Speaker 1: Meaning a light. Man like this man letting butterfly flapping
Speaker 1: his wing, big down in the forest. Man, it gonna
Speaker 1: cause the tree fall, letting five thousand miles away. Man,
Speaker 1: nobody's seen nobody else you see.
Speaker 2: You know no.
Speaker 3: Man, they like you call a story and you got
Speaker 3: dicted like that. That's the way.
Speaker 1: Man. Don't like a dang on the panel.
Speaker 3: Man, Man, you don't don't matter.
Speaker 1: Man, you cannot deny. Some of the people who tried
Speaker 1: to storm the Capitol on the sixth of January, we're
Speaker 1: holding banners which appealed to classical civilization in some way.
Speaker 1: That is undeniably true. Far right, alright racist and white
Speaker 1: supremacist groups use white classical sculptures as their logo. It
Speaker 1: doesn't take very long to sit down with someone and say, look,
Speaker 1: we've created a particular image of the classical world as
Speaker 1: if it were white. Let me show you what these
Speaker 1: sculptures once upon a time looked like they were in
Speaker 1: our view, possibly quite garish, but they didn't have that
Speaker 1: kind of sense of legitimating any kind of white supremacy
Speaker 1: at all. I find that quite reassuring because it's a
Speaker 1: wonderfully easy way to say to people stop it. You
Speaker 1: have invested and invented a kind of classical past that
Speaker 1: never existed. These are the words of Mary Beard, a
Speaker 1: seventy something year old British classicist who recently went viral
Speaker 1: for a bizarre segment of an interview which I just
Speaker 1: read you, where she claimed that so called far right racist,
Speaker 1: white supremacist like the classics and like classical statues because
Speaker 1: they are white they're unpainted marble. Aside from being a
Speaker 1: ridiculous claim on its front, I think it's an interesting
Speaker 1: prism to look at the way in which classical history
Speaker 1: has been deliberately attacked. We see it right there. She
Speaker 1: relates this eight, which on its face should be a
Speaker 1: scholarly debate about is our version of classical sculpture accurate
Speaker 1: to how they would have been seen in the day,
Speaker 1: into a direct ideological weapon. This is a way to
Speaker 1: attack people she doesn't like the January sixth rioters as example. Now,
Speaker 1: one might ask what is a seventy something year old
Speaker 1: woman from London doing talking about January sixth in the
Speaker 1: year of Our Lord twenty twenty six. And while that's
Speaker 1: a perfectly reasonable question, I think it bears a little
Speaker 1: bit of investigation into who Mary Beard is. She's sort
Speaker 1: of the perfect example of exactly what I want to
Speaker 1: talk about. She's been infamous for a long time as
Speaker 1: a BBC presenter, as a documentarian for deliberately distorting history
Speaker 1: to meet a certain progressive social sensibility. She's infamous for
Speaker 1: creating a documentary where the Roman soldiers visiting the island
Speaker 1: of Britannia were not Roman at all, right, they were
Speaker 1: at and while certainly it was possible for a man
Speaker 1: from Africa to serve in the Roman legion at that time,
Speaker 1: it's completely and totally a historical for them to be subsequent, right,
Speaker 1: we understand the North Africans were a different thing. And
Speaker 1: clearly this is not a debate about history. This is
Speaker 1: an ideological cudgel. And what I think is interesting and
Speaker 1: others have remarked upon this. There was an article going
Speaker 1: around absolutely distraught about the fact that so far so
Speaker 1: called racist, far right people were interested in the Classics,
Speaker 1: that they had sophisticated arguments that they were taking into it.
Speaker 1: And we see again clearly, for these people, these classicists,
Speaker 1: the Western canon is not their primary interest. It is
Speaker 1: simply another battleground of ideological warfare. I think, like many
Speaker 1: people have become reinterested in this field of the culture
Speaker 1: war after more footage has dropped from the upcoming Christopher
Speaker 1: Noland Odyssey movie. Almost immediately, the casting has drawn criticism
Speaker 1: put it mildly, they are not Greek, and most recently,
Speaker 1: Elliott Page, who you may remember in a previous life
Speaker 1: as the girl from Juneo, is cast in this movie,
Speaker 1: presumably as a man. And many people have looked at
Speaker 1: this and said, well, what are you doing? You know,
Speaker 1: why are you injecting this sort of modern political lens
Speaker 1: into what is supposed to be a historical drama, right,
Speaker 1: what is supposed to be a retelling of one of
Speaker 1: the oldest stories in the Western canon. And I think
Speaker 1: it's very clear, whether you look at Nolan's film, or
Speaker 1: bird Beard excuse me, or any others of these sort
Speaker 1: of progressive activist types, that we know you can only
Speaker 1: serve one master, right, you can only have one top priority.
Speaker 1: We understand this instinctively in a religious or a political sense.
Speaker 1: I mean, look at the White House. Now, there was
Speaker 1: an attempt to split the difference for a little for
Speaker 1: this and a little for that, and we saw who
Speaker 1: won out right, there's one ultimate priority. And with these people,
Speaker 1: we understand that they sort of tried to mix the
Speaker 1: Classics and progressives, and well, progress is a jealous god,
Speaker 1: of course, and look what happened, right, Any sort of
Speaker 1: historical consistency or genuine interest in the thing in and
Speaker 1: of itself is sacrificed on the altar of modern progressive sensibility.
Speaker 1: And for those who seemingly care about the canon for
Speaker 1: what it is are deeply attached to this sort of
Speaker 1: rich cultural tapestry. Well, what are that we understand there
Speaker 1: by the standards of these people, they're racists, are far right,
Speaker 1: they're horrible and my dad, of course, this is cast
Speaker 1: in explicitly a racial lens. Right. The problem with the Classics,
Speaker 1: of course, is that it benefits our enemies. This hated
Speaker 1: group makes them look good. They like it, so it
Speaker 1: must be destroyed, an attitude that would be familiar to
Speaker 1: anyone who remembers the era of gamer game. Right, anything
Speaker 1: becomes simply marked for destruction because it is liked by
Speaker 1: the outside group. What I think is additionally interesting is
Speaker 1: the age of married beer.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: She is a boomer seventy years old, and look, we
Speaker 1: can make fun of her for that, I'm sure I
Speaker 1: will in this monologue. But all the same, we've seen
Speaker 1: this same pattern, whether it is in the Church, whether
Speaker 1: it is in the classics, whether it is in any
Speaker 1: one of these fields. You saw people enter and attempt
Speaker 1: to bring whatever field they were in, whether it was theology,
Speaker 1: whether it was the Classics, in line with the sort
Speaker 1: of secular civic religion of the day. And they made
Speaker 1: a run of it, right, they mixed one with the other.
Speaker 1: But those who came after them, right, their children, either
Speaker 1: literal or ideological, well, they simply dispersed with the mixing altogether.
Speaker 1: They were no longer progressive classicists. They were simply progressives. Right.
Speaker 1: They didn't even bother with the underlying material itself is
Speaker 1: simply look at what's happened to sociology, any number of
Speaker 1: the humanities. You see the exact same thing. There's really
Speaker 1: no scholarly rigor no interest in the material as itself
Speaker 1: is simply another then you for ideological combat, for grinding
Speaker 1: those axes that work work quite familiarly. You've seen a
Speaker 1: very similar thing happen in the Catholic Church. For example,
Speaker 1: there's an infographic going around tracking the political leanings of
Speaker 1: priests in the Catholic Church. Unsurprisingly, and look, I'm not Catholic,
Speaker 1: so if I get this wrong, forgive me, but I'm
Speaker 1: surprisingly right. Before and after Vatican Two it's predominantly quite liberal,
Speaker 1: least by the standards of the day, and since then,
Speaker 1: right in the sixty years sex it is shifted over
Speaker 1: and over and over again to the right. As a
Speaker 1: current writing, I think it's well over eight in ten
Speaker 1: described to themselves as staunchly concerned. And why is that. Well,
Speaker 1: if you grow up with a liberal priest, if you
Speaker 1: have a liberal classics professor who mixes their progressivism with
Speaker 1: the Church, or the progressivism with Homer, well they may
Speaker 1: have in their mind desired to create sort of syncratic religion.
Speaker 1: But the men, I say, the men, the people who
Speaker 1: followed after them, certainly didn't. They became progressives full stop.
Speaker 1: You've seen this in the propst mainline denominations. You see
Speaker 1: this over and over again, that jealous God will not
Speaker 1: abide a divided loyal and those who stayed, those who
Speaker 1: loved that institution, that tradition for what it was, well,
Speaker 1: they simply cannot be progressive. Their love for their church,
Speaker 1: their love for Christ their love for the tradition is
Speaker 1: incompatible with this secular, progressive, godless state cult. I see
Speaker 1: this in my own religious institution. It's very interesting, and
Speaker 1: I'm sure many of my listeners will experienced the same
Speaker 1: thing traditionally in my state. Traditionally, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: as long as anyone has been alive, the assumption has
Speaker 1: been that young people are more liberal, more progressive, as
Speaker 1: we would say, currently than their elders. Right, that is
Speaker 1: sort of the long arc of history, sort of a mlkay.
Speaker 1: And that's been broke. Not in raw aggregate numbers, of course,
Speaker 1: we understand, but at institutions, right. The people who care,
Speaker 1: the people who show up, the people who wanted to
Speaker 1: go to church because they wanted to go to church,
Speaker 1: the people who wanted to read Homer because they love Homer,
Speaker 1: well they love that thing. It comes first and foremost.
Speaker 1: And those who were there for the political nonsense, well
Speaker 1: they can find that stronger somewhere else. Why would you
Speaker 1: go with an adulterated water down version, can go for
Speaker 1: the full strength stuff. And so it's created this bizarre
Speaker 1: dynamic where older people like Mary Beard in their seventies
Speaker 1: are very uncomfortable with the fact that they're presumed allies,
Speaker 1: that the vanguard they assumed they'd have, have really nothing
Speaker 1: in common with them at all, that they care about
Speaker 1: the tradition, whatever that tradition is. And it's created a
Speaker 1: really interesting dynamic. I mentioned churches. I'm sure you can
Speaker 1: see it in your own institutions. And this flailing right,
Speaker 1: this desire of if it can't be progressive, it must
Speaker 1: be destroyed, is again something we see across culture that
Speaker 1: once they realize that they're outflanked, once they realized that
Speaker 1: the next generation will not carry on well seemingly, the
Speaker 1: instinct is to burn it down, to torch it, to
Speaker 1: destroy the whole thing. This kind of spiteful lashing out. Obviously,
Speaker 1: you see this with a desire to diminish everything right
Speaker 1: about the field that launched this woman into prominence. I
Speaker 1: wrote an essay a while back called the Tyranny of
Speaker 1: just It. It's a dramatic name forgiven talking about the
Speaker 1: blank is just that that statue? Right, the defeated goal, Well,
Speaker 1: it's just a piece of rock covered in garish colors. Right,
Speaker 1: it looked like Disneyland. It's not white. Now, I'll be
Speaker 1: the first to admit this, Maybe I didn't know as
Speaker 1: a kid that these statues were painted, But simply by
Speaker 1: being a white stone did not indicate to me that
Speaker 1: it was like racially white. I mean, obviously the French guy.
Speaker 1: If depending on how Ben Franklin pild you are, we
Speaker 1: can debate that specifically. But of course you have to understand, right,
Speaker 1: this is not a legitimate critique. You see that there.
Speaker 1: She is not making that claim because she is sincerely
Speaker 1: interested in preservation or the processing of teaching this information.
Speaker 1: It's a tire to destroy. It's a desire to say, oh,
Speaker 1: that thing you like, it's not special, there's nothing to it.
Speaker 1: It's not yours, it's nothing. The thing that I have
Speaker 1: built my life on, it is nothing. You see this
Speaker 1: in churches. The reason I keep using this as an example,
Speaker 1: it's because fundamentally this is a religious disagreement. Regardless of
Speaker 1: your opinion on the Trinity or whatever, you can see
Speaker 1: that this is ultimately a war of belief, a war
Speaker 1: pure ideological claims right, truth claims what is wrong? And
Speaker 1: in a church context, right you can think of any
Speaker 1: number of institutions where at the moment the progressive loss,
Speaker 1: they tried to burn it to the ground. Right This
Speaker 1: happened in many Presbyterian denominations when the social progressivism of
Speaker 1: twenty five years ago primarily focused on the ordination of women,
Speaker 1: and those churches have continued in that direction. When people
Speaker 1: sow it to leave, it was scorched earth. Was oh
Speaker 1: that building you and your community has been in for
Speaker 1: two hundred years. If you want to leave, if you
Speaker 1: won't take mandated female clergy, if you won't perform gay marriages,
Speaker 1: you can't have it. It's hours we're taking it away
Speaker 1: from you. We don't have a use for it, but
Speaker 1: you can't have it. And it's the same desire we
Speaker 1: see over and over and over again, that desire. If
Speaker 1: I can't win, you must lose. And it's really encouraging
Speaker 1: to me that Beard and others are scared, right, they
Speaker 1: understand that their grip on this is slipping, because whether
Speaker 1: it's religious tradition, whether it's the Western canon, it is
Speaker 1: bigger than these people. It is bigger than this sort
Speaker 1: of cheap chiency twenty first century politic, which I think
Speaker 1: is really what bothered me and many others about this
Speaker 1: recent Nolan film, which okay, fair I haven't seen, but
Speaker 1: you look at the previous you understand what I mean
Speaker 1: that it feels as if something sacred is being dragged
Speaker 1: through the mud. Maybe not literally sacred, of course, but
Speaker 1: the feeling this, if this is being cheap, and that's
Speaker 1: something that is timeless, something that is deeply human that
Speaker 1: me and an air conditioned classroom in twenty fifteen can
Speaker 1: read thousands of years after it was composed and connect
Speaker 1: with They are mine, We are part of the same thing.
Speaker 1: There's a deep connection there. And similarly, right when you
Speaker 1: pick your religious text, I don't want to speak to
Speaker 1: whichever book you read of, but nonetheless, this is something
Speaker 1: that has been passed through time, the people have thought
Speaker 1: was important, the word of God itself, and to see
Speaker 1: that being dragged through this kind of trash, right, the
Speaker 1: kind of daily grind politics is rightfully irritating to people,
Speaker 1: because what draws young men to the classics, what draws
Speaker 1: young men to church, is not really the culture war.
Speaker 1: In some way, it is right that the desire to
Speaker 1: react against something that feels say threatening, but something that
Speaker 1: feels wrong, but also the idea to tie yourself to
Speaker 1: all yourself to something that is bigger than you, that
Speaker 1: is your civilization, right where you came from, and it's
Speaker 1: especially rich coming from people in their seventies, people like
Speaker 1: Mary Beard, who grew up in a time in which
Speaker 1: there was a social fabric, who grew up in a
Speaker 1: time in which you could say an Englishman, you could
Speaker 1: say an American, and something could quickly pop to mind,
Speaker 1: something that you could put yourself into, a canon in
Speaker 1: its own right of figures and attitudes you could index
Speaker 1: yourself to. That is how one is a good Englishman.
Speaker 1: That's how one is a good America. And to see
Speaker 1: someone who grew up in that, who's presided over and
Speaker 1: in her case and many others fostered and encouraged this
Speaker 1: kind of culturalist era, it's a bit rich, right, It's
Speaker 1: a bit rich because you look at it and you say,
Speaker 1: look what you have wrought, right, look at the world
Speaker 1: you have created. You grew up bearing none of the cost.
Speaker 1: And now that the bill has come due, you look
Speaker 1: at people who are unhappy with that, and you say, no,
Speaker 1: you racist, white supremacist, thug, you idiot, you moron, I'm
Speaker 1: going to burn it down. And that attitude, I think
Speaker 1: is all too typical. And I think when we look
Speaker 1: at the canon, right, when you look at the Christian tradition.
Speaker 1: Pick whichever one you you like best. I think we
Speaker 1: have to understand that they are rightly afraid, that they
Speaker 1: are attempting to destroy something which is much much bigger
Speaker 1: than that beard or god awful documentaries, this film. They're trash.
Speaker 1: They will be forgotten. They will not be preserved through
Speaker 1: thousands of years, like Homer, like the scriptures, like the
Speaker 1: pieces of art. Were ostensibly debating because for these people,
Speaker 1: they are simply one of many fields of combat. Right,
Speaker 1: they'll move on to something else. We've seen it over
Speaker 1: and over again, and so to me it's worth discussing
Speaker 1: because it's an attitude we see all too often. But
Speaker 1: I'm not afraid of these people either. Should you be.
Speaker 1: They're flailing, they don't know what they're doing, and I
Speaker 1: think they will be sorely disappointed to see their god
Speaker 1: awful intellectual cull the sack coming to an end. Because
Speaker 1: those who care about the classics, those who care about
Speaker 1: the church going forward, care about it for its own
Speaker 1: intrinsic value, not simply as a way to wage this
Speaker 1: culture war. And so I think in many cases, to
Speaker 1: quote to quote Dave, the distributist right, we have a
Speaker 1: monopoly on the men who care, and in my mind,
Speaker 1: that's encouraging. So, guys, this has been a little bit
Speaker 1: of experiment from me. I've decided to start appending these
Speaker 1: monologues to the front of my podcast interviews, sort of
Speaker 1: an imitation of Tucker I think he does a good
Speaker 1: job of it, but also as sort of a primer
Speaker 1: to the episode. So this episode is with my buddies
Speaker 1: over at Dual Stalty. Great podcast talk about the Western
Speaker 1: tradition classics, both funny and informative. It's a good episode.
Speaker 1: You guys should check out their work. I've already done
Speaker 1: an episode with them BEFO. You guys really seem to
Speaker 1: enjoy it, and let them know I sent you. This
Speaker 1: episode is sponsored, as they all are. I'm going to
Speaker 1: probably do the sponsorships here instead of at the end.
Speaker 1: But as usual by Axios Remote Fitness Coaching JD helps
Speaker 1: me out a lot. So if you were interested at
Speaker 1: all in improving your fitness becoming like a Greek statue,
Speaker 1: one might say, head over to Axios. What a mil
Speaker 1: I sent you. Other than that, guys, you know how
Speaker 1: it is supported by listeners like you five bucks a month.
Speaker 1: Episodes early in ad free and thought further. Ado dou
Speaker 1: A Stalty, thank you very much. All right, Duo Stalty,
Speaker 1: welcome to the j Burns Show. You guys doing, hey
Speaker 1: man doing all right? Yeah, I'm glad to have you
Speaker 1: back on. I was planning on having you on anyway,
Speaker 1: and then I had to crash out about an episode
Speaker 1: I will not be airing boof chat and you guys
Speaker 1: were like, oh, hey, how about we come on instead
Speaker 1: of you putting up that? And I was like, you
Speaker 1: know what, good idea, And honestly, I'm glad to have
Speaker 1: you on anyway because last time I was at a
Speaker 1: pretty ni I had the flu, so I was even
Speaker 1: more retarded than normal. But that said, good to see
Speaker 1: you guys here.
Speaker 3: Good to see you last time your episode with us
Speaker 3: on it gave us like a huge bump, A lot
Speaker 3: of a lot of Jay Burden listeners migrated over and
Speaker 3: I for that, I am very very thankful, and we
Speaker 3: are very very thankful.
Speaker 2: We're basically doing you a favor at this point.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, we're helping out the little guy.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing with podcasting is you can look at
Speaker 1: it two ways. Either it's a feudal system or it's
Speaker 1: a giant multi level marketing scheme, and it kind of
Speaker 1: depends on how positively you view the whole thing.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, do elaborate on how you see it as
Speaker 3: a feudal system, because we had an hour and a
Speaker 3: half long argument about this in an episode.
Speaker 1: Because basically, what happens and I just want to say,
Speaker 1: at this point in the podcasting world, I'm like a
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm even like a baron yet.
Speaker 1: I'm probably like a particularly up at a night but
Speaker 1: what happens is and honestly, the more I say this,
Speaker 1: the more this analogy falls apart. But that's never stopped
Speaker 1: me before. But effectively, you start out you're a surf,
Speaker 1: you're nobody, and then you have to you have to
Speaker 1: find someone to sort of attach yourself to you in
Speaker 1: sort of a mentor mentee, and then once you get
Speaker 1: to a certain point, you get to have your own serfs,
Speaker 1: and really no one actually gets any better, it's just
Speaker 1: you fill in below them. So that's the kind of
Speaker 1: like multi level marketing part of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, I've been actually planning on expanding our operations to India,
Speaker 2: so we're in the works of translating the podcast and
Speaker 2: Hindi right now. So its yeah, we're gonna spread out
Speaker 2: the multi level marketing and hopefully hit that very valuable demographic.
Speaker 1: Did you guys catch the Dogan crash out?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 3: You know what it reminded me of. It's that video
Speaker 3: of the Greek and the Turk fighting on Omeigal and
Speaker 3: the guys like, I am more white than you. You
Speaker 3: are see brown? Oh That's all I could think about
Speaker 3: when seeing him go, I'm more white than you.
Speaker 1: Well, it's also it's just like it's very much the
Speaker 1: like but Alex who asked you?
Speaker 3: Like, I don't want to name names, but I do
Speaker 3: remember for a few years before this, there have been
Speaker 3: some very prominent people on the right that have have
Speaker 3: have held Dugan in high regard and like, this isn't
Speaker 3: a shocking thing. If you look at anything that Dugan's
Speaker 3: put out, it's all third world eight man drivel. And
Speaker 3: you know, I don't know. Now some people are like, wow,
Speaker 3: he's saying all this. I'm like, you didn't notice this? Like, well,
Speaker 3: I won't name.
Speaker 1: Names, but here's the thing, Like, at least part of this,
Speaker 1: I think is people not being able to be adults
Speaker 1: and realize that a guy can both have said or
Speaker 1: read interesting things and also be by and large a
Speaker 1: complete moron. Like you know, you can. You can look
Speaker 1: at someone and be like, Okay, that's an interesting idea
Speaker 1: and then look to like paragraph two and be like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, that's not good. I don't like that. And
Speaker 1: so the like ninety five IQ being like, oh you
Speaker 1: you read a book by Dugan that lets mean you
Speaker 1: agree with this. It's like, okay, come on, please, the
Speaker 1: adults are speaking, go back to the kids table.
Speaker 3: And on the flip side, the people that are like,
Speaker 3: whoa Dugan said this? He's based He's gonna save the West,
Speaker 3: and you're like, no, hold on, no hold on, buddy, Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's it's you know, I think the quality of discourse
Speaker 3: on the right has really really gone down as the
Speaker 3: internet access is spread across the world, because now you
Speaker 3: have you know, twenty five billion Africans and Indians, you know,
Speaker 3: going ha, I'm based trad LARPer fourteen eighty eight. You know,
Speaker 3: I'm the true Rian son of Hyperborea, and this is
Speaker 3: why you should support you know, Sneako or Dan Blazarian
Speaker 3: for Congress. And I'm like, you know, does anything anything anymore?
Speaker 3: I have this, you know, this is we had a
Speaker 3: discussion about this. This is why I also don't like when
Speaker 3: they all start talking about the Roman Empires. I'm like, look,
Speaker 3: you're too IQ to talk, too low IQ to talk
Speaker 3: about this.
Speaker 1: Like, well, yeah, Titus, I completely agree. And this is
Speaker 1: why I have simply seceded from discourse and really endeavored
Speaker 1: to make this a show about nothing, just.
Speaker 3: The Seinfeld podcasts.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and you know what, just like Seinfeld, I
Speaker 1: too have a certain ancestry. I am a proud Jewish
Speaker 1: man living in New York. But in all seriousness, guys,
Speaker 1: your show primarily covers the classics. And there's been sort
Speaker 1: of two, in my mind, kind of interesting developments. Right One,
Speaker 1: you have this this Nolan movie right coming up, which, boy,
Speaker 1: my expectations were low, but somehow it seems to be
Speaker 1: even worse than I think we could have expected. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then I think that that is kind of kicked
Speaker 1: up increased scrutiny of the classics, because this is, you know,
Speaker 1: a pretty obvious attempt to kind of inject, you know,
Speaker 1: a modern political lens on a classic poetic epic. And
Speaker 1: so people have turned to a clip of one Mary
Speaker 1: Beard basically talking about a sort of deliberate endeavor to
Speaker 1: try and make the classics less appealing to the quote
Speaker 1: unquote far right. So those are the two things I
Speaker 1: want to hit. But to start off at the top,
Speaker 1: I assume you guys have been have seen the advertisement
Speaker 1: for the new Olan Nolan Odyssey movie. Correct.
Speaker 3: This is how I know you're not a true listener,
Speaker 3: because we had a ten minute long rant about that
Speaker 3: in the latest episode.
Speaker 2: You see. Okay, could I make an alternative defense for it,
Speaker 2: because I agree there's probably no hope, but I would
Speaker 2: like to believe there's a chance. And the one example
Speaker 2: I'll give is Starship Troopers was very intentionally not supposed
Speaker 2: to be the movie it came out to be, and
Speaker 2: as a representation of kind of hind Lines fascist isn't
Speaker 2: the right word, but a like republican sort of ideal
Speaker 2: in the more classical sense, right, And that movie ended
Speaker 2: up coming out and it was a great expression of
Speaker 2: Hindline's ideas, despite Berhoman's kind of attempt to make it otherwise.
Speaker 2: Perhaps perhaps there is some underlying message in this steaming
Speaker 2: pile of dog shit that no one has, you know,
Speaker 2: dug around the dirtiest trash heap in India. For I'm
Speaker 2: hoping that that's what ends up happening, is that despite
Speaker 2: the terrible aesthetic of it, it somehow undermines what it's
Speaker 2: actually trying to do and be subversive. But outside of that, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's going to be. It's going to be so plenty awful.
Speaker 2: I mean, we talked about different ways to do it.
Speaker 2: If you're gonna do so, A lot of people said,
Speaker 2: you can do Eggers because he does all these historical dramas.
Speaker 2: You could also do it like an actual play. There's
Speaker 2: just I think he does moon Rise Kingdom would would
Speaker 2: be really good at doing Wes Anderson. Yeah, I think
Speaker 2: a Wes Anderson version of it would be really unique
Speaker 2: if you were to do it in sort of a
Speaker 2: play style.
Speaker 3: But I just thought of like the stuff Fox, George
Speaker 3: Clooney doing it being Odysseus.
Speaker 2: But I mean, like, like, if you think about fantastic
Speaker 2: mister Fox, wouldn't that be like a great way to
Speaker 2: do all the sort of monsters that he encounters in the.
Speaker 3: That's kind of like I was gonna say, like that.
Speaker 3: That's the other angle to take it from is either
Speaker 3: go his super historically accurate or do something like over
Speaker 3: other or art Thou. Yeah, you know where it's like
Speaker 3: that's the Odyssey, but it's not, you know, it's it's
Speaker 3: not or you know I brought up in the episode.
Speaker 3: I was like, if you look, if you're gonna want
Speaker 3: to make something hip and modern, like it's a batshit
Speaker 3: insane movie, but the nineties Romeo and Juliet with Leonardo DiCaprio.
Speaker 3: It's like, you know, that's at least a bold statement.
Speaker 2: Oh, the Genghis Khan movie too. The Ginghis is really
Speaker 2: good soccer. Yeah, the Genghakanvy is legitimately really good with
Speaker 2: John Wayne playing Genghis Khan. There's not a single ethnic Mongol,
Speaker 2: and I believe they have a Native American playing like
Speaker 2: the antagonist Jamuka. I believe it is the name and
Speaker 2: it's asmatic and yeah, it's right. It might be like
Speaker 2: a some sort of thing like it's based on secret
Speaker 2: history of the Mongols, and it's relatively accurate portrayal both
Speaker 2: in kind of the spirit, more than three hundred would be.
Speaker 2: And it's just completely like there's so many ways. Man,
Speaker 2: I'm so upset by this. You have no idea the.
Speaker 3: Thing that makes me upset. Sorry, Jay, do you want
Speaker 3: to if I cook?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 3: The thing that really makes me upset is that it
Speaker 3: shows a broader trend. I'm gonna become. I'm gonna say
Speaker 3: some gay artist stuff here, but it's a reflects a
Speaker 3: broader trend in arts and music nowadays that is playing
Speaker 3: it safe and still sucking. Right, because if you look back,
Speaker 3: there's a lot of movies in music that were made
Speaker 3: during it's kind of that like I would say probably
Speaker 3: nineteen sixties to nineteen nineties. It is kind of golden
Speaker 3: age of mass media that did not play it safe
Speaker 3: at all, and a lot of them did suck. But
Speaker 3: you can look at something like, you know, trying to
Speaker 3: think of a good You can look at like Styx's
Speaker 3: Mister Roboto and you can go, man, this album's not
Speaker 3: very good, but you know what they went for it,
Speaker 3: And I still can appreciate that. The worst thing for
Speaker 3: me is when an artist plays it safe to avoid
Speaker 3: failing and they still fail, because that's just the ultimate
Speaker 3: dereliction of your duty as an artist, Right, What are
Speaker 3: you gonna do make marveloid slop that still sucks? You know,
Speaker 3: become like it's like Disney Star Wars. It's like there's
Speaker 3: they're not actually doing anything new or innovative and they're
Speaker 3: still sucking.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well it's like that you're taking the safe option
Speaker 1: and you're still not not doing anything with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well because and here's the thing. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I recently watched the Coen Brothers movie Hail Caesar, Yeah right,
Speaker 1: which is you know, sort of making fun of you know,
Speaker 1: the sword and sandal epics of another era. And it's funny,
Speaker 1: it's a good movie. It's the message of it is
Speaker 1: surprisingly you could say like traditionalist, right if you have
Speaker 1: the eyes to see interesting film. But point is right.
Speaker 1: You look at even the kind of you know, most
Speaker 1: over the top kind of historical movies of that era,
Speaker 1: and you can't say they didn't try, right. There's a
Speaker 1: ton of effort put into it. And even if it's
Speaker 1: like a little corny and like the dialogue is perhaps
Speaker 1: a little bit to like leave it to beaver for
Speaker 1: kind of modern sensibilities, it's like, all right, there's something there, and.
Speaker 3: There's an earnestness. There's an earnestness.
Speaker 1: And to your point, Titus about the kind of like
Speaker 1: taking the safe option and even managing to mess that up.
Speaker 1: That just kind of drives me crazy because if if
Speaker 1: we were looking at this film and it was just
Speaker 1: it was it didn't look good, but it looked really weird, Like, oh,
Speaker 1: I haven't seen anything like this before, Like, let's give
Speaker 1: it a shot, you know, like they're be least some interest.
Speaker 1: But this really does seem to be the corn of
Speaker 1: the sort of like direct to like Amazon style with
Speaker 1: a two hundred and fifty million dollar project.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And that's the other thing as well, because people
Speaker 3: will go like, well, sometimes they have to you know,
Speaker 3: placate the you know, executives and the money people. And
Speaker 3: I'm like, this is Christopher Nolan, Dude, He's one of
Speaker 3: the few directors nowadays that could just do anything he
Speaker 3: wanted and get paid for it.
Speaker 1: Well do you do? You all know who? Uh? Elliott
Speaker 1: Page is supposed to play in this because I've heard
Speaker 1: people saying it's Achilles, but I looked that up. I
Speaker 1: cannot confirm it.
Speaker 3: I think it'd be really funny if Elliott Page played
Speaker 3: Helen of Troy and did the proper ancient Greek thing
Speaker 3: of having men, well, you know, it would be sorry,
Speaker 3: a woman passing as a man playing a woman.
Speaker 1: They were like three levels deep of Yeah, we talked
Speaker 1: about that.
Speaker 2: Actually probably is the most accurate casting if we're to
Speaker 2: go with a historical accuracy some weird a woman. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's why it should be technically right.
Speaker 3: Well, and the thing is that it's it's some black
Speaker 3: broad who's who's Helen and Troy? And again it's like, look,
Speaker 3: if you want to make a black Helen and Troy,
Speaker 3: that's fine, you know, put you know, it's it's the Odyssey,
Speaker 3: but in the Bronx or something like that. They're going
Speaker 3: they're going from you know, we joked about this.
Speaker 2: And we're going from home to pick up their EBT card.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like, look the Odyssey, you know you want to
Speaker 3: you want to put a black Helen de Troy? Great,
Speaker 3: you go for we gotta take this. They go from Troy,
Speaker 3: New York to Ithaca, New York and.
Speaker 2: The hell Cat of theseus.
Speaker 1: If every part has been stolen off of it, is
Speaker 1: it still the same hell Cat?
Speaker 3: But you know, like I said, we like that. That's
Speaker 3: the thing is like, look, you want to make your
Speaker 3: like that's why I there's a more deliberate subversion of
Speaker 3: everything here is that Like if they wanted to make
Speaker 3: an interesting and unique story with all the race swap stuff.
Speaker 3: There are so many ways to do it in a
Speaker 3: way that would be creative and groundbreaking. But no, their
Speaker 3: whole thing is we need to completely erase this very
Speaker 3: foundational text of you know, Western culture. And not only that,
Speaker 3: but the dialogue is just got off. This is why
Speaker 3: Emily Wilson should be drawn and cortered.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's a reasonable ask. The uh,
Speaker 1: it's the look of it too, is kind of odd
Speaker 1: to me because look, like I get it. There is
Speaker 1: the like Hollywood version of the Classic World, which is
Speaker 1: not historically accurate.
Speaker 3: But this is the Marvel version of the hundred percent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like the poster is this kind of like like,
Speaker 1: I guess you would call it like a piano black
Speaker 1: Greek helmet with like an edgy like human spine covered
Speaker 1: in gold. Have either of you guys ever seen the
Speaker 1: fan made Astartes short film?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yeah, really good right? Just some guy made
Speaker 1: it technically impressive?
Speaker 3: Is that the one he made his own chapter?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it got just like nuked from orbit by
Speaker 1: James Warkshow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was gonna say, I was like, I'm trying
Speaker 3: to remember that it was that one. Oh what a
Speaker 3: shame g W. Plus, I wonder if anyone still subscribes
Speaker 3: to that.
Speaker 1: Oh no, I just pirated in Spanish off telegram. But
Speaker 1: point is, the reason I bring it up is, yeah,
Speaker 1: pretty much, it's just like Space Marines marching to Viva Espanya.
Speaker 1: But point is, do you guys remember the two like
Speaker 1: psychic villains in that kind of the only reason I
Speaker 1: bring it up is they look literally exactly like the
Speaker 1: poster to this movie. Like, it looks like someone basically
Speaker 1: copy pasted, and like, if that's a design that comes
Speaker 1: out in some guy's self made sci fi and made
Speaker 1: it short, you're like, that's sick. But if it is
Speaker 1: a high budget Hollywood version of you know, one of
Speaker 1: Homer's epics, it's you know, it's weird. It's kind of
Speaker 1: like it's like TMU version basically.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yep, it's it's just it's it's it's depressing. And
Speaker 3: you know what, the best version of the Odyssey was
Speaker 3: already made and is made by the Coen Brothers, and
Speaker 3: it features the Soggy Bottom Boys, so we don't even
Speaker 3: have to acknowledge this.
Speaker 1: Christopher Nolan Slope, I mean I will go see it
Speaker 1: because it looks bad enough to be entertaining.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to see it because I will leave
Speaker 3: the theater with a felony.
Speaker 1: You'll you'll turn into a teen. Uh.
Speaker 3: I saw one that was despicable goon. I'm going to
Speaker 3: turn into a.
Speaker 1: Despicable, despicable goon, motivated by by righteous anger for the
Speaker 1: I'll I'll.
Speaker 3: Be a changing consumer? Uh? Was it changing consumer habit habits?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: So I want to pivot to this clip from Mary Bird,
Speaker 1: and I want to say both to let you guys
Speaker 1: know and to let the audience know. Stealing a page
Speaker 1: from Tucker's homework. This will be the first episode of
Speaker 1: my show with a monologue, so you guys will have
Speaker 1: heard this clip in that monologue. Working on a little something.
Speaker 1: We'll see how it turns out. If you get to
Speaker 1: this point, just tell me if you think it's gay
Speaker 1: or not, and as we can adjust from there. But
Speaker 1: point is, I think it was interesting one because it's
Speaker 1: pretty clear that this woman is not particularly intelligent, and
Speaker 1: also because again the level of just kind of pure
Speaker 1: resentment in it is kind of shocking. I assume both
Speaker 1: of you all have seen this clips.
Speaker 3: Oh yes, I've seen it, but I've been trying to
Speaker 3: avoid stuff like this, but it is good for the
Speaker 3: show for us to talk about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's an ogre wench effected, like she legitimately looks evil,
Speaker 2: you know how some people have that it sort of
Speaker 2: oozes off of the It's like the rold Doll cartoon.
Speaker 2: She uses that. Yeah, awful person, and everything she's done
Speaker 2: for Roman education has been pretty pretty terrible, you know.
Speaker 1: Ironically enough, she did make effectively the same argument that
Speaker 1: Hassan Piker did about nine to eleven. Or she was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: American deserved it, which is, to be honest, funnier than
Speaker 1: anything she said said.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one of her stronger arguments for sure.
Speaker 3: For sure, I think, like I don't know, I deliberately
Speaker 3: try to avoid like authorities on historical subjects because a
Speaker 3: lot of times it turns into this kind of stuff
Speaker 3: like you look at you take one look at Mary
Speaker 3: Beard and you go, Okay, this is some dumb broad
Speaker 3: who got into classics as partially as a way to
Speaker 3: completely undermine it and hollow it out from the inside.
Speaker 3: You know, there's a few Well, if you're a woman,
Speaker 3: I'm straight up just not gonna listen to you. If
Speaker 3: you're a guy and you talk about anything related to
Speaker 3: like certain sexual dynamics, I'm not going to listen to you.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 3: If you're like a historical expert on military history, I'm
Speaker 3: gonna you're the probably autistic enough that you know what
Speaker 3: you're talking about.
Speaker 1: And there's a.
Speaker 3: Few people that I will like still enjoy their opinions
Speaker 3: on even though they do they are kind of libtarted.
Speaker 3: Anthony Carldellis is a great, great source on the Byzantine Empire,
Speaker 3: but sometimes he just gets a little lib tarted here
Speaker 3: and there, but to his credit, he does not let
Speaker 3: it affect his historiography of the Byzantines.
Speaker 2: Same thing Tom Holland. Tom Holland is a lib Dem
Speaker 2: voter very openly, but when you read like Uh Dominion
Speaker 2: and the rest of his works on Rome, and they
Speaker 2: come across as either neutral and sometimes even pro the Caesars,
Speaker 2: whereas Mary Beard is very explicit she conceptualized, conceptualizes Rome
Speaker 2: as basically masculine, which is bad, and it just it
Speaker 2: groups all of those things together. Everything the Romans do
Speaker 2: is awful. Everything that Roman women like Libya Augustus's wife
Speaker 2: do is amazing, and that's the end of the story.
Speaker 2: And if you like Roman history and you're a white guy,
Speaker 2: it's because you're a race. You know, all the standard
Speaker 2: sort of accusations that get thrown out. It's very it's
Speaker 2: very obnoxious, and she is pretty high up, and I
Speaker 2: think she's in the Royal Academy of like Roman History
Speaker 2: or some bs. It's very obnoxiously. Yet the clip was
Speaker 2: just another atrocity of like her thinking, which I think
Speaker 2: it's a good thing because these people are on the out,
Speaker 2: I believe personally, I hope.
Speaker 1: So this is technically on topic, but only barely. Her
Speaker 1: list of controversies is very funny, and so there's one
Speaker 1: this I was finding her. I was trying to find
Speaker 1: her early life. Turns out she's just British. But anyway, nevertheless,
Speaker 1: I did find London. Yeah, yes, yes, of course, yeah,
Speaker 1: this is the city of London. That How could I forget?
Speaker 1: Uh I was gonna say something nasty there, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do it. I'll end that put
Speaker 1: a pin in it. Uh So, point is, in twenty eighteen,
Speaker 1: there was there was a report that Oxfam, which is
Speaker 1: like a massive NGO, had had been doing some some
Speaker 1: raping in disaster zones her tweet. Of course, one can't
Speaker 1: condone the alleged behavior of Oxfam staff and Haiti and elsewhere,
Speaker 1: but I do wonder how hard it must be to
Speaker 1: sustain civilized values in a disaster zone.
Speaker 3: That's such a that's like the Avolean spirit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, basically just like Colonel Kurtz, you know, for her. Yes,
Speaker 1: that is in London.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's a very Hey. I hail that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I do.
Speaker 3: I I'll always love like a load bearing butt in
Speaker 3: a statement. And you see, you'll see something that's like
Speaker 3: I'm against you know, the violation of corpse, you know,
Speaker 3: something just like I'm against killing puppies button. You're like,
Speaker 3: what it's like how Sam France I think it's Sam
Speaker 3: Francis like has uh uh In one of his examples
Speaker 3: of an arco tyranny, he has like a whole long
Speaker 3: thing about child pornography and then afterwards just leads with
Speaker 3: like afterwards just gives a pretty basic example of a
Speaker 3: property dispute. And you're like, oh, you could have led
Speaker 3: with like you don't have to you don't have to
Speaker 3: die on this hill man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know, exactly what you're talking about where
Speaker 1: and to be fair, like I get his point, so
Speaker 1: I yeah, like the power.
Speaker 3: There are certain things that you just don't bring up,
Speaker 3: like it's okay, we can you know, there's third rails
Speaker 3: you can touch, and then there are third rails that
Speaker 3: are perfectly fine to be left where they are because
Speaker 3: they're not important enough.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's like, okay, I totally understand that from
Speaker 1: like a constitutional law perspective, sending a guy to prison
Speaker 1: for twenty years because you've got a traffic stop and
Speaker 1: notice some CP I understand that is technically illegal. However,
Speaker 1: can't we just, like I don't know, strap into a
Speaker 1: boulder and like shoot him into the ocean or something
Speaker 1: like you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like I just I don't really want to be
Speaker 3: the guy that dies on that hill. And but going
Speaker 3: tell me more about Mary Beard's controversies because I'm very interested.
Speaker 1: Oh that's really the only funny one. Every other one
Speaker 1: is her saying something stupid and then getting really mad
Speaker 1: when people say she's stupid. So she was. I didn't realize.
Speaker 1: But if you've seen that clip going around talking about
Speaker 1: Rome and Britain where they made all the soldiers brothers,
Speaker 1: which you know, depending how Ben Franklin pilled you are,
Speaker 1: could be fairly accurate. But and then basically her saying
Speaker 1: like how dare these vile misogynists take objection to what
Speaker 1: I said just a British woman effectively.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's again, that's another thing that like, you know,
Speaker 3: if I am to appin a little bit on this
Speaker 3: kind of revisionism I think we have done in the past,
Speaker 3: I don't want to just go over it again. The
Speaker 3: one white pill I will say is that we're so
Speaker 3: beyond the point of realistic nature, like you know, we're
Speaker 3: at the point now with the liberal revisionism that like recconning,
Speaker 3: not reccon that's not the right word, but like red
Speaker 3: you know, rectroactively going back and saying someone's like secretly
Speaker 3: gay is kind of like old hat. That's kind of quaint,
Speaker 3: you know, it's like, oh, you know, that's at least
Speaker 3: you know, the guy who never married once in his
Speaker 3: you know, fifty year long reign. You know, Okay, well
Speaker 3: that's bullshit, but that's more believable than black Roman soldiers
Speaker 3: in Britains, or Cleopatra being black, or you know.
Speaker 2: Very Mary Beard will have her head shoved into a
Speaker 2: toilet by a pack standing migrant who's stabbing her and
Speaker 2: try to explain why multiculturalism is a good thing, Like.
Speaker 3: It's a well in the thing that but the white
Speaker 3: pill is that like, I don't think. I think that
Speaker 3: there was a period of time where a bunch of
Speaker 3: women started women in eunuchs essentially started taking having a
Speaker 3: lot of influence in history and classics and stuff. And
Speaker 3: I just don't see a lot of young Like when
Speaker 3: I look at the people that are into history now,
Speaker 3: it's really none of tho, Like they haven't created any
Speaker 3: proper successors, whereas the autistic chud white men have remained
Speaker 3: into history like they always have been.
Speaker 1: Well, so I've got a question. Are either of you religious?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I am a very strong Presbyterian because predestination is correct.
Speaker 1: I you and I have something in common. Uh. Well,
Speaker 1: so point is if you both answered yes to this,
Speaker 1: you'll see exactly what I mean. Where the people who
Speaker 1: initially started with either religion or the classics and used
Speaker 1: it as a way to sort of smuggle their politics
Speaker 1: in and as a sort of attack vector, their children
Speaker 1: just dispensed with whatever they were mixing progressive politics with
Speaker 1: and that became their whole thing. So you see this
Speaker 1: in for instance, the turnover in the Catholic Church, right
Speaker 1: that you know, their priests were predominantly liberal in nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty it's now dramatically conservative. What explains it, well, basically,
Speaker 1: if you listen to a liberal priest, you became very
Speaker 1: liberal and you dropped being a Catholic.
Speaker 3: In average.
Speaker 1: You saw a very similar thing doing happen inside the
Speaker 1: Presbyteria denominations, where you know, if you look at the
Speaker 1: mainline churches, they're all old, gay and dead, whereas you know,
Speaker 1: in the more kind of conservative traditional denominations, it's exploding,
Speaker 1: you know. And so I think that there's a similar
Speaker 1: thing happening with the Classics, where especially as there's a
Speaker 1: lot less and less money in it, it seems as
Speaker 1: if the only people who are still in it either
Speaker 1: have you know, a sort of a sort of you know,
Speaker 1: Mary Beard style like legacy money injection so that she
Speaker 1: can just keep doing whatever she does forever until she dies,
Speaker 1: or you're doing it for the love of the game.
Speaker 1: And if you're doing it for the love of the game,
Speaker 1: you know, you actually love the thing for itself, not
Speaker 1: as a political battlefield. Just to thought that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I do think that that's an important thing
Speaker 3: to touch on. And it's once again the thing that
Speaker 3: I really fight against is I do not think that
Speaker 3: history itself should be used as a political bat especially
Speaker 3: this kind of history, you know, ancient history, shouldn't be
Speaker 3: used as a political battleground the way that a lot
Speaker 3: of people on the left and some people on the
Speaker 3: right to. I'm just kind of sick of that. I
Speaker 3: would prefer people get into history and enjoy history because
Speaker 3: they enjoy history and you can notice the patterns throughout
Speaker 3: time and you can, you know, draw your conclusions, but
Speaker 3: you should not you should not into history as like
Speaker 3: a secondary thing too. I'm trying to make a political point,
Speaker 3: which is how I see someone like you know, that's
Speaker 3: that's someone like Mary Beard or on the other side,
Speaker 3: that god awful Roman helmet guy.
Speaker 2: Well, if I could offer a little kind of pushback
Speaker 2: to that, my dear Titus, I'm not entirely sure I
Speaker 2: would agree with that, because I think we just talked
Speaker 2: about the Indian in a recent app and like propaganda
Speaker 2: using history I think is not necessarily a bad thing.
Speaker 2: Like if you were to ask me in going back,
Speaker 2: is the India a good thing, even though it clearly
Speaker 2: like bastardizes some of the history and be like, yeah,
Speaker 2: obviously it would be good for Romans at the time.
Speaker 2: Good propaganda is not necessarily a bad thing. But people
Speaker 2: with Mary Beard are the issue is they're just putting
Speaker 2: out bad Well, it's two things. One, they're putting out
Speaker 2: bad propaganda. I mean we've seen this with the Nolan movie.
Speaker 2: Even though it's not academic, you know, it is ultimately propagantic.
Speaker 2: He's not doing it for artistic's sake. He's doing he's
Speaker 2: trying to prove political point, but he's doing it in
Speaker 2: a very gross and not great way. And I mean,
Speaker 2: there is clearly very good political propaganda today and are around,
Speaker 2: but yeah, the classics just fail it. And the other
Speaker 2: thing is is much like how on the right you
Speaker 2: don't have a lot of patronage of kind of artistic works.
Speaker 2: You don't have that on the left either. So it
Speaker 2: is what you're saying, Jay is eventually it just runs
Speaker 2: up to the point where the gatekeeping that exists into
Speaker 2: this community is the gatekeeping which has always existed, which
Speaker 2: is you need to actually be interested in it. Someone
Speaker 2: doesn't just give you a whole chunk of money and say, here,
Speaker 2: produce this. That pipeline is dead. And you know, spreading
Speaker 2: shitty political propaganda is not as big a draw. I mean, Tyson,
Speaker 2: I will do our recordings at like twelve o'clock at night,
Speaker 2: because we truly genuinely are fascinated and love all sorts
Speaker 2: of this shit. And a long term I hope maybe
Speaker 2: this is me retident or leftover libertarianism being hopeful, but
Speaker 2: I do think in the long term that ends up
Speaker 2: winning out and gets shittily produced political propaganda, even if
Speaker 2: it is whether it's history or just genuinely good propaganda.
Speaker 3: Good things, good things last and bad things don't. And
Speaker 3: I mean, like it's just you know, yeah, the ship
Speaker 3: rises to the top, but then it just dissipates, you know,
Speaker 3: So you always have to have hope in that and
Speaker 3: that nature. And yeah, and I think that when people
Speaker 3: listen to the show, Jay, how often do you listen
Speaker 3: to the show. We're going to put you on the
Speaker 3: spot for a sec.
Speaker 1: U when's the last time you came on?
Speaker 3: Uh, well we came on last week, don't you remember?
Speaker 1: Yeah, then it was last week.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I like to hear no, I'm joking,
Speaker 3: but uh yeah, like I think that. Number one, we
Speaker 3: do the podcast because we like to do it. You know,
Speaker 3: it's it's it's it's an excuse for both of us
Speaker 3: to research history and enjoy reading and studying and and
Speaker 3: debating as well, like the fact that I can you know,
Speaker 3: there'll be stuff that I'm reading and I'm like, God,
Speaker 3: I need to talk to done later because I need to,
Speaker 3: Like I can't just like parse of someone. I need
Speaker 3: I need to I need to chew. I need to
Speaker 3: chew on this with somebody. But I think that that
Speaker 3: when when people are very much engaged. It's like we
Speaker 3: talked about, like circling all back to the movies and
Speaker 3: stuff like that. It's the earnestness. You know, if you
Speaker 3: don't have the earnestness and anything you produce and people
Speaker 3: are just not going to like it as a as
Speaker 3: a standard right And even if you produce something that's
Speaker 3: maybe not great, our thing is good. I'm just saying,
Speaker 3: you know, even if it isn't great, but you're doing
Speaker 3: it with earnestness, people will recognize that and resonate with that.
Speaker 3: It's something very human in all of us. It's why
Speaker 3: you're seeing a bunch of you know, people, uh that
Speaker 3: aren't a fan of like AI music or whatever. And
Speaker 3: I don't I don't really want to get into that
Speaker 3: because it's a whole separate thing and most of the
Speaker 3: people that are like anti AI music are you know,
Speaker 3: idiot communists blah blah blah. But but but the silver lining
Speaker 3: in that is that there are people that are going, no,
Speaker 3: I like seeing real music, and That's what I'm going.
Speaker 3: I'm like, when I talk to people that are so
Speaker 3: worried about like aiart music, I'm like, do you not
Speaker 3: see the very large market of people that don't want
Speaker 3: anything AI? Like you always have a market. There are
Speaker 3: always people that will enjoy the triumph of the human will.
Speaker 1: Well, and I think that like in my mind, the
Speaker 1: and I'm not looking to necessarily get into a huge
Speaker 1: like I guess conversation about human nature, although who knows
Speaker 1: we manned up there. But to me, the the fun
Speaker 1: part about reading ancient literature is the kind of tension
Speaker 1: between oh, wow, these people are exactly like me and wow,
Speaker 1: this is really alien? What are they doing? You know?
Speaker 1: Like that's the interesting thing? Yeah, and that human core
Speaker 1: to it, right, because if we're talking about, like if
Speaker 1: we're talking about you know, the Aliad in particular, right,
Speaker 1: the alien in the Odyssey. Both, it's like you read
Speaker 1: parts of this and you're like, okay, sure, you know
Speaker 1: there's some of this is fantastical, some of this is
Speaker 1: sort of mythic, but there's other parts that are so
Speaker 1: deeply human that even you know, I remember when Bagbee
Speaker 1: was taking you through it the first time, when I
Speaker 1: was like sixteen, Like, on one hand, I'm sixteen, I'm
Speaker 1: kind of a moron, so like some of it's going
Speaker 1: over my head, like this incredible connection be like, oh no,
Speaker 1: they're They're just like me, you know. And that I
Speaker 1: think is addition to kind of the kind of timeless
Speaker 1: wisdom aspect, the historical irrelevancy of it, like that shines through.
Speaker 1: And so at a certain point, right, like the materials
Speaker 1: good enough that even if you don't have necessarily to
Speaker 1: your point, like the highest production value or whatever, like
Speaker 1: a good faith effort, you're working solid material, right, you
Speaker 1: don't necessarily need to add a lot, and so you know,
Speaker 1: to see it kind of you know, brought into something
Speaker 1: that feels very kind of current and you know, kind
Speaker 1: of stupid and changeable, you know, the sort of things
Speaker 1: that people won't remember or care about in four or
Speaker 1: five years. Is really frustrating because it's like, man, this
Speaker 1: is like older than my like older than my civilization
Speaker 1: practically depending on how I just think you want to
Speaker 1: get about it, and like it's that it feels sort
Speaker 1: of not to say, like something sacred, but something that
Speaker 1: is way more serious than you know, like modern slot
Speaker 1: politics is being dragged into it.
Speaker 3: Yes, I want one hundred percent agree. Are you cool
Speaker 3: if I take this on a slight left turn because
Speaker 3: I have an interesting thing because Dune and I just
Speaker 3: did an episode on the a neeod Because you mentioned
Speaker 3: Aliated Odyssey and the i neiod is. Are you familiar
Speaker 3: with the Eneid?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've I think I tuniqually translated it, but not
Speaker 1: very well.
Speaker 3: Okay. One of the things that really stuck with me
Speaker 3: when because Dune did a lot of the research and
Speaker 3: I kind of went in pretty blind, which I like
Speaker 3: doing with these kind of some of the episodes. One
Speaker 3: thing that really stuck with me is how reading it
Speaker 3: and knowing that it is this very Roman propaganda story
Speaker 3: in a Nea is meant to be kind of this
Speaker 3: I I this this paragon of Roman ideals. I was
Speaker 3: kind of struck at how uncomfortable I felt as the
Speaker 3: as the thing went on, because it's we talk about
Speaker 3: it at the end of the episode, but it's I
Speaker 3: don't know if Anias is like a good guy, and
Speaker 3: it's interesting that that's the the way that Rome wants
Speaker 3: to view themselves. And the question I have for you
Speaker 3: and I also do and I don't want to just
Speaker 3: hog all the spotlight with this one, so you're free
Speaker 3: to jump in on this one. But Jay, I'm kind
Speaker 3: of interested. Are there certain classic like pieces of the
Speaker 3: classics that you read that you're you find like that
Speaker 3: more alien thing of like wow, Like I don't you know,
Speaker 3: this is kind of hard for me to root for.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean honestly, like one hundred percent, like
Speaker 1: mostly in the like like have you ever read any
Speaker 1: of the like a Syrian stuff? Like, uh, like you
Speaker 1: read the like the I can't remember what they're it's
Speaker 1: been years since I've gone through it, but like the
Speaker 1: description of like like what they would write on like
Speaker 1: gates and walls and stuff about like flaying thousands of people,
Speaker 1: And you're like, I can kind of meme myself into
Speaker 1: thinking this is cool, you know, but also at the
Speaker 1: same time, like, you guys are horrible. Why would I no.
Speaker 1: I it's like, I don't know, it feels like it's
Speaker 1: almost past human and I know it's not, but that
Speaker 1: feels very different. And then you read like even some
Speaker 1: of the weirder stuff like tell us I was mentioning earlier,
Speaker 1: we were like, this is just like this is just
Speaker 1: how a mutant tweet, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 1: nothing has changed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think with that one as well. I mean
Speaker 3: it's interesting just looking into kind of especially the propaganda mythology,
Speaker 3: because when you look at like things of history and
Speaker 3: what people did, it's like, well, humans are very flawed,
Speaker 3: but when you look at how civilization wants to view themselves,
Speaker 3: and it's that deeply flawed. I mean, we talked about
Speaker 3: this is kind of like an ending thing on our episode,
Speaker 3: but it was like, what's the American need and Dune
Speaker 3: what you said, moby dick.
Speaker 2: Moby Dick is very clearly moby dick.
Speaker 3: And it was kind of at the end of the episode,
Speaker 3: but we didn't have time to talk about it. But
Speaker 3: I want to bring it up here because I think
Speaker 3: it'd be an interesting kind of discussion on you know
Speaker 3: why movie.
Speaker 2: Dick because it's the pursuit of an ultimately unattainable goal,
Speaker 2: because of the foundation it's based upon is flawed itself,
Speaker 2: and while there's some good intention in the beginning, ultimate well,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think it speaks to America's underlying
Speaker 2: sort of Protestantism. Sorry, I know there's a lot of
Speaker 2: Catholics sells to the show, but I think it Protestant
Speaker 2: force is the one that ends up driving America for
Speaker 2: good Andy, and it's a very it's a very Protestant
Speaker 2: in that sense where it's a really, really far off,
Speaker 2: unattainable goal and you give up all possible pleasure and
Speaker 2: just enture this ultimate suffering for what to some may
Speaker 2: seem like a stupid, pointless goal. But what to the
Speaker 2: Americans or the people the Pea Quad is the ship. Yeah,
Speaker 2: people on the Peak Quad, like the crew, what it
Speaker 2: means to them to actually go and do this, even
Speaker 2: if it means falling this batch of craziestdea. Damn it,
Speaker 2: We're going to do this to the end of the Earth.
Speaker 2: And uh, yeah, I don't know. I think that that's
Speaker 2: probably why a pursuit of an unattainable goal, which as
Speaker 2: it currently not to get too current politics, but as
Speaker 2: it currently stands, I think that's a lot of points
Speaker 2: in American history. I think that is a challenge that
Speaker 2: we face more so than other nations would have a
Speaker 2: long history they can reach back into.
Speaker 1: So have you considered that it is the American version
Speaker 1: of the Odyssey, is in fact Harold and Kumar go
Speaker 1: to White Castle. No, I apologize.
Speaker 2: But.
Speaker 3: Freddy got fingered.
Speaker 1: I love that movie. No one will record a review
Speaker 1: of it with me, but I love that movie.
Speaker 3: I feel like you could ask Bird. I feel like
Speaker 3: Bird would do that.
Speaker 1: Bird might. He also might shoot me, and I don't
Speaker 1: even know if i'd have an argument against him at
Speaker 1: that point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think that, like because it's interesting to
Speaker 3: look at. The thing that really strikes me with the
Speaker 3: I neid is how flawed, at least to me, like
Speaker 3: the view of Rome. It doesn't feel idealistic. And I
Speaker 3: think that's kind of an interesting looking at what we
Speaker 3: dick because it's like, yeah, it's very accurate to the
Speaker 3: the American ideal of the struggle in striving for something
Speaker 3: that probably you can't get, but you have to learn
Speaker 3: like you become so engrossed in the struggle of it
Speaker 3: that that almost becomes the destination, right, the American dream, right,
Speaker 3: if you take it out of like the political sense
Speaker 3: of like, you know, America being a failed attempt at
Speaker 3: you know, some sort of republic. I think that it's
Speaker 3: also interesting looking into the cultural thing of the American
Speaker 3: of you know, if you just work hard enough, you
Speaker 3: can make it. You can do anything, right, And for
Speaker 3: a lot of people, they become so wrapped up in
Speaker 3: that that they forget what they're actually going for, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it causes them to undermine what it means
Speaker 2: to be a human itself, whether it's selling your soul
Speaker 2: online but through naked pictures and sleeping with other men,
Speaker 2: or whether it's just doing stupid like all sorts of
Speaker 2: things nowadays that think you can tie this pursuit of
Speaker 2: I can do it, I can work hard and making
Speaker 2: myself damn any other means possible, and that that doesn't
Speaker 2: end up well. And I think it's expandable past that.
Speaker 2: But there's definitely one layer of analysis of Moby Dick.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the monomoniacal obsession, right, and it's it's an
Speaker 3: even outside of like the selling your soul aspect. Even
Speaker 3: if someone does do it by the books, you know,
Speaker 3: you lose yourself, right. You know, someone will be focused on,
Speaker 3: you know, making a million dollars and then they make
Speaker 3: a million, and you know they don't stop and look
Speaker 3: at like their family around them or the things that
Speaker 3: they have accomplished the next The only thing that matters
Speaker 3: now is to get to ten twenty three, you know.
Speaker 2: I mean Ishmael may not have died, but he ends
Speaker 2: up alone. And that's kind of what happens when you
Speaker 2: pursue this goal.
Speaker 3: Hey, it's lonely at the top.
Speaker 2: Well sure, I'm sorry, but.
Speaker 3: It's lonely at the destination.
Speaker 2: But I mean to tie it back, I guess to
Speaker 2: the indied and the ancient world. I look at that
Speaker 2: and I find almost every character except Qui quig for
Speaker 2: obvious reasons, very relatable and different aspects of me as
Speaker 2: an American that you can see in it. I think
Speaker 2: in the Need you see that very much as well,
Speaker 2: where Romans would have looked at that and seen various
Speaker 2: characters in their own lives, and Virgil does a good
Speaker 2: job portraying as a multi dimensional character. I think much
Speaker 2: more so than some other of the much much earlier
Speaker 2: Greek playwrights, but honestly won't do that. We're gonna look
Speaker 2: at that, and you know, perhaps there's gonna be the
Speaker 2: transvestites in California saying wow, I see myself in Achilles.
Speaker 2: But for the rest of us Westerners more broadly, we
Speaker 2: get to look at and say, wow, that is completely foreign.
Speaker 2: That represents nothing I believe in. That is just there's
Speaker 2: something deep kind of what you're saying earlier, Jay, is
Speaker 2: there something deeper underneath in those stories that it's not
Speaker 2: quite articulatable, but it speaks to us from being in
Speaker 2: the West. And Nolan's just gonna fucking take that and
Speaker 2: crush it all in front of us. So it's gonna
Speaker 2: be a it's going to be a murder on the screen.
Speaker 2: To watch it is very It is very upsetting.
Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be upsetting if you don't watch it,
Speaker 3: because I'm not going to watch it.
Speaker 2: I watched the Netflix Cleopatra documentary, so I cannot believe.
Speaker 3: I cannot believe you watched good.
Speaker 2: It was astounding. I absolutely loved it. Black Cleopatri, well,
Speaker 2: Black Cleopatra has it going on. Let me tell you.
Speaker 2: She is one of the most retarded things I've ever wanted.
Speaker 2: It is glorious. I highly recommend it is.
Speaker 3: My favorite clip is the one where it's like, well,
Speaker 3: my grandmammy said that Cleopatra is always black. It was
Speaker 3: like whatever the scholars say. You know, I know that
Speaker 3: my grandmammy was right. You know, I can't remember the
Speaker 3: exact bit, but it's like some black lady going. It
Speaker 3: was passed down by my family.
Speaker 2: They actually got sued Netflix by the government of Egypt
Speaker 2: for putting that out court because it was so atrocious.
Speaker 3: Well was the other because I think the same time
Speaker 3: we discussed that, we discussed the other.
Speaker 2: Rowda Caesar documentary. They had a Caesar documentary. In the
Speaker 2: first ten minutes they say that Caesar was with crass
Speaker 2: Is putting down the Spartacus rebellion. Yes, it's like, huh,
Speaker 2: that's a pretty wild claim to make at that point.
Speaker 1: Come on, do you know what the subheadache of Netflix
Speaker 1: Cleopatra is? No, I've forgotten afriaking queens Cleopatra.
Speaker 3: I know about it. I know about plenty of African queens,
Speaker 3: but I know Clean Patrick one of them queens.
Speaker 1: Let me know, we just need to start uh remaking
Speaker 1: every North African figure as if they're a person of
Speaker 1: much color.
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Know, stealing fruit. Who knows?
Speaker 3: I want to do? Uh like various African legends and
Speaker 3: myths but played by all white casts. And you know, just.
Speaker 2: Is just like this fat chud No no, no, he
Speaker 2: makes a bunch of money. You could do an American version.
Speaker 2: He makes much money in Vegas and then drives across
Speaker 2: the country picking up local collar workers that'll just end
Speaker 2: up being Mexicans that he hauls around.
Speaker 3: Actually, that would be a really interesting like he's like
Speaker 3: a he he would have to be well, actually, you
Speaker 3: know what, he's a Jewish casino owner in Vegas that
Speaker 3: decides to spread his wealth with You could make him
Speaker 3: a non Jewish casino owner. But I'm thinking about, you know.
Speaker 1: To double down. Uh, he's a he's a Cherokee casino owner.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he runs. Okay, Jay, have you have you driven
Speaker 3: through like North Texas, North Texas going up to Oklahoma
Speaker 3: at all?
Speaker 1: I have? Yeah? I did, uh Austin, Texas to uh
Speaker 1: redacted Virginia in one sitting a few years back.
Speaker 3: Why are you down here in Austin? But the do
Speaker 3: you have you seen the ads and the billboards for
Speaker 3: that Chalktaw casino, the Chalktaw Nation Casino in Durant.
Speaker 1: Probably it's it's huge.
Speaker 3: This it is like, because I drive up to rural
Speaker 3: like North Arkansas near Fayaetteville.
Speaker 1: Come hang out, what how is it that big?
Speaker 3: I don't know. Instead, and the thing that makes it
Speaker 3: really funny is that, like the rest of that of
Speaker 3: Chalkdaw Nation is desolate. Do you drive surd you see
Speaker 3: the like the first thing you see is the largest
Speaker 3: casino you've ever seen, and then it's just miles of
Speaker 3: these like desolate abandoned like near abandoned towns. And then
Speaker 3: you get to McAllister, which is a desolate, abandoned town
Speaker 3: with lots of riva back entire merchandise.
Speaker 1: This is I mean, it really is just in the
Speaker 1: middle of nowhere.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing that's it's really funny because
Speaker 3: you'll see, like on I thirty five south southbound, You'll
Speaker 3: see ads for the Chalkdaw Casino, and I'm like, who
Speaker 3: in the right mind is going I'm pulling a UI.
Speaker 3: I have to gamble, I have to drive up four hours.
Speaker 1: Genuinely, this is so depressing it is. Do you know
Speaker 1: when their their peak busyness is? Oh it's tax taxi
Speaker 1: trans season, you know, I mean during the week, it
Speaker 1: is Sunday evenings.
Speaker 2: Oh man.
Speaker 3: Shout out to all of our listeners currently at chat
Speaker 3: Chalk Talk Casino.
Speaker 1: You're just one good way, one good day away from
Speaker 1: being a modern Monsa Musa.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Casino, if you want to sponsor us, contact do ast.
Speaker 1: So that's the funny thing. I have auto ads on
Speaker 1: these if you don't pay for it, and apparently I
Speaker 1: don't listen to them. Literally, like seventy percent of the
Speaker 1: ads are for scammy online casinos. And I just want
Speaker 1: to say, gambling is cool. You can make it all
Speaker 1: back and use code. Jay Burton at Chumblecasino dot com.
Speaker 3: Oh what was the what was that shirt? It was
Speaker 3: that it was like some people call it gambling, I
Speaker 3: call it.
Speaker 1: Hope, which I think is I think that's a dosty
Speaker 1: Evsky quote. I'm not a direly share.
Speaker 3: Yeah I'm not. I'm not addicted to gambling. I'm addicted
Speaker 3: to hope. So true. So you know, everyone that's at
Speaker 3: the slots right now, just remember your next spin. You're
Speaker 3: gonna make it big.
Speaker 1: Well, look, you're talking to someone who, for the first
Speaker 1: time in his life in the past twenty four hours,
Speaker 1: it's one a significant amount of money gambling. And let
Speaker 1: me tell you.
Speaker 3: You're on a higher eye.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it'll be like this forever. It'll be.
Speaker 3: Yeah, go put your house on black.
Speaker 1: God, dude, honestly I might.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: Deshaun Strickland came in and really cinched in that four
Speaker 1: like parlay for me.
Speaker 2: I will say, looking at this casino, it's setting me
Speaker 2: off because how is this zoned? There's nothing around so
Speaker 2: I think municipal wall. By the way, what would this
Speaker 2: be zoned? Is this one property that is zoned as
Speaker 2: like casino and then the rest of the surrounding is
Speaker 2: what like how well, he doesn't get this set up.
Speaker 3: It's on it's on reservation land, so there's probably some
Speaker 3: sort of extra weird laws.
Speaker 2: Do the Indians have zoning walls?
Speaker 3: I don't know. Let's look at the grock. Why don't
Speaker 3: you why don't you grop that real quick? Well, I
Speaker 3: mean it's it is. It is interesting going. I mean
Speaker 3: like there's certain things or like things aren't taxed. That's
Speaker 3: why like people in New York will go to the
Speaker 3: reds to buy cigarettes and stuff like that because it's cheaper.
Speaker 3: So I've heard. I actually never have bought cigarettes, and
Speaker 3: well I've bought cigarettes in New York, but I'm not
Speaker 3: from the reservation. But yeah, it's an interesting thing. Now.
Speaker 3: I also have another question for you, Jay, okay, because
Speaker 3: I like, I like interviewing the interviewer. Uh and while
Speaker 3: while we get some some stuff on municipal law, I
Speaker 3: want to know who are your top three favorite historical
Speaker 3: figures to read about. Not in terms of I'm inspired
Speaker 3: by them, but wow, this is so much fun to read.
Speaker 1: These guys are a riot oh okay, hmm so hmm.
Speaker 1: Andrew Jackson, Oh yeah all time, just like top g
Speaker 1: coolest man in the world. Uh. I'm trying to think
Speaker 1: who else this is slightly amarriageing. I actually don't read
Speaker 1: a ton of history. Uh oh see, I'm realizing I'm
Speaker 1: just selecting a certain archetype.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 1: Guy might have to goho long.
Speaker 3: Uh well, he is fun. He is fun to read,
Speaker 3: although he's not very good is a you.
Speaker 1: Know, well, yeah, that's just my point. Like I wouldn't
Speaker 1: say i'd like let him watch my kids, but you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like He's fun to read about.
Speaker 1: And then shoot, who else? I mean, honestly trying to
Speaker 1: think of the last, and honestly, you know, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: go with another. I'm realizing I'm just naming uh deep
Speaker 1: South scotch Irish guys is uh Stonewall Jackson, I think
Speaker 1: guess or Francis Drake.
Speaker 3: Stoneall Jackson, Stoel Jackson's great because he Foreshore was like
Speaker 3: actually probably autistic.
Speaker 1: I actually I'm gonna throw in, uh, sir, Francis Drake
Speaker 1: is a fourth and you can just average between all
Speaker 1: of those, and that reveals an uncomfortable amount about my personality.
Speaker 3: Uh now I'm inster Dune. What's yours? I don't think
Speaker 3: we've had this as one now now, like will be
Speaker 3: your top three?
Speaker 2: Uh Sulah Asherbana, Paul the second, and uh free it
Speaker 2: might be Justinian at this point after that. Yeahs So
Speaker 2: he's so complex historical figure. I've ever Buddy Kalmere and
Speaker 2: Drada's up there though.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've got to go. I've got to go Justinian
Speaker 3: as well. Uh oh, there was one other some of
Speaker 3: the polymaths.
Speaker 2: That was Yeah, that was a very Southern list there, Jay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, here's the thing. I don't actually know that much
Speaker 1: about history, and.
Speaker 3: Well that's why you should be listening to our damn podcast.
Speaker 2: Damn straight you hit it, do a stalty, go check
Speaker 2: it out like thomis.
Speaker 3: Why you know what, Jay, you gotta you gotta subscribe
Speaker 3: to our Patreon at the fifty dollars a tier, get
Speaker 3: to go to the one where you get to play game.
Speaker 2: No no, no, no no. I've been getting good education
Speaker 2: from the Rome episodes on here.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, that that. This is how I get my
Speaker 1: education on history. I'm following the Joe Rogan path of
Speaker 1: collapsing my life into a content singular I.
Speaker 2: Bring this full circle. You know, it is very feudle
Speaker 2: like where you know? Right? Is that old four chan
Speaker 2: green text is? It's just you have local artisans and
Speaker 2: philosopher's comments speak at the court.
Speaker 3: Me Yeah, tell me tell me science man. Why do
Speaker 3: the sky go dark at night? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Well, here's here's the real problem. If we drill down
Speaker 1: to it. I am a I'm a literature faggot. So
Speaker 1: that's what I actually read. I'm like on a deep
Speaker 1: run of like, you know, weird Russian novels from the
Speaker 1: last twenty years. It's all been great. But the problem
Speaker 1: is it's like that's narratively helpful, but like I talk
Speaker 1: to you guys, I'm like, I don't know.
Speaker 3: We come back on and we do it. Is this
Speaker 3: historically accurate or not? Review of every of every Hairy
Speaker 3: Turtledove all history novel.
Speaker 1: I'd be up for it. Here's honestly, what would be
Speaker 1: both embarrassing and very funny is uh, you guys present
Speaker 1: me with historical scenarios, most of which are true, some
Speaker 1: of which are not, and I have to guess based
Speaker 1: off of my Like.
Speaker 3: We've already we already have a whole Google doc based
Speaker 3: on this. We we're ready, well half ready, So you
Speaker 3: let us know and we'll come on.
Speaker 1: We'll hit you with this sounds great. This is This is,
Speaker 1: by the way, guys, from a professional podcaster. This is
Speaker 1: what audience is like. Audience is like when you meander,
Speaker 1: you don't really hit any topic, particularly when you're trying to.
Speaker 1: And then you talk about podcasting as and that's mostly
Speaker 1: what it is. And that's sort of like inside baseball
Speaker 1: into the you know, inside in the mind of a
Speaker 1: you know, just a useless wastrel is really what gets
Speaker 1: people going well.
Speaker 3: I do notice that the peons like it when Doune
Speaker 3: and I argue on podcasts, but the ones that we
Speaker 3: argue more on seem to get pretty good views.
Speaker 1: It's just become the Jerry Springer of the classics world,
Speaker 1: throwing stuff.
Speaker 3: It's never that supper.
Speaker 2: But then like he didn't graduate fucking college, so like
Speaker 2: he's he's below where I am. So he dares to
Speaker 2: speak to me.
Speaker 3: And how much student learn that? Do you have?
Speaker 2: Uh? How well?
Speaker 3: I have zero?
Speaker 2: Zero? What's your tax bracket?
Speaker 3: Oh I'm dirt poor, but I'm just below the belt.
Speaker 3: You know what. But here's the thing. Musicians like been
Speaker 3: twenty years. Everybody's job will be taken by AI and
Speaker 3: the won't be making any money, but musicians.
Speaker 2: And the collapse of Rome municipal government was one of
Speaker 2: the only things that persisted onwards. Even when the goss
Speaker 2: and the Franks and the vandals all come marching in
Speaker 2: and doing stuff, the municipal law survives. I will have
Speaker 2: a job, you.
Speaker 3: Know, you know who you would be like in history,
Speaker 3: you would be the Dunstan of any area that you'd be,
Speaker 3: you know, Dunstan from Anglo Saxon history.
Speaker 2: Dude, no, no, no, no, like.
Speaker 1: We're talking about Dunstan.
Speaker 3: No, duncan Okay, so dust.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna see Dunkst. Dunston checks in.
Speaker 2: No, I've not seen Dustin the monkey whatever it's.
Speaker 1: Dunstan checks in nice film where Orangutan goes to a hotel.
Speaker 1: It's a great so.
Speaker 3: Uh So Dunstan was an English bishop. He was the
Speaker 3: Archbishop of Canterbury from he was he lived from nine
Speaker 3: to nine to nine eighty a d and like was
Speaker 3: just the like no funnel, loud lawyer of everyone around him.
Speaker 3: And then there was the other guy. There was Oh
Speaker 3: my god, who is the guy that Henry the second
Speaker 3: was always up in arms with? Will someone get rid
Speaker 3: of this miserable priest or whatever it is?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 1: Thomas Moore Cramer, it's.
Speaker 2: It's the other one. I think it's uh man, I'm
Speaker 2: bad at history. I should not do a podcast.
Speaker 3: Well, oh, Thomas Beckett, Thomas Beckett, okay, you would be
Speaker 3: the Thomas Beckett.
Speaker 2: No. I just like there's unisfu. Law is wonderful and
Speaker 2: its current state is abysmal. But when things do end
Speaker 2: up collapsing and we're all excuse me, and we're all
Speaker 2: eating each other. Well, you know who's going to write
Speaker 2: the zoning laws for where you set up the chicken
Speaker 2: wing cafe. That's just human fume.
Speaker 1: For where you set up the skull pyramid, Damns.
Speaker 2: You can't set up a skull pyramid within a three
Speaker 2: foot setback. That just ruins the like the right of
Speaker 2: line and the sewer ease. Mins. It's a whole pain in.
Speaker 3: The Mixed use zoning is just like where you can
Speaker 3: kill somebody.
Speaker 2: I love mixed use zoning. Mixed use zoning is absolutely wonderful,
Speaker 2: and Americans have butchered it because of the you know,
Speaker 2: I've been picked International Property Maintenance Code. The people that
Speaker 2: put out that are just awful people. They're the reason
Speaker 2: that you can't just buy piece of property and build
Speaker 2: a house because all these local municipalities, who aren't very intelligent,
Speaker 2: will basically say, oh, look, here's this manual that gets
Speaker 2: put it every year that tells us how we should
Speaker 2: do property codes. We're just gonna adopt that. Mind you,
Speaker 2: the local code enforcers don't have any idea. It's also
Speaker 2: not listed on the actual codebook. You have to go
Speaker 2: buy the i PMC if you want to know how
Speaker 2: you're supposed to build your damn house, and then there's
Speaker 2: a billion and one regulations that are just completely bloody
Speaker 2: pointless because someone living in Appalachia is going to have
Speaker 2: different building requirements someone living in floody fucking Arizona. The
Speaker 2: i PMC is one of the main things destroying this
Speaker 2: country them and you can new him.
Speaker 3: You can him.
Speaker 1: I we got to know. I was. I was like
Speaker 1: about two seconds from just ending the show there, which
Speaker 1: honestly I might still do. Guys, where do people find you?
Speaker 3: You can find us? Well, there's there's three. Number one.
Speaker 3: You can find the podcast at pretty much every place
Speaker 3: where you consume your podcasts. If you don't see it
Speaker 3: on your podcatcher, go and tweet at us Duo Stalty.
Speaker 3: It's at duo Stalty on Twitter, and yeah, just let it, like,
Speaker 3: let me know, let us know if you can't see
Speaker 3: the podcast there, and if you feel incredibly generous, we
Speaker 3: would love to have you on our Patreon, which is
Speaker 3: patreon dot com slash Duo Stalty Pod. We've got three
Speaker 3: tiers with different benefits and.
Speaker 2: Episodes, notes and some sif game on there, if you
Speaker 2: want to give us fifty bucks for some reason, yeah, yeah, platform.
Speaker 3: If you want to do fifty dollars a month, yeah, we'll, we'll,
Speaker 3: we'll do a savy game. But yeah, I uh, thank
Speaker 3: you Jay for having us on, and you know, thank
Speaker 3: you on a deeper level for for for helping us
Speaker 3: get a little more off the ground from the previous episode.
Speaker 1: You know, we do.
Speaker 3: Like I it's sincerely, from the bottom of my heart,
Speaker 3: thank you because it's kind of cool that. But what
Speaker 3: what's Gary Etagarryga