Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to episode one eleven of the POTTYC. That's right,
Speaker 1: this week Fronc has to do the least finger movement
Speaker 1: in a while to create the episode title, so big
Speaker 1: congratulations to him. This week we have We've just had
Speaker 1: rain testing for Venomous Abyss, which actually the first time
Speaker 1: in like three patches that I've actually been able to
Speaker 1: make it to raid testing because the last two have
Speaker 1: been super unfortunate times, so I actually have more more
Speaker 1: grounding than usual in what the fights look like. But
Speaker 1: before then, we have an add on Drama News sad news.
Speaker 1: Like I say drama, but it's like it's you know, sad,
Speaker 1: which is unholted raidframes. I don't know if either of
Speaker 1: you guys were unhlted raid frames Enjoyers have halted development
Speaker 1: due to abuse and harassment. Here's the wowhead post on
Speaker 1: that you've seen this your user?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was a user until Ellesmere. What happened? This
Speaker 2: was the goal to during that on Verge.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's one of like several add ons that popped
Speaker 1: up in the past year and then popped down soon after.
Speaker 1: I remember there was like a nephew I was another
Speaker 1: one of these, right, whereas like the add on purge
Speaker 1: is happening, some new people kind of throw their hats
Speaker 1: into the add on dev ring and then people they
Speaker 1: kind of got a taste of, like how uh toxic
Speaker 1: the you know discourse in the community can be around it? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then they're out of there. So in this case
Speaker 1: it was unholted rade frames. They pushed a large update
Speaker 1: that added party in raid frames, indicated from ready checks
Speaker 1: and threat and more requested features. Unfortunately, this update also
Speaker 1: caused several unintended problems breaking core out On functionality, resulting
Speaker 1: in a daly uge of irate comments from its user
Speaker 1: base on the project page, discords, dms, and other social spheres.
Speaker 1: Several hours later, the creator announced over discord the add
Speaker 1: on would cease development entirely in direct response to the
Speaker 1: hatred and abuse received throughout the day. The author further
Speaker 1: reminded users that out On Dev's work on projects of
Speaker 1: passion and no one should be subjected to abuse or
Speaker 1: harassment for creating add ons, posing with a final request
Speaker 1: to be kinder to one another, I think a very
Speaker 1: understandable yep, you know the response to yeah, it's like
Speaker 1: it's on the one head, you know, obviously everybody's good.
Speaker 1: People are going to be mad when you but something breaks,
Speaker 1: you know, functionality that they're used to. We can see
Speaker 1: that with a wow patch. But on the other hand,
Speaker 1: add On does in particular are basically just doing this
Speaker 1: for free or for you know, pennies, And.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember this happened. Something similar happened to this
Speaker 3: in a class discord actually, where like I think there
Speaker 3: was like an issue with the shadow pre sim or
Speaker 3: something like many uses in Shadowlands, where like basically this
Speaker 3: person had it wrong and people had picked a covenant
Speaker 3: and then the covenant ended up changing, and then I
Speaker 3: just remember there was a barrage of like fuck you,
Speaker 3: Like obviously these people are doing it as a as
Speaker 3: like a passion thing, and like obviously it can affect
Speaker 3: people in a negative way, but like they're not getting
Speaker 3: paid for it, and they get like a ton of
Speaker 3: hate when stuff doesn't work. Obviously it's usually directed at
Speaker 3: Blizzard if it's like, oh, they released a buggy patch
Speaker 3: or whatever and that made this stuff not work, but like, oh,
Speaker 3: it's actually on the out on developer, and I have
Speaker 3: heard some sentiment as to like, oh, that guy just
Speaker 3: couldn't take the heat. It's like well maybe, but also
Speaker 3: if someone's just doing something in their spare time because
Speaker 3: they want to for fun, just like a little side project,
Speaker 3: and that also comes with the side effect of people
Speaker 3: fucking yelling at you, which sucks, you might be like, well,
Speaker 3: you know what, it actually turns out it's not worth
Speaker 3: it for me to do this, So it's like totally valid.
Speaker 3: It like makes complete sense to me why they would
Speaker 3: do that. And yeah, maybe think before you start slandering people.
Speaker 2: Some people are just not built for as shit. It's
Speaker 2: just like the quasi ui situation. He was literally there
Speaker 2: for a moment and suddenly he's gone.
Speaker 3: You know, it's not some people. I want to say,
Speaker 3: most people I'm just gonna throw I don't think. I
Speaker 3: don't think. I don't think there's most people that are
Speaker 3: like able to handle. And I don't even know how
Speaker 3: many times in people's lives anyone even on average, like
Speaker 3: even deals with thousands of people being mad at them
Speaker 3: on the internet. But like, I don't know how many
Speaker 3: people are actually built to handle that. It's like really hard.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 3: I think streamers sometimes go through that, it's like a
Speaker 3: more common thing. But land like certainly the game developers,
Speaker 3: right but I don't think it's like it's like, oh,
Speaker 3: like you should be built for this, and you're fucked
Speaker 3: up if you're not. Like, I don't think like anyone's
Speaker 3: built for that. Honestly, it's like something that people will
Speaker 3: end up like learning to live with. I guess if
Speaker 3: it ends up being in the career path you're doing.
Speaker 3: But like if it's not even your career path, it's
Speaker 3: just like a little side thing, like why the fuck
Speaker 3: would you ever subject yourself to that? It totally makes
Speaker 3: sense for him to back out, well a.
Speaker 2: Bit of a tangent, but Titles made a new video
Speaker 2: talking about how he thinks about it, Like you was
Speaker 2: just like an opinion piece about how he feels about
Speaker 2: loot nowadays in the world of warl craft. People were
Speaker 2: fucking shitting on him. They were absolutely relentless people. He
Speaker 2: was just like, this is just an opinion. Uh. He
Speaker 2: basically said, like how loot and gearing in world war
Speaker 2: craft is just like unfulfilling and it just like feels
Speaker 2: bad right now and there needs to be like a
Speaker 2: better solution is I want to understand it. Heal with you.
Speaker 2: I mean, to be fair, I didn't like actively listen
Speaker 2: to his video. I kind of just like had to
Speaker 2: play in the mark ground and.
Speaker 1: Very few people can do that, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wonder if he actually had a bad take,
Speaker 3: because Tottles has this thing where like I don't even
Speaker 3: really know when this started, Like there's certainly some moon
Speaker 3: can hate, and I'm sure he's had some some stinker
Speaker 3: takes over the years. Who who amongst us hasn't right, uh,
Speaker 3: but he has this thing about him where like he
Speaker 3: starts speaking and people are just like, oh this guy again, I.
Speaker 2: Don't really know where that's just giving his opinion too,
Speaker 2: like you know, he's not saying like this is a bible,
Speaker 2: like this is how it should be.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well sometimes people people have been getting up in
Speaker 3: arms about that kind of shit for years though, where
Speaker 3: where they'll be like, yeah, well you you have the
Speaker 3: comeback of like well I'm just they're getting mad at you,
Speaker 3: and you're like, well, I'm just a streamer. I'm just
Speaker 3: like I'm just saying my opinion, like and then like,
Speaker 3: well people listen to you, so you can't have fucking
Speaker 3: bad opinions. Blizzard makes the game off of what.
Speaker 2: You're like a politician.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's tough because, like I love making
Speaker 1: fun of tittles. Over the years, there have been so
Speaker 1: many stupid things he said, and it sucks because I
Speaker 1: can't say like half of the mean things I want
Speaker 1: to say about him because everybody else is like means
Speaker 1: it when they say it sometimes, So now I don't
Speaker 1: get to I don't get to roast him as much
Speaker 1: as I'd like to. So it's really tough out there.
Speaker 1: I wish people would stop being mean, like stop hogging
Speaker 1: all of the being means tittles so that I can
Speaker 1: do more of it. Please. It's a really unfair that's valid, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it is, like I think it's something that almost everybody
Speaker 1: would be surprised by. We've talked about this before in
Speaker 1: the context of content creation there whereas like if a
Speaker 1: couple of people are like actively being nasty towards you,
Speaker 1: it's like, it doesn't you don't if you're just watching
Speaker 1: that dynamic from the outside, it doesn't, it will you
Speaker 1: will not understand like the psychic damage that does to
Speaker 1: almost everybody upon like being on the receiving end of that.
Speaker 1: There's like, no, it's it's just as an unreasonable you know,
Speaker 1: percent more multiplier, more than you would expect for how
Speaker 1: much that like lives rent free in your head. For
Speaker 1: most people, some people are able to you know, get
Speaker 1: past it. Other people are just like randomly immune to
Speaker 1: it or inured to it already. But for the most part,
Speaker 1: like if you just took an average human off the
Speaker 1: street and then had them read like ten mean comments
Speaker 1: about them, that would ruin their week, month, year potential,
Speaker 1: Like it's it is a tough situation to be put into,
Speaker 1: and it's one that if you're not ever on the
Speaker 1: other side of it, you just won't appreciate because you
Speaker 1: you know, if you're just doing a regular job, like
Speaker 1: you will not be put in that position pretty much. Ever,
Speaker 1: So I have a lot of a lot of empathy
Speaker 1: for out on developers that find themselves whenever you find
Speaker 1: this yourself is like the main character of an add
Speaker 1: on you know, situation for the day or something like that,
Speaker 1: Like you're gonna attract just an amount of you know, criticism,
Speaker 1: and even if it's like ninety percent fair criticism being
Speaker 1: posted without malice, the ten percent that is like over
Speaker 1: the line kind of infects the rest of it.
Speaker 3: And yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, So let's let's make a
Speaker 3: verdict on ourselves. Let's let what does anyone know what
Speaker 3: he actually argued? Like maybe we could even hear like
Speaker 3: a like a snippet of it or the Tedtle's got
Speaker 3: no I'm trying to basically see, like like let's make
Speaker 3: a educated like is him getting backlash for this warranted?
Speaker 3: Because like, you know, it's also possible Tedtles said some
Speaker 3: really fucking dumb and people are mad, you know, but
Speaker 3: like it's it's also possible that people are mad for
Speaker 3: no reason and he did nothing wrong. But if no
Speaker 3: one listened to it, then what can we do?
Speaker 2: I who listened to it?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it'd be crazy.
Speaker 3: I wonder how many people that are mad at him
Speaker 3: also didn't listen to it and they just saw other
Speaker 3: people mad at him and they were like, here we
Speaker 3: fucking go again. Fuck him, he's wrong.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Or you just listen to the first thirty seconds
Speaker 1: and then you know, base you extrapolate what the next
Speaker 1: probably yeah, based on that, Or you just rock summarized
Speaker 1: this video for me and write a witty roast of it.
Speaker 2: There are occasionally moments where people have no idea what
Speaker 2: the video is actually saying, and they'll just be like
Speaker 2: very upset because of that. But yeah, I mean I
Speaker 2: can't really say what happened exactly in that video because
Speaker 2: I don't even know myself, and it was one of
Speaker 2: the comments was like I've never disked the vide year before,
Speaker 2: but I had to here.
Speaker 1: Okay, that sounds like, yeah, I don't know that, like
Speaker 1: in the context of a delusion negative comments that one
Speaker 1: you know is another one of them, but also like
Speaker 1: by itself, it's kind of a you know, just the
Speaker 1: person expressing a take seems fair.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I saw this fear.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I looked at the comments there.
Speaker 1: It looked like there weren't I suspect he's been, you know,
Speaker 1: pruning the worst of them, which is good take. By
Speaker 1: the way, people, if you ever get mad at somebody
Speaker 1: for like censoring the comments on their video when they're
Speaker 1: just taking out the you know, the meanest ones it is,
Speaker 1: you got to do that. Otherwise the ratio just gets
Speaker 1: worse and worse, and like nobody reasonable stays in your
Speaker 1: comment section. So yeah, that's not like fleeing from it
Speaker 1: or anything.
Speaker 2: Dude. So going back to the I don't on discussion,
Speaker 2: there is one thing that really annoys me about something
Speaker 2: that I don't developers do. It's when they push a
Speaker 2: feature that you want to be optional. I know a
Speaker 2: couple of ad On developers that have done this, one
Speaker 2: of them being big wigs, like Bro, they added the
Speaker 2: thing where they have nameplates on the mobs, you know,
Speaker 2: the name play cool downs. This was like back in
Speaker 2: Dragonflame maybe or maybe shadow Lands, and it's like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean that's a great feature, right, Like it's nice
Speaker 2: to have nameplates on mobs, Like you want to be
Speaker 2: able to see the cool downs on the on the
Speaker 2: abilities from the mobs. But when I already had Marror's's
Speaker 2: nameplate week or at a time and I couldn't disable
Speaker 2: the big wigs option, it was like, actually so annoying.
Speaker 2: It's like, Bro, I'm trying to use your add on
Speaker 2: and you're just trying to like force this down my throat,
Speaker 2: Like please.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually think there's a I could like correlate
Speaker 3: this to how we deal with players sometimes. So we
Speaker 3: when we're coming up with like new tech during the race,
Speaker 3: we used to always push it with everything on, with
Speaker 3: the idea that hey, if the players don't want it,
Speaker 3: they can just disable it right now. Players a lot
Speaker 3: of times didn't like this because like there are one
Speaker 3: hundred pulls into a hard boss, two hundred pulls, they
Speaker 3: reload next pull, and now there's this thing that is
Speaker 3: in the middle of their screen and they're like, what
Speaker 3: the fuck, Like, what's going on here? Right? So now
Speaker 3: we have swapped it back to where we do not
Speaker 3: give them stuff right away and they have to manually
Speaker 3: enable everything. What happens there is people actually end up
Speaker 3: not using a lot of tech that's very very good
Speaker 3: and they would use if they enabled it or if
Speaker 3: they had it given to them, but they didn't because
Speaker 3: like of the process of having to choose to manually
Speaker 3: turn something on. So if I'm going to fight, I
Speaker 3: also agree with you that has also made me mad
Speaker 3: in the past. But if I'm going to fight the
Speaker 3: battle for uh the ad on developers and also the
Speaker 3: end of that story is now what we do is
Speaker 3: we have to make judgment calls as officers as to
Speaker 3: like we try to know what is the stuff we
Speaker 3: have that's actually really fucking good, and we do make
Speaker 3: those on by default. So it's not like all or
Speaker 3: nothing in either direction. It is like manually some of
Speaker 3: these things are we think are really important, and we're
Speaker 3: forcing you to have them, and they're going to be
Speaker 3: default on and some of them are optional based on
Speaker 3: role and stuff like that. Okay, if you're an ad
Speaker 3: On developer and you come up with a really cool
Speaker 3: feature and you make it not on by default, I
Speaker 3: bet if they look at the number. I don't know
Speaker 3: if they have numbers on this stuff, but like, I'm
Speaker 3: gonna guess that even if it's an amazing feature that
Speaker 3: makes your ad On better, that's going to keep people
Speaker 3: downloading it if you don't enable it automatically. Like I'm
Speaker 3: just going to make up a number like ninety five
Speaker 3: percent of people are never going to actually do the
Speaker 3: research to know that that is now available and will
Speaker 3: never even try it. So they would rather kind of
Speaker 3: using the example with our raiders, they would rather put
Speaker 3: it in your face and say hey, I don't want it,
Speaker 3: and disable it and at least let you know that
Speaker 3: it's there. Then like just basically put it as an
Speaker 3: option where they know that no one's going to click
Speaker 3: on it, and they spend time on it and want
Speaker 3: people to use it.
Speaker 2: I think no, I'll think you're understand what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: So it wasn't a one of those like, oh, you know,
Speaker 2: here's a cool future of that we're gonna enable by default.
Speaker 2: It was one of those you're not allowed to turn
Speaker 2: off our feature, Like they added the name play thing
Speaker 2: and you were not allowed to turn it off. There
Speaker 2: was like no option to turn off whatsoever. If you
Speaker 2: want to turn it off, you have to not use
Speaker 2: that ad on, Like it's either you take it or
Speaker 2: you leave it. And yeah, if you're a bunch of
Speaker 2: people who complain about it on the big wigs discord
Speaker 2: and the guy got so butt heard that he ended
Speaker 2: up banning a bunch of people saying how like, look,
Speaker 2: you have to use it. If you don't use it,
Speaker 2: then don't use my had on how about that, which
Speaker 2: was like that's kind of cringe behavior, like I'm not
Speaker 2: gonna lie, especially from such a big ADAM developer, where
Speaker 2: it's like you want to use the very add on
Speaker 2: because you've been using it for so many years.
Speaker 1: I think the the perspective is like, you know, it's
Speaker 1: a mistake, and then it's like you get backed into
Speaker 1: a corner where and now like four hundred annoying people
Speaker 1: are dming you about it, and you know obviously you
Speaker 1: shouldn't get defensive, but you know, you should just realize that,
Speaker 1: you know, you should just make it optional, right. But
Speaker 1: like at that point, it's you're reacting emotionally.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and exactly you're you, maybe for the first time ever,
Speaker 3: are reacting to a large crowd of people being mad
Speaker 3: at you, and it's ramping, you know, and people are
Speaker 3: just gonna have different reactions to that. Sometimes people are
Speaker 3: gonna have their wires get crossed and they're gonna fucking
Speaker 3: fight back, you know. And I don't know is many
Speaker 3: people that are gonna shoot on them for that. I
Speaker 3: don't know how many of you would not do the same, maybe,
Speaker 3: you know, because it's just hard to put yourself in
Speaker 3: that position of just like you open up discord, which
Speaker 3: is normally for you like a cool place to talk
Speaker 3: to other people that enjoy your add on and maybe
Speaker 3: give some feedback, and you open it and they're like,
Speaker 3: you suck, fuck you, why did you do this? And
Speaker 3: that's it's just hard. Man.
Speaker 1: You could even see like relatively normal people becoming class
Speaker 1: Discord moderators and then see how they react to not
Speaker 1: even something negative, but literally just to the same question
Speaker 1: being asked five times in a day. It's like, is
Speaker 1: there something you know wrong with people that would choose
Speaker 1: to become a class discord admin. Maybe, but the percentage
Speaker 1: of them that become like just unhingedly you know, infuriated
Speaker 1: by people asking the same question over and over again
Speaker 1: should go to show that, like, it's actually a surprisingly
Speaker 1: annoying thing that you wouldn't guess if you hadn't been
Speaker 1: on the other end of it. And that's not even
Speaker 1: like negative right when you change that to like people
Speaker 1: being negative about your add on change that you clearly
Speaker 1: think is a good idea, good enough that you don't
Speaker 1: even consider that not everybody might not want it turned
Speaker 1: on right. And also you've you know, you've just like
Speaker 1: updated it right, and yeah, I don't know. I Again,
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to say it's not a mistake. I'm
Speaker 1: just trying to say it's a as one of those
Speaker 1: things where the reaction that people will have to, especially
Speaker 1: again when they're like basically volunteers working on these add ons,
Speaker 1: is is it's going to look surprising from the outside.
Speaker 1: And it's not surprising to me that people, uh people
Speaker 1: get as you know, upset as they do about it. Obviously,
Speaker 1: they shouldn't if they can, but yeah, I try and
Speaker 1: extend them a little bit of a benefit of the
Speaker 1: doubt when possible. But yeah, I've also I have seen
Speaker 1: that other thing actually you were talking about, where it's
Speaker 1: like if you push a feature and you don't actually
Speaker 1: like like you can push a feature, you can put
Speaker 1: it in the notes of that you can like make
Speaker 1: a shiny little pop up when you first log in
Speaker 1: that's like, hey, my add on now has this new functionality.
Speaker 1: And I have seen I don't remember exactly what it was,
Speaker 1: but I remember a couple of weeks ago I saw
Speaker 1: somebody like rudely asking on Twitter for a feature on
Speaker 1: an add on that had been added to that add
Speaker 1: on like a year ago by that exact process, and
Speaker 1: that user just had ignored and myss that it had
Speaker 1: been added to the add on. So it is definitely
Speaker 1: something where.
Speaker 3: Oh I think it's a very I mean, like I said,
Speaker 3: we have a doubt. We have like straight up dell
Speaker 3: with that. Like it is literally these people's jobs to
Speaker 3: kill raid Boss as fast as possible, which means using
Speaker 3: all the tech that is possibly available to them that
Speaker 3: we have people hired to make for them, right and
Speaker 3: like it's their job to make sure that they have
Speaker 3: this shit, So it's above like a casual gaming, it's
Speaker 3: like their job and a large amount of those things.
Speaker 3: If we did not make them on by default, they
Speaker 3: wouldn't use right, So it's it's I would rather deal
Speaker 3: with them get mad for one pole because some things
Speaker 3: on their screen and go away than them like having
Speaker 3: done an entire progression where they would have played better
Speaker 3: had they known something was there.
Speaker 2: I've learned as a streamer is that people don't fucking
Speaker 2: read like. You can have millions of commands, you can
Speaker 2: have you know, all these things on your titles and
Speaker 2: shot all over your screen, and people will just ask
Speaker 2: the same ship like, hey, what are your talents? Hey,
Speaker 2: where's the tearless? What is meta? You know? What's that
Speaker 2: add on there using even though it literally says the
Speaker 2: right fear of that, like the add on is called
Speaker 2: tru c g GCD or whatever the fuck it might be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember when the corruption Vendor reset on like
Speaker 1: every twice a week or whatever there was. I had
Speaker 1: to a stream where people asked it so often every
Speaker 1: they asked that I made it bigger the timer on
Speaker 1: my screen by the end it was like half the
Speaker 1: screen before uh the stream is over. It's yeah, the
Speaker 1: very people people do not there. They would rather just
Speaker 1: ask than try, and like you know, than any anything else, right,
Speaker 1: than than think about it at all. Which, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: just that's that's something you gotta you know, you gotta
Speaker 1: play around if you're a streamer. But ad On devs
Speaker 1: usually don't have to play around it. It's just when
Speaker 1: they push a controversial update that they then get a
Speaker 1: taste to that.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, me really sucks for the guy though
Speaker 2: m hm.
Speaker 1: Again, I totally understand that. It's like it's you know,
Speaker 1: it sucks that a cool add on has gone off
Speaker 1: of the market basically, but I definitely understand why they
Speaker 1: took it off.
Speaker 3: So yeah, like I said, yeah, about to say els
Speaker 3: me or I continues to climb the of of did
Speaker 3: I saw a picture in my guild discord today of
Speaker 3: someone having purchased or showed a picture of like their
Speaker 3: Ella's Mirror merch on their bed like a T shirt.
Speaker 3: Like they're just so fucking Ella's mire pilled that they
Speaker 3: just straight up buying merch.
Speaker 1: They're Yeah, it's a I mean a good call. It
Speaker 1: like an all in one Adam that just kind of
Speaker 1: does all of the everything. Well, that's uh, that's what
Speaker 1: people have been kind of yearning for ever since week
Speaker 1: or is stop the updating so awesome?
Speaker 2: I mean, it's really impressive when people like THHD and
Speaker 2: JB are using Ellesmere UI, Like these guys are hardheaded
Speaker 2: as hell. They will literally never change your habits.
Speaker 3: Yep, THHD changing his UI is absolutely insane, Like I
Speaker 3: cannot believe that that happened.
Speaker 1: Are all right? Speaking of THD, I have some DMS
Speaker 1: for THD. Recently, when I was doing normal raid testing,
Speaker 1: he was laughing because we'd started pulling the trash. The
Speaker 1: trash this upcoming raid is, what on earth were they?
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys have done normal testing
Speaker 1: or like maxively watch the normal testing beyond the bosses,
Speaker 1: but they have made some of the most diabolical trash
Speaker 1: gauntlets that I've ever seen in a raid. And there's
Speaker 1: like three separate sections with differently evil trash coming up.
Speaker 1: So if that doesn't change by the time this goes live,
Speaker 1: I think that's going to be probably the biggest thing
Speaker 1: that most people remember from this raid will be how
Speaker 1: awful the trash is I'm not exacter it is so bad.
Speaker 1: The trash gauntlets that you get into, Yeah, yeah, it's nasty.
Speaker 1: The bosses are pretty cool, though a couple of them
Speaker 1: were like bad, but they've retested those and they work now,
Speaker 1: so that's good. Yeah.
Speaker 3: A couple of them were very, very sloppy, like the
Speaker 3: first testing of Vashnik, which is I think the closest
Speaker 3: way to understand this raid layout is uh Avarice, So
Speaker 3: like there's like a first boss and then there's like
Speaker 3: two little two boss wings and then it like goes
Speaker 3: linear after that. I think that's like the easiest way
Speaker 3: to understand the the pacing of the current raider, like
Speaker 3: what they're trying to do with that, And like Vashnik
Speaker 3: is the end of one of the wings, So I
Speaker 3: guess you could relate it to like where u RAS
Speaker 3: Shock or Forgotten Experiments was, for example, if you're trying
Speaker 3: to like put a difficulty in your head, but it's like, dude,
Speaker 3: the did you even see like a vod of the
Speaker 3: previous testing where like there was just like a million
Speaker 3: Oh you did you did the Like there's a million
Speaker 3: and you have to kill them after you break them out,
Speaker 3: and like Yeah, it was a total disaster. Like it
Speaker 3: was just our raiders were just going like slop, this
Speaker 3: is slop slop boss. Like it was definitely not received
Speaker 3: well at all, and then it, uh, these bosses were
Speaker 3: way better. Same thing with the for the tortollin boss,
Speaker 3: the uh uh what's it called something?
Speaker 1: Explorer?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Lost Explorers is way way better. That was pretty
Speaker 3: tough too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that one was. That one's pretty cool. It's like
Speaker 1: a it's kind of a council boss, but you can
Speaker 1: only stack up two of the three at a time,
Speaker 1: and you like get to choose which of the three
Speaker 1: does their alts at a time as well. Unfortunately, two
Speaker 1: of the three alts didn't work on their first testing
Speaker 1: and just were impossible to do, so that was obviously
Speaker 1: not great. But then the second testing they figure that out,
Speaker 1: so you know, kudos to them for making that boss worse.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a it's a fine council boss. And it's
Speaker 3: not in a part of the raid that it's it's
Speaker 3: it's in the uh I believe it is in the
Speaker 3: Zachali assault spot, right. Yeah, it's like you go left
Speaker 3: and it's it's it's there either that or in tomb
Speaker 3: Sentinels is your second boss exactly, yeah, which is very
Speaker 3: similar to like Amalgamation Chamber if any actually speaking of
Speaker 3: avarice like literally like almost like Bar for Bar the
Speaker 3: same boss, uh there, and then yeah, and then and
Speaker 3: then Scissorak after Lost Explorers is like I think definitely
Speaker 3: ras Shock tier and like similar like single target boss
Speaker 3: with some dodging and stuff and a little damage jamp.
Speaker 3: That's very cool, yeah, although.
Speaker 1: It is one of those obnoxious damage jamps that is
Speaker 1: a at a kind of weird timing and b you're getting
Speaker 1: knocked back while it's going on, So if you're not
Speaker 1: like a dk DEA's advancing, you're gonna have a hard
Speaker 1: time getting value out of that, out of that damage jamp.
Speaker 1: And it's it's actually it reminds me exactly of salad
Speaker 1: r too, because it's such a small damage jamp. It's
Speaker 1: like thirty percent, so it's like big enough that you
Speaker 1: have to care about it, but not big enough that
Speaker 1: it's you know, a big a huge deal, right, It's
Speaker 1: like that exact number where it is just in my opinion,
Speaker 1: it's just like annoying because there's also the movement going on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the damage the damage timings for damage aamps
Speaker 3: are weird. The movement isn't that big of a deal
Speaker 3: because you can, you know, you have the ability to
Speaker 3: manipulate that. Also, they did make some changes to the
Speaker 3: boss that like do you move less when you have
Speaker 3: the pop debuff, but also like punished you in more
Speaker 3: ways if you handle it properly. So I think they're
Speaker 3: they're kind of cooking with that. Did you spend any
Speaker 3: time on the second to last.
Speaker 1: Boss, Yeah, not this retesting of it, but the we
Speaker 1: got through phase one in the first testing.
Speaker 3: And I'm assuming instantly got clapped in P two P
Speaker 3: twos like.
Speaker 1: We have like a minute into P two on one
Speaker 1: of our polls or something. So it was not enough,
Speaker 1: like enough for me to have a theory about how
Speaker 1: you could do the mechanics, but not enough for us
Speaker 1: to get any whork close decks getting them, you know. So, dude,
Speaker 1: it's such a cool boss. Basically in P one, you're
Speaker 1: kind of collecting these green orbs and stacking them up
Speaker 1: to get hit by the boss frontal and on mythic
Speaker 1: there's also some that you have to make sure you
Speaker 1: don't get too close to the other orbs and you're
Speaker 1: also doing some other you know, mechanics. Of course, on
Speaker 1: top of that really fun phase, you get this exciting
Speaker 1: combination of like the tank positioning and also other players
Speaker 1: moving these orbs and the oft time moving the Mythic
Speaker 1: orbs because they do a lot of image. And then
Speaker 1: P two. So P two on Mythic you have people
Speaker 1: that are like trying to jump off the edge Jailer's style, right.
Speaker 1: You got to stop them from jumping off the edge.
Speaker 1: When you stop them, they spawn two ghosts that fixate players.
Speaker 1: They will walk towards that player unless the player looks
Speaker 1: at them, so you can like freeze them in place
Speaker 1: by looking at them. But only the person who is
Speaker 1: being fixated on Mythic can actually see their ghost, so
Speaker 1: nobody else can see your ghost. And you need to
Speaker 1: get them all hit by a tank frontal to make
Speaker 1: them go away. And they're like six of them, and
Speaker 1: on Mythic they can't be too close to each other
Speaker 1: or else they start pulsing damage. So I think you
Speaker 1: need a line of like six world markers, and you
Speaker 1: need to like have people call out or somehow systematically
Speaker 1: assign like Okay, I'm gonna I'll put mine on circle.
Speaker 1: I'll put mine on X or whatever, and then you
Speaker 1: have to like line a tank front a lot at
Speaker 1: that while simultaneously doing the other mechanic of the phase,
Speaker 1: which is like you have these ads that you kick them,
Speaker 1: and then kicking them just like stops them from killing you,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't stop them forever, and they're shielded and
Speaker 1: you have to you have to like land these circles
Speaker 1: on them to actually break their shield and each time
Speaker 1: you kick them they teleport away a little bit. So
Speaker 1: it's like that's super annoying. And you have to land
Speaker 1: two of these four circles on each of the ads.
Speaker 1: You have to be precise of that, and then you
Speaker 1: have to kill these ads, and all this is going
Speaker 1: on while people are like kiting and then freezing their
Speaker 1: their spirits. I don't know, it's incredibly hectic. And then
Speaker 1: from normal testing it's like and then we get a
Speaker 1: phase three, which is both P one and P two
Speaker 1: at the same time, and you just have to actually
Speaker 1: do everything slow.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's slowed down though you have the ability. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but both mechanics they definitely feel like three separate phases,
Speaker 3: not necessarily like P one and P two and then
Speaker 3: it's just like, well, let's fucking do it. At the
Speaker 3: same time, it's like kind of slowed down, kind of
Speaker 3: similar to like I think Stoneleage in General's P. Three
Speaker 3: is actually I know that word is going to immediately
Speaker 3: trigger some people, but like yeah, yeah, but not in
Speaker 3: the you know, there's a lot that that isn't why
Speaker 3: the fight was bad. It's just like the cadence of
Speaker 3: the fight specifically in that phase that is a reason why.
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, Like the last phase you thought it would
Speaker 3: just be crazy, right, but then it like kind of
Speaker 3: even though it had all the mechanics, it was just
Speaker 3: slowed down enough to where it didn't actually like matter,
Speaker 3: you just kind of did them all. Yeah, pee two.
Speaker 3: They did add one thing though, where when you kick
Speaker 3: the ghost now, like the two ghosts that are out
Speaker 3: in that I guess ghosts. There's a lot of ghosts,
Speaker 3: like two guys at the ten second fear casts that
Speaker 3: you have to stop. When you kick those, everyone can
Speaker 3: temporarily see the spirits, so like that at least gives
Speaker 3: you some visual clarity. But yeah, I mean that's gonna
Speaker 3: gonna like absolutely nuke the shit out of people. I
Speaker 3: think like a lot of times on progression with those
Speaker 3: until there's i mean actually like most really complicated fights,
Speaker 3: though I think the reality is like it sounds really complicated,
Speaker 3: but by the time you get to it, you're just
Speaker 3: gonna do what you saw in a video and we're
Speaker 3: going to eventually make something that makes that hopefully consistent, right,
Speaker 3: Like there a way to solve it, except for like
Speaker 3: what's famously like that. I think glaves. Maybe that isn't
Speaker 3: true though, Like literally, no matter how there was no
Speaker 3: strat to make Glaves easy. You just like got to
Speaker 3: play the game.
Speaker 2: Wouldn't Glaze be like the opposite example. It's like something
Speaker 2: that's super simple but it's challenging.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, just to me, like I mean.
Speaker 2: Very good.
Speaker 3: Well, it's super simple and it's design where it's just like, okay,
Speaker 3: we all get it. It's like glaves or whatever, but
Speaker 3: it's not actually like it was just like the singular
Speaker 3: hardest mechanic ever, Like you could look at as like
Speaker 3: a super hard to solve, crazy puzzle thing and it's
Speaker 3: like that is only one mechanic, glaves, but like it's
Speaker 3: harder than that, and we spent i mean hours and
Speaker 3: hours and hours throwing attempts away trying to come up
Speaker 3: with any kind of system to make that single thing
Speaker 3: easier because it was so hard, and at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, it's just like, yeah, I mean, obviously
Speaker 3: you're gonna have to game, but it is it's just
Speaker 3: going to be so difficult no matter what.
Speaker 1: But yeah, fight does not really it doesn't seem like
Speaker 1: it has a Glaves equivalent, Like it seems like it's
Speaker 1: all kind of It's some of these are going to
Speaker 1: require quick reactions, and the throughput challenge is definitely there,
Speaker 1: and making a good decision about like where to bring
Speaker 1: your circles to and stuff. You know, making the correct,
Speaker 1: easiest decision is definitely going to be a big deal.
Speaker 1: But it's it doesn't seem like it's a huge like
Speaker 1: personal responsibility fight in the in the same way that
Speaker 1: Glaves was. It seems like it's a lot more like
Speaker 1: developing good systems for this and everybody understanding them, which
Speaker 1: to me personally, like this is the most excited I've
Speaker 1: ever been for a second to last boss from testing
Speaker 1: it is. It was it was such It's like usually
Speaker 1: when we're testing, by the time the one hour mark
Speaker 1: rules around, I'm like, okay, I'm glad to be out
Speaker 1: of here, right. It's like we've been wiping on something
Speaker 1: for a while. You know, I kind of understand what
Speaker 1: we'd have to do to solve this, but not everybody
Speaker 1: else does. And I don't want to try and like
Speaker 1: make a spreadsheet mid testing to to assign anymore of
Speaker 1: this stuff. With this one, it was like the hour
Speaker 1: finished and I was like, wait, this is an hour already,
Speaker 1: Like this is this is so fun. This is a
Speaker 1: blast to progress. So I'm very much looking forward to
Speaker 1: fighting that one. A couple of the bosses before it
Speaker 1: not as much. I think Twin Fangs for instance. That
Speaker 1: one's like dodging Green on Green Hell that I'm not
Speaker 1: looking forward to as much. But yeah, that was On
Speaker 1: the other side, we're pretty.
Speaker 3: Good that one. They came up with a really interesting thing,
Speaker 3: Like it's the first time in a very long time
Speaker 3: that like a boss that's in the you know nexus,
Speaker 3: Princess kaives the you know I guess, yeah, technically the
Speaker 3: Magmarax position, the sludge Fist position, the third to last
Speaker 3: boss in a linear fashion where there's no choices and
Speaker 3: it's like kind of usually where like the single target
Speaker 3: E type boss is except they just made. It is
Speaker 3: definitely going to be hard, and it is pure to
Speaker 3: target like the entire time, which is as I think
Speaker 3: we saw a little bit last season with the Vanguards
Speaker 3: the Paladins, like that one is actually on Heroic it's
Speaker 3: trip it's three target, but on on Mythic I think
Speaker 3: you're like, it's two target cleave like seventy five percent
Speaker 3: of the time. So like, but that wasn't a hard boss,
Speaker 3: Like this is a boss that should be significantly more
Speaker 3: challenging than Vanguards, and like having a boss that difficult,
Speaker 3: that has that specific of a profile is like really interesting.
Speaker 3: Maybe Lords of Dread is a similar although also very weird,
Speaker 3: Like the Damagejamp thing with that was weird, but like
Speaker 3: that's something It's two target in this game is something
Speaker 3: that is historically not balanced in any way. Yeah, so
Speaker 3: like I think that will maybe be kind of interesting.
Speaker 1: I mean you could look at lifeline of Vanguard's week
Speaker 1: one and two, like warcraft log statistics, the difference between
Speaker 1: the best specs on that and the rest versus on
Speaker 1: a single target fight was like night and day. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: this tier there is a lot of that though, Right,
Speaker 1: It's like the first boss. This is single target with
Speaker 1: ads right decond boss, two target with a third target,
Speaker 1: a prior target that spawns sometimes third boss. Two targets
Speaker 1: that are stacked, and then one target that's not. Then
Speaker 1: Vashnik is ad slop spawn thing. Scissorac is single target,
Speaker 1: but then twin fangs. Yeah, two targets with these like
Speaker 1: extra bursts of other ads spawns, coiled alter mostly single target,
Speaker 1: and then a two target last phase and then we'll
Speaker 1: attack as a question mark. But like of these, it's
Speaker 1: mostly looking like if you are a two or three
Speaker 1: target specialist, like this tier is going to be crazy
Speaker 1: lucrative for you. SU specs like Moonkin, Shadow Priest I
Speaker 1: think are have a really really high potential to be
Speaker 1: good for most of this tier, although of course the
Speaker 1: end boss is always the thing that matters the most for.
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, the which also has a lot of
Speaker 3: different kind of damage profiles to it as opposed to
Speaker 3: the usual.
Speaker 1: So yeah, we got here a bunch of eggs and stuff.
Speaker 1: You could get into this boss's room and normal testing
Speaker 1: and there's a bunch of eggs on the ceiling, so
Speaker 1: uh looks yeah, uh scary.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you said it could be a raid where moon
Speaker 3: Can is good? And that made me think, when was
Speaker 3: the last time that moon Cain was like good? Was
Speaker 3: it actually shadow Lands, like the last time you played
Speaker 3: a moon Cain and it was like strong? Maybe you
Speaker 3: could even say like stacking two of them, because I
Speaker 3: think typically when a class is like good, you want
Speaker 3: two of them.
Speaker 1: I just have bosses, right, But like, when's the last
Speaker 1: actual raid tier where you were like, Mooncin is good
Speaker 1: this tier rather than like stick Spunk Junker, moon Cain
Speaker 1: is good on this boss right?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, they were the best class in the game. In
Speaker 3: Sanctum of Domination, there's the singular best deps spec and
Speaker 3: that's like pretty rare after actually most specs never even
Speaker 3: have a period of time where that is true about them.
Speaker 3: But yeah, they it's been it's been a it's been
Speaker 3: like fuck six years since the moon Can have been
Speaker 3: good in raids somehow, and they're still very hated, which
Speaker 3: is pretty funny.
Speaker 2: Yeah, dude, all this sounds like to me is Bumkin
Speaker 2: is probably gonna end up being very dog shit for
Speaker 2: for M.
Speaker 1: Plus maybe Yeah, it's I mean like they they've reworked
Speaker 1: it on the PTR a little bit, right, So yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a super favorable raid and like it's doing really
Speaker 1: well and testing and everything. It is possible they'll nerve
Speaker 1: it so that it's good in raid but not great
Speaker 1: and then awful and m plus is of course.
Speaker 3: That happened, though, I feel like they're classes that are
Speaker 3: typically like that happens good in raid. I feel like
Speaker 3: they're almost always good in mythic plus.
Speaker 2: We're talking like feer your warrior treatment. Oh, Like in narrative,
Speaker 2: we're talking like if you have like a very specific
Speaker 2: type of damage that is just extremely good at certain situations,
Speaker 2: it's gonna get nerved, which will end up making it
Speaker 2: plus yeah.
Speaker 1: I feel like if you're good at cleave, right, if
Speaker 1: you're good at cleave, they nerve you and now you're
Speaker 1: your bad single target. You're good at cleave and you're
Speaker 1: bad at AoE, and then that means you're bad and
Speaker 1: then plus right, It.
Speaker 3: Just depends on what kind of cleave. Like I, I
Speaker 3: do think the Fury Warrior on Answerk is a very
Speaker 3: unique situation, Like I don't think it's typical every tier
Speaker 3: there's a class that's like really good in the raid
Speaker 3: and then gets nerved and makes them bad. A mythic plus,
Speaker 3: like like warrior just too.
Speaker 2: That happens quite often. I mean like shadow priests for example, right,
Speaker 2: like shadow priests have notoriously be I think despite not
Speaker 2: needing then nerve.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's the opposite though they were never good
Speaker 3: in raided. They were never nerved in because they were
Speaker 3: good in raid, which made them bad a mythic plus.
Speaker 3: It was almost the opposite.
Speaker 2: Well, like an undermine on their mind was one of
Speaker 2: them that.
Speaker 3: Was like pretty oh that like because one armed bandit
Speaker 3: was a boss because like they were like very fine
Speaker 3: and like okay for the rest of the raid, but they.
Speaker 2: Got shot by like Fiercent or some shit, and they.
Speaker 3: Weren't they weren't they mythic plus at that point though too.
Speaker 2: No, they weren't. They weren't quite mety yet. But that
Speaker 2: was the disc they were looking all right, Uh I
Speaker 2: believe this oracle is yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean typically like getting nerve to mythic plus,
Speaker 3: if like your class is really strong and mythic plus,
Speaker 3: it doesn't really affect you that much in raid because
Speaker 3: raid is a slightly different profile. It's like cleaving like
Speaker 3: three on average, it's like cleaving three to five ads
Speaker 3: on like they spawn and then they need to die,
Speaker 3: or it's like consistent two to three target cleave, which
Speaker 3: is not really Mythic Plus's profile, right, It's like either
Speaker 3: pure single target or like you're fighting like fifteen or
Speaker 3: sixteen mobs or fifteen or like twenty mobs. So like, yeah,
Speaker 3: I guess like Mythic Plus nerves are less likely to
Speaker 3: affect dungeons, but when they nerve you and raid in
Speaker 3: any way, especially your single target in a wee talents,
Speaker 3: I think that will hurt your Mythic Plus, right, because
Speaker 3: you don't want to be that class that's like farming overall,
Speaker 3: but like does nothing to bosses.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, sometimes it depends on like do they hit
Speaker 1: you in your m plus only talents or do they
Speaker 1: hit you in your you know, core coefficient or something right,
Speaker 1: which they kind of randomly decide that it is.
Speaker 3: It is interesting though, like if you're a pure Mythic
Speaker 3: Plus player and you look at it from the perspective
Speaker 3: only of like your enjoyment playing a specific spec in
Speaker 3: Mythic Plus, you at times will have your class nerve
Speaker 3: and Mythic Plus because of them making a raid boss
Speaker 3: a certain way, like one arm bandit. If Shadow Priests
Speaker 3: did get nerve that tier, it is exclusive because they
Speaker 3: were not good at anything else in that raid at all.
Speaker 3: In fact, they were like really bad for the last
Speaker 3: second to last boss, and the last boss didn't matter
Speaker 3: a bit. So like they got nerved basically because they
Speaker 3: decided to for the first time in years, by the way,
Speaker 3: design a like three target spread cleave thing for the
Speaker 3: first time ever, and then your class is just worse
Speaker 3: and mythic plus because of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it owned.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're always kind of hoping that you're not good
Speaker 1: at both if you only play one.
Speaker 3: Again, though I don't. I don't think this even happens
Speaker 3: every every season though, like it's it's not like.
Speaker 2: It's pretty often, So I would say fifth Midnight season one,
Speaker 2: it was Marksman Hunter. Marksman Hunter was one of the
Speaker 2: specs that was like looking pretty decent and it got
Speaker 2: shot on the head because of how powerful of their
Speaker 2: two three target was.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was just because of what it was, because
Speaker 1: of light blind and Vanguard right that they got shot
Speaker 1: right right? Yeah, yeah. Bear also you could you could
Speaker 1: you could argue that Bear they ended up the way
Speaker 1: that they got there was like the buff and they
Speaker 1: just happened to accidentally buffet and N plus instead of yeah,
Speaker 1: there is. There's always collateral damage, I guess between the
Speaker 1: two modes. Just yeah, the scale of it changes from
Speaker 1: tier to tier.
Speaker 2: I would say this happens very often with healers actually,
Speaker 2: which is one of the reasons why I've always said
Speaker 2: preservation will literally never be good and N plus because
Speaker 2: that class any moment it gets to shine, like just
Speaker 2: the tiniest bit, it's like, oh, this is going to
Speaker 2: be the most broken healer in RAID, which I mean,
Speaker 2: like when has this not happened, like even like literally
Speaker 2: just this week, right, like literally just today they had
Speaker 2: some their preservation evocre because it was like way too
Speaker 2: good in RAID or some shit, right, Like, I don't
Speaker 2: know anything about that class, but what I do know
Speaker 2: about that class is it's always nerved in RAID and
Speaker 2: it's never good in M plus.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I mean it has been op and raids
Speaker 1: several It was OPI and Narbar, it was Opie and Dragonfly.
Speaker 1: Uh season your season on Dragonfly, right that was it
Speaker 1: was OPI in as well.
Speaker 3: So I mean it's getting to the point where I
Speaker 3: think going into every tier, you're like you're just under
Speaker 3: the assumption preservation will be op Yeah, it's just it's
Speaker 3: just mechanical. It just has the mechanics of a class
Speaker 3: that is just insane and raid. It's just built in
Speaker 3: baseline with their spells.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what exactly is if that makes them good? I
Speaker 2: don't know anything about Froze same not a healer.
Speaker 1: I think it's like, first of all, Rewind scales really
Speaker 1: well in a raid setting, and it's not it's one
Speaker 1: of those like CDs that is is much more effective
Speaker 1: in that than in an M plus. And then also
Speaker 1: just effects like dream breath are work better in a
Speaker 1: raid situation. You know, it's easier to kind of hit
Speaker 1: everybody than an M plus the way that those pulls
Speaker 1: typically work out. So I think I think it's a
Speaker 1: combination of those things. And then layered on top of
Speaker 1: that is like the spell tuning every season. But I
Speaker 1: think that's the baseline that's the problem. But I also
Speaker 1: am not press is probably the healer that I like
Speaker 1: get the least intuitively, you know, like like knowing what,
Speaker 1: knowing when it should be doing healing and how is
Speaker 1: the least easy for me to understand.
Speaker 2: It doesn't really have an identity. Those in. I don't
Speaker 2: even know what their identity is supposed to be.
Speaker 1: I think it is like reversing damage, right, Like that
Speaker 1: seems like the thing.
Speaker 2: I don't know, I believe it, it sounds like it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems. I think they have like multiple different profiles,
Speaker 3: like they've been able to spec into like different parts
Speaker 3: of their kit. Uh, Like you can like spec into
Speaker 3: the reversion stuff, you can do, dream flight, you can
Speaker 3: do whatever. That flame big Burst of Healing was like
Speaker 3: multiple patches ago. I don't think the gameplay for those
Speaker 3: as I have all been like super similar. They just
Speaker 3: have like a ton of sauce.
Speaker 2: Dude.
Speaker 3: They're just like a newly created class and they have
Speaker 3: so much sauce that they could just cook up a
Speaker 3: build in any direction based on like what Blizzard wants
Speaker 3: to be good that patch, and it's just different and
Speaker 3: really strong in a different way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, do you guys want to do good? Door
Speaker 1: keep which?
Speaker 2: Guy? Here's my hot take about class like dentity. They
Speaker 2: need to not nerve DK's survivability. Yeah, I know, I
Speaker 2: know everyone's been all up in airs about like a.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, by any chance, just curious.
Speaker 2: I I do, but hear me out I am not
Speaker 2: for specifically DKA being uniquely powerful defensively. You know, like
Speaker 2: like I just don't like the idea of having to
Speaker 2: homogenize every single utility defensive, et ceter rub because like,
Speaker 2: you know, like at first, we were complaining about utility, right,
Speaker 2: like we complained about master Spell when it was op
Speaker 2: back and Dragonfly. We complained about you know, like mine
Speaker 2: to fade and they have to nerve all that shit.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: There was also Demon Hunter stigils, right like Dean Hunter's
Speaker 2: sigils got absolutely neutered, and it's just so fucking lame
Speaker 2: how Dean Hunter stigils are just completely worthless now And
Speaker 2: it feels like we're now raising our pitchforks at d
Speaker 2: KS because they happen to be meta for three and
Speaker 2: a half seasons in a row now in l plus
Speaker 2: and so obviously you know, everyone's like talking about the
Speaker 2: defensive kid of DPS specs now, which is like crazy
Speaker 2: because like literally no one has ever talked about this before.
Speaker 2: It's just like we've gone to the point where we're
Speaker 2: just like looking for the smallest things to complain about,
Speaker 2: and I just feel like you're just gonna lose DK's
Speaker 2: identity if you're get on their for survivability, Like, they've
Speaker 2: literally been the tankyest DPS spec for since literally very inception,
Speaker 2: right like, literally since raphablicking, they have been the tank
Speaker 2: at spec. And if they're just gonna take that away
Speaker 2: from them, I think that's extremely fucking lame. It is,
Speaker 2: it is.
Speaker 3: It's a real convenient niche to happen to be like
Speaker 3: your thing, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean not really, because I mean, like, the
Speaker 2: class hasn't been good before despite being instantly tanky, right, Like,
Speaker 2: it just so happens that Blizzard also cares a lot
Speaker 2: about tuning very damage high because of the whole raid
Speaker 2: buff situation. Like I swear if they actually just gave
Speaker 2: DK a raid buff and tune their damage appropriately, we
Speaker 2: wouldn't be thinking about DK being metal all the time.
Speaker 2: Like literally, the class is only meta because it's extremely
Speaker 2: high damage. Like everyone's gonna cope and be like, oh,
Speaker 2: I mean no, it's because of their survivability. Except no, Like, literally,
Speaker 2: the class has been this survivable for an entire decade
Speaker 2: of M plus and not a single time has it
Speaker 2: been good until I.
Speaker 3: Think you are hitting on something that's pretty important, the
Speaker 3: like the defensives in general are just overrated, like they
Speaker 3: basically make a great class morop. But I think it
Speaker 3: was much more of a problem in the game when
Speaker 3: like Mythic plus keys, where I believe how they used
Speaker 3: to be. I don't know if it's still this way now,
Speaker 3: but like where you would just straight up not be
Speaker 3: able to like live so many of the mechanics because
Speaker 3: like you started, like running into a key level where
Speaker 3: damage wasn't your issue, it was whether you could even
Speaker 3: possibly stay alive. If that's not the case you, defensiveness
Speaker 3: is like you can say it's like, oh, like it's
Speaker 3: the only thing that matters or whatever, But like, bro,
Speaker 3: if there's a class that's just doing like five percent
Speaker 3: more damage than you, and you could be the tankiest
Speaker 3: thing on planet Earth, and the best players are gonna
Speaker 3: find a way to play the thing that does five
Speaker 3: percent more damage. And if that's true, then how op
Speaker 3: are defensives? Right? Defensives are like as op as you
Speaker 3: need this amount to stay alive, but typically a class
Speaker 3: doesn't fall below that threshold of what is possible, so
Speaker 3: you always take the thing that just does more.
Speaker 2: Yeah, agreed, I mean, well, I will say one thing
Speaker 2: that does make it kind of weird this time around
Speaker 2: is Blizzer has done a much better job at balancing damage,
Speaker 2: which a lot of people probably won't agree with, because
Speaker 2: you know, everyone's always gonna be like, oh, no, Blizer
Speaker 2: balance is fucking terrible, except it's really not, Like I mean,
Speaker 2: I think Blizard has been an all time good balance
Speaker 2: compared to you. You know, you want to know.
Speaker 3: Why people will always say that. It's because you're never
Speaker 3: speaking to people who are looking at the game in
Speaker 3: its like broad scope. Because naturally what people do is
Speaker 3: they care about the thing that they play, and most
Speaker 3: people maine one thing or maybe play a few things.
Speaker 3: So if that thing isn't good, and their cues are
Speaker 3: really long and they turn into tune into your stream
Speaker 3: and they hear you say that Blizzard balance is good
Speaker 3: right now, that's going to piss them off because to them,
Speaker 3: it's not right. So, like that's why you every time
Speaker 3: you hear someone say that and get mad at you
Speaker 3: saying like, Blizzard is balancing really good right now, you're
Speaker 3: hearing a bunch of individual people from their individual perspectives
Speaker 3: being like, yes, because agreeing with that, but if because
Speaker 3: like who out there is truly a like, I look
Speaker 3: at things the way they are for everyone, like almost everyone,
Speaker 3: like ninety plus percent of people, even at the high end,
Speaker 3: are going to be so dialed in on like what
Speaker 3: they actually care about, and that is going to to
Speaker 3: tint their glasses as to how tuning actually is a blizzard.
Speaker 3: So I don't think anytime you say that and people
Speaker 3: get mad, you're necessary. I mean, you could be wrong,
Speaker 3: but I don't think it's necessarily you're wrong. It's just
Speaker 3: like people regardless of how good tuning is, people will
Speaker 3: always have that reaction for that reason.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're also going to catch agro from like people
Speaker 1: that like to blame tuning for their own failures, which
Speaker 1: I'm not saying everybody who thinks is bad is one
Speaker 1: of those people. But you also get them right, You
Speaker 1: catch it both sides of the people that think the
Speaker 1: tuning that will be mad at you for that.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's more common than it is not.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, I agree. I agree that tuning is quite
Speaker 1: good right now. I obviously there's always room for it
Speaker 1: to be better. You know, it's the we're not it's
Speaker 1: not perfect. I disagree that they shouldn't nerve dpsdks in
Speaker 1: our villainy. I'm sorry, buddy, I think I think there's okay,
Speaker 1: but how still have it be the tankiest madle gps?
Speaker 2: Sure? Sure, I mean I mean that part I can
Speaker 2: agree with, right, Like I can agree with that they
Speaker 2: should still be the tank US. I was just like wondering,
Speaker 2: like how much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I don't want them to do the major
Speaker 1: thing where it's like, oh, MAJE was the tankiest and
Speaker 1: now they're the squishiest, right and like everybody celebrates and
Speaker 1: you know, people are just there just.
Speaker 2: Like you know, the way I say it is like
Speaker 2: there's there's no way DK should ever not be the
Speaker 2: tank us, right, yeah, because they're hold whether it's like
Speaker 2: more that that's like a debate, but.
Speaker 1: But like it should wrap death statistics. It's some of
Speaker 1: the tanks, then the dpsdks, and then some of the
Speaker 1: other tanks and then like the rest of the field,
Speaker 1: which is a crazy spot. And that's like that's this
Speaker 1: year when DKs are less tanky than they used to
Speaker 1: be as well the previous years. It's even more interestingly,
Speaker 1: we've also got Shaman's up there, Ellie and Resto Shaman
Speaker 1: both joining the dkys and that kind of in the
Speaker 1: tank sandwich of the least dying. So wonder what's going
Speaker 1: on is Shaman super tanky somehow all three of their
Speaker 1: specs are like not dying very much.
Speaker 2: They're pretty beefy.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 2: So the point I was making though, is because Blizzard
Speaker 2: does such a good job at balancing the game, well
Speaker 2: balancing DPS, I should say, because they do such a
Speaker 2: good job at bouncing damage. Now we're now looking at
Speaker 2: all the character categories. We're looking at ray buffs, we're
Speaker 2: looking at utility, we're looking at survivability, and they've gutted
Speaker 2: a lot of the utility from a lot of spanks.
Speaker 2: So we points in the next thing, which is how
Speaker 2: survivable a class is. And it just feels like the
Speaker 2: game is getting so insanely homogenized to the point where
Speaker 2: you know, people just want every class to be as
Speaker 2: similar as possible.
Speaker 1: I think it's just this question of like, what are
Speaker 1: the acceptable things for your spec to be different than
Speaker 1: another spec on I think we all kind of agree
Speaker 1: that single target DPS isn't one of those things, right,
Speaker 1: It's just not acceptable for your spec to do ten
Speaker 1: percent more or less single target damage than other specs
Speaker 1: and have that be its identity, right. M plusers have
Speaker 1: been fighting for years to make aoedps also not one
Speaker 1: of those things right where it's like it just kind
Speaker 1: of used to be true that suspecs would do triple
Speaker 1: the aoedps of others, and that was kind of the
Speaker 1: way the game worked, and there's been a long fight
Speaker 1: to make it say no, no, no, that you can't
Speaker 1: be like that much better or worse at AoE than
Speaker 1: everybody else and have us not complain about it. And
Speaker 1: then the question is, like, is survivability those things right?
Speaker 1: Is survivability one of those things that is acceptable to
Speaker 1: be one of the things that differentiates specks from each other,
Speaker 1: or is it one of those things like damage where
Speaker 1: it's like, no, this makes you too much stronger to
Speaker 1: be you know this op at survivability compared to the
Speaker 1: other specs. I don't know. I I think it's one
Speaker 1: of those things where it's like, it doesn't have to
Speaker 1: be perfect balance between everything, but it it should be
Speaker 1: closer than it is right now, and it's probably better
Speaker 1: if like, it's probably better if they balance it. Aiming
Speaker 1: to bring DK like to the upper middle of the
Speaker 1: pack and then it's okay if it misses a little
Speaker 1: bit in either direction, but like we should try and
Speaker 1: have a tier where you know, the highest non take
Speaker 1: surrobility speck isn't a dpsdkspec for you know, or only
Speaker 1: by a very small amount, which guess right now it
Speaker 1: kind of is against these Shamans again, I don't know how.
Speaker 1: I don't know how the Shamans are living everything, and
Speaker 1: it's not not been the experience with the Shamans in
Speaker 1: my rate. I'll tell you what. That's a maybe it's
Speaker 1: not counting if they onc Maybe that's what's happening. I
Speaker 1: don't know, because Holy Priest has also got that because
Speaker 1: of their spirit thing. Yeah, anyway, we'll see, we'll see
Speaker 1: what they decide to do with it. They they've i mean,
Speaker 1: they've already nerved it once. It's definitely in a lot
Speaker 1: healthier of a state than it used to be. All Right,
Speaker 1: you guys wanna Okay, I.
Speaker 2: Was just say real quick too. I mean, I'm just
Speaker 2: I'm just hoping Blizzard doesn't do the thing where every
Speaker 2: class ends up becoming the same.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's all I mean. I think they'd probably get
Speaker 3: some point. I mean, maybe they're not gonna nerve de
Speaker 3: gay defensiveness because they just haven't done it yet, So
Speaker 3: I mean maybe not.
Speaker 1: Well, one thing about this tier, they've found a way
Speaker 1: to have a couple of mechanics that you can Death's
Speaker 1: advance but you don't want to, which is neat. Like
Speaker 1: they've got this knock back on sizaaq where you you
Speaker 1: get like an arrow showing you where you're gonna get knocked,
Speaker 1: and then you need to get knocked into somebody getting
Speaker 1: knocked the other way, and if you just advanced it,
Speaker 1: you're not gonna get knocked and then they're gonna get
Speaker 1: knocked off the platform because they don't have a partner
Speaker 1: to run into. So I feel like that's I like that.
Speaker 1: I like that they they've got a couple of those
Speaker 1: this year where they've kind of clearly a lot about
Speaker 1: making it so that the immunes work but aren't correct
Speaker 1: to press cool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna say, because like the only reason
Speaker 2: why I feel so strongly about this is because of
Speaker 2: specifically demons for sigils. Man, Like that shit feels so
Speaker 2: fucking bad. Yeah, allum, the fuck vengeance is even unique
Speaker 2: for nowadays?
Speaker 1: Yeah, the DH sigil thing, So they basically like deep
Speaker 1: u VDH was super op for a while, sigils were
Speaker 1: definitely part of it, but they were also just op
Speaker 1: on their own merits for other reasons, right, and then
Speaker 1: everybody was like most mad about the sigils. Uh. And
Speaker 1: then they nerve sigils like three times and they probably
Speaker 1: only use nerve from one and a half times something
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 2: So I would say, I mean, like, even if they
Speaker 2: reverted back to Legion state, it would be fine, like
Speaker 2: nobody complaining about it back in Legion or be.
Speaker 1: They also like the way the game works now, they
Speaker 1: would be less op, right because like it's you don't
Speaker 1: exactly like they've changed the way the game is on
Speaker 1: an underlying basis for m Plus, the sigils aren't as
Speaker 1: like they they aren't a huge part of the meta
Speaker 1: is overlaying your stops, your area stops like that. It
Speaker 1: would just be a nice thing to have. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm on board of rebuffing vdahe sigils. All right,
Speaker 1: you guys want to do? You guys want to do
Speaker 1: Patreon question? This one comes from uh one comes from
Speaker 1: humble Bees. By the way, if you are a patron,
Speaker 1: make sure you're checking. We're starting to publish a weekly
Speaker 1: Patreon content once again, Frankye Fridays. I don't know if
Speaker 1: we're actually uploading them on Fridays, but the alliteration was
Speaker 1: too good for us to pass up, so they're Frankey
Speaker 1: Fridays regardless of when they release. But yeah, we have
Speaker 1: this one from humble Bees that says, do you think
Speaker 1: these easier seasons will cause issues for Wow in the
Speaker 1: long run if Blizzard sticks with them. I'm discussing with
Speaker 1: friends and guilties about how people feel like this season
Speaker 1: tanks have a disportionate amount of responsibility, and I'm the
Speaker 1: main issue is that since there are like ten plus
Speaker 1: free keys and another five ish or so keys where
Speaker 1: deeps or healers just have to orm average numbers and
Speaker 1: do mechanics kind of okay, all the low keys are
Speaker 1: judged by tank routing, and it makes it feel like
Speaker 1: that tanks do so much more. And yes, tanks are
Speaker 1: squish here than before right now, but not like so
Speaker 1: much more that they do more than any other season.
Speaker 1: Though I admit I main prop Paladin and it is
Speaker 1: disfortunately harder than my bear at the nineteen to twenty
Speaker 1: range where I'm at In harder seasons, if the lower
Speaker 1: keys are harder and the ramp is slower, then all
Speaker 1: three roles are struggling in learning in keys and low keys.
Speaker 1: Like in war Within season one, dps were fucking up
Speaker 1: boss mechanics and causing wipes, and plus fours healers were
Speaker 1: failing the heel checks in stone Vault and the dB
Speaker 1: I forget what dawn breaker that's that's the one that
Speaker 1: one is in plus eights and bricking keys. No one
Speaker 1: was hating on one roll because everyone had responsibilities that
Speaker 1: were run ending, Whereas right now, if all five players
Speaker 1: don't know what they're doing at a plus ten, the
Speaker 1: DPS and HPS is still fine and they just all
Speaker 1: rag on the tank for bad routing and polls. Do
Speaker 1: you agree or disagree? Do you like these easier seasons
Speaker 1: where an experienced player can sneeze and get three K?
Speaker 1: Do you think this design will hold up if it's
Speaker 1: like this all the time, or it is Blizzard intentionally
Speaker 1: doing easy seasons and then going back going to go
Speaker 1: back to harder seasons again, like when also Dragonfly season three.
Speaker 2: I mean, this is one hundred percent of thing right now,
Speaker 2: Like it's not even a question about it. In fact,
Speaker 2: it's been a pretty hot topic because of how easy
Speaker 2: keys have become, where people are just like completely clueless
Speaker 2: and you're seeing things that are that shouldn't be seen
Speaker 2: at key levels that you would not expect, If that
Speaker 2: makes any sense. Yeah, I remember seen key for example,
Speaker 2: and people are just completely clueless. Yeah, like all example.
Speaker 1: Remember when og first came out and everybody was like
Speaker 1: just these horror stories of these agivocres because they got
Speaker 1: because it was so easy to get high io as
Speaker 1: an augivocre and then you would just have these reports
Speaker 1: of like oggs with three KIO that didn't know like
Speaker 1: basic mechanics. Yeah. I agree that that's a problem. I
Speaker 1: disagree with the diagnosis. I don't think it's about like
Speaker 1: the overall ease of the keys. It's just if that
Speaker 1: difficulty lands in an imbalanced way upon the rolls, right,
Speaker 1: So it's like it's not because tens are easy, it's
Speaker 1: because Hanks have a relatively harder job than the other
Speaker 1: roles this season and healers to a lesser extent as well,
Speaker 1: And that is already something Blizzard is like taking a
Speaker 1: swing at fixing next season. I think it's almost always
Speaker 1: going to be in that direction. Like it's hard to
Speaker 1: imagine a season where tanking isn't one of the hardest roles.
Speaker 1: But again, narrowing that gap will make that less true.
Speaker 1: And I don't think that the question is like the
Speaker 1: success rate in plus tens or plus fives or plus
Speaker 1: fifteen's right, it's just a question of like how much
Speaker 1: does that success hinge on one role in particular versus everybody.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I one thing that is definitely I don't think
Speaker 3: there's ever going to be a time in whow though
Speaker 3: where tanking isn't the hardest role by far and the
Speaker 3: reason why your keys are really hard, And I don't
Speaker 3: I mean, it'd be insane if Blizzard could find a
Speaker 3: way to change that, because I think it's like actually
Speaker 3: a pretty big problem. But it's just like kind of
Speaker 3: at this point, it like kind of just is what
Speaker 3: it is.
Speaker 1: You Know, there have been a couple of healer I
Speaker 1: don't want to say like healer seasons, but there have
Speaker 1: been seasons where there've been heer bosses, Right, you like
Speaker 1: zone into a Temples sitralis the first time, and it's
Speaker 1: like can my healer heal the third boss right or
Speaker 1: like hals.
Speaker 3: No cut offensive second boss a little bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah early exactly. Yeah, so there are some there happened,
Speaker 1: but they they've trended away from doing that. Like when
Speaker 1: quarter Stars came out, they basically like nuked the first
Speaker 1: boss or the last boss so that it wasn't a
Speaker 1: boss like that like it was back in Legion. So
Speaker 1: I think unless they did that again, and I don't
Speaker 1: for the record, I don't think the shou make healing harder.
Speaker 1: I think healing is also harder than DPS and it
Speaker 1: should be probably brought down towards DPS rather thanough towards tanks.
Speaker 2: I mean, how would you do that? Is well, I
Speaker 2: mean they've mentioned in their blue posts bats.
Speaker 1: They're doing it this season right or this coming season.
Speaker 1: They're they're trying to like just put in some damage
Speaker 1: downs and make DPS checks tighter, and those are I
Speaker 1: think a lot of the a lot of the responsibility there. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just like hard to say if those will
Speaker 2: exactly achieve that goal, because I mean it could just
Speaker 2: end up being like, oh well, tank just has to
Speaker 2: pull bigger, like you didn't pull big enough, or I
Speaker 2: mean you postle big and the healers just couldn't keep up,
Speaker 2: Like what's happening heler, Like why aren't you healing all
Speaker 2: this damage going on? Or like the poles is just
Speaker 2: living forever and you're running out of midigation or cool
Speaker 2: downs to heal the pack, and it's like it's hard
Speaker 2: to exactly fix the issue. But I will say, like
Speaker 2: the role thing aside, I do think it is eventually
Speaker 2: going to be a problem when you're mixed matching expectations
Speaker 2: m hm, because like the Wave Lizard has been designing
Speaker 2: a lot of the content recently, is like, you know,
Speaker 2: if they try to have a lot more easy or
Speaker 2: like forgiving content right like essentially doing plus tens right
Speaker 2: now is a complete joke compared to how it was
Speaker 2: in War offin season one, and that that's just like
Speaker 2: you know, a verir way of having players to be
Speaker 2: able to get into content and do it, get easy
Speaker 2: gear and just be able to like fail upwards sort of.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I necessarily agree with that direction.
Speaker 2: I feel like there needs to be some type of
Speaker 2: proving grounds type of situation. I'm not saying like, you know,
Speaker 2: if you need proving grounds, but like there needs to
Speaker 2: be a way to gauge players and for players to
Speaker 2: be like, all right, you know, like you gotta be
Speaker 2: able to get through this. You got to be able
Speaker 2: to like press your fucking cakes before you can advance.
Speaker 3: Is it? Yeah, there is going to be that every
Speaker 3: Like was it just that, like mechanics were more difficult
Speaker 3: in dungeons, so to even do low level ones you
Speaker 3: had to do them. But like, is this a product
Speaker 3: of them also making like things more visual in dungeons
Speaker 3: now and like there's kind of less going on per pack,
Speaker 3: But like, shouldn't there always theoretically be a level where Okay,
Speaker 3: players are now at keys and are not performing where
Speaker 3: you'd expect. It's just the level will raise if the
Speaker 3: keys are like easier, right, Like, the level will be higher.
Speaker 3: Or is it just that, like now that they're putting
Speaker 3: incentives for people actually to push past whatever, right like
Speaker 3: the new title or mount or whatever? It was like,
Speaker 3: is it just that you're seeing people that have never
Speaker 3: pushed high mythic plus try to push into higher mythic
Speaker 3: plus and therefore obviously there's some growing pains with that.
Speaker 3: Is it?
Speaker 2: Is it not that I think that's a large part
Speaker 2: of it. You're definitely right about that, but also like
Speaker 2: the fact that they're even up there is kind of
Speaker 2: crazy to begin with, Like you shouldn't expect to see
Speaker 2: these people in eighteen or twenties.
Speaker 1: That is something that people have been complaining about since
Speaker 1: n plus has come out. Rights, like the nubes in
Speaker 1: my key level that shouldn't be here.
Speaker 2: It's just gotten worse. Yeah, like it's always gonna be
Speaker 2: a thing, like there will always be nubes in your grooves,
Speaker 2: Like that's just how it is. But it's certainly gotten
Speaker 2: worse and I've certainly seen a lot more complaints about it.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like how like in Fellowship, you have
Speaker 2: a certain expectation before you advance a league, right, like
Speaker 2: you gotta be the high skill level. Yeah, you have
Speaker 2: to actually like be competent enough to be able to
Speaker 2: clear sith Thrill's fall against the Eternal.
Speaker 1: But there isn't really power without mentioning fellowships. So does.
Speaker 3: Fellowship has something that I think would maybe negatively impact Wow,
Speaker 3: which is that once you get to Eternal and Fellowship,
Speaker 3: what he's referring to is everything like all these mobs
Speaker 3: gained like literally every enemy gains a mechanic and bosses
Speaker 3: gain a mechanic, and I feel like that would actually
Speaker 3: wouldn't that make the problem you're referring to right now
Speaker 3: like infinitely worse. Like people get to this level they
Speaker 3: weren't at before, and then not only are they should
Speaker 3: they not be here, but also now they're all the
Speaker 3: bobs have mechanics they couldn't have possibly learned before, and
Speaker 3: now you're dealing with this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think it's also fine. Like I think
Speaker 2: it's fine to fail. It's just people are too afraid
Speaker 2: of failure.
Speaker 1: It's fine when I fail because I'm learning a mechanic
Speaker 1: and it's fun. But if somebody else in my group
Speaker 1: fails because they're learning the mechanic's like they're wasting my
Speaker 1: time being nubes in my key level and they presumably
Speaker 1: bought a boost from Max to get the IoT, you know,
Speaker 1: is polluting my my group finder experience. So that's that's
Speaker 1: my take on this one.
Speaker 3: I mean, just the premise of do you think easier
Speaker 3: seasons will cause issues a while on the long term?
Speaker 3: I would also think though that like, you know, like
Speaker 3: didn't people do record numbers of mythic plus this season?
Speaker 3: You know, so is it gonna hurt Wow, that just
Speaker 3: more people are interacting with keys and they happen to
Speaker 3: be slightly easier. I think just the volume is actually
Speaker 3: a plus, honestly, because I think if you look at
Speaker 3: the opposite way, where you make stuff way harder, I
Speaker 3: think less people interact with it, and people are not
Speaker 3: getting better at the game because they're spending less time
Speaker 3: doing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I've actually heard um TV talk about this, Like I
Speaker 2: remember talking about this with THEILM and he said something
Speaker 2: along the lines of like wild numbers are up right
Speaker 2: now when it's obviously great that a lot of people
Speaker 2: are engaging with this. Is this sustainable and is this
Speaker 2: gonna happen in the long term? Is the goals not
Speaker 2: just going to move where it's like, oh well, I mean.
Speaker 1: It's to get easier every season. Yeah, a card game,
Speaker 1: right where you know each set needs to be stronger
Speaker 1: than the last one to keep the the ramp going
Speaker 1: in the right direction.
Speaker 3: I mean, like, like we said before, with card games,
Speaker 3: there is never a perfect thing, Like you could create
Speaker 3: the perfect version of the game and it would have
Speaker 3: to change because things can't stay the same. So like,
Speaker 3: maybe it's just like goes in a cycle. Bro, Maybe
Speaker 3: we just get affixes again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, bring back keys depleting no resilient keys, h affixes,
Speaker 1: seasonal affixes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the little Throwbacks is coming back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Classic, Classical Legion M plus. That's a dude. I'm excited.
Speaker 1: I'm excited to see where they go with where they
Speaker 1: go with Classic. I bet we'll find out. I was gone,
Speaker 1: what the what the vibe is going to be? I
Speaker 1: don't know. I have you guys been following the like
Speaker 1: League Classic uh saga, it's it. People have been comparing
Speaker 1: it more to like Season of Discovery, Yeah, where it's
Speaker 1: like it's like launching, but it's not really a version
Speaker 1: of the game that ever existed. It's it's like kind
Speaker 1: of Classic inspired Classic, you know, reminiscent, but it's like
Speaker 1: a set of champions that are kind of durated to
Speaker 1: feel like classic rather than a specific timestamp. And yeah,
Speaker 1: like some mechanics are the old ones and some mechanics
Speaker 1: are the new ones.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like they're trying to do the Yeah, Blizzard
Speaker 3: went with the like full, let's do Classic, well not
Speaker 3: full because like I guess they they chose a like
Speaker 3: later balance patch in the expansion to be the balance
Speaker 3: for or whatever. Yeah, so there was like some stuff
Speaker 3: with that, but uh yeah, I don't know I could
Speaker 3: They're they were like, well, we did make a lot
Speaker 3: of good decisions from then until now. We could apply
Speaker 3: a few of those and maybe have this be more curated.
Speaker 3: But the problem is is that directly contradicts like nostalgia right,
Speaker 3: Like a lot of times people aren't necessarily looking to
Speaker 3: go back and play like the best game ever. They
Speaker 3: want to play the game they played when they were
Speaker 3: a kid and really happy, so like they may not
Speaker 3: like things being different at all, even if they have
Speaker 3: like good thought behind it.
Speaker 2: I'm pretty disappointed by the Classic League, even though, like
Speaker 2: I now I know how the Classic andies feel because
Speaker 2: as someone who played the shit out of Old League
Speaker 2: back in like twenty eleven twenty tive, it's definitely I mean,
Speaker 2: I'll probably wasn't planning on playing it anyways, because I'm
Speaker 2: not really feeling the league in my life, but the
Speaker 2: idea of it being there would have been really fucking
Speaker 2: cool too, possibly entertained.
Speaker 1: I have, like, I have very little interested in playing
Speaker 1: Classic League either. One thing I do like about it
Speaker 1: is they're kind of doing that like old school RuneScape
Speaker 1: thing where they're going to do community votes on stuff
Speaker 1: and take the input that way, which I do. I
Speaker 1: do think that's a good way to make it so
Speaker 1: that even if you kind of initially land in a
Speaker 1: place that people don't like, at least the people that
Speaker 1: like stick with it and are excited about it will
Speaker 1: probably be happy about like the continued direction if you
Speaker 1: keep doing stuffy by votes and things. So yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I'm watching with interest, but also not that
Speaker 1: much interest. They've been pushing all these like show matches
Speaker 1: and stuff that I just don't have too much interest
Speaker 1: in watching. You know, the league bros from ten years
Speaker 1: ago played Classic League against each other. As somebody who
Speaker 1: watches like a lot of Modern League whenever it's.
Speaker 3: I totally get that. It's just nostalgia, bab bro, Like
Speaker 3: they're just they're trying to advertise their things so they
Speaker 3: can make money, and they are, Yeah, they were, like, dude,
Speaker 3: you remember when you watched like Double Lift and Wild
Speaker 3: Turtle And I'm just thinking of random game venue from
Speaker 3: back then, play league, like holy fuck, that's happening again.
Speaker 3: And then and and maybe you will go on and
Speaker 3: you're excited. I get it. That's smart marketing. Honestly, I
Speaker 3: bet people like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just me personally, doesn't hit me, but I agree.
Speaker 1: It's like I I get why they're doing it, and
Speaker 1: I bet it works anyway. That's kind of all the
Speaker 1: stuff plus the plus and bonus that I hadn't thought
Speaker 1: of for us talk about this week either. You guys
Speaker 1: got any other topics, but.
Speaker 3: Uh, I got one. Uh. I'm going to my uh
Speaker 3: my nephew's graduation. He's graduating high school or has graduated
Speaker 3: high school, and I'm going to his party, uh, flying
Speaker 3: there tomorrow. What do you like? What is a graduation gift?
Speaker 3: You know, what's the what's the what's the vibe with that?
Speaker 3: Have you guys ever interacted with that?
Speaker 1: A Crisp one hundred dollars bill?
Speaker 3: Yeah? That, I mean that makes the most sense to me.
Speaker 3: That's an easy thing. I just don't know if you're
Speaker 3: supposed to like get all creative and ship Actually no, Nah,
Speaker 3: you're totally right. Like, if you're an eighteen year old,
Speaker 3: what do you want more than anything else? Bro A
Speaker 3: fucking nice CRISP one hundred dollars bill would kind of
Speaker 3: go insane. That's like, that's about it worth your a year.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: One hundred bucks is nothing nowadays, man, Like back in
Speaker 2: back when I was eighteen, get a hundred bucks, Holy fuck,
Speaker 2: I we didn't see. But like nowadays, yeah, I.
Speaker 3: Mean it still buys you roughly the same amount of
Speaker 3: video game that that bought you back in the day.
Speaker 2: Like they've gotten to like get a physical copy anymore.
Speaker 3: Like that's the one thing that I wonder if it
Speaker 3: is ever going to affect the video game industry that like,
Speaker 3: basically games used to be sixty dollars. Now they're still
Speaker 3: mostly sixty dollars triple A releases, but they also like
Speaker 3: are sometimes like seventy or eighty or whatever. But the
Speaker 3: cost of creating those games has tripled. And I don't
Speaker 3: really know how that makes sense, Like how how they
Speaker 3: still make.
Speaker 2: The amount of gamers is significantly higher. I remember reading
Speaker 2: somewhere about there's like twenty times more gamers, maybe even more.
Speaker 2: I don't remember exactly how much. Oh yeah, maybe it's
Speaker 2: that there are significantly more gamers.
Speaker 3: How many copies of Grand Theft Auto six do you
Speaker 3: think are going to sell?
Speaker 2: Oh, dude, probably like a billion or something.
Speaker 3: Bro, They're not going to sell a billion copies of
Speaker 3: that game, that would be do didn't you imagine if
Speaker 3: one at a.
Speaker 1: The game, Holy, how many GTA five copies sold?
Speaker 2: Okay, read it some crazy amount.
Speaker 1: Like okay, in the low hundreds of millions, and that's
Speaker 1: over like long years, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but build that hype.
Speaker 3: And I mean it's going it's going to be the
Speaker 3: highest selling game of all time.
Speaker 1: Maybe one hundred billion a month or something.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Basically, I don't think there's a number. If like, okay,
Speaker 3: if I fast forward in time, it's a month after
Speaker 3: it came out and I read an article that's like,
Speaker 3: it's sold this many copies, I don't know if there's
Speaker 3: a number, or if there is a number, that would
Speaker 3: surprise me. It's really really high, right, A billion would
Speaker 3: be kind of fucking there's holy half billion, half I
Speaker 3: mean even half a billion.
Speaker 1: That in one every one person who ever bought g
Speaker 1: T A five, two people are going to buy GTA six.
Speaker 2: That's fucking I mean that that usually happens with a
Speaker 2: crazy amount of additional people decide to play any series,
Speaker 2: especially with like how much hype it's built up.
Speaker 3: What's the lure behind that? Is it not launching with
Speaker 3: uh with online? Is that the is that? What I
Speaker 3: remember reading.
Speaker 2: Something about having to buy extra for something that on
Speaker 2: the own.
Speaker 1: There was something about the like I saw a meme
Speaker 1: that was like how the shopkeepers look at you and
Speaker 1: GTA six if you didn't buy the Ultra Premium edition,
Speaker 1: then there's like some yeah, the content that's gated behind that.
Speaker 1: I don't know if that was just speculation or if
Speaker 1: that's been announced.
Speaker 2: Actually, I guess that would deter a ton of people
Speaker 2: from actually playing, So I take that.
Speaker 3: I think that you think so, But like I think
Speaker 3: they're being really frugal and they want people to buy
Speaker 3: the Giga Ultimate Edition because they think people will, you know,
Speaker 3: like you can get mad at them and be like like, yo,
Speaker 3: fuck you guys for doing this, but just like you're
Speaker 3: gonna buy it, So like how much can you really
Speaker 3: blame them for it? They're they're offering a price that
Speaker 3: people are willing to pay. It makes sense.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's actually so insane though, Like every time
Speaker 2: they release the new trailer or some shit, they get
Speaker 2: an absurd amount of views within like twelve hours.
Speaker 1: Yeah oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's gonna go crazy when
Speaker 1: it when it comes out. I like every other game
Speaker 1: is moving to avoid releasing anything.
Speaker 2: Every game is releasing September.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's gonna be What other game do you
Speaker 3: think would be that massive in the gaming industry?
Speaker 1: Maybe I don't think.
Speaker 3: I think I think like the successor to elden Ring,
Speaker 3: I think might also be Like I think it's a
Speaker 3: more hardcore gamer maybe than like I think gtaight just
Speaker 3: has like such wide appeal that I mean, it's probably
Speaker 3: just gonna always be the most best selling game of
Speaker 3: all time, probably if they.
Speaker 1: Hadn't released a Maddens It's like twenty twelve Madden twenty
Speaker 1: twenty seven.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but like that's just like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like cod like no one really gives
Speaker 2: a shit, Like it's just yeah, yeah, It's like it's
Speaker 2: like a new iPhone, Like wow.
Speaker 3: Like I don't think I know a single person that
Speaker 3: won't play GTA six.
Speaker 2: Like crazy, I like kind of don't really give a
Speaker 2: shit about GTA six.
Speaker 3: Br I think it's gonna be so insane.
Speaker 2: I never really fully played GTAs, Like I've played Vice
Speaker 2: City and San Andreas, but like I kind of just
Speaker 2: fucked around on when never actually like played them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like just drive around.
Speaker 3: You know, I think like a lot of decent amount
Speaker 3: of people are just gonna buy it just to drink
Speaker 3: beers on their couch and just like run someone over
Speaker 3: with a car and be like and then drink their
Speaker 3: beer and keep going. You know, like I don't even
Speaker 3: know what that deep. I mean, obviously there's a lot
Speaker 3: of like story, andyes, I bet the story is good.
Speaker 3: They've spent a million years on it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure. Like I think I played through most
Speaker 1: of the story at GTA five and I remember enjoying it,
Speaker 1: but I also don't remember what happened.
Speaker 3: So yeah. Also, I think another thing is like they
Speaker 3: seem to be pitching like ground baking breaking graphics. Like
Speaker 3: it's like, you know, you're gonna like see a game
Speaker 3: that's never looked quite like this. But also personally, I'm
Speaker 3: someone that that that doesn't affect me at all. I
Speaker 3: have like a bulletproof shield against like graphics ever mattering.
Speaker 3: It's like, basically it's capped out somewhere in the mid
Speaker 3: twenty tens to where every game just looks good enough
Speaker 3: and that's fine, and how much farther it goes past
Speaker 3: that has Maybe this will change that but no game
Speaker 3: has ever made me feel that way. I've never been like,
Speaker 3: holy fuck, it's just like game play.
Speaker 1: Oh I got the sweatdrops glistening off of this characters.
Speaker 2: Well I feel that that's probably more true nowadays too,
Speaker 2: because like I'll think about, like, you know, like kids
Speaker 2: they play shit like fucking Fortnite in Minecraft and all that.
Speaker 2: That's what they grew up on. Like, I don't think
Speaker 2: kids give a shit about graphics. I think for us,
Speaker 2: when we were growing up, it was kind of like
Speaker 2: we were seeing the evolution of graphics and it was
Speaker 2: really fucking cool, right, Like we went from like you know,
Speaker 2: like Half Life two and then like when Drop like
Speaker 2: that was creazy. Yeah, holy shit, Yeah I was a
Speaker 2: big one, and then like you know, eventually we got
Speaker 2: like cyberpunk and stuff, and it was fucking crazy seeing
Speaker 2: that evolution. But like for a lot of these kids,
Speaker 2: they kind of take it for granted. And I don't
Speaker 2: know how much the newer audience, the newer generation gives
Speaker 2: a shit about graphics in video games.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, you did mention one thing where it's like, okay,
Speaker 3: well they're used to like Fortnite and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: Have you noticed that like most like popular mobile games
Speaker 3: also end up doing the like really bubbly animation Fortnite thing. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's actually funny because the like that entire generation, which
Speaker 3: is also the generation that loves mobile games, they are
Speaker 3: just used to that. Like maybe they didn't grow up
Speaker 3: in the era like when we were growing up, uh,
Speaker 3: we games were like trying to look more realistic, and
Speaker 3: if you remember those games, initially they did not look
Speaker 3: realistic at all, and we were inching closer and closer
Speaker 3: that and that was really cool. But these a lot
Speaker 3: of these dudes have been born since, like games have
Speaker 3: kind of just been looking really good since they were born,
Speaker 3: and that probably doesn't interest them as much the like
Speaker 3: road to realism like we went through. I think. I
Speaker 3: think it's more like they're they're okay in like the
Speaker 3: video game cartoony world, because you know, they weren't a
Speaker 3: part of that road, I think, and that they won't
Speaker 3: That's why all those apps look like that, because they
Speaker 3: literally prefer that they won't play the game that looks
Speaker 3: like the old school Diablo too looking as shit that
Speaker 3: like we would look at and be like, oh, this
Speaker 3: is nice, you know, because we're used to it. You
Speaker 3: grew up with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fucking boomer beat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, dude, I will say I'm a little worried about
Speaker 1: Elder Scroll six. It's uh, I don't know, as somebody
Speaker 1: who loves that that franchise. You guys brought it up earlier.
Speaker 1: I think like Starfield sucked. Fall Out four I think
Speaker 1: was worse than Fallouts three in New Vegas and stuff.
Speaker 1: Fall Out seventy six was h was weird. I don't know,
Speaker 1: I'm a little worried about Elder Scroll six. I think
Speaker 1: that one it's got a lot of the expectations on it.
Speaker 3: I don't know if I ever played a game in
Speaker 3: this universe, what is what? What is another Elder Scrolls game?
Speaker 1: Is that like Skyrim, Skyries, Skyriman Oblivion and more Wind
Speaker 1: where the the last three in the series. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: ones that came out while I was alive. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: like the you know, like first person or third person
Speaker 1: RPG where you've got like combat but it's not it's
Speaker 1: not hard combat really.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah exactly, that's probably why.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like, you know, like it's like branching ways
Speaker 1: that you can you kind of have your character that
Speaker 1: you know, maybe you're a mage, or you make yourself
Speaker 1: like a stealth archer, or you make yourself like a warrior.
Speaker 1: You make yourself a stealth archer. I make myself a
Speaker 1: stealth archer invariably every playthrough because it's like the best.
Speaker 1: But uh, you'll then you like, you know, you kind
Speaker 1: of decide like how you're gonna deal with all these
Speaker 1: that you have these like, oh, I've got all my
Speaker 1: little skills, I got my lock picking, I got my speech,
Speaker 1: I got my various and you put your points in
Speaker 1: different ones and then it's like a lot of quests
Speaker 1: can be solved with different combinations of those or you know,
Speaker 1: brute force, and you can side with the blue guys
Speaker 1: or the red guys. And then oh, you do your
Speaker 1: second play through and you side with the other guys
Speaker 1: and you see what the story is like if you
Speaker 1: do that right, and that it's very much not Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think you would get almost nothing out of it.
Speaker 1: So even if Elders Girl six is good, I bet
Speaker 1: you wouldn't like it. But I probably like Starfield was
Speaker 1: the most recent like triple A big release game, and
Speaker 1: everybody's kind of just memory hold it because it just sucked.
Speaker 1: It was like not good combat and also not good story,
Speaker 1: and like the procedurally generated worlds were all super bland
Speaker 1: and boring and empty.
Speaker 2: So I have heard Starfield is really solid now, I
Speaker 2: mean i've.
Speaker 1: Seen been updating it, but I have I heard that
Speaker 1: it was still bad. I do want to play it
Speaker 1: at some point if it is good, though, Dude, I.
Speaker 3: Have a I have a dilemma with Starfield, where like,
Speaker 3: it seems like the perfect game to play on my
Speaker 3: couch with my dogs. My girlfriend's like working on a
Speaker 3: puzzle on the other side of the room, and I'm
Speaker 3: just like just slamming it and not really caring. But
Speaker 3: the only problem is, if you've ever played any kind
Speaker 3: of FPS with a house, shooting with a controller is
Speaker 3: like unholy, sacrilegious and terrible. So I just don't want
Speaker 3: to do that. But I also don't want to be
Speaker 3: in my room on my computer playing Starfield because that
Speaker 3: doesn't fit the vibe and those two things just don't mix,
Speaker 3: and it bothers me.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I play God as a on console.
Speaker 3: I would never play an FPS with a controller. No,
Speaker 3: I'm no, I'm a follower of the Lord.
Speaker 2: Oh, I mean that's pretty base, but that's kind of
Speaker 2: crazy easy, dude.
Speaker 1: I don't think I've played a FBS on a controller. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I played ARPGs and stuff.
Speaker 2: On no CODs. You guys have played cod back in like.
Speaker 1: I just played on my computer. Mess. I mean I
Speaker 1: used to, like back in twenty thirteen or whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: On the controller. But I don't think I could go back.
Speaker 3: Dude, playing FPS games on a controller disgusts me.
Speaker 2: Like, actually, I agree, but like figure you guys would
Speaker 2: have some experience with a leet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I have in my lifetime. I have,
Speaker 1: But I also no, actually that's not true when I've
Speaker 1: heard it.
Speaker 3: Got we When I got the Nintendo Wii I as
Speaker 3: a kid, I got Call of Duty World at War?
Speaker 3: Maybe is that a Is that a game?
Speaker 1: Sounds like it?
Speaker 3: I have like a black and white yeah, bro, yeah
Speaker 3: I had that. I got that on the Nintendo Wii,
Speaker 3: and I don't even really remember how that worked. I
Speaker 3: don't know if I was like swinging my little sword
Speaker 3: at whatever or pointing my ship at the screen.
Speaker 1: Beast. All right, that's it for the potyc That's it
Speaker 1: for the Pottycy this week. That's all that we have.
Speaker 1: We'll be back next week for more bodies. Audios Adios,