Speaker 1: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 1: Killers in True crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 1: written about him. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 1: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 1: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 1: host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 2: Good Evening.
Speaker 3: On Christmas Night nineteen ninety six, six year old John
Speaker 3: Benet Ramsay was murdered in her family's home in Boulder, Colorado.
Speaker 3: A ransom note was found in the home, but it
Speaker 3: was hours before her father, John found her body in
Speaker 3: the basement. She'd been strangled with a garat and her
Speaker 3: skull was fractured. Media sensationalized the tragic death of the
Speaker 3: child beauty queen, and public speculation and rumors ran rampant.
Speaker 3: What followed was one of the most notorious unsolved murder
Speaker 3: investigations in American history. Boulder police fixated on John Binney's
Speaker 3: parents as suspects. Needing investigative help, the Boulder DA brought
Speaker 3: in legendary homicide detective lou Smitt. However, he was soon
Speaker 3: disenchanted with law enforcement's obsession with the Ramsey family as
Speaker 3: the primary suspects, excluding other possibilities. Smitt resigned but continued
Speaker 3: to work on his own time and at his own expense,
Speaker 3: determined to find justice for John Benney. He determined the
Speaker 3: Ramsey family was not involved in her death, but died
Speaker 3: in twenty ten before he could identify the killer. Thousands
Speaker 3: of people attended his funeral service, including John Ramsey and
Speaker 3: the detective's lifelong friend and colleague, John Anderson, along with
Speaker 3: a handful of retired detectives. Anderson and Smitt family continue
Speaker 3: to pursue justice. Aiste on Smith's work now for the
Speaker 3: first time and Lou and John Beney Anderson tells the
Speaker 3: story of Smith's investigation and why the Smitt family team
Speaker 3: now believes that the killer can be identified. The book
Speaker 3: that we're featuring this evening is Lou and John Beney,
Speaker 3: A Legendaries Lawman's Quest to Solve a Beauty Queen's Murder,
Speaker 3: with my special guest author, John Wesley Anderson. Welcome to
Speaker 3: the program, and thank you so much for this interview.
Speaker 3: John Wesley Anderson.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Dan, it's a privilege to be with you.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, and congratulations on this extraordinary book.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you. I accept that on behalf of the team.
Speaker 2: There was quite a significant team over the last several
Speaker 2: years that have been involved in making sure this book
Speaker 2: was out there and that the truth was known.
Speaker 3: You write about that what you wanted to do with
Speaker 3: this book, what you intended, the three things that you
Speaker 3: hoped that this book would produce. Could you tell us
Speaker 3: about that briefly?
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you. In the purpose of the book is
Speaker 2: to do three things. Is to get the truth out there.
Speaker 2: There's been a lot of misperceptions and untruths about the book,
Speaker 2: so that's first thing. The second thing is to communicate
Speaker 2: the belief that Loose Smith had that no member of
Speaker 2: the Ramsey family was involved in any way in the
Speaker 2: death of John Bennet, and that's been established I think
Speaker 2: in the book beyond any reasonable adapt But the third
Speaker 2: thing is to encourage, particularly law enforcement, except the fact
Speaker 2: that this case is still solvable. The DNA is good
Speaker 2: enough that it can identify who the killer is, it
Speaker 2: can show who the killer is not, and it can
Speaker 2: exclude people of interests that have been brought up in
Speaker 2: the case, such as the Ramsey family.
Speaker 3: Let's get right away to this fascinating story that you
Speaker 3: have here, which includes your mentor Loui Smith. Andrew Lewis
Speaker 3: Louis Smith born nineteen thirty five in Denver, Colorado, enter
Speaker 3: the Navy seventeen and married his sweetheart Barbara, four kids, Lori, Cindy, Mark,
Speaker 3: and down. I became a comp in nineteen ninety six,
Speaker 3: and he called you, Johnny. You were eighteen years old
Speaker 3: working at the Identification Bureau in Colorado Springs Police Department.
Speaker 3: This is nineteen seventy two. Tell us about Andrew Lewis
Speaker 3: lou Smidt, what you already knew about him, what was
Speaker 3: his already his background that you knew about, And tell
Speaker 3: us about the relationship that you gradually and eventually developed
Speaker 3: with Loosemith.
Speaker 2: Happy to do that. One minor correction, just a slip.
Speaker 2: The murder was in ninety six. Lou began his career
Speaker 2: in sixty six, nineteen sixty six on the Colins Springs
Speaker 2: Police Department, and I started in nineteen seventy two, right
Speaker 2: out of high school. It wasn't old that be a
Speaker 2: police officer in Colorado you have to be a twenty
Speaker 2: one be a police officer. To make an arraster carry
Speaker 2: again but at eighteen, I was hired full time by
Speaker 2: the ColorOS Springs Police Department as a cadet, and for
Speaker 2: the most part we were given administrative jobs, worked in communications, evidence,
Speaker 2: then a lot I worked in the identication record section,
Speaker 2: was my first job for a year and a half,
Speaker 2: and that's where I met Will who the detect at
Speaker 2: the time. The detective Bureau was just down the hall
Speaker 2: from the ID Bureau records identication, and whenever detecteds needed
Speaker 2: to see if there was a bug shot on a
Speaker 2: person over if they if they had higher records or
Speaker 2: anything and file, they came to the Identification ID Bureau
Speaker 2: counter and cadets as well as civilians would ask the
Speaker 2: detectives what is it that you need? And Lou really
Speaker 2: stood out from one of the very first times I've
Speaker 2: met him there. He was so thorough, so engaging. He
Speaker 2: was just a very polite, humble man, and so I
Speaker 2: really enjoyed that interaction and went out of my way
Speaker 2: whenever he asked for something that was related to a case.
Speaker 2: In the middle of the not we worked shift work,
Speaker 2: so in the middle of the night I'd often read
Speaker 2: the unsolved cases, and when Lou had come in, I
Speaker 2: talked to him about those cases because he always worked
Speaker 2: une solid workers today called gold cases, and so when
Speaker 2: he filed a report, I'd go through his supplementary reports
Speaker 2: to see how he detailed an interview or an interrogation
Speaker 2: or a search board. And he clearly stood out from
Speaker 2: the other detectives just he was so terbole and he
Speaker 2: became kind of an early mentor role model for me.
Speaker 3: He said that Loosenet believed in this Locard's exchange principle
Speaker 3: or the transfer theory. Explain that, yes, professor Lecard from Lyons,
Speaker 3: France was the worst, first one who actually documented this theory.
Speaker 3: Then there's a couple of different names transfer theory and
Speaker 3: exchange theory, but basically what the point it gets across
Speaker 3: is that whenever a crime is committed, the suspect either
Speaker 3: leaves something at the scene in or takes something with
Speaker 3: them and that exchange, it's almost a triad between the suspect,
Speaker 3: the victim, and the scene. And stronger you can connect
Speaker 3: those three points true physical evidence, through interviews with witnesses,
Speaker 3: through a statements conventions, through interviews with the victim of
Speaker 3: their life, the stronger your case becomes. And what Lou
Speaker 3: would do is he would go to extraordinary debts to
Speaker 3: prove that transfer theory and document extensively, well, what was
Speaker 3: taken from the scene, What might the suspect have with
Speaker 3: them in his possession if we get a search wark,
Speaker 3: what did he leave at the scene. And so that
Speaker 3: fundamental understanding and application of the transfer theory is something
Speaker 3: that in experienced detectives just may not have a good
Speaker 3: understanding of what lou really understood. Even beyond that is,
Speaker 3: after he returned from the Cross Springs Lace Department, he
Speaker 3: went to work for the Coroner's office in the District
Speaker 3: Attorney's office, so he understood the medical legal side of
Speaker 3: death investigations. Side investigations were a number of major cases
Speaker 3: they are, and he had experience and over two hundred
Speaker 3: murder investigations to include Peninsula murder, that kid netber in
Speaker 3: Colorado's or in El Paso County outside Gm Springs, Colorado,
Speaker 3: where he was able to take the same physical evidence
Speaker 3: that had been there all along in a cold case
Speaker 3: that was four years old ed in languished of a
Speaker 3: young girl by the name of a heatherd On Church
Speaker 3: and within eleven weeks he had that suspect. They identified
Speaker 3: it in custody in that suspect up pleading guilty to
Speaker 3: this first degree murder and later pled guilty to a
Speaker 3: second count of first degree murder. And that was all
Speaker 3: that Lou Smith's worked with he and his team detectives.
Speaker 3: You also chronicle another case where you say that evil
Speaker 3: came to Colorado Springs in nineteen seventy five with the
Speaker 3: Freddie Lee Glenn, and Michael Corbett, and that one of
Speaker 3: these victims was Karen Grammer Kelsey, Grammar's sister, and that
Speaker 3: Lew had connected the crimes of Glenn and Corbett and
Speaker 3: which we were five murders. Tell us a little bit
Speaker 3: about Lou and his involvement in this case, a very
Speaker 3: tragic case where Aaron Kelsey, Grammer's younger sister had a
Speaker 3: job here in Clora Springs at a restaurant and a
Speaker 3: group of African American arm robbers came in to rob
Speaker 3: the restaurant, left without any money at Karen, who was
Speaker 3: dating one of the other employees that were one of
Speaker 3: the cooks, was waiting for him to get off, and
Speaker 3: as the robberty's suspects for leaving the restaurant, they abducted
Speaker 3: Kieren and she was brutally raped and murdered. And this
Speaker 3: was one of a string of cases that these suspects
Speaker 3: were involved in, and I was only on the scene
Speaker 3: on one of these. I was a young rookie police
Speaker 3: officer by that time, and I of course knew Lou
Speaker 3: from the time I'd been at police cadet, But Lou
Speaker 3: was one of the detectives on one of the scenes
Speaker 3: that I was present at. But he had the ability
Speaker 3: to look at the evidence of all of these different cases.
Speaker 3: I think there were five that he ended up lanking
Speaker 3: together with the scene group of suspects, most of whom
Speaker 3: were at the time for Carson soldiers for Carson is
Speaker 3: a large military base here in the Color Springs, Colorado area,
Speaker 3: and ended up getting convictions on both Borbitten and Glenn.
Speaker 3: And the reason I kind of bring out those earlier
Speaker 3: cases is to show the complexity of the investigations and
Speaker 3: his capability of a detective to see things and a
Speaker 3: lot of other detectives myself included, may have overlooked, and
Speaker 3: he had the experience and knowledge to apply those investigative
Speaker 3: skills on cases successfully. So when he was hired to
Speaker 3: be part of the Boulder District Attorney's Office Ramsey task Force.
Speaker 3: He brought all that experience with him and that was
Speaker 3: sorely needed because the Boulder Police Department did not have
Speaker 3: experienced homicide detectives. For people not familiar with Boulder, Colorado,
Speaker 3: it's a bedroom community outside of Denver, Colorado, the state capital.
Speaker 3: It's a beautiful community. It has the state Colorado State
Speaker 3: University is their large campus. There's some high tech industry there,
Speaker 3: but it's a smaller community where you don't get a
Speaker 3: lot of major crimes to include home sides. Now, you
Speaker 3: just mentioned that Lou Smith's involvement with Boulder Caiado Police
Speaker 3: Department and this task force, the Ramsey Task Force. Tell
Speaker 3: us where you are in your career at that time.
Speaker 2: You talked about that.
Speaker 3: You gained invaluable experience being involved with Low seeing how
Speaker 3: he operated from the beginning right to the conviction, through
Speaker 3: the entire process, even the following two perpetrators we talked about.
Speaker 3: He had asked you to come along to that interview,
Speaker 3: so very very interesting how he got how involved you
Speaker 3: were in learning from Lou Smidt tell us about the
Speaker 3: circumstances in which he is involved with the Ramsey case,
Speaker 3: and what is his belief initially about the Ramseys and
Speaker 3: their field.
Speaker 2: Good question, and let me try to wrap that up
Speaker 2: with the belief that he had wing in. And I
Speaker 2: know this because we talked about this when he was
Speaker 2: hired for being interviewed by Alex Huder, the Boulder District Attorney.
Speaker 2: Lou had used me for reference and he gave me
Speaker 2: heads up that Hey, Johnny, you might be getting call
Speaker 2: from Boulder DA. I put you down as a reference.
Speaker 2: They're putting together this tennis force and they need a
Speaker 2: couple of experienced investigators, so I was happy to give
Speaker 2: a reference to the Buller DA. At that time I
Speaker 2: had been elected the sheriff in Alpass County. Hola Spring
Speaker 2: is the county seat Bowler is about an hour and
Speaker 2: a half in a north and a little west of
Speaker 2: where I lived at the time, and when I became
Speaker 2: the sheriff in nineteen ninety four I was elected. I
Speaker 2: started junior mccamp in ninety five and Lou became my
Speaker 2: captain of detectives. Unfortunately, his wife, Barb had been diagnosed
Speaker 2: with cancer and was undergoing some treatment, so Lou ended
Speaker 2: up retiring from the county. From the Sheriff's Office had
Speaker 2: already previously retired from the police department as at all,
Speaker 2: and so he had gone into retirement. When the Boulder
Speaker 2: DA called him, he was Alex Hander. The DA Lou
Speaker 2: out of retirement to be a part of this task force.
Speaker 2: So going in. Before Lou started first day with the
Speaker 2: task force, he and I had talked when he gave
Speaker 2: me heads up that the DA may be calling me,
Speaker 2: and we both thought, again, just from living to information
Speaker 2: from the media and what the police department had put
Speaker 2: out there, this was probably going to be a pretty
Speaker 2: straightforward case. It sounded like initially that it had to
Speaker 2: have been a family member, since there was reportedly no
Speaker 2: footprints in the snow, no forced entry, And what Lou
Speaker 2: said is, well, you know, I think it's probably just
Speaker 2: a matter of supporting through who in the family was responsible.
Speaker 2: But you know, within probably a week or two, it
Speaker 2: wasn't very long. Actually, the next time I spoke to Lou,
Speaker 2: I asked him how things were going in Boulder, and
Speaker 2: the first thing he said is, Johnny, there's something wrong
Speaker 2: with this case. He said, the evidence doesn't match up
Speaker 2: with what we're being and the more he got involved
Speaker 2: in the case, the more he was perplexed with what
Speaker 2: is being told by the police to the media and
Speaker 2: to the public into other law enforcement was not at
Speaker 2: all the truth. There was forced entry into the home
Speaker 2: in the basement. There was no footprints in the snow
Speaker 2: on the south side of the house because the snow
Speaker 2: had melted. In Colorado, when you have a southern facing
Speaker 2: the home or business, that the sun worms that the
Speaker 2: snow there more quickly than on the shaded side, So
Speaker 2: the snow had already melted. And Blue came to the
Speaker 2: belief that there had to have been an intruder who
Speaker 2: came into the home. And when he brought that to
Speaker 2: the attention of the Boulder detectives, they were incensed he
Speaker 2: was not going along with what their theory had been
Speaker 2: it was a family member, and whenever he pointed out
Speaker 2: physical evidence to the contrary, he was dismissed and really
Speaker 2: chastised for not going along with what they were saying.
Speaker 2: I know I'll be sized too by Boulder and other
Speaker 2: law enforcement agencies for speaking out, But Lou had the
Speaker 2: courage to say, this is just not right. The work
Speaker 2: the case is as long as he could tolerate it
Speaker 2: for a year and a half. But when the Boulder
Speaker 2: Grand Jury was being in panel to indict the parents,
Speaker 2: Lou resigned in protest and he wrote a letter, a
Speaker 2: very heartfelt letter to the district attorney like senator who
Speaker 2: had hired him, and he said, I just cannot be
Speaker 2: a part of this injustice. He said, it just is unethical,
Speaker 2: and so he resigned in protests and had to fight
Speaker 2: his way to get in to testify at the grand jury.
Speaker 3: Let's go back, Let's unwine this story and go back
Speaker 3: to the faithful. December twenty sixth, nineteen ninety six, five
Speaker 3: point fifty two, Patsy Ramsey calls nine one one. Tell
Speaker 3: us what the family had done on Christmas Day? Where
Speaker 3: they had gone? You talk about the plans that they
Speaker 3: had for Disneyland a few days later. Tell us where
Speaker 3: the family was at forehand, and what happens at five
Speaker 3: point fifty two, and what is the first response from
Speaker 3: Boulder Police Department.
Speaker 2: And I'm happy to and I might qualify this that
Speaker 2: in deciding to write this book about two years ago,
Speaker 2: I realized that I was in a unique position to
Speaker 2: write this. Not only had I known Blue personally and
Speaker 2: been involved on the fringe of the investigation since he
Speaker 2: was first brought in but the family, through the Smit
Speaker 2: Family team that I'm still guard of, I was given
Speaker 2: unrestricted access to his investigative notes and his tentation. He
Speaker 2: put it together a a an extraordinary spreadsheet, very detailed.
Speaker 2: Family was so supportive of this book and helping get
Speaker 2: the truth out there that I had restricted access to
Speaker 2: six hundred and thirty two slides that he had put
Speaker 2: together in his lifetime, a spreadsheet of eight hundred and
Speaker 2: eighty three columns, I mean rose fifty four call of
Speaker 2: each of these spreadsheets. This spreadsheet, each the cells over
Speaker 2: forty seven thousand potential pieces of information. The report, the
Speaker 2: Boulder Police report on this investigation is over one hundred
Speaker 2: thousand pages. And he had all of this information on
Speaker 2: his computer and his investigating notes. And what I realized
Speaker 2: was what he left behind his legacy was this investigation
Speaker 2: that now I was in a unique position to write about.
Speaker 2: I had been with him on so many of these cases.
Speaker 2: So got to the point where I felt, you know
Speaker 2: that the family deserves this information to come to help
Speaker 2: public deserves to know the truth. And if I don't
Speaker 2: write this story, well then then who is I apologized, Dan,
Speaker 2: I kind of went off on a tangent there, and
Speaker 2: I don't know that the answered your question originally, But
Speaker 2: can you respond and get me back on track if
Speaker 2: I took this off on the Sidebarder, Well, I'm glad
Speaker 2: you did.
Speaker 3: You did indicate that based on Loosemith's comprehensive and extraordinary
Speaker 3: note taking along with these slides, the amount of slides
Speaker 3: that he has that are on the Wild Blue Press
Speaker 3: website for people to see from that you were able
Speaker 3: to go back to December twenty sixth, nineteen ninety six,
Speaker 3: see what the Boulder police response was initially and see
Speaker 3: how this tragedy unfolded. Tell us about five point fifty
Speaker 3: two and Patsy Ramsey's calt in two nine one one,
Speaker 3: and what happens when Boulder police respond.
Speaker 2: Thank you to forget me back. And I should make
Speaker 2: sure that I'm not overstating what's on the Wild Blue
Speaker 2: Press website wwww dot wildbluepress dot com. What's on there?
Speaker 2: Twenty slides of blues. The book has an additional thirty six,
Speaker 2: so it's only fifty six slides of his six hundred
Speaker 2: and thirty two slide presentation that he put together The
Speaker 2: other unique thing that I have is true Lou introduced
Speaker 2: me to both Patsy and John Ramsey. Patsy passed away
Speaker 2: four years after the worker at the age of forty nine,
Speaker 2: but I have since then been in contact with John
Speaker 2: Ramsey as well as his son John Andrew Ramsey. And
Speaker 2: so I'm in a unique position when someone might make
Speaker 2: a statement based upon secondhand information speculation. Getting in a
Speaker 2: unique position because I know the story that you're asking
Speaker 2: about at five fifty two a m under Simmer twenty six,
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six, not only through Low's Lands as a
Speaker 2: Pomspen detective and having still in this case for the
Speaker 2: last twenty six years, but I've also heard this story
Speaker 2: from John Ramsey, John Bennie's father. As the family wakes
Speaker 2: up that morning, Patsy the mother goes down the huge
Speaker 2: home three level above ground and then a basement, and
Speaker 2: she's going down from the upper level, which is where
Speaker 2: the master bedroom suite was. As she's going down the
Speaker 2: spiral staircase on the bottoms up, she finds this three
Speaker 2: page ransom note that the killer had laughed saying that
Speaker 2: they have their daughter and if they're not paid this
Speaker 2: ransom demand one hundred and eighty thousand dollars. Then it
Speaker 2: she'll be murdered. And so she runs upstairs to the
Speaker 2: second floor, which is where John Benney's bedroom was, finds
Speaker 2: the bed empty, screams out. John Ramsey, who is upstairs
Speaker 2: in the master bedroom, comes down. They search the house,
Speaker 2: they can't find her. Immediately, John Ramsey tells Patsy, now
Speaker 2: call the police. Call the police. Why he's searching, you know,
Speaker 2: the rest of the home. And to also feel like
Speaker 2: your question about what the family had been doing that day,
Speaker 2: what they were intending to do, because that's an important
Speaker 2: part of the story. Is on Christmas Day, December twenty six,
Speaker 2: ninety six, and when they open their presence, you know,
Speaker 2: just like any family would. That evening, they go to
Speaker 2: a French house, they have a nice dinner, and then
Speaker 2: they come home around ten thirty. Return home in the car.
Speaker 2: There's an attached broad floor. John Bennet had fallen asleep
Speaker 2: per day stairs it's bed, and then and Bert also
Speaker 2: goes to sleep. He's on that same level. So it's
Speaker 2: been a long day for them Christmas Day, everybody is
Speaker 2: tired and they're trying to prepare for the next day.
Speaker 2: Because they were going to be leaving early in the morning.
Speaker 2: John Ramsey is pilot and he would at the time
Speaker 2: his own plane, and they were going to fly to
Speaker 2: their baby ship home in the four Ramseys, John Patsy,
Speaker 2: John Namper. They were going to catch commercial flight from
Speaker 2: Denver to Florida, where they were going to board the
Speaker 2: Disney CRUs So who was a lot of exciting time
Speaker 2: head that they had been planning.
Speaker 3: So John tell us about the initial search by police,
Speaker 3: what they discover, before we talk about the subsequent searches
Speaker 3: of the Ramsey home.
Speaker 2: Good The first responding officer is Officer French from the
Speaker 2: Boulder Police Department. When he arrives within minutes of the
Speaker 2: nine month one call, he's handed the kidnapping note. He
Speaker 2: takes a brief look at it, then he searches the home,
Speaker 2: does not open the door downstairs in the basement where
Speaker 2: John Beney's body was found. But he was there in
Speaker 2: the basement and he saw that door and for whatever
Speaker 2: reason did not unlock it and go inside. A fall
Speaker 2: for assistance. One of the good things that happened is
Speaker 2: there's other officers, supervisors and the crime lab that arrives
Speaker 2: and they do photograph the scene early on, and those
Speaker 2: photographs were important for Lou to be able to determine
Speaker 2: that there was a window standing open in the basement.
Speaker 2: It was a window that had been previously opened by
Speaker 2: John Ramsay munsterly when he had been locked out of
Speaker 2: the home, and Lou saw that there was this large
Speaker 2: green suitcase propped up below the window that he theorized
Speaker 2: might have been used by the suspect and exiting the home.
Speaker 2: So there was some good photography at the crime scene
Speaker 2: that was used later on.
Speaker 3: Where was the suitcase from and what was found inside
Speaker 3: that's suitcase?
Speaker 2: The suitcase, all of the luggage of the family was
Speaker 2: in the basement, but it was not in that position.
Speaker 2: And so when John Ramsey was asked by Detective Arnt
Speaker 2: to take one other person who was in the home
Speaker 2: and searched the house from top to bottom. When he
Speaker 2: went into the basement with this other neighbor, this is
Speaker 2: now seven hours after nine one. But when John Ramsey
Speaker 2: went down the basement with the other gentleman, he pointed
Speaker 2: out that that window was standing open. He said, that's
Speaker 2: the window that I got in that i'd broken before,
Speaker 2: And he said that suitcase wasn't there, that doesn't belong there.
Speaker 2: Inside the suitcase was two important things. That was not
Speaker 2: John Benney's suitcase, but inside was one of her Barbie
Speaker 2: dolls in one of her favorite books, a Doctor Zeus's book.
Speaker 2: And what Lu theorized is that the suspect had intended
Speaker 2: to remove John Benny from the home by being inside
Speaker 2: that suitcase, and when he was preparing that obviously wanted
Speaker 2: her to have a book and a doll and so
Speaker 2: Lu believed that she was alive when that suitcase was
Speaker 2: positioned below that window. But for whatever reason, whether or not,
Speaker 2: they weren't able to it's window the suitcase through the window.
Speaker 2: But that's an important part of showing that there was
Speaker 2: an attempt to kidnap the little girl.
Speaker 3: Now this ensuing seven hours. They look at the ransom note.
Speaker 3: They look at the gist of the ransom notes, which
Speaker 3: directs them to the specific amounts of money one hundred
Speaker 3: and eighteen thousand dollars. And you write, when John was
Speaker 3: asked what the one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars might be,
Speaker 3: that specific amount that was there was blank checks or
Speaker 3: there was indications of that amount of money, which was
Speaker 3: a bonus for that year of his work, so that
Speaker 3: the perpetrator could have seen some evidence of that specific
Speaker 3: number one hundred and eighteen thousand.
Speaker 2: So they were arranging.
Speaker 3: He was arranging to get that money in that ensuing
Speaker 3: seven hours before he was asked by a friend and
Speaker 3: the detective Arm't to go search the house once again.
Speaker 3: He opened that door that had not been previously open,
Speaker 3: and he discovered John Bennet on her back, her hands
Speaker 3: tied with sort of a string like material, and a
Speaker 3: black duct tape on her mouth. Tell us what he
Speaker 3: does and as a result, obviously contaminates this crime scene.
Speaker 2: Yes, and tragically one of the biggest mistakes that was
Speaker 2: made by the police early on was not blocking down
Speaker 2: that crime scene and preserving the crime scene. There were
Speaker 2: people that were allowed in, family members rowing throughout the house.
Speaker 2: The ransom note was passed around to different people that
Speaker 2: the family's priest was wowed into the home, and detectives
Speaker 2: came and went. Crime scene people came and went. Nobody
Speaker 2: looked into that behind that door for seven hours until
Speaker 2: Dexecutive Aren't asked John Ramsey to take one other man
Speaker 2: that was there. A friend in searched the home. The
Speaker 2: paycheck stab. I should mention that John was Ramsey was
Speaker 2: paid a bonus at the beginning of the year for
Speaker 2: the one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars, and that amount
Speaker 2: was on each of the paycheck steps that was subsequently
Speaker 2: printed throughout the year. Since this was the end of
Speaker 2: the year, there were paycheck steps, John explains throughout the house,
Speaker 2: So anybody could have looked at that paycheck step and
Speaker 2: seeing that mount one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars. That
Speaker 2: was his best guess of where that amount came from.
Speaker 2: Other than that it really had no value to him.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 3: The also the thing that Lou Smith noticed there was
Speaker 3: other evidence outside that he thought was pursuant to the
Speaker 3: injuries that John Bennet had experienced. So tell us about
Speaker 3: the baseball bats.
Speaker 2: Lou in reviewing the crime scene photos on the exterior
Speaker 2: of the home that we're taking that morning before the
Speaker 2: body was found, he noticed an aluminum baseball bat, a
Speaker 2: black one that was along the foundation on the north
Speaker 2: side of the house where he thought that maybe of
Speaker 2: significance was the day after the murder, during the autopsy,
Speaker 2: the corner that found that his determination was that she
Speaker 2: died through a fixial strangulation, but also had a severe
Speaker 2: fracture to the right side of her skull that ran
Speaker 2: from the front to the back eight inch skull fracture.
Speaker 2: Another expert had later determined that it was equivalent to
Speaker 2: person falling off a three story building and landing on
Speaker 2: their head. What lou believed is that had to have
Speaker 2: been inflicted such as violent blow, probably had some kind
Speaker 2: of a blunt object. And when he saw that photo
Speaker 2: of the baseball bat near the butler door on the
Speaker 2: north side of the house, he thought that was significant
Speaker 2: for two reasons. The butler door on the morning of
Speaker 2: the twenty six was found to be unlocked, that no
Speaker 2: forced entry. Didn't know if it was unlocked the night
Speaker 2: before when the neighbors, one of the officers unlocked that
Speaker 2: door and left open. But when you go in that
Speaker 2: butler door, lu pointed out that the spiral staircase where
Speaker 2: the note was found was very close to that butler door,
Speaker 2: so he thought that was significant. There's a second baseball
Speaker 2: bat that Luke noticed in the exterior Creansine photos taken
Speaker 2: that morning on the south side of the house. Now,
Speaker 2: the Ramsays were asked, are those baseball bats yours, and
Speaker 2: they said no, neither of the baseball bats were theirs.
Speaker 2: They didn't recognize them. However, they did say it's not
Speaker 2: beyond the possibility that some of the neighbor kids who
Speaker 2: came over and loved to play with Burke and John Benney,
Speaker 2: that they might have brought the baseball bats over there,
Speaker 2: but they thought that they were not part of any
Speaker 2: of the toys that the family owned. Salutha of that
Speaker 2: baseball bat, especially on the north side, could be very significant.
Speaker 3: Let's talk about the immediately the Boulder Police Department and
Speaker 3: their conclusions as to what happened, which informs how they proceed.
Speaker 2: Within four days the case detective and supervisors. But one
Speaker 2: of the detectives, Trump Tom Treheel, was filling out a
Speaker 2: lab request for the Colored Bureau Investigation CBI, and at
Speaker 2: the top this abated twelve thirty of ninety six, so
Speaker 2: four days after the murder. He's filling out the lab
Speaker 2: request form and puts at the top that it is
Speaker 2: John Benny Ramsey is the victim. The suspects are Patsy
Speaker 2: Ramsey and John Ramsey and puts the offense as will
Speaker 2: full kill homicide family. So immediately within forties of the murder,
Speaker 2: the detectives had reached the conclusion that the parents were
Speaker 2: responsible for that murder. And what's tragic is on the
Speaker 2: fifteenth of January nineteen ninety seventh, so within three weeks
Speaker 2: of the murder, the lab report came back on those
Speaker 2: articles that were submitted for biological testing, as well as
Speaker 2: other lab examinations, but the fingernail scrapings that were obtained
Speaker 2: during the autopsy on the twenty seventh of December nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety six, as well as the panties that John Binney
Speaker 2: was wearing identifying DNA that excluded the Ramsey family specifically
Speaker 2: John Ramsey, Burke Ramsey, Patsy Ramsey, a total of ten
Speaker 2: people whose DNA blood was submitted. One of those people
Speaker 2: that's named on that report is Patsy Ramsey. What's said
Speaker 2: is on that same day, December twenty or December thirtieth,
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six, the Bolder Police Department is holding a
Speaker 2: press conference and during the press conference, the Public Information
Speaker 2: Office for PIO makes the statement that they had obtained
Speaker 2: blood samples from all of the Ramsey family except for
Speaker 2: Patsy Ramsey, and the PIO makes some kind of a
Speaker 2: comment about perhaps she was too distraught to comply. Well,
Speaker 2: that's a lie. That is not true, and they knew
Speaker 2: it was not true because the detective who's in charge
Speaker 2: of the evidence has just submitted a form with all
Speaker 2: of their names submitted the biological samples. One or two
Speaker 2: possibilities either of the pio just misspoke and it's an
Speaker 2: inverting mistake, or it was a deliberate intentional distortion of
Speaker 2: the truth. Now, had it been an unintentional mistake, somebody
Speaker 2: should have stepped forward, either during that press conference or
Speaker 2: immediately after and say, wait a minute, we have to
Speaker 2: do a correction. You know, we did have her sample,
Speaker 2: but that was not done. So it implies that this
Speaker 2: was a deliberate, intentional attempt to use the media and
Speaker 2: provide this information to the public in an effort to
Speaker 2: coerce a confession or statement or cooperation from the parents.
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Speaker 3: we talked about the philosophy that Loosmith had, and of
Speaker 3: course subsequently you have is that the belief that the
Speaker 3: perpetrator brings things to the crime scene and then takes
Speaker 3: things away from the crime scene. Tell us what Loosmith
Speaker 3: investigated in terms of what was left and what more
Speaker 3: importantly the killer took with them.
Speaker 2: Well, Luke pointed out was there were several items of
Speaker 2: physical evidence left at the crime scene that had to
Speaker 2: have been brought by the suspect into the home. Specifically,
Speaker 2: the black duct tape that was found over John Binney's mouth.
Speaker 2: It had been torn on both sides, is about a
Speaker 2: four or five inch strip of duct tape and instead
Speaker 2: being cut, it was torn. Well, that's important is if
Speaker 2: you could find the role of duct tape that was torn,
Speaker 2: that was used before and after that piece was torn,
Speaker 2: you could make those together. But nowhere in the Ramsey
Speaker 2: home were there any black duct tape rolls. Ever, Secondly,
Speaker 2: was the white parachute cord known as pairchord five point
Speaker 2: fifty that was used by the suspect to tye John
Speaker 2: Benny up their wrists with slip knot and then also
Speaker 2: a separatist used to fashion the garat that she was
Speaker 2: strangled with. There was no other parasite cord found anywhere
Speaker 2: in the home. That was another item that had been
Speaker 2: brought in. The other thing that Lou did was he
Speaker 2: showed that there were two marks woing patterns, one on
Speaker 2: the right side at John Beni's cheek on the right
Speaker 2: side low or ear, and the other one on her back,
Speaker 2: and Lou believed those were made by a stun gun,
Speaker 2: where there was no stun gun in the possession of
Speaker 2: the Ramses. They had never bought one, they didn't know
Speaker 2: anybody who owned a stun gun. There was not one
Speaker 2: found in the crime scene or anywhere in the home
Speaker 2: by the police. So that was another item that Lou
Speaker 2: said had been brought into the crime scene by the suspect.
Speaker 2: And he also took that item with him when he left.
Speaker 2: But the most important thing that he took with him
Speaker 2: lip point out was his DNA. He left DNA both
Speaker 2: into the fingernails on the panties, and then later in
Speaker 2: two thousand and eight, another lab report verified that there
Speaker 2: was touch or trace DNA that was compatible with the
Speaker 2: DNA on the finger nails and the peonties that was
Speaker 2: found on John Beanese Long John, so she was wearing
Speaker 2: for pajama bottom. So there's three sources of DNA that
Speaker 2: was compatible with one another in two thousand and eight
Speaker 2: that excluded the family. It also came back and showed
Speaker 2: it was mail DNA.
Speaker 3: You also mentioned that there was a bootprint left by
Speaker 3: the body in that wine cellar.
Speaker 2: Yes, Lou thought that was significant because this high tech
Speaker 2: bootprint was right next to John Benese's body, and it
Speaker 2: was very crisp, very clean, so it didn't look like
Speaker 2: it had been there very long. But all of the
Speaker 2: first responders, the lab personnel who had been there, their bootprint,
Speaker 2: their footwear was checked, as was all of the footwear
Speaker 2: and the Ramsey household, and there was no high tech
Speaker 2: footwear being worn by any of those people. So loud
Speaker 2: their eyes that it's probable that the suspect too entered
Speaker 2: the home it was wearing high tech boots.
Speaker 3: Now let's get to the explanation of despite what Lou
Speaker 3: Smith has already found what already has been determined about
Speaker 3: the DNA itself, basically excluding the entire Ramsey family. And
Speaker 3: this idea that Lou points out all of these things
Speaker 3: that were not found. Any evidence was found of duct
Speaker 3: tape or parachute cord, or high tech boots or stun
Speaker 3: gun or any evidence to point that the Ramseys had
Speaker 3: anything to do with the assault itself. In terms of
Speaker 3: all the things we're missing from the home, it makes
Speaker 3: no sense where they would have gone to if they
Speaker 3: were in that home and it.
Speaker 2: Was searched thoroughly.
Speaker 3: Let's talk about how Lou wants to make a presentation
Speaker 3: to the prosecutor in this case and how a grand
Speaker 3: jury was impaneled and the results.
Speaker 2: Yes, Lou was adamant that the grand jury should hear
Speaker 2: all of the evidence in this case and not just
Speaker 2: certain parts of the evidence that would omit any possibilit
Speaker 2: of an intruder theory intruder coming to the home. So
Speaker 2: what Lou had to do was this was right after
Speaker 2: he left the Boulder DA's office, after the grand jury
Speaker 2: was impaneled by the special Prosecutors, and Lou wrote a
Speaker 2: letter to the grand jury foreman asking permission to come
Speaker 2: in and speak and show some of his slide presentation
Speaker 2: to the grand juror. And he said in his letter
Speaker 2: that there's evidence here of an intruder that needs to
Speaker 2: be shown. Instead, the special prosecutor for the grand jury
Speaker 2: contacted Lou and said you're not going to be allowed
Speaker 2: to testify for the grand jury and that we want
Speaker 2: all of your case reports and the slide presentation back.
Speaker 2: You shouldn't have any of that information Lou had to hire.
Speaker 2: Didn't hire that. He Atteamed Legal Services through two attorneys
Speaker 2: pro bono. That they didn't charge him for this, but
Speaker 2: they represented Lou and argued that the information Lou had
Speaker 2: he didn't take anything from the Boulder Police or the
Speaker 2: Diaism has already had that he just had copies of
Speaker 2: the autopsy report, copies of the grand scene photos, copies
Speaker 2: of different documents police reports that came from their file
Speaker 2: in the CBI reports for example. So what the decision
Speaker 2: was Since these were already in the possession of the
Speaker 2: Boulder Police, the decision was made that he would be
Speaker 2: allowed to testify. He asked for three hours and only
Speaker 2: gave him two hours. Not sure which slides he got
Speaker 2: to present and that limited amount of time, but he
Speaker 2: did get to fulfill his request to testify. He later
Speaker 2: told me that it was a very difficult, challenging examination.
Speaker 2: In presentation, he said he was never more rudily treated
Speaker 2: by an attorney or by members of the grand jury
Speaker 2: as he experienced during that session.
Speaker 3: Now, what is stated in that grand jury decision.
Speaker 2: The grand jury transcripts have never been least and we've tried,
Speaker 2: as our team or sent family team to obtain them.
Speaker 2: Different attorneys have attempted to attain copies of the grand
Speaker 2: jury transcripts to no avail. They've never been shown to
Speaker 2: the public, which which is wrong. We should know what
Speaker 2: the grand jury transcripts say. What we were told was
Speaker 2: there were indictments against both Patsy Ramsey and John Ramsey.
Speaker 2: For some it wasn't for homicide. It was some lesser
Speaker 2: crime will fold something about I don't have it here
Speaker 2: in front of me, but subjecting the child to dangerous
Speaker 2: situation or something like that. Those charges were never filed,
Speaker 2: so that grand jury returned to true Bill, which is
Speaker 2: why Luke could talk about it. But the parents were
Speaker 2: never charged with those crimes, primarily in lowse belief was
Speaker 2: that they couldn't be proven. In fact, the district attorney
Speaker 2: said during a press conference that the grand jury has
Speaker 2: concluded their investigation, but there's no evidence to substantiate any
Speaker 2: wrongful doing. But what also, what the DA knew was
Speaker 2: that the parents were represented by major law firm out
Speaker 2: of Denver, and no doubt the district Attorney knew their
Speaker 2: star witness was going to be Lou Smith, and this
Speaker 2: was a case that against appearance, they could not be proven.
Speaker 2: But the statute limitations expired after three years. So that's
Speaker 2: another reason why we think the grand jury transcripts should
Speaker 2: be released.
Speaker 3: Now you write about what happens afterwards, and you go
Speaker 3: to February twenty third, two thousand and a Perfect Murder,
Speaker 3: Perfect Town TV miniseries broadcast by CBS. Tell us a
Speaker 3: little bit about this and why you've included some of
Speaker 3: this information.
Speaker 2: There's been several documentaries, articles, books like mine that have
Speaker 2: been written. One of the ones that did get a
Speaker 2: lot of exposure was Lawrence Schiller's Perfect Murder, Perfect Town,
Speaker 2: and in that one there were different people, including Lou Smith,
Speaker 2: who had a major role that was played by an
Speaker 2: actor in this case, Chris christ Jefferson was selected to
Speaker 2: portray Lou Smith, and as he was going in to
Speaker 2: be filmed for this role, Chris Christoffers and wanted to
Speaker 2: meet Lou and flew into Colorado Springs. I was there
Speaker 2: when Lou met with Chris Christofferson. We spent the day together.
Speaker 2: It was an interesting experience, and that documentary didn't have
Speaker 2: a lot of success when it was released.
Speaker 3: You read about the continuing effort by Lou Smith, and
Speaker 3: then your eventual involvement. Tell us a little bit about
Speaker 3: that and how the circumstances in which all that happens,
Speaker 3: and until we can get to the point where we
Speaker 3: talk about the extraordinary efforts that Lou continues to do
Speaker 3: to prove his stun gun theory.
Speaker 2: When Lou left the DA's office, he did take all
Speaker 2: of his investigati files, notes, his computers that contained a
Speaker 2: lot of the documents and photos with him, and then
Speaker 2: he continued on his own to investigate this case, attempting
Speaker 2: to identify that the suspect. One of the things that
Speaker 2: he did after he left the DA's office was to
Speaker 2: continue to try to prove that it was a stun
Speaker 2: gun that was used, and the importance of that cannot
Speaker 2: be understated or overstated because and lose mind that went
Speaker 2: to prove the intent of the killer was immobilized not
Speaker 2: to kill, but to mobilize the victim in the home,
Speaker 2: which goes with the kidnet for ransom intent. So Lou
Speaker 2: ended up doing to prove that it was a stun
Speaker 2: gun was He purchased an adult sized pig, a full
Speaker 2: grown pig with a coroner out of the Denver metro
Speaker 2: area and the pig euthanized and then applied the stun gun.
Speaker 2: He found a stun gun of the same make and
Speaker 2: model that he theorized was used and used the pig
Speaker 2: to recreate the stun gun marks, which came back identical
Speaker 2: to what was shown on John Benay's back. The distance
Speaker 2: between the two probes on the stun gun is is important.
Speaker 2: Measures three point five centimans between the two probes, which
Speaker 2: did identify a airtaser stun gun that had been used,
Speaker 2: and Lou was able to acquire that exact model.
Speaker 3: Now tell us about the effort that Lou does to
Speaker 3: still approach Boulder Police Department, especially given his focus on
Speaker 3: this DNA. He believes that the ramses have been exonerated
Speaker 3: by virtue of this DNA and technology advancements make Lou
Speaker 3: believe that this should be definitely tested. Tell us about
Speaker 3: his efforts to approach the Boulder Police Department and offer
Speaker 3: his services.
Speaker 2: Yes, throughout the rest of his life until he passed
Speaker 2: away in twenty ten, Lou continued even though he wasn't
Speaker 2: paid to be on the DA task Force any longer,
Speaker 2: on his own time and own experience. He wasn't working
Speaker 2: for financial gain. He was working really to help solve
Speaker 2: this case. And so he continued to send emails and
Speaker 2: what he called darts. And he would like send a
Speaker 2: little dart into the Boulder Police to say, you know
Speaker 2: this person here, their DNA needs to be checked. And
Speaker 2: he kept on his spreadsheet of eight hundred and eighty
Speaker 2: three entries what four tier systems, So as he learned
Speaker 2: more about an individual, they would move up to the
Speaker 2: top tier. So he continued until he passed away, feeding
Speaker 2: this information to the mystery or to the police department
Speaker 2: and trying to get them to follow some of these leads.
Speaker 2: The problem he had was that the parents still remained
Speaker 2: under the umbrella of suspicion with Boulder Police detectives and
Speaker 2: any time that Low or anyone else would try to say,
Speaker 2: you know, maybe these other people should be looked at.
Speaker 2: There was just this pushback from the Boulder police. We
Speaker 2: felt that too. As a team. After Lou had passed away,
Speaker 2: our Smith family team met with the Boulder law enforcement
Speaker 2: on tow occasions, and we felt the same thing. Every
Speaker 2: time we brought up somebody that should be pursued. There
Speaker 2: was just it was met with a lack of Indian
Speaker 2: entry at all.
Speaker 3: You're right about the extraordinary relationship that was developed between
Speaker 3: John Ramsey, Patsy Ramsey, and Lou Smith, and also that
Speaker 3: you were able to meet with Patsy once and meet
Speaker 3: with John as well.
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm not sure why. I was still the sheriff
Speaker 2: of bel Passo County and there was a meeting in
Speaker 2: Carl Springs with an attorney who Lou was very close to,
Speaker 2: and John and Patsy Ramsey were both attending that meeting,
Speaker 2: and Lou pulled me aside and he says, hey, John,
Speaker 2: I want you to go to this meeting with me
Speaker 2: because I want you to meet John and Patsy Ramsey.
Speaker 2: I said, well, I'll be happy to do that. I
Speaker 2: didn't realize that would be the only time I got
Speaker 2: to meet Patsy, because shortly after that is when she
Speaker 2: cancer returned, and then she died shortly thereafter. Lou had
Speaker 2: established a very close relationship with John and Patsy for
Speaker 2: two reasons. Not only were they grieving parents and had
Speaker 2: first hand information on this case, but Lou also wanted
Speaker 2: to make sure that he kept that lit of communication
Speaker 2: open so that he could on a person of interest.
Speaker 2: He could call them and say, you know, was this
Speaker 2: person here ever employed by Access Graphics, John's Ramsey's business,
Speaker 2: So he purposely kept that line of communication open. When
Speaker 2: Patsy was diagnosed with cancer and was in hospice in Atlanta,
Speaker 2: Lou flew from Color Springs to Atlanta to spend a
Speaker 2: little bit more time with her about this case, hoping
Speaker 2: some information might come out that you know, would have
Speaker 2: been lost. So he documented very carefully each of those
Speaker 2: meetings that he had with Patsy Ramsey and also with
Speaker 2: John Ramsey.
Speaker 3: Because he says, as an opportunity to stop for a
Speaker 3: second for these messages, the idea of what was learned.
Speaker 3: You talk about the best practices and lessons learned with
Speaker 3: this particular case, but you also were so involved with
Speaker 3: Lucieneth that you were asked by the family to do
Speaker 3: the eulogy and very important you include what you did
Speaker 3: have to say about this very important figure in your life.
Speaker 2: Yes, I was honored to be asked to represent Lou's
Speaker 2: other homicide detective partners, to include Dave Spencer, who had
Speaker 2: a major role after Lou passed away and trying to
Speaker 2: continue this best friend and partner's work Loup and the
Speaker 2: book is dedicated to Blue Spent and Dave Spencer, and
Speaker 2: without Dave's support, I don't know that we'd ever gotten
Speaker 2: as far as we have. Dave passed away also to
Speaker 2: cancer on the twenty four year anniversary of John Bedney's
Speaker 2: death in Simber twenty sixth, twenty twenty and left a
Speaker 2: real void with our team, and it was one of
Speaker 2: the other reasons why I decided I needed to get
Speaker 2: this book written. And I relied so heavily on day
Speaker 2: with his thoroughness of documenting or interview surveillances or reports
Speaker 2: that when he was gone, right before he passed away,
Speaker 2: in fact, our last based based conversation, he asked me
Speaker 2: to go over to his house and pick up his
Speaker 2: notes in his case file he had a three ring
Speaker 2: binder that had put together, and so I decided that
Speaker 2: I needed to make concentrated effort getting this case oxen
Speaker 2: as best I could in this book. For me knowing
Speaker 2: that you know, as this may be my best opportunity
Speaker 2: to do that as well.
Speaker 3: You chronicle that Lou was adamant he would be involved
Speaker 3: with this right to his nine day and so he
Speaker 3: made appearances on with Barbara Walters an interview and Larry King.
Speaker 3: And despite those appearances and all of the incredible evidence
Speaker 3: that he was able to bring forth in those interviews,
Speaker 3: still the narrative was not what loose Nitt would.
Speaker 2: Have liked, was it? It was not. It seemed like
Speaker 2: whenever he tried to bring this evidence out through media,
Speaker 2: Katie Currie or Larry King or Barbara Walters, the interviewers
Speaker 2: certainly understood Lou's credibility, his credentials, what he was trying
Speaker 2: to communicate, But Boulder Police were continually resistant of any
Speaker 2: possible intruder theory despite all of the physical evidence, and
Speaker 2: we've experienced that to our team. There was another reason
Speaker 2: I felt that the book need to be written, because
Speaker 2: I'm not so sure that Boulder Police really understand their
Speaker 2: case all that well. I think that there's been so
Speaker 2: much misinformation, disinformation and such. It's such a complex case,
Speaker 2: with over one hundred thousand reports. I think that there
Speaker 2: may be some misperceptions or misinformation within the Boulder law
Speaker 2: enforcement community. Do they know that this DNA excluded the family?
Speaker 2: Was that report well known? I know Lou was still
Speaker 2: at the District Attorney's office in Boulder when it came
Speaker 2: to light, but that was like six or seven months
Speaker 2: after it was turned over to the police. So has
Speaker 2: something happened to some of the evidence instance some of
Speaker 2: the reports. How retrievable is that information? For example, Lou
Speaker 2: knew that there were a total five forensic handwriting examiners
Speaker 2: who looked at the note that the rantsing modes and
Speaker 2: had varying results. Some said that they couldn't exclude Patsy
Speaker 2: or one in particular said, and I think this gets
Speaker 2: misinterpreted that she may have written the note, and then
Speaker 2: thatness represented that she did write the note, But there
Speaker 2: were other examiners who said they couldn't confirm that she
Speaker 2: had written note. But there was a really important one
Speaker 2: that Lou had identified. A friensic examiner who gave the
Speaker 2: friensic is expert opinion that Patsy Ramsey was not the
Speaker 2: author of the note. She did not write the note.
Speaker 2: But this is another thing that I think Blue brought
Speaker 2: out that other people just either didn't know or ignored,
Speaker 2: was that the Ramseys both took and passed polygraph examinations
Speaker 2: by one of the leading polygraph operators in the US
Speaker 2: at the time. And one of the questions that was
Speaker 2: asked both of them was do you know who murdered
Speaker 2: John Benie? And they said no when they passed that question.
Speaker 2: But a specific question that went to Patsy was did
Speaker 2: you write the note? And she said no and passed
Speaker 2: that part of the examination that results that were validated
Speaker 2: by an independent polygraph operator. Now I know people say, well,
Speaker 2: you know, polygraphs can't be used in court, and that's
Speaker 2: why they're not admissible. They had both of the parents
Speaker 2: failed the polygraph exam examination, everybody would have said, let's see,
Speaker 2: you know, that shows that they were involved. Now, as
Speaker 2: a detective, we use polygraphs and the results of the
Speaker 2: polygraphs fairly extensively on major cases. But what we always
Speaker 2: knew was, well, you have to confirm what the polygraph
Speaker 2: says with a physical evidence. So when we have forensic
Speaker 2: examiners such as what lew had found out or he's
Speaker 2: now retired a US Secret Service and writing expert who
Speaker 2: said Patsy did not write the note, and then she
Speaker 2: passes a polygraph and she not write the note, how
Speaker 2: much of that information is known too bolder unforment and
Speaker 2: known to the public. And those are things that lou
Speaker 2: tried to communicate through the various appearances that he did
Speaker 2: on different shows and TV shows and through documentaries, but
Speaker 2: it was ignored it. So what I've tried to do
Speaker 2: is continue lose work and continue to get the truth
Speaker 2: out there in the written form, in publishing some of
Speaker 2: his slide presentations to give references not only not just
Speaker 2: an opinion that he had, but what's the original source,
Speaker 2: what's the physical covenant? Show us?
Speaker 3: You also talk about really and I like to ask you,
Speaker 3: how do you is you did make this presentation to
Speaker 3: bold a police department with your team, with this incredible
Speaker 3: amount of evidence, how do you explain especially the resistance
Speaker 3: to retest DNA utilizing new genetic genealogy. You say it's
Speaker 3: just a phone call that all you would have to
Speaker 3: do is make a phone call.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I can't explain that. As our team, our
Speaker 2: spent family team, the Boulder DA and two DETECTIVESPD came
Speaker 2: to that meeting. It was hosted in the DA's office.
Speaker 2: Michael Doherty is the District Attorney still and we thought
Speaker 2: there was a fairly positive meeting. We left them information
Speaker 2: that was actionable, but then we never heard anything. We'd
Speaker 2: offer to come up and go through lose slide presentation.
Speaker 2: That offer was ignored. So what we did is we
Speaker 2: took the initiative and I sent a meeting was back
Speaker 2: to the Boulder DA in the police requesting a second meeting.
Speaker 2: The District Attorney did return that email and he said
Speaker 2: that any future meeting or invest would have to be
Speaker 2: coordinated through Commander Tom Trehill of the Boulder Police Department.
Speaker 2: I schedule the meeting if I have, if I'm available,
Speaker 2: I'll try to stop by. So the second meeting was
Speaker 2: at the Boulder Police Department with Commander TREHILLO Commander Gossip
Speaker 2: and the District Attorney was able to and during that meeting.
Speaker 2: This was during COVID, so we kept our team presence
Speaker 2: in a month just Cindy Smith Marlon and I were
Speaker 2: in a parent representatives, but we did offer to come
Speaker 2: back up and go through Lose Slight presentation in detail.
Speaker 2: We offered to give them as hard copies of all
Speaker 2: six hundred and thirty two slides. We gave them actionable information.
Speaker 2: We gave them our top twenty list of persons of interest.
Speaker 2: We even list of the independent Eliminada throughout DNA collection
Speaker 2: testing efforts. I think there was probably eight or nine
Speaker 2: on that confidential list at that time. We shared with
Speaker 2: them the other people that we were full into their
Speaker 2: cooperation and their trust, and they refused any future meetings.
Speaker 2: They just completely cut off all phone email exchanges, to
Speaker 2: the point that after some time, when Commander Trihio refused
Speaker 2: to return my email's over phone calls, I put a
Speaker 2: cheat Navis Herald and specifically asked for a meeting with her,
Speaker 2: and she wouln't even give me the courtesy of a
Speaker 2: return phone.
Speaker 3: Now, despite that, the Smith Family team continues, what is
Speaker 3: your goal with this book and what is your goal
Speaker 3: with this investigation that continues?
Speaker 2: What our Smith Family team hopes to do, and this
Speaker 2: is Lou's life, is to communicate through the physical evidence
Speaker 2: the unniable proved that the no member of the Ramsey
Speaker 2: family was involved in the murder of John Bedet. One
Speaker 2: point two is that this case, it's still solvable. The
Speaker 2: DNA that was there, the genetic markers can rule people out,
Speaker 2: not just the Ramsey family. It can be used in
Speaker 2: a variety of ways. Now we don't know that the
Speaker 2: state of the DNA evidence because your police won't release.
Speaker 2: We do have the genetic markers that lou had. Initially
Speaker 2: there were ten genetic workers in ninety seven. Since then
Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight are additional, so there's at
Speaker 2: least fourteen genetic markers.
Speaker 1: But there are.
Speaker 2: Advances being made every day in DNA technolology with private labs.
Speaker 2: When we last met with Boulder Police, we gave them
Speaker 2: the names, phone numbers, email addresses of three private labs
Speaker 2: that were willing to step forward and help with the investigation.
Speaker 2: We've stayed in touch with those three private labs. They
Speaker 2: have never been contacted. Our team even offered to pay
Speaker 2: for the testing through our goalfundme page, and that request
Speaker 2: has been denied as well. One of the other things
Speaker 2: that happened in December December sixth, the last year of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, Older Police disclosed a media release of
Speaker 2: the results of an internal investigation that showed that Detective
Speaker 2: Tom Treheo and four other investigators were being disciplined for
Speaker 2: a misconduct and specifically not investigating or thoroughly investigating their
Speaker 2: case load. They did not say that it was the
Speaker 2: John Binney case, but there was discipline to include Commander
Speaker 2: Treheo being removed from the supervisor over the investigations division
Speaker 2: and put on midnights in patrol. So we hope to
Speaker 2: do and after that meeting, I sent another meeting request
Speaker 2: to the police chief as well as the DA and
Speaker 2: the commanders involved with well Or Police on the investigation,
Speaker 2: asking for a meeting and gave them to the end
Speaker 2: of January of twenty twenty three to respond. They've never
Speaker 2: never called, never never accepted art or requests for a meeting.
Speaker 2: Helped share within the evidence that clearly shows that the
Speaker 2: Ramsey family are not involved in that this DNA can
Speaker 2: be used to eliminate additional persons of interest and hopefully
Speaker 2: identify who the friends.
Speaker 3: I want to thank you so much John Wesley Anderson
Speaker 3: for coming on and talking about your book. Lou and
Speaker 3: John Bennet, A legendary Lahman's quest to solve a Beauty
Speaker 3: Queen's Murder. I want to applaud you for this book
Speaker 3: and for your extraordinary effort and all obviously chronicling the
Speaker 3: incredible story of legendary Lou Detective Lou Smith.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Dan.
Speaker 3: Do you have a website that people might refer to
Speaker 3: tell us about that?
Speaker 2: Thank you? Yes, I have probably web site for this
Speaker 2: case is my publisher, Wildbluepress dot com. I have a
Speaker 2: separate website that does not have anywhere near the information
Speaker 2: that the publishers do. My website is jwander dot com.
Speaker 2: My initials JW A N d er dot com.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, John Wesley Anderson, Lou and John Benet,
Speaker 3: A legendary Lahman's Quest to solve a Beauty Queen's Murder.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for this interview, and you have
Speaker 3: a great evening.
Speaker 2: Good night,