<v Speaker 1>corroborated what he told me. All right, folks, we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to wrap up right here, and then the next episode

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<v Speaker 1>dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up where

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<v Speaker 1>we left off. All the information that goes with this

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<v Speaker 1>episode can be found in the description box