1 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:39,679 Speaker 1: If you want to support the show and get the 2 00:00:39,719 --> 00:00:44,159 episodes early and ad free, head on over to Freemanbeyond 3 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,920 the Wall dot com forward slash Support. I want to 4 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:52,600 explain something right now. If you support me through substack 5 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,240 or Patreon, you have access to an RSS feed that 6 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,799 you can plug into any podcast including Apple, and you'll 7 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,799 be able to listen to the episodes through there. If 8 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,400 you support me through a subscribe, Star, gum Road or 9 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,000 on my website directly, I will send you a link 10 00:01:12,079 --> 00:01:14,519 where you can download the file and you can listen 11 00:01:14,519 --> 00:01:18,599 to it any way you wish. I really appreciate the 12 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,920 support everyone gives me. It keeps the show going. It 13 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,519 allows me to basically put out an episode every day now, 14 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,680 and I'm not going to stop. I'm just going to accelerate. 15 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,319 I think sometimes you see that I'm putting out two 16 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:37,200 even three a day, and yeah, I can't do it 17 00:01:37,239 --> 00:01:40,159 without you, So thank you for the support. Head on 18 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,200 over to Freeman Beyond the Wall dot com, forward slash 19 00:01:43,239 --> 00:01:48,959 Support and do it there. Thank you. I want to 20 00:01:48,959 --> 00:01:51,640 welcome everyone back to the Pekingana Show and I want 21 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,200 to welcome back Jay Autopoul. How are you doing? How 22 00:01:54,159 --> 00:01:58,560 are you doing at the good cool. So let's get 23 00:01:58,599 --> 00:02:02,680 into some history here. When you reached out to me, 24 00:02:03,359 --> 00:02:07,959 I guess you decided upon a little history of Germans 25 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,599 in the Soviet Union prior to World War two and 26 00:02:10,719 --> 00:02:14,319 during World War two. And yeah, I don't think. I 27 00:02:14,319 --> 00:02:18,159 think last time we touched more on the polls and 28 00:02:18,319 --> 00:02:21,319 just really touched upon this subject. So where do you 29 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:22,120 want to start. 30 00:02:23,199 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 2: Well, start anywhere. 31 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:30,319 Speaker 3: So the German colonists started arriving in the Russian Empire 32 00:02:30,439 --> 00:02:37,080 in the late eighteenth century. The first German colonist proper 33 00:02:37,719 --> 00:02:41,039 outside of the Baltic region, where they weren't really colonists 34 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:45,039 but conquerors, was established in seventeen sixty four in the 35 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:53,400 Volga and then after that, starting really after eighteen oh four, 36 00:02:53,479 --> 00:02:57,560 although there's earlier settlements in the Black Sea region, particularly 37 00:02:57,719 --> 00:03:03,520 Ukraine and Crimea, and then later the Transcaucasus. In eighteen 38 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:08,919 eighteen settlements in Georgia, and they spread out eastward into 39 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:16,039 Kazakhstan and Central Asia and starting fairly late in nineteen 40 00:03:16,039 --> 00:03:19,800 o seven into Siberia. Most of them are still living 41 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:24,120 in the Volga and Black Sea regions up until the 42 00:03:24,159 --> 00:03:29,479 Second World War, when they are forcibly deported into kazakh 43 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:34,120 Dan and Siberia, and almost the entire German population of 44 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:39,840 European USSR is ethnically cleansed. But this is a process 45 00:03:39,879 --> 00:03:45,039 that begins considerably earlier in the Soviet regime of kind 46 00:03:45,039 --> 00:03:50,560 of ratcheting up anti German repression through the nineteen thirties 47 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:51,240 in particular. 48 00:03:53,199 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: Well, I think the last time you talked to you, 49 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,599 you said that basically what was happening was there was 50 00:03:58,639 --> 00:04:05,039 a growing suspicion of diaspora peoples within the Soviet Union 51 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:06,439 that actually had a homeland. 52 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:13,159 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, So all of the diaspora groups except for Jews, 53 00:04:13,599 --> 00:04:20,079 Assyrians and Gypsies were subject to national operations in thirty 54 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:21,199 seven and thirty. 55 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 2: Eight by the NKVADAY. 56 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 3: We had mass arrests and executions in the diaspora population 57 00:04:28,959 --> 00:04:32,480 on the basis that they were spies for their home government, 58 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,000 or in the case of the Koreans who were forcibly 59 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:40,680 resettled in Central Asia in thirty seven from the Far East, 60 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,199 that they were working for the Japanese who were their 61 00:04:43,199 --> 00:04:48,519 colonial power. But the Germans were hit the second hardest 62 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,800 after the Poles. In thirty seven thirty eight, about five 63 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,680 percent of the entire German population in the Soviet Union 64 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,160 was executed, but it was pretty much the top five 65 00:04:58,199 --> 00:05:02,439 percent as far as education levels, and it was particularly 66 00:05:02,519 --> 00:05:06,759 hard hit in the area around Odessa in Ukraine, which 67 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,959 had a population of almost one hundred thousand Germans before 68 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:16,319 the Second World War and being ethnically cleansed into Kazakhstan. 69 00:05:17,639 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: Is there are there any numbers on how many of 70 00:05:19,879 --> 00:05:23,199 those were how many of the Germans who were there 71 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,680 were actually ethnic Germans and not German Jews who just 72 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:27,720 made their way into. 73 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:33,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, the Soviet nationality classification have Nemets for German 74 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,920 and yevre for Jew. So when they say nemets in 75 00:05:38,959 --> 00:05:43,639 the Soviet archival documentation, they're talking about ethnic Germans, people 76 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:48,600 that are predominantly of Lutheran background, with a large Catholic 77 00:05:48,639 --> 00:05:56,319 minority about twenty percent and a smaller Mennonite minority depending 78 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,879 on the region, between five and ten percent, but mostly 79 00:06:01,439 --> 00:06:06,560 Lutherans by religion, and they were still mostly practicing all 80 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:11,199 the way up into the nineteen thirties before the massive 81 00:06:11,199 --> 00:06:12,759 anti religious campaigns. 82 00:06:14,319 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: So you said about five percent the top the top 83 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,040 five percent were taken out. I assume that would be 84 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,240 educated business owners things like that people of means people 85 00:06:24,319 --> 00:06:26,839 who people who thought they may have influence outside of 86 00:06:26,879 --> 00:06:31,480 the country. The other ninety five percent what happens to 87 00:06:31,519 --> 00:06:34,759 them as war grows and well. 88 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 3: So thirty seven thirty eight comes after the dispossession and 89 00:06:44,879 --> 00:06:46,399 decoulakization of. 90 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 2: The richer Germans. 91 00:06:51,199 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 3: But with the case of the Germans, unlike with Russian 92 00:06:55,519 --> 00:06:59,160 and the Ukrainian, the Soviet officials pretty much decided that 93 00:06:59,199 --> 00:07:05,000 all Germans were Ulachs. In certain areas. For instance, in Turkmenistan, 94 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:10,439 the government actually stated that it was impossible to collectivize 95 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:12,759 the Germans, so they all to be deported as kulas 96 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:17,079 because they were all Kulach colonizers to the marrow of 97 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,480 their bones, with the phrase used by the officials. But 98 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,839 also there admistioned that the vast majority in some areas 99 00:07:25,879 --> 00:07:31,319 the Germans being deported as kulaks to special settlement villages 100 00:07:31,319 --> 00:07:34,000 in the far North, and the Euros were in point 101 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,240 of fact, not kulaks by the Soviet definition, but Middle 102 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,639 peasants instead, But because they were ethnically German, they are 103 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:47,560 automatically assumed to be Kulaks by the. 104 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,319 Speaker 2: NKVT operatives working on the ground. 105 00:07:48,519 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 3: So this is already in nineteen thirty happening, and that's 106 00:07:53,399 --> 00:07:57,720 about maybe fifty thousand Germans of maybe four percent of 107 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:02,480 the population, which is consider greater than the one point 108 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,639 two percent of the population Soviet of the whole that 109 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,560 deported as kulak at this time. But you can see 110 00:08:09,639 --> 00:08:14,879 it darts rat up. You're four percent deported, five percent executed. 111 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:19,360 And then in forty one, one hundred percent in the 112 00:08:19,439 --> 00:08:27,199 European areas forcibly relocated into Kazakhdan and Siberia, and then 113 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,319 later all of the able bodied adult men first and 114 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:37,519 then after October seventh, nineteen forty two women as well 115 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:42,240 mobilized into the labor army to work in gulag camps, 116 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:47,720 mostly in the urals, felling trees or in industrial construction. 117 00:08:49,879 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 1: When you take into consideration that the attitude of international 118 00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:02,679 jewelry outside of Russia towards Germans over a long period 119 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,120 of time. But let's just go from like nineteen from 120 00:09:05,159 --> 00:09:07,639 the time the National Socialists take power in nineteen thirty three, 121 00:09:08,919 --> 00:09:13,559 how what percentage at this time, from thirty six thirty 122 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,279 seven and then going through thirty seven thirty eight, going 123 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:21,200 through to the war, what percentage of the NKVD, and 124 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,799 these groups that would be concentrating on Germans are actually 125 00:09:25,879 --> 00:09:32,080 ethnically Jewish, and I assume it's just the same kind 126 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:36,799 of animus towards the German people that they that was 127 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:38,840 happening in the quote unquote free world. 128 00:09:39,639 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 3: It was very high in the thirties. So I don't 129 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:49,240 have exact numbers on the before the formation of the 130 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,879 NKDA in nineteen thirty four when it's still the Okpayuh, 131 00:09:53,919 --> 00:09:59,799 but the de facto the head of the Okpayu for 132 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:05,759 most of the detakulakuization period of time is Genrik yea 133 00:10:05,799 --> 00:10:10,200 Gooda and he's number two man do Urrey at the 134 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:15,759 peacetime where he's a sidelined, but the number one man 135 00:10:15,799 --> 00:10:19,799 do Yuri Manzinski was very ill with heart disease all 136 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:24,679 from nineteen twenty three all the way till nineteen thirty four. 137 00:10:24,919 --> 00:10:29,159 So the main man in the Okpau with Genrik Yagoda 138 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:33,039 becomes the first head of the NKA day in nineteen 139 00:10:33,519 --> 00:10:38,320 thirty four. So that's when you have the first mass 140 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,039 wave of repression in the terms of nineteen thirty thirty 141 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:48,360 one roundup of Germans being accued of being Kulak's and 142 00:10:48,879 --> 00:10:55,039 sent to special settlements mostly used for fourth labor and 143 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:59,080 forestry to cut down trees, places like arcangles in the 144 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,639 far North, and of course in the Euros with a 145 00:11:01,639 --> 00:11:05,120 lot of forestry, and in the Vogan German Republic itself 146 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,519 with about six point six percent that was higher than 147 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,600 the German population as a whole. But there are certain 148 00:11:11,639 --> 00:11:16,600 areas like Evapatoria, which is a district in Crimea where 149 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:22,559 seventeen percent of the German population is forcibly deported to 150 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,960 the special settlement villages for fourth labor in nineteen thirty 151 00:11:26,879 --> 00:11:31,039 So after nineteen thirty four we have figures. So in 152 00:11:31,159 --> 00:11:33,960 nineteen thirty four to all the way to the end 153 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:39,279 of the Great Terror and Yejav's removal and replacement Beria 154 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:44,320 November thirty eight, between twenty percent and forty percent of 155 00:11:44,399 --> 00:11:48,039 the top one hundred or so NKVA and A officers 156 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:54,600 are ethnically Jewish. And in the period of time we're 157 00:11:54,639 --> 00:11:57,240 talking of the Great Terror at thirty seven and thirty eight, 158 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,200 as I say, it concentrates in us Ukraine. So the 159 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:07,360 German operation of the total of fifty five thousand convictions, 160 00:12:07,399 --> 00:12:11,240 of which forty two thousand almost are death sentences. Of 161 00:12:11,279 --> 00:12:15,000 those forty two thousand death sentences eighteen thousand and five. 162 00:12:14,879 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 2: Take place in Ukraine. 163 00:12:16,639 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 3: The head of the nkv and A in the Ukraine 164 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,320 in thirty seven and thirty eight is a man named 165 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:26,159 Israel Leaplevski who was a former Bundist the Jewish Nationalist 166 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:30,960 before he became a Bolshevik. The boond was absorbed into 167 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,360 the communist part what becomes the Communist Party of the 168 00:12:33,399 --> 00:12:37,799 Soviet Union, and he specifically asked the head of the 169 00:12:37,919 --> 00:12:41,759 NKBA yejav with not Jewish, although he is the number 170 00:12:41,759 --> 00:12:47,759 two man. Belski, his original name is Abraham Abraham Levin 171 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:53,639 was Jewish during the first part. During the second part 172 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:59,879 of the Nationality operations, so we see Lapleski ask geijav 173 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,320 through up his quota for political arrest including the national 174 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:08,799 operations three separate times. So it wasn't that you hear 175 00:13:08,879 --> 00:13:11,120 that he had no agency. It was all dollin in 176 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,679 y Asia. Lapleshky was pushing to arrest more people on 177 00:13:15,799 --> 00:13:20,759 the National operation from Yasia and did it more than once. 178 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: Well we know that, I mean even up to through today, 179 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:30,399 you see the evidence of the ethnic hatred for Russian 180 00:13:30,519 --> 00:13:33,559 even for not only for Germans, but even for Russians. 181 00:13:34,879 --> 00:13:41,519 So at this point have the Russians, that the ethnic 182 00:13:41,639 --> 00:13:46,240 Russians that needed to be eliminated, have they already been eliminated? 183 00:13:50,279 --> 00:13:51,759 Speaker 2: I'm not sure I understand the question. 184 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,759 Speaker 1: Well, I mean there was an immediate purge after the 185 00:13:56,799 --> 00:14:01,919 Bolshevik Revolution, right, there was, Rightians were ethnic Russians were 186 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,480 killed by Yes, who were Just how long did that continue? 187 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:08,600 Let me I guess how long? 188 00:14:08,879 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 2: Yeah? 189 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 3: The movement to as it were, rehabilitate the Russian nation 190 00:14:15,279 --> 00:14:21,360 from this period of time between nineteen eighteen, really picking 191 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,360 up in nineteen twenty three with the Twelve Party Congress 192 00:14:24,399 --> 00:14:31,720 in Karnazazia, all the way up until really nineteen thirty six, 193 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:36,679 when you have the first phrases of the Russian nation 194 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:43,000 during the Communists they were in Pravda. Yeah, this was 195 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,679 a period of time you have, So it lasts in 196 00:14:46,799 --> 00:14:50,200 nineteen eighteen nineteen thirty six, you have really. 197 00:14:51,519 --> 00:14:52,399 Speaker 2: Kind of a. 198 00:14:52,399 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 3: Campaign, a systematic what they call against great power chauvinism. 199 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,159 But by great power they meant the ethnic Russians who 200 00:14:59,159 --> 00:15:04,559 were more greater percentage of the Soviet Union than they 201 00:15:04,559 --> 00:15:07,600 were Tzari Russia because they lost Finland, Poland at the 202 00:15:07,639 --> 00:15:12,559 Baltic States, so they were over fifty percent majority, but 203 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,480 there was no affirmative action for them like there was 204 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:21,320 every other nationality during this time. And in thirty six 205 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:26,080 you start to change with the new constitution written by 206 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:31,279 Buharan and then you see at the end of the 207 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:36,000 Great Terror, Ja Gootas already been replaced in thirty six 208 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,639 by Jejaf who was half Russian, his mother was Lithuanian, 209 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,639 but he wasn't Jewish. November thirty eight, Beria comes in 210 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,320 and the percentage of Jews in the top ranks of 211 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:51,600 the NKFA day plummets from twenty percent to four percent. 212 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,000 So a few guys still around, like Brenzen who controls 213 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,879 the finances of the NKVA day a Nafthly Frankel, who 214 00:15:59,159 --> 00:16:03,279 was famous from Gulag Archipelago. He's still head of the 215 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:05,919 rail construction for Gulag gula Hid. 216 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 2: During the in. 217 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 3: Part of Stalind well all the way to the end 218 00:16:10,919 --> 00:16:14,399 of Stalin reign. All right, but there's a big decrease then, 219 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,039 and it really I think had to do with a 220 00:16:18,159 --> 00:16:24,120 kind of a conflict based upon region and ethnicity within 221 00:16:24,159 --> 00:16:29,720 the NKA Day. So originally the leadership of the Cheka, 222 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,000 the gay Peyu, Oh Gaypeyu and Nka Day are all 223 00:16:34,039 --> 00:16:37,120 people from the Palist settlement, and they're not all Jewish. 224 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,639 Jagoda is the only one who makes it the very 225 00:16:39,679 --> 00:16:43,080 top of Jewish, but they all are from the Palist 226 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,440 settlement and a lot of them have Jewish spouses. For 227 00:16:46,799 --> 00:16:49,960 the first head of the Cheka, Dzinski, was Polish, but 228 00:16:50,039 --> 00:16:53,679 his wife was Jewish. The second guy, Vinzinsky, is Polish, 229 00:16:53,759 --> 00:16:57,399 but as I said, already assuming power in twenty three, 230 00:16:57,519 --> 00:17:01,799 he's already ha to basically give over running of the 231 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,279 organization to Yagoda because he's not physically able to do 232 00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:09,359 it himself. After you go to Yeja, So all these 233 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,039 people from the areas that were in the Police Lithuanian 234 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:20,319 Commonwealth and then they get basically removed by Bria, whose 235 00:17:20,519 --> 00:17:23,960 center of powers in Georgia. The ethnic Georgian people like 236 00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:29,079 Rapava and Carradza are also ethnic Georgian, ethnic Armenians from 237 00:17:29,079 --> 00:17:34,079 Tabilisi like the Kobolov brothers, So they replace a lot 238 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,799 of the Jews that were in this kind of circle, 239 00:17:38,839 --> 00:17:42,720 along with some Poles and people from Lithuania like gaijav 240 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:49,079 that had dominated the Cheka Gaypeu ob Payu Nkva day 241 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:55,000 all the way from nineteen seventeen up to nineteen. 242 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 2: The end of nineteen thirty. 243 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 1: Eight, consider it to be something targeted when Baria takes 244 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,839 over for the amount of Jews and power in the 245 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:12,319 MKVD two, well, there are. 246 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:17,279 Speaker 3: A lot more Russians, Georgians, Ukrainians appointed, and they said 247 00:18:17,519 --> 00:18:21,359 the Jewish percentage plummets down to four percent, although there's 248 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:25,079 still some high ranking Jews like Baronzone and Frankel. 249 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,400 Speaker 1: But that was targeted. But it was that done on purpose. 250 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, because they were basically different gangs. I mean, it's 251 00:18:31,839 --> 00:18:35,039 just like in the US. Gangs in the Soviet Union 252 00:18:35,079 --> 00:18:38,559 are based upon ethnicity or what they call natanal notes, 253 00:18:38,559 --> 00:18:42,359 which is really ethno racial. In this case, it's a 254 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,400 little bit more complex than that. It's kind of coalitions 255 00:18:46,599 --> 00:18:50,720 of different ethno racial groups. For by geography and that 256 00:18:50,839 --> 00:18:57,920 you had the Jews and Polls in the original dominating 257 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:02,880 the original political police, and then Georgians and Armenians allied 258 00:19:04,079 --> 00:19:08,079 with Russians in the second version of it under Berriam. 259 00:19:08,559 --> 00:19:11,279 But the one big change you do see is that 260 00:19:11,599 --> 00:19:14,480 the mass execution that took place in thirty seven, at 261 00:19:14,519 --> 00:19:18,960 thirty eight under Yezhov and Belski, and then in Ukraine 262 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,799 Laplevsky was head, and then Belarus it was a Boris Berman, 263 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,960 the brother of the head of the Gulag from thirty 264 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:31,759 to thirty seven, Matve Berman. Those are largely replaced by 265 00:19:32,759 --> 00:19:37,480 forced labor, either in labor camps or special settlements, because 266 00:19:37,559 --> 00:19:40,160 Biria thought it was a waste to just shoot people 267 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:41,519 when you could work them to death. 268 00:19:44,079 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: So the in studying the Spanish Civil War and you 269 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,440 look at the officers that were sent to advise there, 270 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:57,279 overwhelmingly I think last I counted, out of eleven of them, 271 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,200 like nine or ten were Jewish, and it seems like 272 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,559 when they got back they were executed. They were the 273 00:20:04,599 --> 00:20:08,960 majority of them were summarily executed. What was that movement 274 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,400 in thirty eight and thirty nine to remove it? Was 275 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,400 that targeting Jews or was that just targeting. 276 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 3: I think it's targeting people that were outside the Soviet Union, 277 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,920 because they also had one of the national operations is 278 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,559 not against the nationality. It's called the Hudderbdzi operation. And 279 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,079 when in thirty six they sold the Chinese Eastern railroad 280 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,839 in Manchuria to the Japanese. They recalled all of the 281 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:38,519 Russian workers back into the Soviet Union, and the people 282 00:20:38,559 --> 00:20:42,400 that were stupid enough to return were either shot the 283 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,240 vast majority of them, or. 284 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 2: Were set into time in a labor camp. 285 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 3: When I would live in Kyrgyzstan, I knew a guy 286 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,480 who spent ten years in a labor camp because he 287 00:20:52,519 --> 00:20:56,759 had returned from working on the railroad in Manchuria. But 288 00:20:56,839 --> 00:20:58,960 he was still alive and spent every day drinking beer 289 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:04,000 and smoking cigarette, enjoying the fact that he'd outlived all 290 00:21:04,039 --> 00:21:07,880 of his professors. But the reason was because they had 291 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,160 spent time outside the Soviet Union and therefore been exposed 292 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:16,640 to foreign ideas or perhaps engaged in conspiracies. So there 293 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:20,759 was that paranoia. I think that people returning from Spain 294 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:25,519 the same idea that they were a suspect for having 295 00:21:25,559 --> 00:21:30,119 been outside the USSR and in contact with foreign environments. 296 00:21:31,079 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: When it came to Russian forces during World War Two, 297 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:40,599 were were there any German conscripts into it? Or were 298 00:21:40,599 --> 00:21:44,160 there any Germans who actually volunteered to fight against their 299 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:44,680 own Yes? 300 00:21:44,759 --> 00:21:48,319 Speaker 3: Yes, In the beginning, there were over thirty three thousand 301 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,640 Volga Germans who were fighting in the Red Army against 302 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:56,119 the Wehrmacht. They put up a Alamo type defense at 303 00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:00,880 breast where they were wiped out by the Wehrmacht. They 304 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,680 were not removed from the military forces of the Soviet 305 00:22:04,759 --> 00:22:07,359 Union until seventh September, and then they were all sent 306 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,079 to force what they called Construction Battalion, and then they 307 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,920 were mobilized into the Labor Army when it's created and 308 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,920 sent to the corrective labor camps of the Gulag in 309 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:25,119 the urals, primarily the fell timber and do inductual construction. 310 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:31,720 Some avoided it by changing their nationality in collaboration with 311 00:22:31,839 --> 00:22:37,200 their commanding officers. Was one famous German soldiers who claimed 312 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:41,440 to be Alzerbaijani. He took the identity of a fallen comrade. 313 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:46,440 There were some that managed to work in the Partisans 314 00:22:46,759 --> 00:22:50,759 Organi the Nkvada to fight against the Germans, but the 315 00:22:50,839 --> 00:22:55,440 numbers are limited because there was in eighth September the 316 00:22:55,559 --> 00:23:01,720 decree to remove all ethnic Germans from all Soviet military institutions. 317 00:23:02,759 --> 00:23:06,160 So there were a handful that we know of that 318 00:23:06,319 --> 00:23:11,519 managed to kind of work around this by claiming other 319 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,599 nationalities and having their commanding officers that go along with 320 00:23:15,759 --> 00:23:19,680 the deception, but not very many the Vath majority of 321 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:25,680 were of the over thirty three thousand that were Volga 322 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,319 German that were still fighting in the Red Army by 323 00:23:28,559 --> 00:23:31,720 September nineteen forty one were all sent to labor camps 324 00:23:31,799 --> 00:23:33,200 by the Soviet government. 325 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:40,599 Speaker 1: You mentioned that certain groups were considered to be cool 326 00:23:40,599 --> 00:23:44,359 ox even if they weren't. How much of how much 327 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,240 of this was at this point, how much of it 328 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:53,400 was actual ideology, the ideology of communism and Bolshevism, and 329 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,920 how much was it just basically there operating on autopilot, 330 00:23:58,079 --> 00:24:01,440 And that's just what you Claire somebody at this point. 331 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 3: I don't think it has much to do with any 332 00:24:05,759 --> 00:24:09,599 type of Marxist ideology. I think a lot of it 333 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:15,880 is just the prejudices these people already had against these groups. 334 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,680 So they have Zaris roots, but of course they're not all. 335 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,359 It's not limited to Russian. Everybody that was in the 336 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,240 kind of Russian environment you read the kind of old 337 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,799 nineteenth century Russian literature, there is the stereotype of the 338 00:24:32,839 --> 00:24:39,079 Germans as being a rich, undeserving colonizers in the Voga 339 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,720 in Ukraine or being exploiters. So during the Civil War 340 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,960 right the anarchis Undernester Makhna, they go after the Mennonites 341 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,200 because Makna had worked for the Mennonites as a farm 342 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,160 hand and didn't like the way he was paid and treated. 343 00:24:57,279 --> 00:25:00,359 So all of the Mennonites that came. 344 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:05,039 Speaker 1: To that's ironic, but. 345 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,799 Speaker 3: In particularly it's quite violent, so much so particularly the 346 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:13,200 rapes of women that for the only time ever the 347 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:18,920 Mennonites in the world, they took up arms, being sponsored 348 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,640 by the German governances during World War One, still nineteen 349 00:25:22,759 --> 00:25:28,319 eighteen before November, to create self protection units. And this 350 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,839 was a big deal for a creed that had been 351 00:25:30,839 --> 00:25:34,839 pacifist in the early sixteenth century. 352 00:25:35,559 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: How much was Asian Russia involved in this? You know, 353 00:25:38,519 --> 00:25:41,640 most people when they think of Russia, you really only 354 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:46,839 think of European Russia, and that the side that is on. 355 00:25:47,039 --> 00:25:50,160 But there's this whole other side which even though much 356 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:56,359 more sparsely, much more sparsely populated and ethnically diverse. Actually, 357 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,039 how much were they pulled in? How much of the 358 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:08,400 Soviet ideology and the Soviet the crushing Soviet hand did 359 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,440 they have to suffer all the way in the East. 360 00:26:11,599 --> 00:26:16,559 Speaker 3: Well, there's not a lot of Central Asians. There are 361 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:21,759 quite a few Caucasians involved in the Soviet government, particularly 362 00:26:22,559 --> 00:26:27,519 before the nineteen fifties, in large part because they're not educated, 363 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,720 in large part because their traditional way of life is 364 00:26:32,759 --> 00:26:39,039 not congruence with the Soviet ideology. So the memberships in 365 00:26:39,079 --> 00:26:42,400 the Communist Party are quite low and the involvement is 366 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,599 largely just on the local basis. But you do have 367 00:26:45,799 --> 00:26:49,079 some groups. So one group which is not well studied. 368 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,400 During World War One, the Russian government brought in a 369 00:26:53,519 --> 00:26:57,720 large number of Chinese workers from China, and during the 370 00:26:57,759 --> 00:27:00,680 Bushvik Revolution most of them sided with the Bulsheviks. 371 00:27:00,759 --> 00:27:02,519 Speaker 2: A lot of them joined the Red Army, and. 372 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 3: There was a Chikai unit noted for its brutality, composed 373 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,039 entirely of Chinese that operated in Ukraine. 374 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 1: So let's switch over a little bit to the war 375 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:22,039 and the Eastern Front. So do you know, do you 376 00:27:22,039 --> 00:27:27,680 have any like general numbers of on the Eastern battlefield, 377 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,079 on the Eastern Front, how many what the population of 378 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:38,319 Jews was. And obviously the Germans are accused and rightly 379 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,079 so in many cases of them just not caring about 380 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,799 any Jewish populations that are on the Eastern Front. When 381 00:27:45,839 --> 00:27:49,359 I say, rightly so, they're accused because they didn't How 382 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,200 much did the Soviets care. It just doesn't seem to 383 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:53,839 me like if you're at war and you're at war 384 00:27:53,839 --> 00:27:58,319 with the Wehrmacht, that you're taking special care to be like, oh, 385 00:27:58,319 --> 00:28:00,039 wait a minute, we can't hurt these. 386 00:28:02,079 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 2: Well. 387 00:28:02,559 --> 00:28:06,079 Speaker 3: The Jewish population in the Soviet Union was probably about 388 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,160 three million at the start of the war when Germany invaded, 389 00:28:10,759 --> 00:28:15,240 and probably about a million were either evacuated or made 390 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,279 it on their own east to the front. 391 00:28:17,599 --> 00:28:20,279 Speaker 2: I went to a conference in. 392 00:28:20,279 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 3: Jerusalem was called Jews and their neighbors in Central Asia 393 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:30,440 about this. So they were disproportionately evacuated because they were 394 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:36,480 disproportionately members of the Communist Party and disproportionately working in 395 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,160 industries that were considered important by the Soviet government and 396 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,000 needed to be evacuated each of the euro to prevent 397 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,880 the Germans from confrum. So as a percentage, much larger 398 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:52,279 number of Jews of their population than non Jews were 399 00:28:52,279 --> 00:28:55,680 officially evacuated by the Soviet government, but it appears to 400 00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:02,680 have been on basis of party membership and necessary occupation 401 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:09,880 rather than Natanalos. So over a third of them were 402 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,920 evacuated East and a lot of them ended up in 403 00:29:13,039 --> 00:29:18,039 Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan, and they. 404 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,839 Speaker 2: Didn't get like with the German departies. 405 00:29:21,279 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 3: The Kazakhs who had to share their house with Jewish 406 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:27,759 evacuees in Kazakhstan, we're not very happy about it. I 407 00:29:27,799 --> 00:29:31,400 talked to one Jewish guy in Israel who ended up 408 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,599 as a child in one of those and he said, yeah, 409 00:29:33,599 --> 00:29:35,400 they didn't really like us coming there because we didn't 410 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,519 speak their language and they had to give up their 411 00:29:37,519 --> 00:29:40,000 space in their house. But I actually understand why they 412 00:29:40,079 --> 00:29:44,480 didn't like it, though there is at least among among 413 00:29:44,559 --> 00:29:51,880 that with that guy, an understanding of the problem. But yeah, 414 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,759 they did have it wasn't it. I don't think we 415 00:29:55,079 --> 00:29:58,960 in the ethnic preference, but certainly due to their higher 416 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:07,240 membership in the party and needed economic industries, they had 417 00:30:07,279 --> 00:30:13,400 a much greater number percentage evacuated than your average Russian 418 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:14,119 or Ukrainian. 419 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: Are there any numbers on the percentage of the civilians 420 00:30:22,359 --> 00:30:25,519 on the Eastern Front that were killed. 421 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:37,359 Speaker 3: It's disputed, but the numbers range from four million civilians 422 00:30:38,319 --> 00:30:41,319 dying in the Soviet Union during the Second World War 423 00:30:41,519 --> 00:30:45,720 due to the Germans. That's in addition to another two 424 00:30:45,759 --> 00:30:49,880 million plus that Stalin killed through labor camps and special 425 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:55,359 settlements and execution, all the way up to ten million civilians. 426 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,160 I tend to go with the lower number, particularly because 427 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,079 the person who came up with the lower numbers, via Zemskoff, 428 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,119 was now dead. He was the first person who would 429 00:31:07,119 --> 00:31:09,440 not a member of the Communist Party, allowed into the 430 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:13,200 Soviet archives to study the Gulag, and he wrote a 431 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:19,119 fantastic book on the special settlement regime kulaks and deported 432 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,720 Germans and other nationalities in two thousand and five, which 433 00:31:23,759 --> 00:31:27,359 is still one of my go to references always. So 434 00:31:28,759 --> 00:31:32,440 I'm more likely to trust Zemskoff, and I am the 435 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,640 official number from the Russian Academy of Sciences, which is 436 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,400 of course as an interest in blowing up the number 437 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,599 of Russian civilians that were killed during the war for 438 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:47,920 its own purposes support the government in Moscow. 439 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,319 Speaker 1: What do you think the numbers were on the war total? 440 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,400 You know, Daryl Cooper mentioned recently in the first episode 441 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:04,240 of Enemies Is German is German Series that sixty million 442 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,599 we could it could be sixty million, some say forty million, 443 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:08,640 some say twenty million. 444 00:32:08,839 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 2: Are we including Asia in the Pacific? 445 00:32:12,839 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: I don't know if he's including Asia in. 446 00:32:14,519 --> 00:32:19,519 Speaker 3: The well, I know, I mean total numbers, you know, 447 00:32:19,839 --> 00:32:23,400 range from the Soviet Union, which would be the largest 448 00:32:23,599 --> 00:32:26,759 number absolute, from twenty to twenty seven million. Twenty seven 449 00:32:26,759 --> 00:32:30,400 million is the official figure. Twenty million is somewhere with 450 00:32:31,039 --> 00:32:33,759 Zemskoff is advocating although. 451 00:32:35,599 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 2: The majority of those military losses and. 452 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,359 Speaker 3: The German losses from what I can say, are about 453 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,680 eight million, five million military and three million civilians. 454 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 2: So sixty sixty. 455 00:32:49,599 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 3: Million looks high, but forty million probably around right there. 456 00:32:55,079 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 2: Certainly lots of people. 457 00:32:57,079 --> 00:32:59,319 Speaker 3: It's hard to do a tabulation because you have to 458 00:32:59,319 --> 00:33:03,359 be an expert every little country in Europe, and you know, 459 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,319 some countries in Europe they look small, but you know 460 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,920 they have large losses, places like Yugoslavia and Poland because 461 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:12,400 the war was quite fierce. 462 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: Was there any hope at all that packs between Russia 463 00:33:21,839 --> 00:33:26,000 and Germany, the Soviet Union in Germany before the war 464 00:33:26,119 --> 00:33:31,039 could have could have lasted, that that it didn't have 465 00:33:31,119 --> 00:33:33,279 to happen, that there there could have been peace. 466 00:33:33,559 --> 00:33:37,599 Speaker 3: I don't know everything I've seen suggests this. Dallin thought 467 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:42,599 that the pact was only temporary so that he could 468 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,079 build up enough forces to invade Germany. 469 00:33:45,519 --> 00:33:46,759 Speaker 2: So if the Germans. 470 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 3: Didn't attack earlier, they were going to get attacked by 471 00:33:49,279 --> 00:33:52,599 the Soviets and be on the defensive, all right. So 472 00:33:54,359 --> 00:34:00,640 I don't see a scenario where the Soviet government under 473 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,279 Stalin decides that it's going to have a permanent peace 474 00:34:04,599 --> 00:34:10,320 with Germany. In fact, if say somebody like Trotsky, there 475 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,079 wouldn't have been any piece at all. 476 00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:15,079 Speaker 2: Thirty nine forty one wouldn't have existed. 477 00:34:15,119 --> 00:34:18,679 Speaker 3: He would have already in the nineteen twenties been trying 478 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,480 to push revolution into Central Europe. 479 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 1: So then you take the narrative of Icebreaker that Subaroff's 480 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:31,039 narrative that. 481 00:34:32,039 --> 00:34:35,760 Speaker 3: I don't think it necessarily is because I think super 482 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:40,239 Off is pushing the date in a way that we 483 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,960 don't have enough evident support. But yeah, I think eventually, 484 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,480 when the Soviet forces get large enough, they would have 485 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,079 invaded everything. 486 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:48,519 Speaker 2: You know. 487 00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:52,559 Speaker 3: You hear from defenders of Stalin today is that the 488 00:34:52,599 --> 00:34:57,320 pact was only temporary because the capitalist powers wouldn't support 489 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,840 him earlier over Czechoslovakia. So eventually he was going to 490 00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:05,039 you know, quote unquote liberate Central Europe. It was yet 491 00:35:05,119 --> 00:35:08,039 they had to get enough military forces. Now I'm not 492 00:35:08,079 --> 00:35:10,800 sure when that would have exactly been. It's not my 493 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:15,559 area of expertise, but yeah, eventually, you know, a couple 494 00:35:15,559 --> 00:35:19,599 of years down the line, they wouldn't have. 495 00:35:19,559 --> 00:35:28,320 Speaker 1: Held well obviously because of American backing, and not only that, 496 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:33,800 but goods transfer, the transfer what was the agreement where 497 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:40,400 the United States was manufacturing the United States was manufacturing 498 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,440 and delivering goods too. Le Lea's Yeah, Lenley's because of 499 00:35:44,519 --> 00:35:49,199 len Lea's. Well, at the end of the war, the 500 00:35:49,199 --> 00:35:52,079 Civic Union ends up with half of Europe anyway. Do 501 00:35:52,159 --> 00:35:56,119 you think that if if Operation Barbarossa doesn't happen, if 502 00:35:56,119 --> 00:35:59,800 he doesn't invade that if they would have been on 503 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,039 the offensive, that the Soviet Union would have taken the 504 00:36:02,039 --> 00:36:02,840 whole peninsula. 505 00:36:04,159 --> 00:36:04,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think. 506 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 3: I think if the Germans hadn't attacked the Soviet Union 507 00:36:08,519 --> 00:36:11,880 in forty one, that eventually, I don't know, would have 508 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:16,079 been forty three or forty four, the Soviet Union would 509 00:36:16,079 --> 00:36:18,639 have attacked Germany. 510 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 2: They would have gone to take. 511 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,199 Speaker 3: The parts of Poland that Germany had taken in nineteen 512 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,320 thirty nine and tried to move as far west as possible. 513 00:36:32,639 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 1: Is that a Is that one of those opinions that 514 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,840 you that gets you in trouble and keeps you out. 515 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:38,360 Speaker 2: I don't know. 516 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,039 Speaker 3: I've been out of academia for so long. There's no 517 00:36:41,119 --> 00:36:44,719 trouble anymore. I just clean toilets now. 518 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 1: Well, we're not ending right now, but this, I guess 519 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,159 this is as good point as any as anybody who's 520 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:59,360 watching who has an inn at any university or any 521 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:05,880 school whatsoever. Doctor Pohl here is looking is looking for 522 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,119 a job because it seems he seems to have been 523 00:37:08,159 --> 00:37:12,159 locked out of academia, and not only in the United States. 524 00:37:12,159 --> 00:37:16,559 I think you overseas, you you're having problems too. 525 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:21,559 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, well, the jobs dried up overseas as far 526 00:37:21,599 --> 00:37:27,320 as foreigners. But the last place I worked, American University 527 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:32,719 of Rasulamania is basically a CIA front who had two goals. 528 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,280 One to keep the curds in Iraq so that the 529 00:37:36,639 --> 00:37:40,880 all the oil is under one central government and two 530 00:37:41,119 --> 00:37:45,960 to impose the lgbt Q upon the Muslim population there. 531 00:37:47,159 --> 00:37:49,400 So they didn't renew my contract when I said they 532 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,119 were stupid. 533 00:37:53,199 --> 00:37:56,559 Speaker 1: Well, anyone who has anyone who can help. Please, you 534 00:37:56,559 --> 00:37:58,599 can reach out to me and I'll make sure to 535 00:37:58,639 --> 00:38:03,280 get get doctor, get the totarchor Paul. The United States 536 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,760 doesn't do len lease, doesn't join the war, there's a 537 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:14,599 Soviet there's the Soviet Union defeat Germany. I was saying, 538 00:38:15,199 --> 00:38:18,679 if if the United States doesn't do len lease, doesn't 539 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,480 completely support the Soviet Union, how does the war go? 540 00:38:24,079 --> 00:38:28,559 Speaker 3: Soviets still might win, but they would take much much 541 00:38:28,599 --> 00:38:33,000 greater losses. It would take them much longer a period 542 00:38:33,039 --> 00:38:36,639 of time, and instead of talking twenty to twenty. 543 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,679 Speaker 2: Seven million, we might be talking. 544 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,119 Speaker 3: One hundred million out of one hundred and seventy two 545 00:38:43,119 --> 00:38:47,440 million people in the Soviet Union dying to try and win. 546 00:38:47,599 --> 00:38:50,679 It would be a very pyrrhic victory if they did win. 547 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,519 Speaker 1: Seems like the meat grinder that we're seeing there today 548 00:38:58,679 --> 00:39:05,800 is somewhat somewhat not similar. But the numbers, at least 549 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,719 on the Ukrainian side, seem to be seem to be 550 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,760 piling up. And when you consider some of the numbers 551 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,719 that are happening today and you compare them in scale, 552 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,440 you know, to the scale of World War Two, we 553 00:39:20,519 --> 00:39:23,239 maybe even be seeing at that scale when you just 554 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,079 consider that this is a historic kind of local war. 555 00:39:29,039 --> 00:39:32,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, some of the local wars get very high 556 00:39:32,679 --> 00:39:39,719 percentages of young men dying. So I think Serbia during 557 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,119 World War One, something like a third of the young 558 00:39:43,199 --> 00:39:49,360 men total died in combat. The war between the Triple 559 00:39:49,400 --> 00:40:03,079 Alliance with the Paraguay a similar percentage. I think, Perish. 560 00:39:59,199 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: When it comes to let's go back, let's go back 561 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:05,239 to Russia a little bit and to their to their 562 00:40:05,599 --> 00:40:10,880 diaspora groups. You said that clearly that the reason why 563 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,800 certain groups were targeted were well, they were members of 564 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,360 an ethnic group that was considered an enemy, and they 565 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:23,280 had a government. And then what happens when Israel comes 566 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,599 into existence in nineteen forty eight, what is the attitude 567 00:40:26,639 --> 00:40:32,039 towards the diaspora. Do Jews in the Soviet Union automatically 568 00:40:32,039 --> 00:40:37,599 become a diaspora Now they can be looked upon with suspicion. 569 00:40:38,199 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 3: It's not automatic because initially the Soviet Union believes that 570 00:40:44,599 --> 00:40:48,960 it can create a socialist state allied with the USSR 571 00:40:49,159 --> 00:40:55,239 in Israel, and it is particularly eager to reduce British power, 572 00:40:55,679 --> 00:41:00,000 and it views the Arab monarchies such as King Abdullah 573 00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:04,159 in Jordan, the king Abdullah, the first of the grandfather 574 00:41:04,199 --> 00:41:06,719 of the current monarch, but also. 575 00:41:06,599 --> 00:41:08,280 Speaker 2: The government in Iraq. 576 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:16,159 Speaker 3: Has British puppets, and also Egypt Evan before Nassar's revolution 577 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:23,800 overthrows the monarchy, so they support the Zionists initially in 578 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,760 nineteen forty eight. In nineteen forty nine, the way of 579 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:33,840 weakening the British way of opposing these reactionary pro British 580 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:39,079 monarchies in the Arab States established really through the League 581 00:41:39,079 --> 00:41:43,239 of Nations mandates which were to give self determination an 582 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:48,360 independence to the Arab states that were taken out of 583 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:59,159 the Ottoman Empire. And this becomes changed later primarily because 584 00:41:59,199 --> 00:42:02,239 the Israelis don't want to go along with the Soviets, 585 00:42:03,119 --> 00:42:08,000 and after Stalin died, there is a change of policy 586 00:42:08,119 --> 00:42:13,119 starting in nineteen fifty four with the Soviets approving a 587 00:42:13,199 --> 00:42:18,320 large sale of Chech weapons to Egypt. After Nasar comes 588 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:26,360 to power, and basically the conflict goes that the Soviets 589 00:42:27,119 --> 00:42:32,400 get tired of Shenanigan by people like go to my 590 00:42:32,519 --> 00:42:37,880 ear who keeps wanting Soviet Jews to come to Israel, 591 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,199 claiming the Soviet Union is anti Semitic, but it's okay 592 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,480 with all the Jews in America just staying in America 593 00:42:44,519 --> 00:42:50,639 and sending money. That didn't go well with the Soviet leadership. 594 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,679 And also the fact that Soviets looked at the map 595 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,599 and said, there's four million Jews in Israel and one 596 00:42:56,679 --> 00:43:01,280 hundred million Arabs, maybe we should support the other side, 597 00:43:01,559 --> 00:43:06,280 especially after the monarchies. Jordan, of course never got overthrown, 598 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,280 but in Iraq there was an overthrow of the monarchy 599 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:13,960 to a secular nationalist government that was much more friendly 600 00:43:14,039 --> 00:43:16,760 to the USSR. And of course NASA coming to power 601 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,440 in Egypt much more favorable to Soviets, which is why 602 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,920 they green light the Czech arm sales. So by the 603 00:43:24,159 --> 00:43:28,719 nineteen fifty six, when the British and French and Israelis 604 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,000 try and take the Suez Canal back from Egypt, which 605 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:36,960 had been nationalized by NASAR, the Soviets are on the 606 00:43:37,119 --> 00:43:41,280 Arab side against the Israelis on this. Ironically, the United 607 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,679 States is as well, because the United States threatened the 608 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:52,039 British to evaluate their pound but if they don't pull 609 00:43:52,119 --> 00:43:55,280 out of attacking Egypt. And this is at the same 610 00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,920 time the Soviets are crushing the Hungarian revolution in Budapest. 611 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:05,480 So it provides a good diversion for the Soviets if 612 00:44:05,519 --> 00:44:08,360 everybody's looking at what the British frends in Israelis are 613 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,519 doing in Egypt rather than what they are doing in Hungary. 614 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:16,480 And then but of course, by nineteen sixty seven, the 615 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,039 Soviet governor Brezhnev is thoroughly with the rest of the 616 00:44:20,039 --> 00:44:25,000 Third world supporting the Arabs against the israel And in 617 00:44:25,079 --> 00:44:30,199 sixty four they start they officially recognize the PLO as 618 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:34,679 the representative of the Palatinian people. So there's a big change, 619 00:44:36,039 --> 00:44:40,239 a lot of it driven by pragmatic geopolitics and real 620 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:45,199 politics that it would be much better for the Soviets 621 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:49,800 internationally to support the larger Arab population against the smaller 622 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:50,840 Israeli one. 623 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,320 Speaker 1: Well, and you see that clearly in the fact that 624 00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:59,519 most of Israel's enemies are using AK forty seven's that 625 00:44:59,559 --> 00:45:03,320 are built in factories. In that the Soviets actually went 626 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,880 to Egypt and went went to other countries and built 627 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,000 factories to basically. 628 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:13,400 Speaker 3: Including in Egypt the AK forty seven factory in Egypt. 629 00:45:14,159 --> 00:45:16,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I actually own one. I actually owned one 630 00:45:16,679 --> 00:45:20,360 of the ones out of that factory. The Yeah, they're 631 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,519 It's really weird to me when people say that, like 632 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:32,480 historically Russia, that the Zionists controlled Russia, when you consider 633 00:45:32,559 --> 00:45:36,400 that all of their enemies were using Russian weapons against them. 634 00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:37,840 Speaker 2: It just changes. 635 00:45:38,199 --> 00:45:40,840 Speaker 3: They initially, I said in forty eight, forty nine, they 636 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,880 support the Zionists, they want to weaken the British, they 637 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:50,199 want to weaken the Arab government that are in their 638 00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:53,519 mind reactionary pro British. But after you have a series 639 00:45:53,599 --> 00:45:58,880 of left wing they're not communists, but they're certainly not 640 00:45:59,079 --> 00:46:03,639 favorable to the West. Revolutions in Egypt and Iraq and Syria, 641 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,800 the Bass that's coming to power in Syria and Iraq, 642 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:13,719 Nasa in Egypt. This all changes. So by nineteen fifty 643 00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:17,719 six you see the Soviets certainly on the Arab side. 644 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:23,239 They had already started supporting with military arms the Egyptian 645 00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:27,119 government of Nasar in fifty four. So there's a change 646 00:46:27,159 --> 00:46:31,519 from the late stalin as There era when they think 647 00:46:31,599 --> 00:46:36,639 they can get a Jewish Soviet people's Republic in Israel 648 00:46:38,119 --> 00:46:44,119 versus supporting what they call the progressive regimes in the 649 00:46:44,119 --> 00:46:48,960 Arab world. These kind of regimed like the Basist in 650 00:46:49,039 --> 00:46:51,480 Syria and Iraq and NASA in Egypt. 651 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:57,760 Speaker 1: So the Soviet Union basically wins World War two. Stalin 652 00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:02,039 at some point once he once the bomb is acquired, 653 00:47:02,079 --> 00:47:04,599 you can consider him to be maybe the most powerful 654 00:47:04,599 --> 00:47:06,199 man in the world, one of the most powerful men 655 00:47:06,199 --> 00:47:10,039 that ever lived. What starts what starts their slide? What 656 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:14,239 do you see as their starts their slide down to 657 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:18,920 where yep, Empires don't fall overnight, they it takes a time. 658 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:29,840 Speaker 3: Well, really, ideologically, I don't think anybody believed in Marxism 659 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:37,360 Leninism even by the time of World War two. But 660 00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:43,280 they then can switch to the Great Patriotic War. It's 661 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,519 kind of a way to mobilize. But then, of course 662 00:47:46,559 --> 00:47:50,239 all the veterans die off and this is not sustainable. 663 00:47:51,599 --> 00:47:56,679 So then they switch like many countries. Ironically a good 664 00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:01,039 parallel to South Korea, where they switched from nationalist anti 665 00:48:01,159 --> 00:48:07,360 Japanese sentiment under Sigmund Reed to economics under Park Chunghi. 666 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:11,360 Because Park chung he fought with the Japanese. They switched to, Okay, 667 00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,400 we can materially give you a better standard of living 668 00:48:14,519 --> 00:48:17,639 than your parents and grandparents had. But the problem was 669 00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,480 they could look and see that, yeah, well, our standard 670 00:48:20,519 --> 00:48:22,920 living is greater than our grandparents, but it's much lower 671 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:26,920 than Western Europe, and it's much lower than Japan, and 672 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,079 places like South Korea are becoming richer than us. This 673 00:48:30,159 --> 00:48:35,159 is not sustainable we're becoming And when it totally stagnates 674 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,880 in the late bridge never it's not getting any better, 675 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,400 and then it starts to get worse, particularly you see 676 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,360 things like the life expectancy of men start to decline. 677 00:48:45,079 --> 00:48:46,519 I think that was the end of because they had 678 00:48:46,519 --> 00:48:50,800 nothing less to legitimize that the revolution itself hadn't been 679 00:48:51,159 --> 00:48:55,039 they say, probably for nineteen forty one a real reason. 680 00:48:56,199 --> 00:48:59,760 And when the Germans invaded, it'd rather than appeal to 681 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:05,239 Mark the Leninism talent, appeal to Russian nationalism for the 682 00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:08,199 majority of the population. And then there were kind of 683 00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:13,639 parallels appeal to each non Russian national nationality that it 684 00:49:13,679 --> 00:49:16,719 would for their nationalism. So you know, you do this 685 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:18,480 for the Curgous nation, or you do this for the 686 00:49:18,599 --> 00:49:21,960 Uzbek nation. It wasn't you do this for Marxism, Leninism 687 00:49:22,039 --> 00:49:23,199 and the Bolshevik Revolution. 688 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:29,119 Speaker 1: How much of it had to do with just sort 689 00:49:29,159 --> 00:49:33,360 of empire where you have satellites in central America, Islands, 690 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:38,440 South America, all through Eastern europe An Empire is very 691 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:38,920 hard to. 692 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:40,599 Speaker 2: Keep. 693 00:49:41,519 --> 00:49:43,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, well it's very expensive. I mean, the Soviets were 694 00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:49,639 giving billions of dollars to places like Cuba, Vietnam, Ethiopia, 695 00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:53,480 and one of the first things, you know, Gorbachev did 696 00:49:53,519 --> 00:49:58,280 was he cut off these client dates right those there Cubas. 697 00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,760 You know this the deal of of one pound of 698 00:50:02,119 --> 00:50:05,079 one you know, barrel of oil for equivalent volume of 699 00:50:05,119 --> 00:50:07,320 sugar is over because oil is worth a lot more 700 00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:12,800 than sugar. And that really crippled the Cuban economy for 701 00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,840 a while because they were dependent upon this heavy subsidy 702 00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:20,440 from the USSR. And you know, certain places like Vietnam 703 00:50:20,639 --> 00:50:23,960 were managed to reform in nineteen eighty three to starting 704 00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,440 a ninety three to avoid famine and did fairly well. 705 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,039 Other places like Ethiopia, you know, the regime ended up 706 00:50:31,039 --> 00:50:34,079 being overthrown and it still got problems of civil war. 707 00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:38,000 Cuba did some reform, so it's not as bad as 708 00:50:38,039 --> 00:50:41,400 it was, but they're still hurting because they still have 709 00:50:41,599 --> 00:50:46,599 a largely socialist economy that is not nearly a dynamic 710 00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:50,159 as the reformed ones in places like Vietnam, and China. 711 00:50:53,559 --> 00:50:56,159 Speaker 1: So after Stalin dies, do you think that a lot 712 00:50:56,159 --> 00:51:00,400 of it just becomes anti West and they see West 713 00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:03,519 as being Zionists controlled. I mean, Yaki writes about this. 714 00:51:04,639 --> 00:51:07,960 There's a lot of writers on the on the new right, 715 00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:12,199 on the well the post war right, the illegal right, 716 00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,599 start writing that, you know, you have to make your choice. 717 00:51:15,599 --> 00:51:17,559 You're either with the Zionists or you're not and the 718 00:51:17,679 --> 00:51:21,400 United States or Zionists controlled. So this is why Yaqui 719 00:51:21,599 --> 00:51:23,360 was like, well, you know, this is why I'm siding 720 00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:27,480 with the Soviet Union basically, or with the warsaw with 721 00:51:27,519 --> 00:51:28,159 the Warsaw Pack. 722 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:28,639 Speaker 2: Yeah. 723 00:51:28,679 --> 00:51:32,039 Speaker 3: Well the Soviet Union, Warsaw Pack state after nineteen sixty 724 00:51:32,079 --> 00:51:36,519 seven war. Uh, they said, the Second and Third World 725 00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:38,599 this is one of their pillars. It was the kind 726 00:51:38,639 --> 00:51:42,000 of there were certain things that kind of like unified them, 727 00:51:42,039 --> 00:51:45,079 and beyond that, there wasn't much that unified the third World. 728 00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:51,440 One of them was opposition to Zionism. Another was opposition 729 00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:54,519 of part heads in South Africa. Another was opposition to the 730 00:51:54,599 --> 00:51:58,559 US intervention of Vietnam, and there was also opposition of 731 00:51:58,639 --> 00:52:03,000 what remained of European colonialism, although as time went on 732 00:52:03,199 --> 00:52:07,000 there were fewer European colonies and they were pulling out 733 00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:16,559 and domestically it was a way to oppose Jewish immigration movement. 734 00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:22,639 So the reason why the Soviets and they got more 735 00:52:23,599 --> 00:52:26,400 grief over this one issue than anything else they did, 736 00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:29,039 even though by far not the worst thing they did, 737 00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:34,000 was they wanted to maintain the retain the educated Jewish 738 00:52:34,039 --> 00:52:37,760 population in the Soviet Union that we're doing things like 739 00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:41,880 being engineers and professors and whatnot, because they didn't want 740 00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,760 to lose that human capital. But there was pressure from 741 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:49,679 the United States on behalf of Israel to allow them 742 00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,920 to emigrate and leave the Soviet Union, and they were 743 00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:57,679 Domestically there were a movement by Jews, people like Natan 744 00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:02,400 Sharansky probably the most famous one, to engage in pressure 745 00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:06,480 that would be visible to the rest of the world 746 00:53:07,199 --> 00:53:09,880 on the government in Moscow to allow them to emigrate. 747 00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:13,400 And this emigration movement was actually copied by the Germans 748 00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:19,880 in nineteen seventy to nineteen seventy three to allow them 749 00:53:20,199 --> 00:53:23,280 also to emigrate to West Germany. It wasn't as successful, 750 00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:29,360 but it kind of did have a parallel imitation by 751 00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:35,800 ethnic Germans. So the opposition to Zionism domestically was they 752 00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:41,239 didn't want to lose the Jewish population because of disproportionate 753 00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:46,559 number of them were in the higher economic workings of 754 00:53:46,599 --> 00:53:51,960 the Soviet economy such as it was, and then internationally 755 00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:56,320 to get support from first and foremost of the Arab 756 00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:01,280 they but also the Third world in general. And also 757 00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:05,480 I think there was still this resentment of the way 758 00:54:05,559 --> 00:54:10,360 the Israelis had treated their original alliance in nineteen forty nine. 759 00:54:12,639 --> 00:54:15,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that one of the easy examples from 760 00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,239 history from the twentieth century you can see of the 761 00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:25,960 Zionist Russian fight is the fact that the Soviet Union 762 00:54:26,079 --> 00:54:30,840 backed the Kamis in Rhodesia, and when they did, the 763 00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:37,039 Zionists armed the White Rhodesia. You had this war going 764 00:54:37,079 --> 00:54:39,480 on just in Rhodesia where you can see that where 765 00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:40,639 it's actually clear. 766 00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:42,400 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I don't know. 767 00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:46,639 Speaker 3: I know that the Israel had close military relations with 768 00:54:47,079 --> 00:54:52,079 South Africa, accumulating in the joint nuclear test in the 769 00:54:52,079 --> 00:54:56,679 Indian Ocean. All right, but this is of course, as 770 00:54:56,679 --> 00:55:02,000 I said, by nineteen sixty seven, for domestic reasons, the 771 00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:06,239 movement that emigrate out by some three million Soviet Jews, 772 00:55:07,199 --> 00:55:13,880 and international politics, particularly dealing with the Middle East to 773 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:21,239 oppose Western interest, especially the United States, the Soviets had 774 00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:27,000 become strongly in the anti Israeli camp, although literally enough, 775 00:55:27,519 --> 00:55:32,239 unlike some of the more radical Arabs, the Soviet Union 776 00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:36,559 never advocated that Israel itself ceased to exist. They were 777 00:55:36,599 --> 00:55:40,119 always officially in the un that the West Makan Gods 778 00:55:40,159 --> 00:55:44,679 the Strip become a separate Palestinian state, but the nineteen 779 00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:48,440 forty eight borders continued to be the state of Israel. 780 00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:53,320 Speaker 1: All right, well, let's wrap up there. How can people 781 00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:57,639 support you? Right now? We want to find you a 782 00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:01,079 teaching position somewhere. But in the time, how can they 783 00:56:01,079 --> 00:56:01,559 support you? 784 00:56:02,119 --> 00:56:06,840 Speaker 3: Well, you can buy my book, which is distributed by 785 00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:11,280 Columbia University Press, and also write to your local library 786 00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:14,559 to ask them to acquire a copy of it. It's 787 00:56:14,559 --> 00:56:18,159 currently in one thousand and fifty eight libraries worldwide, but 788 00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:21,119 I haven't sold many copies the individuals. I don't know 789 00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:25,639 the exact number, but it's probably a tenth of what 790 00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:31,599 the library sales are. I have a Patreon which has 791 00:56:31,639 --> 00:56:42,440 a five dollars subscription, and I am always available for editing, research, writing, 792 00:56:42,559 --> 00:56:45,840 and even translation jobs. So I've gotten a couple of 793 00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:49,280 translation jobs recently that subsidize my. 794 00:56:51,039 --> 00:56:51,559 Speaker 2: Wages. 795 00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:58,239 Speaker 3: But yeah, that's if you wanted to support me another way, 796 00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:03,000 then I've listed You can contact me by DM on 797 00:57:03,079 --> 00:57:10,119 Twitter or my email, which is available on my academic 798 00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:14,119 Edu site. If you go to my CV it's written 799 00:57:14,199 --> 00:57:22,440 right there. But yeah, mainly if you have any work 800 00:57:22,519 --> 00:57:25,519 for me, I'm pretty good at the research and writing 801 00:57:25,559 --> 00:57:28,159 stuff by now, and my rates are very reasonable. 802 00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:31,599 Speaker 1: Remind ever, bed at the title of the book. 803 00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:36,599 Speaker 3: The Years a Great Silence, and then the subtitle The Deportation, 804 00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:40,920 Special Settlement and Mobilization the Labor Army Ethnic Germans and 805 00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:45,360 the USSR nineteen forty one to nineteen fifty five, published 806 00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:49,880 by ibidem verr Log out of Stuttgart, but for the 807 00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:54,320 US and Canada, Columbia University Press the distributor. So if 808 00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:56,920 you go to their website and look up either my 809 00:57:57,079 --> 00:57:59,800 name or the title of the book, you'll find the order. 810 00:58:01,559 --> 00:58:03,440 Speaker 1: I'll provide links to all of that in the in 811 00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:06,880 the show notes. Again, thank you Adam, thank you Peter,