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True Murder with your 52 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:41.360 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 53 00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:56.120 Good Evening. On November twenty eighth, nineteen sixty nine, Betsy Ardsma, 54 00:02:56.360 --> 00:02:59.439 a twenty two year old graduate student English at Penn State, 55 00:03:00.280 --> 00:03:03.240 was stabbed to death in the stacks of Patti Library 56 00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:07.759 at the university's main campus in State Ute College. For 57 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:11.280 more than forty years, their murder went unsolved, Though detectives 58 00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:15.240 with the Pennsylvanian State Police and local citizens worked titlers 59 00:03:15.680 --> 00:03:20.319 tirelessly to find the killer. The mystery was eventually solved 60 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:23.800 after the death of the murderer. This book will reveal 61 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:26.560 the story behind what has been a scary mystery for 62 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:30.639 generations of Penn State students and explained why the Pennsylvania 63 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:35.120 State Police failed to bring her killer to justice. More 64 00:03:35.159 --> 00:03:38.199 than a simple true crime story, the book weaves together 65 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:42.039 the events, culture, and attitudes of the late nineteen sixties, 66 00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:46.960 memorializing Betsy Ardsma and her time and place in history. 67 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:50.120 The book De Riiver featuring this Evening is Murder in 68 00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:54.599 the Stacks, Penn State, Betsy Ardsma and the Killer That 69 00:03:54.759 --> 00:03:58.680 Got Away, with my special guest journalist and author David 70 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:01.400 de Couch. Welcome to the program, and thank you very 71 00:04:01.479 --> 00:04:03.599 much for agreeing to this interview, David D. Kook. 72 00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:09.039 D Cook. Yeah, it's glad. I'm really glad to be here. 73 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:10.400 Thank you for having me on. 74 00:04:10.599 --> 00:04:14.879 Thank you very much. As you write in the book, 75 00:04:15.560 --> 00:04:20.319 you have a special connection to this story and Betsy Ardsma, 76 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:25.120 and you're a former investigative reporter noted for your beverage 77 00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:28.360 of this Petralia mind fires. So just tell us what 78 00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:30.920 your connection is here and how you came to be 79 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:33.680 the author of this book Murder in the Stacks. 80 00:04:34.199 --> 00:04:37.439 Well, Bethy Arsma was from my hometown of Holland, Michigan, 81 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:44.160 and I remember distinctly when the local newspaper, the Holland 82 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:48.399 Evening Sentinel, arrived on November twenty ninth of by nineteen 83 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:51.079 sixty nine, and her picture was on the front page 84 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:53.439 and her the story of her murder was at the 85 00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:56.959 top of the page. And so that's that kind of 86 00:04:56.959 --> 00:05:00.680 got me into this, you know, But really, I mean, 87 00:05:00.680 --> 00:05:02.800 looking at her picture, I mean, she did not look 88 00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:04.920 like a murder victim. She looked like the girl next door, 89 00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:08.560 a very pretty girl next door. And so I never 90 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:11.600 really forgot it, even though the coverage of the story 91 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:15.279 dropped away. It wasn't until I moved out to Pennsylvania 92 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:18.040 and had been working as a reporter for some time 93 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:22.319 that I realized that, at least at Penn State, this 94 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:24.759 was still something that people talked about a lot, and 95 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:26.279 that kind of got me back into this. 96 00:05:29.319 --> 00:05:32.920 Now, tell us a little bit about Holland where you 97 00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:35.839 were born, to kind of describe the city and its 98 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:38.600 population and tell us a little bit about it before 99 00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:41.759 we talk about Penn State at that time in nineteen 100 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:42.360 sixty nine. 101 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:50.000 Sure, Holland, Michigan was settled by Dutch religious dissidents in 102 00:05:50.040 --> 00:05:53.439 eighteen forty seven. They were looking for a place in 103 00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:58.439 the American wilderness where they could live apart from the world. 104 00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:02.240 Didn't really work out well for them in terms of 105 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:06.720 avoiding their neighbors, but they did establish a very ethnically 106 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:12.839 solid community where probably you know, seventy to eighty percent 107 00:06:12.839 --> 00:06:15.839 of the people that live there have Dutch last names. 108 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:18.000 You know, de cook is the last is a Dutch name. 109 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:22.879 Ardsman is a Dutch name. And it was always a 110 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:28.800 very very pretty tidy town, very religious right along Lake Michigan, 111 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:31.680 and it was just it was a good place to 112 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:35.879 grow up, but it was very It was kind of 113 00:06:35.879 --> 00:06:39.360 culturally stifling in the nineteen sixties too, because you know, 114 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:41.680 you knew all this great stuff was going on in 115 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:44.560 other places and it wasn't going on in Holland, and 116 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:48.160 so students like Betsrs kind of daring to get away. 117 00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:53.720 Now, we mentioned in the introduction, and I just like, 118 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:55.759 very much like myself. I don't think a lot of 119 00:06:55.800 --> 00:07:00.639 people know what exactly you're talking. But when you talk 120 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:03.480 about stacks, so tell us a little bit about the 121 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:05.959 and again if I mispronounced it, correct me. Please the 122 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:09.800 pet Library at Penn State and tell us explain the. 123 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:15.360 Stacks what they call the library in many respects for 124 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:18.040 lack of a better definition, that's where the books are kept. 125 00:07:18.600 --> 00:07:22.639 That's where they're stored. And in big academic libraries like this, 126 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:26.279 they're not really like your your local public library. 127 00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:26.560 You know. 128 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:29.879 These stacks can go on for floor after floor, you know, 129 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:33.560 and they're just they can be very very large and 130 00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:36.720 dark and a little bit scary sometimes and certainly the 131 00:07:36.759 --> 00:07:40.560 ones in Petite Library were like that. They were poorly lit, 132 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:45.519 they were cramped, they were confined, they were claustrophobic, you know, 133 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:49.439 And even before this happened, students were often a little 134 00:07:49.480 --> 00:07:51.680 bit nervous about going in there, just because it was 135 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:53.160 so easy to get lost. 136 00:07:56.480 --> 00:07:59.720 Now, you talk about the state of Penn State itself 137 00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:04.240 and the state of the nation in November nineteen sixty nine, 138 00:08:04.319 --> 00:08:06.160 so as you do in the book, give us a 139 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:08.879 little bit of the background, especially in the context of 140 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:11.360 the university itself, and you say that it was in 141 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:17.160 the midst of racial unrest, but really vast, vast majority 142 00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:20.279 of white students. So tell us what the state was 143 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:20.920 at that time. 144 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:27.959 I lost you. Are you still there? 145 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:28.920 Yes? 146 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:31.160 I am okay. 147 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:32.639 I asked basically, what. 148 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:38.759 Nineteen sixty nine? What was going on there? Sure, in 149 00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:42.759 nineteen sixty nine, obviously the Vietnam War was raging. You know, 150 00:08:42.799 --> 00:08:46.399 Penn State had a very small but very active chapter 151 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:49.399 of Students for a Democratic Society, you know, the left 152 00:08:49.399 --> 00:08:54.360 wing student protest group, And it also had a very 153 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:58.679 small but active group of black students who were trying 154 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:01.600 to get more black students to Penn State, which had 155 00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:05.960 a scandalously small black enrollment for the size of the 156 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:08.279 school and the number of blacks in the state. 157 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:09.200 Uh. 158 00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:11.720 And and so there were at the same time the 159 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:15.000 anti war things were going on. UH, there were also 160 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:19.200 you know, efforts by the black students to gain more recognition. 161 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:22.440 You know, there were protests during football games, you know 162 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:26.000 that sort of thing. It seemed like something is always 163 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:31.480 going on. There were you know, takeovers and buildings by 164 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:32.440 by students. 165 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:32.720 Uh. 166 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:35.639 It was just it was not that unusual in terms 167 00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:38.799 of what was happening at other colleges and the universities 168 00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:42.200 around the United States, but it was for Penn State. 169 00:09:42.279 --> 00:09:43.519 It was definitely something new. 170 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:50.120 Now you talk about the library itself, the pat Library, 171 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:55.159 and you know, the times being much much different. There 172 00:09:55.200 --> 00:09:59.080 were reports before this incident and before we talk about 173 00:09:59.120 --> 00:10:03.639 that of the goings on at this library, and we 174 00:10:03.879 --> 00:10:08.480 just scratched at the surface to describe the scenario in 175 00:10:08.519 --> 00:10:12.879 this library where people would be doing research and at 176 00:10:12.919 --> 00:10:16.480 this time it was just just Thanksgiving. But let's talk 177 00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:19.000 about some of the incidents and some of the things 178 00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:22.720 that just seemed to be as the police dismissed at 179 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:25.480 the time as sort of routine and nothing to really 180 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:28.879 be so concerned about. 181 00:10:29.919 --> 00:10:35.480 Sure. During the year nineteen sixty nine, there were increasing 182 00:10:35.559 --> 00:10:40.080 numbers of obsessionally related incidents. You know. This could be 183 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:43.960 you know, anything from somebody a man exposing himself to 184 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:48.679 female students, you know, or you know, masturbating or you know, 185 00:10:49.320 --> 00:10:53.440 you know, touching them, you know, groping them. These sort 186 00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:57.879 of things were going on, and they had a real 187 00:10:57.919 --> 00:11:00.600 problem in dealing with them because they had no at 188 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:03.080 that time, for at least for part of that year, 189 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:07.279 they had no security guards devoted to the library. The 190 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:10.080 campus patrol at Penn State this you know, the beyond 191 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:15.519 campus security force. The leader that refused to dedicate any 192 00:11:15.559 --> 00:11:17.799 of his patrolmen just to the library. He said, look, 193 00:11:17.840 --> 00:11:20.799 I've got you know, fifty some more buildings to the patrol. 194 00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:25.440 I can't give you just your your own h campus 195 00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:29.759 patrol guy. Even though all these things were happening and 196 00:11:29.799 --> 00:11:32.440 they weren't stopping. I mean, in the in the weeks 197 00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:35.399 leading up to to Betsy's murder, you know, there were 198 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:39.200 several incidents like this, you know, and the director of 199 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:42.080 the library you know, would find himself you know, comforting, 200 00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:45.919 you know, weeping, hysterical, you know, female students who had 201 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:50.440 been you know, groped or you know, in other ways 202 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:54.639 sexually assaulted by these people, and and they would just 203 00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:59.240 uh he would he would call the campus patrol, and 204 00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:01.720 they wouldn't arrived in time. You know, by the time 205 00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:03.799 or by the time they got there, the person who 206 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:06.159 did it was long gone, you know. And it was 207 00:12:06.200 --> 00:12:10.639 also another thing that the t Library was was known 208 00:12:10.679 --> 00:12:13.559 for at the time was gay cruising. 209 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:14.039 Uh. 210 00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:17.080 It was seen by gays from around the region as 211 00:12:17.320 --> 00:12:22.799 a fairly safe place to look for sexual partners. And 212 00:12:23.399 --> 00:12:25.759 so this was going on. You know, some of it 213 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:31.200 was non controversial and semi legitimate, but in other instances, 214 00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:34.440 you know, it was pretty weird stuff that was happening. 215 00:12:34.519 --> 00:12:37.759 And so there was this this was all a backdrop 216 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:42.759 what happened Number twenty eight nine library, and there were 217 00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:46.080 the local the campus patrol was not really doing anything 218 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:46.559 about it. 219 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:53.519 Now you talk about it being the Thanksgiving weekend, that 220 00:12:53.559 --> 00:12:56.360 there was a one third less people that would have 221 00:12:56.360 --> 00:12:58.919 been in attendance, But this does not mean that this 222 00:12:59.360 --> 00:13:03.399 library was deserted in any way. Tell us how busy 223 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:09.440 this library was before we talk about the individual you've described, 224 00:13:09.480 --> 00:13:12.360 where a person could be just inches away from somebody 225 00:13:12.360 --> 00:13:15.159 else and not be able to hear or see that 226 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:19.000 other person. So tell us about the library. It's a 227 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:21.200 little bit more about the library set up itself. 228 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:29.759 Sure, the stacks. Unlike in some big libraries, anybody could 229 00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:31.360 go down to the stacks and look for the books. 230 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:34.799 There are libraries, probably more of them today where you 231 00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:37.039 have to ask the librarian to go get the book 232 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:39.559 for you. But Penn State was not like that, and 233 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:43.679 students can just wander the stacks. But as I had 234 00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:49.759 said before, they were very dimly lit. And because you know, 235 00:13:49.159 --> 00:13:53.480 the roads, the stacks of bookshelves were so close together, 236 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:56.200 it was entirely possible that you could be on one 237 00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:59.840 side of a stack and somebody else could be on 238 00:13:59.879 --> 00:14:02.039 the other side and you wouldn't even know it. Uh, 239 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:04.320 you know, was assuming they weren't making any noise. It 240 00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:06.320 was just that claustrophobic. 241 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:15.360 Now let's talk about Betsy ruth Ardsma, her parents, and 242 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:17.759 a little bit about her background. We always talk about 243 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:21.559 how good the person is after they passed away, and 244 00:14:21.639 --> 00:14:24.000 how innocent this person is. But tell us, as you 245 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:27.320 do in the book, what was Betsy ruth Ardsma really like? 246 00:14:29.240 --> 00:14:32.799 Well, she was as one of her neighbors, and one 247 00:14:32.840 --> 00:14:35.480 of my high school classmates described her, you know, she 248 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:40.679 was smart to be kind, and she was. She was 249 00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:43.320 six years older than me. I didn't know her personally, 250 00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:47.600 but you know, we went to the same high school, 251 00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:51.480 and and so she was. She was a very good student, 252 00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:53.159 you know, near the top of her class. You know, 253 00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:55.679 always look in the you know, the top, you know, 254 00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:58.159 five or six at the at the very very lowest, 255 00:14:58.279 --> 00:15:01.039 you know. And so she was. She was intelligent, she 256 00:15:01.159 --> 00:15:03.639 was driven, you know, she wanted to go to college, 257 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:06.840 you know, to you know, do something to save the world, 258 00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:10.120 you know. And and she was just I mean, you 259 00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:12.679 can't find anyone to say anything bad about her. She 260 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:15.759 was just, you know, one of those young women who 261 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:19.799 you know, did everything right. And that's why it was 262 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:25.039 so unusual that she became a murder victim. Her parents 263 00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:28.000 were also college educated, which they have both of your 264 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:32.000 parents college educated in Holland at that time. Was not 265 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:34.240 out of the not out of the question. I mean, 266 00:15:34.279 --> 00:15:39.399 my parents were both college educated, and but it was 267 00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:43.639 fairly unusual. And they had both parents had gone to 268 00:15:43.639 --> 00:15:46.440 Hope College, which is in Holland, Michigan, and that's where 269 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:52.159 Betty started out and she even when she was in 270 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:55.240 high school, she had dreams of becoming a physician, not 271 00:15:55.279 --> 00:15:58.080 a nurse, but a physician, which was very unusual in 272 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:00.720 the late nineteen sixties. I mean that the percentage of 273 00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:03.919 women in American medical schools at that time was in 274 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:07.720 the single digits, you know, and it was so she 275 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:10.759 was unusual in that way. She was an early feminist, 276 00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:13.320 her friends told me when I was doing the research 277 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:16.799 for this book, you know, and so, but she was 278 00:16:16.840 --> 00:16:21.159 also very trusting h and kind of have that small 279 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:24.039 town outlook, you know, where you don't really think of 280 00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:27.679 that person you med as being a potential threat, even 281 00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:29.879 though they might be a little bit you know, different 282 00:16:29.919 --> 00:16:30.720 than you're used to. 283 00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:32.799 H And but. 284 00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:36.679 You know, she was just all, like to say, she 285 00:16:36.759 --> 00:16:39.879 was really a good person, you know. And it's funny 286 00:16:39.919 --> 00:16:43.360 that state who investigated her, the one who went out 287 00:16:43.399 --> 00:16:46.720 to Michigan, uh to find out what she was like 288 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:51.200 fresh frustration that they couldn't find any you know, moral 289 00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:54.519 failings in her life, because that's what police do a 290 00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:57.320 lot of times, you know, moral failings in the victim's 291 00:16:57.399 --> 00:17:00.840 life often leads them to the killer. But there was 292 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:04.920 nothing in her life that led them to the man 293 00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:05.559 that killed her. 294 00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:13.279 The very ironic thing was that she could have went 295 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:18.440 to another school, but she was afraid of because it 296 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:21.799 was a serial killer. Loosen an Arbor in Michigan tell 297 00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:22.440 us about this. 298 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:31.960 Yeah, she in the period from about nineteen sixty eight, 299 00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:34.720 you know, through the summer of nineteen sixty nine, but 300 00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:39.039 mostly in nineteen sixty nine, there was a serial killer 301 00:17:39.319 --> 00:17:42.440 who we now know by the name of John Norman Collins, 302 00:17:42.920 --> 00:17:47.519 who was killing young women in and around the University 303 00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:50.599 of Michigan and in and around Eastern Michigan University, which 304 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:55.279 is maybe ten miles from UVM in Ipsilanti, Michigan. And 305 00:17:56.359 --> 00:18:00.680 he always went for brunettes, for pretty brunettes, and that 306 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:03.599 was always stressed in the stories about, you know, the 307 00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:07.559 latest victim being found, you know, and and these were 308 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:10.759 And I looked through the newspapers in Michigan from that time, 309 00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:15.000 and nearly all of them ran all the stories about, 310 00:18:15.079 --> 00:18:18.200 you know, about the killings in ann Arbor, certainly the 311 00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:21.119 Holland Sentinel. Did you know the Arsma family read that 312 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:25.440 read those stories and were totally freaked out because Betsy 313 00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:29.079 was a pretty brunette. Wow, if you if you look 314 00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:32.400 at the nitty gritty of this. She was actually quite 315 00:18:32.599 --> 00:18:36.440 several inches taller than most of Collins's victims. But if 316 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:37.960 you're a parent, you're not going to make, you know, 317 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:40.200 a distinction like that. You know, all you can think 318 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:43.640 of is that your daughters are and some madman is 319 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:50.160 gonna kill her. Uh So, she she could have gone 320 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:54.640 the University of Michigan for graduate school in English. She 321 00:18:54.680 --> 00:18:56.960 had wanted to actually to go into the Peace Corps, 322 00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:01.400 but she had the study boyfriend, David Wright, who was 323 00:19:01.720 --> 00:19:04.960 in the going off to medical school in Pennsylvania, and 324 00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:10.839 he basically had said that he would really rather she 325 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:13.599 didn't go into the Peace Corps. And and and Kane 326 00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:17.119 followed him to Pennsylvania. And at the same time her 327 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:20.319 parents were were putting a lot of pressure on her 328 00:19:20.599 --> 00:19:23.160 to get out of ann Arbor, you know, because of 329 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:27.160 the serial killer. Now, Collins was actually arrested in I 330 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:29.559 think it was August of nineteen sixty nine, before she 331 00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:34.279 actually started at penn State. But at the time, no 332 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:36.720 one was really sure if he had acted alone, you know, 333 00:19:36.759 --> 00:19:39.920 they didn't because he had been seen in the company 334 00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:43.079 of other men, you know, on the Knights that he 335 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:46.440 killed somebody and so there was still a lot of 336 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:51.039 doubt as to whether, you know, maybe there was out 337 00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:56.400 there still. But in any case, Betsy decided, you know, 338 00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:00.359 for you know, personal romantic reasons and given under the 339 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:02.440 pressure you know, from her parents and from her uncle 340 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:06.519 and aunt, that she would go to Penn State in 341 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:11.359 Pennsylvania and essentially follow her boyfriend you know there, And 342 00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:14.079 and that's how she ended up at Penn State, and 343 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:16.039 ironically that's where she was killed. 344 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:21.079 Let's get to November twenty eighth, nineteen sixty nine, as 345 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:25.880 you write about a woman, another graduate student, Merrily Early 346 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:29.480 and she's in the Level two core area in the 347 00:20:29.480 --> 00:20:34.720 basement stacks of the Pati Library that evening, and she 348 00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:37.119 knew Betty from a couple of classes. So tell us 349 00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:40.599 what she's she experiences with Betsy that evening. 350 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:47.759 So Merrily uh open the English five of one class, 351 00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:52.279 which was kind of a boot camp for new graduate 352 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:55.240 students in English. You know, it taught you how to 353 00:20:55.240 --> 00:20:57.599 to research and write you know, papers like a like 354 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:01.880 a true scholar. And and all of the students in 355 00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:05.400 that class had paper zoo shortly after the Thanksgiving break, 356 00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:07.640 and so many of them had not gone home because 357 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:10.400 they needed to finish the paper. You know, Merrilee was one. 358 00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:13.799 You know, Bessie was another, and there were there any 359 00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:17.440 number of other ones, other members of that class who 360 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:21.519 were in the library that day. Merrily saw that's in 361 00:21:21.559 --> 00:21:25.599 the library before all this happened. But at around five 362 00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:30.039 or five pm, in in the stacks of the library, 363 00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:35.480 the level two stacks, Merri Lee and another student by 364 00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:38.480 the name of Juahua Finda who was a foreign student 365 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:43.960 from Mozambique. He they they heard what basically what sounded 366 00:21:44.039 --> 00:21:47.480 like a fist hitting a chest. Uh And and there 367 00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:51.279 there was no no other noise, There was no no screams, 368 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:55.039 no argument, just that's sign of a fist hitting a chest, 369 00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:58.880 which we now believe was the knife in his hand 370 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:04.480 going into a chest. And so Merrily is standing there 371 00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:06.920 and all of a sudden, out of the sacks comes 372 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:09.480 this man racing who I call him the book, the 373 00:22:09.559 --> 00:22:14.079 running man and the stacks. He was dressed better than 374 00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:19.319 a typical student. He was wearing khaki kaki pants and 375 00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:22.799 a sports jacket. And he looked up at at at 376 00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:27.920 Merrily Early and Johafinda and said, somebody better helped that girl. 377 00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:30.880 But it wasn't going to be him. He kept on going, 378 00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:36.559 and so juah Offinda whose English was so so his 379 00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:40.359 native language was h was Portuguese. He knew a little 380 00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:42.440 bit of French and he but he hadn't learned English 381 00:22:42.519 --> 00:22:45.680 until he came to this country, and so he was 382 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:49.079 he could get along, but it wasn't perfect English. And 383 00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:53.559 but anyway, so he thinks that he heard the killer 384 00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:56.880 say somebody better, we need to go help that girl. 385 00:22:57.119 --> 00:22:59.559 So he starts following him, you know, and and they 386 00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:03.200 he kind of runs after him as that the killer 387 00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:06.920 runs around you know, the core area and then heads 388 00:23:06.920 --> 00:23:11.440 out probably the other door of the library and will 389 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:14.039 finda lost him and then just you know, kind of 390 00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:16.319 gave up and walked home and didn't know for several 391 00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:20.680 days that he had been in the aftermath of a murder. Meanwhile, 392 00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:25.359 Mary Lee is by herself there in the stacks, and 393 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:29.200 she kind of goes to investigate where she heard that 394 00:23:29.319 --> 00:23:30.920 sound of the fist. And then I as I should 395 00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:33.279 have mentioned before, there was also the sound of falling 396 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:37.559 books and so and there was no more than about, 397 00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:39.519 you know, fifteen twenty feet that she had to go. 398 00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:42.440 And she goes around the corner of one of these 399 00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:47.880 you know, Florida ceiling stacks of books and sees Betsy 400 00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:50.119 Arisma laying on the floor. And she knew Betsy, she 401 00:23:50.200 --> 00:23:54.319