WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.720 --> 00:00:03.520 Hey, everybody, Welcome to another episode of Eyes on Geopolitics. 2 00:00:03.560 --> 00:00:07.759 I'm here with Jack Murphy and Jonathan Hackett. I would 3 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:13.279 say that the two big brains of the group Ivy 4 00:00:13.400 --> 00:00:16.719 League grads are almost Ivy League grad for John, he's 5 00:00:16.760 --> 00:00:20.039 getting there. Today's show is gonna be a little bit 6 00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:22.280 different than the normal show usually. Obviously we do like 7 00:00:22.359 --> 00:00:24.800 you know, what's going on current events wise, you know, 8 00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:29.120 you know, week fucking eighteen of the Iran War. I mean, 9 00:00:29.120 --> 00:00:32.280 this does have to do with Iran, obviously. This is 10 00:00:32.280 --> 00:00:36.960 more like I guess you can kind of characterize us 11 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:38.920 like one of the bigger intelligence stories in the last 12 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:41.039 four decades, and how the US is kind of like 13 00:00:42.520 --> 00:00:46.320 try to understand, like what's going on in Iran, especially 14 00:00:46.359 --> 00:00:49.640 after what happened in nineteen seventy nine with the revolution, 15 00:00:49.960 --> 00:00:53.439 and like, you know, our embassies being our embassy was 16 00:00:53.439 --> 00:00:57.560 a hostage place, a hostage, you know, a home for 17 00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:03.240 hostages essentially, and like we lost all of our intelligence, 18 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:07.640 at least human intelligence inside of Iran after nineteen seventy nine, 19 00:01:08.439 --> 00:01:10.799 and just leading up to what we're at where we're 20 00:01:10.799 --> 00:01:14.519 at today, like who we leaned on for intelligence help 21 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:18.159 throughout the last four decades. I mean, really it's a 22 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:20.680 longer story too, because we talk about like nineteen fifty 23 00:01:20.680 --> 00:01:22.680 three and stuff like that, Like it's so much, like 24 00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:25.840 there's so much there and I'm open to talking about that. 25 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:30.319 But my thought process was basically starting it off right 26 00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:35.519 after nineteen seventy nine, after the revolution, and basically us 27 00:01:35.519 --> 00:01:39.359 trying to having to build back our intelligence apparatus or 28 00:01:39.359 --> 00:01:46.120 the picture inside of Iran. So I brought our Iranian expert. 29 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:49.200 It was John Hackett, and Jack's here, Jacks here just 30 00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:51.959 because he's cute and I need sex appeal in the episode. 31 00:01:52.120 --> 00:01:52.680 I get it. 32 00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:56.400 Yeah, So, like, John, where do you want to start? 33 00:01:56.439 --> 00:01:58.239 You want to talk a little bit about what happened 34 00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:00.319 in nineteen fifty three and stuff like that, just to 35 00:02:00.359 --> 00:02:02.879 set the stage for what eventually happened with the revolution. 36 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:06.120 Yeah, so I can go back a little bit earlier 37 00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:07.959 than that because it's kind of relevant to like why 38 00:02:08.039 --> 00:02:10.240 did nineteen fifty three happen at all? So in nineteen 39 00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:13.000 oh six you had something called the Constitutional Revolution in Iran. 40 00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:15.360 There was this group called the Kajars, which had been 41 00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:17.840 ruling Iran for about two centuries. That was the monarchy 42 00:02:17.879 --> 00:02:21.840 for a while they were this originally Turkic backed group, 43 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:25.159 Turkish group, although they they're not Turks per se like 44 00:02:25.199 --> 00:02:28.719 Turkey Turks. They're a different kind of Turks that were 45 00:02:28.759 --> 00:02:30.960 ruling the country for a while. And you know, they're 46 00:02:31.000 --> 00:02:34.159 Persian people are Persian, they're not Turk and that there 47 00:02:34.199 --> 00:02:37.000 was a lot of friction between that monarchy and the 48 00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:41.319 Persian people that this Kajar Turk monarchy was ruling over. 49 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:44.199 So there's a lot of friction there. And leading up 50 00:02:44.199 --> 00:02:45.479 to that point, you had a lot of British and 51 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:50.159 Russian interests in what is now Iran. The Brits were 52 00:02:50.199 --> 00:02:52.719 interested in the south and the Russians were interested in 53 00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:55.039 the north. This will come into play later in World 54 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:58.599 War Two. Also, especially why some Kurds are pro regime 55 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:01.159 and some are anti regime and so are anti other Kurds. 56 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:02.840 That had a lot to do with how the Russians 57 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:07.000 and the British separated Iran and also separated what is 58 00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:10.080 now Iraq and Turkey. As far as spheres of influence, 59 00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:12.199 and if you remember the Pykes Picoa agreement. People have 60 00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:16.439 heard of this May sixteenth, nineteen fifteen or nineteen sixteen. 61 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:19.800 The French, the British and the Russians agreed to split 62 00:03:19.879 --> 00:03:21.960 up the Middle East into spheres of influence. That's how 63 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:26.000 we got the borders of Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Lebanon and 64 00:03:26.039 --> 00:03:28.719 so on. This is obviously before the creation of Israel, 65 00:03:28.759 --> 00:03:30.800 although it did set things in motion for what would 66 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:33.719 today become Israel in nineteen forty eight May nineteen forty eight, 67 00:03:34.039 --> 00:03:35.319 so a lot of these kind of things, like these 68 00:03:35.319 --> 00:03:37.520 little balls were getting put in motion and started to 69 00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:40.599 move around around this time, like after nineteen hundred ish 70 00:03:40.599 --> 00:03:43.439 to nineteen oh six, skipping a ton of history. Nineteen 71 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:45.319 oh six, the Iranian people said, we do not want 72 00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:48.360 this monarchy anymore, being as oppressive as its being. This 73 00:03:48.439 --> 00:03:51.319 is the Kadjar monarchy, and so they actually had something 74 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:54.080 called the Constitutional Revolution where they actually created eight what's 75 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:56.759 now called a Modulse, which is a council. It looks 76 00:03:56.759 --> 00:03:59.960 a lot like a parliament that did not exist before. 77 00:04:00.520 --> 00:04:02.439 They basically drew it up from scratch, and they said, 78 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:04.000 this is what we want for our parliament. We want 79 00:04:04.039 --> 00:04:06.639 representation from all of our provinces. There were thirty two provinces. 80 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:10.800 We want all these people representing in parliament. The Kajar 81 00:04:10.919 --> 00:04:13.879 monarchy became very weak because the Russian and British influence 82 00:04:14.120 --> 00:04:16.000 was poorly managed, just like it wasn't a lot of 83 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:18.879 imperial situations throughout South Asia and West Asia at the time, 84 00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:23.399 and so they basically got what they wanted. The Iranians 85 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:26.319 got an elected parliament for the first time in two 86 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:29.800 thousand years of history of monarchy, and the British and 87 00:04:29.800 --> 00:04:33.040 the Russians did not like this. They said, well, if 88 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:35.079 that happens, we lose control over this country. And in 89 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:37.519 particular they meant the things under the ground, which was 90 00:04:37.560 --> 00:04:40.519 oil because if you remember, Winston Churchill right before World 91 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:43.399 War One, converted the Navy into an oil only navy. 92 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:46.199 Before that it was a sale navy. It was a 93 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:50.240 coal navy, slow navy. And so the British interests were, 94 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:53.279 we need oil to power our ships because we know 95 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:55.279 that we're going to be in war. So what do 96 00:04:55.319 --> 00:04:57.399 we do. We go find oil. There's no oil in 97 00:04:57.399 --> 00:05:01.160 the UK obviously, and the refinery at Abadon, which is 98 00:05:01.199 --> 00:05:03.079 where the refinery still is now where most of the 99 00:05:03.160 --> 00:05:05.480 crude oil from Iran exits. That was a British run 100 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:11.560 petroleum situation. So fast forward a little bit World War one, happens. 101 00:05:12.279 --> 00:05:15.439 There's you know, the Bolshevik Revolution. The Russians have their 102 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:18.680 own situation going on up in Russia. The Russians back 103 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:21.240 out of the sikes Peco agreement. They actually publicized the 104 00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:24.079 secret sykes Pecoa agreement that divided up the Middle East, 105 00:05:24.639 --> 00:05:27.519 and that's how we actually know about the sichs Pecoa 106 00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:30.040 agreement between Britain and France and why the Kurds don't 107 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:32.600 have a state and all this stuff, and so the 108 00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:34.279 Russians kind of let go of that for a while, 109 00:05:34.279 --> 00:05:35.879 but then they realize, like, oh, man, actually there's a 110 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:38.519 lot of good resources there. Let's return there and actually 111 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:40.519 raise a shaw. The first Shaw of Iran in the 112 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:43.360 nineteen twenties early nineteen twenties was picked by the British 113 00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:47.160 out of a Russian backed Cossick brigade. Essentially, it was 114 00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:49.439 kind of this like irregular force that the Russians were 115 00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:53.079 sponsoring and let him become the Shaw of the country. 116 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:56.040 They kicked the Kajars out and put the shaw in charge, 117 00:05:56.079 --> 00:05:59.279 Shaw Palavi Raisa Palavi. Right, So then he gets a 118 00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:01.079 little bit too close to Auto Turk, which was the 119 00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:03.279 Turkish autocrat that emerged out of World War One, after 120 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:05.759 the Automan Empire dissolved. The sex Pico Agreement said there's 121 00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:08.120 no more Automan Empire. There is now a Turkey, and 122 00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:11.040 there's an Iran and Assyria and all so on. And 123 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:13.759 they didn't like the way that he was aligning with 124 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:15.240 Auto Turk. In fact, he was starting to wear the 125 00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:19.160 same mustache, the same hair. He started banning certain clothing 126 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:22.399 that looks like too European. He liked the more fascist 127 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:24.839 type clothing because the's a lot of fascism going on 128 00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:28.360 in the thirties in some parts of all Earth. Right, Yeah, 129 00:06:28.360 --> 00:06:30.959 there's some different varieties of fascism going on. And it 130 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:32.879 turned out that Reza started getting a little too close 131 00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:35.720 to that. World War II happens, and I'm focusing on 132 00:06:35.759 --> 00:06:38.360 Iran here, So world War II happens, Russia and Britain 133 00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:41.240 are still interested. They were allies in World War Two. 134 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:43.839 Middle East starts getting a little disrupted after World War 135 00:06:43.879 --> 00:06:46.160 Two because a lot of the way France was ruling 136 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:48.560 things got disrupted because of Vichy France, which was the 137 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:50.839 Nazi backed part of France. So there's a lot of 138 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:54.639 disruption there also in Vietnam, different story, but in Iran. 139 00:06:54.920 --> 00:06:57.160 Suddenly there are a lot of Kurds that were helping 140 00:06:57.240 --> 00:07:00.839 the Russians and the Brits against the Nazis in parts 141 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:03.759 of the Middle East, because there was a whole part 142 00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:06.279 of the Nazi situation in the Middle East that you know, 143 00:07:06.279 --> 00:07:08.600 there were some Syrian groups, there were some Lebanese groups, 144 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:12.680 some Vichy French backed groups. You know, through the background 145 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:15.399 of the Nazi Party. There very fascinating part of history 146 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:17.120 that I think a lot of Westerners don't really understand 147 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:18.439 or think about, like what was going on in the 148 00:07:18.439 --> 00:07:21.279 Middle East during World War two. And so what happened 149 00:07:21.319 --> 00:07:23.839 was the Russians didn't let go of northern Iran. They said, no, 150 00:07:23.879 --> 00:07:26.399 we're still interested in Iran. Even after the war ended, 151 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:29.319 they said we want this northern part for ourselves, because 152 00:07:29.319 --> 00:07:30.800 the Soviet Union went all the way up to the 153 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:35.399 border there. And so you had some Kurds who said, well, 154 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:38.759 we want independence. Then in exchange for US supporting you, Russia, 155 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:41.839 and Russia said okay, and so you suddenly got the 156 00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:44.720 Republic of Azerbaijan, not the country of Azerbaijan today, but 157 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:47.439 the province of Azerbaijan and Iran became independent for two 158 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:50.360 years backed by Russia, and so did Mahabad, which is 159 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:53.600 a Kurdish province in Iran near the Lake Ormea region, 160 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:55.879 which is where the Barzani family is from, which is 161 00:07:55.879 --> 00:07:57.800 now why the Barzanis are not in Iran, they're in 162 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:00.839 Iraq because of that exact situation. They actually fled Iran 163 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:03.439 for their lives and survived, whereas the other Kurds who 164 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:07.399 backed that uprising all were slaughtered by the Shah's son 165 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:11.680 who came in after he was the father was actually ousted. 166 00:08:12.360 --> 00:08:14.279 For a very brief period of time, there was a coup. 167 00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:17.240 This was nineteen fifty three. So I put a lot 168 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:20.319 of spaghetti in that bowl. But all the little threads 169 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:22.079 kind of lead to that moment of why did we 170 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:24.480 have this coup in nineteen fifty three with the CIA 171 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:29.240 and the British backing this guy his son Polavi, And 172 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:31.879 that's kind of how we got there. And I can 173 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:33.600 talk about like what it was if you want, or 174 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:36.600 we can go down different pathways, whatever you think is best. 175 00:08:37.639 --> 00:08:39.600 I mean, I think I would love to continue with 176 00:08:39.639 --> 00:08:42.240 the history, but I think to take a quick pause, 177 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:46.000 if you could contextualize a little bit of how much 178 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:49.159 is the history of this period of Iranian history that 179 00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:50.200 we're talking about. 180 00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:51.919 Is it a history of foreign. 181 00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:57.200 Meddling or is it a history of indigenous power struggle? 182 00:08:57.639 --> 00:09:00.200 And or is it a confluence between the two, which 183 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:03.240 is what it sounds like happened. I mean, what system 184 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:06.279 do you think ended up being the defining feature of Iran? 185 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:10.039 So the problem in Iran is that the Iranian people 186 00:09:10.080 --> 00:09:13.519 have not been able to rule themselves ever since Islam arrived, gotcha? 187 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:15.399 And this is kind of the narrative that you hear 188 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:17.399 a lot of. There's actually a book called Two Centuries 189 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:19.960 of Silence, which is by an author named Zarrein Koub 190 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:22.639 who wrote this book in Farsi. It's now in English 191 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:25.600 as well, I think, But it's basically about when Islam 192 00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:30.559 arrived in Iran, the Iranians lost control of themselves because 193 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:35.120 there were these caliphates from Mecca and from what is 194 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:38.519 now Istanbul basically ruling over Iran in various ways, whether 195 00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:41.200 that's religiously or politically, or a combination of the two, 196 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:43.799 in various iterations over those times. Since the ninth century, 197 00:09:44.200 --> 00:09:47.120 when Iran lost its independence, which was a result of 198 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:49.320 the Byzantine Empire and the Persian empire fighting each other 199 00:09:49.320 --> 00:09:51.440 so intensely in the Middle East that neither of them emerged, 200 00:09:51.480 --> 00:09:53.840 and both the Byzantines and the Persians lost control, and 201 00:09:53.879 --> 00:09:56.480 the Islam came in out of nowhere and basically took over, 202 00:09:57.159 --> 00:09:59.639 which is exactly what happened. That's why Turkey is Turkey 203 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:04.279 and you know Rome anymore, and also why the the 204 00:10:04.279 --> 00:10:06.559 the Iranians don't rule over any part of what used 205 00:10:06.600 --> 00:10:10.279 to be Persia anymore. There is no more Persia per se. 206 00:10:10.639 --> 00:10:13.679 And this must be a source of huge consternation for 207 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:18.080 the Iranian people, who they're very proud. They see themselves 208 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:20.399 as you know, I guess you could say the center 209 00:10:20.440 --> 00:10:24.080 of civilization in some ways, they some of them see 210 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:26.679 themselves as a regional power, if not a world power. 211 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:29.639 If you go back into Iranian history, all the way 212 00:10:29.639 --> 00:10:33.080 back to like Darius and all these other characters in 213 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:38.519 the in the historical past, and this must grind pretty 214 00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:43.000 bad on the on the Persian people and you know, influence, 215 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:44.960 you know, their desire for self governance. 216 00:10:45.559 --> 00:10:48.000 Well, the story of Islam and Iran is a story 217 00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:51.120 of humiliation for a lot of Persians, because if you 218 00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:54.039 look back, like you mentioned with Daryush, and Kurush, which 219 00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:57.159 is Cyrus and English and Greek. They when you look 220 00:10:57.159 --> 00:10:59.440 at that time period, the things that they invented, it's 221 00:10:59.480 --> 00:11:00.679 kind of like when you look at the US in 222 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:05.519 the nineteenth century, like railways, electricity, telegraph Like that's how 223 00:11:05.559 --> 00:11:08.679 they look at that time. Because the Kingdom of Lydia, 224 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:10.440 which was under Persian control at the time in the 225 00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:13.799 fifth century, sixth century, they invented coined money. They also 226 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:17.320 invented the postal system, They invented passports. I mean, like 227 00:11:17.399 --> 00:11:20.080 things that are so fundamental to modern society came from 228 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:22.120 that empire in like a very short period of time. Really, 229 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:23.679 it was about a century and a half to shoot 230 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:26.399 century's maximum, and suddenly, like this stuff was just coming 231 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:28.720 out of there. I mean, even during the Islamic Golden 232 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:30.879 Age the thirteenth century that we think about as like 233 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:33.639 Islam kind of being this enlightened period during the Dark 234 00:11:33.639 --> 00:11:36.799 Ages in Europe, those were all Persian scholars who were 235 00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:40.399 under Muslim control, you know, like the invention of algebra, 236 00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:42.799 although the name Algebra is an Arabic name, that was 237 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:46.120 a Persian mathematician, you know, And like the list goes 238 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:48.279 on and on, like all these inventions, like the concept 239 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:52.320 of the zero sipher was invented by a Persian mathematician, 240 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:55.320 like all this stuff, so like they're thinking like also, 241 00:11:55.559 --> 00:11:59.000 so they actually got chess through an Indian intermediaria named 242 00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:02.840 Bozorgimir who came in the eighth century to Iran and 243 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:04.879 delivered it to the shot at the time, which is 244 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:07.279 actually in the book called Shahname, which is the book 245 00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:10.720 of Kings by fer Dowsy, who's a famous Persian poet. Interesting, 246 00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:14.320 very fascinating. But the word chess actually means SHA's kings 247 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:17.480 And when you say checkmate, it's shah mate, which means 248 00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:18.200 king is dead. 249 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:18.759 Wow. 250 00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:20.120 So like all this stuff is Persian. 251 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:24.519 Wow. Yo, John, I read just a little aside. I 252 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:27.320 feel like you're very good at jeopardy. Is that true. 253 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:29.759 Facts are important? 254 00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:34.320 Yeah? All right, all right, so where do we leave off? 255 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:35.399 We left off you know the. 256 00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:40.720 Fifty three, you know the the you know subsequent CIA 257 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:42.039 and MI six. 258 00:12:42.159 --> 00:12:43.639 Interest in Iran. 259 00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:47.480 Yeah, so it was called Operation Ajax. And what it was, 260 00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:49.559 Remember I said the thing about nineteen oh six. It 261 00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:51.360 was the first time in history that they had their 262 00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:54.000 own elected government and so on, right, and that was 263 00:12:54.039 --> 00:12:57.960 destroyed by the British for economic interests for the British. Well, 264 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:00.799 fast forward to nineteen fifty two, you have this guy 265 00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:04.200 named Mohammad Mosadagg who was the first like really truly 266 00:13:04.600 --> 00:13:08.039 widely elected prime minister in Iran that represented the people 267 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:09.679 in a way that was kind of disruptive for the 268 00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:12.000 monarchy because a lot of the things that he supported 269 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:14.639 did not align with the monarchy, which meant remember this 270 00:13:14.679 --> 00:13:17.840 monarchy was put there by the British essentially, and so 271 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:21.279 this guy who's very popular did not agree with the 272 00:13:21.320 --> 00:13:24.519 things that this British installed monarch wanted. You have a 273 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:27.200 friction point. And right after World War Two, you know, 274 00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:29.720 the world's recovering. You've got Breton woods in Europe, You've 275 00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:31.679 got a lot of reconstruction going on. There's a huge 276 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:34.360 demand for oil and other industrial growth capacity in developing 277 00:13:34.360 --> 00:13:37.679 countries that are now recently decolonized, including the places through 278 00:13:37.720 --> 00:13:40.240 the Psychs Pico Agreement like Iraq, like Basara, which was 279 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:43.039 a very important Iraqi port that was run by the 280 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:48.600 British and Abadon another oil facility. Well, Mohammed Mosadegg nationalized 281 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:52.720 Iran's oil kind of like happened in Venezuela and you 282 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:56.960 kind of notice this theme of when leaders nationalize their oil, Britain, 283 00:13:57.039 --> 00:13:59.399 the US, or Russia or a combination of the three 284 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:02.440 will enter that country and stop it from happening. Venezuela 285 00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:06.159 as an example, Libya as another example. This is even 286 00:14:06.200 --> 00:14:08.159 if they start talking about it, you just see this 287 00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:10.759 giant influx of Western interest into the country, like you 288 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:14.039 will stop that now, or we'll stop you. So it's 289 00:14:14.120 --> 00:14:16.399 very fascinating. Actually, Egypt, the whole reason we had the 290 00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:18.919 Suez Crisis in Egypt in nineteen fifty six was again 291 00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:21.919 because they wanted to nationalize the oil, and so France 292 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:26.320 and Britain basically told Israel to invade Egypt and stop 293 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:28.399 Egypt from nationalizing its oil. And it wasn't you know 294 00:14:28.519 --> 00:14:30.840 until later on that the world realized that wasn't Israel, 295 00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:32.919 that was actually Britain in France doing that through Israel. 296 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:35.440 In the States kind of opted out of that right 297 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:38.840 and it damaged relations, yes, exactly, and then we had 298 00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:41.600 the Liberty Incident very you know, around the same exact time, 299 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:44.440 June eighth, and you know, one hundred over one hundred 300 00:14:44.440 --> 00:14:46.840 American sailors were killed by Israeli air force strikes on 301 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:48.759 the on the ship, even though they knew it was 302 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:50.559 an American ship, but they didn't want a second ship 303 00:14:50.559 --> 00:14:52.440 collecting on what they were doing, so they killed all 304 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:55.080 the Americans on board, which I think Americans like, don't 305 00:14:55.080 --> 00:14:57.720 realize that was a deliberate strike on an American vessel 306 00:14:57.720 --> 00:15:01.720 by Israeli Air Force pilots. But zooming back out again 307 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:05.200 to Mosadegg, he nationalizes the oil. The British are like, 308 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:08.320 no way, because they had the British Iranian Petroleum Company 309 00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:11.639 and they they said, remember this is like when you 310 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:15.200 had shell oil like Royal Dutch Shell and all that. 311 00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:19.240 There was the British VP, British Petroleum ran abadon that 312 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:21.799 the crude oil output platform in carg Island, all the 313 00:15:21.799 --> 00:15:24.240 stuff we're talking about today, that was all British, you know, 314 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:27.000 colonized oil infrastructure. It was like slave like conditions there 315 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:29.720 and mosa Egg basically wanted to rest the control of 316 00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:31.799 that because they were only getting like less than ten 317 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:33.440 percent of the oil revenues. The rest was going to 318 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:37.360 the British exchequer and so they wanted more. They didn't 319 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:40.440 want one hundred percent. Actually, they want to just negotiate. Yeah, 320 00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:43.879 they want to negotiate. Yeah, because Saudi Arabia actually successfully 321 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:45.799 had done so at around the same time, and they're like, hey, 322 00:15:45.799 --> 00:15:47.399 we want to be like Saudi Arabian and gaging control 323 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:50.159 of our sovereign assets under the soil and the British. 324 00:15:49.879 --> 00:15:52.960 Shop you're not shocking theory, right, want to take control 325 00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:54.159 of your sovereign assets. 326 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:54.679 Yeah. 327 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:56.039 It's like China come to the US and being like, 328 00:15:56.039 --> 00:15:57.360 we're going to take over your oil in the US 329 00:15:57.480 --> 00:16:02.000 is like okay, take it, you know. Yeah, so it's crazy. 330 00:16:02.039 --> 00:16:03.879 And then the British basically said, well, we can't do 331 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:06.080 it on our own, we need help. Who else can 332 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:09.600 help us? Well, Kermit Roosevelt, the grandson of President Roosevelt, 333 00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:13.240 raised his hand, you know, Oss guy now CIA guy 334 00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:16.840 basically went in there and they came up with a 335 00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:19.639 plan to put another guy named Zahidi, who was a 336 00:16:19.639 --> 00:16:22.559 military officer in charge of the country temporarily in a 337 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:26.000 coup like situation. They surrounded Mosaegg's house. They like basically 338 00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:27.960 threatened to blow his house up and kill the guy. 339 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:30.720 They captured him. It went south. It didn't go the 340 00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:32.440 way they thought it would go. I mean imagine that 341 00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:35.720 this kind of operation if you saw it was very 342 00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:39.279 complicated and went badly. We have a history of doing 343 00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:40.799 so in your own like you look at Operation Eagle 344 00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:45.200 Claw nineteen eighty look at that, and you know, even now, 345 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:47.720 things sometimes get out of control there because we don't 346 00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:51.799 really understand the situation anyways. So mosaed Egg is removed, 347 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:53.759 he's kind of like put into disgrace, and they bring 348 00:16:53.799 --> 00:17:00.279 in rais A Paulavi's son, Mohammed Paulavi, and he he 349 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:04.119 becomes the Shah. So they basically destroyed the elected officials 350 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:05.720 and the government got rid of all of them and 351 00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:09.880 put in autocrats that the US and Britain selected to 352 00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:11.960 rule the country, and they ruled the country until nineteen 353 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:14.000 seventy nine. So there was a lot of discontent at 354 00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:16.000 the time. And even if you talk to some Iranians today, 355 00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:19.640 some of them that are monarchists don't support Mosaedgg. Now 356 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:21.480 they look back and they're like, oh, Mosaegg was terrible, 357 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:25.160 he was a tool of the Russians. He's a communist 358 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:27.039 who's a Marxist. You hear all this like negative stuff 359 00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:31.079 because the people who are monarchists really are anti anything 360 00:17:31.079 --> 00:17:33.839 else than the monarchy. So there's a lot of friction 361 00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:36.279 there on the outside of Iran when you're thinking about, like, 362 00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:38.640 why aren't these groups working together to overthrow the current 363 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:40.559 regime if it's so bad and they all hate it, 364 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:43.119 It's because they they don't all agree with each other 365 00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:45.119 on what should happen in the country and like what's 366 00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:47.359 the right government? Which makes sense. I mean, that's what 367 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:50.240 democracy actually is, is people all disagreeing about stuff, but 368 00:17:50.279 --> 00:17:52.839 somehow they all vote and you know, get through it, 369 00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:58.000 sometimes better or worse. But yeah, so that's what happened 370 00:17:58.000 --> 00:17:59.960 in nineteen fifty three and kind of like a broad brushstroke. 371 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:05.319 Hello everyone, if you're hearing this you are not a 372 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:09.759 member of the Patreon you can get your hands on 373 00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:13.240 ad free episodes that come out early and you can 374 00:18:13.279 --> 00:18:15.599 ask us questions maybe we'll answer them. You can also 375 00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:19.400 watch the team House podcast completely ad free and early, 376 00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:21.519 and you can also watch it live as we interview 377 00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:25.319 our guests, and it's the best way to support the channel. 378 00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:27.599 So if you can, if you're open to it, you 379 00:18:27.640 --> 00:18:30.720 can go to patreon dot com slash the Teamhouse. That 380 00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:34.359 link is in the description. H We appreciate the supporters 381 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:36.839 and we hope you would consider being one. So it's 382 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:42.400 Patreon dot com, slash the teamhouse, thanks guys. Yeah, and 383 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:45.240 then you saw I mean during that time, obviously people 384 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:48.519 were getting fed up with the Shaw and uh, you 385 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:50.640 know that's when the first uh, I don't know how 386 00:18:50.680 --> 00:18:55.400 you come any came off any. Yeah, and uh he 387 00:18:55.480 --> 00:18:56.000 was exiled. 388 00:18:56.680 --> 00:18:58.759 He was exiled to Najeff. He was in Nadjoff, he 389 00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:00.519 was making all these little tapes and stud them around 390 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:03.599 with basically his message against the regime or that regime 391 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:06.839 the kingdom. And then from Iraq he went to France 392 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:09.119 because at the time, France was very socialist. I mean, 393 00:19:09.160 --> 00:19:10.279 I don't know what they are now, but at the 394 00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:12.039 time they were very socialist, and there was a lot 395 00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:15.200 of this, you know, the war in Algeria had just ended. 396 00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:17.119 They got out of Vietnam, so there's a lot of 397 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:20.319 this like anti colonialism going on, anti monarchy going on 398 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:23.240 in France with the population. So they're very supportive of 399 00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:26.920 bringing Hamani into France and giving him basically state protection 400 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:30.440 and giving him a platform to send his message instead 401 00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:33.160 of through tapes with couriers. Now he was able to 402 00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:35.680 be in the newspaper and on recordings and like really 403 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:39.200 made into this legitimate figure of opposition. He made a 404 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:41.119 ton of promises. He said like, oh, women will be 405 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:43.519 free under my control, and I'll only rule for a 406 00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:46.200 short time and then there'll be an election. You know, 407 00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:49.079 women will have not any requirements about what they wear. 408 00:19:49.240 --> 00:19:51.960 Islam will be an option like all this stuff, which 409 00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:54.000 actually is still in their constitution now, like women actually 410 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:56.519 have full rights in their constitution. But as you can see, 411 00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:59.559 that is not actually what's going on. So people believed 412 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:02.680 him to the degree necessary. And actually there were a 413 00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:05.079 lot of people from the Mossadeg camp, like the elected 414 00:20:05.079 --> 00:20:07.440 officials who were kind of now just afloat and not 415 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:10.200 really part of the government anymore. They came to see 416 00:20:10.279 --> 00:20:12.279 him and visit him, and he was saying like, hey, 417 00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:13.960 I'll let you guys actually come on board. If we 418 00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:16.880 have a revolution, there's a place for you, right, And 419 00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:18.759 that's actually how it worked out. In the very beginning. 420 00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:22.480 Sod Bani Sader, who was from the old government, was 421 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:24.599 actually able to be president of the country for a 422 00:20:24.599 --> 00:20:27.720 short period of time until there were massive assassination attempts 423 00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:32.839 across everybody in the government. But it wasn't just Ramani 424 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:35.960 who was resisting the Shah. You also had the Mujahadini Kalk, 425 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:39.319 which was a Marxist organization. You had the fedi Jini Kalk, 426 00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:42.359 which is an even more Marxist organization. You had some 427 00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:46.680 people following Ali Shariati, who is a very smart intellectual 428 00:20:46.839 --> 00:20:50.279 that was also quasi Marxist, talking about how the Shah 429 00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:51.880 should be removed and there should be this kind of 430 00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:56.039 egalitarian Islam in the country. You had Kurdish groups as well. 431 00:20:56.079 --> 00:21:00.559 There were you know, Komala which means hope. Kamala was 432 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:03.319 one of these parties, congred Jel which was in Turkey, 433 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:05.920 and some other groups as well that now have formed 434 00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:09.960 two groups we recognize today, like p Jack and those groups. 435 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:13.839 Those came from that pre revolutionary period to resist the monarchy. 436 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:16.640 And as I said and shows previously, you know, it's 437 00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:19.319 not that they don't like this government. They don't like 438 00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:21.680 any of the governments that have been there. They want 439 00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:24.200 their own ruling situation, you know. And if you've been 440 00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:26.680 to Syria, you know that there's some Kurds in Syria 441 00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:28.920 who want no government at all. They want this like 442 00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:33.160 anarchic egalitarian system that and they've been able to actually 443 00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:35.960 live it to a degree for some years. But it's 444 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:37.400 kind of a challenge for it to belong to the 445 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:40.640 rest of the region. Yeah, so you've got all these 446 00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:43.359 groups there kind of with a unified goal, and that 447 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:47.079 goal is getting rid of the current government. But that ends. 448 00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:50.920 The unification ends there because once the government's gone, they 449 00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:53.480 are no longer friends. And when the revolution happened, you 450 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:56.279 saw that right away with the Muja Dicalc, which is 451 00:21:56.359 --> 00:21:59.920 still currently the largest opposition to the current government that exists. 452 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:04.680 Their headquarters is in Tarana and Albania now, but during 453 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:09.480 the revolution they were immediately ostracized because the Ayatola recognized 454 00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:11.359 that these guys are powerful, they have guns, and they 455 00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:14.000 don't like us. They didn't like the Shah either, but 456 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:15.720 they don't like us, so we're gonna get rid of 457 00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:17.559 them as much as we can. They executed like three 458 00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:20.359 thousand of them across a couple of days through hanging, 459 00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:23.000 so there's like mass lynching going on, and so a 460 00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:25.240 lot of them went to Iraq where Saddam Hussein protected 461 00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:27.200 them because remember the Iran Iraq War started as soon 462 00:22:27.240 --> 00:22:30.079 as the revolution happened. Revolution happened, so these guys went 463 00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:32.799 over there and Saddam protected them because they knew Iran, 464 00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:35.599 they could infiltrate Iran and they could help Saddam basically 465 00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:38.279 doing quasi advance force operations inside of. 466 00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:40.559 Iran with the origins of Emik. 467 00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:44.519 This is the mek Mujadini Khalk, which means the People's 468 00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:48.559 Mujahadeen or the People's Fighters. Essentially. There's another group called Tudae, 469 00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:52.119 which means the workers. Tuda was an actual communist party, 470 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:54.759 like a legit communist party that was like directly connected 471 00:22:54.759 --> 00:22:57.319 to Russia that was immediately outlawed. They were all executed. 472 00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:00.119 But the Mujadein actually knew how to fight, and so 473 00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:02.240 they were a much more difficult problem for the new 474 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:06.200 government after the revolution. Well, Saddam, you know, and the 475 00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:08.480 government of Iran came to an agreement that in nineteen 476 00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:10.839 eighty eighth of the war is over, Saddam basically kicked 477 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:13.759 the Mujadini Kalk out of Iraq. There was nowhere for 478 00:23:13.799 --> 00:23:15.759 them to go. But the US saw them as a partner, 479 00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:18.119 because remember the US was backing Iran and Iraq at 480 00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:20.319 the same time in that war, and so the US said, 481 00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:22.359 these are useful people, let's let's do something about this. 482 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:25.720 They actually ended up in Albania and they are there 483 00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:28.559 now at a place called Camp asharof number three. And 484 00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:30.599 Asharaf is actually the name of a woman that was 485 00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:32.759 married to the original founder of the Mujini i Kalk 486 00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:34.799 and he was in love with her and all this, 487 00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:37.400 but he actually married somebody else, and she's the one Rajawi, 488 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:39.960 Miriam Rajawi is now leading the Muchadin. It's a very crazy, 489 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:43.920 interesting cult like situation. But I'll just leave pin in that. Yeah, 490 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.960 but they're in Albania basically leading the resistance from one 491 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:52.119 angle against the regime. Now monarchists hate them like they 492 00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:54.160 are arch enemies of the monarchists because they also were 493 00:23:54.200 --> 00:23:57.319 fighting the SHA, so it's not like they joined the 494 00:23:57.319 --> 00:23:59.960 revolution and everything's different. Like they still hate the Sha 495 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:02.960 and they hate the current government in Iran. So you 496 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:07.240 have this like armed trained organization that hates both resistance 497 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:10.240 and the current government that's allowed to operate. And you 498 00:24:10.279 --> 00:24:13.960 know now today their best friend and trainer is Israel, 499 00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:17.000 because Israel saw this as an opportunity to balance against 500 00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:19.000 Iran in the regions. Starting in the nineteen nineties the 501 00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:21.680 early nineties, especially after the Oslo Accords made Jordan part 502 00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:26.359 of the alliance, you know, supporting Israel. So when that happened, 503 00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:31.640 Israel started supporting surrogate forces that were Mujadini kalk And 504 00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:36.680 forces in Azerbaijan because the Aziris have ethnic Aziris in 505 00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:38.839 Iran as well. Remember I mentioned there's that separatist group 506 00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:41.799 that had an independent Azerbaijan for two years inside of Iran. 507 00:24:42.279 --> 00:24:44.599 Well there's the country of Azerbaijan across the border. They're 508 00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:47.440 the same ethnic group. So Israel recognized, like, hey, we 509 00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:50.039 can actually have a pretty poorest border situation if we 510 00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:52.400 work with the Aziris in Azerbaijan and send them into 511 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:56.240 Iran to do things for us. If you remember Ferukzade 512 00:24:56.279 --> 00:24:59.640 the nuclear scientist that was assassinated with a machine like 513 00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:05.359 a robot, situation, that was Mujinini khalk and AZII entities 514 00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:08.359 working together to do that. There wasn't like an Israeli 515 00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:10.599 operative on the ground with a button that was recruited 516 00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:13.279 assets that worked from these ethnic groups and these resistance 517 00:25:13.319 --> 00:25:15.640 groups to do this. And Israel has used this to 518 00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:17.440 great effect. I mean, a lot of the penetration of 519 00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:22.039 the Iranian government is through these Aziri and mujahideen people 520 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:24.559 that are in Iran. They live in Iran, whether that's 521 00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:26.880 from the western side of the country crossing over from 522 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:30.039 Kurdistan or from Azerbaijan coming south. 523 00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:35.000 Yeah. Now, I'm glad you talked about the MKA a 524 00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:36.519 little bit because they do seem like a little bit 525 00:25:36.519 --> 00:25:38.359 of a paramilitary force for Israel. 526 00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:41.799 That are one that's been active in Iran in the past. 527 00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:43.240 I'm not sure where they are today. 528 00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:48.400 Jundla, Yeah, so Jundalas and Balochistan in southeast they have 529 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:52.039 had their own separatist situation against the regime and actually 530 00:25:52.279 --> 00:25:55.400 cost some Solamani, the former Kutz Force commander, when he 531 00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:57.240 was a field great officer, when he was like a major, 532 00:25:57.799 --> 00:26:02.960 his first combat experience was in Baluchistan fighting Jundala and 533 00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:05.000 that's where he actually led units for the very first 534 00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:07.440 time in combat. So he actually ran them out of 535 00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:12.400 southeast Iran into Pakistan and Afghanistan because there's a triborder 536 00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:14.480 area there that's known as Baluchistan in all three of 537 00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:19.000 the countries. The Jindala people wanted to basically have a 538 00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:23.079 separate Baluchistan country that would consist of parts of Iran, 539 00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:27.599 parts of Afghanistan, and parts of Pakistan. They were in 540 00:26:27.640 --> 00:26:30.839 some ways supported by Pakistan against Iran. But as has 541 00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:35.279 happened with Pakistan numerous times, Pakistan has supported, you know, 542 00:26:35.480 --> 00:26:38.680 insurgents in another country that end up coming into Pakistan 543 00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:42.000 and causing problems in Pakistan because they're somehow don't have 544 00:26:42.039 --> 00:26:45.720 the foresight to think about that. But Jundala has actually 545 00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:47.880 changed its name into a couple of different groups now 546 00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:49.720 and so Pakistan that way they can say that they've 547 00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:52.720 defeated Jundala. It is not defeated. It continues till today. 548 00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:54.920 And it's actually a huge problem because there's a Chinese 549 00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:59.240 owned mine in western Pakistan that's inside of Balochistan that's 550 00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:02.839 been like significantly under attack by is what used to 551 00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:05.880 be Jundala but now different forces. And this is part 552 00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:09.240 of China's Belt and Roade initiative in Pakistan. So you've 553 00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:11.559 got this mine in Buluchistan, and you have a port 554 00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:15.200 called Guadar which is also in the Pakistani coast, which 555 00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:18.599 is completely owned by China, and it's owned by China, 556 00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:21.720 run by China. It's basically China's access to that waterway 557 00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:25.160 over land if they want to. And that all occurred 558 00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:27.359 while the US was deployed in Afghanistan. You know, fighting 559 00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:30.359 the Taliban. Meanwhile, China was in Islamabad negotiating with the 560 00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:33.079 Pakistani's basically to set this thing up and also gain 561 00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:35.119 access to all the tritium, which is a special rare 562 00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:38.359 earth mineral that we need. They paid something like six 563 00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:41.559 billion dollars for all tritium in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and 564 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:44.960 it's worth several trillion dollars in total value. So that 565 00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:48.440 was a pretty good bargain for them. And actually yeah, 566 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:51.039 and actually the government of Afghanistan was great with that 567 00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:53.559 because they signed the document and then when the Taliban came, 568 00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:56.519 the Taliban took that document from the government of Afghanistan also 569 00:27:56.559 --> 00:27:59.559 honored it. So China and the Taliban also, you know, 570 00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:02.759 or an agreement about the tritium. And of course they 571 00:28:02.759 --> 00:28:05.039 are with Pakistan too, So that kind of goes to 572 00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:07.319 the Jundla issue because Junda is looking at that, they're like, hey, 573 00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:09.839 we have sovereign, you know, ethnic ownership of this area. 574 00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:14.640 You've got China, Pakistan, Iran like threatening our ethnic homeland 575 00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:16.680 that we have been in for thousands of years. You know, 576 00:28:16.759 --> 00:28:18.920 a lot of them are either nomadic or semi nomadic 577 00:28:19.079 --> 00:28:21.799 in the past, they're a little bit more settled now, 578 00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:24.079 but they're responsible for a lot of the drugs going 579 00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:26.200 into and out of Iran because they're getting a lot 580 00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:28.480 of opium from Afghanistan. There's no border. I mean, if 581 00:28:28.519 --> 00:28:30.559 you've been to that area, there's literally no You have 582 00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:32.359 no idea which country you're standing in at that moment. 583 00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:35.000 And that's happened to me several times. It's just like 584 00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:37.319 open desert and rock and mountain and you're like, oh, 585 00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:40.519 did we land in Pakistan or is this Iran or Afghanistan? 586 00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:43.079 And they're able, they have like complete control over it. 587 00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:45.799 They move drugs all, like huge amounts of drugs. And 588 00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:47.880 the other problem for Iran's government is that a lot 589 00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:51.599 of the IERGC border control guys are like in bed 590 00:28:51.599 --> 00:28:54.279 with these guys as far as drug movement because they're 591 00:28:54.279 --> 00:28:56.200 making a lot of money off of it. So there's 592 00:28:56.240 --> 00:28:59.319 a lot of like interest from Tehran over that southeast 593 00:28:59.319 --> 00:29:03.680 border with power Pakistan and Afghanistan, like monitoring, counterintelligence, monitoring 594 00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:06.519 of the IRGC officers that are down there, because they're 595 00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:08.759 so concerned about the drugs moving into Iran, which is 596 00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:09.680 a big problem in Iran. 597 00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:12.880 So I mean, when I listen to you talk about 598 00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:13.599 this subject. 599 00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:15.279 What it sounds like is that there are all of 600 00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:18.640 these different factions in Iran who dislike each other and 601 00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:21.640 have their own grievances and have their own ideas about 602 00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:24.440 how the country should be run. Are we in a 603 00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:27.880 situation where these factions have kind of been tampered down 604 00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:32.119 by oppressive authoritarian regimes for you know, fifty plus years, 605 00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:34.920 and if we Americans were to go in and remove 606 00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:38.960 that regime, it would plunge Iran into civil war, just 607 00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:40.880 like the Syrians went through a civil war. 608 00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:44.160 I like to use the example of Yugoslavia actually because 609 00:29:44.200 --> 00:29:46.400 I feel like there's a lot of similarity there where 610 00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:50.039 under a particular structure, very specific type of government, the 611 00:29:50.079 --> 00:29:53.200 people were able to be managed to a degree. You 612 00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:57.000 remove that person, Tito, and then you've got Bosnia, You've 613 00:29:57.000 --> 00:29:59.599 got Kosovo, you've got the Albanian conflict, which wasn't part 614 00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:01.640 of Yugos lobby, but still was on the cusp of it, 615 00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:06.839 you know, Croatia. And before that, though, the reason Tito 616 00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:10.880 was able to actually make a country was because of 617 00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:15.000 British OSS SOOE support. So the US OSS and the 618 00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:18.160 British SOE sent in very small teams to set up 619 00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:21.559 drop zones inside of the Balkans, and it was a 620 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:25.799 pretty incredible operation that if you're a student of special operations, 621 00:30:25.799 --> 00:30:29.000 I think like you need to master that that case study, 622 00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:30.720 because it was probably one of the best ones we've 623 00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:33.640 had in the past eighty years. That was very successful 624 00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:37.480 of very minimal Western contact, like you know, US and 625 00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:40.640 British contact with the Partner Force. The Partner Force like 626 00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:44.519 owned that conflict and they they executed it really well. 627 00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:47.799 They actually killed more Germans than the conventional forces did 628 00:30:47.799 --> 00:30:50.319 in that area, and they were like a huge problem 629 00:30:50.359 --> 00:30:53.480 for the Germans in the conflict, and Tito was able 630 00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:56.279 to actually, as partisan leader, bring all those different ethnic 631 00:30:56.279 --> 00:30:59.160 groups together. So the question is can that happen today? 632 00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:01.720 Is there is there Tito like figure in Iran today? 633 00:31:01.720 --> 00:31:03.279 And the answer is no, there isn't. 634 00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:06.640 John, I'm gonna let you go, but I'm gonna let 635 00:31:06.680 --> 00:31:08.440 you carry on. I just want to mention to people 636 00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:10.960 out there, there's someone we interviewed on the show a 637 00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:15.319 while back, Jassic Walala Luski publish. 638 00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:15.759 Last name there. 639 00:31:16.440 --> 00:31:21.000 He uncovered a lot of unpublished information from the OSS 640 00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:25.200 years in a like museums and archives, and he wrote 641 00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:28.359 this book he's written a series, but the one I 642 00:31:28.359 --> 00:31:31.839 read his code named Spike, and it is all about 643 00:31:31.880 --> 00:31:38.960 exactly this OSS operation into Albania back in the day. 644 00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:41.880 Yeah, it's a it's a fascinating case study, and especially 645 00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:45.640 because we didn't really have a special operations unit before that, 646 00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:48.000 you know, I mean special ops really came out of 647 00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:50.839 World War Two the way it is structured today, and 648 00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:52.839 that was during World War Two, we were basically building 649 00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:57.680 the aircraft in flight in that theater and succeeded where 650 00:31:57.720 --> 00:31:59.519 we didn't succeed a lot in a lot of other places. 651 00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:02.400 You know, we was kind of tough. So the question 652 00:32:02.440 --> 00:32:04.759 I even was speaking to in Iranian this morning, and 653 00:32:04.839 --> 00:32:07.039 he was asking, like what could we do in Iran 654 00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:09.279 to actually fix this problem? Like he was asking me that, 655 00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:13.240 and I said, you need guns. And he was concerned 656 00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:15.839 because like, okay, he said, what happens if we get guns, 657 00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:17.839 we take over the government. What happens the day after? 658 00:32:18.759 --> 00:32:21.599 That's a really important question because maybe the Kurds have 659 00:32:21.640 --> 00:32:23.680 the guns, the Baluchis have the guns, the Aziris have 660 00:32:23.720 --> 00:32:25.640 the guns, which we've all just discussed. But those guys 661 00:32:25.640 --> 00:32:29.759 do not agree on everything. They have some shared interests, 662 00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:32.640 but they also have their own interests in mind, and 663 00:32:32.920 --> 00:32:35.440 they've never really wanted to be ruled by anyone else 664 00:32:35.480 --> 00:32:36.240 except themselves. 665 00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:38.839 Are they all Muslim, some. 666 00:32:38.920 --> 00:32:41.519 Are z are Astrian, some are Shia, some are Sunni, 667 00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:44.759 some are Turkic speaking, some are Persians speaking primarily, some 668 00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:48.079 are Bachtiari, some are Lure. There are some ethnic groups 669 00:32:48.119 --> 00:32:50.839 there that have existed far even before Persia was Persia, 670 00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:54.160 before there were Persians there, like an Ilam province there 671 00:32:54.200 --> 00:32:56.359 are you know, like the Elamites in the Bible, that's 672 00:32:56.400 --> 00:32:59.920 Ilam province Iran, you know, like the code of Hamarabi 673 00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:03.200 was discovered in Shusha, which was the capital of Iran 674 00:33:03.240 --> 00:33:04.640 at the time. You know, like you're talking about like 675 00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:07.400 very old ethnic groups. Like it's true that culture is 676 00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:09.799 not genetic, but it is passed down, you know, from 677 00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:12.519 person to person, generation to generation, and the people that 678 00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:14.799 have the culture look back to those things, whether that's 679 00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:16.720 right or wrong. That is who they are now, that's 680 00:33:16.759 --> 00:33:19.720 their identity. And especially up in the mountains like where 681 00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:22.279 that pilot went down. Part of the reason that pilot 682 00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:24.799 was rescued was because the population there was so against 683 00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:27.559 the government that they they created ways to slow down 684 00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:29.079 the process of the government. 685 00:33:28.759 --> 00:33:30.400 Getting around traffic jams and things. 686 00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:34.279 Yeah, exactly. And these people are like fiercely independent, So 687 00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:36.079 I mean, if you give them guns, they're probably going 688 00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:38.960 to just defend the place that they are at, right 689 00:33:39.079 --> 00:33:41.319 because especially, I mean the two times they had a 690 00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:44.440 democratic system it was destroyed. They're probably like, well, if 691 00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:46.720 we do it a third time, probably get destroyed again. 692 00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:49.039 What we should do instead is consolidate power in our 693 00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:52.519 local area and rule ourselves, which then again leads to 694 00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:56.200 that Balkanization problem, like after Tito, that is what happened 695 00:33:56.319 --> 00:33:59.960 where you had ethnic groups basically roving around and eliminating 696 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:02.640 anyone else that wasn't their ethnic group and like controlling 697 00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:03.599 the territory that they're in. 698 00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:07.400 Mamea. All right, let's get back to the revolution. I 699 00:34:07.400 --> 00:34:11.000 guess like the Islamists were the people that like came 700 00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:14.559 out on top of everything essentially, right, because it's like 701 00:34:14.599 --> 00:34:18.159 you said, most of these groups probably won't march on Tehran. 702 00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:22.320 They'll just take control of their spheres like where they're from, 703 00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:25.360 their local areas, and run it how they want to 704 00:34:25.400 --> 00:34:25.760 run it. 705 00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:29.280 And could we talk a little bit about. 706 00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:33.719 Sort of like the emergence of the fanaticism, Shia fanaticism 707 00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:37.079 that culminated in the nineteen seventy nine revolution, and you 708 00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:39.760 hear these stories about, you know, the Iranian students getting 709 00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:44.719 all glassy eyed talking about the shit about Gomani. 710 00:34:46.199 --> 00:34:48.360 What was that movement and why did it happen? 711 00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:51.280 So you remember I was talking about how this, like 712 00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:54.039 the fascism issue in Europe, was influencing the leaders the Shah. 713 00:34:54.280 --> 00:34:57.239 So the SHA's son was also doing this westernization push, 714 00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:00.000 like dramatic push where he was basically subverting the clear 715 00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:03.599 telling women that you're not only is it optional to 716 00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:06.280 wear the hitjab, you're not allowed to wear it. So 717 00:35:06.280 --> 00:35:08.280 there were some people that were already religious and now 718 00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:10.639 they're being forced to walk out in public essentially naked, 719 00:35:11.159 --> 00:35:13.639 right as far as they're concerned, and because the king 720 00:35:13.719 --> 00:35:17.079 says so, which caused a lot of discontent within the population. 721 00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:19.559 So he was over the you know, twenty years or 722 00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:21.400 so since the time he came in office in nineteen 723 00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:26.360 fifty three, he was really pushing this clerical class away 724 00:35:26.360 --> 00:35:28.920 from the country, like away from him in a way 725 00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:30.679 that made them upset. And they're thinking about like how 726 00:35:30.679 --> 00:35:33.480 do we get people to resist this. Well, we can 727 00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:35.559 tell them how terrible the shaw is, and the shaw 728 00:35:35.639 --> 00:35:38.320 is going to, you know, make women be exposed to 729 00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:40.760 the public and like take away your beliefs and destroy 730 00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:43.880 Islam and et cetera. Because they were bringing in Western clothing, 731 00:35:43.960 --> 00:35:47.039 they were banning the traditional clothing that people used to wear. 732 00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:48.559 So there's a lot of this like disruptive stuff that 733 00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:51.039 was very visible in society that a lot of different 734 00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:53.239 people didn't like. So there were some religious people, it 735 00:35:53.320 --> 00:35:55.000 was some secular people, but a lot of them just 736 00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:57.880 didn't like how the Shaw was disrupting society. And people 737 00:35:57.880 --> 00:35:59.840 were very poor. There was a lot of labor is 738 00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:03.039 shoes going on. And then amidst all of that, the 739 00:36:03.079 --> 00:36:05.920 Shah has this two thousand year anniversary of or twenty 740 00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:08.280 five hundred year anniversary of the founding of the empire 741 00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:10.960 and brings in all these foreign diplomats, spends millions of 742 00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:14.480 dollars on Champagne and caviare no Iranians except the government 743 00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:16.719 people are allowed to come to it. It's widely televised. 744 00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:19.960 They all see this. They're all very upset. In order 745 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:21.800 to counter this, there's a lot of protests against this, 746 00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:23.280 and in order to counter this, he has this thing 747 00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:26.280 called the White Revolution, which came right after it, where 748 00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:28.039 he basically tried to go out into the villages and 749 00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:30.800 towns and like turn people back toward the government. 750 00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:33.239 Is this kind of backfire got set on fire. 751 00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:38.599 That was later, that was during the revolution, and nobody 752 00:36:38.679 --> 00:36:40.719 is for sure who did that. It was very most 753 00:36:40.760 --> 00:36:43.519 likely the Muccinini Kalk, but we don't know who did 754 00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:46.079 that and probably never will because there are a lot 755 00:36:46.079 --> 00:36:48.400 of attacks at that time that just were not attributed 756 00:36:48.840 --> 00:36:51.119 and we will just never know, you know, who did it. 757 00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:55.039 And actually the most recent Iatola that was just killed 758 00:36:55.159 --> 00:36:59.199 in February, he had damage to his arm from one 759 00:36:59.239 --> 00:37:02.320 of those attacks. He was almost assassinated in the early 760 00:37:02.360 --> 00:37:04.440 eighties by we don't know who. We think it's a 761 00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:07.159 moucha Adma, We don't know. But yeah, there was a 762 00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:08.360 lot of the stuff going on. It's kind of like 763 00:37:08.360 --> 00:37:11.639 fomenting unrest. And the loudest voice at the time was 764 00:37:12.039 --> 00:37:14.760 Romani and he was able to unify a lot of 765 00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:16.719 people that might not have been as religious at first, 766 00:37:17.119 --> 00:37:18.880 but they started to get more whipped up into it 767 00:37:18.920 --> 00:37:21.199 because they saw what was going on in the streets, 768 00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:24.559 this inequality and that this unfairness to them, and they 769 00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:27.840 were saying, like, maybe we should follow this idea. And 770 00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:30.719 you know, Shia Islam is a lot about martyrdom and 771 00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:33.239 kind of like the little guy against the big guy. 772 00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:35.639 I mean, that's where the idea of Shia Islam separated 773 00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:38.039 from Sunni Islam, because the Sunnies basically killed the two 774 00:37:38.079 --> 00:37:41.320 most important figures in Shia Islam, which eventually became the 775 00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:43.280 two most important figures. And there was this kind of like, 776 00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:46.280 you know, one hundred of us against ten thousand of them, 777 00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:48.440 will just all die to the last man. That's part 778 00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:50.960 of Shia Islam. And there was a lot of that 779 00:37:51.039 --> 00:37:53.920 rhetoric getting tossed around. And the best way to access 780 00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:56.760 people's minds in Iran at the time, because there's no internet, 781 00:37:56.800 --> 00:37:59.079 there's no cell phones, right, the best way to access 782 00:37:59.079 --> 00:38:02.320 people is through the Friday prayer at the pulpit because 783 00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:04.639 that's when everybody is in the same room together hearing 784 00:38:04.760 --> 00:38:07.199 the same thing. And if you're coordinating the messages at 785 00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:10.239 all those Friday prayers, now across the entire country, everyone's 786 00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:12.880 hearing the exact same message every Friday. And this is 787 00:38:12.920 --> 00:38:16.119 a lot of what pushed the religious fervor into high gear, 788 00:38:16.519 --> 00:38:18.840 because not only were they upset and hearing similar stuff, 789 00:38:18.840 --> 00:38:21.360 they're hearing the exact same message. So if I traveled 790 00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:23.159 like eight hundred miles, you would also know in that 791 00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:26.599 same village eight or miles away what I heard in Tehran. Right, 792 00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:29.440 So this is like really unifying force going on. And 793 00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:31.880 at the same time, you had people at universities in 794 00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:34.440 France to the United States and Britain and some other 795 00:38:34.480 --> 00:38:38.239 places that were Iranian students that were very intellectual, this 796 00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:42.199 intellectual group that was ostracized from the Shah, and they 797 00:38:42.199 --> 00:38:44.400 were thinking about, like how do we fix this problem. 798 00:38:44.599 --> 00:38:48.000 Like Mustafa Chamran, for example, was at University Berkeley in 799 00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:52.639 California in the nineteen seventies. He founded a mall in Lebanon. 800 00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:56.440 Amal became Hesbala eventually has Bulah later on. He was 801 00:38:56.440 --> 00:38:57.880 the founder of that and he actually came up with 802 00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:00.039 that idea with a student, an Iranian student group in 803 00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:02.960 nineteen seventy three in Berkeley. And you had a lot 804 00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:04.719 of the stuff going on in the early nineteen seventies. 805 00:39:04.719 --> 00:39:06.559 A lot of them were listening to Ali Shariati, which 806 00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:08.960 is the guy that I mentioned earlier. He was in France. 807 00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:11.159 He died of a very mysterious heart attack in his 808 00:39:11.199 --> 00:39:14.920 early thirties. And he had been writing all these tracks 809 00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:17.880 about how to resist the Shaw and why the Shaw 810 00:39:17.960 --> 00:39:20.519 was illegitimate, and why there should be an Islamic country, 811 00:39:20.840 --> 00:39:22.440 you know, and all this stuff and all of this 812 00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:25.159 stuff is kind of like floating around and Ayatola Hamani 813 00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:28.599 brought all together. It kind of said follow me, and 814 00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:30.199 that's and a lot of people did that. They said, 815 00:39:30.199 --> 00:39:32.000 we will do that because there are various things that 816 00:39:32.039 --> 00:39:34.440 bother us. It seems like, you know what you're talking about. 817 00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:36.679 And that's kind of how that unification happened over about 818 00:39:36.679 --> 00:39:37.800 an eight to ten year period. 819 00:39:38.199 --> 00:39:40.360 So, John, let me ask you. That White revolution that 820 00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:42.800 Shaw tried to pull off, it did not. It went nowhere. 821 00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:46.000 Yeah, so it affected some areas, but some areas it 822 00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:48.639 made them even more upset because basically, like if you 823 00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:50.320 see some of the imagery from it or videos, you'll 824 00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:53.800 see like women dressed up in like really western military clothing, 825 00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:56.159 like marching around their village with guns and stuff. And 826 00:39:56.840 --> 00:39:59.400 people saw that like, what, this is not Persian, this 827 00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:01.719 is not Iran, this is the West. And in fact, 828 00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:05.679 there are two people, Ali Ahmad and Ali Shariati who 829 00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:08.679 I mentioned that used this term garb zadaghi, which means 830 00:40:08.679 --> 00:40:13.440 West toxification, in other words, being drunk on westernness. And 831 00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:15.960 this was the thing that that Aatola kept talking about, 832 00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:19.280 like these people are just drinking the water of the 833 00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:22.760 West and like getting you know, corrupted by these Western 834 00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:28.760 ideas and disgusting. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And actually Ramani the 835 00:40:28.760 --> 00:40:32.599 second one during nineteen eighty eight, when they were deciding 836 00:40:32.599 --> 00:40:35.079 to end the war, he said, I'm drinking from the 837 00:40:35.079 --> 00:40:38.599 poison chalice to accept this peace agreement. And that was 838 00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:40.960 a hearkening back to that idea about like I'm drinking 839 00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:43.719 this Western poison, you know, right, because I'm making a deal, 840 00:40:44.360 --> 00:40:47.320 right exactly. So even though it was with Saddam and 841 00:40:47.360 --> 00:40:49.280 not with the West, but it was because the West 842 00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:52.880 had supported Saddam Wemya. 843 00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:57.280 All right, So nineteen eighty nineteen seventy nine happens, the revolution, 844 00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:02.199 the Shaw's gone, you know, the Islamic Republic is born. 845 00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:06.719 They CIA in the United States basically loses all of 846 00:41:06.760 --> 00:41:10.000 its intelligence assets inside of the country more or less. 847 00:41:10.119 --> 00:41:13.039 Yeah, So what happened is the students there's this, remember 848 00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:15.000 I mentioned these student groups. There was one student group 849 00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:17.599 in Iran called the Imam's Line or students for the 850 00:41:17.599 --> 00:41:20.800 Imam's Line. They were not connected to Hamania at that point. 851 00:41:21.320 --> 00:41:23.960 They stormed the embassy actually twice. They happened earlier in 852 00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:26.800 the year that was stopped. They realized that they could 853 00:41:26.840 --> 00:41:29.079 get through, so they did it again and actually succeeded 854 00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:31.559 the second time, taking over the embassy. And when they 855 00:41:31.559 --> 00:41:33.639 got in there, they found all these documents in a 856 00:41:33.639 --> 00:41:37.719 bunch of filing cabinets that had intel reports and sources 857 00:41:37.719 --> 00:41:41.079 written on them about like who said what, and basically 858 00:41:41.639 --> 00:41:43.480 the people the Americans in there try to shred a 859 00:41:43.480 --> 00:41:45.880 lot of this stuff, but the Iranians actually pieced it 860 00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:47.599 back together, and they were like these shredded pieces of 861 00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:48.800 paper glued back together. 862 00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:51.599 I'm assuming most people watch the movie Argo. There's a 863 00:41:51.639 --> 00:41:53.639 scene in that when they take over the embassy and 864 00:41:53.679 --> 00:41:56.639 they're putting together shredded pieces of paper. 865 00:41:56.880 --> 00:42:00.639 That was real. Yeah, yeah, And that was actually why 866 00:42:00.679 --> 00:42:04.079 now we used like pulverized paper instead of just shredding straight. 867 00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:07.039 That came from that situation. And also there are anti 868 00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:09.719 Terrorism Force protection or AATFP that we have in the 869 00:42:09.719 --> 00:42:13.719 military and net embassies also came from Iran related terrorist 870 00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:16.800 activities in Lebanon. So both of those were kind of 871 00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:19.199 like new moments for us or turning points for us 872 00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:21.039 in the intelligence community. W we were like, we can't 873 00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:23.079 just operate with autonomy and countries anymore. We have to 874 00:42:23.079 --> 00:42:25.760 come up with ways to protect sources, methods and the 875 00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:29.639 intelligence we collected. And that came out of that embassy situation. 876 00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:32.519 And when they took over the embassy, Kamani at first 877 00:42:32.559 --> 00:42:34.320 didn't think it was a good idea. He thought that 878 00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:36.800 would actually disrupt the revolution, but then he saw the 879 00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:38.719 media attention they were getting and he reached out to 880 00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:40.679 them and said, you guys are on board with us 881 00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:43.239 now and actually supported them. So a lot of people 882 00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:45.280 in the West think that like that was a Iatola 883 00:42:45.320 --> 00:42:47.679 sponsored thing, Like it wasn't. It was actually organic. And 884 00:42:47.719 --> 00:42:49.119 then he took it over and made it look like 885 00:42:49.159 --> 00:42:53.199 it was his idea and it wasn't. And Mahmud Amani 886 00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:56.159 Najad was at that embassy takeover, by the way, which 887 00:42:56.159 --> 00:42:57.960 is a very important thing to keep in mind about 888 00:42:57.960 --> 00:42:59.920 now when Israel is trying to make Amai Najad and 889 00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:02.239 of the country again, like that dude was, Yeah, that 890 00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:08.360 dude was there, right, So yeah, we lost control at 891 00:43:08.360 --> 00:43:11.119 that time because at the time, our liaison partner in 892 00:43:11.480 --> 00:43:15.280 Iran was the Savak, which was the SHA's secret intelligence 893 00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:18.480 service that we helped build. All those Savak guys were 894 00:43:18.519 --> 00:43:22.119 either executed, exiled, or turned and worked to train the 895 00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:26.119 new government's intelligence apparatus. So we completely lost control over 896 00:43:26.159 --> 00:43:29.119 everything going on in Iran at the time. Part that 897 00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:31.760 actually led to why Saddam Hussein decided to invade in 898 00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:35.119 nineteen eighty because you know, just a few months before 899 00:43:35.559 --> 00:43:37.559 the country was very powerful, it was a regional actor, 900 00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:40.840 and now they have no intelligence service, they have a 901 00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:43.440 disarrayed military, their weapons just kind of floating around like 902 00:43:43.480 --> 00:43:46.360 Libya for a few months, and Saddam said like, look, 903 00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:49.400 I've had this issue over this waterway with the Shah 904 00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:52.320 for a long time. This is my chance to win 905 00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:54.199 that conflict with the Shah. The Shah is gone because 906 00:43:54.199 --> 00:43:56.360 the Shaw was still alive. If you remember when this 907 00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:58.079 was going on, he didn't die yet. He was he 908 00:43:58.159 --> 00:44:00.639 was almost dead, but we didn't die yet. But he's 909 00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:03.280 so in Saddam's mind like this wasn't a revolution of 910 00:44:03.280 --> 00:44:05.039 a new government. This was just like the Shaw is 911 00:44:05.079 --> 00:44:09.519 absent and so he invaded the country, and that invasion 912 00:44:09.599 --> 00:44:13.480 really galvanized the Islamist set because now it's like Sunni 913 00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:17.039 Islam against Shia Islam, the story of Ali and Hussein 914 00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:20.400 against the evil Sunnis. That's exactly how it was framed. 915 00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:22.639 And that's suddenly, like you mentioned the glassy eyed talk 916 00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:26.000 about the Ayatola, that's where that started immediately because they 917 00:44:26.039 --> 00:44:29.159 were like, now we have one enemy and it's Saddam Husaying, 918 00:44:29.239 --> 00:44:30.000 it's the Sunnis. 919 00:44:31.639 --> 00:44:37.440 So that kind of helped, you know, essentially completely set 920 00:44:37.519 --> 00:44:42.440 in the Islamic Republic's power over the country. Right, you 921 00:44:42.440 --> 00:44:44.519 have a common enemy, you know, even. 922 00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:46.920 If really that Saddam Hussein invasion is what made the 923 00:44:46.920 --> 00:44:50.480 revolution real. Up to that point, it was just a 924 00:44:50.519 --> 00:44:54.239 disarray of people, different groups against the Shah for various reasons. 925 00:44:54.280 --> 00:44:57.199 There was no real unification that and I've said this before. 926 00:44:57.199 --> 00:44:59.440 There were eight different major groups that were against the 927 00:44:59.480 --> 00:45:02.400 Shah that participated in the revolution. The Islamists were not 928 00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:06.599 like the the one guaranteed to make it. But once 929 00:45:07.400 --> 00:45:10.480 they crossed, once the Iraqis crossed into Iran, like that 930 00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:13.800 was it. It was really that invasion that kicked off the 931 00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:17.039 cementing of what we have now as the Islamic Republic, 932 00:45:18.519 --> 00:45:18.840 and that. 933 00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:22.719 Brought on like, as I recall, there were like human 934 00:45:22.760 --> 00:45:26.760 wave attacks. They even used children. Suicide bombings became a thing. 935 00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:29.440 Yeah, yeah, I mean it's because they were running out 936 00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:31.559 of conventional assets to use. Againt Saddam, I mean, Saddam 937 00:45:31.639 --> 00:45:33.960 was and if you read about the Iran Iraq War, 938 00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:37.039 it was the longest conventional war in the world in 939 00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:40.639 the twentieth century. And somebody argued with me once that 940 00:45:40.639 --> 00:45:42.679 there was a Japanese conflict with China that was longer, 941 00:45:42.679 --> 00:45:45.599 but it's actually the same, But it was the longest 942 00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:50.280 in the world. In the first two years Iraq was winning, 943 00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:54.679 Iran turned the tables, started winning and pushed the Iraqis 944 00:45:54.679 --> 00:45:57.480 out of Iran completely back into Iraq. And if you 945 00:45:57.519 --> 00:46:00.280 do like some military strategic analysis of this, that was 946 00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:02.880 the moment that Iran should have just declared victory and stopped. 947 00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:06.480 But they got a taste of victory and kept going. 948 00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:08.880 And this was the big problem because suddenly that's when 949 00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:11.400 the war became a war of attrition because both sides 950 00:46:11.440 --> 00:46:13.519 couldn't advance anymore. Now it became like you know, the 951 00:46:13.519 --> 00:46:15.440 Eastern Front or the Western Front and World War Two. 952 00:46:15.639 --> 00:46:18.559 These guys are just stuck in trenches. Well, the Iranians 953 00:46:18.559 --> 00:46:22.199 don't have a ton of equipment and training. They do, 954 00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:23.320 but they don't know how to use it. They don't 955 00:46:23.320 --> 00:46:25.039 how to use the equipment. They have a Phantom aircraft 956 00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:26.920 that the US sent them, they have Hawk radar systems. 957 00:46:26.920 --> 00:46:28.000 They have all this stuff, but they don't know how 958 00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:29.559 to use it very well. Because there's a revolution and 959 00:46:29.599 --> 00:46:32.039 all the all the army people left, so they said, well, 960 00:46:32.039 --> 00:46:33.280 what else do we have. We have guys in the 961 00:46:33.280 --> 00:46:36.880 ground that are willing to fight, send them and they did. 962 00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:39.079 And like you said, human waves, you had kids like 963 00:46:39.159 --> 00:46:42.199 running over bodies because there were huge minefields and the 964 00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:44.119 only way to clear the mindfields was to send people 965 00:46:44.119 --> 00:46:46.920 over them to blow up to clear them with their bodies. 966 00:46:47.480 --> 00:46:50.760 So you'd have kids, like kids, young kids running over 967 00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:53.000 the field blowing up and then guys behind them seeing 968 00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:56.599 that happening and continuing on, which is wild to us. 969 00:46:56.599 --> 00:46:58.519 But if you believe in what that is, you're going 970 00:46:58.599 --> 00:47:00.559 to do it. You know, that's the way the human 971 00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:02.360 brain works. Like, if you believe in this thing, I 972 00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:04.239 mean that we do that in the military, like in 973 00:47:04.320 --> 00:47:07.519 fighting Japan and the Battle of Pelulu, guys were fighting 974 00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:09.760 with Niaves because they ran out of bullets. You know, 975 00:47:09.960 --> 00:47:13.000 like that's wild and it takes a lot of something 976 00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:15.159 in your brain to be able to do that, and 977 00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:16.679 those guys believed in it at that time. 978 00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:20.559 So in couple go ahead. 979 00:47:20.679 --> 00:47:22.679 Well, I was just going to say, where did the 980 00:47:23.079 --> 00:47:26.480 United States fall on this conflict, because I recall reading 981 00:47:26.559 --> 00:47:28.840 that we kind of backed both sides, like wouldn't it 982 00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:31.000 be a great thing if they both lost? 983 00:47:31.920 --> 00:47:33.559 Yes, what the US was looking at this from a 984 00:47:33.599 --> 00:47:36.440 Cold War angle and seeing that Saddam Hussein had primarily 985 00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:38.599 been funded by the Soviets, and actually in the seventies, 986 00:47:38.840 --> 00:47:43.000 Egypt suddenly gained access to a choice do we allow 987 00:47:43.159 --> 00:47:47.480 primarily US weapons or Soviet weapons in our military infrastructure? 988 00:47:47.480 --> 00:47:50.159 And the US convinced Egypt, and that's why we got 989 00:47:50.159 --> 00:47:52.400 Egypt to agree to recognize Israel. That had a lot 990 00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:54.880 to do with it, or like this triangular agreement going 991 00:47:54.920 --> 00:47:58.239 on where so suddenly now we got Egypt. The other 992 00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:01.840 problem is Libya as far as Soviet Union's concerned, and Iraq. 993 00:48:02.119 --> 00:48:04.239 Iraq had the fifth largest military on the planet at 994 00:48:04.239 --> 00:48:07.880 the time, primarily sourced with Soviet assets. So the way 995 00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:09.519 the US saw this, and if you look a little 996 00:48:09.559 --> 00:48:12.519 bit wider Afghanistan on the east side, the Soviets invaded 997 00:48:12.559 --> 00:48:16.119 Afghanistan because the monarch in Afghanistan was kicked out and 998 00:48:16.159 --> 00:48:18.840 replaced with the communist leader. The Russian supported that communist leader, 999 00:48:18.880 --> 00:48:21.840 they invaded Afghanistan. So the war in Afghanistan is going 1000 00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:23.639 on at the exact same time as the Iran Iraq 1001 00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:25.199 war is going on. So the US is seeing this 1002 00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:28.000 from a Cold War perspective that if we can disrupt 1003 00:48:28.039 --> 00:48:31.360 the Soviets and keep them bogged down like Ukraine. Now, 1004 00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:35.000 if we can bleed them but not win, this is 1005 00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:37.360 a victory. And this was the US strategy in the 1006 00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:39.280 Ran Iraq war, and also the British strategy and the 1007 00:48:39.320 --> 00:48:42.920 French strategy was to arm both sides, but not so 1008 00:48:43.119 --> 00:48:45.480 much that they would win. And remember I told you 1009 00:48:45.719 --> 00:48:48.599 the first two years Iraq was winning and then Iran 1010 00:48:48.639 --> 00:48:51.679 pushed them in. Part of the reason Iran continued going 1011 00:48:51.760 --> 00:48:53.960 is because they thought that with the weapons they were 1012 00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:57.480 getting clandestinely, they'd be able to win. And that was 1013 00:48:57.480 --> 00:48:59.599 the plan on our side, was to make them think that, 1014 00:48:59.639 --> 00:49:01.760 even though it wasn't true. So there was this war 1015 00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:05.000 of attrition that started that we wanted, the US wanted 1016 00:49:05.159 --> 00:49:07.320 Iran in Iraq to continue fighting each other to the 1017 00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:10.599 last man. That was the whole goal. And so from 1018 00:49:10.679 --> 00:49:13.079 nineteen eighty three to nineteen eighty eight, that last five 1019 00:49:13.159 --> 00:49:15.119 years of the war, that is what happened. You had 1020 00:49:15.159 --> 00:49:17.800 this massive war of attrition of guys just murdering each other. 1021 00:49:18.119 --> 00:49:21.599 Whether that's civilians, soldiers, does not matter. They were shooting 1022 00:49:22.599 --> 00:49:25.440 ballistic missiles at cities. You had one battle called the 1023 00:49:25.440 --> 00:49:27.679 War of the Cities because they were basically setting up 1024 00:49:27.760 --> 00:49:30.400 launchpads inside of dense urban centers on both sides of 1025 00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:33.760 the border and just firing ballistic missiles into the cities 1026 00:49:33.800 --> 00:49:34.880 at each other for days. 1027 00:49:34.880 --> 00:49:36.199 O Bird was in one of those cities. 1028 00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:40.119 You remember that story, Yeah, yeah, yeah, And that was 1029 00:49:40.119 --> 00:49:42.480 the strategy was just destroy each other. And the US said, 1030 00:49:42.519 --> 00:49:44.599 that's a great thing. We'll support that. So you had 1031 00:49:44.599 --> 00:49:47.719 the US supporting Saddam Hussein on one side and also 1032 00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:51.599 supporting Iran on the other side through israel intermediaries who 1033 00:49:52.039 --> 00:49:54.320 quote unquote did not work for the government. But you know, 1034 00:49:54.440 --> 00:49:57.400 that's how things work in the Middle East. Everything is connected, 1035 00:49:57.440 --> 00:50:00.400 and the US did not want Iran to win because 1036 00:50:00.440 --> 00:50:02.239 of the Russians. They did not want the Russians to 1037 00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:05.199 win essentially, and this was kind of a test of 1038 00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:07.239 you know, who is stronger in the Middle East, Russia 1039 00:50:07.360 --> 00:50:10.039 or the United States. And if you remember we talked 1040 00:50:10.039 --> 00:50:13.280 about the Suez Crisis nineteen fifty six when France and 1041 00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:17.719 Britain supported Israel into Egypt. Well, that was a disaster 1042 00:50:17.840 --> 00:50:20.280 for Britain and France, and that was the end of 1043 00:50:20.280 --> 00:50:22.519 British and French influence in the Middle East. And that 1044 00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:24.360 was the beginning of US and Russian influence in the 1045 00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:27.400 Middle East. So from nineteen fifty six through the eighties, 1046 00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:30.280 you see this like dramatic increase in US and Russian 1047 00:50:30.920 --> 00:50:33.440 contest in the Middle East between which partner is going 1048 00:50:33.480 --> 00:50:36.400 to work with which power. And so that's part of 1049 00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:38.840 what the Iran Iraq War was, was the US exploiting 1050 00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:41.920 that contest to keep both of these countries fighting each 1051 00:50:41.920 --> 00:50:44.360 other until nineteen eighty eight. Because remember in nineteen eighty eight, 1052 00:50:44.360 --> 00:50:48.599 that's when Perestroika glasnost which was two policies in Russia 1053 00:50:48.639 --> 00:50:51.639 about restructuring and changing the economy and like becoming part 1054 00:50:51.679 --> 00:50:53.280 of the Western world. And that led to the wall 1055 00:50:53.320 --> 00:50:55.360 coming down and all that, and especially the failure in 1056 00:50:55.400 --> 00:50:57.400 Afghanistan when they had to retreat out of Afghanistan in 1057 00:50:57.440 --> 00:51:00.199 nineteen eighty nine. All that was happening at the same time. 1058 00:51:00.199 --> 00:51:01.320 So you have to look at it in that context 1059 00:51:01.360 --> 00:51:03.039 of like, the US was seeing this as a piece 1060 00:51:03.400 --> 00:51:06.039 in a larger play against the Soviets. 1061 00:51:07.400 --> 00:51:09.159 And I know this is like and that's known as 1062 00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:11.039 a part of it's known as I rank Contra. It's 1063 00:51:11.039 --> 00:51:11.360 just like the. 1064 00:51:11.480 --> 00:51:12.239 Yeah, that's what I was. 1065 00:51:12.280 --> 00:51:14.639 That's exactly where I was going with that. That's a 1066 00:51:14.639 --> 00:51:17.039 whole other can of worms. But I think since we're 1067 00:51:17.079 --> 00:51:19.360 into the nineteen eighties we should probably touch upon that. 1068 00:51:19.719 --> 00:51:20.119 Yeah. 1069 00:51:20.199 --> 00:51:23.039 Yeah, So think about the Iran Contra as just a 1070 00:51:23.119 --> 00:51:25.440 larger zooming out of the same exact contest between the 1071 00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:28.480 Soviets and the United States, because the Contra rebels were 1072 00:51:28.519 --> 00:51:32.079 CIA rebels in Nicaragua that were fighting against the actual 1073 00:51:32.280 --> 00:51:34.800 legitimate government, although we didn't think it was legitimate in 1074 00:51:34.880 --> 00:51:41.159 Nicaragua called the Sandinistas. The Sandinistas were socialists, some would 1075 00:51:41.199 --> 00:51:43.599 call them, or you know, maybe let worse than that, 1076 00:51:43.960 --> 00:51:46.400 they were supported by the Soviets. So the US was 1077 00:51:46.440 --> 00:51:49.199 looking at this as an opportunity to crush a Russian 1078 00:51:49.239 --> 00:51:52.320 interest in Central America while also crushing a Russian interest 1079 00:51:52.519 --> 00:51:54.760 in the Middle East. And so what was going on here. 1080 00:51:54.800 --> 00:51:58.000 You had a group of folks in the National Security Council, 1081 00:51:58.079 --> 00:52:00.760 including all over North, who's a marine that active duty 1082 00:52:00.760 --> 00:52:02.760 at the time, that came up with this idea. They 1083 00:52:02.840 --> 00:52:07.400 knew Reagan wouldn't approve it, so they didn't even ask it. Yeah, 1084 00:52:07.559 --> 00:52:10.039 and so what they're basically doing was they can't pay 1085 00:52:10.079 --> 00:52:12.239 for weapons in Iran because of the laws that happened 1086 00:52:12.280 --> 00:52:14.920 after the hostage crisis. So they said, well, how do 1087 00:52:14.960 --> 00:52:17.760 we pay for it anyway, Well, we can use proceeds 1088 00:52:17.760 --> 00:52:21.360 from this other clandestine activity to pay for weapons. And 1089 00:52:21.440 --> 00:52:24.039 actually this this whole thing went through I said earlier Israel. 1090 00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:26.920 But there were a lot of intermediaries involved, including folks 1091 00:52:26.960 --> 00:52:30.159 in Lebanon and Hezbolah. And actually it was a Hezbola 1092 00:52:30.519 --> 00:52:33.559 guy that made this public, that published it in a 1093 00:52:33.599 --> 00:52:36.599 newspaper because he was in a set about yes, exactly, 1094 00:52:36.639 --> 00:52:39.199 because they were upset about the diversion of assets that 1095 00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:42.000 they thought they should have because we were pushing all 1096 00:52:42.039 --> 00:52:43.880 these weapons through Lebanon. They were fighting a war in 1097 00:52:43.960 --> 00:52:46.000 Lebanon against the Syrians and the Israelis, and they're like, hey, 1098 00:52:46.039 --> 00:52:47.559 we need weapons too, and the US was like, no, 1099 00:52:47.599 --> 00:52:49.679 we have something more important Iran going on right now, 1100 00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:51.599 and he said, okay, then we're going to publish it, 1101 00:52:52.119 --> 00:52:54.320 and they did, and that's actually how the Iran contra 1102 00:52:54.360 --> 00:52:55.519 affair became public. 1103 00:52:57.480 --> 00:52:59.440 And then you had the plane go down in Nicaragua, 1104 00:52:59.519 --> 00:53:03.159 which was kind of like by now it's splashed on 1105 00:53:03.320 --> 00:53:06.719 United States newspapers because just for folks out there as 1106 00:53:06.760 --> 00:53:11.519 a CIA aircraft and one of their paramilitary guys parachuted 1107 00:53:11.559 --> 00:53:12.519 down and was captured. 1108 00:53:14.159 --> 00:53:16.440 Yep. And we also had Operation Eagle Claw around the 1109 00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:19.239 same time nineteen eighty at Desert One, when I believe 1110 00:53:19.239 --> 00:53:21.400 it was eighteen Americans were killed in the desert trying 1111 00:53:21.400 --> 00:53:23.280 to rescue the American hostages. So there's a lot of 1112 00:53:23.360 --> 00:53:26.320 US activity going on over there trying to kind of 1113 00:53:26.320 --> 00:53:28.239 take control of the situation, and we never quite got 1114 00:53:28.239 --> 00:53:30.920 our hands around it. And that's the reason we have 1115 00:53:31.039 --> 00:53:35.000 JASOK today. It's because of Operation Eagle Claw, where we realized, like, hey, 1116 00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:37.039 we don't work together very well in something like this 1117 00:53:37.199 --> 00:53:40.239 very specialized problem. We need to have a unified command 1118 00:53:40.519 --> 00:53:45.519 that can do this kind of national level activity. 1119 00:53:45.599 --> 00:53:47.639 All right, let's talk a little bit about the proxy. 1120 00:53:47.639 --> 00:53:49.400 As you mentioned a little bit about Hesibel and stuff 1121 00:53:49.400 --> 00:53:52.360 like that. Hasbal obviously came up starting in nineteen eighty 1122 00:53:52.360 --> 00:53:56.039 two right during the war, you know, in high splod 1123 00:53:56.079 --> 00:54:00.199 being you know, Rand's chief proxy essentially close. 1124 00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:02.440 Yes, is a lot more nuanced than a lot of 1125 00:54:02.440 --> 00:54:06.599 people understand. I mentioned Mustafa Chamaran founding Amal in Lebanon 1126 00:54:06.599 --> 00:54:07.760 in nineteen seventy five. 1127 00:54:08.239 --> 00:54:10.880 In by like going to school in Berkeley, banging co 1128 00:54:11.119 --> 00:54:12.679 Ed's in California. 1129 00:54:12.719 --> 00:54:13.239 Oh for sure. 1130 00:54:13.400 --> 00:54:15.760 You know what, I got a sick idea, dude, that's 1131 00:54:15.800 --> 00:54:17.039 fucking star fuckings. 1132 00:54:17.519 --> 00:54:19.079 Yeah, yeah, let's get some guns. 1133 00:54:19.719 --> 00:54:19.920 Yeah. 1134 00:54:19.960 --> 00:54:22.599 He went to Lebanon, and uh, there's actually a lot 1135 00:54:22.639 --> 00:54:25.679 of connected history between Lebanon and Iran, like culturally because 1136 00:54:25.840 --> 00:54:28.360 the Persian Empire used to rule over Lebanon. So there's 1137 00:54:28.360 --> 00:54:31.360 a lot of connection there, right, especially in Jubble Ali 1138 00:54:31.400 --> 00:54:34.119 and Abu Musa, which is a mountain in the south 1139 00:54:34.159 --> 00:54:37.400 of Lebanon. There's a lot of Shia clerics that are 1140 00:54:37.400 --> 00:54:40.760 Iranian that have lived for centuries in South Lebanon. So 1141 00:54:40.800 --> 00:54:42.800 there's already like this deep, deep connection going on there. 1142 00:54:43.280 --> 00:54:48.079 And you remember Israel had been harassing Lebanese territory since 1143 00:54:48.119 --> 00:54:50.800 nineteen seventy eight. Really nineteen seventy five was the first incursion. 1144 00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:53.199 We also had Operation Blue Bat in nineteen fifty eight 1145 00:54:53.199 --> 00:54:58.360 when President I think it was Johnson kimber Wish president, 1146 00:54:58.480 --> 00:55:01.360 but we the United States invaded lebanon nineteen fifty eight. 1147 00:55:01.400 --> 00:55:03.800 We sent a bunch of Marines in there to stabilize 1148 00:55:03.800 --> 00:55:08.199 the Christian leadership against Was that Eisenhower, I guess it 1149 00:55:08.239 --> 00:55:12.159 was Eisenhower, Yeah, before Kennedy. Yep. Yes, that was Operation 1150 00:55:12.239 --> 00:55:15.039 Blue Bat. Very interesting thing we don't really talk about. 1151 00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:17.079 So there's been a lot of Israeli and US interests. 1152 00:55:17.039 --> 00:55:19.079 Remember I said after nineteen fifty six, Britain and France 1153 00:55:19.079 --> 00:55:21.400 pulled back and the US came in. That was the 1154 00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:23.360 US coming in nineteen fifty eight, Operations Bran. 1155 00:55:23.519 --> 00:55:27.400 If France leave in the fifties, the US and the 1156 00:55:27.400 --> 00:55:30.760 Soviet Union Russia are like trying to fill the vacuum essentially. 1157 00:55:30.519 --> 00:55:33.559 Yep, yep. And remember the Russians are supporting Syria. The 1158 00:55:33.760 --> 00:55:37.039 Assad family, which just had a coup took over the country. 1159 00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:39.760 In that period of time, so the Soviets are backing Syria, 1160 00:55:39.800 --> 00:55:42.480 the US is backing Israel. It's only a matter of 1161 00:55:42.519 --> 00:55:45.880 time before there is a conflict or you know, a clash. 1162 00:55:45.639 --> 00:55:48.639 And we had already co opted Jordan. There's something called 1163 00:55:48.679 --> 00:55:50.960 No Beef, which was the name of the covert operation 1164 00:55:51.079 --> 00:55:54.559 to recruit the king to become a US asset. That's 1165 00:55:54.559 --> 00:55:56.519 why the king's son is a US citizen. Has a 1166 00:55:56.519 --> 00:55:58.960 whole other story, but that was happening at the same time. 1167 00:55:59.159 --> 00:56:01.920 So the US had already bought Jordan. We were working 1168 00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:05.039 on Israel. Soviets are working on Syria. And there's these 1169 00:56:05.079 --> 00:56:07.320 Lebanese people who are like, stay out of my country 1170 00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:11.639 to everybody. Israel kept coming in nineteen seventy five, nineteen 1171 00:56:11.679 --> 00:56:14.800 seventy eight, the PLO was there. Israel invaded nineteen eighty 1172 00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:16.880 two to come after the PLO. The PLO were gone 1173 00:56:16.880 --> 00:56:20.079 within three months September is when they left to Triple 1174 00:56:20.360 --> 00:56:24.360 or to Tunis. They were gone in Algeria as well, 1175 00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:27.199 and Israel State. 1176 00:56:28.000 --> 00:56:29.480 And they accomplished. 1177 00:56:30.360 --> 00:56:32.760 They stayed. So they actually went up to the Latani River, 1178 00:56:32.800 --> 00:56:35.800 which sounds familiar, and then Ariel Sharon said, well, if 1179 00:56:35.840 --> 00:56:38.440 we've gone this far, we should keep going, and the 1180 00:56:38.480 --> 00:56:41.079 Israeli government said, no, you shouldn't, and he said, well, 1181 00:56:41.119 --> 00:56:44.199 who's in Lebanon, me, not you, And they actually kept 1182 00:56:44.199 --> 00:56:45.960 going up to be Root, and that's how they got 1183 00:56:45.960 --> 00:56:48.360 into Bay Route. So you can imagine some people that 1184 00:56:48.440 --> 00:56:51.039 were pretty upset that this was going on, and they 1185 00:56:51.039 --> 00:56:54.440 saw this as an existential threat to their existence and 1186 00:56:54.519 --> 00:56:56.639 other things as well. And there were a lot of 1187 00:56:56.679 --> 00:56:59.960 different groups that resisted the Israeli occupation, which by the way, 1188 00:57:00.119 --> 00:57:03.480 lasted till the year two thousand, eighteen years. So in 1189 00:57:03.519 --> 00:57:07.079 those early years, one group broke off from Amal because 1190 00:57:07.119 --> 00:57:09.679 Amal was not as violent as some of the people 1191 00:57:09.719 --> 00:57:12.280 wanted them to be. Amal was the main resistance force 1192 00:57:12.360 --> 00:57:15.239 down there, led by Nabi Berry, who was actually still 1193 00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:18.599 the Speaker of Parliament in Lebanon today. This group, called 1194 00:57:18.639 --> 00:57:21.840 Islamic Amal broke off that contributed to what became Hesbala. 1195 00:57:21.880 --> 00:57:23.760 He had another group called Islamic Jihad, which was led 1196 00:57:23.760 --> 00:57:26.440 by Imad Mugnia, who the US and Israel killed in 1197 00:57:26.480 --> 00:57:30.000 Syria a few years ago. These different groups were all separate. 1198 00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:32.559 They were not one group, but they had one common enemy, 1199 00:57:32.559 --> 00:57:35.679 which again familiar refrained. They had a common enemy. They 1200 00:57:35.719 --> 00:57:40.920 banded together. This guy named Musawi led them. Musawi was 1201 00:57:40.920 --> 00:57:42.880 assassinated by Israel in nineteen ninety one, by the way, 1202 00:57:42.880 --> 00:57:46.440 and that's why Hassan Nosrola took over Hesbula. So Musawi 1203 00:57:46.480 --> 00:57:50.840 was leading Hasbola his little organization, which wasn't called Habala yet, 1204 00:57:51.800 --> 00:57:53.920 they didn't really have a name. The Syrians came in 1205 00:57:53.960 --> 00:57:55.639 and they said, hey, we noticed that you guys are 1206 00:57:55.679 --> 00:57:57.960 fighting Israel. We're fighting Israel too, because remember the Syrians 1207 00:57:57.960 --> 00:58:02.519 also invaded Lebanon. Syrian said we will back you. And 1208 00:58:02.559 --> 00:58:04.880 then the multinational force came in there to try to 1209 00:58:04.880 --> 00:58:08.880 stabilize the country nineteen eighty two. Multinational force was the US, France. 1210 00:58:09.719 --> 00:58:12.760 You had some Italians there, and it was the French 1211 00:58:12.760 --> 00:58:16.000 embassy that was actually hit first, the French barracks. They 1212 00:58:16.039 --> 00:58:18.440 also tried to blow up the Italian barracks, but no 1213 00:58:18.480 --> 00:58:20.719 Italians were actually sleeping in the barracks that were sleeping outside, 1214 00:58:20.719 --> 00:58:23.079 so there was no damage there. And they struck the US, 1215 00:58:23.119 --> 00:58:26.880 the CIA compound and the US embassy. This was all 1216 00:58:26.920 --> 00:58:29.360 in opposition to the multinational force that came in there 1217 00:58:29.400 --> 00:58:33.719 to support Israel inside of Lebanon. So Israel asked for 1218 00:58:33.719 --> 00:58:36.519 our help to come in and support their invasion of Lebanon. 1219 00:58:37.280 --> 00:58:39.079 This is why a lot of Shia and Lebanon are 1220 00:58:39.079 --> 00:58:41.559 opposed to the in Lebanon because they see it as 1221 00:58:41.599 --> 00:58:45.239 the US came in there and helped Israel occupy their land. Right, 1222 00:58:45.599 --> 00:58:47.960 and the malt National Force did leave after the US 1223 00:58:48.000 --> 00:58:51.400 embassy bombing nineteen eighty three October. The US was there 1224 00:58:51.400 --> 00:58:54.159 for about a year, but in that period of time 1225 00:58:54.599 --> 00:58:58.280 they felt the US was on Israel side. So they said, well, 1226 00:58:58.320 --> 00:59:01.519 we have one common enemy is the United States. The 1227 00:59:01.639 --> 00:59:03.760 US is supporting Israel in our country and like taking 1228 00:59:03.800 --> 00:59:05.840 away our land and hurting our people and murdering people 1229 00:59:05.960 --> 00:59:08.719 like and it's true, it was happening, and so I 1230 00:59:08.760 --> 00:59:11.199 mean it was war. Plus the Syrians were like telling 1231 00:59:11.239 --> 00:59:12.760 them like, yeah, those are your enemies, and here's some 1232 00:59:12.800 --> 00:59:15.199 weapons to fight them. By the way, so and Iran 1233 00:59:15.280 --> 00:59:16.679 was also coming in there and saying the same thing. 1234 00:59:16.719 --> 00:59:18.400 Because these are Shia people. They're like, hey, we're Shia, 1235 00:59:18.440 --> 00:59:20.320 you're Shia. We had just had a revolution, we got 1236 00:59:20.320 --> 00:59:23.360 this war against Saddam over here. Those guys in Syria, 1237 00:59:23.400 --> 00:59:26.599 some of them are Sunni Saddam Sunni. Those guys are Jews. 1238 00:59:26.599 --> 00:59:29.239 We don't like them either. Here, let's support you. 1239 00:59:29.880 --> 00:59:31.599 There was more nuance to Christians. 1240 00:59:32.760 --> 00:59:35.000 Yeah, well, and the Americans were only supporting the Christian 1241 00:59:35.039 --> 00:59:37.119 Lebanese government, not the Sunni or the Shia parts of 1242 00:59:37.119 --> 00:59:40.559 the government. So again it's like this this alien country 1243 00:59:40.599 --> 00:59:43.519 in here, like running around with guns and blowing stuff 1244 00:59:43.599 --> 00:59:47.440 up and like causing problems everywhere. In Israel too, doing 1245 00:59:47.440 --> 00:59:49.719 the same thing. You had the sovereign and Shatila massacre 1246 00:59:49.760 --> 00:59:52.039 where over a thousand civilians were murdered in two days 1247 00:59:52.400 --> 00:59:56.000 by the Israeli controlled U Katab party, which is a 1248 00:59:56.039 --> 00:59:57.760 political party in Lebanon now, but it was called the 1249 00:59:57.760 --> 01:00:01.159 Falangis back then. That Ariel Sharon watched himself. He was there, 1250 01:00:01.280 --> 01:00:04.000 watched it, witnessed it allows it to happen. That was 1251 01:00:04.039 --> 01:00:06.639 just one massacre. There were many massacres in Lebanon all 1252 01:00:06.639 --> 01:00:09.519 the way through the eighteen years. You know. There were 1253 01:00:09.559 --> 01:00:12.159 two torture prisons in South Lebanon, and like so I'm 1254 01:00:12.199 --> 01:00:14.039 just mentioning all this as like context of like why 1255 01:00:14.079 --> 01:00:16.000 do they like people ask like why do they hate us? 1256 01:00:16.280 --> 01:00:19.159 Yeah? The holdop one day and we're like, you know 1257 01:00:19.199 --> 01:00:22.599 what fuck did yous fucked those Americans too, you know 1258 01:00:22.639 --> 01:00:24.039 what I mean, like let's kill them all. 1259 01:00:24.079 --> 01:00:25.800 They hate us, but guys, we're free. 1260 01:00:26.119 --> 01:00:28.559 Yeah right, yeah, yeah. It's really because we were there, 1261 01:00:28.599 --> 01:00:31.119 like shooting people in front of them, you know. That's 1262 01:00:31.159 --> 01:00:32.480 that's where that came from. 1263 01:00:32.679 --> 01:00:32.920 Uh. 1264 01:00:33.280 --> 01:00:35.199 And of course you know times have changed, things are different, 1265 01:00:35.239 --> 01:00:37.719 the world is different, but memories are there. You know, 1266 01:00:37.800 --> 01:00:39.519 Like if you go to Lebanon, like I've been there 1267 01:00:39.559 --> 01:00:42.400 several times, and there are still bullet holes from us. 1268 01:00:43.039 --> 01:00:46.239 They're still bombed out areas that the Israelis bombed out, 1269 01:00:46.320 --> 01:00:48.559 not just the recent ones but the ones from the beginning, 1270 01:00:49.000 --> 01:00:49.199 you know. 1271 01:00:49.280 --> 01:00:50.920 So if you're people in that part of the world, 1272 01:00:50.920 --> 01:00:53.599 they talk about Sych's pea co like it happened last month. 1273 01:00:54.079 --> 01:00:57.360 Absolutely. I was in Iraq in twenty sixteen, in Kurdistan 1274 01:00:57.679 --> 01:00:59.159 and I was trying to go to a source meeting 1275 01:00:59.239 --> 01:01:01.480 and I got interrupted because there was this giant parade 1276 01:01:01.519 --> 01:01:04.559 coming down the street of guys crying younger than me, 1277 01:01:05.039 --> 01:01:07.360 carrying signs that said like down with the British, fuck 1278 01:01:07.440 --> 01:01:10.840 sex Pecou, like on the on the one hundred year 1279 01:01:10.880 --> 01:01:14.599 anniversary of sex Pecou insane. And Americans don't even know 1280 01:01:14.639 --> 01:01:14.880 what that. 1281 01:01:14.920 --> 01:01:17.559 Is, right, and it's got it honestly, frankly, like as 1282 01:01:17.599 --> 01:01:20.840 an American, right, we were you know, America was born 1283 01:01:20.880 --> 01:01:24.800 through a revolution and established freedom as shitty as it 1284 01:01:24.840 --> 01:01:28.159 might have become ready. Like the fact is where democracy 1285 01:01:30.320 --> 01:01:33.519 I You can't help but kind of feel for those people, right, 1286 01:01:33.519 --> 01:01:37.320 because they want to be able to self determine their country, 1287 01:01:37.920 --> 01:01:40.559 have self determination, have some self respect and stuff like that, 1288 01:01:40.599 --> 01:01:45.159 and not have other outward countries, you know, using them 1289 01:01:45.199 --> 01:01:48.960 as a pawn, whether it's a pawn between capitalism, communism 1290 01:01:49.039 --> 01:01:51.239 during the Cold War or something else, right, Like, they 1291 01:01:51.320 --> 01:01:53.480 want to be able to make their own decisions about 1292 01:01:53.519 --> 01:01:54.119 their country. 1293 01:01:54.719 --> 01:01:56.960 But even in America, like when we were our revolution, 1294 01:01:57.360 --> 01:02:00.559 we only won that because the French came to fight British, right, 1295 01:02:00.639 --> 01:02:02.679 you know, that was a great power competition. We were 1296 01:02:02.719 --> 01:02:05.000 the surrogate force. We happened to have a great success 1297 01:02:05.079 --> 01:02:07.800 later on, but we wouldn't have had the successes we 1298 01:02:07.840 --> 01:02:10.960 had without you know, Lafayette and all these guys like 1299 01:02:10.960 --> 01:02:13.519 coming across and helping us out, with helping George Washington, 1300 01:02:13.559 --> 01:02:15.360 he was like he was the partner for us leader. 1301 01:02:15.800 --> 01:02:18.760 You know, they're training us and we were the surrogates, 1302 01:02:18.800 --> 01:02:20.440 and you know, they were advising and assisting us and 1303 01:02:20.480 --> 01:02:23.679 accompanying us in combat. And that's you know, still to 1304 01:02:23.679 --> 01:02:27.920 this day, very similar happening in the Middle East or 1305 01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:32.440 the British. Yeah, people should really read the Declaration of Independence, 1306 01:02:32.480 --> 01:02:34.760 like the list of things, the litany of problems they 1307 01:02:34.800 --> 01:02:38.199 had with the king, and think about, like people have 1308 01:02:38.280 --> 01:02:41.239 these problems with governments today. You know, you can't just 1309 01:02:41.280 --> 01:02:43.119 be like, well, you guys should just accept our freedom. 1310 01:02:43.159 --> 01:02:45.519 It's like, well, I mean, they might have actual legitimate 1311 01:02:45.519 --> 01:02:47.639 grievances going on here in addition to some stuff that 1312 01:02:47.679 --> 01:02:50.480 might also not be legitimate. But think about like Afghanistan 1313 01:02:50.519 --> 01:02:52.599 when Hamid Karzai came in there and we're like, hey, guys, 1314 01:02:52.639 --> 01:02:55.840 here's your new constitution. Take it. We didn't do that 1315 01:02:55.880 --> 01:02:57.960 for our own constitution, you know what I mean? 1316 01:02:58.039 --> 01:03:03.480 Yah? All right, So we're in the eighties. Now has 1317 01:03:03.559 --> 01:03:10.880 Belah Syria that fucking you know powder keg? When do 1318 01:03:10.960 --> 01:03:13.360 we start hearing about Iranian nuclear weapons? 1319 01:03:14.840 --> 01:03:17.320 So you had a guy named aq Khan. He was Pakistani. 1320 01:03:17.679 --> 01:03:19.880 He had these centrifuges that he was selling to people. 1321 01:03:20.559 --> 01:03:23.039 And this is important to put in the context of 1322 01:03:23.119 --> 01:03:26.440 Israel's nuclear weapon program, which was older. Israel got its 1323 01:03:26.440 --> 01:03:30.320 first nuclear weapons exposure testing exposure in Algeria from the 1324 01:03:30.320 --> 01:03:33.960 French in the nineteen fifties, and there were some Israeli 1325 01:03:33.960 --> 01:03:36.519 scientists that were there that were invited there to witness 1326 01:03:36.719 --> 01:03:39.599 these nuclear tests. There were some other Israeli scientists in 1327 01:03:39.639 --> 01:03:41.960 the United States that actually took some uranium from the 1328 01:03:42.039 --> 01:03:44.760 United States to Israel and used that as like the 1329 01:03:44.800 --> 01:03:48.119 seed for the Demona reactor in Israel and the weapons 1330 01:03:48.119 --> 01:03:51.719 program as well. There was also the Vila weapons test 1331 01:03:52.079 --> 01:03:56.480 in nineteen seventy eight, which was a highly classified detection 1332 01:03:56.679 --> 01:04:00.320 the US had of a nuclear test in the Cific 1333 01:04:00.320 --> 01:04:04.800 Ocean south of Africa. This was and is considered to 1334 01:04:04.840 --> 01:04:08.239 be a South African joint Israeli nuclear weapons test with 1335 01:04:08.360 --> 01:04:11.119 the apartheid government of South Africa testing out nuclear weapons. 1336 01:04:11.440 --> 01:04:13.760 If you remember, South Africa gave up its nuclear program 1337 01:04:13.760 --> 01:04:19.000 after apartheid ended. All their stuff left South Africa. Nobody 1338 01:04:19.039 --> 01:04:21.440 asks where it went. It went to Israel. So that's 1339 01:04:21.480 --> 01:04:24.519 important to know because you have this other country, Iran 1340 01:04:25.360 --> 01:04:28.199 that's looking at Israel like they have a nuclear weapon. 1341 01:04:28.440 --> 01:04:30.440 They have probably one hundred of them, they have a reactor. 1342 01:04:30.519 --> 01:04:33.360 They have not signed the Biological Weapons Treaty, they have 1343 01:04:33.400 --> 01:04:35.800 not signed the Chemical Weapons Treaty, they haven't signed the 1344 01:04:35.840 --> 01:04:38.320 Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, they haven't signed the NPT Nuclear 1345 01:04:38.360 --> 01:04:40.920 Non Proliferation Treaty. Like, this is a country that clearly 1346 01:04:41.000 --> 01:04:42.719 has weapons and intends to use them. By not I 1347 01:04:42.800 --> 01:04:45.920 mean it's indicated by their insistence on not acknowledging them 1348 01:04:45.920 --> 01:04:48.880 and also not signing these agreements. That's like rationally what 1349 01:04:48.920 --> 01:04:51.719 they're thinking. They're like, we need something like that. So 1350 01:04:51.760 --> 01:04:53.679 in the nineties they start doing that, they start researching, 1351 01:04:53.719 --> 01:04:56.440 like can we do this? Well, Ayatola Kamani says like, 1352 01:04:57.079 --> 01:04:59.880 you can do nuclear research, but you can't make weapons, 1353 01:05:00.400 --> 01:05:02.960 and he actually issued a fatwa that said no weapons, 1354 01:05:03.440 --> 01:05:05.719 but research was okay. And this was kind of the 1355 01:05:05.719 --> 01:05:08.320 genesis of that. It was exposed in two thousand and 1356 01:05:08.360 --> 01:05:11.599 three by the Mujadini Kalk. The Mujadini Kalk are not 1357 01:05:11.960 --> 01:05:17.119 intelligence collectors, they're intelligence assets. It was Masad that collected 1358 01:05:17.119 --> 01:05:20.760 this intelligence and then had the Mujinini Kalk announce that 1359 01:05:20.800 --> 01:05:24.000 Iran had a nuclear weapons program. And actually in the 1360 01:05:24.039 --> 01:05:26.039 early two thousands, like two thousand, two thousand and three, 1361 01:05:26.079 --> 01:05:30.800 Meridigan was the Masad director. He was told by Natyahu, 1362 01:05:31.559 --> 01:05:34.239 we're no longer interested in the PLO and Palestinian issues. 1363 01:05:34.280 --> 01:05:37.159 We're now focusing on Iran, has Bulah and Hamas, and 1364 01:05:37.199 --> 01:05:40.719 they shifted their priorities against Iran. Part of that nuclear 1365 01:05:40.760 --> 01:05:43.079 weapons announcement or part of that shift was the nuclear 1366 01:05:43.079 --> 01:05:47.280 weapons announcement that the Mujahideen made. Up till two thousand 1367 01:05:47.280 --> 01:05:49.599 and three, the Mujadini Kalk was a terrorist organization in 1368 01:05:49.599 --> 01:05:53.400 the United States. We had them labeled as a terrorist organization. Miraculously, 1369 01:05:53.559 --> 01:05:55.800 that same month that the announcement was made, we took 1370 01:05:55.800 --> 01:06:01.679 the designation off. That's crazy or coincidental happened. Suddenly they 1371 01:06:01.679 --> 01:06:03.719 started being on our side, and we started giving them 1372 01:06:03.760 --> 01:06:07.079 diplomatic protection and things like this. And now suddenly, after 1373 01:06:07.119 --> 01:06:08.360 two thousand and three, you start to see a lot 1374 01:06:08.360 --> 01:06:09.639 of this stuff released to the public. 1375 01:06:10.159 --> 01:06:12.400 Yeah, So, why did it happen in two thousand and three, 1376 01:06:13.400 --> 01:06:13.920 I wonder it. 1377 01:06:13.960 --> 01:06:18.559 So there was this discussion in the nineteen nineties, nineteen 1378 01:06:18.599 --> 01:06:20.480 ninety six. I believe it was when Netanyahu first came 1379 01:06:20.559 --> 01:06:23.679 to power. The very first time, they wanted this idea 1380 01:06:23.800 --> 01:06:28.840 of removing extreme governments from Israel's periphery. So they got 1381 01:06:28.880 --> 01:06:31.320 Egypt in nineteen seventy eight seventy nine with Saddad to 1382 01:06:31.440 --> 01:06:34.519 agree to stop doing that. They got Jordan in nineteen 1383 01:06:34.559 --> 01:06:37.199 ninety three. Then they said, well, these other countries are 1384 01:06:37.239 --> 01:06:38.719 just never going to sign a peace treaty, so what 1385 01:06:38.760 --> 01:06:41.079 we need to do is regime change for the really 1386 01:06:41.119 --> 01:06:44.320 serious ones. Those serious ones are Syria, Iraq, and Iran. 1387 01:06:45.599 --> 01:06:47.440 This was part of the push that Israel had with 1388 01:06:47.480 --> 01:06:49.760 the United States, like we need to change the regime 1389 01:06:49.800 --> 01:06:52.800 in Iran, change the regime in Syria, and change it 1390 01:06:52.880 --> 01:06:55.639 in Iraq. And they actually struck the nuclear reactor in Syria, 1391 01:06:55.880 --> 01:06:59.000 they struck the nuclear facility in Iraq. They didn't get 1392 01:06:59.000 --> 01:07:03.199 into Iran because they couldn't reach that far at the time, right, 1393 01:07:03.400 --> 01:07:05.119 so who could do it? Oh U to us could 1394 01:07:05.119 --> 01:07:07.320 do it. So there was this push since the early 1395 01:07:07.360 --> 01:07:09.320 two thousands to convince the United States that Iran was 1396 01:07:09.320 --> 01:07:11.000 part of this problem. And if you remember the famous 1397 01:07:11.039 --> 01:07:13.800 George Bush State of the Union, the Axis of Evil 1398 01:07:13.960 --> 01:07:15.920 that caught the Irunians off guard. They were like, wait 1399 01:07:15.960 --> 01:07:18.079 a minute, we had just given you guys intelligence about 1400 01:07:18.119 --> 01:07:20.320 what was going on with Al Kaida in Afghanistan. And 1401 01:07:20.360 --> 01:07:22.960 they did they had given us, like actual raw intelligence 1402 01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:25.519 from their collection in Afghanistan. They're trying to work with us. 1403 01:07:26.000 --> 01:07:29.360 The Syrians also had given US intelligence after nine to eleven, 1404 01:07:29.519 --> 01:07:31.440 saying like, hey, there's Al Qaida guys here and here 1405 01:07:31.440 --> 01:07:33.320 and here, and you can do what you want with them. 1406 01:07:33.719 --> 01:07:36.599 That shocked those guys, but it was part of this 1407 01:07:36.679 --> 01:07:40.840 push to alienate those countries. And as I said, Israel 1408 01:07:40.840 --> 01:07:41.679 couldn't do itself. 1409 01:07:43.679 --> 01:07:46.239 Yeah, there's I wish I could remember exactly where it 1410 01:07:46.280 --> 01:07:50.320 was published, but it was in a memoir They wrote 1411 01:07:50.360 --> 01:07:53.800 about a meeting that happened during George W. Bush's presidency 1412 01:07:54.199 --> 01:07:57.320 where the discussion about invading and doing a regime change 1413 01:07:57.320 --> 01:08:00.360 in Syria came up and Dick Cheney he was the 1414 01:08:00.360 --> 01:08:03.320 only one in support. This was post two thousand and three. 1415 01:08:03.800 --> 01:08:06.760 They had gotten burned by the war in Iraq, obviously, 1416 01:08:07.280 --> 01:08:09.599 and Cheney was all about it, but everyone else in 1417 01:08:09.599 --> 01:08:11.519 the room in the National Security Council was. 1418 01:08:11.480 --> 01:08:14.880 Like, nah, oh sorry, yeah, very Cheney. Thing to do 1419 01:08:14.960 --> 01:08:19.560 is just so be down to go into it. Yeah, 1420 01:08:19.640 --> 01:08:22.159 it wasn't. There also an intelligence assessment in two thousand 1421 01:08:22.239 --> 01:08:25.760 and seven that basically said a US intelligence assessment that 1422 01:08:25.840 --> 01:08:30.399 said that the Iranians were not building a nuclear weapon. 1423 01:08:30.439 --> 01:08:32.479 That's correct. And if you've seen you know that, you 1424 01:08:32.479 --> 01:08:34.199 could probably make a montage of all the clips of 1425 01:08:34.279 --> 01:08:36.359 net Yahoo in the UN holding up a piece of 1426 01:08:36.359 --> 01:08:39.119 paper with a bomb saying like tomorrow, yeah, two weeks 1427 01:08:39.119 --> 01:08:41.760 to exactly. And he's been saying that since that two 1428 01:08:41.800 --> 01:08:44.840 thousand and three announcement. I bet you if you asked 1429 01:08:44.880 --> 01:08:46.640 him now, he'd still say it, even though we've completely 1430 01:08:46.640 --> 01:08:49.880 obliterated all their nuclear materials. But that's part of what 1431 01:08:49.920 --> 01:08:51.680 they want to do, is to change the regime, to 1432 01:08:51.680 --> 01:08:54.439 have control over that regional actor in a way that 1433 01:08:54.479 --> 01:08:56.760 they can they can manage. That's the end state. 1434 01:08:57.199 --> 01:09:01.520 And throughout the two thousands and twenty ten, there were 1435 01:09:01.680 --> 01:09:06.800 all these like American joint American Israeli programs like developing 1436 01:09:06.960 --> 01:09:10.079 new bunker buster bombs and things like this that was 1437 01:09:10.119 --> 01:09:13.680 all specifically targeted for Iran, and there were all kinds 1438 01:09:13.720 --> 01:09:16.079 of plans drawn up that you would have, you know, 1439 01:09:16.159 --> 01:09:18.800 American submarines and Israelis would come in and do this, 1440 01:09:18.880 --> 01:09:23.359 and that basically regime change plans for Iran. And my 1441 01:09:23.439 --> 01:09:26.560 understanding is that Obama had the opportunity that the plan 1442 01:09:26.680 --> 01:09:28.079 was put in front of him and he said no, 1443 01:09:29.680 --> 01:09:31.880 and you know, yeah, and actually. 1444 01:09:31.640 --> 01:09:35.439 The Obama situation. Obama had his idea about Iran was 1445 01:09:35.720 --> 01:09:38.079 to use the diplomatic instrument of national power as the 1446 01:09:38.159 --> 01:09:41.079 number one instrument. And that's how we got to Stucksnet 1447 01:09:41.159 --> 01:09:43.039 because it was a dual track. 1448 01:09:43.279 --> 01:09:45.600 Coviction supporting a diplomatic effort. 1449 01:09:45.640 --> 01:09:45.840 Yeah. 1450 01:09:45.880 --> 01:09:48.439 Absolutely, Yeah, So they're putting pressure on the program while 1451 01:09:48.439 --> 01:09:50.640 also trying to negotiate the program. That was the way 1452 01:09:50.640 --> 01:09:51.560 that was working, and it worked. 1453 01:09:51.600 --> 01:09:55.159 Is real way of doing that just murdering nuclear scientists and. 1454 01:09:56.359 --> 01:09:58.880 That came later twenty twelve. They killed six of them 1455 01:09:58.920 --> 01:10:00.359 in one year. Yeah. 1456 01:10:00.840 --> 01:10:04.079 So stucks Net, like as the layman, obviously, I've heard 1457 01:10:04.119 --> 01:10:07.000 of it. I've read about it slightly. My understanding is 1458 01:10:07.039 --> 01:10:09.399 that Stuck's Net was developed by the United States, We 1459 01:10:09.439 --> 01:10:12.279 shared it with Israel, and then Israel deployed it without 1460 01:10:12.319 --> 01:10:15.279 our note, without our Okay, So that's. 1461 01:10:15.159 --> 01:10:17.840 Not exactly accurate. So it's actually called Operation Olympic Games. 1462 01:10:17.920 --> 01:10:19.800 The reason it was called Olympic Games is because there's 1463 01:10:19.840 --> 01:10:24.000 five rings in the Olympics logo. Each of those rings 1464 01:10:24.039 --> 01:10:26.840 was one of the five countries participating in Stucksnet. Israel 1465 01:10:26.840 --> 01:10:28.680 and the United States for two of those five countries. 1466 01:10:29.399 --> 01:10:33.079 There were also three European countries participating as well, and 1467 01:10:34.119 --> 01:10:36.319 the reason all of these countries were participating is because 1468 01:10:36.319 --> 01:10:39.000 they all had some steak in. They had a problem 1469 01:10:39.039 --> 01:10:41.960 with this nuclear program in some way. For example, Germany 1470 01:10:42.039 --> 01:10:44.159 was one of the five and the reason Germany participated 1471 01:10:44.159 --> 01:10:47.960 is because Iran was using the Siemens produced centrifuges and 1472 01:10:48.000 --> 01:10:51.319 they didn't like that. The Germans also provided a ton 1473 01:10:51.359 --> 01:10:55.359 of intelligence on the Semens centrifuges to help the US 1474 01:10:55.399 --> 01:10:59.640 build the zero day attack against the Semens centrifuges. That's 1475 01:10:59.680 --> 01:11:02.079 how we knew how to actually exploit them the way 1476 01:11:02.119 --> 01:11:03.960 that we did, which is very creative. It's because we 1477 01:11:03.960 --> 01:11:07.560 were given the schematics by Germany as a participant in 1478 01:11:07.600 --> 01:11:08.319 this program. 1479 01:11:08.479 --> 01:11:11.560 Siemens has a pretty long history backstory with the CIA, 1480 01:11:11.680 --> 01:11:12.119 I believe. 1481 01:11:12.319 --> 01:11:16.119 Yeah, that's another episode probably, Yeah. 1482 01:11:16.000 --> 01:11:16.279 It is. 1483 01:11:16.439 --> 01:11:18.479 Yeah, because actually in the nineties the Germans were training 1484 01:11:18.520 --> 01:11:21.680 the Iranian intelligence on how to do intelops against the West. 1485 01:11:21.760 --> 01:11:25.399 So that's a whole other thing. But they had kind 1486 01:11:25.399 --> 01:11:27.159 of cleaned up their act by the early two thousands 1487 01:11:27.159 --> 01:11:29.560 and they were actually helping us at that point. But yeah, 1488 01:11:29.560 --> 01:11:30.840 it was the B and D. The B and D 1489 01:11:31.000 --> 01:11:33.720 is also the one that owned the curveball asset in 1490 01:11:33.720 --> 01:11:36.000 the nineteen nineties that gave us false information about the 1491 01:11:36.079 --> 01:11:39.680 weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. So that's another Germany contribution. 1492 01:11:39.960 --> 01:11:40.439 Home run. 1493 01:11:40.520 --> 01:11:43.000 Yeah, thanks, No, it's. 1494 01:11:42.840 --> 01:11:47.199 A curve ball, not a home run. Yeah, but uh yeah. 1495 01:11:47.199 --> 01:11:49.760 So what happened was they put they got these zero 1496 01:11:49.880 --> 01:11:54.479 day exploits, which means exploits that you know, the moment 1497 01:11:54.520 --> 01:11:56.800 you use them, they disappear, right, they lose their efficacy 1498 01:11:56.800 --> 01:11:59.399 because they're so bad. They's so they attack of vulnerability 1499 01:11:59.439 --> 01:12:00.800 in such a way that you can only use it once. 1500 01:12:00.840 --> 01:12:03.119 It's like a one shot thing. The US came up 1501 01:12:03.159 --> 01:12:05.720 with a couple of them that were within the chain 1502 01:12:06.000 --> 01:12:10.800 of reactor elements there, so it wasn't just the centrifugees. 1503 01:12:10.840 --> 01:12:12.840 It was other stuff in there as well, in natons, 1504 01:12:13.520 --> 01:12:15.920 And what they're able to do was actually slow down 1505 01:12:16.079 --> 01:12:20.159 the centrifuges on demand using this kind of program sequence 1506 01:12:20.520 --> 01:12:24.359 on these things called programmable logic controllers or PLCs, and 1507 01:12:24.479 --> 01:12:26.399 it would basically speed them up and slow them down 1508 01:12:26.600 --> 01:12:30.000 and degrade the process of enrichment, but not destroy it 1509 01:12:30.399 --> 01:12:32.520 and also not let it happen perfectly. It was like 1510 01:12:32.560 --> 01:12:35.039 the perfect gray area in between where it was just 1511 01:12:35.199 --> 01:12:39.319 enough to degrade the activity. It was pretty brilliant and 1512 01:12:39.520 --> 01:12:41.640 it was done with these zero day exploits. The real 1513 01:12:41.680 --> 01:12:44.039 win there is not the zero days, because there are 1514 01:12:44.119 --> 01:12:46.680 zero days everywhere. It was that they were able to 1515 01:12:46.720 --> 01:12:50.560 jump an air gap, which means the reactor system was 1516 01:12:50.600 --> 01:12:52.560 separate on it was not on a network that was 1517 01:12:52.560 --> 01:12:55.199 attached to anything. They were able to actually jump the 1518 01:12:55.199 --> 01:12:58.760 air gap between a computer attached to the world and 1519 01:12:58.800 --> 01:13:02.439 a computer not attached to anything. This was the pure 1520 01:13:02.479 --> 01:13:04.520 stroke of genius in stuck snet. 1521 01:13:04.800 --> 01:13:07.359 And is there any idea how they did that? Did 1522 01:13:07.359 --> 01:13:09.800 they have somebody like put a USB stick into it? 1523 01:13:10.000 --> 01:13:10.960 How did that come about? 1524 01:13:11.520 --> 01:13:14.000 That's exactly what happens. So there's actually a control laptop 1525 01:13:14.039 --> 01:13:17.239 in there in the in the reactor sub bay where 1526 01:13:17.640 --> 01:13:19.960 you know it's it's this computer that's hooked up because 1527 01:13:20.000 --> 01:13:24.039 program will logic controllers use machine language to work, and 1528 01:13:24.079 --> 01:13:26.319 that laptop has to kind of work with the machine language, 1529 01:13:26.359 --> 01:13:28.439 you know, without getting too technical, it's basically like a 1530 01:13:28.479 --> 01:13:30.720 way for the human to interface with the machine language. 1531 01:13:31.159 --> 01:13:33.640 And that gentleman did go in there with a USB 1532 01:13:33.760 --> 01:13:37.039 thumb drive that gentleman was unwitting to what he was doing, 1533 01:13:37.359 --> 01:13:39.119 put the thumb drive in there and was able to 1534 01:13:39.159 --> 01:13:44.920 deliver the exploit package to the reactor system. 1535 01:13:45.079 --> 01:13:48.640 And this is all don't take don't leave your laptops, 1536 01:13:48.720 --> 01:13:51.720 your USB's around hot ladies, guys, just remember that. 1537 01:13:52.680 --> 01:13:54.720 Yeah, Actually we had a problem. I was at NSA 1538 01:13:54.760 --> 01:13:56.920 at this time, and we had a problem because we 1539 01:13:56.960 --> 01:14:00.720 had USB's also in our computers back then, and as 1540 01:14:00.720 --> 01:14:03.840 soon as the exploit was getting developed, all of us 1541 01:14:03.920 --> 01:14:07.159 in the whole NSA enterprise had to switch out our 1542 01:14:07.199 --> 01:14:09.880 laptops and change everything, and all the USB imports were 1543 01:14:09.880 --> 01:14:12.880 disabled because there was a counter intelligence concern that once 1544 01:14:12.920 --> 01:14:14.640 we use this zero day it will be understood and 1545 01:14:14.720 --> 01:14:16.399 will immediately we'll all be exploited. 1546 01:14:16.479 --> 01:14:19.000 I mean, there's just so much more, like, so much 1547 01:14:19.079 --> 01:14:24.680 to cover, you know, in conjunction obviously with stucks net, 1548 01:14:24.800 --> 01:14:29.039 you know, we do. Obama or administration was trying to 1549 01:14:29.920 --> 01:14:32.119 made it happen. It took a few years to get 1550 01:14:32.119 --> 01:14:35.960 the JCPOA together. Let's talk a little bit about that 1551 01:14:36.840 --> 01:14:39.479 and how it came, how it came up, how it 1552 01:14:39.520 --> 01:14:40.279 was established. 1553 01:14:41.439 --> 01:14:43.720 Yeah, so basically what you had was these five countries 1554 01:14:44.079 --> 01:14:46.720 plus Germany, so the five countries of the National Security 1555 01:14:46.720 --> 01:14:52.239 Council or the UN Security Council representatives and Germany P 1556 01:14:52.319 --> 01:14:55.239 five plus one is what it was called. And they 1557 01:14:55.239 --> 01:14:58.319 all had the shared interest of basically using kind of 1558 01:14:58.319 --> 01:15:01.560 an atoms for peace approach, which is the Eisenhower idea 1559 01:15:01.600 --> 01:15:03.920 of how countries should have nuclear programs, like let them 1560 01:15:03.920 --> 01:15:06.079 have it, but let us participate in it. That was 1561 01:15:06.079 --> 01:15:07.960 the kind of concept that was there. So they're trying 1562 01:15:07.960 --> 01:15:09.600 to like make it a new way to do that 1563 01:15:09.640 --> 01:15:12.520 where instead of obliterating their nuclear program, because if you 1564 01:15:13.079 --> 01:15:14.920 tell people they can't have something, they tend to go 1565 01:15:15.159 --> 01:15:17.920 want to get it. So instead, let's actually participate in 1566 01:15:17.920 --> 01:15:20.600 their nuclear program. And this is Russia there also in China, 1567 01:15:20.640 --> 01:15:22.560 so like there are actors who are actually aligned with 1568 01:15:22.800 --> 01:15:24.399 the Iran that were willing to come in there and 1569 01:15:24.439 --> 01:15:26.479 help out to make sure that Iran could have a 1570 01:15:26.479 --> 01:15:29.520 peaceful nuclear research program but not weapons. And the best 1571 01:15:29.520 --> 01:15:31.000 way to know that is to be really close to 1572 01:15:31.039 --> 01:15:34.199 the program and see it and observe it and know like, okay, 1573 01:15:34.279 --> 01:15:38.119 they're not enriching past x percentage. And so John Kerrey 1574 01:15:38.199 --> 01:15:40.920 actually went there and met with Mohammed Zarif in Switzerland 1575 01:15:41.239 --> 01:15:43.760 numerous times. They had laid hours and hours of time 1576 01:15:43.800 --> 01:15:46.319 together talking about this and actually like really working this 1577 01:15:46.399 --> 01:15:49.479 out all in secret, Like the world knew the negotiations 1578 01:15:49.479 --> 01:15:51.560 were happening, but we didn't know what the substance of 1579 01:15:51.600 --> 01:15:52.680 the negotiations. 1580 01:15:52.800 --> 01:15:55.319 Yeah, we weren't screaming that stuff on like Twitter or 1581 01:15:55.399 --> 01:15:56.199 anything like that. 1582 01:15:56.600 --> 01:15:59.359 Yeah. So in twenty fifteen, we finally reached that agreement. 1583 01:16:00.079 --> 01:16:02.640 The thing was, this was a nuclear agreement, not a 1584 01:16:02.760 --> 01:16:05.760 comprehensive treaty with Iran or something. So it was missing 1585 01:16:05.800 --> 01:16:10.119 the ballistic missile component, it was missing the surrogate force component. 1586 01:16:10.560 --> 01:16:12.239 This was where a lot of the backlash came to 1587 01:16:12.279 --> 01:16:15.319 this agreement because people said, well, this isn't covering Hasbola, 1588 01:16:15.399 --> 01:16:18.880 it's not covering ICBMs, And the thing was like, well, yeah, 1589 01:16:18.920 --> 01:16:20.800 that's not what this is about. This is about nuclear 1590 01:16:20.840 --> 01:16:24.760 research and nuclear weapons specific. It's very specific, and if 1591 01:16:24.800 --> 01:16:27.760 you read the JCPOA, it's extremely specific. It's just the program. 1592 01:16:28.600 --> 01:16:30.000 And it was a victory in its own, like, it's 1593 01:16:30.039 --> 01:16:31.560 amazing that we even got to that point because we 1594 01:16:31.600 --> 01:16:33.399 disagreed in a lot of things as country I mean 1595 01:16:33.479 --> 01:16:36.840 five countries, Russia and China agreed in this thing with 1596 01:16:36.840 --> 01:16:39.840 the United States. That's amazing, not just the Iran that 1597 01:16:39.920 --> 01:16:43.239 Iran agreed, but that those two countries agreed. Right, So 1598 01:16:43.920 --> 01:16:48.039 we had that twenty fifteen, and Trump, when he was 1599 01:16:48.079 --> 01:16:51.279 elected in twenty sixteen, immediately began saying that they were 1600 01:16:51.319 --> 01:16:55.000 going to withdraw from it. And so twenty seventeen the 1601 01:16:55.359 --> 01:16:58.239 withdrawal threats grew louder and louder, and the twenty eighteen 1602 01:16:58.279 --> 01:17:00.720 he finally withdrew and also kicked Iran out of the 1603 01:17:00.760 --> 01:17:03.159 Swift banking system. Swift is the system you used to 1604 01:17:03.319 --> 01:17:06.520 actually have, you know, finance transfers across the world, so 1605 01:17:06.600 --> 01:17:08.880 that means Iran was cut off from the world banking system. 1606 01:17:09.000 --> 01:17:11.399 We ramped up sanctions, we pulled out of the nuclear agreement, 1607 01:17:11.680 --> 01:17:13.880 and instead of Iran like immediately going and building a 1608 01:17:13.920 --> 01:17:17.039 nuclear bomb, they stayed on the diplomatic track and tried 1609 01:17:17.560 --> 01:17:20.720 to slowly, slowly get back to the plan. They said, look, 1610 01:17:21.239 --> 01:17:23.960 we're going to do this ratcheted program where if you 1611 01:17:24.000 --> 01:17:25.800 don't agree by this point, we're going to do this thing. 1612 01:17:25.840 --> 01:17:27.119 If you don't agree on the next thing, we're going 1613 01:17:27.159 --> 01:17:28.479 to do this thing, and they actually laid it out 1614 01:17:28.479 --> 01:17:30.560 and they did that. They ratcheted up in Richmond, for example, 1615 01:17:30.680 --> 01:17:32.960 very slowly. You know, they said, okay, next time. 1616 01:17:33.039 --> 01:17:35.359 There was a bunch of other countries involved in this. 1617 01:17:35.439 --> 01:17:37.720 It wasn't just US in the It wasn't by lad. 1618 01:17:37.600 --> 01:17:40.960 Or right right. The problem is it was an executive 1619 01:17:41.840 --> 01:17:46.119 action on the US side. It wasn't a treaty, which 1620 01:17:46.159 --> 01:17:48.640 means that any president, as the executive has the ability 1621 01:17:48.640 --> 01:17:50.279 to pull out of it. There's nothing wrong with that, Like, 1622 01:17:50.319 --> 01:17:52.720 that's how it's designed. That's supposed to be that way. So, 1623 01:17:53.159 --> 01:17:55.000 you know, because we in the US knew. I remember, 1624 01:17:55.000 --> 01:17:57.000 if you remember, this was a Republican controlled Senate when 1625 01:17:57.000 --> 01:18:00.159 this thing was first thought up, and Republican controlled Congress 1626 01:18:00.520 --> 01:18:03.000 who did not agree with the JCPOA from the very beginning. 1627 01:18:03.520 --> 01:18:05.560 So you know, Obama knew that, like, hey, I can't 1628 01:18:05.560 --> 01:18:07.000 make this into a treaty. I have to do an 1629 01:18:07.039 --> 01:18:09.600 executive agreement instead, because Congress will never approve they have 1630 01:18:09.600 --> 01:18:11.720 to ratify a treaty. They'll never approve it. 1631 01:18:11.800 --> 01:18:14.039 Why would they? Why would they do that? Right, a 1632 01:18:14.079 --> 01:18:17.479 treaty to stop the enrichment of uranium and to not 1633 01:18:17.520 --> 01:18:20.119 have another country that is looked at as a belligerent 1634 01:18:20.159 --> 01:18:22.720 country to you and says, get a nuclear weapon. Why 1635 01:18:22.760 --> 01:18:25.079 would Congress ever act in the interest of the world 1636 01:18:25.199 --> 01:18:26.760 or the United States? It's wild to me. 1637 01:18:27.359 --> 01:18:29.319 Well they thought it just you know, it's missing Hesbola 1638 01:18:29.359 --> 01:18:30.239 and the ICBMs. 1639 01:18:30.279 --> 01:18:32.359 And that's that's the problem. I get it. Yeah, yeah, 1640 01:18:32.560 --> 01:18:34.359 that's what fast forwards. Can we be honest? 1641 01:18:35.600 --> 01:18:38.079 So we fast forward and Trump has now made Iran 1642 01:18:38.119 --> 01:18:40.439 the most sanctioned country on the planet. This was twenty 1643 01:18:40.479 --> 01:18:46.119 eighteen when Pompeo was the Sex State and all that 1644 01:18:46.479 --> 01:18:49.920 before he was CIA director, and that was his plan 1645 01:18:50.039 --> 01:18:52.319 was basically like, hey, instead of like negotiating with them, 1646 01:18:52.359 --> 01:18:55.760 let's sanction them into submission. And I've said this before. 1647 01:18:55.840 --> 01:19:00.359 Sanctions are perfectly designed to hurt a capitalist economy. They're 1648 01:19:00.840 --> 01:19:04.720 terrible on an authoritarian government because authoritarian governments already have 1649 01:19:04.760 --> 01:19:06.720 their own access to assets. They don't care about the 1650 01:19:06.720 --> 01:19:10.119 regular economic system enriching them. They don't care if the 1651 01:19:10.199 --> 01:19:12.880 people are harmed and starving. And so we had over 1652 01:19:12.920 --> 01:19:15.199 seven hundred and fifty sanctions on them after twenty nineteen, 1653 01:19:15.880 --> 01:19:17.720 and it actually made them richer. And there's a graph 1654 01:19:17.800 --> 01:19:19.159 that I have in my book that you can look 1655 01:19:19.199 --> 01:19:22.600 at where it's like an upward pointing arrow. As soon 1656 01:19:22.600 --> 01:19:24.359 as we pulled out a swift, pulled them out of swift. 1657 01:19:24.399 --> 01:19:28.359 As soon as we sanctioned them. Every year they're riches 1658 01:19:28.640 --> 01:19:30.920 of that small group of elites running the country doubled. 1659 01:19:31.640 --> 01:19:35.399 It made them extremely wealthy because now no Iranian can 1660 01:19:35.439 --> 01:19:38.439 participate in the banking system, even regular ones. So guess 1661 01:19:38.479 --> 01:19:41.239 who controls the banks in the country. The IERGC now 1662 01:19:41.239 --> 01:19:44.319 controls the entire black market, and they're taxing you and 1663 01:19:44.399 --> 01:19:46.119 charging you. If you want an iPhone and Iran you 1664 01:19:46.119 --> 01:19:48.680 can have it. It's just four thousand dollars and all 1665 01:19:48.720 --> 01:19:51.840 that overhead money goes to the IERGC. So it basically 1666 01:19:52.000 --> 01:19:54.239 served to enrich the government and the people that run 1667 01:19:54.239 --> 01:19:56.760 the government and their families and all that. They're super 1668 01:19:56.800 --> 01:20:00.239 wealthy now because of how we exited the JCPOA. 1669 01:20:01.680 --> 01:20:05.840 And as we're exiting the JCPOA, and that's you know, 1670 01:20:05.960 --> 01:20:08.920 beginning to slowly fall apart, well least on our end 1671 01:20:09.039 --> 01:20:13.239 after sanctioning them and all that. Our intel network inside 1672 01:20:13.239 --> 01:20:16.279 of Iran was compromised twenty nineteen. 1673 01:20:16.640 --> 01:20:20.279 Yeah, yes, so we had a lot of human recruited 1674 01:20:20.319 --> 01:20:22.560 assets inside of Iran that we were meeting with inside 1675 01:20:22.560 --> 01:20:26.079 of Iran, not just CIA, but also some dd very 1676 01:20:26.079 --> 01:20:31.560 specialized collection entities working in there, and they were using 1677 01:20:31.640 --> 01:20:36.000 certain ways of communicating that got compromised. Once one of 1678 01:20:36.000 --> 01:20:39.720 those was compromised, the regime was able to analyze that 1679 01:20:39.840 --> 01:20:43.079 and look for patterns and how that communication happened across 1680 01:20:43.119 --> 01:20:45.279 the Internet, and they were able to identify many, many 1681 01:20:45.439 --> 01:20:49.119 recruited assets that also used that communication method. And the 1682 01:20:49.199 --> 01:20:51.439 truth is, we got kind of complacent with our covert 1683 01:20:51.439 --> 01:20:54.119 communication methods and started using the same ones over and 1684 01:20:54.199 --> 01:20:57.159 over with multiple assets, which allowed them to be compromised 1685 01:20:57.199 --> 01:21:00.239 once that communication method was discovered. And so what the 1686 01:21:00.279 --> 01:21:03.079 regime did was they let the meetings go on for 1687 01:21:03.119 --> 01:21:06.159 a while, and they actually let they capture some of 1688 01:21:06.159 --> 01:21:09.640 the recordings of those meetings and then publicize them, kind 1689 01:21:09.680 --> 01:21:11.680 of what the Cubans did in the nineteen eighties when 1690 01:21:11.680 --> 01:21:14.399 they there's a bunch of double agents in Cuba, very 1691 01:21:14.399 --> 01:21:16.800 similar thing. The Russians actually released video of US dead 1692 01:21:16.880 --> 01:21:18.920 drops and stuff like that with sources inside of Cuba. 1693 01:21:19.720 --> 01:21:21.880 So the Iranians did that. They capture a lot of 1694 01:21:21.880 --> 01:21:25.439 these Iranians that we're working with. The US executed them. 1695 01:21:26.239 --> 01:21:28.800 So then we're left with no assets in Iran almost 1696 01:21:28.840 --> 01:21:31.760 like let's say almost none. Well, who still has assets 1697 01:21:31.800 --> 01:21:35.760 in Iran Israel? So now the US has to rely 1698 01:21:35.800 --> 01:21:40.600 on Israeli gathered intelligence, like filtered through Israeli intelligence systems 1699 01:21:40.600 --> 01:21:43.000 and released to us what they have proved to be 1700 01:21:43.079 --> 01:21:44.920 released to us. That's the intel that we now have 1701 01:21:45.039 --> 01:21:48.279 on human intelligence in Iran. We still have signals, intelligence 1702 01:21:48.319 --> 01:21:52.239 and other mechanisms, but the human is now reduced to 1703 01:21:52.279 --> 01:21:55.279 a third country providing it to us. Every country has 1704 01:21:55.279 --> 01:21:58.439 their own interests, every country, Even when we share intelligence 1705 01:21:58.479 --> 01:22:01.640 with the British or whomever, we have decided what we 1706 01:22:01.720 --> 01:22:03.359 will share and how we will share it for our 1707 01:22:03.399 --> 01:22:05.960 own interests. It's not because we love them, right, and 1708 01:22:06.079 --> 01:22:07.720 Israel is the same way. I'm not making it, I'm 1709 01:22:07.720 --> 01:22:09.560 not defending them, but I'm just saying, like, you cannot 1710 01:22:09.560 --> 01:22:11.359 expect them to share the raw stuff because that's just 1711 01:22:11.439 --> 01:22:14.640 not how it happens. Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. So that 1712 01:22:14.720 --> 01:22:17.079 means that we probably got some biased intelligence about the 1713 01:22:17.079 --> 01:22:19.479 situation on the ground in Iran. 1714 01:22:19.680 --> 01:22:24.319 So I mean we had like the National Assessment intelligence 1715 01:22:24.359 --> 01:22:28.439 assessment that was obviously flying in the like you know, 1716 01:22:28.479 --> 01:22:30.840 going up against what Israel was giving us and telling 1717 01:22:30.920 --> 01:22:34.000 us over the last like year or so, or obviously 1718 01:22:34.039 --> 01:22:36.600 probably before June or twenty five after when we hit 1719 01:22:37.720 --> 01:22:42.800 the nuclear reactors, saying that they weren't I mean, they 1720 01:22:42.920 --> 01:22:45.520 had enriched geranium so sixty percent, but they weren't actively 1721 01:22:45.560 --> 01:22:48.760 going at it. And the weaponization part was still like 1722 01:22:48.800 --> 01:22:53.000 a year or so away, And particularly after the bombing 1723 01:22:53.840 --> 01:22:56.880 in June of twenty twenty five, when we obliterated quote 1724 01:22:56.920 --> 01:23:00.920 unquote their nuclear program, you know, there was no indication 1725 01:23:00.960 --> 01:23:06.520 of any enrichment whatsoever anymore. So why don't we go 1726 01:23:06.600 --> 01:23:08.079 into Iran this time? 1727 01:23:09.399 --> 01:23:13.079 Yeah? So there's these deeply buried facilities that Jack was mentioning. 1728 01:23:13.119 --> 01:23:14.760 We had this whole program about like how do we 1729 01:23:14.800 --> 01:23:17.840 penetrate these deeply buried assets and how do we use 1730 01:23:17.880 --> 01:23:20.039 either weapons to do that or how do we breach them. 1731 01:23:20.720 --> 01:23:23.199 There's like a whole you know, package designed for these 1732 01:23:23.239 --> 01:23:25.479 types of activities. There's a whole element within Jaysock that 1733 01:23:25.520 --> 01:23:28.880 does this. And the reason they had designed that is 1734 01:23:28.880 --> 01:23:31.479 because they thought that that threat was real. Right. Sometimes 1735 01:23:31.479 --> 01:23:33.039 when you have a tool, you want to use it. 1736 01:23:33.479 --> 01:23:36.079 And when someone comes to you and says Hey, that threat, 1737 01:23:36.239 --> 01:23:38.840 that thing you have that you can use, that threat exists, 1738 01:23:38.960 --> 01:23:41.159 you should use it. And I'm not I'm kind of 1739 01:23:41.159 --> 01:23:43.720 oversimplifying here, but that's kind of how the case was 1740 01:23:43.720 --> 01:23:45.840 made to the United States that you have an opportunity, 1741 01:23:45.840 --> 01:23:48.279 You have a one time opportunity. Right now. The regime 1742 01:23:48.359 --> 01:23:51.199 is weak, their air defenses are poor. We have we 1743 01:23:51.239 --> 01:23:53.479 can create air superiorities that you can go in there 1744 01:23:53.479 --> 01:23:55.199 and destroy this and you can have a win, just 1745 01:23:55.239 --> 01:23:57.600 like you had in Venezuela. This is how it was 1746 01:23:57.640 --> 01:24:02.119 framed and it was believed. And again, we don't have 1747 01:24:02.199 --> 01:24:04.560 human assets in Iran the way that we used to, 1748 01:24:04.920 --> 01:24:07.319 so we couldn't really verify even if we wanted to, 1749 01:24:07.760 --> 01:24:10.279 We couldn't easily verify that that was true. Like to 1750 01:24:10.319 --> 01:24:13.000 be able to know what's going on in underground facility, 1751 01:24:13.039 --> 01:24:16.560 you can't really rely on segant, Right, these are deep things. 1752 01:24:16.600 --> 01:24:18.119 You cannot even if someone brought a cell phone in there, 1753 01:24:18.159 --> 01:24:20.399 the cell phone won't work because it just can't. There's 1754 01:24:20.439 --> 01:24:23.239 no transmission between that person and outside the facility. 1755 01:24:23.319 --> 01:24:23.520 Right. 1756 01:24:24.000 --> 01:24:25.199 If you've ever been in a tunnel that you know, 1757 01:24:25.239 --> 01:24:27.279 you understand how this works. That means you need a 1758 01:24:27.319 --> 01:24:29.800 human source to go in there, or use measurement and 1759 01:24:29.800 --> 01:24:34.479 signature intelligence or Amazon't to measure soil movement density, the 1760 01:24:34.520 --> 01:24:37.079 weight of vehicles, did different things like that, But that 1761 01:24:37.119 --> 01:24:41.199 can only give you inferential information. You can't make deductions 1762 01:24:41.319 --> 01:24:44.640 based on mazont alone. You have to have human to 1763 01:24:44.680 --> 01:24:50.279 corroborate the Mazon't. Well, Israel's the human. We have the Mazont. 1764 01:24:50.520 --> 01:24:52.640 We can see that earth has been moved. We can 1765 01:24:52.680 --> 01:24:55.720 see that very heavy vehicles that are heavier now than 1766 01:24:55.720 --> 01:24:58.439 they were when they got there have left. So we 1767 01:24:58.479 --> 01:25:00.760 can see that something has happened here. We need to 1768 01:25:00.760 --> 01:25:02.359 fill in the blanks. Well, Israel says, We'll fill the 1769 01:25:02.399 --> 01:25:05.159 blanks in for you. They're enriching uranium. 1770 01:25:05.319 --> 01:25:05.800 We know it. 1771 01:25:05.920 --> 01:25:09.800 Here's what we've collected and it was believed. And it's 1772 01:25:09.840 --> 01:25:11.920 hard because we can't just go recruit an asset today 1773 01:25:12.000 --> 01:25:13.199 and be like, hey man, can you go check that 1774 01:25:13.239 --> 01:25:15.239 out for me and let me know if that's true. Right, 1775 01:25:15.720 --> 01:25:18.039 It's super tough to verify this stuff. And we've talked 1776 01:25:18.039 --> 01:25:20.119 about this with battle damage assessment. Even during the war, 1777 01:25:20.560 --> 01:25:22.960 we don't really know if we've destroyed that transporter erector 1778 01:25:23.039 --> 01:25:26.800 launcher really until it fires another missile because we say, oh, 1779 01:25:26.800 --> 01:25:29.800 it wasn't actually destroyed, because you could blow up the tires, 1780 01:25:29.800 --> 01:25:32.520 you could damage the erector, you could damage part of 1781 01:25:32.520 --> 01:25:35.039 the tail fin. The thing's still going to go. You know, 1782 01:25:35.159 --> 01:25:37.159 It's really tough unless you have a guy there saying 1783 01:25:37.199 --> 01:25:40.600 like it's actually destroyed, or I'm the guy that operates it. 1784 01:25:40.760 --> 01:25:42.399 I'm not gonna hit the button because you're paying me 1785 01:25:42.399 --> 01:25:45.439 not to hit the button. Like that's human, right, So 1786 01:25:45.439 --> 01:25:47.079 there's like two different ways you could go after that. 1787 01:25:47.479 --> 01:25:49.800 We don't have any of that. In January, when this 1788 01:25:50.399 --> 01:25:54.640 delegation came to convince our country's leadership to go do 1789 01:25:54.720 --> 01:25:55.680 this operation, I. 1790 01:25:55.640 --> 01:25:59.239 Hear you, right, and like you obviously know that, and 1791 01:25:59.319 --> 01:26:01.800 that they're that their human intelligence that they would be 1792 01:26:01.800 --> 01:26:08.079 feeding us would be tainted or biased. Why didn't How 1793 01:26:08.119 --> 01:26:11.319 didn't they know that? Like how wasn't that taken into 1794 01:26:11.720 --> 01:26:15.279 into the assessment? I guess generally it was right, because 1795 01:26:15.279 --> 01:26:18.840 like the actual national intelligence assessment was like they're not 1796 01:26:18.880 --> 01:26:24.399 doing it, but in the room, like you know. That's 1797 01:26:24.399 --> 01:26:26.800 why I wanted to talk about the intelligence that led 1798 01:26:26.880 --> 01:26:30.800 up to this, because it seems kind of sort of 1799 01:26:30.840 --> 01:26:34.000 like Echoes of Iraq, but in a different type of 1800 01:26:34.039 --> 01:26:36.600 flavor and maybe a little like turbo charge a little bit. 1801 01:26:36.680 --> 01:26:40.520 But you know, and it's it's wild to me because 1802 01:26:40.520 --> 01:26:43.239 there's a lot of smart people out there doing this, 1803 01:26:43.520 --> 01:26:45.880 and how we can continue to make the same mistake 1804 01:26:46.239 --> 01:26:49.000 over and over and over again because we knew how 1805 01:26:49.000 --> 01:26:50.560 it would play out. Maybe we didn't know that they 1806 01:26:50.560 --> 01:26:53.520 would bomb the region. You know that all the all 1807 01:26:53.560 --> 01:26:55.520 of our bases and all of our allies in the region. 1808 01:26:56.079 --> 01:26:57.800 We knew that they would close the straight off hor moves. 1809 01:26:58.119 --> 01:26:58.640 We knew it. 1810 01:27:00.680 --> 01:27:04.199 Well, you are a policy decision that's already been made 1811 01:27:04.720 --> 01:27:10.000 in search of a WMD crisis to justify it, and 1812 01:27:10.079 --> 01:27:10.640 humans are. 1813 01:27:10.560 --> 01:27:12.960 Not mystic Iraq, go ahead, I'm sorry, Joe. 1814 01:27:13.119 --> 01:27:15.560 Well, humans are just so optimistic, like we see a problem, 1815 01:27:15.600 --> 01:27:17.199 we're like, no, it has to be the best outcome. 1816 01:27:17.520 --> 01:27:20.199 And it's very hard for us to like wind ourselves 1817 01:27:20.239 --> 01:27:21.640 down and be like, wait a minute, it might not 1818 01:27:21.680 --> 01:27:23.479 actually work out the way we hope it does. Like 1819 01:27:23.560 --> 01:27:26.479 look back to Desert one, nineteen eighty Operation Eagle Claw. 1820 01:27:26.920 --> 01:27:29.199 You know when they're briefing that to the president, that 1821 01:27:29.319 --> 01:27:31.239 is a wild operation. Like if you look at like 1822 01:27:31.239 --> 01:27:33.359 how it was designed, like this is crazy that you 1823 01:27:33.359 --> 01:27:35.760 guys have all these like logistics hubs and FARPs and 1824 01:27:36.079 --> 01:27:38.560 like there's no way, like even like getting to the 1825 01:27:38.560 --> 01:27:40.600 desert was incredible that they even got to the desert, 1826 01:27:40.760 --> 01:27:42.520 Like the desert was supposed to be a refueling point 1827 01:27:42.520 --> 01:27:44.920 where they continue to terran like hundreds of kilometers north 1828 01:27:44.960 --> 01:27:47.000 like you kidding me, But like people look at that 1829 01:27:47.039 --> 01:27:49.720 and they're like, this could work, guys, this could work, 1830 01:27:50.039 --> 01:27:51.840 you know. And it's very similar like when you all 1831 01:27:51.880 --> 01:27:53.640 want the same thing, it's like you don't need very 1832 01:27:53.720 --> 01:27:56.680 much pushing to go do it, you know. And and 1833 01:27:57.000 --> 01:27:59.680 Trump has wanted this, the people in National Security Council 1834 01:27:59.720 --> 01:28:02.600 have wanted this. Rubio, even though he probably doesn't like 1835 01:28:02.600 --> 01:28:05.079 the way the war is going, he's from a Cuban 1836 01:28:05.279 --> 01:28:08.359 family that fled from an authoritarian state, Like somewhere in 1837 01:28:08.399 --> 01:28:09.880 his soul he's like, we need to get rid of 1838 01:28:09.880 --> 01:28:12.760 these authoritarians like other bad guys, and oh there's a 1839 01:28:12.760 --> 01:28:14.359 threat right now, we should go do something about that, 1840 01:28:14.359 --> 01:28:15.960 you know. So and I think there was only what 1841 01:28:16.000 --> 01:28:17.640 eight guys in the room on the US side when 1842 01:28:17.640 --> 01:28:20.560 this was briefed, Like there weren't experts sitting there to 1843 01:28:20.640 --> 01:28:22.520 like say, hold on guys, have you thought about this? 1844 01:28:23.119 --> 01:28:25.560 Or guys that at least had served in Sentcom during 1845 01:28:25.720 --> 01:28:27.359 the Gulf War and they were like, hey, we remember 1846 01:28:27.399 --> 01:28:29.760 this back. You remember back at their tanker war nineteen 1847 01:28:29.800 --> 01:28:32.279 eighty eight when we had Operation Praying Mantis and we 1848 01:28:32.319 --> 01:28:34.239 had to like try to reflag the Kuwaiti vessels and 1849 01:28:34.239 --> 01:28:35.760 protect them in the straits of Horror moves and that 1850 01:28:35.800 --> 01:28:38.000 didn't work out very well, and we accidentally shot down 1851 01:28:38.000 --> 01:28:40.720 a civilian aircraft with one of our aircraft carriers, Like 1852 01:28:40.760 --> 01:28:42.960 you remember, you remember that? Like there wasn't anyone in 1853 01:28:43.039 --> 01:28:45.000 the room to like bring that up and like remind 1854 01:28:45.000 --> 01:28:47.760 them of this. These were civilian leaders, which is how 1855 01:28:47.760 --> 01:28:50.720 our government designed civilian leadership. Sitting there without any expertise. 1856 01:28:51.640 --> 01:28:54.239 There wasn't like the depth of bench of National Security 1857 01:28:54.279 --> 01:28:56.840 Council advisors in there that you would expect. It was 1858 01:28:57.239 --> 01:28:59.840 people that just don't understand the problem. Hearing people that 1859 01:28:59.840 --> 01:29:03.079 the trust as experts, which is the Israeli briefers, telling 1860 01:29:03.119 --> 01:29:06.000 them like this is real. You guys can probably win 1861 01:29:06.720 --> 01:29:09.359 pretty good chance, you know, and even with intelligence, like 1862 01:29:09.359 --> 01:29:11.920 it's never one hundred percent, even if we have great, 1863 01:29:12.079 --> 01:29:14.079 great data, you still never know, Like there could always 1864 01:29:14.079 --> 01:29:15.720 be some black swan event that comes up and like 1865 01:29:15.800 --> 01:29:19.840 disrupts this whole thing. You know, I mentioned the Tito's Partisans, 1866 01:29:19.880 --> 01:29:23.960 like they luckily succeeded. Wasn't necessarily going to be that way, 1867 01:29:24.079 --> 01:29:27.560 you know. So these guys went in there and basically 1868 01:29:27.640 --> 01:29:30.840 convinced some layman with a lot of power to do 1869 01:29:30.920 --> 01:29:32.560 something that was probably a bad idea. 1870 01:29:33.600 --> 01:29:35.199 And where does that leave us today? 1871 01:29:35.239 --> 01:29:38.479 That it seems like I know, people are maybe allergic 1872 01:29:38.520 --> 01:29:40.680 to the term forever war, and maybe I don't want 1873 01:29:40.680 --> 01:29:43.319 to go that far myself, but it does seem like 1874 01:29:43.399 --> 01:29:45.800 a war that has as of now, no end state, 1875 01:29:45.960 --> 01:29:49.600 there's no strategic end goal. And is it just going 1876 01:29:49.680 --> 01:29:53.680 to continue on until the next administration when they negotiate 1877 01:29:53.760 --> 01:29:56.199 some sort of settlement. I mean, what do you how 1878 01:29:56.199 --> 01:29:58.239 do you see this playing out over the next couple 1879 01:29:58.279 --> 01:29:58.680 of years. 1880 01:29:59.479 --> 01:30:01.359 The way it's right now, it looks like the regime 1881 01:30:01.439 --> 01:30:03.560 is going to be stronger than it was when the 1882 01:30:03.560 --> 01:30:06.960 war started. But before the war started, I mean, and 1883 01:30:07.279 --> 01:30:09.600 that's a result of how we are handling the situation. 1884 01:30:09.680 --> 01:30:12.880 We the West, we the United States. There's still opportunity 1885 01:30:13.000 --> 01:30:15.640 to turn things around if we had the political acumen 1886 01:30:15.720 --> 01:30:17.279 to do so, but it seems that we're not willing 1887 01:30:17.319 --> 01:30:21.000 to use that acumen. Instead, it's it's very hard for 1888 01:30:21.079 --> 01:30:22.600 us to admit that we might have been wrong about 1889 01:30:22.600 --> 01:30:25.560 something we did and turn left or turn right and 1890 01:30:25.640 --> 01:30:28.680 go the other way. Instead, we're kind of digging our heels. 1891 01:30:28.880 --> 01:30:31.520 And I, like I mentioned, I was talking about Iranian 1892 01:30:31.560 --> 01:30:33.399 this morning and he was he was talking about the war, 1893 01:30:33.399 --> 01:30:35.520 and I was telling him, like, you haven't heard them 1894 01:30:35.520 --> 01:30:39.840 mention the Iranian people recently, have you? No, it's about 1895 01:30:39.880 --> 01:30:42.720 the straits of Hormus. Suddenly, wasn't it about the ballistic 1896 01:30:42.760 --> 01:30:45.079 missiles at the beginning, wasn't about the nuclear program? Like 1897 01:30:45.119 --> 01:30:47.079 what happened to all those objectives? It was so hard 1898 01:30:47.119 --> 01:30:48.920 to even hear what the objectives were in the beginning, 1899 01:30:49.439 --> 01:30:51.640 and now it's like the objectives are just a new 1900 01:30:51.720 --> 01:30:52.479 set of objectives. 1901 01:30:52.520 --> 01:30:54.880 There weren't very many objectives either. I remember when they 1902 01:30:54.920 --> 01:30:58.720 first we first started bombing them in February twenty eighth, 1903 01:30:58.840 --> 01:31:01.920 like we didn't know what the plan was. There was 1904 01:31:01.960 --> 01:31:04.800 no plan, there was no actual I guess like they 1905 01:31:04.800 --> 01:31:07.319 had targets. And I think what they're doing is cherry picking, 1906 01:31:07.399 --> 01:31:12.439 like Sandcom, Like what Sandcom's picking to kill and being like, oh, yeah, 1907 01:31:12.439 --> 01:31:15.119 that's our that's our strategy. Inst like we're blowing up 1908 01:31:15.119 --> 01:31:17.560 ballistic missiles or we're blown up where they build ballistic 1909 01:31:17.640 --> 01:31:20.960 missiles on the ground or navy ships. So we took 1910 01:31:20.960 --> 01:31:23.399 out their navy. We took out their ballistic missiles. Meanwhile, 1911 01:31:23.399 --> 01:31:26.399 we have it, you know, at least like they've reconstituted it. 1912 01:31:27.319 --> 01:31:30.279 You know, we've got nowhere and we see plus stuck 1913 01:31:30.279 --> 01:31:31.640 in this escalation spiral. 1914 01:31:31.840 --> 01:31:34.239 That's the other problem is at Sencom, Like you've got 1915 01:31:34.239 --> 01:31:36.800 these spreadsheets with targets on them, right, some of those 1916 01:31:36.800 --> 01:31:39.119 targets were put on that spreadsheet in like nineteen ninety 1917 01:31:39.119 --> 01:31:41.840 three and they haven't been validated, and they just like 1918 01:31:41.840 --> 01:31:44.039 get turned over and turned over, and these spreadsheets are 1919 01:31:44.039 --> 01:31:46.159 just like continuing through like this is how targeting works. 1920 01:31:46.199 --> 01:31:48.239 You're like, Okay, what's the great coordinate for this location? 1921 01:31:48.359 --> 01:31:50.600 Is that still valid? We think so, like it's still 1922 01:31:50.640 --> 01:31:52.319 physically there. I can see it on the imagery, like 1923 01:31:52.359 --> 01:31:54.239 let's blow it up. But you have no idea if 1924 01:31:54.239 --> 01:31:55.840 that thing is still what you think it was back 1925 01:31:55.840 --> 01:31:57.199 then when you put that on the spreadsheet. 1926 01:31:57.279 --> 01:31:59.520 Blew up that that girls' school. 1927 01:31:59.640 --> 01:32:01.359 I mean you can even see the satellite imagery of 1928 01:32:01.399 --> 01:32:04.239 that school, like in the past five years, how it's 1929 01:32:04.279 --> 01:32:06.439 been built up around that facility that we were trying 1930 01:32:06.479 --> 01:32:08.119 to strike, and like we just didn't have We didn't 1931 01:32:08.199 --> 01:32:11.159 use that imagery. We used a spreadsheet that said this 1932 01:32:11.239 --> 01:32:14.680 is an IRGC target, and we struck on Google. 1933 01:32:14.840 --> 01:32:17.840 It actually says something whatever school, you know. 1934 01:32:18.119 --> 01:32:19.960 Yeah, but we don't use Google. We use our own 1935 01:32:20.000 --> 01:32:23.880 proprietary you know stuff. And the way it's literally a 1936 01:32:23.880 --> 01:32:25.960 spreadsheet that has like the targeting on it. It's got 1937 01:32:26.000 --> 01:32:27.840 the MGRS, the tended to grid on it, and like 1938 01:32:27.920 --> 01:32:30.520 some other stuff on there, and you're like, this looks 1939 01:32:30.520 --> 01:32:32.199 like a target. And we did the same thing in 1940 01:32:32.319 --> 01:32:34.560 Operation Allied Force in nineteen ninety nine. We bombed the 1941 01:32:34.640 --> 01:32:37.279 Chinese embassy by accident because we had a grid that 1942 01:32:37.319 --> 01:32:40.119 we thought was an enemy grid and it was wrong. 1943 01:32:40.439 --> 01:32:42.600 It was it was like a number off and we 1944 01:32:42.920 --> 01:32:44.640 didn't validate the target. We just blew it up. 1945 01:32:44.720 --> 01:32:47.199 Oh yeah, yeah, I don't know. I didn't even think 1946 01:32:47.199 --> 01:32:48.680 about an ending to this show. 1947 01:32:48.880 --> 01:32:51.760 But uh, well there is no ending, just like the war. 1948 01:32:52.159 --> 01:32:54.600 Yeah, it's still going. We're actually on day six now 1949 01:32:54.640 --> 01:32:59.039 of continuous bombing every night by the US into Iran 1950 01:32:59.119 --> 01:33:04.840 and Iran shooting and missiles at you know, our allies, 1951 01:33:04.880 --> 01:33:07.520 our bases and stuff. I mean I I in a 1952 01:33:07.560 --> 01:33:09.600 few years from now, when this actual comes out, like 1953 01:33:09.640 --> 01:33:14.239 the actualist battle damage assessment comes out, I would not 1954 01:33:14.279 --> 01:33:16.119 be surprised if it was like twenty or thirty billion 1955 01:33:16.159 --> 01:33:18.399 dollars worth of damage like on our radar systems and 1956 01:33:18.439 --> 01:33:21.079 everything like that. And around the area. Our fifth Fleet 1957 01:33:22.119 --> 01:33:26.560 HQ is essentially fucking abandoned. You know, our aircraft carriers 1958 01:33:26.560 --> 01:33:28.600 are hanging out like three hundred and fifty miles into 1959 01:33:28.640 --> 01:33:32.560 the Gulf of Aman. Yeah, you know they're not We're 1960 01:33:32.600 --> 01:33:37.119 not exactly showing our you know, walking around. Yeah, we're 1961 01:33:37.119 --> 01:33:40.560 not strutting around at all. We're at a safe distance. 1962 01:33:41.039 --> 01:33:44.840 And it's it almost makes you think, like, what's the 1963 01:33:45.319 --> 01:33:47.359 what's the actual point I know, not just of our 1964 01:33:47.840 --> 01:33:51.159 aircraft carriers, but in terms of like projecting power in 1965 01:33:51.199 --> 01:33:51.600 any way. 1966 01:33:51.760 --> 01:33:54.319 Right, Yes, we've got the Navy can't secure freedom of 1967 01:33:54.439 --> 01:33:56.439 navigation through the strengths of her moves. 1968 01:33:56.520 --> 01:33:59.720 It's like, why do we have a navy? Explain that 1969 01:33:59.720 --> 01:34:03.079 to me, especially aircraft carriers. 1970 01:34:03.680 --> 01:34:06.680 Yeah, makes no sense. It's just a big target. It's 1971 01:34:06.680 --> 01:34:10.159 a big target. It's a big target that's got probably 1972 01:34:10.399 --> 01:34:14.239 thirty billion dollars of hardware on it, plus five thousand people. 1973 01:34:15.119 --> 01:34:18.439 But hey, it gave people jobs in Virginia to manufacture it. 1974 01:34:19.159 --> 01:34:23.399 Yeah, it's pro economy, it's pro business. Good god, guys, 1975 01:34:23.399 --> 01:34:25.479 I never feel good better about these ever. I think 1976 01:34:25.520 --> 01:34:28.079 I'm done. I think I'm gonna quit this show. I'm 1977 01:34:28.079 --> 01:34:30.039 gonna do like a good news show. We're gonna talk 1978 01:34:30.079 --> 01:34:32.439 about like dogs getting adopted and shit like that, or 1979 01:34:32.479 --> 01:34:36.520 like a cancer or like cancer research that's working out, 1980 01:34:36.560 --> 01:34:39.920 and like people you might cure cancer because this this. 1981 01:34:40.199 --> 01:34:41.600 I mean, I don't even know how you guys worked 1982 01:34:41.640 --> 01:34:44.960 in this fucking business, to be honest, it's ridiculous. 1983 01:34:46.359 --> 01:34:47.319 Yeah, it's pretty crazy. 1984 01:34:47.479 --> 01:34:52.000 Yeah, it's fucking crazy, all right, So obviously we'll keep 1985 01:34:52.039 --> 01:34:56.760 our eyes on it like that. There's so much more 1986 01:34:56.800 --> 01:34:59.439 we could get into. Obviously, we like basically just uh 1987 01:34:59.640 --> 01:35:02.319 gol aw still over most like of this fifty or more, 1988 01:35:02.520 --> 01:35:03.800 you know, one hundred year history. 1989 01:35:06.239 --> 01:35:08.039 Thanks thanks, John, I mean you covered a lot of 1990 01:35:08.039 --> 01:35:09.680 ground in an hour and a half here. 1991 01:35:10.039 --> 01:35:11.720 Yeah, sorry for all the tangents, but I think the 1992 01:35:11.760 --> 01:35:13.000 context is super important. 1993 01:35:13.239 --> 01:35:17.399 Yeah, you're right. Yeah, the context is extremely important. You 1994 01:35:17.399 --> 01:35:22.159 guys want to read more. John's book Iran Shadow Weapons Incredible, 1995 01:35:23.000 --> 01:35:27.399 really goes into and shows you just you know, the 1996 01:35:27.439 --> 01:35:30.520 Iranians are working on a pretty They're pretty sophisticated bunch. 1997 01:35:31.279 --> 01:35:33.720 I'm not gonna lie to you know. So for us 1998 01:35:33.760 --> 01:35:36.079 to like underestimate them, which is what we've seem to 1999 01:35:36.119 --> 01:35:39.039 have done, has seemed to be a huge blunder, a 2000 01:35:39.119 --> 01:35:43.640 huge blunder, of course, Jack Murphy, The Most Dangerous Man 2001 01:35:43.880 --> 01:35:47.840 book is out now on Amazon, New York Times bestseller. 2002 01:35:49.079 --> 01:35:51.600 We can hope, no, no, we just once you say it, 2003 01:35:51.600 --> 01:35:53.159 it's true, so manifest. 2004 01:35:53.560 --> 01:35:56.800 Yeah, yeah, I'm a former New York Times bestseller, so 2005 01:35:56.840 --> 01:35:58.279 I can legitimately say so. 2006 01:35:58.359 --> 01:36:01.680 Yeah, I'm not even lying, Yeah, Jack, New York Times bestseller. 2007 01:36:01.319 --> 01:36:03.239 But not this book as far as I know. 2008 01:36:03.760 --> 01:36:05.800 The new book is called The Most Dangerous Man. It's 2009 01:36:05.800 --> 01:36:09.079 a lot of fun, It's incredible. Check that out and 2010 01:36:09.600 --> 01:36:11.840 do us a favor and go to our Patreon Patreon 2011 01:36:11.880 --> 01:36:14.840 dot com Slash the Teamhouse you get both Eyes On 2012 01:36:15.199 --> 01:36:18.640 and Teamhouse episodes, ad Free and Early. Of course, Jack 2013 01:36:18.720 --> 01:36:20.680 has the High Side with Sean Naylor where they do 2014 01:36:20.680 --> 01:36:24.800 a deep dive, investigative articles, incredible stuff. All those links 2015 01:36:24.840 --> 01:36:26.920 are in the description. If you want to DM the 2016 01:36:26.960 --> 01:36:28.560 guys and tell them you love them, you can go 2017 01:36:28.600 --> 01:36:32.359 to the links and do that. Don't DM me because 2018 01:36:32.399 --> 01:36:35.920 I don't love you. All right, A pleasure, guys, as always, 2019 01:36:36.000 --> 01:36:37.239 Thank you, all right, Thanks. 2020 01:36:36.960 --> 01:36:42.720 Guys, See you guys. 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