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<v Speaker 1>Hi, I'm doctor Scott and I'm doctor Shiloh.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is La Not So Confidential, the Forensic Psychology

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<v Speaker 2>and True crime podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>In each episode, we explore the intersection of psychology, the

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<v Speaker 1>criminal justice system, and entertainment.

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<v Speaker 2>And today our episode is in the forensic psychtopic of

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<v Speaker 2>when bad things Happen to wealthy people.

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<v Speaker 1>Hello everyone, Welcome back, Happy April to our listeners. How

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<v Speaker 1>you doing, doctor Scott.

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<v Speaker 2>So far, so good. We are organizing and kind of

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<v Speaker 2>moving into this new schedule that we've been doing since

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<v Speaker 2>the beginning of the year. It's kind of working for us.

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like I've had more time to catch up

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<v Speaker 2>you too, life than I have in a very long time,

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<v Speaker 2>which is kind of a good thing. There's a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of stuff that's been on the back burner that I'm

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<v Speaker 2>getting to finalize, which is good.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I also feel like I'm in this lull at work.

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<v Speaker 1>Usually I have, you know, sort of like presentations or

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<v Speaker 1>trainings that are on my schedule and calendar that I'm

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<v Speaker 1>constantly trying to prep for, and I kind of feel

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<v Speaker 1>like I'm in a lull which I'm enjoying, like making

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<v Speaker 1>myself enjoy because usually it's like flying by the seat

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<v Speaker 1>of my pants. But I think this is contributing to it,

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<v Speaker 1>like a little more time baked in for us and

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<v Speaker 1>just our regular lives. But there are moments of I

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<v Speaker 1>should be doing something, What am I forgetting?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it's a lesson for everybody too. As

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<v Speaker 2>I have shared in the last couple of episodes, I

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<v Speaker 2>have transitioned to another position. I'm no longer in the

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<v Speaker 2>co responder slash law enforcement position that I was for

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<v Speaker 2>the past seven and a half years. I've gone into

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<v Speaker 2>something that actually is a little bit more forensically oriented,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's been a fantastic opportunity for me to turn

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<v Speaker 2>on another part of my brain that's been like that's

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<v Speaker 2>been an idle mode for a few years. So that's

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<v Speaker 2>really great. But as I have told doctor Shiloh several times,

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<v Speaker 2>it's been really jarring because I didn't realize the train

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<v Speaker 2>that I was on for the past seven and a

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<v Speaker 2>half years, the train I was on was a high

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<v Speaker 2>speed rail going one hundred and seventy five miles an hour.

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<v Speaker 2>Just because there was always like every morning was walking

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<v Speaker 2>into what crisis do I have to address this morning?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, what are we going to have to jump

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<v Speaker 2>to are we going to have to run to a barricade?

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<v Speaker 2>Are we going to have to go to a hospital?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, our family members blowing up my phone, that

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<v Speaker 2>kind of thing, And it just became the norm, and

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<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of effects on it. I mean, I

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<v Speaker 2>think anybody working in emergency services to any degree has

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<v Speaker 2>that sort of experien So shifting from that over the

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<v Speaker 2>past three months has been like, well, I'm supposed to

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<v Speaker 2>be doing something right now, it's like, oh no, I

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<v Speaker 2>actually already did like a day's work in the first

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<v Speaker 2>three hours of the day because that's the pace I'm

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<v Speaker 2>used to working at. Yeah, and I will say this,

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<v Speaker 2>my sleep has improved immeasurable nice, Like I did not

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<v Speaker 2>realize how much my sleep had been impacted since COVID

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<v Speaker 2>when thing's really ramped up for us. So how about you,

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<v Speaker 2>So instead of.

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<v Speaker 1>The train analogy, if we take your frog one, you

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<v Speaker 1>have plucked yourself out of the boiling pot of water.

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<v Speaker 1>Now you're like in a lukewarm little simmer.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but I may have like boiled off chuplate legs

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<v Speaker 2>or something. I'm not sure, just dragging myself my little

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<v Speaker 2>frog hands around the office right.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, we actually would like to burn off a couple

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<v Speaker 1>layers of skin if we could do that in a

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<v Speaker 1>healthy way.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well you and I do anyway.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, So that's where we're at. I hope you guys

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<v Speaker 1>are slowing down when you can too, but we are

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<v Speaker 1>not slowing down in terms of things that we have

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<v Speaker 1>planned for in person. So we want to remind everyone

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<v Speaker 1>that coming up very soon April eleventh, it's a Friday,

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<v Speaker 1>we are going to have a very casual meetup. Come

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<v Speaker 1>hang with us at Bikeshed in downtown LA. It's in

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<v Speaker 1>the Arts district, very cool space. We did a meetup

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<v Speaker 1>before Crime con UK at their London location and we

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<v Speaker 1>just adore them and they have such an amazing cool

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<v Speaker 1>restaurant and lounge area where they totally welcome LA not

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<v Speaker 1>so confidential. So if you're traveling in from out of town,

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<v Speaker 1>like we said before, reach out to us if you

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<v Speaker 1>need a place to stay, not meaning like we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to put you up ourselves, but like we can point

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<v Speaker 1>you towards a safe area in downtown to stay. Parking

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<v Speaker 1>in the Arts district is a huge pain, so I

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<v Speaker 1>will just say come prepared for that. Maybe have to

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<v Speaker 1>walk a block or so. If you do park yourself

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<v Speaker 1>or Uber's a way to go for sure as well.

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<v Speaker 2>And we'll also post the closest available parking places we

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<v Speaker 2>could do that, yeah there, and or if you wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to park someplace that's more centrally located in downtown LA,

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<v Speaker 2>like this is the secure high end parking structure and

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<v Speaker 2>then Uber from there. I know that sounds a little complex,

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<v Speaker 2>long story short, it's worth that the Bike Shed it

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<v Speaker 2>is a very cool, very cool venue that we love.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, for sure, all right, should we get to

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<v Speaker 1>our last episode recap, let's do it.

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<v Speaker 2>So. In our last episode, we brought you a live

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<v Speaker 2>streamed conversation with our esteemed editor and creative producer and

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<v Speaker 2>post production sorcerer, Jason Usri. He is the creative genius

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<v Speaker 2>behind Santa Maybe a Criminal, the satire true crime podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>He has launched a new podcast of a very different

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<v Speaker 2>nature called Inconceivable, The Story of Timogen kin Zu, which

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<v Speaker 2>is a real time journey into the seemingly wrong conviction

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<v Speaker 2>of mister Kenzu for the murder of Scott Macklum in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty six in Port Huron, Michigan. It's not a satire,

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<v Speaker 2>and like all of his projects, Jason's heart and empathy

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<v Speaker 2>leads the way as he attempts to inch closer to

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<v Speaker 2>justice for both of these men. If you want to

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<v Speaker 2>catch these conversations live, follow us on Facebook and Instagram

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<v Speaker 2>for livestream dates, or check out our link tree, which

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<v Speaker 2>you can find in the show notes.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, so on for our topic today. We find

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<v Speaker 1>this incredibly timely and have had this kind of in

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<v Speaker 1>our back pocket for a couple of months. Here. The

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<v Speaker 1>phrase eat the rich originates from the writings of Jean

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<v Speaker 1>Jacques Rousseau, an eighteenth century French philosopher, and it's often

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<v Speaker 1>attributed to a paraphrase of his idea that quote, when

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<v Speaker 1>the people shall have nothing more to eat, they will

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<v Speaker 1>eat the rich close quote. While there's no direct evidence

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<v Speaker 1>that he wrote these exact words, the sentiment aligns with

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<v Speaker 1>views on economic inequality and the corruption of the aristocracy.

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<v Speaker 1>This idea was a reaction to the extreme wealth disparity

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<v Speaker 1>leading up to the French Revolution, which was like seventeen

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<v Speaker 1>eighty nine to seventeen ninety nine, where resentment against the

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<v Speaker 1>ruling class fueled radical political movements. So do you hear

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<v Speaker 1>the people sing, doctor Scott? You like that? You like

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<v Speaker 1>that I'm finally the one to put a musical reference

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<v Speaker 1>in our intro.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm so proud of you. I'm just like so moved.

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<v Speaker 2>That's not like in my top five favorite musicals, but

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<v Speaker 2>it is, like the lyrics are really fantastic. I wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to also comment that, like, you know, we're framing a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of today's episode within the context of what is

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<v Speaker 2>going on in our nation's administration right now, which is

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<v Speaker 2>really difficult for a lot of people. When I looked

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<v Speaker 2>at like the little script note that you have here

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<v Speaker 2>that the French Revolution was between seventeen eighty nine and

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<v Speaker 2>seventeen ninety nine, I was like, fucked ten years of

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<v Speaker 2>this shit. Oh my god, sorry for the language, folks.

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<v Speaker 2>This is no holds barred with this stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Seriously, yes, leaves a Rob. I can't believe it's not

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<v Speaker 1>in your top five. Well I believe that, Actually I do.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean I like it. It's just not like I

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<v Speaker 2>don't come away from it feeling buoyed.

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<v Speaker 1>Hmmm. Interesting. Interesting. Well, when I saw Wicked for the

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<v Speaker 1>first time, I was like, eh, that was okay, Oh.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you either get it the first time or you don't.

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<v Speaker 2>But apparently now the movie is bringing over like tons

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<v Speaker 2>of things, which is.

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<v Speaker 1>Cool, totally Well. Since then, eat the Rich has been

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<v Speaker 1>used in various political and cultural context to criticize economic inequality, capitalism,

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<v Speaker 1>and elite privilege. It has resurfaced in modern times as

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<v Speaker 1>a slogan for wealth redistribution, social justice movements, and even

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<v Speaker 1>pop culture references. So let that set the scene for

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<v Speaker 1>our episode today. I'm going to pop in with just

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<v Speaker 1>our trigger as well. We are talking about assassination by

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<v Speaker 1>gun violence. We're talking about man made disasters, which we

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<v Speaker 1>don't talk about very often, but I know that sort

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<v Speaker 1>of freaks people out, and you probably know what we're

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<v Speaker 1>talking about, but you definitely will by the end of

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<v Speaker 1>this episode. So again, just listen with care with some

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<v Speaker 1>of those things coming up today, right.

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<v Speaker 2>So, now would be the perfect time for quote unquote

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<v Speaker 2>eat the Rich media to take off. Prices are skyrocketing,

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<v Speaker 2>and younger generations millennials and Gen Z are working longer

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<v Speaker 2>hours for less pay than their parents. And even though

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<v Speaker 2>they're the most educated generation ever, they're buried in debt

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<v Speaker 2>and still struggling to make ends meet. Meanwhile, the gap

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<v Speaker 2>between the wealthy and everybody else keeps growing. CEO pay

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<v Speaker 2>has shot up by a staggering one thousand, four hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and sixty percent over the last few decades, now averaging

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<v Speaker 2>three hundred and ninety nine times what the typical worker earns,

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<v Speaker 2>without any proof that they're working harder or smarter. In fact,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of proof that's showing that they don't

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<v Speaker 2>work harder and they don't work smarter. America's once thriving

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<v Speaker 2>middle class is rapidly shrinking, while billionaires are multiplying. And

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<v Speaker 2>with all this happening, it's no wonder that so many

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<v Speaker 2>people are frustrated with the ultra rich and questioning how

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<v Speaker 2>this system keeps them on top.

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<v Speaker 1>After World War II, the United States experienced a remarkable

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<v Speaker 1>economic boom that led to the rise of a solid

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<v Speaker 1>and growing middle class following decades of struggles again following

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<v Speaker 1>the world wide depression after the collapse of the stock market.

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<v Speaker 1>This period, often referred to as the Great Compression, saw

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<v Speaker 1>a significant narrowing of income inequality, largely due to progressive

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<v Speaker 1>economic policies and widespread prosperity. But this boom period was

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<v Speaker 1>relatively short lived because in the decades that followed, shifting

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<v Speaker 1>government policies and tax structures then contributed to a widening

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<v Speaker 1>income gap, which led to concerns about the erosion of

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<v Speaker 1>the middle class. But let's stick with some of the

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<v Speaker 1>good stuff that happened. In the aftermath of World War II.

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<v Speaker 1>The US economy expanded rapidly, and several factors contributed to

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<v Speaker 1>this growth. We have the GI Bill, which provided returning

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<v Speaker 1>veterans with benefits such as housing, education, and unemployment assistance.

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<v Speaker 1>This legislation played a significant role in expanding the American

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<v Speaker 1>middle class by enabling millions to purchase homes and pursue

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<v Speaker 1>higher education. But and not just as a side note,

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<v Speaker 1>not all veterans were allowed to access these benefits. Black

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<v Speaker 1>servicemen and women were not included in the full span

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<v Speaker 1>of benefits, acting as federal Jim Crow style impediments. And

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<v Speaker 1>we also have the industrial expansion. The war effort had

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<v Speaker 1>revitalized American industries, leading to increased production and job creation.

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<v Speaker 1>This industrial boom continued into the post war years, providing

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<v Speaker 1>ample employment opportunities for a broad segment of the population.

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<v Speaker 1>Detroit exploded as motor city with multiple auto factories that

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<v Speaker 1>provided solid jobs for returning gis, with these jobs then

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<v Speaker 1>becoming family legacies, and then we have the Southern States

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<v Speaker 1>that boomed with widespread textile and clothing production.

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<v Speaker 2>So after World War Two, the US had some of

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<v Speaker 2>the highest tax rates in history. We call it progressive taxation,

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<v Speaker 2>especially for the wealthiest Americans. But instead of slowing the

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<v Speaker 2>economy down, these taxes absolutely acted as rocket fuel to

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<v Speaker 2>create one of the biggest middle class booms in the

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<v Speaker 2>history of the known world. This structure helped redistribute wealth

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<v Speaker 2>and fund public services that benefited the broader population, or

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<v Speaker 2>what in political terms, is known as the commons. The

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<v Speaker 2>commons is a concept that's been around since the inception

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<v Speaker 2>of this country, and it's really not talked about nearly

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<v Speaker 2>enough as it should. Unfortunately, it gets lumped into other

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<v Speaker 2>terms like socialism instead of the commons. Right after the war,

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<v Speaker 2>the top income tax rate was a staggering ninety four

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<v Speaker 2>percent for the richest Americans. So anyone making over two

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<v Speaker 2>hundred thousand a year, which in today's numbers would be

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<v Speaker 2>about three million a year. That wouldn't sound insane by

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<v Speaker 2>today's standards, but it wasn't a flat tax. People only

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<v Speaker 2>paid that high rate on income above that threshold, so

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<v Speaker 2>it's not like we're taxing of all millionaires and billionaires.

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<v Speaker 2>They are taxed for what they make over that amount,

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<v Speaker 2>and for most of the nineteen fifties, the highest tax

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<v Speaker 2>rate stayed around between ninety one and ninety two percent,

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<v Speaker 2>which meant ultra rich individuals were contributing a massive chunk

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<v Speaker 2>of their income to the government. Now, let me be

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<v Speaker 2>careful and make you understand there were also a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of taxo poles. Then. One of the reasons we have

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<v Speaker 2>theaters and parks and museums across this country is because

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<v Speaker 2>all these wealthy people were like, I got to do something,

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<v Speaker 2>I got to put some money somewhere and so I

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<v Speaker 2>can have a write off. So they created these things.

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<v Speaker 2>So in the middle of the Gilded Age, which we're

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<v Speaker 2>heading back towards, a lot of people were building things

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<v Speaker 2>for posterity. But don't be sucked into the notion that

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<v Speaker 2>they were doing it just for the good of the commons.

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<v Speaker 2>They were doing it for their own Corporate taxation rates.

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<v Speaker 2>Corporations also had high taxes at the time, between forty

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<v Speaker 2>percent and fifty percent on profits, and the estate tax,

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<v Speaker 2>which affects inherited wealth, had a top rate of seventy

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<v Speaker 2>seven percent for massive estates. Capital gains taxes on things

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<v Speaker 2>like stocks were twenty five percent, and payroll taxes for

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<v Speaker 2>Social Security were much lower than they are today. And

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<v Speaker 2>people should not be taxed on their Social Security. But

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<v Speaker 2>that's another soapbox I'm going to leave under my chair

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<v Speaker 2>for today. But within just a few decades, starting in

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<v Speaker 2>the late seventies and earth eighties, policy changes began to

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<v Speaker 2>alter the complete economic landscape.

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<v Speaker 1>So by the early nineteen sixties, President John F. Kennedy

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<v Speaker 1>pushed for tax cuts, lowering the top rate to seventy

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<v Speaker 1>percent in nineteen sixty four. But the real shift came

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<v Speaker 1>in the nineteen eighties when President Ronald Reagan slashed the

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<v Speaker 1>top rate all the way down to twenty eight percent.

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<v Speaker 1>That's when incoming quality started skyrocketing and the middle class

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<v Speaker 1>began to struggle. So this is now when we kind

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<v Speaker 1>of pivot to looking at the decline of labor unions.

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<v Speaker 1>Policies that specifically targeted labor unions led to a decrease

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<v Speaker 1>in union membership. Unions had historically played a crucial role

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<v Speaker 1>in securing better wages and working conditions for middle class workers.

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<v Speaker 1>And yes, this is a complex issue, as labor unions

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<v Speaker 1>had allowed corruption of a few powerful movers and shakers

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<v Speaker 1>to poison the well as it were. That could be

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<v Speaker 1>a great idea for another episode. But you and I

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<v Speaker 1>have worked in unions and around people who love their

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<v Speaker 1>unions for a very long time. You and I have

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<v Speaker 1>both been union representatives and board members and things.

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<v Speaker 2>That I'm a member of five unions.

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<v Speaker 1>There you go, there you go. And then there was

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<v Speaker 1>the great explosion of globalization and trade policies with free

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<v Speaker 1>trade agreements that led to the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs.

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<v Speaker 1>This shift disproportionately affected middle class workers and industries like manufacturing,

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<v Speaker 1>and contributed to job loss and wage stagnation. Detroit, the South,

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<v Speaker 1>and the Midwest, all heavily driven by manufacturing jobs, began

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<v Speaker 1>to see a closure of plants and the loss of jobs.

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<v Speaker 2>But unfortunately it did not stop. In the eighties. The

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<v Speaker 2>Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of twenty seventeen went even

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<v Speaker 2>further to reduce taxes for corporations and high income individuals.

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<v Speaker 2>Critics argued that such policies exacerbated in communequality and did

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<v Speaker 2>little to benefit the middle class. So then that led

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<v Speaker 2>to what we call middle class stagnation. Because despite overall

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<v Speaker 2>economic growth by numbers, many middle class families did not

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<v Speaker 2>see proportional increases in income. Rising costs of essentials like healthcare, education,

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<v Speaker 2>and housing further strained middle class finances. Another major shift

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<v Speaker 2>was deregulation, which means reducing government rules and restrictions on businesses.

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<v Speaker 2>This was another big focus of the Reagan era and

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<v Speaker 2>beyond here's what happened. Banks and Wall Street were deregulated,

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<v Speaker 2>which led to riskier financial practices. This played a huge

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<v Speaker 2>role in the two thousand and eight financial crisis. Corporations

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<v Speaker 2>became more powerful and many focused on maximizing shareholder profits

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<v Speaker 2>rather than paying fair wages or providing benefits. There's another

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<v Speaker 2>factor of this that we won't go too far into,

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<v Speaker 2>but this started with Nixon. When Nixon, prior to Reagan

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<v Speaker 2>being in office, actually started deconstructing the system of medical

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<v Speaker 2>care in our country. He empowered HMOs and insurance companies

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<v Speaker 2>to become for profit. Prior to that, it wasn't for profit.

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<v Speaker 2>Most people had access to care, so there were certainly

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<v Speaker 2>a lot more functional hospitals, and they worked better than

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<v Speaker 2>they do today. As things have become managed care as they.

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<v Speaker 1>Call it, yes, or as one of my very favorite

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<v Speaker 1>professors called it, mingled care. Yeah, which I think I

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<v Speaker 1>wrote into something I'm going to touch on later. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>here we are in America. Feels like we're a bit

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<v Speaker 1>of a crossroads, right and again being in there with us,

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<v Speaker 1>you guys, I know this is like an economics history episode.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe some people already know. If you don't know it,

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<v Speaker 2>I hope that will spark some interest. But it's also

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<v Speaker 2>necessary to understand how we've generated an entire generation of

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<v Speaker 2>people into wealth that may seem to have like a

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<v Speaker 2>lack of empathy. Right. For decades, Americans have been told

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<v Speaker 2>that the American dream means that anyone can climb the

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<v Speaker 2>economic ladder if they just work hard enough. And true

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<v Speaker 2>for a very narrow slice of the population, and by

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<v Speaker 2>the way, a good portion of them, we're not working

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<v Speaker 2>that hard and don't work that hard. To this day,

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<v Speaker 2>more and more people are realizing that that's not really

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<v Speaker 2>how things work. And there's also a big portion of

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<v Speaker 2>the population that chooses to live in an echo chamber

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<v Speaker 2>that has now convinced them that their lack of movement

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<v Speaker 2>on the latter of success is because others have taken

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<v Speaker 2>that opportunity away from them. Wealth and opportunity aren't as

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<v Speaker 2>accessible as we were led to believe, and inequality is

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<v Speaker 2>getting harder to ignore. So take Donald Trump for example,

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<v Speaker 2>a guy who inherited millions yet still manages to be

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<v Speaker 2>seen by many voters as a regular guy. Meanwhile, most

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<v Speaker 2>of the people who support him will never come close

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<v Speaker 2>to his level of wealth. I mean, not even in

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<v Speaker 2>one hundred lifetimes would they come that close. So it's

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<v Speaker 2>this really strange contradiction, but it speaks to how deeply

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<v Speaker 2>the idea of success and self made wealth is ingrained

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<v Speaker 2>into American culture, even when the the reality of it

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<v Speaker 2>does not match up. So at the same time, there's

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<v Speaker 2>this growing trend of financially stable young people who go

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<v Speaker 2>out of their way to avoid being seen as privileged.

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<v Speaker 2>In a world where privilege comes with social baggage, some

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<v Speaker 2>are very eager to redefine their identities in a way

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<v Speaker 2>that distances them from being labeled as part of the problem.

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<v Speaker 2>An interesting offshoot of this is the world of high fashion.

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<v Speaker 2>More and more, high fashion is moving away from anything

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<v Speaker 2>that denotes what the label is. You can see someone

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<v Speaker 2>wearing a beautiful, beautiful Kashmir coat in New York and

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<v Speaker 2>you can know that it's money from the way it's

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<v Speaker 2>cut and the way the person is walking. But it

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<v Speaker 2>has no labels on it. It's not super fancy, But

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<v Speaker 2>that coat probably costs a minimum of twelve thousand dollars.

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<v Speaker 2>That is a trend that is going on right now

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<v Speaker 2>in fashion and is being talked about. But all of this,

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<v Speaker 2>this confusion about class success identity, it shows that we're

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<v Speaker 2>still trying to figure out what economic fairness actually looks

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<v Speaker 2>like in modern America. And I know we're going on

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<v Speaker 2>and on and on about this, but this actually has

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<v Speaker 2>a direct access to mental health, and that's what we're

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<v Speaker 2>going to get to today for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>So what we're going to try to do here is

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<v Speaker 1>sort of look at the concepts and the research that

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<v Speaker 1>take these historical and sociological perspectives, and we want to

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<v Speaker 1>see how it informs the way that people feel when

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<v Speaker 1>tragedy happens to wealthy individuals or perhaps you know, maybe

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<v Speaker 1>entities or groups. As you may have noticed in more

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<v Speaker 1>recent years with the increased social media usage and content creation,

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<v Speaker 1>more insight into how people react, cope, and let their

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<v Speaker 1>views be known on everything is out there right including

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<v Speaker 1>when these high profile incidents happen. And most of this

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<v Speaker 1>content is not the kindest. It's like, where did the

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<v Speaker 1>empathy go? The empathy is erased when you're behind your

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<v Speaker 1>computer or phone.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's also being demonized in a wide spread fashion,

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<v Speaker 2>and especially in the Mani sphere and in the evangelical movement,

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<v Speaker 2>which is really absolutely mind boggling that Christianity would try

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<v Speaker 2>and deconstruct empathy, which is also compassion, and compassion is

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<v Speaker 2>in the Bible multiple times. Crazy to me.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so it's not we're not seeing people like pouring

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<v Speaker 1>out their condolences. It's generally jokes or in some cases

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<v Speaker 1>saying out loud what some of us might be shamefully

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<v Speaker 1>feeling or thinking. It of course doesn't mean everyone feels

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<v Speaker 1>this way. It's a spectrum, like always, right, But this

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<v Speaker 1>is the trend that is happening, and especially with some

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<v Speaker 1>of these things we're going to talk about today. So

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<v Speaker 1>I think a really good place to start to understand

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<v Speaker 1>this is by looking at the psychology of in groups

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<v Speaker 1>and out groups. And I want to encourage our listeners

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<v Speaker 1>think of a time when you demonstrated and us versus

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<v Speaker 1>them mentality, let's say, as related to your job. Right.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that's an easy one for everyone to do.

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<v Speaker 1>It can be how is your knowledge different from a

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<v Speaker 1>client or a customer. It can be a social group

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<v Speaker 1>maybe that you became a part of because of your job. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>No one understands what I do like this other person

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<v Speaker 1>who does what I do, whether it's none, other mental

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<v Speaker 1>health professional, somebody in law enforcement, somebody in entertainment, we

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<v Speaker 1>get it. We almost have like a language that we

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00:23:34.359 --> 00:23:36.720
<v Speaker 1>don't have to explain the backstory of it, and we

401
00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:39.160
<v Speaker 1>understand the ins and outs. I ask you to do

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<v Speaker 1>this because it demonstrates how this happens just naturally, right,

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<v Speaker 1>especially in professions that are really closely linked with our identities.

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<v Speaker 1>That's why I pick that one. We all have worked

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<v Speaker 1>at some point or another. The truth is, we feel

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<v Speaker 1>more comfortable in our in groups than in out groups

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<v Speaker 1>people that are different than us do to psychological and

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<v Speaker 1>evolutionary factors that we are not necessarily consciously aware of.

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<v Speaker 1>In groups, groups we identify with based on shared characteristics

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<v Speaker 1>like culture, interests, or background provide a sense of belonging,

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<v Speaker 1>provides a sense of safety and mutual understanding. Evolutionarily, humans

412
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<v Speaker 1>relied on tight knit groups for survival, fostering trust and

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<v Speaker 1>fostering cooperation for the betterment of the human race to

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<v Speaker 1>live on and all of that. So social identity theory

415
00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:38.759
<v Speaker 1>explains that we derive self esteem from our social group memberships,

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<v Speaker 1>leading to favoritism towards our in group and potential bias

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<v Speaker 1>against out groups. Again, this is implicit. This is something

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<v Speaker 1>that we know, hence the reason we need to be

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<v Speaker 1>aware of it, So things like discrimination doesn't happen, But

420
00:24:54.839 --> 00:24:57.680
<v Speaker 1>we're saying this is totally natural and organic and there's

421
00:24:58.119 --> 00:25:03.480
<v Speaker 1>an evolutionary reason for it. Additionally, cognitive ease plays a role,

422
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:08.480
<v Speaker 1>so this is familiarity and shared norms that make interactions

423
00:25:08.839 --> 00:25:14.160
<v Speaker 1>smoother and hence reducing uncertainty and social anxiety. There is

424
00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:18.319
<v Speaker 1>an in group bias that also occurs. Here people show

425
00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:21.319
<v Speaker 1>a pattern of favoring members of one's own in group

426
00:25:21.400 --> 00:25:25.759
<v Speaker 1>over outgroup members. Innately, this likely stems from a will

427
00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:28.440
<v Speaker 1>and a need to survive again when we were cavemen

428
00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:31.960
<v Speaker 1>living in our tribes. It also makes us as human

429
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:34.319
<v Speaker 1>beings feel good to have an in group.

430
00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:34.559
<v Speaker 2>Right.

431
00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:39.480
<v Speaker 1>Each group nourishes its own pride, its own vanity, and

432
00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:43.559
<v Speaker 1>boasts itself as superior. And another piece of that is

433
00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:47.240
<v Speaker 1>that we kind of look at others with contempt if

434
00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:51.079
<v Speaker 1>they are those outsiders. I think this also is worth

435
00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:55.799
<v Speaker 1>just really quickly speaking on the concepts of culture. Culture

436
00:25:55.960 --> 00:25:58.839
<v Speaker 1>and all the little subcultures that we are a part of,

437
00:25:59.720 --> 00:26:03.440
<v Speaker 1>is is formulated by the way that we think, how

438
00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:05.319
<v Speaker 1>that we are raised. You know, some of those core

439
00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:07.359
<v Speaker 1>beliefs that we come to have come from the way

440
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:10.920
<v Speaker 1>that we're raised. It's what makes us and in turn,

441
00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:14.319
<v Speaker 1>it's how that we end up interpreting the world and

442
00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:17.599
<v Speaker 1>how it makes sense to us. So culture is really

443
00:26:18.519 --> 00:26:21.160
<v Speaker 1>ingrained deeply within each of us, and yet it's something

444
00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:24.200
<v Speaker 1>that we don't really see that often. It impacts almost

445
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:26.519
<v Speaker 1>all of our decision making, and yet we don't explicitly

446
00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:30.359
<v Speaker 1>pay attention to it. It's the collection of thoughts, behaviors, interpretations,

447
00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:33.960
<v Speaker 1>and especially it's the investment of time into who we

448
00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:37.519
<v Speaker 1>have become. It's how people then start to see us.

449
00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:43.279
<v Speaker 1>So cultural conditioning also creates separations, It creates barriers and

450
00:26:43.319 --> 00:26:47.000
<v Speaker 1>could be filled with prejudice. What is preferable to us,

451
00:26:47.559 --> 00:26:50.759
<v Speaker 1>who we should talk to, and what attracts us is

452
00:26:50.839 --> 00:26:55.960
<v Speaker 1>culturally conditioned and cultivated. So with all of this, I

453
00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:59.759
<v Speaker 1>think one little note here about the false consensus effect

454
00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:03.759
<v Speaker 1>is mentioning. This is a pervasive cognitive bias that causes

455
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:07.039
<v Speaker 1>people to quote see their own behavioral choices and judgments

456
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:11.960
<v Speaker 1>as relatively common and appropriate to existing circumstances. And what

457
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:15.559
<v Speaker 1>we do is we overestimate how much others agree with us.

458
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:20.279
<v Speaker 1>And many factors can influence this, So, for instance, the

459
00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:23.359
<v Speaker 1>information that is available to us, which is called the

460
00:27:23.400 --> 00:27:26.319
<v Speaker 1>availability heuristic. It's how we kind of have these little

461
00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:31.200
<v Speaker 1>mental shortcuts, and then it becomes this really difficult cycle

462
00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:33.720
<v Speaker 1>to get out of when we're falling into this false

463
00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:38.400
<v Speaker 1>consensus effect. So just some psychobabble there to kind of

464
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:43.680
<v Speaker 1>tie this in, to start to understand what is part

465
00:27:43.680 --> 00:27:48.720
<v Speaker 1>of our innate, built in biological behavior that keeps us safe.

466
00:27:49.240 --> 00:27:51.400
<v Speaker 1>And then how do we sort of develop some of

467
00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:55.880
<v Speaker 1>these thought patterns that are understandable but also we need

468
00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:57.799
<v Speaker 1>to pay attention to so they don't start to lead

469
00:27:57.839 --> 00:27:59.559
<v Speaker 1>to discriminatory behaviors.

470
00:28:00.039 --> 00:28:03.480
<v Speaker 2>Yes, understandable, but can be problematic if we're not sure

471
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:07.880
<v Speaker 2>self aware. Right, And to move that forward, what's the

472
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:11.359
<v Speaker 2>impact of this on those of us that are struggling

473
00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:14.200
<v Speaker 2>in the mix. Why do we feel why do we

474
00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:19.039
<v Speaker 2>act this way? So the really good article by Mark Travers,

475
00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:22.359
<v Speaker 2>who was writing for Forbes magazine. He drills down into

476
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:27.680
<v Speaker 2>why some people who are successful want to downplay their stability,

477
00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:32.079
<v Speaker 2>and also why we love watching rich people suffer, which

478
00:28:32.119 --> 00:28:35.200
<v Speaker 2>is a really great name for an article. I have

479
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:36.880
<v Speaker 2>to say, it's really good. We're going to give you

480
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:39.559
<v Speaker 2>sort of the cliff Notes version. He points out why

481
00:28:39.640 --> 00:28:44.839
<v Speaker 2>movies like The Menu, Parasite, and Knives Out are wildly successful.

482
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:48.440
<v Speaker 2>It's not just those movies. There are great hit TV

483
00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:50.599
<v Speaker 2>shows that I waited to the last minute to watch,

484
00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:55.079
<v Speaker 2>like Succession, where the suffering may not be as grongwen

485
00:28:55.160 --> 00:28:59.359
<v Speaker 2>all as the audience walks away pretty content in the

486
00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:02.400
<v Speaker 2>misery of characters. I know I'm going to be fully

487
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:07.319
<v Speaker 2>authentic and transparent here. I was so relieved that everything

488
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:11.720
<v Speaker 2>fell apart for the most part, for the characters in Succession,

489
00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:16.039
<v Speaker 2>because for the most part they were just all complete narcapaths.

490
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:19.400
<v Speaker 1>Interesting. You had the feeling of relief, like not just

491
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:21.880
<v Speaker 1>like Glee or like oh yeah, stick it to the man,

492
00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:24.000
<v Speaker 1>but like relief. That's so interesting.

493
00:29:24.319 --> 00:29:26.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, right, so relief. And I mean, if I'm going

494
00:29:26.599 --> 00:29:28.440
<v Speaker 2>to try and look at it objectively, I'm going to

495
00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:30.680
<v Speaker 2>say I feel relief because I guess it gives me

496
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:33.880
<v Speaker 2>a sense that maybe there's some justice. But it's also

497
00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:37.519
<v Speaker 2>writing for TV and maybe you know, like TV writers

498
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:41.119
<v Speaker 2>are artists, but then their writers are also showrunners that

499
00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:43.559
<v Speaker 2>have to make money on a show. So what is

500
00:29:43.640 --> 00:29:46.720
<v Speaker 2>going to sell? How can you get your message across

501
00:29:46.759 --> 00:29:50.480
<v Speaker 2>but also still sell a product? So these productions all

502
00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:53.640
<v Speaker 2>have in common something that makes them even more appealing.

503
00:29:53.799 --> 00:29:56.880
<v Speaker 2>They show rich people struggling, and let's be honest, a

504
00:29:56.920 --> 00:29:59.359
<v Speaker 2>lot of us love seeing the wealthy go through hard times.

505
00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:02.319
<v Speaker 2>I mean, even Shit's Creek one of my favorite all

506
00:30:02.359 --> 00:30:04.160
<v Speaker 2>time shows, and it's a go to show when I'm

507
00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:07.960
<v Speaker 2>like having a bad day. Yeah, it starts with the

508
00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:11.559
<v Speaker 2>premise that the roses all need to be taken down

509
00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:15.839
<v Speaker 2>a few notches, but it's an absolutely lovely character arc

510
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:18.200
<v Speaker 2>that we all get to go, oh, look, they're human

511
00:30:18.759 --> 00:30:21.799
<v Speaker 2>and they can develop. There's something in there, and we

512
00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:26.079
<v Speaker 2>should give that sort of possibility for almost everyone. But

513
00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:28.759
<v Speaker 2>this is also the real world, right.

514
00:30:28.599 --> 00:30:30.759
<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah exactly, And what you're saying, you know, just

515
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:32.799
<v Speaker 1>kind of this start and lead up of what we

516
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:36.920
<v Speaker 1>love to consume in terms of media and entertainment. It's

517
00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:39.920
<v Speaker 1>art imitating life, like it's the epitome of that saying

518
00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:40.200
<v Speaker 1>in a.

519
00:30:40.119 --> 00:30:43.799
<v Speaker 2>Way, absolutely, and it's what's fascinating to me because we're

520
00:30:43.839 --> 00:30:48.839
<v Speaker 2>watching Paradise right now. So Paradise is a post apocalyptic

521
00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:52.440
<v Speaker 2>or apocalyptic drama, like because there's some things happening concurrently,

522
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:56.519
<v Speaker 2>which is really well constructed and for me actually kind

523
00:30:56.519 --> 00:30:58.559
<v Speaker 2>of hard to watch. There are some things that's so good,

524
00:30:58.599 --> 00:31:01.680
<v Speaker 2>there's some things that really disturbed me about it. But

525
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:04.440
<v Speaker 2>they started planning that show like two and a half

526
00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:06.799
<v Speaker 2>years ago and shooting it. It's like, wait, you saw

527
00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:10.319
<v Speaker 2>this kind of coming? Hold wrap because it's so precient,

528
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:12.799
<v Speaker 2>you know. But I think that's also what really good

529
00:31:12.839 --> 00:31:16.000
<v Speaker 2>writing does that sort of looks at what's happening right

530
00:31:16.039 --> 00:31:19.319
<v Speaker 2>now and projects like, well, if this is happening, then

531
00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:21.839
<v Speaker 2>the sequal a could be this. And it's not just

532
00:31:21.880 --> 00:31:26.640
<v Speaker 2>in movies either. Protests, memes, even social media jokes will

533
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:29.480
<v Speaker 2>often take aim at billionaires and the ultra rich. And

534
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:32.960
<v Speaker 2>there's a reason eat the rich has become a popular

535
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:36.759
<v Speaker 2>catchphrase again because it taps into a deeper frustration with

536
00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:41.920
<v Speaker 2>wealth inequality. But the question is, why do people actually

537
00:31:42.079 --> 00:31:45.920
<v Speaker 2>enjoy watching the downfall of the rich? Is it? David

538
00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:50.640
<v Speaker 2>taking down Goliath, you know Traverse reviews some of our peers,

539
00:31:50.680 --> 00:31:53.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, those in our field of psychology that have

540
00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:56.480
<v Speaker 2>been doing research on this subject. And he really boils

541
00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:00.480
<v Speaker 2>it down into a few salient points, very very acutely. First,

542
00:32:00.920 --> 00:32:03.160
<v Speaker 2>and I'm so glad at this point at the beginning,

543
00:32:03.160 --> 00:32:05.799
<v Speaker 2>because it is one of my favorite words in the world.

544
00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:08.799
<v Speaker 2>It has been and like I'm telling on myself, I'm

545
00:32:08.839 --> 00:32:12.799
<v Speaker 2>telling on how little evolved I am. And that is schadenfreude.

546
00:32:13.480 --> 00:32:17.359
<v Speaker 2>And schadenfreude is the German word for harm joy, basically

547
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:21.680
<v Speaker 2>feeling pleasure at someone else's misfortune, and it's out of

548
00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:25.000
<v Speaker 2>the context of desiring come up, thence right and come up.

549
00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:27.720
<v Speaker 2>And since from being from southern culture, believe me, getting

550
00:32:27.799 --> 00:32:30.559
<v Speaker 2>too big for your breeches was a big part of

551
00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:33.240
<v Speaker 2>like my upbringing in our family culture. And I think

552
00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:38.079
<v Speaker 2>it's also it's important for people who actually individually have

553
00:32:38.279 --> 00:32:42.039
<v Speaker 2>gone through hard times, they have faced hardships, they can

554
00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:45.519
<v Speaker 2>get a little bit of, you know, a tickle, like saying, okay,

555
00:32:45.640 --> 00:32:49.640
<v Speaker 2>finally that person is actually having to face real life

556
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:53.839
<v Speaker 2>right now, let's I want to be also for with like,

557
00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:55.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, pleasure at someone else's pain is a bit

558
00:32:55.960 --> 00:32:59.920
<v Speaker 2>like sadism. This is different though, because, in really my

559
00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:03.079
<v Speaker 2>clinical opinion, it is the inward and the outward expression

560
00:33:03.559 --> 00:33:09.160
<v Speaker 2>of a desire for stability and a reflection of some

561
00:33:10.039 --> 00:33:15.839
<v Speaker 2>healthy parts of righteousness and some unhealthy aspects of self righteousness.

562
00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:18.200
<v Speaker 2>So there's a thin line there that I think a

563
00:33:18.200 --> 00:33:21.160
<v Speaker 2>lot of people are not particularly aware of. And while

564
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:25.319
<v Speaker 2>I am way familiar with schadenfreude, like I said, I mean,

565
00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:27.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm working on tapping it down. Don't worry, folks, I'm

566
00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:30.920
<v Speaker 2>really working on it. Travers finds some great research on

567
00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:34.559
<v Speaker 2>emotional experience that pulls from a journal called New Ideas

568
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:38.039
<v Speaker 2>in Psychology, and the writer breaks the concept down into

569
00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:39.960
<v Speaker 2>three main types, which is kind of amazing because I

570
00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:42.799
<v Speaker 2>didn't really think that you would be able to further

571
00:33:42.920 --> 00:33:45.559
<v Speaker 2>boil that down as a concept. But this is interesting.

572
00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:50.000
<v Speaker 2>So first of all, he says, rivalry schadenfreude. We naturally

573
00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:54.000
<v Speaker 2>compare ourselves to others, especially those who have more guilty.

574
00:33:54.119 --> 00:33:58.000
<v Speaker 2>Like I'm pounding a buzzer right now, right when someone

575
00:33:58.039 --> 00:34:01.359
<v Speaker 2>of higher status stumbles, it can make us feel better

576
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:06.720
<v Speaker 2>about our own situation. Number two, aggression schadenfreuda, and this

577
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:10.840
<v Speaker 2>comes from an us versus them mindset. When wealthy elites

578
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:17.079
<v Speaker 2>them in this equation struggle, it reinforces our sense of

579
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:21.599
<v Speaker 2>belonging to the us, the regular people. And what's wild

580
00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:26.760
<v Speaker 2>is I know some people that have never been regular people. Yeah,

581
00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:29.639
<v Speaker 2>they will never be regular people, but they really do

582
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:32.239
<v Speaker 2>see themselves as regular people. I mean, I'm talking about

583
00:34:32.280 --> 00:34:35.599
<v Speaker 2>people that I know that are from generation after generation

584
00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:38.800
<v Speaker 2>after generation of ultra wealthy. They've had a rarefied life

585
00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:42.920
<v Speaker 2>their entire existence. But God love you for that perspective.

586
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:48.280
<v Speaker 2>And finally, there's justice schadenfreuda, and this is about fairness.

587
00:34:48.920 --> 00:34:52.000
<v Speaker 2>If someone who seems undeserving of their wealth or power

588
00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:55.519
<v Speaker 2>faces consequences, it feels like justice is being served. Like

589
00:34:55.639 --> 00:34:57.880
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of new money that's been generated by

590
00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:01.119
<v Speaker 2>probably the top five percent of influencers in the world.

591
00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:04.719
<v Speaker 2>And when they act like assholes or jerks, where they

592
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:07.599
<v Speaker 2>do things that hurt other people or annoy other people,

593
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:11.039
<v Speaker 2>those are the ones that you like, really enjoy the

594
00:35:11.079 --> 00:35:13.599
<v Speaker 2>come upance up, I believe. In other words, when they're

595
00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:18.079
<v Speaker 2>rich who often seem untouchable finally face some hardship, it

596
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:21.599
<v Speaker 2>feels like there's a balance that is being restored.

597
00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:27.039
<v Speaker 1>Hence your feeling of relief right exactly. So following shot

598
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:29.039
<v Speaker 1>in Freuda, did I say that right? I'm so glad

599
00:35:29.079 --> 00:35:31.079
<v Speaker 1>you said it twenty times before I had to say it.

600
00:35:31.559 --> 00:35:33.840
<v Speaker 2>Now watch me be pronouncing it wrong. That's what I've

601
00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:34.960
<v Speaker 2>always I was always.

602
00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:36.320
<v Speaker 1>Thought, first, we'll get an email.

603
00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:38.960
<v Speaker 2>Oh, we'll get more than one email. God knows, we

604
00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:40.440
<v Speaker 2>got a lot this last week.

605
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:44.800
<v Speaker 1>So following shot in Freuda, there's also the issue of

606
00:35:44.840 --> 00:35:48.159
<v Speaker 1>social comparison, sort of this like at least I'm not

607
00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:53.559
<v Speaker 1>them mentality. Another reason we enjoy seeing rich people suffer

608
00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:57.760
<v Speaker 1>is because of the social comparison theory, basically the idea

609
00:35:57.760 --> 00:36:01.119
<v Speaker 1>that we determine our own worth by comparing ourselves to others.

610
00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:04.760
<v Speaker 1>So research from the Journal of Applied Social Psychology explains

611
00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:09.679
<v Speaker 1>that these comparisons go two ways. The first is upward comparisons,

612
00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:12.800
<v Speaker 1>So when we compare ourselves to people who are better off,

613
00:36:13.320 --> 00:36:17.119
<v Speaker 1>it can be motivating or it can be depressing, hence

614
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:21.760
<v Speaker 1>the massive increase in depression and isolation that emerges from

615
00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:25.800
<v Speaker 1>hours of scrolling on Instagram and other social media platforms,

616
00:36:26.519 --> 00:36:30.440
<v Speaker 1>or just existing in a world where the wealth disparity

617
00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:34.679
<v Speaker 1>is so huge. Right, then there's also downward comparisons so

618
00:36:34.760 --> 00:36:37.800
<v Speaker 1>this is comparing ourselves to people who are worse off

619
00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:41.800
<v Speaker 1>makes us feel better about our own situation. I think

620
00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:44.760
<v Speaker 1>I was even told that growing up as a way

621
00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:48.199
<v Speaker 1>of coping of like someone always has it worse. It's like, Okay,

622
00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:50.559
<v Speaker 1>I guess that's what I'll hang on to right now.

623
00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:55.039
<v Speaker 2>At least I'm not dying in a gutter. Right But

624
00:36:55.320 --> 00:36:57.599
<v Speaker 2>then again, that's also I think you're talking about something

625
00:36:57.639 --> 00:37:01.400
<v Speaker 2>that's really important, that it's really to Protestant work ethic

626
00:37:01.480 --> 00:37:03.519
<v Speaker 2>and a lot of sort of some of the even

627
00:37:03.559 --> 00:37:06.400
<v Speaker 2>the founders of our country were Deists, although a lot

628
00:37:06.440 --> 00:37:09.679
<v Speaker 2>of people would like to frame them as Christians, but

629
00:37:09.880 --> 00:37:12.679
<v Speaker 2>that was a completely different dynamic. But in a lot

630
00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:20.320
<v Speaker 2>of sort of post Protestant thinking and ideology about wealth

631
00:37:20.679 --> 00:37:25.880
<v Speaker 2>and poverty is that you are encouraged to minimize or

632
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:30.920
<v Speaker 2>negate your own feelings by comparing yourself to other people

633
00:37:30.920 --> 00:37:33.039
<v Speaker 2>instead of like staying in the moment, rather than compare

634
00:37:33.079 --> 00:37:35.840
<v Speaker 2>yourself to somebody that's worse off, or feel bad about

635
00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:38.719
<v Speaker 2>somebody that's doing much better, it's better to you know,

636
00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:41.840
<v Speaker 2>be in the center, in this mindful present state of

637
00:37:42.760 --> 00:37:46.039
<v Speaker 2>this is really tough. What can I find that is

638
00:37:46.119 --> 00:37:48.880
<v Speaker 2>going right? What can I be grateful for and how

639
00:37:48.920 --> 00:37:50.320
<v Speaker 2>can I keep moving forward?

640
00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:51.199
<v Speaker 1>There? We do.

641
00:37:51.639 --> 00:37:54.440
<v Speaker 2>So there's like a mental health perspective.

642
00:37:53.960 --> 00:37:56.320
<v Speaker 1>Right, Yeah, I'm sure you and I say that to

643
00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:59.840
<v Speaker 1>people a million times in therapy. Right, It's like focusing

644
00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:03.280
<v Speaker 1>on what you're grateful for today? But yeah, I mean,

645
00:38:03.519 --> 00:38:08.039
<v Speaker 1>social comparison theory kind of plays into this notion of

646
00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:12.199
<v Speaker 1>when we see a billionaire lose their fortune, it creates

647
00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:15.599
<v Speaker 1>a weird kind of mixed comparison. They might still be

648
00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:18.960
<v Speaker 1>richer overall, but for that moment, we feel like we're

649
00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:22.599
<v Speaker 1>actually in a better position than they are, and watching

650
00:38:22.599 --> 00:38:26.000
<v Speaker 1>them fall reminds us that money doesn't protect people from

651
00:38:26.440 --> 00:38:29.239
<v Speaker 1>sometimes just playing bad luck, which in a strange way

652
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:31.960
<v Speaker 1>we then end up find kind of comforting.

653
00:38:32.440 --> 00:38:36.559
<v Speaker 2>Finally, and a clear huge factor in the current narrative,

654
00:38:36.679 --> 00:38:41.039
<v Speaker 2>we have the anti capitalist zeitgeist, So a lot of

655
00:38:41.079 --> 00:38:44.840
<v Speaker 2>this mindset isn't just about individual billionaires. It's about frustration

656
00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:48.320
<v Speaker 2>with the system itself, and the system clearly is broken.

657
00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:51.960
<v Speaker 2>In a twenty twenty three study on attitudes towards capitalism

658
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:55.039
<v Speaker 2>found that in thirty four countries, most people were skeptical

659
00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:58.480
<v Speaker 2>of capitalism and believe it only benefits the rich. While

660
00:38:58.519 --> 00:39:01.559
<v Speaker 2>wealth and equality keeps growing, average person feels more and

661
00:39:01.639 --> 00:39:04.920
<v Speaker 2>more stuck in a system that favors the ultra wealthy.

662
00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:08.119
<v Speaker 2>And they're not wrong, by the way. So seeing rich

663
00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:11.719
<v Speaker 2>people suffer, whether in movies, news headlines, or social media jokes,

664
00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:15.320
<v Speaker 2>it offers an emotional release, you know, like you pointed

665
00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:18.400
<v Speaker 2>out in me, it was relief, relief release, right. The

666
00:39:18.519 --> 00:39:21.400
<v Speaker 2>article suggests that this collective frustration plays a huge role

667
00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:25.880
<v Speaker 2>and why people enjoy watching wealthy struggle. It's not just

668
00:39:25.880 --> 00:39:29.079
<v Speaker 2>about laughing at billionaires. It's wanting to see fairness in

669
00:39:29.159 --> 00:39:32.280
<v Speaker 2>a world that often seems very, very unfair.

670
00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:38.719
<v Speaker 1>So we also wanted to look at you know, we

671
00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:41.920
<v Speaker 1>need to be fair. Here a bit, what emotional issues

672
00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:44.480
<v Speaker 1>do wealthy people struggle with? It's our little segment on

673
00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:49.960
<v Speaker 1>building empathy today. Right, So we have an article from

674
00:39:50.119 --> 00:39:53.360
<v Speaker 1>the New York Post entitled, oh no, the rich are

675
00:39:53.400 --> 00:39:56.880
<v Speaker 1>sad New Yorkers couldn't care less. This is just.

676
00:39:56.840 --> 00:39:59.079
<v Speaker 2>Fullat such a good article title.

677
00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:02.440
<v Speaker 1>Right right, This is like the Snark title episode, which

678
00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:03.280
<v Speaker 1>is perfect.

679
00:40:03.800 --> 00:40:06.199
<v Speaker 2>Are you watching Loki or did you watch the Loki show?

680
00:40:06.760 --> 00:40:09.719
<v Speaker 1>My hubby watched it, so I saw bits and pieces.

681
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:13.079
<v Speaker 2>So Loki now becomes an antihero in the Marvel series

682
00:40:13.159 --> 00:40:17.039
<v Speaker 2>because of course Hittleston is just like an unbelievably charming

683
00:40:17.079 --> 00:40:19.360
<v Speaker 2>actor and like, I'm sure they had no idea this

684
00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:23.400
<v Speaker 2>was going to be so popular, but he basically, by

685
00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:26.519
<v Speaker 2>virtue of the way the story is written, Loki is

686
00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:29.760
<v Speaker 2>kind of sucked off into another timeline and he's his

687
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:32.960
<v Speaker 2>powers are reduced and he basically has to take a

688
00:40:33.039 --> 00:40:35.920
<v Speaker 2>desk job and he's interviewing it. So here's a demi

689
00:40:35.960 --> 00:40:39.000
<v Speaker 2>god or a god. He's a because I'm such a nerd.

690
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:41.239
<v Speaker 2>I know he's only half as Guardian and the other

691
00:40:41.239 --> 00:40:43.320
<v Speaker 2>half is Frost Giant. But that's beside the point.

692
00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:45.000
<v Speaker 1>That's whatever the fuck that is, I.

693
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:48.639
<v Speaker 2>Know, Right, So he's interviewing someone that's going something going

694
00:40:48.679 --> 00:40:52.360
<v Speaker 2>through something really terrible, and the meme that has gotten

695
00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:57.960
<v Speaker 2>passed around he's like, oh, that's so terrible. Anyway, Yeah, yep,

696
00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:02.239
<v Speaker 2>there you go. So I was like, I'm supposed to

697
00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:06.199
<v Speaker 2>show some empathy for someone who is way far from

698
00:41:06.280 --> 00:41:09.199
<v Speaker 2>rock bottom. Oh that sounds really awful anyway.

699
00:41:09.639 --> 00:41:15.519
<v Speaker 1>Anyway, moving on, So this article was written by author

700
00:41:15.639 --> 00:41:19.280
<v Speaker 1>Catherine dun Levy, and she interviewed therapists of the rich

701
00:41:19.559 --> 00:41:23.039
<v Speaker 1>who assert that being unburdened by the challenges of finances

702
00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:27.000
<v Speaker 1>comes with its own set of problems, and New Yorkers,

703
00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:31.719
<v Speaker 1>as expected, have zero sympathy for any of it. More money,

704
00:41:31.760 --> 00:41:35.320
<v Speaker 1>more problems, they don't care. So don Levey explores the

705
00:41:35.320 --> 00:41:39.760
<v Speaker 1>struggles of the ultra wealthy, where therapists confirm that, yes,

706
00:41:40.320 --> 00:41:42.400
<v Speaker 1>even billionaires feel empty inside.

707
00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:45.639
<v Speaker 2>So she's not wrong. I mean, we're going to go

708
00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:48.119
<v Speaker 2>into a little more and more depth of what was found,

709
00:41:48.119 --> 00:41:50.519
<v Speaker 2>But I do want to provide a couple of points

710
00:41:50.519 --> 00:41:53.199
<v Speaker 2>of contacts that I think are very important in my

711
00:41:53.320 --> 00:41:57.519
<v Speaker 2>clinical private practice. I have worked with extremely wealthy individuals,

712
00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:00.679
<v Speaker 2>people who have I will say this, they are self

713
00:42:00.679 --> 00:42:04.039
<v Speaker 2>made wealthy people. These are people who have really, really

714
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:07.840
<v Speaker 2>struggled to make a lot of money, and they struggle

715
00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:10.320
<v Speaker 2>with meaning and think. You know, one of the recurring

716
00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:13.360
<v Speaker 2>things is I worked so hard to get here that

717
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:17.360
<v Speaker 2>I left parts of myself behind. How do I pull

718
00:42:17.400 --> 00:42:21.119
<v Speaker 2>those back? How do I find contentment and happiness in moments?

719
00:42:21.599 --> 00:42:24.400
<v Speaker 2>And that is really, to me, really fascinating work. So

720
00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:29.360
<v Speaker 2>I want to I'm saying that to emphasize the importance

721
00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:31.719
<v Speaker 2>of what she's writing about. But now on the other side,

722
00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:35.039
<v Speaker 2>I want to give you some context regarding this publication

723
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:39.400
<v Speaker 2>because this is of course prime New York Post material.

724
00:42:39.960 --> 00:42:44.639
<v Speaker 2>The New York Post is it's barely journalism at times.

725
00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:49.639
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it can do some incredibly interesting investigative stuff. However,

726
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:55.639
<v Speaker 2>their spin is always pretty granguinal. It's bloody, it's really fantastic,

727
00:42:55.719 --> 00:42:57.840
<v Speaker 2>and it wants to grab you by the gut with

728
00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:01.800
<v Speaker 2>its headlines. And of course, you know comedian John mulaney

729
00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:07.360
<v Speaker 2>wildly talented but problematic guy. I'm happy that you're on

730
00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:11.400
<v Speaker 2>top of your challenges. I wish you the best. But

731
00:43:11.480 --> 00:43:13.320
<v Speaker 2>he pointed out in one of his monologues that The

732
00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:17.920
<v Speaker 2>Post delivers every story with the same level of urgency,

733
00:43:17.960 --> 00:43:20.159
<v Speaker 2>whether it's about a murder or a sandwich, and that

734
00:43:20.280 --> 00:43:22.840
<v Speaker 2>is absolutely true. If you're not familiar with the Post,

735
00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:25.119
<v Speaker 2>go to the website and look at some of the

736
00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:28.360
<v Speaker 2>stuff that they write about and the titles that they generate.

737
00:43:28.599 --> 00:43:29.639
<v Speaker 2>It's very funny.

738
00:43:29.880 --> 00:43:34.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, eye catching, love them. It makes sense, grabs you right. Yeah,

739
00:43:35.079 --> 00:43:39.320
<v Speaker 1>So naturally, this piece, you know, breaks the earth shattering

740
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:42.679
<v Speaker 1>news that rich people have problems to But in all seriousness,

741
00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:46.159
<v Speaker 1>as clinicians, we both know that while money makes things

742
00:43:46.280 --> 00:43:50.920
<v Speaker 1>a lot easier quality of life, access to freedoms, including time,

743
00:43:51.559 --> 00:43:56.159
<v Speaker 1>time that allows us to develop quality relationships. Being ultra

744
00:43:56.320 --> 00:43:59.800
<v Speaker 1>rich creates its own bubble that not only creates emotional

745
00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:03.880
<v Speaker 1>challenges in the individual's inner experience, but it also distances

746
00:44:03.960 --> 00:44:08.599
<v Speaker 1>them from connection with the world at large. So Doctor

747
00:44:08.679 --> 00:44:12.280
<v Speaker 1>Carol Lieberman, a Beverly Hills psychiatrist interviewed for the piece,

748
00:44:12.840 --> 00:44:18.159
<v Speaker 1>asserted to the Post that wealthy folks often feel lonely, paranoid,

749
00:44:18.679 --> 00:44:22.920
<v Speaker 1>and purposeless, which often leads them to manufacture drama in

750
00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:27.079
<v Speaker 1>their own lives. She stated, quote, people think if I

751
00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:29.239
<v Speaker 1>had all that money, I wouldn't have a care in

752
00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:33.760
<v Speaker 1>the world. End quote. Turns out she finds that money

753
00:44:33.800 --> 00:44:36.920
<v Speaker 1>can't fix every problem, though it can buy a Rolex

754
00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:39.719
<v Speaker 1>to make you feel better for a few hours.

755
00:44:40.039 --> 00:44:42.719
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, So are you familiar with rich kids

756
00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:43.440
<v Speaker 2>of Instagram?

757
00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:44.760
<v Speaker 1>No? I am not.

758
00:44:45.400 --> 00:44:51.880
<v Speaker 2>Oh, just these unbelievably like wildly, it's not even influencers.

759
00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:55.239
<v Speaker 2>It started probably pre COVID. I remember that was the

760
00:44:55.239 --> 00:44:57.639
<v Speaker 2>first time I saw it. And it may not hopefully

761
00:44:57.639 --> 00:45:01.159
<v Speaker 2>it's kind of flashed away rapidly as it shot up,

762
00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:05.320
<v Speaker 2>But it was kids of the uber uber wealthy living

763
00:45:05.440 --> 00:45:09.679
<v Speaker 2>these like kind of unbelievable fairy tale lives, like you know,

764
00:45:10.039 --> 00:45:13.599
<v Speaker 2>two months on a yacht, you know, just but making

765
00:45:13.719 --> 00:45:16.360
<v Speaker 2>jokes about their wealth, like having their arm out with

766
00:45:16.519 --> 00:45:18.960
<v Speaker 2>like six rolexes each one of them, like you know,

767
00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:22.239
<v Speaker 2>a seventy five thousand dollars or more rolex one of them,

768
00:45:22.280 --> 00:45:24.280
<v Speaker 2>going so far as to say, this table is a

769
00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:28.440
<v Speaker 2>little wobbly, and so he uses his iPad under it

770
00:45:28.559 --> 00:45:32.920
<v Speaker 2>to level it out, like just sort of conspicuous and

771
00:45:33.239 --> 00:45:37.000
<v Speaker 2>in your face, that's gross joking. It is like, that's

772
00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:40.119
<v Speaker 2>that's exactly my reaction is. It's gross. And of course

773
00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:42.400
<v Speaker 2>they got trolled a great deal and a lot of

774
00:45:42.440 --> 00:45:46.360
<v Speaker 2>outrageous responses, which only fueled it more. I would say

775
00:45:46.440 --> 00:45:50.719
<v Speaker 2>it's primarily male posters than it is female posters, but shocking,

776
00:45:50.719 --> 00:45:54.440
<v Speaker 2>he's still pretty egregious. It is important to see how

777
00:45:54.440 --> 00:45:57.960
<v Speaker 2>this plays out in legitimate means, though, with both Lieberman

778
00:45:58.079 --> 00:46:00.960
<v Speaker 2>and don Leavy's research and their experience, it's working with

779
00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:05.119
<v Speaker 2>these individuals because CNBC previously reported that the one percent

780
00:46:05.159 --> 00:46:09.159
<v Speaker 2>struggle to maintain authentic relationships because friendships and even marriages

781
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:13.199
<v Speaker 2>often revolve about what they can provide. Basically, when you

782
00:46:13.239 --> 00:46:15.519
<v Speaker 2>have a yacht. You can never be sure if people

783
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:18.360
<v Speaker 2>like you for you or for the free boat rides right.

784
00:46:18.840 --> 00:46:21.639
<v Speaker 2>According to Lieberman, rich people aren't keeping up with the Joneses.

785
00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:25.360
<v Speaker 2>They're keeping up with the Cardassians, constantly competing with each

786
00:46:25.360 --> 00:46:29.920
<v Speaker 2>other over status symbols, and that competition it only makes

787
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:34.760
<v Speaker 2>them lonelier. The higher the level of competition, the higher

788
00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:40.039
<v Speaker 2>level of loneliness. So earlier I also mentioned the value

789
00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:44.519
<v Speaker 2>of free time, and free time is gold to struggling

790
00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:47.639
<v Speaker 2>individuals who work sixty to eighty hours a week and

791
00:46:47.719 --> 00:46:52.320
<v Speaker 2>have to try and push through exhaustion to care for families, kids, friends,

792
00:46:52.360 --> 00:46:56.360
<v Speaker 2>and self. But ironically, too much free time when you

793
00:46:56.519 --> 00:47:01.519
<v Speaker 2>don't have to work to survive, provides and simple, fruitful

794
00:47:01.559 --> 00:47:07.280
<v Speaker 2>ground for meaninglessness. So what did the rich do? They

795
00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:10.599
<v Speaker 2>get into mischief? According to Lieberman, this can mean anything

796
00:47:10.599 --> 00:47:14.519
<v Speaker 2>from gossip to affairs to straight up white collar crime.

797
00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:18.360
<v Speaker 2>When your biggest stressor is figuring out whether to vacation

798
00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:21.880
<v Speaker 2>in Aspen or the Amalfi Coast, you might start making

799
00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:25.119
<v Speaker 2>bad decisions just to feel something.

800
00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:29.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so, doctor Scott, just take a breath, because after

801
00:47:29.360 --> 00:47:32.679
<v Speaker 1>talking about these problems, you might have a challenge with

802
00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:33.280
<v Speaker 1>the next.

803
00:47:33.039 --> 00:47:35.519
<v Speaker 2>Bit I'm going to prepare myself. I'm going to do

804
00:47:35.559 --> 00:47:40.559
<v Speaker 2>a deep, deep clensing breath. Let it go, let it go,

805
00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:43.039
<v Speaker 2>let it go, let it go, let it go. There

806
00:47:43.039 --> 00:47:45.239
<v Speaker 2>you go. All right, I'm ready.

807
00:47:45.679 --> 00:47:50.039
<v Speaker 1>So, if there's anyone we should feel bad for, Lieberman says,

808
00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:52.119
<v Speaker 1>it's the kids of the ultra rich.

809
00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:53.000
<v Speaker 2>Damn it.

810
00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:56.320
<v Speaker 1>And here you were bringing up rich kids of Instagram.

811
00:47:56.519 --> 00:48:00.880
<v Speaker 1>So apparently wealthy parents are too busy hoarding money or

812
00:48:00.920 --> 00:48:04.400
<v Speaker 1>shopping or whatever to raise their own children, so kids

813
00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:08.239
<v Speaker 1>are left with nannies instead of affection. Wow, this kind

814
00:48:08.239 --> 00:48:13.719
<v Speaker 1>of like dovetails with our attachment disorder episodes, right, think

815
00:48:13.719 --> 00:48:17.360
<v Speaker 1>about that. But this in turn leads to an emptiness

816
00:48:17.519 --> 00:48:21.960
<v Speaker 1>that many try to fill with things like substance use,

817
00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:26.360
<v Speaker 1>reckless spending, risky behavior, and we see that all the time. Right,

818
00:48:26.440 --> 00:48:30.880
<v Speaker 1>So Lieberman paints a picture of little ritchie riches with

819
00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:36.760
<v Speaker 1>unlimited cash but no emotional support, which then makes them

820
00:48:36.800 --> 00:48:41.079
<v Speaker 1>more likely to spiral. So you know what you're talking

821
00:48:41.079 --> 00:48:43.360
<v Speaker 1>about of, Like, hey, let me just like make an

822
00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:48.199
<v Speaker 1>Instagram reel of my wrist with seven rolexes on it?

823
00:48:48.519 --> 00:48:50.119
<v Speaker 1>What are they doing with their day? They're not even

824
00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:52.960
<v Speaker 1>the adults that are you know, having to think about

825
00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:54.280
<v Speaker 1>making money every single day.

826
00:48:54.639 --> 00:48:58.960
<v Speaker 2>Oh this ties in with our affluenza episode as well, right, Yeah.

827
00:48:58.719 --> 00:49:01.079
<v Speaker 1>I mean we could certainly go back to that and

828
00:49:01.280 --> 00:49:05.559
<v Speaker 1>probably pull some of the psychology from that episode. But

829
00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:09.440
<v Speaker 1>when we look back at what Lieberman says and other experts,

830
00:49:09.679 --> 00:49:13.159
<v Speaker 1>the bottom line is they're saying, Okay, money doesn't solve everything.

831
00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:17.159
<v Speaker 1>And I think that's really hard for people to understand

832
00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:20.000
<v Speaker 1>because we feel like it would solve so much, right

833
00:49:20.119 --> 00:49:22.239
<v Speaker 1>if we were to be at the level and the

834
00:49:22.239 --> 00:49:24.639
<v Speaker 1>status of some of those folks. The experts say that

835
00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:29.440
<v Speaker 1>having money solves financial problems, yes, but it creates a

836
00:49:29.480 --> 00:49:33.679
<v Speaker 1>lot of emotional ones. The wealthy struggle with again this

837
00:49:33.840 --> 00:49:38.199
<v Speaker 1>isolation and paranoia and just finding sometimes a reason to

838
00:49:38.199 --> 00:49:41.000
<v Speaker 1>get out of bed in the morning, while the rest

839
00:49:41.000 --> 00:49:44.679
<v Speaker 1>of us are just trying to afford rent and our mortgages.

840
00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:48.000
<v Speaker 1>So let we're going to just talk a little bit

841
00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:50.320
<v Speaker 1>more about what some of their therapists say.

842
00:49:50.800 --> 00:49:54.800
<v Speaker 2>So therapist Clay Cockrell grew up solidly middle class in

843
00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:58.199
<v Speaker 2>Kentucky and he found himself the go to therapist for

844
00:49:58.280 --> 00:50:01.719
<v Speaker 2>a very tight knit and very wealthy circle of referrals

845
00:50:01.719 --> 00:50:04.280
<v Speaker 2>to his practice, which, for those of you that don't

846
00:50:04.320 --> 00:50:08.039
<v Speaker 2>know this that can really happen very rapidly when you're

847
00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:12.679
<v Speaker 2>starting in private practice. Yes, we have to advertise, we

848
00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:15.320
<v Speaker 2>have to have either websites or we list ourselves on

849
00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:19.280
<v Speaker 2>psychology today. But what a lot of people don't understand

850
00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:22.920
<v Speaker 2>is that if you hook into one person that really

851
00:50:22.960 --> 00:50:27.559
<v Speaker 2>connects with you as a clinician, they will refer a

852
00:50:27.639 --> 00:50:30.559
<v Speaker 2>lot of people to you, and it can be exploded.

853
00:50:30.639 --> 00:50:32.440
<v Speaker 2>It can be so much that you have to like

854
00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:36.440
<v Speaker 2>not take referrals anymore because your practice fills up so quickly.

855
00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:40.760
<v Speaker 2>So in this instance, this seems to have happened for Cockrel.

856
00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:45.880
<v Speaker 2>So his very tight, wealthy circle of referrals was literally

857
00:50:45.880 --> 00:50:48.159
<v Speaker 2>a selection of the one percent. And like Lieberman, he

858
00:50:48.400 --> 00:50:53.599
<v Speaker 2>insists that wealth comes with real emotional baggage, deep isolation, mistrust,

859
00:50:54.119 --> 00:50:57.400
<v Speaker 2>and a total lack of purpose. And he can also

860
00:50:57.519 --> 00:50:59.800
<v Speaker 2>admit that it can be difficult to watch billionaire struggle

861
00:50:59.800 --> 00:51:02.760
<v Speaker 2>inotionally while the rest of us are worrying about rent.

862
00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:05.679
<v Speaker 2>And according to Cockrell, being obscenely wealthy comes with a

863
00:51:05.719 --> 00:51:10.000
<v Speaker 2>paranoia problem. His client's echo Lieberman's early statements that clients

864
00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:13.360
<v Speaker 2>constantly worry does this person actually like me? Or do

865
00:51:13.360 --> 00:51:15.599
<v Speaker 2>they just want my money? Am I being manipulated? Who

866
00:51:15.639 --> 00:51:16.760
<v Speaker 2>can I actually trust?

867
00:51:17.480 --> 00:51:21.239
<v Speaker 1>This is exactly like the dialogue from the season of

868
00:51:21.280 --> 00:51:23.960
<v Speaker 1>White Lotus. Do you have to worry that they want

869
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:26.960
<v Speaker 1>something for me? Or they actually like my friend? This

870
00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:27.599
<v Speaker 1>is so funny.

871
00:51:27.960 --> 00:51:31.159
<v Speaker 2>The creator of White Lotus is actually riffing on this

872
00:51:31.280 --> 00:51:33.960
<v Speaker 2>in every iteration. I mean, this was seizing one was

873
00:51:34.039 --> 00:51:37.119
<v Speaker 2>absolutely part of that, and I think is a great

874
00:51:37.159 --> 00:51:41.360
<v Speaker 2>example of that relief and that schadenfreude. That is what

875
00:51:41.519 --> 00:51:45.519
<v Speaker 2>Light Lotus is all about, right, yeah, yeah, So having

876
00:51:45.559 --> 00:51:49.079
<v Speaker 2>these constant questions leads to isolation, and isolation makes it

877
00:51:49.119 --> 00:51:53.519
<v Speaker 2>hard to form real relationships. You don't have real relationships, authentic,

878
00:51:53.599 --> 00:51:59.480
<v Speaker 2>fulfilling relationships. That leads to boredom. That is really crippling.

879
00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:03.559
<v Speaker 2>Cockrell goes on to give the following scenario. Once you've

880
00:52:03.559 --> 00:52:08.000
<v Speaker 2>made or inherited enough money to never work again, what's left.

881
00:52:08.280 --> 00:52:13.000
<v Speaker 2>He believes that it leaves many millionaires feeling completely directionlessness

882
00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:17.039
<v Speaker 2>and searching for their next thrill through reckless behavior, substances,

883
00:52:17.119 --> 00:52:20.599
<v Speaker 2>or anything that can break the monotony of having too much.

884
00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:23.719
<v Speaker 2>And despite money being the foundation of their entire lives,

885
00:52:23.760 --> 00:52:26.559
<v Speaker 2>wealthy people don't like to talk about it. Cockrell says

886
00:52:26.599 --> 00:52:28.800
<v Speaker 2>that his clients would rather discuss their sex lives or

887
00:52:28.840 --> 00:52:32.440
<v Speaker 2>drug habits more than their bank accounts. Money is treated

888
00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:36.440
<v Speaker 2>as taboo, secret and even shameful, and that secrecy that

889
00:52:36.480 --> 00:52:38.599
<v Speaker 2>only makes everything worse for sure.

890
00:52:38.639 --> 00:52:41.000
<v Speaker 1>And this is where we really like that he sort

891
00:52:41.000 --> 00:52:43.519
<v Speaker 1>of takes this la not so confidential approach by using

892
00:52:43.639 --> 00:52:47.440
<v Speaker 1>media as an example, and in this case, this really

893
00:52:47.679 --> 00:52:51.239
<v Speaker 1>well produced media example, which he calls the succession effect,

894
00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:53.880
<v Speaker 1>which we've already talked about succession a little bit, because

895
00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:57.280
<v Speaker 1>if you've watched it, you've already seen the emotional disaster

896
00:52:57.440 --> 00:53:01.440
<v Speaker 1>zone that is the roy family. To Cockrell, this dynamic

897
00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:06.280
<v Speaker 1>is very real. Many billionaires spoil their kids rotten so

898
00:53:06.320 --> 00:53:08.559
<v Speaker 1>they never have to struggle the way their parents did,

899
00:53:09.039 --> 00:53:14.119
<v Speaker 1>which sounds nice on the surface, except what happens when

900
00:53:14.199 --> 00:53:19.639
<v Speaker 1>you face no hardship. You don't develop resilience, When you

901
00:53:19.800 --> 00:53:24.199
<v Speaker 1>never have to learn about money, you become financially incompetent.

902
00:53:24.800 --> 00:53:27.440
<v Speaker 1>And when you only grow up around other wealthy kids,

903
00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:32.000
<v Speaker 1>there's this startling lack of empathy. So there's all of

904
00:53:32.039 --> 00:53:34.360
<v Speaker 1>these problems that seem to be solved, but all of

905
00:53:34.400 --> 00:53:37.400
<v Speaker 1>these problems and life lessons and ways to move through

906
00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:42.000
<v Speaker 1>the world that get created. Children of the uber wealthy

907
00:53:42.199 --> 00:53:47.719
<v Speaker 1>attend elite schools, socialize with only their own kind, and

908
00:53:47.760 --> 00:53:50.880
<v Speaker 1>they grow up in a world completely detached from reality.

909
00:53:51.440 --> 00:53:55.480
<v Speaker 1>By adulthood, often they're really unprepared to manage their wealth,

910
00:53:55.599 --> 00:54:00.159
<v Speaker 1>much less take on responsibility. And Cockrell has heard countless

911
00:54:00.639 --> 00:54:04.719
<v Speaker 1>trust from babies say, we never talked about money. I

912
00:54:04.719 --> 00:54:07.679
<v Speaker 1>don't know how much there is. I have no idea

913
00:54:07.840 --> 00:54:10.360
<v Speaker 1>what I'm supposed to do with it. And you can

914
00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:14.239
<v Speaker 1>imagine how that then plays out, especially if that bubble

915
00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:18.719
<v Speaker 1>gets burst at some point. Right for them, they're completely unequipped.

916
00:54:19.239 --> 00:54:23.280
<v Speaker 2>I think about a really great example that I was

917
00:54:23.480 --> 00:54:26.039
<v Speaker 2>referring to before, which is the first season of White Lotus,

918
00:54:26.039 --> 00:54:31.079
<v Speaker 2>where Alexandra Dotdio, her character to me is so interesting

919
00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:34.599
<v Speaker 2>and has such a tragic end. No, she doesn't die,

920
00:54:34.719 --> 00:54:36.960
<v Speaker 2>but she makes a decision that, like, to me, was

921
00:54:37.079 --> 00:54:40.679
<v Speaker 2>like a complete capitulation to this system. But she's a

922
00:54:41.199 --> 00:54:43.679
<v Speaker 2>journalist or an up and coming.

923
00:54:43.440 --> 00:54:47.679
<v Speaker 1>Journalist, and she is on her honeymoon, on.

924
00:54:47.639 --> 00:54:52.440
<v Speaker 2>Her honeymoon, and she's married to the most annoying, dude,

925
00:54:52.480 --> 00:54:56.559
<v Speaker 2>bro entitled guy. You just like, go how did you

926
00:54:56.719 --> 00:54:59.119
<v Speaker 2>end up together? Like? How did you end up together?

927
00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:02.800
<v Speaker 2>And there's a couple of scenes where she goes to

928
00:55:03.599 --> 00:55:09.119
<v Speaker 2>Connie Britain and to say, I just admire you so much,

929
00:55:09.280 --> 00:55:12.039
<v Speaker 2>and Connie Brittin goes, oh, when you wrote that article

930
00:55:12.079 --> 00:55:15.239
<v Speaker 2>about me about how terrible I am? Well, no, I

931
00:55:15.280 --> 00:55:18.000
<v Speaker 2>was making this, But so there's this sort of it's like, no, I.

932
00:55:17.960 --> 00:55:20.480
<v Speaker 1>Was writing for the New York Post. No, it had

933
00:55:20.480 --> 00:55:21.840
<v Speaker 1>to be fantastic.

934
00:55:23.039 --> 00:55:26.800
<v Speaker 2>But the idea that like, okay, here you are. Journalism

935
00:55:26.960 --> 00:55:31.320
<v Speaker 2>is supposed to have this level of ethics and morals

936
00:55:31.360 --> 00:55:34.239
<v Speaker 2>about what you're doing. You are reporting what is going on,

937
00:55:34.280 --> 00:55:36.719
<v Speaker 2>and you're being truthful and you're reporting. And so she

938
00:55:36.760 --> 00:55:39.159
<v Speaker 2>gets pushed back from someone who's part of the elite

939
00:55:39.239 --> 00:55:41.840
<v Speaker 2>that she has just now married into. And then you

940
00:55:41.960 --> 00:55:47.400
<v Speaker 2>have this really really fascinating interaction with another great actress,

941
00:55:47.719 --> 00:55:51.320
<v Speaker 2>Molly Shannon coming in as her mother in law, who's like,

942
00:55:51.360 --> 00:55:55.400
<v Speaker 2>and she's just so bubbly and energetic and you can't

943
00:55:55.440 --> 00:55:58.360
<v Speaker 2>help but lover. But everything that's coming out of her

944
00:55:58.400 --> 00:56:03.239
<v Speaker 2>mouth is completely diminishing what Alexandra is trying to say.

945
00:56:03.320 --> 00:56:06.280
<v Speaker 2>She's like, why would you want to work? I mean,

946
00:56:06.320 --> 00:56:08.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, you could be on boards, you could be

947
00:56:08.360 --> 00:56:11.159
<v Speaker 2>on the board of directors for this. You can do

948
00:56:11.480 --> 00:56:14.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, just like sort of you can come and

949
00:56:14.519 --> 00:56:16.800
<v Speaker 2>play the role of someone who gives a shit rather

950
00:56:16.840 --> 00:56:19.840
<v Speaker 2>than actually being someone who gives a shit. But that's

951
00:56:19.920 --> 00:56:23.079
<v Speaker 2>all that character knows. That's all Molly Shannon knows, and

952
00:56:23.079 --> 00:56:25.440
<v Speaker 2>she's like, why would you possibly want to do it?

953
00:56:25.519 --> 00:56:28.719
<v Speaker 2>So again, I have not seen season two or season

954
00:56:28.760 --> 00:56:32.239
<v Speaker 2>three because I'm still emotionally processing everything that went down.

955
00:56:32.679 --> 00:56:35.360
<v Speaker 1>Oh man, get on it. I wish I know I

956
00:56:35.440 --> 00:56:36.159
<v Speaker 1>know about it.

957
00:56:36.519 --> 00:56:40.199
<v Speaker 2>But there is a really interesting sort of there's a

958
00:56:40.480 --> 00:56:43.320
<v Speaker 2>not a parable but a saying about this, and it

959
00:56:43.360 --> 00:56:46.320
<v Speaker 2>goes that basically, the rich inherit fortunes but have no

960
00:56:46.599 --> 00:56:49.719
<v Speaker 2>clue how to handle them, which led to this saying

961
00:56:50.199 --> 00:56:53.800
<v Speaker 2>shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves and three generations that's why

962
00:56:53.800 --> 00:56:56.840
<v Speaker 2>this exists. And what they're saying without financial education, family

963
00:56:56.880 --> 00:57:01.079
<v Speaker 2>empires crumble. I wasn't familiar with this, so I had

964
00:57:01.079 --> 00:57:03.079
<v Speaker 2>to look it up and it's defined in the following manner,

965
00:57:03.079 --> 00:57:06.760
<v Speaker 2>which I thought was great. The first generation works very hard,

966
00:57:07.159 --> 00:57:10.320
<v Speaker 2>often starting from humble beginnings, so they're in shirt sleeves

967
00:57:10.400 --> 00:57:13.440
<v Speaker 2>to build wealth. The second generation grows up with the

968
00:57:13.440 --> 00:57:17.119
<v Speaker 2>financial security and while they may still work, they don't

969
00:57:17.159 --> 00:57:20.159
<v Speaker 2>have struggles like their parents did. And then the third generation,

970
00:57:20.320 --> 00:57:24.960
<v Speaker 2>having never experienced hardship or financial discipline, squanders the wealth

971
00:57:25.320 --> 00:57:28.119
<v Speaker 2>and ends up back where the family started in shirt

972
00:57:28.159 --> 00:57:31.360
<v Speaker 2>sleeves working just to get by. Now that's not saying

973
00:57:31.400 --> 00:57:34.119
<v Speaker 2>that like complete family empires fall that it's about that

974
00:57:34.239 --> 00:57:37.519
<v Speaker 2>individual falling. And you know, I have done clinical work

975
00:57:37.639 --> 00:57:42.440
<v Speaker 2>with that third generation, with the grandparents going we worked

976
00:57:42.440 --> 00:57:45.519
<v Speaker 2>our asses off, and this is what we did. I mean,

977
00:57:45.559 --> 00:57:47.760
<v Speaker 2>this is what the result is. This makes no sense

978
00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:50.159
<v Speaker 2>to me. You know, it's just like a never ending

979
00:57:50.199 --> 00:57:51.960
<v Speaker 2>cycle in humanity, I think.

980
00:57:52.079 --> 00:57:54.639
<v Speaker 1>So let's look at some very recent case studies of

981
00:57:55.119 --> 00:57:58.920
<v Speaker 1>bad things happening to wealthy people and then the reactions

982
00:57:59.000 --> 00:58:02.480
<v Speaker 1>of the public after both of these happened. In the

983
00:58:02.480 --> 00:58:07.159
<v Speaker 1>TikTok Era, which is really its own study and human behavior,

984
00:58:07.800 --> 00:58:11.800
<v Speaker 1>it's true, Yeah, I mean, its own thing. But dovetails

985
00:58:11.840 --> 00:58:13.800
<v Speaker 1>really nicely into our topic today.

986
00:58:14.199 --> 00:58:17.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and this is another trigger warning. This is a

987
00:58:17.679 --> 00:58:20.960
<v Speaker 2>like we said earlier, this is for anybody with claustrophobia.

988
00:58:21.000 --> 00:58:23.760
<v Speaker 2>This could be really triggering. But we're going to talk

989
00:58:23.800 --> 00:58:26.760
<v Speaker 2>a little bit about the ocean Gate disaster, so on

990
00:58:26.840 --> 00:58:30.239
<v Speaker 2>June eighteenth, twenty twenty three, during a deep sea expedition

991
00:58:30.559 --> 00:58:33.239
<v Speaker 2>to the wreck of the Titanic in the North Atlantic Ocean,

992
00:58:33.320 --> 00:58:37.920
<v Speaker 2>a submersible operated by ocean Gate Expeditions lost contact with

993
00:58:38.000 --> 00:58:41.039
<v Speaker 2>its support vessel approximately one hour and forty five minutes

994
00:58:41.079 --> 00:58:45.360
<v Speaker 2>into its descent. The titan submersible was a small carbon

995
00:58:45.440 --> 00:58:50.320
<v Speaker 2>fiber titanium sub designed for deep sea exploration. This was

996
00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:54.639
<v Speaker 2>essentially a tourist expedition to view the Titanic wreck, located

997
00:58:54.840 --> 00:58:59.440
<v Speaker 2>twelve thy five hundred feet below sea level. Now that

998
00:58:59.519 --> 00:59:04.599
<v Speaker 2>paragraph that I just read is a little bit inaccurate,

999
00:59:05.199 --> 00:59:08.199
<v Speaker 2>because what comes up when you research this in the

1000
00:59:08.239 --> 00:59:11.000
<v Speaker 2>description is that on the surface level, unless you go

1001
00:59:11.039 --> 00:59:13.840
<v Speaker 2>a few pages deeper into a search, is that they

1002
00:59:13.840 --> 00:59:17.960
<v Speaker 2>do describe this small carbon fiber and titanium sub designed

1003
00:59:17.960 --> 00:59:21.559
<v Speaker 2>for deep sea exploration. What happened in the aftermath of

1004
00:59:21.599 --> 00:59:25.480
<v Speaker 2>this horrific event was many experts came forward saying, no,

1005
00:59:25.880 --> 00:59:29.639
<v Speaker 2>it absolutely was not designed to do what it was doing.

1006
00:59:30.159 --> 00:59:34.079
<v Speaker 2>We told the head of this company over and over again,

1007
00:59:34.480 --> 00:59:36.639
<v Speaker 2>and he denied it, denied it, denyed. It hadn't been

1008
00:59:36.679 --> 00:59:38.320
<v Speaker 2>a problem before, so it's not going to be a

1009
00:59:38.320 --> 00:59:41.039
<v Speaker 2>problem in the future, which is problematic thinking. But back

1010
00:59:41.079 --> 00:59:45.599
<v Speaker 2>to the story. Five people were aboard the submersible Stockton Rush,

1011
00:59:45.719 --> 00:59:48.719
<v Speaker 2>the CEO of Ocean Gate. Could you have more of

1012
00:59:48.760 --> 00:59:53.000
<v Speaker 2>a rich person sounding name than Stockton Rush, Hamish Harding,

1013
00:59:53.079 --> 00:59:57.480
<v Speaker 2>a British billionaire and adventurer, Shazada and Suliman Dawood, a

1014
00:59:57.480 --> 01:00:02.119
<v Speaker 2>Pakistani British businessman and his son. And Paul Henri Nargillla,

1015
01:00:02.719 --> 01:00:04.679
<v Speaker 2>a French Titanic expert.

1016
01:00:05.320 --> 01:00:07.800
<v Speaker 1>So, as we mentioned, after launch from the support ship,

1017
01:00:07.880 --> 01:00:11.199
<v Speaker 1>contact was lost after one hour and forty five minutes

1018
01:00:11.239 --> 01:00:14.360
<v Speaker 1>of their descent, and from there, if you'll remember that,

1019
01:00:14.440 --> 01:00:17.840
<v Speaker 1>information got out to media outlets, and it was a

1020
01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:20.880
<v Speaker 1>very long waiting game. I mean I remember as the

1021
01:00:20.920 --> 01:00:25.400
<v Speaker 1>hours went by, experts were sharing the details of perhaps

1022
01:00:25.480 --> 01:00:28.199
<v Speaker 1>what the passengers would be experiencing if they were still

1023
01:00:28.199 --> 01:00:32.320
<v Speaker 1>in the sub still alive. It was just terrific. And

1024
01:00:32.760 --> 01:00:36.039
<v Speaker 1>then hours turned into days and we all knew what

1025
01:00:36.039 --> 01:00:38.519
<v Speaker 1>that meant. You know, there was very little chance that

1026
01:00:38.559 --> 01:00:41.639
<v Speaker 1>there was anyone that survived, although we really had no

1027
01:00:41.719 --> 01:00:45.199
<v Speaker 1>idea what had happened. A large scale search and rescue

1028
01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:48.440
<v Speaker 1>operation was launched by the US and Canadian Coast Guards

1029
01:00:48.880 --> 01:00:53.159
<v Speaker 1>using everything they had aircraft, ships, and deep sea sonar equipment.

1030
01:00:53.639 --> 01:00:57.119
<v Speaker 1>On June twenty second, twenty twenty three, debris from the

1031
01:00:57.159 --> 01:01:00.760
<v Speaker 1>titan was found near the Titanic wreck, affirming that the

1032
01:01:00.800 --> 01:01:05.679
<v Speaker 1>sub had suffered a catastrophic implosion, instantly killing all five passengers.

1033
01:01:06.079 --> 01:01:09.719
<v Speaker 1>Experts believe the pressure hull failed, likely due to material

1034
01:01:09.760 --> 01:01:13.440
<v Speaker 1>fatigue or design flaws, a sub to collapse inward in

1035
01:01:13.599 --> 01:01:17.480
<v Speaker 1>just milliseconds, and honestly, at that point, that was the

1036
01:01:17.559 --> 01:01:19.760
<v Speaker 1>quickest death we really could have hoped for for these

1037
01:01:19.920 --> 01:01:23.639
<v Speaker 1>doomed individuals, because the idea of them running out of

1038
01:01:23.639 --> 01:01:28.559
<v Speaker 1>oxygen over hours was just so so hard to understand

1039
01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:31.360
<v Speaker 1>and honestly to hear when these experts would come on

1040
01:01:31.440 --> 01:01:33.519
<v Speaker 1>and be like, well, they're still alive, they're experiencing this.

1041
01:01:33.679 --> 01:01:37.119
<v Speaker 1>It was awful. Ocean Gate, as you mentioned, faced very

1042
01:01:37.159 --> 01:01:42.000
<v Speaker 1>heavy criticism for ignoring safety warnings from industry experts. The

1043
01:01:42.039 --> 01:01:47.760
<v Speaker 1>company's use of experimental carbon fiber materials was questioned, as

1044
01:01:47.800 --> 01:01:51.400
<v Speaker 1>deep sea subs typically use steel or titanium, and ocean

1045
01:01:51.400 --> 01:01:56.039
<v Speaker 1>Gate ceased operations and the disaster raised concerns over these

1046
01:01:56.159 --> 01:02:02.280
<v Speaker 1>unregulated deep sea tourism trips. To multiple reports, each passenger

1047
01:02:02.360 --> 01:02:06.159
<v Speaker 1>on the ocean Gate Expedition to the Titanic wreck paid

1048
01:02:06.519 --> 01:02:10.039
<v Speaker 1>two hundred and fifty thousand dollars each to go on

1049
01:02:10.079 --> 01:02:13.599
<v Speaker 1>this expedition. At the time, Doctor Scott like, what kind

1050
01:02:13.639 --> 01:02:17.679
<v Speaker 1>of social media content around this did you consume or

1051
01:02:17.719 --> 01:02:18.320
<v Speaker 1>were you seeing?

1052
01:02:18.519 --> 01:02:21.039
<v Speaker 2>Well, certainly, you know, right when it was happening, there

1053
01:02:21.079 --> 01:02:23.280
<v Speaker 2>was a lot of speculation and didn't really go into

1054
01:02:23.360 --> 01:02:26.880
<v Speaker 2>full bore about the audacity of it. I think that

1055
01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:29.039
<v Speaker 2>had not really kicked in. There was a little bit

1056
01:02:29.119 --> 01:02:32.079
<v Speaker 2>going on, but mainly it was the focus, like you

1057
01:02:32.119 --> 01:02:34.639
<v Speaker 2>were saying, is how could they have survived? Believe me,

1058
01:02:34.719 --> 01:02:37.679
<v Speaker 2>I am no deep sea expert at all in any

1059
01:02:38.280 --> 01:02:43.159
<v Speaker 2>any sense, but even I know about from probably science

1060
01:02:43.199 --> 01:02:46.400
<v Speaker 2>fiction and my husband working on the ABYSS, and okay,

1061
01:02:46.679 --> 01:02:48.679
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of stuff like this is like no, like

1062
01:02:48.719 --> 01:02:53.760
<v Speaker 2>the incredible pressures at depths like that, you don't die slowly,

1063
01:02:53.880 --> 01:02:59.480
<v Speaker 2>you are dead. Boom, your che collapses and collapses upon itself,

1064
01:02:59.599 --> 01:03:03.559
<v Speaker 2>like like you are stepping on a soda can and

1065
01:03:03.639 --> 01:03:06.320
<v Speaker 2>just crushing it. That's what happened immediately that, So I

1066
01:03:06.360 --> 01:03:09.079
<v Speaker 2>was like, no, they're dead. There's absolutely no way They're

1067
01:03:09.119 --> 01:03:12.800
<v Speaker 2>sitting there floating in the deep cold of the sea

1068
01:03:12.840 --> 01:03:15.239
<v Speaker 2>with no oxygen. It was like, now this is you.

1069
01:03:15.239 --> 01:03:17.760
<v Speaker 1>Know, I think, yeah that that definitely was kind of

1070
01:03:17.760 --> 01:03:24.039
<v Speaker 1>mainstream media. Definitely in the TikTok realm, people were already like, oh,

1071
01:03:24.159 --> 01:03:28.599
<v Speaker 1>poor billionaires, you know probably you know, not thinking about this.

1072
01:03:28.760 --> 01:03:31.360
<v Speaker 1>This doesn't seem super safe, and they paid what to

1073
01:03:31.400 --> 01:03:34.800
<v Speaker 1>get on there, and it very quickly turned into an

1074
01:03:34.800 --> 01:03:39.159
<v Speaker 1>eat the rich situation. Yeah, and to be very very

1075
01:03:39.199 --> 01:03:45.119
<v Speaker 1>honest here, some people were just straight up hilarious and

1076
01:03:45.159 --> 01:03:47.679
<v Speaker 1>some of the things that they were putting together were

1077
01:03:47.800 --> 01:03:51.440
<v Speaker 1>incredibly creative. It's how it felt in the moment. I

1078
01:03:51.639 --> 01:03:54.559
<v Speaker 1>did have the forethought and the self awareness to be like,

1079
01:03:54.760 --> 01:03:56.360
<v Speaker 1>what am I enjoying right now?

1080
01:03:56.559 --> 01:03:59.880
<v Speaker 2>Right? Yeah, that I'm right there with you, And I

1081
01:04:00.079 --> 01:04:02.480
<v Speaker 2>think that that's what this entire what we've been leading

1082
01:04:02.559 --> 01:04:05.400
<v Speaker 2>up to the entire episode, is that we can all

1083
01:04:05.400 --> 01:04:09.559
<v Speaker 2>get sucked into it. And now, look, okay, so what

1084
01:04:09.599 --> 01:04:11.159
<v Speaker 2>you and I are talking about is that we got

1085
01:04:11.159 --> 01:04:14.599
<v Speaker 2>sucked into the riffs and there are some brilliantly funny

1086
01:04:14.599 --> 01:04:17.559
<v Speaker 2>people out there. Is there a whiff of cruelty there?

1087
01:04:18.159 --> 01:04:21.679
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I honestly don't know if that's being

1088
01:04:21.760 --> 01:04:26.360
<v Speaker 2>cruel because I think it was all pretty stupid still

1089
01:04:26.400 --> 01:04:28.840
<v Speaker 2>my take on it today, But that comes from my

1090
01:04:29.239 --> 01:04:33.719
<v Speaker 2>upbringing and my own finances. Why would you spend two

1091
01:04:33.800 --> 01:04:37.159
<v Speaker 2>hundred and fifty thousand dollars on this? Like, I just

1092
01:04:37.320 --> 01:04:41.199
<v Speaker 2>like to go, is your life so rarefied that this

1093
01:04:41.280 --> 01:04:42.840
<v Speaker 2>is an experience you're going to do. I feel the

1094
01:04:42.840 --> 01:04:47.320
<v Speaker 2>same way about paying a million dollars to go into space. Yeah, yeah,

1095
01:04:47.360 --> 01:04:49.239
<v Speaker 2>but I get it, Like that's my personal thing, and

1096
01:04:49.280 --> 01:04:51.199
<v Speaker 2>I think that the reason I'm sharing that is because

1097
01:04:51.199 --> 01:04:53.559
<v Speaker 2>I think that's what drove a lot of this is

1098
01:04:53.599 --> 01:04:58.760
<v Speaker 2>like that observation of like, you people are so detached

1099
01:04:58.880 --> 01:05:02.679
<v Speaker 2>from the reality of what the rest of us are experiencing. Now,

1100
01:05:02.760 --> 01:05:04.559
<v Speaker 2>all of that being said, I felt really bad for the.

1101
01:05:04.599 --> 01:05:06.880
<v Speaker 1>Kid everyone, I think everyone.

1102
01:05:07.320 --> 01:05:10.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Like that's that's the one that's the biggest one

1103
01:05:10.239 --> 01:05:12.519
<v Speaker 2>for me, is the kid that was probably roped along

1104
01:05:12.559 --> 01:05:17.000
<v Speaker 2>to be in it. Yeah. I mean, just I'm going

1105
01:05:17.039 --> 01:05:19.239
<v Speaker 2>to take a breath, to take a moment to breathe

1106
01:05:19.239 --> 01:05:20.559
<v Speaker 2>and see if there's anything else I want to add

1107
01:05:20.559 --> 01:05:23.760
<v Speaker 2>about that. Yeah, but I will agree with you there

1108
01:05:23.800 --> 01:05:27.719
<v Speaker 2>was some brilliantly funny stuff, and you know, maybe that's

1109
01:05:28.320 --> 01:05:31.440
<v Speaker 2>something that we should really all aspire to, is like Okay,

1110
01:05:31.440 --> 01:05:34.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm having an emotional reaction. I'm not anxious, I'm not angry,

1111
01:05:34.800 --> 01:05:38.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm kind of laughing. Let me sit in the mindfulness

1112
01:05:38.159 --> 01:05:41.159
<v Speaker 2>of this emotion and think about why I'm feeling this way.

1113
01:05:41.199 --> 01:05:43.719
<v Speaker 2>I think that can be helpful in times like this.

1114
01:05:44.559 --> 01:05:48.159
<v Speaker 2>So La Times writer Jessica Gelt, and she's an opinion writer.

1115
01:05:48.360 --> 01:05:50.440
<v Speaker 2>I want to make sure that I highlight that because

1116
01:05:50.440 --> 01:05:54.159
<v Speaker 2>she gets a little school Marmie finger wagging in this article.

1117
01:05:54.440 --> 01:05:58.079
<v Speaker 2>That's my opinion. But she asserted that the tragedy unleashed

1118
01:05:58.119 --> 01:06:02.880
<v Speaker 2>social media's worst impulses, with creators mocking the victims, ridiculing

1119
01:06:02.880 --> 01:06:05.719
<v Speaker 2>the video game controller used to steer the sub and

1120
01:06:05.800 --> 01:06:08.360
<v Speaker 2>making crude jokes about their final moments. And while I

1121
01:06:08.360 --> 01:06:12.559
<v Speaker 2>appreciate the direction and the tone of her writing regarding

1122
01:06:12.559 --> 01:06:16.159
<v Speaker 2>the reactions, I think that that article allows a few

1123
01:06:16.159 --> 01:06:20.280
<v Speaker 2>things to get lost, including points like the very badly,

1124
01:06:20.440 --> 01:06:24.159
<v Speaker 2>badly constructed vessel that was controlled by a gamer. Set

1125
01:06:24.320 --> 01:06:26.519
<v Speaker 2>like that is a problem. Why are you making fun

1126
01:06:26.559 --> 01:06:28.599
<v Speaker 2>of these things? Well, they're making fun of these things

1127
01:06:28.639 --> 01:06:30.800
<v Speaker 2>because they shouldn't have happened. And you would think that

1128
01:06:30.840 --> 01:06:33.639
<v Speaker 2>somebody that's charging two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a

1129
01:06:33.719 --> 01:06:37.079
<v Speaker 2>pop would be able to do this now. Something that

1130
01:06:37.119 --> 01:06:40.039
<v Speaker 2>she does that I really appreciate is that she highlights

1131
01:06:40.039 --> 01:06:43.880
<v Speaker 2>the comparison about the world was just being glued to

1132
01:06:44.000 --> 01:06:48.159
<v Speaker 2>updates about the submersible about the Titan, while seven hundred

1133
01:06:48.159 --> 01:06:51.079
<v Speaker 2>and fifty migrants drowned off the coast of Greece just

1134
01:06:51.199 --> 01:06:54.079
<v Speaker 2>days before, with only one hundred and four people surviving.

1135
01:06:54.320 --> 01:06:57.119
<v Speaker 2>Yet that story barely made a ripple in global media.

1136
01:06:57.639 --> 01:06:59.960
<v Speaker 2>That to me, is the point that I think needs

1137
01:07:00.199 --> 01:07:04.719
<v Speaker 2>to be brought out. The stark difference in coverage raises

1138
01:07:04.920 --> 01:07:09.239
<v Speaker 2>serious questions about whose lives are deemed worthy of attention,

1139
01:07:10.039 --> 01:07:13.159
<v Speaker 2>but doesn't look to median conglomerates like her own employer

1140
01:07:13.239 --> 01:07:16.400
<v Speaker 2>and the role that they play in deciding what gets attention.

1141
01:07:17.039 --> 01:07:19.719
<v Speaker 2>But I fully disclose that her piece, like I said,

1142
01:07:19.840 --> 01:07:23.920
<v Speaker 2>is commentary. It's a necessary commentary that points out wealth

1143
01:07:23.920 --> 01:07:27.400
<v Speaker 2>inequality has reached new extremes where the world's three thousand

1144
01:07:27.480 --> 01:07:31.000
<v Speaker 2>billionaires hold more wealth than half the planet, and she

1145
01:07:31.039 --> 01:07:32.880
<v Speaker 2>goes on to use the example that it's no wonder

1146
01:07:32.880 --> 01:07:37.159
<v Speaker 2>that some social media users are openly rooting for orcas

1147
01:07:37.320 --> 01:07:40.880
<v Speaker 2>to attack luxury yachts. She also points out that despite

1148
01:07:40.920 --> 01:07:43.920
<v Speaker 2>the class tensions. One Twitter user made a valid point,

1149
01:07:43.960 --> 01:07:47.320
<v Speaker 2>it's possible to care about both the drowned migrants and

1150
01:07:47.360 --> 01:07:50.960
<v Speaker 2>the missing billionaires. Totally agree, it is possible to do that,

1151
01:07:51.440 --> 01:07:54.480
<v Speaker 2>and maybe the challenge for us and me in these

1152
01:07:54.519 --> 01:07:57.920
<v Speaker 2>moments is maintaining that human decency means acknowledging that all

1153
01:07:57.960 --> 01:08:02.440
<v Speaker 2>suffering exists, not just picking and choosing whose lives matter.

1154
01:08:03.000 --> 01:08:06.039
<v Speaker 2>So I'm going to be authentic and saying that I

1155
01:08:06.119 --> 01:08:08.719
<v Speaker 2>had a reaction to this op ed. I thought it

1156
01:08:08.760 --> 01:08:10.880
<v Speaker 2>was well written. I think that she ends up making

1157
01:08:10.880 --> 01:08:14.360
<v Speaker 2>some really good points, but you know, we should not

1158
01:08:15.039 --> 01:08:18.359
<v Speaker 2>have judgment, but you have to understand the context of

1159
01:08:18.399 --> 01:08:23.119
<v Speaker 2>the comparisons. That's what I'm leading. But she also ends

1160
01:08:23.119 --> 01:08:26.079
<v Speaker 2>her piece with a very sobering question. If a camera

1161
01:08:26.359 --> 01:08:29.520
<v Speaker 2>inside the Titan showed the terror in the passenger's eyes,

1162
01:08:30.079 --> 01:08:33.560
<v Speaker 2>would people still be making jokes? Yes, they would. I

1163
01:08:33.600 --> 01:08:36.680
<v Speaker 2>don't think those people making those jokes of that slice

1164
01:08:36.840 --> 01:08:40.479
<v Speaker 2>would be people that we would be necessarily interested in

1165
01:08:40.560 --> 01:08:44.760
<v Speaker 2>their opinion, because then that truly has gone into sadism

1166
01:08:45.319 --> 01:08:49.239
<v Speaker 2>and like a level of cruelty that is beyond Yeah.

1167
01:08:49.399 --> 01:08:58.680
<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, well, And of course, another situation in which we

1168
01:08:58.760 --> 01:09:03.199
<v Speaker 1>see some of the same phenomenon play out. In December

1169
01:09:03.239 --> 01:09:07.000
<v Speaker 1>of twenty twenty four, United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson was

1170
01:09:07.039 --> 01:09:10.319
<v Speaker 1>shot outside of a Manhattan hotel. The CEO was on

1171
01:09:10.399 --> 01:09:14.039
<v Speaker 1>his way to an annual investor's meeting for United Healthcare Group.

1172
01:09:14.760 --> 01:09:18.600
<v Speaker 1>This assassination was caught on surveillance footage, and we got

1173
01:09:18.600 --> 01:09:22.399
<v Speaker 1>to see firsthand not only the calculated nature of the

1174
01:09:22.399 --> 01:09:26.880
<v Speaker 1>plan murder, but also the last moments of terror from

1175
01:09:26.920 --> 01:09:30.800
<v Speaker 1>the ambushed victim. So here we do have that reaction

1176
01:09:31.039 --> 01:09:33.800
<v Speaker 1>from the person who's suffering. We then started to get

1177
01:09:33.800 --> 01:09:37.600
<v Speaker 1>more details of the attack and then of the wanted person.

1178
01:09:38.199 --> 01:09:41.239
<v Speaker 1>We learned that the shell casings of the rounds shot

1179
01:09:41.279 --> 01:09:45.399
<v Speaker 1>at the crime scene had messages seemingly related to the

1180
01:09:45.560 --> 01:09:50.399
<v Speaker 1>mangled healthcare system on them. The words denied, delay, depose

1181
01:09:50.640 --> 01:09:53.760
<v Speaker 1>were written upon them and left at the scene. This

1182
01:09:54.039 --> 01:09:58.760
<v Speaker 1>aspect of a possible motive sparked debates about the healthcare

1183
01:09:58.760 --> 01:10:04.840
<v Speaker 1>industry's practices, with many expressing anger over coverage denials and

1184
01:10:04.920 --> 01:10:08.800
<v Speaker 1>profit motives and the like. Something many people can relate to.

1185
01:10:08.960 --> 01:10:11.840
<v Speaker 1>So that's just with that little bit of information, which

1186
01:10:11.840 --> 01:10:13.760
<v Speaker 1>honestly I mean I say little, but it was a

1187
01:10:13.760 --> 01:10:15.520
<v Speaker 1>big deal. I think you and I even talked about

1188
01:10:15.560 --> 01:10:18.960
<v Speaker 1>it on a shrink wrap when it was unfolding. That

1189
01:10:19.000 --> 01:10:23.199
<v Speaker 1>felt very theatrical, right, So people glommed onto that and

1190
01:10:23.279 --> 01:10:28.079
<v Speaker 1>already started making content about those points. Then in this timeline,

1191
01:10:28.079 --> 01:10:31.439
<v Speaker 1>we got some still camera shots of the suspect checking

1192
01:10:31.439 --> 01:10:34.079
<v Speaker 1>into the New York hostel using a fake ID before

1193
01:10:34.079 --> 01:10:38.800
<v Speaker 1>the incident, so even before the suspect was identified, those

1194
01:10:38.840 --> 01:10:42.159
<v Speaker 1>pictures of the suspects smile that they flashed to the

1195
01:10:42.359 --> 01:10:46.439
<v Speaker 1>hostile worker while checking in. Along Now with the act itself,

1196
01:10:46.800 --> 01:10:51.359
<v Speaker 1>I mean, the media and internet just like loved that.

1197
01:10:51.479 --> 01:10:54.359
<v Speaker 1>We're not even, We're not even. Like a couple days

1198
01:10:54.359 --> 01:10:58.600
<v Speaker 1>into this, right, things felt really different how he was

1199
01:10:58.680 --> 01:11:02.039
<v Speaker 1>being seen, not just as a suspect, but as a symbol.

1200
01:11:02.399 --> 01:11:05.239
<v Speaker 1>I mean, for many people, he started to represent something

1201
01:11:05.680 --> 01:11:10.359
<v Speaker 1>bigger than himself, like this avatar of frustration, a figure

1202
01:11:10.399 --> 01:11:13.439
<v Speaker 1>that really resonated with kind of anyone who's ever struggled

1203
01:11:13.479 --> 01:11:17.039
<v Speaker 1>under the weight of medical debt. And people couldn't help

1204
01:11:17.079 --> 01:11:20.600
<v Speaker 1>themselves by saying that he should go free, or they

1205
01:11:20.600 --> 01:11:22.840
<v Speaker 1>hope he gets away, or nobody should turn him in

1206
01:11:23.600 --> 01:11:26.720
<v Speaker 1>with that brilliant smile. And remember, we didn't even know

1207
01:11:26.720 --> 01:11:28.239
<v Speaker 1>if this was a man or a woman at first,

1208
01:11:28.880 --> 01:11:32.119
<v Speaker 1>so there was all you know. I think the unanswered

1209
01:11:32.199 --> 01:11:35.000
<v Speaker 1>questions left a lot of room for people to sort

1210
01:11:35.000 --> 01:11:38.560
<v Speaker 1>of start making up their own lore behind these emotionally

1211
01:11:38.600 --> 01:11:44.560
<v Speaker 1>motivating factors. But eventually Luigi Maggioni was arrested days later

1212
01:11:44.600 --> 01:11:48.760
<v Speaker 1>in Pennsylvania carrying a three D printed firearm and a

1213
01:11:48.800 --> 01:11:53.079
<v Speaker 1>manifesto criticizing the US healthcare system. We had our guy

1214
01:11:53.159 --> 01:11:57.439
<v Speaker 1>at this point. The extradition to New York was like

1215
01:11:57.680 --> 01:11:59.640
<v Speaker 1>something out of a movie. This is kind of the

1216
01:11:59.680 --> 01:12:02.920
<v Speaker 1>next big pivotal moment after we learned who he was.

1217
01:12:03.399 --> 01:12:06.760
<v Speaker 1>They had politicians wanting to get in on this purp

1218
01:12:06.800 --> 01:12:09.279
<v Speaker 1>walk moment. They landed the helicopter at the end of

1219
01:12:09.279 --> 01:12:12.479
<v Speaker 1>a peer and had him surrounded by what looked like

1220
01:12:12.520 --> 01:12:15.319
<v Speaker 1>the cast of the Swat television show. Is he kind

1221
01:12:15.359 --> 01:12:18.000
<v Speaker 1>of limped along shackled in his chains in this bright

1222
01:12:18.039 --> 01:12:20.800
<v Speaker 1>orange jumpsuit and everyone else is wearing black. I mean,

1223
01:12:20.840 --> 01:12:22.800
<v Speaker 1>if I'm ever arrested, like this is the shot that

1224
01:12:22.840 --> 01:12:25.319
<v Speaker 1>I want. Please, if someone would give me this much

1225
01:12:25.640 --> 01:12:28.000
<v Speaker 1>attention about what I had done. This is what the

1226
01:12:28.000 --> 01:12:32.079
<v Speaker 1>script is written. But it just like when we talk

1227
01:12:32.159 --> 01:12:36.600
<v Speaker 1>about the visual nature of the stuff that we consume.

1228
01:12:36.920 --> 01:12:39.439
<v Speaker 1>They were literally just feeding it to us at this point.

1229
01:12:39.560 --> 01:12:43.079
<v Speaker 1>So Maggioni has pleaded not guilty to terror and murder

1230
01:12:43.199 --> 01:12:47.800
<v Speaker 1>charges in New York and he's currently awaiting trial. But

1231
01:12:48.560 --> 01:12:52.039
<v Speaker 1>it's so interesting because this has little bits and pieces

1232
01:12:52.039 --> 01:12:55.439
<v Speaker 1>that I think feel very similar to other cases, feel

1233
01:12:55.479 --> 01:12:58.319
<v Speaker 1>also different, feels like a hybrid between a couple of

1234
01:12:58.359 --> 01:12:59.319
<v Speaker 1>things going on here.

1235
01:12:59.760 --> 01:13:05.279
<v Speaker 2>So social media reactions to Luigi have been pretty divided,

1236
01:13:05.560 --> 01:13:11.399
<v Speaker 2>and some commenters are condemning him as a violent colonel

1237
01:13:11.880 --> 01:13:15.399
<v Speaker 2>and others have not surprisingly praised him as a folk

1238
01:13:15.439 --> 01:13:19.760
<v Speaker 2>hero because there are thousands of people that are expressing

1239
01:13:19.800 --> 01:13:24.000
<v Speaker 2>frustration at the American healthcare industry, and I say industry specifically,

1240
01:13:24.560 --> 01:13:29.039
<v Speaker 2>and they have seen his actions as a form of

1241
01:13:29.119 --> 01:13:34.319
<v Speaker 2>rebellion against high insurance costs and even access to mental

1242
01:13:34.319 --> 01:13:34.800
<v Speaker 2>health care.

1243
01:13:34.920 --> 01:13:35.039
<v Speaker 1>Right.

1244
01:13:35.520 --> 01:13:38.319
<v Speaker 2>So this has led to a really high amount of

1245
01:13:38.359 --> 01:13:43.439
<v Speaker 2>online discussion and then this explosive mean culture surrounding the case.

1246
01:13:44.119 --> 01:13:46.239
<v Speaker 2>It looks like that to many people this was like

1247
01:13:46.279 --> 01:13:50.640
<v Speaker 2>a Robin Hood moment, although a violent version, with Luigi

1248
01:13:50.680 --> 01:13:53.800
<v Speaker 2>stealing the life of a rich man in the name

1249
01:13:53.920 --> 01:13:55.600
<v Speaker 2>of the little guy. So what are some of the

1250
01:13:55.640 --> 01:14:00.000
<v Speaker 2>factors that play into his infamy. Look, Mangioni is particular

1251
01:14:00.039 --> 01:14:03.119
<v Speaker 2>early camera friendly, and I thought about how I was

1252
01:14:03.159 --> 01:14:05.960
<v Speaker 2>going to say that, because I didn't want to, like,

1253
01:14:06.760 --> 01:14:11.279
<v Speaker 2>that's the only commentary I feel saying. He presents really well,

1254
01:14:12.000 --> 01:14:15.640
<v Speaker 2>and he has a strong social media presence prior to

1255
01:14:16.239 --> 01:14:21.199
<v Speaker 2>the event that features many photos of his shirtless torso

1256
01:14:22.000 --> 01:14:27.119
<v Speaker 2>and just an absolutely captivating and winning smile. So he looked.

1257
01:14:27.399 --> 01:14:30.479
<v Speaker 2>It is the whole. It is the entire package, the

1258
01:14:30.600 --> 01:14:33.359
<v Speaker 2>entire package. And he is regarded by many in his

1259
01:14:33.439 --> 01:14:38.119
<v Speaker 2>life as both a thoughtful and gregarious individual, as well

1260
01:14:38.520 --> 01:14:44.640
<v Speaker 2>as having some very non mainstream beliefs about history and culture.

1261
01:14:45.159 --> 01:14:48.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so this is like, you know, your good looking,

1262
01:14:48.840 --> 01:14:52.359
<v Speaker 1>sort of regular guy that took on a cause and

1263
01:14:52.800 --> 01:14:56.760
<v Speaker 1>decided to commit a very serious crime because of that cause,

1264
01:14:57.399 --> 01:14:59.479
<v Speaker 1>rather than some of what we've seen in the past

1265
01:14:59.479 --> 01:15:02.000
<v Speaker 1>when we've talked talked about, like honestly, just like the

1266
01:15:02.479 --> 01:15:07.840
<v Speaker 1>Hipperstophelia stuff. You know, this over masculine, criminogenic guy who

1267
01:15:07.920 --> 01:15:10.680
<v Speaker 1>murdered a string of his romantic partners. Like there's some

1268
01:15:10.720 --> 01:15:13.920
<v Speaker 1>of the same things going on, but it's also very different.

1269
01:15:14.560 --> 01:15:19.359
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because the cause, I mean, how many people do

1270
01:15:19.439 --> 01:15:21.840
<v Speaker 2>you know? Because I know three people off the top

1271
01:15:21.840 --> 01:15:25.319
<v Speaker 2>of my head that have read from beginning to end

1272
01:15:25.399 --> 01:15:29.439
<v Speaker 2>Ted Kazinski's manifesto and come away saying he has a

1273
01:15:29.479 --> 01:15:32.600
<v Speaker 2>lot of points. He actually has some really good points.

1274
01:15:32.800 --> 01:15:35.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah right, I know several people have commented on that

1275
01:15:35.760 --> 01:15:36.359
<v Speaker 1>for sure.

1276
01:15:36.479 --> 01:15:38.399
<v Speaker 2>And yet I mean I will say that not to

1277
01:15:38.560 --> 01:15:44.319
<v Speaker 2>like completely parse this, but Kazinski also took out people

1278
01:15:44.399 --> 01:15:49.199
<v Speaker 2>that were that were tertiary to his cause, totally right,

1279
01:15:49.600 --> 01:15:52.279
<v Speaker 2>So I would I lean when I look at him,

1280
01:15:52.399 --> 01:15:56.359
<v Speaker 2>I lean him towards the guy who killed all his girlfriends, right,

1281
01:15:56.439 --> 01:15:58.239
<v Speaker 2>I mean, like more than I do. It's like, yeah,

1282
01:15:58.279 --> 01:16:00.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, you have a cause, you have some good points.

1283
01:16:00.760 --> 01:16:02.840
<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of other ways you could have dispelled

1284
01:16:02.840 --> 01:16:05.520
<v Speaker 2>that energy. I mean, I'm not going to give I'm

1285
01:16:05.560 --> 01:16:08.520
<v Speaker 2>not going to assume that Kazinski had the ability to

1286
01:16:08.560 --> 01:16:11.000
<v Speaker 2>function at that level because he didn't. The guy had serious,

1287
01:16:11.000 --> 01:16:12.079
<v Speaker 2>serious mental issues.

1288
01:16:12.159 --> 01:16:14.640
<v Speaker 1>Well, it falls into the category of what we covered

1289
01:16:14.640 --> 01:16:17.760
<v Speaker 1>a lot of someone with a grievance, right that then

1290
01:16:17.880 --> 01:16:20.800
<v Speaker 1>is trying to write that wrong, whether that is a

1291
01:16:20.840 --> 01:16:25.039
<v Speaker 1>school shooting or a mass casualty event of some other

1292
01:16:25.279 --> 01:16:29.439
<v Speaker 1>sort Oklahoma City bombing. Hence the reason MAGGIONI is facing

1293
01:16:29.720 --> 01:16:35.800
<v Speaker 1>terror charges right right, it wobbles into that category more so.

1294
01:16:36.159 --> 01:16:40.680
<v Speaker 1>And then yes, he is, as you say, camera friendly, right, And.

1295
01:16:40.640 --> 01:16:44.760
<v Speaker 2>All of these factors have fueled this free Luigi sentiment

1296
01:16:44.840 --> 01:16:49.840
<v Speaker 2>in social media videos, but not just online. It's billboards

1297
01:16:50.079 --> 01:16:54.079
<v Speaker 2>and the roadside media calling him a hero, droves of

1298
01:16:54.119 --> 01:16:58.000
<v Speaker 2>supporters rallying outside the courthouse during his appearances. And then,

1299
01:16:58.079 --> 01:17:01.560
<v Speaker 2>like you said, there's this hybristophilia aspect of the story

1300
01:17:01.600 --> 01:17:03.239
<v Speaker 2>because of his good looks. We're going to use that

1301
01:17:03.319 --> 01:17:07.800
<v Speaker 2>term loosely because it feels like more objectification of him

1302
01:17:07.920 --> 01:17:10.279
<v Speaker 2>rather than being attracted to him because he's a criminal.

1303
01:17:10.319 --> 01:17:13.439
<v Speaker 2>But there's a small aspect of the Robin hood trope

1304
01:17:13.479 --> 01:17:17.920
<v Speaker 2>that people are finding very attractive. So endless content is

1305
01:17:18.039 --> 01:17:21.800
<v Speaker 2>being made lusting over this guy, from those old photos

1306
01:17:21.840 --> 01:17:25.239
<v Speaker 2>of him shirtless to recent courtroom appearances of him in

1307
01:17:25.319 --> 01:17:28.439
<v Speaker 2>fashionable sweaters and loafers and really good grooming. Now there

1308
01:17:28.479 --> 01:17:32.840
<v Speaker 2>was also something very interesting. I don't necessarily fully buy

1309
01:17:32.880 --> 01:17:36.079
<v Speaker 2>into this, but let me give people a context. So

1310
01:17:37.079 --> 01:17:45.079
<v Speaker 2>defense attorneys absolutely hand arrange for their clients to have

1311
01:17:45.159 --> 01:17:49.680
<v Speaker 2>access to decent clothing and to improve their grooming, especially

1312
01:17:49.760 --> 01:17:52.319
<v Speaker 2>if it's a high end defender. But I did see

1313
01:17:52.319 --> 01:17:54.720
<v Speaker 2>a very interesting piece. So I don't know if his

1314
01:17:54.800 --> 01:17:58.760
<v Speaker 2>defense attorneys were like, get a good barber in here

1315
01:17:59.159 --> 01:18:02.640
<v Speaker 2>that can style hair to make him even more camera friendly. Right,

1316
01:18:03.319 --> 01:18:06.960
<v Speaker 2>But there was an ex con really good writer who

1317
01:18:06.960 --> 01:18:11.319
<v Speaker 2>wrote an entire piece. His opinion piece was that Luigi

1318
01:18:11.399 --> 01:18:14.279
<v Speaker 2>was being seen as a hero in the jail because

1319
01:18:14.319 --> 01:18:18.520
<v Speaker 2>he came out with the top line prison haircut. Like

1320
01:18:18.600 --> 01:18:21.760
<v Speaker 2>he said, they're treating him like a hero because they

1321
01:18:21.760 --> 01:18:24.520
<v Speaker 2>all get it, and that he's probably being treated this way,

1322
01:18:24.520 --> 01:18:26.880
<v Speaker 2>in this way and this way. But that's hearsay, Like

1323
01:18:27.239 --> 01:18:31.279
<v Speaker 2>it's an interesting take, but there actually is no confirmation

1324
01:18:31.640 --> 01:18:35.000
<v Speaker 2>on who did the grooming of him. I know for

1325
01:18:35.119 --> 01:18:38.520
<v Speaker 2>some people they may think, why are you two focusing

1326
01:18:38.600 --> 01:18:42.880
<v Speaker 2>on his grooming? But that actually is an important part.

1327
01:18:42.920 --> 01:18:46.239
<v Speaker 2>It's like the defense is saying, we're going to go

1328
01:18:46.479 --> 01:18:50.560
<v Speaker 2>all in with this. He is like so camera friendly.

1329
01:18:50.840 --> 01:18:53.359
<v Speaker 2>He doesn't have a bad angle no matter how he

1330
01:18:53.439 --> 01:18:57.399
<v Speaker 2>turns his face, even when his face is at rest,

1331
01:18:57.600 --> 01:19:00.560
<v Speaker 2>it's like looking at a statue. Right, We're going to

1332
01:19:00.600 --> 01:19:04.000
<v Speaker 2>play this absolutely because we're going to make him a martyr.

1333
01:19:04.439 --> 01:19:06.479
<v Speaker 2>I think that's totally going on, right.

1334
01:19:06.640 --> 01:19:11.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, and jury consultation and selection and courtroom antics. Is

1335
01:19:12.079 --> 01:19:15.319
<v Speaker 1>all falls under the umbrella of forensic psychology consultation.

1336
01:19:15.880 --> 01:19:17.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah exactly, but yeah.

1337
01:19:17.640 --> 01:19:20.960
<v Speaker 1>I mean from the social media like an especially TikTok,

1338
01:19:21.000 --> 01:19:25.039
<v Speaker 1>like the thirst is real with this one. But on

1339
01:19:25.079 --> 01:19:28.439
<v Speaker 1>top of that, I most immediately saw like Etsy creators

1340
01:19:28.439 --> 01:19:31.960
<v Speaker 1>and other creators making free Luigi Merge. I mean, I

1341
01:19:32.239 --> 01:19:33.760
<v Speaker 1>can watch this stuff, but like, I don't want a

1342
01:19:33.800 --> 01:19:36.479
<v Speaker 1>sweatshirt that has his face on it saying free. It's

1343
01:19:36.560 --> 01:19:40.960
<v Speaker 1>just clearly very poor, poor taste. But it seems so

1344
01:19:41.199 --> 01:19:45.279
<v Speaker 1>mainstream with this case, which is just super interesting. Just

1345
01:19:45.359 --> 01:19:48.239
<v Speaker 1>I think another interesting, really side note of this all

1346
01:19:48.319 --> 01:19:50.319
<v Speaker 1>in terms of social media content that came out in

1347
01:19:50.319 --> 01:19:55.680
<v Speaker 1>people's reactions where they were making videos not even mentioning him.

1348
01:19:56.079 --> 01:20:01.239
<v Speaker 1>But right after this this event happened, or families, parents,

1349
01:20:01.720 --> 01:20:05.880
<v Speaker 1>you know, people were getting online talking about their heartbreaking

1350
01:20:05.920 --> 01:20:09.960
<v Speaker 1>stories of horrendous treatment by the managed care system in

1351
01:20:10.079 --> 01:20:13.960
<v Speaker 1>that company. Yeah, and they didn't even have to say

1352
01:20:14.000 --> 01:20:18.319
<v Speaker 1>boo about Luigi, right, it was just here's our family story.

1353
01:20:18.359 --> 01:20:22.079
<v Speaker 1>And those things really went viral, which good, we need

1354
01:20:22.079 --> 01:20:25.159
<v Speaker 1>to hear those sides of it. And they weren't advocating

1355
01:20:25.159 --> 01:20:26.800
<v Speaker 1>one way or another. It was just like here's a

1356
01:20:26.800 --> 01:20:28.239
<v Speaker 1>real story that happened to us.

1357
01:20:28.640 --> 01:20:31.439
<v Speaker 2>And there was also you and I made a commitment

1358
01:20:31.960 --> 01:20:36.119
<v Speaker 2>to really try and be more victim focused as the

1359
01:20:36.279 --> 01:20:39.319
<v Speaker 2>milieu of true crime content creation has moved in that

1360
01:20:39.399 --> 01:20:43.279
<v Speaker 2>direction and when we can we do that. So, Brian Thompson,

1361
01:20:43.319 --> 01:20:45.319
<v Speaker 2>I do want to focus on that, but I do

1362
01:20:45.439 --> 01:20:47.720
<v Speaker 2>also want to be like a little bit objective because

1363
01:20:47.760 --> 01:20:50.439
<v Speaker 2>there are a lot of people in high positions that

1364
01:20:50.560 --> 01:20:52.800
<v Speaker 2>have been interviewed on camera and they're not shying away

1365
01:20:52.840 --> 01:20:55.399
<v Speaker 2>from it. They're saying, well, no, it shouldn't have happened,

1366
01:20:55.640 --> 01:20:59.439
<v Speaker 2>but I understand why. Yeah, right, So there was this

1367
01:20:59.520 --> 01:21:03.800
<v Speaker 2>sort of there is Look, if you have enough money

1368
01:21:03.800 --> 01:21:05.840
<v Speaker 2>to invest in the stock market and part of your

1369
01:21:05.880 --> 01:21:09.399
<v Speaker 2>portfolio represents that company, then Brian is going to be

1370
01:21:09.439 --> 01:21:14.239
<v Speaker 2>your guy, right because he made money by denying care

1371
01:21:14.399 --> 01:21:19.560
<v Speaker 2>for people. Right. That is a really difficult concept, not

1372
01:21:19.640 --> 01:21:21.880
<v Speaker 2>a difficult concept to think anybody listening to this is

1373
01:21:21.880 --> 01:21:24.199
<v Speaker 2>going to understand that concept. But that's a difficult place

1374
01:21:24.239 --> 01:21:27.439
<v Speaker 2>to sit in to understand that this person with a huge,

1375
01:21:27.479 --> 01:21:30.520
<v Speaker 2>winning smile on all of his CEO pictures and LinkedIn

1376
01:21:30.560 --> 01:21:34.359
<v Speaker 2>and everything, you know, he was human as well. He

1377
01:21:34.439 --> 01:21:36.600
<v Speaker 2>was doing the job he thought that he was supposed

1378
01:21:36.640 --> 01:21:39.920
<v Speaker 2>to do because it's about the shareholders and people like

1379
01:21:39.960 --> 01:21:41.960
<v Speaker 2>that in that position. And I'm not justifying it because

1380
01:21:42.000 --> 01:21:44.520
<v Speaker 2>I don't agree with it, but I do understand what

1381
01:21:44.600 --> 01:21:49.159
<v Speaker 2>the challenge there is. The challenge is to divorce, cut off,

1382
01:21:49.239 --> 01:21:51.279
<v Speaker 2>even to the point of being like the show Severance,

1383
01:21:51.880 --> 01:21:55.319
<v Speaker 2>you are severing that part of your identity and not

1384
01:21:55.600 --> 01:22:00.359
<v Speaker 2>taking responsibility for your role in the world. Or maybe

1385
01:22:00.399 --> 01:22:02.800
<v Speaker 2>you see your role in the world as to make

1386
01:22:02.840 --> 01:22:06.319
<v Speaker 2>money for your company rather than to contribute to the commons,

1387
01:22:06.439 --> 01:22:09.600
<v Speaker 2>contribute to the betterment of society. And then there were

1388
01:22:09.640 --> 01:22:11.760
<v Speaker 2>also things that finally came out as like, he wasn't

1389
01:22:11.760 --> 01:22:15.199
<v Speaker 2>this smiling angel in a nice little sweater set and

1390
01:22:15.279 --> 01:22:18.279
<v Speaker 2>winning smile as well, he wasn't like this completely innocent

1391
01:22:18.319 --> 01:22:20.359
<v Speaker 2>guy in other areas of his life. Did that mean

1392
01:22:20.399 --> 01:22:22.600
<v Speaker 2>that he deserved to be shot down in public? No,

1393
01:22:22.840 --> 01:22:25.840
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't, but it does. Nobody needs more profundity to

1394
01:22:25.880 --> 01:22:26.720
<v Speaker 2>this discussion, I.

1395
01:22:26.640 --> 01:22:30.199
<v Speaker 1>Think, sure, yeah, nobody is all just one thing, of

1396
01:22:30.239 --> 01:22:35.079
<v Speaker 1>course exactly. So that brings us to our entertainment section. Here.

1397
01:22:35.279 --> 01:22:38.840
<v Speaker 1>We love a movie or TV show about rich people,

1398
01:22:39.279 --> 01:22:42.479
<v Speaker 1>think reality TV or I don't know if you know

1399
01:22:42.520 --> 01:22:44.239
<v Speaker 1>this Scott. But do you know that every girl's favorite

1400
01:22:44.279 --> 01:22:46.359
<v Speaker 1>airplane movie is crazy rich Asians?

1401
01:22:46.720 --> 01:22:48.359
<v Speaker 2>I did not know that it's a thing.

1402
01:22:49.079 --> 01:22:52.079
<v Speaker 1>But we also love watching what happens when bad things

1403
01:22:52.079 --> 01:22:54.920
<v Speaker 1>happen to them in really like the most wild ways

1404
01:22:54.920 --> 01:22:56.800
<v Speaker 1>that only entertainment can give us.

1405
01:22:57.119 --> 01:22:59.560
<v Speaker 2>So we've covered a lot of tropes and entertainment before

1406
01:23:00.039 --> 01:23:03.840
<v Speaker 2>this one that have aspects, you know, that are essentially

1407
01:23:03.920 --> 01:23:08.000
<v Speaker 2>vilification of their rich and it's often illustrated metaphorically to

1408
01:23:08.039 --> 01:23:11.359
<v Speaker 2>provide fuel and a pathway for an uprising of the

1409
01:23:11.399 --> 01:23:15.039
<v Speaker 2>social classes. So in popular media, there's usually an added

1410
01:23:15.119 --> 01:23:19.199
<v Speaker 2>element of the rich characters undergoing some terrible event, ranging

1411
01:23:19.239 --> 01:23:24.800
<v Speaker 2>from family turmoil or backstabbing to disasters usually death, and

1412
01:23:24.880 --> 01:23:29.279
<v Speaker 2>all is some sort of fate or punishment for being wealthy.

1413
01:23:29.840 --> 01:23:32.239
<v Speaker 1>So, first up, did you watch Saltburn?

1414
01:23:32.359 --> 01:23:34.800
<v Speaker 2>I didn't watch Saltburn, like I still have to see it,

1415
01:23:34.840 --> 01:23:36.800
<v Speaker 2>So I actually had to read the spoilers and I

1416
01:23:36.880 --> 01:23:37.560
<v Speaker 2>was like, oh.

1417
01:23:37.399 --> 01:23:41.119
<v Speaker 1>Wow, okay, oh man, okay, Well, sorry, we ruined it

1418
01:23:41.199 --> 01:23:44.840
<v Speaker 1>for you if nobody watched it or hadn't heard of it.

1419
01:23:44.880 --> 01:23:49.039
<v Speaker 1>Saltburn came out in twenty twenty three. It's this psychological

1420
01:23:49.079 --> 01:23:52.600
<v Speaker 1>thriller directed by Emerald Fennel. That's such a beautiful name,

1421
01:23:53.159 --> 01:23:55.720
<v Speaker 1>known for her previous work on promising young women.

1422
01:23:56.479 --> 01:23:58.640
<v Speaker 2>And the film start when I did see that one

1423
01:23:58.720 --> 01:23:59.439
<v Speaker 2>is fantastic.

1424
01:23:59.640 --> 01:24:02.119
<v Speaker 1>I didn't not see it, and then I didn't realize

1425
01:24:02.159 --> 01:24:03.600
<v Speaker 1>that they're a dumb at same person. I'm like, I

1426
01:24:03.640 --> 01:24:06.520
<v Speaker 1>have to go back now. The film stars Bary Cogan

1427
01:24:06.840 --> 01:24:11.359
<v Speaker 1>as Oliver Quick, an outcast student at Oxford University who

1428
01:24:11.399 --> 01:24:16.560
<v Speaker 1>becomes infatuated with his wealthy classmate Felix. And I love

1429
01:24:16.600 --> 01:24:19.159
<v Speaker 1>because the opening scenes are all at Oxford University on

1430
01:24:19.199 --> 01:24:21.239
<v Speaker 1>the campus grounds, and I've been there a couple of times,

1431
01:24:21.279 --> 01:24:22.960
<v Speaker 1>like one of my favorite cities in the whole world,

1432
01:24:22.960 --> 01:24:24.720
<v Speaker 1>and I'm just like, oh, it gave me all these warm,

1433
01:24:24.720 --> 01:24:28.079
<v Speaker 1>fuzzy feelings at the beginning, and then it turns really

1434
01:24:28.159 --> 01:24:34.640
<v Speaker 1>really quickly, but essentially, Felix, the wealthy classmate, invites Oliver

1435
01:24:34.760 --> 01:24:37.800
<v Speaker 1>to spend the summer with him at his family's very

1436
01:24:37.880 --> 01:24:43.680
<v Speaker 1>opulent British estate called Saltburn. Of course it has a name, right,

1437
01:24:43.840 --> 01:24:47.640
<v Speaker 1>So Oliver really ends up becoming entwined in the lives

1438
01:24:47.760 --> 01:24:54.680
<v Speaker 1>of the Canton family. The sister, the elderly, very wealthy father,

1439
01:24:54.960 --> 01:24:59.760
<v Speaker 1>and his younger wife in this complex web of obsession

1440
01:25:00.039 --> 01:25:03.319
<v Speaker 1>and deception, and it has all the good stuff that

1441
01:25:03.359 --> 01:25:07.760
<v Speaker 1>we love to see, with the opulent parties and the

1442
01:25:07.880 --> 01:25:11.279
<v Speaker 1>kids just behaving badly and just not knowing where that's

1443
01:25:11.319 --> 01:25:13.840
<v Speaker 1>going to go. It's interesting because the critics have noted

1444
01:25:13.880 --> 01:25:16.920
<v Speaker 1>the film's thematic parallels to what we've talked about a lot,

1445
01:25:16.920 --> 01:25:21.680
<v Speaker 1>the talented mister Ripley with this exploration of desire and

1446
01:25:21.720 --> 01:25:25.920
<v Speaker 1>identity within elite social circles. So like, you know, if

1447
01:25:25.960 --> 01:25:27.439
<v Speaker 1>you're looking for something to watch, you just want to

1448
01:25:27.439 --> 01:25:30.119
<v Speaker 1>be all in, Like visually it's great, and then it's

1449
01:25:30.119 --> 01:25:31.720
<v Speaker 1>also very twisted and you're like, oh my god, what

1450
01:25:31.760 --> 01:25:34.119
<v Speaker 1>am I watching right now? So basically, I mean the

1451
01:25:34.279 --> 01:25:37.039
<v Speaker 1>character Oliver eats this family from the inside out. I

1452
01:25:37.039 --> 01:25:40.479
<v Speaker 1>mean he really carefully crafts his way into their lives

1453
01:25:40.560 --> 01:25:45.239
<v Speaker 1>over this summer break from Oxford and dismantles them, possibly

1454
01:25:45.520 --> 01:25:49.680
<v Speaker 1>you know, killing some of them, or suckers them into

1455
01:25:50.319 --> 01:25:54.880
<v Speaker 1>eventually gaining their wealth playing the very long game years

1456
01:25:54.920 --> 01:25:58.479
<v Speaker 1>down the road. I really love Saltburne. I didn't know

1457
01:25:58.560 --> 01:26:00.840
<v Speaker 1>what to expect going into it, and you know, some

1458
01:26:00.880 --> 01:26:04.159
<v Speaker 1>of it was like shocking, and I just I highly,

1459
01:26:04.239 --> 01:26:09.800
<v Speaker 1>highly recommend it with just this very stylish examination of obsession,

1460
01:26:10.359 --> 01:26:14.279
<v Speaker 1>class disparity, sort of the lengths individuals will go to

1461
01:26:14.279 --> 01:26:18.560
<v Speaker 1>to attain acceptance and wealth. So I think it's a

1462
01:26:18.640 --> 01:26:22.640
<v Speaker 1>great contemporary psychological thriller that fits perfectly with what we're

1463
01:26:22.640 --> 01:26:23.399
<v Speaker 1>talking about today.

1464
01:26:23.800 --> 01:26:29.239
<v Speaker 2>So did you root for him for Barry Ian's I.

1465
01:26:29.239 --> 01:26:32.479
<v Speaker 1>Did not, because you the way that it's shot and

1466
01:26:32.560 --> 01:26:38.279
<v Speaker 1>the subtlety to his psychopathy is you know, something that

1467
01:26:38.319 --> 01:26:40.640
<v Speaker 1>makes you like your skin crawl towards.

1468
01:26:40.399 --> 01:26:43.119
<v Speaker 2>The end, but even like, but you do judge the

1469
01:26:43.239 --> 01:26:45.960
<v Speaker 2>rich like they do jug with assholes.

1470
01:26:46.439 --> 01:26:48.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you judge the rich and their assholes. But I

1471
01:26:48.560 --> 01:26:51.239
<v Speaker 1>think there's maybe it's also how it was sort of

1472
01:26:51.319 --> 01:26:54.439
<v Speaker 1>crafted to be like what we're talking about, like they

1473
01:26:54.439 --> 01:26:57.159
<v Speaker 1>don't know any better. These are kids that have grown

1474
01:26:57.239 --> 01:27:00.439
<v Speaker 1>up in this and he's finding their weaknesses right, like

1475
01:27:00.560 --> 01:27:03.960
<v Speaker 1>very calculated. So I'd be super interested to hear your tape.

1476
01:27:04.000 --> 01:27:06.000
<v Speaker 2>I'll have to watch it. But here's one that I

1477
01:27:06.039 --> 01:27:09.479
<v Speaker 2>did watch and love the menu. Oh yes, very dark

1478
01:27:09.880 --> 01:27:14.640
<v Speaker 2>comedy thriller directed by Mark Milid, starring Anna Taylor Joy

1479
01:27:14.760 --> 01:27:17.800
<v Speaker 2>I love her, Ray Fines love him, Nicholas Holt. I

1480
01:27:17.800 --> 01:27:20.640
<v Speaker 2>mean just the cast is so great. Also, all of

1481
01:27:20.640 --> 01:27:22.640
<v Speaker 2>the people that have I mean, I don't think there

1482
01:27:22.640 --> 01:27:25.640
<v Speaker 2>are really any minor roles, but like it is a

1483
01:27:25.760 --> 01:27:30.039
<v Speaker 2>casting cavalcade. It's so fantastic, and it seems like one

1484
01:27:30.079 --> 01:27:32.439
<v Speaker 2>of those movies where people were like, I will be

1485
01:27:32.439 --> 01:27:34.600
<v Speaker 2>in this. I don't care if I don't have lines.

1486
01:27:34.760 --> 01:27:37.720
<v Speaker 2>I be in this, right. So the film follows this

1487
01:27:37.760 --> 01:27:40.800
<v Speaker 2>young couple of Margot who is Anya Taylor Joy and

1488
01:27:41.000 --> 01:27:44.800
<v Speaker 2>Nicholas Holt as Tyler, and they go to an exclusive

1489
01:27:45.159 --> 01:27:49.319
<v Speaker 2>island restaurant. By the way, I would never fucking do that. No,

1490
01:27:51.000 --> 01:27:52.159
<v Speaker 2>creepy as hell to me.

1491
01:27:52.239 --> 01:27:54.680
<v Speaker 1>I would never ever do take a boat where there's

1492
01:27:54.880 --> 01:27:57.640
<v Speaker 1>just a restaurant and like the staff lives there, Like.

1493
01:27:57.560 --> 01:27:59.720
<v Speaker 2>What kind of I'm not going to have this? And

1494
01:28:00.359 --> 01:28:05.039
<v Speaker 2>the island restaurant is run by renowned enigmatic chef Julian

1495
01:28:05.159 --> 01:28:09.560
<v Speaker 2>Slowick played by Rafe Fines, And so it's very I mean,

1496
01:28:10.039 --> 01:28:14.039
<v Speaker 2>it's very stylistic. You hate some of the characters immediately

1497
01:28:14.079 --> 01:28:18.399
<v Speaker 2>there's such dude bro assholes, but as the evening unfolds,

1498
01:28:18.439 --> 01:28:22.600
<v Speaker 2>the chef presents this elaborate multi course meal with each

1499
01:28:22.680 --> 01:28:27.720
<v Speaker 2>of the dishes just like meticulously crafted with like layers

1500
01:28:27.760 --> 01:28:30.840
<v Speaker 2>of deeper meaning, which is really funny because look, I've

1501
01:28:30.880 --> 01:28:33.239
<v Speaker 2>been lucky enough to have some very expensive meals in

1502
01:28:33.279 --> 01:28:35.399
<v Speaker 2>my life. It's not a regular basis, but you know,

1503
01:28:35.439 --> 01:28:38.840
<v Speaker 2>I've had some like two big ones in my life. Yeah,

1504
01:28:38.920 --> 01:28:40.760
<v Speaker 2>and it is a big deal to the chef, like

1505
01:28:40.800 --> 01:28:44.399
<v Speaker 2>it is there. It is the chef mentality, is the

1506
01:28:44.479 --> 01:28:49.079
<v Speaker 2>creativity and like making the eating experience art, which is

1507
01:28:49.119 --> 01:28:51.159
<v Speaker 2>just not something that I grew up with. That's like

1508
01:28:51.439 --> 01:28:54.039
<v Speaker 2>very alien to me. Right, So, but I'm trying. You know,

1509
01:28:54.359 --> 01:28:56.479
<v Speaker 2>my experiences were really good and it was like, Okay,

1510
01:28:56.560 --> 01:29:00.119
<v Speaker 2>I get this, but it becomes very very clear, very

1511
01:29:00.199 --> 01:29:04.920
<v Speaker 2>quickly that this particular menu and this particular meal, the

1512
01:29:04.960 --> 01:29:07.920
<v Speaker 2>dinner is not just about the food. It is very

1513
01:29:08.399 --> 01:29:13.600
<v Speaker 2>meticulously orchestrated psychological and physical ordeal for all of the guests.

1514
01:29:13.640 --> 01:29:17.279
<v Speaker 2>Because all the guests are elite food critics or wealthy patrons,

1515
01:29:18.039 --> 01:29:23.079
<v Speaker 2>celebrities and their entourage. Yeah, and they quickly realize that

1516
01:29:23.079 --> 01:29:27.079
<v Speaker 2>they're trapped in a carefully designed experiences that is just

1517
01:29:27.159 --> 01:29:30.199
<v Speaker 2>getting way out of hand. And to see all of

1518
01:29:30.239 --> 01:29:32.119
<v Speaker 2>them fall apart, I don't even want to get If

1519
01:29:32.159 --> 01:29:34.199
<v Speaker 2>you haven't seen it, guys, you really really have to

1520
01:29:34.199 --> 01:29:37.439
<v Speaker 2>see it because the look of horror and anger on

1521
01:29:37.520 --> 01:29:41.840
<v Speaker 2>people when they like the confusion, like the confusion like

1522
01:29:43.000 --> 01:29:45.640
<v Speaker 2>this one is even in the I'm not getting anything way,

1523
01:29:45.680 --> 01:29:47.520
<v Speaker 2>because this is in the previews. Is like when a

1524
01:29:47.680 --> 01:29:52.960
<v Speaker 2>table gets their order of tortillas and the tortillas have

1525
01:29:53.239 --> 01:29:56.079
<v Speaker 2>printed on them in edible ink or it's burned into it,

1526
01:29:56.600 --> 01:30:02.600
<v Speaker 2>like the financial spreadsheets for all of their financial crimes. Right,

1527
01:30:02.640 --> 01:30:04.960
<v Speaker 2>they're like, right, what the fuck is this? You know,

1528
01:30:05.039 --> 01:30:07.520
<v Speaker 2>like just that sort of trying to put it together.

1529
01:30:07.680 --> 01:30:10.279
<v Speaker 2>And I mean again, it's also the acting is really great.

1530
01:30:10.359 --> 01:30:13.560
<v Speaker 2>But Anya Taylor Joy plays Margo. She wasn't supposed to

1531
01:30:13.560 --> 01:30:16.760
<v Speaker 2>be part of the guest list. She came by accident

1532
01:30:16.800 --> 01:30:18.640
<v Speaker 2>because the person that was in her place wasn't able

1533
01:30:18.680 --> 01:30:22.439
<v Speaker 2>to go. So her being an outsider disrupts the whole

1534
01:30:22.479 --> 01:30:27.439
<v Speaker 2>planned evening and she is a very tough individual and

1535
01:30:27.479 --> 01:30:31.319
<v Speaker 2>she confronts the chef and it becomes this battle of wills.

1536
01:30:31.359 --> 01:30:35.159
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's so over the top crazy and yet

1537
01:30:35.239 --> 01:30:38.560
<v Speaker 2>you go, well, this could happen probably, but like I mean,

1538
01:30:38.600 --> 01:30:43.039
<v Speaker 2>it's not science fiction y. It's just like like knives

1539
01:30:43.039 --> 01:30:46.239
<v Speaker 2>out almost. It's just very very well constructed. So it

1540
01:30:46.319 --> 01:30:51.479
<v Speaker 2>is just really a great example of privilege, entitlement and

1541
01:30:51.640 --> 01:30:55.960
<v Speaker 2>the fine dining industry, which is I enjoy good food,

1542
01:30:56.000 --> 01:30:58.239
<v Speaker 2>but I don't want to. I don't want to breathe

1543
01:30:58.359 --> 01:31:02.359
<v Speaker 2>salmon foam while I'm you know, roll all the time,

1544
01:31:02.520 --> 01:31:05.640
<v Speaker 2>desiccated green being between my fingers, you know, just the

1545
01:31:05.680 --> 01:31:09.960
<v Speaker 2>weird things. Anyway, some very highly recommend it, both of them.

1546
01:31:10.119 --> 01:31:15.399
<v Speaker 1>Both of these are so delicious to watch. That feels appropriate.

1547
01:31:15.840 --> 01:31:18.960
<v Speaker 1>Of course, we've already mentioned White Lotus, and this is

1548
01:31:19.640 --> 01:31:24.359
<v Speaker 1>definitely my obsession weirdly, like both my parents and I

1549
01:31:24.439 --> 01:31:26.520
<v Speaker 1>like watch this and keep up on it and talk

1550
01:31:26.560 --> 01:31:28.880
<v Speaker 1>about it, and it's kind of funny because it's our thing.

1551
01:31:29.079 --> 01:31:31.239
<v Speaker 1>But if you guys haven't watched White Lotus, I'm sure

1552
01:31:31.279 --> 01:31:33.359
<v Speaker 1>you're hearing all about it right now. And talk about

1553
01:31:33.359 --> 01:31:36.520
<v Speaker 1>social media. I mean, Parker Posey is having her moment

1554
01:31:36.600 --> 01:31:37.960
<v Speaker 1>right now for sure.

1555
01:31:38.079 --> 01:31:40.079
<v Speaker 2>By the way, as she should. I mean I have

1556
01:31:41.159 --> 01:31:44.000
<v Speaker 2>I'll probably skip season two just to come watch season

1557
01:31:44.039 --> 01:31:48.159
<v Speaker 2>three for her, because this is someone that, like, she

1558
01:31:48.439 --> 01:31:52.359
<v Speaker 2>is wildly talented and has been from the very beginning,

1559
01:31:52.399 --> 01:31:55.319
<v Speaker 2>and it's like she's the Queen of the Indies. But like,

1560
01:31:55.439 --> 01:31:59.159
<v Speaker 2>you just go, how are you not a major stars?

1561
01:31:59.239 --> 01:31:59.880
<v Speaker 2>So brilliant.

1562
01:32:00.239 --> 01:32:03.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, best in Show is like has always been

1563
01:32:03.000 --> 01:32:07.680
<v Speaker 1>my favorite. Also, Jennifer, I know, and you can't scale.

1564
01:32:08.079 --> 01:32:10.479
<v Speaker 1>You can't skip season two because it actually does play

1565
01:32:10.520 --> 01:32:14.399
<v Speaker 1>into season three. It's not totally separate, so I would say,

1566
01:32:14.399 --> 01:32:17.119
<v Speaker 1>don't do that, but dude, it's an easy binge, do it.

1567
01:32:17.800 --> 01:32:21.199
<v Speaker 1>So White Lotus it's a dark comedy drama anthology series,

1568
01:32:21.199 --> 01:32:23.199
<v Speaker 1>but there is some overlap there, and it's created by

1569
01:32:23.239 --> 01:32:26.359
<v Speaker 1>Mike White, who we've mentioned, and really he loves to

1570
01:32:26.359 --> 01:32:31.439
<v Speaker 1>play on the satire of privileged wealth social dynamics through

1571
01:32:31.600 --> 01:32:36.640
<v Speaker 1>the lens of luxury vacations, which I'm here for as well,

1572
01:32:36.720 --> 01:32:39.199
<v Speaker 1>because all these shows make you want to do is

1573
01:32:39.279 --> 01:32:44.079
<v Speaker 1>book your next vacation and have such travel envy. But

1574
01:32:44.239 --> 01:32:46.720
<v Speaker 1>in it, each season follows a different group of wealthy

1575
01:32:46.760 --> 01:32:50.960
<v Speaker 1>guests at the White Lotus resort in a different location.

1576
01:32:51.359 --> 01:32:56.520
<v Speaker 1>So season one was Maui, season two was Taromina, Sicily,

1577
01:32:56.640 --> 01:33:00.800
<v Speaker 1>and then season three is in Thailand. And so all

1578
01:33:00.840 --> 01:33:07.039
<v Speaker 1>of these like personal flaws, entitlement, hidden tentions all gradually

1579
01:33:07.159 --> 01:33:10.479
<v Speaker 1>lead to some sort of there's definitely like betrayals and

1580
01:33:10.520 --> 01:33:14.359
<v Speaker 1>scandals happening, but there's some sort of like wacky death

1581
01:33:14.439 --> 01:33:16.800
<v Speaker 1>that happens at the end of all of these. So

1582
01:33:17.560 --> 01:33:22.479
<v Speaker 1>all seasons depict how the rich are incredibly insulated from

1583
01:33:22.760 --> 01:33:26.439
<v Speaker 1>true consequences of life, but also of their own doing right,

1584
01:33:26.439 --> 01:33:29.319
<v Speaker 1>their own flaws, the arrogance, the greed, the moral decay,

1585
01:33:30.079 --> 01:33:33.239
<v Speaker 1>and a lot of this ends up being super self inflicted.

1586
01:33:33.560 --> 01:33:37.720
<v Speaker 1>But White Lotus is great again. I know, probably everybody's

1587
01:33:37.880 --> 01:33:40.079
<v Speaker 1>watching it right now. Anyway, I saw.

1588
01:33:39.920 --> 01:33:44.239
<v Speaker 2>This really interesting discussion about somebody was saying, well, I'm

1589
01:33:44.239 --> 01:33:46.159
<v Speaker 2>definitely not going to go to White Lotus because somebody

1590
01:33:46.199 --> 01:33:49.039
<v Speaker 2>dies all the time, and I and people I before

1591
01:33:49.079 --> 01:33:51.279
<v Speaker 2>I could even make a comment like there are all

1592
01:33:51.319 --> 01:33:53.600
<v Speaker 2>these other people going. Do you know how many people

1593
01:33:53.640 --> 01:33:56.960
<v Speaker 2>die on cruises every year? Do you know people die

1594
01:33:57.000 --> 01:34:01.640
<v Speaker 2>at resorts every like a lot, like way more than

1595
01:34:01.680 --> 01:34:04.880
<v Speaker 2>you would think. Like it makes me think, like, oh,

1596
01:34:04.920 --> 01:34:07.239
<v Speaker 2>what's the one that like the most recent ones? Not there,

1597
01:34:07.439 --> 01:34:10.279
<v Speaker 2>not the reason, but it happened. It's happened like three different

1598
01:34:10.319 --> 01:34:14.319
<v Speaker 2>times at one resort where the bartender is making drinks

1599
01:34:14.319 --> 01:34:17.600
<v Speaker 2>with like ever clear or something, or they're like our moonshines,

1600
01:34:17.600 --> 01:34:19.279
<v Speaker 2>like we don't have any tequila, so we'll just make

1601
01:34:19.359 --> 01:34:23.119
<v Speaker 2>up really sweet margaritas. With whatever I've got in the

1602
01:34:23.159 --> 01:34:27.199
<v Speaker 2>back and they're all dead, like, you know, just family die.

1603
01:34:27.199 --> 01:34:29.800
<v Speaker 2>It's terrible one thing, and then I'll get off the

1604
01:34:29.800 --> 01:34:32.319
<v Speaker 2>Parker posey pony. This is how great of an actor

1605
01:34:32.439 --> 01:34:36.079
<v Speaker 2>she is. There's a remake of Lost in Space that

1606
01:34:36.439 --> 01:34:41.399
<v Speaker 2>is on Netflix and has three seasons. Unfortunately, it's not consistent.

1607
01:34:41.439 --> 01:34:45.720
<v Speaker 2>It's a great idea. She plays the doctor that was

1608
01:34:45.760 --> 01:34:48.479
<v Speaker 2>played by a male. Traditionally that role was male.

1609
01:34:48.680 --> 01:34:49.680
<v Speaker 1>Oh okay, and she.

1610
01:34:49.840 --> 01:34:54.359
<v Speaker 2>Plays this She's impersonating a doctor and she is a

1611
01:34:54.520 --> 01:35:01.039
<v Speaker 2>complete psychopath. She is incredibly manipulative, she is unbelo believably brilliant,

1612
01:35:01.760 --> 01:35:05.079
<v Speaker 2>and she is like she's the villain in the fault

1613
01:35:05.119 --> 01:35:07.800
<v Speaker 2>all three seasons. So if anybody like it's pretty good

1614
01:35:07.800 --> 01:35:10.039
<v Speaker 2>science fiction, it's not consistent, but I would I would

1615
01:35:10.119 --> 01:35:12.840
<v Speaker 2>highly recommend watching it just for her performance. She's that great.

1616
01:35:13.520 --> 01:35:15.640
<v Speaker 2>So another one that came out that I think is

1617
01:35:15.760 --> 01:35:19.439
<v Speaker 2>really fascinating, which won the Oscar I was not. I

1618
01:35:19.479 --> 01:35:21.840
<v Speaker 2>don't know if I think that this movie deserves like

1619
01:35:21.960 --> 01:35:25.439
<v Speaker 2>Best Picture. Ye, my husband loved it, and my husband

1620
01:35:25.520 --> 01:35:30.359
<v Speaker 2>is very critical of movies. But Anora and I highly

1621
01:35:30.439 --> 01:35:35.239
<v Speaker 2>recommend watching it because it shows the story of the

1622
01:35:35.279 --> 01:35:40.000
<v Speaker 2>youngest child of Russian oligarchs and how now and this

1623
01:35:40.119 --> 01:35:42.920
<v Speaker 2>actor playing him is I mean, the kid's going to

1624
01:35:42.920 --> 01:35:46.880
<v Speaker 2>be a star, absolute star. But you see this arc

1625
01:35:47.000 --> 01:35:50.680
<v Speaker 2>of people the haves versus the have nots, especially when

1626
01:35:50.680 --> 01:35:54.720
<v Speaker 2>it's in sort of like the criminal world, Like, you know,

1627
01:35:54.960 --> 01:35:57.800
<v Speaker 2>here's somebody that probably his money has come from arms

1628
01:35:57.800 --> 01:36:00.520
<v Speaker 2>dealers or whatever like that, and he has this that

1629
01:36:00.800 --> 01:36:04.920
<v Speaker 2>just is running wild like they can't contain him. So

1630
01:36:05.359 --> 01:36:08.880
<v Speaker 2>kind of circling back to Titan and the Submersible, there

1631
01:36:08.920 --> 01:36:12.119
<v Speaker 2>will be a documentary on Netflix this year. It's going

1632
01:36:12.159 --> 01:36:15.640
<v Speaker 2>to focus on this incident and it's going to examine

1633
01:36:15.680 --> 01:36:19.079
<v Speaker 2>Stockton Rush and his quest to become the next billionaire

1634
01:36:19.159 --> 01:36:24.479
<v Speaker 2>innovator and you know what led to the tragic endeavor.

1635
01:36:24.800 --> 01:36:27.880
<v Speaker 2>And I'm hoping that that will make people who watch

1636
01:36:27.920 --> 01:36:31.119
<v Speaker 2>it kind of really reconsider, like what's the price of ambition.

1637
01:36:31.159 --> 01:36:33.079
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that lesson will be heard by anybody

1638
01:36:33.119 --> 01:36:34.800
<v Speaker 2>that particularly needs to hear it, but.

1639
01:36:34.880 --> 01:36:37.520
<v Speaker 1>Well, it'll be interesting if they touch on some of

1640
01:36:37.520 --> 01:36:40.840
<v Speaker 1>the stuff we touched on, right, like the reactions, the

1641
01:36:40.920 --> 01:36:43.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, lack of empathy and how that all played out.

1642
01:36:43.960 --> 01:36:47.000
<v Speaker 1>I would imagine they kind of have to but we'll

1643
01:36:47.000 --> 01:36:49.319
<v Speaker 1>see maybe not. Maybe it's just more of a piece

1644
01:36:49.319 --> 01:36:52.079
<v Speaker 1>on him and what led to all this. But it

1645
01:36:52.159 --> 01:36:55.039
<v Speaker 1>comes out this year on Netflix and it will be

1646
01:36:55.119 --> 01:36:55.960
<v Speaker 1>titled Titan.

1647
01:36:56.319 --> 01:36:58.840
<v Speaker 2>Well long episode. We told ourselves we were going to

1648
01:36:58.880 --> 01:37:00.439
<v Speaker 2>do this. We were like, oh, let's get but short

1649
01:37:00.800 --> 01:37:02.960
<v Speaker 2>like here, we had so much to talk about. But

1650
01:37:03.000 --> 01:37:05.399
<v Speaker 2>it's I think it's because we are not doing this

1651
01:37:05.439 --> 01:37:07.479
<v Speaker 2>on a regular basis, so we can really expand.

1652
01:37:07.600 --> 01:37:10.520
<v Speaker 1>This is great, very true, very true. Or it was

1653
01:37:10.560 --> 01:37:12.199
<v Speaker 1>the economics history lesson.

1654
01:37:12.800 --> 01:37:15.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, thanks Bobs, we appreciate it. Please remember it. Tell

1655
01:37:16.000 --> 01:37:16.600
<v Speaker 2>your friends.

1656
01:37:17.760 --> 01:37:20.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, we need to learn from our history a

1657
01:37:20.319 --> 01:37:24.319
<v Speaker 1>little bit more, right, Yes, okay, So we will be

1658
01:37:24.399 --> 01:37:28.000
<v Speaker 1>bringing you a behind the Couch episode next. Please if

1659
01:37:28.000 --> 01:37:31.119
<v Speaker 1>you can join us at Bike Shed on Friday, April eleventh,

1660
01:37:31.359 --> 01:37:36.199
<v Speaker 1>six PMSH. We'll hang out for a few hours and

1661
01:37:36.840 --> 01:37:38.920
<v Speaker 1>just you know, they have great food if you want

1662
01:37:38.920 --> 01:37:43.640
<v Speaker 1>to grab appetizer, dinner, drink, dessert. Yeah, it's all in

1663
01:37:43.640 --> 01:37:46.560
<v Speaker 1>one place, so come say hello. It's been a while

1664
01:37:46.600 --> 01:37:51.439
<v Speaker 1>since we've seen people in person. Other than that, anything else,

1665
01:37:51.640 --> 01:37:52.800
<v Speaker 1>any last thoughts.

1666
01:37:53.119 --> 01:37:55.079
<v Speaker 2>No, we've got a couple more live events that will

1667
01:37:55.119 --> 01:37:57.920
<v Speaker 2>be happening. You know, throughout the spring and the summer,

1668
01:37:57.960 --> 01:38:01.640
<v Speaker 2>and we'll continue to announce those. And again you're going

1669
01:38:01.680 --> 01:38:03.720
<v Speaker 2>to hear this in our outro. But thank you to

1670
01:38:03.760 --> 01:38:06.560
<v Speaker 2>all of our Patreon members. You're awesome. We just really

1671
01:38:06.560 --> 01:38:10.039
<v Speaker 2>appreciate it. Yes, I like still can't believe I'll get

1672
01:38:10.079 --> 01:38:12.880
<v Speaker 2>another email every other day on a new Patreon. I'm like, God,

1673
01:38:12.920 --> 01:38:14.920
<v Speaker 2>thank you, folks. We really appreciate that.

1674
01:38:15.399 --> 01:38:18.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we've been doing some also some guest interviews lately,

1675
01:38:18.359 --> 01:38:20.880
<v Speaker 1>so just you know, pay attention to our social media.

1676
01:38:20.920 --> 01:38:22.600
<v Speaker 1>We'll always let you know where to catch us talking

1677
01:38:22.600 --> 01:38:26.159
<v Speaker 1>about other things. And we have a page on our

1678
01:38:26.319 --> 01:38:30.960
<v Speaker 1>website titled Spotlights that lists everything in a link to

1679
01:38:31.000 --> 01:38:34.239
<v Speaker 1>everything that we do as far as being on other

1680
01:38:34.279 --> 01:38:36.479
<v Speaker 1>people's podcasts and shows and stuff like that, so you

1681
01:38:36.520 --> 01:38:38.880
<v Speaker 1>can always find it there. All right, everyone, we will

1682
01:38:38.880 --> 01:38:46.560
<v Speaker 1>see you next time on La Not So Confidential. Bye guys, bye, folks,

1683
01:39:00.000 --> 01:39:02.600
<v Speaker 1>call sincerely, thank you for spending some time with us today.

1684
01:39:02.760 --> 01:39:05.520
<v Speaker 1>La Not So Confidential is part of the Cralspace media network.

1685
01:39:05.680 --> 01:39:08.920
<v Speaker 1>Each episode is hosted, produced, and written by doctor Scott

1686
01:39:08.920 --> 01:39:12.039
<v Speaker 1>and doctor Shiloh. Our post production, editing and sweetening magic

1687
01:39:12.159 --> 01:39:15.079
<v Speaker 1>is handled by the multi talented Jason Usri of ear

1688
01:39:15.159 --> 01:39:16.119
<v Speaker 1>Cult Productions.

1689
01:39:16.319 --> 01:39:19.800
<v Speaker 2>Our theme music entitled Cool Vibes Film Noir, is composed

1690
01:39:19.800 --> 01:39:23.239
<v Speaker 2>and performed by the talented Kevin McLoud. He graciously allows

1691
01:39:23.319 --> 01:39:26.520
<v Speaker 2>us to use his music via a Creative Commons attribution license.

1692
01:39:26.600 --> 01:39:29.399
<v Speaker 2>Please check out all of Kevin's amazing work on YouTube.

1693
01:39:29.439 --> 01:39:31.960
<v Speaker 1>All of the resources for each episode can be found

1694
01:39:32.039 --> 01:39:36.279
<v Speaker 1>on our website at La Dash not dash soo dash

1695
01:39:36.319 --> 01:39:40.039
<v Speaker 1>confidential dot com. You can find us on Instagram at

1696
01:39:40.199 --> 01:39:43.439
<v Speaker 1>La Nosa Podcast, on x at La No sopod, and

1697
01:39:43.640 --> 01:39:46.960
<v Speaker 1>on Facebook at La Not So Confidential. Media inquiries and

1698
01:39:46.960 --> 01:39:51.000
<v Speaker 1>bookings are scheduled at Alienist Entertainment at gmail dot com.

1699
01:39:51.039 --> 01:39:54.479
<v Speaker 2>Once a month, we go live on YouTube on Saturday afternoon,

1700
01:39:54.640 --> 01:39:57.159
<v Speaker 2>so pay attention to our social media announcements to join

1701
01:39:57.239 --> 01:40:00.880
<v Speaker 2>our interactive broadcast entitled Behind the Clout, where we interview

1702
01:40:00.920 --> 01:40:03.399
<v Speaker 2>guests on a number of psych criminal, justice and true

1703
01:40:03.399 --> 01:40:04.119
<v Speaker 2>crime topics.

1704
01:40:04.159 --> 01:40:06.760
<v Speaker 1>And lastly, we'd be honored if you joined our Patreon

1705
01:40:06.920 --> 01:40:11.000
<v Speaker 1>at Patreon dot com slash La not So Podcast. With

1706
01:40:11.039 --> 01:40:15.199
<v Speaker 1>a subscription, you get an ad free listening experience, additional content,

1707
01:40:15.359 --> 01:40:17.920
<v Speaker 1>host interaction, and you'll be the first to know about

1708
01:40:17.960 --> 01:40:21.520
<v Speaker 1>upcoming live events. Social gatherings and super cool swag.

1709
01:40:21.760 --> 01:40:24.159
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for listening and join us next time on La

1710
01:40:24.720 --> 01:40:26.560
<v Speaker 2>Not So Confidential.