WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.759 --> 00:00:08.759 Hey, Welcome back to another episode of the Ruby Rogues podcast. 2 00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:11.119 This week, on our panel, we have Valentino Stole. 3 00:00:11.880 --> 00:00:12.080 Hey. 4 00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:15.919 Now, I'm Charles Maxwood from Top End Devs. I just 5 00:00:15.919 --> 00:00:18.000 wanted to do a quick call out AIDEV boot camp 6 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:22.079 dot com. If you sign up within the next few weeks, 7 00:00:22.480 --> 00:00:24.679 I'm doing a forty five percent discount because I turned 8 00:00:24.679 --> 00:00:32.280 forty five on Saturday. And yeah, Bob's laughing. I'm going 9 00:00:32.359 --> 00:00:36.719 to take a little personal license here. So there's a 10 00:00:36.759 --> 00:00:40.719 political party I'm in county leadership, and we were talking 11 00:00:40.719 --> 00:00:44.000 about youth outreach and our party secretary is probably pretty 12 00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:47.439 close to Bob's age, and so we were chatting and 13 00:00:47.479 --> 00:00:49.280 we had like this twenty two to twenty three year 14 00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:51.840 old young woman who was talking to us about reaching 15 00:00:51.880 --> 00:00:56.159 out to younger people. And somebody goes, so, when we're 16 00:00:56.200 --> 00:00:58.520 talking about youth, who are we talking about? And he 17 00:00:58.600 --> 00:01:01.000 chimes in, and he goes and buddy under forty five. 18 00:01:01.079 --> 00:01:04.000 And so I felt young for like a week and 19 00:01:04.040 --> 00:01:08.359 a half and then I turned forty five. So anyway, Bill, 20 00:01:08.439 --> 00:01:13.519 now that's right, I'm old now. So anyway, we also 21 00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:16.560 have Uncle Bob Martin or Robert C. Martin as people 22 00:01:16.599 --> 00:01:18.920 know him. Bob, do you want to just say hello 23 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:20.680 and let people know what you're up to these days? 24 00:01:20.959 --> 00:01:25.519 Hi? Yeah, what am I up to in these days? Well, 25 00:01:27.239 --> 00:01:29.719 I'm in the midst of writing the second edition of 26 00:01:29.799 --> 00:01:32.799 Clean Code. My publisher said, you know, you should do 27 00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:35.640 a second edition, and I thought that's probably a good idea. 28 00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:40.239 It's been about sixteen seventeen years. Yeah, So first draft 29 00:01:40.319 --> 00:01:42.000 is off to the publisher. They're going to send it 30 00:01:42.040 --> 00:01:45.400 out for review, then we'll do another scan through it, 31 00:01:45.599 --> 00:01:48.799 and I imagine we'll see it out mid next year. 32 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:53.840 Good deal. You also released and this came up on 33 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:56.519 the JavaScript Jabber Show and I was excited for it, 34 00:01:56.840 --> 00:01:58.640 and so we're definitely going to have you back on 35 00:01:58.680 --> 00:02:01.079 this show and that show to talk about it. But 36 00:02:01.120 --> 00:02:04.599 you released another book about historical programmers. 37 00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:10.879 We Programmers is the title of it. The publisher taught 38 00:02:10.919 --> 00:02:14.520 maybe we the Programmers was a little too much like 39 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:19.479 the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution or something. So 40 00:02:19.719 --> 00:02:22.360 it's called We Programmers, which is a nice takeoff on 41 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:27.639 Asimov's I Robot. I suppose it is a history of 42 00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:35.039 software programmers, starting with Babbage and then walking through the 43 00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:39.080 early twentieth century, early to mid twentieth century. So we 44 00:02:39.159 --> 00:02:43.719 get people like Dykestra and Hilbert and von Neuman and 45 00:02:43.919 --> 00:02:50.560 Touring and Grace Hopper and John Bacchus and of course 46 00:02:50.680 --> 00:02:56.080 the C Trio Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson and Brian Cernihan. 47 00:02:57.039 --> 00:03:02.800 And I focus on the technology. This is a book 48 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:07.039 for programmers, So I talk about the machines themselves. You know, 49 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:09.960 how many bits they were, their cycle times, what did 50 00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:13.199 the instructions look like, what kind of problems were they solving, 51 00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:16.159 how much memory did they have, what kind of memory 52 00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:16.560 it was. 53 00:03:17.479 --> 00:03:22.120 And I also focus a lot on the the personalities 54 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:26.919 of the programmers, specifically their life struggles, because all of 55 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:27.960 these people. 56 00:03:27.599 --> 00:03:30.759 Were human, and they were really interesting humans. They all 57 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:36.159 had in the midst of this really deep technological struggle, 58 00:03:36.599 --> 00:03:40.240 they also had very human struggles. So it's a book 59 00:03:40.879 --> 00:03:46.919 about the human side of programmers, but with enough technology 60 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:52.159 to attract the attention of programmers. So that's that's how 61 00:03:52.199 --> 00:03:52.840 the book goes. 62 00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:56.159 Yeah, well it's it's interesting to me just from the 63 00:03:56.199 --> 00:04:01.159 standpoint of yeah, I mean, they they're essentially doing what 64 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:04.680 we do. The difference, I guess is that and this 65 00:04:04.759 --> 00:04:06.680 is the thing I like about good narratives, you know, 66 00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:09.800 a novel or whatever. Anyway is that you know, their 67 00:04:09.879 --> 00:04:12.800 challenges were different. They were inventing new ways of doing things. 68 00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:15.400 I guess the difference between some of the other books 69 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:18.240 that I read in this is that we're, you know, 70 00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:20.839 unless it's a historical novel like this or you know, 71 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:24.120 has to do with the past, right, we're still dealing 72 00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:26.360 with some of these things, or we benefit from the 73 00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:28.000 way that they invented to solve them. 74 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:33.439 So it's easy to draw a line if you look 75 00:04:33.439 --> 00:04:36.680 at the technologies, and if you really dig into the technologies, 76 00:04:37.319 --> 00:04:40.639 it's easy to draw a line from there to hear right, 77 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:44.279 And that line is this exponential curve which we called 78 00:04:44.360 --> 00:04:49.439 Moore's law back before Moore's law died. But it's very 79 00:04:49.480 --> 00:04:55.319 interesting to you look at the earlier mechanical machines, and 80 00:04:55.360 --> 00:04:59.040 then the electro mechanical machines, and then the vacuum tube machines, 81 00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:02.839 and then the transition machines, then the integrated circuit machines, 82 00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:05.959 and you can see this interesting curve. And the same 83 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:09.160 thing happens with memory. You know, originally memory was just 84 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:12.600 in gear positions, and then later on it was sound 85 00:05:12.680 --> 00:05:16.360 waves through tubes of mercury, and then it was charged 86 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:20.399 dots on CRT screens, and then then finally it was 87 00:05:20.519 --> 00:05:24.959 core memory, real core, magnetic core, and then finally you 88 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:29.319 know discs and solid state memory. So very very interesting 89 00:05:29.319 --> 00:05:33.000 and if you if you follow the deeper technology, you 90 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:36.000 can see that thread really easy, and you can see 91 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:41.199 the struggles of the hardware architects. They had no idea 92 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:44.160 what programmers would needs. So the early machines had no 93 00:05:44.199 --> 00:05:46.680 way to call a subroutine, no way to store a 94 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:51.399 return address, no way to uh anything on a stack. Right, 95 00:05:51.639 --> 00:05:55.720 the earliest machines had no jump instructions. They were just linear, 96 00:05:56.079 --> 00:05:59.199 linear steps and if you wanted to, if you want 97 00:05:59.240 --> 00:06:02.120 to have a loop, you would take the paper tape 98 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:04.959 which drove the machine, and you would back it up 99 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:07.399 and then let it run forward, and then you'd back 100 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:12.240 it up again. Oh no way, yeah, yeah yeah, And 101 00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:15.040 the operators would have to check the registers to see 102 00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:17.879 whether or not the loop exit condition had been achieved. 103 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:22.759 But you know, when you're only executting ten instructions a second, 104 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:25.720 you can do that, and you know a good program 105 00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:32.279 will run for eighty hours with constant operator intervention. 106 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:39.439 Well, I have to say, I'm living a charmed life. 107 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:43.879 Yeah. Here we are communicating over the ancestors of these machines, 108 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:47.680 you know, whipping bits around at a rather impressive rate. 109 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:53.199 Yeah, that's amazing. 110 00:06:53.399 --> 00:07:01.040 Yes it is. Oh yes, exponential curves. Yeah, we have 111 00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:02.120 an effect over time. 112 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:09.319 Yeah. Yeah, anyway, it's great stuff. I actually invited you 113 00:07:09.399 --> 00:07:12.920 to come on and talk about and it's this snippet. 114 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:23.079 It's like, what three minutes, but it was it was interesting. Oh, 115 00:07:23.120 --> 00:07:28.319 tarras on on X says, so that's where you rolling 116 00:07:28.360 --> 00:07:29.519 your own loop comes from. 117 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:33.720 Yes, they actually didn't do that. They would put the 118 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:36.160 paper tape into a loop. They'd scotch tape it together. 119 00:07:37.319 --> 00:07:37.800 Yeah. 120 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:40.319 Yeah, except one time they twisted it and then it 121 00:07:40.360 --> 00:07:42.160 was a mebias strip didn't execute. 122 00:07:42.199 --> 00:07:49.639 Well m m, all right, well let's dive in you. 123 00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:51.480 So this is this video. I don't know if you 124 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:53.480 posted it or if somebody clipped it from a talk 125 00:07:53.560 --> 00:07:54.800 you gave, but. 126 00:07:54.920 --> 00:07:56.680 It's essentially from a talk. Yeah. 127 00:07:56.879 --> 00:08:02.959 Yeah, so music in the images that show up, and 128 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:06.240 there's a guy that's massaging his temples. 129 00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:06.600 Right. 130 00:08:08.240 --> 00:08:15.639 Anyway, it's the problem with frameworks and what's interesting, you know, 131 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:19.480 because we had a similar Ish conversation on Ruby or 132 00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:22.399 on JavaScript Jabber and so it'll come out probably around 133 00:08:22.399 --> 00:08:24.720 the same time as this one. What's interesting to me though, 134 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:28.160 is that, like we you brought up Rails when we 135 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:31.800 asked you about it, and then we like totally sidebarred 136 00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:35.399 into react and view and you know, and all the 137 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:38.320 stuff there and trade offs with maybe he's Veldt or 138 00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:43.080 something like that, and the concerns that we're talking about. 139 00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:45.320 You know, the things our frameworks do for us in 140 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:50.000 Ruby are I guess some ways similar, but in a 141 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:53.919 lot of ways it's solving different concerns and different problems. 142 00:08:53.919 --> 00:08:56.480 And so I was kind of curious to see if 143 00:08:56.519 --> 00:08:59.120 we would have the same conversation here or if it 144 00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:03.960 be a bit different just from the standpoint. But uh, 145 00:09:04.039 --> 00:09:07.200 you know, you know, you know, just given the different technologies. 146 00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:10.399 So I keeping that in mind, I just kind of 147 00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:13.960 want to kind of let let you let it rip. 148 00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:17.159 You know what, what are the problems with frameworks, right? 149 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:18.200 We all love ours. 150 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:22.440 It was Rails that actually put me on this track, Okay, 151 00:09:22.440 --> 00:09:27.600 because I had been a tepid Rails programmer for a 152 00:09:27.639 --> 00:09:31.000 few years, you know, back when Rails was the big thing. 153 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:33.759 I don't know what year, that was probably six or 154 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:34.360 something like that. 155 00:09:34.440 --> 00:09:36.440 Yeah, about then that's when I got into it. 156 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:38.919 Yeah, okay, So and I was diddling around with it, 157 00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:41.759 and I wrote a couple of applications for this or that, 158 00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:45.600 and then my son showed me an application that he 159 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:48.440 had written, and I was just reading through it, and 160 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:52.679 I noticed that the just the directory structure of his 161 00:09:52.799 --> 00:09:56.879 application yelled at me. It just said, ryls rails. I'm 162 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:00.720 using Rails. And I thought, well, that's odd. Why is 163 00:10:00.840 --> 00:10:05.799 his directory structure so damned opinionated? And well, I mean 164 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:09.000 that's because Rails is an opinionated frame, right, And that 165 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:14.240 made me think, well, okay, should it be, or rather, 166 00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:21.200 should I allow Rails's opinionation to influence the structure of 167 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:25.840 my application? Or should I make sure that I keep 168 00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:30.559 the opinionated structure of Rails at arm's length while I 169 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:34.240 go ahead and use it. Can I keep all those 170 00:10:34.279 --> 00:10:38.840 opinions from leaking into my application and warping my application? 171 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:43.519 And that's really what got me onto the thread of frameworks. 172 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:46.480 And as I was thinking about that, I thought, well, okay, 173 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:50.120 David is the author of Rails. David Hademeier Hansen, and 174 00:10:50.840 --> 00:10:53.159 he did it for his company. He did it for 175 00:10:53.200 --> 00:10:56.679 thirty seven signals, right, he did all that for him. 176 00:10:57.000 --> 00:10:59.440 He didn't do it for me. And the more I 177 00:10:59.480 --> 00:11:03.360 thought about it, the more I thought, you know, the 178 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:09.600 more I commit to Rails, the more asymmetric this relationship becomes, 179 00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:12.840 because David is not making any commitment to me at all. 180 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:16.279 He's not promising to maintain Rails in the direction I 181 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:19.600 wanted to go. He's not promising to give me any 182 00:11:19.639 --> 00:11:22.679 features that I want. He's going to put in features 183 00:11:22.679 --> 00:11:25.759 that he wants, and if I like them, fine, If 184 00:11:25.759 --> 00:11:29.000 I don't, I can get lost. And he actually put 185 00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:31.679 you know, he went to a conference at one point, 186 00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:34.440 and he bunch of people at that conference, and up 187 00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:37.600 on the screen as he's standing there, right behind him 188 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:40.440 were two words. The first one started with f androm. 189 00:11:40.440 --> 00:11:43.799 The second one started with why. And so I thought, yeah, 190 00:11:44.200 --> 00:11:48.559 I probably don't want to make a big commitment to 191 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:52.480 an author who has no commitment to me. I don't 192 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:56.039 mind using the stuff as long as I can kind 193 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:58.720 of keep it at at some kind of a distance, 194 00:11:58.759 --> 00:12:02.679 build a little isolation layer, and prevent myself from being 195 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:08.519 polluted and trapped in the uh In the opinionated structure 196 00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:12.320 that he is properly creating for himself. 197 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:15.919 Yeah, it's it's interesting too. I'm just gonna kind of 198 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:18.919 pile onto this idea a bit like if you go 199 00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:25.480 watch the last keynotes that that David gave at when 200 00:12:25.480 --> 00:12:28.159 we say David is DHH folks for the people that 201 00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:29.720 aren't following along. 202 00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:32.480 A guy, I hold him very high regard, by. 203 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:35.919 The way, right, Yeah, I mean I've known David now 204 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:38.679 for several years, and so I call him David, and 205 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:43.759 I don't anyway, but he like, if you go watch 206 00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:47.279 the talks, right, he's talking about stuff that's terrific stuff, right, 207 00:12:47.639 --> 00:12:50.279 and it's like, oh I want that, Oh I love that. 208 00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:53.120 Oh I really But if you if you're paying attention 209 00:12:53.200 --> 00:12:55.919 to his talk, what he says is is, Hey, we're 210 00:12:55.960 --> 00:13:00.000 introducing this new thing and here's the problem. It's solved 211 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:04.000 for us at base Camp, right, I mean, all every 212 00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:07.559 single thing it's and we had this problem at base 213 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:09.759 camp and we solved it with this, and now you 214 00:13:09.799 --> 00:13:12.200 can use it too, right. And granted a lot of 215 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:14.240 those are things that I want solved to and so 216 00:13:14.440 --> 00:13:17.440 I'm perfectly happy to pick them up. But but yeah, 217 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:20.080 I mean the truth is is a lot of the 218 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:23.440 stuff that ends up in Rails is stuff that they need. 219 00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:26.000 And then yeah, they do get contributions from other companies 220 00:13:26.919 --> 00:13:29.960 that have other concerns, and they'll they'll accept those, right, 221 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:34.000 but you know, then it's solving some other person's problem 222 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:36.879 that's can contributing to the framework. But the vast majority 223 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:39.919 of the stuff that he goes up and announces, he 224 00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:44.159 basically says it, this solved this problem for us at 225 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:44.679 base Camp. 226 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:51.360 Yeah, and that's great. It's just maybe I can use 227 00:13:51.399 --> 00:13:54.200 that to solve my problem, and maybe there's a way 228 00:13:54.279 --> 00:13:56.840 that I can use it to solve my problem without 229 00:13:56.919 --> 00:14:01.480 making a gigantic commitment to it, without heerding from some 230 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:05.480 base class that they wrote, or without you know, forcing 231 00:14:05.559 --> 00:14:09.879 my application to adopt the structure that they want. 232 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:14.159 Yeah, Rails Magic, what do you think of Valentino. 233 00:14:17.159 --> 00:14:22.759 It's so it's hard because the structure of the application, 234 00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:28.519 if you're a contractor, as an example, a consultant, having 235 00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:31.279 that be the same for all of the applications that 236 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:34.679 you have to look at is such a huge benefit, right, 237 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:38.000 And having a lot of the things normalized, maybe not 238 00:14:38.120 --> 00:14:43.279 everything that reels normalized, but like the normality across like 239 00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:47.200 just like if you're looking at hundreds of applications right 240 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:51.120 throughout a year, like you just save incredible amount of 241 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:55.360 time and context, right, Like you don't have to rethink. Okay, well, 242 00:14:55.559 --> 00:14:59.039 uncle Bob today decided to use a different you know 243 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:02.679 structure because you know maybe that it was a more 244 00:15:02.679 --> 00:15:06.200 appropriate design decision, right, But it's different than maybe some 245 00:15:06.279 --> 00:15:08.440 of the other ones that you know you more typically 246 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:11.679 will take on. And so you have to like then 247 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:14.840 have to reframe your thinking and gain regain context. And 248 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:18.440 there is kind of developer loss across that. Uh even, 249 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:21.360 but that's the trade off, right, Like you make that 250 00:15:21.559 --> 00:15:26.159 choice upfront, and it's your choice, right, So, but I 251 00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:30.120 mean thinking about bigger teams, like it becomes like really 252 00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:33.240 hard to like start like where do where do you 253 00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:37.399 see like in a larger team structure, like the value 254 00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:43.039 in like creating like the barrier to the framework, right, 255 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:46.159 Like where where do you start to see Okay, like, uh, 256 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:49.799 we have started to design our pieces of the application 257 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:52.559 separate from the framework, Like when does that start to 258 00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:53.039 take off? 259 00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:53.240 Right? 260 00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:55.279 And where does where does that like really start to 261 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:57.720 fit in the most obvious Well. 262 00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:00.799 I think that the first question that it would face 263 00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:06.320 is you know which framework should I use? Should I 264 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:09.679 should I start with rails because a lot of people do, right, 265 00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:13.440 they just say, okay, we're just doing rails or whatever framework. 266 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:15.440 It doesn't matter. I don't want to pick on rails 267 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:20.519 too much here, Just you know, whatever the framework dujuur is. 268 00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:22.919 They'll say, Okay, let's try that because it's beautiful and 269 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:25.519 it's gorgeous and we can go really fast. And is 270 00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:29.919 that the right decision to make up front? Or should 271 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:32.720 you be thinking about? All right, we've got this application, 272 00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:35.639 and this application has a bunch of requirements, and we're 273 00:16:35.639 --> 00:16:37.559 going to need this kind of data storage, and we're 274 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:42.000 gonna need this kind of computational structure, and what framework 275 00:16:42.039 --> 00:16:45.600 out there would help us with this? And is there 276 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:47.840 a framework out there that would help us with this? 277 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:52.320 Or maybe what we should do is write a little 278 00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:54.960 bit of it, get get a little bit of it going, 279 00:16:55.559 --> 00:16:58.200 and then see if there's a framework that fits into this. 280 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:01.799 It would also be nice if the framework would be 281 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:14.119 less demanding of commitment, like I'd like to use it 282 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:16.200 off on the side, I'd like call it a little 283 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:17.680 bit and I'd like it to be more of a 284 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:22.640 library than you know, forcing forcing me to hand execution 285 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:25.200 control over to it, and then it deigns to call 286 00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:28.160 me back when it needs to. I might want to 287 00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:32.000 maintain control of execution. I might, you know, or I 288 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:34.119 might I might let it go. But I'd like to 289 00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:38.680 be able to make those decisions with enough information that 290 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:40.839 I can do so in an informed way. 291 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:45.039 So yeah, and this is this is kind of where 292 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:49.920 you begin to lose me a little bit because I 293 00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:52.359 just I don't know, I don't know how you do this. 294 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:54.960 I mean, do you pick up something simple like Sinatra 295 00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:59.519 or Rhoda or or or do you just start building 296 00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:01.960 the other pieces of your you know, maybe you build 297 00:18:02.039 --> 00:18:07.039 business logic, But I don't know, like, what's the approach 298 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:11.839 here then to putting it off? Because yeah, rails gives me, 299 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:15.279 like Valentino said, it kind of gives me a bookshelf 300 00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:18.440 and tells me where to put my stuff. Yeah, and 301 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:21.640 it solves a bunch of stuff out of the gate. 302 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:26.759 And so yeah, but at the same time, I really, 303 00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:31.480 you know, it sounds right, you know, especially you know, 304 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:34.640 I kind of grew up programming under agile development stuff, right, 305 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:37.480 And you'll never know as little now or as little 306 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:39.920 as you do now. Kind of thing, And so if 307 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:42.680 I can put it off and then realize, oh, you know, 308 00:18:42.759 --> 00:18:47.200 maybe Hanami or something else offers, you know, a different 309 00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:49.119 way to think about this that's more in line with 310 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:52.240 what I want. But how do you do that? How 311 00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:55.960 do you start putting the pieces together without the framework? Then? 312 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:00.920 Well, so frameworks solve a particular problem. They help you 313 00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:03.079 get things on the screen, they help they help you 314 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:06.440 get things onto a disk, into a database of some kind, 315 00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:09.160 they help you talk through sockets. There's a whole bunch 316 00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:12.319 of things that frameworks allow you to do. But then 317 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:15.920 you've got your application, and your application has other things 318 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:18.880 that it needs to do. There's a reason that your 319 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:23.079 application exists. There are business rules that don't have anything 320 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:25.200 to do with the framework. They don't have anything to 321 00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:27.440 do with what's on the screen or what's in the database. 322 00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:31.039 None of that technology matters to the reason that the 323 00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:38.160 application exists. So you can create the core of an application. 324 00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:40.920 You can start with some business rules and you can 325 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:43.680 just put those together. It's not hard to do. There's 326 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:46.440 some calculations you've got to do, there's some perhaps some 327 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:49.400 data storage you have to do, and don't you don't 328 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:54.160 need to make a commitment to the screen or the database. 329 00:19:54.200 --> 00:19:57.799 You can build a little isolation layer that allows you 330 00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:02.039 to put things on a database, but without knowing what database. 331 00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:05.200 It is just a bunch of interfaces that you implement later. 332 00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:08.240 And there's some way to get things on the screen. 333 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:10.039 You don't know exactly how you're going to get it 334 00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:12.119 on the screen, but you can at least arrange the 335 00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:15.279 data in a way that you know would eventually get 336 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:18.440 on the screen. And you can do all of that 337 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:22.319 without the framework without You can do it without a database. 338 00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:25.279 You can do it without any of the normal kinds 339 00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:28.599 of trappings that you would expect in an application. And 340 00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:31.519 then when you've got enough of it done, and it 341 00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:34.000 doesn't have to be the whole thing, obviously, but when 342 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:35.559 you've got enough of it done, you look at it 343 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:38.519 and think, Okay, what framework out there is really going 344 00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:41.480 to help me with this? I really need to get 345 00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:44.000 this on a web page. Maybe you haven't even thought 346 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:46.359 about a web page yet, right, I really need to 347 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:48.720 get this on a web page, and Rails is great 348 00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:51.240 at doing that. Maybe I should use Rails. But if 349 00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:54.839 I do use Rails, it would be really nice if 350 00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:59.839 I didn't have to pull all of that rails ecode 351 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:03.640 to my application. Maybe I can put it all behind 352 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:07.240 my isolation layer, and then I can call rails happily 353 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:10.799 through my isolation layer and my application is not necessarily 354 00:21:10.839 --> 00:21:13.839 affected by rails. This is the way I like to 355 00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:16.400 start all applications. I like to start with the business 356 00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:21.039 rules first and then start feeling outwards and see how 357 00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:24.400 much how much of a framework I need. And in 358 00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:27.960 the last one, I told the story of Fitness, And 359 00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:30.759 in Fitness, you know, that was a web application. It's 360 00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:33.680 a wiki, and it's got a database, or at least 361 00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:36.319 we thought it would have a database. And we as 362 00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:38.480 we planned the whole thing out, we thought, well, we're 363 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:40.599 going to need a web server, and there's a couple 364 00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:43.920 of open source web servers you could get. And didn't 365 00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:46.039 have a big framework in those days, but you know, 366 00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:49.400 the CANU project had a bunch of I think Apache 367 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:51.799 had some web servers back in two thousand when we 368 00:21:51.839 --> 00:21:54.519 started this, and we thought, you know, maybe we'll get 369 00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:58.680 a database, and we had we thought we'd get my sequel, 370 00:21:58.720 --> 00:22:02.079 because you know, why wouldn't you, And then and then 371 00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:04.640 we just started building, but without any of that stuff. 372 00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:07.279 We just started building just and and what do you 373 00:22:07.319 --> 00:22:08.839 do with the wiki? The first thing you do is 374 00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:13.559 translate wiki text into HTML. Well, okay, that's pretty simple. 375 00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:16.119 Don't need you don't even need a web page for that. 376 00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:18.160 If you don't need a web server for that, all 377 00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:21.000 you need to do is look at the HTML. Uh. 378 00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:22.359 And if you want to get it up on a 379 00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:25.279 web page, it's awfully simple to get a browser and 380 00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:28.279 have it, you know, pull up from HTML from a 381 00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:32.279 flat file or something. So that was very simple. And 382 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:34.480 at some point we thought, well, we've got to get 383 00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:36.759 it up. We got to talk to a browser, We've 384 00:22:36.759 --> 00:22:38.920 got to be able to talk to a browser. Something's 385 00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:43.440 got to serve these web pages that we're building. And 386 00:22:43.480 --> 00:22:46.400 we thought, well, let's let's go look at let's go 387 00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:49.440 look at the Apache thing. And then and then we thought, well, 388 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:54.319 how hard is it to build a web server. Well, 389 00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:56.319 it turns out that's about three hundred lines of code. 390 00:22:56.319 --> 00:23:00.000 It's not very hard to serve a web page. Just really, 391 00:23:00.039 --> 00:23:02.720 all you're doing is opening up a socket and throwing 392 00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:05.200 stuff out of the socket. And we thought, well, why 393 00:23:05.240 --> 00:23:07.240 don't we just do that for the time being. You know, 394 00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:09.960 maybe we'll get Apache in there later, but for the 395 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:11.960 time being We've got three hundred lines of code and 396 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:14.519 it puts up web babes. It's just fine. And we 397 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:18.839 kept on working on translating the markup. Eventually we needed 398 00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:21.119 a database, and we thought, well, we could get my 399 00:23:21.319 --> 00:23:25.200 sequel going, but be awfully simple to just store all 400 00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:28.079 these pages in a hash table, you know, and that 401 00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:30.759