1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:38,560 in crime. 14 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 3: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murderer. I'm Kristin Dilly. 15 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas, and we're. 16 00:00:45,799 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 3: Joined today by doctor Jeffrey Smaalden, author of that Beast, 17 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,520 was not me one forensic psychologist in five decades of 18 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:58,399 conversations with killers. Doctor Smalldon, thank you for joining. 19 00:00:58,159 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 5: Us, Thank you for having me to be there. 20 00:01:01,479 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 3: Start by telling us a little bit about yourself in 21 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:05,879 this fascinating career that you've built. 22 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:11,079 Speaker 5: I'm retired now after about a quarter century in private 23 00:01:11,159 --> 00:01:16,760 practice as a forensic psychologist. During that twenty five years, 24 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,359 my practice was based in Columbus, Ohio, where I live, 25 00:01:21,519 --> 00:01:25,400 but I consulted on about three hundred death penalty cases 26 00:01:25,719 --> 00:01:30,879 originating in more than fifty five counties throughout Ohio, and 27 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,000 worked on some death penalty cases in other states and 28 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:37,879 federal court as well. I also was frequently the court 29 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:42,719 appointed expert actually probably close to fifteen hundred times in 30 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:48,640 matters pertaining to child custody, so my entire practice wasn't criminal. 31 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,599 Also consulted on civil cases a lot of competency to 32 00:01:53,640 --> 00:02:00,159 stand trial and criminal responsibility aka sanity cases. One of 33 00:02:00,239 --> 00:02:03,519 the things that I tried to emphasize in my book, 34 00:02:03,599 --> 00:02:06,760 and I thought was one of the most interesting aspects 35 00:02:06,799 --> 00:02:10,840 of my journey was the strange path that I took 36 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,680 to become a forensic psychologist as a young man. That 37 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:16,479 thought had never crossed my mind. 38 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:22,479 Speaker 2: One thing I struggle with Jeff is the term forensic 39 00:02:22,599 --> 00:02:27,719 psychologist for the civilians here, which is tens of thousands 40 00:02:27,759 --> 00:02:30,520 of us here on Mind over Murder. What the heck 41 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:32,240 is a forensic psychologist? 42 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 5: I'm glad you asked that actually, Bill, because that question 43 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,919 comes up frequently when I meet people and tell them 44 00:02:40,159 --> 00:02:43,919 that I had a career as a forensic psychologist. Immediately 45 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:48,680 that word opens up the file and their brain that 46 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:55,919 contains pathology pictures and no crime scene analysis. And that's 47 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,800 not what I did at all. Most of my and 48 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,719 I'm going to talk about the criminal part of my practice. 49 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:08,360 Most of what I did was evaluate suspects after they 50 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:12,319 had been arrested. I wasn't a profiler. I wasn't the 51 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:17,960 person trying to identify the as yet unidentified a suspect 52 00:03:18,039 --> 00:03:22,759 and a violent crime. Typically, defense attorneys, since they were 53 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,639 the ones who had a client needing to be evaluated, 54 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,800 were the ones who would contact me following the defendant's arrest. 55 00:03:30,759 --> 00:03:33,759 In a death penalty case, they would ask me to 56 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,800 evaluate their client with an eye toward whether there were 57 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,280 any issues that they should be thinking about in terms 58 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,599 of a mental health defense a trial. Is there anything 59 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:49,159 that points toward a not guilty by reason of insanity defense? 60 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:53,319 For example, are there any issues relevant to the competency 61 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:59,159 to stand trial question? And I'm still speaking specifically about 62 00:03:59,199 --> 00:04:03,680 death penalty case. Assume that there's a strong likelihood our 63 00:04:03,719 --> 00:04:08,159 client will be found guilty of these crimes he's been 64 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:12,120 charged with. If he is, that'll mean we'll go to 65 00:04:12,159 --> 00:04:19,560 a sentencing hearing. And what information about his background and 66 00:04:19,639 --> 00:04:24,439 so on can you find that might be found relevant 67 00:04:24,519 --> 00:04:27,120 by members of a jury when they need to make 68 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:31,920 the decision about whether this person should die or be 69 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,480 allowed to live the rest of his life in prison. 70 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 2: When you're expressing opinions like that in a death penalty case, Jeff, 71 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,959 are you one of the experts who's sworn in and 72 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,240 do you have to testify about what your findings would 73 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,240 be or are you off behind the scenes expert. 74 00:04:49,959 --> 00:04:53,439 Speaker 5: No, I would be a testifying expert if the case 75 00:04:53,519 --> 00:04:56,399 went to trial, and a lot of death penalty cases 76 00:04:56,639 --> 00:05:00,240 never do they get plat out before trial. If they 77 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,319 go to trial, I would be I think I can 78 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:06,639 only remember two death powty cases where I appeared as 79 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:11,240 an expert witness during the guilt innocence phase of the trial, 80 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,120 the first phase. Typically my role would be in the 81 00:05:15,199 --> 00:05:20,720 second phase, typically referred to as the sentencing or mitigation phase, 82 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,079 and at that point I would be a live witness, 83 00:05:24,199 --> 00:05:27,920 appearing before the jury to share my findings. 84 00:05:28,639 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 3: As you mentioned, you took a very interesting route to 85 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,720 get where you are. A lot of that information is 86 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,639 told in your buck That beast was not me and 87 00:05:40,759 --> 00:05:44,399 that title, which is great. I really love it. It's 88 00:05:44,439 --> 00:05:48,120 a quote from Charles Manson. Why don't we start this 89 00:05:48,199 --> 00:05:52,279 conversation down the serial killer path by having you tell 90 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,800 us about your relationship with Charles Manson? 91 00:05:55,879 --> 00:06:00,639 Speaker 5: My relationship so to speak. Yeah, I was in my 92 00:06:00,879 --> 00:06:05,519 early twenties, a senior in high school, the generally rule 93 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,839 following son of an FBI agent, and I developed a 94 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:14,399 fascination with the Manson case, which had meant nothing to 95 00:06:14,439 --> 00:06:17,600 me at all in August of nineteen sixty nine when 96 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,680 it occurred, I was a sophomore in high school. I 97 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,160 didn't pay attention to the case at all. But when 98 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,759 I was in England in nineteen seventy three, hitchhiking around 99 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:32,920 before my fall semester of my junior year abroad in Cambridge, 100 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,680 I read a book about that case that I just 101 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:40,399 thought was incredibly interesting. It was Ed Sanders' book The Family. 102 00:06:40,959 --> 00:06:45,279 And then in nineteen seventy four, which by my senior 103 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,639 year in college was seventy four seventy five, I read 104 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,560 Helter Skelter, Her the best selling true crime book of 105 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:57,680 all time about Manson case by one of the prosecutors 106 00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:59,680 in the case. And as I say in my book, 107 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:04,360 and I think this suggests something a little bit pathological 108 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,120 about myself. I read. I read that book in a 109 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,399 single sitting from about three. I started at three in 110 00:07:11,439 --> 00:07:15,680 the afternoon, kept drinking coffee all night, finished it late 111 00:07:15,759 --> 00:07:19,279 morning the next day. And I was just so fascinated 112 00:07:19,519 --> 00:07:22,720 by it. And one of the things that fascinated me 113 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,600 the most was that a lot of these young people 114 00:07:26,639 --> 00:07:31,319 who had followed Manson and acted at his behest sounded 115 00:07:31,399 --> 00:07:34,759 like they came from backgrounds not that much different from 116 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:39,120 my own middle class and I couldn't figure it out 117 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,560 that they would be willing to kill for this career 118 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,879 criminal with a fourth or fifth grade education. And one 119 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:50,319 day in class my professor I was taking a class 120 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,920 in abnormal psychology, and my professor mentioned that he had 121 00:07:53,959 --> 00:07:56,720 read Helder Skelter. So I thought, I need to talk 122 00:07:56,759 --> 00:07:59,680 with him about this book that I'm so fascinated by. 123 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,199 So I stayed after class that day and I raised 124 00:08:03,279 --> 00:08:05,959 this issue with him about these young people who had 125 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:10,600 followed him, who came often from middle class backgrounds, and 126 00:08:10,639 --> 00:08:13,040 I said, I wonder if it's a little more complicated 127 00:08:13,079 --> 00:08:15,040 than you would get the sense it is from the 128 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,120 media portrayals of these people. And he said, have you 129 00:08:18,199 --> 00:08:22,839 ever thought of writing them? And I said no, never, 130 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,720 not once. The thought of writing members of the Manson 131 00:08:25,759 --> 00:08:29,319 family had never crossed my mind. And he said it 132 00:08:29,399 --> 00:08:32,360 might be interesting to hear what they sound like on paper. 133 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,559 So I eventually did that, and that was the start 134 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:41,480 of my correspondence with Manson. Lynette's Squeaky Fromey, who later 135 00:08:42,159 --> 00:08:45,360 earned her own brand of infamy in September of nineteen 136 00:08:45,799 --> 00:08:50,279 seventy five by attempting to assassinate then President Ford and 137 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,799 a number of other members of the Manson family. But 138 00:08:52,879 --> 00:08:57,679 getting back to your question, Kristen, I was apparently the 139 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,440 only person who hadn't received the memory caption, don't try 140 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:07,120 to bullshit Charles Manson, And so I did try to 141 00:09:07,159 --> 00:09:12,200 bullshit Charles Manson in what way? I remember sitting down 142 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,799 to write him my first letter. I knew where he was, 143 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:19,039 I'm in fulsome prison, and basically I just wanted to 144 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:22,200 write a letter that he would respond to. So, yeah, 145 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,799 I was twenty one years old. I was willing to 146 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,399 be manipulative, and I told him that my main interest 147 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,919 was in his music and his lyrics, because I knew 148 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,559 he was a frustrated musician. And he went back and said, 149 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,200 this is so much shit. Don't bother me with this stuff, 150 00:09:39,519 --> 00:09:44,200 music and poetry for what It doesn't mean anything. Basically, 151 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,480 if you're prepared to be real with me, write me 152 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:52,639 back if so, or if not, stop bothering me. And 153 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,240 so I was a little taken aback because I didn't 154 00:09:55,279 --> 00:10:00,039 really want to make Charles Manson angry with me. This 155 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,879 was nineteen seventy five, six years after the murders, and 156 00:10:04,919 --> 00:10:08,159 so I wrote him back a more honest letter, and 157 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,399 I told him I was a senior in college. I'd 158 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,399 read Helder Skelter, another book about his case and so on. 159 00:10:13,879 --> 00:10:16,600 I was interested in it, and I think the hook 160 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,879 maybe I told him that I was at least open 161 00:10:20,919 --> 00:10:24,600 to the possibility that the authors of these books about 162 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:29,120 the case hadn't gotten everything right. So he wrote me back. 163 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,840 What I later learned for Manson was quite a thoughtful, 164 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,960 contemplative letter. And write at the beginning of this letter, 165 00:10:38,039 --> 00:10:41,080 he said, take all you've ever heard about the family 166 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,799 and think about it as backwards our side of the 167 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:49,120 family was never told that beast was not me, but 168 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,120 it's what everyone needs me to be, so they make 169 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,639 me up to be a reflection of society's fears and lies. 170 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,360 And then the letter went on and on and ended 171 00:11:00,399 --> 00:11:05,759 in a poetic go and start a garden wherever you walk, Jeff, 172 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,919 you are the new world. If you do these things, 173 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,000 there'll be no need to communicate with me anymore at 174 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,440 all and anyway. So that letter I always regard as 175 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,960 the first proper letter I received from Manson, and really 176 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,399 the start of a correspondence that then spanned a period 177 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:24,679 of about two years. 178 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,399 Speaker 2: How many letters back and forth do you think? 179 00:11:28,759 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 5: Hard to say? I mean, there were quite a few postcards, 180 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,840 quite a few letters. I would say. Manson probably wrote 181 00:11:34,919 --> 00:11:38,240 me fifteen or twenty times. Hm. 182 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,559 Speaker 2: Wow. So he wasn't interested in cutting off the communication 183 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,600 when he said, go forth and do these worthwhile things. 184 00:11:46,279 --> 00:11:49,000 He was willing to have a conversation with you on 185 00:11:49,039 --> 00:11:50,080 an ongoing basis. 186 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,759 Speaker 5: It would appear he seemed willing, though I certainly don't 187 00:11:53,799 --> 00:11:57,720 want to leave the impression that Manson seemed eager to 188 00:11:57,759 --> 00:12:02,879 have Jeff Smolden as a correspondent. He never gave that impression, 189 00:12:03,279 --> 00:12:06,480 but he at least seemed open to hearing from me 190 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,600 until he didn't. At one point during the correspondence when 191 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:16,039 I did something that, for reasons I didn't understand at 192 00:12:16,039 --> 00:12:20,919 the time at all, made him extremely angry, and at 193 00:12:20,919 --> 00:12:25,039 that point I thought the correspondence was over, but then 194 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,600 he reached out to continue it. 195 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 3: How would you characterize Charles Manson? It does sound like 196 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,519 your correspondence with him, from what I read of it 197 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:39,720 was all over the place. Some days you said he 198 00:12:39,759 --> 00:12:43,559 was very contemplative, but I can't imagine that being his 199 00:12:43,799 --> 00:12:47,919 normal everyday state. So if you had to be English 200 00:12:47,919 --> 00:12:50,320 teachers going to ask you to throw some adjectives out there, 201 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,559 how would you characterize Charles Manson? G. 202 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,879 Speaker 5: Kristen, You don't. You're not willing to accept it. Contemplative 203 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,279 is Charles Manson in default setting? 204 00:13:02,159 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 2: He had plenty of time to think deep thoughts, that's 205 00:13:05,039 --> 00:13:05,519 for sure. 206 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 5: Well, you're absolutely correct about that, I might say, now, 207 00:13:10,799 --> 00:13:13,679 he was all over the map. Occasionally I would catch 208 00:13:13,759 --> 00:13:19,440 him in what seemed like a relatively contemplative mood. Other 209 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:26,919 times he was just consumed by paranoia and his own 210 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:31,759 sense of persecution and aggrievement. There were a couple of 211 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:37,159 laments that appeared over and over again in his letters. 212 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:42,480 He apparently didn't understand the conspiracy aspects of the law, 213 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:47,799 and he repeatedly said, I'm in here serving time for 214 00:13:48,039 --> 00:13:52,559 your world sins because you've made me into this epic 215 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:57,200 pariah that has no relationship with who I really am, 216 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,480 and I committed no crime. He said that over and 217 00:14:01,519 --> 00:14:04,759 over again. I committed no crime, by which I always 218 00:14:04,879 --> 00:14:08,240 assumed he meant, I'm not the one who committed these murders, 219 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:13,120 therefore I shouldn't have been found guilty of them. And 220 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,840 he denied, of course, that it was his direction that 221 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,399 caused these people to go out and commit these horrible murders. 222 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,559 So that was one of his repeated themes. Another one, 223 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,039 and it was illustrated in a fascinating way. Can I 224 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:35,600 tell a little story here? Sure about this interesting juncture? 225 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,399 In my correspondence with him, I said he had a 226 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:43,240 fourth or fifth grade education, and he repeatedly said, I 227 00:14:43,399 --> 00:14:46,480 can't write. I feel like these words are running out 228 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,480 the end of my pencil, and I can't control them. 229 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,960 I can't express myself to you in writing. He was 230 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:58,240 very frustrated with his inability to communicate, and he kept 231 00:14:58,279 --> 00:15:01,519 saying that he was convinced I was a woman writing 232 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,759 under a man's name because my handwriting was too neat. 233 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:10,200 He didn't speaking neat handwriting with men, and so he 234 00:15:10,279 --> 00:15:12,559 kept saying, I believe you're a woman writing under a 235 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,080 man's name. And I said, no, I'm not. I'm a 236 00:15:15,159 --> 00:15:18,960 senior in college and I'm beginning graduate school in the fall. 237 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:24,320 But he kept lamenting his own limitations as a writer. 238 00:15:25,559 --> 00:15:33,799 And then he began with escalating intensity, saying, send me pictures. 239 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,799 Stop writing these words are frustrating me. Send me pictures. 240 00:15:39,639 --> 00:15:43,679 And I thought, okay. I had sent Squeaky and her 241 00:15:43,759 --> 00:15:48,039 roommate Sandy Good, another devoted Manson follower. I had sent 242 00:15:48,279 --> 00:15:52,679 them a picture of me because they had explicitly asked 243 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,440 for one, and I made sure I chose a picture 244 00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:01,919 that looked nothing like me. I had the intrusive thoughts 245 00:16:01,919 --> 00:16:05,480 of these women coming to the Midwest and seeking me out, 246 00:16:05,879 --> 00:16:08,440 so I didn't want him to identify me when I 247 00:16:08,519 --> 00:16:13,559 walked out of my apartment in Valpariso, Indiana. But Manson 248 00:16:13,639 --> 00:16:16,519 never said send me a picture of you. He just said, 249 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:18,159 send me pictures. 250 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,919 Speaker 2: He wasn't specific about what he wanted photographs of. 251 00:16:22,399 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 5: He wasn't and I was too dim to figure it out. 252 00:16:25,679 --> 00:16:28,840 Looking back, he wanted a picture of me, and that's 253 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,120 why I mentioned the fact that he kept saying, you're 254 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,600 a woman writing after a man's name. He wanted a 255 00:16:34,639 --> 00:16:38,159 picture to confirm my identity. Who are you? What do 256 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,080 you look like? And I didn't get it. I didn't 257 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,879 pick up on that. I just thought he wanted pictures. 258 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,159 So I started thinking, well, what kind of picture might 259 00:16:47,279 --> 00:16:51,279 Charles Manson like? And I knew that one of his 260 00:16:51,399 --> 00:16:55,000 themes was society is evil and we need to go 261 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,000 to the desert and so on. And so I was 262 00:16:58,039 --> 00:17:01,720 reading an article in the Nation Geographic one day about 263 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,839 the search for the world's oldest people, and there was 264 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,960 a picture in there this, I think from South America somewhere, 265 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,279 a shepherd sitting on a wooden stool playing a wooden flute, 266 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,000 with a dog laying on the floor next to him, 267 00:17:17,039 --> 00:17:20,920 a pastoral kind of scene. And I thought it was 268 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,640 a totally benign choice on my part. I sent this 269 00:17:24,759 --> 00:17:26,640 picture to him. I didn't even put a post it 270 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,440 note on it saying hope you like this, Charlie or 271 00:17:29,519 --> 00:17:31,519 anything like that. I just put the picture in an 272 00:17:31,599 --> 00:17:35,480 envelope and sent it. And then about three or four 273 00:17:35,559 --> 00:17:39,400 days later I got the first and last air mail 274 00:17:39,559 --> 00:17:43,960 letter I've ever received from a maximum security prison. It 275 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:47,119 may have been the only stamp that Manson had available 276 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,480 to him at the time, but I saw that red 277 00:17:49,599 --> 00:17:52,480 airmail stamp that thought, oh, there's some kind of urgent 278 00:17:52,599 --> 00:17:56,279 message in this envelope, and in fact there was. He 279 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:01,119 just railed at me. He was absolutely few, said I 280 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,200 never realized what a fake and a phony you are, 281 00:18:04,319 --> 00:18:07,359 and called my mother all kinds of names, and went 282 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,880 on and on. By the third page, he was slashing 283 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,400 across the page with his pencil. You could tell he 284 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,079 was in a white hot fury. And at the end 285 00:18:17,079 --> 00:18:19,319 of the letter he said, I didn't like my picture, 286 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:24,759 I don't like your letters. Don't write me. And I thought, okay. 287 00:18:25,759 --> 00:18:27,640 I thought that was the end of it. And then 288 00:18:27,839 --> 00:18:32,440 two days later I got another letter from him, coming 289 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:36,319 as close to apologizing for something as I think Charles 290 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:40,640 Manson ever comes. He said, I might have been wrong 291 00:18:40,839 --> 00:18:44,759 to get so angry at you, and to assume that 292 00:18:44,759 --> 00:18:49,839 that you were trying to aggravate me. I've had a 293 00:18:49,839 --> 00:18:53,319 hard life and it's your job. That's how he put it, 294 00:18:53,319 --> 00:18:56,880 It's your job to understand I've been a hard life. 295 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:01,799 And then, in one of the late twentieth centuries great understatements, 296 00:19:01,839 --> 00:19:04,880 I'm sure, he said, I'm not really an easy person 297 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:05,839 to get along with. 298 00:19:07,039 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 2: Kidding we'd heard that, Charley, you. 299 00:19:13,079 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 5: Won't get any argument from me. 300 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. 301 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 5: But then in that letter and the reason I tell 302 00:19:18,799 --> 00:19:21,960 this story. In that letter, he sent me a picture 303 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,640 and it looked like it could have come from National 304 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,240 Geographic too. He was a picture of a mule with 305 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:33,240 its back piled high with I don't know some they 306 00:19:33,279 --> 00:19:36,240 look like bags of mult or something like that. And 307 00:19:36,279 --> 00:19:41,000 then Manson used a pencil to draw a line extending 308 00:19:41,279 --> 00:19:45,400 above the baggage on the mule's back, and then he 309 00:19:45,519 --> 00:19:48,359 drew lines to make it look like a globe. The 310 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,359 whole the theme being I'm carrying the weight of your 311 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,079 whole world on my shoulders, which one of the things 312 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:56,720 he would say over and over again. 313 00:19:57,839 --> 00:19:59,519 Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you a little bit about the 314 00:19:59,599 --> 00:20:02,519 legitition sticks of this. And this is the second time 315 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,240 we've had this kind of conversation, because we just interviewed 316 00:20:07,039 --> 00:20:12,720 Edna Cowell Martin, who is Ted Bundy's cousin and Jo Yes, 317 00:20:12,759 --> 00:20:14,640 she just came out with this book Dark Tide, and 318 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:18,599 we had her on the show recently, and never having 319 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,839 written that's double check with Christian. But I've never written 320 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,559 to a person in prison before, certainly not on death Row. 321 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:31,000 The logistics of the letters back and forth. Were your 322 00:20:31,079 --> 00:20:35,079 letters handwritten and his letters handwritten? You mentioned a pencil 323 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,720 in his example. 324 00:20:37,759 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 5: In both cases mostly yes. I remember my first letter 325 00:20:43,519 --> 00:20:47,519 to him, I typed on my little Selectric typewriter, but 326 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,599 most of my letters I think were handwritten. His were 327 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,119 always handwritten. And I'm thinking of John Wayne Gacy whose 328 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:01,039 letters were almost always typed, but Manson's were almost always handwritten. 329 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,720 The letters I get from Squeaky fromy and Sandy Good, 330 00:21:04,759 --> 00:21:08,319 her roommate, in the months prior to the assassination attempt, 331 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,680 were all handwritten. Of course, they weren't in prison, which 332 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:12,720 is another. 333 00:21:12,799 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 2: That's a whole different story. So how cognizant were either 334 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,319 of you of the fact that, as we understand it, 335 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,519 letters in and out of prison are read by prison authorities. 336 00:21:25,599 --> 00:21:29,119 Our understanding is that, for instance, someone like Manson in 337 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:35,359 sending Jeff Smaalden in Valparaiso, Indiana, a letter, he would 338 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,559 be showing it to someone who would review it before 339 00:21:39,599 --> 00:21:42,599 it went out. Were you at all aware of any 340 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:43,839 of those things happening? 341 00:21:44,839 --> 00:21:48,799 Speaker 5: It's an interesting question. I was so young and naive 342 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,559 and ignorant. I don't think I was even thinking of 343 00:21:51,599 --> 00:21:56,440 those things. Manson, who'd spent most of his life in prison, 344 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:01,880 presumably was. However, and I'm sure you've had this sense 345 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:06,599 from the work that you guys do. It's amazing how 346 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:12,160 many criminals, people in jails and prisons, they know that 347 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:16,079 their phone calls are being monitored, but they say incredibly 348 00:22:16,519 --> 00:22:20,160 incriminating things, And I always think, what are they doing? 349 00:22:21,079 --> 00:22:24,680 Are they not thinking at all about the authorities listening 350 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,640 in on these calls. But as for Manson, he never 351 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,799 said anything incriminating. Quite the opposite. He said I never 352 00:22:31,839 --> 00:22:35,359 did anything wrong. But whether he was thinking in terms 353 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,880 of the authorities screening his letters, I don't know. 354 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,079 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 355 00:22:42,319 --> 00:22:51,440 after this word from our sponsors, We're back here at 356 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:52,400 mindover Murder. 357 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:58,079 Speaker 3: In talking to Manson and then later to John Wayne 358 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:02,920 Caasey notably, and many other people who were on Death 359 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,000 row or just in prison. What facets of human behavior, 360 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,079 or human nature or human motivation were you attempting to 361 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,759 understand by interviewing? And I guess maybe befriending isn't the 362 00:23:14,799 --> 00:23:19,920 word that I want. You're not befriending these killers, But 363 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,799 I'm also not sure what VERBT use there, So I 364 00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:25,839 would love to know what verb you would use in 365 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:27,559 its place. I don't feel like I should say you 366 00:23:27,559 --> 00:23:31,119 were befriending Manson, But tell me what verb you would choose? 367 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,279 And then what were you trying to get out of 368 00:23:33,319 --> 00:23:34,839 these conversations with them? 369 00:23:35,559 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 5: I certainly never thought of it in terms of befriending them. 370 00:23:40,039 --> 00:23:44,920 I would say creating a situation that made it possible 371 00:23:45,039 --> 00:23:50,440 for me to engage with them, Okay, at a horizontal level. 372 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:55,680 Something I always tried to bring was a non judgmental attitude, 373 00:23:56,559 --> 00:24:00,440 which didn't mean that I didn't have any feelings toward 374 00:24:00,519 --> 00:24:04,279 what they had done. The opposite is true. But I 375 00:24:04,279 --> 00:24:08,200 always wanted to communicate a willingness to hear their point 376 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,200 of view and interest in their point of view, and 377 00:24:11,279 --> 00:24:16,960 a genuine curiosity about them as human beings. And this 378 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,880 is true both with these the contacts with Manson, Gacy 379 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,720 and others before I became a forensic psychologist. And it's 380 00:24:24,759 --> 00:24:28,359 also true about my way of relating to the many 381 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,880 way beyond a thousand killers that I dealt with during 382 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,839 my career as a forensic psychologist, for example. And I 383 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,680 think some other people in my field would maybe criticize 384 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,200 me for this. I always introduced myself as Jeff. I 385 00:24:44,279 --> 00:24:47,400 never wanted to create a situation that seemed like I 386 00:24:47,559 --> 00:24:51,480 was talking down to them from a position of authority. 387 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,240 I would introduce myself as Jeff, hand them my business 388 00:24:55,279 --> 00:24:58,200 cards so they could figure out quickly enough that I 389 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,440 had my PhD and so on. They didn't need me 390 00:25:02,559 --> 00:25:05,640 to tell them that. But I wanted to create a 391 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,559 situation where we could communicate on a horizontal level, and 392 00:25:09,599 --> 00:25:13,400 I tried to accomplish that when I was corresponding as well. 393 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 2: Would they have access to the Internet or other resources 394 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,359 that would allow them to look into who you were. 395 00:25:21,799 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 5: Not back then? One of the things in my book, 396 00:25:25,279 --> 00:25:29,599 and I tried hard to include regular reminders of this, 397 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,240 because I think it's easy to lose sight of but 398 00:25:32,319 --> 00:25:36,839 I was describing events that occurred fifty years ago, particularly 399 00:25:37,279 --> 00:25:40,920 with respect to the Manson people. These things were happening 400 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,559 in the mid seventies, so the Internet was still long 401 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,799 ways off. Same was true with Gacy in the eighties. No, 402 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,880 that was never an issue. Now it would be more 403 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,480 a question. I would wonder what kinds of access they 404 00:25:55,559 --> 00:25:57,680 had to commute computers and so on. 405 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 2: You tell a fascinating story about visiting with John Wayne 406 00:26:02,279 --> 00:26:06,319 Gacy on death Row. We want people to read the book, obviously, 407 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,440 but it's a fascinating book and an incredible story. Tell 408 00:26:10,519 --> 00:26:13,400 us a little bit about if visiting is the right word. 409 00:26:13,559 --> 00:26:18,160 With Gacy. I was shocked by how little effort there 410 00:26:18,279 --> 00:26:21,240 was made to protect you as an individual. 411 00:26:23,039 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 5: So was I and it's why I include the one 412 00:26:26,759 --> 00:26:30,799 scene with Gacy as the prologue to my book because 413 00:26:30,839 --> 00:26:34,240 it was shocking to me, frankly. But there I was 414 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,079 my second year of graduate school. I had never been 415 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,240 in the same room before with someone who had been 416 00:26:41,559 --> 00:26:45,599 found guilty of one murder, let alone thirty three murders, 417 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,400 so it was still very naive, even though I had 418 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,160 begun graduate work that would eventually lead to my career. 419 00:26:52,519 --> 00:26:55,119 And I just remember I made two different trips to 420 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,759 see Gacy on death Row in Illinois, and I recount 421 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,160 one thing that had happened during the first one. As 422 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,720 I say in my book, when we got to what 423 00:27:05,799 --> 00:27:08,839 the people at the prison referred to as the condemned unit, 424 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,759 that was the phrase they used for death row. I 425 00:27:11,839 --> 00:27:15,480 was about to go into the death row visiting area. 426 00:27:15,559 --> 00:27:19,599 There was a big iron, big steel whatever gait that 427 00:27:19,799 --> 00:27:22,640 I had to go through my last portal to pass 428 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,200 through before I'd reached the room where I was going 429 00:27:25,279 --> 00:27:28,359 to meet with Gacy for the first time. And just 430 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,160 as I was about to walk through the door, the 431 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,640 guard who had accompanied me there said something to the 432 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:39,079 effect of, I know you understand why mister Gacy is 433 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,119 on our condemned unit, and I know you've come a 434 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,960 long way to visit him. I just want you to 435 00:27:46,079 --> 00:27:50,039 know that should anything go awry while you're with him, 436 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,920 or god forbid, should a hostage situation develop, you'll be 437 00:27:55,039 --> 00:27:58,240 on your own, because prison policy is that we don't 438 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:03,880 negotiate within me. You understand, Oh my god. And I 439 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,240 remember saying, yeah, well, what else was I going to say? 440 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,720 I wasn't going to bail out At that point, I'd 441 00:28:09,759 --> 00:28:13,680 driven four hundred and fifty miles for this visit, and 442 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,759 so I said yeah, But as I described in more 443 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:21,440 colorful detail in my book, I lost my concentration for 444 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,440 a minute and forgot to ask if there was a 445 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,960 restroom back there, and ended up having to request mister 446 00:28:28,079 --> 00:28:31,880 Gacy's help to find a restroom, which is something that 447 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,720 no normal person would ever want I have to do. 448 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 2: Yeesh, there's something so unbelievably creepy about it. 449 00:28:41,039 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 5: I was just going to say there were no guards 450 00:28:43,279 --> 00:28:46,400 back in that area at all. I ended up having 451 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,440 to scream to get a guard's attention to take me 452 00:28:50,519 --> 00:28:53,920 to a restroom. And it was a situation that Gacy 453 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:59,720 loved because it converged exactly with his fantasy of a 454 00:28:59,799 --> 00:29:05,160 yeng young man unable to get help and totally under 455 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,799 Gasey's control. And he loved it. He thought it was 456 00:29:09,039 --> 00:29:12,160 fantastic that I was unable to get anybody to assist 457 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:13,839 me in finding a restroom. 458 00:29:14,279 --> 00:29:15,799 Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm looking at the picture in the back 459 00:29:15,799 --> 00:29:18,079 of the book of the two of you together. How 460 00:29:18,119 --> 00:29:21,480 could you stand being that close to him? Well, how 461 00:29:21,519 --> 00:29:22,480 could you stand it? 462 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 5: There's a little story there. The reason I'm smiling and 463 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:30,079 Gasey's looking mildly perturbed is that right before that picture 464 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,640 was taken by a guard who I think I had 465 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,920 paid five dollars to have two pictures taken. And the 466 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,000 guard appeared with the camera, and so Gasey and I 467 00:29:39,119 --> 00:29:41,319 get up from the table and stood next to one another, 468 00:29:41,519 --> 00:29:44,279 and as the guard was looking through his camera, he said, 469 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,119 j W, why are you taking up so much of 470 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:53,240 the frame. Gasey was sensitive about his weight at that point, 471 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,160 so he wasn't happy. I thought it was funny. I 472 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,200 don't know, Christen. You asked, like, how did I get 473 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,920 that close to him? I did a number of times. 474 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,079 He asked me to come over to his side of 475 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,200 the table multiple times during my visits with him, so 476 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,880 that we could look over his photo album and so on. 477 00:30:13,119 --> 00:30:16,200 He wanted to show me things, and I remember at 478 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,279 the time thinking I don't really want to do that, 479 00:30:20,359 --> 00:30:24,359 but I also didn't want to communicate to him that 480 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,400 I felt afraid of him. So I did do it 481 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,960 and position myself so in a way so that I 482 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,200 thought I could move quickly if I had to, But 483 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,920 he could very easily. Even though he had handcuffs on 484 00:30:39,039 --> 00:30:42,000 and leg manacles. It would not have been difficult for 485 00:30:42,119 --> 00:30:46,319 him to put those handcuffs over my head and squeeze 486 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,640 my neck with his fore arms had he been so inclined. 487 00:30:51,119 --> 00:30:53,599 And I was frankly too naive at the time to 488 00:30:54,039 --> 00:30:58,799 fully understand the jeopardy I was in. At that point, 489 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,920 Caasey still was holding out in the fantasy that his 490 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:06,039 appeals might result in some relief for him, at least 491 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,480 where the death penalty was concerned. The reason I included 492 00:31:10,519 --> 00:31:15,880 the detail I did from Jason Moss's book Moss's contacts 493 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:20,440 with Gasey occurred. This is a young man who wrote 494 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:25,279 an honors paper based on his attempts to open up 495 00:31:25,359 --> 00:31:29,799 lines of communication with serial killers by posturing as their 496 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:34,359 quote unquote ideal victim. And he did this with Gasey, 497 00:31:34,759 --> 00:31:37,839 and he ended up visiting Gasey and then writing about 498 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,640 it in a book that was published after Gaysey's execution. 499 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,400 But it was obvious to me in reading Moss's book 500 00:31:45,559 --> 00:31:48,759 that he had met Gasey in exactly the same place 501 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,599 where I did. So put it mildly, he had a 502 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:57,680 different and very harrowing experience with Gacy, and it freaked 503 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,359 me out, frankly when that book came out. I thought, 504 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,599 at the point when he saw Gasey Gasey knew the 505 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,079 gig was up, that his appeals were not going to 506 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,559 result in any relief, and he was going to be 507 00:32:08,599 --> 00:32:11,759 executed in a few months, so he basically had nothing 508 00:32:11,799 --> 00:32:14,480 to lose, whereas he would have had a lot to 509 00:32:14,559 --> 00:32:18,119 lose from attacking me back in eighty six or eighty seven. 510 00:32:18,559 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 2: And in the photograph, it's pretty evident that Gasey is 511 00:32:22,359 --> 00:32:26,400 substantially larger than you are, and that I actually think 512 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,079 he might have been able to overpower you. And here's 513 00:32:29,119 --> 00:32:33,599 a guy who has killed at least thirty, mostly young men. 514 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,480 He has a significant amount of physical strength. That vision 515 00:32:38,519 --> 00:32:42,319 you described, a moment ago of him slipping his handcuffs 516 00:32:42,359 --> 00:32:48,160 those manacles around your neck from behind, that's not much 517 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,160 of a stretch to think that he might have had 518 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:51,039 that capability. 519 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,599 Speaker 5: He absolutely would have had that capability, and he could 520 00:32:55,799 --> 00:32:59,240 I think he could have easily overcome me had he 521 00:32:59,319 --> 00:33:02,359 decided to do that. And I should have been thinking 522 00:33:02,559 --> 00:33:06,119 more about it than I was. Frankly, I was wary, 523 00:33:06,519 --> 00:33:10,599 but not I had that thought of what he could do, 524 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,119 but I put it to the back of my mind. 525 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,119 I just tried hard to compartmentalize it because I thought 526 00:33:16,759 --> 00:33:19,559 if you're thinking all the time where you're sitting next 527 00:33:19,599 --> 00:33:21,920 to him that he could be on the verge of 528 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,720 strangling you. It's going to be very difficult to interact 529 00:33:26,799 --> 00:33:30,680 with him in the kind of familiar, relaxed way you 530 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,160 want to. But yeah, scary situation for sure. 531 00:33:34,599 --> 00:33:38,359 Speaker 3: And I like that you bookended that story with the 532 00:33:38,519 --> 00:33:40,960 very last one that you tell in the book about 533 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,279 meeting with Alva Campbell and how the guard called you 534 00:33:44,359 --> 00:33:47,559 over and said he could strangle you with your necktie. 535 00:33:48,039 --> 00:33:50,960 So maybe you want to take that necktie off. And 536 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,599 you walk yourself through the process and taking off the tie, 537 00:33:55,079 --> 00:33:57,880 and this guy is watching you and he clearly knows 538 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,279 it's exactly what the guard has said to you. And 539 00:34:00,319 --> 00:34:02,279 you pull the tie off and he says, you feel 540 00:34:02,279 --> 00:34:05,640 better now, Doc. It was like, oh my god, with the. 541 00:34:06,319 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 5: Whole mile on his face, Yeah, have you made yourself 542 00:34:10,039 --> 00:34:13,960 feel safe now? Doc? He understood what the guard had 543 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:18,039 told me. Yeah. That's another one of one thing I 544 00:34:18,119 --> 00:34:22,480 hoped in this book that I was a relatable narrator. 545 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:23,559 Speaker 3: Oh totally. 546 00:34:24,039 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 5: I didn't try to gloss over the times where I 547 00:34:28,519 --> 00:34:31,000 wasn't thinking about things I should have been thinking of, 548 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,360 or I made mistakes. I should have known by the 549 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,480 time I had my interactions with Alvit Campbell in the 550 00:34:37,519 --> 00:34:40,440 mid nineteen nineties that it wasn't a good idea to 551 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,480 have a tie on when you met someone like him. 552 00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:45,920 But I had just been in court all afternoon on 553 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,840 a domestic case, had gone directly to the jail, and 554 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,760 just wasn't really thinking about it, And I should have been, 555 00:34:53,079 --> 00:34:56,000 but I wasn't until the guard called my attention to 556 00:34:56,079 --> 00:34:58,079 it and said, if he thought he could get out 557 00:34:58,079 --> 00:35:01,400 of here by strangling you with your he would do 558 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,280 that in a hot second, and not think about it 559 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:04,800 at all. 560 00:35:05,639 --> 00:35:07,760 Speaker 3: That has to make your blood run cold to hear that. 561 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,119 Speaker 5: It was just a reminder. And Alva Campbell was a 562 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,000 very violent man who had engaged in all kinds of 563 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,199 violent acts before. He was very capable of being violent, 564 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:24,599 and he was very manipulative, So yeah, he could have 565 00:35:24,639 --> 00:35:27,360 decided it made sense to take that risk. 566 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 2: My thought was, there's probably no dress code in jail either, 567 00:35:31,599 --> 00:35:34,320 so you didn't really need quite so dressed up like 568 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,559 you would have been for court earlier that day. 569 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:39,639 Speaker 5: No, typically when I would go to the jail, i'd 570 00:35:39,639 --> 00:35:42,840 have jeans on, not a T shirt, button down shirt 571 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:47,360 or some sneakers, very casual. But I had come directly 572 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,320 from court that day. It made it an anomalous day 573 00:35:50,519 --> 00:35:53,159 for me because I was already dressed up in my 574 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:54,119 court uniform. 575 00:35:54,639 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 3: Jeff, did you ever reach a point in all of 576 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,400 this correspondence and research where you felt like, Okay, I've 577 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,719 bit off more than I can chew here, Like I'm 578 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,280 emotionally not capable of compartmentalizing and handling all of this. 579 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,480 This is dark and intense subject matter. I guess, for 580 00:36:10,559 --> 00:36:12,480 lack of a better term, how do you keep yourself 581 00:36:12,519 --> 00:36:15,199 healthy when this is the headspace that you were in 582 00:36:15,559 --> 00:36:16,400 all the time. 583 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know that I always succeeded in keeping 584 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:27,599 myself healthy. I eventually bailed out of the correspondence with Manson, 585 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,440 eventually bailed out of the one with Gacy years later, 586 00:36:31,519 --> 00:36:35,559 after three years, because I became just exhausted by the 587 00:36:35,679 --> 00:36:38,239 demands of trying to engage them, and it was a 588 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:44,519 very kind of psychologically and emotionally taxing project to maintain 589 00:36:44,639 --> 00:36:50,800 an ongoing epistolary relationship with these people. I never want 590 00:36:51,039 --> 00:36:55,119 I didn't want to make them really angry, both because 591 00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:00,079 in Manson's case, I knew that he had sympathizers slash 592 00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:04,360 followers outside prison, and I'll tell a little story in 593 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,639 a second. But I didn't know how far his reach 594 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:12,239 extended and what he might do if I made him 595 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,480 really angry. So that was always part of my thinking. 596 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:21,039 And yeah, there were times where I became very I 597 00:37:21,079 --> 00:37:26,239 don't know what the right word would be beyond wary, frightened, 598 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:32,719 felt very vulnerable. I'll tell what happened with Manson's followers, 599 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,960 and I think it's responsive to your question. This is 600 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,519 in mid nineteen seventy five, so this is a long 601 00:37:40,599 --> 00:37:45,599 time ago, almost fifty years. I began corresponding with Squeaky 602 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:50,280 Fromy and a roommate, Sandy Good, who, as it turned out, 603 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,679 lived in an attic apartment in Sacramento. They weren't in prison, 604 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:59,440 but they were in regular contact with manson fervent devotees, 605 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:05,400 and in the months during the spring of nineteen seventy five, 606 00:38:06,159 --> 00:38:11,400 there was an interesting and alarming progression in the rhetoric 607 00:38:11,519 --> 00:38:15,199 contained in their letters. In the very first letter that 608 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,920 I got from SQUEAKYPHROMI and I include a picture of 609 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,400 that envelope in my book. It wasn't what I expected 610 00:38:22,599 --> 00:38:26,920 She was, by most accounts Manson's second in command, his 611 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,159 most favored girl, so to speak. And I had this 612 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,079 idea in my mind, what would the first in command 613 00:38:34,119 --> 00:38:37,599 of somebody like Charles Manson sound like in a letter? 614 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,360 What would it be like to hear her voice in 615 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,480 a letter? And so when I got her first letter 616 00:38:42,599 --> 00:38:47,679 was in this envelope with floral accents, and a stationary 617 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:52,159 had flowers on them. She drew little flowers and smiley 618 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:56,159 faces and hearts, and all the talk was of peace 619 00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:01,119 and love and the companionship at spawn ran. At one 620 00:39:01,159 --> 00:39:04,880 point she paused to say, Charlie didn't do it, Jeff, 621 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,079 he is it, And she talked of him as the 622 00:39:08,079 --> 00:39:11,519 only person who knew how to bring about world peace 623 00:39:11,599 --> 00:39:15,039 and so on, and I remember thinking, what, what are 624 00:39:15,079 --> 00:39:19,800 you even talking about? They just sounded like so bizarre 625 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,440 coming from Charles Manson's first in command. But then after 626 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,000 that letter, her roommate Sandy Good took over the correspondence, 627 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,880 and initially her letter sounded the same way, and they 628 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:36,360 both sounded very intelligent, articulate, And then suddenly things took 629 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:40,800 a dark turn with Sandy Good. She had been dropping 630 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,679 hints about things they wanted me to do. They were 631 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,320 very upset with people they believe were polluting the environment 632 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,840 and so on, and she kept saying things like, there 633 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:56,079 are people you can contact to help us, let us 634 00:39:56,159 --> 00:39:58,760 know when you're ready to do that. And I would 635 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,960 just ignore those things and hope that they would go away. 636 00:40:02,559 --> 00:40:05,639 And then one time, this I believe was in May, 637 00:40:06,079 --> 00:40:09,599 I got a letter from Sandy that began with words 638 00:40:09,639 --> 00:40:13,000 that you never want a letter from a member of 639 00:40:13,039 --> 00:40:18,480 the Manson family to say, Jeff, we're moving out of 640 00:40:18,519 --> 00:40:21,599 the realm of words. And I remember thinking, I don't 641 00:40:21,599 --> 00:40:23,800 want to move out of the realm of words. That's 642 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:25,559 the only realm I want. 643 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:29,840 Speaker 2: To be right, you're fine with words. 644 00:40:30,039 --> 00:40:32,679 Speaker 5: I'm fine with the realm of words. That's where I 645 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,280 want to stay. But then she went on in that 646 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,920 letter to say to give me specific instructions about calling people. 647 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,400 And up until that point, all the references to any 648 00:40:43,519 --> 00:40:46,559 crimes committed by members of the Manson family had been 649 00:40:47,559 --> 00:40:51,400 oblique and vague. But now she said, I want you 650 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:56,039 to call these people and tell them Charles Manson demands 651 00:40:56,599 --> 00:40:59,880 that they stop polluting the environment. And if they ask, 652 00:41:00,119 --> 00:41:03,800 who say Charles Manson, Remember Sharon Tate. 653 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 3: Oh my god. 654 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, no one's reviewing these letters speaking of. 655 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,400 Speaker 5: I became really alarmed at that point. And then she 656 00:41:16,559 --> 00:41:21,239 followed that up with a sixteen page handwritten letter where 657 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,960 she said, I want you to tell these people that 658 00:41:24,159 --> 00:41:28,400 soon a wave of assassins will sweep through their homes 659 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,440 and splash blood from room to room. 660 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:32,400 Speaker 2: Wow. 661 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:36,519 Speaker 5: I started talking about people getting their arms chopped off, 662 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,639 and invited me to arrange a group of my friends 663 00:41:40,679 --> 00:41:42,840 who would be willing to go out in the woods 664 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,320 and kill a hunter and then leave a sign on 665 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:50,400 the trees saying there are hunters hunting hunters. So she 666 00:41:50,559 --> 00:41:55,719 was basically trying to recruit me to actively become involved 667 00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:59,599 in this campaign of eco terrorism. And at that point 668 00:41:59,639 --> 00:42:02,599 I thought, Okay, I'm in way over my head. I 669 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,840 need an exit strategy, and I wasn't sure how to 670 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:08,679 execute one that would work. And what I did was 671 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,760 I wrote Squeaky and Sandy a letter. This was in 672 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,079 June of nineteen seventy five, and I told them that 673 00:42:15,159 --> 00:42:17,639 I had left the address where I'd been living in 674 00:42:17,679 --> 00:42:20,320 Western New York. It was actually my parents' address, but 675 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,920 they didn't know that my dad, by the way, was 676 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,880 an FBI agent in these letters from Charles Manson and 677 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:30,039 Squeaky fromy were coming to my father's address. But that's 678 00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:33,440 another whole element of the story. But I wrote this 679 00:42:33,519 --> 00:42:35,760 letter and then I sent it to a good friend 680 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:39,320 of mine who lived in Wisconsin, and I asked her 681 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:42,800 to mail my letter from Wisconsin to get a Wisconsin 682 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,039 postmark on it. In my letter, I'd said I'd left 683 00:42:46,079 --> 00:42:50,199 New York, I was hitchhiking around, didn't have a settled address. 684 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, very vague about where I am exactly. 685 00:42:53,519 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 5: And the next thing I heard was Squeaky had attempted 686 00:42:55,760 --> 00:43:00,599 to assassinate President Ford. But getting back to your original question, 687 00:43:00,679 --> 00:43:03,280 Bill about whether I ever fell or maybe Kristin you 688 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:07,599 asked it whether I felt like the emotional demands of 689 00:43:07,679 --> 00:43:12,280 continuing with this were too much. That was one such point. 690 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 2: Join us again next time on Mind Over Murder as 691 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:20,039 we continue our conversation with doctor Jeffrey Smalden discussing his 692 00:43:20,199 --> 00:43:25,719 book that Beast was not Me one forensic psychologist, five 693 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,280 decades of conversation with killers. 694 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 3: That is going to do it for this episode of 695 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:35,039 Mind Ever Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll 696 00:43:35,079 --> 00:43:35,920 see you next time. 697 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,360 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 698 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:50,880 Another Dog Productions. 699 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,760 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 700 00:43:55,119 --> 00:43:57,519 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 701 00:43:58,199 --> 00:43:59,960 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin mclach. 702 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:04,679 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 703 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,760 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 704 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,400 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 705 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:13,280 Murders on Facebook. 706 00:44:13,079 --> 00:44:16,119 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 707 00:44:16,119 --> 00:44:17,760 Bill Thomas. Five six. 708 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:21,320 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.