Speaker 1: I think that more and more people are getting interested
Speaker 1: in staking they hear about it. I mean Robinhood's mass
Speaker 1: market product. So I think as people see the yield
Speaker 1: that they're getting and kind of share the concept with
Speaker 1: their friends, I think it'll be hard to maintain control
Speaker 1: of assets on a centralized platform, particularly unless you're giving
Speaker 1: some exposure to that yield.
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Speaker 2: visit the link in the description. Hey, folks, welcome into
Speaker 2: the Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm your host Tony Edward and
Speaker 2: we are recording at Station three in New York's Financial
Speaker 2: District today and my guest is Vlad Tenev, who's the
Speaker 2: co founder and CEO of Robinhood. Lad, awesome to have
Speaker 2: you on.
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, Tony. Good to be here, Glad.
Speaker 2: This is so awesome. I've been a user of the
Speaker 2: robin Hood platform for many years. It made me want
Speaker 2: to get into investing because as an immigrant kid, I
Speaker 2: never really thought about investing in stocks. But Robinhood came along.
Speaker 2: It made it so easy. You know, what's your vision
Speaker 2: for the company as it continues to grow and it's
Speaker 2: had all this success.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so a Robinhood. I like to think of it
Speaker 1: as financial super app. But right now we're still primarily
Speaker 1: US based and still primarily retail, and I think over
Speaker 1: the long run, we should be a platform that can
Speaker 1: help you with all of your financial needs, whether you're
Speaker 1: in the US or anywhere else in the world, whether
Speaker 1: you're an individual or a business or institution, we should
Speaker 1: just be central to all of your financial needs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it feels like the world is heading that way,
Speaker 2: where everything is on this smartphone. And then with crypto,
Speaker 2: it's not even account based anymore, it's more wallet based.
Speaker 2: So do you see the direction being not only an
Speaker 2: app but a wallet for the future.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that there's definitely some benefits to having
Speaker 1: a wallet experience. I think one of the main benefits
Speaker 1: that is off an overlooked actually is that with non
Speaker 1: custodial wallets, you're basically in complete control of your assets.
Speaker 1: So that makes you less reliant on the broker as
Speaker 1: a construct. If you're unhappy with the broker, you can
Speaker 1: easily switch your assets to another provider. I mean, as
Speaker 1: long as the blockchain is up and running, you have
Speaker 1: control over your assets, and I think that's a very
Speaker 1: powerful thing. I mean, we're in the traditional brokerage space
Speaker 1: as well as crypto, and we've been a net beneficiary
Speaker 1: of asset transfers so more. I mean this quarter we
Speaker 1: announced for many quarters running, we're net We're getting net
Speaker 1: transfers in from pretty much all of our brokerage competitors,
Speaker 1: and so we see how crufty it is. We'd like
Speaker 1: to make that process better. We think that it should
Speaker 1: be as easy as possible to move your assets, to
Speaker 1: have control of your assets, and you know, if you're
Speaker 1: unhappy with the service, we should compete over quality of service,
Speaker 1: not make it as difficult as possible to move your
Speaker 1: your assets out. I think a lot of our competitors
Speaker 1: will probably disagree with that, but that mindset lends itself
Speaker 1: well to self custody, where ultimately you're leveraging public infrastructure
Speaker 1: for more and more of financial services, and you know
Speaker 1: the wallet providers or the brokers differentiate on service quality.
Speaker 2: Sure, So before I get ahead of myself, I do
Speaker 2: want to discuss you know, some success and amazing numbers
Speaker 2: you've had from a quarterly standpoint and year of the
Speaker 2: year revenues up forty five percent year of a year.
Speaker 2: We also have your net deposits of thirteen point eight
Speaker 2: billion on your third highest quarter on record. Amazing accolades,
Speaker 2: amazing numbers. What do you think about the growth and
Speaker 2: is it because the mar gets are growing the world's
Speaker 2: becoming more financialized and things like that, well.
Speaker 1: We like to look at the leading indicators of growth
Speaker 1: because these are downstream metrics. You know, if you think
Speaker 1: about it, the path to producing earnings per share and
Speaker 1: revenue is get more customers. Make the customers as happy
Speaker 1: as possible so that they put more assets onto the
Speaker 1: platform and use a lot of your products. And then
Speaker 1: the more products they use, the higher their wallet share is,
Speaker 1: the higher their account is. That drives net deposits, which
Speaker 1: ultimately drives revenue. And we like to focus as upstream
Speaker 1: on the funnel as possible, so getting more customers, we
Speaker 1: have a lot already, making sure they're as happy as possible.
Speaker 1: Our NPS is at a four year high, and that's
Speaker 1: really what's been leading to the net deposit growth and
Speaker 1: the market share gains across all of our businesses. And
Speaker 1: we think there's more tailwinds, you know, we think that
Speaker 1: we're moving fast. The product velocity. The product velocities perhaps
Speaker 1: the leading indicator of everything because that's the rate at
Speaker 1: which we're improving our products and services, and that's what
Speaker 1: we found drives customer satisfaction and NPS. So we see tailwinds,
Speaker 1: we think we can we can continue and I look
Speaker 1: at the product, and I still see all the ways
Speaker 1: that it's clunky and could be better, and I don't
Speaker 1: think we're close to done.
Speaker 2: Well. The user interface and the UX right now, it's
Speaker 2: pretty great. Like I said, I'm a user of the product,
Speaker 2: and I can't wait to see what additional features you
Speaker 2: guys roll out. Like I know it seems really silly,
Speaker 2: but like I love when I deposit money and it
Speaker 2: does this little graphical movement and it's like this lightning.
Speaker 2: But like, just stuff like that is like rewarding as
Speaker 2: a user. I don't know if that makes sense, just
Speaker 2: like a dopamine hit.
Speaker 1: Almost well, we want to make sure that each moment,
Speaker 1: especially the big ones that are that are meaningful to you,
Speaker 1: like depositing money into that account, we take a little
Speaker 1: bit extra care and precision to make you feel like
Speaker 1: the people building the products actually care about the experience.
Speaker 1: And you know, I think the experience is an important bit.
Speaker 1: It's one of the things that differentiates us relative to
Speaker 1: our peers. But there's still problems that we need to fix.
Speaker 1: I think one of the things we've been thinking about
Speaker 1: lately is we have all these products, we have all
Speaker 1: these accounts. Now it's not just a trading app for stocks,
Speaker 1: but we've got retirement accounts, We've got joint accounts for
Speaker 1: your spouse bankings coming in there. We've got a great
Speaker 1: credit card offering. And you know, we've been thinking all
Speaker 1: right now that we've moved from a single account, how
Speaker 1: do we how do we make sense of all these
Speaker 1: accounts and products. So you might have seen some interface
Speaker 1: changes to make it easier to discover our new products
Speaker 1: to sort of like organize your assets into new accounts,
Speaker 1: but that that's kind of the next area that we're
Speaker 1: trying to simplify for our customers.
Speaker 2: In line of what we were talking about earlier with
Speaker 2: the wallet base and set up for the future of finance.
Speaker 2: You have all these suites, this full suite of products.
Speaker 2: You're disrupting many big players on Wall Street and tradfi.
Speaker 2: Do you feel you have a targeting your back that
Speaker 2: they're kind of going to look to launch something similar
Speaker 2: to what you're doing, or you have this head start
Speaker 2: they may not be able to catch up.
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be tough to catch up
Speaker 1: if you're an incumbent, because we're not only further ahead.
Speaker 1: I think in most of the areas that I believe matter,
Speaker 1: but we're also moving much faster and so by the
Speaker 1: time they catch up to where we're at now, we'll
Speaker 1: probably be two or three steps ahead. So I worry
Speaker 1: less about those firms. I think the real competition at
Speaker 1: the end of the day is going to be the
Speaker 1: AI firms. That's who we're competing with for talent, and
Speaker 1: I think that's the leading indicator of all. And if
Speaker 1: I had to think about, you know, what are the
Speaker 1: new platform shifts, I think we've gone through mobile and
Speaker 1: cloud and Robinhood I believe is emerged the winner of
Speaker 1: that platform shift. But then there's another one with artificial
Speaker 1: intelligence and crypto. So we have these two platform shifts
Speaker 1: that are that are happening simultaneously, and I think most
Speaker 1: of my attention is making sure we navigate those well
Speaker 1: and we actually emerge the category leader as a result
Speaker 1: of those platform shifts. And you know, we have some
Speaker 1: assets to bear that should help us, which is we've
Speaker 1: got scale. We still move fast despite our large scale
Speaker 1: and user base. But yeah, I think the bigger sort
Speaker 1: of like thing to watch out for is companies that
Speaker 1: are unencumbered by legacy technology. Web three companies, companies and
Speaker 1: founders that are AI native and basically have like a
Speaker 1: clean slate to build, So that that's probably what we
Speaker 1: spend most of our time thinking about.
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, you mentioned AI. It's going to play a
Speaker 2: big part in markets and in our lives in different ways.
Speaker 2: I envision one day logging into Robinhood and have an
Speaker 2: AI agent and says, hey, Tony, how are you good morning.
Speaker 2: Here are some stock picks, here's some crypto picks. Here's
Speaker 2: how your portfolio is doing, Here's how the market's doing,
Speaker 2: Here's what the FED is doing. And just giving me
Speaker 2: all that information customized to me and what I like
Speaker 2: to invest in and things like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm guessing you're a gold member. Yeah, you've got
Speaker 1: a Robinhood gold account. Are you have you had Cortex
Speaker 1: rolling out to you yet?
Speaker 2: I don't think so, And I honestly have not checked
Speaker 2: it in the past couple of months because I've been traveling.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you should check it more regularly, because then what
Speaker 1: you'll see is actually front and center on every stock
Speaker 1: you have Cortex digests, And basically what that does is
Speaker 1: it answers the question of what's going on with this stock?
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes you have a stock that's moving up
Speaker 1: five percent down five percent. You don't really know what's
Speaker 1: driving it. And I think one of the best use
Speaker 1: cases of AI is to just give you that answer
Speaker 1: in words, and so we have that that's very front
Speaker 1: and center. Behind the scenes, we have customer support that's
Speaker 1: basically mostly driven by AI at this point, and we've
Speaker 1: been we've been able to actually increase customer satisfaction while
Speaker 1: we've been doing this shift, which has been awesome to see.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think I think in the future, AI
Speaker 1: will be imbued across all the relevant services in the app.
Speaker 1: We're going to start with the biggest, most important ones,
Speaker 1: but then it'll it'll just expand from there.
Speaker 2: In the world, we're headed to where we're going to
Speaker 2: have twenty four to seven markets because of tokenization. Do
Speaker 2: you think AI agents and AI bots if you want
Speaker 2: to call them, that will play a big role in
Speaker 2: helping us maintain our portfolio because we can't stay up
Speaker 2: till three am trading markets and things like that.
Speaker 1: I think I think that, Yeah, it's interesting question. I
Speaker 1: think there will be some of that. I think a
Speaker 1: lot of traders that I talk to that are actively
Speaker 1: managing their portfolios really like to have full control over everything.
Speaker 1: And I think there there's a little bit of an
Speaker 1: open question in the AI industry itself about what the
Speaker 1: bigger opportunity is from augmentation to replacement. And you're seeing
Speaker 1: that encoding in particular right encoding, which is actually at
Speaker 1: the frontier of AI applicability. You have kind of these
Speaker 1: two thoughts. One is I just tell my agent you
Speaker 1: know what I want done, Versus I'm kind of in charge.
Speaker 1: I'm writing the code, the agent is like boosting my
Speaker 1: output by one hundred x. And if the first paradigm
Speaker 1: wins of like replacement of software engineer, you start to
Speaker 1: think about, like what's going to happen. Software engineers in
Speaker 1: that world would be eventually sort of like replaced, or
Speaker 1: the job would change fundamentally. If you believe in the
Speaker 1: second world of augmentation, perhaps software engineers will be one
Speaker 1: hundred x is common. Everyone will be able to be
Speaker 1: a software engineer. And I think it's very unclear what
Speaker 1: the end state is. I mean, yeah, the folks that
Speaker 1: are telling you that software engineers are going to be
Speaker 1: completely automated away are also paying hundreds of millions to
Speaker 1: billions in packages for engineers right now. So if you
Speaker 1: believe that both of those things can't be true in
Speaker 1: your mind. But I think with trading and financial services
Speaker 1: for the foreseeable future, I think that it'll be a
Speaker 1: story of augmentation. So I think we'll have more traders,
Speaker 1: will build tools to make them more effective. Everyone will
Speaker 1: be able to get the technology to do sophisticated things,
Speaker 1: and I think Robinhood can can support and provide a
Speaker 1: lot of that techno and make it usable in forms
Speaker 1: that actually help our traders.
Speaker 2: I heard someone recently say that these AI platforms and
Speaker 2: so forth will make us be less doers and more directors.
Speaker 2: So you can have multiple AI agencies along what you're saying.
Speaker 2: Maybe I have an AI agent's focused specifically on crypto,
Speaker 2: one on stocks, one on the goal market or whatever
Speaker 2: it is, and I'm directing, I'm monitoring, and they're doing
Speaker 2: my bidding, so to speak.
Speaker 1: I think if you ask someone one hundred years ago
Speaker 1: to evaluate the state of like the modern workforce, they'd
Speaker 1: probably tell you everyone's directing, nobody's doing anything, because back then,
Speaker 1: if you weren't actually like growing your own food and
Speaker 1: you know, tilling your own soil and chopping your own wood,
Speaker 1: you weren't doing anything right. That was sort of like
Speaker 1: the dominant We were in an agricultural driven society back then,
Speaker 1: So they probably look at all of our jobs as
Speaker 1: not real work. And it'll be like podcasts. You're a
Speaker 1: podcast hosts, so you just talk to people today and
Speaker 1: other people listen, right, So yeah, I think I think
Speaker 1: the true story is probably a little bit more complicated.
Speaker 1: I think the jobs will change, but they'll still feel
Speaker 1: like meaningful work, probably much more meaningful with much larger impact.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you can take a trader and augment
Speaker 1: their capabilities by one hundred x in the same way
Speaker 1: that you can take a software engineer and give them
Speaker 1: the tools to perhaps run an entire software company by themselves,
Speaker 1: I think you'll have more entrepreneurs, more companies, you'll have
Speaker 1: more traders, so and and I think at the time
Speaker 1: they'll feel like real substantive work, is my guess.
Speaker 2: When you say more traders, are you thinking not just
Speaker 2: the US but globally because with tokenization of traditional assets
Speaker 2: and much more, if you're in a country and Africa,
Speaker 2: or you're somewhere in India, wherever New Zealand, you now
Speaker 2: have the ability to access these markets trade them and
Speaker 2: then do defining things like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean you look at a lot of these markets.
Speaker 1: People have access to crypto, they've been onboarded, they have
Speaker 1: crypto wallets, they're using stable coin, and when we get
Speaker 1: US stocks on chain in a much bigger way. I think,
Speaker 1: in the same way that you know, customers in the
Speaker 1: past ten years in the US have increased their overall
Speaker 1: exposure to equities relative to cash and other assets, I'd
Speaker 1: expect customers overseas to increase their relative exposure of tokenized
Speaker 1: equities and other assets relative to stable coin.
Speaker 2: Sure, talk to us a bit about that. Because one
Speaker 2: of your big crypto initiatives is tokenization of tradfy assets
Speaker 2: like stocks. There are going to be people watching, listening.
Speaker 2: This is a new concept to them, and they're gonna say, so,
Speaker 2: what can access Tesla stock right now now?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: What will be your pitch to them to say, here's
Speaker 2: why we're tokenizing.
Speaker 1: I think it's the same argument as stable coin. Like
Speaker 1: in the same way that stable coin puts fiat currency
Speaker 1: like the US dollar on the blockchain, tokenizing stocks puts
Speaker 1: US stocks in the blockchain, and there's several benefits. In
Speaker 1: the US, It's really about twenty four to seven trading.
Speaker 1: It's about lower settlement times and the DeFi interoperability, the
Speaker 1: fact that if your broker has an outage, you can
Speaker 1: take your stocks to another provider and it's much more
Speaker 1: robust experience because you have control and access to your
Speaker 1: assets as long as the blockchain is up, and you know,
Speaker 1: blockchains have proved to be generally quite robust. But then
Speaker 1: there's the international component where you know, billions of people
Speaker 1: right now overseas don't even have access to these assets.
Speaker 1: And you know stable cooin did that for dollars. It
Speaker 1: was hard to get dollars if you were in Latin
Speaker 1: America or you know even in even in Asia. And
Speaker 1: now with stable coins, because those customers have been onboarded
Speaker 1: a crypto wallets, they can get exposure to stable coin,
Speaker 1: and particularly in markets where the local currency has devalued
Speaker 1: very rapidly, you know, dollar stable coins have become the
Speaker 1: best vehicle to get that type of exposure. And I
Speaker 1: think the same is true for token is stocks. They're
Speaker 1: going to want exposure to the higher appreciation of these companies.
Speaker 1: I mean, everyone's heard of the great American companies that
Speaker 1: Tesla's Amazons Meta Nvidia and you know, yeah, it's humbling
Speaker 1: to even be mentioned in that category for sure, But
Speaker 1: I think the rest of the world is interested in
Speaker 1: the American market. It's increasingly a global market, and so
Speaker 1: that product as a delivery system to US equities, I
Speaker 1: think will work very well.
Speaker 2: And with these new on rams being built, do you
Speaker 2: expect tons of liquidity to come in and evaluations of
Speaker 2: the SMP five hundred and NAZAC to go even higher
Speaker 2: than we've ever seen it. Even the individual stock. So
Speaker 2: let's say Tesla, A lot of people are bullish on
Speaker 2: that and are like they're seeing what Elon's doing, and
Speaker 2: then you have people from around the globe that can
Speaker 2: now on ramp. It seems like this truly global market
Speaker 2: and tons of liquidity that can come in.
Speaker 1: I think that if the number of startups and different
Speaker 1: opportunities stayed the same, you would expect that to happen, right,
Speaker 1: greater demand for the same amount of supply. But I
Speaker 1: think one of the other benefits of tokenization is that
Speaker 1: assets that typically have not been liquid or tradeable or
Speaker 1: even accessible, like private stocks like real estate. You know,
Speaker 1: these are attractive assets. A lot of people want to
Speaker 1: get their hands on real estate exposure, private stock exposure,
Speaker 1: and it's very difficult right now. So we expect the
Speaker 1: supply to increase too, and not just the demand. So
Speaker 1: you'll have more global money chasing these instruments, but the
Speaker 1: number of instruments will continue to increase.
Speaker 2: Now part of the announcement with launching tokenized stocks and
Speaker 2: so forth, I believe it's Arbitrum that you're using that blockchain.
Speaker 1: Are you planning to use We're building our own, but
Speaker 1: it's using the Arbitram stack.
Speaker 2: Are you planning to integrate other blockchains have some interoperability
Speaker 2: among the maybe the top chains and things like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, right now it's still early. We're focused
Speaker 1: on our own chain, but over time, I think we'll
Speaker 1: have to as it gets up and running and interoperability
Speaker 1: becomes more of a desired feature, we'll have to focus
Speaker 1: on bridging and those types of technologies, or at least sponsoring, endorsing,
Speaker 1: helping out other companies that want to build these bridging technologies.
Speaker 1: I think the great thing about it is so much
Speaker 1: of this stuff is open source, and you really have
Speaker 1: like community development of these public protocols. It's really public infrastructure, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, we don't drive ethereum development. We probably could
Speaker 1: make suggestions, but ultimately we don't drive arbitrum development either.
Speaker 1: And the goal would be, like over time the Robinhood
Speaker 1: chain to be the best chain for real world assets
Speaker 1: and to have a vibrant open source ecosystem and a
Speaker 1: vibrant developer ecosystem around it.
Speaker 2: So is your vision for that chain to be public
Speaker 2: or will it be permissioned?
Speaker 1: Division? Is for it to be public? Yeah, full DeFi access.
Speaker 2: That's great. I love that. And then some of your
Speaker 2: other crypto initiatives. Obviously you have full crypto trading and
Speaker 2: you added staking. Tell us a bit about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So in the US we have Staking, which has
Speaker 1: been off to a fast start. In the first month
Speaker 1: since we've rolled it out for Ethan Soul, we have
Speaker 1: about seven hundred and fifty million in steak dassets, which
Speaker 1: is actually significant percentage. Now we've looked if you look
Speaker 1: at Europe where we launched Staking earlier, much higher percentage.
Speaker 1: Over half of our assets are staked, and we think
Speaker 1: over time, as we get more and more, as the
Speaker 1: word gets out that we have this offer, you should
Speaker 1: see the steak dassets increase even further and I think
Speaker 1: it's good for customers. Obviously they get the yield, but
Speaker 1: they also want to be a part of something bigger,
Speaker 1: and they really it resonates with them to actually be
Speaker 1: contributing to maintaining the networks that they're holding these assets in,
Speaker 1: so that's been good. We launched a bunch of other
Speaker 1: stuff besides tokenized besides stock tokens. In the EU, for example,
Speaker 1: Perpetual Futures was announced to great fanfare, so people very
Speaker 1: excited about about Perpetual Futures. I think the UI is
Speaker 1: really nice there and we're looking to bring that to
Speaker 1: the US pending some regulatory clarity there. We have the
Speaker 1: credit card, which has been very popular, and we're adding
Speaker 1: a crypto value prop so customers can directly invest in
Speaker 1: crypto through their rewards, which will be very cool. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I think the other thing is private markets.
Speaker 1: We're really working hard. We heard a lot of demand
Speaker 1: from our event, not just for private market exposure in Europe,
Speaker 1: which we demonstrated with the open AI and SpaceX giveaway,
Speaker 1: but also in the US. We had over twenty five
Speaker 1: million people watch our livestream event, and a lot of
Speaker 1: those were in the US, so there's a lot of
Speaker 1: interest in getting private markets exposure, and we think there's
Speaker 1: a path to making that possible here, and it might
Speaker 1: not be tokenized at the onset, but you know, we
Speaker 1: want to use whatever technology and regular toy structure is
Speaker 1: available to give our customers the best experience.
Speaker 2: On the staking front. This may be a hard question
Speaker 2: to answer, but you know, right now, banks don't give
Speaker 2: you any type of interest, right and folks are in
Speaker 2: a hunt for yield. Do you think that there may
Speaker 2: be this kind of black hole where crypto sucks in
Speaker 2: a lot of people are moving their money into ether
Speaker 2: or soul to steak, to earn that high yield and
Speaker 2: earn that passive reward.
Speaker 1: I think that more and more people are getting interested
Speaker 1: in staking they hear about it. I mean Robinhood's mass
Speaker 1: market product. So I think as people see the yield
Speaker 1: that they're getting and kind of share the concept with
Speaker 1: their friends, I think it'll be hard to maintain control
Speaker 1: of assets on a centralized platform, particularly unless you're giving
Speaker 1: some exposure to that yield. I don't see it necessarily
Speaker 1: competing with cash fields because people tend to think of
Speaker 1: these products very differently. Cash is like a you know,
Speaker 1: secure investment that holds its value. Cryptos, even the layer
Speaker 1: one chains, tend to be a little bit more volatile.
Speaker 1: So I think the better analogy is probably to a stock.
Speaker 1: People think of it similarly to stocks, and like there
Speaker 1: are analogies to earning yield on stocks, like securities lending
Speaker 1: for instance.
Speaker 2: Right, so, Vlad, it's twenty thirty, it's crypto the biggest
Speaker 2: part of your business as far as revenue or do
Speaker 2: you think it's on par with the equities market.
Speaker 1: I think it depends on how you measure crypto. So
Speaker 1: if crypto includes tokenization of real world assets like stocks,
Speaker 1: I think that could grow rather large. I think at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, though, the majority of investment
Speaker 1: will be in assets that have fundamental utility, so real things,
Speaker 1: whether it's real estate, a private credit, private equity, public stocks,
Speaker 1: or you know, things like art or collectibles even uh,
Speaker 1: I think that should remain the majority and so. But
Speaker 1: but if those are tokenized, then you can you can
Speaker 1: probably categorize that as crypto revenue.
Speaker 2: Interesting, Yeah, if it's bucketed that way, Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2: Us d G the stable coin Consortium. Why not launch
Speaker 2: your own stable coin? Why be part of this consortium.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, uh, one one thing that we think
Speaker 1: is going to be a little bit easier with a
Speaker 1: consortium is getting other companies to be on board and
Speaker 1: using our stable coin as a first class citizen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because if you think about it, if I was offering you,
Speaker 1: as you know, a crypto exchange or wallet operator robinhood coin,
Speaker 1: your first reaction might be why would I have robinhood
Speaker 1: coin on my platform and why would I endorse that?
Speaker 1: But if it's something that's collectively owned, then I think
Speaker 1: that could be very very powerful if you could benefit
Speaker 1: from robinhood being part of your network without it being
Speaker 1: you know, termed a robinhood coin. And I think the
Speaker 1: thing that we really liked about us d G, which
Speaker 1: you know is unique relative to how other stable coin
Speaker 1: consortiums like Circle have been set up, is the participants
Speaker 1: get to control the rewards in the yield and distribute
Speaker 1: it accordingly. So if we bring more dollars into the network,
Speaker 1: admit more us DG, we get a disproportionate amount of
Speaker 1: the awards based on what we bring. And so I
Speaker 1: believe it has the benefits of our own stable coin
Speaker 1: with with sort of like limited downsides and I think
Speaker 1: the great thing about it is, you know, we continue
Speaker 1: to support you as d C, will support whatever stable
Speaker 1: coin customers want. But yeah, us d G, I think
Speaker 1: has we think has a nice structure as a consortium
Speaker 1: where we get the benefits of having our own coin
Speaker 1: and limited limited downsides.
Speaker 2: That absolutely makes sense. And then in addition to the distribution,
Speaker 2: having you and other well known companies trusted brands being
Speaker 2: part of that consortium, I would trust that more as
Speaker 2: a consumer and a user versus let's say a startup
Speaker 2: stable coin that no one is really backing. It's out there,
Speaker 2: but I'm going to go with a trusted brand that
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 1: And I also think that, you know, one of the
Speaker 1: other criticisms of being in a consortium historically has been
Speaker 1: that you don't really have as much control over the
Speaker 1: product development. And you know, we we do tend to
Speaker 1: want to have a lot of control into what the
Speaker 1: end user is experiences. But for a stable coin, there's
Speaker 1: just limited degrees of freedom. The thing has to work,
Speaker 1: it has to be backed by dollars, it has to
Speaker 1: have some mechanism to generate yield, and if enough of
Speaker 1: that is flexible, we feel like, you know, we're good
Speaker 1: with the development. We don't think that there's going to
Speaker 1: be a huge downside to not steering that directly.
Speaker 2: With the Genius Act that recently got passed into a
Speaker 2: law to stave of aquin legislation. What do you think
Speaker 2: that means for dollar adoption, dollar dominance, and just more
Speaker 2: people using digital money.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think what the more powerful thing about
Speaker 1: the Genius Bill is it's a demonstration that the US
Speaker 1: has not just the will but also the capability of
Speaker 1: getting crypto legislation passed. So it was like a warm up.
Speaker 1: I think the securities legislation through clarity is going to
Speaker 1: be much more, much more meaningful. And also getting real
Speaker 1: world asset tokenization set up in a coherent regulatory framework
Speaker 1: that's on shore UH is going to be a big
Speaker 1: thing as well.
Speaker 2: The Market Structure Bill David Sachs said they should send it,
Speaker 2: should have that pass in September. That's the meat and potatoes.
Speaker 2: It covers a lot of different aspects of the crypto market.
Speaker 2: If that gets past, what does that mean for Robinhood
Speaker 2: and its crypto business.
Speaker 1: I think there will be there will be much more
Speaker 1: clarity on what assets should be CFTC regulated versus SEC
Speaker 1: regulated uh, and also what the mechanism is from jumping
Speaker 1: from one regime to the to the other. And of
Speaker 1: course we run both kinds of businesses right our brokers
Speaker 1: are SEC regulated. We've got a futures commissions merchant which
Speaker 1: is our traditional futures business, but also predict markets that's
Speaker 1: CFTC regulated. And of course our current crypto business, which
Speaker 1: is state by state, which I think is not ideal.
Speaker 1: I think state by state increases complexity and cost, and
Speaker 1: for something like crypto, there really should be a federal
Speaker 1: framework that unifies, sort of like the patchwork of regulations.
Speaker 1: So I think too early to be seen, the final
Speaker 1: draft may look different than what's out there now. But
Speaker 1: if we get a comprehensive federal framework and also listing
Speaker 1: standards clarity for lack of a better word, I think
Speaker 1: that should make it a lot easier to operate going forward.
Speaker 2: So glad we have this soup of new technologies tokenization, DeFi,
Speaker 2: stable coins, and everyone's pretty much online now right. The
Speaker 2: infrastructure of the internet has gone global. Everyone has a
Speaker 2: smartphone for the most part. What does the future of
Speaker 2: markets look like? Is it kind of madness? Like we're
Speaker 2: staying up till four am trading or maybe not. Maybe
Speaker 2: we just have more accessibility to assets and can better
Speaker 2: our lives and can participate in the markets. There's more democratization.
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of trends that are sort
Speaker 1: of like hitting at the same time. One that I
Speaker 1: think is going to be a big one that we
Speaker 1: haven't talked about much as the Great Wealth Transfer. So
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty four trillion, I think is the
Speaker 1: last number I saw of assets going from silent generation
Speaker 1: and Baby boomers down to younger generations. And you know,
Speaker 1: this is money moving from people that primarily did their
Speaker 1: financial services in person at branches to younger people that
Speaker 1: are much more digitally native that prefer to do their
Speaker 1: financial services from their smartphone at home. And I think
Speaker 1: that that's going to change a lot of things for
Speaker 1: the better. I think obviously costs will be lower, You'll
Speaker 1: get a lot more direct participation in these companies, which
Speaker 1: I think is a big thing. I think we've gotten
Speaker 1: very abstracted over the past few decades as more and
Speaker 1: more of the money has been going into funds, you know,
Speaker 1: pension funds, different things they're investing the money on behalf
Speaker 1: of like large pools of capital. We've sort of moved
Speaker 1: away from buying a company because you believe that company
Speaker 1: will do well. The dominant thing is like, what's the
Speaker 1: sector doing, what's the macro doing? Where do tariffs stand?
Speaker 1: And less of like, Okay, this company's earnings I believe
Speaker 1: are going to be higher in the future than now
Speaker 1: by this much, and so I'll buy it. And I
Speaker 1: think we're seeing a positive We're going to see a
Speaker 1: positive reversion to direct investment, which I think is good.
Speaker 1: You have AI driven disruption, which I think is going
Speaker 1: to be a big thing, and I think self directed
Speaker 1: is going to be an increasingly big thing. I think
Speaker 1: customers are going to be self directing a greater percentage
Speaker 1: of their finances and their lives.
Speaker 2: So you're saying the RIA and wealth management business is
Speaker 2: gonna reduce significantly.
Speaker 1: I think the RIA business is likely to increase, but
Speaker 1: I think the RIA relationship to customers will change fundamentally.
Speaker 1: And actually we have we made a great acquisition of
Speaker 1: a company called trade PMR, which is an RIA custody platform.
Speaker 1: I think you should think of the RIA as I
Speaker 1: think in the future we'll have more entrepreneurs And if
Speaker 1: you think about the Robinhood customer as many of them are.
Speaker 1: As an entrepreneur, your RIA should be your CFO. So
Speaker 1: historically the RIA has been like, leave this to me.
Speaker 1: I know what's best for you, you know. And I
Speaker 1: think I think there'll be a trusted advisor. They'll be
Speaker 1: able to help you with a lot more of your needs,
Speaker 1: but ultimately they'll be there to help you achieve your goals.
Speaker 1: So I think the relationship will shift to a much
Speaker 1: more client friendly one. And I think also arias will
Speaker 1: be able to serve many more clients because they're going
Speaker 1: to be earlier adopters of this technology as well.
Speaker 2: I'll give it a bit of an anecdotal story just personally.
Speaker 2: My wife and I we have a registered investment advisor
Speaker 2: in one of the big firms. I'll name it Edward Jones. Yes,
Speaker 2: we have a trad fy account, but they couldn't touch crypto.
Speaker 2: But I was the risk taker in my family investing
Speaker 2: in bitcoin in the early days, eth and so forth.
Speaker 2: That portfolio has grown significantly more than the trad FI portfolio. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and now when I speak to my ARIA, he's like,
Speaker 2: how's your crypto portfolio doing? Because you can't touch it? Yet.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's just funny that.
Speaker 3: They're telling you that they're working on it. Yes, they're like,
Speaker 3: oh yeah, of course, yeah, it's so funny. And the
Speaker 3: transition that's happening. I eventually they'll get there. A lot
Speaker 3: of the Wall Street firms launching their own et aps
Speaker 3: and things like that.
Speaker 2: You know, what are your thoughts on how trad fi
Speaker 2: And I would include robinhood in there. I think you
Speaker 2: guys have been the disruptor of trad fi. But a
Speaker 2: lot of these firms launching tokenize money market funds, etaps
Speaker 2: and much more.
Speaker 1: I think they're talking about it, but there's been a
Speaker 1: lot of words and very little action in the form
Speaker 1: of products that see the light of day and you
Speaker 1: can actually use. Yeah, I mean, most of the tokenization
Speaker 1: initiatives have been on private blockchains where you don't actually
Speaker 1: get the benefit of tokenization, so it sort of like
Speaker 1: works slightly less well than non tokenized equivalents. And I
Speaker 1: think it's what happens when you have these large companies
Speaker 1: that have an established business that they're really afraid to touch,
Speaker 1: and so by design they kind of create these sandboxes
Speaker 1: and think tags and research labs. If people over here
Speaker 1: but it never makes its way into the full product.
Speaker 2: This is a hard question to ask or if they
Speaker 2: probably answer, and it's probably been controversial. With the rise
Speaker 2: of platforms like Robinhood and this technology where people going
Speaker 2: to have ownership do their own investing, so to speak,
Speaker 2: with AI agents supporting them, are we going to see
Speaker 2: the reduction of power of Wall Street bangs and the
Speaker 2: Goldman sacks and so forth, that they're not going to
Speaker 2: have the same amount of power and capital they've had historically.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that if you think about
Speaker 1: all of these trends, they're moving in the direction of
Speaker 1: greater individual power. I mean, the tools that you would
Speaker 1: have had to rely on an institution for in the
Speaker 1: past are now in your smartphone, and you know a
Speaker 1: lot of them are increasingly being offered in a self custody,
Speaker 1: permissionless way. And I think that's an enduring trend. It's
Speaker 1: going to be more individual for sure. Individuals will have
Speaker 1: more power, whether institutions have less. I think demand depends
Speaker 1: on how far and how aggressively the overall PI grows,
Speaker 1: and I believe it'll grow quite significantly. So yeah, I
Speaker 1: see a world where the institutional market will also continue
Speaker 1: to grow. I think you'll see more assets on an
Speaker 1: absolute basis in institutional accounts, but individuals will become more
Speaker 1: powerful and will have more assets that are self directed.
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of these individuals will also
Speaker 1: become institutions, and so the lines will will tend to
Speaker 1: blur between the two as well.
Speaker 2: When you say these individuals will become institutions, do you
Speaker 2: mean that because they have, to your point, more access
Speaker 2: to data, trading, view, Bloomberg, terminal, things that were not
Speaker 2: accessible before. They can look at charts, they can understand
Speaker 2: what the feed is doing better because there's more knowledge
Speaker 2: out there on the Internet. They have their AI agents,
Speaker 2: they kind of.
Speaker 1: Bul their AI agents, they have their own software, they
Speaker 1: have tools like Robinhood, which I think will help them.
Speaker 1: And then they'll manage money on behalf of others, right,
Speaker 1: And you know, you'll probably have an increase in one
Speaker 1: person hedge funds or one person rias or asset managers,
Speaker 1: which in all sense of the world, they look and
Speaker 1: feel like institutions, but it's not hundreds of people in
Speaker 1: an office. It's you know, one or two people that
Speaker 1: are just managing a large book of business.
Speaker 2: Do you think they'll have to be licensed, or they
Speaker 2: can just do it with peer to peer type set up.
Speaker 1: I think depending on what type of business they do
Speaker 1: and whether it's in the US or global, they'll they'll
Speaker 1: still have to get licensed, but you know, even that
Speaker 1: process can be streamlined. I think there's a big push
Speaker 1: now to like make it easier to get licensure, to
Speaker 1: at least clarify the process across a bunch of different
Speaker 1: fields of what it takes to get particular type of accreditation.
Speaker 1: And you know, there's there's been We've gotten into a
Speaker 1: quagmire of regulations right that's become unsustainable to even parse.
Speaker 1: And I guess there's one of two solutions. One is
Speaker 1: we delete a whole bunch of the ones that don't
Speaker 1: make sense and streamline it. The other is we just
Speaker 1: like use AI to manage it for us and simplify
Speaker 1: it and interpret it. And I think one of those
Speaker 1: two definitely will happen, possibly a little bit of both.
Speaker 2: On that note, do you think the accreditation laws need
Speaker 2: to be updated given how markets are situated?
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, the accreditation laws don't make any sense in
Speaker 1: the current market. I mean two reasons, right, One is
Speaker 1: you can invest in any meme coin that's like easy accessible.
Speaker 1: You can invest an unlimited amount of your capital and
Speaker 1: any meme coin and that's fully legal. But SpaceX and
Speaker 1: open ai is viewed as too risky. And historically the
Speaker 1: accreditation laws were intended to make up for a information gap, right,
Speaker 1: and the thinking was, there's not very much information. These
Speaker 1: companies aren't publishing reports or really much of anything. And
Speaker 1: if you have, you know, a million dollars in net
Speaker 1: worth or certain threshold of annual income, you could hire
Speaker 1: a person for you to like make sense of this,
Speaker 1: a professional to make sure you know you're just making
Speaker 1: reasonable decisions. I think nowadays there's lots more information, right.
Speaker 1: You have all sorts of information on social media, the Internet,
Speaker 1: probably more than most people would care to read. We
Speaker 1: have AI models that are getting smarter that can probably
Speaker 1: replicate the functions of most of the advisors you would
Speaker 1: have been able to hire in the eighties, right, at
Speaker 1: lower cost and also make sense of the information. And
Speaker 1: you juxtapose that against the current public company climate, where
Speaker 1: it's gotten easier for a private company to raise capital
Speaker 1: from institutional investors in the private markets. Simultaneously the costs
Speaker 1: and like the process complexity of going public has increased.
Speaker 1: So all of this has created a perfect storm where
Speaker 1: retail investors can get exposure to some of these AI
Speaker 1: companies that are shaping the future, and the incentives are
Speaker 1: kind of all simultaneously aligned to make that more difficult
Speaker 1: rather than rather than easier. So I think we have
Speaker 1: to start chipping away at it, and the accreditation laws
Speaker 1: need to be reformed for sure, And actually there's a
Speaker 1: lot of support for this. I think there's a good
Speaker 1: chance it'll happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. You mentioned meme coins. I have a love
Speaker 2: hate relationship with meme coins. I don't believe in banning them.
Speaker 2: I believe in the frame market, right, but there are
Speaker 2: some platforms that take advantage of people doing these things.
Speaker 2: Do you feel there needs to be some guardrails in
Speaker 2: place that, Yes, you could take your money and go
Speaker 2: invest in meme coins like you do at the casino,
Speaker 2: you go to Vegas, right, throw it on black on
Speaker 2: the roulette table, whatever, but there needs to be some
Speaker 2: guardrails to protect people here.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if we need additional guardrails. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm a firm believer that people should people should have
Speaker 1: freedom to do what they want with their money, and
Speaker 1: it's hard. And any time that you create guardrails and
Speaker 1: they're applied without really an understanding what the costs are,
Speaker 1: you make it difficult for I think the vast majority
Speaker 1: of people that know what they're doing. So some guardrails,
Speaker 1: for sure, are necessary. But do we need more than
Speaker 1: we have now? I'm not sure. And you kind of
Speaker 1: also juxtapose that with it's getting easier across the board
Speaker 1: to spend your money, right, And I think increasingly the
Speaker 1: way I've always looked at Robinhood is we're not really
Speaker 1: you know, our main competitor isn't really the traditional brokerages
Speaker 1: because most of our customers have Robbinhood accounts and they
Speaker 1: don't really think about traditional brokerage accounts, even though we're
Speaker 1: pulling assets from them at an increasing rate. But a
Speaker 1: lot of these customers would otherwise not be investing, they'd
Speaker 1: be spending that money. And so I see us competing
Speaker 1: for like the spending bucket, right, and I think the
Speaker 1: spending bucket is formidable competition. So if you make it
Speaker 1: harder to invest in any way without making it harder
Speaker 1: to spend, more and more of those assets will just
Speaker 1: be consumed in sort of like discretionary expenditure. People will
Speaker 1: be buying more you know, entertainment, They'll be subscribing to
Speaker 1: more streaming services, They'll be buying more trinkets on Amazon.
Speaker 1: So yeah, hard for me to sort of like call
Speaker 1: for more restrictions on the investing side when I know
Speaker 1: there's so many ways that you can spend your money
Speaker 1: to ill effect too.
Speaker 2: And on that note, would entertainment and the movement of tokenization,
Speaker 2: do you see brands launching tokens like Starbucks. It's a
Speaker 2: reward token, but it also trades in the open market.
Speaker 2: A sports team, the New York Knicks. We're in New York.
Speaker 2: They have a token. You hold that token, you get benefits,
Speaker 2: but you can also trade it using in DeFi Taylor
Speaker 2: Swift has our own economy. She creates a token, and
Speaker 2: we're interacting in that way from a token.
Speaker 1: Perspective, that's an interesting question. I think that that technology
Speaker 1: has been possible for some time, and not so many
Speaker 1: people have sort of like adopted that and created brand
Speaker 1: tokens even though it's been possible. I mean, you had
Speaker 1: some things like I think the NBA did something a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago. I forget what it's called. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they did like their their NFT collection that had a
Speaker 1: moment for a bit. There was one interesting use case
Speaker 1: of an NFT where someone was like selling advertiser time,
Speaker 1: so each NFT represented like a minute of advertising time
Speaker 1: on a popular podcast. But yeah, it almost It feels
Speaker 1: like either the right combination of factors haven't come into
Speaker 1: into play, or the products just aren't good enough to
Speaker 1: make to make a compelling product there, so I would
Speaker 1: like to think. So I'm surprised it hasn't been happening more.
Speaker 1: I think also creators don't really want to think about crypto.
Speaker 1: You know, when they start thinking too much about crypto,
Speaker 1: you get a little bit the adverse selection of I
Speaker 1: want to I'm getting into this because I want to
Speaker 1: make money quickly, which which I think is the danger.
Speaker 1: I think the crypto technology aspect of it has to disappear,
Speaker 1: and it's just it just needs to be better ways
Speaker 1: to do the things that they want to do anyway,
Speaker 1: like communicate with their fans, reward their fans, you know,
Speaker 1: give access to their music or catalogs, and there you're
Speaker 1: actually competing with things like Spotify. You're competing with you know,
Speaker 1: credit cards, their websites, which have you know, their social
Speaker 1: media followings. So I think there needs to be a
Speaker 1: non crypto specific need that's met better with crypto technology.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with you. I think presenting it as
Speaker 2: crypto turns off a lot of people because of headlines
Speaker 2: they've read things that have happened in the early phase
Speaker 2: of the market and technology. But if you say, here
Speaker 2: is a reward token, it's very different from the traditional
Speaker 2: reward model. It's in a self hosted wallet. If you
Speaker 2: keep holding it over time, maybe you earn rewards like
Speaker 2: staking rewards so to speak. You can also sell it
Speaker 2: on the open market. There's a financial value and that
Speaker 2: can drive the incentive because before it's just oh, here's
Speaker 2: this reward token. I'll use it maybe when I want to.
Speaker 2: But if there's a financial incentive of in the open
Speaker 2: market it's valued at something, it can grow in value.
Speaker 2: Maybe that's a key.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an interesting idea.
Speaker 2: Oh, not a bad one. You'll give me credit, right, glad.
Speaker 1: If you guys do, maybe I can collaborate on bringing
Speaker 1: something like that. We can we can work with you
Speaker 1: on a reward token on the run hood chain.
Speaker 2: I would love that that'd be great as a user,
Speaker 2: I would love that, or glad, I know we're coming
Speaker 2: up on time. So it's twenty thirty. What does Robinhood
Speaker 2: look like.
Speaker 1: Well, that's not a very long time from now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think if you look at our five
Speaker 1: year plan, Robinhood should basically be your financial super app
Speaker 1: of choice if you're in the US, so you should
Speaker 1: be able to get your check into Robinhood. I think
Speaker 1: people will still have paychecks in twenty thirty. Some might
Speaker 1: disagree with me. I don't know. Your paycheck will be
Speaker 1: on Robinhood. You're checking in savings will be on Robinhood
Speaker 1: getting a great rate, and by the way, Robinhood banking
Speaker 1: coming out soon, you'll be able to do all of
Speaker 1: your spending through Robinhood cards. I still think credit cards
Speaker 1: will be the dominant way that you spend money in
Speaker 1: twenty thirty stable coined People might disagree, but I'd be
Speaker 1: surprised if the credit card is unseeded as an instrument
Speaker 1: in the US by that time. And of course you're
Speaker 1: investing your retirement portfolio and your discretionary portfolio, which includes
Speaker 1: your crypto, should be well served at Robinhood as well.
Speaker 1: And I think if we do that, we can help
Speaker 1: manage your financial life, and we can sort of like
Speaker 1: be this family office. The same service worth individual can
Speaker 1: get from their family office should be available to the
Speaker 1: mass market at very very low cost. So all of
Speaker 1: your financial stuff should be run smoothly with you being
Speaker 1: in control. And I think that positions us well to
Speaker 1: benefit from this great wealth transfer of one hundred and
Speaker 1: twenty four trillion in assets, which is going to be
Speaker 1: accelerating over time. And I think there's no reason why
Speaker 1: a significant percentage of those assets can't be custodied at Robinhood.
Speaker 1: I think we should be the primary beneficiary as a
Speaker 1: company of that wealth transfer, and that should accrue to
Speaker 1: our end user in the form of lower costs and
Speaker 1: better products.
Speaker 2: I love it. I'm looking forward to all of those
Speaker 2: things you mentioned. Some wrap up questions. If you never
Speaker 2: founded Robinhood, what do you think you might be doing.
Speaker 1: Well. I was on a path to be a mathematics professor,
Speaker 1: so I dropped out of my math PhD as a
Speaker 1: first year. After my first year, started my first company,
Speaker 1: which was a hedge fund in New York actually, and
Speaker 1: then that one ended up not being very successful. It
Speaker 1: was kind of a quick failure, pivoted to an enterprise
Speaker 1: software company again in finance, and then you know, ended
Speaker 1: up starting Robinhood. But I like figuring things out. I
Speaker 1: like having lots and lots of impact, and I liked
Speaker 1: wrestling with the big questions. So probably something to do
Speaker 1: with math or physics.
Speaker 2: Sure, some rapid fire questions. Favorite food, pizza, favorite musician
Speaker 2: or band Pink Floyd, favorite.
Speaker 1: Movie pulp fiction, favorite book brief History of Time?
Speaker 2: And when you're not working at Robinhood, what are you
Speaker 2: doing for fun?
Speaker 1: I like to work out. I like to go for drives.
Speaker 1: I have a family, so I like to hang out
Speaker 1: with my kids watching movies or building legos or sometimes
Speaker 1: even changing diapers. They do enjoy that. Yeah, And you know, honestly,
Speaker 1: not much free time exists. It's like my sleep time
Speaker 1: is very limited. Actually, it's like I have so little
Speaker 1: free time that sleep is like three to four hours
Speaker 1: a night, no way pretty much? Yeah, wow, sometimes less.
Speaker 2: Oh man, Well, you're a busy individual, and I thank
Speaker 2: you so much for taking time to do this. I
Speaker 2: really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much. It was a lot of fun.