WEBVTT 1 00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:18.440 Coming to you from the dining room table at East 2 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:22.519 Barbary Lane. Welcome to a very special edition of Full 3 00:00:22.559 --> 00:00:27.600 Circle the podcast. I'm your host. Martha Madrigald, my guest today, 4 00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:31.120 is truly one of my heroes. I first discovered her 5 00:00:31.160 --> 00:00:36.079 watching Screaming Queens, the Riot at Compton's Cafeteria, for which 6 00:00:36.119 --> 00:00:38.439 she won an Emmy. She has had a long and 7 00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:43.119 distinguished academic career and she literally wrote the book on 8 00:00:43.240 --> 00:00:49.840 transgender history, Transgender History, The Roots of Today's Revolution. Please 9 00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:55.200 welcome doctor Susan Striker to the Full Circle Table. Hello Susan, 10 00:00:56.280 --> 00:00:56.799 how are you. 11 00:00:57.000 --> 00:01:02.719 Hello? Martha, I'm doing well since you're broadcasting from Barbary Lane, 12 00:01:02.759 --> 00:01:05.840 it's just like, what's your relationship to Anna? 13 00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:13.519 Well, you know, as I was transitioning and before that, Charles, 14 00:01:13.640 --> 00:01:17.920 my partner, said, you know, you're some wonderful combination of 15 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:24.519 Martha Stewart and Anna Madrigal. And we moved to the 16 00:01:24.599 --> 00:01:28.239 childhood home where I grew up, and there's a wooden 17 00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:31.599 staircase out back by the patio that kind of goes 18 00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:34.719 up to the second floor. We were sitting there watching folks, 19 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:36.079 you know, kind of go up and down at a 20 00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:39.079 barbecue and on the wooden staircase and he said, this 21 00:01:39.159 --> 00:01:41.200 really is the Barbary Lane and I said, well, it's 22 00:01:41.239 --> 00:01:45.239 like East Barbary Lane because we're in New Jersey. And Martha, 23 00:01:45.560 --> 00:01:48.400 Martha Madrigal was you know, it was the first name 24 00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:52.959 given to me, just completely in love and completely accepting 25 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:53.560 of who I. 26 00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:54.840 Was, so it stuck. 27 00:01:55.799 --> 00:01:59.439 So that's that's how it's connected. And we love Armistead 28 00:01:59.480 --> 00:02:01.920 mop and I'm I mean we did that. 29 00:02:02.760 --> 00:02:05.840 We both grew Yeah, such a great story. Yeah, yeah, 30 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:10.759 So being a San Franciscan, the Ani Madrigal character in 31 00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:14.039 the Tales of the City books are just near and 32 00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:17.479 dear to my heart. And I had a chance to 33 00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:22.960 ask Armistead once about the origin of that character, because 34 00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:25.759 there's somebody that I had come across in my research, 35 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:31.080 a trans woman named Louise Lawrence who lived in the 36 00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:36.199 Bay Area in the nineteen forties through eighties, I think 37 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:39.199 it was, And you know, she seemed very much like 38 00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:43.680 a real life an a Madrigal. She rented rooms to people, 39 00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:49.560 she helped connect a lot of trans women to medical 40 00:02:49.639 --> 00:02:53.199 service providers. People might be coming out on to the 41 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:57.199 West Coast to you know, get surgery or see a doctor, 42 00:02:57.240 --> 00:03:01.159 and she would put them up. I remember one story 43 00:03:01.159 --> 00:03:04.520 I read about her that when Christine Jorkinson was in 44 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:09.080 San Francisco, she happened to buy a car and Louise 45 00:03:09.159 --> 00:03:11.919 Lawrence drove the car back across the country to New 46 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:15.439 York for Christine. You know, she just seems to be 47 00:03:15.719 --> 00:03:21.039 a pretty fabulous character. She's the person who introduced Alfred 48 00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:23.599 Kinsey to a lot of the trans women who were 49 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:26.879 in his survey. So I asked armis that. I said, 50 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:29.639 could it be you know, by chance that you met 51 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:33.800 Louise Lawrence and was at the basis for Anna Madrigal 52 00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:41.240 And he said no, Actually it was somebody who I 53 00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:44.560 remember their former name. They were somebody who started out 54 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:50.199 as a female impersonator quote unquote named Kenneth Marlowe. And 55 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:53.240 I forget the name that she took after she transitioned, 56 00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:59.639 but Marlowe would tell stories about having been raised in 57 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:05.680 a wholehouse in Nevada. Armistead met her at a fundraiser 58 00:04:05.719 --> 00:04:09.199 when she was transitioning called putting on the tits. Wow, 59 00:04:10.360 --> 00:04:13.599 that and that he thought he thought that she was 60 00:04:14.199 --> 00:04:19.759 a fabulous raconteur, and that that was he said, that 61 00:04:19.879 --> 00:04:22.279 was the origin of some of the backstory. 62 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:26.040 I love that, yeah, because I haven't heard that, like 63 00:04:26.199 --> 00:04:31.439 who it was? That's interesting, and I have never heard 64 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:32.759 of Louise Lawrence. 65 00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:41.600 Well, there is actually a small nonprofit archive in San Francisco, 66 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:45.480 actually in a suburb of San Francisco, Valeo, run by 67 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:50.319 the fabulous Miss Botton Davis, who is a queen of 68 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:55.439 a certain age who made it their kind of retirement 69 00:04:55.839 --> 00:05:02.000 project to open their vast collection of trans historical materials 70 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:04.360 to the public. And they run something that they now 71 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:11.160 call the Louise Lawrence Memorial Archive. You go look it 72 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:14.120 up on the website. It's a physically sponsored project of 73 00:05:14.199 --> 00:05:19.480 the GLBT Historical Society in San Francisco. And they're fabulous, 74 00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:21.920 you know, And I think it's great that they took 75 00:05:21.959 --> 00:05:27.720 that name to honor an unsung San Francisco trans woman 76 00:05:27.800 --> 00:05:32.959 of some significance. You might have heard of Virginia Prince, 77 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:40.040 heard them who, right, Well, Virginia Prince. The first other 78 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:45.560 cross dresser she met was Louise Lawrence. Because Louise lived 79 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:49.879 in the Bay Area, she would do things like go 80 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:53.439 to University of California at San Francisco, which was the 81 00:05:53.600 --> 00:05:58.120 medical school, and would would do like these like brown 82 00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:05.199 bag lunches, educationating service providers about trans trans needs. You know, 83 00:06:05.319 --> 00:06:07.319 she'd be like, hello, I am a what she called 84 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:11.000 a transvestite or a permanent transvestite. I mean that she 85 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:15.519 never had surgery, never took hormones, but she lived full 86 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:21.480 time as a woman. And that that was who Virginia 87 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:28.079 Prince met. That Virginia Prince was at a PhD in pharmacology, 88 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:32.680 was doing a post doc at uc San Francisco, was 89 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:35.839 going to these little brown bag lunches and that's where 90 00:06:35.959 --> 00:06:39.079 she met the first person that she knew to be 91 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:44.759 trans and where she took her name. Virginia and Prince 92 00:06:44.839 --> 00:06:49.439 were from these streets near Louise Lawrence's house, Virginia Street 93 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:53.959 and Prince Street, and that that is where she you know, 94 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:59.519 that's how she became Virginia Prince. And the mailing list 95 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:06.720 for all of those old you know, transvestia newsletters that 96 00:07:06.759 --> 00:07:09.399 you know that all the all the organizations that Virginia 97 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:13.879 Prince wound up starting, the original mailing list came from 98 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:18.399 Louise Lawrence because she had built this network of people 99 00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:21.319 back in the forties and early fifties that she would 100 00:07:21.319 --> 00:07:24.959 read the newspapers. She would notice somebody who was arrested 101 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:27.959 for cross dressing, you know, you know, man caught, you know, 102 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:32.480 and ladies attire blah blah blah. Right, and back in 103 00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:35.759 the day, they would publish people's names and addresses in 104 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:40.399 the newspapers, and Louise Lawrence would write to them and say, like, 105 00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:43.920 you know, you know dear, you know John Doe, you 106 00:07:43.959 --> 00:07:46.920 know it saw your name of the paper tucks being you. 107 00:07:47.199 --> 00:07:49.720 But you're not alone and if you'd like to meet 108 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:55.040 other people who you know are similarly inclined. Yeah, And 109 00:07:55.079 --> 00:07:58.600 so that's where the first subscription lists for those early 110 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:03.399 transvestine you know, as they said in the day newsletters 111 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:03.959 came from. 112 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:07.399 It's you know, it's so much about the language because 113 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:11.600 we didn't have the words, you know, and and language 114 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:13.199 is still evolving very much. 115 00:08:14.680 --> 00:08:17.639 Very much. So yeah, so if as a historian, I'm 116 00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:21.439 using names or words that you know, people today like, 117 00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:24.639 that's not how always say things. It's like absolutely right, 118 00:08:24.759 --> 00:08:30.480 right And and also you know, to say when when 119 00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:34.039 Louise Lawrence would say things like I am a permanent transvestite, 120 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:37.360 it's like, well, the word transsexual had not been coined 121 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:41.840 or transgender was not in use, and so you know, 122 00:08:42.759 --> 00:08:44.159 as you said, language. 123 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:46.320 Evolved, right, And the person that comes to mind often 124 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:47.840 is Marcia P. Johnson. 125 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:52.679 Yeah. Well, you know, we used the word you mentioned 126 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:55.039 my film Screaming Queens. It's like we used the word 127 00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:59.039 queen rather deliberately because that was the word that people 128 00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:03.080 used about themselves. It's like in Queen, you know, some 129 00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:06.240 queens were women and some queens were men. You know, 130 00:09:06.279 --> 00:09:11.080 it's like it was a complicated category. You know, it 131 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:14.480 could be people who identified as trans women and hadn't 132 00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:19.639 had a chance to fully actualize themselves yet. Like maybe 133 00:09:19.720 --> 00:09:23.279 they were you know, working in the street based economies 134 00:09:23.320 --> 00:09:25.879 to try to like make their surgery and hormone money. 135 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:30.519 Maybe they were guys who just you know, tricked in 136 00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:34.639 women's clothing. You know, maybe they were people who never 137 00:09:34.840 --> 00:09:38.000 intended to transition and they were living exactly how they 138 00:09:38.039 --> 00:09:44.240 wanted to live as a transfeminine person. So you know, 139 00:09:44.600 --> 00:09:47.559 but the word queen was the word that described that 140 00:09:47.799 --> 00:09:52.600 entire group of people, usually who were involved in some 141 00:09:53.879 --> 00:09:58.279 street culture of some of some kind. So yeah, so 142 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:01.399 you know, now we say, you know, Mark and Sylvia, 143 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:03.879 you know, they were the you know, fore mothers of 144 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:06.639 our movement. It's like they used the word queen and 145 00:10:06.679 --> 00:10:11.720 they used the word transvestite about themselves start Street transvestite 146 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:13.120 Action Revolutionaries. 147 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:16.480 And Sylvia I think even more than Marcia from what 148 00:10:17.159 --> 00:10:19.759 from the way I understand it. You know, Marcia would 149 00:10:19.799 --> 00:10:23.799 sometimes present his male would sometimes be out there, you know, 150 00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:29.960 with her male name and sometimes was he and him. 151 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:33.200 Yeah, and and well Sylvia too. It's like she got 152 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:38.559 really disgruntled with gay community in New York by the 153 00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:42.559 early nineteen seventies and she moved off. She was upstate. 154 00:10:42.759 --> 00:10:47.759 She was using the name Ray again, was mostly working 155 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:51.600 as a man. I mean, was you know, never closeted 156 00:10:51.639 --> 00:10:57.039 about being gay and gender queer and certainly never hid 157 00:10:57.279 --> 00:11:00.679 her past. But you know, she lived for a long time, 158 00:11:00.919 --> 00:11:06.720 you know, again in a more male presenting way, and 159 00:11:06.759 --> 00:11:09.039 then later in life she was like, you know, no, 160 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:13.000 like this isn't right, and she you know, kind of 161 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:18.120 came back out as Sylvia once more. So both Marcia 162 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:22.360 and Sylvia went in an in and out of presenting 163 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:25.559 in a more trans transish kind of way. 164 00:11:26.279 --> 00:11:29.919 Right. It's interesting, and Sylvia did it felt like she 165 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:33.399 had her moment kind of in the sun towards the 166 00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:36.080 end of her life. 167 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:38.039 Exactly, you know, I was, yeah, and I was just 168 00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:42.879 really glad that she was someone was rediscovered by a 169 00:11:42.919 --> 00:11:45.000 younger generation of people. 170 00:11:45.159 --> 00:11:47.639 She had that time of being celebrated. Was it England 171 00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:51.360 or was it Italy where they brought her over for Pride? 172 00:11:51.480 --> 00:11:56.919 It was in Italy. Yeah, Yeah. I had a when 173 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:00.600 I went to do some some work with some of 174 00:12:00.679 --> 00:12:04.840 the trans folks in Bologna, Italy, which is an amazing place, 175 00:12:04.840 --> 00:12:08.840 an amazing community of people. There, they very proudly, you know, 176 00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:13.879 trotted out photos of of Sylvia and of Leslie Feinberg 177 00:12:14.360 --> 00:12:17.759 who had who they had brought to work with them. 178 00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:23.600 You know what. One of the things that I remember 179 00:12:23.639 --> 00:12:26.360 about Star, I mean remember in the sense of being 180 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:31.279 a historian who's studied, is like I found this pamphlet 181 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:34.799 or you know, flyer once where they were making their 182 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:37.679 demands for you know, what they wanted, and it, you know, 183 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:39.840 said something like, you know, in every city of a 184 00:12:39.879 --> 00:12:42.519 million people, there needs to be a clinic dedicated to 185 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:45.080 you know, trans people. It's like there needs to be 186 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:48.039 doctors on site, and there need to be job placement programs, 187 00:12:48.039 --> 00:12:50.159 and there needs to be you know this, that and 188 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:52.759 the other and there needs to be something that helps 189 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:55.840 people who've been incarcerated. It's like boom boom boom boom bum, 190 00:12:55.879 --> 00:13:00.679 like these this ten point program that they had, and 191 00:13:00.759 --> 00:13:04.000 that is exactly what they had in Bologna. It's like 192 00:13:04.120 --> 00:13:07.440 the city government because it used to be a they 193 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:10.000 called it red Bologna for a reason, and not just 194 00:13:10.039 --> 00:13:12.679 for the red tile roofs. It's like that it was 195 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:19.759 a stronghold of leftist politics, and the left leaning government 196 00:13:19.799 --> 00:13:23.919 of Bologna was like totally supportive of trans rights. They 197 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:27.639 gave the trans community a building. It's like they gave 198 00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:32.799 the gay community a building. But they also recognized that 199 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:36.799 trans issues overlapped but were different, and there was a 200 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:49.720 separate trans organization. It stood Formento Italiano Transcessuale initially and 201 00:13:49.720 --> 00:13:54.559 then they changed it to me like Movement of Italian 202 00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:58.320 Transgender People. They changed what the logo meant. But the 203 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:04.759 MIT building in Bologna, it was owned by this organization 204 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:08.919 that served trans people. They had like dropping medical clinics, 205 00:14:08.919 --> 00:14:11.840 they had job placements stuff. Everybody who worked there was 206 00:14:12.039 --> 00:14:15.440 formerly incarcerated and this was like a job for them, 207 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:18.960 you know, to get going. They had a hormone clinic, 208 00:14:19.159 --> 00:14:23.440 they had surgical referrals, they had counseling sessions, they had 209 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:26.840 social events, they ran a film festival, and it's like, 210 00:14:27.320 --> 00:14:31.440 you know, it was it was amazing and they were, 211 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:35.240 in a sense like doing exactly what Sylvia and Star 212 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:40.600 back in the day said should be done. And you know, 213 00:14:40.679 --> 00:14:43.159 they managed to do it well before we've ever managed 214 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:44.840 to do something like that in the You know. 215 00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:48.639 It's incredible to me what happens when we actually listened 216 00:14:48.679 --> 00:14:51.720 to the people involved, you know, and that that's across 217 00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:54.039 the board, but you know, it sounds like, wow, they 218 00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:59.000 actually listened to trans people about what our needs and 219 00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:01.360 you know, how we would serve our community and how 220 00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:07.559 we would best act. In watching all of the the 221 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:15.320 legislation encounter legislation around conversion therapy, the one place that 222 00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:19.919 really kind of gave me heart was New Zealand because 223 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:22.679 New Zealand is one of the very few places who 224 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:25.039 actually seem to get it right and said, this also 225 00:15:25.159 --> 00:15:28.840 has to apply to religion. You know, we can't exempt 226 00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:31.840 a religion because that's where most of this damage is happening. 227 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:35.440 And they got there by listening to the folks who 228 00:15:35.480 --> 00:15:39.279 were most impacted. And they've done that over with some 229 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:42.000 different legislation too, you know, in terms of sex work, 230 00:15:42.039 --> 00:15:45.080 in terms of actually listening to the people involved and saying, 231 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:48.360 you know, what would keep you saved? What do you 232 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:51.960 need from your government? Imagine that as a concept. 233 00:15:53.320 --> 00:15:58.679 Imagine that a government saying we're here for the people, right, 234 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:01.519 That's why government ex this, you know, It's like, what 235 00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:04.000 do the people need? How can life be better? 236 00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:07.600 That's what I thought. That's what you know. I hold 237 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:10.440 on to that. I hold on to that ideal. 238 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:11.440 You know. 239 00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:16.360 As I was reading there were some names in transgender history. 240 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:19.200 The first one that really struck me was read Ericson, 241 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:23.519 who is another person I had never known about until 242 00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:24.320 I read the book. 243 00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:32.320 He was. He was amazing. I mean just I first, 244 00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:35.519 I mean as a as a young trans thing. When 245 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:39.519 I was first starting to you know, sniff around and 246 00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:45.559 look for information back in the later probably not later seventies, 247 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:47.320 I hadn't found anything by that, but sort of the 248 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:53.279 early eighties I would come across these pamphlets that said, 249 00:16:53.320 --> 00:16:57.440 you know, the legal aspects of transsexualism, you know, put 250 00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:03.600 out by the the Ericson Educational Foundation. What is that? 251 00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:06.799 You know? And there was a whole series of self 252 00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:09.880 help pamphlets. It's like, you know, how to legally change 253 00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:16.559 your name. Now. Eric's an educational foundation. And by the 254 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:24.720 time I started, you know, being a serious historian of 255 00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:28.680 the you know, the trans movement of trans people's lives, 256 00:17:28.759 --> 00:17:32.519 mostly in North America, mostly in the parts of North 257 00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:36.640 America that are now the United States. It was at 258 00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:39.559 that time, in the early nineties, that I learned who 259 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:43.359 was this person behind the Ericson Educational Foundation. And his 260 00:17:43.519 --> 00:17:49.160 name was Read Ericson. He went by Eric, Eric Erickson, 261 00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:54.079 or just Ericson most of the time he was a 262 00:17:54.079 --> 00:18:02.440 trans man. He transitioned in nineteen six two. He was 263 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:10.240 fabulously wealthy. His his father was an electrical engineer, and 264 00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:16.759 that he had sent Ericson the son, you know, to 265 00:18:16.839 --> 00:18:19.640 kind of learn the family business. Ericson was the first 266 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:23.559 person assigned female at birth to get a master's degree 267 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:28.720 in engineering from Louisiana State University. And what they were 268 00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:33.839 doing in Louisiana, because the family was based mostly in Philadelphia, 269 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:41.079 was that they ran a business called Schoogl Industries that 270 00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:47.960 that took old car batteries, extracted the lead from them, 271 00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:51.799 and then sold the lead to the petroleum industry as 272 00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:54.519 a fuel additive. I mean, not exactly like a you know, 273 00:18:54.680 --> 00:19:00.720 green economy kind of guy. But maybe they didn't know 274 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:03.680 quite so much back in the nineteen forties and fifties, 275 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:10.200 but that the reason they were in Louisiana is that 276 00:19:09.880 --> 00:19:13.759 that's where the oil industry was that they were working with. 277 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:16.400 And then they eventually got into oil and gas lea saying, 278 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:20.279 and they became quite wealthy, I mean not only from 279 00:19:20.440 --> 00:19:23.680 the industry, but from all of the collateral stuff that 280 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:29.200 they were doing around it. And Erickson lived most of 281 00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:34.039 his younger life as a sort of a dashing butch lesbian. 282 00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:38.920 I've seen photos of him before his transition, and you know, 283 00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:44.559 it's like I think think about him as this socialite 284 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:49.799 butch moving in very you know, high powered circles in 285 00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:53.279 New York and like dating people who were like the 286 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:58.440 children of members of the Roosevelt administration and prominent banking families. 287 00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:00.559 I mean that he moved in these very very nice 288 00:20:01.079 --> 00:20:04.559 He was almost the gentleman Jack of the twentieth. 289 00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:08.759 Century, the gentleman Jack the twentieth century, or I think 290 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:11.839 of him kind of like kind of like you know, 291 00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:15.359 Tony Stark, iron man kind of guy. He was an inventor, 292 00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:19.000 he was wealthy, he thought outside the box about everything. Well, 293 00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:23.440 when his father died and he inherited the family business, 294 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:28.119 he was like, all right, actually I'm a guy, and 295 00:20:28.599 --> 00:20:33.000 he is the one who who funded all of the 296 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:35.119 doctors who were doing the research. 297 00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:39.519 It's like that was the part that it's got like, yeah, that, 298 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:43.160 I mean those early programs that were so important, like 299 00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:45.519 Johns Hopkins, like. 300 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:51.400 Horicans, UCLA, Stanford, you know, the University of Texas, Galveston. 301 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:56.759 So Ericson was the money bags behind the doctors who 302 00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:01.680 were doing the research. He's the person wholled Harry Benjamin's 303 00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:07.680 foundation that funded the publication of the Transsexual Phenomenon. I 304 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:14.759 mean he also funded the One Institute for Homophile Studies 305 00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:20.640 in Los Angeles, which was a gay advocacy organization founded 306 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:27.920 by this guy door leg which amassed this amazing librarian 307 00:21:28.119 --> 00:21:33.039 archive of queer historical materials that's now part of the 308 00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:39.200 Special Collections at University of Southern California. But that Erickson 309 00:21:39.319 --> 00:21:44.119 was just super influential in early homophile activism, in the 310 00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:48.799 provision of healthcare for trans people, for the development of 311 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:51.880 what we would now call the medical model. He kind 312 00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:56.200 of orchestrated that, you know, and I think of it 313 00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:58.799 as you know, there a lot of people who aren't 314 00:21:58.839 --> 00:22:02.119 crams can get their nickers in a twist about trans people, 315 00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:06.119 but most of them don't really care about like what 316 00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:08.640 can we do to make the life of trans people better? 317 00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:12.279 You know? And Ericson was the one going like, yeah, 318 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:14.519 there needs to be something happening here. How can I 319 00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:17.480 use my money to make that happen? And he he 320 00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:20.799 is the person who put all of that in place, 321 00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:25.599 as to put the medical model in place as a 322 00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:28.680 way of serving trans people, not of just sort of 323 00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:34.279 studying trans people as freaks somehow. So you know, thank 324 00:22:34.359 --> 00:22:39.200 you read Ericson for all of that. The thing that 325 00:22:39.559 --> 00:22:45.559 I am most fascinated about with him, though, is that, 326 00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:48.640 like I said, he was an engineer, but he was 327 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:56.119 also somebody who had serious interests in esoteric and occult religions. 328 00:22:56.200 --> 00:23:01.480 He had a lot of you know I called New 329 00:23:01.559 --> 00:23:08.640 Age beliefs, and so he he he had he said, 330 00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:11.119 you know, we can take kind of an engineering approach 331 00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:14.559 to transsexualism. You know, you can say, like you know what, 332 00:23:14.599 --> 00:23:17.680 it's like, it's not rocket science. It's like it's like 333 00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:21.400 shoot these drugs in your body. It's like, you know, cut, 334 00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:24.799 cut and staple here, you know, turn this inside out, 335 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:27.720 you know, move this tissue here to there. It's like 336 00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:31.440 it's just engineering, you know, it's a physical thing. And 337 00:23:31.480 --> 00:23:34.960 then it's like you sign here to change the legal 338 00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:37.400 you know, documents and what. It's just like it's just 339 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:41.240 a technical problem. It's not you know, it's not I 340 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:44.559 It's like nobody needs to lose their mind over right, right, 341 00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:47.000 and you can do that. So that's what he called like, 342 00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:51.160 you know, physical transsexualism. But then he said there's also 343 00:23:51.240 --> 00:23:56.400 something called spiritual transsexualism that for him was all about 344 00:23:56.400 --> 00:24:01.200 how you develop and elevate your conscious business and awareness. 345 00:24:01.240 --> 00:24:04.920 And he's like totally into psychedelic drugs and you know, 346 00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:07.559 and what you know he thought of was like East 347 00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:11.559 West fusion religion, and he funded people who were doing 348 00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:16.000 work and like ethno botanicals, Like how is it that 349 00:24:16.119 --> 00:24:18.640 you know, tribes in the highlands of Mexico. It's like, 350 00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:22.160 use you know, traditional plant medicines to do you know, 351 00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:26.000 they're you know, sacred practices. I mean, he was totally 352 00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:29.599 into all of that back in the sixties. Yeah, in 353 00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:37.880 the sixties, mostly uh, and for me like that that 354 00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:43.880 is well, I will just say like, as somebody who 355 00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:47.279 has gone through a medical transition, I totally appreciate what 356 00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:52.039 has been available to me. But I also just really 357 00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:54.960 get a kick out of how the same person who 358 00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:59.559 who helped orchestrate all of that also saw a completely 359 00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:02.839 different w way of being trans. And you know, for me, 360 00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:04.880 it's just saying like, you know, there is no one 361 00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:08.759 way to be a trans person, and you know it 362 00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:11.799 should be a big tent kind of concept I think 363 00:25:12.039 --> 00:25:15.880 within the community. You know, we should not be quite 364 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:21.920 as turf marking and boundary policing as we can be 365 00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:25.119 about you know, who's a real what and which thing 366 00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:27.960 is preferable to which other thing and just say, you know, 367 00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:30.839 it's like Ben Ben Franklin would say, if we don't 368 00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:33.559 all hang together, we're all going to hang separately. 369 00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:35.880 Well right, And I couldn't agree with that more, you know, 370 00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:38.720 And that's it's I feel like I'm beating a drunk 371 00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:41.720 with that, you know, on every platform that I have, 372 00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:43.359 which is you know, there's not a right or way 373 00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:46.319 wrong to be to being trans. This is you know, 374 00:25:46.359 --> 00:25:49.440 an inside job your trans because you say you're trans 375 00:25:49.480 --> 00:25:52.799 because we throughout history, you know, we've had more folks 376 00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:56.319 who didn't or couldn't transition or there was no such thing. 377 00:25:57.240 --> 00:25:59.920 Then we've had the folks who've had access, you know, 378 00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:03.559 And then to say that that that there's now some 379 00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:09.319 hierarchy doesn't make a lot of sense. I have Elizabeth Coffee. 380 00:26:09.319 --> 00:26:13.720 Williams is a very good friend of mine. And Elizabeth 381 00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:18.480 had her confirmation surgery I want to say in nineteen 382 00:26:18.519 --> 00:26:25.720 seventy two in Baltimore, seventy two or seventy three, and 383 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:30.920 you know, she was from Philadelphia. She you know, came 384 00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:34.319 out to her parents, I think the day she graduated 385 00:26:34.440 --> 00:26:39.599 high school and they put her outside and she found 386 00:26:39.640 --> 00:26:43.960 out about the gender clinic at Johns Hopkins. Then moved 387 00:26:43.960 --> 00:26:48.440 to Baltimore where she met John Waters and the Dreamlanders, 388 00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:51.119 and she wound up in four of his films. In fact, 389 00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:57.240 it's Elizabeth and Pink Flamingos who is the transflasher. That's Elizabeth, 390 00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:00.680 and she was in yeah, I think total of four 391 00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:03.799 of his films. But you know, she tells the story 392 00:27:03.799 --> 00:27:08.079 of when she went to Johns Hopkins, they didn't want 393 00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:12.920 to help her because she didn't fit their model of 394 00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:16.359 what it was to be trans and you know, she 395 00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:21.799 was already living as herself, and you know she was 396 00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:26.839 in little short shorts and tank tops or pulter tops 397 00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:32.440 or whatever. And you know, one of the things that 398 00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:34.640 you agreed to you weren't allowed to meet any of 399 00:27:34.680 --> 00:27:38.880 the other trans folk being served in the clinic. They 400 00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:42.160 weren't allowed to know one another. And there was this 401 00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:45.599