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Speaker 1: Actually, Jenny found a couple of interesting, uh music industry stories.

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But this is from Billboard dot com. This this just happened.

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And this also relates to a subject that we've discussed

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many times on the show. Kalan Kilanie slams AI artist

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Zania or Zania Monet. It's x A N I A.

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So I guess that's Zania Zannia Monet getting a three

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million dollar record deal. Uh, this is so beyond out

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of control, the musician told fans. Now, I don't know

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anything about this. This is the first time hearing about this.

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This is I didn't think there even was such a

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thing as a three million dollar record deal anymore.

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Speaker 2: I didn't.

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Speaker 1: I thought that was a thing of the past. But

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so I don't understand. Let's we'll go through this here again.

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This is from Billboard dot Com. A few days ago,

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Billboard broke the news that an AI generated artist, Zannia Monet,

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had signed a multimillion dollar record deal after meeting with

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multiple labels.

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Speaker 2: This sounds very we bought over this person. It sounds like, yeah,

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but not person. It's not a person.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, but even that, that's one thing

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about this is so strange. But The other thing that's

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so strange to me is a story about a new

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artist having multiple meetings with various labels to and this

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bidding war that that that sounds like something from thirty

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years ago. That doesn't sound like something that even happens

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in twenty twenty five. So that part's also strange to me.

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Everything about this is weird. Are we in an alternate universe?

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Speaker 2: An artist, I use that term loosely, who did all

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of their music with Sunio?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which is the app that we use? Suno, which

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is the app that we use?

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Speaker 2: Yeahah, sorry, I don't know why I said it, though

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I know.

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Speaker 1: Why because the other, the other big one is Udio.

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So I think in your mind you created an amalgam

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of Suno and Udio and created Sudio.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean maybe maybe someday they'll merge and that'll be

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the new name.

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Speaker 2: The creator is claiming the art the lyrics are theirs, Yeah,

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but they use Suno to make the music. Yeah, so

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the music is obviously not theirs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it says here. In a recent TikTok, the singer

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songwriter Kilani shared their thoughts on how Wold Media reportedly

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shelling out three million dollars to sign the fictive musician

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whose quote persona is operated behind the scenes by writer

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Talisha Nicki Jones, despite copyright concerns previously voiced by other

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major labels um So, a frustrated sounding Kilani told followers,

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without directly mentioning Monet or Jones, quote, there is an AI,

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R and B artist who just signed a multimillion dollar

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deal and the person is doing none of the work.

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This is so beyond out of control. Unquote.

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Speaker 2: It's wrong. It's wrong. It's wrong. It's wrong. They're using

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other people's music to create it. Suno uses everybody else's

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music to learn from. So if you're going there with

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your lyrics to quote make music, you're making music from

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other artists. Really, it's not coming out of your brain,

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but artistry comes out of your brain.

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Speaker 1: But I also don't understand the most but the most

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mind bending thing to me about this is again I

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don't know, like, why is somebody paying three million dollars

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for this?

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Speaker 2: Because apparently these songs are going up the jar?

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Speaker 1: But so what even even if they are, you don't

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pay In the year twenty twenty five, why would anyone

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pay three million dollars to anybody for anything.

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Speaker 2: Apparently this was a big deal. They had this big,

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giant zoom meeting with the executive and this is bizarre

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to close this deal with the person what was I

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I can't remember that person's name is who created zanium Moone,

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who is not a human being?

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Speaker 1: But what am I missing about? I mean, like, yeah,

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I mean, and I know the AI part is so shird,

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but I'm still stuck on the other part of this. Like, honestly,

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if you took this story and you took the AI

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part out of it, and you just told me there

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was this new artist named Zaniamone who had all these

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meetings and just got offered a three million dollar record deal,

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a brand new artists, brand new artist, I've never even

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heard of it. Even if you took the AI part

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completely out of the story, I would still be sitting

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here going what in the year twenty twenty five?

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Speaker 2: They're charting, That's why their chart.

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Speaker 1: But even that shouldn't matter what greed talks buck up

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like this.

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Speaker 2: They don't care. They can make a dollar, they'll do it.

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Speaker 1: But how are they gonna make money?

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Speaker 2: Like they're gonna make merch? Maybe?

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Speaker 1: I guess where do they make money?

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Speaker 2: These days. It's downloads aren't the way.

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Speaker 1: Nobody gets a three million dollar deal in twenty five.

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Speaker 2: So what is in the deal, though, Like, what exactly

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is in the deal? Obviously, this artist can't go perform anywhere.

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There's no concerts for fictictional character unless they make a hologram.

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Speaker 1: Well unless the author who created this character is going

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to do to do that.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if they were gonna do that when

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they do that themselves to begin with, I'm assuming that

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they can't perform the way that their fake version can

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co performed. I guess yeah, on a computer. It can't

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perform outside of a computer. You can't go to get

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tickets and go see them live unless it's a holograph.

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I don't think we Well we got those in Vegas,

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but they're not everywhere yet.

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Speaker 1: Well you can, though, I mean if if if if

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she can sing and she's you know, she can sing,

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if I just hire if you can hire a band

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to learn the songs, or you just play back in

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tracks or whatever.

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Speaker 2: I mean, But that's not what they're saying. But that's

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not what they didn't sign her. They signed the fictitional character. Yeah,

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so it's got to be like merch and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's like, that's a lot of money for.

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Speaker 2: I don't like that. I'm really I actually am kind

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of shocked by it all because I didn't think that

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the music industry will legitimize it in this way, and

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now that they have, I don't like it.

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Speaker 1: I don't like it.

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Speaker 2: I don't like it.

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Speaker 1: Assily with the vocalist, Kilanie went on emphasize the power

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of AI to create fully formed songs out of finish

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without users having to credit anyone involved in making the

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countless copyrighted works on which such generative music systems are

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trained to craft. Monet's music, Jones used Souno, which is

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the same app that we we full disclosure, we played

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with we we've played with it on the air, we

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did experiments, we we created tracks about me becoming victorious

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in my my long running feud with MC hammer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm not saying it's not fun to play with,

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but to reward it, to pay for it, to legitimize

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it in the music industry as a valid I don't know.

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I've also there to real flesh of blood humans.

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Speaker 1: I've also used it, full disclosure, I've used it to

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create theme music for a couple of podcasts, Uh, Tough

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Bumps and Uh. And I even made a song for

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the The AF the podcast only version of this show,

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although I'm not really I kind of changed my mind

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about the song I chose but that I created with Suno.

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But anyway, it doesn't matter. But okay, So to craft

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Mone's music, Jones used Suno, though her manager Rommel Murphy

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emphasized to Billboard that his client personally writes all the

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original lyrics that Monet quote unquote sings, but.

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Speaker 2: Not the music. And I argue that it's not without

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copyright infringement because every piece of music this thing used

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to create it, it learned from a human being. It

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didn't come out of thin air. It came out of

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a human mind that it stuck into a computer and

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spit this out right. So is that really not using

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somebody else's work, because I don't think it is. You're

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using everybody else's work to train it, and then it

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pulls from a thousand artists to make the song. Well,

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that's a thousand different artists' input that got into that song.

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It's not royalty free, y'all? Happy? Gee? Look at like

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I don't like the way the article comes across, it's like, oh,

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this is no that section you read about it being

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like royalty free and they can create that.

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Speaker 1: Just I don't like it, it says here.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: Billboard has reached out to Jones's rep for comment. Uh

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Kilani certainly isn't the only person in the industry with

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objections to Monet's deal. Sources previously told Billboard that several

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major labels had also been in talks with Jones, but

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ultimately walked away with respect to their collaborative copyright lawsuit

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against Suno last year. Yeah, there's a there's a lawsuit.

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The labels are suing Suno.

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Speaker 2: That's right, So why are somebody signing this person.

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Speaker 1: Well, the company signing them isn't involved in that lawsuit obviously.

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But but that's why I tell people too, because you know,

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we we use Suno. I use Suno for some stuff.

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If you are using these uh these these uh large

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learning models, like you know, enjoy it while you have it,

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because the sharks are circling just so you know. Okay,

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I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's gonna be I think that.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I don't think it's gonna go done. Yeah,

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oh I agree, But yeah, the basis of the lawsuit

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is that Sono allegedly infringed upon the copyright of the

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label's catalogs by using pre existing works to train its technology.

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The company disagrees with this characterization, arguing that its users

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are actually making entirely original works via fair use of

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the music in its database.

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Speaker 2: Okay, but that's saying the same thing in a different sentence.

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You just said this fair use is a very loosely

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used term in that sentence, I think, I think, well, that's.

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Speaker 1: But well, that's the argument that the company, the signed

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er is making now there and and so for people

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who don't know, so, fair use is when you're using

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someone else's material, but but but you're using it in

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a transformative way or educational way. So for example, if

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if you if you watch YouTube videos, you know, because

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people make reaction videos, especially you know in political YouTube.

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So for example, if you're commenting on something on somebody

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else's video, you're using someone else's content and you're playing

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it and you're commenting on it as you do it.

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We had even recently discussed doing that with someone, but

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we decided not to because we don't want someone making

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angry phone calls to certain people. But that type of

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thing where you're using somebody else's content but you're commenting

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on it as you play it on your own channel,

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that's an example of fair use. The reason podcasters on

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YouTube are able to do that kind of thing is

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because it's transformative. They're taking they're using someone else's content

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to create their own content from that as they comment

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on it. And that's why those podcasters are protected.

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Speaker 2: Huge difference because the material they're using, they're using it,

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it's still associated, it's still identified as the original. You're

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playing it, but it's the original. You know what's the

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person speaking? Is that person not them? They're not taking

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all of that and creating something. It's it's not that

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you know, this is literally this is like I read

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every VC Andrews book and then I write a VC

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Andrews book because I read all of her books and

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just gurgitated out her own style wording continued her story.

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Isn't that still her story? It's still her story. I'm

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I'm playing in her world. It's not like it's one

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thing together.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you took the characters and made exact basically, yeah,

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that would be then you'd be violating her intellectual property.

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Speaker 2: Well, how are you not violating a musician's intellectual property

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when you're stealing the notes off of a page instead

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of the words off of a page.

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Speaker 1: Now that just to play a devil's advocate, you know

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my counter argument, and you've heard me say this before,

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and by the way, at the end of the day,

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I will always argue on behalf of artists. Yeah, we

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got to talk about and protecting artists, and you know

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obviously where I come from. I think everyone understands that.

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But the the counter argument, and I do think it's

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a decent counter argument. So again I'm playing devil's advocate.

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But when we talk about these large learning models sucking

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up all this information and then and then being able

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to create from it, if I how is that different

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from necessarily the human brain. So if I sit down

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and I write a song, anybody wait let me, Well,

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let me just finish my thought. Though again I'm playing

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devil's advocate here, but let me just finish my thought.

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If I'm sitting down and I'm writing something, anything that

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I write is informed and influenced by all the music

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that I've previously heard in my lifetime up to that moment.

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So therefore, how is that different.

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Speaker 2: Because you are a human being using your mind, not

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a computer that can memorize everything verbatim everything at your stamp,

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every note, every everything, every dissonance and replicate that percisely.

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You are human. You cannot do that. You as a

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human can interpret what you hear, what you see, what

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you feel, and then reinterpret that into artistry. That's what

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artists do, right. You take a story, something that's pointed

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to you, You take a paint brush and you scart

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that around. That is you interpreting the world around you

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into that canvas, right, same thing a musician does, interpreting

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the world and putting it down on a sheet music.

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That's unique.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You taking all the knowledge that somebody gives you, go

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to college for ten years, you take all that knowledge

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to write something that's you, as a human being, creating

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something out of your own mind. It's not picture perfect

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pages in a computer that can literally just that's not creation.

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That's gluing stuff together just very quick in my mind's eye.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, just very quickly. I'm looking on YouTube. I

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just want to hear something from.

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Speaker 2: I Will Live.

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Speaker 1: I hear like what what could somebody possibly be paying?

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See I'm still suck on that part. Could somebody be

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paying three million dollars for? Okay?

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Speaker 3: So?

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Speaker 2: Uh, what's the going rate for artists these days?

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Speaker 1: So it's not that, let's see Okay, Okay, So I

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found the YouTube page Xanny moon A. All right, I'm

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just gonna play this first song that pops up. Looks

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like this is the newest single. It's called back when

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Love was Real?

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Speaker 2: All right?

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Speaker 1: This is the lyric video here. Let me it's probably

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an ad first, let me see. I'm just curious, like,

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what what could this be?

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Speaker 3: M I want that back in the day kind of

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back loving live stream. It was filled inside, no text,

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no mardnightest, just loyalty and a little bit of respect

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before everybody new yor.

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Speaker 4: Before who you with turns suspicious, before the GPS and

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the past words to simple just me you segment back

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it was real.

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Speaker 1: I almost feel like she's trolling all of us with

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those lyrics.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't sound any different from stuff you've created, you know,

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I don't think it does.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I don't get a few words in there,

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I don't. I don't get it like this this So.

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Speaker 2: Many people Okay, I'm not okay with this.

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Speaker 1: You know this is wrong.

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Speaker 2: It's a huge difference between human creation and computer creation. Wow. Yeah,

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humans don't have the ability to photo have a photographic

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memory of every single word note you know what I mean,

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every breath of the in a nation. Where's there's so

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much to what an artist does as a human.

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Speaker 1: Although that does well, that raises a question though, what

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if what if an artist has a photographic memory? Should

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they but you're not gonna should they not make me?

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That's different attraphic memories. That's you're a human. But you're

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a human.

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Speaker 2: You're still using everything that you've got to create something

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out of your own brain. It's not like a computer

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literally taking ones and zeros and realigning the ones and

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zeros and spitting it back at you, which is what

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I feel like it's doing. You're taking everybody else's music,

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is your ones and zeros, rearrange it, spit it back out.

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That's not what a human being does. A human being

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takes life, experience, thought, feeling, passion, emotion, all of that,

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everything they've learned, they've been around, musicians, whatever, and then

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create out of that.

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Speaker 1: Ye.

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Speaker 2: Big difference between rearranging it and creation.

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Speaker 1: Justin Michaels is in the chat room. You know, he's

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a very loyal listener and supporter of actually all the

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programming that we're involved in. And he says, so you

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can you can use AI and get signed. Now, wow, that's.

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Speaker 2: What I'm saying. Right, we just found this out.

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Speaker 1: And he said, Matt, look out for Skynett.

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Speaker 2: I think we've already gotten there at this point. Yeah,

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but it is it isn't right, it's not okay with me. Yeah,

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And you're never going to see this artist for in

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real life ever, they're not existent. You could see somebody

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pretending to be them, but you will never see them

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because they don't exist. They only exist in a computer