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Speaker 1: Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster

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movies and psychoanalyze them. My name is Brittany Brownfield and

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I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by.

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Speaker 2: Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah Espinoza, marriage and family therapists.

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Speaker 1: We're all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists,

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who practice out of Chicago. Even though we are licensed

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mental health professionals, this podcast is purely for entertainment purposes

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and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture and

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all forms.

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Speaker 3: Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists,

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we aren't your therapist.

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Speaker 2: If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find

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a local mental health provider.

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Speaker 1: Happy Valentine's Day, everybody. So we are doing your guys'

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pick for twenty twenty five, which is my big fat

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Greek wedding. This movie One in a Landslide. I was

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very surprised. I was very surprised as well. And I

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don't think for nassarily for the romance. I think people

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wanted to hear, want us to talk about the family

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and guess what, everybody, You're gonna get what you paid

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for because we were gonna talk about this family, yes

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we are. So the topic for episodes today is enmeshment,

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how it shows up in this family, kind of like

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the cultural reasons for why some families can be more

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in mesh than others, the consequences of enmeshment, which I

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think is what we see a lot in this movie,

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especially with Tula and her her individualism and confidence. And

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they're also obviously going to talk about Ian and Tula's

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relationship and how the family dynamic trickles down obviously and

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impacts the relationship. And as always treatment and final thoughts.

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So long story shorts. This movie is about a thirty

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year old named Tula who feels very I would call

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her a late bloomer, yes, and she doesn't really know

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who she is. She's not very confident. She gets antagonized

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a lot, in my opinion by a very big, close

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Greek family yep. And then she meets say ugh non

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Greek Amien and they fall in love and they get

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married baby, And so that's this movie, all right, goodbye,

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everybody have the firus episodes my fund So in Meshman,

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I'm gonna throw it to you, Hannix. I know you

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have a definition for enmeshment on deck. And also, this

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is a word that's being used a lot in our culture,

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so I wanted to make sure that we had a

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firm understanding of what we mean as therapist when we

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say in meshment.

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Speaker 2: So the definition that I have is two or more people,

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typically family members are involved in each other's activities and

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personal relationships to an excessive degree.

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Speaker 3: Check check, check it, e check. In this movie, I

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think all those are quite clearly exceeded.

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Speaker 4: Well right away.

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Speaker 1: You are established in the movie that this family really

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doesn't do anything without each other. They all work at

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each other's businesses, They are constantly spending all their free

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time together. This is a family that doesn't really have

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a social life, it seems, outside of their relatives and

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or maybe other Greek people in their community.

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Speaker 3: Right, their family and their community, their church.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So why is it about this family specifically other

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than what I just mentioned that we would say like oof,

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this family is in meshed versusges, this is a close family,

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or this is a family that's just like very family oriented,

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Like why are we saying enmeshed and.

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Speaker 2: Meshment shows up in this family where you have everybody's

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in each other's business all the time or specifically times

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of what enmeshment looks like in families is where one

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person is not allowed to completely express who they are

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because they have to keep within the connection to the family,

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the connection to another person.

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Speaker 4: So in this.

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Speaker 2: Family, it's almost like everyone, every single person is en

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meshed with the next person, which is pretty which in

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some in some experiences, is pretty rare to have them

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be inside of each other in that kind of way.

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And we see with not only like what Brittany brought

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up in the beginning about how they all work together,

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about how they all spend all their time, they spend

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all their time together, and also they're all in each

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other's business, but they're in each other's business in a

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way that puts all of the focus on one person's

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specific part of their life. It seems like and romantic.

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The romantic part of Tula's life is definitely one of

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those areas where everyone gets involved in one way or another.

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Everybody has an opinion about it. Yes, everybody says the

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opinion out loud. Everyone feels like they have some kind

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of ownership over the relationship that Tula does not have

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or has had. Trouble finding, and the way that that

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impacts each other is that it stops someone from being

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able to develop because they have to be within these

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certain realms in order to keep the family happy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think something that you mentioned that to me

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is like the ding ding ding.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: For why this family is unhealthily involved with each other

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is what you said about like everyone's entitled to like

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an opinion or like ownership over what everyone else is doing.

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And that, to me is the difference between like a

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close family and a mesh family is that it's one

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thing if you share everything with people in your life,

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Like if you have a kind of relationship with your

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family where you can tell them everything that's going on,

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you talk to them every day, multiple times a day,

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and everybody knows what's going on with everybody else, that's

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one thing. If that works for you, all, that's fine.

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You know, Like we, or at least I don't want

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to be encouraging any like hyperindividualism, which I think is

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something that therapists are going to bad rap about right now.

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Is that therapy encourages like this like I don't know

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anybody anything kind of thing that's not true in a family.

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If you guys are all close, and that feels good

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to everybody. That's a fine what you were saying, Hannah, though,

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is the problem, which is when everyone feels like they

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are allowed to say whatever they want and that everyone's

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allowed to have an opinion about what everybody else is

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doing in a way that's not even like advice. It's

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controlling because when Tula gets told stuff or other people

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get told stuff in this movie about themselves, it's not

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like oof, like I don't know if you would really

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like that, you know, you did like art instead of

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this maybe should take our class. It's like, how could

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you do that to me?

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Speaker 4: The family?

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Speaker 1: Everything's taken very personally, very personally, and like it's also

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very like I'm allowed to tell you what to do

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versus you're grown up and I can still give you,

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like maybe my opinion out of what I want for you,

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versus like I'm still allowed even though you're an adult,

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to tell you what to do, and you should listen.

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If you don't listen, you're doing something to me or

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you're doing something to the family. Like That's what I

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think of with enmeshment, is like you guys are up

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each other's butts, like you're entangled like there is no me,

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there is no you, it's us.

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Speaker 3: I think that's the the key phrase right there, that one.

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There is no me without us, there is no me,

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it's us. As how do we advance our group, our people,

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our values, our family and you and your wants and

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your individuality are not even secondary to that, It's there

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is no secondary.

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Speaker 1: There is antagonistic towards us. If you have things individual wants.

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Speaker 3: Right, even must advance within the singular viewpoint that the

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family has always had, which usually comes down to a

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figurehead and what they are espousing. Everyone else's viewpoints are,

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and that everyone else must be adherent to that to

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be good enough to be accepted to make their own way,

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and their own way is whatever path everyone else is

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determined it to be no variation on that.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, like Tula's only options are to get married

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to work at the restaurant. Everyone's options are like, well,

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you're either going to work at this family thing or

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this family thing, and any divergence from these spoken unspoken

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rules within the family is considered radical. It is radical

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to take a community college class one in computers. Maybe

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it is radical to change the style artistic styling of

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the family at restaurant menu, like any toe that anyone

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takes out of out of the circle to do anything different,

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if you will, is seen as an affront and is

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like a radical thing to do. There's like no wiggle room.

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And then obviously with the Ian situation, Tula, that's a

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bigger version of that. Like you were saying, Hannah, like, romantically,

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who you marry isn't just like who you're marrying. You're

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bringing someone into our lives, into our family. We all

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we're all marrying Ian. If you're marrying Ian, And I.

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Speaker 2: Feel like the other things, what it really stops, is

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it really stops anyone being allowed to do or go

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for something that they're actually interested in. Your interests all

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have to be the same, You all have to be

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working towards the same goal, and you can't And again

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that kind of like you can't step out of line.

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And so I feel like where we see Nick the

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brother bring the menus with different art on them, where.

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Speaker 4: We see.

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Speaker 2: Tula trying to ask to do something different and wanting

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to work at the agency, they have to do this

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whole trick and pony show for the dad in order

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for him to say yes, Like he's the one who

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has to agree to everything before we can make any

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before anything can really start happening. Where normally, if somebody

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wants to take a college course, you just sign up

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and take the course. It doesn't have to be approved

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by especially when you're thirty fucking years old, it doesn't

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have to be approved by the head of the family.

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Speaker 1: Well, you brought up that point right then, that there

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usually is ahead of the family, and in this one it's.

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Speaker 4: Gus Gus, Yes, definitely.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, like what you were saying, Hannah, Well yeah,

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And what you were saying, Hannah, is that even for

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her to take a college course, to still to do that,

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they have to convince him that it's connected to the

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rules of the family. Basically, they have to convince him

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that it's in service of the family, and it isn't

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Tula stepping out of the family. So she's not breaking

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a rule to do that. She is following the family

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in measurement rule in just a way that could look

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like she was stepping out, Like all this work to

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please him and to stay in line with what he wants,

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and the fact that that's treated and encouraged for Tula

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like that is okay.

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Speaker 3: It's encouraged. Yeah, just okay, that's it.

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Speaker 4: And it's actually like smart and wiley to do that.

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Speaker 3: It's just this is the way. That's it. This is

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the way. Yeah, there's no other way. And it's really

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clear that the children of the next generations are starting

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to view this as quite outdated and recognizing how different

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it feels from the way their peers family are run,

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while the older generations are looking at it like, yeah,

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what do you expect this way? It is? You just

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that's what you do. You work in the restaurant. It's

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your family's restaurant. Your father built it as the restaurant.

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What do you mean do something else. You're gonna be

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in the restaurant. Why wouldn't you be in the restaurant?

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Her monologue like, right in the beginning of Greek women

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are expected to do a couple things. Mary cook Greek food,

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Mary Greek men cook Greek food, make Greek babies.

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Speaker 4: It's a very narrow view of what a woman's life

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could be like.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so before we get into the consequences of enmeshment,

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which we're kind of touching on, let's take a break

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here and then talk about like the cultural reasons why

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a family like hers would be so enmeshed. All right,

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So before we jump too hard at critiquing this family

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even more, we wanted to make sure, though, to establish

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up top that there are a lot of very understandable

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reasons for a family to be in mesh in the

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way that we are seeing them in this movie. This

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is obviously a movie, given the title, that centers their culture,

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their Greekness, around why their family operates the way that

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it does, and touches upon that throughout the movie. Obviously,

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So up top, as we are all three non Greeks, yes, yes,

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or any of you as are hiding some from.

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Speaker 3: Me, I'm pretty firmly Northern European according to my genetic tests.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so one thing we do want to acknowledge

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is this is a family of people that are first

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gen is who immigrated to the country.

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Speaker 3: It Okay, so he talks about he came to the

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country with.

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Speaker 4: Eight thousand dollars in his pocket something classic. Yeah, so

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Tula is a first gen correct.

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Speaker 1: So one thing when to say is that we aren't Greek.

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And so I'm sure there is a lot of part

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of the Greek culture that we don't. We don't know

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because we don't experience it. That does create this dynamic

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we are seeing in the movie. And then also something

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some things that are probably specific to being Greek. I

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know something you mentioned Ben before I started recording is

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that the country of Greece was going through a lot

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of turmoil.

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Speaker 3: I mean historically Greece, historically by a great many nations,

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in particular Turkey. Greece has been invaded a lot. Think

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about the course of history, how many wars that there

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have been in that region. And for that reason, there's

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been a lot of genetic cleansing. Greeks have been enslaved,

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and they have been viewed as less than and they

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have gone through a whole lot of loss and violence.

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We see the grandmother character in this constantly in a

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state of trauma. The Turks are invading again, and that

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is something that happened a lot. So when you think

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about a people that have had to lean into their

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own genetic identity for safety, it explains a lot of

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where the enmeshment may come from, because outsiders were seeking

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to kill or enslave their people. So therefore trust no

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one who is in Greek gets to be very very

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simple and rooted in survival. Are they Greek? No, then

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they are in our friends. If you're the child of

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war or the child of a child of war, you

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or train your children to understand the world from the

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frame point you understand it.

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Speaker 1: And the movie, even though it is played for jokes,

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they clearly inform us that the turmoil was so bad

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in just their like immediate famili's memory, that their grandmother,

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the grandmother is having like yeah, PTSD, you know, maybe

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like dementiaes PTSD field flashbacks, but she is having PTSD,

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so it was bad enough that she's still experiencing the

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intensity of that, and her son chose to leave their

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country and come to another country and bring her with him, obviously.

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And so then the other layer to this is, you know,

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being immigrants to America, a country that famously likes to

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treat every wave of whatever country immigrants is coming in

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as like the new parasite. As much as we like

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to pretend though we are like a melting pot, as

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we like to say, or that we are like immigrants welcome.

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If there's one thing that America is good at, it's

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like choosing one scapegoat per immigration cycle. Yes, so immigrating

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here just compounds like these protective the protective nature of enmeshment.

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Speaker 3: Of course it does, because you are moving to a

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place that is very different than where you are from,

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and literally everything is different. Chicago does not look a

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single thing like Greece. What what even though this movie

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takes place here, and even Greek Town is a thing. Yeah,

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it is not a tremendously large area, No, but it exists,

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but it's not big and it certainly doesn't look anything

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like Greece. And you don't see Greek people everywhere like

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you would in the country of Greece. So people that

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move here obviously are going to want to create a

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community around other people that they feel at home around.

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And that's normal. That's normal for anybody that moves anywhere.

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Is to want to keep some sense of familiarity, because

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that's how we foster safety. We find things that are

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familiar because then we understand how to operate within a culture.

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And human beings are at our core social beings. Part

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of our neurological structure wants us to connect to other

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humans because animals that get isolated in the wild die,

303
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So we learn to connect to other people and the

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other people that are like us. Is really simple, and

305
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it's understandable why we see this entire community of this

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family lean further and further into those traditions as they

307
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are farther and farther away, especially from what their parents

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would know. The more emigrated families integrate into the place

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they emigrated too, the more the children by generation become

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more like the people of the new country.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, which being Americanized or wherever.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, But they the parents who see them becoming exposed

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to more and more culturalisms that are unfamiliar to them

314
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and feel dangerous and threatening, and like they lose their

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children and lose their own identity by losing their children.

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Starts to become a pretty big conflict.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So why you see so much pressure for the enmeshment,

319
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Because no, we have to keep them Greek, keep them

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Greek Orthodox. They can't change religion, they can't step outside

321
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of the family because if the family doesn't approve, we'll

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be bringing in people that aren't safe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and also makes more sense of why there's this

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idea that you only work at family businesses that their

325
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safety to that too, Like you're not going to get fired,

326
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you're not going to be discriminated against.

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Speaker 4: You know, you can we can depend on the family.

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And they did really well.

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Speaker 1: Like they have a lot of businesses if they run

330
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so they are doing kind of what we would call

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like the quote unquote American dream of like coming here

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and being like very self sufficient within their family.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, and so one I.

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Speaker 1: Can also understand the attack, like the attachment to those

335
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achievements as well of like I mean, I would understand

336
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how it would probably feel really heartbreaking if you work

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really hard to build a business and you have kids

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and then none of your kids want to take over

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that business and the business just dies on the vine.

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Speaker 4: That would be really hard, you know.

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Speaker 1: And and also so this idea that yeah, you came here,

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you created this foundation for your children, and you want

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them to appreciate it and then also take advantage of it.

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And so I get there's a lot of safety within.

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Don't venture too far outside the house. You can work

346
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somewhere else, but you can work at your aunt's travel agency.

347
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And then like you were saying, you're going to marry someone,

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can we trust them? Do they get it? Do they

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understand us? Are we starting to like water down our culture?

350
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Which is why with situations like this, there might be

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the request, like with Ian, of converting to their religion

352
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as a way to take the edge off of that,

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take the sting out of that.

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Speaker 3: Oh, if they don't, they won't be recognized by the church.

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That'd be a constant source of shame for the whole

356
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family have been expected to not ever acknowledge them as

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married according to the church. The Orthodox churches are very

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very strict.

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Speaker 1: What are other other things that you see hand in

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terms of like cultural reasonings, protective factors around and meshment.

361
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Speaker 2: I don't know if I feel like there's anything else

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that needs to be said about it. I think that

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a lot of times families do what they have to

364
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in order for them to survive, and especially when they're

365
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not from this country, that's, you know, a big ask,

366
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especially in America, you have to do a lot of

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different things to protect the culture from being appropriated, from

368
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being misunderstood. It definitely makes sense for this family why.

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Speaker 4: They are so enmeshed. And I feel like also in

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some ways kind of when the whole family is in

371
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such a dynamic where everything revolves around exactly what's happening

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in the family all the time, that's all everybody is

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ever talking about and that's all you're ever doing.

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Speaker 2: That that makes you almost detached from the rest of

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the culture that's around you in general as well. So

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then and then the only way to keep that culture

377
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up is to continue to do things within the family.

378
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So you also the there's a really big lack of

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even wanting to try something different, of even thinking about

380
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something different. Like those things just aren't gonna happen because

381
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it's not what well.

382
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Speaker 4: It's not what feels safe.

383
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Speaker 1: Yeah, And you can see also Gus, like there's that

384
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,799
clip in the beginning when they're in the car and

385
00:23:32,839 --> 00:23:36,400
he's expounding about Greece and she says that my dad

386
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,839
will bring anything back to Greek culture. Yes, like every

387
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,039
like word is relating Greek culture. Yeah, things like that.

388
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And at the time I was I was kind of pondering,

389
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is this same reaction to maybe like guilt for like,

390
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because I'm like a third generation immigrant technically, so like

391
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I feel very far removed from.

392
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Speaker 4: All this kind of stuff, And.

393
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Speaker 1: I wonder, like, was is he feeling guilt for like

394
00:24:05,279 --> 00:24:09,240
leaving his country, And so there's like this overcompensation for

395
00:24:10,039 --> 00:24:12,839
bringing up Greece all the time. It's like, you know,

396
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:14,960
but Greek is the best, and even though I left Greece,

397
00:24:15,079 --> 00:24:17,519
like they're still the best at everything, and like needing

398
00:24:17,559 --> 00:24:19,440
to make that known all the time. But now as

399
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,359
we're talking about it, I also wonder if there's also

400
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,480
a bit of there's such a pool in American culture

401
00:24:24,519 --> 00:24:30,359
to assimilate understandably, so, yes, and I wonder if that

402
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:35,359
is him also kind of trying to battle that with

403
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,599
his children of like, you will want to assimilate, and

404
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:41,920
I'm trying to remind you that like that's not necessarily

405
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,680
the best option assimilating. We come from a great culture

406
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,640
and you don't have to assimilate to be proud of

407
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,480
yourself to feel good.

408
00:24:51,079 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 3: Well, of course, it's the struggle that all immigrant families

409
00:24:54,079 --> 00:25:00,200
go through. You eventually run into the reality that you

410
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,680
did leave. You do still have family connections that are

411
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,160
back there. In some cases you are doing quite a

412
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bit better than they are, And there is guilt and

413
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grief and a sense of loss of your own culture

414
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,359
that you are trying to resist and that people struggle with.

415
00:25:20,839 --> 00:25:24,160
And I think Gus probably does struggle with that and

416
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,640
still wants people, especially his children, who aren't going to

417
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,119
know Greece like he does, having not ever lived there.

418
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:36,640
Although oftentimes people are from Greek families are do a

419
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,279
lot of vacationing with family in Greece, but they still

420
00:25:40,319 --> 00:25:44,039
will never have the experience of being Greek from Greece,

421
00:25:44,519 --> 00:25:47,039
and the parent is always going to have that as

422
00:25:47,079 --> 00:25:50,559
part of their identity. The person who emigrated will always

423
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be where they are from first, and so long as

424
00:25:54,039 --> 00:25:57,240
that's making up their identity, they're going to resist changes

425
00:25:57,319 --> 00:26:02,599
that make them step away from that. Everyone does. Not

426
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaking English is difficult in America, yes, and if you

427
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,000
don't have people that also speak the language you do

428
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:16,039
to consult on how to emigrate here, you may get

429
00:26:16,079 --> 00:26:20,960
difficult answers, like on the culture of Chicago, especially downtown

430
00:26:21,079 --> 00:26:23,960
area where Greek Town is just to the west of

431
00:26:24,039 --> 00:26:28,960
downtown that's just off South Loop, and where Gus would

432
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,759
have struggled moving here is encountering that had he had

433
00:26:32,759 --> 00:26:35,240
a question or anythink, he would have encountered people being

434
00:26:35,279 --> 00:26:36,799
like why the fuck are you talking to me? As

435
00:26:36,839 --> 00:26:40,480
their immediate basis. They may have gotten past that, but

436
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,279
it wouldn't have been friendly faces of do you need help?

437
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,799
That It would be a vast minority of Chicagoans that

438
00:26:46,799 --> 00:26:51,440
would do that for him, and leaning into other people

439
00:26:51,519 --> 00:26:54,039
who are of his culture, he would have been able

440
00:26:54,079 --> 00:26:57,920
to learn what he needed to do to navigate this complicated,

441
00:26:58,119 --> 00:26:59,759
ridiculous bureaucracy of America.

442
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: I also imagine with what you're saying about Gus in

443
00:27:02,319 --> 00:27:04,799
Chicago that like the people that are finally like I'm

444
00:27:04,799 --> 00:27:06,559
finally being seen as part of the end group here

445
00:27:06,559 --> 00:27:09,519
in Chicago. So don't come over here with your Greek

446
00:27:09,559 --> 00:27:12,720
accent fuck my shit up, like you stay over there

447
00:27:12,759 --> 00:27:16,319
like that protective nature. Unfortunately, that happens with like assimilating

448
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,079
into a culture like America.

449
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that generally happens. I'm not aware of

450
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,720
that happening to Greek, but that also is because I'm

451
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,759
not Greek, so no one would have told me that story.

452
00:27:26,839 --> 00:27:31,240
I'm sure they exist. I've heard lots of the Italian ones, yeah,

453
00:27:31,279 --> 00:27:36,559
but the and Polish and others. It's true that you know,

454
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,079
once people get a foothold it, you know, the assimilation starts.

455
00:27:41,079 --> 00:27:43,960
But that that's too where that guilt that you're mentioning

456
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,759
comes in is people still want to maintain a connection

457
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,119
to what feels like home and what feels right to them,

458
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,279
because everywhere in the world has a different way of

459
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,000
doing things, and no one's right or wrong. It just is.

460
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,519
But if it's right to you, you're going to it,

461
00:28:01,839 --> 00:28:03,680
and it will feel weird to you to let it

462
00:28:03,759 --> 00:28:07,119
go because you'll be abandoning what is your home.

463
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: So why don't we take another break here and we'll

464
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,480
be back with consequences of enmeshment. As much as we've

465
00:28:14,519 --> 00:28:16,599
sort of been like doing a lot of justifying and

466
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:21,000
understanding why the family is enmeshed, we've also been talking

467
00:28:21,039 --> 00:28:26,640
about how there's a tipping point where this community togetherness

468
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,039
starts to outlast its use, its function, if you will,

469
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,359
And this will happen in what we see with like

470
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,240
Tula and Nick, because as you mentioned before, it's recording

471
00:28:39,279 --> 00:28:42,599
Ben Nick's pretty well, it's not his story. Maybe it

472
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,480
was a Nick's story, we would see more Nick, but

473
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,519
it's Tula's story, so we don't see as much of Nick.

474
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,720
He's kind of in the periphery all the time. But

475
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:54,440
this idea of you can't let your child become their

476
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,880
own person outside of what the family has sanctioned appropriate

477
00:29:00,039 --> 00:29:03,440
and so because of that, how can you develop as

478
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,480
an individual if you aren't allowed to even be curious

479
00:29:08,079 --> 00:29:12,160
about your interests and what maybe makes you and not

480
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:17,400
even different than the family, just what makes you unique.

481
00:29:17,519 --> 00:29:22,119
And like with Nickots's art and with Tula, I don't

482
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,519
know does she figure out what makes her unique other

483
00:29:24,599 --> 00:29:27,440
than like doing computer classes with the travel agency and

484
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:28,079
meeting Anne.

485
00:29:28,119 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 3: And she's clearly smart and she likes smart. She likes

486
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:36,240
to modernize things, and she wants to take lessons in

487
00:29:36,279 --> 00:29:39,319
computer classes. And she also has felt two thousand and

488
00:29:39,319 --> 00:29:45,160
two right, and she's felt like pretty consistently kind of

489
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,359
on the outskirts of the cultures or her you know,

490
00:29:47,519 --> 00:29:51,720
meeting somebody that will accept her for her.

491
00:29:52,279 --> 00:29:54,839
Speaker 1: Yes, well, yeah, you're making a great point, which is

492
00:29:54,839 --> 00:29:57,559
that a consequence for someone like Tula is if you

493
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,359
don't fit in yep, to the family that you're in

494
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,799
mesh within. But that is her big sin, that's her

495
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,599
uniqueness which is fucking her up, correct, is that she's

496
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:15,359
not conventionally Greek hot like her cousin Nikki. Mm hmmm, yeah,

497
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,319
so she isn't dating, She isn't like I mean, the

498
00:30:17,359 --> 00:30:20,759
amount of times they talk about her appearance. Everyone in

499
00:30:20,799 --> 00:30:24,400
this fucking movie has a fucking opinion about how she looks.

500
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,240
And not only the opinion about how she looks, Tula,

501
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,240
but they also the amount of times that they say

502
00:30:28,279 --> 00:30:29,960
that she's not attractive.

503
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,519
Speaker 3: She looks old is the most common one they give.

504
00:30:34,279 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the amount of times that they but the

505
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,880
amount of times that everybody makes a comment about that

506
00:30:40,359 --> 00:30:43,200
or everyone is like worried about it, and everyone's talking

507
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,200
about it, and meanwhile Tula is just meant to what

508
00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:49,400
not absorb any of those thoughts or feelings.

509
00:30:50,039 --> 00:30:51,519
Speaker 3: How she clearly does, and.

510
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 2: She clearly soaks them up because we can tell that

511
00:30:54,519 --> 00:30:59,240
she doesn't feel good, she doesn't look happy, she doesn't

512
00:30:59,279 --> 00:31:02,039
feel like she she also doesn't feel like she knows

513
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:03,359
who she is.

514
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's When we first meet her, she's doing nothing

515
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:12,279
to accentuate the features that she could feel good about

516
00:31:12,279 --> 00:31:15,839
herself about. People tend to highlight the features of themselves

517
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,000
that they feel good about, and she does none of

518
00:31:19,039 --> 00:31:22,839
that until later in the movie, where she starts feeling

519
00:31:23,839 --> 00:31:26,759
secure enough in herself to go like, you know what,

520
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,119
I am smart and I can do this, and I

521
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,839
am kind of pretty. If I make myself look this way,

522
00:31:32,839 --> 00:31:35,200
and then well look at that, I look way better

523
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,319
and I feel good and I'm shopping in buying clothes

524
00:31:37,359 --> 00:31:40,000
that don't make me look like I'm wearing hand me

525
00:31:40,079 --> 00:31:41,839
downs from nineteen eighty three.

526
00:31:42,559 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: She just really dresses like she's she is stuck in time,

527
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,680
like the outpha she wears in the very first like

528
00:31:49,799 --> 00:31:54,319
cafe scene, yes, where she's serving coffee, she looks great, Like,

529
00:31:54,359 --> 00:31:54,920
I'm just like.

530
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 4: Girl, who what ben.

531
00:31:58,160 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 2: In?

532
00:31:58,279 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 4: Who's relatives house? Did you get this clothes?

533
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:01,599
Speaker 3: I mean you already know the answer to that.

534
00:32:02,599 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: You're probably one of your aunts or like an older

535
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:10,160
cousin her mother. But yeah, this is what's so enraging

536
00:32:10,319 --> 00:32:12,759
about this movie when I was watching it, is like

537
00:32:13,359 --> 00:32:16,480
you guys are so preoccupied with how she looks and

538
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:22,039
her being confident if you will, yet no connecting dots

539
00:32:22,079 --> 00:32:23,960
in your brains about the fact that, like, the way

540
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,759
you're treating her is why she feels like this.

541
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 3: Like cutting her down at every opportunity.

542
00:32:29,279 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 4: You're cutting her down. You're not.

543
00:32:30,519 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 2: But they're also not supporting her learning anything about herself.

544
00:32:34,039 --> 00:32:37,920
They're not supporting her until and only until she already

545
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,519
does the work on herself. Then they begin to support her.

546
00:32:42,279 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, because if she's told her whole life, because it

547
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:50,039
seems like she's been told since she hit tween years,

548
00:32:50,079 --> 00:32:53,880
maybe not even puberty, about how she looks, Like, then

549
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,000
you're just going to accept at a certain point, I

550
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,720
guess I'm just ugly of how my family or how

551
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,440
the culture talks about beauty. So if I've decided I'm

552
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,119
just ugly, then I will just not do anything to

553
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:09,680
not be ugly.

554
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 4: What's the point.

555
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, So her also leaning into not taking care of

556
00:33:13,599 --> 00:33:17,119
her physical appearance makes sense to me from someone who

557
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,000
at some point just gave up. You know, I'm not

558
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,039
going to meet the standards of this family. I'm just

559
00:33:23,079 --> 00:33:27,079
not naturally Baba boom in the way that like my

560
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,240
cousin Nikki is or my aunts are or whatever.

561
00:33:29,559 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 4: So who cares what I look like?

562
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:33,559
Speaker 1: I can't be what they want, So I'm just going

563
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,680
to give up, which is so much of what we've

564
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,920
been talking about. You could also define as like rigidity

565
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:40,720
in this family, like it's very all or nothing. Either

566
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,440
you're fully in or you're you're betraying us. Yes, what

567
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,519
does he say when she wants to say the commuter class,

568
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:48,279
why you want to leave me?

569
00:33:48,559 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 2: Yeah?

570
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,079
Speaker 1: Because she wants to take a community culture class, and

571
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,920
so there's this idea that like you can't there's no nuance,

572
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,000
there's no grayer of anything. So I think how choseo

573
00:33:58,079 --> 00:34:01,680
Fortula is she's given up on how she looks, she's

574
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:06,200
given up on being marriageable. She's really taken on the

575
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,639
mantle of not even like a late bloomer, like it

576
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:10,239
never was.

577
00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:14,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah.

578
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 3: And the consequences of enmeshment are that unless you can

579
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:24,000
meet the pre established criteria, then you are constantly reminded

580
00:34:24,119 --> 00:34:26,800
of what you do not meet and aren't built up

581
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,599
in a way that allows you to meet any markers

582
00:34:31,599 --> 00:34:33,800
of growth that are possible for you.

583
00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think what her family. What I want

584
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,039
to distinguish as well when this comes up with the

585
00:34:39,079 --> 00:34:42,760
clients I work with, which is that there is nothing

586
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:44,639
like that. Don't think's being through close to your family.

587
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,199
And there's a difference between being really up each other's

588
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:54,440
butts and being unconsiderate, inconsiderate, and unkind. There's also a

589
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,639
certain level of like normalized criticism in this family. Yes,

590
00:34:58,679 --> 00:35:03,039
I would even say normalized meanness. Yeah, that's different than

591
00:35:03,679 --> 00:35:08,000
being close, and that is to me where it really

592
00:35:08,039 --> 00:35:11,519
turns into more like toxic enmeshment because a lot of

593
00:35:11,679 --> 00:35:15,920
enmeshment because it's so we're allowed to have opinions about

594
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,360
each other. There is this like freeness about how you

595
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,719
talk about each other to each other's face a lot

596
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:22,199
of the time.

597
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 4: And that's okay.

598
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,320
Speaker 1: The way that I'm allowed to have an opinion about

599
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:31,239
myself that's not kind. If I also view Hannah as

600
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,440
my arm, then I'm also allowed to talk to her

601
00:35:34,639 --> 00:35:36,519
in an unkind way that I would talk to myself.

602
00:35:37,519 --> 00:35:40,440
And so that's where it starts to veer from just

603
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,920
like we're really close knit family to we are in

604
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,159
mesh in a way that's not.

605
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 3: Healthy, or that we say it within earshot, yes, because

606
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,920
we pretend that somebody won't hear it, or that somebody

607
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,239
who will tell them it was said won't tell them,

608
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,440
and it's neither of those are ever true. I'd go

609
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,199
back to Thomas Pain on that one. The only way

610
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:04,400
three men can keep a secret as if two of

611
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,280
them are dead, Yes, that before that is true. And

612
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,320
looking at like these things with enmeshment, you see is

613
00:36:11,519 --> 00:36:13,719
like a lack of confidence, a feeling of I can

614
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,400
never be good enough, I can never be enough. And

615
00:36:16,559 --> 00:36:21,280
there was a study done on how people and animals,

616
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,519
in particular how animals respond to punishment. With the dog

617
00:36:24,559 --> 00:36:27,679
on an electrified floor, where they would rotate around where

618
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,480
the food was, where the safe sun was. There's four panels,

619
00:36:30,519 --> 00:36:34,440
four quadrants of electrified floor, and they would mix up

620
00:36:34,679 --> 00:36:37,000
when the dog would get a shock, where where it

621
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,039
would step, and then when it could get food so

622
00:36:39,039 --> 00:36:42,159
it could get a reward. They found when the dog

623
00:36:42,199 --> 00:36:44,920
could figure out when the dog was going to get shocked,

624
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,800
you'd just hang out wherever he wasn't going to get shocked,

625
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,639
and whether the food was present there or not. He'd

626
00:36:49,639 --> 00:36:51,400
wait until he wasn't going to get shocked to go eat,

627
00:36:53,039 --> 00:36:54,960
and he'd figure out the pattern and be okay with it.

628
00:36:55,199 --> 00:36:58,000
When the dog couldn't figure out when he was going

629
00:36:58,079 --> 00:37:00,840
to get shocked, he wouldn't move. When he got shocked

630
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,719
for doing anything, he wouldn't move. And when you see

631
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,239
someone like Tula giving up because no matter what she does,

632
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,480
she's not good enough. Yeah, she's not gonna try, or

633
00:37:13,519 --> 00:37:17,960
she'll believe she's just stupid and her ceiling has already

634
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,440
been met because her purpose has been fulfilled. According to

635
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,599
her family. Oh wait, no, sorry, we're talking about Tula.

636
00:37:22,599 --> 00:37:26,800
That's Nick. Nick feels like he's reached his ceiling because

637
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,440
everyone's probably kind of told him, Yeah, Nick's kind of

638
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,800
a fuck up. Nick's kind of dumb. I don't know.

639
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,159
I don't know Nick Wood does. But Nick is clearly

640
00:37:34,199 --> 00:37:37,400
a gifted and talented artist. But that's not seen or

641
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,079
reinforced or rewarded by the family because it's not seen

642
00:37:41,119 --> 00:37:44,559
as something that has value to the family, to the

643
00:37:44,559 --> 00:37:48,679
point that even something that would have value is rejected

644
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:50,079
because it wasn't Gus's idea.

645
00:37:51,599 --> 00:37:57,159
Speaker 1: And when you have these very specific boxes you're allowed

646
00:37:57,199 --> 00:38:00,800
to be in that if you can't fulfill those boxes,

647
00:38:01,159 --> 00:38:02,280
you will feel like a failure.

648
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:02,679
Speaker 4: Like there's e.

649
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 1: Einstein quote right of like if you judge a fish

650
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,360
by how while it rides a bicycle, I think it's

651
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:12,000
fucking stupid, basically, yeah, And so I think, thank you,

652
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:13,039
he would have liked it.

653
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 4: And so with Tula, she.

654
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:23,199
Speaker 1: Is very smart and and maybe even like ambitious, right,

655
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,480
And that's not a characteristic that you're allowed to be

656
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:31,679
as a woman in this family. So she is judging

657
00:38:31,679 --> 00:38:34,039
herself by how while she rides a bike basically, and

658
00:38:34,079 --> 00:38:37,719
that ain't good. And so she just thinks that she's

659
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,719
a failure. Similar to Nick, if he was allowed to

660
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,519
be curious about all the parts of him that could

661
00:38:44,519 --> 00:38:48,800
be intelligent and strong, he would feel better about himself.

662
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,840
But no, you're only allowed to judge yourself based on

663
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:55,079
these like very narrow traits and very narrow roles. And

664
00:38:55,119 --> 00:38:58,440
so if you just if you're just unlucky enough basically

665
00:38:59,079 --> 00:39:01,320
to just not be able to fulfill those roles, well

666
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,400
you're fucked. And that's also where a lot of this

667
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:08,079
judgment can come from, where it really is like luck,

668
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,840
like her older sister Athena just happening to check all

669
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:16,000
the boxes within the family system, that's just luck, Nikki

670
00:39:16,039 --> 00:39:21,119
being like conventionally attractive, that's just luck within their narrow

671
00:39:21,559 --> 00:39:21,960
view of.

672
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:23,760
Speaker 3: It, within the genetic lottery, it's luck.

673
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.

674
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,519
Speaker 1: And it's also luck to like intelligence wise, to be

675
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:36,320
interested and intelligent in the very narrow interest pool that

676
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:40,920
you're allowed to be interested in. And it is stifling,

677
00:39:41,159 --> 00:39:44,679
it's truly stifling, and people will just stop growing.

678
00:39:46,599 --> 00:39:50,760
Speaker 2: Especially because they can't even think about their wants or

679
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,320
needs at all. They're not allowed to have them. So

680
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,199
if you're not allowed to have them, you're not allowed

681
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:59,199
to voice them. Then what's the what's the point.

682
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:00,639
Speaker 4: Or do you even know this? Things exist?

683
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're in such a close, closed system, how

684
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,599
would you know if you're good at art unless you

685
00:40:07,639 --> 00:40:10,599
happen to come across something that inspires you, or good

686
00:40:10,599 --> 00:40:14,920
at something like technology and computers. I think one of

687
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,039
the great things about I guess the Internet is that

688
00:40:18,079 --> 00:40:21,079
it's exposed a lot of people to more ideas like, Oh,

689
00:40:21,119 --> 00:40:23,320
I didn't realize like that could be something you could do,

690
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,000
and I think that's something I could be good at.

691
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:33,119
And prior to that, unless you were resilient enough to

692
00:40:33,559 --> 00:40:36,480
go out there and look for it, if it wasn't

693
00:40:36,519 --> 00:40:38,639
shown to you, you wouldn't even realize that it is

694
00:40:38,679 --> 00:40:40,559
something that's a positive, like a strength.

695
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 3: Why would you?

696
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 4: Yeah?

697
00:40:44,039 --> 00:40:48,119
Speaker 3: And the deeper that goes into our sense of self,

698
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:53,119
I'm not good enough becomes a core belief yes, and

699
00:40:53,159 --> 00:40:55,880
then it becomes the way they view themselves in the

700
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,920
world all the time. And if no matter what I do,

701
00:41:00,199 --> 00:41:05,159
I won't be good enough comes to be a core

702
00:41:05,199 --> 00:41:09,320
belief for a person, they don't have any more internal

703
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:17,039
reason to try because they've already decided, because they've been

704
00:41:17,079 --> 00:41:21,400
shown and told that they're not enough, that you can't

705
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:26,159
be enough, Like, why can't you just be prettier? Anybody

706
00:41:26,199 --> 00:41:27,280
else been successful at that?

707
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:32,119
Speaker 1: Ever, the way that they're treating how Tula looks like

708
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:38,159
she's doing something wrong. Yes, right, Because what I do

709
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:42,559
like about this movie is that even when she quote

710
00:41:42,599 --> 00:41:46,199
unquote like makes herself over, she still looks like her.

711
00:41:46,559 --> 00:41:47,800
Speaker 4: She hasn't gotten a nose job.

712
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:49,760
Speaker 1: She hasn't like gotten like, she hasn't done that horrible

713
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:51,360
thing where they put there in like a fat suit.

714
00:41:52,119 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, and she loses a bunch of weight.

715
00:41:54,039 --> 00:41:57,199
Speaker 1: Like she really just starts taking care of her She

716
00:41:57,199 --> 00:42:00,519
gets a curly hair routine that works for her, She

717
00:42:00,559 --> 00:42:02,639
pulls her hair away from her goddamn face, probably starts

718
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:07,079
finding a good skincare routine, and maybe starts wearing clothes

719
00:42:07,119 --> 00:42:07,480
that she.

720
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,639
Speaker 4: Picks out herself. Yeah fit her.

721
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 1: Yes, And that's really all that she does differently is

722
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,039
she just starts taking better care of herself, But she

723
00:42:19,079 --> 00:42:20,760
doesn't change how she looks.

724
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 3: She couldn't wear a cool tracksuit like Joey Fatone, so.

725
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,519
Speaker 4: You know, swishing swishing, swishing everywhere you go?

726
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, are we talking about windexer tracksuits?

727
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 4: Both if you're lucky.

728
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,159
Speaker 1: And what I do appreciate that about this movie is

729
00:42:37,199 --> 00:42:42,400
that she does all that before she meets Ian. That also,

730
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,679
it wasn't this thing where an attention from a man

731
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,440
made her finally start taking care of herself better. That

732
00:42:49,559 --> 00:42:53,480
as she got more confident she disagree with me.

733
00:42:53,559 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 3: Then partially it was I disagree.

734
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 4: With you, disagree with my chip, I disagree with ben Oh.

735
00:43:02,199 --> 00:43:02,960
I'm just saying that.

736
00:43:03,039 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 3: Just the same because she was rejecting it. But Ian

737
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,880
paying attention to her though she like, I'm not saying

738
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,280
he's the cause of her change, her getting confidence in

739
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:14,960
like realizing she did a step up in the world.

740
00:43:15,039 --> 00:43:17,039
I'm not crediting like a man paying attention to her

741
00:43:17,079 --> 00:43:20,679
as her change. But I think the story hinted for

742
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:25,800
her that her believing somebody could possibly be interested in

743
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,000
her nonspecific to Ian, somebody that looked like Ian being

744
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:33,960
interested in her genuinely no qualmed about it. The way

745
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,480
Ian was presented as like smiling at her, looking at her,

746
00:43:36,599 --> 00:43:40,159
being tuning into her, that was the catalyst for change

747
00:43:40,679 --> 00:43:44,079
in the story of Like seeing that change. I don't

748
00:43:44,119 --> 00:43:47,440
think that's the psychological reason why Tula changed. I think

749
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,000
Tula realized that she isn't working for Tula here.

750
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what I kind of read it as. More

751
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,239
is like that was kind of her final straw. Yeah,

752
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:58,000
where she was like, this isn't working, like I'm not

753
00:43:58,039 --> 00:43:59,960
getting anything I want in this life.

754
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 3: Well like this and right, and the man that is,

755
00:44:03,679 --> 00:44:06,679
the one man that is showing attention to her wasn't

756
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:14,360
Greek and therefore wasn't available. I think that dynamic produced

757
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,039
the change of realizing I can't play this game and

758
00:44:19,119 --> 00:44:24,039
win no matter what I do. Like this man who

759
00:44:24,039 --> 00:44:28,039
looks perfectly fine, This is a handsome man who's interested

760
00:44:28,039 --> 00:44:29,360
in me, and I can't even I couldn't even have

761
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,559
him in the fay I wanted to because he's not Greek,

762
00:44:31,639 --> 00:44:33,800
so I can't win against my face. I think that's

763
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,599
where she realized I am playing a game that is

764
00:44:36,639 --> 00:44:39,320
a trap, and then I like, fuck this shit. I

765
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:40,519
need to do the things that work for me.

766
00:44:41,559 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 1: And I think what she does, which is very masterful

767
00:44:45,199 --> 00:44:49,440
and insightful, is she's just pushing a little, like she's

768
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,639
still trying to evolve within the framework of her family,

769
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:55,480
Like I'll just work at the travel agency, you know

770
00:44:55,519 --> 00:44:58,599
what I mean, Like Yeah, she's not trying to go

771
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:03,760
full I don't know, like teenager, full rebel fuck you guys,

772
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:05,440
like I'm gonna be goth and I'm gonna go to

773
00:45:05,559 --> 00:45:07,880
art school and you guys gonna fuck yourself. She is

774
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:12,760
still trying to please them in a way, which is

775
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,000
something else I wish they'd appreciate more in this movie.

776
00:45:15,199 --> 00:45:19,280
Like she's she's being very appeasing. Still, she wants to

777
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,639
be close to you guys. She's trying to make it

778
00:45:21,679 --> 00:45:24,400
work in a way that doesn't make her die on

779
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:25,079
the inside.

780
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's not running in and being like so hard

781
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:32,039
like a prop mawk and you know, disrupting everything.

782
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 1: She's not like moving to a different town or going

783
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,800
away to college. She's just trying to like make a

784
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,639
little corner of their world that she can fit in

785
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:47,880
and be herself ish without ruffling too many feathers. And

786
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:52,480
even that isn't good enough until the well it gets there.

787
00:45:52,519 --> 00:45:55,719
But but I think another consequence I did want to

788
00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:57,280
make sure to bring up though, with the Tula thing

789
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,280
and with Nick two, is that when you have a

790
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:06,639
family that's this close, that's enmeshed, when someone isn't having

791
00:46:06,679 --> 00:46:08,800
a good time within that system when the system isn't

792
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:11,440
working for them, so they start branching out.

793
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,199
Speaker 4: What do they do? They start keeping secrets?

794
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 3: Yep.

795
00:46:15,119 --> 00:46:18,400
Speaker 1: And so Nick is keeping his artistic endeavor secret, his

796
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,559
artistic desires at least, and then Tula is keeping her

797
00:46:21,599 --> 00:46:24,920
whole relationship with Ian secret.

798
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:26,559
Speaker 4: She's making up.

799
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,679
Speaker 1: That pottery class. She's like full blown, like having a secret.

800
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,559
Speaker 4: From a completely secret experience from her family.

801
00:46:36,039 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 1: And what does her dad say? Why is nobody telling

802
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:38,840
me nothing?

803
00:46:39,679 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 4: Why the fuck do you think? Asshole? Which is this?

804
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 1: This is also when I work with families that have

805
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:49,199
this stuff going on. This is the unfortunate side effect,

806
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:54,559
ironic consequence of being sold up each other's asses is

807
00:46:54,679 --> 00:46:59,000
that then when your kid or whoever your loved one

808
00:46:59,199 --> 00:47:02,639
wants to do their own thing, saying, they will ironically

809
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:02,960
tell you.

810
00:47:03,079 --> 00:47:08,800
Speaker 3: Less, not ironically naturally right, Well, yeah, they don't naturally

811
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,199
tell you wrong or tell you less because you haven't

812
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:14,800
made it safe to tell them a goddamn thing. Because

813
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,639
anything anything Tula does, any single thing she does, is

814
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:22,920
used against her because some way, shape or form, her

815
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,679
dad is going to find some way that it is wrong,

816
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:27,880
and then everybody else in her family is going to

817
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,440
hear about it, and they're going to tell her it's wrong,

818
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,880
and she's wrong. She's always been wrong. She's more wrong

819
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,159
than she's ever been, and she's always wrong.

820
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,119
Speaker 1: This is the ironic thing that I try to emphasize

821
00:47:39,119 --> 00:47:42,880
to families in this kind of situation, is that, especially

822
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,599
when I work with parents and teenagers, if you let

823
00:47:45,639 --> 00:47:49,519
your kids, if you let your loved ones have some privacy,

824
00:47:50,079 --> 00:47:54,800
I would argue boundaries, Yes, they are more likely to

825
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:59,559
ironically tell you more counterintuitively tell you more. Like I said,

826
00:47:59,559 --> 00:48:02,239
it goes back to that all or nothingness. Either we

827
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:03,880
know everything or I can't tell you anything.

828
00:48:04,599 --> 00:48:05,199
Speaker 4: And so if you.

829
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,559
Speaker 1: Let people feel like they're allowed to keep seecrets, allowed

830
00:48:07,599 --> 00:48:11,519
to have private information, then they are more likely to

831
00:48:11,679 --> 00:48:14,000
feel like they can tell you something, especially in the

832
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,239
situation like you were saying, Ben, where if I tell

833
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:22,360
one person this fucking family, by midday, my second cousin

834
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:25,719
knows what's going on, yep, and everyone has a fucking opinion.

835
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:29,360
It's like living with like a fucking Reddit board that's

836
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:30,480
screaming in your face, you.

837
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 4: Know what I mean.

838
00:48:31,519 --> 00:48:35,119
Speaker 1: And so part of that too is there might be

839
00:48:35,199 --> 00:48:37,679
things that you just want to tell your mom, you

840
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:40,760
just want to tell your dad, your cousin, your brother

841
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:45,519
without telling everybody else. And so this is a byproduct

842
00:48:45,679 --> 00:48:51,599
of this leaky faucet communication where everybody gets where everything

843
00:48:51,599 --> 00:48:53,679
that gets told to anybody gets kind of put up

844
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:55,920
on the wall for everyone to see and read and

845
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,519
comment on. Is that then people just keep things to themselves?

846
00:48:59,519 --> 00:49:01,079
I fundy this family is a ton.

847
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 3: Of secrets, guarantee.

848
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:07,639
Speaker 4: Oh for sure, more secrets than they have they were unenmeshed, yes.

849
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,039
Speaker 3: And they spend a lot of energy faking, and they

850
00:49:11,039 --> 00:49:14,480
create parts that fit into their family, and then other

851
00:49:14,519 --> 00:49:16,559
parts that the parts that fit in their family have

852
00:49:16,599 --> 00:49:21,440
to reject in order to operate, which is really tricky

853
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:26,000
for people. But it's it's always interesting to see how

854
00:49:26,039 --> 00:49:30,519
many pregnant teenagers drop out of Catholic school. Only people

855
00:49:30,519 --> 00:49:32,000
who don't have sex go there.

856
00:49:32,079 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 4: Right right, you're making the.

857
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're pretending like the narratives being upheld upheld by

858
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:45,559
just rejecting what doesn't comply correct. And I think, going

859
00:49:45,599 --> 00:49:47,000
back to what you're saying of the parts part, are

860
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,039
we finally ready to talk about the neck analogy?

861
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 2: Her mother says that she is the neck and that

862
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,320
she she has control.

863
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:56,199
Speaker 4: Over which way the head turns.

864
00:49:56,239 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: The woman controls the moves the head or whatever she says,

865
00:50:00,159 --> 00:50:00,800
turns the head.

866
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,760
Speaker 3: The man is the head, Yes, the man is the head,

867
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,320
but the woman the.

868
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,599
Speaker 1: Woman, which I feel like is what you're saying, Ben,

869
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:16,280
which is trying to legitimize the position therein which is

870
00:50:17,039 --> 00:50:20,719
I'm stuck as a woman. I'm stuck in this powerless

871
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:24,679
position because we are in a system that adheres to

872
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:30,159
very specific conservative gender roles. Yes, and so in order

873
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:34,639
to feel unimburdened by that, or just in denial of that,

874
00:50:35,159 --> 00:50:37,679
I create this idea that I actually, well, I do

875
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,239
have more power. Actually, it's like in the House of

876
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:42,960
the Dragon, which Ben, you still have not watched, when

877
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:49,079
one woman says to the other woman, you are trying

878
00:50:49,119 --> 00:50:52,599
to build a window in your cell. I am not

879
00:50:52,599 --> 00:50:55,440
trying to be a prisoner at all. When the mom

880
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:57,239
said that, I was like, I know what you're saying,

881
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,960
and I also know what you mean. And you're trying

882
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,559
to make meaning out of this position you're in. Yeah,

883
00:51:05,599 --> 00:51:06,239
And then and.

884
00:51:06,199 --> 00:51:08,599
Speaker 2: You're joining also trying to give yourself and your daughter

885
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:12,800
hope by using while using that language of like you'll

886
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,679
have control over someone's neck. At some point you'll be

887
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:17,519
able to have more flexibility in your life.

888
00:51:17,519 --> 00:51:19,079
Speaker 4: And it's like, no, bitch, I don't want to be

889
00:51:19,119 --> 00:51:21,039
someone else's neck. I don't want to be someone else's neck.

890
00:51:22,519 --> 00:51:25,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, last I checked, the neck is still under the head.

891
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. That would be a good comeback to that.

892
00:51:29,199 --> 00:51:31,719
But yeah, and it's the that's all, that's the whole thing.

893
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,199
When they were doing the whole like where her aunt

894
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,440
came in and they were talking to her gusts and

895
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:40,679
trying to make the computer thing seem like his idea. Yeah,

896
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:42,679
it's that idea of Like then they can kind of

897
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:44,679
pat themselves in the back, like see, like we really

898
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:46,280
run the world women behind these men.

899
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 4: But it's like you still don't have power.

900
00:51:48,519 --> 00:51:50,679
Speaker 2: You still don't have power. You still had to convince

901
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,440
him of something that wasn't true. You still had to

902
00:51:53,519 --> 00:51:55,639
lie about where it came from, You had to lie

903
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:57,320
about your ambition for it.

904
00:51:58,039 --> 00:51:58,719
Speaker 3: You had to.

905
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,599
Speaker 4: Pretend that only what that, only what Gus.

906
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:08,599
Speaker 1: Could see, was acceptable because in this specific family system, culturally,

907
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,280
the male ego is the most important, and so that

908
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:18,079
by definition, will create a situation where the women in

909
00:52:18,079 --> 00:52:23,000
this system are under not under well, under the thought,

910
00:52:23,559 --> 00:52:24,199
but also stifle.

911
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:25,280
Speaker 4: The stifles a great way to put it.

912
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 3: Actually, it's an important way to look at what felt

913
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:33,440
like an empowering moment in the movie, but it wasn't. No,

914
00:52:34,119 --> 00:52:38,920
you know, and it's it's the mom thinks she's being empowering.

915
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 1: The mom says a few things where she thinks that

916
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:44,679
she's being empowering, Like she says, like, we gave you

917
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:47,719
a life so that you could live it. And it's like, really,

918
00:52:48,199 --> 00:52:49,760
you say that, that's a nice thing to put on

919
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:50,679
a pillow.

920
00:52:51,159 --> 00:52:52,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, but are you living that?

921
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:53,599
Speaker 3: Nope?

922
00:52:53,639 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 4: Are you showing that to your daughter or your son,

923
00:52:56,679 --> 00:52:59,159
or your other daughter or anybody anybody?

924
00:52:59,639 --> 00:53:02,159
Speaker 3: She has a short to her No, oh.

925
00:53:02,079 --> 00:53:02,800
Speaker 4: God, yeah.

926
00:53:03,039 --> 00:53:05,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you're making a great point because also, like

927
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:07,639
with the thing with the mom and all these like

928
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,239
gender roles in this movie that are so adhered to,

929
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:13,880
is there also she is saying to her daughter, I

930
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,320
give you a life. I give you a woman's life

931
00:53:16,599 --> 00:53:18,920
so you can live it to a point, and you

932
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:20,960
have to find the man that actually lets you live

933
00:53:21,039 --> 00:53:23,199
life through and you have to get power through the man.

934
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:25,199
So then if you can't get a man.

935
00:53:26,559 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 3: You can't have power.

936
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,719
Speaker 1: You're powerless. You are a nothing burger. You are a

937
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,719
piece of furniture on the wall that we have to

938
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:35,440
kind of like work our way around.

939
00:53:36,079 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 3: Less than you're like that, like shameful painting that like are.

940
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:43,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's Charlotte Lucas, babe, she's twenty seven, and she's

941
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:44,920
a burden on her parents.

942
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:45,199
Speaker 4: You know what I mean?

943
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:51,679
Speaker 2: Yep, yep, yeah, already a burden on my parents.

944
00:53:51,679 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 4: So she fucking says, and I'm scared, Lizzie.

945
00:53:55,159 --> 00:53:56,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, but those are the things that you see as

946
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:58,519
a consequence. For sure. It's like you look at that

947
00:53:58,599 --> 00:54:01,840
and go like, oh see, you thought you were providing

948
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,199
me like a statement in powerment like this is. But

949
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:05,760
this is just how it is, is how you have

950
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:09,039
to operate the culture. And in some respects, there are

951
00:54:09,159 --> 00:54:11,760
things about any culture that are bigger than any of

952
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:15,920
us and that to be accepted we have to follow. However,

953
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:21,199
that doesn't mean that the children of the next generation

954
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,719
are going to have to find their way the same

955
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:27,840
way you had to find yours, because you gave them

956
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:30,639
that life to live. And there's a Hebrew proverb about

957
00:54:30,679 --> 00:54:34,119
that that I discovered that I think I really I

958
00:54:34,119 --> 00:54:36,400
could probably talked about it before, but is don't confine

959
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:40,280
your children to your own learning, for they are of

960
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:44,679
a different time. Yeah, and I feel like Mom did

961
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,519
not pass that test with this lesson.

962
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 2: That is her reality the same way that Tula doesn't

963
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:55,079
escape it when she says to her daughter at the

964
00:54:55,199 --> 00:54:58,079
end of the film, you still have to go to

965
00:54:58,119 --> 00:55:00,360
Greek school, but you can marry whoever you want. But

966
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:02,760
she still can only be married. She still can only

967
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:05,920
have worth in the same fucking way that Tula has worth.

968
00:55:06,159 --> 00:55:09,400
She can't even give her her daughter the flexibility of

969
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:12,320
not going to Greek school, which she fucking hated, or

970
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:13,440
even just like you could.

971
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 4: Be whoever you want.

972
00:55:15,079 --> 00:55:16,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, gotta go to Greek school, but then you can

973
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:19,480
do whatever you want, yeah, instead of just you can marry.

974
00:55:19,519 --> 00:55:23,960
Thank you for that, for that millimeter. Yeah, closer to feminism.

975
00:55:24,199 --> 00:55:26,519
Yeah right, but I still get married. But he could

976
00:55:26,519 --> 00:55:30,320
be he could be anybody. He doesn't have to be Greek. Wow, crazy,

977
00:55:30,519 --> 00:55:31,559
Thanks mom? Right.

978
00:55:32,079 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 3: You know where I've seen the best example of that ever,

979
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:36,119
And I'm gonna say this before we take a break here,

980
00:55:36,119 --> 00:55:41,880
because we do is in Bluie Blue. Repeatedly in one episode,

981
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:45,119
as they're taking out garbage. Bins starts talking about all

982
00:55:45,119 --> 00:55:48,280
the things she wants to do, and she asked her dad, Dad,

983
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:49,800
do you think one day I could be at astronaut?

984
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:53,360
And he just looks at her and goes, if you like, dad,

985
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:55,480
maybe one day I'll be a police officer. What do

986
00:55:55,519 --> 00:55:59,679
you think about that? If you like just that gentle

987
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:03,840
little reminder, that's how you encourage curiosity, that's how you

988
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:08,599
override that. You give people the space to you don't

989
00:56:08,639 --> 00:56:10,679
offer an opinion on just if that's what you'd like

990
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:15,079
to do. Cool, We'll accept you, We'll love you, you

991
00:56:15,079 --> 00:56:17,679
will have all that you need, Your family will not

992
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:21,880
leave you if you dare go to college. Why don't

993
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:23,440
we take a break here and we'll move into the

994
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:24,239
next topic.

995
00:56:25,639 --> 00:56:28,159
Speaker 1: All right, So obviously give this the FLLA nine d

996
00:56:28,159 --> 00:56:30,079
A episode. We wanted to make sure for at least

997
00:56:30,079 --> 00:56:34,440
five minutes to talk about Ian and Tula's relationship, as

998
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:36,280
that is the reason why I was on this poll

999
00:56:37,159 --> 00:56:37,760
to begin with.

1000
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:39,159
Speaker 4: And so.

1001
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:43,800
Speaker 1: What sticks out to us in terms of everything we've

1002
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:45,880
talked about so far, because we wanted to make sure

1003
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:49,199
to talk about and meshment up top because obviously all

1004
00:56:49,199 --> 00:56:53,920
the things we've discussed Trickle into the Ian Tula relationship,

1005
00:56:54,199 --> 00:56:58,000
because he isn't just marrying her, he is marrying her

1006
00:56:58,039 --> 00:56:59,760
family and.

1007
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:04,199
Speaker 4: The opposite of his yes by a mile by about

1008
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:06,039
every way you could be, every way he could be,

1009
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:09,440
which he seems to be quite happy about.

1010
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:12,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, he doesn't seem to have fetishize it. I think

1011
00:57:12,599 --> 00:57:16,400
he just accepts her and all that comes with it.

1012
00:57:16,679 --> 00:57:18,239
At least that's the way he's portrayed. I mean, I'm

1013
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:20,840
sure there's more to you know, a real person who's

1014
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:22,199
not a snapshot.

1015
00:57:22,559 --> 00:57:24,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's astoundingly easygoing.

1016
00:57:25,679 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 2: He's very easy going, he's very flexible, he's very kind.

1017
00:57:33,599 --> 00:57:39,440
He doesn't really buy into the family's enmeshment when the

1018
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:43,559
whole thing happens where they find out about him and

1019
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:46,320
he comes to talk to Gus and get to get

1020
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:49,559
permission to date Tula, and basically the dad says no,

1021
00:57:49,679 --> 00:57:52,199
because of course he does, and he just kind of

1022
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,760
like okay, walks into thegether room and said I'll see you,

1023
00:57:56,199 --> 00:57:59,239
I'll see you tomorrow. Like he doesn't start to a

1024
00:57:59,239 --> 00:58:02,039
fight with the dad. He doesn't. He's just like, I'm

1025
00:58:02,079 --> 00:58:04,920
not gonna be a part of this. This is unnecessary

1026
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:07,320
I'm gonna go talk to the person that I really

1027
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:09,039
give a shit, who's what they think of me? And

1028
00:58:09,079 --> 00:58:11,239
then I'm gonna walk the fuck out of the room. Like,

1029
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:18,039
I think Ian is a much more stable partner in

1030
00:58:18,119 --> 00:58:21,760
this relationship than Tula is because I think Ian knows

1031
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:23,360
a little bit more about who he is.

1032
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:26,000
Speaker 4: Well, Ian's a grown up and Tula is a teenager.

1033
00:58:26,239 --> 00:58:27,079
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1034
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:31,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like that is the consequence of being a late bloomer. Yeah,

1035
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:36,039
is that she's having her first relationship at thirty, and

1036
00:58:36,079 --> 00:58:38,639
the way she's engaging with him because of the enmeshment

1037
00:58:39,199 --> 00:58:43,280
nature of her family is very adolescent making out in

1038
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:45,039
the car and for her parents' house, the fact it

1039
00:58:45,079 --> 00:58:45,840
doesn't have her own.

1040
00:58:46,719 --> 00:58:48,599
Speaker 4: She doesn't even have an apartment. Yeah, she lies with

1041
00:58:48,679 --> 00:58:49,199
her parents, you.

1042
00:58:49,199 --> 00:58:51,039
Speaker 3: Know, so we can't go to his because you know,

1043
00:58:51,079 --> 00:58:51,440
they'll know.

1044
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it requires her to engage in a lot

1045
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:58,800
of teenagery behavior with him. Mm hmm, which continues the

1046
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:00,960
infantilization of her within her family system.

1047
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 4: YadA, YadA, YadA.

1048
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:03,679
Speaker 1: But you're right, like Ian kind of comes in, he

1049
00:59:03,719 --> 00:59:06,440
almost sort of models for her how to be an

1050
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:10,840
actual adult. Yeah, who just listens to your values and

1051
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:16,719
morals and he can recognize like these rules that Tula

1052
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:21,000
you feel like our laws within your family, they're just

1053
00:59:21,239 --> 00:59:23,920
made up. They're just like I don't have to get

1054
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:27,119
your dad's permission to date you if you want to

1055
00:59:27,199 --> 00:59:30,719
date me, because I think what he does really well

1056
00:59:31,559 --> 00:59:32,320
is sent to her.

1057
00:59:33,079 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, as he should.

1058
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:38,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he feeds into none of her neuroticisms. He's

1059
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:43,760
just like nah, yeah, whatever, I'll do whatever you need

1060
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:47,039
where everything's fine, We're going to be fine because I'm

1061
00:59:47,039 --> 00:59:49,679
gonna I'm just I'll do the things. I don't care.

1062
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:52,159
I'll do the thing. What does it take, I'll do it.

1063
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:53,400
Speaker 4: Mm hmm.

1064
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:58,079
Speaker 3: Like that's a big energy from him, is like whatever

1065
00:59:58,119 --> 00:59:59,000
it's going to take, I'll do.

1066
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:00,639
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1067
01:00:00,679 --> 01:00:05,159
Speaker 1: He just wants to help her and make her happy.

1068
01:00:06,559 --> 01:00:10,480
And so if like she doesn't care about getting dad'spproval,

1069
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:13,280
like like i'll see you tomorrow. Yeah, that scene like

1070
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:15,880
that is him just saying like, well, it doesn't matter

1071
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:19,119
if you want me to date your daughter. She's the

1072
01:00:19,119 --> 01:00:23,000
only person who's allowed to have an opinion about me

1073
01:00:23,119 --> 01:00:25,639
dating her or not. And as long as I'm in

1074
01:00:25,679 --> 01:00:28,840
her good graces, it's good. And he only gets like

1075
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:33,519
converts all the stuff because she needs that and she's

1076
01:00:33,719 --> 01:00:37,079
asking that of him. Yeah, because of what's important to

1077
01:00:37,119 --> 01:00:39,119
her with her family. He does a good job, like

1078
01:00:39,159 --> 01:00:42,360
they do do a good job this movie of demonstrating

1079
01:00:42,559 --> 01:00:45,400
that the nuance ironically with what we've been talking about

1080
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:48,320
I kind of said ironically eight hundred times this episode,

1081
01:00:48,519 --> 01:00:50,079
but that.

1082
01:00:50,119 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 3: I'm gonna call you Alanas.

1083
01:00:51,519 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 4: She does fine. I love that city.

1084
01:00:53,599 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 1: She does find this middle ground of picking your battles

1085
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:01,360
with her family. Yeah, and like I don't want to

1086
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:04,000
reject them, I don't want to not be a part

1087
01:01:04,039 --> 01:01:07,400
of them. I literally just want the house next to them,

1088
01:01:08,239 --> 01:01:10,400
Like I want to be a part of this culture.

1089
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:13,280
She doesn't with my own space. Well, she doesn't pick

1090
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:15,239
the house. The dad buys the house next That's a

1091
01:01:15,239 --> 01:01:17,519
great point. That's actually a great point. She does not

1092
01:01:17,599 --> 01:01:18,280
choose that house.

1093
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 4: Do you feeling about that, Hannah, You have a lot

1094
01:01:20,440 --> 01:01:24,039
of feelings about that, A lot of feelings about it.

1095
01:01:25,639 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 3: I want to have them starting in with Nope.

1096
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 4: Yeah exactly, and get the fuck out of here. And I

1097
01:01:30,039 --> 01:01:31,480
want a house. I don't want to live next to you.

1098
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:32,320
Speaker 3: Fuck you.

1099
01:01:33,679 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 2: Also, you're trying to buy my affection after you were

1100
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:37,639
a fucking asshole this whole time.

1101
01:01:37,719 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 4: Get fucked.

1102
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 3: Tell us how you really feel, Hannah.

1103
01:01:43,559 --> 01:01:45,039
Speaker 4: But yeah, but I think they're so.

1104
01:01:45,079 --> 01:01:47,199
Speaker 2: I think you're absolutely right in talking about how Tula

1105
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:51,559
is an adolescent compared to Ian. For sure, there are

1106
01:01:51,559 --> 01:01:55,360
some things about their relationship that I like. In terms

1107
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:58,599
of the other Valentine's Day movies that we've done, I

1108
01:01:58,639 --> 01:02:06,159
think Ian might be the most the nicest, genuinely kind,

1109
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:12,760
genuinely kind male role that we have had in a

1110
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:16,159
romantic movie that we have done. He is the most

1111
01:02:16,199 --> 01:02:20,639
likable by far. Yeah, oh yeah, and that's nice to see.

1112
01:02:21,199 --> 01:02:25,719
That was nice to see somebody like that. And I

1113
01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:30,960
think with Tula, her kind of responding as an adolescent,

1114
01:02:31,079 --> 01:02:34,840
kind of gatekeeping her family, almost of not really answering

1115
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:39,599
his questions, not really telling saying anything about herself to him,

1116
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:42,199
until he finally is like, hey, like I want to

1117
01:02:42,239 --> 01:02:44,679
I really do want to know. I really do want

1118
01:02:44,719 --> 01:02:47,159
to know this about you, and then she's able to

1119
01:02:47,239 --> 01:02:50,519
kind of talk about it a little bit, but still

1120
01:02:50,599 --> 01:02:55,559
doesn't have much insight into why she feels the way

1121
01:02:55,599 --> 01:02:59,159
she does about her family other than they're crazy. Other

1122
01:02:59,199 --> 01:03:00,079
than they're crazy.

1123
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:05,039
Speaker 1: No, I agree that he is very kind. He's very thoughtful,

1124
01:03:05,639 --> 01:03:09,599
and I think, yeah, she's doing that thing that teenagers do,

1125
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:14,280
and there's people who aren't very confident. Yeah, where I

1126
01:03:14,599 --> 01:03:18,920
can't let you see all of me because you won't

1127
01:03:19,039 --> 01:03:21,920
like me if you see all of me, Like if

1128
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:24,840
I let you see the garbage fest that is my family,

1129
01:03:25,239 --> 01:03:28,159
m you'll reject me, which I understan makes sense that

1130
01:03:28,159 --> 01:03:30,159
she feels that way because she's been told by her

1131
01:03:30,159 --> 01:03:31,280
whole family, her whole life.

1132
01:03:31,159 --> 01:03:33,599
Speaker 4: That she's like ugh, yeah.

1133
01:03:33,639 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 1: So I could also see her being like, oh my god,

1134
01:03:36,519 --> 01:03:39,840
this tall, cute man who's really put has a shit

1135
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:44,719
together is interested in me, which is a you know,

1136
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:48,079
a novel experience for her, and then feeling really precious

1137
01:03:48,079 --> 01:03:48,559
about it.

1138
01:03:48,599 --> 01:03:49,480
Speaker 4: I could see.

1139
01:03:49,239 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 1: Why she wants to keep him for herself. It's going

1140
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:54,760
back to like it's like I want to keep this

1141
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:58,320
good thing good, and I don't trust my family and

1142
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:02,079
that they will not ruin it by getting their hands all.

1143
01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:03,920
Speaker 3: Over it because it's what they do.

1144
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:05,920
Speaker 1: Because it's what they do, And so I can't just

1145
01:04:06,039 --> 01:04:08,199
let this thing be something I love that I enjoy

1146
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:11,800
and so being super protective of it, but then not

1147
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:15,840
knowing how to navigate that well with Ian, Yeah, because

1148
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:17,599
all she knows is I either tell you everything or

1149
01:04:17,639 --> 01:04:20,880
I keep secrets. Once again, like they're not being this

1150
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:24,599
middle ground because there isn't any instruction or modeling on

1151
01:04:24,679 --> 01:04:28,519
how to have like a nuanced conversation about anything. And

1152
01:04:28,559 --> 01:04:30,840
I think he does try to teach her that, And

1153
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:33,159
I think what is cool about their dynamic is that

1154
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:36,400
once they get through that moment, what I really like

1155
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:40,280
is the scene in the limo after the wedding. Yeah,

1156
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:43,760
and she obviously looks bonkers with her outfit and her

1157
01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:48,519
hair and her makeup, and he acknowledges that she looks bonkers.

1158
01:04:48,599 --> 01:04:50,760
Speaker 4: Like they feel like friends. Yeah, you know what it is.

1159
01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:53,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, We've watched so many few rom coms or romantic

1160
01:04:53,599 --> 01:04:56,320
movies where the two people feel like fucking friends that

1161
01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:57,559
also are in love with each other.

1162
01:04:58,480 --> 01:04:58,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know.

1163
01:04:59,239 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 1: And so the fact that she even talks about like

1164
01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:03,480
I had this really horrible pimple, Like she isn't feeling

1165
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:08,760
self conscious about constructing herself like this beautiful woman so

1166
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:10,760
that this man will like her.

1167
01:05:11,039 --> 01:05:16,679
Speaker 3: Yeah, and she can be as in the sheets, which she.

1168
01:05:16,599 --> 01:05:18,760
Speaker 4: Clearly is by the way she attacks him on the

1169
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:19,280
couch in.

1170
01:05:19,199 --> 01:05:21,880
Speaker 1: His apartment, has a lot of pent up horniness. Yes

1171
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:24,480
she does, it's in that hair, she's coming out with it.

1172
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:31,000
But oh, I know, I'm pretty sure he was her

1173
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:34,719
first time, right, Yeah, I would imagine's a virgin Bob

1174
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:38,599
doesn't know anything about touching herself sexuality, so it's.

1175
01:05:38,519 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 4: All pent up shit, you know.

1176
01:05:41,119 --> 01:05:44,239
Speaker 1: And I do love that she doesn't feel like she

1177
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:47,760
has to put on this persona to keep him. That

1178
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:50,880
actually she feels like she can be very open with him,

1179
01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:53,440
and she doesn't have to play fucking games with him

1180
01:05:53,719 --> 01:05:55,960
the way that her that's also part of the whole.

1181
01:05:56,000 --> 01:05:58,519
Like the woman is the neck of the head is

1182
01:05:58,559 --> 01:06:01,000
basically saying, like a certain a certain degree of your

1183
01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:06,519
relationship is playing games, yeah, and gaming each other and

1184
01:06:06,559 --> 01:06:09,559
never letting your husband know what the right hand's doing,

1185
01:06:08,679 --> 01:06:12,440
and not being able to have clear direct communication ever

1186
01:06:12,639 --> 01:06:15,400
that you can't, Yeah, you can't talk clearly to a

1187
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:19,960
guy because he will get offended. Yeah, you know, like

1188
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:22,000
you can't have honest So I love the fact that

1189
01:06:22,039 --> 01:06:25,599
with Ian she does have to. She actually gets this

1190
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:28,800
very The most wrong comming thing about this is how

1191
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:35,000
like magical and miraculous their relationship is that he's able

1192
01:06:35,079 --> 01:06:41,599
to model all these really healthy relationship, even not even romantic,

1193
01:06:41,679 --> 01:06:46,199
like just relationship stuff with her, and that she has

1194
01:06:46,199 --> 01:06:50,320
such a good, positive experience in her first relationship.

1195
01:06:52,079 --> 01:06:55,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's what makes this such a compelling fantasy is

1196
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:58,559
that a guy like Ian exists, a.

1197
01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:00,480
Speaker 1: Guy like Ian exists, a guy like he and could

1198
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:04,559
see her before she could see herself. That he goes

1199
01:07:04,599 --> 01:07:08,639
for one hundred once she's able to go in with him.

1200
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:14,280
Speaker 3: And he is willing to do whatever it takes to

1201
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:17,679
meet all of the conditions of her family. And that

1202
01:07:17,719 --> 01:07:20,079
he just happens to come from potato people.

1203
01:07:20,639 --> 01:07:21,159
Speaker 4: Like he is.

1204
01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 1: He doesn't really have a strong cultural connection connection himself,

1205
01:07:27,119 --> 01:07:28,760
because it'd be one thing, yeah, if he was like

1206
01:07:28,840 --> 01:07:32,119
Jewish or Catholic, you know, or he had his own

1207
01:07:32,199 --> 01:07:38,320
strong cultural background, Yeah, that he had to walk away

1208
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:40,440
from yeah, to be with her.

1209
01:07:41,079 --> 01:07:45,480
Speaker 3: But instead he comes from generic wasp people who have

1210
01:07:45,519 --> 01:07:46,320
no culture.

1211
01:07:46,239 --> 01:07:47,800
Speaker 4: It's a blank kindness they have.

1212
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:52,239
Speaker 3: They have internalized epluribus unum to the point that they

1213
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:54,079
have no identity they have.

1214
01:07:54,199 --> 01:07:59,079
Speaker 4: Yeah, they have assimilated to nothingness, which.

1215
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:01,599
Speaker 3: Is what Gus is afraid of. True, which is fair,

1216
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:05,760
but the Yeah, it's what makes this I think, as

1217
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:09,400
with any I ran comm It makes it a examination

1218
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:14,880
of a fun reality to imagine that there is such

1219
01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:19,239
a human out there that is so completely into you

1220
01:08:19,319 --> 01:08:20,920
that they're willing to just be like, yeah, I don't

1221
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:23,279
have anything I feel strongly about anyway, so whatever you want,

1222
01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:24,239
or even just.

1223
01:08:24,159 --> 01:08:27,800
Speaker 4: That this is her first relationship, because the other part

1224
01:08:27,880 --> 01:08:31,560
of this, the other outcome of enmeshment, is that it

1225
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:34,359
would be much more likely that she would end up

1226
01:08:34,399 --> 01:08:37,439
in a relationship where there's someone who exhibits a lot

1227
01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:38,640
of control.

1228
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:42,640
Speaker 2: She would be way more fucking likely to end up

1229
01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:46,159
in that kind of relationship because that is the kind

1230
01:08:46,199 --> 01:08:50,239
of relationship that has been glorified in her family yep.

1231
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:56,079
Versus being able to accept Ian's love and Ian's thoughtfulness

1232
01:08:56,119 --> 01:09:00,239
and Ian's kindness. That is, that is the miraculous part

1233
01:09:00,319 --> 01:09:02,640
of this fucking movie, which is the fact that she

1234
01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:08,199
is able to accept openly and lovingly everything for me Ian,

1235
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:12,560
instead of her feeling so self conscious that she can't

1236
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:18,399
even yes, consider that Ian would be in love with

1237
01:09:18,439 --> 01:09:21,720
her and actually mean it. Yeah, Like in a more

1238
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:24,560
realistic version of the story, she would self sabotage with

1239
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:28,119
him probably yeah, or really want to or do a

1240
01:09:28,199 --> 01:09:32,319
lot of like reassurance seeking stuff of like, but you

1241
01:09:32,359 --> 01:09:33,039
really like me.

1242
01:09:34,039 --> 01:09:36,079
Speaker 4: You do think I'm attractive, you know what I mean?

1243
01:09:36,359 --> 01:09:40,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, and and yeah, you're exactly right, Like I think.

1244
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:41,760
Speaker 4: What is so.

1245
01:09:43,279 --> 01:09:46,159
Speaker 1: Like the dark, dark, dark underbelly of this kind of

1246
01:09:46,159 --> 01:09:52,159
family system is that what you are encouraging without really

1247
01:09:52,239 --> 01:09:57,560
realizing it, is like obedience and loyalty for good or

1248
01:09:57,560 --> 01:10:02,520
her bad. Yeah, and you just are assuming that that

1249
01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:06,159
will always be a positive thing when in actuality, someone

1250
01:10:06,199 --> 01:10:11,560
like Tula is more ripe to be sought after by

1251
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:14,560
someone who will take advantage of that obedience and that loyalty.

1252
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:17,199
Speaker 3: You mean, like all those guys that her family brought

1253
01:10:17,199 --> 01:10:19,199
in as acceptable Greek men for her to date.

1254
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:22,039
Speaker 4: Oh my god, what a nightmare.

1255
01:10:22,279 --> 01:10:24,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, just like people that will take advantage of her.

1256
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:27,479
They were all so much older than her, which is

1257
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:30,840
so gross. And there's only one that was maybe age appropriate.

1258
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:32,560
He was a fucking slime ball.

1259
01:10:35,119 --> 01:10:41,600
Speaker 3: I would like to see that six figure a pathological

1260
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:47,000
slime ball as defined by the following criteria.

1261
01:10:47,359 --> 01:10:52,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because that's what happens when you raise a

1262
01:10:52,199 --> 01:10:55,640
child to not think for themselves. Is that than anyone

1263
01:10:55,720 --> 01:11:00,319
can be their leader, anyone can be their star.

1264
01:11:00,399 --> 01:11:01,840
Speaker 4: If you will.

1265
01:11:01,920 --> 01:11:05,520
Speaker 1: And what is like really just also miraculous about Tula

1266
01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:08,720
is she has enough like a little spark of resilience

1267
01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:12,159
within her, an actual confidence within her of like I

1268
01:11:12,199 --> 01:11:14,000
can sort of do my own thing, like even though

1269
01:11:14,039 --> 01:11:16,840
no one's encouraging me to, even if it's doing my

1270
01:11:16,880 --> 01:11:18,600
own thing in the travel agency.

1271
01:11:19,039 --> 01:11:20,199
Speaker 4: She's doing her own thing.

1272
01:11:20,680 --> 01:11:23,199
Speaker 1: When Ian comes across her as much as she thinks

1273
01:11:23,239 --> 01:11:27,000
she can do her own thing, and they're very She's

1274
01:11:27,159 --> 01:11:30,039
very lucky. The family is also very lucky that Ian

1275
01:11:30,159 --> 01:11:33,319
is so nice, you know, because I feel like with

1276
01:11:33,439 --> 01:11:34,960
if I work with someone like Tula in real life,

1277
01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:39,600
which I'll talk about treatment, like she would need a

1278
01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:42,560
lot of help navigating like the red flags. Like it's

1279
01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:48,239
just a lot of like normalizing red flags in relationships. Yes, romantically, yes,

1280
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:50,079
like it's okay for your husband to tell you what

1281
01:11:50,159 --> 01:11:52,359
to do or your boyfriend tell you what to do.

1282
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:54,760
You know, you just need to look cute and you

1283
01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:55,199
just need.

1284
01:11:55,079 --> 01:11:57,600
Speaker 4: To figure out how to like work him if you can,

1285
01:11:58,479 --> 01:12:00,159
or you should just be really grateful of that he

1286
01:12:00,239 --> 01:12:03,000
wants anything to do with you, And what a relief

1287
01:12:03,399 --> 01:12:07,159
that you're getting married? Who cares? Who would say anything.

1288
01:12:07,039 --> 01:12:08,640
Speaker 1: As long as it's a nice Greek boy, even if

1289
01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:12,119
he even sees like a piece of shit, And so

1290
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:15,800
those messages that said sense of Tula is so dangerous

1291
01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:21,159
and there is a horror movie version of this story.

1292
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:26,840
Absolutely you should write it. I'm sure it probably exists. Actually, well,

1293
01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:29,319
it's like how people in these kind of like people

1294
01:12:29,319 --> 01:12:31,640
who leave cults and stuff like that, like people who

1295
01:12:31,680 --> 01:12:35,560
go from like one situation like this right to another,

1296
01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:38,239
which I'm sure has happened a lot in this family system,

1297
01:12:38,279 --> 01:12:41,640
which is you know, you go from your parents to

1298
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:45,479
your spouse's house with no one between, to be an

1299
01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:48,520
actualized person and to practice boundaries because then for someone

1300
01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:51,960
like Tula, you don't build any like specific as a woman,

1301
01:12:52,279 --> 01:12:55,159
you don't build any agency. So that if Ian ended

1302
01:12:55,239 --> 01:12:59,399
up being like a bad guy abusive, how should.

1303
01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:01,039
Speaker 3: I know what ther story version of this is? And

1304
01:13:01,079 --> 01:13:01,880
you're gonna get mad at me.

1305
01:13:02,119 --> 01:13:06,520
Speaker 4: Is it a Batman reference? No, you gotta try to

1306
01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:09,119
make it one right now, like Harley Quinn.

1307
01:13:09,479 --> 01:13:16,800
Speaker 3: It's Harley Quinn. Yes, I guess at first, and it's

1308
01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:18,720
it is scary and it is dangerous. And you look

1309
01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:23,199
at the the way that this story plays out as

1310
01:13:23,239 --> 01:13:23,960
such a fantasy.

1311
01:13:24,239 --> 01:13:27,760
Speaker 1: But I think with Tula situation is you know, she's

1312
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:31,800
rife to be financially abused, Yeah, to be abused period.

1313
01:13:32,199 --> 01:13:34,359
And then depending on how their family feels about divorce,

1314
01:13:36,039 --> 01:13:38,039
if she needed to leave him, what her family take

1315
01:13:38,039 --> 01:13:40,439
her back? I think this family would, especially if something

1316
01:13:40,439 --> 01:13:41,520
really bad was happening to her.

1317
01:13:45,279 --> 01:13:50,079
Speaker 3: No no, no, no, no, no believe you're talking about like

1318
01:13:50,199 --> 01:13:53,800
foundationally against God too far, too far? Nope.

1319
01:13:54,479 --> 01:13:57,920
Speaker 1: Probably get encouraged to stay with your husband, Yeah, for sure.

1320
01:13:58,479 --> 01:14:00,800
Speaker 3: Yet no, people people get cast st out of families

1321
01:14:01,239 --> 01:14:03,359
for for divorce sometimes yeah.

1322
01:14:03,239 --> 01:14:05,399
Speaker 2: No, no, no.

1323
01:14:04,119 --> 01:14:08,000
Speaker 3: No, nope, yeah, too far. We don't know that.

1324
01:14:08,199 --> 01:14:10,159
Speaker 1: Well, I guess I'm I. I'm sticking with the tone

1325
01:14:10,159 --> 01:14:14,720
of this movie, which is very disney Ish, So you

1326
01:14:14,720 --> 01:14:16,760
wouldn't want to think that would happen with this family,

1327
01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:17,600
but who knows.

1328
01:14:17,960 --> 01:14:22,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, some my friends who are of this culture of

1329
01:14:22,800 --> 01:14:29,600
no no no, no, yeah no no, but things, things

1330
01:14:29,640 --> 01:14:34,239
against the church are bigger than you, like, yeah, god, God,

1331
01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:37,279
that's a you know kind of a thing that it's

1332
01:14:37,279 --> 01:14:42,079
in this movie pretty pretty clearly laid out that the

1333
01:14:42,119 --> 01:14:45,520
family is not going to tolerate what is against what

1334
01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:50,479
they're supposed to do. In the eyes of the religion.

1335
01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:56,079
So no, but the like the difficult spots that that

1336
01:14:56,119 --> 01:14:58,880
puts her in, and like the lack of actually arming

1337
01:14:58,880 --> 01:15:01,239
your child against the world and selling them on this

1338
01:15:01,399 --> 01:15:04,640
idea that well, the truth we've been telling you is

1339
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:07,479
the whole truth. That is the danger The truth we've

1340
01:15:07,479 --> 01:15:09,720
been telling you is the whole truth, even though it's

1341
01:15:09,720 --> 01:15:12,279
not and we all know it's not. But if you

1342
01:15:12,319 --> 01:15:14,159
do it correctly, you'll be living in the whole truth

1343
01:15:14,159 --> 01:15:17,520
we've told you exists, even though we know it doesn't exist. Yeah,

1344
01:15:18,239 --> 01:15:19,600
it's dangerous.

1345
01:15:19,359 --> 01:15:19,880
Speaker 4: And it's the way.

1346
01:15:19,880 --> 01:15:24,039
Speaker 1: Also, they think that the older generation projects wisdom onto

1347
01:15:24,079 --> 01:15:29,600
the younger generation, like you don't know, like you don't

1348
01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:32,920
know what they don't know about life, especially in these

1349
01:15:32,960 --> 01:15:35,399
situations where maybe you immigrant from other country. There might

1350
01:15:35,399 --> 01:15:39,000
be like street smarts, common sense stuff like things that

1351
01:15:39,039 --> 01:15:45,039
you've learned through trauma. Unfortunately that your kid doesn't have necessarily.

1352
01:15:45,079 --> 01:15:47,560
Speaker 3: And doesn't pertain to their reality because the factors that

1353
01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:52,680
made that relevant information for you don't exist, don't exist anymore.

1354
01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:53,039
Speaker 4: M hm.

1355
01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:58,880
Speaker 3: And the other thing that ignores is one of my

1356
01:15:59,319 --> 01:16:03,359
professors here to put it this way, in my think

1357
01:16:03,399 --> 01:16:06,720
psychology of learning, classroom development something in undergrad of like,

1358
01:16:07,359 --> 01:16:09,199
have you ever asked yourself why you yell like your

1359
01:16:09,239 --> 01:16:13,159
dad when you get mad and you sit there andre like, fuck,

1360
01:16:13,960 --> 01:16:18,239
where's this going on? Like this, and it's you haven't

1361
01:16:18,319 --> 01:16:21,479
just learned good things? Yeah, he learned everything from your parents.

1362
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:25,239
You learned everything. You learned how to win when you

1363
01:16:25,319 --> 01:16:30,039
have the power and lo and behold, you will mimic

1364
01:16:30,079 --> 01:16:33,479
that shit when you have the power and need to

1365
01:16:33,520 --> 01:16:35,920
win and don't feel like explaining yourself because it's exhausting,

1366
01:16:36,399 --> 01:16:38,399
and you will use that power in a negative way

1367
01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:41,479
to win the same way you saw it demonstrated, whether

1368
01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:44,600
it was used against you or used against your siblings

1369
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:46,800
or your mom or whoever, but you will have seen

1370
01:16:46,840 --> 01:16:51,279
it and internalized it. And people who are holding people

1371
01:16:51,319 --> 01:16:53,960
to the standards of a culture like this, not like

1372
01:16:54,079 --> 01:16:56,199
of Greek but like it's being shown in this movie,

1373
01:16:56,800 --> 01:17:00,000
we see it generally work out. But there are lots

1374
01:17:00,199 --> 01:17:02,279
of examples that I think we're like alluding to where

1375
01:17:03,359 --> 01:17:06,279
trying to hold someone to standards that aren't exist, that

1376
01:17:06,359 --> 01:17:10,279
don't exist, that aren't real, create a narrative inside of

1377
01:17:10,319 --> 01:17:13,039
them that they have to do it that way in

1378
01:17:13,159 --> 01:17:16,119
order to be good enough, but they also realize that

1379
01:17:16,199 --> 01:17:19,800
they can't, and that creates traps for them because now

1380
01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:23,079
they can't be good enough and they can't be accepted

1381
01:17:23,159 --> 01:17:26,560
if they aren't, so then they have to keep secrets

1382
01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:29,640
and they have to hide things. Fortunately, in this movie

1383
01:17:29,680 --> 01:17:32,079
we see the other side of it, where oh no,

1384
01:17:32,279 --> 01:17:34,920
the person who I chose is actually just genuinely like

1385
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:37,000
the nicest human that exists.

1386
01:17:36,640 --> 01:17:39,479
Speaker 4: The nice understanding, rolls with it.

1387
01:17:40,239 --> 01:17:43,159
Speaker 3: And it has like no qualms about nothing.

1388
01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:46,399
Speaker 2: And he's I mean, even when his friend brings it

1389
01:17:46,479 --> 01:17:49,439
up to him, like wow, like you're really like all

1390
01:17:49,479 --> 01:17:52,800
in with this girl. And he's like, she asks how

1391
01:17:52,920 --> 01:17:55,760
high for you to jump in me? And in his response,

1392
01:17:55,800 --> 01:18:00,760
Ian literally jumps. He's like yeah, and that's it, And

1393
01:18:00,800 --> 01:18:03,640
that's a whole conversation. They don't talk about it anymore.

1394
01:18:04,039 --> 01:18:07,000
He's just like, Yep, that's what I'm doing. No, no

1395
01:18:07,079 --> 01:18:08,399
big deal, no sweat.

1396
01:18:08,920 --> 01:18:09,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1397
01:18:09,600 --> 01:18:12,520
Speaker 1: And she's like I said, she's very very lucky. Going

1398
01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:15,000
back to what you're saying, Ben about learning that he

1399
01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:19,079
can teach her these things that she did not learn

1400
01:18:19,159 --> 01:18:22,840
from her parents, and he like is teaching her about

1401
01:18:22,840 --> 01:18:29,039
communication and about like all these adult relationship things and

1402
01:18:29,079 --> 01:18:30,840
he's willing to take the time to teach it to

1403
01:18:30,880 --> 01:18:33,760
her too, and he doesn't judge her for not knowing either.

1404
01:18:34,159 --> 01:18:35,880
Speaker 3: He is a teacher, so that's probably.

1405
01:18:37,479 --> 01:18:37,920
Speaker 2: True.

1406
01:18:38,119 --> 01:18:42,439
Speaker 1: So he probably does have more patience and like understanding

1407
01:18:42,479 --> 01:18:45,359
and like flexibility around these things.

1408
01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:49,720
Speaker 3: And he seems quite intellectual and worldly, and so he's

1409
01:18:49,960 --> 01:18:53,800
probably aware of what it takes to because he'sn't a

1410
01:18:53,920 --> 01:18:55,319
history teacher or English teacher.

1411
01:18:55,520 --> 01:18:56,199
Speaker 4: I can't remember.

1412
01:18:57,239 --> 01:18:59,279
Speaker 3: He's something one of the history teachers.

1413
01:18:59,279 --> 01:19:00,560
Speaker 4: He's a high school each other.

1414
01:19:00,479 --> 01:19:03,239
Speaker 3: Right, He's just he's like English, he was teaching about books.

1415
01:19:03,720 --> 01:19:06,439
Speaker 2: Does he show up at his job, Yes, yes, she does.

1416
01:19:07,640 --> 01:19:11,079
She shows up at his job and wants to elope and.

1417
01:19:11,159 --> 01:19:12,720
Speaker 3: Is making out with him pretty much in the hallway

1418
01:19:12,760 --> 01:19:15,039
of a high school. Mm. Which you know, it's always

1419
01:19:15,079 --> 01:19:15,560
a good idea.

1420
01:19:15,800 --> 01:19:18,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, because she's a teenager.

1421
01:19:19,239 --> 01:19:19,560
Speaker 1: M M.

1422
01:19:20,159 --> 01:19:24,399
Speaker 3: Because she's a teenager. But the the thing of recognizing

1423
01:19:24,479 --> 01:19:27,520
that he is an adult who's coming from a standpoint

1424
01:19:27,600 --> 01:19:33,000
of adaptive, comfortable learning that's not in a position of

1425
01:19:33,039 --> 01:19:37,119
taking advantage of these things, because he's seeing that I'm

1426
01:19:37,159 --> 01:19:38,680
secure in what I'm going to do and who I'm

1427
01:19:38,680 --> 01:19:40,880
going to be, and we're going to be okay, and

1428
01:19:41,000 --> 01:19:43,479
I'll do if that's what your family needs me to do,

1429
01:19:43,600 --> 01:19:47,199
that's cool. I'll go to the i'll convert, I'll do

1430
01:19:47,279 --> 01:19:50,159
whatever it takes to make it easy for us to

1431
01:19:50,239 --> 01:19:51,920
have our life. I will pave the way. But not

1432
01:19:51,960 --> 01:19:54,199
every human will do that. Some people will be bound

1433
01:19:54,199 --> 01:19:57,720
by their own cultural needs to say, like I can

1434
01:19:57,760 --> 01:20:00,520
marry you, but we are not Catholic. Well you are

1435
01:20:00,560 --> 01:20:01,800
not going to be Greek Orthodox.

1436
01:20:02,359 --> 01:20:06,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a great demonstration of non toxic masculinity. He

1437
01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:09,560
does not get caught up in his ego. But he's

1438
01:20:09,600 --> 01:20:11,720
also not like I guess what you'd call a pussy.

1439
01:20:12,199 --> 01:20:14,039
Like we said, like with the scene with the dad,

1440
01:20:14,199 --> 01:20:17,119
he doesn't let the dad rail rode him. He says,

1441
01:20:17,359 --> 01:20:20,079
you know what, I'm not going to do this anymore.

1442
01:20:20,479 --> 01:20:21,560
Speaker 4: So I think he says.

1443
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:24,840
Speaker 2: I think he says to the dad, you're but she's

1444
01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:27,600
thirty years old. I think that's what he says. And

1445
01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:29,960
then he walks by him, Yeah, and goes into the

1446
01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:31,159
room and says that to Tula.

1447
01:20:31,399 --> 01:20:32,880
Speaker 1: But so, like what I mean is like he is

1448
01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:39,279
a strong person. He is, you know, very confident, assured

1449
01:20:39,279 --> 01:20:42,600
of himself. Like he's all these very positive qualities without

1450
01:20:42,640 --> 01:20:45,319
getting caught up in the ego shit that would make

1451
01:20:45,359 --> 01:20:46,960
this relationship really difficult too.

1452
01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:50,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And I think from the relationship with his

1453
01:20:50,600 --> 01:20:53,279
parents that he has and who they are portrayed to be,

1454
01:20:53,359 --> 01:20:55,920
it's real clear that he doesn't have anything and he's

1455
01:20:55,960 --> 01:21:02,079
particularly strongly tied to or required to do than like Satan.

1456
01:21:03,119 --> 01:21:04,239
Speaker 4: He's a classic wasp.

1457
01:21:04,720 --> 01:21:05,159
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1458
01:21:05,199 --> 01:21:07,680
Speaker 1: Well, let's take another break here and be back with treatment.

1459
01:21:09,319 --> 01:21:11,560
So who would like to take it first? With treatment?

1460
01:21:11,680 --> 01:21:12,359
Should we go to you?

1461
01:21:12,479 --> 01:21:17,720
Speaker 4: Hannah? Sure, I'd love to go first. That sounds the

1462
01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:20,760
most true clenching or a butthole so hard I'm not

1463
01:21:20,920 --> 01:21:29,279
at all has never been there. Yeah, okay, sure, are

1464
01:21:29,319 --> 01:21:30,119
we recording right now?

1465
01:21:30,199 --> 01:21:34,600
Speaker 3: Yes, that's great.

1466
01:21:34,960 --> 01:21:39,840
Speaker 4: Anyway, I'll talk about treatment. That's cool. So I would treat.

1467
01:21:40,640 --> 01:21:43,119
Speaker 2: I thought about Tula and Ian in terms of the

1468
01:21:43,199 --> 01:21:46,079
longevity of their relationship, and there were some things that

1469
01:21:46,119 --> 01:21:49,520
I think would pop up with them that as a

1470
01:21:49,680 --> 01:21:51,680
couple's therapists, I think I would be able to help

1471
01:21:51,720 --> 01:21:53,880
them with. And so some of the things that I

1472
01:21:53,920 --> 01:21:55,439
thought that they might struggle with.

1473
01:21:56,239 --> 01:21:56,920
Speaker 4: One is.

1474
01:21:58,520 --> 01:22:04,000
Speaker 2: Actual compromises that they'll have to make, you know, something

1475
01:22:04,079 --> 01:22:08,680
that something that I tell clients about compromises, is that

1476
01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:13,479
we compromise about what kind of food to eat or

1477
01:22:13,520 --> 01:22:18,560
what movie to watch. We don't compromise ourselves in any

1478
01:22:18,640 --> 01:22:25,079
kind of way. And I think that because Ian in

1479
01:22:25,159 --> 01:22:27,960
this first experience that we've been shown, has been so

1480
01:22:28,159 --> 01:22:34,039
flexible and so accepting and just all of the good things,

1481
01:22:34,760 --> 01:22:39,680
that when there is something that he actually cares about

1482
01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:43,800
or has some feelings about, that, I wonder if compromise

1483
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:46,279
would be trickier because Tula is kind of used to

1484
01:22:47,039 --> 01:22:50,720
him just accepting something, So I feel like compromise because

1485
01:22:50,720 --> 01:22:55,199
compromise is a part of a relationship's longevity period.

1486
01:22:55,840 --> 01:22:56,680
Speaker 4: So I think that.

1487
01:22:56,520 --> 01:22:58,640
Speaker 2: That would be something that might be tricky for them.

1488
01:22:59,159 --> 01:23:03,920
I also think continuing with family involvement, I would imagine

1489
01:23:03,920 --> 01:23:07,359
the family involvement and I have seen the second movie,

1490
01:23:07,720 --> 01:23:10,399
but I barely remember it, and I haven't seen the

1491
01:23:10,399 --> 01:23:10,880
third one.

1492
01:23:11,000 --> 01:23:12,640
Speaker 3: I don't think it.

1493
01:23:12,680 --> 01:23:15,000
Speaker 4: Just came out like two years ago. I don't know,

1494
01:23:15,159 --> 01:23:18,880
I don't remember. But I think that would be something

1495
01:23:18,920 --> 01:23:21,720
that they would struggle with once they have a kid.

1496
01:23:21,800 --> 01:23:24,399
Speaker 2: Once they have a kid, Once they have a kid,

1497
01:23:24,479 --> 01:23:29,560
the expectations and obligations in the family change would change again. Right,

1498
01:23:30,000 --> 01:23:31,960
and so clearly at the end of the film we

1499
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:35,239
see that her little girl has to go to Greek school,

1500
01:23:35,640 --> 01:23:39,520
and so I feel like, even in that, I wonder

1501
01:23:39,560 --> 01:23:41,840
if that's just something that Ian's just going along with,

1502
01:23:42,199 --> 01:23:44,439
or is that's something that they discussed about why they

1503
01:23:44,479 --> 01:23:47,359
wanted her to go. So I think that they might

1504
01:23:47,439 --> 01:23:54,920
have to learn how to have our successful arguments and

1505
01:23:55,000 --> 01:24:03,279
be able to have compromises that feel equable. And then

1506
01:24:03,319 --> 01:24:05,640
I also think, and like I said already, the family

1507
01:24:05,720 --> 01:24:09,119
involvement and so them really having to continue to talk

1508
01:24:09,119 --> 01:24:11,880
about how much do we want to let your family

1509
01:24:12,039 --> 01:24:17,479
into your family, into our starting our own family traditions.

1510
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:20,319
A lot of times when you have children, people want

1511
01:24:20,359 --> 01:24:22,960
to have their own family traditions with their new little

1512
01:24:23,000 --> 01:24:25,720
family for lots of different reasons, and it makes a

1513
01:24:25,760 --> 01:24:27,800
lot of sense. They want to have something that's theirs,

1514
01:24:28,119 --> 01:24:30,319
they want to have a certain way that they do something,

1515
01:24:30,720 --> 01:24:33,640
and so again there would have to be compromised there,

1516
01:24:33,640 --> 01:24:36,399
and that would be really interesting to see how the

1517
01:24:36,439 --> 01:24:40,439
family involvement feels when they have a child.

1518
01:24:42,479 --> 01:24:44,239
Speaker 4: So I feel like those would be the two things

1519
01:24:44,239 --> 01:24:45,319
that they would struggle with.

1520
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:48,319
Speaker 2: I feel like the way that I would help them

1521
01:24:48,720 --> 01:24:51,600
is to really just talk about how important communication is,

1522
01:24:52,119 --> 01:24:54,880
how important it is to really share how you're feeling,

1523
01:24:55,319 --> 01:24:58,159
to not hold on to something and wait until it

1524
01:24:58,199 --> 01:25:03,319
blows up, because when it blows up, then nobody's gonna

1525
01:25:03,359 --> 01:25:05,439
hear shit and you're not going to be able to

1526
01:25:05,439 --> 01:25:10,199
get a solution because it's all going to be about

1527
01:25:10,199 --> 01:25:13,840
how you make each other feel, because they're going to

1528
01:25:13,920 --> 01:25:17,039
be so in your feelings when you blow up. I

1529
01:25:17,079 --> 01:25:19,760
feel like I would also want to talk to them

1530
01:25:19,800 --> 01:25:23,840
about and also just talking about family involvement, talking to

1531
01:25:23,880 --> 01:25:26,520
them about boundaries. What are good boundaries you want to

1532
01:25:26,520 --> 01:25:28,720
set with the family, What are boundaries you want to

1533
01:25:28,760 --> 01:25:31,359
have for your own family, What are boundaries you each

1534
01:25:31,399 --> 01:25:34,720
need to have individually, right, Because again I think Tula

1535
01:25:34,800 --> 01:25:37,640
is pretty new to all of this, and so she

1536
01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:41,119
would really have to learn how to have boundaries with

1537
01:25:41,239 --> 01:25:43,560
her family. And this is something that I see couples

1538
01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:46,520
about in a regular basis. It is a regular thing

1539
01:25:46,640 --> 01:25:48,880
to see a couple because they are not getting along

1540
01:25:48,880 --> 01:25:51,359
with the in laws. That is a regular reason to

1541
01:25:51,399 --> 01:25:54,640
see people. And so I do a lot of work

1542
01:25:54,680 --> 01:25:59,560
with people about how do we create this, how do

1543
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:02,319
we create your family? And what are the boundaries your

1544
01:26:02,359 --> 01:26:06,680
family wants to have, and so that's how I think

1545
01:26:06,720 --> 01:26:08,319
I would help them. Those are the problems I think

1546
01:26:08,319 --> 01:26:08,840
they would have.

1547
01:26:09,560 --> 01:26:13,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, how are your parents able to just come

1548
01:26:13,840 --> 01:26:15,199
into our house without knocking?

1549
01:26:15,319 --> 01:26:18,239
Speaker 4: I mean they live right next door. I mean that's

1550
01:26:18,279 --> 01:26:20,520
a boundary. That's a boundary we'd have to talk about.

1551
01:26:20,600 --> 01:26:23,880
Are we never allowed to move from this house? Yeah?

1552
01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:30,239
Speaker 3: This tiny little house, which is an excellent starter house gift, however,

1553
01:26:32,439 --> 01:26:37,239
might not be suitable once we have more than a toddler.

1554
01:26:37,760 --> 01:26:40,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and how is that going to impact the family

1555
01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:44,399
when that was the wedding gift that they got? So again,

1556
01:26:44,560 --> 01:26:46,319
is that gonna be something where Gus is like, why

1557
01:26:46,359 --> 01:26:49,760
are you disrespecting me? Right, there's all kinds of different

1558
01:26:49,800 --> 01:26:50,520
things could happen.

1559
01:26:50,600 --> 01:26:52,279
Speaker 3: I mean, you just need to build it up, like.

1560
01:26:52,720 --> 01:26:56,800
Speaker 4: You know, keep building additions to it like the Burrow

1561
01:26:56,960 --> 01:26:58,760
and Harry Potter exactly.

1562
01:27:00,880 --> 01:27:04,079
Speaker 1: Anything else, Hannah, No, No, that's all I got. All right,

1563
01:27:04,640 --> 01:27:07,399
I can go next then and just piggyback on you.

1564
01:27:07,960 --> 01:27:12,119
In that, I was thinking about working with Tula more

1565
01:27:12,600 --> 01:27:19,720
irl version of Tula, maybe even like meeting Ian or

1566
01:27:19,760 --> 01:27:22,840
starting to meet Ian, like starting to date Ian. In

1567
01:27:23,960 --> 01:27:26,840
that this assumption that she'll know how to do everything.

1568
01:27:27,720 --> 01:27:29,880
And sometimes my job as a therapist when I work

1569
01:27:29,920 --> 01:27:32,359
with someone who is maybe like a late bloomer or

1570
01:27:32,479 --> 01:27:34,760
has a lot of confidence issues, or someone in Mesh

1571
01:27:34,880 --> 01:27:38,439
family is that part of my job one you have

1572
01:27:38,479 --> 01:27:40,479
to be very careful as a therapist that you don't

1573
01:27:40,520 --> 01:27:42,359
become a replacement for that dynamic.

1574
01:27:43,079 --> 01:27:44,279
Speaker 4: Like I have to be very.

1575
01:27:44,119 --> 01:27:46,039
Speaker 1: Careful with clients I work with that have in Mesh

1576
01:27:46,079 --> 01:27:50,279
family systems that I don't give them that they don't

1577
01:27:50,319 --> 01:27:54,279
think I'm giving them directive advice that I'm telling them

1578
01:27:54,279 --> 01:27:57,159
what to do. Basically, these are clients where I'm have

1579
01:27:57,399 --> 01:28:00,560
my foot off the pedal a lot more in terms

1580
01:28:00,560 --> 01:28:03,479
of like direct feedback about that kind of thing, because

1581
01:28:03,520 --> 01:28:06,159
I want them to learn how to listen to themselves,

1582
01:28:07,399 --> 01:28:09,279
and I don't want to be just another authority figure

1583
01:28:09,479 --> 01:28:12,760
in their mind that they go to to know what

1584
01:28:12,840 --> 01:28:16,279
to do. Like I have to tweak my style a

1585
01:28:16,279 --> 01:28:19,000
little bit with clients who come from this family system,

1586
01:28:20,239 --> 01:28:23,760
And I think part of what my job too is

1587
01:28:23,800 --> 01:28:28,479
trying to find that fine line between respecting their family

1588
01:28:28,600 --> 01:28:31,159
and the culture of their family, if that's a component

1589
01:28:31,199 --> 01:28:35,880
of it, and then also naming because that's a lot

1590
01:28:35,880 --> 01:28:38,000
of our job as therapists is like having that sort

1591
01:28:38,000 --> 01:28:44,479
of bird's eye view of like naming dynamics, situations, boundaries,

1592
01:28:44,560 --> 01:28:49,720
lack of boundaries that aren't quote unquote normal, that aren't healthy,

1593
01:28:50,560 --> 01:28:54,039
and how I determine that is how my client feels. So,

1594
01:28:54,199 --> 01:28:56,039
like I said, if my client was really close to

1595
01:28:56,039 --> 01:28:58,760
their family and it was all gravy and they genuinely

1596
01:28:58,760 --> 01:29:01,640
seemed very happy enough lifted by that or satisfied with it.

1597
01:29:02,039 --> 01:29:03,000
Speaker 4: I got no problems.

1598
01:29:03,359 --> 01:29:05,000
Speaker 1: You want to be up under your mom all day,

1599
01:29:05,039 --> 01:29:09,319
every day, and that makes you happy, godspeed. But if

1600
01:29:09,319 --> 01:29:13,439
you're saying like I can't tell my mom this because

1601
01:29:13,479 --> 01:29:16,000
if I tell her this, she'll have a heart attack,

1602
01:29:16,920 --> 01:29:20,520
and then I am so stressed out about that, or

1603
01:29:20,520 --> 01:29:22,359
I don't know how to have like how to say something,

1604
01:29:22,359 --> 01:29:25,279
how to like say I want something, And so then

1605
01:29:25,319 --> 01:29:27,119
my job as a therapist to be like, I understand

1606
01:29:27,159 --> 01:29:29,399
your family is a very close and it sounds like

1607
01:29:29,520 --> 01:29:33,960
you are engaging in more codependent behaviors, which is that

1608
01:29:34,119 --> 01:29:39,600
I can't have an independent persona and or if I

1609
01:29:39,680 --> 01:29:42,760
say something that makes you feel bad, I'm responsible for

1610
01:29:42,840 --> 01:29:45,760
you not feeling bad that like I can't have emotional

1611
01:29:45,800 --> 01:29:51,000
and emotional experience that is disconnected from your emotional experience,

1612
01:29:51,079 --> 01:29:55,720
like healthy detachment of like I can be upset, and

1613
01:29:56,960 --> 01:29:58,439
I can be upset at you for like a very

1614
01:29:58,520 --> 01:30:01,880
understandable reason, but I'm so responsible for managing my upsetness.

1615
01:30:02,119 --> 01:30:03,479
I don't want you to feel like you can't tell

1616
01:30:03,479 --> 01:30:06,960
me something because I'll be so upset and so like

1617
01:30:07,079 --> 01:30:08,680
and so a lot of times, what I'm teaching is

1618
01:30:08,760 --> 01:30:13,680
the difference between like enmeshed codependence versus interdependence, that you

1619
01:30:13,720 --> 01:30:16,600
can rely on other people, you can have a support system,

1620
01:30:16,680 --> 01:30:18,399
you can want to be close to people. You can

1621
01:30:18,479 --> 01:30:21,520
be close to people, and you can feel for them

1622
01:30:21,520 --> 01:30:24,880
as well, Like if my loved ones having a bad day,

1623
01:30:24,920 --> 01:30:28,000
I'll feel that I'll be like oof, like I'm worried

1624
01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:29,840
about them, or I'm really thinking about them, like I'll

1625
01:30:29,840 --> 01:30:31,960
feel I'll have a stress, I'll have a level of

1626
01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:37,159
stress because I love them, versus I can't feel better

1627
01:30:37,920 --> 01:30:42,239
until you feel better about whatever is upsetting you, And

1628
01:30:42,279 --> 01:30:44,920
so ironically, I will make your stress my problem.

1629
01:30:44,960 --> 01:30:47,640
Speaker 4: That becomes your problem, which I think it was more

1630
01:30:47,640 --> 01:30:52,359
of what happens in enmeshed relationships, codependent relationships and so

1631
01:30:52,479 --> 01:30:55,439
interdependent is trying to trying to like find that nuance

1632
01:30:55,439 --> 01:30:57,720
for the client, And sometimes I'll have to do like

1633
01:30:57,760 --> 01:31:00,439
a bit more self disclosure with those clients that I

1634
01:31:00,520 --> 01:31:02,880
might with other clients in terms of like this is

1635
01:31:02,880 --> 01:31:05,039
how my dynamic works with my close friends or with

1636
01:31:05,079 --> 01:31:07,479
my parents, or like I've had those kind of arguments

1637
01:31:07,479 --> 01:31:10,199
before and it went okay, you know you cause, like

1638
01:31:10,239 --> 01:31:12,399
you were saying, Ben, like they don't people don't know anything.

1639
01:31:12,439 --> 01:31:15,520
When we come into this world. Everything we learn we've

1640
01:31:15,520 --> 01:31:16,119
been taught.

1641
01:31:17,199 --> 01:31:19,439
Speaker 1: And so sometimes my job is to be a bit

1642
01:31:19,439 --> 01:31:23,359
more teachery with like examples like real life examples, which

1643
01:31:23,399 --> 01:31:27,640
is what self disclosure can be appropriately and guiding them

1644
01:31:27,760 --> 01:31:32,159
through the experiential experience that they're having with being an adult,

1645
01:31:33,159 --> 01:31:36,560
like finding your first relationship, are you going to tell

1646
01:31:36,560 --> 01:31:39,800
everybody in your family about it? So I think with Tula,

1647
01:31:39,920 --> 01:31:43,479
if she'd had a therapist and the secret keeping dating

1648
01:31:43,520 --> 01:31:45,920
Ian part of the movie, I think my job as

1649
01:31:45,960 --> 01:31:49,159
a therapist would be, like, let's find the nuance with this?

1650
01:31:49,239 --> 01:31:51,359
Do you have to keep them a secret? What would

1651
01:31:51,359 --> 01:31:52,960
it look like to tell your family a little bit

1652
01:31:53,279 --> 01:31:54,680
if they push on your boundy? Do you feel like

1653
01:31:54,720 --> 01:31:57,640
you can handle that, like trying to get her to

1654
01:31:57,760 --> 01:31:59,920
understand like there's a nuance to it versus like I

1655
01:32:00,039 --> 01:32:03,199
told them everything or I told them nothing. And then also,

1656
01:32:03,840 --> 01:32:06,000
which is son As my job is telling someone like Tula,

1657
01:32:06,640 --> 01:32:08,880
So if you want to try this out, you have

1658
01:32:08,960 --> 01:32:11,359
to sit in the discomfort of whatever reaction you get

1659
01:32:11,359 --> 01:32:14,680
from your parents, like I'll teach you, dear woman, dear man,

1660
01:32:15,079 --> 01:32:16,800
I'll teach you, I feel statements like I'll teach you

1661
01:32:16,840 --> 01:32:21,800
inter personal techniques that should help convey you clearly to

1662
01:32:21,880 --> 01:32:24,279
the person. But as they say, you can't communicate better

1663
01:32:24,279 --> 01:32:28,680
to someone who is committed to misunderstanding you. So if

1664
01:32:28,680 --> 01:32:31,119
your parents don't want to hear the message you're giving them,

1665
01:32:31,399 --> 01:32:33,239
there's no way you can send that message in a

1666
01:32:33,279 --> 01:32:36,680
way that will appease them. And so a lot of

1667
01:32:36,720 --> 01:32:38,760
times when I work in real life with these kind

1668
01:32:38,760 --> 01:32:41,039
of dynamics, I do have to also warn my client

1669
01:32:41,159 --> 01:32:45,239
that as you continue to try to self actualize, there

1670
01:32:45,359 --> 01:32:48,680
is the possibility that your family won't want to follow

1671
01:32:48,720 --> 01:32:51,279
with you, or they won't evolve with you or adapt

1672
01:32:51,319 --> 01:32:56,319
to you, and son As my job is to like

1673
01:32:56,439 --> 01:32:58,399
kind of hold their hand through that process too. If

1674
01:32:58,399 --> 01:33:02,920
that's what happens with Tula. If you were to share,

1675
01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:05,199
have you ever asked your mom to keep a secret,

1676
01:33:05,399 --> 01:33:08,119
not keep a secret, but to not tell dad? You know,

1677
01:33:08,600 --> 01:33:10,560
have you ever said, like lead with like this is

1678
01:33:10,560 --> 01:33:13,199
really important to me and it means a lot to

1679
01:33:13,199 --> 01:33:16,000
me if you would let me do if you would

1680
01:33:16,079 --> 01:33:19,079
accept this, Like, have you ever been concrete with him

1681
01:33:19,079 --> 01:33:22,359
about what you need? Because, like we've talked about, there's

1682
01:33:22,359 --> 01:33:24,920
so much passive communication in this family, so much game

1683
01:33:24,960 --> 01:33:27,720
playing too, feel like the men and the women that

1684
01:33:27,800 --> 01:33:31,079
I don't know if she's even knows how to, like forthrightly,

1685
01:33:31,680 --> 01:33:35,039
clearly assertively say to someone this is what's important to me,

1686
01:33:35,319 --> 01:33:37,319
this is how it makes me feel. This is what

1687
01:33:37,359 --> 01:33:40,399
I'm asking of you, and this is how you Adhering

1688
01:33:40,439 --> 01:33:42,439
to this ask would help us both, which is a

1689
01:33:42,520 --> 01:33:46,560
deer from deer man, and so I would really want

1690
01:33:46,600 --> 01:33:48,159
to encourage her to be able to like, how do

1691
01:33:48,199 --> 01:33:53,159
we communicate in a way that's appropriate and more middle

1692
01:33:53,199 --> 01:33:58,560
ground and defining the difference between interdependent and codependent, especially

1693
01:33:58,600 --> 01:34:01,560
as she's dating someone like ian Ord period, it's very

1694
01:34:01,600 --> 01:34:05,800
important for her to understand those differences. So that's what

1695
01:34:05,800 --> 01:34:07,800
I would do with Tula, just really trying to build

1696
01:34:07,800 --> 01:34:10,640
her up and give her a lot of skills. Should

1697
01:34:10,640 --> 01:34:12,199
be someone that would give a lot of skills to

1698
01:34:13,520 --> 01:34:16,800
and really be encouraging to her of doing a lot

1699
01:34:16,840 --> 01:34:19,680
of like pep talkie stuff too, because I think she

1700
01:34:19,720 --> 01:34:20,279
would need that.

1701
01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:21,119
Speaker 4: My job.

1702
01:34:21,199 --> 01:34:23,680
Speaker 1: My job would be kind of like a coach in

1703
01:34:23,720 --> 01:34:25,640
some ways, Benjamin.

1704
01:34:26,800 --> 01:34:30,960
Speaker 3: So, when I watched this movie, I was noticing how

1705
01:34:31,000 --> 01:34:38,239
many times Nick kept trying to get positive attention for

1706
01:34:38,399 --> 01:34:45,159
being himself for exactly the same things that Tula is

1707
01:34:45,199 --> 01:34:48,119
trying to do, and noticing how close those two actually were.

1708
01:34:48,560 --> 01:34:54,560
So I'm thinking that once the dynamic changed where she

1709
01:34:54,680 --> 01:35:01,439
started dating in some of their closeness started to naturally change.

1710
01:35:02,119 --> 01:35:04,840
Though they remain close and remains their supports for each other.

1711
01:35:05,680 --> 01:35:09,000
I think that Nick is going to start struggling a

1712
01:35:09,039 --> 01:35:11,640
lot because the family focus is going to turn from

1713
01:35:11,640 --> 01:35:17,439
Tula to him, and I think that him having some

1714
01:35:17,600 --> 01:35:21,640
opportunity to ride this wave of change, to find a

1715
01:35:21,680 --> 01:35:24,800
way to be validated for who he is and to

1716
01:35:24,880 --> 01:35:29,119
be seen as more than just the cook yeah yeah,

1717
01:35:29,279 --> 01:35:30,760
or whatever role it is that he does in the

1718
01:35:30,840 --> 01:35:32,720
kitchen of the family, because he just kind of like

1719
01:35:33,039 --> 01:35:35,800
he and the brother in law just kind of pop

1720
01:35:35,840 --> 01:35:37,720
their heads out of the kitchen and like, oh, hey,

1721
01:35:37,720 --> 01:35:40,800
I'm doing the thing, and then they're around. They're around,

1722
01:35:41,640 --> 01:35:43,520
and I know, like you said, it's not his story,

1723
01:35:43,600 --> 01:35:46,039
so he wasn't there to be a main character. But

1724
01:35:46,119 --> 01:35:49,359
they took enough care in the times we saw him

1725
01:35:49,399 --> 01:35:52,960
to see that there are things he wants that are

1726
01:35:53,039 --> 01:35:58,920
much more than this, and seeing Tula do those things

1727
01:35:59,279 --> 01:36:03,000
inspired him. It was a positive shift to the dynamic.

1728
01:36:03,199 --> 01:36:08,359
It's a paradigm shift, and every time that happens in

1729
01:36:08,359 --> 01:36:13,239
a family sometimes you have to continue to ride that

1730
01:36:13,319 --> 01:36:18,960
wave and move yourself forward once you've got any flexibility

1731
01:36:19,039 --> 01:36:21,720
with the conveyor belt that is the family system being

1732
01:36:21,760 --> 01:36:24,279
run by each of the cogs. Because now one cog

1733
01:36:24,319 --> 01:36:28,479
has been taken out, Tula is no longer functioning in

1734
01:36:28,479 --> 01:36:30,880
the system the way she used to. She is going

1735
01:36:30,920 --> 01:36:33,920
to be doing her own thing and forging her own family,

1736
01:36:34,000 --> 01:36:36,119
And while she will still be part of the family,

1737
01:36:36,920 --> 01:36:39,600
it's going to be different. Nick is going to struggle

1738
01:36:39,680 --> 01:36:42,199
with that. Nick is already struggling with his identity, so

1739
01:36:42,279 --> 01:36:47,000
I think working with him on having similar kind of

1740
01:36:47,000 --> 01:36:48,840
work that Brittany's going to work on with Tula, of

1741
01:36:49,399 --> 01:36:52,920
understanding Hey, at some point, we need to talk about

1742
01:36:52,960 --> 01:36:57,960
how you step into you, helping you become the you

1743
01:36:57,960 --> 01:37:00,920
you want to be, what is meaning full to you,

1744
01:37:01,359 --> 01:37:04,960
what helps you feel like you're living your purpose. And

1745
01:37:05,039 --> 01:37:08,920
it seems like he gets that encouragement, and the second

1746
01:37:09,039 --> 01:37:12,000
he gets it, he tells too that you know, I think,

1747
01:37:12,600 --> 01:37:14,239
I think I'm going to go to art school at night.

1748
01:37:15,119 --> 01:37:17,720
Maybe I won't tell Pap about it just yet, but

1749
01:37:19,199 --> 01:37:21,640
I think I think I'm going to do that too.

1750
01:37:23,159 --> 01:37:26,079
And he rides this transformative wave. But I think him

1751
01:37:26,119 --> 01:37:30,359
having an opportunity to process through whatever guilty has about that,

1752
01:37:31,479 --> 01:37:35,760
whatever in excitement he has about that, I think with him,

1753
01:37:35,800 --> 01:37:38,359
I would want to use motivational interviewing techniques more than

1754
01:37:38,399 --> 01:37:43,039
anything else, which are a really powerful way to help

1755
01:37:43,079 --> 01:37:49,079
people create change. Its specifically for substance abuse, but when

1756
01:37:49,119 --> 01:37:53,359
you examine change with people, you can recognize that they

1757
01:37:53,399 --> 01:37:59,680
get stuck on barriers all the time. Well, like, I

1758
01:37:59,760 --> 01:38:01,640
really want to do this, but I can't because of

1759
01:38:01,680 --> 01:38:04,720
like a thousand things, of which nine hundred and ninety

1760
01:38:04,720 --> 01:38:08,239
eight are not real, but the two that are really real,

1761
01:38:08,239 --> 01:38:10,800
and I mean, I can't deal with those. So I'm

1762
01:38:10,800 --> 01:38:14,439
gonna name nine hundred and ninety eight other things and

1763
01:38:14,520 --> 01:38:17,880
just call it a thousand, But it's only two things

1764
01:38:17,880 --> 01:38:21,520
really that are stopping me, and of those two, maybe

1765
01:38:21,560 --> 01:38:26,000
only one. But to successfully get someone to buy into

1766
01:38:26,159 --> 01:38:29,720
their own ability to change, you have to be able

1767
01:38:29,760 --> 01:38:35,199
to encourage them to navigate those barriers without looking at

1768
01:38:35,239 --> 01:38:38,239
them going Ooh, I see that barrier. It's really tall

1769
01:38:38,319 --> 01:38:42,800
and like nah, Whereas someone like Ian we see in

1770
01:38:42,840 --> 01:38:45,199
this movie is really well adjusted and he looks at barriers,

1771
01:38:45,239 --> 01:38:48,119
he goes, all right, there's a barrier. We're either gonna

1772
01:38:48,159 --> 01:38:51,520
jump over it, we're gonna go around it, we're gonna

1773
01:38:51,560 --> 01:38:53,039
go under it, We're gonna run smack through it. I

1774
01:38:53,039 --> 01:38:56,479
don't but I am committed to this. I'm committed to you,

1775
01:38:56,520 --> 01:38:59,840
and we're gonna go forward and boom and helping people

1776
01:39:00,079 --> 01:39:03,399
see that is how you create change. And I think

1777
01:39:03,479 --> 01:39:05,720
Nick really needs that. Nick needs to learn that that

1778
01:39:06,399 --> 01:39:09,079
you're trapped in a system that doesn't want to change,

1779
01:39:09,359 --> 01:39:13,199
but change has found it. Anyway, Dad can't do the

1780
01:39:13,199 --> 01:39:19,000
math anymore. His artwork and stuff are outdated. Restaurants need

1781
01:39:19,039 --> 01:39:21,760
to refresh their brand every so often. People need to

1782
01:39:21,760 --> 01:39:26,800
see new things, new looks, new things new. Uh, art,

1783
01:39:27,199 --> 01:39:30,239
new anything. You got to keep it fresh and modern

1784
01:39:30,600 --> 01:39:33,039
to keep people coming, or you'll have the same people

1785
01:39:33,039 --> 01:39:34,640
and they'll die out and they won't come anymore. They'll

1786
01:39:34,640 --> 01:39:37,600
move away attrition, but it we'll set in. Well. The

1787
01:39:37,640 --> 01:39:40,079
same thing happens in life all over and at some

1788
01:39:40,199 --> 01:39:43,039
point this generation that Nick and Tuller are part of

1789
01:39:43,039 --> 01:39:45,840
are going to have to step up and out into

1790
01:39:45,920 --> 01:39:48,840
control of the family system because the elders will age

1791
01:39:48,840 --> 01:39:52,199
out of being in touch with the world enough that

1792
01:39:52,239 --> 01:39:56,600
anyone believes what they say. Yeah, and it's already starting

1793
01:39:59,840 --> 01:40:01,880
to help Nick kind of actualize and be able to

1794
01:40:01,880 --> 01:40:03,479
be the person he wants to be. I would work

1795
01:40:03,479 --> 01:40:06,039
with him through understanding these are all barriers are going

1796
01:40:06,079 --> 01:40:08,840
to come up with. Dad's going to say no. Dad's

1797
01:40:08,880 --> 01:40:10,720
going to be on bullshit. Dad's going to base level

1798
01:40:10,800 --> 01:40:13,439
say no. But you can't take that first no. What

1799
01:40:13,479 --> 01:40:14,960
are you going to do when he says that first no?

1800
01:40:15,439 --> 01:40:18,640
What did you see Ian do? How did that change

1801
01:40:18,640 --> 01:40:22,880
the system? What a dula do? What would you like

1802
01:40:22,960 --> 01:40:25,479
to learn from that and kind of do in your way?

1803
01:40:25,600 --> 01:40:27,800
What would your way look like to respond to Dad's

1804
01:40:27,800 --> 01:40:30,600
no with a no, Dad, this needs to change. That

1805
01:40:30,640 --> 01:40:33,880
doesn't offend him that doesn't step outside of your cultural bounds.

1806
01:40:33,880 --> 01:40:37,640
Because of those thousand things, that is one of those

1807
01:40:37,640 --> 01:40:40,439
two that are real. That is the nine hundred and

1808
01:40:40,479 --> 01:40:42,199
ninety eight not so much, but that's one of the

1809
01:40:42,199 --> 01:40:44,840
two that's real. You're not going to do it, So

1810
01:40:44,880 --> 01:40:46,840
we have to respect that as the therapist, not push

1811
01:40:46,920 --> 01:40:50,359
him to go beyond what he can't do, but help him.

1812
01:40:50,399 --> 01:40:54,279
See what can you do to get somewhere closer to

1813
01:40:54,319 --> 01:40:55,960
where you want to go so you can generate enough

1814
01:40:56,000 --> 01:40:59,279
momentum that you don't need to push anymore. Your snowball

1815
01:40:59,279 --> 01:41:03,760
will just be rolling. That's what Tula did. Hell, that's

1816
01:41:03,760 --> 01:41:07,239
what your dad did when he left Greece. Yeah, I'm

1817
01:41:07,279 --> 01:41:09,920
sure he had somebody standing there frowning at him, going.

1818
01:41:11,159 --> 01:41:12,399
Speaker 4: You're gonna give up on grease?

1819
01:41:13,319 --> 01:41:16,680
Speaker 3: You're not in America? Yeah, what about the family?

1820
01:41:17,159 --> 01:41:17,479
Speaker 4: Mm hm.

1821
01:41:18,359 --> 01:41:22,600
Speaker 3: But at some point people need that encouragement, They need

1822
01:41:22,600 --> 01:41:24,960
some degree of game planning to overcome the real bearers

1823
01:41:25,000 --> 01:41:29,479
because the fear they have that they can't or the

1824
01:41:29,520 --> 01:41:32,119
messaging that they've gotten that becomes those core beliefs, becomes

1825
01:41:32,119 --> 01:41:36,840
so strong that they tell themselves no before the world does.

1826
01:41:37,159 --> 01:41:40,000
And it takes a lot of work with people understanding

1827
01:41:40,039 --> 01:41:43,279
the world's gonna tell you no plenty, don't be the

1828
01:41:43,279 --> 01:41:45,279
first one to do it. Let the world tell you.

1829
01:41:46,760 --> 01:41:48,760
And sometimes even when it does stick, one of those

1830
01:41:48,760 --> 01:41:52,359
big middle fingers up and say, nah, I'm just gonna

1831
01:41:52,359 --> 01:41:55,399
find another way. That's how I would work with Nick.

1832
01:41:55,399 --> 01:41:57,920
I think that's what he needs. He needs to feel seen, validated, heard,

1833
01:41:57,960 --> 01:42:00,279
and then empowered. And I think that would there was

1834
01:42:00,600 --> 01:42:03,960
a lot of positive change for him, and maybe he'd

1835
01:42:04,000 --> 01:42:06,640
be the next one getting married in a big fat

1836
01:42:06,680 --> 01:42:07,199
Greek wedding.

1837
01:42:08,720 --> 01:42:11,960
Speaker 1: I think with Tula and her brother need our friends

1838
01:42:12,880 --> 01:42:18,239
outside of the family as well. Yeah, yeah, anyway, we'll

1839
01:42:18,279 --> 01:42:20,760
take our last break care and me back with final thoughts.

1840
01:42:22,640 --> 01:42:26,159
Speaker 4: All right, Hannah, I'll put you on the spot. Sounds great.

1841
01:42:27,920 --> 01:42:30,479
I am never gonna watch this movie again.

1842
01:42:30,960 --> 01:42:31,159
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1843
01:42:32,279 --> 01:42:33,039
Speaker 4: I hated it.

1844
01:42:33,800 --> 01:42:37,000
Speaker 2: I hated rewatching it, even though I probably watched this

1845
01:42:37,079 --> 01:42:41,119
movie enough times to know the dialogue. Wow, I currently

1846
01:42:41,640 --> 01:42:44,960
have no interest in ever watching it again. It was

1847
01:42:45,800 --> 01:42:51,520
upsetting how much the just how much I just don't

1848
01:42:51,520 --> 01:42:54,600
need more any more reinforcement that women are less than

1849
01:42:54,680 --> 01:42:58,439
men in any kind of fucking way, and this movie

1850
01:42:58,560 --> 01:43:01,399
really had that in it. And it was very heavy

1851
01:43:01,399 --> 01:43:07,880
handed in a lot of different ways, and they Yeah,

1852
01:43:07,960 --> 01:43:10,800
So I don't like it, and I'm not gonna watch

1853
01:43:10,800 --> 01:43:11,359
it anymore.

1854
01:43:12,359 --> 01:43:16,239
Speaker 1: I think I have a more tepid final thought, which

1855
01:43:16,319 --> 01:43:17,920
is I have this is only the second time I

1856
01:43:17,960 --> 01:43:19,439
ever watched it. I think I saw it when I

1857
01:43:19,439 --> 01:43:21,760
first came out, and it was a phenomenon, So you

1858
01:43:21,840 --> 01:43:23,279
kind of had to watch this movie when I first

1859
01:43:23,359 --> 01:43:25,680
came out, and then this is the second time, so

1860
01:43:25,760 --> 01:43:31,399
like twenty years later, and it definitely has aged not

1861
01:43:31,760 --> 01:43:35,159
great in the in the stuff that you're talking about, Hannah,

1862
01:43:35,199 --> 01:43:40,840
Like all the really outrageous misogynistic parts are just so

1863
01:43:41,079 --> 01:43:44,840
loud now in a way that in a way that

1864
01:43:44,880 --> 01:43:49,039
they were cuter cuter quote unquote before, they're just like

1865
01:43:49,199 --> 01:43:52,239
very like hardcore now. And it made me feel so

1866
01:43:52,319 --> 01:43:55,720
bad for Tula, like it was hard to like her

1867
01:43:55,800 --> 01:43:59,039
and not hate her family. Yeah, and you're supposed to

1868
01:43:59,119 --> 01:44:01,560
love them all, and I think that worked in two

1869
01:44:01,560 --> 01:44:02,119
thousand and two.

1870
01:44:02,239 --> 01:44:03,600
Speaker 4: I don't think it works as well now.

1871
01:44:04,039 --> 01:44:06,800
Speaker 1: The way they're telling the story, which is very like

1872
01:44:06,840 --> 01:44:08,520
the tone of it I wasn't a big fan of

1873
01:44:09,359 --> 01:44:14,600
is very comedy, sit comedy kind of thing, and you

1874
01:44:14,640 --> 01:44:17,439
know spoiler for a future episode this season. The whole

1875
01:44:17,439 --> 01:44:19,960
time we were watching it, I just kept saying to Hannah, Oh,

1876
01:44:20,039 --> 01:44:24,079
Moonstruck does this better? Moonstruck does it better? Because Moonstruck

1877
01:44:24,119 --> 01:44:26,439
is a movie that touches a lot of these same ideas.

1878
01:44:26,520 --> 01:44:28,600
It's like a lot of ways, a very similar story

1879
01:44:29,560 --> 01:44:33,960
told in a very different way, in a very different tone.

1880
01:44:34,159 --> 01:44:36,319
And I'm excited for us to talk about that soon.

1881
01:44:36,359 --> 01:44:39,960
But I'll probably never watch this movie again. It just

1882
01:44:40,239 --> 01:44:43,399
it was very refreshing though that Ian and Tula's relationship

1883
01:44:43,479 --> 01:44:47,439
aged very well, So I won't revisit this movie again.

1884
01:44:47,760 --> 01:44:49,760
I don't think this movie's cute the way that it

1885
01:44:49,840 --> 01:44:56,159
was cute when this movie first came out, And yeah,

1886
01:44:56,279 --> 01:44:58,800
so that's how I feel about it. I feel meh

1887
01:44:58,840 --> 01:45:00,840
about this movie.

1888
01:45:01,039 --> 01:45:05,439
Speaker 3: I think this movie took off the way it did

1889
01:45:05,479 --> 01:45:07,840
for a lot of reasons. I think it showed a

1890
01:45:07,880 --> 01:45:11,760
really like fun way to poke fun at you know,

1891
01:45:11,920 --> 01:45:16,199
a culture, and anytime a movie can bring you inside

1892
01:45:16,199 --> 01:45:18,760
a culture, whether it's yours or not yours, and make

1893
01:45:18,840 --> 01:45:21,199
you feel like you have a little more understanding of

1894
01:45:21,239 --> 01:45:26,079
it can be a really good recipe for success. And

1895
01:45:26,119 --> 01:45:29,039
I think this movie did that. Of like like, let's

1896
01:45:29,039 --> 01:45:32,560
bring you all into our big Greek family here. And

1897
01:45:34,000 --> 01:45:37,560
I have DJ'ed a couple big, fat Greek weddings when

1898
01:45:37,560 --> 01:45:40,079
I was in the DJ business, including one for my friend,

1899
01:45:40,119 --> 01:45:43,960
and it was there were a few moments where like

1900
01:45:44,479 --> 01:45:47,119
I knew I had to play Zorba's dance, like I

1901
01:45:47,159 --> 01:45:50,079
just knew I did, and then like the way the

1902
01:45:50,239 --> 01:45:53,399
whole place became Greek at that moment was kind of

1903
01:45:53,439 --> 01:45:58,600
awesome and like it legit did, and like an eighty

1904
01:45:58,640 --> 01:46:01,800
year old man became like twenty immediately and was like

1905
01:46:02,279 --> 01:46:06,159
passing bills out and it was it was awesome. But

1906
01:46:07,359 --> 01:46:10,600
where this movie also like it came out in two

1907
01:46:10,600 --> 01:46:14,600
thousand and two. Yeah, and a lot of things that

1908
01:46:15,600 --> 01:46:20,319
we're very different and or true for you know, Generation X,

1909
01:46:20,359 --> 01:46:25,720
that aren't true now for us. I get the criticism

1910
01:46:26,279 --> 01:46:32,560
where it's like, ooh, see, we almost landed on the Yeah,

1911
01:46:32,640 --> 01:46:34,399
your dad's always gonna kind of be that way, but

1912
01:46:34,439 --> 01:46:37,000
we don't have to be that way, Like no, you

1913
01:46:37,199 --> 01:46:39,199
like you be the neck that turns ahead of going

1914
01:46:39,319 --> 01:46:45,239
like or we could be two heads that sit in

1915
01:46:45,399 --> 01:46:49,399
equal relation to each other and make life work because

1916
01:46:49,399 --> 01:46:51,279
it's hard out here. I don't know, maybe we try

1917
01:46:51,319 --> 01:46:54,439
that instead of like just be subservient, but not all

1918
01:46:54,439 --> 01:46:59,159
the way. What yeah, yep, I mean, And well that

1919
01:46:59,239 --> 01:47:02,159
makes sense from her that the tone of that message

1920
01:47:02,920 --> 01:47:04,880
would hit different in two thousand and two than does.

1921
01:47:04,760 --> 01:47:05,520
Speaker 4: Now for sure.

1922
01:47:05,560 --> 01:47:08,960
Speaker 3: For sure, Yeah, and I get that. I think I

1923
01:47:09,000 --> 01:47:12,199
probably won't seek it out. I don't know how long

1924
01:47:12,279 --> 01:47:15,880
this will persevere from this point further in culture, really,

1925
01:47:16,840 --> 01:47:19,039
but it's a fun movie. It is nice to see

1926
01:47:19,079 --> 01:47:22,119
like a relationship developed kind of from a person who's

1927
01:47:22,199 --> 01:47:29,199
recognizing I need to change and I need to grow

1928
01:47:29,239 --> 01:47:31,800
beyond what I'm being told I am, and I have

1929
01:47:31,840 --> 01:47:35,680
to do things and finding success in exactly that, and

1930
01:47:35,720 --> 01:47:38,479
recognizing that she didn't have to give up all of

1931
01:47:38,479 --> 01:47:42,560
herself to get that. Though. The major criticism I look

1932
01:47:42,600 --> 01:47:45,239
at with it is like Ian is almost a pretend person.

1933
01:47:48,359 --> 01:47:55,399
He's completely like whatever, I'll just I don't care about anything.

1934
01:47:55,600 --> 01:47:57,720
Speaker 1: Well, in real life, the guy who plays his friend

1935
01:47:57,760 --> 01:48:01,079
in the movie is the really Ian, So he is

1936
01:48:01,119 --> 01:48:05,640
the real husband of the writer and the lead of

1937
01:48:05,680 --> 01:48:06,279
this movie.

1938
01:48:06,640 --> 01:48:07,920
Speaker 4: But I think they're not divorced.

1939
01:48:08,520 --> 01:48:08,880
Speaker 3: They too.

1940
01:48:09,239 --> 01:48:10,279
Speaker 4: Take that for what you will.

1941
01:48:10,439 --> 01:48:13,199
Speaker 3: He's an interesting character in Cougar Town.

1942
01:48:13,920 --> 01:48:15,000
Speaker 4: I love Cougar Town.

1943
01:48:15,279 --> 01:48:19,399
Speaker 3: Yes, so've forgotten Jem, but you.

1944
01:48:19,359 --> 01:48:21,960
Speaker 4: Know, yeah, but his real name is Ian.

1945
01:48:22,199 --> 01:48:25,319
Speaker 3: Is really yeah, Ian is such like a pretend person.

1946
01:48:25,399 --> 01:48:27,960
Is something that felt a little off the mark to me,

1947
01:48:28,119 --> 01:48:31,079
that there's basically like no pushback other than kind of

1948
01:48:31,079 --> 01:48:32,640
like standing after dad and be like I'm a grown

1949
01:48:32,640 --> 01:48:34,319
ass man and I don't give a fuck what you

1950
01:48:34,359 --> 01:48:37,840
think about that. But you know, you do see people

1951
01:48:37,920 --> 01:48:42,119
convert religions for their partners and things, but usually that's

1952
01:48:42,239 --> 01:48:46,439
more of a nuanced, difficult discussion, and I don't like that.

1953
01:48:46,479 --> 01:48:48,840
It creates this thing of like, well, I mean someone,

1954
01:48:48,920 --> 01:48:51,159
if they love you enough, they'll just change everything about

1955
01:48:51,159 --> 01:48:55,680
themselves and their family isn't really like that important, and

1956
01:48:56,199 --> 01:48:59,359
you know we can just like kind of mention them

1957
01:48:59,399 --> 01:49:04,560
as like Ann the Miller's it is very all or nothing.

1958
01:49:04,600 --> 01:49:10,000
And well, I do get that sometimes cultures are that way.

1959
01:49:10,039 --> 01:49:12,399
We were like well, i mean we're all Greek now,

1960
01:49:12,800 --> 01:49:15,079
or like, well, I mean you join our family and

1961
01:49:15,079 --> 01:49:19,640
everybody's whatever we are. But that's not the way a

1962
01:49:19,680 --> 01:49:21,920
wedding works. You got to incorporate both sides of the

1963
01:49:21,960 --> 01:49:25,880
family and make efforts to incorporate traditions of everything and

1964
01:49:25,920 --> 01:49:28,840
for this to actually be successful, either people have no

1965
01:49:28,920 --> 01:49:31,079
identity for real and are looking to escape something, which

1966
01:49:31,079 --> 01:49:32,880
is okay, what was going to need therapy f yi,

1967
01:49:33,640 --> 01:49:37,079
or we're telling a fairy tale and I think this

1968
01:49:37,159 --> 01:49:39,279
one tells a fairy tale, which it's rom com so

1969
01:49:39,399 --> 01:49:42,840
it's fun, but it still makes me lament a little

1970
01:49:42,840 --> 01:49:46,039
bit that you guys could have picked a Knight's Tale

1971
01:49:46,680 --> 01:49:48,520
when you had the chance, and you would have seen

1972
01:49:48,600 --> 01:49:56,680
a strong female character demand feminist and say to the audience,

1973
01:49:57,479 --> 01:50:00,960
I know it was God. And if we didn't want

1974
01:50:01,000 --> 01:50:02,720
to talk about feminism so much, pick a movie they

1975
01:50:02,760 --> 01:50:05,079
have so minute, Well, we almost.

1976
01:50:04,840 --> 01:50:05,760
Speaker 4: Got How to Be Single?

1977
01:50:06,520 --> 01:50:08,840
Speaker 1: That was the second that was the first runner up,

1978
01:50:09,119 --> 01:50:11,199
and that movie is how it sounds.

1979
01:50:12,000 --> 01:50:16,880
Speaker 4: Unfortunately, well that's the pick. So audience, you reckon with that, audience?

1980
01:50:17,199 --> 01:50:19,640
Wreckon audience. Why don't you want us to talk about

1981
01:50:19,640 --> 01:50:23,520
how to be single? Okay? Anyway, on that note, we'll

1982
01:50:23,560 --> 01:50:24,159
wrap it up.

1983
01:50:24,760 --> 01:50:27,199
Speaker 1: So as always, if you would like to leave us

1984
01:50:27,199 --> 01:50:29,199
a rating and review, it is the best way for

1985
01:50:29,319 --> 01:50:31,399
new people to find us. It's also the cheapest way

1986
01:50:31,439 --> 01:50:33,359
to support us if you want to put a little

1987
01:50:33,399 --> 01:50:36,920
dough into it. Though, Happy Valentine's Day to us. You

1988
01:50:36,960 --> 01:50:40,000
can support us via Patreon. You can be a patron.

1989
01:50:40,079 --> 01:50:42,239
If you are five dollars or more, you get.

1990
01:50:42,199 --> 01:50:43,119
Speaker 4: Our ten dollars or more.

1991
01:50:43,600 --> 01:50:46,640
Speaker 1: Five dollars or more ten dollars more, five dollars are more.

1992
01:50:46,960 --> 01:50:50,600
You can get early access to episodes that are also unedited,

1993
01:50:50,640 --> 01:50:52,720
so you get a little behind the scenes kind of

1994
01:50:52,720 --> 01:50:54,840
stuff here and there. If you are a fifty dollars

1995
01:50:54,880 --> 01:50:57,159
or more patron, you can pick the topic of an episode.

1996
01:50:57,199 --> 01:50:58,800
So Ben, why don't you give us fifty bucks and

1997
01:50:58,800 --> 01:51:00,840
we'll talk about Nightsdale.

1998
01:51:01,600 --> 01:51:04,279
Speaker 3: I am a third co owner of this podcast if

1999
01:51:04,319 --> 01:51:08,680
I want anyway, but if the audience wants to push it.

2000
01:51:09,800 --> 01:51:12,199
Speaker 1: And then also if you want to go on Tea Public,

2001
01:51:12,319 --> 01:51:14,039
you can find us there. If you want to get

2002
01:51:14,039 --> 01:51:16,760
like mugs, coasters, things like that to support us, we'd

2003
01:51:16,760 --> 01:51:20,000
appreciate that too. As always, if you want to find us,

2004
01:51:20,000 --> 01:51:23,760
you can find us on TikTok, Facebook for now, Instagram

2005
01:51:23,800 --> 01:51:27,560
for now, popcorn Psychology. You can also email us at

2006
01:51:27,560 --> 01:51:33,760
popcorn Psychology at gmail dot com. Have a lovely day, everybody,