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Speaker 1: Some people spend fifty years trying to forget the thing

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they can't explain.

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Speaker 2: The next thing I knew.

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Speaker 3: I was surrounded by blue and indigo flashing lights, and

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through this big rectangular space in the wall, I saw

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a flying saucer.

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Speaker 1: He was sixteen, and something standing behind him had already

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decided he wouldn't remember.

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Speaker 3: I could feel somebody behind me, and this somebody said

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something that I heard in my head. It said, you're

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not going to remember anything about this, and it.

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Speaker 1: Had been happening since before he could remember.

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Speaker 3: I just had a weird life, and things happened to

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me that didn't seem to happen to other people so much.

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Speaker 1: Part one of a two part conversation with Steve Aspen.

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And before we're done, we're going to ask who else knew.

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Let's find out everyone. Welcome to the Good Trouble Show.

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I'm Matt Ford. For years on this show, I made

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a decision we'd stick to the nuts and bolts of

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the UAP story, the national security angle, the legislation, the

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fight in Washington, and I stayed away from one part

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of it, the abduction part. So about a year or

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so ago, I realized that this was a mistake, because

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this has happened to millions of people and they deserve

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to be taken seriously. My guest tonight is not a

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tourist in this subject. He says it has happened to

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him his entire life, and to his mother and her

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mother before and her mother before that. He's spent seven

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years working alongside the late David Jacobs. He was a

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close friend of the man who put the alien abduction

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phenomenon the map, Bud Hopkins, and he has spent fifteen

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years taking this evidence into real laboratories. He's the author

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of Out of Time, I'm the Intergenerational Abduction Program Explored

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and a second book with doctor Andreas Luck, the brand

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new Investigating the Impossible Biology offers new answers and insights.

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He's joining us from Lincolnshire, England, and this is part

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one of a two part conversation tonight his story and

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how the world came to take him seriously. Please welcome

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Steve Aspen. Steve, welcome to a Good Trouble show. I

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understand what you're in Lincolnshire in the UK? Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Yes, Hi, Mats.

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Speaker 3: We're in the Lincolnshire Walls, which is a picturesque pass

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of a very rural county. Lincolnshire is full of agriculture

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and wild spaces, and we're in one of the wild spaces.

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Speaker 1: And I take it it's probably cold and rainy there right.

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Speaker 3: It's boiling hots at the moments, blue skies and thirty

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two degrees celsius, which is about ninety five. Know, it's

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about one hundred degrees fahrenheits.

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Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, you're actually yeah, yeah, I know you're you're

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you're actually way hotter than it is here today is

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about seventy degrees fahrenheit. Actually, I have last time I

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was in the UK was around nineteen ninety four, and

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so it's been a long time. And of course I've

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made all of these new friends in the UK with

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this whole UAP business, and so when I finally make

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it out there, I'll definitely have to have to pay

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you a visit. But seriously, thank yeah, thank you, thanks

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for joining us on the show. Super glad to have

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you and kind of how this came about. I was

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on the Good Trouble Show. We've pretty much stuck to

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on the UAP topic, the national security and legislative lens.

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More of the nuts and bolts, and I sort of

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made a decision early on that I was going to

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stay away from the reduction part of this whole topic.

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And it was probably about a year ago. I said,

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you know what, that's a real mistake because there are obviously,

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you know, millions of people that this has happened to.

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I believe it to be true and it's something that

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is worth addressing. So there's a whistleblower friend of mine

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who I reached out to and said, you know what,

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I want to do a serious, extensive episode on the

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abduction phenomena. Who should I speak with? And he immediately

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said you're the guy, and then also spoke to Robert

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Hastings and Robert agreed as well. So, yeah, man, super

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glad to have you on here. Steve walk us through

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the morning of twenty second of July nineteen seventy two.

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You were sixteen. You were working, as I understand it,

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at a nursery, a Rose nursery in Cheshire. What's the

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first thing you remember about that?

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Speaker 3: Well, on the twentieth through July, which is actually the

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bird anniversary of the Apollo eleven moon landing. By pure coincidence,

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it was a Thursday in nineteen seventy two, and I

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had a very peculiar compulsion to get up early on

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Saturday morning because I was to go somewhere. Now, this

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is the most bizarre and peculiar thing to say to people,

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so I kept it to myself for many years. But

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I had just had a compulsion, and I knew that

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on Saturday I would nowhere to go. And sure enough,

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very early in the morning, about five point thirty quarter six,

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I got up, put my clothes on and left a

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family home. I was living with my parents when I

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was sixteen and planning to go to university when I

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was eighteen, two years after in a different part of

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the country, but at this time I was living with

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my nuclear family in Cheshire.

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Speaker 2: I just walked out the door and I knew where

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to go.

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Speaker 3: I knew it had to head out into about a

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mile away from where we were living. There was agriculture

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and farmland around where we lived, and there was one

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little place where some new houses were being built, maybe

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at ten or fifteen of them, brand new dwellings that

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none of them were habited at the time. They were

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all under construction, so they had all walls were brick,

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walls were built, and the roof timbers were in, but

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they didn't have any tiles on the roofs and in

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between the most of the floors were in, but some

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of the buildings just had the wooden rafters with no

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flooring in yet. So it was a building site with

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cment mixers around them, piles of bricks, and it was deserted, obviously.

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At six o'clock in the morning on a Saturday, and

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I thought, okay, I'm here, now what the next thing

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I knew? I was surrounded by blue and indigo flashing

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lights all over all around me, and the kind of

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woo woo woo kind of sound, and the beeping sound

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on top of that, and I could feel or sense

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somebody behind me, and this somebody said something that I

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heard in my head rather in my ears. It said,

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you're not going to remember anything about this. You completely

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forget about it, so don't even try to remember.

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Speaker 2: And through.

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Speaker 3: One of the walls right in front of my vision

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was a big rectangular space with where a window was

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to be fitted, but at this point in the building

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process there was no window fitted. There was just an

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empty space, not even a window frame. And through this

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big rectangular space in the war, I saw a flying

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saucer and I'll tell you what. If you've seen the

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S four film featuring Bobb Lazar in the past couple

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of months, it looked exactly like the Sport Model. And

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I've remembered this object for fifty years, and it was

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only when I saw Bob's representation of the Sport Model

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from his memory, because nobody has filmed or photographed it

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in the as so far as I know that, I

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recognized it is exactly that vessel with the same proportions,

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the same black rectangles around the top, the same shape,

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the same shape and size, and it was drifting in

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my vision from my left to my right through this

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this hole in the.

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Speaker 2: Wall, and.

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Speaker 3: It looked like it wasn't part of our reality. It's

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very difficult to describe this. I say in the book.

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It looked like it was out of time. It's like lick.

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It was there, but it wasn't. And it was like

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I was looking into a different dimension or was it

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was distorting time somehow, distorting the space around it. And

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this is a bizarre thing to say to anybody in

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nineteen seventy two in rural England, when this will just

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sound completely crazy, and suddenly it just everything stopped. The

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lights were gone, the sound was gone, the UFO was gone.

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The person I sensed behind me wasn't there, and I

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was just in a building site. And I looked at

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my watch and it was quarter past eight, so I'd

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lost two hours and fifteen minutes or maybe slightly more

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than that, and it was completely disappeared from my memory.

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And I didn't understand anything about what might be going

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on because in nineteen seventy two in rural England, nobody

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had heard of alien abduction. Nothing was in the public

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domain about it. It's possible that a few people in

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the population, you know, one or two percent of the

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population who you know, followed the UFO subjects and read

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Flying Source of Review as an example, which I later

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found out was a popular publication through those years. Had

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heard of the Hillcase in New Hampshire in nineteen sixty

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one because John Fuller had published his book in nineteen

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sixty six. I'm not sure how many copies were sold

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in the UK or how many people knew about it,

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but it was known by very very few people, and

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there's no media coverage of it. There was no news

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articles about it. So it was just unknown and what

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had happened. And as I was walking home, I felt

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this area of my cheek was wet and I wiped

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it away and it was a hot, warm, sunny morning.

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I don't really understand why it was that, but then

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it was wet again. And when I got home, I

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looked in the barroom mirror and I had a complete,

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a total circle, a disc of a burn shaped disc

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right under the eye socket. And it scabbed over after

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about four or five hours, and it didn't completely fade

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from view for three months, and then it was. It

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finally flaked off and disappeared in a way probably the

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most burns of a similar kind you know, would do.

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But I didn't have any sensation of burning. I just

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had this wet patch on the cheek and it was

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obvious that something had happened.

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Speaker 1: So that was the wetness. I'm sorry, was the wetness

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blood or just.

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Speaker 2: What it was?

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Speaker 3: Just it was just the skin seemed to be a

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layer of skin seemed to be missing, okay, And it

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was just it was just a disc, coin shaped disc

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of flesh below the eye. It wasn't a deep wound

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or anything. It was just like the top layer was

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scraped off and the rare underneath was red rather than

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you know, mordnly flesh colored. So something had happened that

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had done that, and I had I remembered the flying

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Saucer in the sky because you know, I knew from

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kids comic books and you know, a few Hollywood movies

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that have been released at the time, like the Day

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they are stood Still. You know, disc shaped spaceships were

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supposed to be in the future, in our future, you know,

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you know, after all this Apollo stuff had finished, and

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rockets and so forth, we were going to have a

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different kind of travel. But they were they were all

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science fiction, and they weren't They weren't past of anybody

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else every day world. So I couldn't make any sense

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of this at all. I don't want to digress, but

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I'd had other experiences in my childhood which demonstrated something

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to me was going on, and I was the focus

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of attention for something because I was.

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Speaker 2: The room was filled with the blue.

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Speaker 3: Light in the night time sometimes and I felt I

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was paralyzed, and I could feel and smell these creatures

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around me, and these whispering noises.

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Speaker 2: In my head.

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Speaker 3: Somehow and I was I could feel being moved and

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sensations sometimes, like when you're standing in an elevator in

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a tall building and he shoots up to the thirty

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floor and then it slows down and stops the action

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of it's slowing down.

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Speaker 2: You feel light.

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Speaker 3: You feel that the whole body feels light, you know,

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as the as you know your body weight continues and

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the elevator slows right down. It's that kind of sensation,

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which is the only thing I had it up to

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that time, which I would compare compare it to. And

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I felt like I was lying down on my back

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sometimes and I had no clothes on, and people were

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pushing needles into me and doing things in my nose

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and ears. And then I was back in bed and

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it was the morning. And I always remembered these nighttime incidents.

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They happened to once every four or five weeks right

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through my childhood, certainly from age five, maybe even before that.

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But I could never make and even in nineteen seventy two,

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after they did this incident in the building site, I

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didn't put those two things together that I then didn't

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realize that that might be in any way connected.

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Speaker 2: I just had a weird life.

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Speaker 3: And things happened to me that didn't seem to happen

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to other people so much, or it's all, but I

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didn't put the things together. And obviously nobody was talking

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about alien abduction as a thing because nobody had heard

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of it in nineteen seventy two in rural England.

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Speaker 2: It just wasn't known about.

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Speaker 3: Now, of course, it's on one thousand TV channels and

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it's talked about in you know, on the internet endlessly

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in various corners the internet. But in those days you

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couldn't find any reference to it anywhere, and it didn't

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you know that the whole concept didn't mean anything.

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Speaker 1: Of course, I want to jump back to this incident

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in nineteen seventy two. What do you make of the

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fact that this being told you, hey, don't worry, you're

253
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not gonna remember this, but in the end you did

254
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remember it, like I sometimes do you think that they

255
00:16:00,519 --> 00:16:02,320
know that you're going to end up remembering it.

256
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Speaker 3: What I did remember of the incident was the very

257
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end of it, and don't even remember the onsets of it.

258
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But if it was two hours and fifteen minutes, I

259
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just remember the sixty seconds or so at the end

260
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of it, and somehow the way they block their memories,

261
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there's a way they do that which I only discovered

262
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the past ten or fifteen years when I started.

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00:16:33,519 --> 00:16:37,799
Speaker 1: So you're walking back home, you feel wetness on your cheek,

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and you get home and there's a circular wound on

265
00:16:41,639 --> 00:16:44,559
your face. What do your mom and dad say about this?

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Speaker 3: I didn't know what to say because what had happened

267
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to me wasn't supposed to be real, and I just

268
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didn't know how to begin to explain it. So I

269
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just said, I don't know what happened. They just kind

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of have to me.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I woke up with it.

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Speaker 3: Maybe I banged it on the beds when sleeping or something,

273
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or scolded it on the tap. I just don't remember

274
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how it happened, and I just kind of dismissed it,

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you know, carried on with the day.

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Speaker 1: Before we get back to our guest real quick. If

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you're not subscribed, hit that button, ring the bell, leave

278
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a comment, give us a thumbs up. I know it

279
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sounds like a lot, but here's why it matters. And

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this is why all the other YouTube folks ask you

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to do the same thing. YouTube sees all of that

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and basically says to itself, Hey, maybe we should recommend

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this Good at Trouble Show to people who don't know

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what exists. That's how all that works. Also, find us

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on all the major podcast platforms if you like to

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And if it's not a good review, maybe forget about

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doing that. Also, we have no sponsors on this show,

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zero alive entirely by people like you, So if you

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want to help pay the studio rent here in LA,

293
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which isn't cheap, we are on Patreon at www dot

294
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295
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you can also support us right here on YouTube through

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memberships or super things. It means the world and finally

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took us three years, but we have our website up,

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Just go to www dot vgod troubleshow dot com. All right,

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back to the interview with Steve. Now, I understand your mother,

301
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:44,000
she passed away in two thousand. You mentioned earlier earlier

302
00:18:44,039 --> 00:18:46,640
when you were describing this, that you realized that this

303
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,960
had been happening to you for some time. So your

304
00:18:50,039 --> 00:18:52,759
mom passes away in two thousand. In her last years,

305
00:18:53,079 --> 00:18:55,920
she is a channeling poetry. I think you mentioned in

306
00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,160
the book around one hundred poems, some in dialects. She

307
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:03,680
didn't know. Well, when did When did you realize that

308
00:19:04,039 --> 00:19:08,279
what was happening to you had also happened to her?

309
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:10,440
Speaker 2: Well?

310
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,799
Speaker 3: When I was about eleven years old in one of

311
00:19:13,839 --> 00:19:17,640
these nights, during one of these nighttime incidents, I asked

312
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,599
one of the abductors, because you'd learned to speak to

313
00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,440
them in your mind and you frame the question in

314
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,920
your mind, they don't necessarily, it's not that they read

315
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,759
your thoughts, but they had dialogue with you without any

316
00:19:31,799 --> 00:19:35,160
words and without any sound. That's that's what this telepathy

317
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,319
is like. And I asked this one. It was he

318
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,839
was standing about two meters away from me with back

319
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,519
to me, doing doing something across the other side of

320
00:19:44,559 --> 00:19:51,039
the room. And I asked him, why have I been

321
00:19:51,079 --> 00:19:53,920
singled out for this special treatment?

322
00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:55,960
Speaker 2: Why am I the lucky one?

323
00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:01,079
Speaker 3: Why don't my friends or you know, of my schoolmates

324
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,599
that I knock around with them, you know, play football,

325
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,640
with why don't they seem to undergo this kind of

326
00:20:08,559 --> 00:20:12,160
you know, these kind of thing the events that I undergo.

327
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:17,599
And he said to me telepathically, he said, it's because

328
00:20:17,599 --> 00:20:21,599
of your mother and your grandmother and your great grandmother

329
00:20:22,599 --> 00:20:25,720
and your next and he just carried on with what

330
00:20:25,759 --> 00:20:26,319
he was doing.

331
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:26,880
Speaker 2: Now.

332
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:31,720
Speaker 3: I retained the memory of that particular part of the

333
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:35,039
abduction for forty or fifty years. In fact, I can

334
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:40,839
still hear it now virtually. That was That was the

335
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:49,039
one percent of incidents, episodes from these abductions that I

336
00:20:49,079 --> 00:20:52,480
remember with clarity, and it just seems to live in

337
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:54,559
my mind. I forgot about it for years and then

338
00:20:54,599 --> 00:20:57,519
I suddenly remembered it, and it's always been there fairly

339
00:20:57,559 --> 00:21:01,640
near the surface because somehow it went in deep and

340
00:21:01,839 --> 00:21:07,559
it was retained. So he told me that this thing

341
00:21:07,759 --> 00:21:12,400
that they were engaged in was had an intergenerational component.

342
00:21:13,319 --> 00:21:16,599
And it was almost as though he said to me,

343
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,759
you know, you're part of the plan, you're one of

344
00:21:20,799 --> 00:21:23,599
the series, and it's your turn.

345
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:23,839
Speaker 2: Now.

346
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,079
Speaker 1: Wow, I'm curious. You said earlier you remembered the smell,

347
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,279
what they smelled like. And I've actually that's been something

348
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:36,400
I've always been curious about. I've never heard anyone speak

349
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,920
about it, except in the Varginia case. Yeah, what do

350
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:40,640
they smell like?

351
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:48,720
Speaker 3: They smell musty and old, like moldy cardboard when you're

352
00:21:48,799 --> 00:21:53,519
up close to them and something. Sometimes you know from memory,

353
00:21:53,559 --> 00:21:55,359
they don't really smell them much at all, But other

354
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,319
times they always smell musty. They smell like really old

355
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,839
things that are that are not really healthy. I mean,

356
00:22:03,839 --> 00:22:05,759
I'm sure they are healthy in their own ways, but

357
00:22:05,799 --> 00:22:08,480
that's what they smell like. They smell musty. And you know,

358
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,559
I always know that the smell comes with the abduction,

359
00:22:13,079 --> 00:22:16,119
the onset of the abduction experience with a parallel paralysis.

360
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:17,079
Speaker 2: The smell comes with.

361
00:22:17,039 --> 00:22:21,839
Speaker 1: It, Okay, and just sure. So that's so as soon

362
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,839
as you smell this thing, you realize I'm sure that

363
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:25,960
this is about to occur.

364
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, it kind of you know. Remember I'm in deep

365
00:22:30,799 --> 00:22:34,240
sleep and suddenly you know, you're not dreaming. You suddenly awake,

366
00:22:34,279 --> 00:22:38,000
and you don't you take a few seconds to a

367
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,599
climatize to being awake, and then I really, this thing's

368
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,440
happening again, okay, right, And there's nothing else, there's nothing

369
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,759
I can do about saying it now.

370
00:22:46,799 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 1: For the viewers that haven't read your book, What is

371
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:56,519
the program? And one paragraph describe the program? And also

372
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,720
why do you call this whole thing the program instead

373
00:22:59,759 --> 00:23:01,279
of the abduction phenomenon?

374
00:23:02,839 --> 00:23:08,640
Speaker 3: Very good questions, Matt. It's I think it's not. I'm

375
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,400
not the originator of the idea of the program. Is

376
00:23:11,559 --> 00:23:16,599
it's something David Jacobs talks about speculatively for many years,

377
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:26,200
and he in particular emphasized the planned and routine aspects

378
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:31,319
of this. But it's it's something that is being prosecuted

379
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:36,440
on a minority of the human population worldwide. I think

380
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,640
it's Terry Lovelace and I you know Terry lovelaceil you

381
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,200
know who he is, and he he and I differ

382
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,319
in the number of people we think are involved in it.

383
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,599
I think it's about two percent of the population. He

384
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,240
thinks it's about ten percent. But it's a minority of

385
00:23:54,279 --> 00:24:00,000
the population, and it's definitely goes down an intergenerational lae.

386
00:24:00,319 --> 00:24:03,720
And I think the evidence that this part of the

387
00:24:03,759 --> 00:24:09,279
program either was an initiated or massively accelerated in the

388
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,759
last decade of the nineteenth century is very strong. But

389
00:24:14,039 --> 00:24:16,200
we may not go into that today because you know,

390
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:21,359
it's a bit complicated. But when this entity said to

391
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,400
me when I was eleven, it's because of your mother,

392
00:24:24,839 --> 00:24:28,559
your grandmother, and your great grandmother and your next he

393
00:24:28,599 --> 00:24:32,519
didn't extend it back centuries. He just said it was

394
00:24:32,599 --> 00:24:35,359
it's because of your mother, your grandmother, and your great mother,

395
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:42,799
full stop or period, as you would say. So he

396
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:48,000
was telling me that they sometimes tell you things because

397
00:24:48,039 --> 00:24:50,960
they don't think you remember, or they don't think it's important,

398
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:53,960
or they just they just live with it, you know.

399
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,839
He told me that then, effectively, that this was an

400
00:25:00,079 --> 00:25:06,359
to generational genetic program that one the parents and one

401
00:25:06,519 --> 00:25:09,039
or more of the kids, and one or more of

402
00:25:09,079 --> 00:25:11,759
their kids and one or more of their or more

403
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,799
of their kids are in this program. And there's a

404
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:21,039
reason why they do this, which we can speculate about embassy,

405
00:25:21,079 --> 00:25:25,160
but what we know is that this is so if

406
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:30,680
you're an abductee, then you are. You are repeatedly abducted

407
00:25:30,759 --> 00:25:34,640
throughout your lifetime. You probably don't remember ninety nine percent

408
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,920
of the incidents because of the way the very covert

409
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,880
secrets of nature with which it's prosecuted. And you can

410
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,799
guarantee almost one hundred percent that one of your parents

411
00:25:48,279 --> 00:25:51,599
was that your genetic parents was in the program, one

412
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,480
of their parents was in the program, and one of

413
00:25:54,519 --> 00:25:57,480
your children, at least one of your children, if you

414
00:25:57,519 --> 00:26:00,880
have any children, will be in the program. This is

415
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:06,240
pretty widely acknowledged now by all abduction researchers or anybody

416
00:26:06,599 --> 00:26:09,680
who has interviewed enough to abductees and got enough data.

417
00:26:10,319 --> 00:26:15,039
Almost everybody acknowledges that this is a core part of

418
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:19,000
the whole phenomenon is the intergenerational nature of the program

419
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,920
on a minority of a human population. Those things we know.

420
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:28,599
The why is the why of that is a completely

421
00:26:28,599 --> 00:26:29,279
different question.

422
00:26:29,559 --> 00:26:32,640
Speaker 1: Your incident in nineteen seventy two, and you mentioned that

423
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,480
you had stuff that you were aware of that had

424
00:26:36,519 --> 00:26:40,440
taken place prior to that. I'm curious, as an adult

425
00:26:40,839 --> 00:26:43,680
had are these things still happening to you?

426
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, they do happen, but in my case with less frequency,

427
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,799
or it seems to be less frequency than as a child.

428
00:26:54,839 --> 00:27:01,079
But they do continue right throughout life. And there's an

429
00:27:01,079 --> 00:27:05,759
incident that happened in nineteen seventy six, a few years

430
00:27:05,759 --> 00:27:08,319
after this, when I was a young young adult. I

431
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,400
was twenty and I was at the university University of Southampton,

432
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:19,000
which is a city on the South Coast and I

433
00:27:19,079 --> 00:27:22,759
was trying to finish an essay which I had to

434
00:27:22,799 --> 00:27:29,720
get into to the tutorial on Monday on a Saturday evening,

435
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,279
and one of the girls in the house because it

436
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:38,640
was a shared student house, and came back from the

437
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,599
pub with two male friends in tow and these guys

438
00:27:42,759 --> 00:27:47,039
were actually there were lecturers at the Polytechnic, which is

439
00:27:47,079 --> 00:27:52,440
a different educational institution in Southampton, and they said that

440
00:27:52,559 --> 00:27:56,079
they had all had the idea well while they were

441
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,160
in the pub when there was closing time, that they'd

442
00:27:59,519 --> 00:28:04,359
come and get me, who they understood was still finishing

443
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:11,519
his essay at home, and we go together to a

444
00:28:11,519 --> 00:28:14,599
place called Hurst Castle, which if you look at a map,

445
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:21,079
it's a fifteenth century fortress built on a promontory of

446
00:28:21,519 --> 00:28:24,920
rock and shindle which stretches out into the Solent, which

447
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:30,799
is a waterway which separates the Isle of White from

448
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:37,559
the mainland, and this promontory there's an old fifteenth century castle.

449
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,039
So we went out there because one of the guys

450
00:28:41,039 --> 00:28:43,359
had a car, you know, and a dopensop car which

451
00:28:43,359 --> 00:28:47,200
is a very hot summer like today here it's really

452
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,319
hot summer, so we were all wearing shorts and t

453
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,119
shirts at midnights because and it's really hot. It was

454
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,400
still really warm. We went out to this place and

455
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,519
we walked out on the shingle to to this place,

456
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,400
Hearst Castle. It's quite heavy walking. If you're walking a

457
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:09,640
mile on pebbles, you know, it's not always easy going.

458
00:29:09,839 --> 00:29:12,519
And we all had sandals on, so it's more more

459
00:29:12,519 --> 00:29:16,640
difficult initial it should have been. We saw an oval

460
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:22,119
shaped light which seemed to us to get brighter and

461
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:28,319
closer and then to recede and get dinner. And it

462
00:29:28,359 --> 00:29:31,039
slowly got larger and larger, and it moved around a

463
00:29:31,079 --> 00:29:34,759
bit like it zigzagged and moved around, and we really

464
00:29:35,599 --> 00:29:37,359
didn't know what it was, and we were a speculating

465
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,720
it was a helicopter. It's not an aircraft, or it's

466
00:29:39,759 --> 00:29:42,720
not a not a passenger plane, it's it's is it

467
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,359
a helicopter, Maybe it's maybe it's something military, maybe it's

468
00:29:46,319 --> 00:29:48,880
we we really didn't didn't understand what it was because

469
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,480
it wasn't a star, because stars didn't move like that,

470
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,160
you know, in this zigzag way, and then stars are

471
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,759
not that size. It was about half the size of

472
00:29:57,799 --> 00:30:05,039
the moon, I suppose. And suddenly I found myself lying

473
00:30:05,079 --> 00:30:11,720
on my back on a low wall, looking upwards at

474
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:17,279
a big disc above my head, and I had this

475
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:24,759
overpowering sensation that they acchoose that I kind of knew

476
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:32,039
there were people beings associated with this light. They were

477
00:30:32,119 --> 00:30:35,559
very pleased with me about something very bizarre thing to

478
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,720
discover and even more bizarre to even mention or talk

479
00:30:39,759 --> 00:30:42,359
about to people. So I didn't really talk about that

480
00:30:42,599 --> 00:30:44,559
aspect of it, but I did talk about the sighting.

481
00:30:45,359 --> 00:30:49,319
And then the thing zoomed off and it zig zagged

482
00:30:49,319 --> 00:30:51,920
across the sky, and it went in another direction, It

483
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,119
went in another direction, and then it went it sped

484
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,240
up to a very fast speed, and it turned. It

485
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,920
turned into a kind of straight line rather than disk,

486
00:31:01,519 --> 00:31:06,799
and it blurred and disappeared. Eventually it I think it

487
00:31:06,839 --> 00:31:13,200
was flying impression that it was flying almost upwards, and

488
00:31:13,279 --> 00:31:19,839
you know, at an angle, and the three companions of

489
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,359
mine were sitting about one hundred meters away on the

490
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,160
pebbles at at the water's edge, looking out to sea

491
00:31:28,759 --> 00:31:31,920
and not speaking, and they're just staring into into the sea,

492
00:31:32,079 --> 00:31:37,519
and for some reason I was separated somehow from them.

493
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:43,680
And so this was obviously to do with this thing

494
00:31:43,759 --> 00:31:47,039
that happens to me a loss, and I was a

495
00:31:47,079 --> 00:31:49,559
young I was a young adult, and you know, could

496
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,440
make no sense of that either. But the overpowering sensation

497
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:58,960
was that this sighting, I didn't call it an abduction

498
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:03,200
at the time, but this this sighting was I had

499
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:07,599
some kind of mental or telepathic communication with the beings

500
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:14,599
on board this thing, because there obviously were. They were

501
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,880
talking to me in my mind, but they were really

502
00:32:17,559 --> 00:32:20,960
very happy, very pleased with something I'd done with them

503
00:32:21,039 --> 00:32:23,680
or for them, and I had no idea what they meant.

504
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,039
I just had a very very powerful feeling.

505
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,359
Speaker 1: So maybe they were pleased that you brought three friends

506
00:32:30,359 --> 00:32:37,039
for them to take up in the craft. I don't know, but.

507
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,119
Speaker 2: I think they were.

508
00:32:40,279 --> 00:32:42,759
Speaker 3: They spent the whole time sitting on the beach staring

509
00:32:42,759 --> 00:32:45,200
out to see I think they were years ago.

510
00:32:45,839 --> 00:32:49,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's go back again to nineteen seventy, summer

511
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,480
nineteen seventy in County Kerry. I think it's what you

512
00:32:54,519 --> 00:32:57,200
talk about in the book. So you were fourteen at

513
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,519
the time, and a local farm board showed you a

514
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:05,240
mutilated cow which had kind of the sort of typical

515
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:10,279
stuff you hear with cattle mutilations. Cord, cavity, no blood,

516
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,880
no tracks, anything like that. Nothing. It looks like a

517
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,279
coyote took this thing down. And you know, And that

518
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,440
was at least forty years before Linda molten Howe published

519
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,920
her Irish cases. Tell Us about, tell us about all that,

520
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,440
what you saw, and you know what you thought about

521
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,279
it at the time, and what you think about it now?

522
00:33:32,599 --> 00:33:36,680
And more importantly, what, because I've wondered this, what you

523
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,160
think that aspect of the phenomenon actually is.

524
00:33:41,759 --> 00:33:42,039
Speaker 2: Well.

525
00:33:44,119 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 3: At age fourteen, we went to Southwest Island on a

526
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:57,519
holiday and in nineteen seventy and the breakfast table when

527
00:33:57,559 --> 00:34:01,240
we just finished breakfast, were staying in a farmhouse near

528
00:34:01,319 --> 00:34:05,559
a little town and in counter Kerry near this about

529
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:10,800
two miles from the sea maybe, and the son of

530
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,119
the farmer who was eleven years old, lily younger than me,

531
00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:17,320
but very savvy, very I mean he lad the cows

532
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,639
and helped out the far farm workers, quite a smart kid.

533
00:34:21,599 --> 00:34:24,599
He came up to me and took me by the

534
00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:27,239
elbow and took me to one side and said, come

535
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,079
with me. I want to show you something. And so

536
00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:33,360
we walked I walked out with him and we walked

537
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:36,800
through part of the farm and up up the hill,

538
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,639
up the local hill, and down and up another hill

539
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:46,440
and came into a flat area in the little valley

540
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:51,920
and there on the ground was a cow obviously dead

541
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:58,000
with it's it's you know when cattle die or sleep,

542
00:34:58,159 --> 00:35:01,920
they go flat and they're their limbs lie on the ground.

543
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:07,559
You know, Well, draw my gravity. This cow, it's it's

544
00:35:07,679 --> 00:35:13,800
limbs were sorry, I'm trying. Its limbs were sticking up

545
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,360
in the air. I can't get it. Can't get this

546
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,400
in the screenshots.

547
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: But I see, I see it.

548
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's limbs was sticking up rigid. All four

549
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,639
limbs were rigid, and they were sticking up in the air.

550
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,679
Speaker 2: And it was on its side like that.

551
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:37,079
Speaker 3: And we approached it from the back and the whole

552
00:35:37,119 --> 00:35:40,960
of the rectal and genital area was carved out in

553
00:35:41,039 --> 00:35:47,360
a perfectly circular tunnel going back into the the animals insides,

554
00:35:47,599 --> 00:35:50,800
and it was like quarterized, so there was no blood there,

555
00:35:51,159 --> 00:35:51,639
but it was.

556
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 2: It was obviously it.

557
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 3: Was like somebody had don't use a massive surgical instrument

558
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,480
to cut something else and had then prevented any blood

559
00:36:00,519 --> 00:36:05,280
blood flow. And one of its ears was cuss off

560
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,000
and missing one of his eyes was gouged out, and

561
00:36:09,039 --> 00:36:12,119
there was a hole where its eye was, just a

562
00:36:12,159 --> 00:36:15,360
big red hole in its skull where the eye was,

563
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:20,079
and part of its jaw bone was missing, exposing its jaw,

564
00:36:20,159 --> 00:36:23,800
its white jaw, and it was obviously comte.

565
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 2: I mean, what had happened to it?

566
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 3: We don't know. The lad told me that the vets

567
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,840
had already been out to see this cow in that morning,

568
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:41,599
and the vet had taken a look at it and

569
00:36:41,679 --> 00:36:47,079
told the farmer his dad, the lad's dad. He told

570
00:36:47,079 --> 00:36:52,960
the farmer that the cow had died of anthrax, which

571
00:36:53,199 --> 00:36:56,119
you know, I didn't. I've never heard of anthrax when

572
00:36:56,119 --> 00:37:00,519
I was fourteen. But from what I know of anthrak now,

573
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,360
there's no possibility that the vet could have thought that,

574
00:37:06,199 --> 00:37:11,760
And there's no possibility that a diagnosis anthrax fitted the circumstances.

575
00:37:13,199 --> 00:37:16,239
And if they had a single case of anthrax on

576
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,000
any farm in County Kerrier or anywhere in else in island,

577
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,800
the whole region would have been evacuated.

578
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,079
Speaker 2: Sure is that dangerous?

579
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 3: So the explanation didn't fit the facts, But that's what

580
00:37:31,519 --> 00:37:36,880
the farmer was told, probably because the vet was completely

581
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,719
mystified and had no idea what had happened to that cow,

582
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:42,960
and he felt he had to tell the farmer something.

583
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:46,119
And he probably thought he had to tell the farmer

584
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:50,679
something that the farmer would believe, because the farmer had

585
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:55,880
no knowledge of or anthrax as a disease. So he

586
00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:00,920
floated that as an idea, this cow died of anthrax

587
00:38:01,039 --> 00:38:04,000
in order to give the farmer an explanation that he

588
00:38:04,159 --> 00:38:05,280
could be satisfied with.

589
00:38:05,599 --> 00:38:08,039
Speaker 1: What is your sort of personal theory as to how

590
00:38:08,079 --> 00:38:13,039
this is connected to the abduction phenomenon and why do

591
00:38:13,079 --> 00:38:15,559
you think this is happening to these animals?

592
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,199
Speaker 2: Do you know, Matt? To be honest, I have no idea.

593
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 3: I met Linda Howe, and I've met other people researching

594
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:28,639
the animal mutilations. I've seen her documentary in the nineteen

595
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:33,320
from the nineteen nineties, Strange Harvest, and I've read her book.

596
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:40,400
And the reasons behind why this is being done are

597
00:38:40,599 --> 00:38:46,960
very difficult to fathom. What is known is that glowing,

598
00:38:47,159 --> 00:38:53,199
unidentified flying objects are seen very often in the vicinity

599
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,519
of the areas where these cattle go missing, and they

600
00:38:57,599 --> 00:39:00,119
turn up dead the next day with these kinds of

601
00:39:00,159 --> 00:39:05,000
this pattern of mutilations, and sometimes they turn up in

602
00:39:05,159 --> 00:39:10,800
trees as if they've been dropped from above and they've

603
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,880
landed in the tree and they've stayed there. So, you know,

604
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:18,559
it's the idea that is a it's a predator on

605
00:39:18,599 --> 00:39:21,360
the ground putting a cow up in a tree.

606
00:39:21,559 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 2: It is beggars belief.

607
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:28,559
Speaker 3: And there's no similarity between the actions of a predator

608
00:39:28,679 --> 00:39:32,519
like a mountain lion or something, what the mountain lion

609
00:39:32,559 --> 00:39:35,320
would do to a cow, which they occasionally kill cows,

610
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:40,880
very rarely, but occasionally they do. And these these characteristics

611
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:45,119
of these these mutilations, they are completely different things. I

612
00:39:45,639 --> 00:39:47,840
just don't know what they're doing. I mean, there are

613
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,519
certain things like a cow's gestation period is nine months,

614
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:56,719
the same as a human gestation period, and they have

615
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:01,239
twins with exactly the same incidents as human do. But

616
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,559
you know, three hundred and fifty out of four hundred

617
00:40:04,599 --> 00:40:08,920
births are single, single calves. So there's there are certain

618
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,199
and there are certain similarities I understand in the in

619
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,719
the blood type and in the tissue types of cattle

620
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,639
and humans, which you know, humans don't share with most

621
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,639
other mammals. So there are genetics similarities, but they're not

622
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,920
you know, they're not obviously that close, and it's very

623
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,000
difficult to understand what they're playing out. I mean that

624
00:40:29,039 --> 00:40:31,840
there is something being done to these animals. I'm not

625
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,760
sure whether they're still continuing, are they, because I've not

626
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,480
heard any reports of them recently, but I know there

627
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:43,400
were there's a big epidemic of these these these mutilations

628
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:48,440
in the nineteen nineties, nineteen eighties and nineties nineteen eighties originally.

629
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,760
And I don't know whether it fits in with the

630
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,599
abduction subjects, to be honest, or whether this is a

631
00:40:55,639 --> 00:41:00,480
completely different set of you know, aliens or whatever they are.

632
00:41:00,519 --> 00:41:03,480
They might be different or they might be the same lots.

633
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,159
I just really can't make any sense of it. It

634
00:41:08,199 --> 00:41:10,400
doesn't really fit with the abjunction of narrative.

635
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 1: It's all, yeah, it's it's. I have no idea, obviously,

636
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:21,199
I've y know it totally is. Yeah, it's I'm a

637
00:41:21,199 --> 00:41:25,480
big fan of the show Skinwalker Ranch with Brandon Fugel

638
00:41:25,559 --> 00:41:29,360
and Travis Taylor, and of course they've had episodes where

639
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:34,039
they've had these, you know, these cow mutilations, and so

640
00:41:34,079 --> 00:41:37,679
I've always been fascinated by it, and I figure there

641
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,400
is some kind of connection, But but I really don't know.

642
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,280
I want to switch gears and talk about Bud Hopkins.

643
00:41:45,559 --> 00:41:48,199
Bud Hopkins is a name that's going to come a lot,

644
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,280
come up a lot in the show, I think, uh.

645
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,760
And for viewers who don't know who he, who he was?

646
00:41:56,199 --> 00:41:58,920
Who was he? And why does he matter in this field?

647
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,760
Speaker 3: Bud Hopkins was born in nineteen thirty one, and we

648
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:11,400
went to Oberlin College and that states in one of

649
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,840
the Midwestern states. I don't remember, is it a higher

650
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,960
I think it's Ohio. And he studied art and he

651
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,280
had he had polio as a child and he started

652
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:28,000
drawing at dage four and while he was in did

653
00:42:28,039 --> 00:42:33,400
recovering from the disease, and his teacher told him, but

654
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,320
you could be an artist one day, and he was.

655
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,480
He was very very good at drawing, very very good

656
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:43,480
at painting, and had that natural talent for it. And

657
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:49,559
it's he in his early twenties, he moved to after

658
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:54,679
he finished his degree, a bachelor's degree in artser to Oberlin,

659
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:59,159
he moved to New York City and settled there and

660
00:42:59,599 --> 00:43:01,719
in the art the art community of New York City,

661
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,599
and he had his first exhibition in his mid twenties

662
00:43:05,039 --> 00:43:08,480
in Manhattan and then started selling his art works and

663
00:43:08,519 --> 00:43:11,440
making a scratching a living from his art. But he's

664
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:18,480
a very very good artist. He had was able to

665
00:43:18,519 --> 00:43:23,880
buy a summer house in Cape cod at a knockdown

666
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:28,400
price because in the nineteen sixties property was not that expensive,

667
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,599
I mean you could afford it on a normal income.

668
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:34,159
And he used to go out there for the summer.

669
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,280
And he had a UFO sizing on Cape Cod one

670
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:43,480
summer I think in nineteen sixty four, in the company

671
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:47,159
of his then wife Joan Rich who is to whom

672
00:43:47,159 --> 00:43:50,559
he was married for thirteen years, and an English guy

673
00:43:50,599 --> 00:43:53,320
called Ted Rothon, who was a friend of them.

674
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:53,639
Speaker 2: Both.

675
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,519
Speaker 3: They had the three of them at a UFO sighting

676
00:43:57,599 --> 00:44:01,960
daylight UFO sighting in the late afternoon of a solid

677
00:44:02,079 --> 00:44:06,320
lensicular object, bright shiny objects which was moving in and

678
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,360
out of the clouds and obviously under intelligent control and

679
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,480
obviously what wasn't a conventional aircraft. And he was very

680
00:44:12,519 --> 00:44:17,119
intrigued by this, and he started, you know, collecting newspaper

681
00:44:17,119 --> 00:44:19,400
cuttings about find sources of sightings and so forth, and

682
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,480
taking and interesting the subject because he realized that something

683
00:44:22,519 --> 00:44:24,440
real was going on. He'd never given it any thought

684
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,760
before that sighting, and he painted a whole series of

685
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:33,639
paintings called some Black that I think he's fourteen of

686
00:44:33,679 --> 00:44:36,719
them in total, And there's an image of one of

687
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,800
these in this studio that I have put in out

688
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,800
of time, you know, because we found the one surviving

689
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,960
sun black art work from this series in this studio

690
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,480
after he died in twenty eleven, because the others have

691
00:44:51,599 --> 00:44:57,039
all been sold to collectors or galleries. And so he

692
00:44:57,079 --> 00:44:59,800
had an interest in the UFO subjects, and he had

693
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:07,400
a in when was it nineteen seventy something, seventy eight thereabouts,

694
00:45:07,519 --> 00:45:10,719
he went across the street to buy a bottle of

695
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:16,360
whiskey from a guy you know who ran the shop there,

696
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,719
owned and ran the shop there. He used to pop

697
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:22,800
in and chat for this guy, and he was I

698
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:27,559
can't remember his name, Obaski. He was Obaski. That that's

699
00:45:27,599 --> 00:45:30,199
not an Irish name. It was Obaski, just one word.

700
00:45:30,199 --> 00:45:36,440
He was an East European name, actually, so Obaski told

701
00:45:36,519 --> 00:45:41,760
him that he said he was He was a a

702
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:46,719
grumpy old guy who had seen everything in life and

703
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:51,719
resented most of it. Was how Budd described him and

704
00:45:53,559 --> 00:45:56,960
his character, you know, And he'd had this story experience.

705
00:45:57,039 --> 00:45:59,679
He lived in New Jersey and drove home at the

706
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:01,559
end of the nice you know, we closed the shop

707
00:46:01,599 --> 00:46:04,440
down at eleven o'clock in the evening and and drove

708
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,559
back to New Jersey across you know, through the one

709
00:46:06,559 --> 00:46:10,320
of the tunnel. I think it was on the New

710
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:15,679
Jersey side of the Manhattan and he had this experience

711
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,679
of of seeing a UFO land in a big park

712
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:25,719
at Hudson Valley Park, and some small creatures get out

713
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,280
of the of the UFO and takes all the samples

714
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:32,440
from the ground, which sounds an amazing story, but he

715
00:46:32,599 --> 00:46:38,559
was absolutely astounded and shocked by this and didn't know

716
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,960
who to who to talk to about it and who

717
00:46:42,039 --> 00:46:43,960
to tell us. He's told Bud Hopkins, you know, because

718
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,000
he just saw Bud most days really in the street

719
00:46:47,159 --> 00:46:50,440
or you know, in the in the uh, you know,

720
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,039
coming in the shop to buy this and that. And

721
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:57,280
so Bud got together with a guy called Ted Blucher,

722
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,840
who was a UFO investor, so he'd got to know

723
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:02,400
a little bit, you know, because he was interested in

724
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:07,599
the general subject. And they together investigated the case by

725
00:47:07,599 --> 00:47:11,079
interviewing people in the Hudson Park area on that night

726
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:17,039
of the sighting, and it turned out that the window,

727
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,440
a huge glass window of an apartment block, of an

728
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:24,679
apartment block adjacent to the park, had cracked from end

729
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:28,559
to end in a very thick glass window pane cracked

730
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:33,840
end to end as an ear splitting sound happened as

731
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:39,480
the object left the ground and flew off. And he

732
00:47:39,679 --> 00:47:45,159
had the security guard from the building witnessed this and

733
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,480
testified to exactly what he'd seen and how the window

734
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,400
had cracked and so forth. So what Bud did was

735
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:59,880
he wrote an article on this incident for the Village Voice,

736
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:08,960
which is a newspaper from the you know, the Greenwich

737
00:48:09,039 --> 00:48:12,800
Village essentially that part of Manhattan. The Village Voice and

738
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:18,119
Village Voice bought it off him and printed it published

739
00:48:18,159 --> 00:48:21,360
it with his named Bud Hopkins, you know, he was

740
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,199
the author of this article, is an artist from you know,

741
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:31,400
Greenwich Village, and within about six months Cosmopolitan magazine, which

742
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:36,159
is a very big circulation women's magazine in the nineteen seventies.

743
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,599
It's gone now, but it was, you know, in the

744
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,960
in the era of magazines. It was a very very

745
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:48,519
big selling magazine and with a readership of millions and

746
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:53,199
Cosmopolitan magazine bought this article and published it in Cosmopolitan.

747
00:48:54,679 --> 00:48:59,159
Bud always joke that it was it was between two articles.

748
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:04,039
On was what to wear on the first dates the

749
00:49:04,079 --> 00:49:07,480
other article. The other article was how to have an orgasm?

750
00:49:08,599 --> 00:49:11,880
This is this is This is Cosmo's bread and Butter

751
00:49:12,199 --> 00:49:15,639
in the nineteen seventies. Anyway, this, this article about this

752
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:19,360
UFO sighting in Hudson Park, written by this guy, Bud Hopkins,

753
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,239
this artist from Greenwich Village, appeared in Cosmic magazine and

754
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:30,119
so amazingly, over the next six months or so following

755
00:49:30,159 --> 00:49:34,800
this the publication Cosmos publication of this article, thousands of

756
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:39,400
people wrote to Bud Hopkins about their UFO sightings, thinking

757
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,400
that he was some kind of experts, you know, and

758
00:49:42,559 --> 00:49:44,760
there were there was the he was an authority they

759
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,559
could tell this to and you know, so he'd take

760
00:49:47,639 --> 00:49:50,639
notice of it somehow, because the you know, the police

761
00:49:50,679 --> 00:49:53,920
weren't interested, the government wasn't interested. They didn't know where

762
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,760
to report their you know, a citing a UFO sighting.

763
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:03,119
And so Hopkins are this pile you this is before

764
00:50:03,159 --> 00:50:05,880
the days of email. He has piles of handwritten letters

765
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:09,360
and occasionally type letters in the mailbox every day from

766
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,639
all these people and who'd read this article in Cosmo

767
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:18,119
that he'd written. So he actually started wading through all

768
00:50:18,119 --> 00:50:21,599
these letters because he was interested in what people's reported

769
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:25,559
of their experiences, and he noticed the patterns emerging. He

770
00:50:25,679 --> 00:50:31,000
noticed that a significant minority of these people said that

771
00:50:31,679 --> 00:50:39,480
what happened was they experienced a period of missing time somehow.

772
00:50:40,079 --> 00:50:42,400
You know, they were outside at seven o'clock in the

773
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:45,719
evening and they saw something, and when they returned to

774
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:48,440
the house a minute later, it was half past eight

775
00:50:48,599 --> 00:50:53,920
or nine o'clock, and they couldn't make any sense of it.

776
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,679
They just reported to Hopkins, you know, and when he

777
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,280
started phoning some of these people up, you know, he

778
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:04,519
got much much more full and honest and open accounts

779
00:51:04,519 --> 00:51:06,960
because you know, they were willing to talk to somebody

780
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:12,000
who phoned them about this, and many of them reported

781
00:51:12,039 --> 00:51:15,719
the same things they reported they have They had found

782
00:51:16,519 --> 00:51:22,119
scars are or of certain patterns, you know, on their bodies,

783
00:51:23,159 --> 00:51:27,480
and they couldn't understand how they got there, and they

784
00:51:27,519 --> 00:51:30,519
were very unusual, you know, like straight line scars or

785
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:35,519
little chunks of flesh removed from the soft tissue areas

786
00:51:35,559 --> 00:51:38,719
the body, like behind the legs, or behind the shoulders,

787
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:42,559
and they they they or their partners have discovered this

788
00:51:42,559 --> 00:51:46,000
this little scoop mark in the in the flesh, that

789
00:51:46,039 --> 00:51:48,639
there was this little line across the middle, whether you know,

790
00:51:48,679 --> 00:51:53,280
they're like something some surgical instruments had been used to

791
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:56,400
snip out a piece of flesh or something and joined it.

792
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:01,000
And so many of people who'd have you sightings reported

793
00:52:01,039 --> 00:52:03,920
all these things. They all reported that the night they

794
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:06,039
had a sighting, the or the day they had a sighting,

795
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,679
they just had a deep feeling that something really strange

796
00:52:10,679 --> 00:52:13,519
had happened that worried them and they just couldn't get

797
00:52:13,559 --> 00:52:17,159
to the bottom of it. So what he did during

798
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:21,400
the year following the publication of Cosmo article, he contacted

799
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:24,960
about twenty or thirty of these people. And some of

800
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:28,239
these people were so convincing, and their stories were so

801
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:32,280
consistent and matched each other so closely, and they were

802
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,559
all from all over the place, all over. He tended

803
00:52:35,599 --> 00:52:39,440
to phone only people in the New York State area

804
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:41,039
or even the New York City area because there were

805
00:52:41,039 --> 00:52:43,920
so many of them in total, because they were local

806
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:46,280
and he had the opportunity to meet them if they

807
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:50,440
were willing to meet up with him, and there were

808
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:56,719
a couple of psychiatrists, Aphrodite Klaimar was one of them,

809
00:52:57,039 --> 00:53:01,360
who were customers of Bud's art. They appreciated his arns

810
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:04,639
and has bought a number of works from him for

811
00:53:04,679 --> 00:53:13,199
their own collections, and they volunteered to give offer regressive

812
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:17,119
hypnosis to these people if they consent to it, to

813
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:20,199
find out if they're remembered anything. And that's how the

814
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:27,039
whole thing about alien abduction started, the investigation into alien

815
00:53:27,079 --> 00:53:32,159
abductions started. There'd been certain cases before that. The Aper

816
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:36,960
Organization published book about alien abductions to a couple of

817
00:53:37,199 --> 00:53:41,039
years earlier, and a writer called Raymond Fowler, who's still

818
00:53:41,039 --> 00:53:46,599
with us, who is ninety one now, had started researching

819
00:53:46,639 --> 00:53:48,719
these cases as well. They said that move on state director.

820
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:50,440
I think he was a move on state director in

821
00:53:50,519 --> 00:53:56,599
Massachusetts in those days, so that there were some instances

822
00:53:56,639 --> 00:54:00,320
of people researching this phenomenon prior to both. But he

823
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:02,920
did this in a very systematic and organized way, and

824
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:07,719
it was very thorough and he became He wrote all

825
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:12,199
this case work up and came to a series of

826
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:16,079
common themes, and he wrote it all out as a

827
00:54:16,159 --> 00:54:18,639
manuscript and submitted it to a publisher, and he was

828
00:54:18,679 --> 00:54:22,360
published I think by Hampton Rhodes in nineteen eighty or

829
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:27,440
eighty two, and it's called Missing Time, which was surprisingly

830
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:30,400
a New York Times bestseller, you know, which for a

831
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:35,800
first Affer was quite something. And Missing Time was all

832
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,239
all these strings together and put it on the map

833
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:43,960
as a phenomenon, a thing that happened to people, which

834
00:54:44,039 --> 00:54:47,800
was associated with unidentified flying objects, and it's part of

835
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:49,559
the discussion of the subject.

836
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:54,760
Speaker 2: And Hopkins really really, you know, made it legitimate.

837
00:54:55,639 --> 00:54:59,199
Speaker 3: And he got invited to speak at conferences and he

838
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:04,199
had at think two hundred conferences appearances in his last

839
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:08,440
twenty or thirty years of his life. And he collected

840
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,599
a group of people around him, which he became known

841
00:55:12,599 --> 00:55:16,800
as the Intruders Foundation, who worked as volunteers, collecting donations

842
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:19,920
and so forth, and running the office, you know, and

843
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:24,119
giving advice to people and linking the people up with

844
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:27,679
hypnotherapists were willing to work for free and so forth.

845
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:31,599
And you know that this whole circus got started. And yeah,

846
00:55:31,599 --> 00:55:34,840
this is where the alien abduction narrative starts, and Hopkins

847
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:40,760
got David Jacobs was the professor of history at Temple

848
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:44,440
University in Philadelphia, who'd taken interest in the UFO subjects

849
00:55:44,639 --> 00:55:49,360
as a young student, really and he'd always followed it

850
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,840
and he got Flying Source review because a lot like

851
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:54,599
Hopkins and a lot of people, he was just intrigued

852
00:55:54,639 --> 00:55:57,960
by the idea that aliens might be visiting us and

853
00:55:58,039 --> 00:56:01,000
you know, that we might make contacts one day.

854
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:02,559
Speaker 2: And he was intrigued by it.

855
00:56:02,679 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 3: And he'd always been leery of abductions, talk of abductions,

856
00:56:09,199 --> 00:56:13,119
because he'd thought it was too far fetched and unlikely

857
00:56:13,159 --> 00:56:13,639
to be real.

858
00:56:13,679 --> 00:56:15,039
Speaker 2: And it was probably.

859
00:56:17,039 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 3: What is you say, probably psychological m hm, Probably something psychological.

860
00:56:23,519 --> 00:56:29,119
But he was in New York City on some errand

861
00:56:29,159 --> 00:56:35,239
or of the some business, and he was with Tracy Toomey,

862
00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:38,039
who was the son of Tracy Tomey is a filmmaker,

863
00:56:38,079 --> 00:56:40,440
that he's the son of Melt tour May, the opera singer.

864
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:46,960
And he knew Tracy tour May really well. And Tracy said, oh,

865
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:49,639
we're in We're in Greenwich Village. Why don't we go

866
00:56:49,679 --> 00:56:53,519
and see Bud Hopkins Because Bud had known Melt tour

867
00:56:53,599 --> 00:56:56,760
May for many years, you know, the op just in

868
00:56:56,760 --> 00:57:02,480
his social circle. And Jacobs was very reluctant to do

869
00:57:02,519 --> 00:57:05,840
this because he knew Hopkins's reputation is a bit fringe

870
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:12,079
on the UFO circuits, and he had no trouble with

871
00:57:12,159 --> 00:57:14,679
this talk of this abduction stuff. He just thought it

872
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:20,079
was all psychological and probably you know, people's imaginations and

873
00:57:20,159 --> 00:57:20,480
so forth.

874
00:57:20,519 --> 00:57:22,239
Speaker 2: He couldn't possibly be real, could it.

875
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 3: And anyway, they found Bud Hopkins's house and they rang

876
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:31,679
the doorbell and Bud was home, because he's usual usually

877
00:57:31,679 --> 00:57:35,280
home as an artist, you know, artists and nesters and

878
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:40,880
musicians and nomads, they say. So Bud was a nest,

879
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:43,679
you know. Obviously he has had his studio in the

880
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:47,440
West sixteenth Street, in the basement of the house. And

881
00:57:49,079 --> 00:57:51,320
he found that David was very interested in the UFO

882
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:56,039
subjects generally and took Flying Source of Review and you know,

883
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:59,760
and went to conferences and read stuff about the UFO

884
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:03,840
sightings and so forth. So he started showing him his

885
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:10,559
abduction work. And when he discovered that David works at

886
00:58:10,559 --> 00:58:14,440
Temple University in Philadelphia, he went to a pile of

887
00:58:14,519 --> 00:58:18,119
these letters he'd been receiving, like you know, this power

888
00:58:18,239 --> 00:58:23,880
was this big, and he he said, these are the

889
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:26,719
people who've written to me from Philadelphia. Would you like

890
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:30,199
to call some of them, yeah, and find out for

891
00:58:30,239 --> 00:58:31,679
yourself if this is real.

892
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:33,199
Speaker 1: Sure.

893
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:37,199
Speaker 3: So that's how David Jacob's got involved in abduction research.

894
00:58:37,239 --> 00:58:40,599
And he went back home with these letters and he

895
00:58:40,719 --> 00:58:44,559
phoned Allan Heinech, you who knew really well at Northwestern University,

896
00:58:44,559 --> 00:58:47,159
and he asked how he has said, Alan, you know,

897
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:50,000
I went to see Bod Hopkins and when it was

898
00:58:50,199 --> 00:58:54,159
in the Manhattan, and you know, he's got some very

899
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:56,920
conpelling evidence about this abduction thing.

900
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:58,119
Speaker 2: He just seems to.

901
00:58:59,159 --> 00:59:01,639
Speaker 3: Know exactly how had to manage it. And you know,

902
00:59:01,719 --> 00:59:06,960
he's got psychologists and psychiatrists who are volunteering their time

903
00:59:07,039 --> 00:59:13,239
and and hypnotizing these people and regressing them and recovering memories.

904
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:17,360
And he's written a book about this and this and

905
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:21,119
that and the other. And David said to Alan Heinich,

906
00:59:21,239 --> 00:59:26,360
he said, you know, I was very impressed by Hopkins's research,

907
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:28,800
you know, and he's offered to introduce me to a

908
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:32,360
few of these people who've had sightings and claimed that

909
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:35,519
have been abducted and so forth. And he's given me

910
00:59:35,559 --> 00:59:38,599
a stack of letters of people from a Philadelphia who've

911
00:59:38,599 --> 00:59:43,440
written to him about their what they think of their experiences.

912
00:59:43,719 --> 00:59:48,880
Alan Heinich said to Jacob's don't touch abductions. David, don't

913
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:53,079
go near it. It's crazy. Just don't don't go near it.

914
00:59:53,119 --> 00:59:56,679
You know, don't you be contaminated by it. Don't touch it.

915
00:59:57,320 --> 00:59:57,599
Speaker 1: Wow.

916
00:59:58,599 --> 01:00:05,079
Speaker 3: David Jacobs did not take Alan Henik's advice good or ill,

917
01:00:05,639 --> 01:00:09,079
and he ended up being one of the foremost researchers

918
01:00:09,119 --> 01:00:12,760
of this issue that there's ever been. And I worked

919
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:16,280
with him for seven years between two thousand and nine

920
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:20,000
and twenty sixteen, and I helped to copy edit his

921
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:23,519
book Walking among Us and I appear in that book

922
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:26,360
under a pseudonym as well as one of the one

923
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:30,840
of his subjects. So he and I knew each other really,

924
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:33,400
really well. I still call him even though he's retired

925
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:37,199
from university life and retired from the field of production

926
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:39,719
research now, and he's in his mid eighties and he

927
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:44,880
lives in he lives in Everson, Illinois these days. But

928
01:00:46,599 --> 01:00:52,760
that's how David Jacob's in and Hopkins actually managed to

929
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:54,880
We don't tell the whole story, but he managed to

930
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:59,440
get John Mack involved in taking the subjects seriously as well.

931
01:00:59,719 --> 01:01:04,119
John being a psychiatrist who was very interested in mysticism.

932
01:01:03,639 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 2: And you know.

933
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:10,679
Speaker 3: That there's there's a kind of breath holistic breath therapy.

934
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:13,920
He researched and so forth, and he was interested in,

935
01:01:14,679 --> 01:01:19,440
you know, rather eccentric and and historical characters like T. Lawrence,

936
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:22,360
about whom he wrote a book called it A Prince

937
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:27,679
of Our Disorder, which was awarded the Pulitzer Prize. So

938
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:32,920
he was kind of interested in people's odd experiences, especially

939
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:35,639
when a lot of people seem to report the same

940
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:40,760
thing that was all equally quirky and they're the same characteristics.

941
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:45,639
And he was very intrigued by this. They didn't think

942
01:01:45,679 --> 01:01:49,159
it was He thought it was probably psychiatric in nature,

943
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:51,760
but he wanted to look into it. And that's how

944
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:57,599
John was was poaxed into abduction research. You know, because

945
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:02,039
of Hopkins. He opened the door so many people, and

946
01:02:02,119 --> 01:02:05,320
he opened the door. He started off so many researchers

947
01:02:06,239 --> 01:02:08,360
into looking into this issue.

948
01:02:08,719 --> 01:02:10,599
Speaker 1: And I understand you too were pretty close.

949
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I in two thousand and eight. I am in

950
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:19,800
August two thousand and eight. I was going out of

951
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:25,400
shower and janis my wife who you've seen on screen

952
01:02:25,719 --> 01:02:28,199
about an hour ago, because she helped me fix the

953
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:36,880
connection problem with the zoom he Janie saw pointed out

954
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:42,840
my shoulder and said, Steve, you've got what that thing

955
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:45,960
on your shoulder? It looks like one of those goop

956
01:02:46,079 --> 01:02:51,760
marks I've seen in books about abductions, and you've got

957
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:54,840
one on your shoulder, and I'm going to photograph it.

958
01:02:56,400 --> 01:03:02,039
So she did, and she sent the image to few

959
01:03:02,119 --> 01:03:05,719
people that she you know, we met at a UFO

960
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:09,519
conference amazingly, but she sent the image to a few

961
01:03:09,519 --> 01:03:11,639
people she knew in the US.

962
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:12,239
Speaker 2: One of whom was.

963
01:03:15,719 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 3: One of whom was Steve Bassett, and another another one

964
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:23,760
was a few people. One of the people she sent

965
01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:26,519
the image to was Piece Robbins, who had met her

966
01:03:26,559 --> 01:03:32,239
a conference in the Atlantic City a year earlier. And

967
01:03:33,360 --> 01:03:36,599
Pieter and I had swapped an email addresses and swap

968
01:03:36,639 --> 01:03:39,000
phone numbers and we stayed in contact even though he

969
01:03:39,039 --> 01:03:41,960
lived in in Ithaca at the time in the New

970
01:03:42,039 --> 01:03:47,519
York and I lived in London, in Greater London. And

971
01:03:47,599 --> 01:03:52,039
he sent the photograph of my scoop mark to Pietera.

972
01:03:52,239 --> 01:03:56,239
Piece Robbins showed it to Bud Hopkins, and Breakthrough Films

973
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:59,119
happened to be making a film about our Bud Hopkins's

974
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:02,920
life and work at the time, Breakthrough Films were a

975
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:04,199
Manhattan filmmaker.

976
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:06,079
Speaker 2: They won an.

977
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 3: A Sundance Award for their film about Joan Rivers called

978
01:04:12,679 --> 01:04:14,519
a piece of work, John Rivers, a piece of work.

979
01:04:14,559 --> 01:04:17,480
I don't know if you ever saw it, but yeah, that's

980
01:04:17,519 --> 01:04:21,599
a Breakthrough Films production. And Breakthrough Films were making a

981
01:04:21,599 --> 01:04:24,119
film about Bud Hopkins' life. So they were just around

982
01:04:24,159 --> 01:04:26,880
the corner, you know that their office was just around

983
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:31,400
the corner from West sixteenth Street, and Breakthrough Films wanted

984
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:35,360
a couple of scoop marks that had never been investigated

985
01:04:35,519 --> 01:04:40,679
or looked at by any dermatologist or pathologist and wish

986
01:04:40,840 --> 01:04:48,360
never been you know, examined even fresh, rather than you know,

987
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:51,440
ones that were already in the public domain. And they

988
01:04:51,599 --> 01:04:55,840
asked Bud if they could get this me and the

989
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:59,000
other abducts Sea who also.

990
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:06,239
Speaker 2: Was found who had a scoopmark scar. They and in.

991
01:05:08,840 --> 01:05:13,719
Speaker 3: Two thousand and eight, in September or October, Bud Hopkins

992
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:17,440
phoned me up one evening in my heart of shown,

993
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:20,280
Peter Robins has given me give me er number, and

994
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:22,000
he he asked if I would be willing to go

995
01:05:22,039 --> 01:05:25,239
some go over to New York City. I could stay

996
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:28,039
in his apartments if I wanted to to send me

997
01:05:28,079 --> 01:05:33,239
the hotel bills. And the condition was that Breakthrough Films

998
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:37,360
would take me to a dermatology clinic in Upper Manhattan

999
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:41,119
and they would have it this this scoop mark buy

1000
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:48,199
up seed by and analyzed by a dermatological lab, and

1001
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:50,559
they report about it would be written and it would

1002
01:05:50,559 --> 01:05:54,519
appear in the film, which actually was never finished. But

1003
01:05:54,679 --> 01:05:58,039
so that's how I ended up in Bud Hopkins's apartment

1004
01:05:58,079 --> 01:05:59,880
in December two thousand and eight and then ended up

1005
01:06:00,119 --> 01:06:04,559
interviewed by Breakthrough Films, and Bud and I were together

1006
01:06:04,559 --> 01:06:08,079
for a week, and you know, went out from meals

1007
01:06:08,119 --> 01:06:10,119
with the film crew every day and did this and that,

1008
01:06:10,639 --> 01:06:12,800
and this is how, you know, we got to know

1009
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:15,960
each other, and we got hid it off so well.

1010
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:17,480
Speaker 2: You know, we had so many things in common.

1011
01:06:17,519 --> 01:06:20,280
Speaker 3: We had similar tastes in art, and he's obviously much

1012
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:23,079
more knowledgeable than I was. We were interested in the

1013
01:06:23,559 --> 01:06:28,239
geopolitics and political history and so forth, and so we

1014
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:30,119
had tons and tons to talk about. He was a

1015
01:06:30,199 --> 01:06:36,480
jazz enthusiastic within a completely encyclopedia knowledge of jazz, and

1016
01:06:36,519 --> 01:06:38,480
he met most of the jazz musicians you know in

1017
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:42,480
the fifties and sixties that you know, famous ones like

1018
01:06:42,519 --> 01:06:43,840
Miles Davis and John Coltrane.

1019
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:47,760
Speaker 2: He met them all and so we.

1020
01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 3: Had a lot to discuss, and the relationship developed such

1021
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:53,760
that I went over there about three times a year

1022
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:58,800
for until twenty eleven when he died after a long illness.

1023
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:02,199
He died of cancer, you probably know, liver cancer and

1024
01:07:03,079 --> 01:07:08,360
a couple of other related pathologies. So but in those

1025
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:10,719
three years, we spent a lot of time together, a

1026
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:12,559
lot of one on one time together, a lot and

1027
01:07:12,679 --> 01:07:16,360
Need showed me a lot of his research. He showed

1028
01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:19,239
me his stuff that he didn't I had never revealed

1029
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:22,000
to anybody else, and discussed a lot of cases with

1030
01:07:22,079 --> 01:07:28,519
me that were really extraordinary. And you know, he introduced

1031
01:07:28,519 --> 01:07:31,519
me to the people involved in the witness case, you know,

1032
01:07:31,599 --> 01:07:34,519
the Brooklyn Bridge case, which he wrote a book about

1033
01:07:34,559 --> 01:07:39,599
called Witnessed, and so forth, and that's how the relationship developed.

1034
01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:42,159
I have to say that much of the time we

1035
01:07:42,199 --> 01:07:47,480
spent together wasn't wasn't spent talking about the abduction subject.

1036
01:07:48,119 --> 01:07:51,599
Obviously that was an important element of our conversation, but

1037
01:07:52,119 --> 01:07:55,320
that wasn't the only thing we discussed, and talked about.

1038
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:57,480
So that's how we got to know each other.

1039
01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:02,599
Speaker 1: Now, in chapter three of your book, you describe but

1040
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:08,039
Hopkins so called new age positives, and I'm quoting you here,

1041
01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:14,800
little cosmic Greta Thunberg's walk us through, Walk us through

1042
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:21,079
Hopkins four type framework for how you are, how people

1043
01:08:21,159 --> 01:08:25,680
react to this whole UAP or abduction phenomenon or vote.

1044
01:08:26,840 --> 01:08:31,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, he said, with all the people it mess who

1045
01:08:32,159 --> 01:08:35,920
discuss the general UAP subjects, it was it wasn't the

1046
01:08:36,039 --> 01:08:41,399
UAP term wasn't currency back then, they will refer to

1047
01:08:41,399 --> 01:08:46,199
as UFOs. He said, he could broadly drop the mental

1048
01:08:46,279 --> 01:08:50,239
one of four types of reaction. The first type was

1049
01:08:51,359 --> 01:08:54,800
the intelligent skeptics. And these are people who approach the

1050
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:58,680
subjects with a skeptical frame of mind. That's true meaning

1051
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:03,680
of the word skeptic. They investigate, they examined the evidence,

1052
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:09,880
they reject certain explanations that don't fit, and they come

1053
01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:12,199
out with a core of hard cases that they think

1054
01:09:12,319 --> 01:09:17,199
is something intriguing, unusual and real. And these people that

1055
01:09:17,319 --> 01:09:22,880
he referred to as the genuine skeptics, there's a category

1056
01:09:23,159 --> 01:09:28,119
which Category two was the New age positives.

1057
01:09:28,479 --> 01:09:30,039
Speaker 2: These are people who.

1058
01:09:29,920 --> 01:09:36,239
Speaker 3: Think that all contacts with potential extraterrestrial life forms is

1059
01:09:36,279 --> 01:09:40,159
an extremely positive thing that they're they're coming to Earth

1060
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:46,920
in these flying sources and they're going to enlighten us

1061
01:09:47,039 --> 01:09:53,840
and upgraders and improve our understanding of the universe and

1062
01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:56,920
so forth, and it's all everything is positive.

1063
01:09:56,960 --> 01:10:00,399
Speaker 2: There's no hints of anything.

1064
01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:07,279
Speaker 3: Threatening or negative about the subjects, and that they tend

1065
01:10:07,359 --> 01:10:11,039
to be very new age in outlook anyway. And so

1066
01:10:11,159 --> 01:10:14,640
these people, he said that you know, the positives. The

1067
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:21,520
third category he called the true believers. And in the

1068
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:25,079
category of the true believers he put people like Philip

1069
01:10:25,199 --> 01:10:27,840
class Do you know who he was?

1070
01:10:28,199 --> 01:10:32,079
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah he was. For those that don't know who

1071
01:10:32,079 --> 01:10:35,199
he is, please please tell us who filled class Wise.

1072
01:10:36,399 --> 01:10:43,239
Speaker 3: He was an aviation correspondence, and he was single and

1073
01:10:43,680 --> 01:10:50,680
fanatically against the idea of the UAP issue having any

1074
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:55,159
truth to it, and he would jump on any case

1075
01:10:55,359 --> 01:10:59,000
like the Travis Walton case in nineteen seventy five. Class

1076
01:10:59,039 --> 01:11:02,640
was stayed right down there the first day when Whalton

1077
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:06,319
was missing for five days and turned up dehydrated. And

1078
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:09,399
you know that there's the other six guys in the

1079
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:14,359
truck during the Travis Walton case all passed light detect

1080
01:11:14,439 --> 01:11:18,399
They all saw the abduction, They all saw the UFO

1081
01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:21,479
in the clearing of having over the clearing, and they

1082
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:23,960
all saw Travis get zapped by this beam in face

1083
01:11:24,039 --> 01:11:27,359
of the ground. And they all passed light detector tests

1084
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:34,079
are testing to their their integrity. But Class was straight

1085
01:11:34,159 --> 01:11:36,760
down there to the debunk it and invented all sorts

1086
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:39,439
of stuff about Travis which were, you know, a pack

1087
01:11:39,479 --> 01:11:42,199
of lies, really, but that anything that that you can

1088
01:11:42,319 --> 01:11:45,720
place in the public domain to demonstrate that this this

1089
01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:48,399
was a load of rubbish. You know that the UFO

1090
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:50,800
subject was a load of rubbish. Is is a load

1091
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:55,560
of kooks? Serious people didn't didn't need to consider it

1092
01:11:56,000 --> 01:12:00,680
at all, and it was all nonsense and it and

1093
01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:05,880
Bud said, the people like Class, the true believers, believe

1094
01:12:06,039 --> 01:12:12,000
that the UFO subject is not real in exactly the

1095
01:12:12,039 --> 01:12:16,159
same way that the Pope believes in the virgin birth.

1096
01:12:16,920 --> 01:12:20,640
M That's how we characterize them as the true believers.

1097
01:12:21,159 --> 01:12:26,439
They are completely driven by ideology, and there's nothing about

1098
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:31,560
them which will be tempted to examine the evidence dispassionately. Okay,

1099
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:39,600
And the fourth category he's called what was he the

1100
01:12:39,760 --> 01:12:44,079
incurious curious? Yes, there are a very large group of

1101
01:12:44,119 --> 01:12:49,239
people in the population who have no curiosity about the

1102
01:12:49,239 --> 01:12:51,680
subjects at all, don't feel strongly about it one way

1103
01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:54,880
or the other. And Okay, there's so there's aliens or

1104
01:12:54,880 --> 01:12:58,760
there isn't aliens. Yeah, you know, so UFOs are real

1105
01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:01,760
or they're not real. You know, cares you know, what

1106
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:04,239
are the baseball scores interested in that?

1107
01:13:04,359 --> 01:13:06,960
Speaker 1: Exactly? Yeah? I know plenty of people like.

1108
01:13:06,920 --> 01:13:14,239
Speaker 3: These, but categorized them as the in curious. My father

1109
01:13:14,359 --> 01:13:15,600
was one of the incurious.

1110
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:18,039
Speaker 1: I was going to ask about that. Yeah, yeah, tell

1111
01:13:18,119 --> 01:13:19,680
us about what your father saw.

1112
01:13:22,600 --> 01:13:24,119
Speaker 3: My father was one of the in curious. He was

1113
01:13:24,159 --> 01:13:29,000
an academic, affluent speaker and writer of the French language.

1114
01:13:29,000 --> 01:13:31,039
He was he ended up as professor of French at

1115
01:13:31,039 --> 01:13:35,199
Liverpool University, so he was he was very very devoces

1116
01:13:35,199 --> 01:13:38,600
to literature and the arts and so forth. And he's

1117
01:13:38,680 --> 01:13:42,560
a very intelligent guy. And he had a master's degree

1118
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:47,479
in French and he used to collect French books and

1119
01:13:48,199 --> 01:13:51,920
who had a very large collection of an antiquarian French

1120
01:13:51,960 --> 01:13:58,600
books and eventually left academia and went to a small

1121
01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:02,000
market town and in the bookshop where he has spent

1122
01:14:02,039 --> 01:14:04,680
the happy, happiest twenty years of his life, you know,

1123
01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:09,520
at the end of his life selling books. But one

1124
01:14:09,960 --> 01:14:14,600
day in nineteen sixty eight, he got up very early

1125
01:14:16,199 --> 01:14:18,199
to drive to London. He was going on a book

1126
01:14:18,239 --> 01:14:20,319
buying trip. I think he was London because he's going

1127
01:14:20,359 --> 01:14:25,399
on a book buying trip. And he opened the curtains

1128
01:14:25,520 --> 01:14:31,960
in our small, semi desatch house downstairs and he saw

1129
01:14:32,399 --> 01:14:39,720
a huge white, glowing disk hovering over the neighborhood. And

1130
01:14:40,039 --> 01:14:43,319
instead of waking us up and saying, look at that

1131
01:14:43,359 --> 01:14:46,840
thing out out of the window, isn't it amazing, he

1132
01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:51,960
just brushed it off and got on with his day,

1133
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:54,000
you know, and got on with getting ready for putting

1134
01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:56,159
a suitcase in the car and driving off. And he

1135
01:14:56,199 --> 01:14:59,479
didn't even mention this sighting to us until he returned

1136
01:14:59,479 --> 01:15:02,880
about three two or three days later with a carful

1137
01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:07,119
of books, you know, And to him it was just, yeah,

1138
01:15:07,199 --> 01:15:11,039
something you know, mildly unusual. But he didn't want to

1139
01:15:11,079 --> 01:15:13,159
spend time on it thinking about it. You know, it

1140
01:15:13,279 --> 01:15:15,600
wasn't wasn't part of his life, wasn't part of his world.

1141
01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:18,960
So he was one of the in curious and you know,

1142
01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:24,199
he had no curiosity about the subjects at all. And

1143
01:15:24,439 --> 01:15:26,920
ye know, I think he's not the only person in

1144
01:15:26,920 --> 01:15:29,039
the world like that. As you said, you know.

1145
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:32,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, most of the people, Oh yeah, I mean most

1146
01:15:32,439 --> 01:15:34,479
of the most of the people I know that's that's

1147
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:37,920
that are not obviously not in this field. It's yeah,

1148
01:15:38,199 --> 01:15:41,520
they care about putting food on the table and going

1149
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:45,199
to see their kids football or what. Yeah. No, you

1150
01:15:45,239 --> 01:15:49,000
can't blame him at all. I I completely completely agree. Uh. Now,

1151
01:15:49,159 --> 01:15:53,359
you know, we've we've spoken about these two researchers and

1152
01:15:53,359 --> 01:15:58,119
and of course your book. Whitley Strieber, who is just

1153
01:15:58,159 --> 01:16:00,720
a lovely human being. I've I've had lunch with him,

1154
01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:06,920
and he's I think in many ways, his book Communion

1155
01:16:07,039 --> 01:16:11,199
completely changed the landscape. And you know, so this book

1156
01:16:11,239 --> 01:16:13,600
comes out in nineteen eighty seven, and I understand that

1157
01:16:13,640 --> 01:16:17,239
you saw it in a bookshop and felt and this

1158
01:16:17,439 --> 01:16:20,720
was your word, a chill. So twenty years later you

1159
01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:23,640
and Streeberg became friends as well. Tell us about your

1160
01:16:23,680 --> 01:16:27,159
relationship with Whitney Whitley, excuse me, he's going to kill me.

1161
01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:30,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1162
01:16:30,239 --> 01:16:35,640
Speaker 3: I was interviewed by Whitley after publishing Out of Time

1163
01:16:36,239 --> 01:16:38,960
in twenty twenty two, and he interviewed me a second

1164
01:16:39,039 --> 01:16:45,159
time the same year, sorry, the following year twenty three

1165
01:16:46,119 --> 01:16:50,479
for Dreamlands, which is you know, his show is.

1166
01:16:53,079 --> 01:16:55,640
Speaker 2: His Internet channel.

1167
01:16:55,760 --> 01:17:00,359
Speaker 3: And he interviewed me the second time because my book

1168
01:17:00,439 --> 01:17:05,039
was pulled from the markets by Amazon. They closed down

1169
01:17:05,119 --> 01:17:07,960
my accounts, and this is a very long story which

1170
01:17:08,239 --> 01:17:10,760
we probably could spend an hour on that, So I

1171
01:17:10,800 --> 01:17:13,039
won't just briefly.

1172
01:17:13,119 --> 01:17:16,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, briefly talk about because I think that that yeah,

1173
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:19,720
I think that's and sorry to interrupt. The delay here

1174
01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:23,640
is pretty significant, but I think that this is a

1175
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:28,920
really significant part of your story and what I viewed

1176
01:17:28,960 --> 01:17:33,840
to be efforts to shut this conversation down. So your

1177
01:17:33,880 --> 01:17:40,000
book is doing well, it's on Amazon, and how long

1178
01:17:40,039 --> 01:17:41,039
had it been on Amazon?

1179
01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:48,560
Speaker 3: It was published in September twenty two, and this was

1180
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:52,720
pulled from the markets by Amazon on the thirty first

1181
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:55,199
of March twenty three, and so it was on the

1182
01:17:55,199 --> 01:17:56,880
markets about well.

1183
01:17:57,079 --> 01:18:03,520
Speaker 2: The story I was told was that I my name.

1184
01:18:03,439 --> 01:18:10,039
Speaker 3: Was associated with a different Amazon account and this other

1185
01:18:10,119 --> 01:18:16,279
Amazon accounts had been guilty of content violations and had

1186
01:18:16,319 --> 01:18:20,960
been banned because my name was associated with that. They

1187
01:18:20,960 --> 01:18:28,399
were they were they were preventing my access to my accounts.

1188
01:18:28,479 --> 01:18:31,680
I would be paid no royalties for the last two

1189
01:18:31,720 --> 01:18:36,319
months of the contracts, and they said, in any case,

1190
01:18:36,840 --> 01:18:42,520
there is you signed the publication contract with Kindled Direct

1191
01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:47,439
Publishing because I'd published with Kindle Direct Publishing in September

1192
01:18:47,479 --> 01:18:53,359
twenty two because of my the recommendation of my.

1193
01:18:55,279 --> 01:18:56,520
Speaker 2: Editor who.

1194
01:18:57,960 --> 01:19:00,560
Speaker 3: Lives in London, Ontario, who had dealt with Kindle Direct

1195
01:19:00,560 --> 01:19:05,000
Publishing before, knew the process and the type setting arrangements

1196
01:19:05,039 --> 01:19:07,119
and so forth, and the and the copy editing and

1197
01:19:07,359 --> 01:19:10,760
editing processes. So I took his advice because I didn't

1198
01:19:10,760 --> 01:19:13,920
know any any anything else to do. You know, was

1199
01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:17,359
brand news for publishing world. So I don't blame this

1200
01:19:17,479 --> 01:19:20,279
editor at all for that. He was actually in good

1201
01:19:20,359 --> 01:19:22,800
faith in the news as shocked and stunned as I

1202
01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:27,239
was when the book was pulled from the market, and

1203
01:19:27,680 --> 01:19:30,119
you know, it's all sorts of fall. Letter was came

1204
01:19:30,279 --> 01:19:37,000
out of out of his email traffic about that. But

1205
01:19:37,600 --> 01:19:40,760
book was full pull for the market. And I was

1206
01:19:40,800 --> 01:19:44,239
discussing this with Whickley, and he wanted me back on

1207
01:19:44,279 --> 01:19:46,560
the show, and he said to me, not on the

1208
01:19:46,760 --> 01:19:49,520
with certain things he won't say on the show. But

1209
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:55,479
between the two of us, the book Out of Time

1210
01:19:55,800 --> 01:20:05,119
had a fairly heavy weight of appendices of physical evidence,

1211
01:20:05,319 --> 01:20:11,840
hard forensic evidence scientifically validated. There's, as an example, there's

1212
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:14,760
the analysis of my scoop mark scar from that man

1213
01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:19,720
Manhattan clinic in two thousand and eight. There's a catalogue

1214
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:23,439
of bodily scarring from my own archive, which you know

1215
01:20:23,680 --> 01:20:31,159
includes scoop marked scars, burns around the legs, multiple incisions

1216
01:20:31,239 --> 01:20:37,399
in geometric patterns on bodies and so forth. And we'd

1217
01:20:38,039 --> 01:20:43,199
also recovered two hairs from an event in twenty fifteen

1218
01:20:44,119 --> 01:20:48,840
that we needed to want it to be analyzed by

1219
01:20:49,199 --> 01:20:52,119
people who could, you know, do a proper analysis and

1220
01:20:52,159 --> 01:20:56,880
microscopic microscopt scopy and analysis. And we found a company

1221
01:20:56,920 --> 01:20:59,600
called it's very long through a very long process called

1222
01:20:59,680 --> 01:21:04,239
micro Tress LLC in Illinois, and they analyianus these hairs

1223
01:21:04,239 --> 01:21:06,880
for us, and they turned out to be hairs from

1224
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:15,920
a wig. And interestingly, at the same time that they

1225
01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:21,680
had all a very similar time, not not precisely coincidental insime,

1226
01:21:21,720 --> 01:21:24,560
but during within a few weeks, they'd had another hair

1227
01:21:25,880 --> 01:21:29,199
from a an adverteer in California who I didn't know

1228
01:21:29,279 --> 01:21:33,760
and then never heard of, and she she became known

1229
01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:36,359
to me as Betsy, but I'd never met her, and

1230
01:21:36,439 --> 01:21:39,760
I don't know who she is, but she'd submissed a long,

1231
01:21:40,039 --> 01:21:44,239
a long brown hair, and the two hairs we had found,

1232
01:21:45,039 --> 01:21:48,840
my wife had found one inside the house and a

1233
01:21:48,960 --> 01:21:52,000
second one identical just outside the house on the patio

1234
01:21:52,439 --> 01:21:57,119
between with locked glass doors between the two hairs, and

1235
01:21:57,239 --> 01:22:01,359
we don't they don't match hair as on our heads.

1236
01:22:01,399 --> 01:22:04,680
We've not had any visitors for about three weeks beforehand.

1237
01:22:05,640 --> 01:22:08,720
We'd had a thorough house team the day before, so

1238
01:22:09,000 --> 01:22:14,359
they couldn't just appeared overnight, but they did follow an

1239
01:22:14,399 --> 01:22:20,319
events that I recalled and when some being two beings

1240
01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:25,239
entered the living space through the glass doors, like through

1241
01:22:25,279 --> 01:22:28,960
the glass doors. They didn't open them, they came through them.

1242
01:22:29,680 --> 01:22:37,039
And in the morning I was very, very irritated and.

1243
01:22:38,920 --> 01:22:39,760
Speaker 2: Difficult to be.

1244
01:22:39,800 --> 01:22:43,039
Speaker 3: With, and you know, my wife sent me out for

1245
01:22:43,039 --> 01:22:43,760
a cycle ride.

1246
01:22:44,640 --> 01:22:46,720
Speaker 2: You know, I just have a racing bike.

1247
01:22:46,800 --> 01:22:50,319
Speaker 3: Used to do a lot of fast cycling to just

1248
01:22:50,479 --> 01:22:52,920
try and burn off some energy and you know, get

1249
01:22:52,960 --> 01:22:57,119
over it. But I drew an image of one of

1250
01:22:57,119 --> 01:23:00,159
these beings that I remembered from the night before, and

1251
01:23:00,479 --> 01:23:04,560
the hairs do seem to match what I remember were

1252
01:23:05,039 --> 01:23:08,640
on the head. It turns out that these two hairs

1253
01:23:09,159 --> 01:23:12,720
that we found in our on our property, and the

1254
01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:16,359
one hair from California, which was like you know how

1255
01:23:16,399 --> 01:23:19,359
many times zones are you away from as eight eight

1256
01:23:19,399 --> 01:23:24,720
thousand miles from us, from Los Angeles, London thousand miles,

1257
01:23:25,079 --> 01:23:26,880
so she was eight thousand miles away from me, and

1258
01:23:26,960 --> 01:23:29,119
she she had a different hair from a different experience

1259
01:23:29,119 --> 01:23:32,680
in a different occasion. And there were all there were

1260
01:23:32,720 --> 01:23:36,039
all of them from weeks now that the the hair

1261
01:23:36,039 --> 01:23:40,960
from California was from a costume wig and it dyed

1262
01:23:41,000 --> 01:23:44,359
costume wig which was polypropolene. It wasn't a human hair,

1263
01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:48,600
but the two hairs from our house were from a

1264
01:23:48,800 --> 01:23:54,199
human human hair wig, but it was at a stage

1265
01:23:54,239 --> 01:23:58,199
in the process of a wig manufacture and when it's

1266
01:23:58,199 --> 01:24:01,199
before it's dyed, where they each all the original color

1267
01:24:01,359 --> 01:24:07,199
out of the hair the wig. And this individual was

1268
01:24:07,239 --> 01:24:10,920
wearing this wig that came into our living space was

1269
01:24:10,920 --> 01:24:14,920
wearing this wig because I remember what she looked like.

1270
01:24:15,520 --> 01:24:17,960
She looked exactly like her hair was a bit tangled

1271
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:21,960
in a bit kent and it was gray. It's exactly

1272
01:24:22,039 --> 01:24:26,680
what the hairs would like and it does match the

1273
01:24:26,800 --> 01:24:32,840
micro microchaces diagnosis of wig hair. So then there's there's

1274
01:24:33,920 --> 01:24:36,560
the other thing that was in the book was analysis

1275
01:24:36,800 --> 01:24:42,760
of an implant recovered from a patient in two thousand

1276
01:24:42,800 --> 01:24:47,199
and nine by doctor Roger Lear. It was a podiatric

1277
01:24:47,319 --> 01:24:51,479
surgeon from southern southern California, and it was analyzed. This

1278
01:24:51,720 --> 01:24:56,960
implant was analyzed by Neutron Star Nanotechnology in Southern California,

1279
01:24:57,680 --> 01:25:03,600
and the the chief executive, Steve Colburn rose A, reported

1280
01:25:03,680 --> 01:25:06,800
about it and posted it on the internet, but nobody

1281
01:25:06,880 --> 01:25:09,439
really saw it because you know, it was hidden away somewhere.

1282
01:25:09,800 --> 01:25:14,720
So I published that out of time as well. So

1283
01:25:14,880 --> 01:25:18,560
I had all this forensic evidence and a lot of illustrations,

1284
01:25:18,680 --> 01:25:25,720
graphic illustrations and my electron microscopy data and microscopy images

1285
01:25:25,760 --> 01:25:29,039
of this implant and microscopy images of the hair and

1286
01:25:29,800 --> 01:25:34,359
a really serious forensic analysis of the hair. So all

1287
01:25:34,399 --> 01:25:37,760
this is out of time, and it's a very solid

1288
01:25:37,960 --> 01:25:44,199
body of evidence which supports the physical reality of the

1289
01:25:44,199 --> 01:25:50,079
abduction subject without question. And I think that that's why

1290
01:25:50,119 --> 01:25:53,960
the book was pulled. And I don't think that Jeff

1291
01:25:54,000 --> 01:25:56,479
besils I had anything to do with it directly, but

1292
01:25:56,640 --> 01:25:59,479
I think, you know, he had people somebody working in

1293
01:25:59,479 --> 01:26:05,039
his organized station or coverdly having influence over people in

1294
01:26:05,079 --> 01:26:07,520
the organizations who managed to get the book taken off

1295
01:26:07,520 --> 01:26:10,600
the market. And you know, Whitley and I talked about

1296
01:26:10,600 --> 01:26:13,960
this and he said this is very likely. And he

1297
01:26:14,039 --> 01:26:16,800
has other ideas about about this, which I won't just

1298
01:26:17,119 --> 01:26:20,800
discuss in this interview. You can discuss it with him

1299
01:26:20,920 --> 01:26:23,319
if he'll discuss that with you, But I think he

1300
01:26:23,359 --> 01:26:26,039
wouldn't want me to reveal what he really thinks. But

1301
01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:30,479
we came to know each other really well when in

1302
01:26:30,520 --> 01:26:32,199
one of his visits to England, because he comes to

1303
01:26:32,239 --> 01:26:35,159
England quite a lot and he wants a cottage and

1304
01:26:36,279 --> 01:26:40,039
in Sussex so he can write and not be disturbed by.

1305
01:26:39,960 --> 01:26:40,960
Speaker 2: The phone and the internet.

1306
01:26:41,800 --> 01:26:42,039
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1307
01:26:42,119 --> 01:26:45,479
Speaker 3: Sure, so he comes up here quite often. So we

1308
01:26:45,520 --> 01:26:47,319
got to know each other when he was in England

1309
01:26:47,319 --> 01:26:50,239
on that time, and we've got to know each other

1310
01:26:50,279 --> 01:26:52,359
a very well since. And he stayed up up here,

1311
01:26:52,439 --> 01:26:54,479
was in it with us in our house and Lincature

1312
01:26:54,520 --> 01:26:58,800
on two separate occasions. And he accompanied me to a

1313
01:26:58,840 --> 01:27:01,600
conference at the Whole Universe in twenty twenty four where

1314
01:27:01,640 --> 01:27:05,840
I got him on the speaker's list and we joined

1315
01:27:05,880 --> 01:27:08,640
me and Peter Robins and a few English guys who

1316
01:27:08,680 --> 01:27:10,279
were also on the speaker's list.

1317
01:27:10,640 --> 01:27:11,920
Speaker 2: So he came over for.

1318
01:27:11,920 --> 01:27:13,680
Speaker 3: That and he stayed with us for three or four

1319
01:27:13,720 --> 01:27:18,640
days on that occasion, and then he left this and

1320
01:27:18,680 --> 01:27:20,119
I took him to the station and he got the

1321
01:27:20,159 --> 01:27:23,119
trained man to work with Graham Hancock, who lives in Bath.

1322
01:27:23,239 --> 01:27:26,520
If you know Graham Hancock is he's a friend of Witness.

1323
01:27:28,560 --> 01:27:28,960
Speaker 2: So he.

1324
01:27:30,680 --> 01:27:33,359
Speaker 3: Was on a tour around the UK at that time

1325
01:27:34,079 --> 01:27:35,560
to visit all these interesting people.

1326
01:27:37,079 --> 01:27:41,159
Speaker 1: And I understand and go ahead, yeah.

1327
01:27:40,840 --> 01:27:44,279
Speaker 3: Well I'd known about Woodley since nineteen eighty seven. Were

1328
01:27:44,279 --> 01:27:49,000
because Communion was so well promoted by his publisher that

1329
01:27:49,039 --> 01:27:52,359
he was in all bookshops in England, every high street bookshop.

1330
01:27:52,800 --> 01:27:55,760
I had a full window display with twenty or thirty

1331
01:27:55,800 --> 01:27:59,079
copies of Communion part on top of each other. And

1332
01:27:59,520 --> 01:28:03,039
he was on Whitley was shunted around all the big

1333
01:28:03,079 --> 01:28:05,960
talk shows. You know that this was the day of

1334
01:28:06,680 --> 01:28:10,840
network television was king of media, not like it is now.

1335
01:28:12,560 --> 01:28:16,800
There's no Internet in nineteen eighty seven, really to speak

1336
01:28:16,840 --> 01:28:21,079
of it. It appeared in the nineteen nineties, but there

1337
01:28:21,159 --> 01:28:25,279
was you know, everybody was his big talk show host.

1338
01:28:25,399 --> 01:28:30,000
We have, you know, equivalents of Colburn and Jimmy Kimmel

1339
01:28:30,039 --> 01:28:31,840
and so forth in the UK and in Ireland, and

1340
01:28:32,079 --> 01:28:34,199
not the same people obviously, but you know, the same

1341
01:28:34,239 --> 01:28:36,920
type of people who do the same kind of shows.

1342
01:28:37,119 --> 01:28:40,560
So he was Onley was on all those shows, on

1343
01:28:40,600 --> 01:28:45,079
all those shows, and he did a tour world media

1344
01:28:46,399 --> 01:28:50,520
splurge when Communion was released, so everybody read it. Everybody

1345
01:28:50,520 --> 01:28:54,119
bought it and read it, and everybody I knew viewed

1346
01:28:54,119 --> 01:28:58,680
it as an extraordinary thing. And I became persuaded in

1347
01:28:58,760 --> 01:29:02,960
nineteen eighty seven that in abduction existed for the first

1348
01:29:03,000 --> 01:29:09,840
time was a thing. And after reading Communion, and I

1349
01:29:09,880 --> 01:29:15,159
was I couldn't begin to explain to you how grateful

1350
01:29:15,319 --> 01:29:19,119
I was that it had nothing to do with me.

1351
01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:27,119
Speaker 1: And I understand too. So your book disappears off of Amazon,

1352
01:29:27,479 --> 01:29:32,039
and I understand that you that emails between you and

1353
01:29:32,079 --> 01:29:38,000
Whitley were also we had were disappearing for some weird reason, right.

1354
01:29:39,239 --> 01:29:40,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a big subject.

1355
01:29:41,479 --> 01:29:44,000
Speaker 3: If you talked to Robert Hastings about his experiences with

1356
01:29:44,279 --> 01:29:48,239
this harassment, yeah, oh yeah, you know, so you know

1357
01:29:48,239 --> 01:29:52,520
about Robert. Once I started communicating with Robert, I bought

1358
01:29:52,520 --> 01:29:55,760
his book UFOs and Nukes in two thousand and eight,

1359
01:29:55,800 --> 01:29:59,680
and I started striking up a conversation with him online

1360
01:29:59,760 --> 01:30:04,319
and and we went. We went over to the States

1361
01:30:04,560 --> 01:30:07,960
for a medical conference in twenty ten, and one of

1362
01:30:08,000 --> 01:30:11,880
the things we did was was fly down to Albuquerque,

1363
01:30:12,319 --> 01:30:14,600
rent a car and drive out to Robert's place in

1364
01:30:14,640 --> 01:30:17,880
Towse and spend a week with him. And we've been

1365
01:30:17,920 --> 01:30:22,920
friends since then. But since we've become close, our emails

1366
01:30:23,039 --> 01:30:26,319
are always interfered with. They're always putting the junk mile,

1367
01:30:26,920 --> 01:30:30,920
or they disappear altogether, or sometimes they sometimes that you

1368
01:30:31,000 --> 01:30:33,640
see in the inbox one message on red and you

1369
01:30:33,760 --> 01:30:35,880
look scroll down your messages for the past a few

1370
01:30:35,880 --> 01:30:38,199
weeks and that there's no message on red, and then

1371
01:30:38,239 --> 01:30:43,640
you find it was it's in two years ago. It's

1372
01:30:43,840 --> 01:30:47,239
dumped somewhere on red in the in the folder from

1373
01:30:47,279 --> 01:30:49,680
two years ago. And I don't know how they do that,

1374
01:30:49,720 --> 01:30:56,199
but it's done. And there's other people when I communicate

1375
01:30:56,479 --> 01:30:59,479
try to communicate with this happens to. One is my

1376
01:30:59,560 --> 01:31:04,000
co author, Andreas Look of the second book that I

1377
01:31:04,000 --> 01:31:09,119
published this year and was published on April, the second

1378
01:31:10,239 --> 01:31:15,279
Investigating the Impossible, and Andreas is a PhD professor of

1379
01:31:16,560 --> 01:31:21,119
Malecula Biology, and genetics who's co written the book with me,

1380
01:31:21,239 --> 01:31:26,000
and whenever he and I started to communicate, the messages

1381
01:31:26,000 --> 01:31:32,239
were always interfered with. I was invited to Southampton University,

1382
01:31:32,680 --> 01:31:35,640
my old alma mater, alm a Matter, Who's that what

1383
01:31:35,680 --> 01:31:41,119
you call it in two thousand and twenty four to

1384
01:31:41,199 --> 01:31:44,960
take part in the debate against doctor Christopher French, who's

1385
01:31:45,279 --> 01:31:50,119
professor of anomalistic psychology at Goldsmith University in London, and

1386
01:31:50,479 --> 01:31:53,479
French and I faced off against each other in front

1387
01:31:53,479 --> 01:31:59,399
of a crowded lecture theater full of students and faculty members.

1388
01:31:59,680 --> 01:32:02,800
Were people standing at the back, you know, it's so full.

1389
01:32:03,439 --> 01:32:09,600
And I won the debates as as decided by a

1390
01:32:09,680 --> 01:32:13,720
vote from the audience, and that the abduction phenomenon is

1391
01:32:13,720 --> 01:32:18,239
a real thing and it's not explainable by an omalistic psychology,

1392
01:32:18,239 --> 01:32:21,119
which doctor French claimed it would be, you know, and

1393
01:32:21,720 --> 01:32:27,119
they didn't agree with him by majority. But the professor

1394
01:32:27,239 --> 01:32:31,680
of psychology who organized this event between French and myself

1395
01:32:32,720 --> 01:32:37,439
was doctor Aidan Gregg, who's a psychologist in the departments

1396
01:32:37,479 --> 01:32:40,920
of Southampton and he and I have you know, become

1397
01:32:41,039 --> 01:32:44,079
quite good friends actually, and he lives on the Isle

1398
01:32:44,079 --> 01:32:46,760
of White which is close to Southampton, and every time,

1399
01:32:47,239 --> 01:32:51,560
every time Aidan and I communicate, the messages interfered with

1400
01:32:51,680 --> 01:32:53,479
a lot of the messages got missing, he said. The

1401
01:32:53,479 --> 01:32:56,720
first time I ever wrote to him at the time

1402
01:32:56,760 --> 01:33:00,640
of the debate, he found my message to him in

1403
01:33:00,640 --> 01:33:03,359
his junk mail. Yeah, and he's from that.

1404
01:33:03,800 --> 01:33:07,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. I remember when I first started talking to

1405
01:33:07,079 --> 01:33:11,880
Robert Hastings on the phone on my cell phone about

1406
01:33:11,920 --> 01:33:17,000
a day later after our first conversation. And I love Robert.

1407
01:33:17,079 --> 01:33:20,920
I was actually out visiting him very recently in you

1408
01:33:20,920 --> 01:33:25,680
know where he lives. But yeah, yeah, exactly. But the

1409
01:33:26,600 --> 01:33:29,359
day after he and I spoke for the first time.

1410
01:33:29,680 --> 01:33:33,119
For about a two week period, I had clicking on

1411
01:33:33,199 --> 01:33:36,680
my phone that would be like I would be talking

1412
01:33:36,720 --> 01:33:40,359
and then start hearing an echo of me all kinds

1413
01:33:40,359 --> 01:33:43,560
of stuff. And actually, speaking of interfering, you may have

1414
01:33:43,720 --> 01:33:48,199
seen me kind of like messing around with my wireless

1415
01:33:48,199 --> 01:33:52,159
belt pack and it just stopped. But literally at two

1416
01:33:52,239 --> 01:33:55,359
forty five pm Pacific. You know, I've got an ear

1417
01:33:55,439 --> 01:33:58,560
piece that I hear you in this thing called an IFB,

1418
01:33:59,119 --> 01:34:03,079
and your voice was coming in distorted, uh the whole time,

1419
01:34:03,520 --> 01:34:07,479
and it just, uh what twelve minutes into it. It

1420
01:34:07,640 --> 01:34:11,840
just poop stopped. And the last time that happened was

1421
01:34:12,199 --> 01:34:16,479
uh when, oh, it was probably about a probably about

1422
01:34:16,479 --> 01:34:19,760
a month ago. I'm I'm blanking on his name, the

1423
01:34:20,279 --> 01:34:21,720
director that did the phenomenon.

1424
01:34:22,159 --> 01:34:29,000
Speaker 3: Uh uh uh, yeah, there's I could see it, see

1425
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:29,359
its face.

1426
01:34:30,640 --> 01:34:35,079
Speaker 1: I can't believe yeah anyway, but but yeah, I mean

1427
01:34:35,119 --> 01:34:39,520
there there really really is some strange stuff. And yeah, James,

1428
01:34:39,880 --> 01:34:42,439
so exact same thing happened to him and like turned

1429
01:34:42,439 --> 01:34:44,800
on like a switch the whole day when I was

1430
01:34:44,880 --> 01:34:49,000
rehearsing and whatnot. No no issues, but yeah, the same

1431
01:34:49,079 --> 01:34:52,960
exact thing. Your your book out of time. Uh. Where

1432
01:34:52,960 --> 01:34:53,920
can folks find that?

1433
01:34:55,760 --> 01:34:59,680
Speaker 3: Well, it's available from all recental outlets. You find out

1434
01:34:59,680 --> 01:35:02,439
on Amazon dot com, or you'll find it in Barns

1435
01:35:02,479 --> 01:35:06,000
and Noble and other high street bookstores all over the place.

1436
01:35:06,279 --> 01:35:08,720
Speaker 2: If it's not on the shelf, and the shelf, they can.

1437
01:35:10,279 --> 01:35:13,239
Speaker 3: Get a copy from the wholesaler because it's sold everywhere,

1438
01:35:13,520 --> 01:35:18,119
and it's doing really well in North America and it's

1439
01:35:18,159 --> 01:35:24,199
always it's been selling since this edition was published in

1440
01:35:24,199 --> 01:35:28,239
twenty twenty three, and it's sold continuously since August twenty three.

1441
01:35:28,359 --> 01:35:31,960
So this isn't coming up three years, so it's probably

1442
01:35:32,000 --> 01:35:35,199
still in the shops and it's certainly available on Amazon

1443
01:35:35,600 --> 01:35:41,159
for immediate It's in three formats, a hardback with color illustrations,

1444
01:35:42,119 --> 01:35:48,560
a paperback with grayscale illustrations, and an ebook, and all

1445
01:35:48,600 --> 01:35:52,239
three are available obviously, the ebooks available for immediate download,

1446
01:35:52,319 --> 01:35:54,399
because you know there's no printing involved.

1447
01:35:54,520 --> 01:35:57,439
Speaker 1: We're going to stop right here for tonight, but we

1448
01:35:57,479 --> 01:36:01,279
are not done. This was part one. In part two,

1449
01:36:01,720 --> 01:36:05,640
Steve takes us into the physical evidence, the implants, the

1450
01:36:05,840 --> 01:36:09,560
lab analysis, and the beings. He says, now walk among

1451
01:36:09,640 --> 01:36:14,039
us looking exactly. Guests, get this exactly like.

1452
01:36:14,039 --> 01:36:14,439
Speaker 2: You and me.

1453
01:36:14,880 --> 01:36:17,399
Speaker 1: You're not gonna want to miss it. And here's something

1454
01:36:17,439 --> 01:36:20,479
to sit with until then. Steve's book Out of Time

1455
01:36:20,840 --> 01:36:24,399
documents that forensic evidence. And in March of twenty twenty three,

1456
01:36:25,079 --> 01:36:29,640
guess what, it was pulled off of Amazon overnight. Stephen

1457
01:36:29,680 --> 01:36:33,079
Whitley Strieber both believe it was pulled because of what's

1458
01:36:33,079 --> 01:36:36,520
in those appendices. So ask yourself why a book like

1459
01:36:36,600 --> 01:36:39,680
that gets erased, But you can actually find it back

1460
01:36:39,720 --> 01:36:44,039
on Amazon. Now. We'll tell you all about that exactly

1461
01:36:44,119 --> 01:36:47,560
when we get back to part two next week. And

1462
01:36:47,600 --> 01:36:50,399
if you're new here, Subscribe and hit that bell so

1463
01:36:50,720 --> 01:36:53,319
when Part two lands in front of you, the minute

1464
01:36:53,359 --> 01:36:56,359
it drops, you'll know I'm Matt Ford. We'll see you

1465
01:36:56,439 --> 01:36:57,000
in Part two.