WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.160 --> 00:00:05.400 Meaning a live man like this, Man, you letting butterfly 2 00:00:05.480 --> 00:00:05.960 flapin and. 3 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:08.199 Wing dig down in a forest. Man, it gonna cause 4 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:10.880 a tree fall, letting five thousand miles away. 5 00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:19.079 Man, nobody seen nobody else. You don't mean no Man. 6 00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:22.399 I'd luck you call the little story and you got 7 00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:23.679 directed like that. 8 00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:27.519 Win Man over like a dang on the panel, man 9 00:00:26.559 --> 00:00:29.039 matter Man? 10 00:00:36.119 --> 00:00:38.359 All right, Arch, welcome to the Jay Burden Show. 11 00:00:38.359 --> 00:00:42.159 How you doing Man, I'm doing fun. Thank you, Thank 12 00:00:42.159 --> 00:00:42.799 you for having me. 13 00:00:44.200 --> 00:00:45.920 Yeah, I'm excited to have you on. 14 00:00:46.600 --> 00:00:46.719 Uh. 15 00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:48.679 As I was telling you before we went live, I 16 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:52.159 had an episode on forty k more generally that just 17 00:00:52.240 --> 00:00:56.719 last week did quite well, and literally probably three days 18 00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:00.399 after Kevin and I had that discussion, uh, there was 19 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:04.840 a major update to the sort of infiltration of you know, 20 00:01:04.920 --> 00:01:08.480 left wing politics into that hobby. So if you could, Arch, 21 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:10.840 I guess I should be a good podcaster and ask 22 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:13.359 you to describe what you do first. But then after that, 23 00:01:13.480 --> 00:01:16.159 if you want what happened, right, what's the big deal? 24 00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:17.200 What's everyone talking about? 25 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:19.519 Well? 26 00:01:20.840 --> 00:01:24.439 I started doing YouTube content to solid ten years ago 27 00:01:24.680 --> 00:01:28.799 plus now because of the announcement of Total War Warhammer. 28 00:01:28.959 --> 00:01:31.680 It's always been a huge fan of Warhammer and Total War. 29 00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:34.840 Does that seem like the perfect opportunity to start talking 30 00:01:34.840 --> 00:01:39.560 about this stuff. But I very soon became aware of 31 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:42.159 the political side of things, because this was, you know, 32 00:01:42.239 --> 00:01:46.480 the twenty fourteen fifteens, et cetera, when most of us 33 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:50.599 began to become aware of the political shift that was 34 00:01:50.680 --> 00:01:55.200 starting with in entertainment at large. And I decided quite 35 00:01:55.239 --> 00:01:58.599 soon that this was something that wasn't going to stop. 36 00:01:58.799 --> 00:02:01.799 It wasn't going to limit its to one thing. It 37 00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:05.319 was going to try and infiltrate entertainment in general. So 38 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:09.080 I started talking about that as well, at significant personal 39 00:02:09.159 --> 00:02:12.080 cost over the years. But well we're sitting here in 40 00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:17.120 twenty twenty six with female custodies and I feel pretty justified, 41 00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:19.759 honestly validated, even. 42 00:02:21.560 --> 00:02:26.280 Yeah, I think. I mean, I I was a teenager 43 00:02:26.639 --> 00:02:30.199 right during the whole gamer Gate thing, and so I 44 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:33.159 have a very distinct memory of the sort of before 45 00:02:33.280 --> 00:02:36.039 and after. I've told this story before, Arch, but I 46 00:02:36.039 --> 00:02:38.240 figured you'd get a kick out of it. I went 47 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:42.960 to university in seventeen and so, you know, right into 48 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:47.479 you know, the Burning culture War, and you know, I 49 00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:51.240 was studying economics. I decided to take game theory, naively, 50 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:54.919 assuming that would be game theory, right, And what I'd 51 00:02:54.919 --> 00:02:57.560 actually done is signed up for a course on the 52 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:00.960 critical theory of video games. So I was hot gamer 53 00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:04.360 Gate at a collegiate level. A funny story, that's a 54 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:06.080 large part of the reason I ended up here. You 55 00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:09.479 go through a course with an obese, actually purple haired 56 00:03:09.479 --> 00:03:12.400 woman yelling at you about gamer Gate, and you're like, okay, well, 57 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:16.520 whoever you hate, I think those are my friends. And obviously, 58 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:17.840 you know, that was sort of the canary in the 59 00:03:17.879 --> 00:03:20.639 coal mine. Many of these trends have been observed in 60 00:03:20.680 --> 00:03:23.319 other hobbies, you know, similar thing has happened obviously to 61 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:26.919 anything that Wizards of the Coast owns. But forty k, 62 00:03:27.080 --> 00:03:31.599 as we discussed in a previous episode, is structurally resistant, 63 00:03:31.719 --> 00:03:34.439 you know, within the universe. It is illiberal, right, it 64 00:03:34.439 --> 00:03:39.120 doesn't conform to certain of our our modern sensibilities. And 65 00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:46.520 the specific issue is seemingly minor. Right, it's this desire 66 00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:52.520 to turn factions that are male, right, entirely male, desire 67 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:57.199 to diversify them, right, desire to bring women into these 68 00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:02.199 male spaces, as they would say. And the battles lost 69 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:05.080 a while ago, right, there was a. I can't remember 70 00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:07.439 which one of the horace heresy books I tapped out 71 00:04:07.479 --> 00:04:12.680 a long time ago, which featured one of these female custodies. 72 00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:19.319 For those who aren't aware, Giant Royal Protectors, right, Giant Armor, 73 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:23.879 the best of the best, right, always been exclusively male, 74 00:04:24.439 --> 00:04:26.319 and they wrote in to one of these books a 75 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:29.759 female character. Funny enough, arch As, I'm sure you're aware, 76 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:32.240 she is featured in the book and does bawling her 77 00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:36.360 eyes out completely ineffectual, which is kind of funny. But 78 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:41.279 the big update is now they have little plastic guys. Right, 79 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:43.519 they have taken it down to that level, the thing 80 00:04:43.560 --> 00:04:48.319 that matters, so to speak. So Arch if you could, 81 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:53.439 could you describe one why that matters? Right, Why this 82 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:57.000 is a significant change for the franchise, And two what's 83 00:04:57.040 --> 00:05:00.000 the reaction been? Right? Who is celebrating? Who is upset? 84 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:04.000 Well, there's quite a few layers to this. 85 00:05:04.279 --> 00:05:09.360 So this is very obviously so a political move into 86 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:12.920 games Workshop because the company that owns Warm of forty thousand, 87 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:16.839 that is Games Workshop, they have wanted to become a 88 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:20.920 woke company for quite some time now, and they have 89 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:23.720 met a great deal of resistance both from their fandom 90 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:27.759 and the franchise itself, as you mentioned, one forty thousand 91 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:31.120 is just not a very liberal friendly franchise. It is 92 00:05:31.319 --> 00:05:36.360 explicitly inherently left wing. It begins by simply stating that 93 00:05:36.439 --> 00:05:41.959 progress is dead. There is no progressivism in it, but 94 00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:44.439 Games Workshop wants it to be, and they've been waging 95 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:46.639 an active war against their fans for quite a few 96 00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:51.000 years now. One of the central parts of that conflict 97 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:54.560 was a man named Tom Mendelssohn, who was their community manager. 98 00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:58.120 He was revealed a few months ago to have celebrated 99 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:02.480 the assassination of Charlie Kirk. I broke that story and 100 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:05.079 nobody else talked about it in the Warhammer community. Of 101 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:09.759 the commentators. Gainst Workshops suspended him and have still not 102 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:13.360 elected to fire him because well, they sympathize with his 103 00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:16.959 point of view. And I stress that to make you 104 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:23.120 understand just how progressive the company actually is. They put 105 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:26.000 out a whole plan for female custodes, which, as you say, 106 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:29.680 is an all female faction, which began with a small 107 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:33.839 line in their codex, their rule book, which mentions a 108 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:38.319 female custodes, and it's very vague. It's just the pronouns 109 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:40.439 that give it away. This meant that a lot of 110 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:43.519 people back then were basically coping like, oh, this probably 111 00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:47.240 isn't official rogue in turn, stuff like that. But this 112 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:50.439 was a part of Against Workshop's long term campaign to 113 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:54.120 introduce them boiling the frog on it. They later introduced 114 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:57.360 the female custodies in an animated short, and now like 115 00:06:57.519 --> 00:07:02.279 a year or so later used models, which is essentially 116 00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:06.560 the standard of canonization. When something has a model, it 117 00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:10.920 is properly officially a part of the Warhammer forty K universe. 118 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:14.079 So that's why that was a big deal, because now 119 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:17.480 there's no more excuses nobody can trick themselves into thinking 120 00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:22.480 that this isn't happening anymore. It is the most blatant 121 00:07:22.920 --> 00:07:24.920 declaration of war in essence. 122 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:31.279 Yeah, and I think that it's really what we're seeing 123 00:07:32.120 --> 00:07:37.040 is a small product for a very specific type of person, 124 00:07:38.279 --> 00:07:42.519 the kind of person who is both interested in painting 125 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:49.319 up in large armies of fictional soldiers and also in 126 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:54.079 a dark, illiberal future, right because there are you know, 127 00:07:54.120 --> 00:07:56.639 a great number of war games, forty K being the biggest, 128 00:07:56.680 --> 00:07:59.759 of course, But that was a product for a specific 129 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:03.560 type of person, produced by a specific type of person. 130 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:07.079 It came out of a very unique culture, right, the 131 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:11.000 English culture of the seventies and eighties, and that unique 132 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:15.639 flavor is what made it popular. But it's the exact 133 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:18.920 same mechanism you see in anything else, which is on 134 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:23.160 one hand, the tactical invocation of the wider audience. It's 135 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:25.199 sort of up for debate if they actually believe this 136 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:27.680 or not, because it has yet to materialize. But it's 137 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:31.759 idea that if we know jam in representation, we will 138 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:39.399 unlock this kind of secret, untapped audience for XYZ product. 139 00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:44.679 It will become this kind of global brand. And look, 140 00:08:44.799 --> 00:08:47.879 some of this is entirely that it's business sensibility. This 141 00:08:47.960 --> 00:08:52.799 has gone from being a small to a very large company. Understandable. 142 00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:56.879 But also you see these people who are sort of 143 00:08:56.919 --> 00:09:00.000 derisively referred to as tourists, right, those who are simply 144 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:03.399 there because it is current thing, and when it is 145 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:08.519 popular but not in accordance with current values, they want 146 00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:12.120 to pull it into line with everything else. And the 147 00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:17.759 combination of these two yields a gray, neutral product, a 148 00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:22.320 product of nowhere for everybody. And you can see this 149 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:26.000 in any number of things. Right. I'm not a big 150 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:29.320 like warhammer fantasy guy. It was never my bag for 151 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:32.679 a number of reasons. But the way that that world, 152 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:35.000 that sort of franchise, I guess you could say, was 153 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:40.960 very casually disintegrated and replaced with Ages of Sigmar, which 154 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:46.039 is vaguely the same thing, right, It's a medieval fantasy ish, 155 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:51.159 but it's completely stripped of any cultural really weight to 156 00:09:51.240 --> 00:09:53.879 it at all. It again becomes another one of these 157 00:09:54.440 --> 00:09:59.399 mass market products, and I think that that is additionally, 158 00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:01.960 even a side from the politics, a big reason people 159 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:05.440 are unhappy about this because something that was unique, that 160 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:12.240 touched a very you know, specific subset, is being massified. 161 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:14.759 It turned into kind of gray cultural good. 162 00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:22.120 Yes, it's also the fact that when Warhammer, both Fantasy 163 00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:25.279 and forty K were first introduced, this was, you know, 164 00:10:25.559 --> 00:10:28.240 thirty eight years ago for forty K and even more 165 00:10:28.279 --> 00:10:34.519 so for Warhammer Fantasy. Fantasy back then was actually quite formulaic. 166 00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:37.039 You had the Lord of the Rings in essence, it 167 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:40.720 was hopeful fantasy. You had tales like Narnia and so on. 168 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:45.519 So Warhammer being sent in a very grim universe was 169 00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:49.879 quite fresh. It's quite the deviation from things now. Most 170 00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:53.200 of those, all traditional universes have either fallen out of 171 00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:58.559 popularity or been broken into the attempt to, you know, 172 00:10:59.039 --> 00:11:02.399 bring in the wider audience. This meant that forty K 173 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:07.240 and Warhammer had a great window there, particularly during the 174 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:10.440 COVID season, where a lot of people discovered it, and 175 00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:12.919 a lot of people were kind of like, oh my god, 176 00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:18.120 it's a war game, grim dark, brutal, something for boys 177 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:23.639 and men in an age where that was becoming vanishingly rare, 178 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:26.360 like even Star Wars was entering the full swing of 179 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:29.799 the Disney era back then, and so it appealed to 180 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:32.440 a lot of people, and it grew very, very rapidly, 181 00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:35.639 to the point where it is now pushing on the 182 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:39.799 gates of mainstreameddness and it's about to break through. Like 183 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:43.240 I firmly believe that forty K will probably become the 184 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:48.080 next Star Wars, the next cultural phenomenon in entertainment. But 185 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:51.080 that has also drawn in the vultures. In this case, 186 00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:54.159 Amazon and also games workshops desire to appeal to the 187 00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:58.879 wider audience, partially for economic reasons. As you mentioned, though, 188 00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:03.840 the problem with it is we've seen this happen. We've 189 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:06.960 seen Star Trek try it, Star Wars try it, countless 190 00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:11.360 other entities. The wider audience doesn't exist, that exists the 191 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:15.639 casual audience. But the casual audience can never be appealed 192 00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:19.039 to for long. They will simply go towards whatever is 193 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:22.360 currently popular, and they will stay with it for however 194 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:25.679 long it is popular. And then once they have managed 195 00:12:25.720 --> 00:12:29.159 to reduce it to the gray, bored, turgid slop that 196 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:33.279 appeals to everyone, they will move on because it appeals 197 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:37.200 to no one. And this is one step in that process, 198 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:40.720 by taking what was an exclusively male faction that was 199 00:12:40.759 --> 00:12:45.879 exclusively designed to appeal exclusively to males, and turning it 200 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:52.240 into a diverse faction, and well, damn the law in 201 00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:52.919 the process. 202 00:12:56.519 --> 00:13:01.440 Well, and I think that the reaction has been very telling. 203 00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:05.840 All of the usual suspects are out, you know, crowing 204 00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:09.840 about the you know, the female custodes models. And what's 205 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:14.000 interesting is that they're they're casting everything as a cultural victory. Right, 206 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:17.799 we beat you, you can leave. Right. The idea is 207 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:20.919 it's effectively an invasion. Right, we found your thing, we 208 00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:23.840 pulled it apart, we ruined it. Now you should leave. 209 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:27.159 And yes, you know, the the idea that this is 210 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:29.679 some sort of tolerant force, right, the idea that this 211 00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:32.519 is some sort of battle for inclusion. I mean, that's 212 00:13:32.519 --> 00:13:36.799 a tactical assumption. Right. They're stepping into that because it 213 00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:39.759 gives them, you know, some sort of advantage. It's not real. 214 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:43.039 They don't actually think that. That's just a cope. 215 00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:46.960 Right, it's us and we've known it for a while. 216 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:50.960 One hundred percent. So arch this is what we call 217 00:13:51.320 --> 00:13:56.360 in the interview industry a softball question. Why can't you 218 00:13:56.559 --> 00:14:01.720 just go somewhere else, to some other grim dark you know? 219 00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:05.240 I guess you could say intellectual property, like I don't know, 220 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:09.279 a Trench Crusade, for example, right, another wargame with grim 221 00:14:09.399 --> 00:14:12.720 dark aesthetics that's set in Oh, I don't know. Maybe 222 00:14:12.759 --> 00:14:16.879 the an alternative history passed right? World War One inspired 223 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:21.360 with strong Christian imagery. Surely that is a bastion of 224 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:24.639 even if not right wing politics, at the very least 225 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:29.320 a political wargaming. So what say you to the to 226 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:30.519 the Trench Crusade question? 227 00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:33.000 I denounced this. 228 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:37.759 Finally, Trench Crusades developers themselves have already come out and 229 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:40.559 stated quite publicly that they do not consider themselves to 230 00:14:40.600 --> 00:14:44.080 be a Christian game. They believe the Christians to be 231 00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:46.200 just as bad as the demons, and that there is 232 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:50.480 no objectively good side in a war between God and Hell, 233 00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:55.159 so I consider them to be legitimately actually insane people. 234 00:14:57.039 --> 00:15:01.200 And for those wondering, right, this is more inside baseball stuff. 235 00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:06.120 There was a brief exodus of people who saw forty 236 00:15:06.200 --> 00:15:07.960 k going in this direction and said, you know what, 237 00:15:08.039 --> 00:15:10.919 this might not be for me anymore. A trench crusade 238 00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:14.480 which was initially just art. I can't remember the guy's name, 239 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:18.559 Mike something like very much talented Mike Francina, who is 240 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:20.440 a very talented artist. I'm not going to take that 241 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:23.320 away from it. And there was a game to go 242 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:25.840 along with it, this sort of you know, if you 243 00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:28.799 can imagine a sort of like Eldritch World War One theme, 244 00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:31.240 that's sort of what it was. And so many people 245 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:35.000 thought that this is my new place, my new replacement 246 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:40.080 for this hobby. And what they found is that the 247 00:15:40.120 --> 00:15:43.080 invasion was done before they ever showed up, right, the 248 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:46.840 same sort of you know, political activists had found their 249 00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:51.480 way there. And again, right, it's another way in which 250 00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:54.720 these kind of traditional nerd hobbies have been completely and 251 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:59.639 totally subverted, right by these these sort of like political actors. 252 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:04.759 So at the same time, obviously there's the direct politics. 253 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:08.120 But there have been other people who aren't necessarily politics 254 00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:12.639 or politically minded per se, who are leaving forty K. 255 00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:17.360 We're no longer interested. How would you describe those people? 256 00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:17.759 Right? 257 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:21.639 What are the other objections that aren't necessarily directly political? 258 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:24.360 People have towards game workshop or this hobby. 259 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:29.440 So this is where the problem of politics and law 260 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:34.360 comes in. So all law must in essence be viewed 261 00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:38.720 as a form of rhetorical argumentation. You are setting up 262 00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:41.039 a universe, and when you're setting up that universe, you 263 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:44.840 can invent anything you want, anything whatsoever. You can have 264 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:48.840 magical space toads, flying starships powered by the tears of 265 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:51.879 children if you so desire. It doesn't have to make sense. 266 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:56.320 But once you have created that universe, you must maintain 267 00:16:56.519 --> 00:17:00.200 internal consistency to the best of your ability. Otherwise is 268 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:04.640 the argument loses its credibility. You're no longer making sense. 269 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:07.039 You're making a shit up. And that's why people are 270 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:10.559 leaving forty K. Even if they don't care about the politics. 271 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:14.240 They now look at a universe that can apparently change overnight. 272 00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:18.279 Never before has there been any mention of female custodies 273 00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:21.279 at any point. There have never been any art of them. 274 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:25.920 In fact, the faction has been specifically and explicitly described 275 00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:30.200 as all male on multiple occasions previously. And when they 276 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:34.480 just change that, well, people now understand that the argument 277 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:38.359 is no longer solid, it is no longer internally coherent, 278 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:43.079 and that turns people off on a basic level. It's 279 00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:46.440 not even about whether or not there should be custodies 280 00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:49.079 from a political point of view. At that point, it 281 00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:52.759 is simply you've changed the thing. I like, why did 282 00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:53.359 you do that? 283 00:17:53.720 --> 00:17:53.920 Oh? 284 00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:57.680 Because politics? Okay, well I don't agree with you doing 285 00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:01.920 that for politics. 286 00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:06.480 Well. And then the other part we need to talk about, 287 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:09.920 because this is relevant as well, is on one hand, 288 00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:13.720 the intellectual property right, the fact that this is a 289 00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:15.920 company which, for at this point, let's be honest, over 290 00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:20.920 two decades, has been extremely jealous of the things. 291 00:18:20.599 --> 00:18:22.119 That they own. 292 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:28.160 In my mind, really, the warning bells were set off 293 00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:32.920 by I don't know what you'd refer this too, but 294 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:37.240 the launch of the Primaries right for those who aren't aware, 295 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:42.160 the poster boys of forty K are the space Breds, right, 296 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:47.799 and basically they launched a refresh. We're getting rid of 297 00:18:47.799 --> 00:18:50.480 all the old stuff, bringing in the new stuff. Models 298 00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:55.599 are bigger, the design is cleaner, more modern, whatever. That's 299 00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:59.119 maybe a separate discussion. But what came along with it 300 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:04.799 was this massive ret con right which featured several things. One, obviously, 301 00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:07.279 you need to buy more stuff. You need to buy 302 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:09.920 it now, you can't use the old stuff anymore, and 303 00:19:09.960 --> 00:19:12.680 the economics of this certainly need to be addressed. But 304 00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:15.759 also of going back to your previous point, was a 305 00:19:15.799 --> 00:19:20.640 massive ret con right to how these super soldiers were made, 306 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:23.599 you know what the plan was all along, But also 307 00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:28.039 there was this great secret plan right all along, right 308 00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:31.680 that these new you know, extra super space marines. Okay, 309 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:35.799 fair enough, the Lord's stupid. But what with it was 310 00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:39.960 this idea that technological progress has resumed, right, we are 311 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:42.680 no longer stuck in this kind of era of decay. 312 00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:45.920 And it's a very core premise to the setting. So 313 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:49.319 you have and even like geez, it's been almost ten years, right, 314 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:52.880 which is kind of crazy to think. There was a 315 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:56.519 very conscious decision to discard the lore, to discard the rules, 316 00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:58.799 to discard the thing that people liked, and drew them 317 00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:03.119 to this setting or eight cash grab. And if you 318 00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:05.119 look at the you know, bringing in the politics as 319 00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:09.039 yet another cash grab. You certainly could. It's the same thing, 320 00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:11.680 the idea that we are sacrificing the product to make 321 00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:17.119 it more economically successful. What do you make of that transition? 322 00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:21.039 Right the launch of primaries, because in my mind as well, 323 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:26.039 it also was a market move towards the kind of 324 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:29.599 you know, chasing after the whales, right as well on 325 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:31.480 the purchasing side. Do you see what I'm getting at 326 00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:31.839 their arch? 327 00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:39.200 Yeah, So the primariest marines, they were probably first and 328 00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:43.960 foremost an economic decision because they wanted to resell the 329 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:47.480 space marine faction, which was by far their best sellers. 330 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:53.400 The design also was an early indication that they didn't 331 00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:58.880 quite understand what their setting was anymore. The old space 332 00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:03.240 Marines could best be this described as crusading nights in space, 333 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:08.559 very bulky, very symbolic looking armor covered in iconography. These 334 00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:13.880 new ones were very rounded, very tactical, very modern esque, 335 00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:17.200 and they lacked a lot of the charm of the 336 00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:21.000 old school of startes. But this was definitely first and 337 00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:24.920 foremost an economic decision to sell people space marines. Again, 338 00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:29.160 as they've continued to sell Space Marines constantly ever since. 339 00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:34.480 They are their best selling faction, so beyond economics an 340 00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:37.960 indication that they were losing contact with their own setting, definitely, 341 00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:41.880 But I think that was the primary motivation for the 342 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:46.079 Space Marines relaunch rather than the political side of it. 343 00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:52.880 Oh yeah, one hundred percent. But point is right again. 344 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:55.079 I think one of the I know, one of the 345 00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:58.119 reasons many people are leaving is that the cost of 346 00:21:58.160 --> 00:22:02.079 engaging in this has gone up dramatic, Right, you can't 347 00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:05.079 keep a model for nearly as long as you used to. 348 00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:11.240 You know, things are being refreshed, maybe a slight diversion there. 349 00:22:12.279 --> 00:22:12.599 Now. 350 00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:17.160 What's been really interesting, arch is the people who effectively 351 00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:21.359 have decided that they are going to build their own. Right, 352 00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:24.799 in the past five or six years, maybe a little longer, 353 00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:30.000 we've seen the explosion of consumer grade resin printers, right, 354 00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:31.680 something that I jumped on and have had a lot 355 00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:35.319 of fun doing, and also a sort of secondary market 356 00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:38.920 of people designing files. Right, some of them, let's be honest, 357 00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:43.319 you are ripping off other properties, right, You've got to 358 00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:46.000 squint your eyes and you know exactly what they're going for. 359 00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:49.400 But also you know, making their own, making their own systems, 360 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:54.200 which are absent of these kind of you know, political overtons. 361 00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:57.240 So I'm curious, Arch, is there anything you see on 362 00:22:57.279 --> 00:22:59.400 that front that you see as sort of a sign 363 00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:01.680 for hope. 364 00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:06.640 Potentially there are many people trying to work on own 365 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:10.079 their own alternatives. I do have a system in the 366 00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:15.519 works myself, as you do eventually have to just try 367 00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:19.319 to make your own if you're not happy with the 368 00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:26.279 current product anymore. I don't know how successful it will be, 369 00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:27.920 because at the end of the day, it's very difficult 370 00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:30.599 to make something like this really start taking off, and 371 00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:33.200 there's only so many people who have the resources to 372 00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:36.240 do so. And there have been many alternatives that have 373 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:38.680 been around for quite some time that have never managed 374 00:23:38.680 --> 00:23:44.440 to really get going either. It's one of those problems 375 00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:46.960 where you don't want to give up on the thing 376 00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:50.240 you like. Anyone has been a fun of a style 377 00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:53.000 of Star Wars has known that feeling for quite some time, 378 00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:58.440 even as you see it on its deathbed, and like 379 00:23:58.519 --> 00:24:00.759 forty K two has the problems you mentioned with the 380 00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:03.880 economy of it that gw has just been increasing their 381 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:09.359 prices add infinitum to the point where their specialty paint 382 00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:12.759 now costs ten times that of their competition and sell 383 00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:18.680 simply because of brand and market recognition. It's I suppose 384 00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:21.920 one of the problems with our current day internet based 385 00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:25.559 system as well, that once you have a thing become big, 386 00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:29.960 it usually becomes the dominant force in its own arena, 387 00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:32.839 rather than back in the day when we had far 388 00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:37.519 more competitors to all of this. Wow, it's difficult to 389 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:40.400 say if we'll see anything rise up to replace it, 390 00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:44.720 but eventually, because we were kind of in the early 391 00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:48.079 stages of a replacement period right now, right where we're 392 00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:52.559 seeing many of the primary entertainment things like Star Wars 393 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:55.599 are beginning to fall off. A lot of The Rings 394 00:24:55.880 --> 00:24:59.960 was lauded for the longest time due to the excellent trilogy, 395 00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:02.359 and then came to The Rings of Power, which is 396 00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:06.640 severely damaged its reputation. Game of throneses was lauded until 397 00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:09.599 his final season, and so on. So we're kind of 398 00:25:09.640 --> 00:25:14.279 seeing the end of many of these cultural giants right now, 399 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:19.759 and we're not yet sure what will emerge now, like 400 00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:22.240 what comes next. 401 00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:26.799