Speaker 1: Some people spend fifty years trying to forget the thing
they can't explain.
Speaker 2: The next thing I knew.
Speaker 3: I was surrounded by blue and indigo flashing lights, and
through this big rectangular space in the wall, I saw
a flying saucer.
Speaker 1: He was sixteen, and something standing behind him had already
decided he wouldn't remember.
Speaker 3: I could feel somebody behind me, and this somebody said
something that I heard in my head. It said, you're
not going to remember anything about this, and it.
Speaker 1: Had been happening since before he could remember.
Speaker 3: I just had a weird life, and things happened to
me that didn't seem to happen to other people so much.
Speaker 1: Part one of a two part conversation with Steve Aspen.
And before we're done, we're going to ask who else knew.
Let's find out everyone. Welcome to the Good Trouble Show.
I'm Matt Ford. For years on this show, I made
a decision we'd stick to the nuts and bolts of
the UAP story, the national security angle, the legislation, the
fight in Washington, and I stayed away from one part
of it, the abduction part. So about a year or
so ago, I realized that this was a mistake, because
this has happened to millions of people and they deserve
to be taken seriously. My guest tonight is not a
tourist in this subject. He says it has happened to
him his entire life, and to his mother and her
mother before and her mother before that. He's spent seven
years working alongside the late David Jacobs. He was a
close friend of the man who put the alien abduction
phenomenon the map, Bud Hopkins, and he has spent fifteen
years taking this evidence into real laboratories. He's the author
of Out of Time, I'm the Intergenerational Abduction Program Explored
and a second book with doctor Andreas Luck, the brand
new Investigating the Impossible Biology offers new answers and insights.
He's joining us from Lincolnshire, England, and this is part
one of a two part conversation tonight his story and
how the world came to take him seriously. Please welcome
Steve Aspen. Steve, welcome to a Good Trouble show. I
understand what you're in Lincolnshire in the UK? Is that right?
Speaker 2: Yes, Hi, Mats.
Speaker 3: We're in the Lincolnshire Walls, which is a picturesque pass
of a very rural county. Lincolnshire is full of agriculture
and wild spaces, and we're in one of the wild spaces.
Speaker 1: And I take it it's probably cold and rainy there right.
Speaker 3: It's boiling hots at the moments, blue skies and thirty
two degrees celsius, which is about ninety five. Know, it's
about one hundred degrees fahrenheits.
Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, you're actually yeah, yeah, I know you're you're
you're actually way hotter than it is here today is
about seventy degrees fahrenheit. Actually, I have last time I
was in the UK was around nineteen ninety four, and
so it's been a long time. And of course I've
made all of these new friends in the UK with
this whole UAP business, and so when I finally make
it out there, I'll definitely have to have to pay
you a visit. But seriously, thank yeah, thank you, thanks
for joining us on the show. Super glad to have
you and kind of how this came about. I was
on the Good Trouble Show. We've pretty much stuck to
on the UAP topic, the national security and legislative lens.
More of the nuts and bolts, and I sort of
made a decision early on that I was going to
stay away from the reduction part of this whole topic.
And it was probably about a year ago. I said,
you know what, that's a real mistake because there are obviously,
you know, millions of people that this has happened to.
I believe it to be true and it's something that
is worth addressing. So there's a whistleblower friend of mine
who I reached out to and said, you know what,
I want to do a serious, extensive episode on the
abduction phenomena. Who should I speak with? And he immediately
said you're the guy, and then also spoke to Robert
Hastings and Robert agreed as well. So, yeah, man, super
glad to have you on here. Steve walk us through
the morning of twenty second of July nineteen seventy two.
You were sixteen. You were working, as I understand it,
at a nursery, a Rose nursery in Cheshire. What's the
first thing you remember about that?
Speaker 3: Well, on the twentieth through July, which is actually the
bird anniversary of the Apollo eleven moon landing. By pure coincidence,
it was a Thursday in nineteen seventy two, and I
had a very peculiar compulsion to get up early on
Saturday morning because I was to go somewhere. Now, this
is the most bizarre and peculiar thing to say to people,
so I kept it to myself for many years. But
I had just had a compulsion, and I knew that
on Saturday I would nowhere to go. And sure enough,
very early in the morning, about five point thirty quarter six,
I got up, put my clothes on and left a
family home. I was living with my parents when I
was sixteen and planning to go to university when I
was eighteen, two years after in a different part of
the country, but at this time I was living with
my nuclear family in Cheshire.
Speaker 2: I just walked out the door and I knew where
to go.
Speaker 3: I knew it had to head out into about a
mile away from where we were living. There was agriculture
and farmland around where we lived, and there was one
little place where some new houses were being built, maybe
at ten or fifteen of them, brand new dwellings that
none of them were habited at the time. They were
all under construction, so they had all walls were brick,
walls were built, and the roof timbers were in, but
they didn't have any tiles on the roofs and in
between the most of the floors were in, but some
of the buildings just had the wooden rafters with no
flooring in yet. So it was a building site with
cment mixers around them, piles of bricks, and it was deserted, obviously.
At six o'clock in the morning on a Saturday, and
I thought, okay, I'm here, now what the next thing
I knew? I was surrounded by blue and indigo flashing
lights all over all around me, and the kind of
woo woo woo kind of sound, and the beeping sound
on top of that, and I could feel or sense
somebody behind me, and this somebody said something that I
heard in my head rather in my ears. It said,
you're not going to remember anything about this. You completely
forget about it, so don't even try to remember.
Speaker 2: And through.
Speaker 3: One of the walls right in front of my vision
was a big rectangular space with where a window was
to be fitted, but at this point in the building
process there was no window fitted. There was just an
empty space, not even a window frame. And through this
big rectangular space in the war, I saw a flying
saucer and I'll tell you what. If you've seen the
S four film featuring Bobb Lazar in the past couple
of months, it looked exactly like the Sport Model. And
I've remembered this object for fifty years, and it was
only when I saw Bob's representation of the Sport Model
from his memory, because nobody has filmed or photographed it
in the as so far as I know that, I
recognized it is exactly that vessel with the same proportions,
the same black rectangles around the top, the same shape,
the same shape and size, and it was drifting in
my vision from my left to my right through this
this hole in the.
Speaker 2: Wall, and.
Speaker 3: It looked like it wasn't part of our reality. It's
very difficult to describe this. I say in the book.
It looked like it was out of time. It's like lick.
It was there, but it wasn't. And it was like
I was looking into a different dimension or was it
was distorting time somehow, distorting the space around it. And
this is a bizarre thing to say to anybody in
nineteen seventy two in rural England, when this will just
sound completely crazy, and suddenly it just everything stopped. The
lights were gone, the sound was gone, the UFO was gone.
The person I sensed behind me wasn't there, and I
was just in a building site. And I looked at
my watch and it was quarter past eight, so I'd
lost two hours and fifteen minutes or maybe slightly more
than that, and it was completely disappeared from my memory.
And I didn't understand anything about what might be going
on because in nineteen seventy two in rural England, nobody
had heard of alien abduction. Nothing was in the public
domain about it. It's possible that a few people in
the population, you know, one or two percent of the
population who you know, followed the UFO subjects and read
Flying Source of Review as an example, which I later
found out was a popular publication through those years. Had
heard of the Hillcase in New Hampshire in nineteen sixty
one because John Fuller had published his book in nineteen
sixty six. I'm not sure how many copies were sold
in the UK or how many people knew about it,
but it was known by very very few people, and
there's no media coverage of it. There was no news
articles about it. So it was just unknown and what
had happened. And as I was walking home, I felt
this area of my cheek was wet and I wiped
it away and it was a hot, warm, sunny morning.
I don't really understand why it was that, but then
it was wet again. And when I got home, I
looked in the barroom mirror and I had a complete,
a total circle, a disc of a burn shaped disc
right under the eye socket. And it scabbed over after
about four or five hours, and it didn't completely fade
from view for three months, and then it was. It
finally flaked off and disappeared in a way probably the
most burns of a similar kind you know, would do.
But I didn't have any sensation of burning. I just
had this wet patch on the cheek and it was
obvious that something had happened.
Speaker 1: So that was the wetness. I'm sorry, was the wetness
blood or just.
Speaker 2: What it was?
Speaker 3: Just it was just the skin seemed to be a
layer of skin seemed to be missing, okay, And it
was just it was just a disc, coin shaped disc
of flesh below the eye. It wasn't a deep wound
or anything. It was just like the top layer was
scraped off and the rare underneath was red rather than
you know, mordnly flesh colored. So something had happened that
had done that, and I had I remembered the flying
Saucer in the sky because you know, I knew from
kids comic books and you know, a few Hollywood movies
that have been released at the time, like the Day
they are stood Still. You know, disc shaped spaceships were
supposed to be in the future, in our future, you know,
you know, after all this Apollo stuff had finished, and
rockets and so forth, we were going to have a
different kind of travel. But they were they were all
science fiction, and they weren't They weren't past of anybody
else every day world. So I couldn't make any sense
of this at all. I don't want to digress, but
I'd had other experiences in my childhood which demonstrated something
to me was going on, and I was the focus
of attention for something because I was.
Speaker 2: The room was filled with the blue.
Speaker 3: Light in the night time sometimes and I felt I
was paralyzed, and I could feel and smell these creatures
around me, and these whispering noises.
Speaker 2: In my head.
Speaker 3: Somehow and I was I could feel being moved and
sensations sometimes, like when you're standing in an elevator in
a tall building and he shoots up to the thirty
floor and then it slows down and stops the action
of it's slowing down.
Speaker 2: You feel light.
Speaker 3: You feel that the whole body feels light, you know,
as the as you know your body weight continues and
the elevator slows right down. It's that kind of sensation,
which is the only thing I had it up to
that time, which I would compare compare it to. And
I felt like I was lying down on my back
sometimes and I had no clothes on, and people were
pushing needles into me and doing things in my nose
and ears. And then I was back in bed and
it was the morning. And I always remembered these nighttime incidents.
They happened to once every four or five weeks right
through my childhood, certainly from age five, maybe even before that.
But I could never make and even in nineteen seventy two,
after they did this incident in the building site, I
didn't put those two things together that I then didn't
realize that that might be in any way connected.
Speaker 2: I just had a weird life.
Speaker 3: And things happened to me that didn't seem to happen
to other people so much, or it's all, but I
didn't put the things together. And obviously nobody was talking
about alien abduction as a thing because nobody had heard
of it in nineteen seventy two in rural England.
Speaker 2: It just wasn't known about.
Speaker 3: Now, of course, it's on one thousand TV channels and
it's talked about in you know, on the internet endlessly
in various corners the internet. But in those days you
couldn't find any reference to it anywhere, and it didn't
you know that the whole concept didn't mean anything.
Speaker 1: Of course, I want to jump back to this incident
in nineteen seventy two. What do you make of the
fact that this being told you, hey, don't worry, you're
not gonna remember this, but in the end you did
remember it, like I sometimes do you think that they
know that you're going to end up remembering it.
Speaker 3: What I did remember of the incident was the very
end of it, and don't even remember the onsets of it.
But if it was two hours and fifteen minutes, I
just remember the sixty seconds or so at the end
of it, and somehow the way they block their memories,
there's a way they do that which I only discovered
the past ten or fifteen years when I started.
Speaker 1: So you're walking back home, you feel wetness on your cheek,
and you get home and there's a circular wound on
your face. What do your mom and dad say about this?
Speaker 3: I didn't know what to say because what had happened
to me wasn't supposed to be real, and I just
didn't know how to begin to explain it. So I
just said, I don't know what happened. They just kind
of have to me.
Speaker 2: Maybe I woke up with it.
Speaker 3: Maybe I banged it on the beds when sleeping or something,
or scolded it on the tap. I just don't remember
how it happened, and I just kind of dismissed it,
you know, carried on with the day.
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Just go to www dot vgod troubleshow dot com. All right,
back to the interview with Steve. Now, I understand your mother,
she passed away in two thousand. You mentioned earlier earlier
when you were describing this, that you realized that this
had been happening to you for some time. So your
mom passes away in two thousand. In her last years,
she is a channeling poetry. I think you mentioned in
the book around one hundred poems, some in dialects. She
didn't know. Well, when did When did you realize that
what was happening to you had also happened to her?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 3: When I was about eleven years old in one of
these nights, during one of these nighttime incidents, I asked
one of the abductors, because you'd learned to speak to
them in your mind and you frame the question in
your mind, they don't necessarily, it's not that they read
your thoughts, but they had dialogue with you without any
words and without any sound. That's that's what this telepathy
is like. And I asked this one. It was he
was standing about two meters away from me with back
to me, doing doing something across the other side of
the room. And I asked him, why have I been
singled out for this special treatment?
Speaker 2: Why am I the lucky one?
Speaker 3: Why don't my friends or you know, of my schoolmates
that I knock around with them, you know, play football,
with why don't they seem to undergo this kind of
you know, these kind of thing the events that I undergo.
And he said to me telepathically, he said, it's because
of your mother and your grandmother and your great grandmother
and your next and he just carried on with what
he was doing.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 3: I retained the memory of that particular part of the
abduction for forty or fifty years. In fact, I can
still hear it now virtually. That was That was the
one percent of incidents, episodes from these abductions that I
remember with clarity, and it just seems to live in
my mind. I forgot about it for years and then
I suddenly remembered it, and it's always been there fairly
near the surface because somehow it went in deep and
it was retained. So he told me that this thing
that they were engaged in was had an intergenerational component.
And it was almost as though he said to me,
you know, you're part of the plan, you're one of
the series, and it's your turn.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: Wow, I'm curious. You said earlier you remembered the smell,
what they smelled like. And I've actually that's been something
I've always been curious about. I've never heard anyone speak
about it, except in the Varginia case. Yeah, what do
they smell like?
Speaker 3: They smell musty and old, like moldy cardboard when you're
up close to them and something. Sometimes you know from memory,
they don't really smell them much at all, But other
times they always smell musty. They smell like really old
things that are that are not really healthy. I mean,
I'm sure they are healthy in their own ways, but
that's what they smell like. They smell musty. And you know,
I always know that the smell comes with the abduction,
the onset of the abduction experience with a parallel paralysis.
Speaker 2: The smell comes with.
Speaker 1: It, Okay, and just sure. So that's so as soon
as you smell this thing, you realize I'm sure that
this is about to occur.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it kind of you know. Remember I'm in deep
sleep and suddenly you know, you're not dreaming. You suddenly awake,
and you don't you take a few seconds to a
climatize to being awake, and then I really, this thing's
happening again, okay, right, And there's nothing else, there's nothing
I can do about saying it now.
Speaker 1: For the viewers that haven't read your book, What is
the program? And one paragraph describe the program? And also
why do you call this whole thing the program instead
of the abduction phenomenon?
Speaker 3: Very good questions, Matt. It's I think it's not. I'm
not the originator of the idea of the program. Is
it's something David Jacobs talks about speculatively for many years,
and he in particular emphasized the planned and routine aspects
of this. But it's it's something that is being prosecuted
on a minority of the human population worldwide. I think
it's Terry Lovelace and I you know Terry lovelaceil you
know who he is, and he he and I differ
in the number of people we think are involved in it.
I think it's about two percent of the population. He
thinks it's about ten percent. But it's a minority of
the population, and it's definitely goes down an intergenerational lae.
And I think the evidence that this part of the
program either was an initiated or massively accelerated in the
last decade of the nineteenth century is very strong. But
we may not go into that today because you know,
it's a bit complicated. But when this entity said to
me when I was eleven, it's because of your mother,
your grandmother, and your great grandmother and your next he
didn't extend it back centuries. He just said it was
it's because of your mother, your grandmother, and your great mother,
full stop or period, as you would say. So he
was telling me that they sometimes tell you things because
they don't think you remember, or they don't think it's important,
or they just they just live with it, you know.
He told me that then, effectively, that this was an
to generational genetic program that one the parents and one
or more of the kids, and one or more of
their kids and one or more of their or more
of their kids are in this program. And there's a
reason why they do this, which we can speculate about embassy,
but what we know is that this is so if
you're an abductee, then you are. You are repeatedly abducted
throughout your lifetime. You probably don't remember ninety nine percent
of the incidents because of the way the very covert
secrets of nature with which it's prosecuted. And you can
guarantee almost one hundred percent that one of your parents
was that your genetic parents was in the program, one
of their parents was in the program, and one of
your children, at least one of your children, if you
have any children, will be in the program. This is
pretty widely acknowledged now by all abduction researchers or anybody
who has interviewed enough to abductees and got enough data.
Almost everybody acknowledges that this is a core part of
the whole phenomenon is the intergenerational nature of the program
on a minority of a human population. Those things we know.
The why is the why of that is a completely
different question.
Speaker 1: Your incident in nineteen seventy two, and you mentioned that
you had stuff that you were aware of that had
taken place prior to that. I'm curious, as an adult
had are these things still happening to you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, they do happen, but in my case with less frequency,
or it seems to be less frequency than as a child.
But they do continue right throughout life. And there's an
incident that happened in nineteen seventy six, a few years
after this, when I was a young young adult. I
was twenty and I was at the university University of Southampton,
which is a city on the South Coast and I
was trying to finish an essay which I had to
get into to the tutorial on Monday on a Saturday evening,
and one of the girls in the house because it
was a shared student house, and came back from the
pub with two male friends in tow and these guys
were actually there were lecturers at the Polytechnic, which is
a different educational institution in Southampton, and they said that
they had all had the idea well while they were
in the pub when there was closing time, that they'd
come and get me, who they understood was still finishing
his essay at home, and we go together to a
place called Hurst Castle, which if you look at a map,
it's a fifteenth century fortress built on a promontory of
rock and shindle which stretches out into the Solent, which
is a waterway which separates the Isle of White from
the mainland, and this promontory there's an old fifteenth century castle.
So we went out there because one of the guys
had a car, you know, and a dopensop car which
is a very hot summer like today here it's really
hot summer, so we were all wearing shorts and t
shirts at midnights because and it's really hot. It was
still really warm. We went out to this place and
we walked out on the shingle to to this place,
Hearst Castle. It's quite heavy walking. If you're walking a
mile on pebbles, you know, it's not always easy going.
And we all had sandals on, so it's more more
difficult initial it should have been. We saw an oval
shaped light which seemed to us to get brighter and
closer and then to recede and get dinner. And it
slowly got larger and larger, and it moved around a
bit like it zigzagged and moved around, and we really
didn't know what it was, and we were a speculating
it was a helicopter. It's not an aircraft, or it's
not a not a passenger plane, it's it's is it
a helicopter, Maybe it's maybe it's something military, maybe it's
we we really didn't didn't understand what it was because
it wasn't a star, because stars didn't move like that,
you know, in this zigzag way, and then stars are
not that size. It was about half the size of
the moon, I suppose. And suddenly I found myself lying
on my back on a low wall, looking upwards at
a big disc above my head, and I had this
overpowering sensation that they acchoose that I kind of knew
there were people beings associated with this light. They were
very pleased with me about something very bizarre thing to
discover and even more bizarre to even mention or talk
about to people. So I didn't really talk about that
aspect of it, but I did talk about the sighting.
And then the thing zoomed off and it zig zagged
across the sky, and it went in another direction, It
went in another direction, and then it went it sped
up to a very fast speed, and it turned. It
turned into a kind of straight line rather than disk,
and it blurred and disappeared. Eventually it I think it
was flying impression that it was flying almost upwards, and
you know, at an angle, and the three companions of
mine were sitting about one hundred meters away on the
pebbles at at the water's edge, looking out to sea
and not speaking, and they're just staring into into the sea,
and for some reason I was separated somehow from them.
And so this was obviously to do with this thing
that happens to me a loss, and I was a
young I was a young adult, and you know, could
make no sense of that either. But the overpowering sensation
was that this sighting, I didn't call it an abduction
at the time, but this this sighting was I had
some kind of mental or telepathic communication with the beings
on board this thing, because there obviously were. They were
talking to me in my mind, but they were really
very happy, very pleased with something I'd done with them
or for them, and I had no idea what they meant.
I just had a very very powerful feeling.
Speaker 1: So maybe they were pleased that you brought three friends
for them to take up in the craft. I don't know, but.
Speaker 2: I think they were.
Speaker 3: They spent the whole time sitting on the beach staring
out to see I think they were years ago.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's go back again to nineteen seventy, summer
nineteen seventy in County Kerry. I think it's what you
talk about in the book. So you were fourteen at
the time, and a local farm board showed you a
mutilated cow which had kind of the sort of typical
stuff you hear with cattle mutilations. Cord, cavity, no blood,
no tracks, anything like that. Nothing. It looks like a
coyote took this thing down. And you know, And that
was at least forty years before Linda molten Howe published
her Irish cases. Tell Us about, tell us about all that,
what you saw, and you know what you thought about
it at the time, and what you think about it now?
And more importantly, what, because I've wondered this, what you
think that aspect of the phenomenon actually is.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 3: At age fourteen, we went to Southwest Island on a
holiday and in nineteen seventy and the breakfast table when
we just finished breakfast, were staying in a farmhouse near
a little town and in counter Kerry near this about
two miles from the sea maybe, and the son of
the farmer who was eleven years old, lily younger than me,
but very savvy, very I mean he lad the cows
and helped out the far farm workers, quite a smart kid.
He came up to me and took me by the
elbow and took me to one side and said, come
with me. I want to show you something. And so
we walked I walked out with him and we walked
through part of the farm and up up the hill,
up the local hill, and down and up another hill
and came into a flat area in the little valley
and there on the ground was a cow obviously dead
with it's it's you know when cattle die or sleep,
they go flat and they're their limbs lie on the ground.
You know, Well, draw my gravity. This cow, it's it's
limbs were sorry, I'm trying. Its limbs were sticking up
in the air. I can't get it. Can't get this
in the screenshots.
Speaker 1: But I see, I see it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's limbs was sticking up rigid. All four
limbs were rigid, and they were sticking up in the air.
Speaker 2: And it was on its side like that.
Speaker 3: And we approached it from the back and the whole
of the rectal and genital area was carved out in
a perfectly circular tunnel going back into the the animals insides,
and it was like quarterized, so there was no blood there,
but it was.
Speaker 2: It was obviously it.
Speaker 3: Was like somebody had don't use a massive surgical instrument
to cut something else and had then prevented any blood
blood flow. And one of its ears was cuss off
and missing one of his eyes was gouged out, and
there was a hole where its eye was, just a
big red hole in its skull where the eye was,
and part of its jaw bone was missing, exposing its jaw,
its white jaw, and it was obviously comte.
Speaker 2: I mean, what had happened to it?
Speaker 3: We don't know. The lad told me that the vets
had already been out to see this cow in that morning,
and the vet had taken a look at it and
told the farmer his dad, the lad's dad. He told
the farmer that the cow had died of anthrax, which
you know, I didn't. I've never heard of anthrax when
I was fourteen. But from what I know of anthrak now,
there's no possibility that the vet could have thought that,
And there's no possibility that a diagnosis anthrax fitted the circumstances.
And if they had a single case of anthrax on
any farm in County Kerrier or anywhere in else in island,
the whole region would have been evacuated.
Speaker 2: Sure is that dangerous?
Speaker 3: So the explanation didn't fit the facts, But that's what
the farmer was told, probably because the vet was completely
mystified and had no idea what had happened to that cow,
and he felt he had to tell the farmer something.
And he probably thought he had to tell the farmer
something that the farmer would believe, because the farmer had
no knowledge of or anthrax as a disease. So he
floated that as an idea, this cow died of anthrax
in order to give the farmer an explanation that he
could be satisfied with.
Speaker 1: What is your sort of personal theory as to how
this is connected to the abduction phenomenon and why do
you think this is happening to these animals?
Speaker 2: Do you know, Matt? To be honest, I have no idea.
Speaker 3: I met Linda Howe, and I've met other people researching
the animal mutilations. I've seen her documentary in the nineteen
from the nineteen nineties, Strange Harvest, and I've read her book.
And the reasons behind why this is being done are
very difficult to fathom. What is known is that glowing,
unidentified flying objects are seen very often in the vicinity
of the areas where these cattle go missing, and they
turn up dead the next day with these kinds of
this pattern of mutilations, and sometimes they turn up in
trees as if they've been dropped from above and they've
landed in the tree and they've stayed there. So, you know,
it's the idea that is a it's a predator on
the ground putting a cow up in a tree.
Speaker 2: It is beggars belief.
Speaker 3: And there's no similarity between the actions of a predator
like a mountain lion or something, what the mountain lion
would do to a cow, which they occasionally kill cows,
very rarely, but occasionally they do. And these these characteristics
of these these mutilations, they are completely different things. I
just don't know what they're doing. I mean, there are
certain things like a cow's gestation period is nine months,
the same as a human gestation period, and they have
twins with exactly the same incidents as human do. But
you know, three hundred and fifty out of four hundred
births are single, single calves. So there's there are certain
and there are certain similarities I understand in the in
the blood type and in the tissue types of cattle
and humans, which you know, humans don't share with most
other mammals. So there are genetics similarities, but they're not
you know, they're not obviously that close, and it's very
difficult to understand what they're playing out. I mean that
there is something being done to these animals. I'm not
sure whether they're still continuing, are they, because I've not
heard any reports of them recently, but I know there
were there's a big epidemic of these these these mutilations
in the nineteen nineties, nineteen eighties and nineties nineteen eighties originally.
And I don't know whether it fits in with the
abduction subjects, to be honest, or whether this is a
completely different set of you know, aliens or whatever they are.
They might be different or they might be the same lots.
I just really can't make any sense of it. It
doesn't really fit with the abjunction of narrative.
Speaker 1: It's all, yeah, it's it's. I have no idea, obviously,
I've y know it totally is. Yeah, it's I'm a
big fan of the show Skinwalker Ranch with Brandon Fugel
and Travis Taylor, and of course they've had episodes where
they've had these, you know, these cow mutilations, and so
I've always been fascinated by it, and I figure there
is some kind of connection, But but I really don't know.
I want to switch gears and talk about Bud Hopkins.
Bud Hopkins is a name that's going to come a lot,
come up a lot in the show, I think, uh.
And for viewers who don't know who he, who he was?
Who was he? And why does he matter in this field?
Speaker 3: Bud Hopkins was born in nineteen thirty one, and we
went to Oberlin College and that states in one of
the Midwestern states. I don't remember, is it a higher
I think it's Ohio. And he studied art and he
had he had polio as a child and he started
drawing at dage four and while he was in did
recovering from the disease, and his teacher told him, but
you could be an artist one day, and he was.
He was very very good at drawing, very very good
at painting, and had that natural talent for it. And
it's he in his early twenties, he moved to after
he finished his degree, a bachelor's degree in artser to Oberlin,
he moved to New York City and settled there and
in the art the art community of New York City,
and he had his first exhibition in his mid twenties
in Manhattan and then started selling his art works and
making a scratching a living from his art. But he's
a very very good artist. He had was able to
buy a summer house in Cape cod at a knockdown
price because in the nineteen sixties property was not that expensive,
I mean you could afford it on a normal income.
And he used to go out there for the summer.
And he had a UFO sizing on Cape Cod one
summer I think in nineteen sixty four, in the company
of his then wife Joan Rich who is to whom
he was married for thirteen years, and an English guy
called Ted Rothon, who was a friend of them.
Speaker 2: Both.
Speaker 3: They had the three of them at a UFO sighting
daylight UFO sighting in the late afternoon of a solid
lensicular object, bright shiny objects which was moving in and
out of the clouds and obviously under intelligent control and
obviously what wasn't a conventional aircraft. And he was very
intrigued by this, and he started, you know, collecting newspaper
cuttings about find sources of sightings and so forth, and
taking and interesting the subject because he realized that something
real was going on. He'd never given it any thought
before that sighting, and he painted a whole series of
paintings called some Black that I think he's fourteen of
them in total, And there's an image of one of
these in this studio that I have put in out
of time, you know, because we found the one surviving
sun black art work from this series in this studio
after he died in twenty eleven, because the others have
all been sold to collectors or galleries. And so he
had an interest in the UFO subjects, and he had
a in when was it nineteen seventy something, seventy eight thereabouts,
he went across the street to buy a bottle of
whiskey from a guy you know who ran the shop there,
owned and ran the shop there. He used to pop
in and chat for this guy, and he was I
can't remember his name, Obaski. He was Obaski. That that's
not an Irish name. It was Obaski, just one word.
He was an East European name, actually, so Obaski told
him that he said he was He was a a
grumpy old guy who had seen everything in life and
resented most of it. Was how Budd described him and
his character, you know, And he'd had this story experience.
He lived in New Jersey and drove home at the
end of the nice you know, we closed the shop
down at eleven o'clock in the evening and and drove
back to New Jersey across you know, through the one
of the tunnel. I think it was on the New
Jersey side of the Manhattan and he had this experience
of of seeing a UFO land in a big park
at Hudson Valley Park, and some small creatures get out
of the of the UFO and takes all the samples
from the ground, which sounds an amazing story, but he
was absolutely astounded and shocked by this and didn't know
who to who to talk to about it and who
to tell us. He's told Bud Hopkins, you know, because
he just saw Bud most days really in the street
or you know, in the in the uh, you know,
coming in the shop to buy this and that. And
so Bud got together with a guy called Ted Blucher,
who was a UFO investor, so he'd got to know
a little bit, you know, because he was interested in
the general subject. And they together investigated the case by
interviewing people in the Hudson Park area on that night
of the sighting, and it turned out that the window,
a huge glass window of an apartment block, of an
apartment block adjacent to the park, had cracked from end
to end in a very thick glass window pane cracked
end to end as an ear splitting sound happened as
the object left the ground and flew off. And he
had the security guard from the building witnessed this and
testified to exactly what he'd seen and how the window
had cracked and so forth. So what Bud did was
he wrote an article on this incident for the Village Voice,
which is a newspaper from the you know, the Greenwich
Village essentially that part of Manhattan. The Village Voice and
Village Voice bought it off him and printed it published
it with his named Bud Hopkins, you know, he was
the author of this article, is an artist from you know,
Greenwich Village, and within about six months Cosmopolitan magazine, which
is a very big circulation women's magazine in the nineteen seventies.
It's gone now, but it was, you know, in the
in the era of magazines. It was a very very
big selling magazine and with a readership of millions and
Cosmopolitan magazine bought this article and published it in Cosmopolitan.
Bud always joke that it was it was between two articles.
On was what to wear on the first dates the
other article. The other article was how to have an orgasm?
This is this is This is Cosmo's bread and Butter
in the nineteen seventies. Anyway, this, this article about this
UFO sighting in Hudson Park, written by this guy, Bud Hopkins,
this artist from Greenwich Village, appeared in Cosmic magazine and
so amazingly, over the next six months or so following
this the publication Cosmos publication of this article, thousands of
people wrote to Bud Hopkins about their UFO sightings, thinking
that he was some kind of experts, you know, and
there were there was the he was an authority they
could tell this to and you know, so he'd take
notice of it somehow, because the you know, the police
weren't interested, the government wasn't interested. They didn't know where
to report their you know, a citing a UFO sighting.
And so Hopkins are this pile you this is before
the days of email. He has piles of handwritten letters
and occasionally type letters in the mailbox every day from
all these people and who'd read this article in Cosmo
that he'd written. So he actually started wading through all
these letters because he was interested in what people's reported
of their experiences, and he noticed the patterns emerging. He
noticed that a significant minority of these people said that
what happened was they experienced a period of missing time somehow.
You know, they were outside at seven o'clock in the
evening and they saw something, and when they returned to
the house a minute later, it was half past eight
or nine o'clock, and they couldn't make any sense of it.
They just reported to Hopkins, you know, and when he
started phoning some of these people up, you know, he
got much much more full and honest and open accounts
because you know, they were willing to talk to somebody
who phoned them about this, and many of them reported
the same things they reported they have They had found
scars are or of certain patterns, you know, on their bodies,
and they couldn't understand how they got there, and they
were very unusual, you know, like straight line scars or
little chunks of flesh removed from the soft tissue areas
the body, like behind the legs, or behind the shoulders,
and they they they or their partners have discovered this
this little scoop mark in the in the flesh, that
there was this little line across the middle, whether you know,
they're like something some surgical instruments had been used to
snip out a piece of flesh or something and joined it.
And so many of people who'd have you sightings reported
all these things. They all reported that the night they
had a sighting, the or the day they had a sighting,
they just had a deep feeling that something really strange
had happened that worried them and they just couldn't get
to the bottom of it. So what he did during
the year following the publication of Cosmo article, he contacted
about twenty or thirty of these people. And some of
these people were so convincing, and their stories were so
consistent and matched each other so closely, and they were
all from all over the place, all over. He tended
to phone only people in the New York State area
or even the New York City area because there were
so many of them in total, because they were local
and he had the opportunity to meet them if they
were willing to meet up with him, and there were
a couple of psychiatrists, Aphrodite Klaimar was one of them,
who were customers of Bud's art. They appreciated his arns
and has bought a number of works from him for
their own collections, and they volunteered to give offer regressive
hypnosis to these people if they consent to it, to
find out if they're remembered anything. And that's how the
whole thing about alien abduction started, the investigation into alien
abductions started. There'd been certain cases before that. The Aper
Organization published book about alien abductions to a couple of
years earlier, and a writer called Raymond Fowler, who's still
with us, who is ninety one now, had started researching
these cases as well. They said that move on state director.
I think he was a move on state director in
Massachusetts in those days, so that there were some instances
of people researching this phenomenon prior to both. But he
did this in a very systematic and organized way, and
it was very thorough and he became He wrote all
this case work up and came to a series of
common themes, and he wrote it all out as a
manuscript and submitted it to a publisher, and he was
published I think by Hampton Rhodes in nineteen eighty or
eighty two, and it's called Missing Time, which was surprisingly
a New York Times bestseller, you know, which for a
first Affer was quite something. And Missing Time was all
all these strings together and put it on the map
as a phenomenon, a thing that happened to people, which
was associated with unidentified flying objects, and it's part of
the discussion of the subject.
Speaker 2: And Hopkins really really, you know, made it legitimate.
Speaker 3: And he got invited to speak at conferences and he
had at think two hundred conferences appearances in his last
twenty or thirty years of his life. And he collected
a group of people around him, which he became known
as the Intruders Foundation, who worked as volunteers, collecting donations
and so forth, and running the office, you know, and
giving advice to people and linking the people up with
hypnotherapists were willing to work for free and so forth.
And you know that this whole circus got started. And yeah,
this is where the alien abduction narrative starts, and Hopkins
got David Jacobs was the professor of history at Temple
University in Philadelphia, who'd taken interest in the UFO subjects
as a young student, really and he'd always followed it
and he got Flying Source review because a lot like
Hopkins and a lot of people, he was just intrigued
by the idea that aliens might be visiting us and
you know, that we might make contacts one day.
Speaker 2: And he was intrigued by it.
Speaker 3: And he'd always been leery of abductions, talk of abductions,
because he'd thought it was too far fetched and unlikely
to be real.
Speaker 2: And it was probably.
Speaker 3: What is you say, probably psychological m hm, Probably something psychological.
But he was in New York City on some errand
or of the some business, and he was with Tracy Toomey,
who was the son of Tracy Tomey is a filmmaker,
that he's the son of Melt tour May, the opera singer.
And he knew Tracy tour May really well. And Tracy said, oh,
we're in We're in Greenwich Village. Why don't we go
and see Bud Hopkins Because Bud had known Melt tour
May for many years, you know, the op just in
his social circle. And Jacobs was very reluctant to do
this because he knew Hopkins's reputation is a bit fringe
on the UFO circuits, and he had no trouble with
this talk of this abduction stuff. He just thought it
was all psychological and probably you know, people's imaginations and
so forth.
Speaker 2: He couldn't possibly be real, could it.
Speaker 3: And anyway, they found Bud Hopkins's house and they rang
the doorbell and Bud was home, because he's usual usually
home as an artist, you know, artists and nesters and
musicians and nomads, they say. So Bud was a nest,
you know. Obviously he has had his studio in the
West sixteenth Street, in the basement of the house. And
he found that David was very interested in the UFO
subjects generally and took Flying Source of Review and you know,
and went to conferences and read stuff about the UFO
sightings and so forth. So he started showing him his
abduction work. And when he discovered that David works at
Temple University in Philadelphia, he went to a pile of
these letters he'd been receiving, like you know, this power
was this big, and he he said, these are the
people who've written to me from Philadelphia. Would you like
to call some of them, yeah, and find out for
yourself if this is real.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 3: So that's how David Jacob's got involved in abduction research.
And he went back home with these letters and he
phoned Allan Heinech, you who knew really well at Northwestern University,
and he asked how he has said, Alan, you know,
I went to see Bod Hopkins and when it was
in the Manhattan, and you know, he's got some very
conpelling evidence about this abduction thing.
Speaker 2: He just seems to.
Speaker 3: Know exactly how had to manage it. And you know,
he's got psychologists and psychiatrists who are volunteering their time
and and hypnotizing these people and regressing them and recovering memories.
And he's written a book about this and this and
that and the other. And David said to Alan Heinich,
he said, you know, I was very impressed by Hopkins's research,
you know, and he's offered to introduce me to a
few of these people who've had sightings and claimed that
have been abducted and so forth. And he's given me
a stack of letters of people from a Philadelphia who've
written to him about their what they think of their experiences.
Alan Heinich said to Jacob's don't touch abductions. David, don't
go near it. It's crazy. Just don't don't go near it.
You know, don't you be contaminated by it. Don't touch it.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 3: David Jacobs did not take Alan Henik's advice good or ill,
and he ended up being one of the foremost researchers
of this issue that there's ever been. And I worked
with him for seven years between two thousand and nine
and twenty sixteen, and I helped to copy edit his
book Walking among Us and I appear in that book
under a pseudonym as well as one of the one
of his subjects. So he and I knew each other really,
really well. I still call him even though he's retired
from university life and retired from the field of production
research now, and he's in his mid eighties and he
lives in he lives in Everson, Illinois these days. But
that's how David Jacob's in and Hopkins actually managed to
We don't tell the whole story, but he managed to
get John Mack involved in taking the subjects seriously as well.
John being a psychiatrist who was very interested in mysticism.
Speaker 2: And you know.
Speaker 3: That there's there's a kind of breath holistic breath therapy.
He researched and so forth, and he was interested in,
you know, rather eccentric and and historical characters like T. Lawrence,
about whom he wrote a book called it A Prince
of Our Disorder, which was awarded the Pulitzer Prize. So
he was kind of interested in people's odd experiences, especially
when a lot of people seem to report the same
thing that was all equally quirky and they're the same characteristics.
And he was very intrigued by this. They didn't think
it was He thought it was probably psychiatric in nature,
but he wanted to look into it. And that's how
John was was poaxed into abduction research. You know, because
of Hopkins. He opened the door so many people, and
he opened the door. He started off so many researchers
into looking into this issue.
Speaker 1: And I understand you too were pretty close.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I in two thousand and eight. I am in
August two thousand and eight. I was going out of
shower and janis my wife who you've seen on screen
about an hour ago, because she helped me fix the
connection problem with the zoom he Janie saw pointed out
my shoulder and said, Steve, you've got what that thing
on your shoulder? It looks like one of those goop
marks I've seen in books about abductions, and you've got
one on your shoulder, and I'm going to photograph it.
So she did, and she sent the image to few
people that she you know, we met at a UFO
conference amazingly, but she sent the image to a few
people she knew in the US.
Speaker 2: One of whom was.
Speaker 3: One of whom was Steve Bassett, and another another one
was a few people. One of the people she sent
the image to was Piece Robbins, who had met her
a conference in the Atlantic City a year earlier. And
Pieter and I had swapped an email addresses and swap
phone numbers and we stayed in contact even though he
lived in in Ithaca at the time in the New
York and I lived in London, in Greater London. And
he sent the photograph of my scoop mark to Pietera.
Piece Robbins showed it to Bud Hopkins, and Breakthrough Films
happened to be making a film about our Bud Hopkins's
life and work at the time, Breakthrough Films were a
Manhattan filmmaker.
Speaker 2: They won an.
Speaker 3: A Sundance Award for their film about Joan Rivers called
a piece of work, John Rivers, a piece of work.
I don't know if you ever saw it, but yeah, that's
a Breakthrough Films production. And Breakthrough Films were making a
film about Bud Hopkins' life. So they were just around
the corner, you know that their office was just around
the corner from West sixteenth Street, and Breakthrough Films wanted
a couple of scoop marks that had never been investigated
or looked at by any dermatologist or pathologist and wish
never been you know, examined even fresh, rather than you know,
ones that were already in the public domain. And they
asked Bud if they could get this me and the
other abducts Sea who also.
Speaker 2: Was found who had a scoopmark scar. They and in.
Speaker 3: Two thousand and eight, in September or October, Bud Hopkins
phoned me up one evening in my heart of shown,
Peter Robins has given me give me er number, and
he he asked if I would be willing to go
some go over to New York City. I could stay
in his apartments if I wanted to to send me
the hotel bills. And the condition was that Breakthrough Films
would take me to a dermatology clinic in Upper Manhattan
and they would have it this this scoop mark buy
up seed by and analyzed by a dermatological lab, and
they report about it would be written and it would
appear in the film, which actually was never finished. But
so that's how I ended up in Bud Hopkins's apartment
in December two thousand and eight and then ended up
interviewed by Breakthrough Films, and Bud and I were together
for a week, and you know, went out from meals
with the film crew every day and did this and that,
and this is how, you know, we got to know
each other, and we got hid it off so well.
Speaker 2: You know, we had so many things in common.
Speaker 3: We had similar tastes in art, and he's obviously much
more knowledgeable than I was. We were interested in the
geopolitics and political history and so forth, and so we
had tons and tons to talk about. He was a
jazz enthusiastic within a completely encyclopedia knowledge of jazz, and
he met most of the jazz musicians you know in
the fifties and sixties that you know, famous ones like
Miles Davis and John Coltrane.
Speaker 2: He met them all and so we.
Speaker 3: Had a lot to discuss, and the relationship developed such
that I went over there about three times a year
for until twenty eleven when he died after a long illness.
He died of cancer, you probably know, liver cancer and
a couple of other related pathologies. So but in those
three years, we spent a lot of time together, a
lot of one on one time together, a lot and
Need showed me a lot of his research. He showed
me his stuff that he didn't I had never revealed
to anybody else, and discussed a lot of cases with
me that were really extraordinary. And you know, he introduced
me to the people involved in the witness case, you know,
the Brooklyn Bridge case, which he wrote a book about
called Witnessed, and so forth, and that's how the relationship developed.
I have to say that much of the time we
spent together wasn't wasn't spent talking about the abduction subject.
Obviously that was an important element of our conversation, but
that wasn't the only thing we discussed, and talked about.
So that's how we got to know each other.
Speaker 1: Now, in chapter three of your book, you describe but
Hopkins so called new age positives, and I'm quoting you here,
little cosmic Greta Thunberg's walk us through, Walk us through
Hopkins four type framework for how you are, how people
react to this whole UAP or abduction phenomenon or vote.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he said, with all the people it mess who
discuss the general UAP subjects, it was it wasn't the
UAP term wasn't currency back then, they will refer to
as UFOs. He said, he could broadly drop the mental
one of four types of reaction. The first type was
the intelligent skeptics. And these are people who approach the
subjects with a skeptical frame of mind. That's true meaning
of the word skeptic. They investigate, they examined the evidence,
they reject certain explanations that don't fit, and they come
out with a core of hard cases that they think
is something intriguing, unusual and real. And these people that
he referred to as the genuine skeptics, there's a category
which Category two was the New age positives.
Speaker 2: These are people who.
Speaker 3: Think that all contacts with potential extraterrestrial life forms is
an extremely positive thing that they're they're coming to Earth
in these flying sources and they're going to enlighten us
and upgraders and improve our understanding of the universe and
so forth, and it's all everything is positive.
Speaker 2: There's no hints of anything.
Speaker 3: Threatening or negative about the subjects, and that they tend
to be very new age in outlook anyway. And so
these people, he said that you know, the positives. The
third category he called the true believers. And in the
category of the true believers he put people like Philip
class Do you know who he was?
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah he was. For those that don't know who
he is, please please tell us who filled class Wise.
Speaker 3: He was an aviation correspondence, and he was single and
fanatically against the idea of the UAP issue having any
truth to it, and he would jump on any case
like the Travis Walton case in nineteen seventy five. Class
was stayed right down there the first day when Whalton
was missing for five days and turned up dehydrated. And
you know that there's the other six guys in the
truck during the Travis Walton case all passed light detect
They all saw the abduction, They all saw the UFO
in the clearing of having over the clearing, and they
all saw Travis get zapped by this beam in face
of the ground. And they all passed light detector tests
are testing to their their integrity. But Class was straight
down there to the debunk it and invented all sorts
of stuff about Travis which were, you know, a pack
of lies, really, but that anything that that you can
place in the public domain to demonstrate that this this
was a load of rubbish. You know that the UFO
subject was a load of rubbish. Is is a load
of kooks? Serious people didn't didn't need to consider it
at all, and it was all nonsense and it and
Bud said, the people like Class, the true believers, believe
that the UFO subject is not real in exactly the
same way that the Pope believes in the virgin birth.
M That's how we characterize them as the true believers.
They are completely driven by ideology, and there's nothing about
them which will be tempted to examine the evidence dispassionately. Okay,
And the fourth category he's called what was he the
incurious curious? Yes, there are a very large group of
people in the population who have no curiosity about the
subjects at all, don't feel strongly about it one way
or the other. And Okay, there's so there's aliens or
there isn't aliens. Yeah, you know, so UFOs are real
or they're not real. You know, cares you know, what
are the baseball scores interested in that?
Speaker 1: Exactly? Yeah? I know plenty of people like.
Speaker 3: These, but categorized them as the in curious. My father
was one of the incurious.
Speaker 1: I was going to ask about that. Yeah, yeah, tell
us about what your father saw.
Speaker 3: My father was one of the in curious. He was
an academic, affluent speaker and writer of the French language.
He was he ended up as professor of French at
Liverpool University, so he was he was very very devoces
to literature and the arts and so forth. And he's
a very intelligent guy. And he had a master's degree
in French and he used to collect French books and
who had a very large collection of an antiquarian French
books and eventually left academia and went to a small
market town and in the bookshop where he has spent
the happy, happiest twenty years of his life, you know,
at the end of his life selling books. But one
day in nineteen sixty eight, he got up very early
to drive to London. He was going on a book
buying trip. I think he was London because he's going
on a book buying trip. And he opened the curtains
in our small, semi desatch house downstairs and he saw
a huge white, glowing disk hovering over the neighborhood. And
instead of waking us up and saying, look at that
thing out out of the window, isn't it amazing, he
just brushed it off and got on with his day,
you know, and got on with getting ready for putting
a suitcase in the car and driving off. And he
didn't even mention this sighting to us until he returned
about three two or three days later with a carful
of books, you know, And to him it was just, yeah,
something you know, mildly unusual. But he didn't want to
spend time on it thinking about it. You know, it
wasn't wasn't part of his life, wasn't part of his world.
So he was one of the in curious and you know,
he had no curiosity about the subjects at all. And
ye know, I think he's not the only person in
the world like that. As you said, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, most of the people, Oh yeah, I mean most
of the most of the people I know that's that's
that are not obviously not in this field. It's yeah,
they care about putting food on the table and going
to see their kids football or what. Yeah. No, you
can't blame him at all. I I completely completely agree. Uh. Now,
you know, we've we've spoken about these two researchers and
and of course your book. Whitley Strieber, who is just
a lovely human being. I've I've had lunch with him,
and he's I think in many ways, his book Communion
completely changed the landscape. And you know, so this book
comes out in nineteen eighty seven, and I understand that
you saw it in a bookshop and felt and this
was your word, a chill. So twenty years later you
and Streeberg became friends as well. Tell us about your
relationship with Whitney Whitley, excuse me, he's going to kill me.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I was interviewed by Whitley after publishing Out of Time
in twenty twenty two, and he interviewed me a second
time the same year, sorry, the following year twenty three
for Dreamlands, which is you know, his show is.
Speaker 2: His Internet channel.
Speaker 3: And he interviewed me the second time because my book
was pulled from the markets by Amazon. They closed down
my accounts, and this is a very long story which
we probably could spend an hour on that, So I
won't just briefly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, briefly talk about because I think that that yeah,
I think that's and sorry to interrupt. The delay here
is pretty significant, but I think that this is a
really significant part of your story and what I viewed
to be efforts to shut this conversation down. So your
book is doing well, it's on Amazon, and how long
had it been on Amazon?
Speaker 3: It was published in September twenty two, and this was
pulled from the markets by Amazon on the thirty first
of March twenty three, and so it was on the
markets about well.
Speaker 2: The story I was told was that I my name.
Speaker 3: Was associated with a different Amazon account and this other
Amazon accounts had been guilty of content violations and had
been banned because my name was associated with that. They
were they were they were preventing my access to my accounts.
I would be paid no royalties for the last two
months of the contracts, and they said, in any case,
there is you signed the publication contract with Kindled Direct
Publishing because I'd published with Kindle Direct Publishing in September
twenty two because of my the recommendation of my.
Speaker 2: Editor who.
Speaker 3: Lives in London, Ontario, who had dealt with Kindle Direct
Publishing before, knew the process and the type setting arrangements
and so forth, and the and the copy editing and
editing processes. So I took his advice because I didn't
know any any anything else to do. You know, was
brand news for publishing world. So I don't blame this
editor at all for that. He was actually in good
faith in the news as shocked and stunned as I
was when the book was pulled from the market, and
you know, it's all sorts of fall. Letter was came
out of out of his email traffic about that. But
book was full pull for the market. And I was
discussing this with Whickley, and he wanted me back on
the show, and he said to me, not on the
with certain things he won't say on the show. But
between the two of us, the book Out of Time
had a fairly heavy weight of appendices of physical evidence,
hard forensic evidence scientifically validated. There's, as an example, there's
the analysis of my scoop mark scar from that man
Manhattan clinic in two thousand and eight. There's a catalogue
of bodily scarring from my own archive, which you know
includes scoop marked scars, burns around the legs, multiple incisions
in geometric patterns on bodies and so forth. And we'd
also recovered two hairs from an event in twenty fifteen
that we needed to want it to be analyzed by
people who could, you know, do a proper analysis and
microscopic microscopt scopy and analysis. And we found a company
called it's very long through a very long process called
micro Tress LLC in Illinois, and they analyianus these hairs
for us, and they turned out to be hairs from
a wig. And interestingly, at the same time that they
had all a very similar time, not not precisely coincidental insime,
but during within a few weeks, they'd had another hair
from a an adverteer in California who I didn't know
and then never heard of, and she she became known
to me as Betsy, but I'd never met her, and
I don't know who she is, but she'd submissed a long,
a long brown hair, and the two hairs we had found,
my wife had found one inside the house and a
second one identical just outside the house on the patio
between with locked glass doors between the two hairs, and
we don't they don't match hair as on our heads.
We've not had any visitors for about three weeks beforehand.
We'd had a thorough house team the day before, so
they couldn't just appeared overnight, but they did follow an
events that I recalled and when some being two beings
entered the living space through the glass doors, like through
the glass doors. They didn't open them, they came through them.
And in the morning I was very, very irritated and.
Speaker 2: Difficult to be.
Speaker 3: With, and you know, my wife sent me out for
a cycle ride.
Speaker 2: You know, I just have a racing bike.
Speaker 3: Used to do a lot of fast cycling to just
try and burn off some energy and you know, get
over it. But I drew an image of one of
these beings that I remembered from the night before, and
the hairs do seem to match what I remember were
on the head. It turns out that these two hairs
that we found in our on our property, and the
one hair from California, which was like you know how
many times zones are you away from as eight eight
thousand miles from us, from Los Angeles, London thousand miles,
so she was eight thousand miles away from me, and
she she had a different hair from a different experience
in a different occasion. And there were all there were
all of them from weeks now that the the hair
from California was from a costume wig and it dyed
costume wig which was polypropolene. It wasn't a human hair,
but the two hairs from our house were from a
human human hair wig, but it was at a stage
in the process of a wig manufacture and when it's
before it's dyed, where they each all the original color
out of the hair the wig. And this individual was
wearing this wig that came into our living space was
wearing this wig because I remember what she looked like.
She looked exactly like her hair was a bit tangled
in a bit kent and it was gray. It's exactly
what the hairs would like and it does match the
micro microchaces diagnosis of wig hair. So then there's there's
the other thing that was in the book was analysis
of an implant recovered from a patient in two thousand
and nine by doctor Roger Lear. It was a podiatric
surgeon from southern southern California, and it was analyzed. This
implant was analyzed by Neutron Star Nanotechnology in Southern California,
and the the chief executive, Steve Colburn rose A, reported
about it and posted it on the internet, but nobody
really saw it because you know, it was hidden away somewhere.
So I published that out of time as well. So
I had all this forensic evidence and a lot of illustrations,
graphic illustrations and my electron microscopy data and microscopy images
of this implant and microscopy images of the hair and
a really serious forensic analysis of the hair. So all
this is out of time, and it's a very solid
body of evidence which supports the physical reality of the
abduction subject without question. And I think that that's why
the book was pulled. And I don't think that Jeff
besils I had anything to do with it directly, but
I think, you know, he had people somebody working in
his organized station or coverdly having influence over people in
the organizations who managed to get the book taken off
the market. And you know, Whitley and I talked about
this and he said this is very likely. And he
has other ideas about about this, which I won't just
discuss in this interview. You can discuss it with him
if he'll discuss that with you, But I think he
wouldn't want me to reveal what he really thinks. But
we came to know each other really well when in
one of his visits to England, because he comes to
England quite a lot and he wants a cottage and
in Sussex so he can write and not be disturbed by.
Speaker 2: The phone and the internet.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Sure, so he comes up here quite often. So we
got to know each other when he was in England
on that time, and we've got to know each other
a very well since. And he stayed up up here,
was in it with us in our house and Lincature
on two separate occasions. And he accompanied me to a
conference at the Whole Universe in twenty twenty four where
I got him on the speaker's list and we joined
me and Peter Robins and a few English guys who
were also on the speaker's list.
Speaker 2: So he came over for.
Speaker 3: That and he stayed with us for three or four
days on that occasion, and then he left this and
I took him to the station and he got the
trained man to work with Graham Hancock, who lives in Bath.
If you know Graham Hancock is he's a friend of Witness.
Speaker 2: So he.
Speaker 3: Was on a tour around the UK at that time
to visit all these interesting people.
Speaker 1: And I understand and go ahead, yeah.
Speaker 3: Well I'd known about Woodley since nineteen eighty seven. Were
because Communion was so well promoted by his publisher that
he was in all bookshops in England, every high street bookshop.
I had a full window display with twenty or thirty
copies of Communion part on top of each other. And
he was on Whitley was shunted around all the big
talk shows. You know that this was the day of
network television was king of media, not like it is now.
There's no Internet in nineteen eighty seven, really to speak
of it. It appeared in the nineteen nineties, but there
was you know, everybody was his big talk show host.
We have, you know, equivalents of Colburn and Jimmy Kimmel
and so forth in the UK and in Ireland, and
not the same people obviously, but you know, the same
type of people who do the same kind of shows.
So he was Onley was on all those shows, on
all those shows, and he did a tour world media
splurge when Communion was released, so everybody read it. Everybody
bought it and read it, and everybody I knew viewed
it as an extraordinary thing. And I became persuaded in
nineteen eighty seven that in abduction existed for the first
time was a thing. And after reading Communion, and I
was I couldn't begin to explain to you how grateful
I was that it had nothing to do with me.
Speaker 1: And I understand too. So your book disappears off of Amazon,
and I understand that you that emails between you and
Whitley were also we had were disappearing for some weird reason, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a big subject.
Speaker 3: If you talked to Robert Hastings about his experiences with
this harassment, yeah, oh yeah, you know, so you know
about Robert. Once I started communicating with Robert, I bought
his book UFOs and Nukes in two thousand and eight,
and I started striking up a conversation with him online
and and we went. We went over to the States
for a medical conference in twenty ten, and one of
the things we did was was fly down to Albuquerque,
rent a car and drive out to Robert's place in
Towse and spend a week with him. And we've been
friends since then. But since we've become close, our emails
are always interfered with. They're always putting the junk mile,
or they disappear altogether, or sometimes they sometimes that you
see in the inbox one message on red and you
look scroll down your messages for the past a few
weeks and that there's no message on red, and then
you find it was it's in two years ago. It's
dumped somewhere on red in the in the folder from
two years ago. And I don't know how they do that,
but it's done. And there's other people when I communicate
try to communicate with this happens to. One is my
co author, Andreas Look of the second book that I
published this year and was published on April, the second
Investigating the Impossible, and Andreas is a PhD professor of
Malecula Biology, and genetics who's co written the book with me,
and whenever he and I started to communicate, the messages
were always interfered with. I was invited to Southampton University,
my old alma mater, alm a Matter, Who's that what
you call it in two thousand and twenty four to
take part in the debate against doctor Christopher French, who's
professor of anomalistic psychology at Goldsmith University in London, and
French and I faced off against each other in front
of a crowded lecture theater full of students and faculty members.
Were people standing at the back, you know, it's so full.
And I won the debates as as decided by a
vote from the audience, and that the abduction phenomenon is
a real thing and it's not explainable by an omalistic psychology,
which doctor French claimed it would be, you know, and
they didn't agree with him by majority. But the professor
of psychology who organized this event between French and myself
was doctor Aidan Gregg, who's a psychologist in the departments
of Southampton and he and I have you know, become
quite good friends actually, and he lives on the Isle
of White which is close to Southampton, and every time,
every time Aidan and I communicate, the messages interfered with
a lot of the messages got missing, he said. The
first time I ever wrote to him at the time
of the debate, he found my message to him in
his junk mail. Yeah, and he's from that.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. I remember when I first started talking to
Robert Hastings on the phone on my cell phone about
a day later after our first conversation. And I love Robert.
I was actually out visiting him very recently in you
know where he lives. But yeah, yeah, exactly. But the
day after he and I spoke for the first time.
For about a two week period, I had clicking on
my phone that would be like I would be talking
and then start hearing an echo of me all kinds
of stuff. And actually, speaking of interfering, you may have
seen me kind of like messing around with my wireless
belt pack and it just stopped. But literally at two
forty five pm Pacific. You know, I've got an ear
piece that I hear you in this thing called an IFB,
and your voice was coming in distorted, uh the whole time,
and it just, uh what twelve minutes into it. It
just poop stopped. And the last time that happened was
uh when, oh, it was probably about a probably about
a month ago. I'm I'm blanking on his name, the
director that did the phenomenon.
Speaker 3: Uh uh uh, yeah, there's I could see it, see
its face.
Speaker 1: I can't believe yeah anyway, but but yeah, I mean
there there really really is some strange stuff. And yeah, James,
so exact same thing happened to him and like turned
on like a switch the whole day when I was
rehearsing and whatnot. No no issues, but yeah, the same
exact thing. Your your book out of time. Uh. Where
can folks find that?
Speaker 3: Well, it's available from all recental outlets. You find out
on Amazon dot com, or you'll find it in Barns
and Noble and other high street bookstores all over the place.
Speaker 2: If it's not on the shelf, and the shelf, they can.
Speaker 3: Get a copy from the wholesaler because it's sold everywhere,
and it's doing really well in North America and it's
always it's been selling since this edition was published in
twenty twenty three, and it's sold continuously since August twenty three.
So this isn't coming up three years, so it's probably
still in the shops and it's certainly available on Amazon
for immediate It's in three formats, a hardback with color illustrations,
a paperback with grayscale illustrations, and an ebook, and all
three are available obviously, the ebooks available for immediate download,
because you know there's no printing involved.
Speaker 1: We're going to stop right here for tonight, but we
are not done. This was part one. In part two,
Steve takes us into the physical evidence, the implants, the
lab analysis, and the beings. He says, now walk among
us looking exactly. Guests, get this exactly like.
Speaker 2: You and me.
Speaker 1: You're not gonna want to miss it. And here's something
to sit with until then. Steve's book Out of Time
documents that forensic evidence. And in March of twenty twenty three,
guess what, it was pulled off of Amazon overnight. Stephen
Whitley Strieber both believe it was pulled because of what's
in those appendices. So ask yourself why a book like
that gets erased, But you can actually find it back
on Amazon. Now. We'll tell you all about that exactly
when we get back to part two next week. And
if you're new here, Subscribe and hit that bell so
when Part two lands in front of you, the minute
it drops, you'll know I'm Matt Ford. We'll see you
in Part two.