WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.240 --> 00:00:05.559 Come and knock on our door. We've been waiting for 2 00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:07.519 We've been waiting for you. 3 00:00:07.839 --> 00:00:09.839 We've been waiting for you. 4 00:00:10.400 --> 00:01:02.119 Where the kisses are hers and hers and hiss company to. 5 00:00:40.320 --> 00:00:42.039 Chris, I'm Christie in. 6 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:55.840 The Come on Lake Trees Company. 7 00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:07.480 Praise the Lord Niggas and welcome back to the. 8 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:17.879 Oh yeah, praise the Lord blackest Niggas about nothing. Yeah, 9 00:01:18.760 --> 00:01:24.239 mashup episode. We have a fantastic guest today, and I 10 00:01:24.319 --> 00:01:27.640 how this mashup came to fruition was outside of my 11 00:01:27.719 --> 00:01:35.920 own general laziness. I was like, how can I make 12 00:01:35.959 --> 00:01:41.000 this work for me? So our guest today is a 13 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:47.159 wonderful academic, a person of academia. He's a doctor. How 14 00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:48.040 am I supposed to say that? 15 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:50.079 Sociologist? He's the sociologist. 16 00:01:50.159 --> 00:01:54.319 Thank you? Okay, wonderful. He's a sociologist. And he's also 17 00:01:54.519 --> 00:02:00.280 a black homosexual man. So I think reading a book 18 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:02.719 that he wrote a whole book about being a black 19 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:08.319 homosexual man. So we brought the world together. So so 20 00:02:08.360 --> 00:02:12.960 sorry getting grown audience, y'all are fine. 21 00:02:12.919 --> 00:02:16.639 Yeah, there's what are you apologizing for. It's a good 22 00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:19.919 time and you know it's it's information for all. 23 00:02:19.879 --> 00:02:21.879 It is exactly. Oh, I don't mean the kitchen table. 24 00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:23.319 I just meant our Shannannikins. 25 00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:27.560 But it's oh well, in that case, then how was 26 00:02:27.639 --> 00:02:30.759 y'all's weeks? What's been happenings, the Tiaga, what's going on? 27 00:02:31.159 --> 00:02:32.840 Let's start with Tekia. 28 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:34.000 I'm doing okay. 29 00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:36.879 I'm just you know, making my way when I can, 30 00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:40.360 keeping my head above water, making a way. 31 00:02:40.400 --> 00:02:42.159 When. How are you feeling in the season? I know 32 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:43.479 this is a season. 33 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:44.159 How are you feeling? 34 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:48.400 I'm hanging in there, you know, I'm uh. I am 35 00:02:49.800 --> 00:02:52.879 thinking a lot about what's going on in the world 36 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:57.439 and my family, just negotiating a lot of change and 37 00:02:57.560 --> 00:02:59.759 just trying to allow myself the space to sort of 38 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:04.560 experience it in real time with gratitude, like you know. 39 00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:10.039 I mean, it's hard, it's heavy, but I'm still able 40 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:15.080 to look around and express gratitude. You know, I think, 41 00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:18.560 I think, I think I shared with both of you, 42 00:03:18.840 --> 00:03:21.039 like you know, at this time, when I think about 43 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:25.000 Brian Brian's passing, it is hard and I don't know 44 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:26.960 that it will ever not be. But one thing that 45 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:30.000 helps me negotiate that is to think about all of 46 00:03:30.039 --> 00:03:35.159 the ways in which you know, I have, like you know, 47 00:03:35.240 --> 00:03:40.960 God has given me people and relationships and you know, family. 48 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:44.879 To help me through it. 49 00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:48.719 And you know, I see both of you as you know, 50 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:52.560 expressions of that. So I'm grateful for all the ways 51 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:54.759 that y'all have been holding me up for the last 52 00:03:55.039 --> 00:03:57.400 ten years, you know. And I'm going to miss my 53 00:03:57.400 --> 00:04:01.680 brother for the rest of my life, and uh, that's okay, 54 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:02.719 I'm supposed to. 55 00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:08.120 Yeah, absolutely, And we love you know, we love you. Yeah, 56 00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:13.599 thanking your time as family here at the MESA. Yeah, 57 00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:16.439 I'm cool. It's in the years. That means these things 58 00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:18.839 are going to be home. But also like it's kind 59 00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:20.240 of nice that I won't have to wake up at 60 00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:23.879 six o'clock in the morning. But you know, lots of 61 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:27.319 ind of your activities. Your girl was getting it yesterday. 62 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:32.759 I saw stories hitting her ones in her toos. 63 00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:35.120 Was hitting my rain. 64 00:04:40.120 --> 00:04:43.120 Noah was up there killing the rest of the k 65 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:44.000 and I know, I was like. 66 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:45.959 It's not a white girl. 67 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:47.759 She was trying to keep up. I was like, look 68 00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:48.040 at her. 69 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:51.920 She was look she did she did her little stone 70 00:04:51.959 --> 00:04:58.319 call she did right. I've never seen an elevety road 71 00:04:58.360 --> 00:05:02.879 at the debrace my works. Don't call diva. 72 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:07.279 She was a diva. I had to have to make sure, 73 00:05:07.319 --> 00:05:09.680 you know, as the mom with the best dancer, I 74 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:11.639 had to be like, you did a fabulous job. 75 00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:17.279 Yeah, And that's the thing. But that's the problem why 76 00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:19.240 I don't have children, because now I got a lot 77 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:26.040 of Yeah, don't be second, that's first last, absolutely not. 78 00:05:29.560 --> 00:05:31.560 We are winners, better. 79 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:36.279 Come in, that's right, that's right. 80 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:38.680 How are u x D outside of exactly? 81 00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:46.680 I am better? And I'm going to tell you why 82 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:52.079 it is so. And it's so interesting that we have 83 00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:54.319 Doctor Wander on the show today because of years ago 84 00:05:54.399 --> 00:05:59.000 he told me invest in your rest because it is 85 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:03.879 so important, restorative rest. It changes your heart, mind and 86 00:06:03.879 --> 00:06:08.800 and everyevity. Yeah. And so I've been struggling on my 87 00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:11.959 mattress for I talked about on the show for a while. 88 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:18.399 But I made a big boy purchase this yes, and 89 00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:21.120 I was like, why does this get so expensive the 90 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:25.680 whole time? And I bought myself a new mattress and 91 00:06:26.360 --> 00:06:32.759 with an adjustable frame of a particular and when I 92 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:41.920 tell you, it came yesterday and I rested, like the yes, 93 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:45.079 simply rest, That's what I did. 94 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:46.199 And when. 95 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:57.639 Rex, yeah, I haven't even had coffee today, and I 96 00:06:57.680 --> 00:06:59.759 am on, I'm on this. 97 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:04.360 That's what. Yes, that's what happened. You get a good 98 00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:06.759 night sleep. I can't wait to go. 99 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:08.399 To You're like, who was I? 100 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:09.839 Who was I? All that time? 101 00:07:11.480 --> 00:07:12.920 A total bit. 102 00:07:15.079 --> 00:07:15.560 Be happening. 103 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:17.279 Now you'd be like, oh wow, we were poor. 104 00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:21.639 I woke up. 105 00:07:21.720 --> 00:07:24.000 It was like Luther's version of can't you feel a 106 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:30.759 brand new Days? Actually the best version because I don't 107 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:34.800 believe the rapstros Diane, Jesus. 108 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:43.240 Lord, please, you always talking about Green. I got other names, 109 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:46.759 but I'll leave. I keep saying, I keep edging this conversation. 110 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:52.160 All the way articulate. I don't think I don't know 111 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:57.639 from beyond the gates. It's the same. It is what 112 00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:02.199 else happened this week? I went out side. It is 113 00:08:02.279 --> 00:08:06.879 funny because Terroll had his book thing yesterday, so I 114 00:08:06.920 --> 00:08:10.959 went and I always laughed because our friend Darnell, who 115 00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:13.439 wrote a book he talks about how like when gay 116 00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:18.639 is getting places, it always felt like cereal deaths. So 117 00:08:18.639 --> 00:08:24.079 so it was that Reparation Club, which is a wonderful 118 00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:29.120 black queer owned, woman owned book store. They have wonderful 119 00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:33.919 events in the West Alms neighborhood. Please go support the 120 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:39.279 Lincoln the Yeah, but I had, but I laughed because 121 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:42.200 I sat down and I was like. 122 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:50.080 Now, is this is this across the all the letters? 123 00:08:50.200 --> 00:08:50.759 Is this joke? 124 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:55.759 Oh yeah, it's everybody's when when a group of of 125 00:08:55.759 --> 00:09:03.879 of a because yeah, there's some people in the in 126 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:09.399 in in the alphabet that aren't that a little tart? 127 00:09:09.639 --> 00:09:12.879 You know what I mean? Historically? You know what I mean? 128 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:18.120 Oh that was Sorry, I'm going to say this meme. No, 129 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:22.679 I saw this beab and it was a non binary 130 00:09:23.080 --> 00:09:31.519 black person of the all party community. Yes, emo and such, 131 00:09:31.559 --> 00:09:34.879 you know what I'm saying, type ship, you know, and 132 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:40.120 you know, bang, yeah, they might have a natural in 133 00:09:40.159 --> 00:09:43.840 the back, but they flat on the bayang yeah, exactly, Wow, 134 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:49.080 combat boots and they're going to dunks, you know what 135 00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:53.559 I'm saying, with some glow sticks. But this person, it's 136 00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:59.559 that So it's that trend, Jesus, it's that trend where 137 00:09:59.559 --> 00:10:02.679 they like have the Kendrick like it is the fast 138 00:10:02.679 --> 00:10:05.440 way that goes. But I breathed, I bleed different. So 139 00:10:06.200 --> 00:10:09.279 they were like being free and black and going to 140 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:13.120 a queer party and blah blah blah blah blah. Gets 141 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:15.000 sad with the other part of the music. They were like, 142 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:17.320 but they stink. 143 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:23.879 Listen. I've been to plenty of pride, plenty of just 144 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:29.120 functions with you know it just be rake, you know 145 00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:29.679 what I mean. 146 00:10:29.960 --> 00:10:32.639 You know some niggas be musty, you know, and that's 147 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:34.320 just what it is, straight niggas. 148 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:38.840 What I told that pride is in the summertime because 149 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:40.240 it's hot. 150 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:45.080 Min stink, yeah, real bad. 151 00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:47.840 Bad yeah. 152 00:10:47.879 --> 00:10:50.000 And I know there's some of you, some of you 153 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:51.320 divas are into that. 154 00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:59.799 Butts nuts wash, you've got it. 155 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:02.440 I'm like, you gotta wash your nuts like we washed. 156 00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:08.159 Pys Geological differences when I think about, like with Brian. 157 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:10.159 You know, Brian was a large man. 158 00:11:10.519 --> 00:11:14.279 When he was a teenager though those hormones, and Grandma 159 00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:17.240 used to tell him to leave that. He used to 160 00:11:17.279 --> 00:11:22.320 have to disrobe in the basement, leave them stinking close downstairs, 161 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:25.039 put them directly in the washing machine, Like. 162 00:11:25.000 --> 00:11:27.679 Are you permeating all the walls of every room? 163 00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:31.120 Because quite literally, you cannot walk that must through my house. 164 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:32.639 You must, you must not. 165 00:11:33.559 --> 00:11:38.200 You cannot have put him in directly into the washing 166 00:11:38.200 --> 00:11:40.679 machine downstairs, and then you can come upstairs and wash 167 00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:44.200 your behind, but you may not parade that stinky funk 168 00:11:44.519 --> 00:11:45.799 all throughout my house. 169 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:47.759 That's not non negotiable. 170 00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:51.840 I laughed the other day because I was on the 171 00:11:51.879 --> 00:11:54.000 internet talking about like when I first got told to 172 00:11:54.000 --> 00:12:00.720 put on deodorant, we all think yeah, and it's always like, 173 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:04.120 you know what I mean? Do you think you get 174 00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:06.240 told it's been too late? It's been lingering for a while. 175 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:11.039 And I had to be like, enough is enough. I 176 00:12:11.159 --> 00:12:16.759 remember I was on my way home and normally, you know, 177 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:19.679 I would go to Carls Junior, right because that be 178 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:22.360 my afternoon stack or whatever. Because on the way home 179 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:29.399 and my grandmother was like, she went over to pn W, 180 00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:33.480 which is Pickley Wiggy, and she got me Mitcham and 181 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:36.320 that's how I knew Mitcham. And you know all black 182 00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:43.960 people think Mitcham and it right, like it's so good 183 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:48.559 you can skip a day? Yeah, but yeah, And when 184 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:51.480 I tell you, she was like, don't you dare miss 185 00:12:51.480 --> 00:12:51.759 a day? 186 00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:55.120 Have you noticed that your sweet smelling baby has suddenly 187 00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:57.360 turned into a funky smelling teenager. 188 00:12:58.039 --> 00:12:59.759 A new study looks at why and why is it 189 00:12:59.879 --> 00:13:00.720 you have a couple. 190 00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:03.120 Of babies that still probably smell pretty sweet. I have 191 00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:07.480 eighteen eleven and ten. My eighteen year old, never never 192 00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:10.320 ever ever smells bad. The eleven and ten. I'm not 193 00:13:10.360 --> 00:13:11.679 sure what's gonna happen. In a couple of years. 194 00:13:12.679 --> 00:13:18.600 I had tousy, I had tussy, and then you know 195 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:21.480 how I told you about the arrow with my parents. 196 00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:24.200 So then I got the crystal we were trying, or 197 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:26.600 maybe we tried the crystal first, the one that knowed 198 00:13:26.679 --> 00:13:30.320 you wet it you really. Then it was like, oh 199 00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:32.679 that don't work, and then it was and then I 200 00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:36.000 think we jumped to not secret. What was the other 201 00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:39.240 one I have secret? Maybe it was Mitchell actually sure 202 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:41.679 as Mitchell I used no, I never, I never was 203 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:42.279 a sure. 204 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:46.240 My mom my first was secret. 205 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:50.799 And then I remember when degree came out. This was 206 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:51.039 a thing. 207 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:52.919 Degree, that was it. 208 00:13:53.720 --> 00:13:56.840 When degree came out, I remember wanting degree and my mom's. 209 00:13:56.600 --> 00:13:59.240 Saying something ridiculous like degree was for boys, and I 210 00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:02.399 was fight girl, like what you sound because it was 211 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:06.960 he It was heavily marketing. So yeah, any powder degree, 212 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:09.519 but that that was later. They came out with all 213 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:12.320 sort of flavors a little later. But I remember, like 214 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:15.639 the original degree before there was any sort of kind 215 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:19.480 of different fragrant options. Yes, and I remember it coming 216 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:22.320 out My mom was like, uh, you can get that 217 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:24.279 for your brother, but you need to get secret. 218 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:26.519 We asked some of the hardest guys in town to 219 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:29.799 trade their deoderant for new degree deodorant activated. 220 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:32.159 Let's give it a shot as your body heat rise. 221 00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:36.120 His only degree releases extra protection against odor. When I 222 00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:37.919 eat up deodor, it's going to kick in. It works 223 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:38.559 far better than. 224 00:14:38.519 --> 00:14:41.840 The speech that kicked in for me, because I was like, girl, what, 225 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:44.399 and then I said. My logic was, if it's strong 226 00:14:44.519 --> 00:14:49.080 enough for a man, it shouldn't matter. 227 00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:56.320 It shouldn't matter. That's why I were a secret today period. Listen. Branding, 228 00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:59.679 branding and commercials get me. This is why they need 229 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:03.639 to go back to proper commercial advertising and jingles if 230 00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:04.320 they want me to. 231 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:10.200 While we're talking about theme songs for your television programs 232 00:15:10.039 --> 00:15:11.519 as well, because I'm tired. 233 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:16.279 Of because I'm tired of just exactly you know, like 234 00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:17.000 that's lazy. 235 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:19.559 It is lazy. I mean, it gives you more show, 236 00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:24.159 I'll say that. But there was something they don't have. 237 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:27.320 To do nothing else. They could add the extra two minutes, don't. 238 00:15:27.279 --> 00:15:29.360 I mean, they could just put it in and post 239 00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:32.039 like it's literally just you know, put it in at 240 00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:32.440 the start. 241 00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:39.200 They're using They're using AI to ruin everything else. You know, 242 00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:42.080 use it be effective, add the intro in the beginning 243 00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:42.559 of something. 244 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:45.240 Wait, what kind of de order and do you use? Now? Kia, 245 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:50.480 I still use degree? You still use the an xdu 246 00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:52.440 u secret still mm hmm. 247 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:58.320 I don't use mentioned because it causes like like you 248 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:00.679 know how it is, yeah strong. 249 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:04.080 I think I wear an old Lady deorderant. I think 250 00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:08.679 what well? I wear two deorderance right? Because okay, first 251 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:11.200 of all, I got off the natural train, so sorry 252 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:17.279 to disappoint girls, miss, I use one. I use an 253 00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:20.000 arm and hammer lavender Roseberry. 254 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:24.039 Situation is, yeah, I use that. 255 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:27.600 It's summertime, so I don't have time to be playing around, 256 00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:29.240 you know what I'm saying. I'm not one of those 257 00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:32.000 girls that's like, I don't I don't stink very much. 258 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:35.519 Like if I go to Yeah, if I go to 259 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:39.360 sleep and don't put on deodorant, nigga, I might be musty. 260 00:16:39.399 --> 00:16:41.240 I never wanted to play those games. 261 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:45.279 So as a as a college student, y'all know, I 262 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:49.360 was born eighty, I used to go into Neiman Marcus 263 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:50.480 to go get my deodorant. 264 00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:51.399 Oh, very classy. 265 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:53.879 Well you are very old. Well Don. 266 00:16:55.840 --> 00:16:59.840 Missed, so then I got you off for a long 267 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:02.360 did you wear? What the hell? 268 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:03.080 Cash? 269 00:17:03.399 --> 00:17:04.759 I have boundaries. 270 00:17:09.400 --> 00:17:15.759 And it's not leading me wrong. Elizabeth Odd and Red Door, 271 00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:23.599 you should. I felt especially old last night because I 272 00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:27.960 went to shout out to Mandy and Weezy. I went 273 00:17:28.039 --> 00:17:33.359 to the Horrible Decisions One night Only cool live show 274 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:35.680 at Sony Music Hall. As you all listen to this, 275 00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:39.240 I believe this was last week. I went with Internet 276 00:17:39.559 --> 00:17:44.200 and Crystal Jean very nice, Jasmina and uh, would you 277 00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:46.319 all like to see what your Crystal Jene looked like 278 00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:50.039 at the show. So it was a fabulous show, wonderful production, 279 00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:54.079 very sex positive. Okay, it was great for the beginning 280 00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:59.200 of Pride. Okay. We had a burlesque, man, I've never 281 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:02.920 had mel burles I had a nasty hill and got 282 00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:06.960 down to a corset. It was It was fabulous and 283 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:09.240 the girls did a great job and it was entertaining, 284 00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:14.000 and your sister also was having the time of her life. 285 00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:24.319 I'm not surprised at nothing about that surprising to me. 286 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:26.759 Very much. 287 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:34.079 On a mask that is very much that's a brand. 288 00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:36.200 But it was a good time. But it was I 289 00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:39.039 was out on a Tuesday particular for you. It was 290 00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:40.799 candle wax. 291 00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:42.880 And paddles and was grown. 292 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:45.960 I don't know who I thought I was actually grown 293 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:55.839 it was. I mean, but we we have a fantastic 294 00:18:55.920 --> 00:19:02.200 kitchen table slash after the break conversation, yeah yeah, yeah, 295 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:03.319 So should we get to it? 296 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:07.960 I think we should headed Clyde. 297 00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:13.119 After these messages. Will be right back. 298 00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:19.920 While I'm at it, I'll also cut my short and 299 00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:23.640 long rail pieces. Try my best to avoid the sidewood. 300 00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:28.559 I mean, I like soidewood on occasion, but I'm just 301 00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:31.680 not looking for a permanent relationship with it on this piece. 302 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:39.559 Welcome back, Welcome Blacks. 303 00:19:39.640 --> 00:19:42.440 I'm very excited at the kitchen table because we have 304 00:19:42.519 --> 00:19:44.640 expanded the kitchen table. You remember how your grandma used 305 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:46.759 to have that flat where you can make the kitchen table. 306 00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:49.160 Oh my god, I forgot about the flat. 307 00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:52.200 We have. 308 00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:57.000 Table the little you know, we've given the kitchen table 309 00:19:57.039 --> 00:20:00.079 a little bit more length, and we are joined some 310 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:02.680 very special guests. Y'all know, friend to the show, our 311 00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:05.240 brother x D is here. But we're also very excited 312 00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:08.079 to welcome a special guest whom I will introduce right 313 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:15.240 now I will read his bio. Terrell Ja Wender receives 314 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:19.759 his PhD in sociology from UCLA, the University of California, 315 00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:21.799 Los Angeles, in twenty seventeen. 316 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:25.079 He is an urban ethnographer. 317 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:28.680 Whose research areas include race and ethnicity, sexuality and sexual health, 318 00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:33.440 qualitative and quantitative research methods, and education. His current research 319 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:39.480 examines stigma response processes among stigmatized populations negotiating more than 320 00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:45.160 one stigma simultaneously. His research has been published in Qualitative Sociology, AIDS, 321 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:47.839 Patient Care and STDs, the Journal of Racial and Ethnic 322 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:51.640 Health Disparities, and the Journal of Medical Internet Research. His 323 00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:55.160 work is also on mobile applications as a health intervention, 324 00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:58.640 and he's been covered in the LA Times. He has 325 00:20:58.839 --> 00:21:00.720 he's here to talk about his life. This book, which 326 00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:04.039 is out to day. It is a book called Shameless, 327 00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:06.759 The Making of Black Gay Identities in LA. It's a 328 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:11.519 multi method examination of anti gay stigma response among young 329 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:13.599 black gay men in Los Angeles. 330 00:21:13.640 --> 00:21:15.160 Everybody, welcome, doctor. 331 00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:20.359 Doctor, well, doctor Winder, excuse me, doctor Winder to the 332 00:21:20.440 --> 00:21:21.160 kitchen table. 333 00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:23.480 Hey, Dr Winder, and welcome. 334 00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:25.559 Hello, thank you, thank you, thanks for having me. 335 00:21:25.880 --> 00:21:31.319 Yes, yes, So this is a really interesting book and untimely, 336 00:21:31.480 --> 00:21:37.359 one being that it is pride. Yeah, but we're coming 337 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:40.720 out an intersection of life where we're being attacked by 338 00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:48.079 a whole bunch of shit. Right, So talk to us 339 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:50.559 a little bit about this book. We have questions. But 340 00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:54.559 you introduced and let us know about your baby. Yeah, 341 00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:58.640 happy to do so. You know, Shameless was a long 342 00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:00.599 working process. You know. 343 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:03.079 I started data collection for the project probably in twenty 344 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:08.440 twelve in Los Angeles, and you know, spent over four 345 00:22:08.519 --> 00:22:11.519 years kind of going and collecting data with a group 346 00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:13.480 of guys in LA and learning just how they were 347 00:22:13.559 --> 00:22:16.000 navigating what it meant to be black and gay in 348 00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:19.039 Los Angeles. And I kind of start off in the 349 00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:23.240 book saying, you know, I'm from Baltimore, so my orientation 350 00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:26.039 to what it means to be growing up as a 351 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:27.880 black person is different than what has. 352 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:29.240 Happening I thinking in LA. 353 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:31.720 I think people sometimes think of LA as very black 354 00:22:31.720 --> 00:22:35.559 because we have these like you know, black movies, like 355 00:22:35.799 --> 00:22:40.160 you know, exactly it's set in LA, but it's actually 356 00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:42.440 been you know, the population of black people has been 357 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:45.160 declining over time, and so I was very interested in, like, 358 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:47.160 how are you all learning what it means to be black? 359 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:48.680 What does it mean to be gay in a city, 360 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:51.880 you know, the second largest city in our country, and 361 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:54.640 that's very geographically different. And so the book is an 362 00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:58.599 opportunity for me to kind of tell their stories in 363 00:22:58.599 --> 00:23:00.960 connection with my own ballso of thinking about how do 364 00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:04.920 we respond back and reject some of those stigmas and 365 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:06.880 negative experiences in everyday life. 366 00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:08.319 Mm hmmm. 367 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:13.759 Vana. So even you talk about in the beginning about 368 00:23:13.799 --> 00:23:19.839 the geographic I don't want to say disparities, but how 369 00:23:19.960 --> 00:23:23.720 the geographical lay out of LA and how that, uh 370 00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:31.440 is indicative of how people established community. Can you talk 371 00:23:31.480 --> 00:23:34.039 about that in essense of like, you know, comparing it 372 00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:36.960 to Baltimore or like New York City or anything in 373 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:38.559 places where you've lived, you know. 374 00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:41.680 Yeah, you know, I think, Uh. 375 00:23:42.440 --> 00:23:46.799 One thing that's true about l A, right is public 376 00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:51.200 transportation is not winning any awards and not. 377 00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:54.079 Right the campaign influenceds talking about. 378 00:23:58.039 --> 00:24:01.200 You know, but that's part of it, right that you know. 379 00:24:01.480 --> 00:24:01.680 LA. 380 00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:03.880 To me when I got here, I was like, why. 381 00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:05.039 Does it take an hour and I have to go 382 00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:07.160 ten miles? Like, you know, I can see where I 383 00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:12.759 need to be on the highway and so you know, 384 00:24:13.079 --> 00:24:16.480 understanding how people are navigating the physical space. I think 385 00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:20.000 helps to understand how people are setting up their identities 386 00:24:20.039 --> 00:24:22.960 and who they are, right like you know, who you encounter, 387 00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:26.079 who you don't encounter, or shaping how you see yourself. 388 00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:30.519 And so for me, it was interesting coming from Baltimore 389 00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:34.599 and New York City, where you know, it doesn't take 390 00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:37.160 an hour and a half to ten miles or you know, 391 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:38.960 you can hop on the train and go where you 392 00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:43.920 need to go, and you know, seeing that play out 393 00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:46.400 in LA was very interesting to me. So I think, 394 00:24:46.599 --> 00:24:48.000 you know, at the core of it, what I'm saying 395 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:50.559 is like geography matters, so like it's important for us 396 00:24:50.559 --> 00:24:53.359 to consider like where people are growing up and the 397 00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:55.839 context of the like the demographics of that place really 398 00:24:55.880 --> 00:24:59.119 matter for how we think about what is blackness? How 399 00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:01.599 does blackness show up? And what is queerness? What is gayness? 400 00:25:01.599 --> 00:25:04.240 How does that show up in space? And so that's 401 00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:06.599 kind of what I emphasize there, and I highlight kind 402 00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:10.160 of you know, people are traveling an hour or two hours, 403 00:25:10.519 --> 00:25:12.640 you know, wherever to get somewhere to meet people, to 404 00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:14.920 hang out with community, and I think it's important to 405 00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:17.640 you know, to highlight that even though we have so 406 00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:23.079 many resources in LA, it's not equally dispersed across the 407 00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:24.119 city in location. 408 00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:29.799 I have a question for you, actually, I guess pre book, 409 00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:31.759 because in order for you to write this, you had 410 00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:34.839 this was part of research and also just adaptation to 411 00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:39.000 a new space. I have a good friend out in LA. 412 00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:43.200 Her name is is Nia, and she put together the 413 00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:49.240 supper clubs specifically for lesbian and fems in black lesbian 414 00:25:49.240 --> 00:25:52.400 and films in LA because they feel like they have 415 00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:55.880 not had any spaces in those spaces have predominantly been 416 00:25:55.960 --> 00:25:58.960 for black gay men, I mean for gay men and 417 00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:01.880 specifically for white men, which well, I'm sure we're going 418 00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:05.400 to get to that. How did you go about with 419 00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:08.160 all of these challenges that you that you just spoke about, 420 00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:11.680 how did you go about really finding your community out there? 421 00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:14.359 You know, that's a great question and a great point. 422 00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:17.279 I think when you talk about the supper club and 423 00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:20.720 creating a space for lesbians and product, I think for women, 424 00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:24.200 we don't have as many organizations as target women. 425 00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:26.279 We don't have as many public. 426 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:29.640 Spaces for women to do that, especially for black lesbian women. 427 00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:32.279 So one of my early mentors kind of did a 428 00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:34.720 similar thing. She used to host these parties that set 429 00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:36.720 up I think it would call chocolate and wine, and 430 00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:38.519 she and her wife used to That's how she. 431 00:26:38.519 --> 00:26:40.640 Would recruit people for her her work. 432 00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:44.680 And her book is Invisible Families, about Black lesbian mothers 433 00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:50.960 in Black lesbian motherhood. And so I think how gender 434 00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:54.200 plays a role in who can access what spaces is important. 435 00:26:54.200 --> 00:26:56.319 And so in my case, because I was looking at 436 00:26:56.559 --> 00:26:59.799 men and mostly since men, there are a lot of 437 00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:06.039 organizations in spaces targeting them, namely for HIV n STI prevention, 438 00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:09.759 care and treatment, and so you know, a lot of 439 00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:14.839 the organizational pieces of the work happened because of HIV. 440 00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:17.039 It was important for me to say that the book 441 00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:20.359 is not about HIV. And I've made that comment a 442 00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:22.640 lot that when I said I was working on a 443 00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:25.720 project about black men, people would often say, oh, so 444 00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:28.680 you're studying HIV, and I'll have to say, well, no, 445 00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:31.480 you know, and I resisted that for a long time, 446 00:27:31.559 --> 00:27:33.920 but I think it's important to acknowledge what are the 447 00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:40.519 kind of spillover effects from this kind of funding, you know, 448 00:27:40.599 --> 00:27:45.599 system that created these organizations where people are getting money 449 00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:49.519 to find people who are positive. Right, And so because 450 00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:53.160 black gay men and black pere men in particular have 451 00:27:53.240 --> 00:27:57.680 been such a target, both impacted by the epidemic but 452 00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:02.240 also being targeted now to be found through organizations. It 453 00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:06.440 made it some ways easier to locate physical spaces. There's 454 00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:08.720 also the gendered aspect, which is like most places are 455 00:28:08.759 --> 00:28:12.720 catering to men, even gay clubs, gay bars often are 456 00:28:12.759 --> 00:28:15.799 catering to men, and so it wasn't as hard to 457 00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:21.319 locate spaces physically where they would be. But I think 458 00:28:21.319 --> 00:28:23.440 that's a key point whence people ask me like, why 459 00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:25.640 are there no you know, why didn't I also include 460 00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:28.680 like queer women or that, And they really weren't there 461 00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:30.839 in the space as much because. 462 00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:32.720 Also you're not a queer woman, I'm not so. 463 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:35.559 But if they were there, you know, I mean, I 464 00:28:35.559 --> 00:28:37.759 feel like it's you know, if they're in this physical space, 465 00:28:38.599 --> 00:28:40.960 you I would include them, right, But I think it's 466 00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:44.240 important to highlight like there are not as many resources 467 00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:46.039 that are targeting them. I think, you know, many of 468 00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:48.279 the women colleagues of mine, I know who are fighting 469 00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:50.400 to say no, black women need to learn about PREP. 470 00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:52.519 Black women need to know about PEP. They need to know. 471 00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:56.960 About these things that's coming much later. They're they're always 472 00:28:57.079 --> 00:28:59.000 being pushed as an afterthought, and I think it's important 473 00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:00.839 to highlight like part of the reason why I was 474 00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:02.839 able to do this is because there's so much of 475 00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:07.319 an emphasis one man in patriarchy that's a whole. 476 00:29:10.599 --> 00:29:13.720 Even as a personal note, I worked on a movie 477 00:29:14.279 --> 00:29:20.240 and a part of a part of the director's push 478 00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:23.079 and a part of like financial stuff was attached to 479 00:29:23.079 --> 00:29:27.400 the Black Aids Institute. And I've always it was always 480 00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:29.799 been this adage of like there's always money and aids, 481 00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:34.799 and I always think that it's so interesting how that 482 00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:38.759 money is funneled into other usage, you know, to create 483 00:29:38.839 --> 00:29:42.559 like third spaces that we all need, which we'll talk 484 00:29:42.599 --> 00:29:44.799 about in a little bit, but you know, I just 485 00:29:44.839 --> 00:29:48.680 find it interesting how everything is just relegated to this 486 00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:53.880 epidemic and not anything else that we're you know, have 487 00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:55.640 stuff going on, you know what I mean? 488 00:29:55.759 --> 00:30:01.480 Yeah, yeah, I wanted to I think to Meet the 489 00:30:01.480 --> 00:30:03.799 book is really I think it's really cool. I think 490 00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:08.000 it's a different sort of spin because I know there 491 00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:09.880 are lots of literature and. 492 00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:12.720 Sort of discourse. 493 00:30:12.359 --> 00:30:17.440 Around identity and how identity is shaped by communal spaces, right, 494 00:30:17.559 --> 00:30:23.920 and and you know what socialization, what role that plays 495 00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:26.720 in like our socialization and how we come to know identity. 496 00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:29.359 What I think is really interesting about Shameless is that. 497 00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:33.839 You talk about this through but but like through the 498 00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:38.799 lens of stigmatization. And I was wondering if before we 499 00:30:38.839 --> 00:30:41.960 sort of get into some of the deeper or more 500 00:30:42.039 --> 00:30:45.160 nuanced questions around some of your choices to do that, 501 00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:49.480 cause you sort of just explain like stigmatization like one 502 00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:52.039 on one, like for anyone who's coming in and wanted 503 00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:55.920 to understand. Uh, you know, we know that negative stigmas exist, 504 00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:57.720 but like you know, I think your book kind of 505 00:30:57.799 --> 00:31:00.359 lays out what are the things that informed them and 506 00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:05.640 sustain them, and you know, how we come to respond 507 00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:07.480 and interact with them. Just talk to us a little 508 00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:09.400 bit about about that, because I feel like that's sort 509 00:31:09.400 --> 00:31:11.160 of a core premise in the. 510 00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:14.759 Yeah, no, it's a great question. Let's see if I 511 00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:15.400 do it justice. 512 00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:17.400 But I'll say, you know, one of the things that 513 00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:18.799 was important for me in the book was, I think 514 00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:24.920 we use a lot of these terms interchangeably, so like stigma, stereotype, prejudice, discrimination, racism, 515 00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:29.720 even yep, and I in the book go all the 516 00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:31.920 way back to I think one of the best examples 517 00:31:31.960 --> 00:31:38.319 of stigmatization is probably the scarlet letter, right, the Hawthorn text, 518 00:31:38.359 --> 00:31:41.440 where it's like, Okay, here's someone who committed adult where 519 00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:44.559 you're putting this big letter on her. It's the mark, right, 520 00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:47.599 So what are these identities, these behaviors, these things that 521 00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:50.799 we do that leave us with a mark socially and 522 00:31:50.839 --> 00:31:54.359 then you know, differentiating that from discriminations, like when you're 523 00:31:54.400 --> 00:31:57.359 treated differently because of that mark. Right, So what does 524 00:31:57.400 --> 00:31:59.440 it mean to walk through life with this particular mark? 525 00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:02.960 And a lot of work I think focused on kind 526 00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:06.599 of people navigate one stigma, right, but what does it 527 00:32:06.680 --> 00:32:09.279 mean to live at the intersection of multiple stigmas and 528 00:32:09.319 --> 00:32:12.720 to be dealing with kind of intersectional stigmas. So the 529 00:32:12.759 --> 00:32:15.119 example I gave about HIV is I think the good 530 00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:17.440 one where it's like, you know, there are stereotypes about 531 00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:19.640 what it means to be black, there are stigmas associated 532 00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:22.640 with that. There are stereotypes and stigmas associated with what 533 00:32:22.680 --> 00:32:26.759 it means to be gett or queer. But the idea 534 00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:29.880 that everything that's going on in black gay or black 535 00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:32.599 peer men's lives is HIV related or like, you know, 536 00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:34.960 that's the primary focal point. I think it's a unique 537 00:32:35.079 --> 00:32:38.279 kind of intersectional example of how that's the label. 538 00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:40.119 Right the moment where I say. 539 00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:42.559 You know, I'm studying in black gay men, they automatically 540 00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:45.119 think that that's what it's about, and I get to say, well, no, 541 00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:47.519 that's not the only thing that you know that's happening, 542 00:32:47.559 --> 00:32:50.279 and people are they're human, right, So it's allowing to 543 00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:54.160 you know, kind of craft full embodiments of who people are. 544 00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:56.599 And so to me, stigma is one of those kind 545 00:32:56.559 --> 00:32:59.359 of Cagy terms that I think people hear it all 546 00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:01.480 the time't really name what it is, But to me, 547 00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:03.680 I define it in the book as like the actual 548 00:33:03.799 --> 00:33:07.640 mark of what it is to have, you know, to 549 00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:13.400 hold an identity that is looked down upon, right society? 550 00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:18.599 Yeah, like costa, like how what it costs you socially? 551 00:33:19.720 --> 00:33:21.920 Yeah, And also draw on the du Boys like you 552 00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:25.359 know wd WB D Boys talks about like the burden 553 00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:29.119 of second sight, right, like, yeah, what does it mean 554 00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:30.839 to go through life with the burden of having to 555 00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:33.400 see yourself through the eyes of other people all the time? 556 00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:38.319 Yeah, that's exhausting. The double identity is what it is essentially, 557 00:33:38.359 --> 00:33:40.680 because you're existing and then you're like, let me see 558 00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:42.839 how other people perceive me, and you've got to carry 559 00:33:42.839 --> 00:33:46.799 that as well. That's so much responsibility, which speaking of 560 00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:52.519 responsibility on people that they don't deserve, I want you 561 00:33:52.599 --> 00:33:56.319 to go in to a little go it into the 562 00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:58.880 coming out what you were talking about with coming out 563 00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:02.319 and how coming out it's for other people as we're 564 00:34:02.359 --> 00:34:03.519 talking about stigmas. 565 00:34:03.799 --> 00:34:07.519 Yeah, you know, a lot of the research I think 566 00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:11.679 in literature about how people navigate stigma is trying to 567 00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:15.119 make other people comfortable, and I think coming out is 568 00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:19.679 often framed as this like revelatory moment where you finally 569 00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:20.760 you know. 570 00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:23.079 Accept yourself, but I don't. 571 00:34:23.159 --> 00:34:24.800 I actually think there's a step before that, and that's 572 00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:27.119 where I kind of position unspoiling because I think people 573 00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:29.679 sometimes come out and they don't like themselves, or they're 574 00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:33.920 outed and people know and they still haven't made, you know, 575 00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:38.039 the decision to come to terms with that identity themselves, 576 00:34:39.159 --> 00:34:42.519 and coming out I think for you know, kind of 577 00:34:42.519 --> 00:34:45.880 prioritizes other people and it's like I'm going to share 578 00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:46.400 this with you. 579 00:34:46.480 --> 00:34:48.119 I want you to know, and then people are upset 580 00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:50.000 you didn't tell them and all this other kind of stuff. 581 00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:52.519 You know, So for me, it was important to say, no, 582 00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:55.440 what I'm talking about in this book is not coming out. 583 00:34:55.960 --> 00:34:58.599 It's about how do I reformulate a relationship with the 584 00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:02.360 identities I've been told on my life are bad, right, 585 00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:07.239 and where you're getting messages about it being bad dipper 586 00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:10.880 along the line of race, class, gender, where you are 587 00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:13.599 in the world, right, And so it was important for 588 00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:15.840 me to highlight that. But I think differentiating it from 589 00:35:15.880 --> 00:35:18.519 coming out because sometimes people say, well, you know, we 590 00:35:18.599 --> 00:35:21.199 had all these campaigns like it gets better, you know those, 591 00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:23.559 and it's like for some people it doesn't like let's 592 00:35:23.559 --> 00:35:27.599 just be real exactly, like yeah, but you still need 593 00:35:27.639 --> 00:35:29.840 to focus on how you feel about you, and that 594 00:35:29.960 --> 00:35:32.079 to me is the priority, you know, like, how do 595 00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:34.079 I focus on feeling good about me? 596 00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:40.239 Just everybody? Because every niggas are not okay with themselves 597 00:35:40.280 --> 00:35:43.079 and then they spill their ship all over the place people, 598 00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:47.199 and it's frustrated with It's also an unfair burden I 599 00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:52.519 feel like on on the community because it's like, why 600 00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:54.800 do I have to why do I have to come 601 00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:58.840 tell you what my preference is? Again, as a as 602 00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:01.719 a as a hetero sexual, I never have to go 603 00:36:01.760 --> 00:36:05.400 and make an announcement about who I'm interested in or 604 00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:07.519 why I'm interested in them, you know what I mean. 605 00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:11.159 It's not a declaration, and so I find that I've 606 00:36:11.159 --> 00:36:13.480 always found it actually to be a bit of a 607 00:36:13.480 --> 00:36:15.800 weird concept. But I do understand where it comes from 608 00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:20.119 because there's so much homophobia rooted in our community as well. 609 00:36:20.239 --> 00:36:23.159 So and it's a continual thing, you know, I think 610 00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:26.599 historically we had thought about people talked about coming out. 611 00:36:26.639 --> 00:36:28.719 It's like when did you come out? Like people ask 612 00:36:28.760 --> 00:36:31.519 that question, when did you come out? You're coming out 613 00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:33.559 all the time, like every time you meet a new person, 614 00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:36.599 you have come like a continual thing throughout life, you know. 615 00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:38.599 I always joke about when the first time I came 616 00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:41.559 to California and there was some women I was hanging around, 617 00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:43.239 and I was very confused because I was like, do 618 00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:43.920 they know I'm gay? 619 00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:44.719 Like what's going on here? 620 00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:45.079 Like I don't. 621 00:36:46.119 --> 00:36:47.880 I was like, oh, it didn't translate from New York 622 00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:50.199 to California, like confusing, But it's like, oh, I have 623 00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:53.960 to come out again, like, you know, like constantly every 624 00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:55.679 time you meet new people, because you don't know how 625 00:36:55.719 --> 00:36:59.079 they are encountering you or like what they see in you. 626 00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:02.320 Sometimes and we take that for granted. If you you know, 627 00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:05.360 I think, I don't know, maybe I'm you know, an 628 00:37:05.400 --> 00:37:07.159 example of a gay person who's like, you know, I 629 00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:10.320 have no idea how people interpret what they think I 630 00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:11.880 do until they say it. 631 00:37:12.679 --> 00:37:16.079 That's such an interesting thought. I've never I guess I 632 00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:19.320 come from a place of privilege where I've lived my 633 00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:23.480 outness for the last twenty years on the internet, so 634 00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:27.039 people are already coming with the notion of of who 635 00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:29.880 I am and all that stuff. But I've never really 636 00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:33.679 had to, you know, have to reintroduce myself or have 637 00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:38.400 to come out again, like I haven't had to come 638 00:37:38.519 --> 00:37:42.599 out since I left home whatever coming out means, you 639 00:37:42.639 --> 00:37:47.559 know what I mean. So I think, yeah, I've never 640 00:37:47.559 --> 00:37:51.280 thought about this, this reintroduction like going on, you know, 641 00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:54.719 again and again and again. When whatever new person that 642 00:37:54.800 --> 00:37:55.360 you meet. 643 00:37:55.559 --> 00:37:58.119 Tell I think, like the barbershop, right, like yeah, you know, 644 00:37:58.360 --> 00:38:00.239 as a classic example, but like gave you were talking 645 00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:01.840 about the barbershop, and you know, when I first moved 646 00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:04.559 to LA I was going to a barbershop and one 647 00:38:04.639 --> 00:38:07.480 day he the barber at the time, asked me something 648 00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:09.239 like what I did, and I mentioned it, and then 649 00:38:09.559 --> 00:38:11.880 and then from then on, once he knew, he was like, Okay, 650 00:38:11.920 --> 00:38:13.559 every time I came in he had a list of 651 00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:17.239 gay questions. He was like, Okay, you here, I've been 652 00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:23.639 waiting to ask this. He's like an LGBT community. 653 00:38:23.719 --> 00:38:24.800 Am I saying that? Right? 654 00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:28.800 I was, So I had to appreciate. I appreciated his questions. 655 00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:30.559 But it became this same where it was like, oh 656 00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:33.079 what the first few months you had no idea. You 657 00:38:33.159 --> 00:38:35.280 just had no idea who I was, what I was doing. 658 00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:38.079 But then I had to come out and now I'm 659 00:38:38.119 --> 00:38:38.960 the authority on. 660 00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:42.679 The gay stuff. So he had his questions every few weeks. 661 00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:46.760 Yeah, I was going to say, I think x ste though, 662 00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:49.000 I think what you're saying is an example of something 663 00:38:49.079 --> 00:38:52.239 that to me came through in the book, like the 664 00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:55.440 process of unspoiling like you, I think when you talk 665 00:38:55.519 --> 00:38:59.400 about like you know, ultimately, I guess you could argue 666 00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:02.719 that the way that you have presented yourself and your 667 00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:06.840 identity online is in largely a lot of way a 668 00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:10.559 rejection of the stigmatization that comes absolutely along with this. 669 00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:16.400 So I well, I think it's super dope about Shaneless 670 00:39:16.440 --> 00:39:18.559 is that it gives us some examples for like what 671 00:39:19.159 --> 00:39:23.360 the work of that unspoiling looks like in practice and 672 00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:27.559 what are the spaces and places and practices of actually 673 00:39:28.280 --> 00:39:30.440 actually doing that. I'm sorry, I thought you was going 674 00:39:30.519 --> 00:39:31.400 to say something XD. 675 00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:36.440 Well, yeah, I wanted to talk about you interviewed a 676 00:39:36.440 --> 00:39:40.400 lot of people, a lot of people, and through this, 677 00:39:40.679 --> 00:39:44.000 you know, you discovered, you know, how people identify and stuff. 678 00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:47.679 But what I found interesting was I was, yes, I 679 00:39:47.719 --> 00:39:50.360 was expecting the gay shit, but I didn't expect the 680 00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:55.079 racial identity portion when with the person who was like 681 00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:58.519 it was almost like, but I'm you know what I mean, like, 682 00:39:58.599 --> 00:40:01.719 I'm not black, I'm kind of thing with samo in person. 683 00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:05.559 Can you talk about that in this idea of when 684 00:40:05.559 --> 00:40:09.800 it comes to identities and race comes to play, How 685 00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:12.320 does race come into play, especially in your research. 686 00:40:12.440 --> 00:40:16.199 Yeah, No, definitely race essential to it. I think one 687 00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:21.679 of the key pieces is, like, we grow up often 688 00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:24.559 if you're raised in a black family, hearing a lot 689 00:40:24.599 --> 00:40:29.639 of messages about blackness that are more evenly tempered then 690 00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:34.400 you hear about sexuality. So you grow up maybe learning 691 00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:38.320 from your parents that being black comes with costs or 692 00:40:38.360 --> 00:40:41.519 social costs, or how to prepare yourself for an encountering 693 00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:46.199 the police or being better. But they also have messages 694 00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:49.000 like black is beautiful, your beauty, Like they often are 695 00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:54.239 pouring those things into you around race, not around sexuality. 696 00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:59.159 And for many people who I interviewed, race to them 697 00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:01.960 was immutable, right, even though we often talk about it 698 00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:06.000 as a social creation. It's tied to ancestry, it's tied 699 00:41:06.039 --> 00:41:08.920 to history, to who they know, and so you know, 700 00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:11.320 they felt like, I'm black and that's what I know, 701 00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:16.000 where sexuality felt more like a oh, like that has 702 00:41:16.119 --> 00:41:18.280 changed for them, right, Because in their minds, they're like, well, 703 00:41:18.280 --> 00:41:21.000 I've forced myself to live straight for some time or 704 00:41:21.039 --> 00:41:23.519 I didn't, you know, so like maybe it'll change. It 705 00:41:23.559 --> 00:41:26.159 seems changeable to them in a way that race doesn't. 706 00:41:27.559 --> 00:41:30.079 I think, in particular, the examples you gave are folks 707 00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:36.159 who are multi racial, right, and they talk about feeling 708 00:41:36.360 --> 00:41:41.519 like even within their families they were getting negative, k 709 00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:45.079 like messages about what it meant to be black, right, 710 00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:48.559 And I think it's a very conscious choice for them 711 00:41:48.599 --> 00:41:51.599 to participate in these black spaces where I'm doing my 712 00:41:51.719 --> 00:41:54.320 work right because and so that's partially why you know, 713 00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:57.360 it's important to me to name on the cover like 714 00:41:57.440 --> 00:42:00.960 this is about black gay identities to talk about their 715 00:42:01.559 --> 00:42:03.960 usage of the term that even if they said something 716 00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:07.920 like I'm biracial or multiracial, they were intentionally trying to 717 00:42:07.960 --> 00:42:12.320 put themselves in black space, right or black communities. They're like, 718 00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:14.159 I'm a member of the black community. And they understood 719 00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:17.119 that they were read in that way. And so I 720 00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:21.199 think race is at the forefront of that, and our 721 00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:25.119 understanding of what is sexuality is shaped by race and 722 00:42:26.159 --> 00:42:29.679 what is normal or considered normal for what racism what 723 00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:32.360 isn't And so they grew up with those massages buds. 724 00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:36.320 Yeah, because you often talk there's another part where you 725 00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:40.559 discuss somebody who was supposed to go away to college 726 00:42:42.119 --> 00:42:44.119 and you talk about that, Yes, I don't want to 727 00:42:44.119 --> 00:42:44.920 give the book away. 728 00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:45.519 Yes, no. 729 00:42:45.639 --> 00:42:49.360 So one of the examples is a young boy who 730 00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:52.519 was graduating from high school want to go away to college, 731 00:42:52.519 --> 00:42:56.800 and his mother basically was like, I'm not letting you 732 00:42:56.840 --> 00:42:59.639 go to college so you can go be gay. And 733 00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:03.400 you know, I was going to stop you, but I 734 00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:05.239 was like, what I say, Now, he's just pay in 735 00:43:05.239 --> 00:43:08.639 your house, right, So you know, it doesn't do anything. 736 00:43:08.679 --> 00:43:11.400 But I think it's important for us to acknowledge these 737 00:43:11.440 --> 00:43:14.079 things where it's like people are changing and shifting the 738 00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:17.920 trajectory of people's lives based on these identities and what 739 00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:21.280 people find acceptable and don't. And one of the other 740 00:43:21.400 --> 00:43:23.320 examples that I talk about in the book is a 741 00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:25.199 young boy I believe, I call him branded in. 742 00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:26.039 The book who. 743 00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:27.840 You Know. 744 00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:31.480 So much of the literature suggests that younger generations are 745 00:43:31.519 --> 00:43:35.239 more accepting and more welcoming around sexuality and that you know, 746 00:43:35.719 --> 00:43:38.880 actual gay people aren't being called fags in schools or 747 00:43:38.920 --> 00:43:41.320 like being you know, people are less homophobic than some way. 748 00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:43.679 And he's a great example because it's. 749 00:43:43.519 --> 00:43:43.880 Like, m. 750 00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:48.320 No, they still doing that, like they're still terrorizing the 751 00:43:48.320 --> 00:43:52.159 gay boys. And he's an example where he talks about 752 00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:54.280 one of the reasons he didn't go off to college 753 00:43:55.480 --> 00:43:57.960 is because he was afraid that it would be worse 754 00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:00.800 like that they were going to you know, now there 755 00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:03.000 are no you know, even more free to make fun 756 00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:05.239 of me or to or to you know, treat me 757 00:44:05.320 --> 00:44:09.320 for So these these encounters really do shift and move 758 00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:12.119 people's you know, life trajectories. 759 00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:13.119 Mm hmmm. 760 00:44:13.719 --> 00:44:19.719 Which is so interesting because oftentimes the black gay escape 761 00:44:19.800 --> 00:44:23.800 is through education, going to school that was mine you know, 762 00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:26.559 I didn't want to come out. You and I have 763 00:44:26.599 --> 00:44:29.679 a similar coming out experience where they we were asked 764 00:44:29.679 --> 00:44:32.679 by our parents and it was about a week or 765 00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:34.239 two before we both had to go to school. So 766 00:44:34.719 --> 00:44:40.719 the night before I was like, I'm going to New 767 00:44:40.760 --> 00:44:44.239 York City. 768 00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:48.440 Wow, do that? That's that's native Black moms. 769 00:44:49.079 --> 00:44:50.119 I mean what a know? 770 00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:54.960 I asked me. It was like the Lord brought a 771 00:44:55.039 --> 00:45:02.440 department to ask okay, order she wanted to know herself? 772 00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:06.679 Did she ever Lord? This is a this might be 773 00:45:06.719 --> 00:45:07.840 a problematic question. 774 00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:08.360 I don't know. 775 00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:12.400 You can tell me it is what tiptoe off to 776 00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:15.519 even ask this in the first place, Like you know 777 00:45:15.559 --> 00:45:18.639 what I'm saying, what did like did she give you 778 00:45:18.760 --> 00:45:19.400 a like A. 779 00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:22.159 Well, she did for me, she did. She had like 780 00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:24.800 a dossier of things, and you know my mother speaks 781 00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:28.519 to me, Yeah she did, because you know, I was 782 00:45:28.559 --> 00:45:31.159 a young ho in two thousand and three. So I 783 00:45:31.239 --> 00:45:34.840 was like, that's what metro PCs had came out. So 784 00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:37.480 I was like, I don't need your singular nonsense and 785 00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:42.119 checking me. I'm gonna talk to the trade on my hotline. Okay. 786 00:45:42.320 --> 00:45:44.440 So she was like, you know, I hear you on 787 00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:47.360 the phone late at night, you know, you know, and 788 00:45:47.440 --> 00:45:49.280 I don't know who you're talking to. And I was 789 00:45:49.440 --> 00:45:53.599 you be on your computer. I'm like, girl, I listening too, 790 00:45:54.000 --> 00:45:59.920 Like I don't know what you want? Yeah what she 791 00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:03.480 and I was like, young girl. Then she sat down 792 00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:08.159 and she immediately went to AIDS and that's usually where 793 00:46:08.199 --> 00:46:10.880 it goes to sickness and had nothing to do with that. 794 00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:14.559 And then for her it was interesting because then after 795 00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:18.840 that she was like, well, I don't know how to 796 00:46:19.400 --> 00:46:23.559 I don't know how to provide you with a toolkit 797 00:46:23.639 --> 00:46:27.239 to prepare you for this. And later on we talked 798 00:46:27.239 --> 00:46:29.119 about this and she was like, you know, as a 799 00:46:29.159 --> 00:46:32.719 single mom, I did my best to prepare you. I 800 00:46:32.760 --> 00:46:36.800 know last night you talked about you know, breaking or 801 00:46:36.960 --> 00:46:42.559 being raised into our single mothers not being considered it 802 00:46:42.639 --> 00:46:44.760 being able to raise a man, that kind of thing. 803 00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:47.760 My mother has always been like, I've raised you to 804 00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:49.320 be a good person, not to be a good man 805 00:46:49.400 --> 00:46:53.039 or anything. So I was like, well that's an a plus, 806 00:46:53.639 --> 00:46:57.800 but b you know, once she got over the idea 807 00:46:57.840 --> 00:47:01.480 of this envision of her son that she had thought 808 00:47:01.559 --> 00:47:04.199 or whatever the fuck she got, she got over it 809 00:47:04.239 --> 00:47:06.679 real quick and then was like Okay, well how can 810 00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:10.599 I be supportive? You know, so it took some It 811 00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:12.239 took a little while, but you know what I mean, 812 00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:15.960 it wasn't immediate, but you know it. I know that 813 00:47:16.119 --> 00:47:19.000 again privileged place and I and I understand that's not 814 00:47:19.079 --> 00:47:20.920 the case for everybody, especially for a lot of people 815 00:47:20.960 --> 00:47:26.119 in this book, but you know, I. 816 00:47:24.639 --> 00:47:25.559 What about you, Torell. 817 00:47:26.599 --> 00:47:30.599 I feel like it was probably a bunch of things 818 00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:32.960 over time, the same things like you want to computer, 819 00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:34.599 you're on the phone, you're doing this, who is that? 820 00:47:35.519 --> 00:47:37.280 One example, though, six out in my mind is a 821 00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:41.719 restaurant we were at when I was a teenager, like 822 00:47:41.840 --> 00:47:45.719 Bennegan's or something said I don't think it, but. 823 00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:47.920 Come and get up Monte Cristo. 824 00:47:53.599 --> 00:47:54.159 Restaurant. 825 00:47:54.880 --> 00:47:57.880 And it's like, clearly this is a gay waiter something 826 00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:00.159 and we're you know, I'm there with my whole family, 827 00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:03.199 and you know, he's looking at me and I'm like whatever. 828 00:48:03.440 --> 00:48:06.280 And then my mother is like to my dad like 829 00:48:06.519 --> 00:48:08.280 why is he looking at my son like this? 830 00:48:08.519 --> 00:48:08.840 Like it? 831 00:48:08.840 --> 00:48:13.639 And I'm like embarrassing or like whatever. But it's one 832 00:48:13.639 --> 00:48:15.320 of those moments where it was like, Okay, there's just 833 00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:20.239 like an amalgamation of like different things happening, and so 834 00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:22.000 I feel like she just was like, I'm going to 835 00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:23.559 ask because if I'm not going to wait for you 836 00:48:23.599 --> 00:48:26.760 to tell me, okay, tell me today before you go 837 00:48:26.840 --> 00:48:27.400 to college. 838 00:48:27.880 --> 00:48:29.320 Okay. 839 00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:30.719 So I think you know this. 840 00:48:30.920 --> 00:48:34.880 I appreciate y'all sharing that, Yeah, because I think you know. 841 00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:37.440 One thing that I thought was cool read it through 842 00:48:37.480 --> 00:48:40.840 the book was I feel like I was wondering I 843 00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:44.679 should say, I feel like you're very explicit around like 844 00:48:44.840 --> 00:48:49.800 racial identity, sexual identity, but I think like embedded within 845 00:48:50.639 --> 00:48:59.119 like gay as a sexual identity, is this idea of gender, manhood, masculinity. 846 00:48:59.519 --> 00:49:01.519 It was, and I know that that comes out in 847 00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:04.119 some of the stories and some of like you know, 848 00:49:04.199 --> 00:49:06.400 as you're talking about the people that you were working 849 00:49:06.440 --> 00:49:10.159 with specifically, But curious as to whether that was like 850 00:49:10.559 --> 00:49:13.519 a choice, Like were you intentional around like maintaining the 851 00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:18.920 focus on like racial and sexual identity versus like explicitly 852 00:49:19.159 --> 00:49:24.800 exploring like concepts of masculinity and manhood as another layer. 853 00:49:25.719 --> 00:49:30.079 That's such a great question and I struggled with how 854 00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:32.639 to address it very much. So one of the questions 855 00:49:32.679 --> 00:49:35.079 I asked people in the interview was, like, what are 856 00:49:35.119 --> 00:49:38.280 some of the positive things about being a man. 857 00:49:39.639 --> 00:49:41.239 Or whatever gender they use. 858 00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:45.800 Yes, but they all had answer love to hear it, 859 00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:51.960 but the answers were always things that they didn't have 860 00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:56.440 to go through because they're not women. So it wasn't 861 00:49:56.480 --> 00:49:59.320 like there was anything inherently good about being a man. 862 00:49:59.360 --> 00:50:02.320 It was like we get I get paid more than 863 00:50:02.559 --> 00:50:04.800 women do, or I don't have to have a period, 864 00:50:05.519 --> 00:50:09.079 you know, like those, and so I. 865 00:50:08.360 --> 00:50:11.199 Real manage that ships. 866 00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:16.239 A lot. 867 00:50:17.440 --> 00:50:19.119 But I don't even know if they even framed it 868 00:50:19.159 --> 00:50:21.679 as like this is male privilege, you know, it's like 869 00:50:21.679 --> 00:50:24.679 one of those things like No, it was more like, well, 870 00:50:24.679 --> 00:50:26.519 thank god, I don't have to go through that, and 871 00:50:26.760 --> 00:50:30.519 you know I could have done more and probably should 872 00:50:30.519 --> 00:50:34.159 have done more with gender like explicitly in the world. 873 00:50:34.440 --> 00:50:38.239 No, No, you just give yourself a pathway. 874 00:50:38.440 --> 00:50:40.199 I think it is another another. 875 00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:45.360 To do another, you know, like or how you the 876 00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:46.159 work of implication. 877 00:50:46.280 --> 00:50:49.159 I think that that would be exactly dope, because I'm 878 00:50:49.239 --> 00:50:53.599 not I don't think it was. I'm not qualifying the choice. 879 00:50:53.639 --> 00:50:55.519 I think you know what you know, but I agree 880 00:50:55.559 --> 00:50:55.840 with you. 881 00:50:56.440 --> 00:50:58.679 That's the question I asked myself to So don't know 882 00:50:59.119 --> 00:51:01.400 if the critique is all so from within right with 883 00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:05.239 this question of like how do I deal with, you know, 884 00:51:06.639 --> 00:51:10.920 not framing the conversation about manhood as explicitly as I 885 00:51:10.960 --> 00:51:13.760 could have, I think, And it was always challenging because 886 00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:16.039 I think it does come out in the narratives and 887 00:51:16.039 --> 00:51:18.000 in the stories of what it means to be. 888 00:51:17.960 --> 00:51:19.880 A man yea, or how they learn. 889 00:51:20.239 --> 00:51:24.480 But yeah, it was a hard question. It was a 890 00:51:24.519 --> 00:51:27.119 deep question for them. And I still struggle with, Okay, 891 00:51:27.159 --> 00:51:30.719 how best do you present that the thing that men 892 00:51:30.840 --> 00:51:36.159 are excited about being men is rooted in like misogyny 893 00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:38.280 or something like, you know, like this male privileged thing. 894 00:51:39.679 --> 00:51:42.639 And so I don't delve into that as much. And 895 00:51:42.719 --> 00:51:44.960 partially also one of the reasons why I don't delve 896 00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:48.639 into that is that race and sexuality presented as such 897 00:51:49.880 --> 00:51:55.760 clearly salient things that you know, there's been a much 898 00:51:55.840 --> 00:52:00.199 larger discourse around uh, you know, who gets to be black? 899 00:52:00.199 --> 00:52:01.079 Who doesn't get to be black? 900 00:52:01.119 --> 00:52:04.199 And I feel like that's changing right over, like this 901 00:52:04.239 --> 00:52:07.840 new generation of like you got four black grandmothers, you know, 902 00:52:08.800 --> 00:52:11.559 like who's there who can be And so it was 903 00:52:11.599 --> 00:52:15.199 important for me to address the racial piece. Yeah, and 904 00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:17.679 I think I try to point out that to me 905 00:52:17.760 --> 00:52:20.079 the gender piece. Isn't the privilege like when we first 906 00:52:20.119 --> 00:52:21.920 started about this, which is like that there are even 907 00:52:21.960 --> 00:52:25.480 spaces where they can go, yeah, and that are women. Yeah, 908 00:52:25.519 --> 00:52:27.199 those places don't exist in the same way. 909 00:52:27.719 --> 00:52:29.519 And I mean, I'm only you know, like you said, 910 00:52:29.559 --> 00:52:31.639 you started your data collection in twenty twelve, and so 911 00:52:31.880 --> 00:52:34.000 you know, the thing about research is that it's like 912 00:52:34.880 --> 00:52:38.480 contextually specific, right, So I'm just thinking about it now 913 00:52:38.519 --> 00:52:40.800 through the lens of you know, this age where we're 914 00:52:40.840 --> 00:52:44.039 in the Mano sphere and what you know, what that 915 00:52:44.119 --> 00:52:46.280 lens would add to this conversation. 916 00:52:47.559 --> 00:52:48.639 So that's why I asked them. 917 00:52:48.639 --> 00:52:52.800 I think it's really fascinating because I'm learning a lot 918 00:52:53.159 --> 00:52:56.280 about even you know, even the work that we've done 919 00:52:56.280 --> 00:52:58.920 before since around just thinking about intersectionality and all the 920 00:52:58.960 --> 00:53:03.920 ways that likely race and our gender identity, also class 921 00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:07.559 identity also like you know, you know, all of these things. 922 00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:10.519 You know, it was fascinating to think about it through 923 00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:13.000 this lens. That also adding the layer of what it 924 00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:17.119 means for stigmas and how we collectively, individually and collectively 925 00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:18.840 position ourselves. 926 00:53:18.519 --> 00:53:19.280 To reject them. 927 00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:21.719 I just feel like, you know, there's a lot of 928 00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:24.199 that's a lot of there's a lot of good work, 929 00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:29.000 and so would be curious to know, like, now that 930 00:53:29.039 --> 00:53:34.960 this is out and into the world, are you already 931 00:53:35.079 --> 00:53:37.199 thinking because you know the way you know how you 932 00:53:37.239 --> 00:53:40.519 know academic our you know, they don't let us finish 933 00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:42.760 one thing before they be asking which. 934 00:53:42.599 --> 00:53:45.239 Are you gonna have another baby? Going to be? 935 00:53:48.079 --> 00:53:49.559 Yeah? 936 00:53:49.880 --> 00:53:51.480 So I definitely have a bunch of other projects, but 937 00:53:51.480 --> 00:53:53.000 I think the one that probably comes to mind right 938 00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:56.400 now that's related to this is, you know, in the 939 00:53:56.519 --> 00:53:59.079 in the book, I talk a lot about religion as well, 940 00:53:59.119 --> 00:54:01.039 because as a source of some of those stigmas and 941 00:54:01.079 --> 00:54:03.800 how those go and so because people say, well, why 942 00:54:03.800 --> 00:54:08.360 do people keep going to these churches and places if 943 00:54:08.440 --> 00:54:13.280 this if they're having these negative experiences, so highlighting you know, 944 00:54:13.480 --> 00:54:16.159 but you know, the spirituality and having a spiritual practice 945 00:54:16.199 --> 00:54:18.960 really does matter, and community matters, and so for many 946 00:54:18.960 --> 00:54:21.360 people it's hard to leave. But I started to question, 947 00:54:21.480 --> 00:54:23.360 like what about the people who do leave and say. 948 00:54:23.239 --> 00:54:24.880 I'm not Christian anymore. 949 00:54:25.039 --> 00:54:26.440 I don't know if I want to do that in 950 00:54:26.440 --> 00:54:28.760 that way, And so I had I have a project 951 00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:36.400 on you know, black spiritual Black spirituality that's rooted in 952 00:54:36.480 --> 00:54:41.639 things like who do who do working conjure and then 953 00:54:41.800 --> 00:54:46.239 African traditional or diasporic fates like if those things. And 954 00:54:46.280 --> 00:54:50.920 so we interviewed like one hundred and nine black folks 955 00:54:50.920 --> 00:54:56.199 across the US who are practicing different African diasporic fates 956 00:54:56.320 --> 00:55:00.920 in some way, and that will most be the next book. 957 00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:04.159 And I will say that one thing is the majority 958 00:55:04.159 --> 00:55:07.840 of them in that project identify as women, sis, women 959 00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:14.039 or a gender and something non binary. And you know, 960 00:55:14.360 --> 00:55:17.840 it's been an interesting counter to this project or like 961 00:55:17.840 --> 00:55:21.639 the build off, like an offshoot, because sexuality also becomes 962 00:55:21.679 --> 00:55:24.079 like a clear reason why that's happened, and that gender 963 00:55:24.199 --> 00:55:27.039 is definitely a big key reason why, you know, women, 964 00:55:27.840 --> 00:55:30.639 I cannot go to this church. I got to find 965 00:55:30.639 --> 00:55:34.199 something else. And so it's race, gender, and sexuality come 966 00:55:34.239 --> 00:55:37.360 together very clearly in that to say, no, I have 967 00:55:37.519 --> 00:55:41.719 to find a practice that fits better with me. And 968 00:55:41.880 --> 00:55:43.960 you know, I have a paper from this project that 969 00:55:44.039 --> 00:55:47.280 just came out and the quote is, you know, a 970 00:55:47.320 --> 00:55:51.239 person's God should look like them, And that was one 971 00:55:51.320 --> 00:55:53.679 of the things that one of the respondents said in 972 00:55:53.679 --> 00:55:56.239 the interview. You know, she said, I'm very clear on 973 00:55:56.280 --> 00:55:59.159 my on that fact, like a person's God should look 974 00:55:59.280 --> 00:56:04.039 like them. And that also means including women and and 975 00:56:04.159 --> 00:56:07.679 many of the religions were brought up in it doesn't. 976 00:56:08.159 --> 00:56:10.559 Yeah, so they're there, there's there there, I think. 977 00:56:10.599 --> 00:56:12.880 I think, uh, there's a lot of spaces, and I think, 978 00:56:12.920 --> 00:56:15.440 you know, millennials are in such a space right, and 979 00:56:15.480 --> 00:56:20.199 there's a lot of reckoning and reckoning and and sort 980 00:56:20.199 --> 00:56:24.719 of like recalibration, you know, growing up as a church baby. 981 00:56:24.760 --> 00:56:29.360 There's there's ways in which I am interrogating and problematizing, 982 00:56:29.519 --> 00:56:30.280 you know, some of the. 983 00:56:30.280 --> 00:56:33.480 Things that were very normal and core. 984 00:56:33.400 --> 00:56:37.320 To my own sort of upbringing and identity development, but 985 00:56:37.440 --> 00:56:39.719 you know, experiencing the dissonance of sort of what you 986 00:56:39.800 --> 00:56:42.320 were taught and what you were raised in and what 987 00:56:42.360 --> 00:56:45.719 your experiences and thinking about that through the lens of 988 00:56:45.800 --> 00:56:48.039 like power and patriarchy and all the things. 989 00:56:48.119 --> 00:56:50.199 And so, uh, that's dope. 990 00:56:50.239 --> 00:56:52.880 I think, you know, just just naming that, you know, 991 00:56:52.960 --> 00:56:56.199 this is work that should continue on because there's a 992 00:56:56.199 --> 00:56:58.000 lot for us to talk about as it relates to 993 00:56:58.079 --> 00:57:00.000 sort of identities and stigmas and all the. 994 00:57:03.320 --> 00:57:03.519 Yes. 995 00:57:03.760 --> 00:57:06.280 Very much so every single day as you were just speaking, 996 00:57:06.320 --> 00:57:08.840 I was thinking about just running my rolodex in my 997 00:57:08.960 --> 00:57:13.280 head of many folks I know who. I guess for 998 00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:15.480 all you know, for lack of a better have left 999 00:57:15.519 --> 00:57:21.480 the church to explore other faiths, right, and how demonized 1000 00:57:21.519 --> 00:57:25.079 that also is as well, you know what I mean, 1001 00:57:25.280 --> 00:57:29.719 if they're not respected as faiths and so that. Yeah, 1002 00:57:29.840 --> 00:57:33.719 that that's a very interesting intersection when you add queerness 1003 00:57:33.800 --> 00:57:37.119 mixed in with that as well. I'm very excited for 1004 00:57:37.159 --> 00:57:39.599 that upcoming project, but I won't continue to ask you 1005 00:57:39.639 --> 00:57:43.199 about it because that's annoying worry. 1006 00:57:45.400 --> 00:57:48.639 Okay, Yeah, I even with the add on Kia saying 1007 00:57:48.639 --> 00:57:50.199 I would love for you to expand I know this 1008 00:57:50.280 --> 00:57:53.079 is just a wishless but class and because in the book, 1009 00:57:56.159 --> 00:58:00.280 I used to work for a gay nonprofit and I'm 1010 00:58:00.320 --> 00:58:02.159 gonna tell you the rich gays don't show up there 1011 00:58:02.199 --> 00:58:04.760 unless they work there or they're on the board. Right, 1012 00:58:05.280 --> 00:58:08.599 So I want to talk. I want this disparity between 1013 00:58:11.679 --> 00:58:21.480 uh for crass terminology, rich gays and poor ga I 1014 00:58:21.519 --> 00:58:24.159 often think about that in the terms of the dating pool, 1015 00:58:24.800 --> 00:58:29.880 because oftentimes people complain about like, oh it's sour, it's 1016 00:58:29.920 --> 00:58:35.360 a cesspool of But that's because you're not crossing the 1017 00:58:35.440 --> 00:58:38.599 ten right, or you're not or you're not going to 1018 00:58:38.719 --> 00:58:42.679 the Bronx or you not you know, doing going to 1019 00:58:42.760 --> 00:58:44.559 the South Side Chicago. You know what I mean, Like 1020 00:58:44.960 --> 00:58:50.400 there are there there class disparities impact so much other 1021 00:58:50.440 --> 00:58:53.559 stuff in our community. And also why I think all 1022 00:58:53.599 --> 00:58:57.760 gays hate each other. But that's another sociological nor. 1023 00:58:58.760 --> 00:59:00.800 When you were saying that, Joe, maybe think of like 1024 00:59:01.039 --> 00:59:03.320 you know, when you talk about dating and crossing, I'm like, 1025 00:59:03.320 --> 00:59:05.760 I'm thinking of what a millionaire matchmaker with like Patty 1026 00:59:05.840 --> 00:59:10.239 Staner and go to the bar across from the hospital. 1027 00:59:10.360 --> 00:59:12.000 Like that's what y'all needed. You can't go down to 1028 00:59:12.039 --> 00:59:14.320 the local bar to find you know, if you're mixing, 1029 00:59:14.360 --> 00:59:17.119 you got to go by the law firms downtown to 1030 00:59:17.119 --> 00:59:18.039 find you a partner. 1031 00:59:19.000 --> 00:59:21.079 You also find you a man who likes to peel 1032 00:59:21.079 --> 00:59:22.800 on you immediately on the first night. 1033 00:59:22.800 --> 00:59:30.760 Because yeah, all in all seriousness, I want to talk 1034 00:59:30.880 --> 00:59:35.360 about the fact that you took very lofty work and 1035 00:59:35.400 --> 00:59:37.280 made it palatable for folks to read. 1036 00:59:38.519 --> 00:59:39.559 I tried, you. 1037 00:59:39.679 --> 00:59:43.199 Know what I meaning, Like you made like this is 1038 00:59:43.199 --> 00:59:49.280 an academic ship, Yeah, but you made this exactly. You 1039 00:59:49.360 --> 00:59:53.960 made this for for regular deglar folks. Yeah, to get 1040 00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:55.679 the ship that they need, you know what I mean? 1041 00:59:55.679 --> 00:59:59.320 And I thank you for that I appreciate, but I'm 1042 00:59:59.320 --> 00:59:59.719 sure that. 1043 00:59:59.719 --> 01:00:02.320 Was an it was I think, you know, for me, 1044 01:00:02.480 --> 01:00:05.440 it was It's always important to me to try to 1045 01:00:05.480 --> 01:00:07.360 write things in a way that the people who are 1046 01:00:07.360 --> 01:00:09.440 part of the project can see themselves in it and 1047 01:00:09.519 --> 01:00:13.800 also understand what I'm saying right, And so the ideas 1048 01:00:13.840 --> 01:00:17.119 in the book I presented to the people in my project, 1049 01:00:17.880 --> 01:00:20.280 they read different versions of it at different points in time. 1050 01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:23.679 They knew what I was talking about, and so I 1051 01:00:23.719 --> 01:00:25.760 always felt like I didn't want to come out with 1052 01:00:25.800 --> 01:00:29.519 something that they would say, no, that doesn't sound like me, 1053 01:00:29.719 --> 01:00:31.760 or that doesn't sound like what my experience was, or no, 1054 01:00:31.840 --> 01:00:34.840 I don't agree with that part of it, and I 1055 01:00:34.840 --> 01:00:37.960 think there is there's space to disagree about my interpretation 1056 01:00:38.039 --> 01:00:39.519 of things. But I also wanted them to be able 1057 01:00:39.559 --> 01:00:41.760 to see themselves. So like some of them, some of 1058 01:00:41.760 --> 01:00:44.599 the guys who I interviewed, like were texting me earlier today. 1059 01:00:44.480 --> 01:00:47.320 Like I saw this on that page, I think that's me. 1060 01:00:47.400 --> 01:00:50.599 Or whatever, you know, like like identifying quotes that they 1061 01:00:50.599 --> 01:00:54.039 think are them and I love that. And sometimes they're 1062 01:00:54.119 --> 01:00:56.039 right and sometimes they're wrong, and I love that they 1063 01:00:56.039 --> 01:00:59.280 can be wrong about it because I think it just 1064 01:00:59.360 --> 01:01:01.840 highlights that, Yeah, your experience was not just you. You're 1065 01:01:01.880 --> 01:01:06.280 not the only local told that who held that way exactly. 1066 01:01:06.760 --> 01:01:09.880 How being that you worked on this, you started this 1067 01:01:09.960 --> 01:01:15.559 project fourteen years ago, you know, first of all, was 1068 01:01:15.679 --> 01:01:20.440 this what what what came to full fruition? Was this 1069 01:01:20.519 --> 01:01:24.760 at your original plan and thought process? Or how like 1070 01:01:24.800 --> 01:01:26.639 what was the evolution of that? Because you're not the 1071 01:01:26.679 --> 01:01:28.360 same person you were fourteen years. 1072 01:01:28.199 --> 01:01:30.480 Ago, No, which is why it's so hard. 1073 01:01:30.599 --> 01:01:32.480 You know, think about the book where I'm like, yeah 1074 01:01:32.480 --> 01:01:34.480 and I talk about this, and I'm like, did I 1075 01:01:34.519 --> 01:01:36.679 take that out of there? Like, you know all the time, 1076 01:01:36.719 --> 01:01:40.000 because it's been a work in progress. When I started out, 1077 01:01:40.039 --> 01:01:44.239 I really thought the project was going to be about 1078 01:01:44.440 --> 01:01:48.000 a younger population, because the organization I was focused on 1079 01:01:48.480 --> 01:01:50.559 advertised themselves that way as the. 1080 01:01:50.800 --> 01:01:54.719 Nigga you was younger, you were fourteen years I was. 1081 01:01:54.960 --> 01:01:58.360 I was, I was like twenty one, like you know exactly, 1082 01:01:58.440 --> 01:02:00.559 you know, if I'm like, okay. 1083 01:02:00.280 --> 01:02:02.360 They're gonna be like fourteen to twenty kind of. 1084 01:02:02.639 --> 01:02:04.239 And then I got there and it was like eighteen 1085 01:02:04.280 --> 01:02:06.280 or thirty, and I was like smack in the middle 1086 01:02:06.320 --> 01:02:10.039 of the age range. And you know, I started off 1087 01:02:10.119 --> 01:02:14.519 graduate school thinking about I was trained as an elementary educator, 1088 01:02:15.320 --> 01:02:17.599 and so I was interested in what do people do 1089 01:02:18.039 --> 01:02:20.519 in out of school time? And so I thought this 1090 01:02:20.639 --> 01:02:22.679 was like an after school, out of school time place 1091 01:02:22.719 --> 01:02:25.079 because of the way they were talking about the population. 1092 01:02:25.199 --> 01:02:26.400 And then when I got there, I was like, no, 1093 01:02:26.639 --> 01:02:30.880 they're all graduated, you know, like they're all basically adults. 1094 01:02:30.920 --> 01:02:35.039 And so it shifted, and it was important to me 1095 01:02:35.199 --> 01:02:38.559 to kind of just follow the direction of what was happening. 1096 01:02:38.599 --> 01:02:40.840 And so that's kind of how across the book I 1097 01:02:40.920 --> 01:02:43.800 end up starting in the organizational space and then turning 1098 01:02:43.880 --> 01:02:48.039 to media and then turning to these family configurations because 1099 01:02:49.559 --> 01:02:53.599 I was following what seemed to be important to them 1100 01:02:53.760 --> 01:02:57.719 as it was going and progressing. I think I've in 1101 01:02:57.760 --> 01:03:00.039 some ways there's more of me in the book and 1102 01:03:00.239 --> 01:03:01.719 would have been in the book if I had written 1103 01:03:01.800 --> 01:03:05.559 it exactly a while ago. Like I got pressed on 1104 01:03:05.599 --> 01:03:07.159 that a lot, and I try to make it clear 1105 01:03:07.199 --> 01:03:11.000 it's like I'm telling other people's story and my experience 1106 01:03:11.000 --> 01:03:12.679 of encountering now, this is not my story. 1107 01:03:12.679 --> 01:03:13.320 I didn't grow up. 1108 01:03:13.400 --> 01:03:17.039 There was no organization like Uplifted La in the book 1109 01:03:17.039 --> 01:03:19.639 that I talk about in Baltimore like I was, and 1110 01:03:19.679 --> 01:03:23.559 I wasn't going to community space with other black, gay 1111 01:03:23.639 --> 01:03:26.360 and queer folks as a team that was And so 1112 01:03:26.679 --> 01:03:29.199 it's not my story, but I'm I use how I 1113 01:03:29.239 --> 01:03:32.599 grew up as a kind of a lens to to 1114 01:03:32.719 --> 01:03:34.400 intergrogate what they were going through. 1115 01:03:34.920 --> 01:03:35.880 Mm hmmm hm. 1116 01:03:36.880 --> 01:03:39.719 So you do talk and you do pivot, like you said, 1117 01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:43.960 to media and stuff like that through Noah's Ark. I 1118 01:03:44.000 --> 01:03:47.079 know that's a staple in here, and there's I know 1119 01:03:47.119 --> 01:03:49.159 there's not a lot of black gay media, right, we 1120 01:03:49.239 --> 01:03:53.280 have Pose and Tangerine and a couple of other things. 1121 01:03:53.360 --> 01:03:58.639 But you talk about Noah's Ark being like a possibility model. 1122 01:03:58.719 --> 01:04:01.840 I know you have a different term analogy for it, 1123 01:04:01.880 --> 01:04:04.239 but can you expound on that. I think it's important 1124 01:04:04.320 --> 01:04:09.320 because a lot of times, or whatever gender expression or 1125 01:04:09.480 --> 01:04:15.159 sexuality orientation you identify as a lot of times the 1126 01:04:15.239 --> 01:04:19.960 first time you encounter something is through television. Like everybody's 1127 01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:23.039 first drag queen is Reupaul, right, she came on the 1128 01:04:23.039 --> 01:04:25.079 scene in nineteen ninety, So it's kind of. 1129 01:04:25.039 --> 01:04:31.119 Like yeah, yeah, crazy, yeah, yeah, no, that's true. Media 1130 01:04:31.199 --> 01:04:34.000 does play that role. Like I was joking, say, you 1131 01:04:34.039 --> 01:04:36.360 know when I was a teenager. I remember Queer's Folk 1132 01:04:36.440 --> 01:04:40.519 coming up, and I remember watching well, I remember watching 1133 01:04:40.599 --> 01:04:43.119 Queer's Folks start and I was like, what is going 1134 01:04:43.159 --> 01:04:47.079 on in this club? And is darkroom doing this sexual 1135 01:04:47.079 --> 01:04:48.920 stuff in public? I said, this is gay? 1136 01:04:49.719 --> 01:04:52.360 If this is gay, I don't think I'm that it. 1137 01:04:52.679 --> 01:04:55.800 So, you know, when Noah's Ark came out, it was, 1138 01:04:56.079 --> 01:04:58.280 you know, a moment for me to go, wait a minute, now, okay, 1139 01:04:58.280 --> 01:04:59.239 now wait a bit day. 1140 01:04:59.719 --> 01:05:03.000 Feel like as. 1141 01:05:06.800 --> 01:05:11.679 I can get with okay one point, that's exactly it. 1142 01:05:11.840 --> 01:05:14.760 And so that's how I felt, right. And so I 1143 01:05:14.800 --> 01:05:17.239 think media, I know its Oar in particular, is such 1144 01:05:17.280 --> 01:05:21.159 a foundational frame of reference because it was the first 1145 01:05:21.159 --> 01:05:24.679 scripted TV show on Logo Logo of course being that 1146 01:05:24.840 --> 01:05:30.000 first gay dedicated channel, and to have a show that's 1147 01:05:30.079 --> 01:05:33.880 centered on the lives of black gay men, a group 1148 01:05:33.960 --> 01:05:37.119 of them, not just one, meant that it expanded our 1149 01:05:37.199 --> 01:05:40.280 understandings of who are black queer characters? And black queer 1150 01:05:40.400 --> 01:05:43.119 characters have always played a big role I think in film, 1151 01:05:43.760 --> 01:05:48.000 but they're often one exactly. So I think of my 1152 01:05:48.079 --> 01:05:50.519 favorite like Wayman in a low down, dirty shame, or 1153 01:05:50.599 --> 01:05:55.480 like you know these like these characters that are often caricatures. 1154 01:05:55.079 --> 01:05:56.800 And they're the only one. 1155 01:05:59.440 --> 01:06:02.000 And Noah's Ark gave an opportunity to say, we don't 1156 01:06:02.000 --> 01:06:04.320 have to put all of the stereotypes and challenges on 1157 01:06:04.440 --> 01:06:07.800 issues on one body. Right now, we can see a 1158 01:06:07.840 --> 01:06:11.039 group of them. They're masculine, some are masculine, some are feminine, 1159 01:06:11.039 --> 01:06:13.960 more feminine. Some of them are navigating what it means to. 1160 01:06:14.159 --> 01:06:15.920 Build a family, to not have a family. 1161 01:06:16.239 --> 01:06:19.960 They're getting married on Noah's Ark before gay marriage is legalized, 1162 01:06:20.320 --> 01:06:24.199 right sore, showing us possibility. 1163 01:06:25.039 --> 01:06:33.599 I'm important, Storm and your shields, and when time comes 1164 01:06:33.639 --> 01:06:38.280 to go to the laws home of the Ancestors, I 1165 01:06:38.280 --> 01:06:38.840 will answer. 1166 01:06:41.679 --> 01:06:43.800 And the show had been critiqued a lot for being 1167 01:06:43.840 --> 01:06:47.599 maybe too fantastical, not dealing with the real challenge and 1168 01:06:48.320 --> 01:06:51.079 issues that were happening. But you know, I argue in 1169 01:06:51.119 --> 01:06:54.000 the book that that's what I call it dream capacity 1170 01:06:54.000 --> 01:06:56.320 building in the book because I say, it's important for 1171 01:06:56.320 --> 01:06:59.159 you to be able to envision a life without the 1172 01:06:59.199 --> 01:07:03.480 burden of those sigmas. And like, what is a gay wedding? 1173 01:07:03.920 --> 01:07:05.599 You know, what do I want a gay wedding to be? 1174 01:07:05.719 --> 01:07:07.719 That gave us a model of it. Now, it was 1175 01:07:07.840 --> 01:07:11.000 very based on like what we understand the traditional weddings 1176 01:07:11.000 --> 01:07:13.840 in some way, but if you've never seen one, how 1177 01:07:13.840 --> 01:07:15.719 do you know, or if you don't have an example 1178 01:07:15.760 --> 01:07:18.400 of what that life to be like, how do you 1179 01:07:18.440 --> 01:07:20.400 expand your mind around that? And so I thought it 1180 01:07:20.440 --> 01:07:23.679 was important to highlight that through the critique of the show. 1181 01:07:23.840 --> 01:07:27.559 Even though it was like unrealistic in some ways, it 1182 01:07:27.599 --> 01:07:31.679 really did shape people's growing up and their life experiences. 1183 01:07:31.679 --> 01:07:33.400 One of the boys in the book says, I moved 1184 01:07:33.400 --> 01:07:36.760 to la because of Noazar. That's when he saw and 1185 01:07:36.800 --> 01:07:41.800 he believed it. It wasn't true, but it changed his 1186 01:07:42.360 --> 01:07:43.719 life trajectory. 1187 01:07:44.039 --> 01:07:49.559 No, it's true. It happened to me. Yeah, like I 1188 01:07:50.559 --> 01:07:52.880 you know, I was a young gay watching Noah's ark. 1189 01:07:52.960 --> 01:07:55.960 This is great and then fast forward he the director 1190 01:07:56.000 --> 01:08:00.599 that I end up working together. But I it is important. 1191 01:08:00.599 --> 01:08:03.519 You know, we always talk about how representation matters, right, 1192 01:08:03.639 --> 01:08:06.159 and and I think this is one of those things. 1193 01:08:06.199 --> 01:08:09.840 Logo was a white network in general, I'll take the 1194 01:08:09.880 --> 01:08:11.960 gay out of it. Is you having the first black 1195 01:08:12.000 --> 01:08:19.079 show on this white progressive network? Yeah, yeah, No, it 1196 01:08:19.199 --> 01:08:23.520 is fighting fighting against all odds through advertising and ship 1197 01:08:23.720 --> 01:08:29.239 like that, displaying this this world that is a possibility 1198 01:08:29.279 --> 01:08:32.840 that a lot of people in early os didn't think 1199 01:08:32.880 --> 01:08:34.680 that we can expand our minds to to even get 1200 01:08:34.720 --> 01:08:37.039 to that point. You know, you're still living in the struggle. 1201 01:08:37.319 --> 01:08:39.640 Yeah, and to that point and your point to Rell 1202 01:08:39.760 --> 01:08:42.720 as well, you know where you said people felt like 1203 01:08:42.760 --> 01:08:46.720 the show was to fantasticalize. Is that what you said? 1204 01:08:46.800 --> 01:08:49.880 Yeahized? 1205 01:08:50.119 --> 01:08:54.720 Right? White holes get to have whimsy all the fucking time. Well, yeah, 1206 01:08:54.760 --> 01:08:57.439 they go good a job as an intern and then 1207 01:08:57.479 --> 01:09:00.359 all of a sudden they are fashion iea and going 1208 01:09:00.399 --> 01:09:03.520 to Paris or they're turning Paris down. I don't know, 1209 01:09:03.720 --> 01:09:08.800 white people get to do whatever. Would exit maybe watch that, 1210 01:09:09.319 --> 01:09:13.800 But why can't some things be sensationalized? Like what's the 1211 01:09:13.880 --> 01:09:17.039 problem with that? If we're watching Monster in Law, where 1212 01:09:17.359 --> 01:09:19.279 you know, they get to go and they're living on 1213 01:09:19.319 --> 01:09:21.279 a ranch and then they're gonna have this wedding and 1214 01:09:21.279 --> 01:09:23.199 then these are the things that went wrong. But they 1215 01:09:23.359 --> 01:09:25.760 I hate the term first world problems because it's problematic, 1216 01:09:26.000 --> 01:09:29.840 but they are like very privileged problems. You know, why 1217 01:09:29.880 --> 01:09:33.920 can't why can't that also be represented as well? That's 1218 01:09:33.920 --> 01:09:35.359 a flood. I feel like that's. 1219 01:09:35.239 --> 01:09:41.880 Flood that would like the you know, who do we 1220 01:09:41.960 --> 01:09:45.279 have enough room yet to have representation in that way, 1221 01:09:45.359 --> 01:09:46.800 and so I talked about that a little bit, which 1222 01:09:46.840 --> 01:09:50.920 is like the guy struggled with this question of can 1223 01:09:50.960 --> 01:09:54.640 we show negative things like you know, you know today 1224 01:09:54.680 --> 01:09:56.920 we have shows that have been created with it's like here's. 1225 01:09:56.760 --> 01:09:59.920 A group of black a men and they are drum 1226 01:10:00.119 --> 01:10:01.960 dealers or they're like criminal, you know. 1227 01:10:02.000 --> 01:10:04.680 I was like, it's you know, I interviewed a creator 1228 01:10:04.680 --> 01:10:06.720 of a web series who was like, I wanted to 1229 01:10:06.760 --> 01:10:10.479 do like a black gay the wire, like all the characters, 1230 01:10:10.600 --> 01:10:14.439 you know, that kind of thing. And in some ways 1231 01:10:14.520 --> 01:10:17.159 people bought with that, right. They were like, I don't 1232 01:10:17.199 --> 01:10:20.119 think we have enough. There's not enough good representation out 1233 01:10:20.119 --> 01:10:23.720 there yet to be trying to say people could be 1234 01:10:23.760 --> 01:10:24.840 bad too kind of. 1235 01:10:24.760 --> 01:10:27.039 Thing, and I think I don't think we're there, and 1236 01:10:27.079 --> 01:10:28.119 people struggle with that. 1237 01:10:29.720 --> 01:10:30.560 I struggle with. 1238 01:10:30.520 --> 01:10:36.159 That, you know, I think, I don't know, I just uh, 1239 01:10:36.239 --> 01:10:37.960 this takes me think, right. So I think there's a 1240 01:10:38.000 --> 01:10:40.159 lot of that, A lot going on I know, in 1241 01:10:40.199 --> 01:10:43.199 like education research, a lot going on around this idea 1242 01:10:43.359 --> 01:10:46.800 of imagination sort of being the bad rock of resistance 1243 01:10:46.800 --> 01:10:48.119 and progress, y'all know. 1244 01:10:48.640 --> 01:10:51.399 Friendto the show, doctor Charles H. F. 1245 01:10:51.520 --> 01:10:55.119 Davis and you know, our friend Candice Hall are doing 1246 01:10:55.159 --> 01:10:59.239 a project I'll call imagine Futures, right, and so it's challenging, 1247 01:10:59.439 --> 01:11:02.920 you know, black academics to imagine a future, right, and 1248 01:11:02.960 --> 01:11:06.560 so like you know, it's pushing back on this idea 1249 01:11:06.720 --> 01:11:09.800 that we have to sort of stay in reality. And 1250 01:11:09.880 --> 01:11:11.600 like Jay said, like what would it look like for 1251 01:11:11.680 --> 01:11:14.279 us to imagine the future that we want in the academy, 1252 01:11:14.560 --> 01:11:17.319 in the world, et cetera, et cetera. I want I 1253 01:11:17.359 --> 01:11:19.159 say that to say one of the things that I 1254 01:11:19.239 --> 01:11:23.880 think is a key feature of your book that I 1255 01:11:23.920 --> 01:11:26.279 want to make sure in the spirit of, you know, 1256 01:11:26.840 --> 01:11:29.720 helping people understand it as a as a choice, like 1257 01:11:29.760 --> 01:11:33.640 you know, in the talk about I think your work 1258 01:11:33.640 --> 01:11:37.520 as an ethnographer and why that's so important for a 1259 01:11:37.560 --> 01:11:38.159 book like this. 1260 01:11:39.479 --> 01:11:43.359 Yeah, no, I you know, ethnography, I always say, I 1261 01:11:43.439 --> 01:11:47.319 teach the ethnography class at the university in our department, 1262 01:11:47.359 --> 01:11:50.199 and so I was, you know, ethnography means writing culture, 1263 01:11:50.239 --> 01:11:53.840 and I think ethnography and observing how people are living 1264 01:11:54.199 --> 01:11:57.560 their real, everyday lives is such a key way to 1265 01:11:57.720 --> 01:12:01.479 understand what's happening. And you know, I write a bit 1266 01:12:01.560 --> 01:12:03.880 in the methods, and I also use this in my classes, 1267 01:12:03.960 --> 01:12:08.560 which is, you know, I think if I hadn't done ethnography, 1268 01:12:08.600 --> 01:12:11.840 I wouldn't have as accurate data about what people were 1269 01:12:11.880 --> 01:12:15.239 really doing and how they were navigating things if I 1270 01:12:15.319 --> 01:12:18.000 wasn't there to observe them. And so one quick example 1271 01:12:18.000 --> 01:12:20.079 of this was I sat down to do these interviews 1272 01:12:20.079 --> 01:12:24.319 and was asking people to early on, I was doing 1273 01:12:24.920 --> 01:12:27.079 like time you surveys in the interview, where I was 1274 01:12:27.119 --> 01:12:29.119 asking people to walk me through an entire day in 1275 01:12:29.159 --> 01:12:32.359 their life. And I sat down with some guys and 1276 01:12:32.399 --> 01:12:34.239 they were telling me, oh, we got up this morning 1277 01:12:34.279 --> 01:12:37.800 and then we prayed, and then we went and got breakfast, 1278 01:12:37.920 --> 01:12:40.359 and then we went back outside again and we prayed again. 1279 01:12:40.479 --> 01:12:44.000 And I'm listening to them, and now it's like two 1280 01:12:44.000 --> 01:12:47.039 o'clock on their day, and they prayed like five times. 1281 01:12:47.640 --> 01:12:49.880 And I had been hanging around them at this point 1282 01:12:49.880 --> 01:12:52.359 for over a year and I had never seen them 1283 01:12:52.439 --> 01:12:56.640 pray at all ever, and so I was like. 1284 01:12:58.600 --> 01:13:00.640 It's prayer euphimism for smoking weed. 1285 01:13:01.359 --> 01:13:04.479 And they laughed and then they were like, well, we 1286 01:13:04.479 --> 01:13:05.600 didn't want to say it on the tape. 1287 01:13:05.600 --> 01:13:07.600 We didn't want you to get in trouble and I 1288 01:13:07.640 --> 01:13:16.840 was like, you know, like, you know, if you. 1289 01:13:14.520 --> 01:13:17.000 Look, I was over I was over here. I was like, well, 1290 01:13:17.000 --> 01:13:17.920 were they Muslim? 1291 01:13:20.239 --> 01:13:22.680 I'm like, I've never seen pray like. 1292 01:13:23.520 --> 01:13:24.800 A little talk with Jesus. 1293 01:13:27.000 --> 01:13:27.239 You know. 1294 01:13:27.359 --> 01:13:31.520 That's like, so I think it was interesting because it's 1295 01:13:31.520 --> 01:13:34.039 an example of like, if I hadn't been an ethnographer 1296 01:13:34.039 --> 01:13:35.800 and like hanging with them and actually seen them, I 1297 01:13:35.840 --> 01:13:37.840 would have walked away from that being like some of 1298 01:13:37.880 --> 01:13:38.800 the most religious people. 1299 01:13:39.680 --> 01:13:42.439 You're like, I've met a faith I've never seen before. 1300 01:13:42.560 --> 01:13:46.439 It was other busted exactly, I've never. 1301 01:13:46.720 --> 01:13:50.239 But because of ethnography, it made it possible for me 1302 01:13:50.319 --> 01:13:52.439 to ask the right question at the right time. 1303 01:13:52.920 --> 01:13:54.079 It also meant that. 1304 01:13:55.800 --> 01:13:59.319 I am betted myself in a way that people knew 1305 01:13:59.399 --> 01:14:02.359 I wasn't just collecting data and trying to lead. So 1306 01:14:02.520 --> 01:14:05.680 I still talk to several people from the project every week. 1307 01:14:05.840 --> 01:14:07.800 You know, I'm like, you're. 1308 01:14:07.680 --> 01:14:09.560 Black and gay, I'm black gay, Like they reach out 1309 01:14:09.560 --> 01:14:11.640 to me out each other them, you know. So I 1310 01:14:11.640 --> 01:14:14.000 didn't want them to feel like it was fully extractive 1311 01:14:14.039 --> 01:14:18.239 because I think I I'm privileged with the opportunity to 1312 01:14:18.239 --> 01:14:20.479 tell some of their stories in the book, and I 1313 01:14:20.479 --> 01:14:23.159 feel like my name rides with the book, so all 1314 01:14:23.199 --> 01:14:25.840 of the fault can lie on me and their stories 1315 01:14:25.840 --> 01:14:29.520 and their narratives, but also so does the like if 1316 01:14:29.560 --> 01:14:31.920 people enjoy it or they learn something from it, it 1317 01:14:31.960 --> 01:14:34.159 also comes from that. But I wanted to be clear 1318 01:14:34.640 --> 01:14:37.039 that my goal was to use this as an opportunity 1319 01:14:37.119 --> 01:14:38.800 for them to argue, or for all of us to 1320 01:14:38.920 --> 01:14:42.840 argue for more spaces and places that help people who 1321 01:14:42.880 --> 01:14:45.760 need it. Right, So this is you all are showing 1322 01:14:45.840 --> 01:14:48.640 us why we need community organizations like this, why people 1323 01:14:48.680 --> 01:14:51.520 need gay family, white people, we need more media representation. 1324 01:14:52.000 --> 01:14:53.239 And I wanted to be able to do that and 1325 01:14:53.279 --> 01:14:55.800 let them know that my interests are tied to theirs, 1326 01:14:55.920 --> 01:14:59.960 Like you know, it's not extractive in that way for me, 1327 01:15:00.319 --> 01:15:03.159 and so ethnography it was true to me to be like, 1328 01:15:03.319 --> 01:15:06.720 let me embed myself so I can actually truly understand 1329 01:15:06.720 --> 01:15:07.560 what's happening here. 1330 01:15:07.720 --> 01:15:08.800 Yeah, I love that. 1331 01:15:09.359 --> 01:15:09.920 I love that. 1332 01:15:10.600 --> 01:15:11.319 I love that. 1333 01:15:11.319 --> 01:15:12.560 That's very black too. 1334 01:15:13.800 --> 01:15:16.960 Yeah. I know we're running we're running out of time here. 1335 01:15:17.000 --> 01:15:20.359 And I have one more question for you, and it 1336 01:15:20.479 --> 01:15:27.119 regards around family. In the book, there is you. You 1337 01:15:27.199 --> 01:15:32.600 talk about family a lot. It's a cornerstone here and 1338 01:15:32.600 --> 01:15:36.000 and so it seemed as though people are coming to 1339 01:15:36.760 --> 01:15:40.399 at your community site that you were at to find family, 1340 01:15:41.279 --> 01:15:46.199 and family has kind of changed in terms of what 1341 01:15:46.239 --> 01:15:48.439 that is. So can you talk about your journey in 1342 01:15:48.520 --> 01:15:50.840 discovering family through this lens? 1343 01:15:51.199 --> 01:15:52.359 Yeah? 1344 01:15:53.039 --> 01:15:55.600 You know, I think in the literature I was saying, 1345 01:15:55.640 --> 01:15:58.039 you know, when I was growing up, people would say 1346 01:15:58.079 --> 01:16:00.600 gay family, and they would make that would mean you 1347 01:16:00.600 --> 01:16:03.119 have a gay mother, a gay father, or you pick 1348 01:16:03.199 --> 01:16:04.239 someone to be your family. 1349 01:16:04.760 --> 01:16:07.960 And that, of course, with all this social progress. 1350 01:16:07.520 --> 01:16:10.079 Of like we can get married now, gays can get together, 1351 01:16:10.159 --> 01:16:13.600 have kids, you know, all that now gay families means that, 1352 01:16:14.239 --> 01:16:17.399 like too, a couple has come together and started a family. 1353 01:16:17.720 --> 01:16:19.680 And in the literature, I thought it was important to 1354 01:16:19.800 --> 01:16:24.319 highlight that one, gay families had always existed before that 1355 01:16:24.399 --> 01:16:28.840 in these types of configurations. Yeah, two, they only are 1356 01:16:28.880 --> 01:16:32.760 not it's not just subscribed to ballroom or circumscribe to ballroom. 1357 01:16:32.840 --> 01:16:33.159 Right, that. 1358 01:16:34.640 --> 01:16:37.880 People had gay mothers and gay fathers and gay siblings 1359 01:16:37.880 --> 01:16:41.560 and all that outside of the house ballroom community, or 1360 01:16:41.600 --> 01:16:44.239 even that cuts across the house ballroom community. So your 1361 01:16:44.319 --> 01:16:46.119 gay father, gay mother could be in a different house 1362 01:16:46.159 --> 01:16:48.119 than you, and that is I don't think that's the 1363 01:16:48.159 --> 01:16:49.640 way that we think about it. And I think when 1364 01:16:49.680 --> 01:16:51.720 you were talk talking about like Poe's earlier, I think 1365 01:16:51.760 --> 01:16:55.000 that's an example of life. You know, it does give 1366 01:16:55.039 --> 01:16:58.880 you this impression that like, that's what a gay family gets. 1367 01:16:59.800 --> 01:17:05.159 Think is important because family is the primary socialization agent 1368 01:17:05.199 --> 01:17:05.760 of your life. 1369 01:17:05.960 --> 01:17:06.079 Right. 1370 01:17:06.560 --> 01:17:10.159 The family you're born into authenticates how you understand your race, 1371 01:17:10.239 --> 01:17:13.720 how you understand your sexuality, your gender, are, your class, 1372 01:17:14.199 --> 01:17:17.079 your religion. It's often all passed on to you in 1373 01:17:17.159 --> 01:17:17.479 that way. 1374 01:17:17.920 --> 01:17:23.159 And so when you don't have a family that is 1375 01:17:23.239 --> 01:17:28.159 supportive or that you feel like you can learn from, well, 1376 01:17:28.319 --> 01:17:30.760 you know, I think of that Peppola Basa quote Imparison's brother, 1377 01:17:30.800 --> 01:17:32.920 which is like you go out there and you search, Right, 1378 01:17:33.640 --> 01:17:35.279 you don't have a family, You're going to go out 1379 01:17:35.319 --> 01:17:36.239 look for it with. 1380 01:17:36.319 --> 01:17:38.279 The young kids who are just on the streets at 1381 01:17:38.359 --> 01:17:39.800 thirteen and yeah and whatnot. 1382 01:17:40.439 --> 01:17:41.279 You have to find it. 1383 01:17:41.840 --> 01:17:46.159 And in the work, I think early on I was 1384 01:17:46.920 --> 01:17:50.199 maybe not as it wasn't as clear to me why 1385 01:17:50.279 --> 01:17:52.760 people were joining gay families or doing things. I always 1386 01:17:52.760 --> 01:17:54.640 say in the preface of the book, I talk about 1387 01:17:55.000 --> 01:17:57.079 when it was first brought up to me to join 1388 01:17:57.159 --> 01:18:01.039 a gay house or have a gay family, and they 1389 01:18:01.119 --> 01:18:05.800 were like, you didn't get a gay mother some yeah, 1390 01:18:05.800 --> 01:18:08.479 I won't say, you know, because I was like, I'm 1391 01:18:08.520 --> 01:18:10.000 not going to these balls? What are you talking about? 1392 01:18:10.039 --> 01:18:12.720 And then when I was like, bro, you're not going 1393 01:18:12.760 --> 01:18:14.079 to get this right if you're not going. 1394 01:18:14.039 --> 01:18:15.640 To go, and I said no, I had to go. 1395 01:18:15.880 --> 01:18:18.279 I have to go. That's the ethnography. And so I 1396 01:18:18.399 --> 01:18:19.039 say two things. 1397 01:18:19.119 --> 01:18:21.720 One which is when I was in high school and 1398 01:18:21.840 --> 01:18:23.720 they presented to me what I like, a gay mother 1399 01:18:23.760 --> 01:18:24.119 and gay father. 1400 01:18:24.159 --> 01:18:25.560 They're like, you need a gay mother and a gay father. 1401 01:18:25.560 --> 01:18:27.720 And I was like, oh what because they can tell 1402 01:18:27.720 --> 01:18:29.279 you what to do, you know, and how did it? 1403 01:18:29.359 --> 01:18:30.760 I was like, I have a mother and father and 1404 01:18:30.840 --> 01:18:32.439 I don't need anybody else trying to tell me what 1405 01:18:32.520 --> 01:18:34.960 to do. So I was like, not going to work 1406 01:18:35.000 --> 01:18:37.560 for me, And so I avoided it right. I was like, 1407 01:18:37.640 --> 01:18:38.800 that's not my thing. 1408 01:18:39.399 --> 01:18:42.359 But I think learning with some good prodding, you know, 1409 01:18:42.439 --> 01:18:44.079 you need to go understand this. I did. 1410 01:18:44.159 --> 01:18:49.560 I had a fundamentally skewed perception of even how scoring 1411 01:18:49.720 --> 01:18:52.119 and things worked at ballroom or like what was happening, 1412 01:18:52.239 --> 01:18:54.800 but these families in that way until I went and 1413 01:18:54.920 --> 01:18:57.199 I learned what it meant, and then meeting people who 1414 01:18:57.239 --> 01:18:59.960 were like, I'm not in ballroom, but my dad is involved, 1415 01:19:00.079 --> 01:19:01.520 or my gay dad in the morment and I don't. 1416 01:19:01.520 --> 01:19:04.159 I'm not in his house, but he's my gay dad, right, 1417 01:19:04.199 --> 01:19:08.600 And so understanding why it was important to create family 1418 01:19:09.119 --> 01:19:12.199 and that it's not just like chosen kinship network or 1419 01:19:12.279 --> 01:19:14.239 like a group of friends, right, because you can call 1420 01:19:14.279 --> 01:19:18.640 anyone your group of friends like that. These they're creating 1421 01:19:18.960 --> 01:19:24.680 family relationships, in complex relationships where they see them stronger 1422 01:19:25.039 --> 01:19:26.760 even than their biological families. 1423 01:19:26.800 --> 01:19:27.159 Sometimes. 1424 01:19:27.199 --> 01:19:31.159 Yeah, like there's like accountability, there's accountabilities in those relationships. 1425 01:19:32.760 --> 01:19:38.600 Yeah, a house is a gang or a clique, a 1426 01:19:38.720 --> 01:19:41.359 group of people, but basically a house is like a 1427 01:19:41.439 --> 01:19:44.760 family union. You have your mother or your father, the 1428 01:19:44.880 --> 01:19:47.960 children of princess, if you're in a house family. 1429 01:19:48.159 --> 01:19:50.720 If we're gonna use media, I know we've mentioned pos 1430 01:19:50.800 --> 01:19:52.960 many times, and I do agree with you that it's 1431 01:19:53.039 --> 01:19:56.479 like it doesn't give, like it doesn't get to give 1432 01:19:56.520 --> 01:19:58.760 the full onion, right, it doesn't get to dig deep 1433 01:19:58.840 --> 01:20:02.520 into and understand them. It's for media that white man 1434 01:20:02.600 --> 01:20:05.199 wrote it all for all. There's all kinds of things, 1435 01:20:05.319 --> 01:20:07.840 right or direct, whatever you want to call it, anyway, 1436 01:20:08.960 --> 01:20:11.159 I think if I think about a relationship in there 1437 01:20:11.560 --> 01:20:15.640 that might represent what you're saying, it would be what's 1438 01:20:15.680 --> 01:20:19.199 her name? It's Elektra and uh, oh, my girl, MJ. 1439 01:20:19.399 --> 01:20:24.600 What was MJ's character's name? Where? Uh what was her name? 1440 01:20:24.760 --> 01:20:28.239 What was her name? In the Bianca thank you so 1441 01:20:29.199 --> 01:20:31.479 how no matter whether they were in the same house 1442 01:20:31.560 --> 01:20:33.800 or not, like you said, they would expand out, there 1443 01:20:33.840 --> 01:20:37.079 would be fights, niggas was getting killed, they had to 1444 01:20:37.119 --> 01:20:39.600 cover up murders, you know, all kinds of things like that. 1445 01:20:40.159 --> 01:20:44.119 It was and then also an accountability, right because Electra 1446 01:20:44.279 --> 01:20:48.359 had issues and Bianca was like, hey, let me, let 1447 01:20:48.439 --> 01:20:50.880 me your She would hold her accountable. She would hold 1448 01:20:50.920 --> 01:20:52.880 a mirta face whether she wanted to see it or not. 1449 01:20:53.479 --> 01:20:56.680 And so I feel like that's giving us a media representation, 1450 01:20:56.920 --> 01:20:59.720 kind of surface level representation what you're saying. 1451 01:21:00.039 --> 01:21:02.720 It's a great example, right, and I think for a 1452 01:21:02.800 --> 01:21:05.079 better version of pose. I think it was like a 1453 01:21:05.159 --> 01:21:09.920 really good dramatization of Paris is burning and does a 1454 01:21:09.960 --> 01:21:12.119 really good job of expanding the store, giving us a 1455 01:21:12.199 --> 01:21:15.920 little bit more, you know, bringing in to life in 1456 01:21:15.960 --> 01:21:18.840 a different way a little bit, you know, and does 1457 01:21:18.880 --> 01:21:21.920 a great job at doing that, and you know, actually 1458 01:21:22.520 --> 01:21:27.039 employs these wonderful trans actors and actresses who can be 1459 01:21:27.279 --> 01:21:29.439 on this, you know, on the scene in a way 1460 01:21:29.520 --> 01:21:31.720 that the folks who were in Paris Is Burning originally 1461 01:21:31.840 --> 01:21:34.199 were not able, Like, they didn't reap the same benefits 1462 01:21:34.199 --> 01:21:37.960 in that same way. So it is transformative. But and 1463 01:21:38.079 --> 01:21:40.560 I and it also is another example of there's more 1464 01:21:40.600 --> 01:21:44.520 than one trans woman in this show. Yes, all of 1465 01:21:44.600 --> 01:21:46.399 the stereotypes about what it means to be a trans 1466 01:21:46.439 --> 01:21:48.880 woman aren't on this one person, right, Like or what 1467 01:21:49.000 --> 01:21:51.319 it means to be gay. There are multiple versions of 1468 01:21:51.399 --> 01:21:53.840 what it means to be a gay person in the show. 1469 01:21:54.159 --> 01:21:55.880 So you could just see that, And I think that's 1470 01:21:55.920 --> 01:21:58.640 what I'm always pushing for, which is, let's we have 1471 01:21:58.720 --> 01:22:02.439 to diversify the representations so that you know it's not 1472 01:22:02.680 --> 01:22:04.880 just oh, you see a show and you think that 1473 01:22:05.119 --> 01:22:07.119 is the only way to be queer and gay, that's 1474 01:22:07.119 --> 01:22:07.880 the only way. 1475 01:22:07.760 --> 01:22:08.199 You meet up. 1476 01:22:08.319 --> 01:22:10.359 And that's why I use the Queerest Folk example where 1477 01:22:10.359 --> 01:22:12.119 I say, look, I saw it and I was like, 1478 01:22:12.199 --> 01:22:13.960 oh no, if this is gay, I gotta find me 1479 01:22:14.039 --> 01:22:17.119 a new thing. But then you know, no, as Oar 1480 01:22:17.199 --> 01:22:20.399 comes along and you're like, oh, Okay, yeah, to do this, 1481 01:22:21.600 --> 01:22:27.439 you know, like that aligns that like they're black, They're 1482 01:22:27.560 --> 01:22:29.720 like talking about things that I know. There's music here 1483 01:22:29.760 --> 01:22:31.680 that I know, artists I know, and you know what 1484 01:22:31.880 --> 01:22:33.960 that looks like. And so I think it's important to 1485 01:22:34.079 --> 01:22:38.239 highlight that. But like family, I couldn't write about this 1486 01:22:38.560 --> 01:22:40.560 without addressing family, and I think it does kind of 1487 01:22:40.600 --> 01:22:43.319 booking the work, right, which is I'm talking first in 1488 01:22:43.359 --> 01:22:45.720 the beginning really about biologically and how people are brought 1489 01:22:45.800 --> 01:22:48.800 up and what they're learning often at home, and then 1490 01:22:49.079 --> 01:22:52.119 for by the end we're turning to you know, these 1491 01:22:52.239 --> 01:22:55.000 chosen gay families people. I was like, I am choosing 1492 01:22:55.119 --> 01:22:57.800 to be in relationship with you in family. 1493 01:22:58.000 --> 01:22:59.880 You are my gay mother. I'm going to rely on you. 1494 01:23:00.600 --> 01:23:05.279 And to take people on as children is a big calling. 1495 01:23:05.359 --> 01:23:07.920 Right, Like they talk about like I'm paying you know, 1496 01:23:08.000 --> 01:23:10.079 I'm paying the way for my kids or you know, 1497 01:23:10.199 --> 01:23:13.640 I'm showing up when something's wrong or if they're sick, 1498 01:23:13.800 --> 01:23:15.960 or those sayings, and they're they're stepping up to the 1499 01:23:16.000 --> 01:23:17.760 plate and doing that, and I think it's important to 1500 01:23:17.840 --> 01:23:21.000 have that, especially in a city like LA we have 1501 01:23:21.039 --> 01:23:23.520 a lot of transplants and people who like picked up 1502 01:23:23.560 --> 01:23:26.000 their stuff and were like, I picked up everything I 1503 01:23:26.079 --> 01:23:28.600 had in Alabama and I moved to LA to make. 1504 01:23:28.600 --> 01:23:30.439 New York to you know, you need a family. 1505 01:23:31.439 --> 01:23:34.800 I used to hold boys thanksgivings xt he knows he 1506 01:23:34.920 --> 01:23:37.560 was one of the Lost Boys, and I was Windy, 1507 01:23:37.680 --> 01:23:39.880 and I would cook for all these niggas whose family 1508 01:23:39.960 --> 01:23:42.359 who didn't have families, or they were transplants to the 1509 01:23:42.439 --> 01:23:45.880 city or whatever the you know. And it was necessary. 1510 01:23:45.960 --> 01:23:48.039 And that's how we've been able to expand and kind 1511 01:23:48.079 --> 01:23:51.960 of build our familial community in this way. And so 1512 01:23:52.479 --> 01:23:57.039 when you add an additional life experience to that, such 1513 01:23:57.079 --> 01:24:00.520 as being gay, where you've experiences that I haven't even variance, 1514 01:24:00.880 --> 01:24:03.199 then you can see why it's so important, because it's 1515 01:24:03.199 --> 01:24:07.560 important for everybody. Everybody needs that energy, humans across the gambit. 1516 01:24:08.239 --> 01:24:10.960 So I appreciate your perspective very very much. 1517 01:24:15.000 --> 01:24:21.800 Any parting words, parting words, do I have party words? 1518 01:24:23.319 --> 01:24:23.479 You know? 1519 01:24:23.640 --> 01:24:25.880 But just before we go pray, everyone go pray. 1520 01:24:26.000 --> 01:24:29.439 Yeah, you know, I just hope that you know it's uh, 1521 01:24:29.680 --> 01:24:31.800 you know that the book is even though it's about 1522 01:24:31.800 --> 01:24:35.600 black gay men, that I think it. You know, my 1523 01:24:35.720 --> 01:24:38.079 goal was to make something that was portable for people 1524 01:24:38.119 --> 01:24:41.079 who are navigating stigmas no matter what they are, and 1525 01:24:41.399 --> 01:24:45.239 what unspoiledly looks like for different groups may be different things. 1526 01:24:45.279 --> 01:24:47.600 There may be different pathways. I talk about these three 1527 01:24:47.640 --> 01:24:51.520 in the book, the community or organization, the media, and 1528 01:24:51.640 --> 01:24:55.279 the family as like primary pathways in the book. There 1529 01:24:55.319 --> 01:24:58.439 could be others depending on where you are and what 1530 01:24:58.560 --> 01:25:01.159 stigmas you're navigating in the go. But it was important 1531 01:25:01.159 --> 01:25:05.079 for me to highlight this concept, which is that you know, 1532 01:25:05.159 --> 01:25:07.520 I think we talk a lot about trying to destigmatize, 1533 01:25:08.279 --> 01:25:10.920 and much of the work that's being done is put 1534 01:25:10.960 --> 01:25:12.880 on the people who are living through the trauma of 1535 01:25:12.920 --> 01:25:16.079 the stigma, you know, going to these communitizations, going to 1536 01:25:16.119 --> 01:25:17.920 places you're teaching me how to deal with the stigma. 1537 01:25:18.000 --> 01:25:20.439 That's not going to be stigmatize the people who need 1538 01:25:20.520 --> 01:25:22.800 the intervention of the people who have created this stigma 1539 01:25:22.880 --> 01:25:25.920 around who I am. And until we get to that point, 1540 01:25:26.640 --> 01:25:30.439 we won't see destigmatization. So for me, spoiling became this 1541 01:25:31.720 --> 01:25:35.520 term to really go and to say, it's about reformulating 1542 01:25:35.560 --> 01:25:39.800 the relationship you have with yourself and if by chance 1543 01:25:40.720 --> 01:25:43.520 you come to a better understanding here, accepting yourself and 1544 01:25:43.840 --> 01:25:46.520 maybe other people feel okay about it afterwards. That's a 1545 01:25:46.560 --> 01:25:48.760 good after effect, a good spillover effect. But to me, 1546 01:25:48.840 --> 01:25:50.279 it was more important to say, no, we need to 1547 01:25:50.319 --> 01:25:52.880 rework how we feel about what it means to be 1548 01:25:53.039 --> 01:25:56.199 who we are living in these bodies with these types 1549 01:25:56.239 --> 01:25:57.399 of identities. 1550 01:25:57.760 --> 01:26:04.880 Today beautiful, Thank you the winder. Tell the people where 1551 01:26:04.960 --> 01:26:07.840 they can find the book, where they can find you, 1552 01:26:09.279 --> 01:26:10.680 and check out all that you're doing. 1553 01:26:10.800 --> 01:26:11.119 Please. 1554 01:26:11.199 --> 01:26:15.199 Plus yeah, my social media is be More Torell because 1555 01:26:15.199 --> 01:26:17.199 I'm from Baltimore girl. 1556 01:26:17.079 --> 01:26:20.159 You know, with it with zero Baltimore say two two, 1557 01:26:21.439 --> 01:26:22.640 See I don't. I don't have to. 1558 01:26:22.760 --> 01:26:25.640 I don't have the accent, but I don't have the death. 1559 01:26:26.479 --> 01:26:27.479 It's a whole thing. 1560 01:26:28.439 --> 01:26:30.560 I didn't even realize what it was an accent until 1561 01:26:30.560 --> 01:26:32.039 I went to college and we watched a video and 1562 01:26:32.079 --> 01:26:35.000 people like you under a sound like that, and I 1563 01:26:35.119 --> 01:26:38.000 was like, that was English, so you know the whole thing. 1564 01:26:39.159 --> 01:26:42.600 But yes, no, I be More Torell on social media platforms. 1565 01:26:42.680 --> 01:26:47.399 And the book is available at Amazon, rep Club and 1566 01:26:47.520 --> 01:26:49.960 why you Press you can get it anywhere right now, 1567 01:26:51.239 --> 01:26:54.640 is yeah, and why you press If you use Pride forty. 1568 01:26:54.279 --> 01:26:56.119 When you buy, you get forty percent off of the book. 1569 01:26:56.199 --> 01:26:56.479 Right now. 1570 01:26:59.239 --> 01:27:05.039 Discount Yes, find me on all all platforms. Thank you 1571 01:27:05.159 --> 01:27:07.159 for being thank you, thanks for having me. 1572 01:27:08.600 --> 01:27:13.039 And stay tuned for the next segment after these messages, 1573 01:27:13.199 --> 01:27:24.199 will be right back all right. 1574 01:27:24.279 --> 01:27:28.560 Drug crazed rodents rating your child's medicine cabinet rat's on 1575 01:27:28.720 --> 01:27:43.199 riddling next on sixth head World, shout out to doctor Winder. Okay, 1576 01:27:43.520 --> 01:27:46.840 was that not an awesome conversation? You make sure you 1577 01:27:46.880 --> 01:27:48.560 will go purchase the book as well? 1578 01:27:49.000 --> 01:27:51.159 Yeah, are gay or not? 1579 01:27:52.319 --> 01:27:54.319 I feel like we've learn some ship. 1580 01:27:54.600 --> 01:27:56.159 Got conversation for everybody. 1581 01:27:56.239 --> 01:27:57.960 Yes, yes, you need to connect. 1582 01:27:58.600 --> 01:28:00.800 Leave Love Island alone for a night or two. I 1583 01:28:00.920 --> 01:28:03.640 know it's no, it's hardy. 1584 01:28:03.680 --> 01:28:06.000 Are you watching this season XD? 1585 01:28:08.279 --> 01:28:10.520 No, I'm not. I'm gonna and I'm gonna tell you why. 1586 01:28:10.680 --> 01:28:18.359 I'm gonna tell you why because I hey, you know, 1587 01:28:18.520 --> 01:28:21.920 I struggle with reality shows where love is the main price. 1588 01:28:22.039 --> 01:28:24.760 Which is why I was so surprised at how quickly 1589 01:28:25.239 --> 01:28:31.399 you got PROPAGANDASH watched you get. I watched you well 1590 01:28:31.520 --> 01:28:32.479 I know why. 1591 01:28:32.680 --> 01:28:41.239 You see, they do win money however, or yeah, they 1592 01:28:41.319 --> 01:28:43.279 do with money, but it's not enough for me to 1593 01:28:43.439 --> 01:28:49.319 be like, okay, right, but I also realized like they 1594 01:28:49.640 --> 01:28:53.680 this show is just not for me. I think they 1595 01:28:53.680 --> 01:28:54.159 are young. 1596 01:28:54.319 --> 01:28:58.439 They're young people, young people with like. 1597 01:28:58.479 --> 01:29:01.920 I don't know twenty two. I don't have anybody in 1598 01:29:02.000 --> 01:29:05.239 my family that's twenty too, Like right now, I don't 1599 01:29:05.239 --> 01:29:05.600 really know. 1600 01:29:07.680 --> 01:29:12.560 I struggle to relate to Yeah, well, yes, and. 1601 01:29:12.600 --> 01:29:14.319 I don't want to, you know what I mean? Like 1602 01:29:14.399 --> 01:29:16.000 I don't And it's not that I don't want to, 1603 01:29:16.119 --> 01:29:16.960 but I don't want to. 1604 01:29:17.079 --> 01:29:17.279 Yeah. 1605 01:29:18.439 --> 01:29:20.840 Yeah, And it's fun because they don't need to know me, 1606 01:29:21.039 --> 01:29:23.800 they don't need to know us, and it's the mutual 1607 01:29:23.920 --> 01:29:33.880 disrespect mutual I'm going to watch Big Brother as as per. Yes, 1608 01:29:34.520 --> 01:29:39.680 that's because I'm we we've been doing it at this point. Yeah, 1609 01:29:39.720 --> 01:29:40.319 that's what we do. 1610 01:29:40.800 --> 01:29:41.279 Have to do it. 1611 01:29:41.720 --> 01:29:44.439 Plus it's easy to it's easier to navigate, and plus 1612 01:29:44.520 --> 01:29:45.239 there's it's. 1613 01:29:45.119 --> 01:29:47.479 Less a commitment. It's just once a week as opposed 1614 01:29:47.520 --> 01:29:48.359 to every. 1615 01:29:48.239 --> 01:29:51.319 Day and if you choose to and if you choose 1616 01:29:51.479 --> 01:29:54.600 to engage in live fees and that's different. But it's 1617 01:29:55.359 --> 01:29:57.159 you really need to watch one episode of the week. 1618 01:29:57.239 --> 01:30:00.640 Yeah yeah, Oh wait, hold on before you do your 1619 01:30:00.680 --> 01:30:02.760 petty peeve as you all are bringing up TV. 1620 01:30:02.640 --> 01:30:05.279 So you should do you should do Big brother with 1621 01:30:05.479 --> 01:30:08.920 us this year, keep trying to rope. 1622 01:30:08.720 --> 01:30:11.520 Me into I think I think, you know, just just 1623 01:30:11.680 --> 01:30:15.279 give it, consider it, just give it us, think about it, 1624 01:30:15.359 --> 01:30:15.840 think about it. 1625 01:30:16.039 --> 01:30:19.960 Listen. I just think we're coming up on the thousandth episode. 1626 01:30:20.560 --> 01:30:24.039 You have a month, you have thirty days from today 1627 01:30:24.199 --> 01:30:28.840 or yesterday. You know it's gonna be a good time. 1628 01:30:29.119 --> 01:30:32.159 I won't even make you watch the live feeds, Yeah, 1629 01:30:32.680 --> 01:30:33.439 because I won't. 1630 01:30:33.600 --> 01:30:39.680 First of all, it is weird, though I never that, 1631 01:30:40.520 --> 01:30:42.560 but it's like I'm waking up and watching other people 1632 01:30:42.800 --> 01:30:44.600 like I'm literally checking these feeds. 1633 01:30:44.399 --> 01:30:47.079 Like I am literally essentially another bitches business. 1634 01:30:47.800 --> 01:30:55.239 Yes, yes, it's like watching live tribal like all the time. 1635 01:30:55.279 --> 01:30:55.479 It is. 1636 01:30:56.000 --> 01:30:58.800 That's why when Serie was on, it was magical. She 1637 01:30:58.960 --> 01:30:59.880 was we was locked in. 1638 01:31:00.520 --> 01:31:02.159 Know how I feel, but you know how I feel 1639 01:31:02.159 --> 01:31:04.840 about to Refields though, you know how I feel about it. 1640 01:31:05.000 --> 01:31:07.439 I even encourage you to watch her season that she 1641 01:31:07.720 --> 01:31:09.800 was on, just a couple of episodes, just so you 1642 01:31:09.840 --> 01:31:15.079 could be Like, it's like the games. The games are corny. 1643 01:31:15.560 --> 01:31:19.680 They're not like there is real gameplay though, like there 1644 01:31:19.880 --> 01:31:25.640 is some shady ship that does go down and and 1645 01:31:25.920 --> 01:31:27.800 people do be off the wall. They say racist shit 1646 01:31:27.840 --> 01:31:32.279 all the time. Well they get kicked out, but it's fun. 1647 01:31:33.319 --> 01:31:36.119 I mean for the for the blatantly racist ship, but 1648 01:31:36.199 --> 01:31:38.239 there's also just you know, the standard. 1649 01:31:39.680 --> 01:31:39.880 Yeah. 1650 01:31:40.199 --> 01:31:42.840 And you know, I feel like black women on Big 1651 01:31:42.960 --> 01:31:46.079 Brother is always a wild ride, right, because there's a 1652 01:31:46.159 --> 01:31:49.039 certain way that people engage and perceive a black women 1653 01:31:49.159 --> 01:31:52.800 in that space, and all of their prejudice and bias 1654 01:31:52.960 --> 01:31:56.079 falls out very quickly, even when they try to conceal it, 1655 01:31:56.359 --> 01:31:57.199 especially among the. 1656 01:31:57.239 --> 01:32:00.680 Progressive girls, right and the game you see I'm. 1657 01:32:00.640 --> 01:32:02.920 Like, oh, your racism fell right out, girl. You was 1658 01:32:02.960 --> 01:32:05.159 trying to hold it, but I see it, look at it, 1659 01:32:05.279 --> 01:32:05.960 it's right there. 1660 01:32:06.560 --> 01:32:06.800 Yeah. 1661 01:32:07.279 --> 01:32:11.319 So that's always that's always an interesting angle. 1662 01:32:11.960 --> 01:32:14.399 And to me, it's just something that it's kind of become, 1663 01:32:14.479 --> 01:32:16.199 strangely become a part of the summertime. 1664 01:32:16.279 --> 01:32:18.319 For me, it's just kind of like, oh, yeah. 1665 01:32:20.159 --> 01:32:23.119 It's escape because I don't have to think about anything else. 1666 01:32:23.199 --> 01:32:24.840 They tell you nine hundred times what. 1667 01:32:24.960 --> 01:32:28.479 Happened, Yeah, and you can escape the reality of this 1668 01:32:28.680 --> 01:32:32.119 world back going over there into this closed social experiment 1669 01:32:32.319 --> 01:32:34.319 and just like I'm not even dealing with what y'all 1670 01:32:34.359 --> 01:32:34.880 are talking about. 1671 01:32:34.880 --> 01:32:37.640 I'm going to see what these people are doing. So 1672 01:32:38.239 --> 01:32:40.920 that's been helpful. But yeah, just think of God consider it. 1673 01:32:41.520 --> 01:32:41.880 I will. 1674 01:32:42.079 --> 01:32:45.960 I will consider that, Takia. 1675 01:32:46.479 --> 01:32:49.319 Yes, I'm ready, my petty Peeve. I talked about this 1676 01:32:49.399 --> 01:32:52.000 a little bit. Oh, were you gonna ask me something else? 1677 01:32:52.680 --> 01:32:54.239 It was what go ahead? 1678 01:32:56.319 --> 01:32:58.279 XD and I already had our conversation. You can go 1679 01:32:58.359 --> 01:33:02.399 find it on Patrion. Okay, next to Patrioch. We would 1680 01:33:02.479 --> 01:33:06.680 like to know your thoughts drag Race, the last final 1681 01:33:06.960 --> 01:33:14.319 episode of the second bracket of drag Race. Your thoughts. Oh, 1682 01:33:16.920 --> 01:33:17.960 I don't know where to begin. 1683 01:33:20.079 --> 01:33:24.199 I feel like Silky is doing what I know Silky 1684 01:33:24.279 --> 01:33:24.479 to do. 1685 01:33:25.960 --> 01:33:30.680 In terms of how you know the gameplay and the 1686 01:33:30.800 --> 01:33:36.800 points and how that all worked out. I mean it 1687 01:33:36.920 --> 01:33:39.560 was kind of even though I was like, oh, I 1688 01:33:39.760 --> 01:33:42.159 was kind of like kind of genius the way that 1689 01:33:42.279 --> 01:33:45.960 it just she engineered that in a way that was 1690 01:33:46.079 --> 01:33:49.119 most favorable for her, which in all the ways that 1691 01:33:49.239 --> 01:33:51.960 I struggle, you know, with my sister Silky and the 1692 01:33:52.039 --> 01:33:53.880 ways that she gets on my nerves, it's like it's 1693 01:33:54.000 --> 01:33:55.000 masterful gameplay. 1694 01:33:55.439 --> 01:33:59.560 Okay, it's masterful gameplay. It's masterful gameplay. 1695 01:34:00.359 --> 01:34:01.520 I could I was. 1696 01:34:02.199 --> 01:34:04.960 I did at least feel better that she was worried 1697 01:34:05.720 --> 01:34:13.119 that if my sister Crystal Crystal meth uh Chris, if. 1698 01:34:13.239 --> 01:34:15.760 Crystal didn't get that last point, I was at least 1699 01:34:15.880 --> 01:34:19.359 encouraged that Zukie was feeling bad, like like you know, 1700 01:34:20.119 --> 01:34:22.880 she was over there stress like if they don't give 1701 01:34:22.960 --> 01:34:25.319 Crystal this point, if Crystal is not in the top two. 1702 01:34:25.520 --> 01:34:28.800 After I did all of this nigga rigging, I would 1703 01:34:32.000 --> 01:34:35.479 it was nigga rigging for sure. I didn't feel I 1704 01:34:35.560 --> 01:34:40.199 felt better about that. I'm trying to think because I 1705 01:34:40.199 --> 01:34:41.159 watched it a little while ago. 1706 01:34:43.239 --> 01:34:47.760 How did you feel about uh Selena's reaction? 1707 01:34:48.239 --> 01:34:48.439 Oh? 1708 01:34:48.640 --> 01:34:54.479 Yeah, Selena gets on my nerves and I'm just trying 1709 01:34:54.560 --> 01:35:06.479 to I don't know if Selena's reaction, I wonder why 1710 01:35:06.560 --> 01:35:09.680 Selena feels so it titled. 1711 01:35:11.520 --> 01:35:11.720 To me. 1712 01:35:11.840 --> 01:35:14.760 I feel like there's like an entitlement there and. 1713 01:35:18.520 --> 01:35:21.000 She's like she sister just didn't have the points, she 1714 01:35:21.119 --> 01:35:23.279 didn't have the wins, she didn't have the points. 1715 01:35:23.399 --> 01:35:26.239 She got a win, right, if I'm remembering correctly. 1716 01:35:26.560 --> 01:35:29.720 I'm getting a little confused because I also, I told 1717 01:35:29.760 --> 01:35:33.640 you that I went back to watch. I'm now like 1718 01:35:33.760 --> 01:35:36.119 watching season twelve because I went back and watched. 1719 01:35:37.199 --> 01:35:38.439 I went back and watched all. 1720 01:35:38.399 --> 01:35:41.760 The Silky's original and then then I'm in season twelve, 1721 01:35:41.800 --> 01:35:44.560 so I feel like all this drag races is coming 1722 01:35:44.560 --> 01:35:45.399 together in my mind. 1723 01:35:46.279 --> 01:35:49.000 That's jayas yes. 1724 01:35:48.880 --> 01:35:51.560 I think, and the Queen we don't talk about. 1725 01:35:51.720 --> 01:35:54.039 Oh yeah, oh Sherry Fye. 1726 01:35:54.880 --> 01:35:58.680 Yeah, she wasn't talk about Sherryffy. 1727 01:35:59.560 --> 01:36:01.880 It was oh wow though, but yeah, So I feel 1728 01:36:01.880 --> 01:36:03.960 like I have a lot of drag race in my mind. 1729 01:36:03.960 --> 01:36:06.279 I'm trying to keep track of this most recent one. 1730 01:36:06.359 --> 01:36:11.119 So I feel like I don't remember, okay, Selena. Selena 1731 01:36:11.239 --> 01:36:14.239 felt like, oh Selena, okay, yes, because she was looking 1732 01:36:14.279 --> 01:36:16.880 for the Transla Jays to to back her up, and 1733 01:36:17.079 --> 01:36:20.359 all of them left my sister out there by herself. 1734 01:36:20.359 --> 01:36:23.079 Okay, okay, yes, now I remember, now, I remember now, 1735 01:36:23.079 --> 01:36:23.920 I remember. 1736 01:36:26.199 --> 01:36:30.159 And Aura and Aura she she was also really oh yeah, 1737 01:36:31.479 --> 01:36:34.880 and I didn't think Aura had it inner And I 1738 01:36:34.960 --> 01:36:37.319 felt like it was interesting that Aura, because I mean, 1739 01:36:37.439 --> 01:36:39.600 Ora didn't get nothing out the equation, like. 1740 01:36:39.720 --> 01:36:42.439 You know what I'm saying, Like all of the ways 1741 01:36:42.479 --> 01:36:47.479 that Aura was moving to me, it did not benefit 1742 01:36:47.600 --> 01:36:52.119 her directly. So I think if you juxtapost that against 1743 01:36:52.159 --> 01:36:54.760 the way that Silky was moving, like, it was very 1744 01:36:54.880 --> 01:36:57.880 intentional gameplay that benefited Silky directly. 1745 01:36:58.199 --> 01:37:01.520 Where I felt like she wasn't going was just she wasn't. 1746 01:37:01.800 --> 01:37:03.600 Yeah, And that's why I thought it was interesting that 1747 01:37:03.720 --> 01:37:06.760 she didn't that she left uh Selena out there. I 1748 01:37:06.920 --> 01:37:09.000 was most annoyed because Selena kept saying peck peck. It 1749 01:37:09.079 --> 01:37:15.800 was like, girl girl, one more time, she's listening to 1750 01:37:15.920 --> 01:37:17.399 you girls, stop saying it. 1751 01:37:19.000 --> 01:37:21.039 Yeah, But no, what did y'all think? 1752 01:37:21.119 --> 01:37:24.760 I mean, I think it was wild to see her reaction, 1753 01:37:25.000 --> 01:37:26.640 Like she blew up in a way that I thought 1754 01:37:26.720 --> 01:37:27.239 that she would. 1755 01:37:27.359 --> 01:37:29.720 But like, what did y'all think we had a bit 1756 01:37:29.800 --> 01:37:34.039 of a disagreement to We did, Yeah, And I think 1757 01:37:34.079 --> 01:37:37.640 it's and I recognized this is me playing survivor. 1758 01:37:37.359 --> 01:37:46.239 Okay, because I did not. I think I think Aura 1759 01:37:46.399 --> 01:37:48.119 in April see. 1760 01:37:48.279 --> 01:37:50.439 I want and look and I'm playing who the fuck 1761 01:37:50.479 --> 01:37:53.520 are you talking to? And I was like, how you 1762 01:37:53.640 --> 01:37:56.800 gonna make all these alliances and then black on me 1763 01:37:56.960 --> 01:37:59.840 for not voting for you, bench like after I've been peeping, 1764 01:38:00.520 --> 01:38:03.079 be shady in this workroom, but I'm not giving you ship. 1765 01:38:04.079 --> 01:38:08.279 And that's why I conceded and I said, fine with Aura. 1766 01:38:08.600 --> 01:38:11.119 I still don't like the half of but it's fine. 1767 01:38:11.560 --> 01:38:18.159 But April, who was just there for like STDs, carried 1768 01:38:18.239 --> 01:38:23.199 her like that's true through these last three episodes and 1769 01:38:23.479 --> 01:38:24.000 like and. 1770 01:38:24.000 --> 01:38:26.640 Then Ski booster her ego with that one little point. 1771 01:38:27.039 --> 01:38:27.479 But it was so. 1772 01:38:27.640 --> 01:38:28.399 Interesting though that. 1773 01:38:30.640 --> 01:38:33.079 I couldn't break anybody's name down. That's what that gave 1774 01:38:33.159 --> 01:38:33.359 to me. 1775 01:38:33.600 --> 01:38:37.640 I feel like it was interesting because April and Silki 1776 01:38:37.800 --> 01:38:40.239 had been sort of like giving each other a lot, 1777 01:38:41.319 --> 01:38:45.560 and so it was interesting to see how quickly. But yeah, 1778 01:38:45.640 --> 01:38:49.199 so it was interesting to see how quickly, Like I 1779 01:38:49.239 --> 01:38:51.560 felt like, ALLSOK had to do was ask April for 1780 01:38:51.680 --> 01:38:52.439 her point and she. 1781 01:38:52.560 --> 01:38:55.439 Gave it like it was not there was no objection, 1782 01:38:55.840 --> 01:38:57.760 which I was just like, what is that about? 1783 01:38:59.199 --> 01:39:04.159 Over in nearing the game, Yeah, because I called it 1784 01:39:04.279 --> 01:39:08.439 from the first episode, I was like, oh, Silky and 1785 01:39:08.479 --> 01:39:09.199 Crystal are going. 1786 01:39:09.600 --> 01:39:09.800 Yes. 1787 01:39:09.920 --> 01:39:13.479 I was like, if any or if Silky's not, it's 1788 01:39:13.600 --> 01:39:14.279 as Cities. 1789 01:39:14.800 --> 01:39:15.840 Well, I thought, I. 1790 01:39:15.920 --> 01:39:19.159 Thought because of the ron come, I thought, No, I didn't. 1791 01:39:19.439 --> 01:39:20.720 I thought Celena was because of. 1792 01:39:20.760 --> 01:39:24.680 The the redemption of the lip sync with a Carria. 1793 01:39:24.920 --> 01:39:26.800 That's what That's what I was thinking about. 1794 01:39:27.319 --> 01:39:30.000 Yes, But I also was thinking like, well, out of 1795 01:39:30.039 --> 01:39:33.960 this crop of queens, who has been like most improved. 1796 01:39:34.239 --> 01:39:36.000 And this goes to what you were talking about, Kia, 1797 01:39:36.079 --> 01:39:39.600 about like the entitlement as titties have. And I can 1798 01:39:39.720 --> 01:39:42.000 see how this happens to a lot of queens. When 1799 01:39:42.000 --> 01:39:45.920 they come on All Stars, they jam, they took, they 1800 01:39:46.119 --> 01:39:47.239 took all the critique. 1801 01:39:47.279 --> 01:39:49.960 Now Jam was season twelve. I'm watching Jan's first season. 1802 01:39:50.119 --> 01:39:57.399 Now she worked mine, You're about to be Where's But 1803 01:39:57.560 --> 01:39:59.600 then when she gets to All Stars it's like damn. 1804 01:40:00.680 --> 01:40:04.800 But yeah All Stars it was very much like damn, 1805 01:40:04.880 --> 01:40:07.600 they just don't like you. That's pretty sad. 1806 01:40:09.760 --> 01:40:12.359 She's very talented, but the personality is just not there. 1807 01:40:12.439 --> 01:40:15.359 She's irritating. I don't think I would like her neither. 1808 01:40:15.640 --> 01:40:16.680 Because I mean thirsty. 1809 01:40:16.760 --> 01:40:18.399 I like her now she's too thirsty. 1810 01:40:18.479 --> 01:40:20.520 But I need to watch on drag Race. 1811 01:40:20.640 --> 01:40:22.399 Yeah, I didn't watch her All Stars. I need to 1812 01:40:22.439 --> 01:40:25.039 watch her All Star season. But I'm just watched her 1813 01:40:25.119 --> 01:40:26.760 original like drag Race. 1814 01:40:26.720 --> 01:40:27.720 Prepared to be sad. 1815 01:40:28.680 --> 01:40:32.239 Yeah, she had a really sad especially the Madonna episode. 1816 01:40:32.399 --> 01:40:36.079 It's the Madonna episode. They just did the Madonna rusical 1817 01:40:36.439 --> 01:40:37.239 in season twelve. 1818 01:40:37.439 --> 01:40:40.520 Yeah, that was so bad. That was episode. 1819 01:40:40.560 --> 01:40:41.920 Oh yeah, Crystal. 1820 01:40:44.920 --> 01:40:47.960 Became Madonna. Oh yeah, the. 1821 01:40:48.159 --> 01:40:50.880 Transformed into Madonna because the rehearsal was given, like g 1822 01:40:51.039 --> 01:40:52.359 G girl, what's having it? 1823 01:40:52.880 --> 01:40:55.760 Oh? Yeah, baby baby, dear baby. Yeah, it was given. 1824 01:40:56.600 --> 01:40:59.319 Or but then she showed out at the at the rusical, 1825 01:40:59.600 --> 01:41:01.600 which was like, okay, I didn't see that coming. 1826 01:41:02.199 --> 01:41:04.520 Presenting our very own girly show. 1827 01:41:05.039 --> 01:41:10.239 It's the world premiere of Madonna the unauthorized rusical. 1828 01:41:13.439 --> 01:41:18.600 Legohnna asked, lover, I think I got the episode where 1829 01:41:19.319 --> 01:41:20.359 Widow guys sent home? 1830 01:41:21.399 --> 01:41:24.279 Oh was that Stash game? 1831 01:41:24.880 --> 01:41:31.520 No, she got sent home after the debates. Yeah, yeah, 1832 01:41:31.600 --> 01:41:34.359 they did this snatch did they do? Yes, they did 1833 01:41:34.439 --> 01:41:38.439 snatch game? Because what's the name? 1834 01:41:39.840 --> 01:41:43.960 Uh uh, what's it? The one she was Cardi Beach, 1835 01:41:44.079 --> 01:41:46.039 what's her name? I'm thinking about the little one. 1836 01:41:46.760 --> 01:41:47.640 I gotta rewatch. 1837 01:41:48.159 --> 01:41:50.720 I gotta rewatch Pandemic season. 1838 01:41:52.520 --> 01:41:56.880 I think after Black Widow went home, it's when they 1839 01:41:56.960 --> 01:41:57.199 had to go. 1840 01:41:57.520 --> 01:42:05.439 That is that Tina Berner season? No, No, that's it's 1841 01:42:05.920 --> 01:42:07.520 Jackie Jackie Cock. 1842 01:42:08.640 --> 01:42:12.159 HEIDII finally landed. 1843 01:42:14.079 --> 01:42:15.279 How do you I think? How do you do? 1844 01:42:15.600 --> 01:42:15.880 I think? 1845 01:42:16.159 --> 01:42:16.880 How do you go home? 1846 01:42:17.079 --> 01:42:17.319 Next? 1847 01:42:17.520 --> 01:42:21.039 I don't know where is Heidi? How you came to 1848 01:42:21.159 --> 01:42:21.680 All Stars? 1849 01:42:21.760 --> 01:42:22.039 She did? 1850 01:42:22.319 --> 01:42:24.880 She did have an All Stars wasn't she But I. 1851 01:42:24.920 --> 01:42:26.079 Feel like she's been quiet. 1852 01:42:26.239 --> 01:42:30.159 There's a new show, so it's on our TV. It's 1853 01:42:30.239 --> 01:42:37.720 with s titties, Heidi, Marsha, Marcia and Marsha. They're all 1854 01:42:37.760 --> 01:42:43.680 living in a house and being queens. You know what 1855 01:42:43.800 --> 01:42:47.119 is doing now is a woman in Paris. 1856 01:42:47.279 --> 01:42:49.960 Yeah, yeah, she left the country. 1857 01:42:50.199 --> 01:42:54.119 She's she is a woman in Paris. Literally I wanted 1858 01:42:54.159 --> 01:42:57.039 her to do us get a salon, but hey, people have. 1859 01:42:57.079 --> 01:42:59.880 Different because that bitch with want some hair, that bitch 1860 01:43:00.680 --> 01:43:08.039 the fact that please yeah did amonaire? But sorry, that 1861 01:43:08.159 --> 01:43:09.800 was a very long long wave before. 1862 01:43:11.760 --> 01:43:14.800 But yes, I will, yeah, we should reconnect. 1863 01:43:14.880 --> 01:43:17.079 I'm interested to see what this week's episode is going 1864 01:43:17.119 --> 01:43:21.159 to give because this isn't it the third Brad and discuss. 1865 01:43:21.399 --> 01:43:24.840 I will I sure wear bracket. I will I love that? 1866 01:43:25.640 --> 01:43:32.520 Okay, Petty Peas, here's what I want to say. Why 1867 01:43:32.800 --> 01:43:34.000 what gets on my nerves? 1868 01:43:34.039 --> 01:43:37.199 Okay? What really jams my clock? Particularly in work settings? 1869 01:43:37.600 --> 01:43:39.199 And this is something that I feel like I've only 1870 01:43:39.319 --> 01:43:44.560 experienced in communicating with men, white men specifically, but men, uh, 1871 01:43:45.680 --> 01:43:48.479 when we're having a conversation and there is a gap 1872 01:43:48.720 --> 01:43:51.840 in understanding or like you know what I'm saying is 1873 01:43:51.960 --> 01:43:52.760 not something that. 1874 01:43:54.960 --> 01:43:55.159 You know. 1875 01:43:55.600 --> 01:43:57.079 It's gonna take some work for us to get to 1876 01:43:57.159 --> 01:44:01.079 a place of share understanding. There's always this assumption if 1877 01:44:01.119 --> 01:44:03.079 they don't understand that I'm confused. 1878 01:44:03.159 --> 01:44:05.159 So a lot of when you're talking, it's like, no, 1879 01:44:05.279 --> 01:44:06.239 I think you're confusing. 1880 01:44:06.319 --> 01:44:09.159 It's like, hold on a minute, Nathan, I'm not confused, 1881 01:44:09.239 --> 01:44:10.079 you're confused. 1882 01:44:10.600 --> 01:44:14.760 I'm very clear you're confused, and I communicator. 1883 01:44:15.159 --> 01:44:15.840 I have stopped. 1884 01:44:15.880 --> 01:44:17.079 I have had to stop. 1885 01:44:17.800 --> 01:44:21.039 Several people in their tracks at work because it's like, 1886 01:44:21.439 --> 01:44:24.079 if I'm explaining something, you can say that what I'm 1887 01:44:24.079 --> 01:44:26.840 saying is confusing. You can say that the way that 1888 01:44:26.920 --> 01:44:29.079 I'm explaining it is not making it clear to you. 1889 01:44:29.840 --> 01:44:31.359 You can you can own that, but you have to 1890 01:44:31.439 --> 01:44:33.920 own that the confusion is yours. You can't project the 1891 01:44:34.000 --> 01:44:36.600 fact that you're confused on everybody else that you're talking to. 1892 01:44:37.119 --> 01:44:40.359 And I'm saying that because when I experience well I've 1893 01:44:40.439 --> 01:44:42.520 never heard a man say that to another man, but 1894 01:44:42.640 --> 01:44:46.159 there's a way that when a man is speaking to 1895 01:44:46.640 --> 01:44:48.920 a woman, and not just me, I've also observed it 1896 01:44:49.239 --> 01:44:52.760 happening between interactions that don't involve me directly. But when 1897 01:44:52.800 --> 01:44:55.000 a man is speaking to a woman and he doesn't 1898 01:44:55.039 --> 01:44:56.960 know what's happening. He will say like, oh, I think 1899 01:44:56.960 --> 01:45:01.760 you're misunderstanding. No, Paul, you're missing understanding. You can say 1900 01:45:01.880 --> 01:45:04.600 I don't know. You can say can you explain that 1901 01:45:04.720 --> 01:45:07.279 to me? You can say I'm confused by what you're saying, 1902 01:45:07.560 --> 01:45:10.039 but you can't assume that because you don't understand. 1903 01:45:10.319 --> 01:45:11.359 We don't understand. 1904 01:45:11.640 --> 01:45:13.159 Okay, I understand. 1905 01:45:14.279 --> 01:45:15.319 You can say that you don't. 1906 01:45:15.359 --> 01:45:18.159 Don't project your lack of understanding onto me. And that's 1907 01:45:18.239 --> 01:45:20.439 my petty p because are you kidding? 1908 01:45:20.560 --> 01:45:22.159 Russell? I will knock you out. 1909 01:45:22.319 --> 01:45:25.520 Do you understand the worst that are coming over my mouth? 1910 01:45:25.960 --> 01:45:28.479 Don't try me because I know what I'm talking about. 1911 01:45:28.640 --> 01:45:33.640 They also fake. They also fake. It's fake confusion oftentimes 1912 01:45:33.720 --> 01:45:35.600 for me to get their way and what they want. 1913 01:45:36.840 --> 01:45:39.720 Short story, When I was in college, I worked at 1914 01:45:39.760 --> 01:45:45.079 Popitos and you had to slide your card to put 1915 01:45:45.159 --> 01:45:47.319 in the people's order or whatever. Right, So we had 1916 01:45:47.359 --> 01:45:50.159 different stations to go and put people's orders in. Yep, 1917 01:45:50.359 --> 01:45:54.000 So I go to I go over to computer slide 1918 01:45:54.039 --> 01:45:56.039 my card. I stopped putting my table's order, and this 1919 01:45:56.159 --> 01:46:01.600 whiteboard comes over and hip bumps me and cancels me 1920 01:46:01.760 --> 01:46:04.560 to slide his card, which automatically cancels my shit out. 1921 01:46:05.119 --> 01:46:07.079 So at first I'm like, of course, I'm like there's 1922 01:46:07.119 --> 01:46:08.960 no way he's that all day like you playing, but 1923 01:46:09.119 --> 01:46:11.279 like I'm not with that right now, so can you stop? 1924 01:46:11.920 --> 01:46:13.680 So I was like hey, and he was a big 1925 01:46:13.760 --> 01:46:16.279 white boy. He's about your size XD but think about 1926 01:46:16.520 --> 01:46:20.840 me and a nigga your size that's white. And so 1927 01:46:21.560 --> 01:46:23.800 I was like, come on, start like cut the bullshit 1928 01:46:23.920 --> 01:46:25.560 like and so I moved him out the way and 1929 01:46:25.640 --> 01:46:28.159 I slide my card skad this nigga did this again, 1930 01:46:28.760 --> 01:46:31.159 So I said, oh, you're not playing, like you're not 1931 01:46:31.359 --> 01:46:34.680 kidding right now. I was like stop because we're going 1932 01:46:34.760 --> 01:46:37.039 to have a problem and I'm gonna get fired, Like 1933 01:46:37.199 --> 01:46:39.840 stop it now. And this nigga called me a bitch. 1934 01:46:40.279 --> 01:46:43.800 Whoa huh call me a bitch? 1935 01:46:43.920 --> 01:46:46.880 What's the issue that he like, go first? He should 1936 01:46:46.880 --> 01:46:47.239 go first? 1937 01:46:47.319 --> 01:46:50.279 Like what, like is there is no explanation as to 1938 01:46:51.079 --> 01:46:53.479 why you bumped me out the way and then you're 1939 01:46:53.520 --> 01:46:55.920 calling me there was nothing? So he calls me a 1940 01:46:55.960 --> 01:46:58.920 bitch and I was like okay, and I knew what 1941 01:46:59.119 --> 01:47:00.800 was getting ready to happen, and I was prepared to 1942 01:47:00.880 --> 01:47:04.279 lose my job. And because he was a big white man, 1943 01:47:04.880 --> 01:47:07.800 I got that right in the throat. 1944 01:47:08.000 --> 01:47:10.079 Throat shint, and I was like, throat good. 1945 01:47:10.399 --> 01:47:13.159 It was more like a throat fists bump. Okay, it 1946 01:47:13.239 --> 01:47:15.159 wasn't quite a punch or I didn't snuff up. It 1947 01:47:15.319 --> 01:47:19.399 wasn't a chop. It was more like a So he 1948 01:47:19.520 --> 01:47:21.720 fell out because he's gasping, you know what I'm saying, 1949 01:47:21.720 --> 01:47:23.680 because there was a wind pipe and he was big, 1950 01:47:24.159 --> 01:47:27.600 the bigger they are, and so he falls. The managers 1951 01:47:27.640 --> 01:47:31.279 are freaking, oh my god, Oh my god, Jake, go 1952 01:47:31.439 --> 01:47:33.239 back in the office. I was like, I gotta put 1953 01:47:33.239 --> 01:47:35.159 their order in. They were like, on the witch table, 1954 01:47:35.439 --> 01:47:38.000 We'll have somebody. I was like, they need it now. 1955 01:47:38.119 --> 01:47:40.720 This is already too much bullshit. No, go back in 1956 01:47:40.800 --> 01:47:42.720 the office right now, Jay, back in the off jail. 1957 01:47:43.319 --> 01:47:46.880 I'm punched and went back to work against Sasin. 1958 01:47:47.520 --> 01:47:52.159 I tried. They were like, no, they had somebody else. 1959 01:47:52.800 --> 01:47:54.239 Like go back and take their order. 1960 01:47:54.479 --> 01:47:56.640 Everybody saw what happened because it happened on the floor 1961 01:47:57.039 --> 01:47:59.279 right The computers are on the outskirts of the floor, 1962 01:47:59.479 --> 01:48:01.399 so it's not my table. Would have been confused as 1963 01:48:01.439 --> 01:48:05.279 to why I go back in the office, I get 1964 01:48:05.399 --> 01:48:07.560 every fucking manager in there. Okay, Now, when you work 1965 01:48:07.600 --> 01:48:10.359 at POP you got a GM, you got a floor manager, 1966 01:48:10.680 --> 01:48:15.520 you got the kitchen manager. Into everything. And I was like, oh, 1967 01:48:15.600 --> 01:48:17.359 it takes all of you. They were like, what were 1968 01:48:17.399 --> 01:48:21.000 you thinking? I said, look at the cameras. He bumped 1969 01:48:21.000 --> 01:48:23.319 me out the way multiple times as I'm putting my 1970 01:48:23.439 --> 01:48:25.680 tables ordering. Now, how would you all like me to 1971 01:48:25.760 --> 01:48:28.159 handle that? When I have asked him several times to 1972 01:48:28.199 --> 01:48:30.359 stop doing it. You could have gone to another computer. 1973 01:48:30.439 --> 01:48:34.399 I was like, you're putting this on me and I 1974 01:48:34.479 --> 01:48:37.000 don't fuck with that. I said that white boy knocked 1975 01:48:37.079 --> 01:48:38.720 me out of the way multiple times. Now, do you 1976 01:48:38.760 --> 01:48:40.800 want to put that on the record, because I'm happy 1977 01:48:40.840 --> 01:48:43.159 to talk about it. They didn't want that kind of smoke. 1978 01:48:43.319 --> 01:48:45.319 So I got sent home for the day and not fired. 1979 01:48:45.560 --> 01:48:47.760 But they never put me on a shift with this motherfucker. 1980 01:48:48.000 --> 01:48:52.199 Good. See, that's why I operate off of them. I'll 1981 01:48:52.279 --> 01:48:53.000 kill this all. 1982 01:48:53.319 --> 01:49:00.159 Exactly like the US government. We all going together, you understand. 1983 01:49:04.039 --> 01:49:07.920 You, it's up to you. We all going together. How 1984 01:49:07.920 --> 01:49:08.279 about that. 1985 01:49:08.760 --> 01:49:12.239 They're entitlement and they're entitled, even and even within conversation 1986 01:49:12.960 --> 01:49:14.960 is infuriating, it's out of control. 1987 01:49:15.159 --> 01:49:18.640 It's wold because it's very much like nah, and I 1988 01:49:18.840 --> 01:49:21.920 just it's very clear, and it's like you wouldn't say 1989 01:49:21.960 --> 01:49:27.479 that to anybody else exactly. So why do you feel comfortable? 1990 01:49:27.520 --> 01:49:29.880 Oh no, I think you're misunderstanding. Oh no, I think 1991 01:49:30.119 --> 01:49:34.520 you're misunderstanding. Like, let's be clear about that, so we 1992 01:49:34.640 --> 01:49:38.039 can get to a place of clarity. I'm even happy 1993 01:49:38.119 --> 01:49:41.479 to say, Okay, I can communicate that better or differently. 1994 01:49:42.039 --> 01:49:45.079 That does not mean that I'm confused or ignorant. It 1995 01:49:45.199 --> 01:49:47.119 means that you don't know, and we can get to 1996 01:49:47.199 --> 01:49:49.119 a place. Yeah, it can get we can get to 1997 01:49:49.159 --> 01:49:51.720 a place where we know. But I just think you 1998 01:49:51.880 --> 01:49:53.720 have to be careful. You let people say that kind 1999 01:49:53.720 --> 01:49:55.479 of stuff to you. That stuff follows you. 2000 01:49:56.000 --> 01:49:57.760 Oh oh, then it's like. 2001 01:49:57.800 --> 01:50:02.079 O Takiya doesn't communicate this, you know, that's like you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, 2002 01:50:02.119 --> 01:50:03.760 So you gotta nip that in the butt and do 2003 01:50:03.840 --> 01:50:07.039 it right away. But that's the pattern that I have noticed, 2004 01:50:07.119 --> 01:50:09.600 particularly as a woman in the workplace, and it's very 2005 01:50:09.680 --> 01:50:11.000 much like, let me help. 2006 01:50:10.840 --> 01:50:13.960 You damn get get the hell out of here. 2007 01:50:14.279 --> 01:50:14.560 Okay. 2008 01:50:15.880 --> 01:50:19.239 That also lends to a larger conversation about how unqualified 2009 01:50:19.319 --> 01:50:20.960 most of them are for the jobs they're in and 2010 01:50:21.000 --> 01:50:22.880 they're only in those jobs because of who they are 2011 01:50:22.960 --> 01:50:25.439 as people. And I'm not gonna have that now because 2012 01:50:25.479 --> 01:50:28.279 we've gone off the rolls multiple times. But they're confused 2013 01:50:28.319 --> 01:50:29.800 because they're dumb and unqualified. 2014 01:50:30.760 --> 01:50:33.039 Mm hmmmm. They're embarrassed by it. 2015 01:50:33.279 --> 01:50:35.279 Yeah, and then they want to make the fact that, 2016 01:50:35.479 --> 01:50:38.159 you know, they want to make you some sort of anomaly. Oh, Tikia, 2017 01:50:38.239 --> 01:50:40.359 you have such a knack for this. It's like no, sis, 2018 01:50:40.399 --> 01:50:42.880 I got a PhD. I went to school for many years. 2019 01:50:43.960 --> 01:50:46.079 I went to school for many years. I know exactly 2020 01:50:46.159 --> 01:50:47.840 how to do this because I trained to. 2021 01:50:47.880 --> 01:50:49.439 Do it because unqualified. 2022 01:50:49.600 --> 01:50:51.039 That's the difference between you and me. 2023 01:50:51.359 --> 01:50:57.000 Okay, I trained, I trained, But that's a different conversation. Well, 2024 01:50:58.199 --> 01:51:01.520 right when petty pet your oh, I just did mine. 2025 01:51:01.560 --> 01:51:04.600 It's a white boy, and I think I think I'm irritated. Yeah, 2026 01:51:04.640 --> 01:51:07.279 I just you know, sandwich it into your sink. I'm 2027 01:51:07.279 --> 01:51:10.880 irritated because they never put me in another shift with 2028 01:51:10.960 --> 01:51:12.600 him again. And you know, I play the long game 2029 01:51:12.680 --> 01:51:14.399 with my enemies, and I have a very short but 2030 01:51:14.520 --> 01:51:17.920 potent list, and so that white boys forever, it's up. 2031 01:51:18.000 --> 01:51:20.079 It's stuck. Also, Dawn who used to work in a 2032 01:51:20.119 --> 01:51:22.119 grill who lives off the Q train, bitch, I haven't 2033 01:51:22.159 --> 01:51:23.800 forgot you. Thirteen years later. 2034 01:51:23.760 --> 01:51:24.319 Thirty. 2035 01:51:27.800 --> 01:51:34.800 Thirteen years please thirty years later, it's still stuck, all right? Oh, XD, 2036 01:51:34.880 --> 01:51:35.479 what's your penny? 2037 01:51:38.720 --> 01:51:42.439 I have been thinking about this for a while, So 2038 01:51:43.399 --> 01:51:48.199 this this week I was blessed with the opportunity to 2039 01:51:48.399 --> 01:51:52.720 go see a film called Scary Movie twenty twenty six. Oh, 2040 01:51:53.039 --> 01:51:53.640 I've heard this. 2041 01:51:54.000 --> 01:51:58.760 Isn't it like the Tail? It is, it's it's it's 2042 01:51:58.840 --> 01:52:00.319 fast and furio. Wow. 2043 01:52:00.479 --> 01:52:07.760 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah we we Jada and I saw 2044 01:52:07.840 --> 01:52:12.039 it and it was fine and all that stuff. But 2045 01:52:12.399 --> 01:52:18.000 what really pissed me off is the after effect of 2046 01:52:18.800 --> 01:52:21.079 the movie. Right, And it's kind of to your point 2047 01:52:21.119 --> 01:52:23.880 to key in this idea of when and I guess 2048 01:52:23.960 --> 01:52:26.039 to me is like working as a part time comedians, 2049 01:52:26.079 --> 01:52:29.039 sometimes I hate when people like try to defend jokes 2050 01:52:29.119 --> 01:52:33.079 or sometimes especially like like when the Kevin Kevin Hart 2051 01:52:33.199 --> 01:52:36.159 roast thing came out, there was so many comedians going 2052 01:52:36.239 --> 01:52:38.640 out to defend and extend their necks out for no 2053 01:52:38.880 --> 01:52:42.039 fucking reason. It's okay to shut the fuck up. Sometimes. 2054 01:52:42.239 --> 01:52:48.079 But AnyWho, so when it came so when it comes 2055 01:52:48.079 --> 01:52:50.359 to this movie, you know, it's art. You people are 2056 01:52:51.479 --> 01:52:53.279 able free to interpret the way they would like. 2057 01:52:55.119 --> 01:52:55.520 Art is. 2058 01:52:55.680 --> 01:52:58.159 You know, it's subjective. Some people call it art. 2059 01:52:58.239 --> 01:53:02.239 It is a motion picture picture. 2060 01:53:02.640 --> 01:53:10.359 Yeah, so I think the movie. If I'm going to 2061 01:53:10.479 --> 01:53:13.399 be complimentary, I would call it hot, garbage and cheese. 2062 01:53:13.399 --> 01:53:14.960 I'm gonna say it's stunk. What do you mean? 2063 01:53:17.119 --> 01:53:20.880 Like that is as far as uh compliments go for me? 2064 01:53:21.119 --> 01:53:23.600 Like Cats, the movie was better. 2065 01:53:26.760 --> 01:53:29.920 Yeah, how deeply uncomfortable. We all felt looking. 2066 01:53:30.039 --> 01:53:35.119 Uncomfortable, but that was interesting to watch. This was I 2067 01:53:35.199 --> 01:53:37.239 could have been at home and saw this on the YouTube. 2068 01:53:38.800 --> 01:53:43.319 But what irritated me is the fact that like, oh, 2069 01:53:43.800 --> 01:53:47.199 you don't like X comedy or you don't find this comedy, 2070 01:53:47.239 --> 01:53:49.359 you don't find this funny because X, Y and Z 2071 01:53:49.640 --> 01:53:52.680 and I understand that comedy is subjective and stuff, but 2072 01:53:52.760 --> 01:53:56.119 there are just some things that are categorically unfunny. But honestly, 2073 01:53:57.560 --> 01:54:00.079 you should you got the money, right, you know what 2074 01:54:00.119 --> 01:54:02.920 I mean? You don't have to beat down my throat 2075 01:54:02.960 --> 01:54:05.319 about why I need to like this movie. I bought 2076 01:54:05.359 --> 01:54:06.079 the ticket part and. 2077 01:54:06.079 --> 01:54:09.960 I don't I don't have to like whatever the cases 2078 01:54:10.039 --> 01:54:13.119 and movies like. It's okay, bro, I don't have to 2079 01:54:13.279 --> 01:54:13.439 like it. 2080 01:54:14.800 --> 01:54:16.520 I don't have to like it. 2081 01:54:16.880 --> 01:54:19.439 Yeah, and I and I and I think that's what 2082 01:54:19.560 --> 01:54:23.159 I get irritated about, Like just creators in general, how 2083 01:54:23.199 --> 01:54:30.119 they feel embolden and entitled to your like because they 2084 01:54:30.199 --> 01:54:33.800 think social media likes or real likes in real life, 2085 01:54:35.439 --> 01:54:39.319 but people think that they're entitled to your favoritism, your 2086 01:54:40.159 --> 01:54:44.000 uh what you find to deem as an escape mechanism, right, 2087 01:54:44.119 --> 01:54:53.199 And it's like that's super dumb, right and selfish, right, 2088 01:54:53.279 --> 01:54:57.199 Like I think because everybody's moving this this individualism, right, 2089 01:54:57.439 --> 01:55:00.640 because I always talk about how the I the idea 2090 01:55:00.640 --> 01:55:05.239 of the algorithm is going to kill us all psychologically 2091 01:55:05.279 --> 01:55:07.760 because the fact that everybody thinks everything is around them 2092 01:55:08.239 --> 01:55:12.680 they can critique it, make everything to their liking and 2093 01:55:12.920 --> 01:55:16.039 not realizing that they're blocking out the world world. 2094 01:55:17.239 --> 01:55:19.680 Or your opinions and preferences in that way. 2095 01:55:20.239 --> 01:55:21.000 Yes, and it is. 2096 01:55:21.239 --> 01:55:22.439 It's unrealistic. 2097 01:55:22.760 --> 01:55:26.039 Yeah, it's unrealistic for you to to move about the 2098 01:55:26.119 --> 01:55:30.760 world thinking that you can always dissociate or remove yourself 2099 01:55:30.800 --> 01:55:32.359 from uncomfortable things and people. 2100 01:55:32.600 --> 01:55:33.439 That's not real life. 2101 01:55:35.920 --> 01:55:39.319 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think My petty people ultimately is 2102 01:55:39.399 --> 01:55:40.720 people who are afraid of friction. 2103 01:55:41.680 --> 01:55:44.760 Conflicts, different conflict. 2104 01:55:44.560 --> 01:55:48.560 Big difference because if I if I were to say, 2105 01:55:48.600 --> 01:55:50.199 if everybody in the world would say, I like this 2106 01:55:50.359 --> 01:55:53.600 fucking movie, then they're gonna keep making the same horror movie. 2107 01:55:53.680 --> 01:55:55.840 Correct, correct, yeah, correct, you know. 2108 01:55:55.880 --> 01:55:59.079 What I mean, Like I need there needs to be 2109 01:55:59.159 --> 01:56:02.840 critique and honest critique about things and the way we 2110 01:56:03.000 --> 01:56:06.199 live and have honest dialogue about things the way we 2111 01:56:06.279 --> 01:56:07.920 get to a better understanding of who we are as 2112 01:56:07.920 --> 01:56:11.359 the people to make a path forward to being better. 2113 01:56:11.680 --> 01:56:16.520 Yes, And we can be critical without being harmful, without 2114 01:56:16.560 --> 01:56:21.199 being dismissive or out, without being violent or negative or problematic. 2115 01:56:21.600 --> 01:56:23.399 We can just simply say you know. 2116 01:56:23.760 --> 01:56:26.399 Or we can push, we can interrogate, we should question, 2117 01:56:26.640 --> 01:56:30.000 We could be curious like that's natural and normal and 2118 01:56:30.079 --> 01:56:32.520 those are the things that keep our brain engage. I 2119 01:56:32.600 --> 01:56:35.720 think this is super important now because all of this 2120 01:56:35.960 --> 01:56:40.319 consensus and going along, it's really just helping the people 2121 01:56:40.560 --> 01:56:44.680 not to use their brains in a way that is concerning. 2122 01:56:45.760 --> 01:56:50.840 Yes, yes, yes, m And I love that idea of 2123 01:56:50.960 --> 01:56:53.680 the algorithm because it's true. It's ruining everything. 2124 01:56:55.359 --> 01:56:55.720 You see. 2125 01:56:55.880 --> 01:56:57.640 Another component of white supremacy. 2126 01:56:58.720 --> 01:57:02.920 Yeah, of course warn dust, but hey didn't They don't 2127 01:57:02.920 --> 01:57:06.600 believe all their own ways and that's another conversation. They 2128 01:57:06.640 --> 01:57:09.039 don't trust each other. But that's not me. 2129 01:57:09.399 --> 01:57:12.680 We gotta pay. Yeah, we have to pay for the 2130 01:57:12.720 --> 01:57:16.319 back that they don't trust each other and justifiably. 2131 01:57:16.399 --> 01:57:20.800 I'll just maybe if you would just be better, you 2132 01:57:20.880 --> 01:57:23.119 won't put so much effort into the things that just 2133 01:57:23.199 --> 01:57:24.960 don't make things better. It's so crazy. 2134 01:57:25.720 --> 01:57:27.720 They got to redefine better and ship like that. 2135 01:57:28.000 --> 01:57:31.359 We don't have that kind of and they may not anyway. 2136 01:57:31.479 --> 01:57:33.560 Thank you all so much for listening to both Jada 2137 01:57:33.560 --> 01:57:36.079 and next D and getting grown, getting Jada NEXTD. 2138 01:57:36.000 --> 01:57:37.640 Getting Jaden next D grown. 2139 01:57:38.039 --> 01:57:46.039 Yeah yeah, thank you to doctor Winder yes and sharing 2140 01:57:46.119 --> 01:57:48.800 such an important and necessary conversation. Once again. You all 2141 01:57:48.840 --> 01:57:51.199 can find the links to the book in the in 2142 01:57:51.319 --> 01:57:56.199 your various description boxes across the board. Uh and sister 2143 01:57:56.319 --> 01:57:58.399 take them out and tell everyone what to do. 2144 01:57:59.039 --> 01:58:02.479 Okay, I will, oh, you know, just say thanks and 2145 01:58:02.640 --> 01:58:05.680 hay and to all of the Jaden XT audience. 2146 01:58:05.760 --> 01:58:07.399 I love to hang out with you guys, so I 2147 01:58:07.560 --> 01:58:08.359 just want to say hi. 2148 01:58:08.960 --> 01:58:11.880 And also to everyone, y'all know how we do we 2149 01:58:11.960 --> 01:58:14.960 want to make sure that you are moisturizing your mind. 2150 01:58:15.159 --> 01:58:17.560 And you do that by minding your business, okay, not 2151 01:58:17.680 --> 01:58:20.039 worried about what the other people are doing. You got 2152 01:58:20.159 --> 01:58:22.439 to let them do them, and we got to worry 2153 01:58:22.439 --> 01:58:25.800 about ourselves as a people. That feels very pertinent to 2154 01:58:25.840 --> 01:58:27.239 stay algorithm. 2155 01:58:27.399 --> 01:58:27.880 That's right. 2156 01:58:29.479 --> 01:58:33.279 Secondly, you want to hydrate your body, right, That's how 2157 01:58:33.279 --> 01:58:38.920 you keep your body moist and supple and growing and agile, especially. 2158 01:58:38.600 --> 01:58:39.520 Around your joints. 2159 01:58:39.640 --> 01:58:42.279 Okay, you because very poor and as we age, hello, 2160 01:58:42.760 --> 01:58:46.640 so drink drinking your water as much water as your 2161 01:58:46.680 --> 01:58:48.039 body can sustain every day. 2162 01:58:48.159 --> 01:58:49.159 Okay, that's how you do that. 2163 01:58:49.319 --> 01:58:51.439 Cocon Oil is also good for that, absolutely. 2164 01:58:51.840 --> 01:58:55.000 And finally, speaking of coconut oil, you want to moisturize 2165 01:58:55.039 --> 01:58:58.479 your skin, Okay, but not with coconut not because it's 2166 01:58:58.520 --> 01:58:59.319 not comemotogenic. 2167 01:58:59.399 --> 01:59:04.399 It will clock you. But yeah, so make sure 2168 01:59:04.439 --> 01:59:06.880 That you are moisturizing your skin, which is your largest 2169 01:59:07.079 --> 01:59:10.760 organ and that is foundational and fundamental to making sure 2170 01:59:10.800 --> 01:59:13.680 that you're black does not crack, because it will if 2171 01:59:13.720 --> 01:59:24.119 it's dry by eye way, yes, moving