WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.440 --> 00:00:03.480 Hey, everyone, Welcome to the Team House. I'm Jack Murphy 2 00:00:03.759 --> 00:00:08.000 here with tonight's guest journalist Colin Freeman. He is the 3 00:00:08.039 --> 00:00:10.679 author of The Mad and the Brave, which is a 4 00:00:10.679 --> 00:00:14.439 book about the Ukrainian foreign legion, that is, the foreigners 5 00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:17.519 from I mean, he'll tell us, but fifty some odd 6 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:21.079 countries that came to Ukraine to help defend the country 7 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:26.199 from Putin's invasion, the Russian invasion, mostly you know, starting 8 00:00:26.199 --> 00:00:30.920 on the twenty two, twenty twenty two full scale invasion 9 00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:34.799 that began going forward is kind of the context of 10 00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:38.359 the book. Collins also had an interesting career in his 11 00:00:38.399 --> 00:00:42.799 own right as a journalist covering various combat zones. So 12 00:00:42.960 --> 00:00:45.920 thank you Colin for joining us, and thanks for reaching. 13 00:00:45.640 --> 00:00:48.479 Out, thanks for having me on the podcast. 14 00:00:49.079 --> 00:00:51.759 Yeah, I just read the book, the PDF that you 15 00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:53.560 sent me on. I'm gonna I need to order a 16 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:56.679 hard copy for my library. I want to have it 17 00:00:56.719 --> 00:00:59.520 in my collection. I just finished reading it before we 18 00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:02.119 started this interview, and it was very, very good. Like 19 00:01:02.159 --> 00:01:03.920 I was telling you before the show, I wish I 20 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:09.719 had written it because it was that good. So, Golan, 21 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:12.120 let's start off a little bit with your kind of 22 00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:15.920 origin story. How did you grow up, Where did you 23 00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:17.920 grow up and how did that sort of take you 24 00:01:17.959 --> 00:01:18.959 towards journalism. 25 00:01:20.560 --> 00:01:21.319 Yeah, I grew up. 26 00:01:21.239 --> 00:01:25.560 In Edinburgh and Scotland, and I think when I was young, 27 00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:29.000 I didn't have any interest in anything particular. I didn't 28 00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:31.719 want to be a banker, didn't want to be a lawyer, 29 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:35.040 that kind of thing. I couldn't really work out what 30 00:01:35.079 --> 00:01:37.280 I wanted to do, and I realized that journalism was 31 00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:40.640 quite a good profession for people who aren't interested in 32 00:01:40.799 --> 00:01:46.280 anything in particular, because every day is essentially different. Certainly 33 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:49.680 that's the case if you're working on a general current 34 00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:57.400 affairs newspaper. So after I left school and went to university, 35 00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:00.120 I think by the end of Uni I decided I 36 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:03.079 did that I would I would try and become a journalist. 37 00:02:03.239 --> 00:02:06.400 I didn't do much at university in terms of journalism. 38 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:11.240 I then got a job on a local paper in Grimsby, 39 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:14.479 which is a town in the north of England, doing 40 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:18.840 very kind of typical local paper stories, court stories, stories 41 00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:24.080 about animals, stuck up trees, village, village shows, all that 42 00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:28.439 sort of stuff, you know, the kind of but it's 43 00:02:28.439 --> 00:02:30.479 a sort of microcosm of the world around us. And 44 00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:33.599 while it sometimes feels boring at the time, you do 45 00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:37.000 get to sort of see every side of human life, 46 00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:39.759 from the you know, life in the courts and the 47 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:43.639 kind of darker underbelly of of of of a place, 48 00:02:43.759 --> 00:02:47.360 to the way the government works at local level, who 49 00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:49.439 the movers and shakers are, and of course all the 50 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:51.199 human interest stories in between. 51 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:53.719 It's more that the some of. 52 00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:57.479 The stories rather than the the individual stories themselves. It's 53 00:02:57.520 --> 00:03:00.599 a great chance really to just sort of sea life 54 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:04.439 up front in all its different shades. Then I moved 55 00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:07.039 down to London to cut a long story short, and 56 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:12.520 worked on a tabloid news agency chasing celebrities around. I've 57 00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:15.360 been I've been told to get lost by all manner 58 00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:18.439 of famous British celebrities, and some B list ones as well, 59 00:03:18.520 --> 00:03:24.000 like the Oasis, the Spice Girls, all these people. I 60 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:26.159 think at one point or another I said, no comment, 61 00:03:26.240 --> 00:03:31.000 please go away to me. Probably did some American ones 62 00:03:31.039 --> 00:03:34.439 as well, but I didn't get very far. And then 63 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:38.639 that that was the kind of stepping stone that tabloid 64 00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:41.599 stuff to Fleet Street or you know, which is which 65 00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:45.000 is where our national newspapers the shorthand for our national 66 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:49.080 newspapers and it toughens you up a bit, gets you 67 00:03:49.240 --> 00:03:51.520 used to you know, gives you a bit of a 68 00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:54.639 thick skin. Then I worked on the London Evening Standard, 69 00:03:54.639 --> 00:03:56.520 which is kind of like the equivalent of the New 70 00:03:56.599 --> 00:04:00.960 York Post. I suppose it's London's main, you know, newspaper, 71 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:03.120 but it sort of sees itself as a national paper. 72 00:04:03.439 --> 00:04:05.879 I was there for about four years, but I only 73 00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:09.080 got so far up the chain. Really, I wasn't one 74 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:12.759 of them, you know, their brightest rising stars. And if 75 00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:17.160 that's the case in a competitive newsroom environment, you tend 76 00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:19.759 to realize that, you know, you're never going to do 77 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:23.439 that well. And when the really big stories happened, such 78 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:26.879 as the Iraq War, when it was looming, you realize 79 00:04:26.920 --> 00:04:28.399 you're not going to be part of the team that's 80 00:04:28.439 --> 00:04:31.079 going to get sent. And I think it was the 81 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:34.360 Iraq War started in March of two thousand and three, 82 00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:37.959 if I remember correctly, and many as many of your 83 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:40.160 listeners will remember that there was quite a kind of 84 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:42.279 big roll up to the run up to the war 85 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:44.000 where it was pretty clear it was going to happen. 86 00:04:45.839 --> 00:04:47.839 You know, you have troop deployments to the golf and 87 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:50.959 so on. Months in advance under I think at Christmas 88 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:53.560 of two thousand and two, about three months before the 89 00:04:53.560 --> 00:05:00.759 war started, I was on another celebrity doorstep and sitting 90 00:05:00.759 --> 00:05:03.399 outside some celebrities house waiting for them to comment on 91 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:05.720 some story, not even sure if they were there or not. 92 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:08.519 I was winging the photographer I was with about how 93 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:11.120 the team for the to cover the Iraq War for 94 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:14.439 the Standard had already been picked and I wasn't gonna 95 00:05:14.439 --> 00:05:17.480 be on it, not to any my great surprise, and 96 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:19.279 he said, well, look, you know, rather than just sort 97 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:20.920 of sitting there bitching, why don't you do and cover 98 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:22.079 the war as a freelancer. 99 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:24.199 And I still thought, can you do that? 100 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:27.879 And it seemed a crazy idea, but it's sort of a 101 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:31.360 little light bulb in my head and I thought, well, 102 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:33.120 you know, I'll go and try and do it, and 103 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:34.959 if nothing else, it will be like a kind of 104 00:05:35.639 --> 00:05:38.519 a gap year or a backpacking adventure with with with 105 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:40.720 a bit of a difference, maybe with a bit more purpose. 106 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:44.600 So off I went to Iraq. It seemed like a 107 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:47.120 great idea to me. Some of the other people that 108 00:05:47.160 --> 00:05:50.639 I ran it past thought, no, that's that's absolute bloody madness. 109 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:55.040 You know, you don't speak Arabic, you don't have any 110 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:58.279 contacts out in Iraq, you don't have any hostile environment 111 00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:02.920 training and combat experience like that. You've got no work 112 00:06:02.920 --> 00:06:05.240 lined up, and actually you don't even know where Iraq is, 113 00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:07.079 which was true. I had to look where it was 114 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:10.480 on the map. But anyway, I went out there. I 115 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:14.120 pitched up actually on the day the war formal combat 116 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:17.439 hostilities actually ended on I think May the first of 117 00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:20.720 two thousand and three, I the very last day of 118 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:23.120 the active war, which is not a great spur to 119 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:25.560 have in your cap that they have in your cap 120 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:28.839 as a war correspondent, But it turned out to be 121 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:31.639 a good time because as we know that, you know, 122 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:35.319 the actual invasion atop or Saddam Hussaying went like clockwork. 123 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:39.399 It was the it was the occupation afterwards. That was 124 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:42.519 the bit that you know, proved that did not go 125 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:44.639 to a plan, and that was where the news was really. 126 00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:46.680 So I was out there for a couple of years 127 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:49.240 and that was kind of where I sort of learned 128 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:54.759 my trade as a foreign correspondent. From then I became 129 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:58.000 got a job on the Daily Telegraph back in London 130 00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:03.040 on their foreign desk. She foreign correspondent and spent about 131 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:09.839 the next ten twelve years covering different big stories around 132 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:14.600 the world, principally the Arab Spring, the Somali piracy crisis, 133 00:07:14.839 --> 00:07:16.879 and of course the rest of the war in Iraq 134 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:17.920 and Afghanistan. 135 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:19.839 So that was kind of me. 136 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:23.040 I then went freelance in twenty sixteen, still doing the 137 00:07:23.079 --> 00:07:28.160 same sort of stuff really essentially, and then when the 138 00:07:28.199 --> 00:07:31.720 war in Ukraine started, the Telegraph asked me back as 139 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:34.480 an extra pair of hands to go and cover that, 140 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:38.120 and so I've been covering that on off for the 141 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:40.360 last four years. I was in Kiev when the year 142 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:43.079 I was in Ukrain at the start of the war, 143 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:45.680 ended up in Kia for most of the first month, 144 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:49.000 and that's where I ended up getting the idea for 145 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:53.160 the book about the international volunteers. That's me in a nutshell, 146 00:07:54.360 --> 00:07:55.720 rather large nutshell. 147 00:07:55.839 --> 00:07:58.720 Just to point out to the listeners kind of the 148 00:07:58.759 --> 00:08:01.639 life of a freelancer order. I mean, you really are 149 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:04.079 just packing sort of like a laptop and a camera 150 00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:06.240 and a change of clothes and going over there on 151 00:08:06.279 --> 00:08:10.480 your own. There's no security blanket, there's no nothing, and 152 00:08:10.519 --> 00:08:12.839 you have to pitch editors and hopefully sell a story. 153 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:15.920 Right that that is exactly it. 154 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:18.319 Yes, And certainly when I first went to Iraq, I 155 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:22.120 didn't find that many editors that keen. Initially I thought 156 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:24.160 that was just because they had their own people there. 157 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:26.399 It turned out most of them didn't. The most of 158 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:29.240 their staff correspondence had pulled out by then. But a 159 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:32.759 lot of them were just reluctant to use you because 160 00:08:32.799 --> 00:08:35.240 they were worried that if something went wrong, as it 161 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:38.879 could easily do, they would be, you know, morally. 162 00:08:38.480 --> 00:08:41.159 If not legally, liable for you. 163 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:44.279 And that's not a position that a lot of media 164 00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:47.519 organizations want to find themselves in. Nobody wants to be 165 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:51.759 waking up what no executive wants to be waking up 166 00:08:51.799 --> 00:08:56.000 to find some freelancer that they gave some vague kind 167 00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:59.679 of commission to via email suddenly staring out from a 168 00:08:59.720 --> 00:09:02.600 hostel video That has happened in the past. 169 00:09:02.679 --> 00:09:03.840 And so that's. 170 00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:07.200 The perennial problem for freelancers these days, is it is 171 00:09:07.240 --> 00:09:10.480 finding you know, news organizations are that are willing to 172 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:14.279 trust them in war zones. Although you know it's it's 173 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:16.799 not surprising because it has come down to a duty 174 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:17.159 of care. 175 00:09:17.240 --> 00:09:17.679 Sometimes. 176 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:20.720 I remember a time because I was going back and 177 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:24.120 forth to Syria and Iraq during the ISIS war, and 178 00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:27.159 it was like twenty fourteen or twenty fifteen, it was 179 00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:29.000 I think it was one of the big ones. It 180 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:31.919 was like Reuters or AP or someone. They would take 181 00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:38.399 copy from freelancers, but not photographs. It's very weird policy 182 00:09:38.679 --> 00:09:41.360 that they would not accept photojournalism. But if you went 183 00:09:41.399 --> 00:09:43.320 and wrote a story and submitted it, they would, you know, 184 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:44.000 consider it. 185 00:09:45.559 --> 00:09:49.360 Yeah, I mean they different places have different rules. Some 186 00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:50.759 places will not take. 187 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:53.200 Anything from anybody, yes, because they don't want to be 188 00:09:53.240 --> 00:09:56.679 seen to be encouraging people. Other places will say, well, look, 189 00:09:56.919 --> 00:10:01.720 we can't commission you to go, but when you get back, 190 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:04.799 when you're back in you're sort of safe and sound 191 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:07.840 and assuming you're still alive, we can have a chat then, 192 00:10:08.279 --> 00:10:12.399 which is slightly having your cake and eating it a 193 00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:12.919 little bit. 194 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:17.200 So you know, it's it's quite a difficult one. 195 00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:21.399 But we when I was working on the telegraph phone desk, 196 00:10:21.480 --> 00:10:24.720 we did occasionally get people who were free lancers ringing 197 00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:27.159 up saying they were often you know, about to deploy 198 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:32.720 themselves to somewhere dicey, and we would often try and 199 00:10:32.759 --> 00:10:35.399 dissuade them. I've generally found the best way of dissuading 200 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:38.200 them was to sort of say do you you know, 201 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:41.360 do your parents know you're going? And they'd be like, well, 202 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:43.480 what's what's that got to do with it? And say, well, 203 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:46.639 it's your parents whose numbers will need in case you 204 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:50.039 get kidnapped. We also need things like your blood group 205 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:54.639 and you know, other information like that. And how will 206 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:57.879 they respond if they were were on the phone telling 207 00:10:57.919 --> 00:10:59.919 them that you've you know, you've not been heard of 208 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:01.519 for a week, and that. 209 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:03.639 Your face has just appeared at a hostage video. 210 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:06.279 I don't think I've had the let on quite as 211 00:11:06.279 --> 00:11:08.759 thick as that, But when you mentioned things like that, 212 00:11:08.759 --> 00:11:12.279 that sometimes drives the point home to people in a 213 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:15.320 way that they perhaps haven't sort of quite thought about 214 00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:18.600 it in the past. Yea, I myself was actually kidnapped 215 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:22.159 in Somalia back in two thousand and eight while working for. 216 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:23.639 The Can you tell us about that? 217 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:25.039 Yeah? 218 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:28.080 Sure, I mean that's why I you know this, This 219 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:31.320 is a sort of a subject of particular interest to me. 220 00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:37.480 I was covering the Somali piracy crisis at the time, which, again, 221 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:41.879 as many of your listeners will remember, was when Somali 222 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:45.360 pirates were sailing out in the Gulf of Aiden, hijacking 223 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:51.679 ships and taking the cruise hostage. So yeah, we the 224 00:11:51.799 --> 00:11:53.519 finder said to me at the time, can you go 225 00:11:53.639 --> 00:11:57.759 to Somalia to do a bit of reporting on the ground, 226 00:11:57.799 --> 00:11:59.799 just to get an idea of what the you know, 227 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:04.840 what the local people think about the piracy and so 228 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:05.320 if we want. 229 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:07.279 We went to a town called Bosassa, which. 230 00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:10.080 Is in the northern region of Somalia called punk Land, 231 00:12:10.759 --> 00:12:13.159 which is where most of the piracy was taking place 232 00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:16.480 because it's close to the Gulf of Aidens, So it's 233 00:12:16.600 --> 00:12:20.519 it's like being the being a spot on the inter 234 00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:24.279 on the state highway where you can just sail out 235 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:26.399 into the sea and you've got you know, hundreds of 236 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:32.000 passing ships every day, as most journalists do when they 237 00:12:32.039 --> 00:12:32.799 go around. 238 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:34.759 Indeed most business people and aid workers. 239 00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:39.440 We use bodyguards that were hired by our fixes, local hires, 240 00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:43.120 just you know, guys with you know, guys who were 241 00:12:43.159 --> 00:12:47.600 probably the fixers, cousins or relatives or cousins, friends, whatever, 242 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:51.440 with guns. Guys with guns, about seven of them. And 243 00:12:51.879 --> 00:12:53.879 it's basically a kind of scarecrow. In fact, you're not 244 00:12:53.919 --> 00:12:56.480 expecting these people to lay their lives down for you, 245 00:12:56.559 --> 00:12:58.679 but to. You do have to hope that the fixers 246 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:02.600 hires ones who are trustworthy. In our case, they were 247 00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:05.600 not trustworthy. And on the last day, as we were 248 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:09.120 driving to the airport, our bodyguards, the guys we were 249 00:13:09.159 --> 00:13:12.200 paying several hundred bucks to keep us safe every day, 250 00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:18.360 kidnapped us themselves and drove us off into the mountains. 251 00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:21.200 I won't go into the full details about it that 252 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:23.679 there is a book about it if anyone wants to 253 00:13:23.799 --> 00:13:27.759 check it out, which tells the story in exhaustive detail. 254 00:13:27.879 --> 00:13:31.279 But basically we were held in a series of caves 255 00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:35.679 in the mountains of northern Somalia for about six weeks. 256 00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:40.200 We weren't we weren't hurt badlier and like that. We 257 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:42.039 were threatened a few times, and there was a few 258 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:45.039 other thrills and spills. A gunfight in the cave at 259 00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:47.559 one point with a rival clan, which is not a 260 00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:50.679 great place to have a gunfight, you know, with all 261 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:55.000 those all those stone walls. That's the bullets zigza about 262 00:13:55.120 --> 00:14:00.320 ricocheting around. But eventually we were released. Our can't go 263 00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:05.679 the circumstances are released too much. But money was asked for. 264 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:07.240 Whether money changed towns, I. 265 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:07.799 Don't really know. 266 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:10.480 That is quite frequent in that part of the world. 267 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:16.240 We were also threatened at one point that when the 268 00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:20.759 negotiations were not going very well, the pirates happened to 269 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:25.240 mention that a British naval vessel had killed a couple 270 00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:28.080 of pirates and a clan a few hundred miles down 271 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:32.120 the road just the week before, and they said, the 272 00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:38.200 clan that the clan to which those dead pirates belong, 273 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:41.720 and there are the cross about that, and they've heard that. 274 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:45.679 We've got you, a British journalist hostage up here, and 275 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:48.759 they put an a counter offer for you, So if 276 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:51.840 your newspaper doesn't pay up, they'd be very keen to 277 00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:53.879 buy you, just to sort of have a little word 278 00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:57.759 about those pirates that your navy killed. And I remember thinking, 279 00:14:57.879 --> 00:15:00.399 Jesus Christ, you know, it's the first time the Royal 280 00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:04.399 Navy has killed anyone in about three hundred years, and 281 00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:07.360 it happens to be the same bloody week that I'm 282 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:10.039 stuck with a bunch of pirates in Somalia. 283 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:12.279 So yeah, it was. It was. 284 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:16.600 It was not a pleasant experience, but it was it 285 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:20.159 was manageable, and it has sort of taught me, you know, 286 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:24.240 the sort of that it's fairly important to be careful 287 00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:28.039 when you get deployed abroad, although realistically these days kidnapping 288 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:31.200 is a is a threat that can you know lots 289 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:34.799 of journalists I know I've had it happened to, including 290 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:38.080 quite a few in Iraq, where the consequences could be 291 00:15:38.120 --> 00:15:40.559 a lot more serious. 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Not sure where to start, head to ghostbed 337 00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:20.640 dot com slash house and take their mattress quiz to 338 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:23.880 find the right mattress. Then build from there. Go to 339 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:27.160 ghostbed dot com slash house and use the promo code 340 00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:32.000 house at checkout. That's ghostbed dot com slash house promo 341 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:37.759 code House. Some exclusions apply see site for details. Yeah, yeah, 342 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:39.480 I was gonna say, like, one of the things I've 343 00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:44.160 been told about the kidnappings and Somalia is that they're 344 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:47.240 not going to hurt you. Like that's not what it's about. 345 00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:50.119 It's all about a value transaction that they want to 346 00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:50.680 take place. 347 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:53.160 That is generally the case. 348 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:55.640 Yeah, and they actually, I think it's almost fair to 349 00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:58.319 say that they specialize in being they trying to be 350 00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:03.640 fairly honest brokers in that sense, because and to honor deals, 351 00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:07.440 because you know, there is a sense among a lot 352 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:09.240 of you know, a lot of Western firms, if they 353 00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:11.960 get somebody kidnapped in Somari, they would sort of assume 354 00:19:12.039 --> 00:19:15.880 that the people doing the kidnapping would be bad faith actors, 355 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:19.359 and that offering them roundsom money would simply be chucking 356 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:23.079 good money after bad and making a bad situation worse, 357 00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:26.039 and that there'll be no reason that these people in 358 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:28.400 this lawless part of the world would honor their deal. 359 00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:31.559 In actual fact, I think they do have a reputation 360 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:35.759 for once a deal is struck, it usually goes through. 361 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:35.920 You know. 362 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:40.319 And as you say, there's not much relative to the 363 00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:43.599 numbers of people who've been taken by pirates, there's not 364 00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:45.759 been many cases where there as people have not come 365 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:49.960 home alive as long as money has been forthcoming, whereas 366 00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:53.519 in Iraq or Syria, you know, you saw the majority 367 00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:55.640 of those many of those cases would end up with 368 00:19:55.720 --> 00:19:58.920 somebody being beheaded, And there was a school of thought 369 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:01.279 that says that these were not the kidnappings at all. 370 00:20:01.359 --> 00:20:06.519 They were more what you watched someone was reading described 371 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:11.559 as deferred homicides. You catch somebody, you intent that killed them, 372 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:13.559 but you make out like it's going to be you 373 00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:19.160 want some political concession, which you know, you know is 374 00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:22.119 never going to be offered. For example, US troops being 375 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:25.519 pulled out of Iraq was a common one. 376 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:26.039 During that time. 377 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:33.000 And then how did you get interested or get sent 378 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:35.440 to cover the war in Ukraine? How did that first 379 00:20:35.519 --> 00:20:35.960 come about? 380 00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:37.640 So? 381 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:41.240 Yeah, I was a jobbing freelancer for the telegraph, you know, 382 00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:44.559 mainly for the foreigners, So whenever they needed an extra pair. 383 00:20:44.359 --> 00:20:47.759 Of hands on someone, I was there. And the Ukraine 384 00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:49.480 War was obviously one of those cases. 385 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:51.640 And if you catch your mind back, you remember that 386 00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:55.200 the war, You know, there was quite a lot of 387 00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:57.599 pre indicators that the war was going to happen. Put 388 00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:01.839 In doing this enormous troops throughout the new year of 389 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:06.480 twenty twenty two, and it became fairly obvious that he 390 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:10.200 was gonna make some key decision about it. Around the 391 00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:13.480 last week of the last week of February of twenty 392 00:21:13.559 --> 00:21:18.160 twenty twenty twenty twenty two. We all have the telegraph 393 00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:22.119 already had a couple of people in Kiev, and one 394 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:24.519 team in Kiev and one team in the east of Ukraine. 395 00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:29.839 They're in anticipation that the invasion would start. And initially 396 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:32.640 they said to me, can you go to Leviv in 397 00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:34.680 the west of Ukraine, just to be there as an 398 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:37.880 extra pair of hands if you know, if much. 399 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:38.720 Happens or whatever. 400 00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:40.920 But we don't really think it will, you know, we 401 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:44.359 don't improve into that daft, so neither did I, of course, 402 00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:47.240 so I flew in on what I think was the 403 00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:51.960 very last flight from the Viv on February the twenty 404 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:53.400 third of twenty twenty two. 405 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:55.880 The war, of course started on the twenty fourth. 406 00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:59.319 Got to the hotel, had a couple of beers, went 407 00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:01.440 about thinking, and yeah, it's going to be a couple 408 00:22:01.480 --> 00:22:05.000 of weeks watching covering what we call the diplomatic climb 409 00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:07.920 down story in the media, where it's like, you know, 410 00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:09.880 there's been a big build up, lots of saber rattling, 411 00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:12.200 and then Putin decides not to do much in the 412 00:22:12.359 --> 00:22:15.160 end and maybe send a few more tanks into bits 413 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:17.720 of the down Bass of the already occupied. 414 00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:17.799 Or something like that. 415 00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:20.759 Then a few hours later, I'm sort of woken up 416 00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:25.319 by florries of WhatsApp messages from colleagues in key Evan 417 00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:27.640 elsewhere saying the war has started. 418 00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:31.200 You know, all hell is breaking loose, and yeah. 419 00:22:31.079 --> 00:22:34.279 So that was that, And so the first week was 420 00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:38.519 was you know, it was a bit frightening because I 421 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:41.000 had never I'd covered wars in Africa in the Middle 422 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:43.000 East a bit before, but you know that this. 423 00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:44.799 Was kind of like grown up warfare. 424 00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:49.559 This is, you know, that the world's second superpower, and 425 00:22:49.640 --> 00:22:52.000 also it's of Vladimir Putin's It's not more than the 426 00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:55.599 nice guys. And you know, nobody really had any idea 427 00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:59.039 of what kind of things he was capable of. As 428 00:22:59.079 --> 00:23:01.720 we now know, you know, he's barely capable of invading 429 00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:04.039 the Dawn Bass, let alone, Kiev or anywhere else. But 430 00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:07.200 at that time, you were, you know, you were expecting 431 00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:10.119 Russian paratroopers to land in the Viva at any moment 432 00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:10.920 you were. 433 00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:12.799 I was worried the border might be sealed. 434 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:15.160 I was thinking, like, you know, if if all hell 435 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:18.200 breaks lose, can I walk from the Viv back to Poland. 436 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:21.839 It's only seventy miles or something. So yeah, it was. 437 00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:25.240 It was quite so that that first week was was 438 00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:28.079 quite scary. It was it was difficulty sleeping and so on, 439 00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:30.599 and also you're very adrenalized just from having to you know, 440 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:34.200 do the job as well the daily reporting. Then on 441 00:23:34.279 --> 00:23:36.680 about day five I had I was, you know, I 442 00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:40.440 was tasked with replacing the team in Kiev that we 443 00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:43.039 had who'd already been there for a month. They both 444 00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:46.480 had COVID and you know that they weren't feeling match 445 00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:51.200 fit for what could be, you know, an unending siege potentially. 446 00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:54.000 So I was kind of thinking, well, after we get 447 00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:56.160 into the Kiv, all the cars are driving the other way, 448 00:23:56.640 --> 00:24:00.279 the higher cars shut place in the Vivas has been shot, 449 00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:03.000 you know, and nobody in their right mind is driving 450 00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:06.680 down that motorway. And I was kind of despairing. And 451 00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:08.799 then sudden somebody said, well, why don't you take the train? 452 00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:11.200 I said, what do you mean the train, thinking like 453 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:14.599 all the trains would have stopped ages ago. They pointed 454 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:17.160 out that the trains were every day there were disgorging, 455 00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:20.200 you know, large numbers of refugees at the at the 456 00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:24.359 border with Poland, and obviously those trains came back empty 457 00:24:24.759 --> 00:24:26.599 and so you could just jump on one of them, 458 00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:29.079 and it was it was one of the strangest train 459 00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:30.039 journeys I've ever done. 460 00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:32.160 You know, it's just almost a completely. 461 00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:34.640 Empty train, me and one or one or two other 462 00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:37.079 a few other Ukrainians and I think of for Italian, 463 00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:40.319 an Italian photographer who was told by the steward not 464 00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:43.319 to take to take his feet off the seat. So 465 00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:47.759 there's still maintaining standards the Ukrainian train service. As we 466 00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:50.119 got into Kiv and then covered the you know, the 467 00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:53.240 the Siege of Kia for the next the next five 468 00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:56.359 weeks or so, by which time it was already showing 469 00:24:56.480 --> 00:24:58.079 signs of petering out. 470 00:24:59.480 --> 00:25:01.839 This is when they were trying to capture the airfield 471 00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:03.920 and there were assassination at tams. 472 00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:07.160 Yeah, yeah, yes, the majority. 473 00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:09.119 I mean, there was a lot of fear of Russian 474 00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:14.160 saboteurs wandering the streets in the first few days, and 475 00:25:14.359 --> 00:25:17.599 the Ukrainian troops, although pretty professional most of the time, 476 00:25:17.640 --> 00:25:22.039 were quite jumpy. Those sabatarres are either were rounded up 477 00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:25.160 or proved to be nothing more than the rumor. After 478 00:25:25.240 --> 00:25:26.079 about a week. 479 00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:27.920 Or yours. 480 00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:32.480 The Russians pushing into Urpin and Butcher in the northwest 481 00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:36.319 that was the main focus of their assault. Also an 482 00:25:36.359 --> 00:25:39.480 area called Brivery in the east, so that the combat 483 00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:43.200 itself was limited to certain areas. But I mean Kiev 484 00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:45.799 at that point certainly felt very much like you know, 485 00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:48.920 a city under under siege. You had, you know, missiles 486 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:52.839 coming in quite regularly in the mornings, and also just 487 00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:58.039 the streets were almost completely deserted at that time, far 488 00:25:58.119 --> 00:26:00.599 far quieter than they are now, and you know, there 489 00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:03.839 was just signs of the of things kind of fraying 490 00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:07.960 at the edges. Lots of spots on street corners were 491 00:26:08.119 --> 00:26:11.160 or streets where cars had crashed just because people were 492 00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:16.480 driving in a panic. Quite a lot of mentally unstable 493 00:26:16.519 --> 00:26:21.559 people out on the streets who primarily people whose medical 494 00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:24.119 who are on medication of one sort or another or 495 00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:27.000 otherwise unable to care for themselves, who've been left basically 496 00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:29.680 to defend for themselves, and who you know, running out 497 00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:33.039 of appropriate medication. Yeah, just quite a few signs that 498 00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:35.839 you know, the sort of the place was buckling. But 499 00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:40.480 as as time went on, it you know, things sort 500 00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:43.880 of you know got back together, back back to normal again, 501 00:26:43.960 --> 00:26:46.799 and you know, shops were open, cafes were open, and 502 00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:50.000 we saw Ukrainians rallying around in the way that you 503 00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:53.759 know he's now. You know, they're not very famous for 504 00:26:53.839 --> 00:26:54.480 around the world. 505 00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:58.480 When was the first time you came in contact with 506 00:26:58.599 --> 00:27:00.519 a foreigner that was fighting over there. 507 00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:06.519 Well, Zelensky announced the creation of the International Legion on 508 00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:09.759 about day three of the war from his bunker in 509 00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:12.920 the center of Kiev, a time when you know, all 510 00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:16.079 rather rather grim for Kiev, and everybody was expecting that, 511 00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:20.200 you know, if if the regually, if the Zelenski's government 512 00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:23.359 didn't collapse within seventy two hours in three days, it 513 00:27:23.400 --> 00:27:25.799 would be you know, within three weeks or three months 514 00:27:25.880 --> 00:27:30.519 or whatever. And he framed it very much as an 515 00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:33.279 appeal in the wider world. He said that anyone who, 516 00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:37.880 anyone ouse out there has got military skills and wants 517 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:40.960 to come and fight for Ukraine, fight, I'm forming an 518 00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:43.920 international legion. It will be for those who want to 519 00:27:44.599 --> 00:27:49.000 fight for democracy, freedom, human rights, not just for Ukraine. 520 00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:50.799 But for Europe and for the whole of the world. 521 00:27:50.799 --> 00:27:54.960 It's a very you know, romantic appeal really and you know, 522 00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:01.559 you know, echoing the spirit of the the International Brigade 523 00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:05.880 in Spain during the Spanish Civil War in the nineteen thirties, 524 00:28:06.519 --> 00:28:10.720 when volunteers around the world flocked to fight to help 525 00:28:10.759 --> 00:28:15.559 the Republican government that democratically elected left wing Republican government 526 00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:18.960 in Spain fight off Franco's fascists. And you know, so, 527 00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:22.960 you know, has since been regarded very much as you know, 528 00:28:23.319 --> 00:28:28.279 a dry run for World War two. And yeah, so 529 00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:31.839 that's what he said, And within I think a couple 530 00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:35.680 of weeks, you know, the Ukrainian government said they've had 531 00:28:35.720 --> 00:28:40.960 something like twenty thousand email twenty thousand applications to join 532 00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:46.039 the new International Legion. I think majority of that by 533 00:28:46.119 --> 00:28:48.920 what they meant that was the twenty thousand emailed expressions 534 00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:52.119 of interest, but it was still a significant number. I 535 00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:54.480 think the first ones I met, I didn't actually meet 536 00:28:54.559 --> 00:28:56.799 them physically because a lot of them wanted to keep 537 00:28:56.839 --> 00:29:00.319 themselves fairly low profile because they were worried about getting 538 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:03.319 tracked by the Russians, and sometimes one didn't want people 539 00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:05.119 to know at home that they were there, because not 540 00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:07.799 all of them had actually told them their families that 541 00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:08.400 they were going. 542 00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:12.400 You know, I spoke to a few on the phone. 543 00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:17.880 A lot of them were ex British soldiers, mainly people 544 00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:21.359 who were younger actually, and I think quite a lot 545 00:29:21.400 --> 00:29:25.079 who had missed out on the Iraqi Afghanistan and who 546 00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:27.559 saw this as a as a chance to put their 547 00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:32.880 skills to the test. And in that sense, soldiering is 548 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:36.480 a pretty unique profession because you can spend your life 549 00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:40.880 training in soldiering and never get your skills. You know, 550 00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:43.279 the chance to put your skills to the test is 551 00:29:43.400 --> 00:29:47.480 like being a surgeon who never operates, foreign correspondent who 552 00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:50.559 never goes to cover the war, that sort of thing, 553 00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:53.680 you know. So there was a strong that there was 554 00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:55.720 a strong element of that people wanted to see with 555 00:29:56.119 --> 00:29:59.279 their skills were up to it. There were also more seasoned, 556 00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:03.880 you know, combat veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan who wanted 557 00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:05.759 to see what it was like to fight a peer army, 558 00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:09.839 you know where you know, it would be the Russians 559 00:30:09.880 --> 00:30:13.799 this time, rather than coalition forces that held all the aces. 560 00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:17.200 So that there was that element, and then there was 561 00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:20.920 also just quite a lot of people who had never 562 00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:24.279 fought before, or if they did have military experience, you know, 563 00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:27.519 what was limited to you know, driving trucks in in 564 00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:29.680 logistics squadrons. 565 00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:29.680 And things like that. 566 00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:34.880 Who you know who again wanted you know, wanted to 567 00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:37.960 see what combat was like. And I think it would 568 00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:40.400 be fair to say for most of them, if not 569 00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:42.880 all of them, that was also just drawn by the cause. 570 00:30:43.799 --> 00:30:44.519 You know, this was a. 571 00:30:47.559 --> 00:30:50.880 Pretty unique war in the you know, for the first 572 00:30:50.920 --> 00:30:53.279 time since World War Two, really it felt like a 573 00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:56.640 just war with a clear body and a clear goody 574 00:30:56.720 --> 00:31:02.119 in Zelenski and with with echoes of the land grab 575 00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:04.799 that hit the Maid that started World War Two when 576 00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:07.799 he invaded Poland and the Czech Republic. A lot of 577 00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:10.559 people saying like, you know, I don't really want to 578 00:31:10.599 --> 00:31:13.319 come and fight, particularly, but I feel it's my duty 579 00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:17.039 as a soldier and someone with someone with with the 580 00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:20.680 relevant military skills. I'm gonna feel shit if I stay 581 00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:26.799 at home in London or New York or anywhere while 582 00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:30.680 there are Ukrainians out there fighting and dying. Partly because 583 00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:33.359 we know that this may, this may only, this may 584 00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:37.720 be the start of a bigger operation against other parts 585 00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:41.000 of Europe. And also it's if he succeeds, if he's 586 00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:42.839 not opposed, it will be the end of the the 587 00:31:43.160 --> 00:31:45.640 you know, the rules based order as we know it, 588 00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:50.480 and as a as a military equipped individual, I feel. 589 00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:51.440 It's my job to go out there. 590 00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:55.839 So those were the kind of motivations that were involved, 591 00:31:55.880 --> 00:32:00.279 although for a lot of them, you know, there were 592 00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:04.839 other factors, personal factors as well. A lot of them had, 593 00:32:05.079 --> 00:32:10.079 you know, civilian lives that they weren't particularly enjoying jobs 594 00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:12.759 that they found on fulfilling personal lives. 595 00:32:12.839 --> 00:32:15.720 That's you know, marriages that were sometimes on the rocks. 596 00:32:16.039 --> 00:32:18.359 A few people, you know, were on the run from 597 00:32:18.400 --> 00:32:21.200 the law or had been in trouble with the law 598 00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:23.200 in the past and wanted to kind of wipe the 599 00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:26.759 slate clean, which is something you also noticed with you know, 600 00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:30.079 people who went out to fight for ISIS as jihadists. 601 00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:32.839 That's the thing, you know, the sense of I've not 602 00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:35.799 led a decent life. Well, I've led a bad life. 603 00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:38.319 This is the chance for me to kind of try 604 00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:42.000 and you know, rectify that a bit. So you have 605 00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:45.680 a wide range, a very colorful range of people's science 606 00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:48.680 joining up, and that was one of the reasons I 607 00:32:48.759 --> 00:32:49.680 wanted to write the book. 608 00:32:49.799 --> 00:32:51.000 Really, it's it's. 609 00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:54.279 Partly an account of the combat that they faced and 610 00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:56.119 their experiences on the front line. 611 00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:57.880 That is obviously primarily what it is. 612 00:32:58.759 --> 00:33:01.480 It also tries to be narrative of the first three 613 00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:03.279 years of the war, so you get that as a 614 00:33:03.400 --> 00:33:05.680 kind of thrown in for free, as it were if 615 00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:09.400 you read the book. But it's also trying to describe 616 00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:12.039 what the you know what why these people go out there, 617 00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:15.079 and what it is about life in their home countries 618 00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:19.119 in America or the UK that they feel is lacking, 619 00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:24.319 you know, in their own you know, and that for 620 00:33:24.759 --> 00:33:26.480 quite a few of them, I think that there's what 621 00:33:26.599 --> 00:33:30.920 I would call the sort of fight club element to it, 622 00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:36.440 as in the film The Book starring Brad Pitt, where 623 00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:40.200 you have a generation of men brought up these days 624 00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:43.759 in the United States and certainly in Britain, where they've 625 00:33:43.799 --> 00:33:45.839 known you know, the countries have known peace really for 626 00:33:46.039 --> 00:33:48.519 largely for more or less for eighty years, and they 627 00:33:48.559 --> 00:33:51.279 don't really feel like there's you know, many existential challenges 628 00:33:51.559 --> 00:33:55.160 left in life, that life is too too molly coddle, 629 00:33:55.240 --> 00:33:58.079 too soft, and they want to know whether they can 630 00:33:58.200 --> 00:34:02.519 face up to the kind of hardships their forefathers faced 631 00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:05.480 in World War two or World War One. You know, 632 00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:11.079 they've seen it in you know, programs like uh oh, 633 00:34:11.119 --> 00:34:11.880 what's it called the. 634 00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:15.840 Sorry my mom is the brothers? 635 00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:19.440 Yet you know they you know they've they've got relatives 636 00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:22.280 who you know, fought in that war in World War two, 637 00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:25.679 or they might have vote. In America's case, well it 638 00:34:25.800 --> 00:34:29.719 was in Vietnam, and it's not a sense of what's 639 00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:30.599 it like to fight in. 640 00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:33.440 A real, a proper grown up war. Can I handle it? 641 00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:34.480 Here's a chance. 642 00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:40.079 There was a very motley crew that showed up for 643 00:34:40.199 --> 00:34:44.039 this international legion Especially, it sounds like early on in 644 00:34:44.119 --> 00:34:46.400 the war and you have a chapter you talk about 645 00:34:46.440 --> 00:34:49.920 the screamers. I think you guys call them waltz. You know, 646 00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:53.159 people are presenting to be someone they're not. And then 647 00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:56.880 there's this ballistic missile strike that kind of separated the 648 00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:57.760 wheat from the cheft. 649 00:34:57.800 --> 00:35:03.840 It sounded like, yeah, uh so that when the legionnaires 650 00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:06.880 first came across the border, a lot of them were 651 00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:11.599 told to deploy or sorry to to go to a 652 00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:14.679 base at a place called Yavarev near the Polish border. 653 00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:17.760 It's actually a base that was used prior to the 654 00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:21.559 war by as a kind of native training base. 655 00:35:23.000 --> 00:35:26.559 And you know, so there's I think there's probably about 656 00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:28.840 a couple of thousand of them pitched up there at 657 00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:32.280 the at the beginning of the war, all sort of 658 00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:35.119 sitting there waiting, you know, for orders, waiting to get 659 00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:38.960 trained up. And yes, as you say, some of them 660 00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:42.920 were you know, fairly competent volunteers with proven military records, 661 00:35:43.400 --> 00:35:45.079 and some of them were not. You had quite a 662 00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:47.480 lot of watermittees, I fantasists. 663 00:35:48.360 --> 00:35:49.039 You had quite a. 664 00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:53.280 Lot who so called screamers, I people who had no 665 00:35:53.480 --> 00:35:56.880 military training at all, but who bullshited a lot that 666 00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:00.639 they had you know, previous records as you know, Navy 667 00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:04.719 Seals or Delta Force or sas. And then who would 668 00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:07.880 go up run off screaming the moment they action started. 669 00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:12.880 And yeah, I mean according to some of the volunteers 670 00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:14.880 I spoke to for the book, you could kind of 671 00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:17.840 see these fantasists a mile off, you know that they 672 00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:21.440 all wore kind of berets and cat badges that had 673 00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:24.599 you know, insignias that you know, nobody actually seen before, 674 00:36:25.239 --> 00:36:28.320 and they would often talk about, you know, various missions 675 00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:31.519 they'd been on, you know, inevitably with the CIA Delta 676 00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:33.320 Force works a bit like I can't really talk about 677 00:36:33.320 --> 00:36:35.880 it too much, but it was, you know, it was 678 00:36:35.960 --> 00:36:38.800 real harsh hush stuff. But you know, and you sort 679 00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:41.559 of think, well, it was that harsh shush, why why 680 00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:43.880 is it not classified? You know what, why are you 681 00:36:43.960 --> 00:36:44.679 even mentioning it? 682 00:36:46.280 --> 00:36:47.639 So that there was there was, there was. 683 00:36:47.719 --> 00:36:49.280 There was quite a lot of those sorts of people, 684 00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:51.920 and it was a big worry for the more regular 685 00:36:52.039 --> 00:36:56.199 competent legionnaires to see these people having turned up because 686 00:36:56.559 --> 00:37:00.679 the Ukrainian military authorities didn't really have any means of 687 00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:04.519 vetting people at that particular point. Because you know, if 688 00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:08.599 you've got normally, when you go to warrior fighting alongside 689 00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:11.599 other guys you've been with for years and years, you've 690 00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:14.400 trained alongside, you know their strengths, you know their weaknesses. 691 00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:16.880 Here you're being lined up to fight along with a 692 00:37:16.920 --> 00:37:20.159 whole load of people who are tilting strangers anyway, some 693 00:37:20.360 --> 00:37:25.559 of whom seem like complete wat jobs. And then yeah, 694 00:37:25.599 --> 00:37:27.119 the other the other problem with a lot of these 695 00:37:27.159 --> 00:37:28.960 people was that they had no sort of sense of 696 00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:34.159 you know, secure secure comms at all, no, you know, 697 00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:38.039 no situational awareness. They'd be posting TikTok videos of them 698 00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:41.519 sort of saying yo hanging here at Yavarev or whatever, 699 00:37:42.679 --> 00:37:45.519 and sending all kinds of you know, messages to you 700 00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:49.199 know on the social media saying where they were, and 701 00:37:50.519 --> 00:37:56.360 yeah about about on about March the fourteenth, I think 702 00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:59.400 it was or something. One night at that particular base, 703 00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:02.519 the rush Is hit it with a series of missiles, 704 00:38:02.599 --> 00:38:07.840 hypersonic missiles, big ones, and you know, they clearly identified 705 00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:11.599 this place as a as a haunt of international legionnaires. 706 00:38:12.159 --> 00:38:15.719 By some miracle, I think only one legionaire if that 707 00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:19.480 was killed. A large number of Ukrainians were killed in 708 00:38:19.559 --> 00:38:25.039 a in a neighboring barracks. But as a result of that, 709 00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:27.800 a lot of the it was something of a wake 710 00:38:27.880 --> 00:38:30.960 up call. A lot of the legionnaires then decided and 711 00:38:31.159 --> 00:38:32.400 actually I don't really fancy this. 712 00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:36.280 I feel a bit out my league. And it was widely. 713 00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:38.880 Presumed that the reason the Russians had managed to hit 714 00:38:38.920 --> 00:38:41.920 this place was because there was so much digital traffic 715 00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:45.119 on the internet that they you know, they've been able 716 00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:48.039 to easily pinpoint where it was all the foreigners mobile 717 00:38:48.079 --> 00:38:50.840 phones and so on. Personally, I think they could have 718 00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:53.159 probably worked it out anyway, just because it was a 719 00:38:53.639 --> 00:38:55.519 it was an obvious place for all the foreigners to 720 00:38:55.599 --> 00:38:57.960 go to. But certainly yes, as you say that, that 721 00:38:58.159 --> 00:39:03.800 kind of slightly sort of sifted the week from the chaff. 722 00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:06.920 A lot of people left deciding, you know, that this 723 00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:10.880 was not for them, but you know, probably unbalance more. 724 00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:14.719 Of them stayed. But that was certainly very much a 725 00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:17.239 kind of a baptism of fire for a lot of them. 726 00:39:18.559 --> 00:39:21.280 Hey, guys, I'm Jack Murphy here at the team House, 727 00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:23.480 and today I want to tell you about the sponsor 728 00:39:23.559 --> 00:39:28.719 for tonight's show. Mars Men. This is a natural testosterone 729 00:39:28.760 --> 00:39:31.559 support supplement. I take it. I've been taking it for 730 00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:33.719 about the last five weeks now, and I'm starting to 731 00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:37.840 notice a difference. 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Please show support for 752 00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:49.159 the show and tell them that the teamhouse sent you. 753 00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:50.800 Thank you everyone. 754 00:40:53.679 --> 00:40:57.880 You profile a lot of these foreign fighters that came 755 00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:01.639 over there. Some of them were professional soldiers, served in 756 00:41:01.719 --> 00:41:04.679 the Paros. One of the one guy with a Sandhurst 757 00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:09.280 graduate as I recall. But then there's also like another 758 00:41:09.320 --> 00:41:11.119 guy who was like grew up on a farm in 759 00:41:11.199 --> 00:41:12.880 Scotland and just wanted to get it on. 760 00:41:14.079 --> 00:41:17.960 Yeah, yeah, that was Douglas Cartner who was Yeah, he 761 00:41:18.039 --> 00:41:21.320 had no military experience at all. I think he wanted 762 00:41:21.400 --> 00:41:25.199 to join the US Marine, wanted to join the Royal 763 00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:28.800 Marines or the commandos when he was when he was 764 00:41:28.840 --> 00:41:32.000 a kid. But he'd he'd you know, had a problem 765 00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:36.920 with a shoulder or something like that during the qualification process, 766 00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:40.480 so that had kind of ruined his dream of joining 767 00:41:40.519 --> 00:41:43.400 the military. He became a tractor engineer instead, had a 768 00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:46.679 perfectly happy life, but he always felt there was something missing. 769 00:41:47.320 --> 00:41:50.239 And I think, you know, normally, if you were a 770 00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:52.760 twenty something in the UK and you want, you know, 771 00:41:52.920 --> 00:41:56.679 thrills and kicks, you you go off, maybe have a 772 00:41:56.800 --> 00:41:59.679 gap year around the world, travel to Asia and India 773 00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:01.800 and the Far East, that sort of thing. But if 774 00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:04.800 you've set your heart on being a commander or a 775 00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:06.920 member of the ESAs, that's not really going to be 776 00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:10.920 much of a substitute. So yeah, when the war came along, 777 00:42:11.079 --> 00:42:13.239 he's just sort of thought, shall I do it? 778 00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:15.159 You know, why not? This is my this is my 779 00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:18.440 one and only chance. And off he went. 780 00:42:18.599 --> 00:42:22.360 Yeah, undeterred by the fact that, you know, he didn't 781 00:42:22.360 --> 00:42:25.920 have any military experience, undeterred by the fact that the 782 00:42:26.039 --> 00:42:29.000 Ukrainian embassy had told him no, might just just stay 783 00:42:29.039 --> 00:42:31.199 at home and you know, do a bit of charity 784 00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:32.519 work back in the. 785 00:42:32.639 --> 00:42:33.400 UK if you want. 786 00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:36.039 Undeterred by the fact that his parents said to him, 787 00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:39.159 you know, your bloody daft, you know you'll get killed, 788 00:42:40.599 --> 00:42:41.079 and you know. 789 00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:45.000 In finness to him, he played it fairly, fairly carefully. 790 00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:50.159 He started out with just a volunteer humanitarian unit, getting 791 00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:53.719 getting to know that the ropes, getting to know the 792 00:42:53.800 --> 00:42:57.599 ground in Ukraine a bit, then moved to a some 793 00:42:57.800 --> 00:43:00.320 sort of medical unit where they had an number of 794 00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:04.000 soldiers or ex soldiers who were doing sort of humanitarian 795 00:43:04.079 --> 00:43:06.719 medical work a bit close to the front lines, and 796 00:43:06.840 --> 00:43:09.239 then from there eventually moved to a sort of medical 797 00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:11.719 unit that was a combat unit of some sort of 798 00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:16.840 I remember rightly. And yeah, eventually, you know, a few 799 00:43:16.920 --> 00:43:21.239 months in, found himself heading towards the front lines, you know, 800 00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:26.039 ready for combat with a with with the Ukrainian legion 801 00:43:26.519 --> 00:43:30.519 that took a large number of foreigners. And yeah, we're 802 00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:32.519 sort of trying to describe what it's like for him 803 00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:34.760 when he when he's sort of first heads into combat, 804 00:43:35.239 --> 00:43:37.639 is with all this all this sort of other piles, 805 00:43:37.679 --> 00:43:42.280 many of whom are likewise rookies, and there's a sort 806 00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:44.960 of sense of like, you know, finally we've got the 807 00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:47.480 chance to get here. We're sort of dreading it and 808 00:43:47.559 --> 00:43:49.480 yet we're longing for it at the same time. 809 00:43:50.360 --> 00:43:51.400 Then he gets to the. 810 00:43:53.320 --> 00:43:56.639 To the to the base or the trenches where you 811 00:43:56.719 --> 00:43:58.920 know where he's going to be based, and he's kind 812 00:43:58.920 --> 00:44:01.000 of expecting to get to right, you go over there, 813 00:44:01.360 --> 00:44:03.280 you point your gun there, and you know all that, 814 00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:05.760 and he's just left on his own in a trench, 815 00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:09.199 you know, not knowing what to do with this machine gun, 816 00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:11.760 a p k M, which is like a big belt 817 00:44:11.800 --> 00:44:15.119 fed thing, a bit like a general purpose machine gun 818 00:44:15.320 --> 00:44:18.440 that he's been trained on, but he has no idea 819 00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:20.400 where the front line is, you know which direction it is. 820 00:44:21.639 --> 00:44:27.199 And then out the blue, several soldiers start walking towards him. 821 00:44:28.840 --> 00:44:32.159 Because of the light at that time of day, because 822 00:44:32.199 --> 00:44:34.360 he was in some in some woods, you couldn't see 823 00:44:34.400 --> 00:44:37.039 whether they were Russians or Ukrainians, but they were. They 824 00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:39.440 were more wondering, you know, with their guns in a 825 00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:42.599 sort of in a manner that you know, didn't look 826 00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:47.360 terribly relaxed, looked like they meant business. And so he 827 00:44:47.400 --> 00:44:50.280 starts thinking, right, that was my guys are they're the enemy. 828 00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:52.360 And as they get nearer and near, he's some things 829 00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:54.320 were like I'm gonna have to do something. You know 830 00:44:54.320 --> 00:44:57.480 I'm gonna have to shoot if these guys are Russian soldiers, 831 00:44:57.559 --> 00:45:00.880 because the moment they see me here my trench, you 832 00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:04.159 know they're going to start shooting. So they get closer 833 00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:06.760 and closer. He's hoping they'll, you know, where, you'll be 834 00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:09.199 able to work out who they are. Eventually he's on 835 00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:12.639 the point of firing a warning burst over their heads, 836 00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:15.199 which I think would almost certainly have led to them 837 00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:19.239 firing back when one of them waved at him and said, ah, yeah, 838 00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:23.039 how are you doing in English or something, and you know, 839 00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:25.800 he's sort of like described sort of wiping the sweat 840 00:45:26.199 --> 00:45:31.800 off his brow and sort of pulling his hand off 841 00:45:31.880 --> 00:45:33.800 the trigger grip, which is kind of, you know, just 842 00:45:33.880 --> 00:45:36.760 about shaking by that time. And it turns out to 843 00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:40.159 be the guy who's going to be command, his new commander, 844 00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:43.280 who basically just almost wiped out that very first but 845 00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:44.599 you know, that very first. 846 00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:47.559 Day, simply because nobody had told him which direction the 847 00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:48.320 point is gone in. 848 00:45:49.639 --> 00:45:52.039 I'll mention that because it's sort of symptomatic of the 849 00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:56.320 kind of unexpected chaos you governed the Ukrainian flunt lines. 850 00:45:57.119 --> 00:45:58.880 People imagine that it's going to be a nice straight 851 00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:01.880 line it's not Neander's in and out like a river, 852 00:46:02.639 --> 00:46:05.480 and it changes within the hours, and quite often people 853 00:46:05.559 --> 00:46:07.800 don't really know whether they're sort of, you know, the 854 00:46:07.880 --> 00:46:10.079 Russians are ahead of them, or perhaps a little bit 855 00:46:10.159 --> 00:46:12.480 beside them or behind them or or whatever. 856 00:46:13.800 --> 00:46:16.719 So, yeah, that was I think it's something of a 857 00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:18.920 baptism of fire for him. Definitely. 858 00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:23.599 Another interesting person you profile on the book is a 859 00:46:24.360 --> 00:46:28.440 Vietnamese American military veteran. Can you tell us about him? 860 00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:29.679 He had a very unique story. 861 00:46:31.199 --> 00:46:34.039 Yeah, I think his name a while since I've reread 862 00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:35.800 the book, but I think his name was Hugh Lee. 863 00:46:37.159 --> 00:46:40.320 And yeah, he was a Vietnamese American. His family had 864 00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:42.800 come over at the end of the Vietnam War to 865 00:46:42.880 --> 00:46:46.320 the US. He you know, was very much of the 866 00:46:46.400 --> 00:46:49.000 opinion that America had given his family a decent life 867 00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:53.960 and that you know, when when when other when other 868 00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:58.480 parts of the world suffered, you know, suffered military aggression, 869 00:46:59.320 --> 00:47:02.599 that you know, he had a duty to help them, 870 00:47:03.400 --> 00:47:05.400 just as he'd been helped or his family had been helped. 871 00:47:05.960 --> 00:47:08.840 So at the time, he was running a restaurant in Columbia, 872 00:47:08.920 --> 00:47:12.480 of all places, having retired from the US Marines, and 873 00:47:12.639 --> 00:47:17.639 he'd served in Afghanistan as a command center sort of 874 00:47:18.199 --> 00:47:21.280 technical operator more than a frontline soldier. But you know, 875 00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:24.159 he'd still done US Marines training. He was a capable 876 00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:27.760 and competent operator, but you know, he wouldn't call himself 877 00:47:27.800 --> 00:47:32.199 any kind of you know, rambow infantry kind of guy. 878 00:47:32.360 --> 00:47:35.800 You know, didn't sort of over sell his skills. Anyway, 879 00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:37.840 he decided to go out. 880 00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:38.760 I think he was. 881 00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:44.840 Similar to a lot of the American soldiers out who 882 00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:49.519 volunteered for Ukraine in that he having served in Afghanistan, 883 00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:53.480 he had been quite disappointed by the pullout in twenty 884 00:47:53.599 --> 00:47:57.599 twenty one of US sportsters from Afghanistan, by the collapse 885 00:47:57.679 --> 00:48:00.400 of the Afghan army, and that had made him feel like, 886 00:48:01.239 --> 00:48:04.400 you know, we spent twenty years there, all that blood 887 00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:09.039 and treasure invested, and yet you know, when it came 888 00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:11.400 to the moment we pulled out, the Afghan Army collapsed, 889 00:48:11.440 --> 00:48:13.480 and was what was the point of supporting these people. 890 00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:15.519 I know the story is more complicated than that, as 891 00:48:15.559 --> 00:48:17.480 does he, but that that was the kind of the 892 00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:19.760 you know, the rough headline, and one of the things 893 00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:23.039 he felt. And he saw the Ukrainians though, you know, 894 00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:26.719 actually fighting tooth and nail against the Russians, and he 895 00:48:26.840 --> 00:48:29.199 sort of thought, yeah, that these people are worth fighting, 896 00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:32.159 these people are worth supporting because they're fighting on their 897 00:48:32.199 --> 00:48:34.960 own accord, that they're not even you know, asking us 898 00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:39.280 to come in officially, you know, and that they're worth 899 00:48:39.320 --> 00:48:42.239 helping and there'll be a useful future ally for America 900 00:48:42.320 --> 00:48:43.199 in the future. 901 00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:46.039 So off he went. 902 00:48:47.079 --> 00:48:49.079 Hugh did not have a good experience, and he was 903 00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:52.039 at Yavarev when the missiles landed, but he didn't let 904 00:48:52.119 --> 00:48:56.440 that deter them. However, he didn't he didn't have a 905 00:48:56.840 --> 00:48:59.800 very pleasant time with the with the legionnaires when he 906 00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:03.719 just met them. He's described bumping into a bunch of 907 00:49:03.800 --> 00:49:08.000 guys who he uh, who he summed up a Special 908 00:49:08.119 --> 00:49:14.199 Forces washouts, basically sort of very muscly, rambo rambo looking 909 00:49:14.320 --> 00:49:17.800 guys who he reckoned were sort of high on steroids 910 00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:20.880 or something, who were quite aggressive and dismissive of him. 911 00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:24.599 And again, you know, just that feeling like I don't 912 00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:26.559 want to be stuck in the trench with these guys. 913 00:49:27.199 --> 00:49:31.039 I'll feel more scared of them than the Russians. And 914 00:49:31.320 --> 00:49:34.000 then also on his his very first deployment, he was 915 00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:37.239 said to erpen in the north, the northwest suburb of 916 00:49:37.400 --> 00:49:40.760 Kiev where the Russians were pushing in. During that first 917 00:49:40.880 --> 00:49:44.840 month in Kiev, his first assignment was to was to 918 00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:51.519 pick up a corpse from behind enemy lines. A Georgian 919 00:49:51.639 --> 00:49:54.760 fighter is a fighter from the from the volunteer from 920 00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:58.760 the the ex Soviet state of Georgia who'd been killed. 921 00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:03.960 And him, Hugh and several other about a dozen other 922 00:50:04.039 --> 00:50:08.360 guys went through through the combats area to actually pick 923 00:50:08.440 --> 00:50:11.039 this this guy's body up, the Georgian's body up. He 924 00:50:11.119 --> 00:50:15.079 was a big, heavy guy, fifteen stone maybe, and they 925 00:50:15.320 --> 00:50:19.719 spent the next seven hours stretching him back through the 926 00:50:19.880 --> 00:50:23.320 enemy lines, through you know, mortar fire and and you know, 927 00:50:23.440 --> 00:50:28.800 potential sniper areas and potential minefields, back to you know, 928 00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:31.760 back back to the rear with lines, the Ukrainian lines. 929 00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:34.440 And I don't think it was so much the you know, 930 00:50:34.519 --> 00:50:37.800 the actual threat of you know, the the threat of 931 00:50:38.320 --> 00:50:41.559 armed danger, but the actual weight of the corpse was 932 00:50:41.920 --> 00:50:43.360 was made it really really hard. 933 00:50:44.320 --> 00:50:45.360 They only had a kind of. 934 00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:47.960 They had a soft stretch of one of those ones 935 00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:50.800 who wait that you can like almost like a tar paul, 936 00:50:50.840 --> 00:50:53.880 and with handles that used primarily for getting people out 937 00:50:53.880 --> 00:50:57.000 of the buildings, which which are more flexible, which but 938 00:50:57.119 --> 00:50:59.880 which make the actual task of carrying somebody far harder. 939 00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:03.239 And they said, you know, every one hundred yards or so, 940 00:51:03.360 --> 00:51:07.239 he was getting exhausted, and they were also kept dropping 941 00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:12.400 the guy, which didn't feel very respectful. And then by 942 00:51:12.519 --> 00:51:14.559 by the time he got back to the end, back 943 00:51:14.639 --> 00:51:18.639 to the Ukrainian lines, he was exhausted. He felt totally 944 00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:21.199 somewhat out of shape for what he was being tasked 945 00:51:21.199 --> 00:51:24.039 to do, as well somewhat rattled by, you know, his 946 00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:28.280 experiences with these other legionnaires early on, and he just 947 00:51:28.360 --> 00:51:31.239 burst into tears and he just realized, I cannot cope 948 00:51:31.280 --> 00:51:31.519 with us. 949 00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:35.960 And as a result of that, he then went home. 950 00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:38.840 And I mentioned that case in the book. 951 00:51:38.840 --> 00:51:41.320 I think just partly just sort of show that not 952 00:51:41.400 --> 00:51:43.800 everybody emerges a hero out of these things. Are not 953 00:51:43.880 --> 00:51:47.679 a hero in a conventional sense. You know, Hugh did 954 00:51:47.800 --> 00:51:50.760 still do his bit, he just decided it wasn't for him. 955 00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:54.079 But also just I think to sort of show to 956 00:51:54.199 --> 00:51:58.599 people that, you know, wartime experiences, as with Douglas Cartner, 957 00:51:58.639 --> 00:52:00.800 you know, the guy who you know was told which 958 00:52:00.880 --> 00:52:03.840 direction the fire is gone, and wartime experience is never 959 00:52:03.880 --> 00:52:06.280 going to be what you expect them. You know, he 960 00:52:06.440 --> 00:52:08.360 was expecting to be there in a trench fire and 961 00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:11.280 a gun and in steadies humph, and of guy's body 962 00:52:12.119 --> 00:52:14.719 for seven miles, you know, staring at a dead man 963 00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:18.320 in you know, staring in at a dead man's eyes 964 00:52:18.719 --> 00:52:22.639 the whole time, be very very closely confronted with with 965 00:52:22.760 --> 00:52:26.920 the consequences of war and yet not actually participating in it, 966 00:52:27.000 --> 00:52:29.719 not getting the kind of adrenaline that you normally would. 967 00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:33.559 She's quite an unusual perhaps introduction to you know, a 968 00:52:33.639 --> 00:52:39.559 conflict zone, and you know, it just sort of struck me. 969 00:52:39.639 --> 00:52:42.960 That again also underlined how different the war in Ukraine 970 00:52:43.159 --> 00:52:46.639 was to the one in Afghanistan where he had been before. 971 00:52:47.039 --> 00:52:50.920 If soldiers were killed, then there were helicopter lifted out. Usually, 972 00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:53.960 you know, their bodies might have had to drag them, 973 00:52:54.119 --> 00:52:57.320 you know for you know, stretch them for a short 974 00:52:57.440 --> 00:52:59.320 time or something like that, but it would it would 975 00:52:59.320 --> 00:53:02.000 be relatively usual for anyone to have had the kind 976 00:53:02.039 --> 00:53:06.320 of experience that he had in Ukraine, Whereas in Ukraine, 977 00:53:06.320 --> 00:53:09.960 you know, the world who helicopters flying around anywhere, There 978 00:53:10.039 --> 00:53:13.519 wasn't that sort of Kazavak system and so situations like 979 00:53:13.639 --> 00:53:16.760 he had were actually very common and often. 980 00:53:16.440 --> 00:53:17.320 Very very difficult. 981 00:53:17.320 --> 00:53:20.320 You know, most of the people I spoke to who 982 00:53:20.360 --> 00:53:22.480 did stretchering jobs said it was, you know, the most 983 00:53:22.519 --> 00:53:26.079 exhausting thing they've ever done, you know, on the battlefield. 984 00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:30.719 There's another guy, you profile who had a bad experience, 985 00:53:30.760 --> 00:53:32.800 as I recall, and he got to a certain point 986 00:53:32.960 --> 00:53:34.440 was kind of like, screw this, I'm going to go 987 00:53:34.519 --> 00:53:36.679 guard this diamond mind in the Congo and make some 988 00:53:36.800 --> 00:53:38.440 real money and then maybe come back. 989 00:53:39.199 --> 00:53:45.320 Yeah. That was Christopher Perriman, known as pez who who 990 00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:47.440 was you know, a highly qualified soldier. 991 00:53:47.519 --> 00:53:50.840 He fought in Iraq in you know, in the Second 992 00:53:50.880 --> 00:53:56.800 Gulf War. He was a trained sniper, and yeah, he 993 00:53:56.880 --> 00:53:59.719 went to Ukraine thinking, you know, very much like this, 994 00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:03.280 this is my job as a soldier. I you know, 995 00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:06.880 I've I've got the skills, I will i will be 996 00:54:06.920 --> 00:54:10.239 able to help train Ukrainians and save some other guy 997 00:54:10.360 --> 00:54:12.800 from losing his life because of his his lack of 998 00:54:13.039 --> 00:54:15.320 you know, his his lack of aptitude for the task. 999 00:54:16.719 --> 00:54:20.199 So yeah, Unfortunately, he, like like a lot of people, 1000 00:54:20.280 --> 00:54:23.119 when he got there, found that the Ukrainian military system 1001 00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:29.039 wasn't really capable of you know, processing all the volunteers 1002 00:54:29.079 --> 00:54:32.000 that were coming in, including the experienced people like him. 1003 00:54:32.840 --> 00:54:34.280 Zelenski had not told his. 1004 00:54:34.480 --> 00:54:38.400 Generals before creating beforehand that he was creating the legions, 1005 00:54:38.480 --> 00:54:41.840 so he was blindsiding them, and they didn't really have 1006 00:54:41.920 --> 00:54:46.400 the organizational capacity to, you know, to put all these 1007 00:54:46.440 --> 00:54:49.599 people in barracks just as the war was starting to 1008 00:54:49.760 --> 00:54:52.400 train them up and to send them off in different 1009 00:54:52.639 --> 00:54:56.440 you know, big battalions and foreigners or whatever to the 1010 00:54:56.519 --> 00:54:59.280 front lines. So a lot of the soldiers, like pairs 1011 00:54:59.320 --> 00:55:03.000 found themselves was sitting around in the bases at places 1012 00:55:03.079 --> 00:55:07.719 like Javarev, where they're getting missiled. They're doing nothing. They're 1013 00:55:07.760 --> 00:55:11.239 just getting bored and paranoid and wondering how much longer 1014 00:55:11.239 --> 00:55:13.239 it's gonna take before they get sent to the front 1015 00:55:13.280 --> 00:55:16.039 lives keeping. They keep getting promised that, you know, they 1016 00:55:16.239 --> 00:55:19.760 don't get sent soon, and nothing happens. And he, like 1017 00:55:19.800 --> 00:55:21.559 a lot of soldiers that ended up just kind of 1018 00:55:21.599 --> 00:55:23.199 taking matters into his own hands. 1019 00:55:24.440 --> 00:55:25.639 He teamed up with a. 1020 00:55:25.639 --> 00:55:29.039 Bunch of other guys, but maybe a dozen of them, 1021 00:55:29.320 --> 00:55:30.840 all for them had sort of got to know each 1022 00:55:30.880 --> 00:55:32.920 other during all this periods sitting around waiting in the 1023 00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:35.519 barracks sort of worked out, Yeah, this guy doesn't look 1024 00:55:35.559 --> 00:55:39.119 too look sensible, that guy doesn't look too much like 1025 00:55:39.159 --> 00:55:43.119 a water emittee, so on and so forth, and yeah, 1026 00:55:43.159 --> 00:55:46.920 they they they would form these little units and then 1027 00:55:46.920 --> 00:55:50.519 they would try and bypass the leaching bureaucracy essentially just 1028 00:55:50.639 --> 00:55:54.920 go off and you know, tout their services around the 1029 00:55:55.000 --> 00:55:58.679 front lines, like like you know, laborers looking for work 1030 00:55:58.840 --> 00:56:01.880 really And usually what they'd do is that there'd be 1031 00:56:01.960 --> 00:56:04.280 one person who maybe spoke a bit of Russian or 1032 00:56:04.480 --> 00:56:09.159 Ukrainian who could do the introductions to certain commanders or 1033 00:56:09.280 --> 00:56:11.639 some guy who maybe knew a Ukrainian command or who 1034 00:56:11.719 --> 00:56:14.360 knew a man who knew a man, and they would 1035 00:56:14.400 --> 00:56:16.880 they would chase down those leads sometimes and hope in 1036 00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:19.000 the hope that one or two of those Ukrainian commanders 1037 00:56:19.000 --> 00:56:20.639 would say, yeah, I can use some guys. 1038 00:56:21.360 --> 00:56:23.159 You know, you can try us. We'll try you out 1039 00:56:23.159 --> 00:56:23.880 for a couple of weeks. 1040 00:56:24.079 --> 00:56:27.599 But it was very much on probation, and unfortunately, the 1041 00:56:28.039 --> 00:56:33.039 because there had been a few waltamities and bad apples already, 1042 00:56:33.480 --> 00:56:37.079 you know, sort of earning the leagion a bad reputation. 1043 00:56:37.599 --> 00:56:40.199 A lot of the Ukrainian commanders are actually quite unwilling 1044 00:56:40.599 --> 00:56:42.920 to take them, and they would find themselves just being 1045 00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:46.800 told thanks, but no thanks or whatever, and quite a 1046 00:56:46.840 --> 00:56:49.519 sort of unusual experience if you go to a war, 1047 00:56:50.079 --> 00:56:54.159 respecting the fight and then everybody's just saying, don't need you. 1048 00:56:54.239 --> 00:56:54.880 You know, we're good. 1049 00:56:55.920 --> 00:56:57.280 Yeah, normally, you. 1050 00:56:57.320 --> 00:56:59.920 Know, you hear a lot of stories in Militarist about 1051 00:57:00.119 --> 00:57:02.519 soldiers dreading the front line and trying to get out 1052 00:57:02.559 --> 00:57:04.880 of it. Here here it was the opposite, and people 1053 00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:07.400 sort of you know, hunting for the front lines, like 1054 00:57:07.480 --> 00:57:11.599 a kind of military Eldorado and has found himself in 1055 00:57:11.679 --> 00:57:15.599 that situation. I think they eventually got down at some 1056 00:57:15.719 --> 00:57:18.880 place in mick Alive in the South where they got 1057 00:57:18.920 --> 00:57:21.679 a little bit of action but nothing very much, just 1058 00:57:21.880 --> 00:57:26.039 sort of you know, and eventually he decided, look, I 1059 00:57:26.119 --> 00:57:29.519 can't keep you know, I can't stay here forever. I've 1060 00:57:29.519 --> 00:57:33.880 been here three months of running low on money and 1061 00:57:35.400 --> 00:57:37.960 payment wasn't very regular in the legion then it is now. 1062 00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:44.519 And so he went back to the UK and I think, yeah, 1063 00:57:45.440 --> 00:57:48.519 pursued a job guarding a diamond mine in Congod. I'm 1064 00:57:48.519 --> 00:57:50.280 not sure whether he ever got it or not, but 1065 00:57:50.480 --> 00:57:54.559 he did resurface again in October of that same year 1066 00:57:54.599 --> 00:57:57.960 of twenty twenty two and joined a unit that was 1067 00:57:58.440 --> 00:58:01.320 you know, offered much more scope for action, and they 1068 00:58:01.320 --> 00:58:04.599 were they were out in some islands down on the 1069 00:58:05.679 --> 00:58:10.760 in in southern Ukraine, on the on the Delta area 1070 00:58:10.880 --> 00:58:15.360 of the Dnipro River, Ukraine's main river, where there's lots 1071 00:58:15.400 --> 00:58:17.239 of islands at the mouth of the river as it 1072 00:58:17.360 --> 00:58:21.400 leads into the Black Sea, and on those islands, Russians 1073 00:58:21.440 --> 00:58:23.920 and the Ukrainians would often occupy one half, you know, 1074 00:58:24.000 --> 00:58:27.079 sort of rival halves of the islands, and it was 1075 00:58:27.440 --> 00:58:29.519 Pez's job and that of his team to sort of 1076 00:58:29.599 --> 00:58:33.639 try and keep you know, keep it retained their section 1077 00:58:33.800 --> 00:58:37.079 of the island. And pretty scary stuff because there's nowhere 1078 00:58:37.119 --> 00:58:39.519 to run to if you if you get stuck, you know, 1079 00:58:39.599 --> 00:58:41.199 there's there's not going to be a boat that's going 1080 00:58:41.280 --> 00:58:43.880 to let you off the island if you if if 1081 00:58:43.920 --> 00:58:47.559 the Russians start to do is start to really pile 1082 00:58:47.639 --> 00:58:51.159 the pressure on. And so yeah, he was there for 1083 00:58:51.239 --> 00:58:53.639 a few months. There was a few gunfights, and I 1084 00:58:53.719 --> 00:58:55.800 think he had one or two disagreements with his with 1085 00:58:55.920 --> 00:59:00.360 his colleagues occasionally when things went wrong. There's an account 1086 00:59:00.400 --> 00:59:05.000 of that when a gunfight goes wrong and Pears gets 1087 00:59:05.039 --> 00:59:07.920 blamed for not having his weapon there at the time. 1088 00:59:08.320 --> 00:59:11.599 There were reasons why that happened, But again I use 1089 00:59:11.679 --> 00:59:15.360 that example to sort of explain why, you know what, 1090 00:59:16.239 --> 00:59:19.760 he nearly let the fistfights afterwards, and again it's it's 1091 00:59:20.119 --> 00:59:21.719 what anybody else would have is just as a bad 1092 00:59:21.800 --> 00:59:24.360 day at the office with these guys is a you know, 1093 00:59:24.840 --> 00:59:25.960 a bad day at work where. 1094 00:59:25.800 --> 00:59:27.400 A few mistakes are made out of the side. 1095 00:59:27.880 --> 00:59:31.840 It leads to people potentially getting killed and feelings running very, 1096 00:59:31.960 --> 00:59:34.719 very high, especially when once again these people don't know 1097 00:59:34.840 --> 00:59:36.760 each other it. 1098 00:59:36.840 --> 00:59:40.519 Pears continued, but can you can you finish the story 1099 00:59:40.599 --> 00:59:43.760 about how he narrowly avoided capture because I remember he 1100 00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:46.800 like had to jump off a balcony or something like that. 1101 00:59:47.199 --> 00:59:49.920 Yeah, so, yeah, I can. I can plunge it in 1102 00:59:50.039 --> 00:59:50.960 a bit more detail. 1103 00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:54.639 They were They were basically in a house doing you know, 1104 00:59:54.880 --> 00:59:57.199 an op and observation point in a house on this 1105 00:59:57.360 --> 01:00:02.840 island one night, and a whole lot of Russians suddenly 1106 01:00:02.960 --> 01:00:07.039 surrounded them. It's not clear whether they actually surrounded them 1107 01:00:07.119 --> 01:00:09.880 knowing that they were there were legionnaires there, or that 1108 01:00:09.960 --> 01:00:14.199 there were Ukrainians there or whether they actually thought again, 1109 01:00:14.280 --> 01:00:17.679 this is the element of confusion on the battlefield, that 1110 01:00:17.800 --> 01:00:21.960 they these Russians actually thought it was a Russian occupied 1111 01:00:22.360 --> 01:00:26.760 op because apparently some Russian went knocked on the door 1112 01:00:27.440 --> 01:00:30.639 of the house, I think, expecting to be let in. 1113 01:00:31.920 --> 01:00:36.599 One of the other legionnaires inside challenged him with a password. 1114 01:00:36.880 --> 01:00:40.039 The Russian was unable to produce the password. At that 1115 01:00:40.159 --> 01:00:42.480 point they both realized that, you know, each other were 1116 01:00:42.599 --> 01:00:46.760 enemy forces, and I think one of the legionnaires fired 1117 01:00:47.039 --> 01:00:51.559 a burst down the down the stairway to keep the 1118 01:00:51.639 --> 01:00:54.719 Russians at bay. After that, all hell broke loose, as 1119 01:00:54.760 --> 01:00:58.440 you would imagine, and they were having there were there 1120 01:00:58.519 --> 01:01:01.039 was machine gun fire coming in through the windows, there 1121 01:01:01.079 --> 01:01:03.440 were smoke good aides coming through the windows. The Russians 1122 01:01:03.480 --> 01:01:08.519 were surrounding them, shouting them in English as well, shouting 1123 01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:11.599 come out, come out your bitches, and so on. So 1124 01:01:11.639 --> 01:01:13.800 it was clear that I think they'd identified them as 1125 01:01:14.199 --> 01:01:16.280 foreigners at that point and that they would obviously be 1126 01:01:16.920 --> 01:01:18.559 potentially quite a big prize. 1127 01:01:19.760 --> 01:01:22.599 A gun battle ensued for quite a long time. I 1128 01:01:22.679 --> 01:01:24.880 quite can't quite remember how long. 1129 01:01:24.960 --> 01:01:26.760 I don't think it was perhaps more than about half 1130 01:01:26.800 --> 01:01:29.159 an hour, but I think it probably seemed like forever 1131 01:01:29.239 --> 01:01:34.119 at the time. And eventually, as the as the upstairs 1132 01:01:34.199 --> 01:01:37.519 we were filled with tear gas and smoke grenade gas 1133 01:01:37.880 --> 01:01:41.360 that the Russians had chucked in pairs, sort of decided 1134 01:01:41.440 --> 01:01:43.280 that you know, it was you know, he couldn't see 1135 01:01:43.320 --> 01:01:47.079 his colleagues and his comrades anymore, and leapt out of 1136 01:01:47.159 --> 01:01:50.519 one of the windows, the upstairs window about twenty feet 1137 01:01:50.639 --> 01:01:54.519 nearly broke his ankle, smashed into aside, you know, the. 1138 01:01:56.480 --> 01:01:57.960 Wall of the building. 1139 01:01:58.039 --> 01:02:02.119 He just jumped out of, smashed his head up, and 1140 01:02:02.239 --> 01:02:05.599 then kind of basically ran off through the back gardens 1141 01:02:05.639 --> 01:02:09.360 of the house that he was in and somehow managed 1142 01:02:09.400 --> 01:02:13.400 to get to safety, and by some miracle when when 1143 01:02:13.400 --> 01:02:15.760 they were at the wrong they agreed Rendezvy point that 1144 01:02:15.840 --> 01:02:19.400 they would go to in eventualities like this, met up 1145 01:02:19.440 --> 01:02:22.000 with his comrades who who had also survived. Again, I 1146 01:02:22.039 --> 01:02:25.320 think they were also all like, was convinced that, you know, 1147 01:02:25.639 --> 01:02:29.280 everybody else was dead, and as it turned out, nobody 1148 01:02:29.320 --> 01:02:33.000 actually got killed in that particular incident. But I've watched 1149 01:02:33.159 --> 01:02:35.320 sort of video grabs something, I mean, you know, it's 1150 01:02:35.400 --> 01:02:39.119 absolutely terrifying, and of course the consequences of being caught 1151 01:02:39.199 --> 01:02:41.800 in that situation would have been you know, would have 1152 01:02:41.840 --> 01:02:44.519 been die. If you weren't killed, you'd have been taken 1153 01:02:44.599 --> 01:02:47.239 Russian prisoner of warning. I mean that is something that 1154 01:02:47.320 --> 01:02:49.400 happened to some of the other legionaires, which we can 1155 01:02:49.440 --> 01:02:50.559 perhaps talk about as well. 1156 01:02:51.159 --> 01:02:54.960 But yeah, Peirs continued there. 1157 01:02:55.400 --> 01:02:59.960 He parked the company with that particular unit and there 1158 01:03:01.320 --> 01:03:05.199 went joined another unit. And then in October twenty twenty three, 1159 01:03:06.800 --> 01:03:09.840 which I think was sort of later that same year, 1160 01:03:09.920 --> 01:03:13.440 after that gunfight on the island, he was on another 1161 01:03:13.519 --> 01:03:18.599 operation near Snake Island in the Black Sea and he 1162 01:03:18.760 --> 01:03:20.760 was killed by mortifier. 1163 01:03:20.840 --> 01:03:23.199 I believe. I don't know any more details than that. 1164 01:03:23.320 --> 01:03:25.920 Nothing ever else was ever released, but as you know, 1165 01:03:26.039 --> 01:03:31.000 the Ukrainians are often quite secretive about the details of 1166 01:03:31.079 --> 01:03:34.239 military operations when casualties have been sustained. 1167 01:03:36.000 --> 01:03:37.079 But yeah, he was. 1168 01:03:37.320 --> 01:03:39.880 He was one of one of a number of people 1169 01:03:39.920 --> 01:03:41.280 who are in the book who you know, who are 1170 01:03:41.360 --> 01:03:44.679 not you know, southly not around to have seen it 1171 01:03:45.199 --> 01:03:46.039 seen it published. 1172 01:03:47.920 --> 01:03:50.519 I do want to ask you about the guys who 1173 01:03:50.599 --> 01:03:54.079 were taken as prisoners of war. Those are some of 1174 01:03:54.159 --> 01:03:59.639 the crazier stories in this book. There were a couple 1175 01:03:59.679 --> 01:04:02.360 of differ for guys you profile I believe who were captured. 1176 01:04:03.119 --> 01:04:04.400 Can you tell us about them a bit? 1177 01:04:05.599 --> 01:04:08.400 Yeah, sure, I mean the I think there's three who 1178 01:04:08.480 --> 01:04:14.920 were profiled in the book. A British guy named Andrew Harding. Sorry, yes, 1179 01:04:15.000 --> 01:04:22.760 and Andrew Harding, Yes, so I may have to check 1180 01:04:22.840 --> 01:04:25.119 his name. Andrew will call him here from from now, 1181 01:04:25.119 --> 01:04:27.559 and it's been a while since I've read the book. 1182 01:04:28.360 --> 01:04:36.679 And then a two Americans, Alex Druki and Andy Queen, 1183 01:04:37.119 --> 01:04:39.639 who may be familiar to some of your listeners. They 1184 01:04:39.679 --> 01:04:47.000 were the first Americans to be taken captive in June 1185 01:04:47.039 --> 01:04:50.679 of twenty twenty two. And yeah, so Alex was a 1186 01:04:50.880 --> 01:04:54.079 was a was a classic legionnaire in many ways. He 1187 01:04:54.199 --> 01:04:58.800 had served in a rock as a top gunner in 1188 01:04:58.920 --> 01:05:03.400 about two thousand in Baghdad, which as anyone who's spent 1189 01:05:03.559 --> 01:05:05.639 time in Baghdad during those years, we'll know, it was 1190 01:05:05.920 --> 01:05:08.280 a very dangerous job. You're driving around in a humvey. 1191 01:05:08.719 --> 01:05:14.119 He scored in convoys and vps and generals, so you're 1192 01:05:14.239 --> 01:05:17.159 big target. And Alex's job was to be in the 1193 01:05:17.239 --> 01:05:20.679 lead humbie with a fifty cow, you know, so he 1194 01:05:21.039 --> 01:05:24.239 if anybody, if any snipers or car bombers or insurgent 1195 01:05:24.360 --> 01:05:27.239 gangs were waiting to try and take out the convoy. 1196 01:05:27.639 --> 01:05:32.039 Alex would probably be the first to know. So after 1197 01:05:32.159 --> 01:05:36.599 he came back from Iraq, he had quite bad PTSD 1198 01:05:38.119 --> 01:05:40.880 and he tried to get other civilian jobs. He tried 1199 01:05:40.920 --> 01:05:44.119 to become a police officer, for example, and found that, 1200 01:05:44.760 --> 01:05:47.199 you know, I think partly because of his PTSD, he 1201 01:05:47.760 --> 01:05:50.360 couldn't really deal with it, and also the rules of 1202 01:05:50.400 --> 01:05:53.400 engagement as a civilian police officer are very different from 1203 01:05:53.440 --> 01:05:55.960 those as a you know, a lead gunner in Iraq, 1204 01:05:56.880 --> 01:05:58.159 and he began to feel like it was a bit 1205 01:05:58.159 --> 01:06:01.480 of a failure in life. And also being an ex 1206 01:06:01.559 --> 01:06:05.000 military man, you know, a career military man, you know, 1207 01:06:05.159 --> 01:06:07.199 he sort of felt that his life had lost purpose. 1208 01:06:08.760 --> 01:06:09.880 When the Iraq War. 1209 01:06:09.880 --> 01:06:13.559 Started, he decided to go despite having a one hundred 1210 01:06:13.559 --> 01:06:18.639 percent veterans pension with PTSD. Many would have queried that decision, 1211 01:06:18.800 --> 01:06:21.840 you know, saying you're you know, you're only likely to 1212 01:06:21.880 --> 01:06:23.440 make your demons far far worse. 1213 01:06:23.519 --> 01:06:25.519 Surely, his view was, you know. 1214 01:06:25.880 --> 01:06:28.960 These are demons that haunt me while I'm in civilian life. 1215 01:06:30.039 --> 01:06:33.199 But you know, it's a case of conditioned reflexes, and 1216 01:06:33.920 --> 01:06:38.760 if I'm back in a combat zone that there will 1217 01:06:38.800 --> 01:06:42.079 be they will serve a useful purpose, and so hopefully 1218 01:06:42.119 --> 01:06:45.760 will I. By serving in the legion. I think there's 1219 01:06:45.960 --> 01:06:48.719 I've listened to enough military podcasts to know that there 1220 01:06:48.760 --> 01:06:52.159 are people who might dispute Alex's diagnosis of that sort 1221 01:06:52.199 --> 01:06:55.519 of thing. But that was that was Alex's version of events, 1222 01:06:55.719 --> 01:06:57.920 and he said it worked. So for the first few 1223 01:06:57.960 --> 01:07:03.440 months when he was there, he was training Ukrainian sort 1224 01:07:03.480 --> 01:07:06.519 of military volunteers, and he was an ex staff sergeant 1225 01:07:06.599 --> 01:07:09.280 US Army staff sergeant, so he was used to dealing 1226 01:07:09.320 --> 01:07:11.599 with sort of groups of twenty or thirty men under 1227 01:07:11.920 --> 01:07:13.440 I think he felt it was, you know, he's making 1228 01:07:13.440 --> 01:07:16.559 a lot of difference effectively as a force multiplier, more 1229 01:07:16.639 --> 01:07:19.039 useful really in some ways than what he could achieve 1230 01:07:19.119 --> 01:07:22.239 individually as a you know, as a combatant. 1231 01:07:23.400 --> 01:07:25.000 But that that training work. 1232 01:07:26.920 --> 01:07:29.679 Stopped after a while, I think fell foul of Ukrainian 1233 01:07:29.760 --> 01:07:34.159 military bureaucracy, as the things often do. And I think, 1234 01:07:34.360 --> 01:07:36.320 like many people, he was keen just to sort of 1235 01:07:36.320 --> 01:07:39.159 see what the combat was like. So he joined a 1236 01:07:39.400 --> 01:07:42.960 volunteer up in Kharkiv. They were sent to do a 1237 01:07:43.079 --> 01:07:45.880 drone Wreki one day on his very first mission and 1238 01:07:47.239 --> 01:07:50.440 about they were up in some forests outside of Kharkiv 1239 01:07:51.079 --> 01:07:54.440 and they were ran into a much larger Russian unit 1240 01:07:54.639 --> 01:07:59.440 that effectively ambushed them. The unit he was with scattered. 1241 01:07:59.480 --> 01:08:02.800 There was about and they all scattered in different directions. 1242 01:08:03.320 --> 01:08:06.679 Alex and his companion had been told to look for 1243 01:08:06.760 --> 01:08:10.199 another guy who had gone missing. They felt reluctant to 1244 01:08:10.599 --> 01:08:13.599 leave the area while this other guy was unaccounted for, 1245 01:08:14.239 --> 01:08:17.319 mainly out of a sense of duty. That meant that 1246 01:08:17.399 --> 01:08:20.239 they were still there when the Russians started infiltrating through 1247 01:08:20.960 --> 01:08:22.800 what they were they saw through the woods in the 1248 01:08:22.960 --> 01:08:26.600 enormous tracked vehicle going along like a you know, like 1249 01:08:26.720 --> 01:08:29.479 some kind of prehistoric dinosaur. That was the sort of 1250 01:08:29.560 --> 01:08:32.279 first glimpse of the Russians, with a whole other Russian 1251 01:08:32.359 --> 01:08:33.640 soldiers wandering by them. 1252 01:08:34.560 --> 01:08:36.279 They then tried to escape out there. 1253 01:08:36.359 --> 01:08:38.079 I think they walked for about eight seven or eight 1254 01:08:38.159 --> 01:08:41.640 hours through the Ukrainian forest trying and head back roughly 1255 01:08:41.680 --> 01:08:42.960 in the direction of Kharkiv. 1256 01:08:43.359 --> 01:08:45.159 No idea who they might be running into. 1257 01:08:45.760 --> 01:08:48.920 Got chased by a wild boar at one point, and 1258 01:08:49.119 --> 01:08:51.479 eventually I think just at the point when they were 1259 01:08:51.560 --> 01:08:53.159 hoping they might have got back to sort of what 1260 01:08:53.279 --> 01:08:58.760 looked like a familiar village, they realized that the soldiers 1261 01:08:58.760 --> 01:09:00.920 ahead of them were in fact a big, a large 1262 01:09:00.960 --> 01:09:04.359 gang of Russians. By the time the two groups laid 1263 01:09:04.399 --> 01:09:06.159 eyes on each other, it was too late to run 1264 01:09:06.239 --> 01:09:10.920 and they had to surrender basically. And then Alex uh, 1265 01:09:11.359 --> 01:09:12.920 he was he was roffed up a bit at the time, 1266 01:09:13.039 --> 01:09:15.560 not too badly, I think, he said. The Russian soldiers 1267 01:09:15.640 --> 01:09:17.680 that caught them were that sort of yeah, you know, 1268 01:09:17.760 --> 01:09:19.760 you're another soldier. Yeah you're a foreigner, but you know, 1269 01:09:20.159 --> 01:09:22.800 we're all soldiers here together. So just the usual kind 1270 01:09:22.800 --> 01:09:26.479 of customary kicking and then a few conversations about you know, 1271 01:09:27.000 --> 01:09:29.920 what's you know, what's Joe Biden like, what's you know, 1272 01:09:30.239 --> 01:09:32.720 what are American women like? You know, they heart all 1273 01:09:32.760 --> 01:09:33.439 this sort of stuff. 1274 01:09:34.079 --> 01:09:36.479 Here, have a cigarette, mate, have a drink and water. 1275 01:09:37.119 --> 01:09:38.600 That then abruptly. 1276 01:09:38.279 --> 01:09:42.359 Changed when they were handed over to the Russian intelligence services, 1277 01:09:43.079 --> 01:09:47.600 and Alex spent about five weeks in a Russian black 1278 01:09:47.680 --> 01:09:49.880 site prison we'll call that. He doesn't really know what 1279 01:09:49.960 --> 01:09:52.279 it was, but it certainly wasn't an official prison anywhere 1280 01:09:52.720 --> 01:09:56.560 somewhere probably in the the Nets People's Republic, the Separatist held, 1281 01:09:57.119 --> 01:10:00.760 but of Ukraine, where he was tortured pretty much non 1282 01:10:00.840 --> 01:10:06.520 stop by Russian secret police who thought he was a 1283 01:10:06.600 --> 01:10:12.000 spy of some sort and were perhaps not surprisingly reluctant 1284 01:10:12.079 --> 01:10:15.239 to think that any American would be crazy enough to 1285 01:10:15.439 --> 01:10:17.399 join the International Legion. 1286 01:10:17.439 --> 01:10:19.079 You know, he was sort of saying, yeah, he was 1287 01:10:19.119 --> 01:10:21.600 a volunteer, and they're saying, no, you wouldn't. 1288 01:10:21.760 --> 01:10:23.920 You wouldn't do that, you know, you wouldn't be mad enough, 1289 01:10:24.920 --> 01:10:26.920 which was which was a hard one that dissuade them of. 1290 01:10:28.560 --> 01:10:33.960 And he was electrocuted quite a few times, you know, 1291 01:10:34.439 --> 01:10:36.760 fairly badly, which he said was far worse than the 1292 01:10:36.800 --> 01:10:40.399 other treatment that he tortured that he suffered. They also 1293 01:10:40.479 --> 01:10:43.399 did noise you know, noise torture on them, putting them 1294 01:10:43.439 --> 01:10:46.720 in a cell, and you know, playing really very loud 1295 01:10:46.840 --> 01:10:54.560 music at them, although rather amusingly they played band heavy 1296 01:10:54.760 --> 01:10:59.199 lots of heavy metal bands like Ramstein and other people, 1297 01:10:59.359 --> 01:11:02.600 you know, sort of death metal and speed metal American stuff, 1298 01:11:02.600 --> 01:11:04.960 which I think they thought would be the epitome of 1299 01:11:05.159 --> 01:11:05.720 torture and. 1300 01:11:06.119 --> 01:11:07.479 Might well have worked quite well. 1301 01:11:07.520 --> 01:11:11.159 Again, you know, on Gan tanam Obey INMTES. But for Alex, 1302 01:11:11.239 --> 01:11:14.680 it was exactly the sort of music that suburban teenagers 1303 01:11:14.720 --> 01:11:17.760 of Alex's generation grew up with in America. 1304 01:11:17.880 --> 01:11:19.239 Says, oh, you know, here's Ramstein. 1305 01:11:19.319 --> 01:11:21.319 Yeah, it's a bit loud, and it's you know, it's 1306 01:11:21.359 --> 01:11:22.840 the third time I've heard this one to day. But 1307 01:11:23.479 --> 01:11:25.960 it was manageable and it kind of reminded him from home. 1308 01:11:26.039 --> 01:11:28.560 And I think they played played this this thing on 1309 01:11:28.640 --> 01:11:31.319 a kind of loop of eighty tracks a day, and 1310 01:11:31.439 --> 01:11:34.079 it allowed Alex to keep time in a way that 1311 01:11:34.119 --> 01:11:36.119 he couldn't otherwise because the lights were switched all the 1312 01:11:36.159 --> 01:11:41.800 whole time, and that they had this sort of slightly 1313 01:11:41.920 --> 01:11:45.560 surreal experience when his captors told him that they were 1314 01:11:45.640 --> 01:11:49.000 actually going to try and negotiate for his release via 1315 01:11:49.079 --> 01:11:53.119 a prison swap or something like that. And he assumed, 1316 01:11:53.199 --> 01:11:55.520 I think, as we all, would you know somebody, you know, 1317 01:11:55.520 --> 01:11:58.479 the Russian secret police, secret services would have some sort 1318 01:11:58.479 --> 01:12:01.479 of hotline to the b I or the CIA that 1319 01:12:01.560 --> 01:12:04.920 they could do for you organizing these sorts of things. 1320 01:12:05.720 --> 01:12:06.119 They didn't. 1321 01:12:06.720 --> 01:12:11.560 They presented Alex with a downloaded list of phone numbers 1322 01:12:11.800 --> 01:12:15.640 for various US departments U S government departments that they 1323 01:12:16.439 --> 01:12:19.239 printed off the Internet and said, right, you start ringing 1324 01:12:19.279 --> 01:12:21.560 around these And so he was ringing around, you know, 1325 01:12:21.680 --> 01:12:25.680 the Department of Homeland Security switchboard and various other places. 1326 01:12:26.399 --> 01:12:28.439 And you know, most of the time never getting through 1327 01:12:28.479 --> 01:12:29.000 to anybody. 1328 01:12:29.119 --> 01:12:32.600 And on the and on the ed occasion where you know, 1329 01:12:32.920 --> 01:12:35.960 he did get through to some switchboard operator, you know, 1330 01:12:36.039 --> 01:12:38.680 when when your spiel as hello, my name is Alex Druki. 1331 01:12:39.520 --> 01:12:42.119 You know, I'm a prisoner of war in Russia. I'm 1332 01:12:42.159 --> 01:12:44.840 being held by the you know, the Russian Secret Police. 1333 01:12:45.159 --> 01:12:47.800 The answer is yes, I'm sure you are, Thank you, sir. 1334 01:12:47.920 --> 01:12:49.960 We do not take the nuisance callers here, you know, 1335 01:12:50.319 --> 01:12:55.159 slams the phoner and eventually I think the Russian is 1336 01:12:55.239 --> 01:12:59.840 Russian captors discovered a number for the veterans, the US 1337 01:13:00.039 --> 01:13:03.279 Veterans Crisis Line, which is a real life, you know, 1338 01:13:03.479 --> 01:13:06.000 help number on. 1339 01:13:06.039 --> 01:13:08.760 Which Alex himself had rung several times when you know, 1340 01:13:09.439 --> 01:13:12.479 in his bad days back in the in the US, 1341 01:13:12.600 --> 01:13:15.840 when he was suffering badly from PTSD and overdoing it 1342 01:13:15.920 --> 01:13:19.239 on the booze. So Alex said, now that this is 1343 01:13:19.359 --> 01:13:21.920 not the right number to ring. This is a twenty 1344 01:13:22.000 --> 01:13:26.880 four hour Veterans crisis line, to which his captor apparently said, well, 1345 01:13:27.319 --> 01:13:29.159 you know this is a crisis though, and you are 1346 01:13:29.199 --> 01:13:29.720 a veteran. 1347 01:13:30.159 --> 01:13:34.760 Wring the line, Alex kind of went, you know what, 1348 01:13:34.840 --> 01:13:35.560 I've had enough of this. 1349 01:13:36.079 --> 01:13:38.399 You know you might be right, so he rang it up, 1350 01:13:38.439 --> 01:13:41.039 and of course, being a veterans crisis line, you know, 1351 01:13:41.119 --> 01:13:43.720 designed for people who were suicidal, there was actually a 1352 01:13:43.840 --> 01:13:46.920 human being at the end of the phone who did listen, 1353 01:13:47.640 --> 01:13:52.239 and who did sort of then say yeah, okay, I'll 1354 01:13:52.279 --> 01:13:55.359 try and find a number for somebody who can help you, 1355 01:13:55.479 --> 01:13:59.119 and short, you know, very shortly afterwards put him through 1356 01:13:59.680 --> 01:14:02.920 to a state Department official who clearly knew who Alex 1357 01:14:03.159 --> 01:14:05.359 was and who knew about the case, who was in 1358 01:14:05.439 --> 01:14:10.600 a position to start the process for negotiations for Alex's release. 1359 01:14:11.239 --> 01:14:13.439 And I won't give away too much in the book, 1360 01:14:13.520 --> 01:14:17.600 but basically Alex spent about the next four months. He 1361 01:14:17.760 --> 01:14:23.079 was transferred to a civilian prison with a number of 1362 01:14:23.159 --> 01:14:27.079 other volunteers, about a dozen of them from various different 1363 01:14:27.079 --> 01:14:29.640 parts of the world, include a few other Americans and 1364 01:14:30.159 --> 01:14:33.840 some Brits, and they were held there and eventually released 1365 01:14:33.880 --> 01:14:37.079 as part of a prisoner swap. But the conditions in 1366 01:14:37.199 --> 01:14:40.520 that civilian prison, although they were not getting tortured on 1367 01:14:40.640 --> 01:14:45.640 a regular basis anymore, were still pretty grim. Alex sort 1368 01:14:45.640 --> 01:14:48.119 of as tells a story about it, was there was 1369 01:14:48.520 --> 01:14:52.479 a trustee in the prison, another inmate, a Ukrainian inmate. 1370 01:14:53.079 --> 01:14:53.560 Who was a. 1371 01:14:55.199 --> 01:14:58.399 He was employed that sweet the cells and change the 1372 01:14:58.479 --> 01:15:01.520 light bulbs on the cc TV in the cell. When 1373 01:15:01.560 --> 01:15:06.800 that went wrong, and uh, the prison guards sort of 1374 01:15:06.840 --> 01:15:09.960 took great delight in mentioning to Alex so that that guy, yeah, 1375 01:15:10.000 --> 01:15:13.279 he was a cannibal. He's a convicted cannibal. He's serving 1376 01:15:13.359 --> 01:15:19.479 several licenses for eating people. And one day they they 1377 01:15:19.600 --> 01:15:24.159 sort of the prison guards asked this, this cannibal, you know, uh, 1378 01:15:24.520 --> 01:15:26.880 which of the three prisoners in here would you would 1379 01:15:26.920 --> 01:15:29.239 you prefer to eat? Because they had Alex and then 1380 01:15:29.239 --> 01:15:31.119 they had Andy who was Asian, and they also had 1381 01:15:31.159 --> 01:15:34.960 an African American in the cell as well as which 1382 01:15:35.000 --> 01:15:38.359 ethnicity would you prefer to dine off? Which I think 1383 01:15:38.479 --> 01:15:40.319 was an example of kind of a sense sort of 1384 01:15:40.479 --> 01:15:46.199 dark Russian humor. And as Alex, you know, Alex later 1385 01:15:46.239 --> 01:15:49.920 reflected her that this this, this this cannibal, I think 1386 01:15:49.960 --> 01:15:52.159 his name was Ego, was actually you know, one of 1387 01:15:52.199 --> 01:15:56.039 the few friendly faces in the prison, and he would 1388 01:15:56.039 --> 01:15:59.800 occasionally give him his you know, his he's used cigarettes 1389 01:16:01.079 --> 01:16:04.640 cast offs, which they would then Alex and his friends 1390 01:16:04.680 --> 01:16:07.640 would then sort of dissect and make roll ups from 1391 01:16:08.079 --> 01:16:12.800 from using bits of bits of paper, pets of newspaper, 1392 01:16:13.960 --> 01:16:15.479 and you know, but he didn't sort of say, you know, 1393 01:16:15.680 --> 01:16:18.039 when your idea of a good day is getting you know, 1394 01:16:18.520 --> 01:16:23.119 cast off cigarettes were convicted, Cannibal does sort of suggest that, 1395 01:16:23.319 --> 01:16:25.039 you know, he perhaps a bit of a low point. 1396 01:16:26.199 --> 01:16:29.680 Another thing that I thought that I thought was very 1397 01:16:29.760 --> 01:16:35.560 interesting was he mentions how the interrogators, I guess they 1398 01:16:35.600 --> 01:16:38.760 were at the other place, at the at the black site, 1399 01:16:39.039 --> 01:16:43.840 presumably FSB guys. They were very good at torturing the 1400 01:16:43.920 --> 01:16:47.079 hell out of people, but they were very naive about 1401 01:16:47.239 --> 01:16:50.159 how America works, like just oblivious. 1402 01:16:51.359 --> 01:16:55.239 Yes, I think they they thought that Alex had been 1403 01:16:55.520 --> 01:16:59.000 their official. Their suspicion was that Alex had been sent 1404 01:16:59.119 --> 01:17:03.920 in bar by some US sort of secret service to 1405 01:17:04.039 --> 01:17:09.960 equip the Ukrainians with the means to manufacture weapons of 1406 01:17:10.000 --> 01:17:14.079 mass destruction. That the basis for this being that Alex 1407 01:17:14.159 --> 01:17:17.199 had done a course while he was a US Army 1408 01:17:17.239 --> 01:17:20.680 staff sergeant on WND disposal, which I think was a 1409 01:17:20.720 --> 01:17:23.920 fairly standard course that a lot of US military soldiers 1410 01:17:23.960 --> 01:17:25.159 did prior to the. 1411 01:17:26.720 --> 01:17:29.319 Two thousand and three deployment in Iraq. What that meant was, 1412 01:17:29.399 --> 01:17:31.079 you knew how to recognize. 1413 01:17:30.600 --> 01:17:35.079 Potentially hazards materials, and the purposes, you know, the sort 1414 01:17:35.119 --> 01:17:37.279 of procedures for potentially disposing of. 1415 01:17:37.359 --> 01:17:38.439 Them or making them safe. 1416 01:17:39.840 --> 01:17:43.359 They Yeah, they seem to have no real concept of 1417 01:17:43.920 --> 01:17:46.279 who he was or anything like that, and no way 1418 01:17:46.359 --> 01:17:47.600 of disbelieving him. 1419 01:17:48.239 --> 01:17:56.119 In any way. And yeah, more generally, I think they're there. 1420 01:17:57.079 --> 01:18:00.000 They're sort of a lot of their sort of experts, 1421 01:18:00.000 --> 01:18:04.720 dictations or preconceptions about Americans seemed to be drawn from 1422 01:18:04.960 --> 01:18:08.319 you know, reading US spy novels and so on. You know, 1423 01:18:08.359 --> 01:18:10.920 it was it was quite commic. You would have thought 1424 01:18:11.039 --> 01:18:14.880 perhaps it was a you know, just a play of 1425 01:18:15.000 --> 01:18:17.000 a ploy of some sort to hide the fact that 1426 01:18:17.079 --> 01:18:19.279 they actually knew what they were doing, But often it 1427 01:18:19.319 --> 01:18:20.119 didn't seem like that. 1428 01:18:21.840 --> 01:18:25.399 I and then tell us about the guys in Mauropaul. 1429 01:18:26.359 --> 01:18:31.399 In Mariopol, Yeah, yeah, so Mario Paul, as most of 1430 01:18:31.439 --> 01:18:34.319 your listeners will remember, was the city that the Russians 1431 01:18:34.399 --> 01:18:37.760 really laid siege to at the beginning of the war. 1432 01:18:38.720 --> 01:18:41.640 It's down down on the ass of I thinks on 1433 01:18:41.720 --> 01:18:44.000 the on the ass of the coast of the ass 1434 01:18:44.039 --> 01:18:50.760 Of seeing southeast on Ukraine's sort of southeastern border. And yeah, 1435 01:18:50.800 --> 01:18:54.159 it was just basically raised to the ground by shelling 1436 01:18:54.640 --> 01:18:57.199 and there was a big sort of the Ukrainian forces 1437 01:18:57.239 --> 01:19:01.560 there mounted a last stand at as Of Steel Works, 1438 01:19:01.600 --> 01:19:06.479 which is this sort of vast complex steel complex, one 1439 01:19:06.520 --> 01:19:10.319 of the biggest in the world that runs for several miles. 1440 01:19:10.359 --> 01:19:13.800 It's just an enormous steel refinery. So there's a million 1441 01:19:13.840 --> 01:19:16.800 and one place is to hide there if you are 1442 01:19:16.880 --> 01:19:20.479 a soldier. You know, there's gantries, there's pipes, there's underground bunkers, 1443 01:19:20.520 --> 01:19:24.279 there's there's miles and miles of service tunnels. And also 1444 01:19:24.399 --> 01:19:27.520 because there's a Soviet built facility, there are lots of 1445 01:19:27.600 --> 01:19:32.119 purpose built military bunkers there as well that were built 1446 01:19:32.159 --> 01:19:35.239 in the anticipation that Marion Paul and the rest of 1447 01:19:35.239 --> 01:19:37.760 the Soviet Union would one day be attacked by the 1448 01:19:37.960 --> 01:19:41.720 US or by the West. So you know, it's both 1449 01:19:41.880 --> 01:19:45.560 a factory and the citadel. And so the Ukrainians mounted 1450 01:19:45.600 --> 01:19:50.279 a last stand there, and among them was a British 1451 01:19:50.319 --> 01:19:55.720 fighter by the name of John Harding, and you know 1452 01:19:55.840 --> 01:20:01.600 he he'd actually joined the Ukrainian military several years before 1453 01:20:03.000 --> 01:20:07.159 as a volunteer, having previously fought for the Kurdish as 1454 01:20:07.159 --> 01:20:10.039 a volunteer with the Kurdish anti Isis forces in Iraq, 1455 01:20:11.520 --> 01:20:14.520 and he was an ex parachute regiment soldier. He also 1456 01:20:14.600 --> 01:20:18.560 for the Falkland's conflict in nineteen eighty two, which he 1457 01:20:18.680 --> 01:20:23.079 was getting on by the time the war in Ukraine 1458 01:20:23.239 --> 01:20:27.319 loomed and I think in fact, he was due to retire. 1459 01:20:27.560 --> 01:20:32.920 It was his sixtieth birthday was coming up around in 1460 01:20:33.079 --> 01:20:36.319 twenty twenty two sometime, and I think a month before 1461 01:20:36.399 --> 01:20:39.840 the war started in January twenty twenty two, he'd said 1462 01:20:39.880 --> 01:20:42.359 to his commander, I mean, I'm good at it's time 1463 01:20:42.399 --> 01:20:44.479 I retired. My legs are not what they were, and 1464 01:20:44.560 --> 01:20:46.720 you know, I don't want to be a liability. And 1465 01:20:46.880 --> 01:20:48.800 the commander said, well fine, yeah, but do you know 1466 01:20:48.960 --> 01:20:51.079 that the paperwork will be easier if you if you 1467 01:20:51.199 --> 01:20:54.840 just wait waited out a month, I said, might. 1468 01:20:54.880 --> 01:20:57.119 He stay on to the end of February? And John 1469 01:20:57.119 --> 01:20:57.840 said yeah, sure. 1470 01:20:57.840 --> 01:21:00.760 And at that time none of them thought the Ukrainian 1471 01:21:00.800 --> 01:21:03.520 invasion was going to actually happen, that they just thought 1472 01:21:03.560 --> 01:21:07.000 this troop build up was just another you know, not 1473 01:21:07.079 --> 01:21:09.119 a saber rattling exercised by Putin. 1474 01:21:09.760 --> 01:21:12.119 So he stayed on and then on the twenty third of. 1475 01:21:13.840 --> 01:21:16.439 February, the night before the invasion, he literally had his 1476 01:21:16.560 --> 01:21:19.399 bags packed to head back to the UK and then 1477 01:21:19.560 --> 01:21:23.359 he got the message the next morning from his comrade saying, oh, yeah, 1478 01:21:23.399 --> 01:21:27.039 the Russians coming in across the border, and John said, 1479 01:21:27.039 --> 01:21:29.920 how many of them? And the reply came, all of them. 1480 01:21:30.880 --> 01:21:34.159 And so it was that John found himself among the 1481 01:21:35.239 --> 01:21:39.159 soldiers manning with the Azo Brigade who were manning the 1482 01:21:40.720 --> 01:21:44.640 the sort of last stand in this steel factory and 1483 01:21:45.159 --> 01:21:49.039 pall the as of steel factory, and he gives a 1484 01:21:49.079 --> 01:21:52.560 pretty graphic account of that. It's you know that they 1485 01:21:52.640 --> 01:21:55.279 held out for a long time and basically managed to 1486 01:21:55.319 --> 01:21:59.680 slow the Russian advance across the rest of Ukraine quite significantly. 1487 01:22:00.479 --> 01:22:03.039 So the operation was a success from that point of view. 1488 01:22:03.520 --> 01:22:05.960 But as as the siege went on, I think it 1489 01:22:06.079 --> 01:22:10.039 lasted until early May, so you know, nearly three months 1490 01:22:10.399 --> 01:22:13.239 they ran low on supplies and ammunition, and also on 1491 01:22:13.359 --> 01:22:17.199 medicines and anesthetics. And then John gives a very vivid 1492 01:22:17.199 --> 01:22:21.119 account at one point of having two you know soldiers, 1493 01:22:21.720 --> 01:22:25.279 you know, suffering gangrene in their wounds and having to 1494 01:22:25.359 --> 01:22:31.640 perform amputations without anesthetic, and you know, they would have 1495 01:22:31.680 --> 01:22:33.920 a surgeon with a bone saw. They would do the 1496 01:22:34.079 --> 01:22:36.520 job as quickly as he could on a leg or something. 1497 01:22:36.840 --> 01:22:38.479 She used to take a couple of minutes, and then 1498 01:22:39.000 --> 01:22:41.640 they would have about six other soldiers just there to 1499 01:22:41.800 --> 01:22:46.319 hold the patient down to to try and keep them 1500 01:22:46.399 --> 01:22:50.399 still when you know, on the operating table. And I 1501 01:22:50.479 --> 01:22:52.479 said that, John, and what was yours sort of you know, 1502 01:22:52.720 --> 01:22:54.880 what way did it was the only way to prepare 1503 01:22:54.960 --> 01:22:58.239 people for this? And he said, no, not really. You 1504 01:22:58.319 --> 01:22:59.960 know what he would say is this this is really 1505 01:23:00.079 --> 01:23:03.319 gonna fucking hurt. And if you want, I can stick 1506 01:23:03.359 --> 01:23:05.199 a piece of wood in your mouth that you can bite. 1507 01:23:06.399 --> 01:23:09.600 But yeah, that's that sort of thing, you know, absolutely 1508 01:23:09.640 --> 01:23:14.199 extremes of experience. And eventually, yeah, they were ordered to surrender. 1509 01:23:14.279 --> 01:23:17.600 Put in sealed the place off. He actually realized that 1510 01:23:17.680 --> 01:23:20.760 he couldn't actually get the soldiers get the ass off. 1511 01:23:20.800 --> 01:23:23.319 He didn't want to send his own soldiers in because 1512 01:23:23.399 --> 01:23:24.920 he realized they just still get. 1513 01:23:25.079 --> 01:23:25.920 Keep getting killed. 1514 01:23:26.399 --> 01:23:29.479 You sealed it off, and then the as of soldiers 1515 01:23:29.560 --> 01:23:33.880 were agreed to surrender and internationally broken surrender on the 1516 01:23:33.960 --> 01:23:36.720 condition that they would not actually be that they would 1517 01:23:36.760 --> 01:23:39.840 be taken into Russian custody but not harmed, and of 1518 01:23:39.920 --> 01:23:43.199 course they were all tortured to within an inch of 1519 01:23:43.279 --> 01:23:47.600 their life. John was you got a really severe kicking 1520 01:23:48.199 --> 01:23:51.079 during his spell, his five week spell in the Black Site, 1521 01:23:52.960 --> 01:23:55.479 to which he tried to make it worse by saying 1522 01:23:55.560 --> 01:23:58.920 to them, you know you hit like my sister, you 1523 01:23:59.039 --> 01:24:02.079 or hit like girls, I think, basically actually trying to 1524 01:24:02.199 --> 01:24:05.760 get them, daring them to kill him, you know, rather 1525 01:24:05.840 --> 01:24:10.359 than sort of subjecting to really prolonged, serious, more you know, 1526 01:24:10.840 --> 01:24:16.479 more considered torture. It didn't, but it did break his Sternham. 1527 01:24:16.640 --> 01:24:20.199 And then later when he was released from captivity, I 1528 01:24:20.279 --> 01:24:24.399 think he was taking the Hosport system a few months later, 1529 01:24:24.479 --> 01:24:28.359 having suffered a suspected heart attack, and the doctor said, actually, 1530 01:24:28.399 --> 01:24:31.560 the signs that you suffered at earlier heart attack, which 1531 01:24:31.680 --> 01:24:33.640 is probably while you were in captivity, it's you. 1532 01:24:33.640 --> 01:24:35.640 Know, it's a miracle you're still alive. 1533 01:24:36.680 --> 01:24:39.399 So yeah, John is one of you know what, one 1534 01:24:39.479 --> 01:24:41.840 of thousands of ours off soldiers who sort of went 1535 01:24:41.920 --> 01:24:45.479 through that experience, but one of relatively few Westerners who's 1536 01:24:45.560 --> 01:24:47.960 you know, who's been around to tell the tale. And 1537 01:24:48.359 --> 01:24:50.199 I think that's one of the valuable parts of the 1538 01:24:50.239 --> 01:24:55.399 book is that you've got American and British soldiers giving 1539 01:24:55.479 --> 01:24:57.880 first hand accounts of what that brutality, what the what 1540 01:24:58.000 --> 01:25:01.560 the brutality is like in the Russian system. Because with 1541 01:25:01.760 --> 01:25:05.960 the best will in the world, to some audiences around 1542 01:25:05.960 --> 01:25:09.159 the world, when they hear Ukrainians talking about what they 1543 01:25:09.800 --> 01:25:12.800 often don't perhaps believe, you know, I don't believe the 1544 01:25:12.840 --> 01:25:14.800 one percent because they feel these are people who've got 1545 01:25:14.880 --> 01:25:17.560 skin in the game, whereas that's less likely when when 1546 01:25:17.560 --> 01:25:20.159 it's Westerns who are giving those accounts. 1547 01:25:20.520 --> 01:25:22.760 I mean, as you say that, it reminds me of 1548 01:25:23.720 --> 01:25:27.560 an American World War Two veteran named Jerry Sage who 1549 01:25:27.960 --> 01:25:30.560 was captured and he was held in that that that 1550 01:25:30.720 --> 01:25:34.439 prison is like Stalog three. It was the Great Escape 1551 01:25:34.520 --> 01:25:37.680 where they tried to dig out. He got transferred. He 1552 01:25:37.760 --> 01:25:40.520 wasn't part of that. But anyway, his memoir what you're 1553 01:25:40.520 --> 01:25:42.479 saying that reminds me of it is in his memoir 1554 01:25:42.600 --> 01:25:45.399 he talks about the end of the war and he 1555 01:25:45.880 --> 01:25:49.840 his position where he is gets taken over by the Russians, 1556 01:25:50.439 --> 01:25:53.600 and so the Russians, you know, capture him, liberate him, 1557 01:25:54.119 --> 01:25:56.319 and they're going to be the ones that repatriate him 1558 01:25:56.319 --> 01:25:58.840 back to the United States. And he saw how they 1559 01:25:58.960 --> 01:26:02.479 treated the Poles and other Slavic people in Eastern Europe. 1560 01:26:02.720 --> 01:26:05.800 It was just disgusted by it. I think he actually 1561 01:26:05.840 --> 01:26:09.319 got released through Odessa. I think from Odessa he sailed 1562 01:26:09.359 --> 01:26:11.920 on a ship to Egypt and then the American military 1563 01:26:11.960 --> 01:26:15.880 picked them back up. But history repeats itself. 1564 01:26:16.600 --> 01:26:17.399 It does, indeed. 1565 01:26:17.479 --> 01:26:20.359 Yeah, and it's I mean one of the other soldiers, 1566 01:26:20.560 --> 01:26:23.439 Andrew Hill, who the guy previously described as Andrew Harding, 1567 01:26:23.479 --> 01:26:28.399 the British guy. Apologies Andrew, if you're listening. He when 1568 01:26:28.520 --> 01:26:29.640 when he got back. 1569 01:26:29.680 --> 01:26:30.600 To the UK. 1570 01:26:31.720 --> 01:26:37.000 You know, he there's there's no real support for legionnaires 1571 01:26:37.319 --> 01:26:42.079 who've who've been through trauma or injury because the British government, 1572 01:26:42.159 --> 01:26:44.600 like the American government, does not sanction them going out 1573 01:26:44.680 --> 01:26:47.920 there to Ukraine. It doesn't it doesn't stop, but it 1574 01:26:47.920 --> 01:26:52.840 doesn't sanction them either. That doesn't doesn't endorse them going 1575 01:26:53.399 --> 01:26:56.039 and so you don't get you know, you can't go 1576 01:26:56.199 --> 01:27:00.600 to the US military hospital or UK military hospital and 1577 01:27:00.800 --> 01:27:06.279 get medical or you know, mental health trauma help, and 1578 01:27:06.439 --> 01:27:09.560 he ended up going to some local men's health group 1579 01:27:10.359 --> 01:27:13.800 you know, near his house, are perfectly good, well run 1580 01:27:14.239 --> 01:27:16.560 mental health charity that had been recommended to him by 1581 01:27:16.560 --> 01:27:19.880 a friend. But you know, it was one of those 1582 01:27:19.880 --> 01:27:21.760 things where you you know, you turn up and you're 1583 01:27:21.880 --> 01:27:23.800 the new guy in the group, and it's like, you know, 1584 01:27:24.279 --> 01:27:26.520 please share your experience, and he sort of said, like, 1585 01:27:26.600 --> 01:27:30.760 you know, Andrew Hill, which military volunteer in Ukraine, I 1586 01:27:30.880 --> 01:27:33.439 was taking prisoner of war by the Russians and I 1587 01:27:33.640 --> 01:27:37.319 was tortured for five weeks and then held in a 1588 01:27:37.399 --> 01:27:39.680 pow camp where I nearly staffed to death. 1589 01:27:41.279 --> 01:27:43.760 And you can sort of see, he said, you could 1590 01:27:43.760 --> 01:27:47.159 see some jaws dropping by a mile in this room. 1591 01:27:48.399 --> 01:27:49.640 And you know the majority of. 1592 01:27:49.640 --> 01:27:52.399 The other guys in there are people just with every 1593 01:27:52.680 --> 01:27:59.159 everyday complaints about you know, drink problems, drug problems, arguments 1594 01:27:59.239 --> 01:28:02.359 with the wife, depression, you know, very much sort of 1595 01:28:02.439 --> 01:28:06.159 civilian first world issues. And I think he talked for 1596 01:28:06.199 --> 01:28:08.520 about an hour and a half in that first session. 1597 01:28:08.520 --> 01:28:10.720 It's supposed to be everybody had ten minutes each, but 1598 01:28:10.840 --> 01:28:14.119 the rest of them all just like, really what happened? 1599 01:28:14.840 --> 01:28:18.399 And I think it was an interesting evening for his 1600 01:28:19.039 --> 01:28:23.840 fellow you know, he's felt the people also in the 1601 01:28:23.960 --> 01:28:27.800 session and no doubt put their problems from the perspective, 1602 01:28:28.239 --> 01:28:30.800 but it really wasn't suitable for him and I don't 1603 01:28:30.840 --> 01:28:34.279 think he went back. He needed, you know, to be 1604 01:28:34.479 --> 01:28:36.720 in with with other military But at. 1605 01:28:36.640 --> 01:28:38.119 The same time, I mean that there wouldn't have been 1606 01:28:38.159 --> 01:28:41.199 any other military people who would have had an experience 1607 01:28:41.279 --> 01:28:43.199 comparable to that. There were you know, I don't know 1608 01:28:43.279 --> 01:28:48.439 there's anybody in the British military living or dead in 1609 01:28:49.119 --> 01:28:51.680 you know, in the last century who would have had 1610 01:28:51.760 --> 01:28:55.680 experience of being tortured by the FSB. You might have 1611 01:28:55.840 --> 01:28:59.520 had a few who'd been experiences of uh, you know, 1612 01:29:00.199 --> 01:29:04.279 mistreatment in captivity and but yeah. 1613 01:29:05.760 --> 01:29:08.279 Yeah, maybe Andy McNabb in the in the Gulf War. 1614 01:29:09.439 --> 01:29:11.319 Yeah, I mean that would be the only sort of 1615 01:29:11.399 --> 01:29:13.840 comparable experience and you know that that was a long 1616 01:29:13.960 --> 01:29:18.640 time ago, and yeah, it's the experiences would not have 1617 01:29:18.760 --> 01:29:20.640 been entirely comparable anyway. 1618 01:29:20.880 --> 01:29:24.840 Yeah, you know was special Forces Andrew Andrew Hill was 1619 01:29:24.920 --> 01:29:28.199 not although he'd done you know, he'd done. 1620 01:29:28.680 --> 01:29:30.039 Conduct under capture training. 1621 01:29:30.079 --> 01:29:32.479 He was a training for try going I think actually, 1622 01:29:33.760 --> 01:29:36.520 given what he's been through seemed to manage to. 1623 01:29:36.600 --> 01:29:37.439 Cook quite well. 1624 01:29:37.479 --> 01:29:41.359 Although I make a point I'm not talking specifically about 1625 01:29:41.359 --> 01:29:44.079 Andrew's case here, but I never make any judgments about 1626 01:29:44.520 --> 01:29:47.199 sort of you know, what kind of mental health state 1627 01:29:47.279 --> 01:29:49.319 any of the people I interview are in when I 1628 01:29:49.439 --> 01:29:52.760 interviewed them, because they may not, they may not well 1629 01:29:52.800 --> 01:29:55.199 disclosed a lot about, you know, what they're feeling inside, 1630 01:29:55.279 --> 01:29:57.800 even if often you know that they appear to be 1631 01:29:58.239 --> 01:30:00.560 pretty pretty stable the outside. 1632 01:30:01.960 --> 01:30:05.319 And the story about how these POW's got released is 1633 01:30:05.479 --> 01:30:10.199 like one of the most bizarre stories that anyone's likely 1634 01:30:10.319 --> 01:30:11.520 to read in quite a while. 1635 01:30:13.319 --> 01:30:16.840 Yeah, so, I think when they were there for about 1636 01:30:16.920 --> 01:30:20.159 four months and they were all just they several of 1637 01:30:20.239 --> 01:30:24.479 them have been sentenced, you know, appeared in court in 1638 01:30:24.680 --> 01:30:28.079 Russian run courts where they'd been told that they were 1639 01:30:28.119 --> 01:30:31.119 going to get the death sentence, and if if that 1640 01:30:31.239 --> 01:30:33.119 wasn't gonna happen, they thought they'd get at least twenty 1641 01:30:33.199 --> 01:30:36.439 five years in the jail they were in, which given 1642 01:30:36.520 --> 01:30:39.239 the conditions there, would have meant the death sentence by 1643 01:30:39.319 --> 01:30:44.199 the means, so very few I think expected to last 1644 01:30:44.279 --> 01:30:47.239 more than about a year. Alex Druki, who we spoke 1645 01:30:47.239 --> 01:30:52.159 about earlier, had a nail hidden in his mattress, some 1646 01:30:52.399 --> 01:30:56.199 nail that he pulled out of the the metal struck 1647 01:30:56.279 --> 01:30:58.520 for the mattress, which I think you said, you know, 1648 01:30:59.640 --> 01:31:03.359 if I will use this to slip my throat, if 1649 01:31:03.399 --> 01:31:05.159 this lasts to be on the point where I can 1650 01:31:05.239 --> 01:31:08.199 stand it, you know, maybe in another year. They're pretty 1651 01:31:08.279 --> 01:31:10.800 much given up vote. And then there was suddenly told, right. 1652 01:31:10.800 --> 01:31:13.680 You're all moving from this jail. 1653 01:31:14.000 --> 01:31:18.600 They weren't told why, and initially I think they thought 1654 01:31:18.720 --> 01:31:21.319 this was possibly the month where they're going to be 1655 01:31:21.399 --> 01:31:27.720 taken and said a firing squad. They were then loaded 1656 01:31:27.760 --> 01:31:31.279 into a lorry in extremely uncomfortable stress positions, all kind 1657 01:31:31.319 --> 01:31:35.640 of bound up together and driven from about twelve hours 1658 01:31:35.840 --> 01:31:40.560 to an unknown destination, all blindfolded, almost willing death by 1659 01:31:40.640 --> 01:31:43.199 the time they got there, after being twelve hours of 1660 01:31:43.279 --> 01:31:48.319 being trust up in stress positions, and then they found 1661 01:31:48.319 --> 01:31:51.479 themselves at an airport in I think Rostov on Don, 1662 01:31:51.560 --> 01:31:54.680 which is one of the Russian cities actually is a 1663 01:31:54.720 --> 01:31:58.600 forward base for the for Russian operations in Ukraine. 1664 01:31:59.119 --> 01:32:01.079 And so this is we're out in the you know, 1665 01:32:01.199 --> 01:32:05.439 we're out of Ukraine. Something's clearly happening. And then they uh, 1666 01:32:05.960 --> 01:32:08.479 they were then put on a plane with a whole 1667 01:32:08.520 --> 01:32:12.560 load of Arabs on the plane, Arab men in expensive dress, 1668 01:32:12.680 --> 01:32:16.520 you know, expensive suits, and they're thinking what is going 1669 01:32:16.600 --> 01:32:19.079 on here? They're still not told what's going on really. 1670 01:32:19.439 --> 01:32:22.479 And thinking maybe you know these Syrians and we're being 1671 01:32:22.520 --> 01:32:28.880 transferred to present the sad tender mercies was a mate 1672 01:32:28.920 --> 01:32:31.840 of prudence at the time. Or it's just the plane 1673 01:32:31.920 --> 01:32:34.640 going to get got up in the sky and you 1674 01:32:34.720 --> 01:32:36.520 know what we're gonna We're going to be told that 1675 01:32:36.560 --> 01:32:38.079 we're on a prison swap and then it's just going 1676 01:32:38.159 --> 01:32:42.600 to get shot down or developed mysterious mechanical failure and 1677 01:32:42.720 --> 01:32:44.760 that would be the end of that. But anyway, they 1678 01:32:44.840 --> 01:32:47.760 duly landed in Saudi Arabia and at that point they 1679 01:32:47.840 --> 01:32:52.760 met the US diplomats and were told like, yeah, you've 1680 01:32:52.840 --> 01:32:56.279 you've been. There's been a prison swap. You're free to 1681 01:32:56.520 --> 01:32:59.640 you know, head home. And some of them have added 1682 01:32:59.680 --> 01:33:03.000 ink this was happening on the plane on the way over, 1683 01:33:04.039 --> 01:33:06.439 and the main reason for that was that they had 1684 01:33:07.119 --> 01:33:09.960 there was this sort of wealthy looking businessman who wandered 1685 01:33:10.039 --> 01:33:11.880 up and down the plane at one at one point, 1686 01:33:13.119 --> 01:33:16.680 and he had a striking resemblance to a man called 1687 01:33:16.760 --> 01:33:18.880 Roman and Vramovich. I don't know how well he is. 1688 01:33:18.960 --> 01:33:23.359 He well known in the US. Well, he's he's a 1689 01:33:23.399 --> 01:33:25.640 Russian oli guard and he's he's famous in the UK 1690 01:33:25.800 --> 01:33:28.920 because he owns, or he used to own, Chelsea Football Club, 1691 01:33:29.680 --> 01:33:33.520 famous football club in the UK. There's a billionaire, and 1692 01:33:33.920 --> 01:33:36.840 he'd been sanctioned subsequent to the start of the Ukraine 1693 01:33:36.880 --> 01:33:40.560 what he'd been sanctioned for his alleged links to President Putin. 1694 01:33:41.319 --> 01:33:43.319 But he's familiar to a lot of these legionaires who 1695 01:33:43.319 --> 01:33:46.680 are keen footballers because of the fact that he had 1696 01:33:46.760 --> 01:33:49.640 owned Chelsea Football Club. And one of them said to 1697 01:33:50.000 --> 01:33:52.720 said to this chat as he wandered past this man 1698 01:33:52.840 --> 01:33:54.560 in the in the you know, in the World Cup 1699 01:33:54.640 --> 01:33:56.760 suit said you don't matter what, mate, you look just 1700 01:33:56.920 --> 01:33:59.479 like that guy roaming a Braanvitch, the guy who owns Chelsea, 1701 01:33:59.760 --> 01:34:02.760 who heard of him. And this man turned to him 1702 01:34:02.760 --> 01:34:05.199 and sort of said, yes, that is because I am 1703 01:34:05.520 --> 01:34:06.399 Roman Abradovich. 1704 01:34:07.520 --> 01:34:10.239 And it turned out that Roman Abravitch had. 1705 01:34:10.279 --> 01:34:16.479 Organized this this prisoner swap, broken a deal between well, 1706 01:34:16.479 --> 01:34:22.159 I suppose essentially Britain, America and the Russians whereby the 1707 01:34:22.640 --> 01:34:27.279 foreign volunteers and about two hundred and fifty other Ukrainian 1708 01:34:27.359 --> 01:34:30.840 prisoners of war were freed in return for a number 1709 01:34:30.840 --> 01:34:33.800 of Russian prisoners of war. And a Bravich had done this, 1710 01:34:33.960 --> 01:34:38.840 I think apparently partly to sort of, I think, to 1711 01:34:39.800 --> 01:34:42.920 you know, sort of mend his reputation with the West 1712 01:34:43.000 --> 01:34:45.640 and presumably hope long term that he, you know, he 1713 01:34:45.640 --> 01:34:48.479 would be able to regain ownership of his assets in 1714 01:34:48.560 --> 01:34:53.159 the UK, including Chelsea Football Club. There's also no coincidence 1715 01:34:53.159 --> 01:34:58.399 that the plane landed in Saudi Arabia. Who's Who's president 1716 01:34:59.520 --> 01:35:06.199 President Leader mohammadan Salman, the Crown Prince was, you know, 1717 01:35:06.359 --> 01:35:09.359 was also in the diplomatic doghouse at the time over 1718 01:35:09.439 --> 01:35:15.199 the the killing of a Saudi journalist, Jamal Kashohji, which 1719 01:35:15.279 --> 01:35:18.800 he was accused of giving the red light the green 1720 01:35:18.880 --> 01:35:20.680 light too, so both of them had a bit of 1721 01:35:21.199 --> 01:35:25.079 reputational laundering to do. But that led to the freeing 1722 01:35:25.319 --> 01:35:29.359 of about you know, twelve or thirteen legionnaires and many 1723 01:35:29.520 --> 01:35:33.680 Ukrainian soldiers who were otherwise have probably still been there. 1724 01:35:33.720 --> 01:35:36.680 And that's how Alex Druki, for example, came to fly 1725 01:35:36.880 --> 01:35:41.960 home at the tail end of twenty twenty two and 1726 01:35:42.159 --> 01:35:44.640 was then Julie Grill for another three weeks or for 1727 01:35:44.800 --> 01:35:48.119 several hours by him some FBI guys, which he didn't 1728 01:35:48.119 --> 01:35:51.840 really want, but he gave lengthy descriptions of the people 1729 01:35:51.880 --> 01:35:54.520 who tortured him and hopes to this day, I think 1730 01:35:54.560 --> 01:35:57.520 to maybe one day see them across the dock of 1731 01:35:57.560 --> 01:35:58.479 a war crime squad. 1732 01:35:58.560 --> 01:36:03.880 But yeah, another person mentioned in your book who has 1733 01:36:03.960 --> 01:36:06.720 been a guest on this show before is Ryan O'Leary. 1734 01:36:07.960 --> 01:36:12.000 Oh yes, yes, yeah, I mean Ryan I never met. 1735 01:36:12.239 --> 01:36:15.199 I think we did try to interview once, but just. 1736 01:36:16.760 --> 01:36:19.479 The times never we have like a three and a 1737 01:36:19.520 --> 01:36:20.960 half hour episode with him. 1738 01:36:21.000 --> 01:36:25.279 He had a lot Yeah, you know, yes, you'll know 1739 01:36:25.439 --> 01:36:31.119 most of Ryan's history then. But I interviewed one of 1740 01:36:31.199 --> 01:36:34.199 the soldiers in the book, Jack Knight, worked for Ryan, 1741 01:36:35.760 --> 01:36:40.800 worked under Ryan and as part of Chosen Company, and 1742 01:36:40.960 --> 01:36:43.039 fought a number of battles with them. They were a 1743 01:36:43.159 --> 01:36:47.880 volunteer unit made up mainly of legionnaires, and the interesting 1744 01:36:47.920 --> 01:36:50.760 thing about Chosen Company, apart from the battles that they 1745 01:36:51.720 --> 01:36:55.399 they fought in, was that they were essentially essentially an 1746 01:36:55.399 --> 01:36:58.640 effort to sort of improve the professionalism of the Legion. 1747 01:36:58.720 --> 01:37:02.039 I think it had gone a bad reputation because of 1748 01:37:02.159 --> 01:37:07.079 the Walter Mitty characters within the Legion and the sort 1749 01:37:07.079 --> 01:37:11.920 of fantasists and so on. Other legionnaires Legion units had 1750 01:37:11.920 --> 01:37:14.479 a bit of a reputation for the only fighting one 1751 01:37:14.560 --> 01:37:16.439 week in three and spending a lot of time in 1752 01:37:16.600 --> 01:37:22.680 bars and brothels and brawling and other stuff. And then 1753 01:37:22.880 --> 01:37:25.439 there were a few other Legionaire units that you know, 1754 01:37:25.920 --> 01:37:27.960 we were okay, but didn't really do much, didn't really 1755 01:37:27.960 --> 01:37:32.000 see much action, and Chosen was sort of formed, i 1756 01:37:32.039 --> 01:37:35.760 think as a sort of a more serious elite legion 1757 01:37:35.840 --> 01:37:41.199 within the Legion, as it were, and the selection criteria 1758 01:37:41.319 --> 01:37:43.640 was pretty rigorous. You had to have had i think 1759 01:37:44.199 --> 01:37:49.319 prior combat experience was certainly prior military experience. And also 1760 01:37:50.319 --> 01:37:52.640 you know, the idea was that you would be you 1761 01:37:52.680 --> 01:37:55.359 would be on prolonged deployments, no sort of spending one 1762 01:37:55.439 --> 01:37:57.680 week in the don Bass and the next week in 1763 01:37:57.720 --> 01:38:01.079 a bar in Kiev. And also that you would be 1764 01:38:02.039 --> 01:38:04.840 they were they were going to be frontline combat specialists, 1765 01:38:04.920 --> 01:38:08.039 doing trench charges and so on, and that you should 1766 01:38:08.119 --> 01:38:11.279 expect to be injured or killed. No no windin or 1767 01:38:11.279 --> 01:38:14.880 winding if that happened. So the pretty serious unit and 1768 01:38:16.119 --> 01:38:19.680 Jack Knight, you know, signed up to serve with them, 1769 01:38:20.000 --> 01:38:23.199 having had I think a slightly frustrating tour to start 1770 01:38:23.279 --> 01:38:26.119 off with where he'd you know, he'd done his best 1771 01:38:26.159 --> 01:38:28.399 to get stuck in in the action down south in 1772 01:38:28.880 --> 01:38:33.159 hous On in twenty twenty two, but then the Russians 1773 01:38:33.239 --> 01:38:36.439 rather unsportingly then pulled out of hers on, so the 1774 01:38:36.479 --> 01:38:38.680 big bat off of house on which I think he 1775 01:38:38.800 --> 01:38:42.560 was hoping to take part in, didn't happen, and he 1776 01:38:42.800 --> 01:38:44.760 sort of the count in the book him sort of 1777 01:38:44.760 --> 01:38:47.880 wandering about liberated her soon and being about the only 1778 01:38:47.960 --> 01:38:50.359 person who isn't, sort of cheering and waving, sort of 1779 01:38:50.439 --> 01:38:53.279 thinking like, you know, it's it's it's nice to be 1780 01:38:53.399 --> 01:38:55.760 here to see everybody free. But I would have liked 1781 01:38:55.800 --> 01:38:57.760 to have played more of a role in it. And 1782 01:38:58.680 --> 01:39:06.640 Jack joined the Chosen Company, I think partly to sort 1783 01:39:06.640 --> 01:39:10.960 of hope to get some proper action. And he had 1784 01:39:11.399 --> 01:39:14.800 partly in his in his sort of military in his 1785 01:39:14.920 --> 01:39:19.680 family history, his great great great grandfather had won the 1786 01:39:19.760 --> 01:39:23.800 Victoria Cross in World War One, and he was keen 1787 01:39:23.840 --> 01:39:27.039 to try and following his great great grandfather's footsteps because 1788 01:39:27.039 --> 01:39:29.000 he was from a military family and that kind of 1789 01:39:29.079 --> 01:39:31.520 thing runs quite thick in the blood if you've got 1790 01:39:31.520 --> 01:39:36.880 a distinguished ancestor. And yeah, during one of the battles 1791 01:39:36.920 --> 01:39:39.840 in the Don Bass, where they were trying to take 1792 01:39:40.359 --> 01:39:44.000 some trenches, things did not go according to plan. There 1793 01:39:44.159 --> 01:39:47.920 was a large number of soldiers of Chosen Company were 1794 01:39:47.960 --> 01:39:51.560 injured early on in the battle, and Jack, who was 1795 01:39:52.119 --> 01:39:54.000 staying at the back at the time because he was 1796 01:39:54.039 --> 01:39:56.720 there as a sapper ready to go in and clear 1797 01:39:56.840 --> 01:40:00.640 minds later on, realized that the he wasn't going to 1798 01:40:00.640 --> 01:40:03.079 be doing much mind clearance if everybody got killed and 1799 01:40:03.159 --> 01:40:07.520 didn't come back alive, so he volunteered to go into 1800 01:40:07.600 --> 01:40:10.840 the combat zone and try and stretcher a few people out, 1801 01:40:10.920 --> 01:40:16.199 and did so, I think, at one point, having to 1802 01:40:16.720 --> 01:40:20.760 rescue a bunch of Ukrainian guys who'd strayed into a landmine. 1803 01:40:21.079 --> 01:40:23.319 A minefield, and. 1804 01:40:24.800 --> 01:40:27.439 The way he told it's just decided to he had 1805 01:40:27.479 --> 01:40:30.479 no choice but just to walk randomly into the minefield 1806 01:40:30.560 --> 01:40:33.000 himself to get them and hope that he wouldn't get 1807 01:40:33.039 --> 01:40:38.079 blown up himself, basically ignoring everything he'd spent years training 1808 01:40:38.159 --> 01:40:44.760 to do during his Royal Ordnance and Supper Awareness course, 1809 01:40:45.079 --> 01:40:48.039 you know, which is always about probing the ground carefully 1810 01:40:48.079 --> 01:40:50.840 in front of you, if you're in a minefield with 1811 01:40:51.439 --> 01:40:54.479 a product thing and taking each sort of step, you know, 1812 01:40:54.800 --> 01:40:57.680 like an in time. He said, there's no time for that, 1813 01:40:57.960 --> 01:41:01.520 and you know, there were drones ahead, this machine gun fire. 1814 01:41:01.880 --> 01:41:03.239 I've just got to go for it and try and 1815 01:41:03.319 --> 01:41:04.840 get these guys out and hope for the best. 1816 01:41:04.880 --> 01:41:06.920 And that's what he did, and he ended up. 1817 01:41:06.800 --> 01:41:09.439 Getting himself a medal, and I think he felt that, 1818 01:41:09.920 --> 01:41:12.760 you know, he'd you know, to some extent at least 1819 01:41:12.960 --> 01:41:17.039 followed in his ancestors footsteps. So again, somebody who was 1820 01:41:17.279 --> 01:41:20.800 who was there very much looking for purpose, who didn't 1821 01:41:20.840 --> 01:41:24.319 really feel terribly happy in civilian life, and I think 1822 01:41:24.439 --> 01:41:26.399 certainly found it in Ukraine. 1823 01:41:27.560 --> 01:41:29.800 Doing things like that despite the sort of very high 1824 01:41:29.920 --> 01:41:30.920 risks that you were running. 1825 01:41:31.960 --> 01:41:34.840 And then kind of on like the darker side of things, 1826 01:41:35.079 --> 01:41:40.159 you talk about two international volunteers who were we think 1827 01:41:40.720 --> 01:41:41.920 murdered by their own people. 1828 01:41:43.319 --> 01:41:47.359 Yeah, I've got to be a little bit careful about 1829 01:41:47.399 --> 01:41:49.960 what I say on these ones, because I've written about 1830 01:41:50.000 --> 01:41:54.840 these cases extensively, both in the book and the you 1831 01:41:54.960 --> 01:41:58.600 know and and in the Telegraph, the newspaper I worked for, 1832 01:41:59.520 --> 01:42:02.520 and they both live cases as in there are you know, 1833 01:42:03.119 --> 01:42:07.319 nobody has been arrested in either case, yet there is 1834 01:42:07.359 --> 01:42:12.560 a particular suspect in one case. What one case involves 1835 01:42:12.600 --> 01:42:16.600 a guy called Daniel Burker, military volunteer that I interviewed 1836 01:42:16.640 --> 01:42:18.720 for the book several times and who I spent time 1837 01:42:18.760 --> 01:42:22.720 without in Ukraine. He had fought, like many of them have, 1838 01:42:22.920 --> 01:42:27.000 for the with the Kurdish antony Isis forces in in 1839 01:42:27.560 --> 01:42:31.279 in in Syria, and so when he came to Ukraine, 1840 01:42:31.319 --> 01:42:34.760 he brought a certain amount of experience as somebody who 1841 01:42:34.840 --> 01:42:37.399 was used to fighting, you know, the people's wars. He 1842 01:42:37.840 --> 01:42:41.520 he knew it would be disorganized, He knew you would 1843 01:42:41.560 --> 01:42:43.199 probably have to sort of get quite a lot of 1844 01:42:43.279 --> 01:42:46.279 things done for yourself. You couldn't expect to bure opposite 1845 01:42:46.359 --> 01:42:46.520 to do. 1846 01:42:46.600 --> 01:42:48.680 It for you. And it was a sort of mascot 1847 01:42:48.840 --> 01:42:52.119 in some ways for the for the volunteer, for the volunteers. 1848 01:42:52.600 --> 01:42:55.159 Early on he ran a unit called the Dark Angels 1849 01:42:55.199 --> 01:42:58.960 that did some earlier operations, that who posted details of 1850 01:42:59.439 --> 01:43:02.359 themselveshooting up a Russian tank on social. 1851 01:43:02.159 --> 01:43:04.119 Media that got huge numbers of followings. 1852 01:43:05.439 --> 01:43:08.079 And you know, it's kind of very much summarized the 1853 01:43:08.199 --> 01:43:09.960 kind of thing that a lot of volunteers wanted to 1854 01:43:10.039 --> 01:43:14.439 be doing I think, you know. But anyway, in late 1855 01:43:15.119 --> 01:43:21.439 twenty twenty September twenty twenty three or so, he'd actually 1856 01:43:21.560 --> 01:43:26.800 diversified into running a humanitarian mission instead, a sort of 1857 01:43:27.479 --> 01:43:31.039 frontline rescue and support mission, and he went missing for 1858 01:43:31.159 --> 01:43:31.840 several weeks. 1859 01:43:32.079 --> 01:43:33.520 Nobody knew what had happened to him. 1860 01:43:34.800 --> 01:43:37.399 It was the first maybe just been on a you know, 1861 01:43:37.800 --> 01:43:39.920 sort of a bit of a boozebender or something for 1862 01:43:39.960 --> 01:43:42.600 a few days. And if you know the legion are 1863 01:43:42.600 --> 01:43:44.560 as well, you'll know that it's not unusual for someone to, 1864 01:43:44.880 --> 01:43:46.359 you know, if they've been on a boozebender. 1865 01:43:46.560 --> 01:43:49.760 Don't expect that he had. Don't expect them to declare 1866 01:43:49.800 --> 01:43:53.560 the missing for at least about a week. But anyway, 1867 01:43:54.199 --> 01:43:57.000 he had indeed disappeared. 1868 01:43:57.880 --> 01:44:01.000 A police investigation was launched out of actually and his 1869 01:44:01.159 --> 01:44:06.279 body was recovered from under a sewer or a culvert 1870 01:44:06.720 --> 01:44:10.279 near a firing range in the countryside outside of Zaparista 1871 01:44:10.399 --> 01:44:14.840 in eastern Ukraine. And I think initially people thought, well, 1872 01:44:14.880 --> 01:44:17.000 maybe you know, of Russian has done this or something 1873 01:44:17.079 --> 01:44:20.279 like that, but it later became clear that a fellow 1874 01:44:20.399 --> 01:44:26.439 volunteer had carried out well, it appeared to have carried this, 1875 01:44:26.920 --> 01:44:32.079 this this killing out. This volunteer later claimed that he'd 1876 01:44:32.159 --> 01:44:39.600 shot Daniel by mistake, having sort of pretended to what 1877 01:44:39.720 --> 01:44:42.199 was it he said, He said, I think I think 1878 01:44:42.239 --> 01:44:44.720 the term is fragging, where you point a weapon at 1879 01:44:44.800 --> 01:44:48.000 somebody when you shouldn't do and you know it's violating 1880 01:44:48.079 --> 01:44:52.079 basic military procedure. Apparently Daniel had said to him, you're 1881 01:44:52.119 --> 01:44:55.239 fagging me while they're out of this range, just having 1882 01:44:55.279 --> 01:44:56.399 a practice shoot or something. 1883 01:44:56.920 --> 01:45:03.600 Flagging, flagging, flagging or fragging flagging. So flagging is when 1884 01:45:03.600 --> 01:45:07.039 you're going over with your muzzle over friendly guys that 1885 01:45:07.119 --> 01:45:09.640 you don't want to shoot. Fragging is when you actually 1886 01:45:09.800 --> 01:45:11.760 kill one of your own guys intentionally. 1887 01:45:13.760 --> 01:45:14.119 Flagging. 1888 01:45:14.199 --> 01:45:17.039 Yeah, well, basically when you're pointing your weapon at somebody. 1889 01:45:17.319 --> 01:45:20.479 Sorry for anyone listening, I'm not I'm not an ex soldier, 1890 01:45:20.520 --> 01:45:25.399 So worries when you point a weapon at somebody you 1891 01:45:25.520 --> 01:45:29.279 know who's a friendly force. You know something that you 1892 01:45:29.359 --> 01:45:32.920 know every boy whatever given a gun or an air 1893 01:45:33.000 --> 01:45:35.680 gun from you know, the death from the age of five, 1894 01:45:35.880 --> 01:45:38.720 which is the first rule of weapons craft you ever told. 1895 01:45:38.960 --> 01:45:41.000 Never point a gun at anyone, whether it's loaded or not. 1896 01:45:43.000 --> 01:45:48.159 Apparently this this suspect in his shooting had he later 1897 01:45:48.319 --> 01:45:54.960 told police that he had pointed the gun Daniel Daniels, 1898 01:45:55.520 --> 01:46:00.319 don't do that, mate, that's stupid, remonstrated from UH, at 1899 01:46:00.359 --> 01:46:05.720 which point the suspect and then apparently so they said, 1900 01:46:05.720 --> 01:46:08.840 don't worry, the gun is not loaded, and then fired, 1901 01:46:09.039 --> 01:46:11.600 you know, pulled the trigger on the gun at Daniel, 1902 01:46:12.039 --> 01:46:14.560 and sure enough the gun was loaded. He emptied a 1903 01:46:14.640 --> 01:46:17.359 burst into him and killed him, then panicked and hid 1904 01:46:17.439 --> 01:46:20.039 him in his body in this sewer. This was the 1905 01:46:20.119 --> 01:46:23.680 account that he allegedly later gave to police who arrested him. 1906 01:46:25.199 --> 01:46:27.720 It's not verified, so I should put that whole warning 1907 01:46:27.760 --> 01:46:30.600 on it. But as you can imagine, it raises more 1908 01:46:30.680 --> 01:46:35.119 questions than it answers why I would experienced soldier ever 1909 01:46:35.199 --> 01:46:38.039 point a gun at anybody in the first place, let 1910 01:46:38.079 --> 01:46:41.720 alone then pulled the trigger on somebody, Because if you 1911 01:46:41.840 --> 01:46:45.000 imagine that happening in real life, even if that gun 1912 01:46:45.159 --> 01:46:47.600 was not loaded, the next thing that Daniel would likely 1913 01:46:47.640 --> 01:46:50.279 have done, having already been annoyed, would probably give him 1914 01:46:50.279 --> 01:46:52.640 a punch him in the face. They said, don't you 1915 01:46:52.680 --> 01:46:54.479 ever fucking do that again? I would have done I 1916 01:46:54.479 --> 01:46:59.359 think so the explanation sort of doesn't seem to sort 1917 01:46:59.399 --> 01:47:04.359 of bear much truth, unfortunately, for reasons that I've never 1918 01:47:04.399 --> 01:47:05.119 been made clear. 1919 01:47:05.520 --> 01:47:09.840 The Ukrainian police then let this individual go. 1920 01:47:11.479 --> 01:47:13.560 He was released on bail to a hotel, and then 1921 01:47:13.600 --> 01:47:16.600 he then made himself scarce, perhaps not surprisingly. 1922 01:47:16.279 --> 01:47:21.359 And he's on the lamp. So he's on the lamp still, yeah. 1923 01:47:21.319 --> 01:47:23.319 And as well, perhaps this dayre unknown, but he is 1924 01:47:23.399 --> 01:47:27.159 wanted by the Ukrainian police in connection with Daniel's death. 1925 01:47:29.079 --> 01:47:30.960 I cover that one in the book quite a bit, 1926 01:47:31.000 --> 01:47:36.239 partly because I knew Daniel, and partly I wanted to 1927 01:47:36.439 --> 01:47:38.840 sort of try and give a deepailed account of what happened, 1928 01:47:38.840 --> 01:47:40.159 because there was a lot of a great deal. 1929 01:47:40.039 --> 01:47:43.039 Of claim and counterclaiming it, and. 1930 01:47:43.880 --> 01:47:47.920 Partly because it's sort of when he disappeared, it was 1931 01:47:48.560 --> 01:47:52.520 very very soon. The finger of suspicion pointed a fellow Legionnaires. 1932 01:47:52.560 --> 01:47:55.159 Even though nobody knew what had happened at that point. 1933 01:47:55.520 --> 01:47:57.079 It was just this sort of sense that there are 1934 01:47:57.079 --> 01:48:00.319 a lot of dodgy Legionnaires out there, and it seems 1935 01:48:00.439 --> 01:48:04.319 likely that Daniels as unfortunately, had some sort of running 1936 01:48:04.399 --> 01:48:06.960 with one of them, and you know, it just pointed 1937 01:48:07.039 --> 01:48:11.159 to the sort of the sense that there were a 1938 01:48:11.239 --> 01:48:14.359 lot of unsavory characters out there, and that the Legion's 1939 01:48:14.439 --> 01:48:16.680 vetting was not very good. It did not point a 1940 01:48:16.800 --> 01:48:20.239 very good picture of the Legion at that point. And 1941 01:48:20.359 --> 01:48:22.760 that was similar in the other case that I write 1942 01:48:22.760 --> 01:48:27.880 about the book where a Legionnaire called them. Jordan Chadick, 1943 01:48:27.960 --> 01:48:30.600 a British guy who was an ex member of the 1944 01:48:31.119 --> 01:48:35.399 Well Scots Guards who was found in a reservoir in 1945 01:48:35.600 --> 01:48:41.399 eastern Ukraine some way from the front lines in the 1946 01:48:41.479 --> 01:48:44.159 summer of twenty twenty three, was lying in the dead 1947 01:48:44.239 --> 01:48:46.760 in the reservoir and his hands tied behind his back. 1948 01:48:47.680 --> 01:48:50.199 As I say, the reservoir was some way from the 1949 01:48:50.239 --> 01:48:54.199 front line, so it was he did not appear to 1950 01:48:54.279 --> 01:48:58.760 have been killed by Russian soldiers. There were no known 1951 01:48:58.840 --> 01:49:02.199 Russian separatist crews operating in that area or indeed anywhere 1952 01:49:02.199 --> 01:49:05.840 else in you know, Ukrainian territory, so it couldn't didn't 1953 01:49:05.840 --> 01:49:09.640 seem like it was them either. And again suspicion quickly 1954 01:49:09.720 --> 01:49:15.399 focused on his fellow Legionnaires and apparently had an argument 1955 01:49:15.439 --> 01:49:18.800 the night before with a bunch of his fellow legionaires 1956 01:49:18.840 --> 01:49:23.279 while drinking, and some sort of fight had broken out, 1957 01:49:25.079 --> 01:49:27.920 and the next thing that anybody knew was that he 1958 01:49:28.159 --> 01:49:30.079 you know, his body had shown up in this in 1959 01:49:30.159 --> 01:49:30.600 this lake. 1960 01:49:31.000 --> 01:49:32.119 There's a there's there's. 1961 01:49:31.920 --> 01:49:33.359 A limit of what I can say on that one 1962 01:49:33.399 --> 01:49:37.600 again because it's, uh, it's quite a complicated story. There's 1963 01:49:37.600 --> 01:49:42.039 a lot of he said, they said, I probably couldn't 1964 01:49:42.079 --> 01:49:44.760 do justice to on a podcast even if I even 1965 01:49:44.800 --> 01:49:45.439 if I tried to. 1966 01:49:45.600 --> 01:49:48.359 But the story is given about how he ended up 1967 01:49:48.359 --> 01:49:50.119 in that reservoir just don't make sense. 1968 01:49:51.039 --> 01:49:54.920 No, yeah, uh, you know, at one point it was 1969 01:49:55.000 --> 01:49:57.159 said that he was being taken to a local police 1970 01:49:57.199 --> 01:50:00.520 station where you know, he was going to be held 1971 01:50:00.560 --> 01:50:03.640 because he was drunk, but instead he ended up in 1972 01:50:03.720 --> 01:50:07.520 this in this reservoir instead. And you have to ask 1973 01:50:07.560 --> 01:50:09.880 yourself if somebody is supposed to be getting taken to 1974 01:50:09.960 --> 01:50:12.640 a police station because they're drunk and have you know, 1975 01:50:12.720 --> 01:50:16.680 they're they've needed to be restrained by handcuffs for their 1976 01:50:16.720 --> 01:50:19.199 own safety because they've been involved in the punch up, 1977 01:50:20.439 --> 01:50:22.039 how does that end up with them then. 1978 01:50:22.159 --> 01:50:23.119 Dead in a reservoir. 1979 01:50:23.279 --> 01:50:26.640 You know, somebody somewhere who would have been you know, 1980 01:50:27.199 --> 01:50:30.359 in charge of him as a you know, you know, 1981 01:50:30.680 --> 01:50:35.359 in custody has some questions to answer, clearly, because even 1982 01:50:35.399 --> 01:50:37.840 if somebody has been violent, even if somebody has been 1983 01:50:37.920 --> 01:50:41.760 restrained as a prisoner, you know, at that point most 1984 01:50:41.800 --> 01:50:44.239 soldiers would know, especially if they've ever taken prisoner as 1985 01:50:44.279 --> 01:50:47.319 a war or anything, that there are certain proceedures you 1986 01:50:47.479 --> 01:50:50.399 follow to you know, if only to prevent a prisoner 1987 01:50:50.800 --> 01:50:54.399 harming themselves or or anything else. And clearly that wasn't 1988 01:50:55.159 --> 01:50:58.560 that didn't happen. And the the tragedy of that case, 1989 01:50:58.560 --> 01:51:02.840 and one of the tragedies is that, uh, quite apart 1990 01:51:02.880 --> 01:51:06.239 from Jordan's death, is that you know, nobody has been 1991 01:51:06.279 --> 01:51:08.239 brought to book for it, and there's a very little 1992 01:51:08.279 --> 01:51:11.640 sign of any proper judicial process happening, and very little 1993 01:51:11.680 --> 01:51:15.279 sign of the British government really doing anything to try 1994 01:51:15.319 --> 01:51:18.680 and question the other British soldiers who were with him 1995 01:51:18.680 --> 01:51:21.359 at the time. I've spoken several of them. I've asked them, 1996 01:51:21.920 --> 01:51:24.640 you know, did you know, have you had any anybody 1997 01:51:24.680 --> 01:51:27.399 from the Foreign Office or the British Police asking to 1998 01:51:27.439 --> 01:51:29.760 speak to you about this? None of them have, you know, 1999 01:51:30.000 --> 01:51:33.119 And that would not be that would not be difficult 2000 01:51:33.119 --> 01:51:35.800 if I can find out who they are. The you know, 2001 01:51:36.039 --> 01:51:38.359 the Ukrainian police know who they are, They interviewed them 2002 01:51:38.359 --> 01:51:42.479 all afterwards. They just think what wise are wise are 2003 01:51:42.520 --> 01:51:47.920 proceding not on the way so that Jordan's mother, among 2004 01:51:48.000 --> 01:51:51.119 other people, can get some proper answers about what happened, 2005 01:51:51.399 --> 01:51:54.199 even if it turns out it was some sort of misadventure. 2006 01:51:55.239 --> 01:51:57.479 But that that that is life in the legion. You know, 2007 01:51:57.560 --> 01:52:02.920 you're often not fighting with with with people who you're 2008 01:52:02.920 --> 01:52:05.760 often fighting with kind of rough diamonds of different sorts, 2009 01:52:06.479 --> 01:52:11.000 and some who are not diamonds at all. But you know, 2010 01:52:11.119 --> 01:52:13.359 it's what also DAWs draws them to it. 2011 01:52:13.399 --> 01:52:14.319 And it was one of them. 2012 01:52:14.880 --> 01:52:18.000 I was speaking to him who fought in that same 2013 01:52:18.159 --> 01:52:22.920 unit with Jordan. Uh, you know, in often very tough combat. 2014 01:52:23.000 --> 01:52:28.520 That's why they're all pistols. Pistols, you know, is drunk, 2015 01:52:28.720 --> 01:52:31.479 very drunk. So using the English leave was that was 2016 01:52:31.520 --> 01:52:33.720 why they were all very drunk when this fight broke out. 2017 01:52:33.760 --> 01:52:36.239 They were drinking off for stress and a very very 2018 01:52:37.159 --> 01:52:42.359 tough few months of deployment to back Mud. And yeah, 2019 01:52:42.399 --> 01:52:43.880 I said to this guy, what, you know, what was 2020 01:52:43.920 --> 01:52:47.079 it like fighting out there? This other guy was in 2021 01:52:47.159 --> 01:52:48.399 the unit, and he said, yeah, it was, you know, 2022 01:52:49.000 --> 01:52:52.239 really really hard going, really tough, you know, And I said, 2023 01:52:52.319 --> 01:52:53.800 you know, did you find it difficult? 2024 01:52:53.840 --> 01:52:56.479 He said, yeah, but I fucking loved it. And I 2025 01:52:56.560 --> 01:52:56.880 think that. 2026 01:52:57.039 --> 01:53:02.039 Sums up the Legion experience in its classic sense for 2027 01:53:02.079 --> 01:53:02.720 a lot of the movie. 2028 01:53:04.119 --> 01:53:06.479 And I mean, taking it from there, I want to 2029 01:53:06.920 --> 01:53:11.520 kind of ask you about any concluding thoughts you have about, 2030 01:53:12.279 --> 01:53:16.199 you know, your work studying and interviewing the foreigners that 2031 01:53:16.319 --> 01:53:19.520 served in Ukraine and sort of their impact in the war. 2032 01:53:20.319 --> 01:53:21.840 I think at the end of the book you have 2033 01:53:21.920 --> 01:53:25.520 an interesting segment where you talk about how, you know, 2034 01:53:26.399 --> 01:53:29.159 every single person on the battlefield makes a difference in 2035 01:53:29.199 --> 01:53:33.439 their own small way, but the foreigners and big picture 2036 01:53:33.920 --> 01:53:37.720 were probably not strategically relevant to the overall scheme of 2037 01:53:37.800 --> 01:53:38.319 the war. 2038 01:53:39.000 --> 01:53:43.000 Not enough of them. Ye oh that's right, you yeah, yeah, sure. 2039 01:53:43.119 --> 01:53:48.159 So as just said, I don't think the numbers ever 2040 01:53:48.239 --> 01:53:51.239 reached money much more than sort of twenty or thirty thousand, 2041 01:53:51.359 --> 01:53:55.680 maybe a few more over the years. But that's so 2042 01:53:55.920 --> 01:53:58.479 rough bull puck figure. She's about to say much she 2043 01:53:58.600 --> 01:54:01.439 has fought in the Spanish Civil War and coincidentally is 2044 01:54:01.479 --> 01:54:05.319 about the same numbers that volunteered to fight for ISIS 2045 01:54:05.760 --> 01:54:09.359 as in fighting as jahadists in Iraq and Syria from 2046 01:54:09.399 --> 01:54:11.840 around the world, which puts it into sort of some 2047 01:54:12.000 --> 01:54:15.720 sort of weird perspective. So with those sort of numbers 2048 01:54:15.920 --> 01:54:17.800 in a war with you know, maybe about half a 2049 01:54:17.880 --> 01:54:21.399 million competents on either side are possibly more thirty five 2050 01:54:21.520 --> 01:54:23.720 thousand or so, Even if it was that many, it's 2051 01:54:23.760 --> 01:54:25.960 not going to make that much of a difference. Where 2052 01:54:26.000 --> 01:54:28.479 I think the legion did make a difference, there was 2053 01:54:28.560 --> 01:54:32.640 just in morale Ukrainians, ordinary Ukrainians in the street would 2054 01:54:32.680 --> 01:54:36.600 see these guys wandering around in you know, in Ukrainian uniforms, 2055 01:54:36.640 --> 01:54:40.000 but with these little sort of shoulder badges denoting the 2056 01:54:40.039 --> 01:54:42.079 fact that they were from the UK or the US 2057 01:54:42.319 --> 01:54:43.039 or wherever. 2058 01:54:43.439 --> 01:54:44.840 And it was a huge. 2059 01:54:46.039 --> 01:54:47.600 You know, it was a sign to a lot of 2060 01:54:47.680 --> 01:54:50.680 Ukrainians that look, you know, the world is with you here, 2061 01:54:50.760 --> 01:54:54.319 we believe in your cause. And yeah, sure, foreign governments, 2062 01:54:54.359 --> 01:54:57.159 Western governments might not be sending troops. They may not 2063 01:54:57.399 --> 01:55:00.319 they may not be putting boots on the ground, their 2064 01:55:00.359 --> 01:55:03.720 own private citizens are and they're here not just to 2065 01:55:03.840 --> 01:55:07.600 handout aid and deliver you know, first aid packages and 2066 01:55:07.720 --> 01:55:11.000 medical stuff. They're actually here to fight and die alongside you. 2067 01:55:11.399 --> 01:55:14.439 That's a big morale booster, I think as well as 2068 01:55:14.560 --> 01:55:19.680 the you know, the the the individual tactical contributions that 2069 01:55:19.720 --> 01:55:22.880 they made, whether it was experienced US marines, for example, 2070 01:55:23.319 --> 01:55:28.119 teaching Ukrainians certain tactical stuff, or whether it was individual 2071 01:55:28.159 --> 01:55:32.920 groups of volunteers showing metal and initiative. Initiative on the battlefield, 2072 01:55:33.199 --> 01:55:35.760 which might often just be like, you know, taking a 2073 01:55:36.439 --> 01:55:39.800 Russian machine gun position there, or making a good judgment 2074 01:55:39.960 --> 01:55:42.880 call somewhere else, saying now, maybe that that's going to 2075 01:55:42.920 --> 01:55:44.600 be too tough, stay away from that, that's going to 2076 01:55:44.600 --> 01:55:48.039 be too difficult, you know, just sound tactical advice. I 2077 01:55:48.119 --> 01:55:50.520 think a lot of that percolated through to the Ukrainians 2078 01:55:50.600 --> 01:55:54.600 over time. But yeah, one of the I think that 2079 01:55:55.119 --> 01:55:57.680 because you had a lot of bad apples, and because 2080 01:55:57.720 --> 01:56:01.840 they didn't have any huge struty victories were an individual 2081 01:56:01.960 --> 01:56:06.880 battalion of Legionnaires kind of took a town or village, 2082 01:56:07.159 --> 01:56:12.000 there weren't many good headlines that the Legions generated. Really unfortunately. 2083 01:56:12.079 --> 01:56:15.800 A lot of the headlines were about Legionaires killed, legionnaires captured, 2084 01:56:16.159 --> 01:56:20.600 legionnaires murdered by the Legionnaires, et cetera, and that perhaps 2085 01:56:20.680 --> 01:56:24.800 did not encourage a you know, many others to sort 2086 01:56:24.800 --> 01:56:26.199 of join up or certainly that. 2087 01:56:27.800 --> 01:56:32.439 Perhaps not as many as might have done. And also the. 2088 01:56:34.039 --> 01:56:38.359 The logistics around the Legion were pretty poor in terms 2089 01:56:38.399 --> 01:56:40.479 of people coming in, you know and not sort of 2090 01:56:40.720 --> 01:56:46.199 you know, the recruitment system was poor, the system to 2091 01:56:46.239 --> 01:56:49.880 actually get them channeled out to the front was lousy, 2092 01:56:49.880 --> 01:56:52.560 and so on. And I do make the point in 2093 01:56:52.640 --> 01:56:56.399 the book that if they'd had a better recruitment system 2094 01:56:56.479 --> 01:57:01.239 and sort of watermastering system and everything else it's just 2095 01:57:01.319 --> 01:57:04.479 been better organized, you might have had far more Legionaires 2096 01:57:04.560 --> 01:57:04.920 coming in. 2097 01:57:06.000 --> 01:57:08.159 This is something I've interested in your opinion, or. 2098 01:57:08.199 --> 01:57:13.279 Actually because I know you've discussed people like outfits like 2099 01:57:13.399 --> 01:57:16.079 Dying Core and Blackwater a lot on the podcasts in 2100 01:57:16.159 --> 01:57:20.880 the past. My sort of theory, or one of the 2101 01:57:21.279 --> 01:57:23.439 theories I advanced to the book is that, you know, 2102 01:57:23.760 --> 01:57:26.960 if the West had been able to provide some sort 2103 01:57:26.960 --> 01:57:30.520 of logistical support for the Legion along the lines of 2104 01:57:30.600 --> 01:57:35.039 a Dying Core or a Blackwater training, that could have 2105 01:57:35.840 --> 01:57:37.840 trained the legionnaires in the same way as they trained 2106 01:57:37.920 --> 01:57:40.399 up the Iraqi Army and the Iraqi police or the 2107 01:57:40.479 --> 01:57:43.920 Afghan army, and that that could have been done, you know, 2108 01:57:44.039 --> 01:57:46.359 in ukrainive needs to be I think, or if need 2109 01:57:46.479 --> 01:57:49.039 be elsewhere, and it could have been done on a 2110 01:57:49.119 --> 01:57:52.800 private basis, that might have made a lot of difference because. 2111 01:57:54.520 --> 01:57:55.439 Bruising experiences. 2112 01:57:55.880 --> 01:57:57.920 You know, Putin got to have his little green Man. 2113 01:57:58.159 --> 01:57:59.439 Why can't we have ours? 2114 01:58:00.159 --> 01:58:00.800 Exactly? Yeah? 2115 01:58:00.880 --> 01:58:04.960 Yeah, I mean do you think I mean that there 2116 01:58:05.039 --> 01:58:08.720 is a political difficulty with it in the British and 2117 01:58:08.760 --> 01:58:11.039 American governments for example, might feel that it was a 2118 01:58:11.079 --> 01:58:14.520 step too far, that it was it was one step 2119 01:58:14.600 --> 01:58:17.399 off training troops. But I mean, you know, they were 2120 01:58:17.520 --> 01:58:20.159 sending in heavy weaponry, they were sending in you know, 2121 01:58:20.359 --> 01:58:22.600 they were training Ukrainians in their own countries. 2122 01:58:22.680 --> 01:58:25.159 We have Ukrainian training facilities here in the UK. 2123 01:58:25.560 --> 01:58:28.359 They were doing everything short of that, and in some 2124 01:58:28.479 --> 01:58:31.640 ways things quite beyond that, with the heavy missiles and everything. 2125 01:58:32.760 --> 01:58:33.600 Do you think that. 2126 01:58:33.920 --> 01:58:38.359 Somewhere like Dying Core or Blackwater would have taken on 2127 01:58:38.560 --> 01:58:39.840 something like that or do you think it would have 2128 01:58:39.880 --> 01:58:45.439 been hard to get you know, PMCs to take on 2129 01:58:45.640 --> 01:58:46.119 such a thing. 2130 01:58:46.640 --> 01:58:51.119 I think yeah, you could. Probably. The thing with private 2131 01:58:51.199 --> 01:58:54.399 military companies in the United States is that they don't 2132 01:58:54.439 --> 01:58:59.439 really engage in offensive combat operations. We don't really have 2133 01:58:59.640 --> 01:59:04.239 that much. We have intelligence contractors, we have logistical contractors, 2134 01:59:04.399 --> 01:59:09.319 security contractors that do mobile and static security for diplomats 2135 01:59:09.319 --> 01:59:12.840 and so on, but we don't have like executive outcomes 2136 01:59:13.199 --> 01:59:15.680 that you know, the South Africans that fought in Angola 2137 01:59:15.720 --> 01:59:18.279 and Sierra Leone and they really took the fight to 2138 01:59:18.359 --> 01:59:21.399 the enemy and didn't take any ship at all. We 2139 01:59:21.680 --> 01:59:25.239 don't really have an equivalent of that. And I guess 2140 01:59:25.279 --> 01:59:28.640 the question is should we have something like that, and 2141 01:59:28.960 --> 01:59:30.319 maybe maybe Yeah. 2142 01:59:31.000 --> 01:59:32.880 I don't even think you need the equivalent of that though, 2143 01:59:32.920 --> 01:59:36.119 because what this would be for would be for the training, and. 2144 01:59:37.479 --> 01:59:39.520 It would be it would be a Ukrainian unit with. 2145 01:59:39.680 --> 01:59:44.239 Military to the Ukrainian military units, right, so you wouldn't 2146 01:59:44.319 --> 01:59:48.159 necessarily need the organizers at the you know, at the 2147 01:59:48.239 --> 01:59:49.920 shop and a bit like what you You would have 2148 01:59:50.319 --> 01:59:52.199 pretty much the same model as you'd have in a 2149 01:59:52.319 --> 01:59:57.119 Rock and Afghanistan, a large scale sort of public sect 2150 01:59:57.199 --> 01:59:59.920 to the large scale security set to training. 2151 02:00:00.079 --> 02:00:00.239 Yeah. 2152 02:00:00.800 --> 02:00:03.640 I think that in the United States at least and 2153 02:00:03.800 --> 02:00:07.960 to a lesser extent Western Europe. I think we're we 2154 02:00:08.359 --> 02:00:12.159 were and we are a victim of you know, seventy 2155 02:00:12.600 --> 02:00:16.960 seventy five years of analysis of the Soviet Union in Russia. 2156 02:00:17.720 --> 02:00:19.840 That turned out to be wrong in a lot of ways. 2157 02:00:19.920 --> 02:00:22.800 And we had all these theories about escalation ladders and 2158 02:00:22.920 --> 02:00:24.439 we're going to do this and then they'll do that. 2159 02:00:25.119 --> 02:00:28.439 I mean, I think in retrospect, we probably should have 2160 02:00:28.560 --> 02:00:31.359 just thrown up a no fly zone over Ukraine the 2161 02:00:31.479 --> 02:00:34.479 day of the invasion and they're like no, like, no, 2162 02:00:34.640 --> 02:00:38.359 this is unacceptable, and it called putin call him out. 2163 02:00:38.520 --> 02:00:41.680 I mean, as we know, the Russians only respond when 2164 02:00:41.720 --> 02:00:43.960 you punch them in the nose and tell them no, 2165 02:00:44.640 --> 02:00:45.800 like that's not acceptable. 2166 02:00:46.520 --> 02:00:48.640 Well, that's certainly there was a lot of Ukrainian is 2167 02:00:48.720 --> 02:00:50.640 asking about that at the beginning of the war. Yeah, 2168 02:00:50.800 --> 02:00:52.920 I mean I would have said that even that was 2169 02:00:53.279 --> 02:00:53.840 that would. 2170 02:00:53.640 --> 02:00:55.680 Have been riskier than yes. 2171 02:00:56.079 --> 02:00:58.600 Yeah, yeah, what I'm sort of what I've sort of 2172 02:00:58.680 --> 02:01:02.239 exploring the in the last chapter of the book. And 2173 02:01:02.359 --> 02:01:04.119 also would I mean, it would have been valuable for 2174 02:01:04.199 --> 02:01:07.319 the you know, the Britains, for the Western forces because 2175 02:01:07.600 --> 02:01:10.640 you'd have had loads of people going out there and 2176 02:01:10.800 --> 02:01:13.960 gaining first hand experience of what it was actually like 2177 02:01:14.039 --> 02:01:16.479 to fight against the Russians, which would be, you know, 2178 02:01:16.840 --> 02:01:19.600 which would be extremely useful. And I think it would 2179 02:01:19.600 --> 02:01:23.159 have probably attracted a far you know, potentially far more 2180 02:01:25.199 --> 02:01:30.199 soldiers you know, into the Ukrainian military fold, because there'd 2181 02:01:30.239 --> 02:01:32.439 be a lot of people who probably like. 2182 02:01:33.000 --> 02:01:36.079 Us, including serving US military soldiers. 2183 02:01:36.279 --> 02:01:39.880 They might have had, you know, take a sabbatical of 2184 02:01:39.960 --> 02:01:42.560 some sort, who would say that, you know, a few 2185 02:01:42.680 --> 02:01:45.159 three months fighting in Ukraine on the front lines is 2186 02:01:45.239 --> 02:01:49.520 worth several years of training back home. I mean, it 2187 02:01:49.600 --> 02:01:52.560 strikes me as a little bit of a failure of imagination. 2188 02:01:52.680 --> 02:01:54.520 I can think of all sorts of good reasons why 2189 02:01:55.039 --> 02:01:58.800 it wouldn't happen. But that's always the case when you 2190 02:01:58.920 --> 02:02:00.880 get a war. There's always people who are going to 2191 02:02:00.920 --> 02:02:03.319 say we can't do this for reasons they be and c. 2192 02:02:03.520 --> 02:02:07.319 And often it's it's when people kind of find a 2193 02:02:07.399 --> 02:02:08.279 reason around that that. 2194 02:02:08.359 --> 02:02:09.319 You get a breakthrough. 2195 02:02:10.399 --> 02:02:14.439 I'd be interested to see, you know, I've not sort 2196 02:02:14.439 --> 02:02:17.680 of found anybody who's who's really sort of been able 2197 02:02:17.720 --> 02:02:19.439 to sort of argue the ins and outs of this 2198 02:02:19.479 --> 02:02:21.079 will I'll be interested to see if any of your 2199 02:02:21.520 --> 02:02:24.039 listeners have a reason to say, na, sorry, part of 2200 02:02:24.079 --> 02:02:25.880 that wouldn't work, you know, which they may well be, 2201 02:02:26.039 --> 02:02:29.640 but it seems a bit like a missed opportunity to me, 2202 02:02:29.760 --> 02:02:32.680 I must say, and I do remember there's a guy 2203 02:02:32.720 --> 02:02:34.640 in the book who I quote who sort of says 2204 02:02:35.800 --> 02:02:38.119 it was a former US Army soldier I think he 2205 02:02:38.239 --> 02:02:41.119 was unfortunately was actually killed out in Ukraine. And he says, 2206 02:02:41.199 --> 02:02:44.880 you know, it surprises me. They're not fucked tons of 2207 02:02:45.000 --> 02:02:47.479 guys from West point out here just learning the ropes, 2208 02:02:49.800 --> 02:02:51.159 you know, like you. 2209 02:02:51.199 --> 02:02:53.399 Know, he was amazed that the legion was as small 2210 02:02:53.439 --> 02:02:55.119 as it was. And I think it's a telling point. 2211 02:02:57.640 --> 02:03:00.279 So the book, for people who want to read it, 2212 02:03:00.359 --> 02:03:02.800 I highly recommend it is The Mad and the Brave. 2213 02:03:03.720 --> 02:03:08.039 It's a story of Ukraine's foreign legion. Available now. You 2214 02:03:08.159 --> 02:03:10.920 can find it in bookshops or on Amazon wherever you 2215 02:03:11.000 --> 02:03:14.600 want to go. Colin, What's what's the next book? What 2216 02:03:14.680 --> 02:03:15.520 are you working on now? 2217 02:03:16.880 --> 02:03:20.239 Oh? No idea I've done. I think I've done three 2218 02:03:20.319 --> 02:03:20.720 year before. 2219 02:03:20.760 --> 02:03:23.199 I've done one about my time in the one about 2220 02:03:23.279 --> 02:03:27.439 being kidnapped in Somalia, otherwise about some other people being kidnapped. 2221 02:03:28.079 --> 02:03:28.880 I have no idea. 2222 02:03:29.640 --> 02:03:32.159 Books do not grow on trees where I know, either 2223 02:03:32.199 --> 02:03:36.760 where I'm from. Sadly, I often think I would like 2224 02:03:36.800 --> 02:03:40.319 to do another one on the Ukrainian Legion because every 2225 02:03:40.399 --> 02:03:42.680 time I meet a Legionaire, even if it's just for 2226 02:03:42.720 --> 02:03:47.039 a five minute conversation, they always tell me something that 2227 02:03:47.119 --> 02:03:49.840 happened to them on the battle that makes you think 2228 02:03:50.199 --> 02:03:52.119 Jesus Christ, I could have got a chapter in the 2229 02:03:52.159 --> 02:03:52.760 book out of that. 2230 02:03:53.119 --> 02:03:55.359 I wish I'd met you before. You know, that's on 2231 02:03:55.439 --> 02:03:57.119 the basis of a five minute conversation. 2232 02:03:57.520 --> 02:03:58.439 Yeah, I think you should. 2233 02:03:58.560 --> 02:04:02.920 Millions, million and ones stories still to be to be 2234 02:04:03.000 --> 02:04:06.399 written about the Legion and my one basically was kind 2235 02:04:06.439 --> 02:04:09.520 of written to deadline to make sure it came out early, 2236 02:04:11.039 --> 02:04:14.479 so you know you, I would not necessarily claim the 2237 02:04:14.520 --> 02:04:18.439 stories I've done are necessarily the most thrilling stories that 2238 02:04:18.560 --> 02:04:21.439 the Legionnaires have out there, but maybe the history books 2239 02:04:21.479 --> 02:04:22.279 will give them. 2240 02:04:22.760 --> 02:04:24.960 Maybe I'll do another we'll see that'd be great. 2241 02:04:26.119 --> 02:04:28.119 And where can people find you online? Do you have 2242 02:04:28.319 --> 02:04:30.079 a website or social media or anything. 2243 02:04:30.319 --> 02:04:32.680 The easiest way to reached me is on my Twitter feed, 2244 02:04:32.760 --> 02:04:35.600 which I'm also on the Blue Sky b or whatever 2245 02:04:35.600 --> 02:04:35.920 it's called. 2246 02:04:35.960 --> 02:04:36.319 The one. 2247 02:04:37.000 --> 02:04:42.399 It's Colin Freeman nine to nine at so as upon 2248 02:04:42.479 --> 02:04:46.000 Me at Colin Freeman ninety nine is my Twitter feed 2249 02:04:46.279 --> 02:04:48.359 and also, to be honest, if you google me, you'll 2250 02:04:48.439 --> 02:04:53.159 see me see the book and my Telegraph home pace 2251 02:04:53.239 --> 02:04:56.600 on fairly easy to find you and I can also 2252 02:04:56.720 --> 02:05:00.520 be found at Colin dot Freeman at Telegraph dot com UK, 2253 02:05:00.680 --> 02:05:03.880 which is my generic Telegraph email. 2254 02:05:04.079 --> 02:05:06.520 I do check my email and my Twitter feed pretty 2255 02:05:06.960 --> 02:05:12.039 rankyly on my on my call it spams. 2256 02:05:12.119 --> 02:05:14.119 So yeah, if anybody ever wants to get in touch, 2257 02:05:15.319 --> 02:05:17.880 feel free to you. And thank you to anyone out 2258 02:05:17.920 --> 02:05:21.840 there who's who's listening. And I hope I haven't made 2259 02:05:22.000 --> 02:05:25.079 too many sort of faux pas or bloopers in terms 2260 02:05:25.119 --> 02:05:26.199 of my military knowledge. 2261 02:05:26.640 --> 02:05:29.119 No, no, it was great, and we'll have links down 2262 02:05:29.199 --> 02:05:32.640 the description for all of that stuff that where you 2263 02:05:32.720 --> 02:05:35.680 can go and find Colin in his book. Thank you 2264 02:05:35.800 --> 02:05:38.279 for joining us tonight, Colin, I really appreciate you taking 2265 02:05:38.319 --> 02:05:38.600 the time. 2266 02:05:38.600 --> 02:05:39.359 I enjoyed it. 2267 02:05:39.479 --> 02:05:43.119 Yeah, and everyone else out there, we'll see you guys 2268 02:05:43.199 --> 02:05:43.640 next time. 2269 02:05:45.199 --> 02:05:45.479 Thank you. 2270 02:05:45.560 --> 02:05:51.600 Good. Hey, guys, I want to take a moment to 2271 02:05:51.680 --> 02:05:55.239 tell you about the Team House podcast newsletter. If you 2272 02:05:55.359 --> 02:05:58.439 go and subscribe, it's totally free and what it will 2273 02:05:58.520 --> 02:06:01.600 do is aggregate all of our data, all of our 2274 02:06:01.760 --> 02:06:04.760 content that we put out, the things that are on 2275 02:06:04.880 --> 02:06:09.960 the Teamhouse on our Geopolitics Podcast, Eyes on things that 2276 02:06:10.159 --> 02:06:13.239 I write journalistically with Sean Naylor on the high Side, 2277 02:06:14.199 --> 02:06:17.640 anything else that we have going on, books, we recommend 2278 02:06:18.600 --> 02:06:21.439 upcoming guests that we have coming on the show, and 2279 02:06:21.720 --> 02:06:24.199 also you know, filtering in some fun stuff in there 2280 02:06:24.239 --> 02:06:26.800 as well. If you go and check it out. We 2281 02:06:26.880 --> 02:06:28.680 send it out just once a week. We don't want 2282 02:06:28.720 --> 02:06:31.199 to spam you guys. It's just a kind of roll 2283 02:06:31.279 --> 02:06:33.960 up of all of our content on a weekly basis. 2284 02:06:34.520 --> 02:06:38.079 You can find our newsletter at Teamhouse podcast dot kit 2285 02:06:38.359 --> 02:06:42.439 dot com slash join again. The website for that is 2286 02:06:42.520 --> 02:06:46.880 Teamhouse Podcast dot kit dot com slash join So we 2287 02:06:46.960 --> 02:06:47.680 hope to see you there. 2288 02:06:48.399 --> 02:06:49.720 The link will be down the description