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Speaker 1: Aaron, what's happening? Man?

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Speaker 2: We don't seem like the kind of guys who really

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like to read a lot, so this is this is

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getting weird.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't read so good, them words as hard.

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Speaker 2: So you had the idea for doing this one, I

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will read it. But so tell me why did you

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want to do chapter three of James Burnham's The Managerial Revolution?

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Speaker 1: So I knew that we wouldn't have enough time or

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willpower to do the entire thing. I I would, I

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would make that my life's work and my my magnum opus.

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But chapter three really stuck with me, mostly because of

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my my background and my my near group and in group,

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you know, in the in the libertarian sphere, and uh,

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I I never really considered the fact that you know,

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I I've always had that binary brain of it's it's

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either capitalism or socialism. And you know, I've I've kind

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of adopted the uh, the way I thought that socialism

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is encroaching, and you know, it's not, it's not anywhere

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near what like somebody like Lenin would would view as socialism.

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But yeah, I mean, and particularly for this book, when

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when when we were reading uh uh State and Revolution,

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m hm. The sheer amount of things that Lenin called

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like just called it. Uh. I mean throughout that reading,

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it was like he was spot on with a lot

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of things. And uh, throughout my incomplete reading of this,

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I'm still in the middle of it. Uh. Every page

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has something that I can immediately point to, a tangible

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aspect of something I deal with every day and be like, yeah,

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Burnham called it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I read it this afternoon because it's only it's

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only a night nine pages, seven, eight or nine pages,

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and yeah, I was stopping constantly because I was just like,

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oh man, I have to ponder that. I really have

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to ponder that. So all right, well, I mean we

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usually do like twenty five or thirty pages and it

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goes so stop anytime I'll start reading.

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Speaker 1: It, okay, absolutely, all right.

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Speaker 2: Chapter three, The Theory of the Permanence of Capitalism by

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former Trotskyite James Burnham. During the past century, dozens, perhaps

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even hundreds, of theories of history have been elaborated. These

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differ endlessly among themselves in the words they use, the

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causal explanations they offer for the historical process, the alleged

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laws of history which they seem to discover, But most

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of these differences are irrelevant to the central problem with

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which this book is concerned. That problem is to discover,

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if possible, what type, if indeed it is to be

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a different type of social organization is on the immediate

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historical horizon. I will pause to say that this book

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was released in nineteen forty one, so he's positing what's

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going to happen, and he probably start he probably wrote

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this in nineteen forty.

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Speaker 1: And he's kind of setting you up, especially you know,

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us US libertarians or former libertarians of what I'd consider

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myself to be. So when you're reading this, whatever definition

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of capitalism he's using, he knows it's not real capitalism, bro,

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and he doesn't care. It's capitalism and its totality, whatever

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your definition is, that's what he's talking.

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Speaker 2: About with reference to this specific problem. All of the theories,

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with the exception of those few which approximate to the

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theory of the managerial revolution, boil down to two and

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only two. The first of these. The first of these

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predicts that capitalism will continue for an indefinite but long time,

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if not forever. That is, that the major institutions of

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capitalist society, or at least most of them will not

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be radically changed. The second predicts that capitalist society will

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be replaced by socialist society. The theory of the managerial revolution

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predicts that capitalist society will be replaced by managerial society,

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the nature of which we'll be explained later. That in fact,

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the transition from capitalists to managerial society is already well underway.

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It is clear that although all three of these theories

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might be false, only one of them can be true.

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The answer that each of them gives to the question

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of what will happen what will actually happen in the future,

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plainly denies the answers given by the other two. If

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then the theory of the managerial revolution is true, it

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must be POSSI will to present consideration sufficient to justify

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us in regard to in regard the other two theories as.

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Speaker 1: False, they're all mutually exclusive.

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Speaker 2: Right. Such demonstration would by itself make the theory of

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the managerial revolution very probable, since apart from these three

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there are at present no other serious theoretical contenders. I propose, therefore,

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in this in the following chapter, to review briefly the

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evidence for rejecting the theory of the permanence of capitalism

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and the theory of the socialist revolution, and we're off.

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Oddly enough, the belief that the capitalists society will continue

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is seldom put in theoretical form. It is rather left

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implicit in what people say and do, and in the

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writings and sayings of most historians, sociologists, and politicians. Nevertheless,

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there is little doubt that the majority of people in

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the United States hold this belief, though it has been

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somewhat shaken in recent years. When examined, this belief is

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seen to be based not on any evidence in its favor,

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but primarily on two assumptions. Both of these assumptions are

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flatly and entirely false. Here we go. The first is

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the assumption that society has always been capitalists in structure,

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and therefore presumably always will be. In actual fact, society

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has been capitalists from a minute fragment of the total

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of total human history. Any exact date shows in its

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the beginning of the good.

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Speaker 1: How many times have you seen people cite instances of

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I guess, right wing anarchism, anarcho capitalism throughout history.

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Speaker 2: I mean it always seems forced.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, extremely like real, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, medieval Iceland, medieval Scotland. Yeah, I mean Ireland. I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, those are the two two ones that come

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to mind as well, and or like uh yeah, so

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I guess what I'm getting at is it's always forced. Uh,

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capitalism has only existed since maybe the late eighteenth century.

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Speaker 2: I mean some people may say the Hanseatic League, which

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goes back further, but I mean on any grand scale

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in the West. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, if if you if you compare it to

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what's what's that, uh, mercantilism. Yeah, uh, that's it's very

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hard when you start differentiating between capitalism and mercantilism. It's

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always kind of a uh, there's there's shape of each

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when you get into that sixteenth seventeenth century and before.

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Speaker 2: All right, moving on any exact date chosen as the

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beginning of capitalism would be arbitrary. But the start of

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capitalist social organization on any wide scale can scarcely be

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put earlier than the fourteenth century AD, and capitalist domination

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must be placed much later than that. The second assumption

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is that capitalism has some necessary kind of correlation with

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human nature. That's man, yep, yeah, I've been I was

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reading John C. Calhoun's Disquisition on government. Got it down

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here somewhere, and his argument for why government is necessary

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is the exact same intro is the exact same argument

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that anarchists or lays fair economists make for why lays

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fair would work.

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Speaker 1: Self interest yep, self ownership, private property or private property

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is an extension of self ownership. And that's kind of

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an appeal to human nature that I hear a lot.

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Speaker 2: All right, So the second assumption is that capitalism has

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some necessary kind of correlation with human nature. This, as

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a matter of fact, is the same assumption as the first,

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but expressed differently. To see that it is false, it

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is not required to be sure just what human nature

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may be. It is enough to observe that human nature

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has been able to adapt itself to dozens of types

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of society, many of which have been studied by anthropologists

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and historians, and a number of which have lasted far

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longer than capitalism.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that's unreasonable to kind of in part

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into your belief system of history.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. With these assumptions dropped, the positive case for

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the view that capitalism will continue doesn't amount to much.

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In fact, has hardly even been stated coherently by anyone.

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But apart from this lack of positive defense, we can,

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I think, lists certain sets of facts which give all

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the grounds that a reasonable man should need for believing

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that capitalism is not going to continue, that it will

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disappear in a couple of decades at most, and perhaps

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in a couple of years, which is as exact as

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one should pretend to be in these matters. These facts

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do not demonstrate this in any way that mathematical or

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logical theorem is demonstrated. No belief about future events can

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be demonstrated. They simply make the belief more probable that

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any alternative belief, which is as much as can be

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can be done. This is in parenthesis in what follows,

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for reasons which will become evident later, I do not

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include references to Germany, Italy or Russia. Okay, The first

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and perhaps crucial evidence for the view that capitalism is

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not going to continue much longer is the continuous, continuous

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presence within the capitalist nations of mass unemployment and the

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failure of all means tried for getting rid of mass unemployment.

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The unemployed, it is especially significant to note, include large

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percentages of the youth just entering working age I.

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Speaker 1: Mean, pause, You're right, there is that applicable to today.

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Speaker 2: It's applicable to every moment of every conscious moment of

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my life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yep. Mass unemployment now not in the traditional sense

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that people are looking for work and they just can't

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find jobs because there's no there's no productive positions for

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them to fill. But if you look at today, this

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call for universal basic income, universal health care, this this

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emphasis on work life balance, I think that's in response

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to not so much people being unemployed through no through

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no fault of their own, but this general drive towards uh,

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not having to work for your basic necessities is stemmed

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from the fact that there's just not a whole lot

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of people working and and at the same time, there's

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not a whole lot of people looking for work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I would. Yeah. I don't know if

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I have anything to add to that. Yeah, okay, cool,

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I'm gonna move on. Continuous mass unemployment is not new

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in history. It is in fact them that a given

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type of social organization is just about finished. It was

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found among the poorer citizens during the last years of Athens,

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among the urban proletariat as they were called in the

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Roman Empire, and very notably at the end of the

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Middle Ages, among the dispossessed serfs and villains who had

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been thrown off the land in order to make way

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for capitalist use of the land. I pronounced that, right, villains,

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I recognize that from Marx I think, so, yeah, yeah,

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what is a villain hold on? I'm trying to remember now.

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I looked it up once. I read feudal tenant entirely

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subject to a lord, so basically close enough to a serf.

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Mass unemployment means that the given type of social organization

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has broken down, that it cannot any longer provide its

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members with socially useful functions, even according to its own

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ideas of what is socially useful? Hey, uncle ted, how

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are you doing? It cannot support these masses for any

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length of time and idleness, for its resources are not

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sufficient the unemployed.

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Speaker 1: That's where the Marxists would disagree. They would say, no, no,

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we have the resources. They're just not being diverted to it.

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You know, They're being diverted to socially unnecessary production.

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Speaker 2: Right. The unemployed, however, on the fringe of society on

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the one hand, like a terrible weight dragging it down

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and believing it to death. On the other, a constant,

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irritant and reservoir of forces directed against the society that

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is brutal. Man experience has already shown that there is

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not the slightest prospect of ridding capitalism of mass unemployment.

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This is nineteen forty one, so eighty years ago. Eighty one.

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This is indeed becoming widely admitted among the defenders of

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capitalism as well as many spokesmen of the New Deal.

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Even total war, the most drastic conceivable solution, could not

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end mass unemployment in England and France, nor will it

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do so in this country. Every solution that has any

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possibility of succeeding leads directly or indirectly outside the framework

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of capitalism.

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Speaker 1: That that right there, like just really hit home. When

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you have an ideology and you're trying to apply an

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ideological solution to reality. You're and let's say it's let's

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say you're an anarchic capitalist, for instance, You're trying to

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game out ways to apply solutions. The law of unintended

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consequences will take effect, and there's really nothing in the

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anarcho capitalist toolbox that can fix mass unemployment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean they will say that, you know,

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the freer of the market, the more jobs will be created,

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and you will have one unemployment. I mean, you'll have

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zero percent unemployment. Sorry, yeah, yeah, and the only people

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who at that point, the only people who will work,

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who won't work, or people who can't work. Yeah, I

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mean I think that's pine in the sky.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, that's that's what I'm saying. The the solutions

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applied to reality, if you take it, if you're in

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a capitalist framework, all of your solutions that are within

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that capitalist framework, there there's no uh, there's no solving

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it within it.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think some may argue that because you're in

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an anarcho capitalist society and there are no entitlements, no welfare,

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no nothing like that, that people will be compelled to work,

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that they'll be forced to work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's true. I've always kind of envisioned, uh

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not not not trying to straw man, but an anarcho

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capitalist society is like that ten thousand leak con shines

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more more of a corporate structure where you know, the

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cons Herman Hopp covenant communities. If you take the idea

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of a covenant community, will there be unemployment in a

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covenant community.

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Speaker 2: And depends on it depends on the constitution of the

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covenant community exactly.

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Speaker 1: Yep, yeah, So I mean either way, it's it's it's

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a nice I love it. That's where I come from,

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and I would love to see that implemented. But I

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guess what constitutes mass unemployment would depend on the covenant community.

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Speaker 2: Two. Capitalism has always been characterized by recurring economic crises,

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by periods of boom followed by periods of depression. Until

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a dozen years ago, however, the curve of total production

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always went higher in one major boom period than in

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the boom proceding. It did so not only in terms

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of the actual quality of goods produced, but in the

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relative quantity of the volume of goods compared to the

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increased population and plant capacity. Thus, in spite of the crises,

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there was a general overall increase in capitalist production, which

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was simply the measure of the ability of capitalist social

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organization to handle its own resources. Since the World Crisis

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of nineteen twenty seven through twenty nine, this overall curve

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has reversed. The height of a boom period relative to

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population and potential capacity is lower than that of the

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preceding boom. The new direction of the curve is, in

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its turn, simply the expression of the fact that capitalism

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can no longer handle its own resources.

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Speaker 1: And again, uh, for all the mesessians listening, that boom

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and bus cycle. We know it's due to the expansion

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of credit. But you know Burnham, Burnham incorporates central banking

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into his view of capitalism.

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Speaker 2: Well, he's also living in the real world. He's talking

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about what's happening now. And yeah, you can already hear

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people screaming, well, that's not real capitalism.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that boom and bus cycle. I mean again,

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like I love, I love an cap theory, but there's

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really nothing inherently, there's nothing to inoculate, say, a covenant

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community with a bank with a currency from a boom

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and bus cycle, because credit credit in and of itself

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isn't isn't tied to any type of ideology.

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Speaker 2: Well, what I would like to say here is that

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it looks like Burnham is making like he did say

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he did make an immediate kind of prediction. The first

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sentence of part three here is the volume of public

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and private debt has reached a point where it cannot

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be managed much longer. Okay, so some people would say, okay,

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how are we still how are we still going well?

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I mean maybe they adjusted, they bring in a Paul

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Volker or someone like that to get it through. But

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what I want to say more about these timeframes is

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it's hard to predict when you know something is going bad.

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When you know something is going wrong, there could be

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somebody out there who has already figured out how to

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let how to keep that wrong going. For a long time,

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there were a lot of people talking about the fall

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of the Roman Empire in the first and second century.

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It took a couple more centuries. It does not discount

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the arguments that they were making, no, not at all.

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Speaker 1: And applying it to now, if you view the United

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States as the beacon of capitalism and Enlightenment values and

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all that, you can you can see its evolution or

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de evolution from its from its inception to right now.

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And you know, capitalism even, you know, even when deregulation

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and all these good libertarian policies were applied sparingly throughout history,

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it wasn't enough to manage the decline.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to read the first sentence again and keep going.

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The volume of public and private debt had reached a

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point where it cannot be managed much longer. The debt,

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like the unemployed, sucks away the diminishing bloodstream of capitalism,

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and it cannot be shaken off. Bankruptcies, which formerly readjusted

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the debt position of capitalism, hardly make a debt in it.

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The scale of bankruptcy or inflation, which could reduce the

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debt to manageable size, would, at the same time, as

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all economists recognize, utterly dislocate all capitalist institutions.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, going back to HAPA, any institution,

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whether it's a nation state or a company or covenant community,

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any institution is own to just that high time preference culture,

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of which leads to that racking up of unmanageable debt.

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And that kind of segues nicely into I'm why I'm right.

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Speaker 2: Wing, all right. The maintenance of the capitalist market depended

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on at least comparatively free monetary exchange transactions. The area

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of these, especially on a words a world scale, is

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diminishing towards a vanishing point. This is well indicated by

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the useless gold hoard at Fort Knox and the barter

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methods of Russia, Germany and Italy. I believe if you

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were at this in forty or forty one, it was

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released to forty one. We get Breton Woods in five years, right,

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I think breton Woods is forty six. Oh done.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the mortal wound to the whatever whatever gold

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standard we had left.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it was a forty four summit. So yeah,

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the uh try to explain Breton Woods. The best I

340
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can is basically what it meant was that. Okay, So

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the delegates agreed that the gold standard would create a

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fixed currency exchange exchange rate, so there'd be no fluction.

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There'd be no fluctuation, no market. The agreement also facilitated

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the creation of immensely important structures in the financial world,

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the IMF, the International Bank for Reconstruction in the International

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Bank for Reconstruction and Development, which is known today as

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the World Bank. So that's your Breton Woods. And yeah,

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you're you're right, there's no what did you.

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Speaker 1: Say, No more market no more yeah, no more market

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forces affecting the exchange rate.

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Speaker 2: Yep, all right. Four the maintenance of the capitalist market

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depended on, at least comparatively I already read that one.

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Since shortly this is part five, Since shortly after the

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First World War that there has been in all major

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capitalist nations a permanent agricultural depression. Agriculture is obviously an

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indispensable part of the total economy, and the breakdown in

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this essential sector is another mark of the incurable disease

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afflicting capitalism. No remedies and how and how many they

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are that have been tried produce any sign of cure.

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The farming populations sink in debt and poverty, and not

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enough food is produced and distributed while agriculture is kept

362
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barely going through huge state subsidies.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if today we have a problem of

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not enough food being produced, but I know that I

365
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just don't know a whole lot about the agricultural industry

366
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right now, but I know one thing I do know

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is that it is propped up entirely by state subsidies.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, somebody is screaming right now though, that that

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FDR had them destroy food in the thirties so that

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he could keep prices high to affect supply and demand.

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But that's what you have under capitalism.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a solution well within the bounds of capitalism.

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You know, a private entity can do that just as

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well as a public one.

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Speaker 2: Dan, no man, only the state's evil. Only the state's evil, dude.

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Capitalism is no longer able to find uses for the

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available investment funds, which waste in idleness in the account

378
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books of the banks. The mass unemployment of private money

379
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is scarcely less indicative of the death of capitalism than

380
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the mass unemployment of human beings. Damn, this mass unemployment

381
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of private money, that's a really good phrase.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it strikes a uh, I know, it strikes

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at my Mesessian sensibilities.

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Speaker 2: Both show the inability of the capitalist institutions any longer

385
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to organize human activities. During the past decade, in the

386
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United States, as in other capitalist nations, new capital investment

387
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has come almost entirely from the state, not from private funds.

388
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Speaker 1: Yep. And uh even now, I mean with with the

389
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literal trillions of dollars sitting in futures and uh, you know,

390
00:27:54,839 --> 00:28:01,400
investment portfolios and assets and all that, can we honestly

391
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say that it's being employed in any sense in a

392
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beneficial way to society. And this is where you get

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kind of people varying off and going towards Marxism.

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Speaker 2: Seven. The continuance of capitalism was, we saw, dependent upon

395
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a certain relationship between the great powers and the backward

396
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sections and peoples of the earth. One of the most

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striking developments of the past fifteen years, which has been

398
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little noticed, is the inability of the great capitalist nations

399
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,359
any longer to manage the exploitation and development of these

400
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:42,200
backward sections. This is nowhere better illustrated than in the

401
00:28:42,279 --> 00:28:46,279
relations between the United States and South America. The United States,

402
00:28:46,359 --> 00:28:50,240
in spite of its imperious necessity for the nation's very survival,

403
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,960
has not and cannot devise a scheme for handling the

404
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:59,039
economic phase of a temisphere policy. Though during the past

405
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few years and above and above all during the war

406
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the road has been wide open. Nothing gets done here. Again,

407
00:29:06,799 --> 00:29:10,599
the only workable schemes are compelled to leave the basis

408
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of capitalism.

409
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Speaker 1: Which is war and color revolutions, Yeah, publics and all that.

410
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Speaker 2: This is why, if you ask somebody, you know, how

411
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did the United States get out of the Great Depression,

412
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they've been taught to say, well, world War two, you know,

413
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Because I mean, honestly, if war is the greatest thing

414
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for the economy, we should just be blowing up our

415
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own buildings and bridges just constantly Oh yeah, infrastructure, man

416
00:29:45,599 --> 00:29:49,920
Capitalism is no longer able to use its own technological possibilities.

417
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One side of this is shown by such facts as

418
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the inability of the United States to carry out a

419
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housing program when the houses are needed and wanted and

420
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the technical means to produce them in abundance or on hand.

421
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This is the case with almost all goods. But an

422
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,119
equally symptomatic side is seen in the inability to make

423
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use of many inventions and new technical methods. Hundreds of these,

424
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though they could reduce immeasurably the number of man hours

425
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needed to turn out goods and increase greatly the convenience

426
00:30:21,559 --> 00:30:25,720
of life, nonetheless sit on the shelf. In many entire

427
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economic sectors, such as agriculture, building, coal mining. The technical

428
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,680
methods today available make the usual present methods seem stone age,

429
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,240
and nearly every economic field is to some degree affected.

430
00:30:42,319 --> 00:30:47,000
Using the inventions and methods available available, would, it is

431
00:30:47,039 --> 00:30:54,319
correctly understood, smash up the capitalist structure. Technological unemployment is

432
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,319
present in recent capitalism, but it is hardly anything compared

433
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to what technological unemployed would be if capitalism made use

434
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,559
of its available technology.

435
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:10,079
Speaker 1: He just talking about achieving post scarcity through automation and

436
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,759
all that, and uh, you know, we we have that today.

437
00:31:13,839 --> 00:31:17,839
We have the means to automate almost every facet of

438
00:31:17,839 --> 00:31:21,440
the production process in any industry. And uh, you know,

439
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,599
this is where we get into the managerial state.

440
00:31:25,559 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, these facts also show that capitalism and its rulers

441
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,799
can no longer use their own resources. And the point

442
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:40,359
is that if they won't, someone else will. Nine As

443
00:31:40,359 --> 00:31:46,759
symptomatic and decisive as these economic and technical developments, it

444
00:31:46,799 --> 00:31:51,400
as symptom hold on, here we go. As symptomatic and

445
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,680
decisive as these economic and technological developments is the fact

446
00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:01,079
that the ideologies of capitalism, the bourgeois ideologies, have become impotent.

447
00:32:02,079 --> 00:32:06,119
Ideologies we have seen, are the cement that binds together

448
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,799
the social fabric. When the cement loosens, the fabric is

449
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about to disintegrate. And no one who has watched the

450
00:32:13,519 --> 00:32:16,519
world during the past twenty years can doubt the ever

451
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,400
increasing importance of the bourgeois ideologies.

452
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Speaker 1: Yeah, impotence.

453
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Speaker 2: So already Humble bragged about this on Twitter. I was

454
00:32:26,119 --> 00:32:31,480
hanging out with Jarvin, who basically has gotten people to

455
00:32:31,519 --> 00:32:35,119
read Burnham, and I asked him about this quote, because

456
00:32:35,319 --> 00:32:37,000
this is a quote that a lot of people use

457
00:32:38,599 --> 00:32:43,559
to say that Burnham was not against ideologies. He says,

458
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,680
ideologies we have seen are the cement that binds together

459
00:32:46,759 --> 00:32:50,920
the social fabric. So what I asked Jarvin was, are

460
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:58,000
ideologies for the plebs and the people who are in power,

461
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:09,880
who desire power, who understand power, understand that ideology is handcuffs. Yeah,

462
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,160
he seemed to agree with that. So you seem to

463
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,480
agree that the powerful will push ideologies upon people and

464
00:33:17,519 --> 00:33:19,319
say this is what's going to hold you, this is

465
00:33:19,359 --> 00:33:22,519
what holds us together while they are While they are

466
00:33:23,279 --> 00:33:26,960
I have no ideology whatsoever, even if they're telling you

467
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,440
they have the same ideology as you and they're just

468
00:33:29,519 --> 00:33:32,400
doing as they wish with the power that's been granted them.

469
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Speaker 1: Yeah, particularly bourgeois ideologies like monarchism or or liberalism or

470
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,960
you know, any of those. Those those I'm not saying

471
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:49,799
that to you know, as a as being mean or anything,

472
00:33:49,839 --> 00:33:54,400
but uh, you know, if if your middle class abides

473
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,720
but by a general ideology like say liberalism in the

474
00:33:58,839 --> 00:34:02,480
United States, and then they have you know, different disagreements

475
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:07,319
and factions scattered throughout, you could still have a cohesive society.

476
00:34:08,519 --> 00:34:12,679
If half your society is communist and the other half is,

477
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,000
you know, liberal, then that's when you're going to see

478
00:34:16,119 --> 00:34:20,320
things like Russia, things like Germany, things like Italy, China.

479
00:34:21,519 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 2: Yep, I'm going to read that again. Ideologies we have

480
00:34:24,519 --> 00:34:27,840
seen are the cement that binds together the social fabric.

481
00:34:28,519 --> 00:34:31,400
When the cement loosens, the fabric is about to disintegrate.

482
00:34:32,039 --> 00:34:33,880
And no one who has watched the world during the

483
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,199
past twenty years can doubt the ever increasing impotence of

484
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:43,079
the bourgeois ideologies. On the one hand, the scientific pretensions

485
00:34:43,079 --> 00:34:48,039
of these ideologies have been exploded. History, sociology, and anthropology

486
00:34:48,039 --> 00:34:50,960
are not yet much as sciences, but they are enough

487
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,559
to show every serious person that the concepts of the

488
00:34:53,559 --> 00:34:57,360
bourgeois ideologies are not written in the stars, or not

489
00:34:57,559 --> 00:35:02,119
universal laws of nature, but aret best, just temporary expressions

490
00:35:02,119 --> 00:35:05,400
of the interests and ideals of a particular class of

491
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,199
men at a particular historical time.

492
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,199
Speaker 1: That was a punch and look out to me too. Yep,

493
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:16,960
we're all just dust in the wind man.

494
00:35:18,599 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 2: It does not matter how non scientific or anti scientific

495
00:35:22,199 --> 00:35:25,199
and ideology may be. It can do its work so

496
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,480
long as it possesses the power to move great masses

497
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:33,440
of men to action. This, this the bourgeois ideologies once

498
00:35:33,559 --> 00:35:36,800
could do, as the great revolutions and the imperial and

499
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,280
economic conquest prove, And this they can no longer do.

500
00:35:42,039 --> 00:35:45,239
That's so spot on, It's ridiculous.

501
00:35:47,159 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 1: Are you going to die for libertarianism? You are you ready, comrade?

502
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,119
Speaker 2: I'm ready to die to end these lockdowns. When the

503
00:35:57,159 --> 00:36:00,239
bourgeois ideologies were challenged in the Sar and this day

504
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,800
and land by the ideology of Nazism, it was Nazism

505
00:36:04,039 --> 00:36:07,119
that won the sentiment of the overwhelming majority of the people.

506
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,920
All possible discounts for the effects of Nazi terrorism must

507
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:17,480
not delude us into misreading this brute fact. Ben, that's

508
00:36:17,519 --> 00:36:18,719
a paragraph right there.

509
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Esz.

510
00:36:22,079 --> 00:36:25,119
Speaker 2: Only the hopelessly naive can imagine that France fell so

511
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,159
swiftly because of the mere mechanical strength of the Nazi

512
00:36:28,159 --> 00:36:31,599
war machine. That might have been sufficient in a longer run,

513
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,280
but not to destroy a great nation with a colossal

514
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:38,480
military establishment in a few weeks. France collapsed so swiftly

515
00:36:38,519 --> 00:36:41,519
because its people had no heart for the war, as

516
00:36:41,599 --> 00:36:45,239
every observer had remarked even through the censorship from the

517
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,559
beginning of the war, and they had no heart for

518
00:36:47,599 --> 00:36:51,559
the war because the bourgeois ideologies by which they were

519
00:36:51,599 --> 00:36:54,800
appealed to no longer had power to move their hearts.

520
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,559
Men are prepared to be heroes for very foolish and

521
00:36:57,639 --> 00:37:03,519
unworthy ideals, but they must at least believe in those ideals. Man, Yeah,

522
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:05,039
he's just throwing haymakers.

523
00:37:06,519 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 1: No, I was. I was. It's kind of a like

524
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,920
a you know, a blue collar trope that like the

525
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,920
French are pussies and cowards and all that. But you know,

526
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,880
when I read that paragraph, I was like, you know what,

527
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,239
He's absolutely right, there was. They're no different than anybody else.

528
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,239
They just weren't moved. They didn't have they didn't have

529
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,840
leaders worth following, they didn't have beliefs that resonated with them.

530
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,639
And uh, now that's why we're having a retention crisis

531
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:32,800
right now in our military.

532
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, say the French were pussies in seventeen eighty nine. Well,

533
00:37:40,639 --> 00:37:43,760
nowhere is the impotence of bourgeois ideology is more apparent

534
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,920
than among the youth, and the coming world, after all,

535
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,039
will be the youth's world. The abject failure of voluntary

536
00:37:51,119 --> 00:37:54,440
military enlistment in Britain. In this country tells its own

537
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,360
story to all who wished to listen. It is underlined

538
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,599
in reverse by the hundred of Distinguished Adult Voices, which

539
00:38:02,679 --> 00:38:06,719
during nineteen forty began reproaching the American youth for indifference,

540
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:12,400
unwillingness to sacrifice, lack of ideals. How right these reproaches

541
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:20,679
are and how little effect they have? Man, do you

542
00:38:21,559 --> 00:38:23,760
do you see how inconsistent you're thinking?

543
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: Is?

544
00:38:25,079 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 2: Yeah? Come on, man, it's like, yeah, it's like telling

545
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:30,239
a leftist that they're inconsistent.

546
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,280
Speaker 1: I just think when I read that, I was like,

547
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,679
I just just wait a few months, when you know,

548
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,800
Pearl Harbor happens, then I like, I honestly don't know

549
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,639
if we would have even needed a draft. Yeah, but

550
00:38:44,679 --> 00:38:47,719
that's not so much them being motivated by any type

551
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:54,679
of patriotism or you know, love of liberalism and democracy

552
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:56,960
and all that. That's it was a revenge thing.

553
00:38:57,599 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it has nothing to do with ideologies or

554
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,960
that's what they've been able to manufacture. With the terror wars.

555
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: They saw how effective Pearl Harbor was, and uh, you know,

556
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,400
depending on depending on where where you sit on that

557
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:18,000
they created more or they you know, literally created more.

558
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, if you can't sell love of country

559
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,400
or anything anymore, but then let's sell that. You know,

560
00:39:24,679 --> 00:39:29,440
the Commis are encroaching Korea and Vietnam, the Commis are croaching,

561
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:36,599
encroaching Grenada, the radical Islamic terrorism, Iraq War one one

562
00:39:36,599 --> 00:39:40,559
and a half two, Great Afghanistan nine to eleven. Wherever

563
00:39:40,559 --> 00:39:45,679
you stand that nine to eleven. In truth, the bourgeoisie

564
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:50,079
itself has in large measure lost confidence in its own ideologies.

565
00:39:51,199 --> 00:39:53,360
The words begin to have a hollow sound in the

566
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:58,960
most sympathetic capitalist ears. This too, is unmistakably revealed in

567
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,679
the policy anditude of England's rulers during the past years.

568
00:40:03,599 --> 00:40:06,039
What was Munich and the whole policy of appeasement but

569
00:40:06,119 --> 00:40:10,960
a recognition of bourgeois impotence. Oh Man going after Chamberlain

570
00:40:11,039 --> 00:40:15,199
bad Huh. The head of the British Government's traveling to

571
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,440
the feet of the Austrian house painter was the fitting

572
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,760
symbol of the capitalist loss of faith in themselves. Let

573
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:25,639
me read that again. The head of the British Government's

574
00:40:25,679 --> 00:40:29,119
traveling to the feet of the Austrian house painter was

575
00:40:29,159 --> 00:40:33,079
the fitting symbol of the capitalist's loss of faith in themselves.

576
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 1: The Austrian house painter.

577
00:40:37,119 --> 00:40:41,760
Speaker 2: Wonder who that is. Every authentic report during the autumn

578
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,920
of nineteen thirty nine from Britain told of the discouragement

579
00:40:45,159 --> 00:40:48,400
and fear of the leaders in government and business. And

580
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,320
no one who has listened to American leaders off the record,

581
00:40:51,559 --> 00:40:54,599
or who has followed the less public organs of British

582
00:40:54,639 --> 00:40:58,599
of business opinion, will suppose that such attitudes are confined

583
00:40:58,639 --> 00:41:04,679
to Britain. All history makes clear that an indispensable quality

584
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,280
of any man or class that wishes to lead to

585
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:13,519
hold power and privilege in society is boundless self confidence.

586
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,960
Other sets of facts could easily easily be added to

587
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,519
this list, but these are perhaps the most plainly sympathetic,

588
00:41:23,079 --> 00:41:29,199
a symptomatic sorry. Their effect, moreover is cumulative. The attempted

589
00:41:29,199 --> 00:41:35,440
remedies for them experience shows only gravity only aggravate them. Sorry.

590
00:41:36,159 --> 00:41:39,400
They permit no other conclusion than the capitalist organization of

591
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:44,480
society has entered its final years. Let me read that

592
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:49,639
last sentence of the body of that again. All history

593
00:41:49,679 --> 00:41:52,639
makes clear that an indispensable quality of any man or

594
00:41:52,679 --> 00:41:56,000
class that wishes to lead to hold power and privilege

595
00:41:56,039 --> 00:42:02,159
in society is boundless self confidence. It's I mean, can

596
00:42:02,599 --> 00:42:04,079
is there any way you can argue with that?

597
00:42:05,119 --> 00:42:08,679
Speaker 1: Not at all, not recently. No, And you know, whether

598
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:13,679
you're talking about Trump or you know, the Four Horsemen

599
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:20,119
or whoever else, I mean boundless self confidence like just

600
00:42:20,639 --> 00:42:24,400
having having the ability to be persuasive to the masses.

601
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,960
You could be speaking you could be speaking Chinese and

602
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,199
you know they'll they'll follow you. Well.

603
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 2: I mean, it's one of those things that I remember

604
00:42:36,519 --> 00:42:41,639
middle school teacher telling me, you know, and we didn't

605
00:42:41,679 --> 00:42:43,400
have the Internet at this time, so it was kind

606
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,280
of hard to find. But he's like, if you can

607
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,400
find a video of Hitler speaking, you won't even have

608
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,480
to know what he's saying. You will be moved.

609
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:55,639
Speaker 1: Yeah.

610
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,760
Speaker 2: Absolutely, that's hard for you know, to hear when you're

611
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,639
in middle school and you've already had, you know, a

612
00:43:02,679 --> 00:43:06,599
good ten years of indoctrination into the you know that,

613
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:10,400
oh my god, Hitler. No, No, there's no way, and

614
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,199
then you like listen to him and speak and you're like,

615
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,360
holy crap. And then it.

616
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,159
Speaker 1: Becomes the joke like say what you want about Hitler

617
00:43:17,199 --> 00:43:19,400
but you know, fantastic orator.

618
00:43:19,599 --> 00:43:23,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, say what you want about Ussolini with those trains

619
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:24,000
right on time.

620
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, if you if you kind of

621
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:37,639
apply that that idea to our sphere or former sphere

622
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:45,639
or whatever, it's something that even even the leadership like

623
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:50,599
at the top can't can't really make that happen. Like, yeah,

624
00:43:50,639 --> 00:43:55,159
the whole boundless self confidence thing. I mean, when you're

625
00:43:55,159 --> 00:43:58,639
in a leadership position and you're trying to move people

626
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,960
like you can't you can't be self deprecating, you can't

627
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,920
be speaking a language like you know that comes off

628
00:44:07,199 --> 00:44:09,760
to normal people like you're some type of bug man.

629
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:13,920
You know. That's that's why populism's taking a grip, both

630
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,519
left wing and right wing populism is taking a grip

631
00:44:16,639 --> 00:44:21,960
right now. It's because they have fantastic, relatable, persuasive orators.

632
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:26,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, or tweeters or what was the last time he

633
00:44:26,559 --> 00:44:29,960
saw Anthony Sabattini put something out that was like slightly cringe.

634
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:34,119
I don't remember. People who don't know Anthony Sabattini is

635
00:44:34,159 --> 00:44:38,239
a state senator in Florida who would be nice to

636
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:42,400
see on the on the big stage just because he

637
00:44:42,519 --> 00:44:44,239
has no filter whatsoever.

638
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,199
Speaker 1: What's uh, what's going on with Matt Gates?

639
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 2: I don't know. They're trying to they try to take

640
00:44:53,079 --> 00:44:56,840
him down with that whole thing and everything. But I

641
00:44:57,039 --> 00:45:03,119
though was mentioning something this weekend about that about Matt Yeah, he.

642
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,519
Speaker 1: You can tell that it's bullshit because the Republican Party

643
00:45:08,559 --> 00:45:12,599
as a whole has not at all distanced themselves from him, right,

644
00:45:13,119 --> 00:45:16,320
it's only the people that have like said anything. We're

645
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,360
like the you know, the anti Trump Republicans that didn't

646
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:24,480
like him to begin with. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and them too.

647
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:27,480
But that's that's how I can kind of gauge what's

648
00:45:27,519 --> 00:45:30,599
bullshit or not, because you know, the top leadership of

649
00:45:30,599 --> 00:45:33,440
the party isn't saying anything. They're treating him exactly the

650
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,079
same as they were before, so you could be rest

651
00:45:37,119 --> 00:45:38,519
assured that they don't have anything.

652
00:45:39,679 --> 00:45:43,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a hard hitting essay because when you

653
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:49,039
define capitalism properly, because there is no free market lays fair,

654
00:45:49,119 --> 00:45:51,239
and there is not going to be a free market

655
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:55,199
lays fair, at least not in our lifetime, and people

656
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:57,559
can make, you know, you can make the argument that

657
00:45:57,719 --> 00:45:59,320
when I was reading it, I was thinking, oh, well,

658
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,079
you know, if you're in the black market, it's free

659
00:46:01,079 --> 00:46:03,199
and everything. It's like, well, it's really not that free.

660
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:06,679
I mean, you like literally might have to protect yourself

661
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:11,880
with with a lot of firepower, protect your business, and

662
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,039
you never see best You never see best Buy running

663
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:21,400
drive bys on brands Mart. So yeah, but capitalism. If

664
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:23,599
you're going to use the term capitalism now, and you're

665
00:46:23,599 --> 00:46:25,960
going to use it in any other way than something

666
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:34,559
that is pure theory, just use it. It's amazing to

667
00:46:34,599 --> 00:46:37,400
me that the same people that will say, you know, well,

668
00:46:37,559 --> 00:46:41,519
real capitalism hasn't been tried, will argue that capitalism has

669
00:46:41,599 --> 00:46:46,719
gotten out gotten a billion Asians out of out of

670
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:51,880
poverty in the last thirty years. Yeah, and that I say, well,

671
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:53,880
that was neoliberalism.

672
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:56,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then it becomes like, oh, I don't like that.

673
00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:03,320
Speaker 2: Though, because it was neoliberalism, and it really was. I mean, stop,

674
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:08,320
you know, I mean, neoliberalism is horrible when you look

675
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:10,239
at idea, you know, when you look at it from

676
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:14,360
an ideological perspective. But they did get a billion people,

677
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,440
a billionass out of out of poverty in the last

678
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:18,119
thirty years.

679
00:47:19,039 --> 00:47:22,519
Speaker 1: Yeah. If you view the onset of capitalism as you know,

680
00:47:22,599 --> 00:47:27,519
the old school medieval burgers sezed literally seizing power and

681
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:34,199
solidifying private property rights from the King that that that

682
00:47:34,199 --> 00:47:38,400
that kind of gives you a historical perspective, and eventually

683
00:47:39,079 --> 00:47:43,360
that system of private property rights, you know, seizing private

684
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:47,719
property rights, seizing free markets. You know that that came

685
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,440
at a cost. And now we're entering an era where

686
00:47:51,079 --> 00:47:55,239
you know, it's it's evolving into something else, whether it's socialism, fascism,

687
00:47:55,480 --> 00:48:01,599
or as Burnham pos, it's a managerial state. Regardless it is,

688
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:07,480
it's fundamentally departed from, you know, the liberal ideal of

689
00:48:07,559 --> 00:48:08,679
what capitalism is.

690
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 2: Well, what we did find was that managerial, the managerial

691
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:18,559
state is a lot better than what South Korea had before.

692
00:48:19,079 --> 00:48:20,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

693
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, able to drive able to drive a lot of

694
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,239
people out of cap out of poverty.

695
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, it's it's another thing, like you know,

696
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,119
I I would rather have a managerial state that you know,

697
00:48:34,679 --> 00:48:40,039
I share values and a culture with than a libertarian

698
00:48:40,159 --> 00:48:44,599
utopia of like blue haired opese trannies that you know.

699
00:48:45,599 --> 00:48:51,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that just reminded me I need to

700
00:48:51,519 --> 00:48:53,519
ask just the Jeff Dice, the question all that I

701
00:48:53,519 --> 00:49:02,000
got write this now, do you still believe I just

702
00:49:02,039 --> 00:49:04,159
think of one of his famoue, one of his famous

703
00:49:04,199 --> 00:49:06,440
quotes from a few years ago, and I want to

704
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,440
see what he has to say now that COVID and

705
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:16,159
everything is completely insane. But the yeah, I mean Burnham Man,

706
00:49:16,199 --> 00:49:20,400
there's something in every friggin reading. And what's funny is

707
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:24,719
this is I'm doing this with you and very well,

708
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,840
I'm going to release this next is my next episode,

709
00:49:28,159 --> 00:49:33,440
the very next episode. Maybe myself and Buck Buck Johnson

710
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:38,639
reading Samuel Francis's chapter out of this his review of

711
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:42,760
Suicide of the West by Burnham. This is Sam Francis

712
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:46,280
Thinkers of Our Times James Burnham, where he basically does

713
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:51,719
a commentary on every James Burnham book I have. I

714
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,039
went and bought another one of these because I'm tearing

715
00:49:54,039 --> 00:49:56,320
this up so bad. I just wanted to have one

716
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:58,039
because this is right now, this is the book I

717
00:49:58,079 --> 00:49:58,800
can't put down.

718
00:49:59,679 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I'm you know, going from Lenin to Burnham,

719
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,039
it you can tell that he was kind of in

720
00:50:06,159 --> 00:50:08,119
that sphere at one point because he has the same

721
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:13,679
polemical writing style and uh like it's actually very easy

722
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:15,960
to read. You know, you have to kind of learn

723
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:20,000
a different language when you're reading like the Orthodox Marxists,

724
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:23,800
but with Burnham it's it's kind of more you know,

725
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:27,920
there's a lot less learning curve. No, no learning curve

726
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:32,159
for me really, But yeah, I would highly recommend any

727
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:35,159
any Burnham content. But I'm just happy to read be

728
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:37,159
reading The Managerial Revolution right now.

729
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:41,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, after you read, if you can get Lenin down,

730
00:50:41,599 --> 00:50:44,159
you don't have to get it down perfectly, but just understand,

731
00:50:45,039 --> 00:50:48,199
you know, have a good grasp of it. Reading Burnham

732
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:49,000
is a lot easier.

733
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:51,519
Speaker 1: He was at he was.

734
00:50:51,559 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 2: Head of, he was head of like a Trotsky like

735
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:56,840
organization or something like that. I mean, the guy was

736
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:59,559
deep in it and then just took a did a

737
00:50:59,639 --> 00:51:01,400
huge yeah.

738
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:05,320
Speaker 1: And then the next chapter it's like on the on

739
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:10,639
the coming transition to socialism or whatever, he goes into

740
00:51:10,679 --> 00:51:16,000
the fact that workers as a class are very malleable ideologically.

741
00:51:16,039 --> 00:51:19,199
There's no guarantee that they're going to fulfill their Marxist

742
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:23,440
destiny of you know, uh, seizing power and bringing about

743
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:29,159
a communist society. They might seize power, but it it'll

744
00:51:29,199 --> 00:51:32,159
look like, you know, either Nazi Germany or Russia or

745
00:51:32,599 --> 00:51:33,559
you know something else.

746
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 2: Well, even Lenin knew that, and that's why Lenin wasn't

747
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:42,039
an internationalist like Trotsky. Yeah. Yeah, it was four and

748
00:51:42,079 --> 00:51:44,920
Stalin picked up on that that too, and then of

749
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:49,599
course later things got things would awry after you know,

750
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:51,880
certain people got into power and they were like, oh,

751
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,400
we gotta we got to expand this a little bit.

752
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,320
Good luck with that. That's when you were that's when

753
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:00,119
you realize the world doesn't want this. And when I

754
00:52:00,159 --> 00:52:02,079
say the world, I'm talking about the people. People of

755
00:52:02,159 --> 00:52:03,360
this world do not want this.

756
00:52:03,639 --> 00:52:03,800
Speaker 1: You know.

757
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 2: It was like when what's his name, I can't remember

758
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:09,880
the American journalists, he's like the only American who's buried

759
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:14,639
in uh, buried in the Kremlin or in the tomb there.

760
00:52:15,159 --> 00:52:18,519
He John Reid, I think it was when he went

761
00:52:18,599 --> 00:52:22,000
to Russia pre revolution and he was telling Lenin and

762
00:52:22,039 --> 00:52:25,840
he's like, the American workers will will stand with with

763
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:29,039
the Russian workers, and it's like, no, they won't.

764
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's smoking crack.

765
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's not smoking crack. It's like you're he's

766
00:52:35,079 --> 00:52:39,480
literally lining to him, yeah, to get you know, to

767
00:52:39,519 --> 00:52:41,960
get him to he was trying to get him to

768
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:48,920
go forth, to push harder in what he was doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

769
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:52,400
Some of those Americans that went over there were way

770
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:56,039
more hardcore than a lot of even Lenin's inner group,

771
00:52:56,199 --> 00:52:58,000
because you know, Lenon had guys in his inner group

772
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:02,320
who were like, is this gonna work? Yeah, back to

773
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:05,480
my farm, everything will be fine. Or we could just

774
00:53:05,519 --> 00:53:09,639
go back. Let's let's get this war over so we

775
00:53:09,679 --> 00:53:15,000
can go back to Germany and Switzerland. You know they

776
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,679
were living the good life there for for a decade

777
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:18,199
and a half.

778
00:53:18,559 --> 00:53:24,039
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, German intelligence agencies were fucking like rock stars,

779
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:27,840
fucking making it rain.

780
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:30,920
Speaker 2: Anyway, got anything to plug?

781
00:53:33,039 --> 00:53:35,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can find me on uh not the latest

782
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:39,000
episode of Timeline Earth due to a scheduling dispute, but

783
00:53:39,199 --> 00:53:42,800
uh yeah you'll you'll eventually find me on Timeline Earth.

784
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,559
And uh, I hope to keep keep doing little tidbits

785
00:53:45,599 --> 00:53:48,400
like this. I'm kind of entering a transition phase in

786
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:52,639
my professional life and uh taking a taking a step

787
00:53:52,639 --> 00:53:56,440
back from content creation, but uh, you know, I'm always

788
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,679
available for a guest spot, and uh, especially for you.

789
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:04,800
Speaker 2: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekanana Show.

790
00:54:05,599 --> 00:54:07,400
Has this guy ever been on the show before? It

791
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:09,440
was just oh Aaron from Timeline Earth. Yeah, I mean

792
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:09,960
many times.

793
00:54:10,039 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 1: Hey you don't you're my co host.

794
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:20,559
Speaker 2: That's so awesome. All right, let's get to it. I

795
00:54:20,679 --> 00:54:23,320
asked you on today so that we could talk about

796
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,880
Sam Francis. This is actually the book, the print version

797
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:35,199
of Sam Francis's. Basically it's a review of every James

798
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:38,920
Burnham book. So every book that James Burnham wrote, he

799
00:54:39,119 --> 00:54:43,000
has a he does ten to fifteen pages on it

800
00:54:43,119 --> 00:54:47,880
to explain what it is and what are we looking

801
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:53,400
for today? We're gonna do the Machiavellians nice And I

802
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:56,119
know you read it, and also you said that you

803
00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:00,119
that you thought about when you when you started reading

804
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:04,920
this review, which was what's it called, Crisis of Modernity?

805
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:09,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the Crisis of Adernity Modernity by Augusta del Nocee.

806
00:55:10,039 --> 00:55:13,760
He's an Italian philosopher born in nineteen ten died in

807
00:55:14,119 --> 00:55:18,039
seventy six, I think, and he's just another one of

808
00:55:18,039 --> 00:55:22,519
those people that basically called it well before anybody else

809
00:55:22,599 --> 00:55:29,840
was calling it. He identified the pretty much the flow

810
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:33,920
of history from from liberalism into kind of what we're

811
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:38,719
experiencing right now, which is its logical endpoint, and it

812
00:55:39,199 --> 00:55:43,000
really resonated with me. I've also in preparation for this episode,

813
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:48,000
I also read a lot of Heidegger and I also

814
00:55:48,039 --> 00:55:51,400
went back into, uh, the managerial Revolution, just to get

815
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,440
me into a Burnham mindset.

816
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 2: Cool cool, all right, well, let's get this up on

817
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:00,400
the screen and start reading. I love it, all right,

818
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:04,480
So this is taken from I don't even know what

819
00:56:04,559 --> 00:56:07,880
this text takes it from, because this this text actually

820
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:11,280
I can't find in PDF anywhere. It was never made

821
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:13,840
into a PDAF. I mean maybe if someone has it,

822
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,599
they can send it to me. But I just found

823
00:56:16,639 --> 00:56:20,079
this on archive and it had this section of the

824
00:56:20,079 --> 00:56:24,199
Machiavelians in it. So yeah, let's just go and stop

825
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:29,079
any time. So this is Sam Francis reviewing the Machiavellians

826
00:56:29,119 --> 00:56:32,519
by James Burnham. I think machi Villen's written in forty

827
00:56:32,559 --> 00:56:36,360
one or forty two, a year year after manager or Revolution.

828
00:56:36,639 --> 00:56:41,960
So all right, the managerial revolution has grown out of

829
00:56:42,079 --> 00:56:46,239
Burnham's dispute what Trotsky in the nineteen thirties, and was

830
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:50,840
an answer to Trotsky Stalinist Russia was not a deformed

831
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:54,440
worker estate, but a new kind of society that Marxism

832
00:56:54,519 --> 00:57:00,639
had not anticipated, managerial society. Yet, despite Burnham's political and

833
00:57:00,679 --> 00:57:05,199
intellectual break with Marxism significant fragments of Marxist ideology, I've

834
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:09,039
remained with him and seriously marred his statement of the

835
00:57:09,039 --> 00:57:14,639
theory of the managerial revolution. In The Machiavellians Defenders of Freedom,

836
00:57:15,119 --> 00:57:20,239
Burnham eradicated many of his remaining Marxist preconceptions, formulated a

837
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:24,320
general theory of human political behavior, and restated the theory

838
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:28,840
of the managerial revolution in terms of this theoretical framework.

839
00:57:29,719 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's definitely a uh, not so hidden critique of Marxism.

840
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:39,199
You can definitely tell you he's one hundred percent away

841
00:57:39,199 --> 00:57:41,480
from Marxism right now, even though that's kind of where

842
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:42,039
he started.

843
00:57:42,719 --> 00:57:43,880
Speaker 2: It's good to have you on here if we're going

844
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:47,280
to talk about Marxism, because I think we've we've probably

845
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:49,920
done a bunch of episodes on Marxism together, haven't we.

846
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, a few books, few few readings.

847
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 2: All right. In his first book, which had begun with

848
00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:01,440
a long epigraph from Machiavelli's letter, Burnham had revealed a

849
00:58:01,519 --> 00:58:06,599
scathing contempt for what he called ideology. Although he recognized

850
00:58:06,599 --> 00:58:09,519
the social need for ideologies as set as sets of

851
00:58:09,599 --> 00:58:13,199
beliefs that hold societies together, he had dismissed them as

852
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:17,559
unscientific beliefs that were uncontrolled by facts. Manager of Revolution,

853
00:58:17,639 --> 00:58:22,119
page twenty eighty five. This discrepancy between logic and reality,

854
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:26,280
between the verbalized form and the concrete meeting meaning is

855
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:29,719
one that is a persistent theme in all of Burnham's writings,

856
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:34,960
and one that he explicitly developed in the Machiavellians. Burnham

857
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:37,679
found in Machiavelli and in the four political theorists of

858
00:58:37,719 --> 00:58:41,320
the twentieth century, whom he described as Machiavellians, the foundations

859
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:45,880
of a realistic method of social and political analysis. Contrasting

860
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:51,159
the theological and metaphysical political philosophy of Dante Allegaris in

861
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:57,800
Demonarchia with the historically and empirically grounded approach of Machiavelli.

862
00:58:58,119 --> 00:59:02,079
Burnham developed a fundamental distace between the formal and the

863
00:59:02,119 --> 00:59:06,239
real meaning of a statement. The formal meaning of a

864
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:10,519
statement is the meaning which is explicitly stated, but which

865
00:59:10,599 --> 00:59:14,480
serves to express in an indirect and disguised manner what

866
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:16,559
may be called the real meaning.

867
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:23,159
Speaker 1: Some it's an interesting metaphysical development. I love it.

868
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:25,920
Speaker 2: This is quoting, but.

869
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:28,920
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, keep going.

870
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:33,119
Speaker 2: Quoting By real meaning, I refer to meaning not in

871
00:59:33,199 --> 00:59:37,440
terms of the fictional world of religion, metaphysics, miracles, and pseudohistory,

872
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:40,639
but in terms of the actual world of space, time

873
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:41,920
and events.

874
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, metaphysics is like the lens in which

875
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:49,599
we view reality and truth. So I don't know, Like,

876
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:53,599
just the managerial Revolution is something I really got into

877
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:57,199
of Burnham's and uh I was about seventy five percent

878
00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:00,000
satisfied with it, and not just because it's a little outdated.

879
01:00:00,039 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, no, that's what most people think. Most people

880
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:06,800
say that it's a great book, but a lot of

881
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:10,679
people complain, well, he didn't get his predictions correct and everything.

882
01:00:10,679 --> 01:00:14,000
It's like, well, I mean, yeah, you're in the middle

883
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:19,000
a war had just started. It's kind of hard. Yeah.

884
01:00:19,039 --> 01:00:19,239
Speaker 1: Yeah.

885
01:00:21,559 --> 01:00:25,599
Speaker 2: The real meaning, then, is the empirically discoverable and verifiable meaning,

886
01:00:25,719 --> 01:00:28,679
the only meaning that has value for expressing the truth.

887
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:33,199
In Machiavelli, Burnham argued there is no distinction between the

888
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:37,599
formal and real meanings because Machiavelli explicitly stated his goals

889
01:00:37,639 --> 01:00:40,840
and meaning, did not attempt to disguise them, and took

890
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:44,360
pains to verify them empirically and to make them clear.

891
01:00:46,199 --> 01:00:49,840
Whether this is an accurate presentation of Machiavelli or not

892
01:00:50,079 --> 01:00:53,760
is not particularly important to the political theory that Burnham developed.

893
01:00:54,239 --> 01:00:57,079
His purpose was not to write a learned treatise on

894
01:00:57,199 --> 01:01:01,119
Renaissance history and philosophy, but to allow rate on empirically

895
01:01:01,199 --> 01:01:05,920
sound method of analyzing human political affairs. The tradition of

896
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:10,559
political thought by Burnham labeled machiavellian did indeed derive many

897
01:01:10,639 --> 01:01:14,199
of its ideas from the sixteenth century Florentine But whether

898
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:18,239
this was an accurate derivation and whether Machiavelli himself would

899
01:01:18,239 --> 01:01:22,719
have endorsed Machiavellianism are separate and secondary questions.

900
01:01:23,199 --> 01:01:29,079
Speaker 1: I've heard that critique before. Would Machiavelli have agreed with Burnham?

901
01:01:29,119 --> 01:01:34,000
And uh? I don't know enough about Machiavelli the actual

902
01:01:34,039 --> 01:01:37,480
person to say whether or not he would, But I

903
01:01:37,519 --> 01:01:40,679
do know that you know he he did see the

904
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:45,199
usefulness and in veiling your agenda.

905
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:50,599
Speaker 2: The four thinkers whom Burnham discussed in detail in The

906
01:01:50,639 --> 01:01:57,400
Machiavellians were George Sorel, Robert Michel's, Gezano Mosca, and Vilfredo Pereto.

907
01:01:57,639 --> 01:02:00,440
To at least some extent, all four saw them sells

908
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:04,000
as the errors of Machiavelli. Like him, they were all

909
01:02:04,039 --> 01:02:07,440
concerned with the problems of political power, not with how

910
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:11,119
to justify power. Nor with the external forms and appearances

911
01:02:11,159 --> 01:02:15,000
of power, but with how men actually use, pursue, attain,

912
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:20,679
and lose power. Like Machiavelli, all four were profoundly conscious

913
01:02:20,679 --> 01:02:24,159
of the radical discrepancies between the formal disguises of power

914
01:02:24,199 --> 01:02:28,679
in rhetoric, ideology, and institutions and the terrible realities of

915
01:02:28,719 --> 01:02:32,920
power in the actual history of men. It's something that

916
01:02:34,239 --> 01:02:39,480
I can't stress enough is that people can talk about

917
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:44,119
their ideology, their political ideology all they want, but when

918
01:02:44,159 --> 01:02:48,159
it comes down to ruling. And there's a great quote

919
01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:53,239
from Francis in the book in the review of Suicide

920
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:58,440
of the West, where he says, ideology never makes It

921
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:02,159
never exists in reality because it's formed in a vacuum

922
01:03:02,199 --> 01:03:05,639
outside of reality. So basically, once it's introduced to reality,

923
01:03:06,039 --> 01:03:08,400
it just gets punched in the you know, it gets

924
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:10,960
punched in the mouth and everything goes out the window.

925
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:17,119
Speaker 1: No, it's a it's a transcendent end goal to point

926
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:23,760
to channel revolutionary or reformist energy into UH, into a

927
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:27,559
transcendent goal. That's all. That's all ideology is. It's UH.

928
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:29,880
Like like you said, it doesn't exist in reality, is

929
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:30,880
purely metaphysical.

930
01:03:31,599 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, and another thing that he that Francis says in

931
01:03:36,199 --> 01:03:39,000
the review of Pseudo Suicide of the West is that

932
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:44,360
basically ideology is there for the masses. They need to

933
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:51,760
concentrate on something while the Machiavelians are actually ruling. Yes,

934
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:54,119
so he gives them something to feel good about. It

935
01:03:54,159 --> 01:03:57,840
gives them an identity. You know, something that I've been

936
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:00,519
talking about on the timeline a lot today is how

937
01:04:00,679 --> 01:04:05,800
people make their political h their political ideology, their identity.

938
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:08,199
So he gives them something to feel good about. But

939
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:11,400
then they wonder their whole lives. How come what? You know,

940
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:14,159
this guy was talking about my ideology when he was

941
01:04:14,239 --> 01:04:16,199
run when he was running for office, and then he

942
01:04:16,239 --> 01:04:19,440
gets into office and my ideology doesn't materialize. Why.

943
01:04:20,519 --> 01:04:24,719
Speaker 1: Well, A really useful tidbit that I got from Burnham

944
01:04:24,719 --> 01:04:28,800
from the Managerial Revolution is that, uh, you know, in

945
01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:32,159
order for an ideology to become dominant, people at the

946
01:04:32,199 --> 01:04:34,280
masses have to be willing to die for it. And

947
01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:37,920
that's kind of how you know that capitalism or liberalism

948
01:04:38,559 --> 01:04:42,599
or even socialism slash Marxism will not be the dominant

949
01:04:42,599 --> 01:04:46,719
ideology any at any point in time, because it's been

950
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:48,920
a while since people were willing to die for it

951
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:52,719
or willing to kill for it, even at least not

952
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:55,519
in mass, not any not in any great extent. But

953
01:04:56,519 --> 01:04:58,599
you know, that's that's kind of the lens that I

954
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:03,440
view acceleration trying to predict accelerationism from, is what are

955
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:06,039
some things that are pop that are popping up now

956
01:05:06,599 --> 01:05:11,159
that maybe might be inspirational enough to for people to

957
01:05:11,239 --> 01:05:17,960
kill or die for. Well, well, but sure, the Machiavelians

958
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:21,639
are are definitely willing to die for it, or at

959
01:05:21,719 --> 01:05:26,920
least try to send people to die for. But yeah, nowadays.

960
01:05:26,679 --> 01:05:29,760
Speaker 2: I'm talking about israeliself. You know what we've seen since

961
01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:30,719
October seventh.

962
01:05:31,079 --> 01:05:32,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, willing to kill for it absolutely.

963
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:34,519
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't think they're willing to die for it.

964
01:05:34,599 --> 01:05:37,360
I think they're definitely willing to drop bombs for it. Yeah,

965
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:39,440
but it seems like the Huthis are willing to die

966
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:39,679
for what?

967
01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:46,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, I mean any any sect of islam Is

968
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:50,519
you can usually find some flowers in there to pluck.

969
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:56,480
Speaker 2: Thirdly, like Machiavelli, they believe that through the observation and

970
01:05:56,519 --> 01:05:59,480
study of the history of power relationships, a set of

971
01:05:59,519 --> 01:06:03,920
generalists about power and men's usage of it could be formulated.

972
01:06:04,159 --> 01:06:08,400
In other words, that historically grounded science of power, not

973
01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:13,480
a philosophy or ethical theory, was possible. That's why whenever

974
01:06:14,719 --> 01:06:17,239
you have these libertarians I was dealing with today on

975
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:20,719
the timeline, who are like, oh, so so you believe

976
01:06:20,719 --> 01:06:22,880
in an imaginary line and you don't want people to

977
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:25,440
cross it. Why do you love violence? Because I do?

978
01:06:27,639 --> 01:06:27,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

979
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:31,880
Speaker 2: I mean it's like and then I realized when they

980
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:35,079
were when people are making that asking that question, why

981
01:06:35,079 --> 01:06:38,360
do you have a problem with this? It's very feminine.

982
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:43,920
It's it's long. It's like literally long housing. It's like

983
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:47,480
they've they've been completely long, long housed, and it's created

984
01:06:47,599 --> 01:06:48,960
their ideology and they're.

985
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:55,039
Speaker 1: Questioning, Well, since the twenties, we've kind of since we

986
01:06:55,119 --> 01:07:00,280
started getting into psychoanalysis like Freud and all that. You know,

987
01:07:00,519 --> 01:07:05,679
have you noticed that everything is positive as a psychoanalytical diagnosis?

988
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:09,599
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, Why are you It's it's always it's never

989
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:12,400
about are you doing this for?

990
01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:13,079
Speaker 1: You know?

991
01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:15,960
Speaker 2: Did you do this to acquire land? Did you go

992
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:18,400
to war to acquire land? Did you go to war

993
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:21,800
to do this? It's always what's wrong with you? Why

994
01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:22,760
would they do this?

995
01:07:23,639 --> 01:07:26,679
Speaker 1: Yeah? Even like in the UH, even like the etymology

996
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:29,840
of words like transphobe that sounds like a mental illness

997
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:32,480
that you know, eighty years ago would have got you

998
01:07:32,519 --> 01:07:37,000
put in put into an asylum. And that's where we're

999
01:07:37,079 --> 01:07:40,440
still looking at that today. That's still the norm today

1000
01:07:40,519 --> 01:07:45,480
is everything is psychoanalytical, everything is scientific, and uh, you know,

1001
01:07:45,519 --> 01:07:47,800
when you when you talk about good and evil to

1002
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:51,800
a leftist or a really committed liberal, it's not that

1003
01:07:51,880 --> 01:07:54,679
they don't believe in it, it's just that that exists

1004
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:58,679
outside of their metaphysics. And because they don't believe that

1005
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:00,559
this is something I learned from denote or this isn't

1006
01:08:00,719 --> 01:08:02,920
believe it, believe it or not, this isn't an original

1007
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:07,840
thought I had, But they don't. They don't have in

1008
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:12,719
their metaphysics anything that exists outside of science or psychoanalysis.

1009
01:08:12,719 --> 01:08:15,280
So when you talk about good and evil or uh,

1010
01:08:15,559 --> 01:08:18,239
you know, these these things that we always have understood,

1011
01:08:18,279 --> 01:08:22,600
we we white people have always understood as universal metaphysics

1012
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:24,920
that you and I can engage in a conversation and

1013
01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:28,119
be reasonably assured that you know, we're gonna we're gonna

1014
01:08:28,119 --> 01:08:31,359
abide within a certain framework. That's completely out the window

1015
01:08:31,399 --> 01:08:34,720
with them, because they just it doesn't compute. They're like,

1016
01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:36,720
why are you talking about that? Why are you asking

1017
01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:37,279
that question?

1018
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:40,520
Speaker 2: It's it's like you by asking the question, you have

1019
01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:43,880
a mental illness. You're There's just nothing you can say,

1020
01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:47,239
isn't it isn't problematic?

1021
01:08:48,239 --> 01:08:51,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it either list it's a confusion or a disgust response,

1022
01:08:52,159 --> 01:08:54,520
which you know we kind of get from them too. So,

1023
01:08:55,199 --> 01:08:56,439
all things being equal.

1024
01:08:56,800 --> 01:09:01,319
Speaker 2: I was noticing, you know, Stone Toss got doxed yep,

1025
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:06,159
and when I saw there are people openly celebrating it

1026
01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:09,760
on Twitter, and I'm like, this is the most feminine

1027
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:10,600
thing I've ever seen.

1028
01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:19,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yas queen. Yeah, a ninety nine post thread.

1029
01:09:20,399 --> 01:09:24,319
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I saw that. Could you imagine taking it?

1030
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:27,279
Speaker 1: I can't wait till he does a comic about it. Yeah,

1031
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:27,920
all right.

1032
01:09:28,479 --> 01:09:31,439
Speaker 2: Behind these common beliefs was a body of common assumptions

1033
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:34,600
about the nature of political man and human history. The

1034
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:39,319
Machiavelians saw political life as constantly in flux, so the

1035
01:09:39,399 --> 01:09:45,319
process of change is repetitive and roughly cyclical, quoting the

1036
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:49,279
recurring pattern of change expresses the more or less permanent

1037
01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:54,159
core of human nature as it functions politically. The instability

1038
01:09:54,199 --> 01:09:58,079
of all governments and political forms follows in part from

1039
01:09:58,119 --> 01:10:04,520
the timeless human appetite for power. Really need to make

1040
01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:07,439
my after teal, I really need to read Disquisition on

1041
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:10,640
Government by John C. Calhoun because he talks so much

1042
01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:11,640
about stuff like this.

1043
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:12,720
Speaker 1: HM.

1044
01:10:14,359 --> 01:10:17,279
Speaker 2: Because of the recurrent patterns of change, history moves in

1045
01:10:17,359 --> 01:10:23,479
cycles and is not a uni linear progression. The repetitive

1046
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:27,760
cycles make possible a science of human political behavior. What

1047
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:30,239
men have done before, they will do again in the

1048
01:10:30,279 --> 01:10:33,439
future and within the limits. It is therefore possible to

1049
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:37,199
predict their behavior through analogies drawn from history.

1050
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:41,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, unless you believe in like that we

1051
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:43,479
exist in post history.

1052
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:50,039
Speaker 2: Machiavelli and his followers saw men in general as evil quote,

1053
01:10:50,079 --> 01:10:53,439
all men are bad and ever ready to display their

1054
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:57,399
vicious nature whenever they may find occasion for it. The

1055
01:10:57,439 --> 01:11:01,279
Machiavelians depicted human beings as in satiable in their desire

1056
01:11:01,319 --> 01:11:06,439
for power, wealth and pre eminence, but also as irrational, prejudice, ignorant,

1057
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:10,079
and easily deceived by others as well as by themselves.

1058
01:11:11,199 --> 01:11:12,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1059
01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:19,600
Speaker 2: Mosca specifically criticized and rejected the optimistic progressivism as of Rousseau.

1060
01:11:20,119 --> 01:11:26,079
It reminds me of who is it Spangler or optimism

1061
01:11:26,199 --> 01:11:27,560
is cowardice.

1062
01:11:28,640 --> 01:11:30,479
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1063
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:36,199
Speaker 2: Peretto devoted much of the six volume six volumes, Six volumes.

1064
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:39,399
Parretto devoted much of the six volumes of the Mind

1065
01:11:39,439 --> 01:11:45,199
in Society to exposing human irrationality and appetitive motivations.

1066
01:11:46,319 --> 01:11:48,119
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie to you. I've tried to read

1067
01:11:48,199 --> 01:11:50,239
original works by Pareto and I could not.

1068
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:52,199
Speaker 2: He's really tough to read.

1069
01:11:52,319 --> 01:11:52,520
Speaker 1: Man.

1070
01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:56,479
Speaker 2: I have the I have a couple books, a couple

1071
01:11:56,520 --> 01:11:59,279
of smaller books on the elites, and man, it's it's

1072
01:11:59,279 --> 01:12:00,399
a slogsome times.

1073
01:12:01,119 --> 01:12:03,479
Speaker 1: No, you just it's like he introduces a bunch of

1074
01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:07,000
mathematical concepts and I can't. I can't do it. I

1075
01:12:07,039 --> 01:12:09,319
can't follow that. I'm not that smart. Sorry.

1076
01:12:10,960 --> 01:12:14,760
Speaker 2: Sorell explicated the role of myths and falsehoods in providing

1077
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:19,800
a unifying force for political action, especially violent action. Michelle's

1078
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:23,600
throughout his work on political parties, showed how minorities continually

1079
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:29,479
monopolized power by deceiving and coercing the mass membership. Yep,

1080
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:34,319
A lot to be said about that right there. The

1081
01:12:34,359 --> 01:12:37,600
emphasis on human evil and irrationality is central to the

1082
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:42,319
Machiavelian argument Burnham and the Machiavelians saw politics and to

1083
01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:45,359
a large extent, of human condition in terms of the

1084
01:12:45,399 --> 01:12:49,079
savage and incessant struggle for power at all levels of society,

1085
01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:52,600
regardless of how this struggle might be disguised by language,

1086
01:12:52,800 --> 01:12:55,560
symbolism and institutional forms.

1087
01:12:56,159 --> 01:13:00,680
Speaker 1: And see this is where I think Burna kind of

1088
01:13:01,159 --> 01:13:03,760
retained a little bit of his Marxism, or at least

1089
01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:09,960
his Hygelianism. Is you know, when you're talking about what

1090
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:12,520
does that say, regardless of all of this struggle might

1091
01:13:12,560 --> 01:13:16,079
be disguised by language, symbolism and institutional forms. I don't

1092
01:13:16,239 --> 01:13:23,039
think that Burnham took too much, didn't give enough account

1093
01:13:23,159 --> 01:13:27,800
for things that exist outside the dialectic, when, especially in

1094
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:32,039
his critique of socialism, it was still very scientific, and

1095
01:13:32,079 --> 01:13:35,399
it was still very focused on you know, material and

1096
01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:42,359
economic uh economic dialectic struggles just not not resolving in

1097
01:13:42,399 --> 01:13:44,800
a way that Marxist prescribed it would, you know, with

1098
01:13:44,840 --> 01:13:48,880
dialectical materialism. But another thing I learned from Denotie is

1099
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:52,600
that they really didn't give any attention to the more

1100
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:56,279
abstract things like you know what what he just mentioned,

1101
01:13:57,720 --> 01:14:02,079
you know, language symbolism, institutional forms, aulture, religion, and just

1102
01:14:02,279 --> 01:14:06,399
things that exist outside of you know, empirical science.

1103
01:14:07,439 --> 01:14:12,159
Speaker 2: There's other ideologies that we may be, another ideology we

1104
01:14:12,199 --> 01:14:14,880
may be familiar with who fails to do the same thing.

1105
01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:19,199
Speaker 1: I assume, yeah, yeah, I mean it's there's I hate

1106
01:14:19,239 --> 01:14:21,720
to say, I hate using this word, but it's nuanced,

1107
01:14:23,920 --> 01:14:25,359
which doesn't really say anything.

1108
01:14:26,439 --> 01:14:30,560
Speaker 2: Driven by insatiable app insatiable appetites and irrational beliefs, men

1109
01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:34,319
seek to dominate each other or to escape domination by others.

1110
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:38,039
This struggle invariably results in a minority coming to power,

1111
01:14:38,239 --> 01:14:44,199
monopolizing as much as possible political, economic, military, technical, and

1112
01:14:44,279 --> 01:14:49,359
honorific resources, and excluding and oppressing the majority. Thus is

1113
01:14:49,439 --> 01:14:54,920
formed an elite peretto ruling class mosca or oligarchy Michelle's

1114
01:14:55,239 --> 01:14:58,119
that rules the majority and exploits it for its own

1115
01:14:58,199 --> 01:15:02,760
benefit through force and odd The rule of elites and

1116
01:15:02,840 --> 01:15:06,800
human societies is inevitable, and therefore oligarchy is the only

1117
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:11,640
possible distribution of power. What what Michelle's called the iron

1118
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:13,000
law of oligarchy.

1119
01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:17,399
Speaker 1: I mean, if you had asked me if I agree

1120
01:15:17,399 --> 01:15:20,159
with that five ten years or yeah, ten years ago,

1121
01:15:20,279 --> 01:15:22,960
now I would have would have called you a statist.

1122
01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:29,159
Speaker 2: Now you just you become a realist and then in

1123
01:15:29,199 --> 01:15:32,000
the eyes of some that means that you're immoral.

1124
01:15:32,840 --> 01:15:36,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, this is this is scientific. It is

1125
01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:39,920
it is. It is an observable fact that power is

1126
01:15:39,960 --> 01:15:44,960
always concentrated and select few individuals, and they're not very

1127
01:15:45,039 --> 01:15:45,640
nice people.

1128
01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:49,600
Speaker 2: We know science, they're not They're not libertarians. We know

1129
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:53,720
science is racist. So yeah, there is no end to

1130
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:57,479
oligarchical rule. Although one elite may lose its power in

1131
01:15:58,159 --> 01:16:02,079
power indeed always is its power, sooner or later another

1132
01:16:02,159 --> 01:16:05,439
minority takes its place through what Pereto calls the circulation

1133
01:16:05,560 --> 01:16:08,600
of elites, and the record of this unending rise and

1134
01:16:08,680 --> 01:16:12,319
fall of ruling minorities in human is human history.

1135
01:16:13,279 --> 01:16:15,800
Speaker 1: So one thing I wanted to pick your brain on

1136
01:16:15,880 --> 01:16:20,000
having listened to your episode with uh Catgirl Kulak today,

1137
01:16:20,279 --> 01:16:23,000
is I wanted I wanted to ask you what do

1138
01:16:23,079 --> 01:16:27,399
you what do you suspect will be the circulation of elites?

1139
01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:32,680
If if, or when his his predictions of a full

1140
01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:35,479
on collapse by twenty thirty, what what does that circulation

1141
01:16:35,520 --> 01:16:36,560
of elites look like?

1142
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:43,800
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it It may break down regionally.

1143
01:16:45,079 --> 01:16:47,720
You may have new elites stepping up, or you know,

1144
01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:54,319
most of the time, it's it's existing release elites. You

1145
01:16:54,399 --> 01:16:56,960
just they just you know, it's like people have said,

1146
01:16:57,840 --> 01:17:01,239
because we've been talking about the PayPal mafia and how

1147
01:17:01,640 --> 01:17:04,279
you know, we see them as trying to make a

1148
01:17:04,319 --> 01:17:08,279
move right now and push the elites out and take over.

1149
01:17:08,960 --> 01:17:11,800
And you know, someone made the comment, well, they're already

1150
01:17:11,840 --> 01:17:14,920
a part of the elites, you know, t Loans, Palins here,

1151
01:17:15,239 --> 01:17:19,279
all these countries. But I think Aaron McIntyre made a

1152
01:17:19,279 --> 01:17:22,399
really good point today. He said the elites always come

1153
01:17:22,479 --> 01:17:26,399
from within. I mean Caesar wasn't. Caesar wasn't an outsider.

1154
01:17:28,039 --> 01:17:28,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.

1155
01:17:30,640 --> 01:17:32,840
Speaker 2: Pin o Ch. You know when you have when you

1156
01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:35,640
have radical change. You know p o Ch was not

1157
01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:39,399
I mean he didn't come in from another country. He

1158
01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:42,479
was in the military. He was somebody that everyone knew.

1159
01:17:43,319 --> 01:17:46,439
The circulation of elites always happens from the inside. So

1160
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:49,119
if you're thinking that your neighbor, you know, is going

1161
01:17:49,199 --> 01:17:50,840
to be an elite, unless you write, you know, do

1162
01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:54,279
like Kappa the teachers, and you do it locally and

1163
01:17:54,319 --> 01:17:57,279
you you know, find a natural elite and you raise

1164
01:17:57,399 --> 01:18:00,199
them up to you know, take over and help to

1165
01:18:00,640 --> 01:18:06,920
change a locale. Then you'll know that this person is

1166
01:18:06,960 --> 01:18:11,640
coming in from outside. But I mean at the national level,

1167
01:18:11,680 --> 01:18:16,680
at a government level, at a oligarchical level, it's always

1168
01:18:16,680 --> 01:18:19,039
going to be from the existing elites. They're just going

1169
01:18:19,119 --> 01:18:21,359
to move in and they're just going to switch them out,

1170
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:24,560
and you're just going to hope that it's going to

1171
01:18:24,640 --> 01:18:26,800
be they're going to be more in your favor than

1172
01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:30,000
the previous elites. But if everything does fall apart at

1173
01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:35,359
twenty thirty, I mean, all I see is people will

1174
01:18:35,399 --> 01:18:39,600
be begging for anybody. And I think that the person,

1175
01:18:40,520 --> 01:18:46,239
you know, whoever has set themselves up with the most

1176
01:18:46,840 --> 01:18:51,000
with a rhetoric of we're Americans, we should be proud

1177
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:54,119
of our heritage. We can take our heritage back. We

1178
01:18:54,159 --> 01:18:55,880
don't have to put up with it, we don't have

1179
01:18:55,920 --> 01:18:58,880
to put up with us. I think that is that's

1180
01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:04,920
the person who is more going to be to circulate

1181
01:19:05,359 --> 01:19:08,560
in and out, and who's somebody who they may potentially

1182
01:19:08,800 --> 01:19:12,079
look to in order to try to get them out

1183
01:19:12,119 --> 01:19:12,840
of that situation.

1184
01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:17,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the reason why this would be so unprecedented,

1185
01:19:18,079 --> 01:19:21,119
if I mean, one of the reasons why the main

1186
01:19:21,159 --> 01:19:23,399
reason I think about is when I think of a collapse,

1187
01:19:23,439 --> 01:19:25,800
I think and I think of a power vacuum, and

1188
01:19:25,840 --> 01:19:28,159
who fills that power vacuum. It's whoever has the most

1189
01:19:28,159 --> 01:19:31,119
hard power and whoever has the most energy behind them.

1190
01:19:31,359 --> 01:19:35,880
And right now, well, you know if theoretically a few

1191
01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:39,159
years before collapse, there's a lot of energy stored right

1192
01:19:39,199 --> 01:19:42,039
now and it's just waiting to burst. So if his

1193
01:19:42,159 --> 01:19:45,239
prediction is correct, man, that's going to be crazy, because

1194
01:19:45,800 --> 01:19:48,199
I think people right now are just you know, the

1195
01:19:48,239 --> 01:19:50,199
only thing stopping them right now is you know, they

1196
01:19:50,199 --> 01:19:52,279
have a job, they get to you know, they have

1197
01:19:52,319 --> 01:19:55,800
a family. They may not have access to a whole

1198
01:19:55,800 --> 01:20:01,359
lot of hard power. But man, like, wouldn't that be

1199
01:20:01,600 --> 01:20:06,399
just uh, his historically unprecedented collapse.

1200
01:20:07,039 --> 01:20:11,199
Speaker 2: Well, you know, Charles Haywood believes that with the way

1201
01:20:11,239 --> 01:20:14,720
the regime is attacking Elon Musk, He said at the

1202
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:17,560
end of a recent podcast he did that he thought

1203
01:20:17,600 --> 01:20:22,520
that Elon Musk may turn to basically creating his own

1204
01:20:22,520 --> 01:20:26,199
private security force, which would be his own his own

1205
01:20:26,239 --> 01:20:26,880
private army.

1206
01:20:27,720 --> 01:20:30,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, but then again, like this is a fine, this

1207
01:20:30,159 --> 01:20:33,560
would be uh. The the match point would be a

1208
01:20:33,600 --> 01:20:37,199
financial collapse, which implies that the dollar doesn't really have

1209
01:20:37,239 --> 01:20:40,800
any value anymore. So now it just becomes like you know,

1210
01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:44,039
depending on how hard it is a barter system, who

1211
01:20:44,079 --> 01:20:46,359
has the most assets to barter, who has the most

1212
01:20:46,479 --> 01:20:47,600
who has the most trade.

1213
01:20:47,640 --> 01:20:51,600
Speaker 2: Well, here's the thing is the people who are going

1214
01:20:51,680 --> 01:20:55,439
to rule, the people who would roull after a after

1215
01:20:55,479 --> 01:20:57,640
a collapse, or the people who've already been planning for

1216
01:20:57,680 --> 01:20:58,279
the collapse.

1217
01:20:58,800 --> 01:20:59,199
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

1218
01:20:59,439 --> 01:21:06,000
Speaker 2: And I would assume that there are people already in

1219
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:10,479
in elite positions who have already have an idea of

1220
01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:13,239
what a new currency would look like and things like that.

1221
01:21:13,439 --> 01:21:14,560
So I mean, I think that's.

1222
01:21:14,479 --> 01:21:17,840
Speaker 1: Where it goes well for us. No, No, not at

1223
01:21:17,840 --> 01:21:19,560
all for my suburban asks.

1224
01:21:21,439 --> 01:21:25,600
Speaker 2: All right, these conclusions are bleak, and the Machiavelians saw

1225
01:21:25,640 --> 01:21:30,119
little ground for hope of democratic emancipation. Modern democracy they

1226
01:21:30,159 --> 01:21:33,439
interpreted as a special kind of disguised oligarchy based on

1227
01:21:33,520 --> 01:21:37,439
commercial and industrial power, and not fundamentally different from early

1228
01:21:37,560 --> 01:21:43,159
kinds of elitism. Mosca and Pareto in particular, saw socialism

1229
01:21:43,239 --> 01:21:46,079
as no more than an illusion that threatened to subordinate

1230
01:21:46,159 --> 01:21:48,560
all of society to an elite based on the power

1231
01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:53,279
of the state. To Michelle's, oligarchy was an inherent part

1232
01:21:53,319 --> 01:21:58,000
of social and political organization, a doctrine that was most

1233
01:21:58,000 --> 01:22:01,000
common to most of the Machiavelians, in which Burnham emphasized

1234
01:22:01,119 --> 01:22:04,159
was the concept of what Moscaw called the political formula,

1235
01:22:04,760 --> 01:22:12,279
Pereto called derivations, and surrel called myths. According to these writers,

1236
01:22:12,479 --> 01:22:16,479
elites do not hold power simply through force and intimidation.

1237
01:22:17,039 --> 01:22:22,560
They formulate doctrines that rationalize or justify their control in logical, moral, theological,

1238
01:22:22,840 --> 01:22:29,399
or philosophical terms. These doctrines, political formulas, derivations, or myths,

1239
01:22:29,600 --> 01:22:34,279
or as Burnham called them in the Managerial Revolution, ideologies

1240
01:22:34,840 --> 01:22:39,560
act as social and politically integrative forces, and are often

1241
01:22:39,640 --> 01:22:45,199
quite sophisticated and complex in their structures. Most members of

1242
01:22:45,199 --> 01:22:48,840
a society of a society, elites as well as non elites,

1243
01:22:49,119 --> 01:22:54,840
believe them and to at least some extent, take them seriously. Nevertheless,

1244
01:22:55,199 --> 01:22:58,359
I think less and less, don't you agree? Don't you

1245
01:22:58,399 --> 01:23:02,439
think people? I would say elites more so than any

1246
01:23:02,680 --> 01:23:05,079
But I think more and more people even just walking

1247
01:23:05,119 --> 01:23:08,560
around basically or just at the at the end of

1248
01:23:08,560 --> 01:23:10,960
their rope, where they're just when it comes to ideologies

1249
01:23:11,000 --> 01:23:13,319
and they're just like, I'm just got to take care

1250
01:23:13,359 --> 01:23:13,880
of myself.

1251
01:23:15,079 --> 01:23:21,159
Speaker 1: I think what separates maybe our our side from the

1252
01:23:21,239 --> 01:23:24,239
normies and from the other side, is that, Uh, we

1253
01:23:24,279 --> 01:23:26,680
don't view ideology as an ends. We view it as

1254
01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:31,359
a means. And uh that's that. I don't know, I

1255
01:23:31,399 --> 01:23:33,560
got nothing else on that, but yeah, that's pretty much

1256
01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:35,960
that's it. It's a mean, it's a means to it.

1257
01:23:36,279 --> 01:23:38,840
It's a means to an end, you know, pointing, pointing

1258
01:23:38,840 --> 01:23:43,600
the masses in a direction, propaganda, you know, channeling energy

1259
01:23:44,159 --> 01:23:47,840
towards a certain outcome. That's that's all. Going towards a

1260
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:50,279
means to a desirable end that we would like or

1261
01:23:50,319 --> 01:23:53,000
we hope happens, or we hope to get somebody in

1262
01:23:53,039 --> 01:23:55,199
there that can make it happen, you know, if they

1263
01:23:55,239 --> 01:23:59,720
happened to if it happens to be of a particular ideology, like,

1264
01:23:59,760 --> 01:24:02,960
it's really of no consequence to us. Now, call it

1265
01:24:03,079 --> 01:24:08,079
Christian nationalism, call it fucking white nationalism, ethne whatever, like,

1266
01:24:08,199 --> 01:24:11,960
as long as most of our desired ends are going

1267
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:13,960
to be fulfilled, Like we know that, we don't have

1268
01:24:14,000 --> 01:24:14,920
the luxury to pick and.

1269
01:24:14,960 --> 01:24:19,279
Speaker 2: Choose most members of a society's elites as well as

1270
01:24:19,319 --> 01:24:23,520
non elites, I believe them. Nevertheless, despite their sophistication and

1271
01:24:23,640 --> 01:24:26,680
large number of adherents. These ideologies are not to be

1272
01:24:26,760 --> 01:24:30,720
regarded as scientific in purpose or content. Their purpose is

1273
01:24:30,760 --> 01:24:33,439
not to express or explain reality in a way that

1274
01:24:33,479 --> 01:24:37,000
can be proved or disproved, but to provide a rationalization

1275
01:24:37,119 --> 01:24:41,359
for the existence and power of the dominant minority. The

1276
01:24:41,439 --> 01:24:45,600
fact that ideologies are not scientific, and that those who

1277
01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:49,199
believe in them do so for non rational reasons means

1278
01:24:49,199 --> 01:24:52,680
that it is useless to criticize ideologies in terms of

1279
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:56,920
verifiable facts or logic. All you have to do is

1280
01:24:57,079 --> 01:24:58,640
just make fun of them.

1281
01:24:59,319 --> 01:25:04,439
Speaker 1: Mock them, yes, dehumanize other eyes, whatever you want to

1282
01:25:04,479 --> 01:25:07,199
call it, I do it. Yeah.

1283
01:25:07,600 --> 01:25:11,399
Speaker 2: Ideology is impervious to such criticism because belief in it

1284
01:25:11,439 --> 01:25:14,680
is dependent on non rational factors such as self interest

1285
01:25:15,039 --> 01:25:19,960
or emotion. The fact that an elite itself usually believes

1286
01:25:20,279 --> 01:25:23,159
in most or all of its own ideology also means

1287
01:25:23,159 --> 01:25:26,039
that no elite can be entirely scientific in its own

1288
01:25:26,079 --> 01:25:30,439
thinking and behavior. Any elite must always, to some extent,

1289
01:25:30,760 --> 01:25:35,039
be the victim of its own myths. Burnham argued that

1290
01:25:35,039 --> 01:25:39,479
the Machiabelians the Machiavelian science of power could provide a

1291
01:25:39,600 --> 01:25:43,079
non ideological framework for an elite, but he was highly

1292
01:25:43,119 --> 01:25:47,199
skeptical that any elite could for long make successful use

1293
01:25:47,239 --> 01:25:48,039
of this science.

1294
01:25:50,199 --> 01:25:52,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, good on his part, because I mean, when you

1295
01:25:52,960 --> 01:25:56,840
think of any great man that ever arose, it's exactly

1296
01:25:56,840 --> 01:25:59,600
what it said. They talk the talk as far as

1297
01:25:59,680 --> 01:26:02,359
ideolology goes. They may have even believed some of it.

1298
01:26:02,399 --> 01:26:05,560
But uh, you'll take any great man and none of

1299
01:26:05,600 --> 01:26:08,800
them were pure, purely ideological in practice.

1300
01:26:08,880 --> 01:26:10,960
Speaker 2: Well, well, think about this, and I know people are

1301
01:26:11,000 --> 01:26:14,720
probably sick of me bringing him up, but Bouck Kelly.

1302
01:26:15,840 --> 01:26:17,960
I only know two things about bout Kelly. I know

1303
01:26:18,119 --> 01:26:21,720
that he hates crime and crack down on it. And

1304
01:26:21,760 --> 01:26:25,000
he likes bitcoin. Yeah, that's the only I mean.

1305
01:26:25,279 --> 01:26:29,039
Speaker 1: I know that he ideology, which is no great.

1306
01:26:28,960 --> 01:26:31,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he doesn't. I don't know that he has

1307
01:26:31,359 --> 01:26:34,079
an ideology. He first ran for president in a far

1308
01:26:34,199 --> 01:26:36,880
left party, he got kicked out of that had to go,

1309
01:26:36,920 --> 01:26:41,439
I mean, bounced all around, you know it. All all

1310
01:26:41,479 --> 01:26:45,239
I can judge him on is what he's done. Yeah,

1311
01:26:45,359 --> 01:26:48,199
you know, I mean he's kissed the wall. Yes, his

1312
01:26:48,199 --> 01:26:51,000
his wife has some sephardic in her. Yes, Yeah, I

1313
01:26:51,039 --> 01:26:54,159
know that that's that That means that you're just waiting

1314
01:26:54,199 --> 01:26:56,960
for the other shoe to drop. He's going to disappoint

1315
01:26:57,000 --> 01:26:59,760
you because he did that. All I can judge him

1316
01:26:59,760 --> 01:27:01,760
on is what he's done so far, and everything he's

1317
01:27:01,800 --> 01:27:03,439
done so far looks pretty damn good to me.

1318
01:27:04,640 --> 01:27:07,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't. We don't have the luxury of having

1319
01:27:07,840 --> 01:27:13,800
the expectation of even a somewhat pure great man that

1320
01:27:13,960 --> 01:27:16,800
comes and you know, sweeps, sweeps whatever this is away.

1321
01:27:17,199 --> 01:27:20,119
We know, like, like take Musk for example, he's probably

1322
01:27:20,159 --> 01:27:22,920
the most likely candidate to fight the fight the current

1323
01:27:22,960 --> 01:27:27,000
regime and maybe went out. He's on the right track.

1324
01:27:27,119 --> 01:27:31,279
But uh, you know, he's definitely not ideological. He wants

1325
01:27:31,319 --> 01:27:33,840
to get to Mars, that's about it, and anything that

1326
01:27:33,920 --> 01:27:36,840
stands in between him and that goal needs to be

1327
01:27:36,840 --> 01:27:40,479
swept away. That's that's not an ideology either.

1328
01:27:40,880 --> 01:27:44,880
Speaker 2: No, No, that's he has a goal. That's it's all right.

1329
01:27:46,760 --> 01:27:49,720
Burnham and the Machiavelians tended to interpret all of social

1330
01:27:49,760 --> 01:27:53,119
and political reality in terms of the doctrine of the elite.

1331
01:27:53,520 --> 01:27:56,960
For them, the nature of the elite is largely determinative

1332
01:27:57,560 --> 01:28:02,880
of other social, economic, political, and cultural institutions. Institutions that

1333
01:28:02,920 --> 01:28:05,680
are not consistent with the perceived interests of an elite

1334
01:28:05,760 --> 01:28:09,840
are abolished or discouraged, while those that are are or

1335
01:28:09,880 --> 01:28:13,680
would be consistent with its perceived interests are created or promoted.

1336
01:28:14,079 --> 01:28:18,840
Quoting from the quoting from the book. From the point

1337
01:28:18,840 --> 01:28:20,760
of view of the theory of the ruling class, a

1338
01:28:20,840 --> 01:28:24,720
society is the society of its ruling class. A nation's

1339
01:28:24,760 --> 01:28:30,720
strengths or weaknesses, its cultures, its powers of endurance, its prosperity,

1340
01:28:30,760 --> 01:28:34,359
its decadence depend in the first instance, upon the nature

1341
01:28:34,399 --> 01:28:38,359
of its ruling elite. More particularly, the way in which

1342
01:28:38,399 --> 01:28:41,039
to study a nation, to understand it, to predict what

1343
01:28:41,079 --> 01:28:44,239
will happen to it, requires, first of all, and primarily,

1344
01:28:44,319 --> 01:28:48,600
an analysis of the ruling class. Political history and political

1345
01:28:48,600 --> 01:28:52,399
science are thus predominantly the history and science of ruling classes,

1346
01:28:52,600 --> 01:29:00,239
their origin, development, composition, structure, and changes. The important that

1347
01:29:00,239 --> 01:29:03,960
the Machiavelians attached to the elite or ruling class resembles

1348
01:29:04,119 --> 01:29:08,880
and to a degree parallels Marx's emphasis on economic forces

1349
01:29:08,920 --> 01:29:13,399
in interpreting history. Yet the Machiavelian theory of elite is

1350
01:29:13,399 --> 01:29:16,199
a broader doctrine than that of Marx, and allows for

1351
01:29:16,239 --> 01:29:21,199
consideration of non economic and non material forces in understanding

1352
01:29:21,239 --> 01:29:23,840
men in history, far more than Marx.

1353
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:27,840
Speaker 1: Did, yeah, which is very difficult when you factor in

1354
01:29:28,119 --> 01:29:32,199
all of the other you know, non non scientific factors

1355
01:29:32,239 --> 01:29:36,800
that go into going to studying the history of a

1356
01:29:37,840 --> 01:29:41,319
of a nation, a culture of people. You know, it

1357
01:29:41,960 --> 01:29:48,520
gets so far beyond dialectics. It's insane. It's hard. That's why,

1358
01:29:48,680 --> 01:29:51,359
that's why predicting things is so fucking hard. There's too

1359
01:29:51,359 --> 01:29:52,560
many goddamn factors.

1360
01:29:54,520 --> 01:29:58,039
Speaker 2: Nevertheless, because Burnham and the Machiavelians saw politics in terms

1361
01:29:58,079 --> 01:30:00,520
of a struggle for power, and the struggle for power

1362
01:30:00,600 --> 01:30:03,359
was central to the nature of an elite and to

1363
01:30:03,520 --> 01:30:07,039
all other social relationships, it would not be inaccurate to

1364
01:30:07,079 --> 01:30:12,079
describe Machiavelianism as a kind of political determinism paralleling the

1365
01:30:12,119 --> 01:30:14,279
economic determinism of Marx.

1366
01:30:16,119 --> 01:30:18,000
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, do you think there was

1367
01:30:18,079 --> 01:30:22,720
really a struggle for power? You know, I think I

1368
01:30:22,760 --> 01:30:27,199
think it's roundly agreed circuit. Somewhere around twenty twelve is

1369
01:30:27,239 --> 01:30:29,520
when we kind of had this turning point into what

1370
01:30:29,560 --> 01:30:33,680
we have now, which is just like gay trans Soviet Russia.

1371
01:30:34,319 --> 01:30:38,399
But before that, I mean, we told there's been a

1372
01:30:38,439 --> 01:30:41,199
lot of talk about how great the nineties was and

1373
01:30:41,640 --> 01:30:48,439
how you know, how basically unified we were, how basically

1374
01:30:48,880 --> 01:30:52,720
free and prosperous we were, and how happy we were.

1375
01:30:54,000 --> 01:30:56,239
I think there's something to that. The culture was definitely

1376
01:30:56,239 --> 01:31:00,000
different the ruling class. Do you think the ruling class

1377
01:31:00,159 --> 01:31:03,399
was different then? And then we had maybe not even

1378
01:31:03,439 --> 01:31:05,520
a struggle that got us to where we are now,

1379
01:31:06,640 --> 01:31:08,560
and that kind of defined the nature of why they're

1380
01:31:08,600 --> 01:31:10,640
so incompetent because they didn't have to struggle for it.

1381
01:31:11,239 --> 01:31:13,319
Speaker 2: Well, I think Thomas makes a really good point about

1382
01:31:13,319 --> 01:31:16,920
the early nineties, is the nineties, especially the first half

1383
01:31:16,920 --> 01:31:19,319
of the nineties, is that it was it was kind

1384
01:31:19,319 --> 01:31:25,239
of anarchy. There was and you know, I know that

1385
01:31:25,720 --> 01:31:28,560
the anarchists watching, they want me to make an argument

1386
01:31:28,600 --> 01:31:31,960
that anarchy's good because it means without rulers. That's what

1387
01:31:33,079 --> 01:31:35,079
it means, without rulers.

1388
01:31:35,079 --> 01:31:37,760
Speaker 1: Shut the fuck up, you know, we mean the normal Yeah.

1389
01:31:37,640 --> 01:31:41,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, we mean the definition that everybody agrees upon. Oh

1390
01:31:41,039 --> 01:31:45,800
but that's democracy. Yeah, go fuck your mother. I mean

1391
01:31:46,079 --> 01:31:49,359
people getting the amount of crime people get. I mean,

1392
01:31:49,359 --> 01:31:54,880
there's a reason why basically Juliani had to unleash an

1393
01:31:54,960 --> 01:31:57,199
army onto the streets to stop crime in New York.

1394
01:31:58,520 --> 01:32:02,640
It had reached And here's the thing. The people who

1395
01:32:02,760 --> 01:32:06,760
talk about the nineties being this great. They're usually leftists,

1396
01:32:07,159 --> 01:32:09,800
they're usually people from the left side. Well, why was

1397
01:32:09,800 --> 01:32:12,039
the nineties great? Because they could get away with doing

1398
01:32:12,119 --> 01:32:14,680
all the degenerate shit that they wanted to. They weren't

1399
01:32:14,760 --> 01:32:17,439
judged for it. It was fine. I mean, I knew

1400
01:32:17,439 --> 01:32:21,239
people who, yeah.

1401
01:32:20,479 --> 01:32:22,640
Speaker 1: It was live and let live, but also live and

1402
01:32:22,720 --> 01:32:26,720
let live to like to be, you know, kind of

1403
01:32:26,920 --> 01:32:29,000
kind of more on the right than you are allowed

1404
01:32:29,000 --> 01:32:29,439
to be now.

1405
01:32:29,560 --> 01:32:33,279
Speaker 2: Well, and not even that, because you think about the

1406
01:32:33,319 --> 01:32:36,159
pat Con movement where they would go they were going

1407
01:32:36,199 --> 01:32:38,680
after right wing militia groups, and you know they don't

1408
01:32:38,680 --> 01:32:40,880
even talk about that, like half of those militia groups

1409
01:32:40,880 --> 01:32:42,239
that they took down that black.

1410
01:32:42,239 --> 01:32:44,000
Speaker 1: Still you still couldn't be that far to that it's

1411
01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:45,880
still illegal to be that far to the right. But

1412
01:32:46,000 --> 01:32:48,640
you know, you could call your friend a fag, or

1413
01:32:48,680 --> 01:32:50,840
you could like, you know, you could say the N

1414
01:32:50,920 --> 01:32:53,279
word and nobody would like, nobody would freak out about

1415
01:32:53,319 --> 01:32:56,560
it amongst your peer group. Now, not so much, I.

1416
01:32:56,479 --> 01:32:59,479
Speaker 2: Mean, but it was, it was. It was heaven for

1417
01:33:00,079 --> 01:33:02,800
one like James Lindsay. He got away with doing all

1418
01:33:02,840 --> 01:33:05,880
the degenerate shit he wanted to, and far right wingers

1419
01:33:05,880 --> 01:33:07,000
were being cracked down upon.

1420
01:33:07,880 --> 01:33:11,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep. And the other question I have is do

1421
01:33:11,319 --> 01:33:14,119
you think that would be the defining factor of say

1422
01:33:14,359 --> 01:33:18,560
the eighties Reagan years into the nineties, was the switch

1423
01:33:18,640 --> 01:33:22,199
between tough on crime and then you know, prison and

1424
01:33:22,479 --> 01:33:28,359
mandatory minimum sentencing, prison reform, mandatory minimum sentencing, this transfer

1425
01:33:28,439 --> 01:33:32,000
over to a softer approach, a more I don't know,

1426
01:33:32,199 --> 01:33:33,560
socially informed approach.

1427
01:33:35,960 --> 01:33:37,880
Speaker 2: It's hard for me to say that. You know, in

1428
01:33:37,920 --> 01:33:41,239
the eighties, I was not That wasn't something that I

1429
01:33:41,279 --> 01:33:44,000
would have been able to really pay attention to. I

1430
01:33:44,039 --> 01:33:47,399
have to think about history, and you know, I'm not

1431
01:33:47,439 --> 01:33:51,079
going to be able to give a personal a personal

1432
01:33:51,279 --> 01:33:56,239
opinion on that. But I mean, really the problem in

1433
01:33:56,279 --> 01:33:58,520
the eighties was I mean, it was just the crime

1434
01:33:58,720 --> 01:34:03,319
was insane and it was just so matter of fact.

1435
01:34:04,840 --> 01:34:07,399
It's just you accepted the fact that there was all

1436
01:34:07,439 --> 01:34:10,239
this crime going on, and it's not like now where

1437
01:34:10,319 --> 01:34:13,199
you know, you have social media. Everybody's like, look, you

1438
01:34:13,239 --> 01:34:16,199
got these Soros DA's and they can go out and

1439
01:34:16,199 --> 01:34:18,239
commit crime all they want. If you try and stop them,

1440
01:34:18,279 --> 01:34:20,680
you go to jail. You know, you have people who

1441
01:34:22,119 --> 01:34:24,840
put up flyers who get two years in jail, someone

1442
01:34:24,920 --> 01:34:27,319
rapes a twelve year old, they get, you know, fifteen

1443
01:34:27,359 --> 01:34:32,640
months probation. You can talk more about that now it's

1444
01:34:32,840 --> 01:34:35,039
you can learn more about it because of social media,

1445
01:34:35,119 --> 01:34:37,760
but back then it was, you know, harder. You'd really

1446
01:34:37,800 --> 01:34:39,439
just have to go back into books and study the

1447
01:34:39,520 --> 01:34:42,479
history on that. But I can't really, I can't really

1448
01:34:42,479 --> 01:34:45,880
answer that question properly. But you know, being an adult

1449
01:34:45,920 --> 01:34:47,960
in the nineties and living through the nineties, Yeah, man,

1450
01:34:47,960 --> 01:34:51,119
I knew people who were you know, odeed, killed themselves,

1451
01:34:51,560 --> 01:34:55,039
got hung up on got hung up on on oxy

1452
01:34:55,199 --> 01:34:57,439
really early. I knew people got hung up on meth

1453
01:34:57,600 --> 01:35:01,119
real early on in the in the whole game. You know,

1454
01:35:01,159 --> 01:35:03,880
I knew people in I mean from when I was

1455
01:35:03,920 --> 01:35:07,960
a kid. I knew people like my dad worked with

1456
01:35:08,159 --> 01:35:12,520
the guy whose wife was the first recorded crack victim

1457
01:35:12,520 --> 01:35:13,319
in New York City.

1458
01:35:14,079 --> 01:35:15,520
Speaker 1: Oh wow, yeah huh.

1459
01:35:15,560 --> 01:35:17,520
Speaker 2: And they were white.

1460
01:35:17,920 --> 01:35:18,199
Speaker 1: Huh.

1461
01:35:18,560 --> 01:35:21,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so it is.

1462
01:35:21,239 --> 01:35:25,840
Speaker 1: It is pretty great, all right.

1463
01:35:27,439 --> 01:35:29,720
Speaker 2: It should also be understood that Burnam and his mentors

1464
01:35:29,760 --> 01:35:32,960
were not arguing for elitism in the sense of aristocracy.

1465
01:35:33,439 --> 01:35:35,880
They were not arguing that elites should rule the majority

1466
01:35:35,920 --> 01:35:40,000
because their members are better, more virtuous, stronger, more intelligent

1467
01:35:40,119 --> 01:35:42,520
or wiser than most men. They were arguing for the

1468
01:35:42,560 --> 01:35:48,479
sociological inevitability of minority domination, for the impossibility of majority rule,

1469
01:35:48,880 --> 01:35:52,479
and democracy in any literal or meaningful sense. I mean

1470
01:35:52,560 --> 01:35:56,439
democracy now. To me, when people ask me what democracy means, now,

1471
01:35:56,840 --> 01:36:03,840
I just tell them either whatever the region is pushing, sodomy, transgenderism.

1472
01:36:03,880 --> 01:36:05,680
I mean, that's basically what democracy is.

1473
01:36:06,479 --> 01:36:11,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's it's great to see, you know, the

1474
01:36:11,000 --> 01:36:14,800
the inherent contradictions between democracy and liberalism kind of play

1475
01:36:14,800 --> 01:36:20,159
itself out on the left, especially with this uh, Palestine

1476
01:36:20,239 --> 01:36:24,239
Israel thing going on. It's you could if you view

1477
01:36:24,239 --> 01:36:28,800
it through that lens, democracy versus liberalism. It's it's just

1478
01:36:28,880 --> 01:36:31,000
amazing to see, and it's only going to get better.

1479
01:36:32,960 --> 01:36:36,239
Speaker 2: The fact of oligarchy, they argued, was founded on an

1480
01:36:36,239 --> 01:36:40,079
empirical and comparative study of history, on the biological and

1481
01:36:40,119 --> 01:36:43,560
psychological realities of human beings and on the nature of

1482
01:36:43,640 --> 01:36:47,319
human society societies. It was a fact that could be

1483
01:36:47,399 --> 01:36:51,840
neither ignored nor altered, and moral approbation or criticism of

1484
01:36:51,880 --> 01:36:56,039
the fact of oligarchy is irrelevant to its truth. Yet,

1485
01:36:56,079 --> 01:36:59,119
elites are not permanent, and the laws that govern the

1486
01:36:59,199 --> 01:37:01,279
change and the company position and the rise and fall

1487
01:37:01,319 --> 01:37:03,840
of elites were an important theme for Burnham and for

1488
01:37:04,039 --> 01:37:08,039
Mosca and Pereto, to whom he devoted most attention. Mosca

1489
01:37:08,119 --> 01:37:11,720
had recognized in all elites and aristocratic tendency by which

1490
01:37:11,760 --> 01:37:15,920
they tend to restrict or encourage entrance to or exit

1491
01:37:16,000 --> 01:37:16,880
from their ranks.

1492
01:37:18,039 --> 01:37:22,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's another battleground. Is everybody wants to be

1493
01:37:23,920 --> 01:37:27,399
everybody wants. Everybody's chasing status. That's why you have people

1494
01:37:27,439 --> 01:37:29,399
going into two hundred thousand dollars in debt to go

1495
01:37:29,479 --> 01:37:31,880
to Harvard. That's so that they can have that degree

1496
01:37:31,960 --> 01:37:34,760
and enter the ranks of the elite, or at least

1497
01:37:35,039 --> 01:37:38,640
the near group of the elite. And it's it's going

1498
01:37:38,720 --> 01:37:42,560
to be really funny if we have a collapse.

1499
01:37:44,520 --> 01:37:48,880
Speaker 2: When the restrictive aristocratic tendency is predominant, society is stable

1500
01:37:48,960 --> 01:37:53,039
and may begin to stagnate. When the democratic tendency is predominant,

1501
01:37:53,079 --> 01:37:57,479
society is in flux, with many innovations, social and political crises,

1502
01:37:58,239 --> 01:38:02,520
cultural ferment and perhaps disorder, chaos and revolution.

1503
01:38:03,359 --> 01:38:07,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaking of the transition between the nineties to the early.

1504
01:38:07,479 --> 01:38:12,840
Speaker 2: Aughts, Parretto himself went further and developed a psychology of

1505
01:38:12,880 --> 01:38:14,880
elites that is at the root of his theory of

1506
01:38:14,920 --> 01:38:20,359
the circulation of elites. Parreto distinguished between derivations of ideologies

1507
01:38:20,439 --> 01:38:26,319
and residues, which are constant universal psychological instincts or impulses.

1508
01:38:26,960 --> 01:38:30,079
Among the six classes of residues that Parreto recognized, the

1509
01:38:30,119 --> 01:38:33,399
two most important were those of class one, the instinct

1510
01:38:33,479 --> 01:38:39,560
for combinations. In class two, group preference, group persistence.

1511
01:38:39,720 --> 01:38:42,399
Speaker 1: And then there's four more. And that's why I couldn't

1512
01:38:42,439 --> 01:38:43,039
read Parreto.

1513
01:38:44,840 --> 01:38:49,319
Speaker 2: If you read AA's book on the one I read

1514
01:38:49,359 --> 01:38:53,079
on the Populist Delusion, he does a really good job

1515
01:38:53,119 --> 01:38:56,640
of summing it all up very fast, in a very

1516
01:38:56,680 --> 01:39:01,760
short in very short chapters. These were excellent. Yeah, yeah,

1517
01:39:02,039 --> 01:39:07,720
it's a great book. I'm retarding these residues. Pereto specifically

1518
01:39:07,720 --> 01:39:11,479
correlated with Machiavelli's distinction between the fox and the lion

1519
01:39:11,520 --> 01:39:14,840
among rulers. Just as a ruler who's a fox relies

1520
01:39:14,840 --> 01:39:19,159
on cunning, deceit, and verbal and intellectual skills, elites whose

1521
01:39:19,199 --> 01:39:22,560
members are driven by class one residues tend to synthesize

1522
01:39:22,680 --> 01:39:27,920
arbitrary elements of their experience. Class one residues include behavioral

1523
01:39:27,960 --> 01:39:32,159
patterns such as those of magic, philosophical system making, and

1524
01:39:32,319 --> 01:39:39,800
financial manipulation. Elites that contain primarily verbalists, intellectuals, and administrators

1525
01:39:40,039 --> 01:39:43,600
will exhibit a high proportion of Class one residues and

1526
01:39:43,680 --> 01:39:46,680
will try to preserve their own power and resolve problems

1527
01:39:46,720 --> 01:39:51,640
through verbal, administrative, and manipulative behavior rather than through the

1528
01:39:51,800 --> 01:39:58,279
use of force. They thus correspond to Machiavelli's foxes. Quoting

1529
01:39:58,680 --> 01:40:03,119
from the book Machiavellians, they live by their wits. They

1530
01:40:03,119 --> 01:40:06,560
put their reliance on fraud, deceit, and shrewdness. They do

1531
01:40:06,640 --> 01:40:10,079
not have strong attachment to family, church, nation, and traditions.

1532
01:40:10,479 --> 01:40:13,319
They live in the present, taking little thought of the future,

1533
01:40:13,560 --> 01:40:17,159
and are always ready for change, novelty, and adventure. They

1534
01:40:17,159 --> 01:40:19,880
are not adept as a rule in the use of force.

1535
01:40:20,279 --> 01:40:25,399
They are inventive and chance taking. Well, yep, we'll talk

1536
01:40:25,399 --> 01:40:26,960
a little bit about that for in a second.

1537
01:40:27,560 --> 01:40:30,680
Speaker 1: I remember an episode from way back where I forget

1538
01:40:30,680 --> 01:40:32,880
if it was you or your guest, implied that we

1539
01:40:33,000 --> 01:40:37,119
are our elites are entirely comprised of foxes. There are

1540
01:40:37,239 --> 01:40:40,960
no lions, and maybe it was Trump, maybe it's a lawn,

1541
01:40:41,479 --> 01:40:44,760
But they're definitely, they're they're the lions right now, the

1542
01:40:44,840 --> 01:40:46,199
only two. Right.

1543
01:40:46,279 --> 01:40:49,920
Speaker 2: Well, I mean you do have the people in power

1544
01:40:50,039 --> 01:40:55,960
now who are using force. I mean, yeah, true, so Biden,

1545
01:40:56,359 --> 01:40:58,760
it's so pretty soft. Yeah well, I mean you're throwing

1546
01:40:58,800 --> 01:41:02,119
people in jail, and that's you're destroying people's lives, in

1547
01:41:02,159 --> 01:41:05,640
their livelihood and everything. A lot of people would rather

1548
01:41:05,680 --> 01:41:09,079
be dead than have that happened to them. But the

1549
01:41:11,520 --> 01:41:14,520
you know, you have to wonder what stage in civilization,

1550
01:41:14,760 --> 01:41:19,880
what stage in what stage in elite theory you are

1551
01:41:20,640 --> 01:41:23,159
when the foxes start to use.

1552
01:41:25,880 --> 01:41:30,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I guess, you know, exiting the

1553
01:41:31,000 --> 01:41:36,880
animal analogy. It's when they're sufficiently threatened or when they're

1554
01:41:36,920 --> 01:41:38,000
sufficiently fragile.

1555
01:41:38,840 --> 01:41:40,600
Speaker 2: I think it's a fragility more than anything.

1556
01:41:41,319 --> 01:41:42,279
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1557
01:41:42,359 --> 01:41:45,920
Speaker 2: The residues of class two group persistence correspond to the

1558
01:41:45,960 --> 01:41:49,319
lions of Machiavelli. For those who exhibit a high proportion

1559
01:41:49,399 --> 01:41:54,079
of class two residues quoting are able and ready to

1560
01:41:54,239 --> 01:41:57,399
use force, relying on it rather than brains to solve

1561
01:41:57,439 --> 01:42:02,439
their problems. They are conservative, patriarch loyalty tradition, and solidly

1562
01:42:02,520 --> 01:42:06,319
tend super individual groups like family or church or nation.

1563
01:42:07,439 --> 01:42:08,319
Where are these people.

1564
01:42:09,199 --> 01:42:11,720
Speaker 1: I know who's going to cut the Gordian knot please.

1565
01:42:14,520 --> 01:42:15,880
Speaker 2: I don't know who these people are.

1566
01:42:18,239 --> 01:42:20,680
Speaker 1: I've heard about them from Class two.

1567
01:42:20,520 --> 01:42:24,199
Speaker 2: Revenues or psychic forces that tend to sustain and perpetuate

1568
01:42:24,319 --> 01:42:29,079
existing combinations. They are sociologically conservative, while those of Class

1569
01:42:29,119 --> 01:42:34,800
one are sociologically innovative. That's an interesting word. A healthy elite,

1570
01:42:34,880 --> 01:42:38,359
according to Pereto, will have an equilibrium in the distribution

1571
01:42:38,439 --> 01:42:41,920
of these psychic types within it, but under certain conditions

1572
01:42:41,920 --> 01:42:46,239
an imbalance will result. That's what we're seeing now. That's

1573
01:42:46,279 --> 01:42:49,079
what that's that's what it is now because the ones

1574
01:42:49,119 --> 01:42:52,319
who would be the ones who would commit violence would

1575
01:42:52,359 --> 01:42:54,399
be the lions, and they have no lions.

1576
01:42:55,359 --> 01:43:01,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all foxes, yep the wall and seeing what see.

1577
01:43:01,920 --> 01:43:06,000
Speaker 2: Basically, yeah, if too many Class two residues accrew in

1578
01:43:06,079 --> 01:43:09,039
the elite, it will rely excessively on force and will

1579
01:43:09,039 --> 01:43:13,359
fail to innovate and adapt to changing circumstances and challenges.

1580
01:43:13,800 --> 01:43:16,720
If too many Class one types come to predominate, as

1581
01:43:16,720 --> 01:43:19,840
Peretto believes was happening in the late nineteenth century, the

1582
01:43:19,920 --> 01:43:24,119
elite and its society will become soft, unstable, corrupt, and disorderly.

1583
01:43:24,439 --> 01:43:27,439
Although the society may produce a very high level of

1584
01:43:27,520 --> 01:43:33,079
cultural expression. Oh now, saying that. Worst of all, however,

1585
01:43:33,239 --> 01:43:36,279
the society will be unwilling and unable to use force

1586
01:43:36,319 --> 01:43:39,960
to protect itself from either internal external challenges.

1587
01:43:41,359 --> 01:43:44,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I don't think we're anywhere like that. Yeah.

1588
01:43:44,840 --> 01:43:49,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's yeah, this, that's not here. While the foxes

1589
01:43:49,560 --> 01:43:52,359
of class one predominate in the elite, the lions of

1590
01:43:52,399 --> 01:43:55,600
class two are concentrated in the non elite and may

1591
01:43:55,680 --> 01:43:58,560
use force against the foxes in rebellion and other forms

1592
01:43:58,600 --> 01:44:02,960
of violence. External enemies may also commit aggression against the

1593
01:44:03,000 --> 01:44:06,600
societies ruled by foxes, and in any case, because of

1594
01:44:06,640 --> 01:44:10,560
the lack of qualities of group persistence, a society led

1595
01:44:10,600 --> 01:44:13,720
by class one types will have few psychic resources for

1596
01:44:13,880 --> 01:44:16,159
mustering endurance and sacrifice.

1597
01:44:16,640 --> 01:44:21,039
Speaker 1: Yeah that, there's no energy to direct in any type

1598
01:44:21,039 --> 01:44:23,359
of revolutionary social change.

1599
01:44:25,239 --> 01:44:27,800
Speaker 2: Elites that are imbalanced by too many class one or

1600
01:44:27,840 --> 01:44:30,560
class two residues are unstable and are likely to be

1601
01:44:30,640 --> 01:44:34,039
overthrown or replaced. They tend to create the conditions that

1602
01:44:34,159 --> 01:44:36,960
lead to their fall from power. The rise and fall

1603
01:44:37,000 --> 01:44:40,159
of elites and changes in their composition Pereto called the

1604
01:44:40,199 --> 01:44:44,840
circulation of elites. Normally, a healthy elite will be in

1605
01:44:44,920 --> 01:44:49,359
continual but slow circulation, admitting new members and expelling or

1606
01:44:49,399 --> 01:44:54,199
ostracizing old and decament elements. When the circulation occurs too rapidly,

1607
01:44:54,319 --> 01:44:57,600
or when one elite is suddenly and entirely replaced by another,

1608
01:44:58,079 --> 01:45:01,840
the result is revolution the theory of.

1609
01:45:01,920 --> 01:45:04,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess that. Yeah. I mean, before this, I'd

1610
01:45:04,880 --> 01:45:06,880
never heard it placed that way. I've I've heard a

1611
01:45:06,920 --> 01:45:11,319
lot of explanations for what constitutes and what causes revolutionary

1612
01:45:11,359 --> 01:45:15,600
social change. But I mean, I guess you can. You

1613
01:45:15,600 --> 01:45:17,520
can explain it in many different ways and still come

1614
01:45:17,560 --> 01:45:20,039
out with the same, no right answer.

1615
01:45:20,920 --> 01:45:23,479
Speaker 2: I think what we may be seeing now, and this

1616
01:45:23,600 --> 01:45:26,560
isn't an original idea. I don't remember who maybe heard

1617
01:45:26,560 --> 01:45:30,680
it from Orrin, is you have an overproduction of elites

1618
01:45:31,760 --> 01:45:36,520
because and I would say it's because the money supply

1619
01:45:36,600 --> 01:45:41,319
has been increased and expanded so far that you have

1620
01:45:41,479 --> 01:45:46,119
so many people that have acquired insane amounts of wealth. Yeah,

1621
01:45:46,119 --> 01:45:49,520
and they basically become elites, but they are not the

1622
01:45:49,640 --> 01:45:53,319
kind of They're not impressive at all. There. You know,

1623
01:45:53,439 --> 01:45:56,800
if you have too much of something, if you have

1624
01:45:56,960 --> 01:45:59,319
if you produce too much of something, and it happens

1625
01:45:59,359 --> 01:46:01,640
too fast. You know a lot of times you're just

1626
01:46:01,680 --> 01:46:03,279
going to have defects all over the place.

1627
01:46:04,039 --> 01:46:07,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, if everybody's an elite, then nobody's an elite, and

1628
01:46:07,560 --> 01:46:08,359
you go from there.

1629
01:46:12,359 --> 01:46:15,199
Speaker 2: The theory of elites, as developed by Moscow and Pareto

1630
01:46:15,520 --> 01:46:19,520
and endorsement expounded by Burnham, was by no means an

1631
01:46:19,640 --> 01:46:22,600
argument for the monopolization of power and privilege by an

1632
01:46:22,720 --> 01:46:27,439
established few. Indeed, Mosca and Pareto were emphatic that healthy

1633
01:46:27,439 --> 01:46:31,039
elites should alter in composition slowly and regularly, and that

1634
01:46:31,119 --> 01:46:37,119
they should not become homogeneous or monolithic. Mosca, in particular,

1635
01:46:37,159 --> 01:46:39,359
as well done these points and developed a method that

1636
01:46:39,399 --> 01:46:43,479
went beyond the descriptive analysis of Machiavelianism to a normative

1637
01:46:43,520 --> 01:46:47,119
mode of analysis by which elites and the societies they

1638
01:46:47,239 --> 01:46:52,680
ruled could be evaluated. Although the rule of elites unelected

1639
01:46:52,680 --> 01:46:57,159
and unrepresentative is inevitable, Mosca argued that the internal structure

1640
01:46:57,199 --> 01:47:01,600
of elites is an important means of distinguishing them. All societies,

1641
01:47:01,640 --> 01:47:06,039
according to Mosca, are composed of contending social forces, groups

1642
01:47:06,039 --> 01:47:13,199
that have interests and values associated with particular kinds of activities. Agriculture, industry, education, religion,

1643
01:47:13,479 --> 01:47:17,399
the army, et cetera. Within these social forces, there are

1644
01:47:17,479 --> 01:47:23,520
hierarchies and differentiations of power, wealth, merit, or geographical locations.

1645
01:47:23,880 --> 01:47:27,000
The most significant social forces become part of the elite

1646
01:47:27,039 --> 01:47:30,199
and pursue their particular interests and values within it.

1647
01:47:31,560 --> 01:47:34,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess to a degree. I don't know if

1648
01:47:34,279 --> 01:47:41,319
that's particularly applicable now, but yeah, well, yeah, there are

1649
01:47:41,960 --> 01:47:45,079
the hierarchies have been flattened so much because, like you said,

1650
01:47:45,079 --> 01:47:49,600
we're over manufacturing. I mean, other than like you know,

1651
01:47:49,680 --> 01:47:51,920
the top levels of the state or the deep state

1652
01:47:52,039 --> 01:47:57,039
or whatever, or or the illuminati, like you know, the

1653
01:47:58,920 --> 01:48:01,640
everything below that is pretty much there's not a whole

1654
01:48:01,680 --> 01:48:05,960
lot of difference other than what industry they're in or

1655
01:48:06,079 --> 01:48:10,479
geographic location. That there's not really a whole lot of

1656
01:48:10,520 --> 01:48:12,439
difference in what defines them.

1657
01:48:14,640 --> 01:48:17,840
Speaker 2: When, according to Mosca, there is a multiplicity of independent

1658
01:48:17,920 --> 01:48:20,960
social forces within the elite or ruling class such that

1659
01:48:21,119 --> 01:48:24,199
no one force has sufficient power to exclude or exploit

1660
01:48:24,239 --> 01:48:28,960
the others, then a de facto condition of juridical defense obtains.

1661
01:48:29,960 --> 01:48:33,560
Mosca's concept of juridical defense is approximate to what is

1662
01:48:33,600 --> 01:48:37,640
more generally known as the rule of law. Because of

1663
01:48:37,680 --> 01:48:41,279
the mutually balancing and restraining action of the social forces

1664
01:48:41,319 --> 01:48:44,439
in the ruling class, no single force or faction can

1665
01:48:44,479 --> 01:48:50,800
accumulate or exercise arbitrary irregular power. Each social force and

1666
01:48:50,840 --> 01:48:54,680
the groups and individuals composing or attached to it, protects

1667
01:48:54,680 --> 01:48:58,640
itself from exploitation by the checking power it holds against

1668
01:48:58,640 --> 01:49:03,439
the others. Even though this system of socio political checks

1669
01:49:03,800 --> 01:49:08,039
may not be formally reorganized in recognized in law, it

1670
01:49:08,079 --> 01:49:12,159
can still exist and be a substantive restraint on tyrannical power.

1671
01:49:13,079 --> 01:49:15,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, there is kind of a parallel rule book for

1672
01:49:16,279 --> 01:49:19,119
when you hit a certain amount of asset value.

1673
01:49:20,560 --> 01:49:24,359
Speaker 2: Mosca's concept of juridical defense owed much to both Machiavelli

1674
01:49:24,399 --> 01:49:27,039
and Montesque, as well as to the exponents of the

1675
01:49:27,079 --> 01:49:32,279
classical theory of the mixed constitution. Unlike Montsque, however, Mosca

1676
01:49:32,399 --> 01:49:34,840
did not limit his idea of checks and balances to

1677
01:49:34,880 --> 01:49:38,520
the formal and legalistic component of the government, but extended

1678
01:49:38,520 --> 01:49:42,600
it to the substantial, concrete or real component social forces

1679
01:49:42,880 --> 01:49:44,319
within a ruling class.

1680
01:49:45,119 --> 01:49:47,479
Speaker 1: So that's another thing I see, and I don't know

1681
01:49:47,560 --> 01:49:50,520
to the degree that it affects, you know, really rich

1682
01:49:50,600 --> 01:49:55,560
people that we would probably call elite. But the what

1683
01:49:55,720 --> 01:49:58,800
is it the mixed constitution idea where you have you

1684
01:49:58,880 --> 01:50:01,159
have the rule of law, but there's also other rules

1685
01:50:01,199 --> 01:50:05,560
that everybody kind of agrees to follow. That has been

1686
01:50:05,720 --> 01:50:09,880
just withering away on the vine on purpose. Everything is

1687
01:50:09,960 --> 01:50:16,720
legalistic now, everything is everything has to be codified into

1688
01:50:17,000 --> 01:50:20,760
an employee handbook or an HR department or something like that.

1689
01:50:20,840 --> 01:50:23,319
And I think that's a function of just managerialism.

1690
01:50:23,479 --> 01:50:30,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, managerialism is so I mean, there's nothing more managerial

1691
01:50:31,399 --> 01:50:32,159
than law fair.

1692
01:50:32,720 --> 01:50:35,600
Speaker 1: We were talking about how how pernicious law fair is

1693
01:50:35,640 --> 01:50:40,520
and just how how it's so common now for people

1694
01:50:40,560 --> 01:50:45,520
to weaponize bad faith interpretations of you know, contracts of laws,

1695
01:50:45,920 --> 01:50:49,399
of agreements, even informal ones, and that was kind of

1696
01:50:49,439 --> 01:50:52,520
never the case before. And I suspect it has something

1697
01:50:52,560 --> 01:50:57,239
to do with demographic changes, and you know, the ripple

1698
01:50:57,279 --> 01:51:00,119
effect of them affecting you know, cultures that were or

1699
01:51:00,199 --> 01:51:04,479
otherwise you know, not exhibiting that behavior. But even amongst

1700
01:51:04,479 --> 01:51:08,840
our social class, you know, it's it's it's still it's

1701
01:51:08,840 --> 01:51:13,439
so pernicious now, where even five ten years ago, I

1702
01:51:13,600 --> 01:51:19,520
at least in my experience, everybody kind of agreed functionally

1703
01:51:19,560 --> 01:51:24,359
agreed on, you know what, like what makes for an

1704
01:51:24,399 --> 01:51:28,680
agreement or a contract or you know, an address of grievance.

1705
01:51:29,520 --> 01:51:34,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, once you start getting into you start importing all

1706
01:51:34,399 --> 01:51:37,520
sorts of different cultures, you just you're not You're not

1707
01:51:37,560 --> 01:51:39,159
going to have any unanimity.

1708
01:51:40,640 --> 01:51:43,079
Speaker 1: And and I think it's also a function of just

1709
01:51:43,159 --> 01:51:46,000
the true economic state that we're in that despite what

1710
01:51:46,039 --> 01:51:49,479
the graphs say, I don't have the luxury of you know,

1711
01:51:49,640 --> 01:51:54,000
risking five thousand dollars deposit with a shittily written contract

1712
01:51:54,439 --> 01:51:56,199
that I may or may not get back if you

1713
01:51:56,239 --> 01:51:58,560
don't show up, Because now I have to worry about that.

1714
01:52:00,479 --> 01:52:02,840
Speaker 2: This departure from the formal to the real was part

1715
01:52:02,880 --> 01:52:06,680
of the Machiavelian tradition, and Moscaw thus welded it to

1716
01:52:06,720 --> 01:52:11,640
the classical tradition of mixed constitution. In Burnham's words, juridical

1717
01:52:11,680 --> 01:52:15,039
defense can be secure only where there are at work

1718
01:52:15,159 --> 01:52:19,600
various in opposing tendencies and forces, and where these mutually

1719
01:52:19,680 --> 01:52:24,600
check and restrain each other. The product of juridical defense

1720
01:52:24,760 --> 01:52:28,720
is liberty. The specific forms of juridical defense include the

1721
01:52:28,760 --> 01:52:34,199
familiar democratic rights, security of private property, security against arbitrary arrest,

1722
01:52:34,359 --> 01:52:40,640
freedom of religion, discussion, and assembly. Moreover, the multiplicity of

1723
01:52:40,720 --> 01:52:44,079
social forces participating and sharing power in the ruling class

1724
01:52:44,159 --> 01:52:48,119
leads to a high level of civilization and an efflorescence

1725
01:52:48,479 --> 01:52:49,600
of cultural life.

1726
01:52:50,840 --> 01:52:54,199
Speaker 1: Yes, because in order that, in order for that to flourish,

1727
01:52:54,239 --> 01:52:56,800
there has to be something outside the state. And I

1728
01:52:56,800 --> 01:53:00,119
think that's the commonly accepted definition of liberty, which is

1729
01:53:00,199 --> 01:53:04,439
kind of anything outside of the public anything in like,

1730
01:53:04,520 --> 01:53:07,760
any informal actions you take is an act of liberty.

1731
01:53:08,279 --> 01:53:11,479
And uh like there's you know, it may not it

1732
01:53:11,520 --> 01:53:14,840
may not be formalized into law, but it's it's definitely

1733
01:53:15,079 --> 01:53:20,439
uh a cultural change where that particular type of liberty,

1734
01:53:20,479 --> 01:53:23,600
the important type of liberty that we like is uh

1735
01:53:24,359 --> 01:53:28,479
just going away now in a in an informal manner.

1736
01:53:29,560 --> 01:53:33,279
Speaker 2: By way of contrast, the monopolization of power by one

1737
01:53:33,359 --> 01:53:36,399
social force leads to its unchecked power and to a

1738
01:53:36,439 --> 01:53:41,680
low level of civilization as other social forces with other resources, values,

1739
01:53:41,720 --> 01:53:47,159
and skills are excluded and exploited. Using the concept of

1740
01:53:47,239 --> 01:53:50,960
juridical defense and its antithesis, Moscow was able to evaluate

1741
01:53:51,000 --> 01:53:54,640
different kinds of polities depending on the internal structure and

1742
01:53:54,720 --> 01:53:58,479
composition of their elites. The worst kind of government would

1743
01:53:58,520 --> 01:54:01,600
be the uniform regimes in which the unrestrained power of

1744
01:54:01,640 --> 01:54:05,479
a single social force prevents all others from obtaining power

1745
01:54:05,840 --> 01:54:09,840
and distributing to the public culture. The best kind of

1746
01:54:09,880 --> 01:54:13,479
government to both Mosca and Pereto was the representative, middle

1747
01:54:13,479 --> 01:54:18,199
class aristocratic parliamentary governments of the mid to late nineteenth century.

1748
01:54:19,000 --> 01:54:22,600
This type, however, was threatened by the rise of mass democracy,

1749
01:54:22,920 --> 01:54:28,039
new classes of wealth and power, and socialism yeah yeah.

1750
01:54:28,079 --> 01:54:32,039
These forces, to both Mosca and Pereto, threaten to upset

1751
01:54:32,079 --> 01:54:36,319
the delicate balance that underlies the juridical defense and to

1752
01:54:36,399 --> 01:54:42,960
impose a monolithic regime on modern society. It should be

1753
01:54:43,079 --> 01:54:46,880
noted that this normative measure of governments is fundamentally modern,

1754
01:54:47,119 --> 01:54:50,800
and as such it follows Machiavelli and Monuscue. The best

1755
01:54:50,840 --> 01:54:53,439
regime to Moscow and Pereto is not that in which

1756
01:54:53,479 --> 01:54:56,079
the virtue of the citizen is most developed, but that

1757
01:54:56,199 --> 01:54:58,760
in which the security and liberty of the citizen and

1758
01:54:58,800 --> 01:55:03,279
the commonwealth are best parton. Although Mosca and the Machiavelians

1759
01:55:03,319 --> 01:55:06,960
were influenced by Aristotle, Cicero, and the pre modern tradition

1760
01:55:07,039 --> 01:55:10,680
of political thought their primary concern was not, as with

1761
01:55:10,760 --> 01:55:14,800
the earlier school, the ethical realization of man and society.

1762
01:55:15,600 --> 01:55:19,680
The special contribution of the Machiavelian tradition, however, is the

1763
01:55:19,800 --> 01:55:23,960
establishment of a criterion of normative judgment of regimes based

1764
01:55:24,000 --> 01:55:27,399
on empirical rather than on transcendental grounds.

1765
01:55:29,399 --> 01:55:33,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think deyl Notche would disagree with that slightly.

1766
01:55:34,680 --> 01:55:39,159
Speaker 2: Burnham accepted this Machiavelian formulation and its fundamental to his

1767
01:55:39,520 --> 01:55:44,119
entire career as a political thinker. His primary concern, like Machiavelli's,

1768
01:55:44,279 --> 01:55:48,560
was to establish a verifiable methodology for the analysis of

1769
01:55:48,640 --> 01:55:52,000
social and political affairs, but he was also concerned to

1770
01:55:52,079 --> 01:55:57,199
discover a realistic means of evaluating judging political institutions and behavior.

1771
01:56:01,359 --> 01:56:04,159
Speaker 1: Oh nothing, this is just explaining kind of the etymology

1772
01:56:04,199 --> 01:56:08,640
of how we came to regard regimes.

1773
01:56:09,640 --> 01:56:13,880
Speaker 2: He found both in the Machiavelians, and it was the

1774
01:56:14,079 --> 01:56:18,079
limitation of power that remained for him the primary political ideal,

1775
01:56:18,920 --> 01:56:22,199
quoting the Machiavelians are the only ones who have told

1776
01:56:22,279 --> 01:56:25,840
us the full truth about power. The primary object in

1777
01:56:25,920 --> 01:56:29,119
practice of all rulers is to serve their own interests,

1778
01:56:29,159 --> 01:56:33,079
to maintain their own power, and privilege. No theory, no promises,

1779
01:56:33,119 --> 01:56:37,479
no morality, no amount of goodwill, no religion will restrain power.

1780
01:56:38,000 --> 01:56:41,880
Neither priests nor soldiers, neither labor leaders nor businessmen, neither

1781
01:56:41,880 --> 01:56:44,800
bureaucrats nor feudal lords will differ from each other in

1782
01:56:44,880 --> 01:56:47,800
the basic use which they will seek to make of power.

1783
01:56:48,479 --> 01:56:53,239
Only power restrains power. When all opposition is destroyed, there

1784
01:56:53,319 --> 01:56:55,800
is no longer any limit to what power may do.

1785
01:56:56,439 --> 01:57:00,880
A despotism, any kind of despotism, can be evalent only

1786
01:57:00,960 --> 01:57:01,720
by accident.

1787
01:57:04,199 --> 01:57:09,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll see. I think, uh, I think this assumes

1788
01:57:09,600 --> 01:57:14,479
that uh, you know, it assumes a base uh human nature,

1789
01:57:15,720 --> 01:57:18,399
even amongst the elites that I don't know if is

1790
01:57:18,399 --> 01:57:22,840
applicable today, especially, you know, given given the uh just

1791
01:57:22,880 --> 01:57:26,119
a radical departure and competence from his time to ours,

1792
01:57:26,359 --> 01:57:28,880
and then also kind of the growth of uh you

1793
01:57:28,920 --> 01:57:31,479
know ai ai assistance.

1794
01:57:32,520 --> 01:57:35,800
Speaker 2: In the managerial revolution, Burnham had developed a model for

1795
01:57:36,039 --> 01:57:40,760
explanation of current world events, the depression, the rise of totalitarianism,

1796
01:57:40,800 --> 01:57:45,000
revolutionary changes in social and economic structure, political behavior, and

1797
01:57:45,079 --> 01:57:51,079
intellectual and cultural fermentation. The chief problem with his presentation

1798
01:57:51,199 --> 01:57:53,680
of the theory of the manager or revolution was its

1799
01:57:53,720 --> 01:57:58,439
over reliance on Marxist economic determinism and analogies drawn from

1800
01:57:58,439 --> 01:58:03,399
the Marxist interpretation of history. The Machiavelians, however, were not

1801
01:58:03,600 --> 01:58:07,319
economic determinists, and their interpretation of history was far more

1802
01:58:07,359 --> 01:58:12,079
flexible than that of Marx. Burnham therefore undertook to restate

1803
01:58:12,119 --> 01:58:14,600
the theory of the managerial revolution in terms of the

1804
01:58:14,640 --> 01:58:21,159
Machiavelian analytical framework. According to the Machiavelian model, an elite

1805
01:58:21,279 --> 01:58:25,079
or ruling class suffers a crisis of power under certain circumstances.

1806
01:58:25,720 --> 01:58:31,239
Burnham retained in the Machiavelians the essentially economic definition of

1807
01:58:31,279 --> 01:58:35,279
the old elite as a capitalist, bourgeois or entrepreneurial class

1808
01:58:35,279 --> 01:58:39,199
that owned and operated the means of production. However, the

1809
01:58:39,239 --> 01:58:42,479
economic forces and relationships were not the central factors in

1810
01:58:42,520 --> 01:58:45,119
bringing about the crisis of the old elite and the

1811
01:58:45,199 --> 01:58:49,079
rise of a new one. The rise of new social forces,

1812
01:58:49,439 --> 01:58:54,199
especially technological developments over which the capitalist or entrepreneurial elite

1813
01:58:54,239 --> 01:58:59,159
has no control, has made its institutions and ideologies obsolete

1814
01:58:59,399 --> 01:59:05,279
and less useful for preserving its power. The old elite

1815
01:59:05,359 --> 01:59:10,800
has also undergone a psychological, intellectual, and moral denigration, degeneration.

1816
01:59:11,920 --> 01:59:15,119
It shows little faith in its own ideology and institutions,

1817
01:59:15,159 --> 01:59:19,520
and it exhibits Mosca's aristocratic tendency and a crystallization of

1818
01:59:19,560 --> 01:59:27,039
its membership, interests, and activities instead of a dynamic, innovative expansion. Finally,

1819
01:59:27,319 --> 01:59:31,840
the entrepreneurial elite is tending to abandon political and professional

1820
01:59:31,880 --> 01:59:36,520
pursuits in favor of cultural and leisure activities. It is

1821
01:59:36,640 --> 01:59:41,520
drawn to humanitarian and irrationalist ideologies that undermine its own rule,

1822
01:59:41,880 --> 01:59:44,880
and it shows an increasing reluctance and inability to use

1823
01:59:44,960 --> 01:59:49,560
force effectively. The Class one or fox like residues of

1824
01:59:49,600 --> 01:59:55,680
Paretto are accumulating too heavily in the entrepreneurial elite. In

1825
01:59:55,720 --> 02:00:00,119
opposition to these signs of decadence is the aggressive, efficient, dynamic,

1826
02:00:00,239 --> 02:00:04,560
and sometimes fanatical character of the rising managerial class. It's

1827
02:00:04,600 --> 02:00:10,000
self a new social force, quoting from the machiavelians, the

1828
02:00:10,000 --> 02:00:14,279
production executives and organizers of the industrial process, officials trained

1829
02:00:14,319 --> 02:00:18,439
in the manipulation of the great labor organizations, and the administrators,

1830
02:00:18,680 --> 02:00:21,880
bureau chiefs and commissaurs developed in the executive branch of

1831
02:00:21,920 --> 02:00:25,439
the unlimited modern state machines, and that the and that

1832
02:00:25,520 --> 02:00:29,239
the managers may function the economic and political structure must

1833
02:00:29,279 --> 02:00:33,079
be modified as it is now being modified, so as

1834
02:00:33,119 --> 02:00:36,039
to rest no longer on private ownership and small scale

1835
02:00:36,159 --> 02:00:40,119
nationalist sovereignty, but primarily upon state control of the economy

1836
02:00:40,159 --> 02:00:44,199
and continental or vast regional world political organization.

1837
02:00:46,000 --> 02:00:48,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I don't know about all that, but

1838
02:00:48,840 --> 02:00:51,920
I think we were talking about this yesterday. The line

1839
02:00:51,960 --> 02:00:56,560
between ownership and control is continually being blurred. And that's

1840
02:00:56,760 --> 02:00:58,640
one of the one of the ways you know that

1841
02:00:58,680 --> 02:01:01,439
we live in a managerial state. It is, you know,

1842
02:01:01,560 --> 02:01:05,399
the the owner of my business has very little control

1843
02:01:05,439 --> 02:01:07,960
over it other than the hiring and firing of me,

1844
02:01:09,039 --> 02:01:14,479
and like, I pretty much make command decisions every day

1845
02:01:14,600 --> 02:01:17,800
in his stead, and he gives me the like his

1846
02:01:17,880 --> 02:01:20,760
only function is to provide capital and give me the

1847
02:01:20,800 --> 02:01:24,880
thumbs up or the thumbs down. And that's not a

1848
02:01:25,239 --> 02:01:28,000
capitalist definition of ownership at all.

1849
02:01:28,479 --> 02:01:31,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, Viveka has been talking about this when it comes

1850
02:01:31,319 --> 02:01:34,680
to the president. He said that anybody who gets elected

1851
02:01:34,680 --> 02:01:38,319
should be in charge. So the person who gets elected,

1852
02:01:38,359 --> 02:01:40,840
I mean, and let's face it, he uses the term

1853
02:01:40,880 --> 02:01:43,319
managerial all the time. He talks about, you know how

1854
02:01:43,359 --> 02:01:46,239
we're a managerial state. He's read Burnham. He knows all

1855
02:01:46,239 --> 02:01:47,520
of this, and.

1856
02:01:48,079 --> 02:01:50,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just how how when when you have such

1857
02:01:50,520 --> 02:01:57,520
a complex technologically complex and and personnel, Uh, I guess

1858
02:01:57,600 --> 02:02:01,079
he humanly complex and to he like, you know, the

1859
02:02:01,319 --> 02:02:06,279
the executive branch. How how how does the president exercise ownership?

1860
02:02:06,680 --> 02:02:10,520
Speaker 2: Well, he has to be able to basically be able

1861
02:02:10,560 --> 02:02:12,159
to hire and fire whoever he wants.

1862
02:02:13,399 --> 02:02:16,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, yeah, that's part of it. Absolutely. I think

1863
02:02:16,039 --> 02:02:19,600
that's the best you can do. You know, going back

1864
02:02:19,640 --> 02:02:24,359
to Charles Haywood's episode on on Elon Musk, Elon Musk

1865
02:02:24,399 --> 02:02:28,279
will walk walk around a plant and make it no

1866
02:02:28,439 --> 02:02:32,000
less than a hundred command decisions during that visit, And

1867
02:02:32,119 --> 02:02:35,479
like that's how he actually exercises ownership to whatever degree,

1868
02:02:36,119 --> 02:02:40,119
you know, the physical limitations of time give him and

1869
02:02:41,560 --> 02:02:43,439
so like he's kind of a different beast too.

1870
02:02:44,079 --> 02:02:47,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, he needs the person needs to be in charge,

1871
02:02:47,920 --> 02:02:50,960
needs to FDR is the perfect example of it. FDR

1872
02:02:51,119 --> 02:02:55,319
was a king, He was a dictator. All the power rested,

1873
02:02:55,399 --> 02:02:58,520
all the power in the government rested in him. Nobody

1874
02:02:58,560 --> 02:03:04,119
did anything any thing without his say. So, this vast

1875
02:03:04,119 --> 02:03:07,600
reorganization will require the use of force, military machines, and

1876
02:03:07,680 --> 02:03:11,880
soldiers far more than did the old capitalist society. Hence,

1877
02:03:11,920 --> 02:03:14,800
the ruling class of managers will include more allions or

1878
02:03:14,840 --> 02:03:19,039
Class two residues than did the entrepreneurial elite. The political

1879
02:03:19,039 --> 02:03:22,720
formula of the managers will be democratists and will appeal

1880
02:03:22,760 --> 02:03:25,399
to the emotions and material once of the masses, but

1881
02:03:25,439 --> 02:03:31,079
the political reality will be autoautocracy, what Burnham calls bonapartism

1882
02:03:31,399 --> 02:03:35,039
represented by the Nazi, Stalinist and New Deal political style

1883
02:03:35,079 --> 02:03:41,359
and ideologies will prevail over the constitutionalist, decentralized parliamentary governments

1884
02:03:41,479 --> 02:03:42,680
of the capitalist era.

1885
02:03:44,159 --> 02:03:49,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's you know that the ignorance of managerialism as

1886
02:03:49,600 --> 02:03:53,359
the defining feature of our time right now is really

1887
02:03:53,560 --> 02:03:58,520
the biggest obstacle towards getting the normies to at least

1888
02:03:58,560 --> 02:04:03,119
a little bit closer to being able to effectively analyze reality.

1889
02:04:06,079 --> 02:04:08,119
Speaker 2: Ideology stands in the way of that.

1890
02:04:10,039 --> 02:04:13,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it doesn't have to, because most normies aren't

1891
02:04:13,319 --> 02:04:16,319
ideologically either. They just don't know this. We need to.

1892
02:04:16,399 --> 02:04:20,319
We need to wake them up, bro, And like, not

1893
02:04:20,319 --> 02:04:22,800
not because you know, we we hope to seize power anything,

1894
02:04:22,840 --> 02:04:24,600
but just because it's it's the right thing to do.

1895
02:04:24,960 --> 02:04:27,520
Speaker 2: Well. AA makes makes a point in this book that

1896
02:04:28,439 --> 02:04:31,079
if you wake up. Then if the normies get get

1897
02:04:31,079 --> 02:04:33,279
waken woken up too much, and too many of them

1898
02:04:33,319 --> 02:04:39,159
get woken up, then you suffer the you suffer revolution. Yeah.

1899
02:04:39,159 --> 02:04:42,600
And we're not talking We're talking about France, not not American.

1900
02:04:43,960 --> 02:04:45,279
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1901
02:04:45,520 --> 02:04:49,560
Speaker 2: The tendency of bonapartism and of the managerial class is totalitarian.

1902
02:04:50,159 --> 02:04:53,279
The managers want, need, and find valuable a state that

1903
02:04:53,399 --> 02:04:58,039
is unitary and all powerful. Intermediary and non political institutions

1904
02:04:58,039 --> 02:05:00,920
and groups are denounced and undermined if they do not

1905
02:05:00,960 --> 02:05:05,000
support the rising managerial powers. Not only does the managerial

1906
02:05:05,039 --> 02:05:08,199
class need an extended and oipotent state for its own

1907
02:05:08,239 --> 02:05:12,359
internal and international policies and goals, but also the crisis

1908
02:05:12,399 --> 02:05:15,920
of the Depression and the Second World War gives it

1909
02:05:16,000 --> 02:05:21,560
the opportunity to create one. Hence managerial propaganda. It denounces

1910
02:05:21,600 --> 02:05:26,960
the entrepreneurial class and its supportive institutions churches, non politicized

1911
02:05:27,000 --> 02:05:33,199
labor unions, small businessmen, schools, the opposition press, local political institutions,

1912
02:05:33,359 --> 02:05:37,560
the Congress itself, and seeks to portray them as reactionary,

1913
02:05:37,760 --> 02:05:41,800
parochial and responsible for the present crisis and its misery.

1914
02:05:43,159 --> 02:05:47,800
Only by destroying and moving beyond these obsolescent forces. Can

1915
02:05:47,840 --> 02:05:54,680
the crisis be resolved? Burnham was not happy. Do we

1916
02:05:54,720 --> 02:06:05,560
stop there? I mean, you just describe reality. Bro Burnham

1917
02:06:05,600 --> 02:06:09,479
was not happy about the totaltarian vector of managerial society

1918
02:06:10,039 --> 02:06:15,760
private capitalist ownership of the economy. He wrote, quote meant

1919
02:06:15,800 --> 02:06:19,399
a dispersion of economic power and a partial separation between

1920
02:06:19,399 --> 02:06:22,880
economic and other social forces in a manner that prevented

1921
02:06:22,920 --> 02:06:27,880
the concentration of an overwhelming single social force. Today, the

1922
02:06:27,920 --> 02:06:32,239
advance of the managerial revolution is everywhere, concentrating economic power

1923
02:06:32,239 --> 02:06:35,199
in the state apparatus, where it tends to unite with

1924
02:06:35,279 --> 02:06:41,520
control over the other great social forces, the army, education, labor, law,

1925
02:06:41,720 --> 02:06:46,680
the political bureaucracy, art and science. Even this development too,

1926
02:06:47,439 --> 02:06:52,239
society especially now, Yeah, this development too, tends to destroy

1927
02:06:52,319 --> 02:06:56,439
the basis for those social oppositions that keep freedom alive

1928
02:06:58,720 --> 02:07:04,000
the entrepreneur. The entrepreneurs are therefore correct to argue that

1929
02:07:04,039 --> 02:07:07,119
the New Deal and other managerial policies were a threat

1930
02:07:07,199 --> 02:07:11,640
to freedom. But the entrepreneurial former formulas of market capitalism,

1931
02:07:11,800 --> 02:07:15,920
a limited state, and national sovereignty had lost their credibility

1932
02:07:16,680 --> 02:07:20,359
In any case, the debate between the conservative see, that's

1933
02:07:20,359 --> 02:07:23,239
something that people just don't realize people who are for

1934
02:07:23,439 --> 02:07:29,000
market capitalism, a limited state, and national sovereignty understand that

1935
02:07:30,159 --> 02:07:32,520
they don't. They're not willing to accept that it's lost

1936
02:07:32,560 --> 02:07:35,680
their credibility, and they they think.

1937
02:07:35,520 --> 02:07:39,119
Speaker 1: That they don't understand where we are right now in history.

1938
02:07:39,159 --> 02:07:42,520
They don't know where they're at. We're past that, where

1939
02:07:42,520 --> 02:07:45,199
you're now, and like those days are over, they're not

1940
02:07:45,239 --> 02:07:46,760
coming back, yea, and.

1941
02:07:46,800 --> 02:07:50,199
Speaker 2: To constantly you know it, well, no, this is the

1942
02:07:50,239 --> 02:07:52,079
way things are done, this is the way things should be.

1943
02:07:52,159 --> 02:07:55,439
That this is what guarantees the most individual freedom. Bro,

1944
02:07:56,680 --> 02:07:57,399
We're beyond it.

1945
02:07:57,640 --> 02:07:57,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1946
02:07:57,880 --> 02:07:58,239
Speaker 2: Freedom.

1947
02:07:58,840 --> 02:08:00,479
Speaker 1: My favorite question for them to do?

1948
02:08:00,560 --> 02:08:05,439
Speaker 2: What freedom to do? What I had I wouldn't even

1949
02:08:05,479 --> 02:08:08,000
say who it was, but I had a libertarian in

1950
02:08:08,039 --> 02:08:11,039
my d MS today who's just freaking out. He's like,

1951
02:08:11,680 --> 02:08:15,319
why are there so many libertarians who argue for like

1952
02:08:15,520 --> 02:08:21,079
that the most heinous stuff and stuff that's illegal and

1953
02:08:21,119 --> 02:08:23,600
not only illegal, but would be considered immoral by the

1954
02:08:23,640 --> 02:08:28,000
majority of the West at least, is okay?

1955
02:08:29,680 --> 02:08:32,520
Speaker 1: Well, they they took a legal theory and turned it

1956
02:08:32,520 --> 02:08:35,560
into an ideology. Like somebody said that in one of

1957
02:08:35,600 --> 02:08:37,279
the threads. I was like, yeah, pretty much, Dave.

1958
02:08:37,439 --> 02:08:39,159
Speaker 2: Dave had a thread today said that.

1959
02:08:40,239 --> 02:08:42,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it was Dave. Yeah, you took a legal

1960
02:08:42,720 --> 02:08:45,000
theory like a dry what's supposed to be a dry

1961
02:08:45,520 --> 02:08:49,159
not fun legal theory, and turn it into your entire identity,

1962
02:08:49,520 --> 02:08:53,279
like good job. You are just a piece of human

1963
02:08:53,319 --> 02:08:57,239
trash that will never yet and you will until until you.

1964
02:08:57,119 --> 02:09:03,600
Speaker 2: Stop and the inevitable end of your of your theoretical

1965
02:09:04,039 --> 02:09:08,239
whatever is talking about whether possession of childborn is a crime.

1966
02:09:09,520 --> 02:09:11,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's why, like, if if they were, I

1967
02:09:12,000 --> 02:09:14,079
shouldn't say they're pieces of trash that will never amount

1968
02:09:14,119 --> 02:09:16,800
to anything, because then I just wouldn't care. But it's

1969
02:09:16,840 --> 02:09:22,159
the the the proactive part of libertarianism is making sure

1970
02:09:22,199 --> 02:09:26,520
that you and more importantly, your children are propagandas to that.

1971
02:09:26,800 --> 02:09:29,359
And they're just you know, they're not as bad as

1972
02:09:29,439 --> 02:09:32,479
leftists because they don't hold any power whatsoever. They're just

1973
02:09:33,239 --> 02:09:35,680
like I wouldn't I wouldn't let them babysit my kids.

1974
02:09:35,840 --> 02:09:38,520
Speaker 2: Well, I think the biggest problem with it is is

1975
02:09:38,560 --> 02:09:42,960
that these free market principles, and these these free principles

1976
02:09:43,039 --> 02:09:49,439
are so easily the language of that is so easily

1977
02:09:49,479 --> 02:09:52,520
adopted by people in power, and then.

1978
02:09:52,840 --> 02:09:56,359
Speaker 1: It's it's so Jewish it's.

1979
02:09:56,000 --> 02:10:00,680
Speaker 2: So easily adopted by people in power who will say, oh,

1980
02:10:00,680 --> 02:10:04,239
look we have free trade, and it's like, well, no,

1981
02:10:04,439 --> 02:10:05,880
but that's not real free trade.

1982
02:10:06,800 --> 02:10:09,880
Speaker 1: We're shipping in, Yeah, we're we're shipping in sex toys

1983
02:10:09,880 --> 02:10:10,640
for your toddler.

1984
02:10:10,920 --> 02:10:13,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then and then free trade has never been tried.

1985
02:10:13,920 --> 02:10:16,199
Why are you using that term? And it's like, well,

1986
02:10:17,199 --> 02:10:20,279
because it's so easily everything, everything you come up with

1987
02:10:20,359 --> 02:10:21,680
canon will be used against you.

1988
02:10:23,159 --> 02:10:26,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, everything will be manipulated, which, you know, if

1989
02:10:27,039 --> 02:10:29,640
they want to know how, then they should watch this episode.

1990
02:10:31,039 --> 02:10:34,079
Speaker 2: In any case, the debate between the conservative spokesman for

1991
02:10:34,159 --> 02:10:37,720
the old line capitalist class and the Marxist and the

1992
02:10:37,760 --> 02:10:41,840
democratics utalitarians who defend the rising managerial class as a

1993
02:10:41,880 --> 02:10:46,119
debate and ideology and myths that express a contest for

1994
02:10:46,239 --> 02:10:51,720
control over the despotic and bonapartist political order, which they

1995
02:10:51,760 --> 02:10:56,840
both anticipate. The apologists for the managers would destroy all

1996
02:10:56,880 --> 02:11:01,199
liberty and juridical defense in pursuit of utapianism, and the

1997
02:11:01,239 --> 02:11:05,119
apologists of traditional capitalism are simply whistling in the wind.

1998
02:11:05,199 --> 02:11:09,119
For quote, it is in any case impossible to return

1999
02:11:09,199 --> 02:11:12,000
to private capitalism.

2000
02:11:12,239 --> 02:11:15,520
Speaker 1: See yeah, I mean, one thing I have to hand

2001
02:11:15,560 --> 02:11:20,319
it to, you know, uh, whether conscious or not Malthusians

2002
02:11:20,600 --> 02:11:28,039
is that they're not utopian. I gotta respect him for

2003
02:11:28,119 --> 02:11:31,359
that what everybody else seems to be and maybe quote

2004
02:11:31,359 --> 02:11:35,920
of the episode, Hey, at least they're not utopian.

2005
02:11:36,279 --> 02:11:39,479
Speaker 2: Yet. Burnham was not entirely pessimistic about the survival of

2006
02:11:39,520 --> 02:11:43,359
some liberty. He suggested that some social opposition might persist

2007
02:11:43,439 --> 02:11:46,159
or develop, the would or develop that would create a

2008
02:11:46,239 --> 02:11:49,239
balance of forces in the managerial elite, and he also

2009
02:11:49,359 --> 02:11:52,000
hoped that the principles of the Machiavelian science of power

2010
02:11:52,039 --> 02:11:55,479
would inform the new ruling class of its real interests

2011
02:11:55,520 --> 02:11:58,920
and of the utility of liberty. Now, anybody who's like

2012
02:11:59,039 --> 02:12:03,359
out there, anybody who's out there promoting liberty and everything,

2013
02:12:03,560 --> 02:12:05,600
just read that and went that's me.

2014
02:12:10,159 --> 02:12:13,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's uh, it's very much limited to utilitarianism. And

2015
02:12:13,960 --> 02:12:19,800
that's also kind of a product of man. Uh, the

2016
02:12:20,199 --> 02:12:29,279
shift to utilitarian I guess utilitarian metaphysics is is a

2017
02:12:29,319 --> 02:12:35,279
product of the rise of revolutionary Marxism and that energy

2018
02:12:35,279 --> 02:12:39,760
being transferred, the revolutionary energy being transferred into the managerial class.

2019
02:12:40,520 --> 02:12:45,439
They're all it's all utility. How many utils will will

2020
02:12:45,439 --> 02:12:49,119
you generate if I give you a stimmy check? Oh? Well,

2021
02:12:49,119 --> 02:12:52,680
a utils? Okay, you're getting a stemmy check. How many

2022
02:12:52,760 --> 02:12:54,800
utils will I generate if I put a bullet in

2023
02:12:54,840 --> 02:12:55,159
your head?

2024
02:12:57,800 --> 02:13:02,279
Speaker 2: M He developed alliant defense of liberty and juridical defense

2025
02:13:02,319 --> 02:13:05,840
on the grounds that they actually enhanced the cohesion, strength,

2026
02:13:05,880 --> 02:13:12,359
and flexibility of a society rather than limited the Machiavellians problem.

2027
02:13:12,640 --> 02:13:17,239
Probably Burnham's most widely misunderstood book. George Orwell appears to

2028
02:13:17,279 --> 02:13:19,640
have seen it in a blueprint for the Double Think

2029
02:13:19,720 --> 02:13:25,319
of nineteen eighty four. The sociologist David Spitz took a

2030
02:13:25,359 --> 02:13:28,239
similar view of the book and included Burnham as an

2031
02:13:28,279 --> 02:13:33,279
anti democratic ideologue. The very subtitle of Burnham's book, Defenders

2032
02:13:33,279 --> 02:13:37,960
of Freedom, should be sufficient to refute this misinterpretation, and

2033
02:13:38,039 --> 02:13:39,880
it may be that some critics of the book have

2034
02:13:40,000 --> 02:13:42,600
not read far beyond the subtitle.

2035
02:13:43,479 --> 02:13:46,000
Speaker 1: That's me, that's me.

2036
02:13:46,159 --> 02:13:48,680
Speaker 2: With every book, it is true that Burnham described the

2037
02:13:48,720 --> 02:13:51,960
coming society and the starkest language. Yet this style is

2038
02:13:52,000 --> 02:13:55,880
typical of Machiavelli and his disciples, and is appropriate to

2039
02:13:55,920 --> 02:14:00,399
their claim to realism and disavowal of ideology and sent cements.

2040
02:14:01,840 --> 02:14:05,920
Speaker 1: So I've actually never read The Machiavellians. But does Burnham

2041
02:14:06,239 --> 02:14:11,079
adopt a different style than say, The Managerial Revolution, Like,

2042
02:14:11,880 --> 02:14:13,520
is it a noticeably different tone?

2043
02:14:14,520 --> 02:14:16,800
Speaker 2: Well, no, he has a very distinct way of writing.

2044
02:14:17,000 --> 02:14:19,039
I mean, if you if you read The Managerial Revolution,

2045
02:14:19,119 --> 02:14:20,600
you read Suicide of the West, I mean it's the

2046
02:14:20,640 --> 02:14:23,000
same you know, it's the same person writing it.

2047
02:14:24,159 --> 02:14:26,760
Speaker 1: All right, all right, I thought I thought he switched

2048
02:14:26,800 --> 02:14:29,239
up his tone, which would be insane, That.

2049
02:14:29,479 --> 02:14:33,920
Speaker 2: Would be nuts. It is difficult to see how any

2050
02:14:33,920 --> 02:14:37,159
familiarity with the contents and arguments of The Machiavelians could

2051
02:14:37,159 --> 02:14:41,079
overlook Burnham's exposition of the theory of juridical defense, his

2052
02:14:41,199 --> 02:14:45,319
criticism of managerial political tendencies, or his own defensive liberty.

2053
02:14:45,640 --> 02:14:48,239
The fact that many critics have missed these points suggest

2054
02:14:48,279 --> 02:14:52,079
that Burnham's discussion of ideology applies to the authors of

2055
02:14:52,119 --> 02:14:59,800
such criticism. And that's what mister Samuel Francis had to

2056
02:15:00,000 --> 02:15:01,680
say about The Mafia Villans.

2057
02:15:02,880 --> 02:15:06,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I mean it's I like these kind of

2058
02:15:06,439 --> 02:15:11,000
critiques that aren't really critiques, it's just an an exposition

2059
02:15:11,119 --> 02:15:15,840
of it. And I I try to do that myself

2060
02:15:15,880 --> 02:15:19,560
with some original works, and it never works so well

2061
02:15:19,560 --> 02:15:22,159
for me because I'm just not that eloquent.

2062
02:15:23,159 --> 02:15:26,560
Speaker 2: Now it's.

2063
02:15:26,520 --> 02:15:33,039
Speaker 1: I do podcast reviews in Milwaukee tool reviews.

2064
02:15:34,279 --> 02:15:36,239
Speaker 2: It's one of those books that when you read it,

2065
02:15:36,319 --> 02:15:36,920
you're going to have.

2066
02:15:37,479 --> 02:15:37,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2067
02:15:38,039 --> 02:15:40,119
Speaker 2: It's one of those books that if you're a if

2068
02:15:40,119 --> 02:15:45,680
you're a hardcore ideologue, you may not read. You may

2069
02:15:45,680 --> 02:15:48,439
not get it the first time. Yeah, you may have.

2070
02:15:49,319 --> 02:15:50,760
It's one of those things that a couple of years

2071
02:15:50,760 --> 02:15:53,279
down the line, maybe something that was like somebody told

2072
02:15:53,319 --> 02:15:56,359
me at the beginning of twenty nineteen to read Jarvin's

2073
02:15:56,399 --> 02:15:59,239
Why I'm Not a Libertarian? And I read it, and

2074
02:15:59,279 --> 02:16:01,159
I'm like, a couple of good points in here. I

2075
02:16:01,159 --> 02:16:05,359
don't care. Twenty twenty rolls around. Yeah, twenty twenty rolls around.

2076
02:16:06,479 --> 02:16:10,199
Everything happens. We start getting into the summer, yeah, and

2077
02:16:10,439 --> 02:16:15,319
you know, cities are on fire, and you know, I'm like, yeah,

2078
02:16:15,399 --> 02:16:19,680
let me read that again. And I'm like, oh, oh, yeah, okay,

2079
02:16:19,880 --> 02:16:21,920
And then I read it again like a year ago,

2080
02:16:21,960 --> 02:16:24,279
and I was just like, this is this makes more

2081
02:16:24,359 --> 02:16:27,399
sense than anything than anything I've ever read as far

2082
02:16:27,479 --> 02:16:31,199
as a critique of a critique of libertarianism.

2083
02:16:31,840 --> 02:16:34,600
Speaker 1: I did try to I did try to crack the

2084
02:16:34,600 --> 02:16:38,319
managerial Uh not the Machiavellians back in the day when

2085
02:16:38,399 --> 02:16:42,280
Jarvin was talking about it, and I couldn't get through

2086
02:16:42,319 --> 02:16:44,879
it because I just I was in that same phase

2087
02:16:45,040 --> 02:16:48,239
like this. None of this resonates with me. None of

2088
02:16:48,239 --> 02:16:52,920
it's particularly interesting or prescient. And now as we're reading this,

2089
02:16:53,120 --> 02:16:57,799
I'm like, all right, I wish I talked more, but

2090
02:16:57,959 --> 02:16:59,559
like I'm too busy agreeing with it.

2091
02:17:00,079 --> 02:17:04,760
Speaker 2: Know, it's there's a way. There's a way you want

2092
02:17:04,760 --> 02:17:08,479
politics to be, and there's where what politics is now.

2093
02:17:08,600 --> 02:17:10,479
And if you want politics to be a certain way,

2094
02:17:10,760 --> 02:17:12,319
you're going to have to take You have to take

2095
02:17:12,360 --> 02:17:13,079
power and do it.

2096
02:17:15,000 --> 02:17:17,319
Speaker 1: At the at the very least, you have to acknowledge

2097
02:17:17,360 --> 02:17:21,440
that the only form of society you're ever going to

2098
02:17:21,440 --> 02:17:24,360
be in some form of an oligarchy, which is a

2099
02:17:24,479 --> 02:17:26,639
huge hurdle for a lot of people.

2100
02:17:27,000 --> 02:17:31,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's well, there may be a white pill in there.

2101
02:17:31,639 --> 02:17:35,520
If you really understand elite theory, if e LA, if

2102
02:17:35,520 --> 02:17:38,120
you embrace it, if you realize that it's always a

2103
02:17:38,159 --> 02:17:44,159
small group of people in charge, there's a chance that

2104
02:17:45,120 --> 02:17:47,840
you could actually be a part of a group that

2105
02:17:48,239 --> 02:17:51,360
gets those that helps to get those people in charge,

2106
02:17:51,360 --> 02:17:54,319
people who are on your side, who at least you know.

2107
02:17:54,319 --> 02:17:56,319
It's like we've been talking about with the pay Pal mafia.

2108
02:17:56,600 --> 02:17:58,680
It's like, do I think the guys in the pay

2109
02:17:58,719 --> 02:18:02,159
Pal mafia agree with me? Probably not. I mean there's

2110
02:18:02,239 --> 02:18:06,920
probably maybe a couple of them. But are they do

2111
02:18:07,000 --> 02:18:10,040
they hate me? No? I don't think so.

2112
02:18:10,280 --> 02:18:15,200
Speaker 1: And if you're young enough, especially now where everything is politicized,

2113
02:18:15,280 --> 02:18:20,000
and you're young enough, you can orient your life towards,

2114
02:18:20,319 --> 02:18:25,159
at least your material life towards you know, getting involved

2115
02:18:25,280 --> 02:18:29,559
in industries that no matter who's in charge, like especially

2116
02:18:29,600 --> 02:18:31,200
if it's the elites you think are going to be

2117
02:18:31,200 --> 02:18:35,639
in charge or you like, you can be a beneficiary

2118
02:18:35,799 --> 02:18:39,760
of a of a of a circulation of elites, if

2119
02:18:39,840 --> 02:18:43,159
not from the current ones. That's kind of my whole

2120
02:18:43,159 --> 02:18:46,639
shtick is like, get get into an industry or a

2121
02:18:46,680 --> 02:18:51,120
career that is circulation of elites proof. Like not recession proof,

2122
02:18:51,159 --> 02:18:54,479
because we're done with we're probably done with recessions, but uh,

2123
02:18:55,399 --> 02:18:56,879
circulation of elites proof.

2124
02:18:57,920 --> 02:18:59,360
Speaker 2: Oh and there are a lot of those, you know.

2125
02:18:59,399 --> 02:19:01,719
I have people who contact me all the time now

2126
02:19:01,760 --> 02:19:04,239
and say, you know, it's like finally got myself to

2127
02:19:04,280 --> 02:19:07,520
the point where I'm pretty sure that you know, no

2128
02:19:07,559 --> 02:19:09,760
matter what would happen, I'll always be able to turn

2129
02:19:09,799 --> 02:19:13,079
it and come and and I mean that's that's important.

2130
02:19:13,280 --> 02:19:16,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean yeah, a certain level of self sufficiency

2131
02:19:17,120 --> 02:19:21,680
and uh preparedness. Absolutely I am woefully and you know

2132
02:19:21,719 --> 02:19:23,680
I'm trying to have a kid and all that too.

2133
02:19:23,760 --> 02:19:26,520
And you know that I'm telling you that episode I

2134
02:19:26,559 --> 02:19:31,639
listened to listen to today with a Cat Cat Girl

2135
02:19:31,719 --> 02:19:35,319
Koulak kind of broken mind, just putting me in a

2136
02:19:35,360 --> 02:19:36,600
real bad mood all day.

2137
02:19:36,799 --> 02:19:40,319
Speaker 2: You came into the group I recommend it to the listeners.

2138
02:19:41,079 --> 02:19:42,760
You came into the group chat and you were like,

2139
02:19:42,879 --> 02:19:44,639
all right, I'm gonna kill myself now.

2140
02:19:45,840 --> 02:19:48,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2141
02:19:48,319 --> 02:19:51,799
Speaker 2: Oh man, all right, well let's let's end this. Uh

2142
02:19:51,840 --> 02:19:54,479
where can people find your work when you do work?

2143
02:19:56,239 --> 02:20:00,000
Speaker 1: So you can find me at bt W A Underscore

2144
02:20:00,079 --> 02:20:03,959
turns on x formally not as Twitter, and you can

2145
02:20:04,000 --> 02:20:08,319
find me every single Wednesday live on Timeline Earth.

2146
02:20:08,680 --> 02:20:10,760
Speaker 2: All right, thanks Daron, appreciate it.

2147
02:20:12,000 --> 02:20:13,200
Speaker 1: Yep, thank you for having me