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Speaker 1: Music is the most abstract of the art, especially just music,

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like when you hear a choir, like when you hear

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choral music, it's not as abstract because it definitely connects

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to It connects to meaning and to know the way

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that we experience storytelling or But when you have just

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music that is only sounds that are playing against each other,

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why do you think we care? Like, what is it

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about what's happening that makes us pay attention?

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Speaker 2: Looking at music as a experience of acoustics, you could

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start with the understanding of music having its own internal

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balance of order. Some would say this is the overtone

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series where certain pitches are arranged naturally without any manipulation,

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with certain intervals and colors, and based on that raw

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experience of science, we can extract from that different melodies

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and or rhythms.

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Speaker 3: And it's something that's just there. It's just exists.

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Speaker 2: And this is what fascinated the what fascinated the ancients

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when it came to music, And I think a lot

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of it has to do with the order it brings

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to us internally.

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Speaker 3: It's an ordering and experience.

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Speaker 2: And that's why when they're let's look at film score,

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when you see a thriller and something's about to happen,

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there's more cacophony, there's more dissonance, and then when something

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comes to order, you feel more resolution in those moments.

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Speaker 4: This is Jonathan Fechel. Welcome to the symbolic world.

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Speaker 1: So hello everyone, I am here with Nicholas Reeves is

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a musician.

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Speaker 4: He's a church musician.

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Speaker 1: Uh he he has taught at Saint Latimirs Seminary. He's

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also on the faculty of Adelphi University, and he's known

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in Orthodox circles. He's been recommended to me by Richard Rowland,

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who said, you know, Jonathan, since you don't understand music, you.

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Speaker 4: Should probably talk to this person.

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Speaker 1: And so uh so, you know, I have to be

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honest with you, like it's a little bit of a

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that we're going to jump into the fray because we

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both of us are in the same situation where Nicholas

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was also told by people, Hey, you should talk to

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this guy, Jonathan Pajoe, I guess and so uh and

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so we'll get we'll get into the conversation and hopefully

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we'll he'll be able to help me understand a little more.

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What's the relationship between music and symbolism, you know, and

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help me kind of refine my understanding of what its

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function is in the world.

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Speaker 4: So, Nicholas, thanks for coming on.

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Speaker 3: It's a pleasure to be here. Let's see what happens.

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Speaker 4: Let's see what happens.

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Speaker 1: So maybe tell people just a little bit more about

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your about your background, about what you do, how you

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got to where you are, and then we can move

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from there. I.

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Speaker 3: As you said, I am a musician. I have.

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Speaker 2: Been trained in classical compositions for orchestra, chamber music, choirs, etc.

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I am also a working church musician. I have a

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church choir on Long Island in the Orthodox Church, and

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I taught.

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Speaker 3: At San Vladimir's as you said. And I also do.

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Speaker 2: Workshops where I prepare church choirs to get ready for

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certain seasons Pasca, Holy Week, the festal cycle, whatever that

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may be, or just how to improve in general. And

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I approach it from a pedagogical methodology of starting with

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simple materials and the choir builds on those skills. So

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I have my hands in mini pockets. I also write

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electronic music that incorporates sound sources and found sounds and

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put something together. And I really am all over the

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place in terms of media, multimedia, using projections, using sound

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sources that are sampling sounds, and or it's just acoustic music,

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absolutely no interaction with electronics whatsoever. So I putting sound together,

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juxtaposing sound. I think that's the best way to talk

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about composition. That's that's what it is, and if there's

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any meaning in that. I saw this beautiful quote from

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Lennard Bernstein that we shouldn't listen to music to understand things.

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We have contradictions, and in between those contradictions we find meaning.

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And I very much agree with that perspective that you

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have in music, contradictions of you know, dynamics, loud, soft, tempo,

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fast and slow, everything in between, beautiful mo moments, caustic moments,

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and juxtaposing those ideas is in some ways a reflection

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of our human experience. And I see music more and

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more as a handprint, like in Lasco in France, in

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those caves, those cave paintings that go back so many

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centuries where you can see people's handprints on the walls,

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and that it's a part of them in the artwork,

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that the symbolism in the artwork isn't just representing an animal.

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They saw or a tree, but it's actually their interpretation

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as humans of what they saw, and I think that's

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very important to understand. It's an abstraction from a collective

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experience that it almost feels like it needs to be done.

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I mean, why else would they do this. It doesn't

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help their hunting or their gathering or their survival, but

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maybe it helped them understand better who they were as

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a tribe or is a small society. It provides some

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type of mental coherence, and I think we can extend

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that today. Whether it's a rock concert, whether it's a

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classical concert, there's something that we desire in terms of

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understanding ourselves. Whether it's through words or whether it's through

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sounds or sounds with words, it helps us to make

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sense of what's happening because people still want it. You know,

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people pay a lot of money to go to these experiences,

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whether it's Coachella or Byroid to hear Wagner's operas.

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Speaker 3: It's a huge investment of time.

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Speaker 2: So there's some need that people are harping onto or

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holding on to, and I think a lot of that

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has to do with the logic and the coherence that

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music provides.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that people have said in some

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ways is that music is the most abstract of the arts,

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in the sense that especially just music, like when you

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hear a choir, like when you hear choral music, it's

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not as abstract because it definitely connects to It definitely

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connects to meaning and to you know, the way that

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we experience storytelling or but when you have just music

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that is only sounds that are playing against each other,

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you know, what do you think? Why do you think

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we care?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 1: What is it about that's what's happening that makes us

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pay attention?

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Speaker 3: That's a really good question.

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Speaker 2: I think the experiential perspective is a good starting point

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because it's all the adjectives that begin with our experience

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of music, and then our understanding maybe comes later. I

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was moved, it was beautiful, it was riviting, you know,

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some type of descriptor is how people explain or make

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sense of their music sperience. And it's a pretty mysterious

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thing having sound waves come together in a certain arrangement,

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and how it impresses upon our mind and some would

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say even our souls, and how that makes such an

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impression on us who we are, Whether it's with words

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like you said, with a choir where there's more definite meaning,

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or whether it's through instrumental music.

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Speaker 3: I think.

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Speaker 2: Looking at music as a experience of acoustics, you could

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start with the understanding of music having its own internal

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balance and order. Some would say this is the overtone series,

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where certain pitches are arranged naturally without any manipulation, with

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certain intervals and colors, and based on that raw experience

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of science, we can extract from that different melodies and

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or rhythms. And it's something that's just there, it's just exists.

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And this is what has fascinated the what fascinated the

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ancients when it came to music, of how if you

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take a string and pluck it on a harp and

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then divide the octave, you get the same sound up

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and octave. And they were just fascinated with this experience

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of sound. And I think a lot of it has

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to do with the order it brings to us internally.

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It's an ordering and experience, and that's why when they're

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let's look at film score. When you see a thriller

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and something's about to happen, the music gets more coponic,

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there's more cacophony, there's more.

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Speaker 3: Dissonance, and then when.

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Speaker 2: Something comes to order, you feel more resolution in those moments,

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and we respond to that. It makes sense to us,

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and I think that's our extraction and our interpretation of

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the overtone series natural sound sounds we hear nature. Some

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people are very influenced by bird sounds, sounds of other animals,

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sounds of water. You know, it's it's our interpretation of

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the order that we see around us and how we

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try and incorporate that into some type of communal event.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: My intuition has always been that it's that it all is.

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Can I say that it's all is a kind of

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downstream from the human voice or the experience of the

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human voice, because the music of let's say, the sound

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of water, let's say, or the sound of I don't know,

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of branch falling in the forest. All these sounds, they

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they don't provide I mean, let me go down the

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stream and see what you think. But they don't provide

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order in the same way that the human voice does.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: So the human voice, it provides you with for example,

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it's a way into the other person, right, it's a

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way in as I'm standing in front of someone, there

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are different ways into that person's conscious experience that I

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because I don't I'm not in their experience. I hear

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their voice. I can recognize intentionality, emotion. There's a kind

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of drama to the human voice that will create fear

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in me, like if someone yells at me, or someone's whispering,

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or if someone you know, or the sound of your mother,

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like this high voice that has a certain thing to it,

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the sound of your father that is a deeper voice,

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it's maybe more protective. More so, there are these different

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things that we experience and I and I've always wondered if.

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Speaker 4: Music is a is a.

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Speaker 1: Fine tuning of that or a you know, a kind

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of pushing these these tendency that we that we have

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to learn the human voice into into patterns that are

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hyper versions of that. Because one of my one of

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my contentions is that that's what stories are. Stories are

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basically taking events. Let's say you have events in your

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life that are meaningful to you, like you have a

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love story in your life, and then what a what

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a story does is that because amongst your love story,

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there's all this other stuff going on, right, You're going

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to sleep, you're eating, you're working, you're you're you're doing

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other things. But there is a line that goes through

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that love story. And when you pull it together and

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then you can tell, you can say it, you can say,

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you know, here's the one and hour, one hour and

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a half version of a love story. Then people are

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completely captivated because what it does it pulls things together

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and that it contracts them in a way that is

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a hyper experience, hyper version of experience they normally have.

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And so that's what I always wondered. I mean, this

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is my my I'm sure other people have thought similar things,

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that that is what music is.

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Speaker 4: That's why we care about it, because it.

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Speaker 1: From a phenomenological point of view, because in some ways

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it is a abstracted or contracted like it's like a

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hyperversion of our experience of the human of human interaction

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with voice.

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Speaker 2: So these are all very interesting points, so that I

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want to explore more. There was a Babylonian tablet from

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thousands of years ago, and some may consider that to

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be the first notation of music, and it's the notation

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of vocal music. And what's interesting about that is it

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is a texted piece of music. Obviously because it's for

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the voice and for anything to be written down.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure in that time.

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Speaker 2: Period it had to be worth it because of the

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media we're so expensive to use, and only there were

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a certain class of people who actually write down things.

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So it must have been that important for the society

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that they thought that they needed to document it somehow.

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And you see this throughout the centuries of the documentation

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of music, not all of it, but there's a lot

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of it that is vocal, and not just sacred music,

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secular music too. And your point about entering into the

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mind of the other is a fascinating point of departure

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because it helps you to it's about understanding. Yes, it's

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part of a conversation, but the conversation cannot really move

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forward without understanding. So when you have someone literally voice

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his or her thoughts in a vocal context with lyrics,

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then you're able to appreciate the perspective more concretely. But

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then you talked about the compression, it's almost like it's extract,

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vanilla extract of the human experience. You know, you just

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take the most interesting parts or intense parts and put

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it together in a very condensed amount of time, and

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you know, even will allarge work like a Beethoven symphony,

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you still feel the compression. There's so much intensity that

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happens from the first note all the way to the

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last note, and it does feel like extract of life, order, society, balance, dissonance, consonants, sorrow, joy,

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whatever may be.

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Speaker 3: I mean these are very general concepts, but.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that vocal music is very important because

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of its meaning. And then the idea that you could

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actually enter into someone else's frame of mind is part

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of the mystery of I guess speech. And then you

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enter in someone else's mind by a musical means where

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it almost feels elevated.

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Speaker 5: Hi, this is Sarah from Hamilton, and I'm very happy

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to announce my first course with Symbolic World Scripture the

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Key to Reality. Over the span of five weeks, we

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will look at the scripture your own vision of reality

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through the lens of the Temple. We will see how

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all the details of scripture orbit around the person of

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Jesus Christ, the eternal word of God and archetype of

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the world. And we will see how that Christological vision

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firmly Earth's in place the concrete details of Israel's Torah

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and story. Through that lens, you will come to see

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how meaning and matter intersect and intertwine, not only in

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the text of scripture, but in the very tapestry of

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reality unveiled by the Bible.

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Speaker 2: If you I've done some experiences, sorry, some experiments with

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the human voice where I'll take a word or a

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sentence and I'll stretch it out with a computer program

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for a very very very very very long amount of time.

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And what's interesting, you start to hear when you stretch

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out human speech. It starts to become pitch oriented, hear

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distinct pitches because we're speaking so quickly that we have

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so many pitches occurring while we communicate to each other

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that it's hard to pinpoint anyone. If you were to

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really elongate each phoning, you could sort of swim in them.

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There's so much sound there. And while music is a

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compression of the human experience, it's also entering into a

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different timeline where the sonic effect of it is almost

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the opposite, where it's time slowed down, slow motion. It's

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as if you could take one emotion and just dwell

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on that for thirty minutes or twenty minutes or fifteen minutes.

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Because it's been stretched out through sound. The sound itself,

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it's very nature, is a vibration of a medium, whether

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it's a violin string or the vocal cords, and they

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vibrate so quickly they create a pitch. But then if

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you keep going faster and faster and faster and faster

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and faster and faster and faster with those pitches, they

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start to become percussive and sound. And so in a way,

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our human speech patterns are somewhere between that long sustained

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pitches and percussive sounds.

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Speaker 3: And so there's that.

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Speaker 2: Example of contradictions of juxposition of opposites, where you have

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a compressed, extracted moment of human life, but you're experiencing

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in slow motion.

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Speaker 3: It's almost.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know people are annoyed with cliche terms. It

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sort of feels like a mystery when we listen to music.

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We don't know why it does what it does to us.

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You know, it's scientific, and and then it also isn't.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, Yeah, there is, because there's the

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whole other aspect, which what you said made me think of,

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which is, on the one hand, there's this sense, you know,

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this sense of the an abstraction of the human voice,

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you know. But then there's also in music the percussion element,

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you know, or the rhythm element, the idea that it

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makes people dance, and then it then it's directly related

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to the idea that of pattern pattern moving, the idea

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of doing things in a in a kind of in

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a patterned way. And so you know, and it's interesting

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what you're saying to say that in some ways the

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percussion is a sped up sound, right that that if

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you if you, if you go really fast, and it

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turns into that to this beat, to this rhythm. And

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when we speak, we do have a rhythm. Obviously, you

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know there's a there's a beat. There's a rhythm.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 1: You know it because when you meet people that don't

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do it right, it's a like when you meet people

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that overtalk. You know, they don't know when to stop

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talking and they just keep going and there there's like

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there has there should be a beat and the other

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person should be able to speak when you when you

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encounter that, you realize that there's a rhythm to speaking.

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You know, there's really a rhythm, and it's it's there

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between people. But it's also there in the way we speak,

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there's this rhythm. We have sentences, we have words. All

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of these are actual our actual punctuation right there.

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Speaker 4: They're related, they're related to.

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Speaker 1: They're related to to the idea of rhythm. And so

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it's interesting to think that in some ways, music, especially

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ancient music, you know, it would have had these two

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extreme elements. On the one hand, an abstracted version of

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of sound that would be, you know, just these tones

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that are in patterns, but then also a type of

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rhythm that would actually also make.

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Speaker 4: You move, that would make people move, and.

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Speaker 1: So everything is vibrating, like you know, you're vibrating, and

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the and the the music is vibrating, uh know. Anyways,

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it's interesting to think that when you listen to sometimes

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you can't help it.

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Speaker 4: Like you hear.

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Speaker 1: Music, if there's a beat to it, your body just

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will start to follow it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Children do this instinctively, especially toddlers or younger than toddlers,

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when they hear music, they their bodies start to sway

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and in time too, they don't even think about it.

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They it's that, like you said, that outward sounding of

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rhythm of vibrations, which is what rhythm is. And let's

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go back to the concept of dance and contrasts that

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to sung music. A lot of sung music can be

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used for a lament, something that's sorrowful, a tragedy that happened,

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where joy is usually shown in dance and traditional cultures.

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You know, you see this in Judaism, you see this

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in African cultures, you see this in almost any culture.

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Joy is own through dance, that organized, rhythmic, corporate experience

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of people following patterns together and they feel united to

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each other.

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Speaker 3: It's a very bonding experience.

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Speaker 2: And that right there is a physical manifestation of what

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music does and helps us to understand why do we

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want it so much? Because it maybe is fractal. It's

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us feeling different patterns and symbols and shapes that on

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a smaller level relate to larger ones in the world,

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whether it is patterns that are natural in a in math,

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seashells shapes and different Pythagorean means and you know, golden

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sections and whatnot, and how that can course fond to

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a corporate event of archetypes and things that we experience,

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but that we feel it's not just cerebral, we really

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it's visceral in our gut we feel that this is right.

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It resonates, yeah, literally literally, and I think it's a

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continuum it literally Yeah, it does make you know and

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you you have the continuum where you start with. I

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talked about pitch becoming rhythm. The rhythm can start us,

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a pitch can start as rhythm where it's just a let's.

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Speaker 3: Say a wood block sound.

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Speaker 2: If you take a wood block sound and you were

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just speed it up very very very very quickly, I

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mean you need a computer to do this, that wood

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block sound starts to turn into pitch.

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Speaker 3: And then if you keep going, going, going.

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Speaker 2: Going further further, further, further further than that, that pitch sound,

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if you especially add more beats that are happening, can

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become static. And the static, if you extract that, it

384
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goes back to that one rhythmic pulse. So you could

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think of sound as just this continuum of definite rhythm

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that turns into pitch, that turns into chaotic static that

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goes back to rhythm.

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Speaker 3: And where on that design that model.

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Speaker 2: Are you going to extract your experience of music and

390
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what's its purpose?

391
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Speaker 3: What's its function?

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Speaker 2: Is something that we have a greater ability to do

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now that it's the twenty first century. Because there's so

394
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much cross pollination of different cultures. Technology is very very

395
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much changed composition. Everyone can have his or her own

396
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studio now in a room. You can make your own album.

397
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You could also become your own producer. You can balance

398
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sound in a way that's so detailed. There's a and

399
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also you could share online. You could hear what someone

400
00:25:02,559 --> 00:25:04,960
else is doing a completely different continent. You could share

401
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,599
files with each other, and so it's it's a very

402
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different synthesis of sounds that are happening now, where if

403
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you were looking at traditional cultures you were basically confined

404
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to those regions.

405
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Speaker 3: You see similarities.

406
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Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's funny that you say that.

407
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Speaker 1: But at the same time, it feels like, at least

408
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in terms of popular attention, there's almost like a leveling

409
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that's been happening, you know, especially in the past like

410
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fifteen years. I mean, every pop song sounds exactly the same,

411
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you know. Interesting time you even wonder you think, like

412
00:25:37,039 --> 00:25:38,799
I've heard that, did I hear that?

413
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Speaker 4: Like I've just heard that song? It's very weird. What's

414
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going on?

415
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Speaker 3: Uh?

416
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Speaker 2: This is a that's also interesting, you know how the

417
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more variety you get. Sometimes it creates a sameness in

418
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terms of production, in terms of output, but then you

419
00:25:59,079 --> 00:26:02,119
get it. Take a deep dive on SoundCloud with all

420
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these endie artists, and they're just doing their own thing.

421
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I think in more mainstream artists there's a certain standard

422
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and formula, so to speak, and once you know it

423
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and you hit it, you're more marketable and that sameness

424
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is more apparent there. But some of the most interesting

425
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,720
artists are DIY artists, and a lot of them this

426
00:26:25,799 --> 00:26:27,880
year got a lot of recognition at the Grammys, and

427
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,759
you listen to their music and it's just really really

428
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refreshing to hear people just do their own thing and

429
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not look back and say, Nope, it's the lane I'm choosing.

430
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I'm just gonna focus on this.

431
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Speaker 4: M Yeah. Definitely interesting. And so how do you see.

432
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Speaker 1: Because on the one hand, I heard you say something

433
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like you said you're involved in church music, but they're

434
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also doing things like sound, like found sound and like

435
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this more kind of contemporary type.

436
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Speaker 4: I guess I could call it this this there's.

437
00:27:05,839 --> 00:27:09,839
Speaker 1: Something accidental sometimes about these types of modern compositions. I

438
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,240
haven't heard your composition, so I don't I don't know,

439
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,240
So how do you bring that like, how do you

440
00:27:15,279 --> 00:27:18,920
reconcile that in your Because I've learned many musicians. I

441
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:20,559
have some that are close to me who, on the

442
00:27:20,559 --> 00:27:23,839
one hand, in church are quite traditional and really kind

443
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,680
of try to to be to follow the tradition of

444
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,440
the church. But then their compositions are are wild, like

445
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,200
they're they're they're atonal, they there, they have these these

446
00:27:34,279 --> 00:27:36,880
kind of very very extreme aspects to them, and so

447
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,279
I'm curious to know how you bring that together in

448
00:27:40,319 --> 00:27:41,079
your mind.

449
00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 2: I've thought about this a lot. And sometimes you're a

450
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,799
jack of all trades, you know, there's so many different

451
00:27:50,839 --> 00:27:53,759
influences around you, and you write for whatever projects in

452
00:27:53,759 --> 00:27:56,039
front of you. So I had one project where I

453
00:27:56,039 --> 00:28:00,720
had to write a piece based off of the interviews

454
00:28:01,039 --> 00:28:05,440
of what could have been someone who heard the final

455
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,240
transmissions of Amelia Earhart.

456
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Speaker 3: So this is way outside the box.

457
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, way outside the box when it comes to

458
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,359
someone who writes from the Oktoy coast, you know the

459
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,400
eight tones of where it's a chassok every weekend and

460
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,720
I'm not knocking either lane, but you know it's outside

461
00:28:22,759 --> 00:28:24,000
your comfort zone.

462
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Speaker 3: And but then what you find is that. Well.

463
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Speaker 2: Actually, our experience is pretty broad with all the different

464
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,480
things we absorb in terms of images and sounds, with

465
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,160
the Internet and just in our education, we have a

466
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,279
pretty rich not only background in training, but also.

467
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Speaker 3: Uptite. I mean, look at our cuisine in America.

468
00:28:46,039 --> 00:28:48,359
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm in America, but you know, you have

469
00:28:49,039 --> 00:28:51,119
a lot of Western cultures now have a fusion of

470
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,920
just about every culture that lives there. And so you

471
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,480
see those recipes all working together, and it's not an

472
00:28:57,519 --> 00:28:59,640
all uncommon where you say, Okay, I want Indian food

473
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,480
this not and then I'll have Italian food this night,

474
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,680
and then I'll have some Mexican food this night, and

475
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,680
then I'll make some heroes this night. And they're all

476
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:14,880
completely in different categories, but you're consuming them in one week.

477
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,480
And I feel the same thing away. With music, I

478
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,920
think culinary analogies are very apropos when it comes to music.

479
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,200
You have to create something that works for a gathering.

480
00:29:26,119 --> 00:29:29,359
You have to understand the timing of each course as

481
00:29:29,359 --> 00:29:31,680
it comes out like a movement of music, and you

482
00:29:31,799 --> 00:29:34,319
must understand how certain ingredients work with each other for

483
00:29:34,359 --> 00:29:38,119
the desired effect that you want. And you cannot fake

484
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,440
it because when it comes to food, everyone not some

485
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,359
everyone's very particular about food, so you really have to

486
00:29:45,359 --> 00:29:48,039
know what you're doing. It's chemistry, you know. It's the

487
00:29:48,039 --> 00:29:48,839
same thing with music.

488
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

489
00:29:49,559 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: Interesting, The food analogy is interesting, especially the way you

490
00:29:53,279 --> 00:29:56,680
presented it to us, because on the one hand, the

491
00:29:56,799 --> 00:30:00,279
last example you gave is something about how a all

492
00:30:00,759 --> 00:30:02,680
there has to be a kind of dance of the elements, right,

493
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,640
so everything kind of comes together. There has to be

494
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:13,160
a coherence. You have to experience experience the food as

495
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,000
having a certain type of coherence. If you if you

496
00:30:16,039 --> 00:30:18,200
go too far in one direction or the other, then

497
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,400
you lose people if you make it too spicy, too salty,

498
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,880
whatever like, if you like, you can just go off

499
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:29,799
the track and basically make it unpalatable for people. But

500
00:30:29,839 --> 00:30:32,599
then you also presented the other aspect, which you said,

501
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,599
you know, the fusion, in the sense of like people

502
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,839
now they have Mexican food one night, eating food the other,

503
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,200
and so there's actually a dis junk, like there's this

504
00:30:42,279 --> 00:30:47,599
idea that there is no there is no common experience

505
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:52,599
anymore that that in fact, there's an individualized experience.

506
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 4: And you mentioned that also with.

507
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: The the the extremes of the pop artist as someone

508
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,680
who who basically does this dribble that everybody can agree

509
00:31:04,079 --> 00:31:06,039
will make money, and it's so it ends up being

510
00:31:06,039 --> 00:31:08,480
all the same. But then you also have the other extreme,

511
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,519
which is a bunch of people doing their own thing

512
00:31:10,559 --> 00:31:12,759
and not caring about what the others are doing. And

513
00:31:12,799 --> 00:31:15,960
so these two extremes are interesting. So I'm curious to

514
00:31:16,039 --> 00:31:18,960
know what you think of that, because my tendency is

515
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,000
to think honestly, like my tendency is to think that

516
00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:26,440
both of those are dangerous. That in fact, that true symbolism,

517
00:31:26,559 --> 00:31:32,880
or true true coherence is something like a joining of

518
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,720
the multiple and the one together in a in a

519
00:31:35,759 --> 00:31:36,519
real dance.

520
00:31:36,279 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 4: Again a higher dance. Right, So you have.

521
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: You need a type of unity to have a coherent experience,

522
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:50,240
but you also need some spice, some diversion, some exploration

523
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:55,240
in order for it to be interesting or to rit

524
00:31:55,319 --> 00:31:59,720
to make your curiosity wake up. Anyway, So I'm curious

525
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,279
what you think think about that in terms of music,

526
00:32:01,319 --> 00:32:05,240
because we seem to have these Everything seems to be

527
00:32:05,279 --> 00:32:09,960
moving in different extremes in my impression, And.

528
00:32:10,119 --> 00:32:12,839
Speaker 2: There's also the path that you have to choose. Do

529
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,599
you keep once you found your recipe. Do you keep

530
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,319
replicating that or do you reinvent yourself every two to

531
00:32:19,359 --> 00:32:21,400
three years. And that's something that you see in popular

532
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,799
music especially. Yeah, one of the biggest examples of that

533
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,079
was David Bowie. You know, every two to three years

534
00:32:28,079 --> 00:32:31,599
there was a different look, a different outfit, different sound

535
00:32:31,599 --> 00:32:34,559
on his albums, and you know you see other artists

536
00:32:35,799 --> 00:32:41,599
after Bowie really follow that model so they can stay current, fresh, contemporary.

537
00:32:42,119 --> 00:32:44,680
I guess one of the problems of that is it

538
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:50,759
sort of feels a little schizophrenic. You know, you're you

539
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,559
never really focus on one thing and hone and on

540
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:54,960
that craft and want to.

541
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:56,079
Speaker 3: Really get into it.

542
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 2: Although looking at David Bowie's last album, it's sort of

543
00:32:59,519 --> 00:33:05,079
a circle. He's coming back to the concepts of major tom,

544
00:33:05,599 --> 00:33:08,440
coming back to the concepts of self isolation. And of

545
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,400
course schizophrenia ran in his family. On a personal level

546
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:19,599
with David Bowie, and so if you're so your own person,

547
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,440
you become your own niche commodity. Let's say you're that

548
00:33:24,559 --> 00:33:29,480
dey artist who has found what works for him or her,

549
00:33:30,599 --> 00:33:34,920
then what happens is, well, do I keep doing that

550
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,079
same thing or is it going to turn people off?

551
00:33:38,119 --> 00:33:41,640
Because I haven't really expanded or do I go more pop.

552
00:33:41,759 --> 00:33:44,279
That happens with some musicians. You know, this is interesting

553
00:33:44,319 --> 00:33:46,200
we are on this topic. But you know, some musicians

554
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,440
started one genre like country, and they're like, no, I

555
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,279
want to go more mainstream. And now you see the

556
00:33:52,279 --> 00:33:55,680
opposite happening. People are more mainstream and now they're going

557
00:33:55,759 --> 00:33:58,759
to country. And also, you know country is a huge market,

558
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,079
but it any of it. I do think it's a

559
00:34:03,119 --> 00:34:08,519
combination of not caring what other people think. But but

560
00:34:08,559 --> 00:34:10,679
that's different than saying I'm going to write the most

561
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,119
off putting, caustic music that is going to make everyone

562
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,400
put their hands over the years, but I'm going to

563
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,760
stick stick to my principles.

564
00:34:18,559 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 1: That's different the idea that the musicians and the caret

565
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,320
other people think, that's just that's just a lie.

566
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:27,679
Speaker 4: I mean, if they're putting it up on.

567
00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:30,639
Speaker 1: Spotify's because they clearly care about what other people think,

568
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,039
Like they want the reality, they want to see what

569
00:34:34,119 --> 00:34:37,960
other people think of what they're doing. And so you know,

570
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,719
the posture of of the you know, I just do

571
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:42,519
this for myself.

572
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,639
Speaker 4: I don't want, I don't care what to a certain extent.

573
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,199
Speaker 2: Right because like you said, it's sort of counterintuitive to

574
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,719
making all of your public and to be consumed in

575
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:52,440
the public way.

576
00:34:53,039 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: You know, as soon as you make something public, then

577
00:34:55,039 --> 00:34:59,920
you it becomes you can't you cannot avoid the question

578
00:35:00,039 --> 00:35:03,440
and of of of it being received, you know, by

579
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,800
a group of people, and that you end up participating

580
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,840
and in a discussion or in a you end up

581
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,440
participating in something. But uh, yeah, it's fascinating to think

582
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,840
about about. So, I mean, I don't know what your

583
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,079
approach is to church music. So how do you see

584
00:35:20,119 --> 00:35:22,519
that as connecting to church music?

585
00:35:22,559 --> 00:35:23,119
Speaker 4: Do you think?

586
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,800
Speaker 1: You know, some people might say that the Orthodox church

587
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,360
music in America is you know, syncratic. You know, I've

588
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,039
heard people say that where they're saying it actually is

589
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,400
just an import from the outside. It doesn't fit with

590
00:35:35,599 --> 00:35:39,280
our melodies are tones, it's it's in some ways a.

591
00:35:41,679 --> 00:35:43,119
Speaker 4: It doesn't make sense, you know.

592
00:35:43,159 --> 00:35:46,679
Speaker 1: And so now we're also seeing people try to adapt,

593
00:35:46,679 --> 00:35:50,599
like you've obviously heard the fame the famous Little Appalachian

594
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:55,280
uh you know version of Christ has risen that I

595
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,239
think really struck a chord with American people like it

596
00:35:59,000 --> 00:35:59,760
in Europe too.

597
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 2: You could hear choirs in European countries make their own

598
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:05,440
YouTube video of that arrangement.

599
00:36:06,079 --> 00:36:07,599
Speaker 1: It start according with this, So what do you think

600
00:36:07,599 --> 00:36:10,840
of the situation of Orthodox music and America in terms

601
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:12,480
of the different questions that we're at?

602
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 3: Good good question.

603
00:36:14,599 --> 00:36:17,079
Speaker 2: Before I get into that, I just wanted to summarize

604
00:36:17,079 --> 00:36:20,840
what we were talking about. Where you do need to

605
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,159
have your principles. You need to stick to your guns,

606
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,760
but husually the principles that you should stick to have

607
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,199
to deal more with craftsmanship than being off putting. I

608
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:36,119
think that your principles should be things that are commonly experienced,

609
00:36:36,159 --> 00:36:41,159
like breathing, sighing, love, relationships.

610
00:36:41,159 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 3: Communication.

611
00:36:42,199 --> 00:36:45,119
Speaker 2: Music is a huge part of communication, and so you

612
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,840
work on that through craftsmanship, through getting better and better

613
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,039
and better and better what you do now that could

614
00:36:50,119 --> 00:36:55,039
apply to electronic, secular piece or Orthodox church music. So

615
00:36:55,199 --> 00:36:59,280
there are certain principles that I take into consideration. Yes,

616
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,960
it's true, there's a lot about the Orthodox Church as

617
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:09,719
it is experienced here in the Western hemisphere that does

618
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:15,360
feel important. And then there's a lot of it where

619
00:37:15,559 --> 00:37:19,840
it must be it must come from a living, breathing tradition.

620
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:26,480
It's not arbitrary, and I think I try to learn.

621
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,119
Someone told me that you should learn a chant tradition

622
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,840
very well and study with a master chanter. And it

623
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,239
doesn't matter what tradition is. You need to learn something

624
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,719
and really understand what it's worth and its value. At

625
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:44,559
the same time, I learned Western counterpoint, Western arranging technique,

626
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,000
and then I have a lot of experience which is

627
00:37:47,039 --> 00:37:50,440
working with regular people and church choirs and what works

628
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,920
for their voices and instead, this is where the square

629
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:55,559
peg is forced into the round hole.

630
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:57,639
Speaker 3: Taking a particular context.

631
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,119
Speaker 2: Let's saying imperial Russia, and then forcing that in a

632
00:38:00,199 --> 00:38:03,480
perish in America in terms of technique or skill set

633
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,760
may not work. A lot of the times it doesn't.

634
00:38:07,159 --> 00:38:09,280
So I try to really think about what are the

635
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:13,840
strengths and weaknesses of your average American singer, but.

636
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,199
Speaker 3: Always in the elevating way, how can they sound the best?

637
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,519
Speaker 2: And so practicality plays a huge role of what I

638
00:38:19,519 --> 00:38:23,840
do in church music. I'm also very much geared towards

639
00:38:25,119 --> 00:38:31,639
using traditional chants or melodies as a starting point and

640
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,320
making my arrangements as transparent as possible because it's meant

641
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:40,199
for corporate prayer. You know, there is a very directed

642
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,880
use of the music, and the music is to lead

643
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:50,320
people into the teachings of the Church, the mystery of Christ,

644
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:55,920
the liturgy in particular, and all of the offices build.

645
00:38:55,679 --> 00:38:58,760
Speaker 3: Towards the Eucharist and the Divine Liturgy.

646
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,639
Speaker 2: And it's a pretty awesome responsibility to have, and so

647
00:39:03,119 --> 00:39:06,480
approaching it with that understanding of understanding, you know, is

648
00:39:06,519 --> 00:39:10,239
to teach, is to educate, is to bring people together.

649
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 3: And it also needs to be done in a way

650
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:13,199
that opens I.

651
00:39:13,199 --> 00:39:15,599
Speaker 2: Say, your heart or your soul, if you want to

652
00:39:15,679 --> 00:39:18,360
use these terms, if we could talk about them to prayer.

653
00:39:19,159 --> 00:39:24,000
Same Propho's talks about prayer before prayer, lighting candles, being

654
00:39:24,039 --> 00:39:28,559
around incense in a dark room sets the stage for

655
00:39:28,639 --> 00:39:33,360
prayer so to speak, you know. And the music in

656
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,360
the church helps to become like sonic icons. They help

657
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:40,360
to reinforce the teachings of the church, the history of

658
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,760
the church, and also the living experience of Christ. And

659
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:49,960
so communication is very important to that clear communication and

660
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,079
also communication in a way that is it doesn't have

661
00:39:54,159 --> 00:39:58,000
people emotionally hunker down and shrug it. People open up

662
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,000
so they can let it come through them and ruminate

663
00:40:02,039 --> 00:40:02,199
all that.

664
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's that's such a I think

665
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,239
it's such a great point because in some ways, if

666
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,239
you're trying to serve those purposes, it's not even just

667
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,119
about being traditional for being traditional, Like it's not about

668
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:18,239
tradition for tradition's sake. In some ways, because you're your

669
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:22,480
purpose is to bring people into a certain state of being,

670
00:40:22,599 --> 00:40:26,400
a certain direction of attention, then you have to take

671
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,079
that into consideration. And so if you if you shock

672
00:40:29,159 --> 00:40:31,679
people with new melodies all the time, then you're not

673
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,840
doing that because you're forcing them to pay attention. You

674
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:36,400
see that, I mean I see that in some of

675
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,159
the churches that I grew up in, these Protestant churches,

676
00:40:39,199 --> 00:40:42,239
where we actually used to have a pretty tight canon

677
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,000
of hymns that we sang, and then ultimately at some

678
00:40:45,079 --> 00:40:48,760
point people started introducing like new songs every two weeks,

679
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,760
like they just kept introducing new songs to be to.

680
00:40:51,679 --> 00:40:52,559
Speaker 4: Be contemporary new.

681
00:40:52,679 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 1: So what it meant is that you're constantly being shocked

682
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,599
with like songs that are not that that are you

683
00:40:58,679 --> 00:41:01,039
having to pay attention to way too much because in

684
00:41:01,039 --> 00:41:03,320
some ways you're like, oh, this is a new song,

685
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:04,719
and you're trying to figure it out, and you're trying

686
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,360
to follow the melody and you're trying to kind of

687
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:10,039
see what's going on, and it's fascinating to realize what

688
00:41:10,079 --> 00:41:12,239
it does is that it and then in some ways

689
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,320
becomes almost an obstacle to to worship.

690
00:41:15,679 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 4: Right. But yeah, but at the same time, if.

691
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 1: You are just in some ways saying we just need

692
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,679
to have tradition and just be traditional, then you're then

693
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,519
ultimately you're you're going to be dying, like because the

694
00:41:32,639 --> 00:41:34,920
breath is going to run out. You can say, like

695
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,000
you're just basically going through the going through the motions.

696
00:41:39,679 --> 00:41:40,039
Speaker 4: I was.

697
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,280
Speaker 1: I was at you know, the St. Andrew's Church in Riverside,

698
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,079
Father Josiah's Church. Yes, one of the things they're trying

699
00:41:46,119 --> 00:41:51,039
to do is to take because in America we basically

700
00:41:51,079 --> 00:41:53,440
have all these different liturgical traditions that are kind of

701
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:57,519
coming together and competing and jossing and you know, rubbing

702
00:41:57,559 --> 00:41:59,719
against each other. And they're trying to kind of integrate

703
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:04,199
that into their services where they have both Byzantine chanting

704
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:09,239
and the more four part harmonies, the Wretchian tones, and

705
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:13,400
they try to find ways to integrate them in a

706
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,679
way that isn't jarring, that is actually kind of coherent

707
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,239
and it's fascinating. I mean, I don't know how successful

708
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,719
it is. I find sometimes it is very successful. I'm

709
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,400
sure sometimes people find it a little surprising. But that's

710
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,360
an interesting work that is in both both innovative but

711
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,880
also really with the desire to kind of bring the

712
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:33,760
Orthodox American experience together.

713
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 2: Yes, and it is something that is probably more if

714
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,400
it's more natural, if it's more organic, it's probably going

715
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,360
to last longer because it's.

716
00:42:45,199 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 4: Not forced and it's not imposed.

717
00:42:48,199 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 3: That's right.

718
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 2: And you also see that people are throwing the baby

719
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,639
out with the bathwater. Now I know of that parish.

720
00:42:54,679 --> 00:42:58,280
I don't know what their music program is like per se.

721
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:02,199
But in general, the the sounds that we have, there's

722
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:06,639
a commonality, whether it is in Russian church music or

723
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:08,880
is in the Byzantine transradition, and that's the idea of

724
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:13,400
stasis sustained. So that's clearly shown in Byzantine chat With

725
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:18,920
an a song, it creates a space of contemplation because

726
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:23,400
you are focusing, so you lose track of time in

727
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:27,000
a sense. The music has rhythm, it does, but you

728
00:43:27,039 --> 00:43:30,079
don't have the same understanding of harmonic development and harmonic

729
00:43:30,119 --> 00:43:34,159
shifts that are in correspondence with rhythm. There's the idea

730
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:40,159
of this oneness of time where we don't know if

731
00:43:40,159 --> 00:43:42,480
it's begne or when it's ending.

732
00:43:42,559 --> 00:43:44,119
Speaker 3: We are sort of in that presence.

733
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 2: And you hear that too with a lot of legato

734
00:43:48,039 --> 00:43:52,039
contelena Russian choral singing, where everything's connected into this one

735
00:43:52,119 --> 00:43:57,639
sustained sound. And the Orthodox all have this aversion to

736
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,360
moments of silence in the service. I notice, right when

737
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,960
something ends, something else is beginning. Always it's this constant

738
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,800
dovetailing of sounds. So sound the silence is kind of

739
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:10,679
off pooting for the Orthodox because it sounds like someone

740
00:44:10,679 --> 00:44:14,000
made a mistake, you know. But if you notice, everyone's

741
00:44:14,039 --> 00:44:18,039
always going through this relay of sound in the services,

742
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:19,599
and so there's also this.

743
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 3: Cooperative sustate in the services and the.

744
00:44:25,519 --> 00:44:28,559
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, uh and what you say it.

745
00:44:28,679 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 1: I realized that the moments where I've found that the

746
00:44:32,119 --> 00:44:35,440
liturgy has been the most beautiful is exactly when it's

747
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,679
doing what you're saying, when you know, during the like

748
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,880
during the amen, the priests has started, you know, the

749
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:44,480
next part, and then there's this sense of like this

750
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,440
just this these things, you know, moving into each other,

751
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:48,239
where there's.

752
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:49,679
Speaker 4: No actual, actual cut.

753
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 1: There's almost like this transition moment of two spaces, two

754
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,719
spaces overlapping and then continuing into the And that's really

755
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,639
the moments where I'm the most kind of taken by

756
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:02,719
by the music when that happens during the liturgy.

757
00:45:03,519 --> 00:45:07,039
Speaker 2: So there's an awmen that can occur right before the Trubichim,

758
00:45:07,639 --> 00:45:10,159
which is one of the most sustained parts of the service,

759
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,760
because it's just this long amount of time you need

760
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:17,079
practically to let the priests bring the gifts out, put

761
00:45:17,119 --> 00:45:20,400
them on the altar table, and so you hear their

762
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,159
prayers being said underneath while the choir sings.

763
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,679
Speaker 3: And there's a historical development to this. It's not as

764
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:27,599
if this was.

765
00:45:27,599 --> 00:45:32,119
Speaker 2: The original intention of the troop Bechim. However, regardless of that,

766
00:45:32,159 --> 00:45:35,920
you feel this suspension of time happen, especially at that moment,

767
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:40,320
and a lot of the arrangements of the trub sound ethereal.

768
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,800
Whether it's a Byzantine chant or whether it's Russian choral music,

769
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,960
they sound out of time. Other moments like that too,

770
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:55,639
can be moments of the anaphroa, the egoistic canon after

771
00:45:55,679 --> 00:46:00,199
the elevation of the gifts, and there's another awmen that

772
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,239
happens after that, and you move into you know, holy

773
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,239
things or for the holy and you transition into another

774
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,559
part of the service where we have the community hymns,

775
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:16,840
and it's this whole relay of meaning to meaning, logic

776
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:22,159
to logic, and peace to peace, love to love. If

777
00:46:22,199 --> 00:46:26,559
you see in the services of loving Christ loving each

778
00:46:26,559 --> 00:46:32,960
other with that distinction of Orthodox especially some traditions are

779
00:46:33,079 --> 00:46:36,679
very very strict and formal and how they do things,

780
00:46:37,079 --> 00:46:39,599
but it's almost as if that helps to open you

781
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:43,880
up to really think about and be loving, so you

782
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:47,239
put aside all of your own preconceived notions about what

783
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:51,199
that is and you really focus on the church like

784
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,719
water over a stone and a creek, shaping you, forming you,

785
00:46:55,199 --> 00:46:57,880
forming you, over and over and over again.

786
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because what you're saying, I realized, like musically,

787
00:47:04,079 --> 00:47:06,719
like really just music. Obviously there's the meaning is part

788
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:11,079
of it, but just musically, I to me, the anafro

789
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,039
was always just always the high point. Like to me,

790
00:47:14,079 --> 00:47:16,559
it's always the high point, uh, And it's the thing

791
00:47:16,599 --> 00:47:18,679
that I just get the most and I'm just the

792
00:47:18,679 --> 00:47:21,599
most seized by. But then I was talking to my son,

793
00:47:22,199 --> 00:47:24,639
and you know, he was telling me, he said, the

794
00:47:24,639 --> 00:47:27,119
true Big Kim was the part where he loved that

795
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,480
because it has this kind of soft, like this really

796
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,760
really soft aspect to it, where the Anafa is more

797
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,880
like this this you know, everything is coming together and

798
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:39,679
it's like this this this crescendo in some ways of

799
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:40,639
the of the experience.

800
00:47:41,159 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 3: Uh.

801
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 4: But but then I thought, wow, it's interesting.

802
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 1: I realized, yeah, some that people will have things that

803
00:47:46,519 --> 00:47:49,719
are closer to them in terms of their sensibilities, you know,

804
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,760
even though it's a it's it all comes together, you

805
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,519
know obviously. Uh, but that's a wonder that's it's funny

806
00:47:56,519 --> 00:47:57,920
because I never thought about it when you said it.

807
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,320
I remember remember my son like pointing out to me

808
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,360
how how this is like his favorite part of the liturgy.

809
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:06,559
Speaker 3: And they are moments that are.

810
00:48:08,039 --> 00:48:11,119
Speaker 2: Meant to be highlighted, you know, the procession of the

811
00:48:11,159 --> 00:48:13,880
gifts during the true Uchim, and then the consecration of

812
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,280
the gifts at the Anafra. I mean, and there is

813
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:21,480
an overt corporate call at the Anaphra, you know, let

814
00:48:21,559 --> 00:48:23,880
us lift up our hearts, we lift them up to

815
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,239
the Lord. And it's the direct address of the congregation

816
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:30,760
with a clergy to pray directly to God and offer

817
00:48:31,079 --> 00:48:33,960
the gifts that are on the table the altar, and

818
00:48:34,039 --> 00:48:36,440
so there. They're very powerful moments, and there are moments

819
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:40,159
that only really make sense when you are in the church.

820
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:43,079
You know, these are the mysteries of the church, and

821
00:48:43,119 --> 00:48:45,719
they don't. The first parts of the service are usually

822
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:50,280
didactic psalms, scripture teachings at the church traparia, and then

823
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:54,000
you switch after the Gospel and it becomes very particular

824
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,639
to being in the church. I suppose that's why they

825
00:48:57,039 --> 00:49:01,119
dismissed catechumans in earlier eras of the church. This wasn't

826
00:49:01,159 --> 00:49:06,519
really for them at that point. It almost shows connections

827
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,320
with Christianity. And you know, I don't want to say

828
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,920
a mystery cult, but you know, these are the mysteries

829
00:49:12,159 --> 00:49:15,519
that these are the real particular facets of the of

830
00:49:15,559 --> 00:49:19,079
the church's experience that happened at those particular moments, and

831
00:49:19,119 --> 00:49:22,960
that are heart sayints, you know, eat my bodies, drink

832
00:49:23,039 --> 00:49:24,960
my blood, heart sayings to follow.

833
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,559
Speaker 3: They don't make sense. Yeah, unless you're in the church.

834
00:49:28,679 --> 00:49:32,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm curious what you think about because now we're

835
00:49:32,679 --> 00:49:35,320
talking about like this deeply participative aspect.

836
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 4: I mean, in some ways. The liturgy is the.

837
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 1: The highest version of how music participates in our life

838
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:46,639
and how there's both you know, this this exchange between

839
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,440
the altar and the choir. You know that there's we're

840
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,280
all attending, we're all participating.

841
00:49:51,599 --> 00:49:55,079
Speaker 4: We're moving, We ultimately move into it as we actually

842
00:49:55,679 --> 00:49:58,679
it makes us eat. We actually eat the bread.

843
00:49:58,599 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 1: And the wine that is result of this kind of

844
00:50:02,039 --> 00:50:05,559
musical coming together. One of the things that have been

845
00:50:05,639 --> 00:50:09,960
has fascinated to me is how music has become performative

846
00:50:10,639 --> 00:50:14,079
in the past few centuries and the development of the

847
00:50:14,119 --> 00:50:17,800
concert hall and the idea of listening.

848
00:50:17,519 --> 00:50:20,559
Speaker 4: To music, right, the idea that you just listen to music.

849
00:50:21,079 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 1: And so I'd like to know what you think about

850
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,960
that when you think the role of these things are,

851
00:50:26,079 --> 00:50:27,559
you know, what do you think it's doing through our

852
00:50:27,639 --> 00:50:30,119
sense of what music is and what its function is

853
00:50:30,159 --> 00:50:31,079
in our society.

854
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:34,199
Speaker 2: You know, there's no clear cut point in the history

855
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,679
of music where something happened and something didn't. There's always

856
00:50:37,679 --> 00:50:41,079
this fluid exchange, like in an ocean, with these different currents.

857
00:50:41,119 --> 00:50:44,119
So you know, for instance, if you take a look

858
00:50:44,159 --> 00:50:49,719
at twentieth century America, early twenties century America coming out

859
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:53,559
of the reconstruction era of the Civil War. A lot

860
00:50:53,559 --> 00:50:56,800
of that's the Second Industrial Revolution, and a lot of

861
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:03,199
Americans are trying to outdo the Europeans the architecture, civil institutions,

862
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:06,159
and one of them is music. The Americans bring over

863
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:17,239
fabulous musicians from Europe like Gustav Mahler and the uh

864
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,760
Oh his name is Escaping Meat Dwarjack the check composer

865
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:25,360
to conduct at these orchestras here in the West and

866
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:31,280
the Western Hemisphere. And you have that kind of staid,

867
00:51:32,119 --> 00:51:38,760
almost respectability politics of wearing suits and dresses and pearls.

868
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:42,519
And we have arrived, you know, we have come into

869
00:51:42,559 --> 00:51:47,760
this place of affluence and success as Americans, and we

870
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:51,280
can do this too. We can produce European style concerts.

871
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:55,079
And at the same time, after World War One, while

872
00:51:55,119 --> 00:52:00,280
you have that high society americanness outdoing the Europeans, you

873
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:04,360
also have the birth of jazz that really takes hold

874
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:10,280
of America post nineteen fourteen, and it sends people into

875
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:13,199
a tizzy, a frenzy, and you see the dancing that

876
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:16,719
happens there. So if you look about, look at that

877
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:20,320
the chairs in a concert hall are literally screwed into

878
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:25,840
the floor you can't you can't dance, you can't move them. Yes,

879
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,840
And it's not just something particularly to America, obviously, it's

880
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:35,880
this is the European concert experience. And this is something

881
00:52:36,039 --> 00:52:42,280
that you saw was being challenged just naturally in American

882
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:46,360
culture with high society people who would go to Harlem

883
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:52,199
on the weekends dancing, who would make the same people

884
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:55,760
who went to Carnegie Hall for a concert of European

885
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,800
style concert music. And you see that the two have

886
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:02,079
been divorced, go back a previous century. This is something

887
00:53:02,079 --> 00:53:07,599
that Ricard Wagner was very keen on synthesizing. He talked

888
00:53:07,599 --> 00:53:09,840
about the synthesis of the arts, and he felt that

889
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:13,360
they were divorced. You know, why is their acting and

890
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:17,559
singing and costume design and dancing. Why are they all separate?

891
00:53:17,559 --> 00:53:21,639
Why can't they be just one giant synthesis. And that's

892
00:53:21,679 --> 00:53:24,199
one of the aspects Wagner was trying to bring into

893
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:29,280
his dramas, his musical dramas is what he called his operas,

894
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:31,760
where it was a synthesis of everything that had been

895
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:36,239
divorced in European culture coming together. Now people in the

896
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,440
hall and Yroid aren't dancing, those chairs are screwed into

897
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:43,079
the floor too. But sometimes you'll see in opera dancing

898
00:53:43,119 --> 00:53:47,440
on the stage and coming bringing back together of all

899
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:52,559
these different time periods, looking back at the Renaissance, how

900
00:53:52,599 --> 00:53:56,920
did the Renaissance appropriate an earlier era Greek and Roman culture?

901
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:03,119
The Greek culture and concepts of the chorus and of drama,

902
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:07,480
of tragedy and comedy. How did people in the Renaissance

903
00:54:07,519 --> 00:54:11,760
appropriate something that they were separated by hundreds of thousands

904
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:14,840
of years, And then you move forward to three hundred

905
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:18,679
years in European culture, how did the nineteenth century Europeans

906
00:54:19,119 --> 00:54:21,800
look at their Renaissance and then look at the Greco

907
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:26,119
roma culture, always trying to get back to the communal,

908
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:33,960
public experience of art and what does it mean in

909
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,480
European culture in the nineteenth century, there is no higher

910
00:54:36,559 --> 00:54:38,760
art form than an opera. It is the pinnacle.

911
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 3: You can say.

912
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:41,599
Speaker 2: In twentieth century America, there's no higher art form than

913
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:44,840
the movie. You know, and look at the movies. Sometimes

914
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:46,079
all those things come together.

915
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:50,760
Speaker 1: So one of the things that I've been pointing to,

916
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:52,360
and you can tell me what you think about this,

917
00:54:52,599 --> 00:54:56,480
is that if you think of Greek drama, you know,

918
00:54:56,679 --> 00:54:59,280
and the chorus and the Greek drama and everything. We

919
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:03,159
always have to remember that the Greek dramas, at least

920
00:55:03,159 --> 00:55:06,239
at the outset, they were liturgical events, like they were

921
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:10,039
events in the in honor of Dionysus, on the feasts

922
00:55:10,039 --> 00:55:12,719
of Dionysus uh. And there was a a kind of

923
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:16,599
procession of the plays that ended with a with a parody,

924
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:21,480
like a comedy play. And and so this is the

925
00:55:21,519 --> 00:55:23,760
sense that I've been wondering about, is that, like when

926
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,480
I think of Wagner and his gazooms contract like this

927
00:55:26,599 --> 00:55:30,000
idea of the of the complete work of art.

928
00:55:30,199 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 4: My intuition is to say that liturgy.

929
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:35,719
Speaker 1: Is the is the complete work of art, because the

930
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:39,679
one thing that's missing in in the opera and in

931
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:43,559
the movies is participation. You know, you there is this

932
00:55:43,679 --> 00:55:46,000
separation of the public and the performer.

933
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 4: And then and therefore you you're you're.

934
00:55:49,079 --> 00:55:52,280
Speaker 1: Looking at something like a painting, and you're you're you're

935
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:52,960
looking at it.

936
00:55:54,159 --> 00:55:57,280
Speaker 4: But the liturgy is has everything.

937
00:55:57,280 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 1: It has the music, it has the motion, it has

938
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:02,239
the drama, it has all of that.

939
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:04,880
Speaker 3: It has the food, but it's your story. Yeah.

940
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 4: It also has the eating, yeah, which is not The.

941
00:56:08,199 --> 00:56:09,639
Speaker 3: Eating is very important.

942
00:56:10,079 --> 00:56:14,559
Speaker 2: Well, I can tell you about eighteen opera in Italy

943
00:56:14,559 --> 00:56:17,440
in the seventeen hundreds. Oh, they would be eating during

944
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:20,559
the performances. That's why you've got the concept of throwing

945
00:56:20,599 --> 00:56:22,280
apple corps at people, because if.

946
00:56:22,159 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 3: They didn't like your aria, they would throw it at you.

947
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:28,280
Speaker 2: That's a different story, but that was sort of an

948
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:31,119
impromptu I'm gonna bring my own meal to the opera thing.

949
00:56:31,599 --> 00:56:32,519
Speaker 3: But in terms of.

950
00:56:32,559 --> 00:56:34,519
Speaker 1: It wasn't It wasn't part of the story. It wasn't

951
00:56:34,519 --> 00:56:36,079
part of what of the experience. It was like eating

952
00:56:36,119 --> 00:56:38,119
popcorn while you're watching a movie. It's not part of

953
00:56:38,159 --> 00:56:40,079
the movie. You're not engaging in the movie while you're

954
00:56:40,079 --> 00:56:40,800
eating popcorn.

955
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:41,280
Speaker 4: No.

956
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:46,159
Speaker 2: No, And so in the Christian context of the Eucharist,

957
00:56:47,159 --> 00:56:51,800
that food is all essential, and.

958
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 3: We come full circle.

959
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:59,280
Speaker 2: It's about culinary arts, it's about cooking, it's about ingredients,

960
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,960
it's about how having everything perfectly balanced, because that's probably

961
00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:07,599
one of the most communally binding aspects of human culturest food.

962
00:57:08,119 --> 00:57:10,559
And so the liturgy does do that, and it does

963
00:57:10,639 --> 00:57:13,880
it not just with the u gress, but also does

964
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:16,119
it with other types of food that could be off

965
00:57:16,119 --> 00:57:20,840
to the side. You know, different types of bread, raisin bread, whatnot.

966
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:27,039
There's also memorial wheat, the so called kohliva, et cetera,

967
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:32,440
and other types of food that are appropriate for certain occasions.

968
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:35,400
But as you said, it's actually part of the intention.

969
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,320
It is incorporated to the service itself, and that is

970
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:40,199
the reason to gather.

971
00:57:40,519 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 3: The reason to gather is because of the ugriss. I mean,

972
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:44,519
it's a meal.

973
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:50,119
Speaker 2: And I suppose in early Christianity the ritual developed around

974
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:53,880
the meal, whether it was the Passover meal or the

975
00:57:55,079 --> 00:57:58,840
meal that love agapi meal of getting together remembering Christ

976
00:57:59,159 --> 00:58:02,840
every week, and it extends from that. And you see,

977
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:09,159
of course with the the Coptic Orthodox, they have never

978
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:13,960
divorced dance. They have never divorced rhythm, and they've never

979
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:17,639
divorced singing, and they had never divorced eating. From their

980
00:58:17,639 --> 00:58:21,440
liturgical experience, it's all that. Yeah, it's a complete experience we.

981
00:58:23,239 --> 00:58:23,599
Speaker 4: Will have.

982
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,079
Speaker 3: I was just gonna say, that's it, that's it.

983
00:58:27,079 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 4: That's the yore they were walking around the altar.

984
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:32,079
Speaker 1: But you know, at least we can say that we

985
00:58:32,119 --> 00:58:34,400
have that little little bit of a dance left in

986
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:35,400
our liturgical world.

987
00:58:35,559 --> 00:58:38,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you I looked online, I saw a wedding

988
00:58:38,119 --> 00:58:42,920
in Romania, and they actually held handkerchiefs and did a

989
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:47,199
line dance around the table. Oh yeah, as you would

990
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:52,159
do counterclockwise, but like a real balk and dance around

991
00:58:52,239 --> 00:58:54,280
the table during the dance of Isaiah.

992
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 3: But like you said, that's that's it. That's it. I

993
00:58:57,880 --> 00:59:00,360
mean in Eastern Orthodoxy, that's all we get.

994
00:59:01,719 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, just get the marriage the marriage dance. But one

995
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:06,280
of the things I mean, I'd like to hear your

996
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:06,719
being on this.

997
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:09,679
Speaker 1: One of the things that I've been thinking about in

998
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:12,880
terms of popular culture and how to make popular culture

999
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:19,039
more participative right now is the notion of making it

1000
00:59:19,079 --> 00:59:19,920
into celebration.

1001
00:59:21,079 --> 00:59:21,199
Speaker 3: Uh.

1002
00:59:22,519 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 1: The idea of writing anthems, for example, is something that

1003
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:27,840
nobody does anymore. Nobody writes anthems, you know.

1004
00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:29,719
Speaker 4: But the idea of a.

1005
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:34,639
Speaker 1: Celebratory art where you're you're basically writing something in order

1006
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:39,119
to express its value to you and then and kind

1007
00:59:39,119 --> 00:59:43,360
of express our our participation in it. You know, you

1008
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:47,000
still have you still have experiences like that in games,

1009
00:59:47,039 --> 00:59:50,400
like at sports games, people will use music in an

1010
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:55,360
anthem manner. But it seems like, let's say, it seems

1011
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:57,440
like now would be a time, I think for musicians

1012
00:59:57,440 --> 00:59:59,840
to think about that to think about this idea of

1013
00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:05,679
the panegyic aspect of dance, it's like celebratory aspect that

1014
01:00:05,679 --> 01:00:06,719
that brings us together.

1015
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:12,800
Speaker 2: Many musicians do. I mean, look at em. EDM is

1016
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:14,519
all based around dance. I mean when you go to

1017
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:16,920
EDM concert or what do you see? You see the console,

1018
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:18,400
the DJ table.

1019
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:23,159
Speaker 1: It's not we don't dance together with DM. Nobody people

1020
01:00:23,239 --> 01:00:26,360
don't dance. People dance individually in a crop.

1021
01:00:26,599 --> 01:00:31,199
Speaker 6: That's true, there is this sense of celebration, like like

1022
01:00:31,239 --> 01:00:34,960
this idea of like I said, like an anthem where

1023
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:38,320
it brings you together and then you're you're all paying

1024
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:41,440
attention to to something together and you can see as

1025
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:42,280
you're doing it.

1026
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:44,119
Speaker 1: Like I mean, like singing a national anthem. That's what

1027
01:00:44,159 --> 01:00:46,599
happens when you sing national anthem. Obviously you can have

1028
01:00:46,639 --> 01:00:48,679
anthem to all kinds of other things that are not

1029
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:51,559
your country, but it seems like that's something.

1030
01:00:51,599 --> 01:00:52,480
Speaker 4: I mean, that's one.

1031
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:57,960
Speaker 1: Aspect that that could help to heal our culture a little,

1032
01:00:57,960 --> 01:00:59,920
because now it's like everything's so fragmented.

1033
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:07,840
Speaker 3: Hmmm. You know they're there, right, I mean, the anthems

1034
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:18,519
already are there, they exist, and it almost feels i

1035
01:01:18,519 --> 01:01:20,679
don't want to say it feels sort of.

1036
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:26,480
Speaker 2: Passe for people to sing the national anthem, although because

1037
01:01:26,519 --> 01:01:30,239
when I'm at a sport event when it's being sung,

1038
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:32,599
it's not as if people are being irreverend.

1039
01:01:32,639 --> 01:01:33,920
Speaker 3: Everyone's into it, you know.

1040
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:39,119
Speaker 2: In terms of pop music, you know, you had the

1041
01:01:39,159 --> 01:01:42,960
stadium Rock in the seventies with all those big, big,

1042
01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:51,000
big anthems, and that got the audience, you know, moving

1043
01:01:51,039 --> 01:01:58,519
and grooving together. And you did have the Christian rock

1044
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:01,599
movement at the end of the night where they had

1045
01:02:01,639 --> 01:02:01,840
a lot.

1046
01:02:02,119 --> 01:02:04,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, they have got they've got a little bit of that,

1047
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:06,960
like the kind of yeah, they do have a little

1048
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:09,679
bit of that anthem sense, you know. And then and

1049
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:14,239
also they make the song simple and then people participate.

1050
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:16,800
It's kind of repetitive, you know, they have this way

1051
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:18,800
of doing it that gets people into it.

1052
01:02:19,199 --> 01:02:19,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1053
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:23,480
Speaker 2: And even like Dave Matthews as talking about the late nineties,

1054
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:27,079
you know, aspects of Christianity and his music or the

1055
01:02:27,079 --> 01:02:30,360
group Creed as a group in the late nineties, very

1056
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:34,159
big on over Christian themes. But you know that comes

1057
01:02:34,199 --> 01:02:37,440
also from the contimperary Christian experience, where anthems are a

1058
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:41,800
huge part of that tradition, you know, and having people

1059
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:43,559
participate together at that moment.

1060
01:02:46,079 --> 01:02:49,760
Speaker 3: In the Black Church, certain hymns are.

1061
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:56,159
Speaker 2: Certainly meant to be participatory, and there's different reasons for them.

1062
01:02:56,199 --> 01:02:58,960
One is to get you engaged, and then the other

1063
01:02:59,159 --> 01:03:03,400
is to have you reflect. That's shown by the tempo

1064
01:03:04,079 --> 01:03:06,920
and how the music is sung, the lyrics.

1065
01:03:07,079 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 4: And.

1066
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 2: That's an experience where rhythm, motion, anthemic, if that's the

1067
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:20,039
word you want to use, participation all comes together and

1068
01:03:20,079 --> 01:03:22,440
that's that's that's an experience that has not divorced those

1069
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:24,000
either to this day.

1070
01:03:24,119 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so Nicholas, I think we've

1071
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:30,559
been going for like about an hour. I would say,

1072
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:33,880
can you tell people where to find your your stuff?

1073
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:34,599
Speaker 4: Like where where?

1074
01:03:34,639 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 1: Where can we find your compositions or where can we

1075
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:38,119
be where can we engage with you?

1076
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:42,480
Speaker 2: Sure, Nicholas rieus Music dot com is my website and

1077
01:03:42,519 --> 01:03:44,840
you can see the projects I'm currently working on right

1078
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:47,920
now and they span the gamut and I would love

1079
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:50,960
for you to take a look at them, and I

1080
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:52,719
hope to see some of you at the events.

1081
01:03:55,519 --> 01:03:57,440
Speaker 1: So thanks, yeah, thanks for taking the time. You know,

1082
01:03:57,519 --> 01:03:59,960
I need to think about some of the things you said.

1083
01:04:00,239 --> 01:04:02,920
You brought me onto path that I had never been

1084
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:05,119
in terms of music, and so I'm still kind of

1085
01:04:05,639 --> 01:04:07,880
for me, music is really I mean you said it's

1086
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:09,320
a mystery, Like for me, it is kind of a

1087
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:15,880
mystery because I've always I don't understand it that well.

1088
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:19,840
I can obviously experience it, but I have to kind

1089
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:21,079
of continue my education.

1090
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 4: So thanks for the time.

1091
01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:24,880
Speaker 2: It's been a pleasure. Thank you for all of the

1092
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:27,880
interesting thoughts and the interaction. I appreciate it.

1093
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:31,280
Speaker 1: If you enjoy these videos and podcasts, please go to

1094
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:34,000
the Symbolic world dot com website and see how you

1095
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:35,239
can support what we're doing.

1096
01:04:35,519 --> 01:04:38,719
Speaker 4: There are multiple subscriber tiers with perks. There are apparel

1097
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:39,719
in books to purchase.

1098
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:42,159
Speaker 1: So go to the Symbolic World dot com and thank

1099
01:04:42,199 --> 01:04:43,360
you for your support.