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Speaker 1: For real this time, Warren, sound check.

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Speaker 2: I think I'm still here.

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Speaker 1: All right, you are welcome, glad to have you. Jillian, Hello, Hello,

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welcome back after your time jet setting around the world

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or whatever you were doing.

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Speaker 3: I was helping somebody move last week.

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Speaker 4: So now that I like live back home my family,

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I keep on being expected to be like a real

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adult who shows.

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Speaker 5: Up for them.

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Speaker 3: It's been quite the transition for me. So there we go.

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Speaker 1: And then joining us today, Adriana. I forgot to ask

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how to pronounce your last name Valleyla Valela Valela. Oh

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you were close everybody that's an e in there. Yeah, yeah,

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I should probably have my glasses checked. But hey, welcome.

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I'm glad to have you here, happy to here right on.

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So the big thing I want to shout out right

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away is you are the host of the Geeking Out podcast.

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I am right on, so tell us how that's going.

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Speaker 5: So I started the podcast, say twenty twenty three. I

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was in the fall of twenty twenty three. It came

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on the heels of a previous podcast that I was

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doing through work with former coworker of mine on the

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Margarita Medina and Our podcast. And this was a work

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related podcast, and you had the best name. It was

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called on Call Me Maybe. Damn it. It was like

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so much fun. We had about two seasons of it.

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I want to say it was like about twenty six episodes,

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and then we were no longer able to continue it.

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So then I thought, well, I want to still keep podcasting,

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so I started my own podcast, Geeking Out. And then

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I was because we used to have like an editor

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for on Call Me Maybe, and I'm like, damn it,

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I don't know how to do any of this podcast

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editing stuff. And my daughter, who I guess was fourteen

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at the time, she's like, I'll help you out, mom.

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So I'm like, okay. So she helps me out with

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the editing. I've up to my editing game as well.

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But she's also designed the logo for it, which has

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copy batas, which I love. I don't know. They're just

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fun animals, and I got introduced to them on Instagram.

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I started like getting all these videos. I'm like, oh

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my god, where have you been all my life? So anyway,

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they're like our mascot, so cute. They're doable because I

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just scored a couple at Miniso. I don't know if

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you guys have that in the States. But yeah, it

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was Yeah. I was like, oh my god, this is

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the best. And yeah, and the podcast itself I have.

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It's a tech podcast. I interview a lot of folks

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in tech. I especially like to give voices to women

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and other under ruppers groups, and of had a I

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don't know a combination of people who are both super

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well known in the industry and not so well known.

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So I guess my highest profile guest was Kelsey high Tower.

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I've had Charity Majors, Liz Fung, Jones, Hazel Weekly, so

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lots of lots of fun guests and then other people

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that I've met along the way where I'm like, you

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have such a cool story, you should be on my podcast.

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Speaker 1: Right, Like, once you start a podcast, like you're always

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it feels like a sales role, like always be closing.

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You know, you're always like trying to pull people into

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the show.

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Speaker 5: So true.

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Speaker 1: True, So you're also a CNCF ambassador and principal developer

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advocate at Dina Trace. That's correct, right on, Dina Trace

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is cool. Like some of the stuff that they expose

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and dig into, it's like, wow, you you went way

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deeper into this than I wanted to go.

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Speaker 5: It's so true and it's funny. So I just I

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just started my job at Dina Trace in November of

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last year, so I'm pretty fresh, and you know, I

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I I came in because of my connection to the

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open telemetry community and my previous job. I was a

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developer advocate at light Step, which had gotten acquired by

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a service now, so I'd gotten into the open telemetry

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and observability community and and so when I joined Dina Trace,

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I'm like, well, you know, it's like also an observability vendor,

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but it's like so much more. And so one of

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my one of my co workers, h Andy Grabner, he's

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been with Dina Trace forever. I call him mister Dina

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Trace because he's like he's so he's so passionate about

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the platform and what we do and and everything. And

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he's really helped me. Uh He's given me a tour

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of the platform, and we have this video series that started.

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It started because he was like, hey, you know, it

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would be good for you to like get to know

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the platform. And every time he showed me new stuff,

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I'm like, dude, this stuff is so cool. You know

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it would be really fun if we did like a

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YouTube reaction video series kind of thing where you just

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show me stuff for the first time and I react

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to it. So then we started this video series called

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Dina Trace. Can do that with open telemetry, and my

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reactions are are like O natural because I can't act.

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So it's been it's been a fun way to learn

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about what the product does and also like share share

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that same wonder with the rest of the world.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, Dina Trace is like a gateway drug,

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Like you come for the observability and then you're like,

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oh wow, and then just go deep down the rabbit hole.

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Speaker 2: That name sounds familiar. It was was Grabner on our

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show already.

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Speaker 1: He was, yeah, I think it's been Actually, I don't

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know how long ago. I had this conversation with my

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I have this conversation with my wife the other day.

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Like I have three time periods in my life. I

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can group things like prior to nineteen ninety, between nineteen

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ninety and yesterday and today, and I can't get any

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more granular than that.

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Speaker 2: I think that's one up on most of the population, though,

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like what happened five minutes ago and that's it, right, So.

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Speaker 5: True Also, I thought nineteen ninety was like yesterday, Like

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where did this time go?

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Speaker 1: Don't do the math, don't do the math. It's just

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gonna do no.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 5: It really depresses me when people are like so I

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was like born in nineteen ninety three. I'm like, oh,

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I was in my first year of high school. Cool.

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Speaker 1: Cool. So we were going to talk today about observability

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in the CICD platform, So tell me a little bit

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about what that means to you.

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Speaker 5: So, I guess the main thing is, I think when

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we talk about observability, there's thillse this uh stigma. I

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guess I don't know if stigma is the right word,

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but we have this association that observability is like an

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essry concern, right, because that's that's where when when things

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go kaka in prad, you know, you you turn to

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your observability solution and look through you know, the traces,

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the logs and metrics to figure out what's going on

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and all that, which is awesome, but you know, it's

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it's so much more than that, because, first of all,

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like it, observability is a team sport, right in order

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for that telemetry to even get emitted in the first

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place and it Yes, there's some telemetry that you automatically

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pick up from from your infrastructure and whatnot, but there's

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also the telemetry that has to be written by somebody, right,

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so you're you're developers and and so the developers have

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to care about observability, right, So now we're we're not

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seeing observability is just like, oh, it's not just a

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necessary thing. Someone had to put in that telemetry in

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order for us to be able to even have this

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conversation of understanding what our system's doing. And we can

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take it a step further and say, well, you know

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what if during the software development life cycle, like you know,

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developers instrument their code. This gets handed off to QA,

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and QA can use the observability data and say, hey,

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I can use this to troubleshoot my code or to

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troubleshoot the code that I'm testing, and I can provide

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that feedback then to developers and say hey, I found

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a bug and this is what's happening. Or they can

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say hey, I found a bug. I don't know why

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this is happening. You need to instrument better. So now

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we're like we're shifting, We're shifting left right on observability.

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So we've got so we've got the development side, we've

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got the qaside, we've got the production side with with

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our sries and whatnot. But then there's that also piece

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in the middle, which is, you know, our CICD pipelines

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that we've come to rely heavily on our CICD pipelines

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to ensure that our code gets built and our automatic

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automated tests get run and gets deployed to production. Awesome,

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but like what happens when that pipeline goes KACA Because

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that pipeline, even though it's internal in itself, it is

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a production system. So how frustrating is it when you've

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got you know, your CICD pipeline is working like a

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well oiled machine, and you're like, this is amazing, And

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then you come to realize that suddenly one day something

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goes weird, some change was made, and you have no

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idea why it's failing, And wouldn't it be nice if

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we could also have observability into our CIICD pipelines. And

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so we are starting to see a movement in that direction,

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which is amazing because now we're no longer in the

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dark around around our CICD pipeline. So this is for me.

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I think this is a really fascinating topic. I dug

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into it a little bit a couple of years back.

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So I have I have this video course that I

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did with O'Reilly that it came out last year early

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last year, and as part of it, I'm like, hey,

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I want to do something on observability CICD pipelines. Is

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like just a short chapter on that. And then I'm

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like starting to do some research. I'm like, crap, there's

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like nothing on this, what the hell? And then I

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was I was messaging one of my friends in open Telemetry.

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We we're both maintainers of the Open Telemetry and User

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SIG and we've done a bunch of talks together. She's

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she's my hotel writer. Recently, we we we talked at

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keep Con together all the time. It's like it's a

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great partnership. And I'm messengering her. I'm like, you know,

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there's really not a lot of material out there on

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the observability of c ICD pipelines. She's like, that could

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be a really good talk topic. I'm like, that's so awesome.

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So we we put together we put together a talk

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I think it was I want to say it was

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I want to say it was cubecan Chicago in twenty

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twenty three that we we talked. We did that talk

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for Observability Day, and it's been nice to see that

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space evolve over time. I think there's now an official

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like CICD SIG within open Telemetry I want to say,

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so then there's actual like movement towards standardizing the observability

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around CICD, because at the time when we were we

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were doing the stuff, like when we were investigating, it

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was this mish mash of tools that were available. So like,

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for example, depending on what tool used for CICD. So

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Jenkins for example, had some observability capabilities built in, so

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it did emit some like hotel some Hotel signals. But

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then get Hub if you wanted to have like observable

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get hub actions, there's some like homegrown options. But now

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that means you're having to rely on someone else maintaining

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that if you want to have observable CICD pipelines, And

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then what if they stopped maintaining those get hub acts,

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are they discontinue?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Right, So like that that's a little bit scary if

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you want to rely on that get lab. At the

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time when we were investigating they they were starting they

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were having conversations around standardizing around that answable. At the time,

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I think they had like an hotel plug in so

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you can have like uh, when you're when you're doing

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your your ANTSPEL playbooks, you have some observability around that.

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And then there's there is I want to say, there

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was like an hotel. I forget now what it's called,

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but basically you could have hotel for Bash. And it

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was funny. We were we were talking about this at

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our talk and then later at that cupcon recent I

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met the person who who created that, Amy Toby from

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She used to work at Equinox, but she created that tool.

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I'm like, oh my god, like mega fangirling. I'm like,

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we talked about your.

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Speaker 3: Tool and you're here.

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Speaker 1: So when we talk about observability in the C I

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C D pipeline, what kind of metrics or insights are

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you looking to expose there?

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Speaker 5: You're wanting to look at things like how long you're

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spending on on your builds, how long you're spending like

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at each stage of your pipeline, for example, identifying pipeline failures.

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That's another thing, because and and and being able to

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standardize it with open telemetry in particular, because I think

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that's the main thing too, is because like a lot

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of I would say, a lot of the industry has

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moved towards standardizing on open telemetry, making sure that then

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we're still continuing to speak that same language.

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Speaker 2: Right, gotcha.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So then you still have access to all of

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those same insights, but you get it from your same

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observability tool that you get all of your other metrics.

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Speaker 5: From exactly exactly. And and also like you know, you

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add distributed tracing into the into the mix, and all

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of a sudden, now you're also able to have this

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nice visualization of like your your build pipeline, right you

250
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can you can see like all of the stages nicely

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as well through through your observability vendor, which I think

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is really cool.

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Speaker 2: I think I think every company I worked for had

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a pretty good hands on strategy for managing observability of

255
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their pipelines. Whenever it failed, someone got an email and

256
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then they went to the product and they clicked retry.

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Speaker 3: So my favorite one is when you're in a feting

258
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and somebody's like, shouldn't this have been done already?

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Speaker 4: And then I go and I check the pipeline and

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I'm like, well it should have, but it failed and

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so it didn't.

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Speaker 3: And then.

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Speaker 2: You didn't even have the emails. Yeah, that's step one.

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Speaker 3: No, it's just it's too many emails and then I

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turn them off.

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Speaker 4: It's like how every like messaging platform is really great

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until everybody's on there and then I get too many

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messages and then I and then I turn it off.

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Speaker 2: It's like, oh, I mean, let's let's go the horror

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story route. So the one I know is we were

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using SPN at the time, so already a great start.

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Speaker 5: Oh damn.

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Speaker 2: And this was an upgrade from what my previous company

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had been doing, which was no source control for their

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source code. So this was yeah, this was like, wow,

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actually there is a company that knows how to do

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source control. Because I had been using get for a

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lot of years before that, and so I was shocked

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that this is what the state of the industry was.

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But the genius thing was that you couldn't figure out,

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like you knew who the committer was for each each failure,

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but you had no idea if it was like their fault.

283
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So the genius thing was that they converted it so

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that when an email went out, they tried to dynamically

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figure out who made the change that actually caused the problem,

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so that they could actually put the right people in

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the email. Like this was. This is not a trivial thing,

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especially if there's like you know, multiple things going on.

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You have two thousand engineers committing to the same mono repo. Yeah,

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I don't work there anymore.

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Speaker 3: Did you take two thousand, two thousand engineers?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Is that like real or is that hyper because that's

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a lot of engineers too.

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Speaker 2: That's a lot of engineers.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean there's like I mean monolists and mono repos

298
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like this is the this is the Google way right there.

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I think that's the two trains of companies here, the

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ones that go well oiled monolith on one side and I

301
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mean right before well the oil model that there's like

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distributed monolith, and then on the other side is micro

303
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services everywhere and individual repository. So the closer you get

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to the monolith side, the more you have just engineers

305
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thrown at the problem. I think Google last check was

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like over one hundred thousand or something like. It's it's

307
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a massive number that these companies try to make happen,

308
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So two thousand is not that big in my in

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my experience, you know.

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Speaker 5: You mentioning SVN. I worked at a place that used

311
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this version control tool called Harvest.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you beat me, because I don't

313
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know that one. I like, I have a long list

314
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of ones that I've seen and Harvest is not on

315
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that list.

316
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Speaker 5: And it was like such a piece of crap. And

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it was one of those ones to where you had

318
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to like check in check out the file. So like

319
00:17:58,319 --> 00:18:01,000
while that file was checked check doubt, you know, no one,

320
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no one could touch it. And I mean it was

321
00:18:04,559 --> 00:18:09,480
better than I've worked at places where we had a

322
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network drive with the source code, pray pray that someone

323
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didn't overwrite your work.

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Speaker 2: So at least by default, even on Windows, there's a

325
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little bit of conflict resolution. But before I convinced my

326
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company to move to GET, at the time they were

327
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using before SPN, they were actually using uh Perforce by Microsoft,

328
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and that didn't have file conflict resolution. So if two

329
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people committed a file at the same time, it would

330
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literally crash the entire database and you were not restoring

331
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your source code.

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Speaker 5: Now, has anyone ever used ClearCase.

333
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Speaker 2: You go to tell us that you have an hotel

334
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uh for for every single source codel?

335
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Speaker 5: Oh my god, wouldn't that be something? But ClearCase I

336
00:19:01,079 --> 00:19:04,240
think they were bought by IBM at some point and

337
00:19:04,839 --> 00:19:09,519
it was the most ridiculous source control system ever because

338
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you had to write like configurations for being able to

339
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do the source control. So it's like akin to like

340
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you know on mainframes where you have to write the

341
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JCL to like run your code. It was kind of

342
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,839
like that. It was like so archaic and like it

343
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,279
hurt my brain and I'm like, I don't want to

344
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touch version control ever again after this experience. And then

345
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we moved to GET and I'm like, thank god, someone

346
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understands me.

347
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Speaker 1: So, whenever we're talking about putting observability in a CICD platform,

348
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are there specific are there specific plug ins or specific

349
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tools that help you instrument this, or are we talking

350
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about just like using Bash and netcat to fire off

351
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data to an endpoint?

352
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:07,720
Speaker 5: So you if you're if you're c i CD tool

353
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supports it, then I would definitely say use whatever plugins

354
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are available the official plug ins. Use that because I

355
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,440
think that'll give you some good insights. But barring that,

356
00:20:21,839 --> 00:20:27,000
there is, for example, there is a plug in for

357
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:35,039
Java around uh, like specific for for Java builds. I

358
00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,359
believe that gives you some additional c I c D

359
00:20:38,759 --> 00:20:44,079
insights or stuff like around Maven and gradle uh. And

360
00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,920
then there's this, uh I'm trying to remember now what

361
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,519
the hotel bash thing is called. I'm going to just

362
00:20:50,559 --> 00:20:52,680
google this quickly dash.

363
00:20:54,519 --> 00:20:58,799
Speaker 2: Uh.

364
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,799
Speaker 5: I can't find the one I'm looking for. Oh yeah,

365
00:21:01,839 --> 00:21:04,000
open telementary cli hotel cli.

366
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Speaker 1: That's I could imagine that that one is probably pretty

367
00:21:11,279 --> 00:21:14,039
popular because I mean, let's just be honest, most of

368
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your CICD stuff is just a Bash command.

369
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Speaker 2: No, no, don't say that.

370
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Speaker 5: I mean, barring that, you can definitely you can definitely

371
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,680
use that. It's it'll at least give you something.

372
00:21:29,799 --> 00:21:32,720
Speaker 2: What do you have to instrument like within the pipeline.

373
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So I think we talked a little bit about the

374
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let's say, the steps or the jobs or the workflows

375
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that you have and the amount of time that they're

376
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spending in each one of them, or like where the

377
00:21:42,559 --> 00:21:46,160
failures end up being, especially for I mean c ID

378
00:21:46,279 --> 00:21:49,480
pipelines are notoriously flaky in some way, like maybe the

379
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package repository is down, or the machine runs out of

380
00:21:52,519 --> 00:21:55,680
memory or gets gets killed because gethub thinks that you're

381
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running a crypto minor on there, or any number of

382
00:21:59,519 --> 00:22:01,960
other things. But like you know, one one step above

383
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,920
that though, Uh, there's a lot that goes on during

384
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,480
the CICD pipelines. And I can imagine there's tools like

385
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,240
you have you mentioned a bunch like you know, say antsable,

386
00:22:10,279 --> 00:22:13,079
but obviously there's I A C stuff. Maybe you know

387
00:22:13,079 --> 00:22:17,279
you're building artifacts and whatnot. How hard is it to

388
00:22:17,319 --> 00:22:19,839
get into all those tools and get all that telementary

389
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,240
data to actually you know, export it out somewhere, even

390
00:22:22,279 --> 00:22:23,480
if the platform supports them.

391
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:29,119
Speaker 5: So one of the things that we explored was there's

392
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:34,640
this component of so for I don't know how familiar

393
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:36,960
you are with with open telemetry.

394
00:22:36,839 --> 00:22:38,839
Speaker 2: You're going to get a range of in the audience here,

395
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,279
like there are some that are going to be experienced

396
00:22:41,279 --> 00:22:43,319
and on the other side may have no idea what

397
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:45,440
you mean when you even say hotel all right.

398
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:51,160
Speaker 5: So, so basically open telemetry there's like a couple of parts.

399
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:52,599
There's like the A P I and s d K,

400
00:22:53,839 --> 00:22:58,960
so use that to instrument use that to instrument your code.

401
00:22:59,079 --> 00:23:02,079
So you go into your Java and Python code or whatnot,

402
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,920
and there's like a bunch of hotel languages that are supported,

403
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,640
and you go in and you write the instrumentation. So

404
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,599
that means like you're manually typing in like this is

405
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,960
where I want to insert my traces, my logs, my metrics.

406
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:23,359
There's also automatic instrumentation and where basically there's like essentially

407
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,119
like a wrapper around your code that as long as

408
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,079
you're using like certain like popular libraries like Python flasks

409
00:23:30,079 --> 00:23:35,880
for example, it'll it'll automatically generate some telemetry like some

410
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:40,240
traces for for for your code there for any code

411
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:44,279
like using using that library. But then there's another component

412
00:23:44,279 --> 00:23:46,960
in open telemetry, which is the Hotel collector. So that's

413
00:23:47,079 --> 00:23:50,559
a vendor neutral agent basically, and you can think of

414
00:23:50,599 --> 00:23:53,680
it as like an ETL tool, So it'll extract the

415
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:58,519
telemetry from multiple sources. So the sources can be like

416
00:23:58,599 --> 00:24:04,119
your applicationmetry can be your infrastructure telemetry from various various

417
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,920
things at the same time. And then there's processors which

418
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,640
basically can you know, massage your data. You can add attributes,

419
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:17,240
remove attributes. You can do some some transformations. So for example,

420
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:22,319
you know you're using like underscores and you're naming conventions

421
00:24:22,319 --> 00:24:25,960
for your attributes, but you're you want to switch to

422
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,200
like dot notation, use that, and you do. You do

423
00:24:30,279 --> 00:24:33,440
that in the collector and then it gets sent somewhere

424
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,880
and you can send it to multiple somewheres at the

425
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,759
same time with the collector. So basically this enables you

426
00:24:39,839 --> 00:24:43,720
to for example, if you don't have like an all

427
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,720
in one tool that can ingest all all of your

428
00:24:46,759 --> 00:24:49,039
telemetry that you're collecting, then you can send it like

429
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,359
to one tool for traces, one for logs, one for metrics.

430
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,279
I don't recommend that ideally, you want everything sitting in

431
00:24:55,319 --> 00:24:57,599
the same in the same back end, because then you

432
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,599
know you have like your single source of truth and

433
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,920
all the related data. But if that's your if that's

434
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,079
your setup, the open Plumetry Collector allows you to do that.

435
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,079
Now I'm trying to think of where I was going

436
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,599
with that when we were talking about the collector.

437
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:13,519
Speaker 2: You know, you can think about this for a moment.

438
00:25:13,759 --> 00:25:17,160
You know, just to sell hotel, you have three components here.

439
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,720
You have your code that's emitting traces or data or

440
00:25:20,759 --> 00:25:22,960
logged and you have someplace where you want to see them,

441
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,640
you know, maybe it's your grafhaunas, your elastic searches of

442
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,519
the world, and you could have a custom protocol and

443
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,920
for a long time you had a custom protocol, custom

444
00:25:31,039 --> 00:25:34,279
libraries on the software development side to get that log

445
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,519
information from the source to the saying to the target

446
00:25:37,559 --> 00:25:40,000
where you wanted to go. And that means that every

447
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,160
single time you want to change which provider you were utilizing,

448
00:25:43,279 --> 00:25:45,920
or which language or which team you're working on, you

449
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,279
needed to find a new library for then the new

450
00:25:48,279 --> 00:25:49,920
thing that you were utilizing. Wouldn't it be great if

451
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,400
it was some sort of standard that made this all easy.

452
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:52,880
Speaker 3: You know.

453
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 2: That's hotel for me.

454
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,599
Speaker 5: Yeah, essentially, essentially.

455
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, I can see one problem here

456
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,319
is making sure that every single thing that you were

457
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,039
utilizing could be supported. For instance, you mentioned Python flask.

458
00:26:07,279 --> 00:26:09,240
You know, it's great that there's a library out there

459
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:10,839
that you can throw into Python flask or if it's

460
00:26:10,839 --> 00:26:13,559
supported by flask by default, and it just it just

461
00:26:13,599 --> 00:26:16,599
works because the output of those logs matches the standard.

462
00:26:16,759 --> 00:26:18,240
But I can imagine there's lots of tools that you

463
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,240
could be using you brought up you know, bashed cli

464
00:26:20,319 --> 00:26:22,519
as one of them, which you know don't have these

465
00:26:22,559 --> 00:26:24,519
things by default. My example would be, you know, let's

466
00:26:24,559 --> 00:26:30,319
assume everyone's using open tofood today. What is what does

467
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,680
that look like? You know it? Like? Does do these

468
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,319
tools I see offer configuration to make it easy to

469
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:37,559
do that or is it a matter of like having

470
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:42,599
to parse uh you know output you know, raw text

471
00:26:42,599 --> 00:26:44,000
out and get it converted.

472
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 5: Yes, now I remember I was going with that. Yeah, So, like,

473
00:26:48,319 --> 00:26:50,039
for example, one one thing that a lot of these

474
00:26:50,079 --> 00:26:52,960
tools have in common is that they met logs right,

475
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,720
and so you can so the hotel collector has this

476
00:26:57,799 --> 00:27:01,119
component called the foul Logs receiver where it can basically

477
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,079
just logs and it'll parse out your logs given like

478
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:09,039
some rejects expressions, so that you can do something useful

479
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:10,920
with the data and send that to you to your

480
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,599
hotel backend. So that's where you, you know, things that

481
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,920
aren't necessarily like have hotel baked in, you can kind

482
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,359
of turn it otel esque and get it to send

483
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,920
you send the hotel data that you need to hopefully

484
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:26,519
troubleshoot a little bit better.

485
00:27:27,519 --> 00:27:29,559
Speaker 2: So well, well, was about to make this joke, but

486
00:27:29,559 --> 00:27:33,160
I'm going to steal it from him because you I

487
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,519
think fundamentally, it's like, oh, I have a problem. The

488
00:27:36,559 --> 00:27:39,240
solution I know it's to use rejects. And when you

489
00:27:39,279 --> 00:27:41,000
think that the solution is red jocks, and now you

490
00:27:41,039 --> 00:27:42,039
have two problems.

491
00:27:42,799 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 5: I know, I always have to look up rejects anything.

492
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 2: I mean, I think this is where log for JA

493
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,319
the exploit ended up coming from, is having to parse

494
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,519
literally log messages that we're coming from everywhere, and you

495
00:27:58,559 --> 00:28:02,039
could get it too, execute arbitrary code because of it,

496
00:28:02,079 --> 00:28:05,079
and you know there's a number of huge gotcha's there

497
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,559
that if you'd not really experienced, especially parsing logs, that

498
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,640
you'll end up in situations with your reject will like

499
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,279
literally crash due to catastrophic backtracking.

500
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: So that's that's something I hadn't thought of, like when

501
00:28:18,039 --> 00:28:20,119
we first started talking about this, Like I was thinking

502
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,000
about like during the CICD process, you know, there's the

503
00:28:23,039 --> 00:28:28,319
build time, but then there's also like time associated with

504
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,720
you know, with Terraform going off and doing terraform things,

505
00:28:32,759 --> 00:28:37,599
which is can be really significant at times because sometimes

506
00:28:37,599 --> 00:28:43,160
you know, Terraform decides to just completely delete and rebuild

507
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,720
this thing from scratch. You're like, dude, I just I

508
00:28:45,759 --> 00:28:48,599
just wanted you to change this parameter, and so this

509
00:28:49,279 --> 00:28:51,279
could be a really good way of exposing that.

510
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's it's all of a sudden, like

511
00:28:56,279 --> 00:29:01,200
you're able to see the things that you weren't seeing

512
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:06,880
before necessarily, right, So it's not just the troubleshooting troubleshooting

513
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,400
when things go bad, but also like can I use

514
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:16,799
this information now to further optimize? And even the other

515
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,480
part too, which is like you think it's going okay

516
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,400
and you find out otherwise, right, like behind the scenes,

517
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,119
something very bad is happening that wouldn't have necessarily been

518
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,759
exposed because there's like no catastrophic failure of your pipeline

519
00:29:30,759 --> 00:29:34,119
as far as you're concerned. It's completing and things are

520
00:29:34,559 --> 00:29:36,880
you know, getting delivered, built and whatever.

521
00:29:39,039 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: That's one of my favorite phrases to hear is oh,

522
00:29:44,519 --> 00:29:46,079
that error message is okay.

523
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 2: No.

524
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,799
Speaker 1: No, just the fact that you called it an error

525
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,319
message makes it not okay. Can we agree on that?

526
00:29:55,319 --> 00:29:56,319
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly.

527
00:29:57,039 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 4: So.

528
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 2: I think because we're in the engineering discipline, you know,

529
00:29:59,759 --> 00:30:01,680
we have to be cognizant of this. And if we

530
00:30:01,759 --> 00:30:04,559
have new data available, new metrics that we're able to track.

531
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:06,799
It's going to create a signal that caused us to

532
00:30:06,839 --> 00:30:08,680
make a change. And so one of the questions I

533
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,160
want to ask you is do you feel like that

534
00:30:11,279 --> 00:30:16,279
Hotel has caused this shift in the mindset or focused

535
00:30:16,319 --> 00:30:19,640
areas that we've been dealing with in the last let's say,

536
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,680
before up and to this point. So I'm not sure

537
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,480
exactly how old it is. I want to say it's

538
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,400
like five years now, although that maybe that it's a

539
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:27,640
little bit short, not right.

540
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 5: It started in twenty nineteen.

541
00:30:29,799 --> 00:30:32,359
Speaker 2: Okay, great, So before that, you know, we didn't have it.

542
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,279
It's like, has there been some fundamental shift with how

543
00:30:35,319 --> 00:30:40,200
we're tackling problems in the observability space? And you said

544
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,200
shift left? So really development teams, engineering teams in general,

545
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,279
compared to what we were doing beforehand.

546
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:52,519
Speaker 5: I mean, I think with Hotel, because so pre Hotel,

547
00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:54,519
like it was kind of a free for all, and

548
00:30:54,599 --> 00:30:57,960
there had been attempts at standardization, right because there was

549
00:30:58,359 --> 00:31:01,960
open census on the one side from Google and then

550
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:07,279
open tracing from CNCF, and then like each vendor also

551
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:12,160
had their own thing. And so I think there's a

552
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:17,960
lot of time and effort expended into you know, maintaining

553
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,319
these like instrumentation libraries. And now with Hotel, I think

554
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,160
the conversation has shifted because we're like, Okay, this is

555
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,599
the single standard. We all agree that it's going to

556
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,319
work this way, and now we're not using like you know,

557
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,720
now it's not a single organization or individual organizations using

558
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,200
their brain power like I'm gonna say in air, it's

559
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,240
wasting their time on instrumentation libraries, because we're all like

560
00:31:43,319 --> 00:31:46,119
as competitors working together towards a common goal. So now

561
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,880
we're we're you know, combining brains towards a singular purpose,

562
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:55,880
which means then we're we've essentially democratized data in the

563
00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,960
sense that now all of these observability tools are ingesting

564
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:05,400
the same data. And so the differentiator is what do

565
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,160
they do with your data in a way that is

566
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:09,279
helpful to you?

567
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: Right?

568
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,079
Speaker 5: And the answer to that question varies, right because what's

569
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,279
meaningful to me might not be the same, it might

570
00:32:19,319 --> 00:32:23,000
not be as important to you. And I think the

571
00:32:23,079 --> 00:32:26,519
other thing that Hotel provides that open sends us and

572
00:32:26,599 --> 00:32:29,440
open Tracing didn't provide at the time was this unified

573
00:32:29,559 --> 00:32:33,480
view of TRACE's logs and metrics where now we have

574
00:32:33,599 --> 00:32:37,119
this ability. First of all, we have a standard for

575
00:32:37,319 --> 00:32:40,920
these three signals, but also we have correlation of the

576
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,319
three signals. And I think the correlation is really important

577
00:32:44,319 --> 00:32:50,079
because I I for me, at the backbone of observability

578
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,680
is the distributed trace, because it tells the story right

579
00:32:52,799 --> 00:32:56,200
end to end. And then you've got the supporting actors.

580
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,279
We've got the metrics that give us an idea of

581
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,559
thing like our CPU usage and are our RAM usage

582
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,759
or how long we've spent on a particular process, or

583
00:33:07,799 --> 00:33:10,559
even having an idea of like hey, I sold like

584
00:33:10,599 --> 00:33:15,799
fifty telescopes last month compared to this month. And then

585
00:33:15,839 --> 00:33:20,119
our logs that are like our point in time indicators, right,

586
00:33:20,279 --> 00:33:25,799
and all these things separate are like yeah, that's that's cool,

587
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,160
that's useful, but together like they paint that full picture. Right,

588
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,359
we have this very rich understanding of what's happening with

589
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,200
our systems. And I think that's that's the thing that

590
00:33:38,319 --> 00:33:42,559
observability brings us. And I'm going to borrow a definition

591
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,519
of observability that I really like from Hazel Weekly, which

592
00:33:45,599 --> 00:33:52,119
is observability allows us to ask meaningful questions, get useful

593
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,640
answers and act effectively on the information that we get.

594
00:33:56,559 --> 00:34:01,759
And I think we are we are getting to that point.

595
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,839
I'm not. I don't think we're fully there in the

596
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,719
same way that like you know, so many organizations back

597
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,480
in the day and maybe even to a certain extent now,

598
00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:15,519
or like we're doing DevOps because we have a CICD pipeline.

599
00:34:15,559 --> 00:34:18,960
It's like we have observability because we are collecting metrics

600
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,480
and sending them to Blah back in. It's like you're

601
00:34:24,079 --> 00:34:25,079
you're on your way.

602
00:34:26,559 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 3: There.

603
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 4: Yet I think the real thing there now is can

604
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,559
we have an AI agent that will look through your

605
00:34:32,599 --> 00:34:35,000
logs and tell you what the problem is, because that's

606
00:34:35,039 --> 00:34:35,880
what I think I need.

607
00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think a lot of vendors and that

608
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,000
is a fair ask, and I think a lot of

609
00:34:41,079 --> 00:34:44,840
vendors are moving in that direction. I mean, including Dino Trace.

610
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,079
Dina Trace has an AI assistant named Davis AI.

611
00:34:49,039 --> 00:34:51,679
Speaker 2: And well, I guess that's the success of hotel is

612
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,119
because now you can shop around for the provider that

613
00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:57,639
offers you that exact benefit without feeling like you you

614
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,320
lose your data or have to spend engineering time to

615
00:35:01,639 --> 00:35:06,519
actually adhere to whatever backwards protocol that that provider is offering.

616
00:35:07,159 --> 00:35:09,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, but like biologists don't like paying for stuff.

617
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,159
Speaker 2: I know, I know what it what it means. Like

618
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,320
when you say they don't like paying for stuff, what

619
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,320
they mean is they don't like paying for stuff when

620
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,719
that money has like clear price tags on it. But

621
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,679
when there's suspect value associated with running it yourself on

622
00:35:22,679 --> 00:35:26,119
on prem hardware, then they have no problem shelling out

623
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:28,800
you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars for it.

624
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 3: Well, that's true.

625
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,559
Speaker 4: I mean we can still have on site HPCs like

626
00:35:31,639 --> 00:35:33,800
that's that's fine, That's totally fine.

627
00:35:34,119 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 2: Right, just throw Grafana in your in your cluster and

628
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:41,639
you know, you can use your hotel collector and point

629
00:35:41,639 --> 00:35:43,679
it at that and you get all your data into

630
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,000
whatever you're saying. You know that Graffana is pointed at

631
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:48,000
and you're going to go.

632
00:35:49,599 --> 00:35:52,039
Speaker 4: I mean sometimes, but not all the platforms that I

633
00:35:52,119 --> 00:35:54,800
use have like all these nifty tools you know built

634
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,800
into them, like like the AWS, like Healthcare Pipeline platform

635
00:35:59,039 --> 00:36:00,440
does not have this stuff built in.

636
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 3: It just sends everything a cloud watch and then it's like, well,

637
00:36:05,039 --> 00:36:05,679
good luck with that.

638
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 1: I think you, I think you started that problem. Definition

639
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,039
with the problem a ws.

640
00:36:14,039 --> 00:36:16,599
Speaker 4: WS is listen, I'm still I'm still on my like

641
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,880
drifting like a WS pay my bills please, So we

642
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,079
can't we can't bad talk them because every once in

643
00:36:22,119 --> 00:36:24,559
a while they do throw some credits my way.

644
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,119
Speaker 3: So I love you as.

645
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:28,639
Speaker 2: And if you stick around at the end of the episode,

646
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,320
I actually have something to say about a WS credits.

647
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 3: So you have a coupon to send me. I love coupons.

648
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 2: Well, Jillian, unfortunately you're going to be excluded from this.

649
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,760
I wonder why a host of this podcast is going

650
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,280
to be excluded from a giveaway we're having.

651
00:36:47,679 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 3: Oh okay, that's.

652
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,119
Speaker 5: Damn it.

653
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 1: Fine. So one of the things I want to dig into,

654
00:36:56,119 --> 00:37:03,000
like I see the benefits of US, where I struggle

655
00:37:03,039 --> 00:37:07,719
with implementation. No, you know, like the developers I support,

656
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,559
they see the benefits of this, but only after I

657
00:37:11,679 --> 00:37:14,800
build the whole thing for them and show it to them.

658
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:20,199
So what are some ideas you have to like get

659
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:25,159
them excited to kind of like throw a few hours

660
00:37:25,199 --> 00:37:27,719
of their own time towards getting this implemented.

661
00:37:30,039 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 5: I think I think one way to be effective with

662
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:37,199
this is making developers responsible for their code and prod

663
00:37:37,559 --> 00:37:40,320
like right after, right after it's deployed.

664
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:43,679
Speaker 2: Align the ascentives.

665
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,599
Speaker 1: Nothing tells a story like staring at a screen at

666
00:37:46,599 --> 00:37:49,159
two am, knowing other reason you're there.

667
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:57,199
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly exactly. I think another thing on exactly right

668
00:38:00,079 --> 00:38:01,800
other thing I was going to say, you know, back

669
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,920
to what I was saying in the beginning about qa's

670
00:38:05,679 --> 00:38:09,800
using that telemetry also during the testing phase to be

671
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:17,920
able to identify bugs in testing making basically making telemetry

672
00:38:18,079 --> 00:38:24,840
quality gait. So before going into QA, you it's a

673
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:30,000
it's basically mandatory to have instrumented your code. Otherwise you don't,

674
00:38:30,639 --> 00:38:34,800
you don't pass go. Basically that's another that's another way

675
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,320
to incentivize and and I think one way to think

676
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,719
about it, and I think this is where people have

677
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:42,719
have a bit of a hard time like wrapping their

678
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:43,559
brains around it.

679
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 3: Uh.

680
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,559
Speaker 5: I see instrumenting code as no different than like, you know,

681
00:38:48,599 --> 00:38:52,320
we're writing print statements all the time, we write log statements.

682
00:38:52,599 --> 00:38:57,000
So like you're already writing logs, So do it the

683
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:02,639
open telemetry way. You're already like that's part of your mindset.

684
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:06,840
So adding traces here and there isn't a terrible idea,

685
00:39:07,519 --> 00:39:10,199
especially if it can help you as well as a

686
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,840
developer debug your own code, and I think that's another

687
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,559
value add It's like, oh my god, I have more

688
00:39:16,559 --> 00:39:19,679
insight when I'm writing my code to understand why this

689
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,239
like weird era keeps happening like every fifty runs of

690
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:27,000
the program, Like wouldn't that be nice?

691
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,599
Speaker 2: I think you could put your perspective though, on the

692
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,159
controversial side, right, Like, I mean, maybe there are the

693
00:39:32,199 --> 00:39:34,719
engineers out there that they don't write any bugs, there's

694
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,000
no production, never goes down, there's no incidence whatever, and

695
00:39:38,039 --> 00:39:40,920
then and then you know, this isn't a value added activity.

696
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,119
So you know, if they're out there and they're thinking

697
00:39:43,119 --> 00:39:46,079
to themselves, all my code is absolutely perfect and I'm

698
00:39:46,079 --> 00:39:48,760
not accountable for it. I don't know if there can

699
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:49,679
be another argument.

700
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,679
Speaker 5: I know, well, what can you do to question perfection

701
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:54,159
like that?

702
00:39:55,559 --> 00:39:59,199
Speaker 2: You did say something interesting though, which is basically what

703
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,440
you're advocating for here, which is shift left on telemetry.

704
00:40:02,599 --> 00:40:06,079
And one of the complaints that I've heard from uh

705
00:40:06,199 --> 00:40:08,840
my collities across the industry have been, well, there's like

706
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:13,440
shift left testing and shift left telemetry and shift left security,

707
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,440
and now we're doing infrastructure as code instead of release

708
00:40:16,519 --> 00:40:19,840
engineering I mean at some point, like if everything is

709
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,920
shift left, there's there's nothing left, Like everything is now

710
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:24,159
on the right, right.

711
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:32,199
Speaker 5: Right. I mean, yeah, you're right, but like I guess

712
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,840
the way I'll look at it is, but if you're like,

713
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,159
if you don't shift left, then it's going to be

714
00:40:38,199 --> 00:40:39,960
so much more painful after.

715
00:40:40,199 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 2: Oh, for sure, there's no question.

716
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 5: And I don't I don't know. Maybe maybe it's me,

717
00:40:45,639 --> 00:40:48,519
like my personality. I like learning new tech. So it's

718
00:40:48,559 --> 00:40:51,599
like you got to learn you know, terror form, Yay,

719
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,039
that's awesome, you get to learn doctor, yay.

720
00:40:54,079 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 2: Cool.

721
00:40:56,039 --> 00:41:00,320
Speaker 5: I think I think honestly, for this to succeed, you

722
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,639
almost you have to come in with the right mindset,

723
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,719
and and there's no better way to do that than

724
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:10,000
with like fresh hung blood, right. The new folks coming

725
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,440
into the industry like that, that is the way. You

726
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,679
know that, that is the way that it works. But

727
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:17,719
for the older folks you're like, oh, I'm telling I

728
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:19,559
mean they I'll have to do all this extra crap.

729
00:41:19,679 --> 00:41:20,519
Oh damn it.

730
00:41:21,119 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 2: I like how you stopped after a terraform and doctor

731
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,599
and you didn't say, oh, we have to use Kubernetes.

732
00:41:25,679 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, like Kubernettes and I have a love hate relationship.

733
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: That was a given, like who doesn't love Kubernetes.

734
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 2: So I mean that's an interesting perspective that those that

735
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,039
are more experienced are likely I don't I want to

736
00:41:43,079 --> 00:41:45,079
say that they're you know, thinking the wrong direction or

737
00:41:45,159 --> 00:41:48,039
have the not the right mindset, but they're focused in

738
00:41:48,079 --> 00:41:50,400
the areas where they think it has the most value.

739
00:41:50,519 --> 00:41:53,159
Like maybe the experience helps tell them what they need

740
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:55,760
to do more effectively. And if you are looking at

741
00:41:56,079 --> 00:41:58,119
something and say, oh, well, I don't know how to

742
00:41:58,159 --> 00:41:59,760
test this effectively, and I don't know how to make

743
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,119
this is super secure, and I don't know where my

744
00:42:02,159 --> 00:42:04,440
bugs are going to be, then you do want to

745
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,360
take all of these steps, at least a little bit

746
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,320
in each one of these directions. And that isn't to

747
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:12,280
say you need to design the perfect platform, but having

748
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,079
the logs end up on an ephoremal like on hard

749
00:42:15,159 --> 00:42:18,639
disk of an ephemeral compute environment, like isn't going to

750
00:42:18,639 --> 00:42:20,880
help you when there's a problem in that thing crashes.

751
00:42:21,519 --> 00:42:25,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, very true, Very true. Yeah. I you know, I

752
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:32,800
think with this kind of shift left it like for

753
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,199
those of us who've been in the industry long enough,

754
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:39,039
I think embracing that is born out of one of

755
00:42:39,119 --> 00:42:43,320
two things, extreme trauma for your like oh my god,

756
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,639
I can't take this anymore, and and the other is

757
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,960
just like pure curiosity like ooh this looks really cool,

758
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,639
and like having an open mind. And I honestly, I

759
00:42:54,679 --> 00:42:58,360
think the most successful techies are the ones who are

760
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:02,480
open to change, open to like what what the new

761
00:43:02,519 --> 00:43:06,679
tooling brings. And maybe maybe it's like, oh, this thing

762
00:43:06,679 --> 00:43:08,679
doesn't do exactly what I wanted to do. And then

763
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:11,480
this was like where startups are born, right. I mean,

764
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,639
Krubernetes has got a whole ecosystem around it because of

765
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,400
I guess it does stuff, but like some stuff is

766
00:43:20,679 --> 00:43:24,960
kind of gnarly to do, so let's make things easier.

767
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,159
And I think that sort of thing drives innovation. At

768
00:43:29,199 --> 00:43:31,840
the end of the day, are you are.

769
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:33,599
Speaker 2: You happy where we're at, Like do you feel like

770
00:43:33,679 --> 00:43:35,800
that there's like just one more thing, like get the

771
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,679
observability done in CICD pipelines and then everything will be great?

772
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,599
Or do you see like there's a concrete objective next

773
00:43:43,599 --> 00:43:46,920
step to get to the you know, the pinnacle of

774
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,000
perfection and observability.

775
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,199
Speaker 5: Ooh, that's a great question. Actually it's a topic for

776
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,000
a talk that I'm giving next week. Out of observability,

777
00:43:56,039 --> 00:43:58,440
Dan like, leg it, what is it? All right, I'm

778
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,800
gonna plug it. So basically, the ideas, why does observability

779
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,440
have to exist within the traditional confines of tech? Why

780
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:11,000
don't we bring observability and open telemetry to things like

781
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,960
the recruitment process, Like you know, it's it's a yucky

782
00:44:15,039 --> 00:44:18,400
jobs market out there, and the recruiting process has always

783
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:22,840
been painful. You never know, you know, you send out

784
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:24,559
a resume, you don't know if you're going to get

785
00:44:24,559 --> 00:44:28,480
a response, and when you do it might be a while.

786
00:44:28,599 --> 00:44:30,840
And then when you finally get that interview, it's it

787
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,760
might be like a chunk of time between interviews. Wouldn't

788
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:38,639
it be nice if organizations put observability in their recruitment process,

789
00:44:38,639 --> 00:44:41,840
for example, so that they have an understanding of like

790
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,039
how long it takes in each stage of the interview process.

791
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,400
Wouldn't it be cool to have a distributed trace that

792
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:54,000
represents the end to end recruitment process. And we can

793
00:44:54,039 --> 00:44:57,599
take this to like several under several other industries, like

794
00:44:57,679 --> 00:45:03,039
even the healthcare industry. Look at hospital r waiting times.

795
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:08,400
Understanding you know what if what if you do open telemetry,

796
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:13,079
apply open telemetry and observe ability to uh to ers

797
00:45:13,119 --> 00:45:15,280
where you're like, okay, now you have an idea of,

798
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,639
like what the workflow is from from intake all the

799
00:45:17,679 --> 00:45:21,320
way to getting treatment. You have an idea of like

800
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,840
the types of cases that get seen faster versus the

801
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,480
ones that don't. You can have a better understanding. You

802
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:31,920
have better data on racial profiling. For example, wait times

803
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,480
the amount of time you know first to get seen,

804
00:45:35,559 --> 00:45:37,880
to get like imaging done, to get the results of

805
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,639
the imaging. So I feel like the sky is the limit,

806
00:45:41,079 --> 00:45:44,400
and I think it's I would say easier. I'm going

807
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:46,920
to say in air quotes and in larger organizations that

808
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:52,840
have access to to be like monetary access to to

809
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:56,360
be able to like you know, purchase a subscription from

810
00:45:56,400 --> 00:46:00,800
a SaaS vendor or or like run a homegrown solution

811
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,519
for observability. But I think I think it can open

812
00:46:04,599 --> 00:46:06,519
up some really cool possibilities around that.

813
00:46:07,199 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 2: See, I had a secret fear You're going to say,

814
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:09,960
government oversight.

815
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: Why would that be relevant at all?

816
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:21,639
Speaker 2: Yeah? So I know, but I think you touched on something. Yeah,

817
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,920
well okay, yeah, so we won't we won't go there,

818
00:46:25,119 --> 00:46:28,320
uh I do. I do want to touch on something.

819
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,519
I think you you added a nuance too, which is

820
00:46:31,559 --> 00:46:35,960
that the value that could be captured here is actually

821
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:39,679
directly related to the business and not arbitrary tech metrics

822
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,159
about your running service like how many two hundreds and

823
00:46:42,159 --> 00:46:43,880
three hundred do you have or how long it's running,

824
00:46:44,199 --> 00:46:47,320
but maybe the value to the actual customer and or

825
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,119
the pain they're suffering through the you know, user experience

826
00:46:50,119 --> 00:46:53,239
of your UI because you you automatically coded it using

827
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:58,480
one of these new vibe coding auto creation UIs, and

828
00:46:58,519 --> 00:47:02,280
so you know, yeah, I think it's a really good point,

829
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:04,480
and like this could be applied to to every industry,

830
00:47:04,519 --> 00:47:06,280
not just ones that are hard in tech. You know,

831
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:08,719
how are you collecting metrics today? How are you actually

832
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,639
evaluating these things? Don't you want data? And now I'm

833
00:47:12,679 --> 00:47:15,280
starting to wonder all of those smaller companies that are

834
00:47:15,519 --> 00:47:19,760
between zero and let's say two or five employees, you know,

835
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,559
what are they doing. I know that like maybe the

836
00:47:22,599 --> 00:47:25,360
last thirty years was all about digital transformation, and I

837
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,760
still know companies are hiring digital transformation consultants to make

838
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,480
this happen. And I think you've hit on like, really

839
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:34,880
the why which is you're missing the data? You're like,

840
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:38,199
you're not collecting it, and this, this process, this standard

841
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:39,960
is what's going to help you achieve that.

842
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 5: Yeah? Yeah, and I mean unfortunately, like we speak in

843
00:47:43,559 --> 00:47:46,199
data right, like show me, show me the metrics, and

844
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:49,920
then tie the metrics to the money, right.

845
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,760
Speaker 1: Well, Jerry Maguire reference there, show me the money.

846
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,679
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I do.

847
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 2: I do want to share this because I I do

848
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:04,599
think this list is quite ridiculous. So you're a CNCF ambassador,

849
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:08,360
you have a podcast, you're an author, I wrote a

850
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,800
bunch of other things down here. But I see, like,

851
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:16,960
you know what conference speaker, right, what is there still

852
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,320
some milestone you're hoping to achieve next after this that

853
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,480
you're you know, currently focused on. You're like, no, I've

854
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,000
done enough things, you know, I feel accomplished enough.

855
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 5: Oh well, I would love to, like someday, keynote at

856
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,800
a cupe gun. I got my first keynote last year

857
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:37,679
at KCD in Potho, Portugal, and that was like, that

858
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,719
was super exciting. I've never been asked a keynote. I

859
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:44,920
think I think the ultimate experience would be a keynote

860
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,559
on a at a really large conference that would be

861
00:48:47,639 --> 00:48:51,880
super fun. I did also find out this one's up

862
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,000
there on the list. I found out last week that

863
00:48:54,079 --> 00:48:57,800
I'll be going to keep Con Japan, which is super

864
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:00,480
exciting because it's the first ever keep conjup and I've

865
00:49:00,519 --> 00:49:04,440
never been to Japan. And I'll be giving a talk

866
00:49:04,519 --> 00:49:11,239
on basically what we can do to make our observability greener.

867
00:49:12,039 --> 00:49:15,719
And it's, uh, it's it's a follow on, if you

868
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:17,360
will to a talk that I'm giving next week in

869
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,079
London with my same co speaker, Nancy Chohan, where we

870
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:24,280
it's the talk is next week is called how Green

871
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:26,719
is my Open Telemetry Collector? And it talks about like

872
00:49:27,119 --> 00:49:30,480
what you can do to start looking at at optimizing

873
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:32,880
your hotel collector to make it, you know, more more

874
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:33,960
environmentally friendly.

875
00:49:34,639 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 2: Do do you feel lucky now that there is another

876
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,840
piece of technology out there that is just so much

877
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,719
worse for the environment that no one's paying attention to

878
00:49:44,679 --> 00:49:47,239
any sort of problem with story extra data I mean

879
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:49,280
storing the data. I mean now that that's a trivial

880
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,039
matter as far as impact goes.

881
00:49:52,119 --> 00:49:56,679
Speaker 5: It's funny that, like, you know, I almost feel I

882
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:59,280
feel guilty, like working in this industry to be honest,

883
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:03,159
because like I've always, like since I was a kid,

884
00:50:03,199 --> 00:50:07,199
I was like really into like environmental stuff, and you know,

885
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:12,039
like I bring a reusable cup to like Starbucks, or

886
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:14,719
like I love bubble Tea, so my local bubble tea place,

887
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:18,360
I'll bring a reusable cup. And you know, I've done

888
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:21,400
the reasonable shopping bags for like twenty years, and yet

889
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:26,360
I'm in an industry that is inherently terrible for the environment.

890
00:50:27,039 --> 00:50:29,199
You know, data centers I think contribute to like one

891
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,039
or one to two percent of of like the world's

892
00:50:32,079 --> 00:50:36,320
greenhouse gas emissions. And then you add AI into the mix,

893
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,880
and it's like ouch observability, I mean the fact that

894
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:44,559
we're trying to understand our systems better through observability. Well,

895
00:50:44,599 --> 00:50:48,320
guess what, You're emitting a crap ton of data, So

896
00:50:48,559 --> 00:50:51,960
your systems are are expending more energy in doing so,

897
00:50:52,199 --> 00:50:56,280
and then your your observability tooling and ingesting the data

898
00:50:56,639 --> 00:51:01,519
are also emitting a crop ton of energy to do that.

899
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:07,320
So it's like we're you know, we're adding to the problem.

900
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,559
But then I also feel like technology can solve the problem,

901
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:14,800
Like you know, those same AI agents that that do

902
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,880
expend a lot of energy can also helpless further optimize

903
00:51:19,599 --> 00:51:24,199
our you know, our energy usage to lessen our carbon footprint.

904
00:51:24,199 --> 00:51:26,760
I think it's all that will be a balance.

905
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 2: Well, there's the paradox there, and I don't remember the

906
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:36,079
philosopher's name. Hopefully someone else does. If you increase the

907
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:39,840
efficiency or you optimize it, you end up with more

908
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:43,960
usage because it becomes cheaper and more so in the end.

909
00:51:44,039 --> 00:51:48,400
So that's not Unfortunately, that's not a path forward that

910
00:51:48,559 --> 00:51:50,599
I'm willing to I'm willing to bet on. But like

911
00:51:50,639 --> 00:51:54,719
I'm still bringing reusable like paper bags to the grocery

912
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,480
store for my bread and vegetables, like I am, I

913
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,880
am just as bad, uh know, put it in a

914
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:03,599
backpack and no plastic bags or anything. And I've still

915
00:52:03,639 --> 00:52:05,440
got the same paper bag that my wife is like,

916
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,639
why are you still reusing that? Carry stuff in?

917
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:11,880
Speaker 1: I always forget mine. So I ended up making it

918
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,079
a trip out of the store with thirty seven things

919
00:52:14,079 --> 00:52:14,880
in my arms.

920
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, backpack.

921
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:19,280
Speaker 5: I used to buy the bag.

922
00:52:19,599 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 3: It's ridiculous. At this point, I have like a closet

923
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:22,480
full of them.

924
00:52:22,599 --> 00:52:27,280
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, just with you should donate them to

925
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:30,320
some other people, like just or sell them right outside

926
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:32,639
the store. Like just see like when Will comes out

927
00:52:32,639 --> 00:52:33,679
of the store and he's carrying a.

928
00:52:33,679 --> 00:52:36,079
Speaker 5: Lot of things, be like, hey, ooh, clever.

929
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's legal not for resale?

930
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:46,039
Speaker 5: Yeah, probably not, damn it.

931
00:52:46,559 --> 00:52:47,280
Speaker 2: I think you just have.

932
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 1: To be fifty feet away from the door, and by

933
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:53,320
that time I'm a very motivated customer of your product. Anyway,

934
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,239
if you haven't, if you haven't gotten to your motive

935
00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:02,199
transportation after fifty feet, I mean, I I.

936
00:53:01,159 --> 00:53:04,760
Speaker 2: Worry what's going on there? I will ask maybe you

937
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:06,800
can spoil it a little bit for us? What as

938
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,880
you mentioned data centers as not being that environmentally friendly?

939
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,559
Is it? Is it the data storage? Is it? The compute?

940
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:15,239
Is it you know, memory usage?

941
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:15,440
Speaker 1: Is it?

942
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 2: The menu? The hardware manufacturing that's doing it? So the

943
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,159
building new data center, like do you know like which

944
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:25,119
area is contributing or is the most problematic for us?

945
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 5: I don't know specifically, but I would gather like the

946
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:33,079
power consumption alone of data centers is huge and puts

947
00:53:33,119 --> 00:53:36,800
like a massive strain on on power grids. So there's

948
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:41,280
definitely I would say, I would guess. Now, don't don't

949
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:43,320
quote me on that, but I would guess that that's

950
00:53:43,519 --> 00:53:45,599
that would definitely eat into things a.

951
00:53:45,639 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 1: Fair bit from some of the stuff I've heard. It's

952
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,039
the cooling mhm.

953
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:54,159
Speaker 2: I could I could believe that. Yeah, dealing with extra

954
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:57,400
heat is a huge challenge. But if it's the energy,

955
00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:59,519
then what we have to make sure realistically, is it

956
00:53:59,559 --> 00:54:01,360
the energy we're creating is green?

957
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 1: Just build more nuclear power plants always the solution it is.

958
00:54:09,199 --> 00:54:10,920
I can tell Warren Lust to disagree.

959
00:54:11,119 --> 00:54:14,360
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, no, I no, no, I absolutely

960
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:18,119
agree there is no better form of energy, even though

961
00:54:18,159 --> 00:54:21,000
there's all these problems with I say nuclear, but you

962
00:54:21,039 --> 00:54:23,599
know we're saying fission right because we're not at the

963
00:54:23,599 --> 00:54:27,119
fusion stage yet. And there's just a lot of arguments

964
00:54:27,159 --> 00:54:29,119
where like what do you do with the wastewater? I'm like,

965
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:33,280
compare that to the mining of the raw materials and

966
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:36,559
the manufacturing of solar panels, or the actual damage to

967
00:54:37,599 --> 00:54:41,880
like my migratory birds for flight pass for wind turbines,

968
00:54:42,599 --> 00:54:45,800
and not to mention the non renewable ones, like you know,

969
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:49,480
it's just so absurd to me. Sorry, that's that's my

970
00:54:49,519 --> 00:54:55,920
own personal rant. Just cancel, just cancel all non commercial aircraft.

971
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:57,679
There should be no private jets. You know that will

972
00:54:57,679 --> 00:54:59,880
solve a majority of the world's problems from there.

973
00:55:00,079 --> 00:55:08,639
Speaker 1: True, I can't disagree. It's not going to impact my life.

974
00:55:08,679 --> 00:55:09,760
I'll tell you that for sure.

975
00:55:13,039 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 5: Damn it, I'm gonna cancel my Gulf Stream.

976
00:55:15,159 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 4: Order right.

977
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:19,360
Speaker 1: Hold on b RB.

978
00:55:20,599 --> 00:55:20,800
Speaker 5: Yeah.

979
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:27,079
Speaker 1: But now that's like a few minutes ago, you brought

980
00:55:27,119 --> 00:55:30,800
up a really interesting point about using hotel metrics in

981
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,360
other parts of the business, and like immediately my mind

982
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:38,239
exploded with like ten different things in the company I

983
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:43,599
work for right now, I'm like, holy shit, Like they

984
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:47,199
they totally need to see this on a on a

985
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:51,079
metrics dashboard. And it's like, you know, you mentioned recruiting process,

986
00:55:51,119 --> 00:55:56,199
but I'm thinking like the sales pipeline or the implementation

987
00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:02,880
pipeline whenever we implement someone onto our product, the employee

988
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:06,159
review process, what stage that's at, Like there's just so

989
00:56:06,199 --> 00:56:10,519
many different things where like oh wow, even Jira, like

990
00:56:11,519 --> 00:56:18,599
where are things stalling at moving tickets from from new

991
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:20,599
to done?

992
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah exactly, or like onboarding new employees. It's such

993
00:56:26,199 --> 00:56:28,920
like such a pain no matter where you go, there

994
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:33,159
is not a streamlined onboarding process right.

995
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:35,880
Speaker 1: Time to first commit. That's a big metric for me,

996
00:56:36,079 --> 00:56:38,880
when I bring somebody on, like how long before their

997
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:41,840
first commit goes to production? How are you measuring that

998
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:44,360
manually at this point?

999
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:48,360
Speaker 2: Is it? Because there's just not a scale that you

1000
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:51,280
would need to make it like you're not hiring that

1001
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,800
many people like your turn rates you know low, and

1002
00:56:54,679 --> 00:56:57,000
so you know, I guess that maybe the counter argument,

1003
00:56:57,559 --> 00:57:01,679
why collect the data when the manual process is still sufficient?

1004
00:57:02,559 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 1: Yeah? For that for that specific example, time to first commit,

1005
00:57:06,559 --> 00:57:10,280
you know, it would be hard to justify automating it

1006
00:57:11,079 --> 00:57:13,639
unless you already had everything in place and it was

1007
00:57:13,679 --> 00:57:18,119
just building the dashboard that shows it. So that one

1008
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:21,960
hopefully it's a little value. Like if you're putting on

1009
00:57:22,039 --> 00:57:26,000
that many new employees where you have to build a

1010
00:57:26,079 --> 00:57:29,280
dashboard for that, maybe you should be looking at metrics

1011
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:32,119
of like what am I doing to piss my employees

1012
00:57:32,159 --> 00:57:34,639
off and make them leave? Maybe that's a better metric

1013
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:35,840
for that scenario.

1014
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I think you're onto something there, because if

1015
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:40,440
you're if you're pushing the data towards to them and

1016
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:43,199
they have to now consume technical dashboards. I think what

1017
00:57:43,199 --> 00:57:46,800
we're saying is we're hoping that by doing this, we're

1018
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:50,920
changing the role from directly hands on to someone that's

1019
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:54,400
more understanding of what like of a knowledge management process

1020
00:57:54,559 --> 00:57:57,079
is in that area. So you know you're talking about HR,

1021
00:57:57,159 --> 00:58:00,320
but not so it's not HR anymore. It's a new

1022
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:03,280
kind of human resources where it's already being managed. Now

1023
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:06,079
it's about improving the process and that's a whole other

1024
00:58:06,119 --> 00:58:06,840
step above it.

1025
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:12,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't have hright now, we have people business partners.

1026
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:18,079
Speaker 2: M Well yeah, you laugh. But I do think that

1027
00:58:18,119 --> 00:58:20,559
there is something like all labels are wrong, some of

1028
00:58:20,559 --> 00:58:22,840
them are useful. And I think if you call it people,

1029
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:26,079
they are more two things happen. They do think about

1030
00:58:26,119 --> 00:58:29,360
their leaders, like how to build leaders and whatnot, and

1031
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,639
then more importantly about the careers of these people rather

1032
00:58:32,719 --> 00:58:36,559
than as you know, fundamental resources like your turn rate

1033
00:58:36,679 --> 00:58:39,599
is important and whatnot. And I think that's that's something

1034
00:58:39,639 --> 00:58:40,760
that's only happened recently.

1035
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 4: See, I don't know about calling HR people. I mean,

1036
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:47,920
clearly they're people, right, but like they're not.

1037
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:55,639
Speaker 3: They're not robots yet, Like they're not there for the employees.

1038
00:58:55,639 --> 00:58:58,480
They're there to protect like the company.

1039
00:58:58,679 --> 00:59:00,920
Speaker 4: So this idea that they're sure for you in your

1040
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:04,000
career is maybe.

1041
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:05,239
Speaker 3: We don't Maybe I'm going to disagree with that.

1042
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:08,719
Speaker 2: Well, that's the point. So if this organization is there

1043
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:11,360
to protect the company, then why of course the company

1044
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:14,239
would want to be making decisions based off of a

1045
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:17,440
metrics and a framework that is collecting actual data about

1046
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:21,039
the organization before making those decisions. And there was something

1047
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:23,360
there was a research study done like ten or twenty

1048
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:26,880
years ago that was a consult came in and had asked,

1049
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:30,480
like all the executives of an organization to make a

1050
00:59:30,519 --> 00:59:32,920
guess about how successful their sales will be over the

1051
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:36,039
next couple of quarters. And they were all like, of course,

1052
00:59:36,079 --> 00:59:39,119
super confident about whatever it is that they were doing,

1053
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:41,760
and just absolutely wrong in a lot of ways. And

1054
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:43,280
I think you see the same thing over and over

1055
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:46,039
again across the field. So like a majority of people

1056
00:59:46,199 --> 00:59:50,119
think they're better than average, which is statistically not possible.

1057
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:52,960
And I think this is where, you know, having the

1058
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:56,760
additional data just goes to show you that you're making

1059
00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:01,760
more accurate decisions no matter what they are. True story,

1060
01:00:05,199 --> 01:00:07,440
Will just can't wait to get back to to or

1061
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:09,480
get to work so he can start implementing these in

1062
01:00:09,519 --> 01:00:10,760
his least favorite department.

1063
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:13,159
Speaker 1: I am Hotel.

1064
01:00:13,239 --> 01:00:16,079
Speaker 5: Everything that's right Hotel everything.

1065
01:00:16,719 --> 01:00:19,239
Speaker 1: So, speaking of which, how did you end up as

1066
01:00:20,639 --> 01:00:23,039
part of the Hotel sid group?

1067
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:29,199
Speaker 5: Oh? Well, so, first of all, I got into Hotel

1068
01:00:29,519 --> 01:00:35,360
because of my previous job at Lightstep, which was my

1069
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:38,000
first job as a developer advocate. So before that, I'd

1070
01:00:38,039 --> 01:00:41,000
been doing a mix of like individual contributor work and

1071
01:00:41,039 --> 01:00:45,280
management work. I decided at that point at my previous

1072
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:50,519
job that I'm done with management. Thanks, but no thanks,

1073
01:00:50,639 --> 01:00:55,599
had had a good run, but we dine and But

1074
01:00:57,039 --> 01:01:00,239
so the job before light Step, when I was a manager, right,

1075
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:03,760
i'd been I was managing two teams thirteen people total,

1076
01:01:04,679 --> 01:01:08,559
and I was managing a platform engineering team and an

1077
01:01:08,599 --> 01:01:13,119
observability team. Platform engineering team was a Hashi Corp stack

1078
01:01:13,199 --> 01:01:15,960
and I knew Kubernetes and they were using Nomad. So

1079
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:18,360
it was like, great, now I have to learn a

1080
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:21,480
thing that I don't know, which my brain was like yay,

1081
01:01:21,599 --> 01:01:27,079
fun stuff. And also this observability team, which I was

1082
01:01:27,119 --> 01:01:31,840
new to observability. I've been dabbling. Like my understanding of

1083
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:39,239
observability came from like reading Charity Majors tweets, and you know,

1084
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:42,519
my thought was, well, I have to do right by

1085
01:01:42,519 --> 01:01:45,440
my team, by my organization and if I'm going to

1086
01:01:45,519 --> 01:01:48,400
lead an observability team at the organization, and we were

1087
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:53,639
an observability practices team, So defining the observability strategy at

1088
01:01:53,639 --> 01:01:56,280
the company two cows, which is that two Cows if

1089
01:01:56,280 --> 01:02:00,719
you remember the yeah, yes, yes, but not doing that.

1090
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:03,440
It was not the download of free Windows software anymore.

1091
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:10,400
They're a domain wholesaler when I joined, and so as

1092
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:12,880
part of it, I'm like at the time, I already

1093
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:16,760
had like this blog on Medium where I've been using

1094
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:19,760
the blog to like basically learn in public, right document

1095
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:22,599
document cool things that I've discovered and share them with

1096
01:02:22,679 --> 01:02:26,039
the world, because my personal pet peeve is a lot

1097
01:02:26,079 --> 01:02:29,840
of stuff is documented very poorly in tech. People assume

1098
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:33,440
that you know what they're talking about, and it makes

1099
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:35,840
me think of those math textbooks where they're like, we'll

1100
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:40,480
leave the proof to the reader, and it's like, no,

1101
01:02:40,679 --> 01:02:42,599
show me how the proof works, because I have no

1102
01:02:42,679 --> 01:02:45,079
freaking clue. This is you know how I feel with

1103
01:02:45,159 --> 01:02:48,960
regards to most technical blogs, so you know mine are

1104
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:53,719
in excruciating detail. So I basically thought, well, I'm gonna

1105
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:56,199
I'm going to learn nomad in public. I'm going to

1106
01:02:56,280 --> 01:03:00,159
learn observability in public. Blog blog blog as I'm as

1107
01:03:00,159 --> 01:03:02,000
I'm doing my job, and then one of my blog

1108
01:03:02,079 --> 01:03:05,960
posts got the attention of my former manager at Lightstep

1109
01:03:06,559 --> 01:03:08,880
and they reached out to me and said, hey, how

1110
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:10,679
would you like to do this for a living? I'm like,

1111
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:15,400
what you could do this for a living? And when

1112
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:18,880
I started on the job, they said, you know, it

1113
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:21,880
would be cool to like contribute to open telemetry. And

1114
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:25,559
I had been in like, you know, super enterprise corporate

1115
01:03:25,599 --> 01:03:29,119
life pretty much up until that point, where like closed

1116
01:03:29,119 --> 01:03:32,320
source all the things, like the most open source stuff

1117
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:36,079
we did was like Java and Maven and everything else

1118
01:03:36,199 --> 01:03:40,079
was like there better be, like, you know, a support

1119
01:03:40,119 --> 01:03:42,840
plan for this open source software, otherwise we're not going

1120
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,480
to buy it, which otherwise we're not going to use it,

1121
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:48,800
which I understand, like large enterprise, they got to cover

1122
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:51,159
their asses. But so that was my first forayan to

1123
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:55,360
open source. So I first started just contributing to the

1124
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,400
hotel docs and then there was an opening in the

1125
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:01,800
Hotel End User SIG and the end Users SIG basically

1126
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:05,039
connects end users with each other with an open telemetry,

1127
01:04:05,039 --> 01:04:07,599
but we also relay feedback from the end users to

1128
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:13,000
the open tele telemetry maintainers. So there was there was

1129
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:16,719
a gap in leadership because one of the one of

1130
01:04:16,719 --> 01:04:20,119
the original founders of the SIG had changed jobs moved

1131
01:04:20,119 --> 01:04:23,639
away from Open Telemetry. So, you know, my my manager

1132
01:04:24,239 --> 01:04:26,719
at the time, asked if I wanted to step in

1133
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:30,119
and help out, and that's that's how I got involved.

1134
01:04:30,119 --> 01:04:31,920
And at the time it was a working group and

1135
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:36,199
then it was converted into into a SIG, And we've

1136
01:04:36,599 --> 01:04:40,760
done a bunch of things to like just really elevate

1137
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:44,760
elevate the hotel community as part of the SIG. So

1138
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:47,440
we do a bunch of regular things, like we have

1139
01:04:47,519 --> 01:04:51,679
this series called Hotel Me where we interview one of

1140
01:04:51,679 --> 01:04:54,280
our end users and they share how they use open

1141
01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:57,760
Telemetry in their own organizations. We have Hotel and Practice,

1142
01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:02,639
which is basically it's a meetup style thing where you know,

1143
01:05:02,719 --> 01:05:06,119
you have a cool presentation on something hotel, like, come

1144
01:05:06,199 --> 01:05:09,559
on and and and present to us, like you know,

1145
01:05:09,639 --> 01:05:11,280
you want to test out a talk that you want

1146
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:13,920
to give, like, use us as your guinea pig, and

1147
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:15,920
we do them as live streams and then the recordings

1148
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:19,480
are available afterwards for folks to consume on the on

1149
01:05:19,519 --> 01:05:23,760
the Hotel YouTube channel we've run. We've partnered with the

1150
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:28,079
other SIGs to run end user surveys to and understand like,

1151
01:05:28,159 --> 01:05:30,599
for example, the first one we did was on the

1152
01:05:30,599 --> 01:05:34,079
Hotel Collector. The collector folks wanted to partner with us

1153
01:05:34,079 --> 01:05:38,760
to understand how how end users use the collector to

1154
01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:43,559
help inform the direction of the collector, like what what

1155
01:05:43,639 --> 01:05:46,000
features are most important to the user so that they

1156
01:05:46,039 --> 01:05:49,079
can you know, push forward with those as part of

1157
01:05:49,119 --> 01:05:53,880
the Collector's roadmap. So that's effectively how I got involved

1158
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:55,599
with Hotel. So most of my work is in the

1159
01:05:55,639 --> 01:06:00,079
sig I do. I'll pop in every so often and

1160
01:06:00,159 --> 01:06:03,400
update docs and read mes, especially like when I'm doing

1161
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:07,159
research for my my technical talks and I'm digging into

1162
01:06:07,159 --> 01:06:09,639
a topic and I'll notice, oh there's a gap here.

1163
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:12,599
I do two things. One is like I'll write a

1164
01:06:12,639 --> 01:06:15,480
blog post on it because I love to do that.

1165
01:06:16,199 --> 01:06:17,800
But then the other thing is like I want to

1166
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:21,599
be a good open source citizen and also like I

1167
01:06:21,679 --> 01:06:24,119
want the docs, i e. The source of truth to

1168
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:27,519
have the information that I also make available in my

1169
01:06:27,599 --> 01:06:31,000
blog so so that you know, we have that completeness.

1170
01:06:31,039 --> 01:06:33,440
And I encourage everyone in open source to do that

1171
01:06:33,519 --> 01:06:36,639
as well. You know, like so many vendors have wonderful

1172
01:06:36,639 --> 01:06:40,599
blog posts out there on observability, like on on Open Telemeture,

1173
01:06:40,599 --> 01:06:42,480
and I think it's great. But if you're noticing a

1174
01:06:42,519 --> 01:06:45,880
gap in the docks, like take take the time to

1175
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:49,719
to update update those docks, update those read mes, because

1176
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:51,639
it'll just save a lot of people a lot of

1177
01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:54,719
a lot of effort. Because the docs are the place

1178
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:58,400
I think where most people start start their journey, and

1179
01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:00,639
then they'll you know, move to the blogs and the

1180
01:07:00,719 --> 01:07:03,920
YouTube videos and whatnot for added information.

1181
01:07:04,239 --> 01:07:09,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And it's like writing docks is really hard,

1182
01:07:09,719 --> 01:07:13,840
so there's there's always room for improvement, and especially for

1183
01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:17,639
people who are just starting their career, like that's such

1184
01:07:17,679 --> 01:07:23,719
a great way to just start getting getting some experience,

1185
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:27,119
you know, because you read the docs, you try it,

1186
01:07:27,119 --> 01:07:31,159
it doesn't work, you go off, you cuss and rant

1187
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:33,039
for a while, and then you come back and then

1188
01:07:33,079 --> 01:07:35,079
you try it again, and eventually it kind of like

1189
01:07:35,199 --> 01:07:39,400
clicks and like making that poor request back to the

1190
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:42,480
docks is a great way to start building a portfolio

1191
01:07:42,639 --> 01:07:46,599
of expertise that will ultimately help you move on to

1192
01:07:46,679 --> 01:07:50,400
bigger and higher paying roles big time.

1193
01:07:50,480 --> 01:07:53,000
Speaker 4: I think writing is probably one of the best things

1194
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:55,119
you can do for your career or like whatever, whatever

1195
01:07:55,159 --> 01:07:57,440
the thing is that you do better with video or

1196
01:07:57,480 --> 01:07:59,960
audio or like whatever. Just but just start to get

1197
01:08:00,039 --> 01:08:01,599
your own voice and perspective out there.

1198
01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:04,320
Speaker 2: I don't think we should be discouraging people from entering

1199
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:06,320
the industry.

1200
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 3: I'm saying they have to write it.

1201
01:08:11,639 --> 01:08:13,800
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know about other people, but I

1202
01:08:13,840 --> 01:08:17,760
became an engineer because I wanted to just solve equations

1203
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:20,800
all the time. That that was my goal. And now

1204
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:24,039
I don't do anything with numbers or math in any way,

1205
01:08:24,279 --> 01:08:27,119
and I spend it all the time going to conferences

1206
01:08:27,319 --> 01:08:31,520
at writing writing books like Adriana. Yeah that's my life.

1207
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:35,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, communication is such a key part of being

1208
01:08:35,239 --> 01:08:40,640
a good engineer, and I think it's it's underplayed a lot.

1209
01:08:40,439 --> 01:08:42,600
But when it comes to writing, I know a lot

1210
01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:48,840
of people with engineering oriented minds either aren't good writers

1211
01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:52,960
or don't consider themselves good writers. And lately I've been

1212
01:08:53,159 --> 01:08:57,119
using AI so I'll write something up and then copy

1213
01:08:57,119 --> 01:09:00,359
paste it into AI and just have it just give

1214
01:09:00,399 --> 01:09:02,319
me some feedback on it. And I found that to

1215
01:09:02,399 --> 01:09:03,239
be really helpful.

1216
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:05,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think I think it's a good starting point.

1217
01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:11,079
My caution on that personally is I find AI. You know,

1218
01:09:11,119 --> 01:09:15,159
it's like you use with hair, use with care. AI

1219
01:09:15,319 --> 01:09:20,479
can take away your own like personal writing voice. So

1220
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:24,079
that that's just my my personal take on it.

1221
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:25,239
Speaker 1: True story.

1222
01:09:26,079 --> 01:09:27,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think you can have the AI just

1223
01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:29,680
like straight up right stuff for you or it is

1224
01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:33,079
like very bland, like very very very bland. But I

1225
01:09:33,079 --> 01:09:36,319
think you can use something like most of the grammar

1226
01:09:36,399 --> 01:09:37,960
check tools all incorporate AI.

1227
01:09:38,039 --> 01:09:39,840
Speaker 3: Now, So if you're using like Grammarly or pro.

1228
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:42,960
Speaker 4: Writing Aid or something and you're worried about punctuation or spelling,

1229
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:44,439
that that would be me.

1230
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:46,960
Speaker 3: That would be me worried about the punctuation and the spelling.

1231
01:09:47,039 --> 01:09:48,960
Speaker 4: It's not like listen, it's just not going to happen

1232
01:09:49,119 --> 01:09:52,479
if there's not some type of tool out there, or

1233
01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:54,880
unless I hired an editor, which like I'm not going

1234
01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:55,920
to do for a blog.

1235
01:09:55,720 --> 01:09:57,760
Speaker 3: Post, like nobody's going to do that. But I do

1236
01:09:57,840 --> 01:10:00,000
think these you know, these tools do catch quite a bit.

1237
01:10:00,159 --> 01:10:04,800
Speaker 5: But I agree, and you know, like I'll whenever I'm questioning,

1238
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:08,039
you know, the grammar on something, I'll throw that into

1239
01:10:08,039 --> 01:10:12,439
AI too, you know, to verify either I'm heinously wrong

1240
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:16,520
or like hey, I got it right, Yay.

1241
01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:18,760
Speaker 2: Do you have a tool of choice for your work?

1242
01:10:20,319 --> 01:10:25,399
Speaker 5: For me, I'll use a Microsoft co Pilot every so often.

1243
01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:29,079
So like for my talks, for example, I have like

1244
01:10:29,319 --> 01:10:32,920
talk mascots so on. On my slides, I'll have like

1245
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:37,439
a theme a theme animal. So for example, for my

1246
01:10:38,239 --> 01:10:41,359
one of my talks next week, the the Green Collector Talk,

1247
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:44,920
we have a polar bear wearing a green recycling t

1248
01:10:45,039 --> 01:10:52,239
shirt throughout. So Copilot generates some some fun, some fun animations,

1249
01:10:52,399 --> 01:10:55,279
and you know, sometimes I'll ask it to like I

1250
01:10:55,279 --> 01:10:57,520
did ask it when I was researching a talk to

1251
01:10:57,640 --> 01:11:01,239
like write me some terraform code to do X, which

1252
01:11:01,279 --> 01:11:04,199
was helpful, but then it hallucinated and generated me a

1253
01:11:05,359 --> 01:11:08,079
actually it was in terraformos pullumi. It generated me a

1254
01:11:08,079 --> 01:11:10,840
Pulumi function that didn't exist, and that kind of pissed

1255
01:11:10,880 --> 01:11:13,720
me off for an hour. I'm like, where is this

1256
01:11:14,079 --> 01:11:18,760
bloody function? Did not exist? But yeah, yeah, that's that's

1257
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:21,560
that's that's the main one that I use. My dad

1258
01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:25,039
swears by perplexity. He says it's quite good. I've never

1259
01:11:25,079 --> 01:11:27,319
tried it, but he swears by it.

1260
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:30,680
Speaker 2: At least one of your parents using a modern tools.

1261
01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:33,600
Speaker 5: Oh my God. My dad is a retired software architect

1262
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:36,840
and he like learned Rust for fun two years ago.

1263
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:41,359
He's seventy two, and he's like, yes, I'm writing my

1264
01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:44,560
own rust crates to do like some performance testing on

1265
01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:47,640
some code that I wrote, and I'm using statistical analysis

1266
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:50,640
methods blah blah blah. I'm like, dude, I learned this

1267
01:11:50,680 --> 01:11:54,039
stuff in university and I don't remember a bit of it.

1268
01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:58,600
And he's like, you know, refreshing his knowledge on this stuff.

1269
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:00,479
I'm like, do you.

1270
01:12:02,399 --> 01:12:04,119
Speaker 1: Right on? Well, this feels like a good time to

1271
01:12:04,159 --> 01:12:05,520
move over to Picks. What do you think?

1272
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:07,319
Speaker 2: Yes, let's do it.

1273
01:12:07,439 --> 01:12:08,479
Speaker 1: Warren over to you.

1274
01:12:09,079 --> 01:12:10,880
Speaker 2: Well, I knew it was going to meet me first,

1275
01:12:11,239 --> 01:12:13,399
so I was actually surprised that you weren't just going

1276
01:12:13,439 --> 01:12:14,359
to immediately go to me.

1277
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:16,439
Speaker 1: So yeah, I tried to change it up, Like man,

1278
01:12:16,479 --> 01:12:17,640
I always pick on Warren.

1279
01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:22,119
Speaker 2: So well, it's okay. I'm always prepared, so it works out.

1280
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:27,760
So today I'm going to be super lame, but we're

1281
01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:29,760
going to have a survey that's going to be posted

1282
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:33,520
on a venture in DevOps dot com slash survey at

1283
01:12:34,119 --> 01:12:36,800
because I have them. I'm going to give away five

1284
01:12:38,199 --> 01:12:41,600
awards of aws credits based on the responses. I don't

1285
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:42,800
know how many of them out yet. We're going to

1286
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:45,039
see based on the responses, and I'm not sure where

1287
01:12:45,039 --> 01:12:47,000
the questions are yet, but the survey is going to

1288
01:12:47,039 --> 01:12:49,079
be there. I assure everyone.

1289
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:52,520
Speaker 1: Right on, that'll be cool. I'm looking forward to hearing

1290
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:55,600
from folks on that. And I mean, you get in

1291
01:12:55,680 --> 01:12:58,880
AWS credits for it, so it's going to be a

1292
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:01,119
little incentive to go into it.

1293
01:13:02,399 --> 01:13:06,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, right, who doesn't love cloud credits?

1294
01:13:06,319 --> 01:13:07,399
Speaker 2: Right for sure?

1295
01:13:08,560 --> 01:13:10,439
Speaker 1: Andriana should bring us a pick today.

1296
01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:15,960
Speaker 5: A thing that I really like. It's an activity. I'm

1297
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:22,239
a rock climber, so I love bouldering. I think you know,

1298
01:13:22,439 --> 01:13:25,800
if if if you have kids that like to scramble

1299
01:13:25,880 --> 01:13:30,079
up things, highly recommend taking your kids bouldering, and also

1300
01:13:30,159 --> 01:13:33,279
as an adult try it out. That is my pick

1301
01:13:33,319 --> 01:13:36,359
for you, and as a personal thing. Every every city

1302
01:13:36,359 --> 01:13:39,479
that I visit, you know when when, whether it's on

1303
01:13:39,600 --> 01:13:42,239
vacation or at a conference, I always make it a

1304
01:13:42,239 --> 01:13:46,119
point of checking out the local bouldering gym. Bouldering is

1305
01:13:46,119 --> 01:13:48,119
a little bit scary for those who aren't familiar with

1306
01:13:48,199 --> 01:13:51,920
rock climbing because there's like the rope climbing and then

1307
01:13:51,960 --> 01:13:55,800
there's bouldering, which is like your up I want to say,

1308
01:13:55,960 --> 01:14:01,479
like ten feet up, no rope, big fluffy mat at

1309
01:14:01,479 --> 01:14:06,000
the bottom. You can still get injured. I sprained my

1310
01:14:06,039 --> 01:14:11,359
ankle twice, the same ankle from just a bad fall.

1311
01:14:11,439 --> 01:14:14,760
But it is great fun, especially if you're looking to

1312
01:14:14,960 --> 01:14:19,199
just like step outside of you know, whatever it is

1313
01:14:19,199 --> 01:14:21,000
that you do is your your day job. It's a

1314
01:14:21,039 --> 01:14:25,079
great way to just decompress because you've got nothing better

1315
01:14:25,119 --> 01:14:27,720
to do. But you know, focus on getting to the

1316
01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:30,560
next move and going up the wall, and you can't

1317
01:14:31,159 --> 01:14:34,760
your your mind can't flinch, can't get distracted because otherwise

1318
01:14:34,800 --> 01:14:35,239
you fall.

1319
01:14:37,439 --> 01:14:41,920
Speaker 1: It's very therapeutic, Jillian, are you back with us?

1320
01:14:42,159 --> 01:14:47,119
Speaker 3: Okay, So I'm gonna pick the newest Expeditionary Force book.

1321
01:14:47,199 --> 01:14:49,039
It's a science fiction series.

1322
01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:51,479
Speaker 4: That's like, unlike most science fiction, it's kind of campy

1323
01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:54,279
and it kind of like goofy and silly and doesn't

1324
01:14:54,279 --> 01:14:56,359
have a lot of horror or gore or things that

1325
01:14:56,399 --> 01:14:58,720
I don't like reading, which is very hard to find

1326
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:00,840
in science fiction I found because a lot of them

1327
01:15:01,479 --> 01:15:04,199
have just stuff that I don't want to read about.

1328
01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:08,399
So that's an Expeditionary Force by Craig Allenson. It's probably

1329
01:15:08,399 --> 01:15:11,640
one of my favorite science fiction series right on.

1330
01:15:13,279 --> 01:15:17,640
Speaker 1: Cool. I'm going to go with two picks this week. One,

1331
01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:21,159
there's a guy, he's a kid, Let's be honest, he's

1332
01:15:21,159 --> 01:15:24,920
a kid. I think he's probably mid twenties. His name

1333
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:30,199
is Dan Coe, and he's really fascinating just his take

1334
01:15:30,359 --> 01:15:33,199
and like the amount of work and effort he's put

1335
01:15:33,279 --> 01:15:41,359
into studying like philosophy and like the meaning of life

1336
01:15:41,399 --> 01:15:44,560
and your your purpose, and you're calling like really extraordinary

1337
01:15:44,560 --> 01:15:47,039
stuff for someone who's so young. He just released a

1338
01:15:47,039 --> 01:15:51,880
new book yesterday called Purpose Profit two that he's giving

1339
01:15:51,880 --> 01:15:55,880
it away for free on his website, the danco dot

1340
01:15:55,920 --> 01:16:01,359
com d A. N. Koe and started reading it. But

1341
01:16:01,479 --> 01:16:04,279
he's written so much other great stuff following him on

1342
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:06,600
x His stuff there has been so cool. I'm just

1343
01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:09,560
gonna go right ahead and recommend his book before I've

1344
01:16:09,600 --> 01:16:12,560
even finished reading it. I just feel like the quality

1345
01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:16,640
is going to be there for anyone who's interested in

1346
01:16:16,680 --> 01:16:21,479
reading that. And then the second pick I have so

1347
01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:25,239
there's a really like humiliating story I'll go with first.

1348
01:16:25,319 --> 01:16:28,479
To set the stage for this, Like I spent my

1349
01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:34,439
youth going to a lot of heavy metal concerts and

1350
01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:38,479
playing guitar in heavy metal bands, and so it turns

1351
01:16:38,479 --> 01:16:42,199
out that because of all the headbanging involved, you can

1352
01:16:42,279 --> 01:16:45,319
actually get whiplash. And so I have like the long

1353
01:16:45,399 --> 01:16:52,880
term effects of whiplash from my taste in music, and

1354
01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:56,319
it's I've had lots of had some different problems with

1355
01:16:56,359 --> 01:16:58,920
it over the years. But recently I got this thing

1356
01:16:58,960 --> 01:17:02,560
called an iron neck to like strengthen my neck muscles.

1357
01:17:02,560 --> 01:17:05,399
And so that's my second pick. It's like this really

1358
01:17:05,439 --> 01:17:08,720
super cool looking head gadget that you put on your head.

1359
01:17:10,039 --> 01:17:12,119
Definitely want to you're the kid with the helmet, that's

1360
01:17:12,159 --> 01:17:16,800
what you write, right, Yeah, It's a total fashion statement,

1361
01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:19,760
absolute fashion statement. So if you're just looking to like

1362
01:17:20,319 --> 01:17:24,720
have you painted it? Like, if you want to like

1363
01:17:24,880 --> 01:17:28,640
either improve your neck muscles or just improve like your

1364
01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:31,720
social credibility in life, you want to go streatting around

1365
01:17:31,760 --> 01:17:36,039
town with the iron neck on. But yeah, right, we're.

1366
01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:40,399
Speaker 2: Gonna have to see this the whole next episode. I

1367
01:17:40,880 --> 01:17:43,520
think it's just gonna have to be a deal.

1368
01:17:43,560 --> 01:17:45,359
Speaker 5: Deal the next fashion statement.

1369
01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:48,439
Speaker 1: Right, So yeah, those are my two picks. Dan Coe's

1370
01:17:48,479 --> 01:17:51,439
new book at the danco dot com and iron Neck

1371
01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:53,520
and and like The reason I bring up the iron

1372
01:17:53,560 --> 01:17:56,319
neck is even if you don't have whiplash from spinning

1373
01:17:56,399 --> 01:17:59,760
your youth headbanging I'm sitting at a desk all day

1374
01:17:59,800 --> 01:18:04,800
long hunched over your keyboard also has negative impact on

1375
01:18:04,840 --> 01:18:07,399
your posture and your next strength. So this is a

1376
01:18:07,439 --> 01:18:10,880
way to help counteract that so that whenever you do

1377
01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:12,920
make it to old age, that you still have the

1378
01:18:12,960 --> 01:18:16,600
ability to you know, stand upright or even perhaps look

1379
01:18:16,600 --> 01:18:17,039
at sky.

1380
01:18:17,520 --> 01:18:19,439
Speaker 2: I think I'm gonna need to see some research on that,

1381
01:18:20,359 --> 01:18:23,560
all right, man, I don't know.

1382
01:18:23,600 --> 01:18:26,680
Speaker 4: I think it's a pretty bold claim to old age.

1383
01:18:26,880 --> 01:18:27,880
Speaker 1: I don't know about that.

1384
01:18:30,319 --> 01:18:32,760
Speaker 3: I want like a standing ovation from the universe if

1385
01:18:32,760 --> 01:18:34,520
I make it past sixty.

1386
01:18:36,640 --> 01:18:39,439
Speaker 5: So there's a podcast that I've been listening to called

1387
01:18:39,439 --> 01:18:43,840
Wiser than Me. It's with Seinfeld actress Julia Louis Dreyfus,

1388
01:18:44,079 --> 01:18:49,880
where she basically interviews all these like older ladies like

1389
01:18:51,279 --> 01:18:54,479
you know, high profile older ladies like Jane Fonda, Amy

1390
01:18:54,560 --> 01:18:58,560
Pan and it's been it was recommended to me by

1391
01:18:58,640 --> 01:19:02,079
actually one of my podcast guests. It is great fun

1392
01:19:02,920 --> 01:19:04,319
right on cool.

1393
01:19:04,399 --> 01:19:07,479
Speaker 1: And then there's your podcast as well, right, the Geeking

1394
01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:09,640
Out podcast that is correct.

1395
01:19:09,760 --> 01:19:13,439
Speaker 5: Yes, just look up geeking Out with Adriana Villela, because

1396
01:19:13,479 --> 01:19:16,279
otherwise if you just look up geeking out, it's gonna

1397
01:19:16,359 --> 01:19:19,479
like give you like so many different listings on on

1398
01:19:19,560 --> 01:19:23,600
the various podcasting apps. So geeking Out with Adriana Villela

1399
01:19:24,119 --> 01:19:26,199
do that search term. You should be able to find

1400
01:19:26,239 --> 01:19:28,840
the correct one. And there's a copy Vada on the

1401
01:19:29,960 --> 01:19:31,319
on on the cover art.

1402
01:19:31,479 --> 01:19:36,800
Speaker 1: So awesome. Adriana, thank you so much for being on

1403
01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:41,920
the show. This has been fun. Thanks for having me anytime,

1404
01:19:42,239 --> 01:19:45,560
come on back anytime that you want. Warren Chilean as always,

1405
01:19:45,600 --> 01:19:46,720
thank you both for being here.

1406
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:49,000
Speaker 3: Thank you was fun.

1407
01:19:50,520 --> 01:19:53,560
Speaker 1: And to all of our listeners, thank you for listening

1408
01:19:53,640 --> 01:19:57,039
to the show, and be sure and check out the

1409
01:19:57,199 --> 01:20:02,760
website for the survey to get your elf some AWS credits. Alright, cool,

1410
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:03,720
we'll see you guys next week.

1411
01:20:07,279 --> 01:20:07,920
Speaker 4: M hmm.