WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.200 --> 00:00:10.640 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 2 00:00:10.720 --> 00:00:13.759 Killers in True crime History and the authors that have 3 00:00:13.839 --> 00:00:21.120 written about him. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 4 00:00:21.160 --> 00:00:24.839 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:24.920 --> 00:00:29.120 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 6 00:00:29.160 --> 00:00:33.000 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 7 00:00:41.479 --> 00:00:42.079 Good Evening. 8 00:00:42.520 --> 00:00:45.960 On Christmas Night nineteen ninety six, six year old John 9 00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:49.719 Benet Ramsay was murdered in her family's home in Boulder, Colorado. 10 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:52.280 A ransom note was found in the home, but it 11 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:55.200 was hours before her father, John found her body in 12 00:00:55.240 --> 00:00:58.320 the basement. She'd been strangled with a garat and her 13 00:00:58.359 --> 00:01:02.320 skull was fractured. Media sensationalized the tragic death of the 14 00:01:02.399 --> 00:01:06.439 child beauty queen, and public speculation and rumors ran rampant. 15 00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:09.959 What followed was one of the most notorious unsolved murder 16 00:01:10.040 --> 00:01:15.560 investigations in American history. Boulder police fixated on John Binney's 17 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:20.680 parents as suspects. Needing investigative help, the Boulder DA brought 18 00:01:20.719 --> 00:01:24.680 in legendary homicide detective lou Smitt. However, he was soon 19 00:01:24.760 --> 00:01:28.319 disenchanted with law enforcement's obsession with the Ramsey family as 20 00:01:28.319 --> 00:01:33.439 the primary suspects, excluding other possibilities. Smitt resigned but continued 21 00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:36.040 to work on his own time and at his own expense, 22 00:01:36.359 --> 00:01:39.680 determined to find justice for John Benney. He determined the 23 00:01:39.719 --> 00:01:42.799 Ramsey family was not involved in her death, but died 24 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:47.079 in twenty ten before he could identify the killer. Thousands 25 00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:51.439 of people attended his funeral service, including John Ramsey and 26 00:01:51.519 --> 00:01:55.640 the detective's lifelong friend and colleague, John Anderson, along with 27 00:01:55.680 --> 00:02:00.200 a handful of retired detectives. Anderson and Smitt family continue 28 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:03.879 to pursue justice. Aiste on Smith's work now for the 29 00:02:03.920 --> 00:02:07.000 first time and Lou and John Beney Anderson tells the 30 00:02:07.040 --> 00:02:10.919 story of Smith's investigation and why the Smitt family team 31 00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:14.960 now believes that the killer can be identified. The book 32 00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:17.680 that we're featuring this evening is Lou and John Beney, 33 00:02:17.960 --> 00:02:21.599 A Legendaries Lawman's Quest to Solve a Beauty Queen's Murder, 34 00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:25.840 with my special guest author, John Wesley Anderson. Welcome to 35 00:02:25.919 --> 00:02:28.000 the program, and thank you so much for this interview. 36 00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:30.560 John Wesley Anderson. 37 00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:32.120 Thank you, Dan, it's a privilege to be with you. 38 00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:36.719 Thank you so much, and congratulations on this extraordinary book. 39 00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:39.879 Well, thank you. I accept that on behalf of the team. 40 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:43.400 There was quite a significant team over the last several 41 00:02:43.479 --> 00:02:46.879 years that have been involved in making sure this book 42 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:49.080 was out there and that the truth was known. 43 00:02:49.319 --> 00:02:53.879 You write about that what you wanted to do with 44 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:57.120 this book, what you intended, the three things that you 45 00:02:57.680 --> 00:03:00.719 hoped that this book would produce. Could you tell us 46 00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:01.680 about that briefly? 47 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:04.199 Yes, thank you. In the purpose of the book is 48 00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:06.599 to do three things. Is to get the truth out there. 49 00:03:06.599 --> 00:03:09.800 There's been a lot of misperceptions and untruths about the book, 50 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:13.360 so that's first thing. The second thing is to communicate 51 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:17.599 the belief that Loose Smith had that no member of 52 00:03:17.639 --> 00:03:20.560 the Ramsey family was involved in any way in the 53 00:03:20.599 --> 00:03:24.039 death of John Bennet, and that's been established I think 54 00:03:24.120 --> 00:03:26.680 in the book beyond any reasonable adapt But the third 55 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:30.439 thing is to encourage, particularly law enforcement, except the fact 56 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:34.000 that this case is still solvable. The DNA is good 57 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:38.280 enough that it can identify who the killer is, it 58 00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:40.879 can show who the killer is not, and it can 59 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:43.639 exclude people of interests that have been brought up in 60 00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:45.120 the case, such as the Ramsey family. 61 00:03:45.319 --> 00:03:48.719 Let's get right away to this fascinating story that you 62 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:55.000 have here, which includes your mentor Loui Smith. Andrew Lewis 63 00:03:55.199 --> 00:03:59.360 Louis Smith born nineteen thirty five in Denver, Colorado, enter 64 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:05.639 the Navy seventeen and married his sweetheart Barbara, four kids, Lori, Cindy, Mark, 65 00:04:05.680 --> 00:04:08.800 and down. I became a comp in nineteen ninety six, 66 00:04:09.080 --> 00:04:11.800 and he called you, Johnny. You were eighteen years old 67 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:15.560 working at the Identification Bureau in Colorado Springs Police Department. 68 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:19.240 This is nineteen seventy two. Tell us about Andrew Lewis 69 00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:22.079 lou Smidt, what you already knew about him, what was 70 00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:25.120 his already his background that you knew about, And tell 71 00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:29.560 us about the relationship that you gradually and eventually developed 72 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:30.319 with Loosemith. 73 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:33.959 Happy to do that. One minor correction, just a slip. 74 00:04:33.959 --> 00:04:36.879 The murder was in ninety six. Lou began his career 75 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:39.720 in sixty six, nineteen sixty six on the Colins Springs 76 00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:42.800 Police Department, and I started in nineteen seventy two, right 77 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:44.439 out of high school. It wasn't old that be a 78 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:47.360 police officer in Colorado you have to be a twenty 79 00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:49.879 one be a police officer. To make an arraster carry 80 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:52.639 again but at eighteen, I was hired full time by 81 00:04:52.680 --> 00:04:55.519 the ColorOS Springs Police Department as a cadet, and for 82 00:04:55.519 --> 00:04:59.839 the most part we were given administrative jobs, worked in communications, evidence, 83 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:03.240 then a lot I worked in the identication record section, 84 00:05:03.399 --> 00:05:05.120 was my first job for a year and a half, 85 00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:07.959 and that's where I met Will who the detect at 86 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:10.319 the time. The detective Bureau was just down the hall 87 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:14.839 from the ID Bureau records identication, and whenever detecteds needed 88 00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:16.600 to see if there was a bug shot on a 89 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:20.199 person over if they if they had higher records or 90 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:24.120 anything and file, they came to the Identification ID Bureau 91 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:28.040 counter and cadets as well as civilians would ask the 92 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:31.480 detectives what is it that you need? And Lou really 93 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:34.399 stood out from one of the very first times I've 94 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:37.399 met him there. He was so thorough, so engaging. He 95 00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:42.879 was just a very polite, humble man, and so I 96 00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:46.879 really enjoyed that interaction and went out of my way 97 00:05:46.920 --> 00:05:50.199 whenever he asked for something that was related to a case. 98 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:52.160 In the middle of the not we worked shift work, 99 00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:54.040 so in the middle of the night I'd often read 100 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:56.439 the unsolved cases, and when Lou had come in, I 101 00:05:56.560 --> 00:05:59.439 talked to him about those cases because he always worked 102 00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:03.800 une solid workers today called gold cases, and so when 103 00:06:03.920 --> 00:06:06.920 he filed a report, I'd go through his supplementary reports 104 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:10.920 to see how he detailed an interview or an interrogation 105 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:14.160 or a search board. And he clearly stood out from 106 00:06:14.199 --> 00:06:17.959 the other detectives just he was so terbole and he 107 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:21.839 became kind of an early mentor role model for me. 108 00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:28.160 He said that Loosenet believed in this Locard's exchange principle 109 00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:33.560 or the transfer theory. Explain that, yes, professor Lecard from Lyons, 110 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:37.360 France was the worst, first one who actually documented this theory. 111 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:39.959 Then there's a couple of different names transfer theory and 112 00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:43.879 exchange theory, but basically what the point it gets across 113 00:06:44.120 --> 00:06:47.319 is that whenever a crime is committed, the suspect either 114 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:51.600 leaves something at the scene in or takes something with 115 00:06:51.800 --> 00:06:58.120 them and that exchange, it's almost a triad between the suspect, 116 00:06:58.199 --> 00:07:01.560 the victim, and the scene. And stronger you can connect 117 00:07:01.639 --> 00:07:06.879 those three points true physical evidence, through interviews with witnesses, 118 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:10.560 through a statements conventions, through interviews with the victim of 119 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:13.639 their life, the stronger your case becomes. And what Lou 120 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:16.319 would do is he would go to extraordinary debts to 121 00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:21.199 prove that transfer theory and document extensively, well, what was 122 00:07:21.319 --> 00:07:24.160 taken from the scene, What might the suspect have with 123 00:07:24.279 --> 00:07:26.600 them in his possession if we get a search wark, 124 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:29.079 what did he leave at the scene. And so that 125 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:34.439 fundamental understanding and application of the transfer theory is something 126 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:38.639 that in experienced detectives just may not have a good 127 00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:43.000 understanding of what lou really understood. Even beyond that is, 128 00:07:43.079 --> 00:07:46.600 after he returned from the Cross Springs Lace Department, he 129 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:49.279 went to work for the Coroner's office in the District 130 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:53.000 Attorney's office, so he understood the medical legal side of 131 00:07:53.079 --> 00:07:57.000 death investigations. Side investigations were a number of major cases 132 00:07:57.040 --> 00:07:59.319 they are, and he had experience and over two hundred 133 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:04.560 murder investigations to include Peninsula murder, that kid netber in 134 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:08.439 Colorado's or in El Paso County outside Gm Springs, Colorado, 135 00:08:08.560 --> 00:08:12.319 where he was able to take the same physical evidence 136 00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:15.199 that had been there all along in a cold case 137 00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:18.199 that was four years old ed in languished of a 138 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:20.000 young girl by the name of a heatherd On Church 139 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:23.360 and within eleven weeks he had that suspect. They identified 140 00:08:23.399 --> 00:08:27.639 it in custody in that suspect up pleading guilty to 141 00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:30.959 this first degree murder and later pled guilty to a 142 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:33.360 second count of first degree murder. And that was all 143 00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:36.879 that Lou Smith's worked with he and his team detectives. 144 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:41.320 You also chronicle another case where you say that evil 145 00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:44.279 came to Colorado Springs in nineteen seventy five with the 146 00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:48.440 Freddie Lee Glenn, and Michael Corbett, and that one of 147 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:53.120 these victims was Karen Grammer Kelsey, Grammar's sister, and that 148 00:08:53.720 --> 00:08:57.240 Lew had connected the crimes of Glenn and Corbett and 149 00:08:57.279 --> 00:08:59.559 which we were five murders. Tell us a little bit 150 00:08:59.559 --> 00:09:02.679 about Lou and his involvement in this case, a very 151 00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:07.320 tragic case where Aaron Kelsey, Grammer's younger sister had a 152 00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:10.360 job here in Clora Springs at a restaurant and a 153 00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:14.360 group of African American arm robbers came in to rob 154 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:18.200 the restaurant, left without any money at Karen, who was 155 00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:20.879 dating one of the other employees that were one of 156 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:23.360 the cooks, was waiting for him to get off, and 157 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:27.679 as the robberty's suspects for leaving the restaurant, they abducted 158 00:09:27.799 --> 00:09:31.919 Kieren and she was brutally raped and murdered. And this 159 00:09:32.200 --> 00:09:36.240 was one of a string of cases that these suspects 160 00:09:36.279 --> 00:09:39.320 were involved in, and I was only on the scene 161 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:41.879 on one of these. I was a young rookie police 162 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:45.240 officer by that time, and I of course knew Lou 163 00:09:45.559 --> 00:09:48.000 from the time I'd been at police cadet, But Lou 164 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:50.360 was one of the detectives on one of the scenes 165 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:53.360 that I was present at. But he had the ability 166 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:57.000 to look at the evidence of all of these different cases. 167 00:09:57.000 --> 00:09:59.039 I think there were five that he ended up lanking 168 00:09:59.080 --> 00:10:02.440 together with the scene group of suspects, most of whom 169 00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:06.559 were at the time for Carson soldiers for Carson is 170 00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:09.960 a large military base here in the Color Springs, Colorado area, 171 00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:14.320 and ended up getting convictions on both Borbitten and Glenn. 172 00:10:14.600 --> 00:10:17.120 And the reason I kind of bring out those earlier 173 00:10:17.159 --> 00:10:21.200 cases is to show the complexity of the investigations and 174 00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:24.519 his capability of a detective to see things and a 175 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:28.360 lot of other detectives myself included, may have overlooked, and 176 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:33.559 he had the experience and knowledge to apply those investigative 177 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:37.159 skills on cases successfully. So when he was hired to 178 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:41.200 be part of the Boulder District Attorney's Office Ramsey task Force. 179 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:43.919 He brought all that experience with him and that was 180 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:47.440 sorely needed because the Boulder Police Department did not have 181 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:51.559 experienced homicide detectives. For people not familiar with Boulder, Colorado, 182 00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:55.919 it's a bedroom community outside of Denver, Colorado, the state capital. 183 00:10:56.279 --> 00:11:00.279 It's a beautiful community. It has the state Colorado State 184 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:04.559 University is their large campus. There's some high tech industry there, 185 00:11:04.600 --> 00:11:07.279 but it's a smaller community where you don't get a 186 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:10.639 lot of major crimes to include home sides. Now, you 187 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:14.879 just mentioned that Lou Smith's involvement with Boulder Caiado Police 188 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:18.000 Department and this task force, the Ramsey Task Force. Tell 189 00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:20.639 us where you are in your career at that time. 190 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:21.919 You talked about that. 191 00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:26.279 You gained invaluable experience being involved with Low seeing how 192 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:30.399 he operated from the beginning right to the conviction, through 193 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:35.200 the entire process, even the following two perpetrators we talked about. 194 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:37.720 He had asked you to come along to that interview, 195 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:40.600 so very very interesting how he got how involved you 196 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:43.919 were in learning from Lou Smidt tell us about the 197 00:11:44.080 --> 00:11:48.679 circumstances in which he is involved with the Ramsey case, 198 00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:52.720 and what is his belief initially about the Ramseys and 199 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:54.000 their field. 200 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:57.720 Good question, and let me try to wrap that up 201 00:11:57.759 --> 00:12:00.679 with the belief that he had wing in. And I 202 00:12:00.759 --> 00:12:03.279 know this because we talked about this when he was 203 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:07.840 hired for being interviewed by Alex Huder, the Boulder District Attorney. 204 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:11.639 Lou had used me for reference and he gave me 205 00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:13.960 heads up that Hey, Johnny, you might be getting call 206 00:12:14.039 --> 00:12:16.600 from Boulder DA. I put you down as a reference. 207 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:19.120 They're putting together this tennis force and they need a 208 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:22.279 couple of experienced investigators, so I was happy to give 209 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:25.840 a reference to the Buller DA. At that time I 210 00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:29.480 had been elected the sheriff in Alpass County. Hola Spring 211 00:12:30.039 --> 00:12:32.519 is the county seat Bowler is about an hour and 212 00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:34.799 a half in a north and a little west of 213 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:37.279 where I lived at the time, and when I became 214 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:41.159 the sheriff in nineteen ninety four I was elected. I 215 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:44.600 started junior mccamp in ninety five and Lou became my 216 00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:49.200 captain of detectives. Unfortunately, his wife, Barb had been diagnosed 217 00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:52.679 with cancer and was undergoing some treatment, so Lou ended 218 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:56.720 up retiring from the county. From the Sheriff's Office had 219 00:12:56.759 --> 00:12:59.919 already previously retired from the police department as at all, 220 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:03.799 and so he had gone into retirement. When the Boulder 221 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:07.639 DA called him, he was Alex Hander. The DA Lou 222 00:13:07.879 --> 00:13:11.120 out of retirement to be a part of this task force. 223 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:15.679 So going in. Before Lou started first day with the 224 00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:18.360 task force, he and I had talked when he gave 225 00:13:18.399 --> 00:13:20.519 me heads up that the DA may be calling me, 226 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:23.960 and we both thought, again, just from living to information 227 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:26.240 from the media and what the police department had put 228 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:27.919 out there, this was probably going to be a pretty 229 00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:31.720 straightforward case. It sounded like initially that it had to 230 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:35.759 have been a family member, since there was reportedly no 231 00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:39.960 footprints in the snow, no forced entry, And what Lou 232 00:13:40.200 --> 00:13:42.440 said is, well, you know, I think it's probably just 233 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:45.480 a matter of supporting through who in the family was responsible. 234 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:48.639 But you know, within probably a week or two, it 235 00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:51.519 wasn't very long. Actually, the next time I spoke to Lou, 236 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:54.720 I asked him how things were going in Boulder, and 237 00:13:54.919 --> 00:13:57.039 the first thing he said is, Johnny, there's something wrong 238 00:13:57.080 --> 00:13:59.240 with this case. He said, the evidence doesn't match up 239 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:02.200 with what we're being and the more he got involved 240 00:14:02.200 --> 00:14:05.799 in the case, the more he was perplexed with what 241 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:09.480 is being told by the police to the media and 242 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:12.720 to the public into other law enforcement was not at 243 00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:15.799 all the truth. There was forced entry into the home 244 00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:19.600 in the basement. There was no footprints in the snow 245 00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:21.519 on the south side of the house because the snow 246 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:24.639 had melted. In Colorado, when you have a southern facing 247 00:14:24.759 --> 00:14:27.840 the home or business, that the sun worms that the 248 00:14:27.879 --> 00:14:30.399 snow there more quickly than on the shaded side, So 249 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:34.120 the snow had already melted. And Blue came to the 250 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:36.840 belief that there had to have been an intruder who 251 00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:39.200 came into the home. And when he brought that to 252 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:42.960 the attention of the Boulder detectives, they were incensed he 253 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:46.320 was not going along with what their theory had been 254 00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:49.279 it was a family member, and whenever he pointed out 255 00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:54.399 physical evidence to the contrary, he was dismissed and really 256 00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:58.840 chastised for not going along with what they were saying. 257 00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:01.960 I know I'll be sized too by Boulder and other 258 00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:04.639 law enforcement agencies for speaking out, But Lou had the 259 00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:07.399 courage to say, this is just not right. The work 260 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:10.159 the case is as long as he could tolerate it 261 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:12.720 for a year and a half. But when the Boulder 262 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:17.440 Grand Jury was being in panel to indict the parents, 263 00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:20.960 Lou resigned in protest and he wrote a letter, a 264 00:15:21.080 --> 00:15:24.360 very heartfelt letter to the district attorney like senator who 265 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:26.519 had hired him, and he said, I just cannot be 266 00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:29.879 a part of this injustice. He said, it just is unethical, 267 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:33.279 and so he resigned in protests and had to fight 268 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:36.679 his way to get in to testify at the grand jury. 269 00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:41.120 Let's go back, Let's unwine this story and go back 270 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:45.600 to the faithful. December twenty sixth, nineteen ninety six, five 271 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:49.320 point fifty two, Patsy Ramsey calls nine one one. Tell 272 00:15:49.399 --> 00:15:52.679 us what the family had done on Christmas Day? Where 273 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:55.519 they had gone? You talk about the plans that they 274 00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:58.360 had for Disneyland a few days later. Tell us where 275 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:01.960 the family was at forehand, and what happens at five 276 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:05.960 point fifty two, and what is the first response from 277 00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:07.440 Boulder Police Department. 278 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:10.960 And I'm happy to and I might qualify this that 279 00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:14.120 in deciding to write this book about two years ago, 280 00:16:14.360 --> 00:16:18.000 I realized that I was in a unique position to 281 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:21.240 write this. Not only had I known Blue personally and 282 00:16:21.519 --> 00:16:25.120 been involved on the fringe of the investigation since he 283 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:29.480 was first brought in but the family, through the Smit 284 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:33.080 Family team that I'm still guard of, I was given 285 00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:38.960 unrestricted access to his investigative notes and his tentation. He 286 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:43.240 put it together a a an extraordinary spreadsheet, very detailed. 287 00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:47.639 Family was so supportive of this book and helping get 288 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:50.679 the truth out there that I had restricted access to 289 00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:53.559 six hundred and thirty two slides that he had put 290 00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:56.559 together in his lifetime, a spreadsheet of eight hundred and 291 00:16:56.639 --> 00:17:01.240 eighty three columns, I mean rose fifty four call of 292 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:06.200 each of these spreadsheets. This spreadsheet, each the cells over 293 00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:10.599 forty seven thousand potential pieces of information. The report, the 294 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:14.519 Boulder Police report on this investigation is over one hundred 295 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:18.200 thousand pages. And he had all of this information on 296 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:23.000 his computer and his investigating notes. And what I realized 297 00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:27.000 was what he left behind his legacy was this investigation 298 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:31.200 that now I was in a unique position to write about. 299 00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:35.200 I had been with him on so many of these cases. 300 00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:37.440 So got to the point where I felt, you know 301 00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:42.160 that the family deserves this information to come to help 302 00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:44.920 public deserves to know the truth. And if I don't 303 00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:48.440 write this story, well then then who is I apologized, Dan, 304 00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:50.079 I kind of went off on a tangent there, and 305 00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:53.480 I don't know that the answered your question originally, But 306 00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:55.880 can you respond and get me back on track if 307 00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:58.680 I took this off on the Sidebarder, Well, I'm glad 308 00:17:58.720 --> 00:17:59.079 you did. 309 00:17:59.319 --> 00:18:06.079 You did indicate that based on Loosemith's comprehensive and extraordinary 310 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:10.279 note taking along with these slides, the amount of slides 311 00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:12.960 that he has that are on the Wild Blue Press 312 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:16.200 website for people to see from that you were able 313 00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:19.599 to go back to December twenty sixth, nineteen ninety six, 314 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:24.000 see what the Boulder police response was initially and see 315 00:18:24.039 --> 00:18:28.319 how this tragedy unfolded. Tell us about five point fifty 316 00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:31.480 two and Patsy Ramsey's calt in two nine one one, 317 00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:34.599 and what happens when Boulder police respond. 318 00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:37.359 Thank you to forget me back. And I should make 319 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:39.920 sure that I'm not overstating what's on the Wild Blue 320 00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:46.400 Press website wwww dot wildbluepress dot com. What's on there? 321 00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:51.000 Twenty slides of blues. The book has an additional thirty six, 322 00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:53.960 so it's only fifty six slides of his six hundred 323 00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:56.759 and thirty two slide presentation that he put together The 324 00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:00.559 other unique thing that I have is true Lou introduced 325 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:04.599 me to both Patsy and John Ramsey. Patsy passed away 326 00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:08.319 four years after the worker at the age of forty nine, 327 00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:11.680 but I have since then been in contact with John 328 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:15.319 Ramsey as well as his son John Andrew Ramsey. And 329 00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:18.200 so I'm in a unique position when someone might make 330 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:24.160 a statement based upon secondhand information speculation. Getting in a 331 00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:27.240 unique position because I know the story that you're asking 332 00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:30.559 about at five fifty two a m under Simmer twenty six, 333 00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:34.400 nineteen ninety six, not only through Low's Lands as a 334 00:19:34.599 --> 00:19:37.640 Pomspen detective and having still in this case for the 335 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:39.960 last twenty six years, but I've also heard this story 336 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:45.200 from John Ramsey, John Bennie's father. As the family wakes 337 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:49.839 up that morning, Patsy the mother goes down the huge 338 00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:52.440 home three level above ground and then a basement, and 339 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:54.920 she's going down from the upper level, which is where 340 00:19:54.920 --> 00:19:57.720 the master bedroom suite was. As she's going down the 341 00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:01.839 spiral staircase on the bottoms up, she finds this three 342 00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:05.079 page ransom note that the killer had laughed saying that 343 00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:08.079 they have their daughter and if they're not paid this 344 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:11.279 ransom demand one hundred and eighty thousand dollars. Then it 345 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:14.000 she'll be murdered. And so she runs upstairs to the 346 00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:17.519 second floor, which is where John Benney's bedroom was, finds 347 00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:21.480 the bed empty, screams out. John Ramsey, who is upstairs 348 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:24.880 in the master bedroom, comes down. They search the house, 349 00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:28.799 they can't find her. Immediately, John Ramsey tells Patsy, now 350 00:20:29.079 --> 00:20:31.480 call the police. Call the police. Why he's searching, you know, 351 00:20:31.599 --> 00:20:34.319 the rest of the home. And to also feel like 352 00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:37.079 your question about what the family had been doing that day, 353 00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:39.519 what they were intending to do, because that's an important 354 00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:43.039 part of the story. Is on Christmas Day, December twenty six, 355 00:20:43.480 --> 00:20:46.039 ninety six, and when they open their presence, you know, 356 00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:49.440 just like any family would. That evening, they go to 357 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:52.640 a French house, they have a nice dinner, and then 358 00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:55.960 they come home around ten thirty. Return home in the car. 359 00:20:56.039 --> 00:20:59.559 There's an attached broad floor. John Bennet had fallen asleep 360 00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:04.279 per day stairs it's bed, and then and Bert also 361 00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:06.400 goes to sleep. He's on that same level. So it's 362 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:08.880 been a long day for them Christmas Day, everybody is 363 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:12.480 tired and they're trying to prepare for the next day. 364 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:15.759 Because they were going to be leaving early in the morning. 365 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:19.519 John Ramsey is pilot and he would at the time 366 00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:21.880 his own plane, and they were going to fly to 367 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:26.759 their baby ship home in the four Ramseys, John Patsy, 368 00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:31.039 John Namper. They were going to catch commercial flight from 369 00:21:31.079 --> 00:21:34.000 Denver to Florida, where they were going to board the 370 00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:39.200 Disney CRUs So who was a lot of exciting time 371 00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:41.480 head that they had been planning. 372 00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:45.920 So John tell us about the initial search by police, 373 00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:51.200 what they discover, before we talk about the subsequent searches 374 00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:52.279 of the Ramsey home. 375 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:56.440 Good The first responding officer is Officer French from the 376 00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:59.079 Boulder Police Department. When he arrives within minutes of the 377 00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:02.599 nine month one call, he's handed the kidnapping note. He 378 00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:05.240 takes a brief look at it, then he searches the home, 379 00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:08.720 does not open the door downstairs in the basement where 380 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:11.720 John Beney's body was found. But he was there in 381 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:15.039 the basement and he saw that door and for whatever 382 00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:18.839 reason did not unlock it and go inside. A fall 383 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:21.720 for assistance. One of the good things that happened is 384 00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:25.680 there's other officers, supervisors and the crime lab that arrives 385 00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:29.079 and they do photograph the scene early on, and those 386 00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:32.279 photographs were important for Lou to be able to determine 387 00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:34.960 that there was a window standing open in the basement. 388 00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:37.720 It was a window that had been previously opened by 389 00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:40.839 John Ramsay munsterly when he had been locked out of 390 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:43.160 the home, and Lou saw that there was this large 391 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:46.720 green suitcase propped up below the window that he theorized 392 00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:50.519 might have been used by the suspect and exiting the home. 393 00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:53.839 So there was some good photography at the crime scene 394 00:22:54.119 --> 00:22:55.799 that was used later on. 395 00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:59.680 Where was the suitcase from and what was found inside 396 00:22:59.720 --> 00:23:00.480 that's suitcase? 397 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:03.799 The suitcase, all of the luggage of the family was 398 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:06.680 in the basement, but it was not in that position. 399 00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:12.039 And so when John Ramsey was asked by Detective Arnt 400 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:14.799 to take one other person who was in the home 401 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:17.880