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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the nonprofits. For our second segment this week,

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<v Speaker 1>we examined some changing priorities in the United States. This

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<v Speaker 1>article argues that the United States, once a global leader

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<v Speaker 1>in science and innovation, is undergoing a politically driven dismantling

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<v Speaker 1>of its research infrastructure. Federal support for scientific research has

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<v Speaker 1>been slashed, particularly in areas related to climate change, public health, DEI,

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<v Speaker 1>and LGBTQ plus issues. Thousands of scientists have been fired,

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<v Speaker 1>research grants canceled, and leadership roles handed to individuals lacking

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<v Speaker 1>scientific credibility. To put it nicely, agencies like the EPA

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<v Speaker 1>and ih ANDAA have been gutted, and vital programs such

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<v Speaker 1>as climate assessments have been silenced. The US government has

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<v Speaker 1>also cut ties with the international research partners and targeted

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<v Speaker 1>foreign born researchers with suspicion. These moves have triggered a

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<v Speaker 1>brain drain, with other nations recruiting displaced US scientists. The

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<v Speaker 1>article warns that this anti science, anti intellectual cleansing threatens

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<v Speaker 1>public health, national security, economic growth, and America's longstanding global

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<v Speaker 1>reputation for innovation. Without course correction, the damage may be

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<v Speaker 1>long lasting and profound, and this story is from Z

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<v Speaker 1>Network by Mel Girtov on July twenty first, twenty twenty five. So, Cynthia,

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<v Speaker 1>I want to go to you first here. I've always

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<v Speaker 1>thought Cynthia, Cynthia. I've always thought Cynthia was a worthy effort.

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<v Speaker 1>I always thought science was a worthy effort. And I'm

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<v Speaker 1>a firm believer in the adage that knowledge is power.

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<v Speaker 1>So what's happening here with the scientific future of America?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, Cynthia is a worthy effort, and so a scientist.

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<v Speaker 3>I agree, I agree.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, But Scott, if I can to just say, like,

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<v Speaker 2>what really I found so distressing about this article is

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<v Speaker 2>that it reveals not just what the war on science

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<v Speaker 2>is here, but a deeper war on truth, a deeper

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<v Speaker 2>war on we've and the very infrastructure that supports public

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<v Speaker 2>knowledge and well being. We are seeing it on the

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<v Speaker 2>universities levels, Like we just covered in our first episode

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<v Speaker 2>about a research grant being rejected by a university to

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<v Speaker 2>study the effects of LGBTQ plus people on religious campuses.

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<v Speaker 2>That was a scientific study and a lot of us

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<v Speaker 2>would have been curious about what the research would reveal,

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<v Speaker 2>but it was rejected, And we're actually seeing this on

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<v Speaker 2>a larger scale nationwide that scientists who happened to attach

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<v Speaker 2>themselves to universities, to colleges, and even in other private

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<v Speaker 2>and public sectors are basically being silenced. They're funding, our

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<v Speaker 2>is being cut and a lot of distressing things are

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<v Speaker 2>happening within the community to the point where they say,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm leaving here and I'm going to a different place.

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<v Speaker 2>Is going to accept me? And this is a clear

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<v Speaker 2>sustained political effort to dismantle the systems that allow facts

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<v Speaker 2>to challenge power. We are witnessing what amounts to a

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<v Speaker 2>slow motion collapse of Americans scientific leadership. Remember when that

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<v Speaker 2>was a thing where innovation, science, garnering knowledge, passing it

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<v Speaker 2>on to the next generation in this here United States

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<v Speaker 2>was an actual thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, boy, it seems just like yesterday.

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<v Speaker 2>It was yesterday, Scott, but not today. And that collapse

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<v Speaker 2>isn't due to the lack of talent or resources. It

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<v Speaker 2>is due to a political interference that punishes curiosity. It

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<v Speaker 2>defunds basic research and silences the scientific voices for ideological reasons.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, when a regime begins to decide what

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<v Speaker 2>scientists are allowed to study based not on evidence, but

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<v Speaker 2>on political narratives. We have crossed into dangerous territory. This

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<v Speaker 2>is authoritarianism. Yes, I can say that word creeping in

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<v Speaker 2>through the back door, and it's dressed up as policy.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know if i'd say creeping, I say it's

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<v Speaker 1>busting through the back door pretty loudly.

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<v Speaker 2>You know it's it's.

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<v Speaker 3>I think.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, let me really retract my last statement. It

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<v Speaker 2>is busting through the front door, just like fly Guy

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<v Speaker 2>from I'm going to get you Sucker with the fish

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<v Speaker 2>Bowl Platforms, Darling.

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<v Speaker 3>Ok sorry, sorry, please continue. You just brought an image.

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<v Speaker 3>Do we lose, Cynthia?

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<v Speaker 2>No?

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<v Speaker 3>Still, I thought you what?

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<v Speaker 2>No?

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<v Speaker 3>No, no, I did it.

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<v Speaker 2>I made my point. Fly Guy bustened.

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<v Speaker 4>Through the door.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, all right.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey Fishbowl platforms.

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<v Speaker 1>I liked your I liked your phrase you use their

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<v Speaker 1>slow motion collapse.

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<v Speaker 3>I like, I like that. Steven, what are your thoughts

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<v Speaker 3>on there?

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<v Speaker 1>She's Cynthia's kind of seeing this as really shortsighted policy change, right,

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<v Speaker 1>So so what's your take on this?

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 4>Like I've it's just continually, continually, continually feels like every

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<v Speaker 4>week we are talking about how the powers that are

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<v Speaker 4>be are investing in stupefying and removing access to UH information,

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<v Speaker 4>to education, to understanding. This is something that we are

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<v Speaker 4>seeing on a continual basis, and that means that means

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<v Speaker 4>like practically speaking, we're going to be seeing a slower

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<v Speaker 4>response to public crisises, whether it's the next pandemic. I

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<v Speaker 4>have a friend who works in Canadian health here and

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<v Speaker 4>she's I think specifically with the cd or yeah, ties

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<v Speaker 4>to the CDC, And I said, so, what's the deal

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<v Speaker 4>with the next pandemic coming is? She's like, no, I don't.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't want to talk about it because they know

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<v Speaker 4>that it's coming and they know that it's going to

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<v Speaker 4>be worse, and because especially because we're politicizing health, so

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<v Speaker 4>that that's only going to get worse. Or maybe weather,

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<v Speaker 4>I don't know, have we seen any out any of

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<v Speaker 4>the effects of like not actually valuing data when it

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<v Speaker 4>comes to weather. We're going to be seeing the public

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<v Speaker 4>We're going to be seeing the privatization of public data.

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<v Speaker 4>If the government isn't going to be investing in collecting

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<v Speaker 4>and aggregating this data, then other people will and they're

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<v Speaker 4>going to do it, just like everything in capitalism for profit.

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<v Speaker 4>And that means that we can't trust the results of

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<v Speaker 4>this data because it's going to be skewed in order

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<v Speaker 4>to you know better the bottom line, and ultimately it's

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<v Speaker 4>going to result in a weakened democracy because if people

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<v Speaker 4>don't have access to actual data, to actually information, they're

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<v Speaker 4>going to be easier to manipulate, They're going to be

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<v Speaker 4>easier to control. And that means that people who have

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<v Speaker 4>the power will do whatever they can to hold on

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<v Speaker 4>to that power.

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<v Speaker 3>For sure, for sure, I totally agree.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, the privatization of this kind of of really

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<v Speaker 1>a public service. Really, I mean, it's our government supposedly

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<v Speaker 1>supposing to work for us in our favor, and not

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<v Speaker 1>being doled out to a private corporation that is going

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<v Speaker 1>to have conflicting our conflicts of interest and different priorities

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<v Speaker 1>other than furthering the lives of Americans, Cynthia.

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<v Speaker 3>So I think we all agree.

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<v Speaker 1>In fact, I think any reasonable person would agree that

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<v Speaker 1>this change in direction is at best foolish and even

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<v Speaker 1>downright evil at worst. Besides the loss of scientific leadership

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<v Speaker 1>in the world, what are going to be some of

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<v Speaker 1>the behind the scenes damage that's being done here, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>Before I.

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<v Speaker 2>Get into my whole spiel, I want to talk a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit about a question that is often posed to

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<v Speaker 2>people who happen to be a non believer. We all

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<v Speaker 2>heard it on college shows. We have a few here

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<v Speaker 2>at the ACA, actually truth Wanted On Fridays at seven pm.

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<v Speaker 2>We have a talk Heathen that premieres every Sunday.

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<v Speaker 3>At one day one yep and Central time.

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<v Speaker 2>And then we have the Atheist Experience that happens at

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<v Speaker 2>four thirty pm Central Time on Sundays. And this question

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<v Speaker 2>has always come up. And you're ready for the question,

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<v Speaker 2>because I know that all of you guys are going

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<v Speaker 2>to roll your eyes because you heard it like ten

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<v Speaker 2>trillion times. If you're an atheist, where do you get

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<v Speaker 2>your morals from?

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<v Speaker 4>What?

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<v Speaker 1>No, I've never heard that question. I've never that's never

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<v Speaker 1>crossed now.

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<v Speaker 3>Of course, you know we hear it every all the time,

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<v Speaker 3>all the time.

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<v Speaker 2>And I know Scott that you've heard it a few

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<v Speaker 2>times because you are.

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<v Speaker 1>On talk even on occasion, Yes, on occasion, Yeah, I

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<v Speaker 1>am known to talk Heathen when needed, Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Indeed, And I'm pretty sure that that and even if

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<v Speaker 2>it's has not come up on a call and like

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<v Speaker 2>on a recall, but I'm pretty sure that in dialogue

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<v Speaker 2>or you know, in bigger audiences that question has come up.

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<v Speaker 1>So how does that morality question then affect how does

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<v Speaker 1>the where's the link here to what we're talking about?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, we should have policies that actually reduce suffering, because

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<v Speaker 2>the way that we would answer the question is that

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<v Speaker 2>we base our morality on well being, and the way

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<v Speaker 2>that we think about well being is to reduce the

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<v Speaker 2>suffering that could happen to human beings and also the

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<v Speaker 2>communities of other animals that we actually share this earth with. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>and I know that my mother would go crazy because

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<v Speaker 2>I ended not one, but two sentences in this whole

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<v Speaker 2>dialogue trialogue, because it's three of us.

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<v Speaker 3>A trialogue, Right, do it?

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<v Speaker 5>Do it?

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<v Speaker 2>I give you permission with a proposition regardless, I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>back to being serious, which I cannot be. But what

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<v Speaker 2>I'm saying is serious that simply cannot happen if we're

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<v Speaker 2>choking off scientific inquiry. I'm especially concerned about the way

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<v Speaker 2>this trend fosters mistrust. We have seen it so many times,

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<v Speaker 2>especially at the height of the pandemic, when an mRNA

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<v Speaker 2>vaccine was developed in order to quell the first variant

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<v Speaker 2>of COVID nineteen that we actually was faced and then

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<v Speaker 2>we would change or we would re up that vaccination,

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<v Speaker 2>depending on what the behaviors of that variant is doing

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<v Speaker 2>at that time. But because there was so much mistrust

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<v Speaker 2>and misinformation that was pumped into the public discourse about vaccines.

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<v Speaker 2>And let's be clear, gentlemen, that this particular discourse is

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<v Speaker 2>not new, because we've been having conversations concerning anti vaccination

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<v Speaker 2>for a while now, before there was even the pandemic

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<v Speaker 2>that we experience in twenty nineteen twenty twenty. So we

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<v Speaker 2>are in this particular place that science is now considered

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<v Speaker 2>a four letter word because even though the science is

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<v Speaker 2>not a four letter word, because oh, all the different

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<v Speaker 2>institutions that are pushing medical science, medical research, or even

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<v Speaker 2>research in of itself when it comes to human beings

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<v Speaker 2>cannot be trusted because of all the misinformation that was

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<v Speaker 2>said about the vaccines. It's going to cause people to die.

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<v Speaker 2>It's going to call this that in third right, And

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<v Speaker 2>we find when we actually did a cursory research, because

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<v Speaker 2>all the information concerning the vaccinations that were being given

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<v Speaker 2>to the public were we're not behind a paywall, you

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<v Speaker 2>can actually pull them up and read the effects and

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<v Speaker 2>read the studies. Still I can't trust it because because reasons,

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<v Speaker 2>and that mistrust becomes a feedback group, right, and politicians

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<v Speaker 2>end up listening to that feedback loop, and then they

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<v Speaker 2>defund science and it's blame not for and because it's

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<v Speaker 2>not being funded now or you know, we're experiencing blame drain.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry, brain drain. Then we're going to end up

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<v Speaker 2>having a loss of capacity and the public's out and

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<v Speaker 2>the public's outcomes are going to be worsen, and then

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<v Speaker 2>science is going to be blamed not for solving problems,

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<v Speaker 2>it's actually was never allowed to study the problem in

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<v Speaker 2>the first place.

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<v Speaker 3>For sure.

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<v Speaker 1>For sure, I like how you described it disconnecting, disconnecting

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<v Speaker 1>from the science, or disconnecting from reality. It's it's like

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<v Speaker 1>trying to operate your computer after you yanked out.

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<v Speaker 3>The cord from the monitor.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, It's you're disconnecting yourself from the actual real world

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<v Speaker 1>that we live in. And it's troubling and and it's terrifying,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's hilarious, and it's all these different things. Stephen,

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<v Speaker 1>what can we do, I mean, as science supporters, what

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<v Speaker 1>can we do as people that believe in science that

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<v Speaker 1>believe in taking steps in the real world using real

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<v Speaker 1>consequences and real actions. What are we left to do

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<v Speaker 1>with here?

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<v Speaker 4>Like I think we're in this situation because we got

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<v Speaker 4>so comforted, just like with democracy, just like oh yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>I don't need to vote because you know, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>it's fine, everything is fine, everything is fine. Oh my

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<v Speaker 4>fucking god, we're all on fire. Same with science, Like

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<v Speaker 4>if we just trust that someone else is going to

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<v Speaker 4>take care of it, like the scientists they can handle themselves,

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<v Speaker 4>then we're going to lose them as well, right So

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<v Speaker 4>the way, so yeah, it's up to us to get

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<v Speaker 4>involved in to be supporting these things that we really

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<v Speaker 4>think are important and that and like for all, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>we've got more access to supporting more people than ever before.

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<v Speaker 5>Right.

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<v Speaker 4>So maybe we're going online and we're using social media

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<v Speaker 4>to like follow and disseminate science from sources that are

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<v Speaker 4>outside of government control. Right Like maybe we're looking up

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<v Speaker 4>The Conversation or Catherine heho of repping out for Canada there,

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<v Speaker 4>but just like being able to just like our favorite

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<v Speaker 4>YouTube or you know, Instagram influencers, maybe we're actually like

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<v Speaker 4>putting our support behind people who are trying to make

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<v Speaker 4>a difference for not only our world, but for the

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<v Speaker 4>generations to follow us. Right, maybe we're actually getting involved

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<v Speaker 4>in citizens science, right, Like, maybe we're taking upon ourselves

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<v Speaker 4>to say, you know what, we want to see this

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<v Speaker 4>data collected, so we are going to do what we can. Right,

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<v Speaker 4>And there's so many different organizations that rely on citizens

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<v Speaker 4>to be involved without government funding.

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<v Speaker 5>Right.

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<v Speaker 4>If you go to a place like eBird dot org,

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<v Speaker 4>that's a way that you can be gathering information about

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<v Speaker 4>the local bird population, taking readings of what birds are

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<v Speaker 4>in my neighborhood, and then that information can be globally

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<v Speaker 4>or i naturalist dot org another organization about just recording

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<v Speaker 4>what's happening in your exact area, or pistarter dot org

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<v Speaker 4>another website that is a directory of different citizens science

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<v Speaker 4>organizations that could use support from people who actually give

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<v Speaker 4>a fuck.

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<v Speaker 1>Hmm, yeah, maybe we can maybe if we know the

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<v Speaker 1>producer show, we can we can try to get some

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<v Speaker 1>of those web those web addresses into the notes for

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<v Speaker 1>the for the show. But yeah, but oh well, what

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<v Speaker 1>do you know, Well, what do you know? But no, seriously, Steve,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think you're you're spot on there. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>we basically if we want this. If we want to

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<v Speaker 1>be a knowledgeable nation, if we want to be a

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<v Speaker 1>knowledgeable society, we have to take it upon ourselves to

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<v Speaker 1>make make sure that we know things, and make sure

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<v Speaker 1>that we can do things, and make sure that we

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<v Speaker 1>participate in science. Science is not just a dusty book

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<v Speaker 1>on a shelf. Science is getting out there and viewing

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<v Speaker 1>the world and thinking straight and making good conclusions there.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think we're not alone here. I want to

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<v Speaker 1>share you some information that I found. You know, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sorry the math teacher. I got to pull some stats

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<v Speaker 1>into into the program here. So, according to a twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty three p Research study, researchers found that seventy eight

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<v Speaker 1>percent of Americans say that scientific research is a worthwhile

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<v Speaker 1>investment for the nation, with ninety percent of Democrats and

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<v Speaker 1>sixty eight percent of Republicans agreeing with that statement.

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<v Speaker 3>I think both of those.

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<v Speaker 1>Numbers are really really low, especially that Republican number that

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<v Speaker 1>should be up around one hundred percent. I mean, if

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<v Speaker 1>you can't understand the value of scientific research, then you

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<v Speaker 1>know that I don't know what I can do for you.

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<v Speaker 1>But that's so, seventy eight percent of Americans think that

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<v Speaker 1>it's a worthwhile investment. And I like the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>they use the word investment there, because this is an

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<v Speaker 1>investment that we're doing. We're investing our time and our

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<v Speaker 1>energy and our priorities now for a better future for us,

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<v Speaker 1>for our children and our children's children, et cetera, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 1>The same study found that a full ninety percent of

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<v Speaker 1>Americans said that it was either somewhat important thirty seven

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<v Speaker 1>percent or very important fifty three percent for the US

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<v Speaker 1>to be a world leader in scientific achievements with the Britain.

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<v Speaker 1>And in this case, the breakdown by party affiliation was

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<v Speaker 1>about the same. So ninety percent of Americans think it's

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<v Speaker 1>either somewhat important or very important not only for us

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<v Speaker 1>to have scientific advancement, but for the US to be

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<v Speaker 1>a world leader. And so I'm going to ask this

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<v Speaker 1>of Cynthia. First, are the wishes of the American people

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<v Speaker 1>being ignored?

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<v Speaker 5>Here?

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<v Speaker 3>Is this a betrayal of the trust that we have

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<v Speaker 3>in our government?

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<v Speaker 5>Here?

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<v Speaker 1>Are we being hoodwinked, or are we being left behind?

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<v Speaker 1>Or what's what's happening here?

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<v Speaker 2>Unfortunately, we are being hoodweek, batboozled, run a book let,

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<v Speaker 2>us tray plymouth rock, We didn't land on Plymouth rock.

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<v Speaker 2>Plymouth Rock landed on us. When it comes to this

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<v Speaker 2>conversation about scientific research, Unfortunately, the seats have been sown

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<v Speaker 2>to put distrust and misinformation into the conversation when we're

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<v Speaker 2>talking about trusting science. And then we even have like

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<v Speaker 2>people who happen to be big influencers on the interwebs

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<v Speaker 2>that actually will call scientists or science and of itself

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<v Speaker 2>a religion and it's not. Science is based on creating hypotheses,

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<v Speaker 2>testing a hypothesis, to seeing if it's the closest thing

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<v Speaker 2>to fact that we know. And on top of that,

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<v Speaker 2>when you test the hypothesis and it comes out to

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<v Speaker 2>actually be the closest thing to what is fact is

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<v Speaker 2>others are invited to test that outcome to see if

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<v Speaker 2>what you are saying is the actual fact or if

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<v Speaker 2>you are just coming up with the booshit.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, okay, no mining words here, no mining words.

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<v Speaker 2>Indeed. So I think it's important and I understand that

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<v Speaker 2>the society that we're living in right now is that

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<v Speaker 2>a lie can run around the world a hundred times

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<v Speaker 2>before the truth can put on its pants in the morning.

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<v Speaker 2>But the very thing that has to be done is

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<v Speaker 2>that those who are committed and care about the truth

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<v Speaker 2>need to continue to say it, you know, they need

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<v Speaker 2>to continue to actually be committed to putting out data

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<v Speaker 2>that has been peer reviewed, that has been tested, that

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<v Speaker 2>has gone through the methodology, so that we are not

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<v Speaker 2>going to continue to think the Son is a god.

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<v Speaker 2>We're not going to continue to think that if we

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<v Speaker 2>do a dance, sing a song, that rain is going

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<v Speaker 2>to come. It was through some scientific research that we

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<v Speaker 2>actually debunked a lot of superstitions that said that weather

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<v Speaker 2>patterns and other phenomenon that we saw were supernatural. No,

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<v Speaker 2>these are natural things, and we have the data to

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<v Speaker 2>back it up. That needs to be a thing that continues.

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<v Speaker 2>And the only way that that could continue is if

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<v Speaker 2>people like you, like me, like that's out there that's

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<v Speaker 2>viewing us is committed to making sure that that continues

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<v Speaker 2>to have.

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<v Speaker 1>I agree, I agree completely, but we're we're running short

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<v Speaker 1>on time here. I want to make sure I get

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<v Speaker 1>one more question into Steven. So I said that ninety

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<v Speaker 1>percent of Americans think that it's important for the US

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<v Speaker 1>to be a leader in the science development in this world.

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<v Speaker 3>Do you think we've.

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<v Speaker 1>Kind of, you know, blown our chance there is it

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<v Speaker 1>time for us to pass the keys and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>let somebody else be the be the world leader in

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<v Speaker 1>science there? Or or do we need to kind of

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<v Speaker 1>rally the troops and kind of take up that that

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<v Speaker 1>flag again, or you know, should we just pass it on?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, what's the what's what's this American exceptionalism thing that

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<v Speaker 4>I hear about?

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<v Speaker 3>Like, yeah, yeah, we do have that, y'all.

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<v Speaker 1>Like, if you want to be fired, if you very

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<v Speaker 1>that's why I'm very happy to give this question to

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<v Speaker 1>the non American on the panel here today. So should

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<v Speaker 1>America step aside and get out of the science business?

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<v Speaker 4>Like, if y'all want to be driving the car, sure,

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<v Speaker 4>but if you're if the engine is on fire, you've

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<v Speaker 4>got issues, So you know, deal with your fucking issues

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<v Speaker 4>before you try it behind the driver's seat, right, like

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<v Speaker 4>the other countries.

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<v Speaker 5>Are, We're We're okay, we are okay, We will be

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<v Speaker 5>okay without you for a little while. You've got pull over,

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<v Speaker 5>figure out what's going on, and then when you're ready

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<v Speaker 5>to get back on the road, come on in. We

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<v Speaker 5>want you to be here.

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<v Speaker 4>But for now, just chill the fuck out.

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<v Speaker 3>I will turn this car around.

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<v Speaker 5>That's it.

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<v Speaker 1>Back to Winnipeg.

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<v Speaker 2>Steven just like read America for filthyo, and I love.

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<v Speaker 1>It all right, all right, And you know, I think

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<v Speaker 1>we should end on those words as well. So those

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<v Speaker 1>of you out there watching, if you've enjoyed watching us,

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<v Speaker 1>talk about this tonight awesome