WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:03.560 Hey there, fellow travelers. Our twenty twenty five Silmrillion journey 2 00:00:03.600 --> 00:00:06.879 continues with chapter ten of Quintus Silmarillion of the Cendar. 3 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:10.439 The Noldor, led by Feanor, have re entered Bellarion in 4 00:00:10.480 --> 00:00:13.679 pursuit of more goth than the Silmuriles. This chapter brings 5 00:00:13.759 --> 00:00:15.800 us up to speed with the Elves that already inhabit 6 00:00:15.839 --> 00:00:20.120 belleriond especially the people of king Elwei Thingle aka the Cendar, 7 00:00:20.559 --> 00:00:22.719 and what has transpired in the long span of years 8 00:00:22.760 --> 00:00:26.600 since their brethren departed Bellerion for the Blessed Realm. Over 9 00:00:26.600 --> 00:00:29.199 the next several months, will continue revisiting the entire thirty 10 00:00:29.239 --> 00:00:32.119 episode Silmarillion series that Greta and I recorded back in 11 00:00:32.119 --> 00:00:36.079 twenty twenty two. While you're listening, check out Silmguide dot com. 12 00:00:36.119 --> 00:00:40.320 That's si lmguide dot com for guides to individual chapters. 13 00:00:40.679 --> 00:00:43.000 You can find that link in the show notes. To 14 00:00:43.079 --> 00:00:45.920 support our work here, please visit Patreon dot com slash 15 00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:50.320 Tolkien Road Enjoy. Hey there, fellow travelers, Welcome to the 16 00:00:50.359 --> 00:00:54.399 Tolkien Road. Episode two eighty nine. Greta, Hey, we meet again. 17 00:00:55.000 --> 00:01:00.240 Indeed, indeed we do. That's amazing We're meeting. 18 00:01:01.359 --> 00:01:03.560 In this episode we will be discussing Chapter ten of 19 00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:07.879 the Selm Million of the Sun Our. Before we get started, 20 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:09.359 we'd like to give a double up air five to 21 00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:13.719 our patrons. Get those hands up. You've been duly warned. 22 00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:18.079 Three two one, Oh hope you got them up there. 23 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:19.560 There we go. 24 00:01:19.799 --> 00:01:21.799 Need the vibes, There we go, We. 25 00:01:21.760 --> 00:01:22.519 All need es. 26 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:26.640 Special thanks to this episode's executive producers, John R. Caitlin 27 00:01:26.680 --> 00:01:28.519 of t with Tolkien and Jacob Lockham. 28 00:01:28.879 --> 00:01:29.560 Thanks guys. 29 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:33.040 Become a patron by visiting patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road. 30 00:01:33.319 --> 00:01:35.760 Doing so get you cool perks like twenty percent off 31 00:01:35.799 --> 00:01:39.799 of everything at truemthspress dot com. Plus, your financial support 32 00:01:39.799 --> 00:01:42.799 helps keep the Tolkien Road to keep on everring on. 33 00:01:43.319 --> 00:01:45.480 Let's start start again. Plus your financial support helps the 34 00:01:45.480 --> 00:01:47.599 Tolien Road to keep on evering on. Got it right? 35 00:01:47.640 --> 00:01:50.280 At that time? It's the morning time again people, So 36 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:53.840 you know man? All right? Learn more at patreon dot 37 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:58.079 com slash Tolkien Road. If you're on YouTube, hit that 38 00:01:58.239 --> 00:02:00.400 like button and don't forget to subscribe and let us 39 00:02:00.439 --> 00:02:03.920 know what's on your mind and the comments below. All right, 40 00:02:04.040 --> 00:02:07.359 And hey, Greta, we gotta I forgot to ask you 41 00:02:07.359 --> 00:02:09.400 about this before we started. Can we do live stream 42 00:02:09.400 --> 00:02:12.240 on Thursday April twenty eighth, Thursday this week? Next week? 43 00:02:13.879 --> 00:02:15.759 I think we have something that night. 44 00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:17.840 Do we I think we do. What do we have 45 00:02:18.319 --> 00:02:19.240 because I don't see it? 46 00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:22.479 Oh, I think we have an event. 47 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:27.120 An event m hmm for Chester ten. Oh okay, well 48 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:29.960 more to follow, more to follow on when we'll be 49 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:33.319 scheduling that. So disregard. I meant to ask Greda about that, 50 00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:35.240 but we're in kind of a we're in a little 51 00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:37.479 bit of a not a rush, but just had to 52 00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:39.680 get down to had to get down to business this morning, 53 00:02:39.919 --> 00:02:41.400 so got a schedule to keep. 54 00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:44.159 Yes, So but we will do a live stream. 55 00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:46.560 We will do a live stream or well, we'll get 56 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:49.719 it all worked out when that's gonna happen. All right, Well, 57 00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:51.560 let's dive on in to chapter ten. 58 00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:55.000 Yes for chapter ten already. 59 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:55.520 Yeah. 60 00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:58.840 Well we're just you know, making our way through. 61 00:02:58.680 --> 00:02:59.639 Making it happen. Yeah. 62 00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:01.719 I feel it's been a much easier read this time. 63 00:03:02.039 --> 00:03:03.439 Well that'll happen when you read it before. 64 00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:06.039 I just remember, like it's not as so much as 65 00:03:06.039 --> 00:03:08.080 it's just easier, But it's like I'm enjoying it a 66 00:03:08.120 --> 00:03:10.319 lot more too. Yeah, Like last time it felt like 67 00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:13.120 a chore, but this time I'm like, oh, I can't 68 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:13.919 wait to read this summer. 69 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:16.240 Really, it's definitely one of those books that rewards you 70 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:19.719 upon more and more upon, you know, repeated reads. Right, 71 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:22.840 So you know there are some that there's some books 72 00:03:22.879 --> 00:03:24.319 that like you read them the first time and it's 73 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:27.960 just you know, it's so good, but then maybe you 74 00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:29.520 read it a couple more times and not so much. 75 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:32.280 This is the reverse of that to silm Rellion challenge 76 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:35.719 at first, but once you've you know, you're on your second, third, 77 00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:38.759 fourth read, it just gets better and better and better. 78 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:43.280 All right, let's let's hit this quote of the week, 79 00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:48.520 shall we. All right, but if bliss and glad life, 80 00:03:48.599 --> 00:03:51.400 there is little to be said before it ends as 81 00:03:51.479 --> 00:03:53.879 works fair and wonderful. While they still they endure for 82 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:56.560 eyes to see, are their own record, and only when 83 00:03:56.560 --> 00:03:58.919 they were in peril or broken forever do they pass 84 00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:03.000 into song. That that quote really jumped out at me 85 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:07.919 from this chapter. It kind of encapsulates the uh, you know, 86 00:04:07.960 --> 00:04:11.319 the idea that this this area of Balarion had its 87 00:04:11.360 --> 00:04:16.759 own long age of peace, if you will, And really 88 00:04:16.759 --> 00:04:18.720 there's not a whole lot that Tolkien has to say 89 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:20.480 about that other than just like it was really peaceful 90 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:23.720 for a long time, but it doesn't seem to last forever. 91 00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:26.560 No, So I thought I thought it was interesting. I 92 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:30.079 like this quote too, because I think it was it's 93 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:32.120 really kind of interesting where it says, and only when 94 00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:34.720 they are in peril or broken forever do they pass 95 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:38.199 into song. Like it just made me think, like that's 96 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:43.319 so true. Like I feel like we talk about like 97 00:04:43.319 --> 00:04:46.439 like when things are good and when you're enjoying them, 98 00:04:46.519 --> 00:04:51.040 like you don't really think about memorializing or or really 99 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:53.839 writing it down. Yeah, that's when things are hard and 100 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:57.240 when and when things start to go south, that that 101 00:04:57.240 --> 00:05:01.079 that that's when you start to to remember the good times. 102 00:05:01.399 --> 00:05:06.720 Yeah, yeah, unfortunately that's true. Unfortunately that's true. Right, But 103 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:09.240 it seems to be the nature of the good times 104 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:11.759 and the nature of the bad times is that you 105 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:15.600 tend to uh, well, you tend to remember. I don't know. 106 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:18.800 That's a very pessimistic way of putting it, but you know, 107 00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:20.959 I get what he's saying. I get what he's saying 108 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:22.639 here anyway, right, Uh yeah, I. 109 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:24.680 Didn't mean to be pessimistic. I was just saying that 110 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:26.519 that's just kind of when we're in the good times, 111 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:29.079 we tend to take them for granted, right, and then 112 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:32.920 when things were, like, you know, aren't as good, it's easy. 113 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:35.319 That's when you begin to think, like, oh man, we 114 00:05:35.399 --> 00:05:36.600 had a really good back then. 115 00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:39.639 Yeah, thing about it, you know, yeah, yeah for sure. 116 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:41.040 Yeah. 117 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:45.879 All right, Well, let's get into chapter ten, shall we, 118 00:05:46.920 --> 00:05:50.000 all right? In chapter ten, the perspective shifts from the 119 00:05:50.040 --> 00:05:53.000 Blessed Realm to Bealarion, where it will remain for the 120 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:55.800 rest of the Silmarillion. We jump back to where we 121 00:05:55.879 --> 00:05:59.360 left Bealarion, at the point when the Vanyard, Noldor, and 122 00:05:59.399 --> 00:06:02.800 Hilarry all departed, leaving behind some of their brethren, who 123 00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:06.439 become known as the Cindar, and take the Tillary Lord 124 00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:09.399 Elway as their king and the Maya Melian as their queen. 125 00:06:10.279 --> 00:06:12.759 In chapter ten, we'll learn of the Sendar, the brethren 126 00:06:12.759 --> 00:06:15.800 of the Tilary that remained behind in BALARIOND, of the 127 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:18.839 creation of Minnagroth, the grand palace of the sendaran king 128 00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:23.240 thingle of the coming of the dwarves to BEALERIOND of 129 00:06:23.319 --> 00:06:27.079 the nandorinolves of the return of Melcor to Middle Earth 130 00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:29.560 in the first Great Battle of BELLERIOND and much more 131 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:34.160 so luck going on in this chapter. Again, Yeah, just 132 00:06:34.199 --> 00:06:36.920 a disclaimer, as with each episode, we won't be covering 133 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:39.040 every detail of this chapter, but instead doing our best 134 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:41.920 to hit the high points and unpack interesting and important details. 135 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:45.000 If we miss something, you guys want to discuss more, 136 00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:48.720 let us know. Great place to do that to keep 137 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:51.120 the conversation going is in the comments on YouTube. So 138 00:06:52.399 --> 00:06:57.360 all right, So, as I've been doing, we're talking about 139 00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:00.639 I'm trying to give a timeline for for each of 140 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:04.439 the chapters in the Selm Million. So far, I've been 141 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:07.600 using History of middle Earth Chapter ten to do that, 142 00:07:08.199 --> 00:07:10.800 and actually this week and really going forward, we're gonna 143 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:12.720 be using History of Middle Earth Chapter eleven, The War 144 00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:14.839 of the Jewels to do that. And the reason for 145 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:19.319 that is is that chapter ten or volume ten, really 146 00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:24.480 focuses on the stories of the Blessed Realm, almost like 147 00:07:24.519 --> 00:07:27.120 the first half of the Summarllion. It really focuses on 148 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:30.759 that first half of the Sulm Million and the timeline 149 00:07:30.839 --> 00:07:33.040 there in the development of those stories after Lord of 150 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:36.680 the Rings, and then volume eleven focuses on the development 151 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:38.519 of the second half of the Selm million after the 152 00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:41.600 Lord of the Rings. So and you know, we kind 153 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:43.720 of think about that as like volume ten is focused 154 00:07:43.720 --> 00:07:47.160 on the Blessed Realm, Volume eleven is focused on Valerion, right. 155 00:07:49.399 --> 00:07:52.199 So the dividing line between chapters ten or Volumes ten 156 00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:58.639 and eleven History of Middle Earth is the Great Sea. So, uh, timeline, 157 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:00.720 where what are the years? And can we kind of 158 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:04.160 compare them to the timeline that we've been using from 159 00:08:04.319 --> 00:08:06.439 volume ten, And the answer is yes, we can compare them. 160 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:09.680 So really this takes place between the Year of the 161 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:12.879 Trees twelve hundred and fourteen ninety seven, so a very 162 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:19.000 long two hundred and ninety seven tree year period, which 163 00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:24.439 equates to twenty nine hundred and seventy years sun years, right, 164 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:29.759 as we would reckon them. So and just to kind 165 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:34.559 of frame that again, Melcor goes into captivity in the 166 00:08:34.639 --> 00:08:37.559 year eleven hundred, Year of the Trees eleven hundred, right. 167 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:39.519 He's taken into captivity roughly around the years of the 168 00:08:39.559 --> 00:08:46.120 year eleven hundred, and his captivity lasts for three ages, 169 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:48.679 which an age is one hundred year tree years, right, 170 00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:51.519 So it lasts from eleven hundred to fourteen hundred of 171 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:56.759 the years of the Trees. We pick up the story 172 00:08:56.919 --> 00:09:00.480 here in the year twelve hundred years of the Trees. Okay, 173 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:04.840 so the elves had become had begun to make their 174 00:09:04.919 --> 00:09:10.879 journey to the Blessed Realm between eleven hundred and twelve hundred, 175 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:14.720 all right, of the years of the Trees. During that 176 00:09:14.759 --> 00:09:19.919 period is when Thingle goes into his trance, when he 177 00:09:19.960 --> 00:09:23.320 sees Melion, right, he goes into his trance and he 178 00:09:23.320 --> 00:09:28.759 doesn't actually come out of it until until it's like 179 00:09:28.759 --> 00:09:30.799 a twenty year period something like that. That he that 180 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:33.519 he's in that twenty three year period, so it's actually 181 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:36.679 two undred years, and he comes out of that, and 182 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:40.120 then he starts to lead the Sindar, right, those those 183 00:09:40.120 --> 00:09:43.159 of the elves who remain behind. But let's dive into 184 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:45.360 just the story of the Sindar here, all right, just 185 00:09:45.399 --> 00:09:48.399 a quick quick summary, just to refamiliarize ourselves with who 186 00:09:48.399 --> 00:09:53.919 the Cindar actually are. Gota, would you read this sure now? 187 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:56.759 As has been told, the power of Elway and Melon 188 00:09:56.919 --> 00:09:59.799 increased in Middle Earth, and all the elves of Balion, 189 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:02.840 from the mariners of Kirnon to the wandering hunters or 190 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:06.639 the Blue Mountains beyond the river. Geleon owned Elway as 191 00:10:06.679 --> 00:10:10.960 their lord, Elu Thingle. He was called King Gray Mantle 192 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:13.799 in the tongue of his people. They are called the Sindar, 193 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:17.600 the gray elves of Starlit Bellarion. And although they were 194 00:10:17.600 --> 00:10:20.200 more Quindi, under the lordship of Fingal and the teaching 195 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:22.919 of Melion, they became the fairs and the most wise 196 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:25.519 and skillful of all the elves of Middle Earth. 197 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:29.120 Yeah. So these are the elves that they made it 198 00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:31.559 all the way to Bellerion, but they never they never 199 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:33.799 took the final journey. And most of them are Tillary. 200 00:10:34.440 --> 00:10:39.200 Most of them are of the same house as the Tillary. Right, So, 201 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:44.519 Elway meets Melon, is entranced and then comes out of 202 00:10:44.559 --> 00:10:48.399 the trance, and the Sindar take him for their king. 203 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:51.639 He is renamed Elu Thingal, which means King Graham Mantle. 204 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:55.399 And then they learn a lot, right, they learned a 205 00:10:55.399 --> 00:10:58.080 lot because they have Melon as their queen. Right, so 206 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:01.159 they actually have a who's my Mayar as their queen, 207 00:11:02.200 --> 00:11:04.320 And that's a you know, that's that's a great opportunity. 208 00:11:04.360 --> 00:11:07.279 They may not know, they may not become as knowledgeable 209 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:09.759 as the elves of the blessed realm. But they become 210 00:11:09.799 --> 00:11:12.320 pretty knowledgeable, you know, as compared to the elves that 211 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:15.679 never you know, that never made it over the Blue Mountains. 212 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:17.919 All right. And by the way, just we'll get more 213 00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:23.879 into the geography of Bellerion. But just so you guys understand, 214 00:11:23.879 --> 00:11:27.799 if you look at the map of Bellerion in the Sellmarillion, 215 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:30.279 it's in the front of the back. Can I remember 216 00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:34.320 it's in the back. Yeah. If you look at the map, basically, 217 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:37.759 the Blue Mountains on the very east right, that's the 218 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:40.840 same Blue mountain range that's in the upper northwest of 219 00:11:40.879 --> 00:11:43.320 Middle Earth and the Third Age, and that's kind of 220 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:46.559 the dividing line to the east for Bellerion. All right. 221 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:51.559 So to the to the east of the arid luin 222 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:54.200 of the Blue Mountains, the terrain starts to become a 223 00:11:54.200 --> 00:11:56.600 lot more familiar. We recognize a lot more things from 224 00:11:56.799 --> 00:11:58.480 the Lord of the Rings and from the Hobbit, right, 225 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:00.759 we'll actually hear about some of the those things in 226 00:12:00.879 --> 00:12:07.759 passing reference in this chapter. Some of those areas. Yeah, 227 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:11.960 so that is that's who the Sendar are. And then 228 00:12:12.039 --> 00:12:15.799 let's read let's read of the Coming of the Dwarves, 229 00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:19.200 and the dwarves come along in the year of the 230 00:12:19.240 --> 00:12:22.720 Trees twelve to fifty. They come to Bealerion in the 231 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:28.000 year twelve fifty. So again this is like basically fifteen 232 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:32.360 hundred years of sun years after Melkor went into captivity, right, 233 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:35.840 so a long period has elapsed since then, all right, 234 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:39.799 It came to pass during the second age of the 235 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:42.480 captivity of Melchor that dwarves came over the blue mountains 236 00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:46.039 of arid Lun into belleriond themselves they named Kazad, but 237 00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:50.279 the Sendar called them Nalgrim. The stunted people and Gonhiram, 238 00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:53.320 masters of stone far to the east, were the most 239 00:12:53.320 --> 00:12:55.879 ancient dwellings of the Nalgrim. But they had delved for 240 00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:58.320 themselves great halls and mansions after the manner of their 241 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:01.159 kind in the eastern side of eded Lun, and those 242 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:06.200 cities were named in their own tongue Gabielgathol, and too Mounzahar. 243 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:09.120 To the north of the great height of Mount Dolmed 244 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:13.559 was Gabielgathol, which the elves interpreted in their tongue Belagost, 245 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:18.320 that is Mickelberg, and southward was delved to moun Zahar 246 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:22.639 by the elves named Nograd, the Hollowbold. Greatest of all 247 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:25.919 the mansions of the dwarves was Kasadum, the Dwarro delf 248 00:13:27.799 --> 00:13:31.200 Har Hondrond in the Elvish tongue, that was afterwards, in 249 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:34.279 the days of its darkness, called Moria. But it was 250 00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:36.320 far off from the mountains of myst beyond the wide 251 00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:39.080 leagues of Riador, and to the Eldar came but as 252 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:40.679 a name and a rumor from the words of the 253 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:42.000 Dwarves of the Blue Mountains. 254 00:13:42.759 --> 00:13:44.000 I'm glad you wrote that passage. 255 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:45.679 Yeah, I was gonna say this was This is what 256 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:49.320 I normally put on you, just to mess with you. No, 257 00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:52.039 So we you know, we hear about these in the 258 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:55.320 Blue Mountains themselves. We have two dwarf kingdoms, one in 259 00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:57.480 the northern side of the range, one on the southern 260 00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:01.279 side of the range. And then we actually hear of 261 00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:04.679 of Moria, right of Kasa Doom, which of course plays 262 00:14:04.759 --> 00:14:06.919 you know, an important role in Lord of the Rings. 263 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:11.440 But it's been around since the earliest you know, really 264 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:14.200 really going way back into the early first Age, right, 265 00:14:14.679 --> 00:14:17.799 So we don't get a lot more information about it 266 00:14:17.879 --> 00:14:21.960 here in the Silmarillion, but we do know that exists 267 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:24.559 at this time, and we have reference to the Mountains 268 00:14:24.559 --> 00:14:28.679 of Myss, the Misty Mountains, we have reference to Ariador, 269 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:32.840 and you know, so these regions all do exist, it's 270 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:36.799 just they're not in focus during this During the Selm. 271 00:14:36.519 --> 00:14:38.679 Million, we also hear of Mickelburg. 272 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:41.039 Mickelburgh. Yeah, I think is. 273 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:43.600 Very funny because it doesn't like it sounds like a 274 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:45.159 small town in Pennsylvania or something. 275 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:47.080 I was thinking too. I was like, there might be 276 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:48.720 a town. There must be a town in Pennsylvani named 277 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:51.679 Mickelburg or something. Do you think I was thinking Pennsylvania too. 278 00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:53.440 Yeah, that's hilarious. 279 00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:55.720 We're gonna we're gonna get a note from a listener 280 00:14:55.759 --> 00:15:00.759 who lives in Mickelburg, Pennsylvania. Then we then we then 281 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:02.919 we're gonna learn that it's like, you know, a mining 282 00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:04.120 town or something like that. 283 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:09.159 Right, Yeah, it could be it could be in Pennsylvania, absolutely, yeah. 284 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:13.320 All right, So that's the dwarves in the year twelve 285 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:15.320 fifty of the Year of the Trees, they come into 286 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:19.080 Balarion and and they start to intermingle with the elves 287 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:21.759 of that region, and it sounds like the dwarves already 288 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:24.840 have kind of their own you know, really civilization going 289 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:27.000 at this point, right, mm hmm, Yeah, what were you 290 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:27.320 gonna say? 291 00:15:27.399 --> 00:15:29.759 I was just gonna say that this was probably pretty 292 00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:32.240 trippy for both the elves and the dwarves, because like 293 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:36.320 they both thought that they were like it, right, it 294 00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:40.480 would almost be like like us, like another civilization, Like 295 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:44.720 I think of aliens just like walking into our backyard 296 00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:47.639 or something like, hey, we're here. You're like what we 297 00:15:47.720 --> 00:15:50.200 thought only humans lived here, you know. Yeah, So I 298 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:53.440 think it must have been really like a kind of 299 00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:56.960 surreal for both the dwarves and the elves because they 300 00:15:57.080 --> 00:15:59.600 each were kind of insular before this, and then all 301 00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:02.679 of a sudden than their world's collide. And I think 302 00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:05.080 it's awesome how and we'll get into this in a minute, 303 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:08.200 but they like get along really well. They like they 304 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:11.559 you know, they seem to compliment each other, you know, 305 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:14.080 and seem to work together. 306 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:17.000 I feel like we've probably talked about this before on 307 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:20.200 the podcast, but there's this phenomenon called the Uncanny Valley, 308 00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:25.360 and basically the idea is that as you get closer 309 00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:29.600 and closer to it, there's this graph. I'll try to 310 00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:31.039 remember to put this in the notes because it's really 311 00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:34.240 interesting to think about. But basically, there's like this idea 312 00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:40.720 that as you go from like the most like basic 313 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:45.080 robot all the way to like increasingly complex humanoid like 314 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:49.200 kind of looking things right all the way to like 315 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:52.159 what a like, like what a normal human being, it's 316 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:55.000 it's actually a normal human being. There's like this spectrum 317 00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:58.279 where you know, it's like, oh, cute, cute, cute, and 318 00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:00.679 then you hit this point where it's so close to 319 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:03.720 humanity but you can tell it's not actually human, and 320 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:06.720 but it's it's like close enough to where you're like, uh, 321 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:10.880 not cool, right, And it's that's called the uncanny valley. 322 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:15.119 So it's like, you know, it's like oh, like you know, uh, 323 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:18.880 you know, Robbie the robot little like obviously not a human, right, 324 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:23.359 you know, like Teddy Bear, right, you know, like obviously 325 00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:26.039 not human, obviously not Wait is that human? It doesn't 326 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:28.119 look human, but it kind of looks human or I 327 00:17:28.119 --> 00:17:30.279 don't like it, right, And it gets close and it's 328 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:33.039 like there's like these negative emotions that are associated with 329 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:35.240 like negative reactions associated with it. So it's like this 330 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:37.599 weird effect where it goes it's like too close for. 331 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:43.960 Comfort, right, Everything's just fine until you get just close enough, 332 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:47.279 but it's just enough to kind of make you go, yeah, 333 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:48.759 it's like something's not right. 334 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:53.640 Yeah, you don't look Yeah, yeah, it's it's an interesting 335 00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:56.599 I don't know. I'll try to remember to link to 336 00:17:56.599 --> 00:18:01.240 this on on it's a the Wikipedia article on this, 337 00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:03.720 because it's just an interesting little phenomenon to think about. 338 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:08.240 But but yeah, I think maybe they're I think we 339 00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:11.839 do see some of this with the elves and their interactions, 340 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:14.519 both with dwarves and with men. Right, you know, there's 341 00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:18.200 with dwarves there's maybe more of that effect because they 342 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:21.519 were you know, they're they're like the they call them 343 00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:24.119 the stunted people, right people, and they're like, wait a minute, 344 00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:29.960 you just don't look right, you know, and you know 345 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:32.960 it's like the elves already have enough of a superiority complex, 346 00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:36.440 I'm sure, but you know, they meet the dwarves and 347 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:38.559 they're like, you know, well, we're obviously so much more 348 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:40.559 beautiful than you, and your language is weird and all 349 00:18:40.599 --> 00:18:44.359 this kind of stuff, right, And then you know, men 350 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:46.680 come along and there's a whole nother thing because men 351 00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:51.119 maybe look even more like elves than dwarves do. So anyway, 352 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:54.680 that just your comments there, maybe maybe think of the 353 00:18:54.759 --> 00:18:56.680 Uncanny Valley here. Yeah, so I'll have to remember to 354 00:18:56.720 --> 00:18:58.400 put that into the show notes. 355 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:01.799 Very interesting, and the el and dwarves probably had less 356 00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:04.160 in common than like elves and men, right, I mean, 357 00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:06.839 I think the uncali Uncanny Valley may have been more 358 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:09.480 of a thing between elves and men than between elves 359 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:10.000 and dwarves. 360 00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:12.799 But well, you could argue that the that men are 361 00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:15.359 so close that they're they're back up like close. 362 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:18.000 To well maybe yeah, yeah, that's true. 363 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:24.200 But but you get to with with something like all right, 364 00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:27.839 so a little morbid here. But like you know, if 365 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:30.079 you've been to a funeral, open cask of funeral, and 366 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:33.200 you've seen you know, the body of the person that's 367 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:37.400 in that, you know, the corpse, right, there's kind of 368 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:40.240 that effect, right, because every time I go to one, right, 369 00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:43.119 you know, I'm like, it's that I can tell it's 370 00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:45.000 that person, but it doesn't really look like that person 371 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:47.920 because there's nothing animating it. It's like it's it's an 372 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:51.920 empty it feels like an empty body, you know. And 373 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:53.680 and there's it's obviously you know, been a lot of 374 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:55.640 like makeup and that kind of stuff done and there's 375 00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:57.359 probably been fluids put in there. I don't know. I'm 376 00:19:57.359 --> 00:19:59.000 not in you know, I don't do all of that work, 377 00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:00.559 so I don't know what goes on with that, but 378 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:01.920 I know there's some things that they have to do 379 00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:05.480 to make the body look presentable, right, And and so 380 00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:08.240 they actually point that out on this little graph here, 381 00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:11.880 like corpse is like the bottom point of the Uncanny valley, right, 382 00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:17.359 So anyway, you know, that's that's kind of so I 383 00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:20.200 would think like with dwarves there may be that effect 384 00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:23.279 even more like huge, Like men might look close enough 385 00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:28.039 to elves that it's almost like indistinguishable, right, especially men 386 00:20:28.039 --> 00:20:30.880 in the prime of their life, right, But dwarves it's like, 387 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:33.839 you know, at least the depictions that we normally see 388 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:35.920 of dwarves in Middle Earth, they're kind of funny looking 389 00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:41.640 compared to elves and men, right. So anyway, and. 390 00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:45.559 Obviously orcs would be like a low point here. 391 00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:47.799 Well, yeah, and orcs are almost like a member. They 392 00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:49.960 have two They actually have two things here. They have 393 00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:54.599 two like little lines on this graph, the straight the 394 00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:56.519 straight line the corpse is the bottom point and it 395 00:20:56.519 --> 00:20:58.359 doesn't go as far down. But then you have zombie 396 00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:01.119 on the like it's all like this is the artificial 397 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:05.039 humanity line, and Zombie goes even further down. So I 398 00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:07.279 have to think like Orc would be even further down 399 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:10.240 on the uncanny. So it's like Dwarves would be like 400 00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:13.599 maybe like coming back up from corpse, but still maybe 401 00:21:13.640 --> 00:21:16.640