WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:02.520 Join us if you want. We're actually gonna go a 2 00:00:02.600 --> 00:00:06.759 gonzo podcast. Oh and you not can be on it. Yeah, 3 00:00:07.040 --> 00:00:08.560 that's exactly what I was gonna ask you. 4 00:00:08.720 --> 00:00:15.000 Whiskey coming Thames Payne, Oh Whiskey, don't. 5 00:00:14.759 --> 00:00:15.480 You leave me? 6 00:00:17.480 --> 00:00:21.440 From power Line blog dot com and produced by Ricochet 7 00:00:21.480 --> 00:00:26.399 dot Com. This is the Three Whiskey Happy Hour with 8 00:00:26.519 --> 00:00:32.119 your bartenders Steve Hayward, John You and power Lines International 9 00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:34.960 Woman of Mystery Lucretia. 10 00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:39.719 You gotta giving let that whiskey blow where you're being 11 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:41.679 in love down in low. 12 00:00:45.079 --> 00:00:47.079 We glad you might have guessed from that little teaser 13 00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:49.200 before the bumper music, this is not going to be 14 00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:51.960 a normal episode of the Three Whiskey Happy Hour. We're 15 00:00:51.960 --> 00:00:54.640 missing Lucretia, who's away on some secret mission for the 16 00:00:54.719 --> 00:00:56.920 army or something like that. Uh and John, You and 17 00:00:56.960 --> 00:01:00.520 I are at the annual convention of the Federalist Society 18 00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:03.640 where it became impossible to actually schedule a time to 19 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:06.200 try and do something sensible, So we just picked a 20 00:01:06.200 --> 00:01:09.480 corner of one of the reception rooms during cocktail hour 21 00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:12.599 and opened our table to all comers, and we had 22 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:15.680 several commers. So among the people who joined us for 23 00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:20.560 a completely unscripted and unplanned episode included Ilia Shapiro and 24 00:01:20.680 --> 00:01:24.359 Rothel Manguel from the Manhattan Institute. Our old friend had 25 00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:29.159 the arcis, of course, Roger Palan emeritus from the Cato Institute, 26 00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:34.359 the noted appellate lawyer Eric Jaffey, and a retired Republican 27 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:38.040 attorney from Utah, and a faithful listener to the Three 28 00:01:38.040 --> 00:01:41.560 Whiskey Happy Hour, Jacob minus John You dropped in and out. 29 00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:44.879 The intention was to have John surrounded and outnumbered on 30 00:01:44.920 --> 00:01:48.359 the natural law question, but some of my interlocutors disappointed me. 31 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:52.439 But in any event, pull up. This is pretty crazy. 32 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:54.879 But we were told by a number of lawyers and 33 00:01:54.920 --> 00:01:58.480 people attending that they didn't have their regular episode, they 34 00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:00.439 were going to be very cross with us. So we 35 00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:03.719 like to deliver when we can, So strap in, put 36 00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:04.439 yourself a drink. 37 00:02:04.599 --> 00:02:05.159 Here we go. 38 00:02:06.519 --> 00:02:09.479 All right, everybody, this is a special edition of the 39 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:13.719 Three Whiskey Happy Hour. Here comes Ilia Shapiro. Now, John, 40 00:02:13.719 --> 00:02:15.599 you and I are at the Federal Society Conference. 41 00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:18.800 Steve John, you sent me specifically to speak to you here. 42 00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:21.080 Yes, okay, Well I didn't agree to be on it 43 00:02:21.080 --> 00:02:21.439 with him. 44 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:25.520 Well you know what, See, we don't have the Cretia 45 00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:27.719 with us tonight because she's doing some secret army thing. 46 00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:31.000 But we're here with a whole bunch of eminent lawyers. 47 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:33.439 Rafa m Manuel to my right for the Manhattan Institute. 48 00:02:33.639 --> 00:02:36.360 Eric Jaffey, a prominent appellate lawyer. 49 00:02:36.439 --> 00:02:37.439 Is that a correct description? 50 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:41.560 Ilia Shapiro a colleague of Raphael's at Manhattan Institute. So 51 00:02:41.560 --> 00:02:45.439 the Manhattan Institute is overrepresented here and from the Mountain 52 00:02:45.479 --> 00:02:48.680 States area. Jacob Minus of the Salt Lake City Lawyers Chapter, 53 00:02:48.719 --> 00:02:51.520 who we meet up with every year at the Western 54 00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:52.199 Regional Summit. 55 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:53.800 I'm an unemployed ski bomb. 56 00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:57.479 John You is out trying to wrangle a couple of 57 00:02:57.479 --> 00:02:59.080 more people and get a drink from the bar. 58 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:02.400 So hey, cheers, gentlemen. Let me start with the you, 59 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:06.199 Raphael the uh he goes by Ralph. I don't ray 60 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:08.680 for rison't it right? I know? I just I'll answer 61 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:09.800 to almost anything. 62 00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:12.840 Especially if there's a cocktawnall that's right? 63 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:14.759 Right? Yeah, Well you're reaking the home with that one. 64 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:15.639 Ah who. 65 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:19.240 So everybody here is all carry smiles or mostly smiles, 66 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:22.560 except maybe for the Attorney General designate. That's the only 67 00:03:22.599 --> 00:03:25.520 one that's getting a lot of frowns, but everyone's excited 68 00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:27.759 about the election. I think Raphael'll start with you. M 69 00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:30.800 I mean, I guess I can ask a question, but 70 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:33.680 you can say anything you want, which is we actually 71 00:03:33.719 --> 00:03:37.080 saw Trump improve his showing in deep blue cities around 72 00:03:37.120 --> 00:03:39.599 the crime and crime is one of your beats, and 73 00:03:39.639 --> 00:03:41.080 it does seem like that was a big factor. 74 00:03:41.159 --> 00:03:42.960 I think it was absolutely a big factor. And I 75 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:44.840 think you know, if you look at the blue cities 76 00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:47.360 and states, that tells a compelling story, right, and can 77 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:49.319 take a look at California, look at what happened. He 78 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:53.639 had George Gascone get absolutely wiped out by Nate Hawkman, 79 00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:57.159 who ran an unabashedly pro law and order campaign. You 80 00:03:57.240 --> 00:04:00.560 had Prop thirty six, the statewide ballot proper position, which 81 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:03.560 sought to undue parts of Prop forty seven past seventy 82 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:05.319 thirty seventy thirty. 83 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:08.280 I mean that's amazing. And Caamwa Harris wouldn't take a position, right, 84 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:10.599 You got to ask yourself who. 85 00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:12.520 Is it that she was trying not to alienate with 86 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:13.240 that silence? 87 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:13.479 Right? 88 00:04:14.159 --> 00:04:16.759 You know, you go up north, you got Pamela Price 89 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:20.319 in shang Taw and Oakland both getting recalled. I mean, 90 00:04:20.519 --> 00:04:21.160 that's incredible. 91 00:04:21.160 --> 00:04:22.519 That's and that's just California. 92 00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:26.120 You can imagine what's happening in America. 93 00:04:26.199 --> 00:04:29.040 Well, you can move a little a little bit east. 94 00:04:29.160 --> 00:04:30.040 You look at Colorado. 95 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:32.600 You had ballot propositions funding police to the two to 96 00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:35.279 three hundred and fifty million dollars in the state. You 97 00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:38.600 had a truth and sentencing regime done through ballot initiative. 98 00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:42.839 You had a bail reform amendment to the state constitution, 99 00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:45.720 getting rid of the right to bail the murder cases. 100 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:49.319 You go to Arizona, you had a ballot proposition in 101 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:52.680 Arizona that will now make citizens eligible for a tax 102 00:04:52.759 --> 00:04:56.680 refund if the government fails to clean up homeless encampments, 103 00:04:56.879 --> 00:05:01.839 and forced laws against public intoxication, defecation, urination. I mean, 104 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:04.959 it really was in many ways a law and order election. 105 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:08.000 I noticed there's an a mission of fornication in that's 106 00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:09.240 a tax reform for. 107 00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:11.279 Okay, that's right, that's right. 108 00:05:11.879 --> 00:05:14.759 Roger Poalan has joined us. Where's John Hugh? He was 109 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:15.600 just here a minute ago. 110 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:18.560 I want to think he's getting more kimchi. 111 00:05:20.839 --> 00:05:23.079 He brought me over for this boondog. 112 00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:28.360 We are taking a live podcast. Roger really, yes, it's, uh, 113 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:31.319 what's the issue? Whatever we want to be although one 114 00:05:31.319 --> 00:05:34.319 of the issues is most weeks we do this every week. 115 00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:37.480 Most weeks it's me and a third host who's not 116 00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:40.040 with us because she's busy beating up on John for 117 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:41.680 his legal positivism. 118 00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:44.000 And I know you'll be on my side on that argument. 119 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:45.680 Oh, I'm a natural rights man. 120 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:51.519 Of course you are law two steven. 121 00:05:51.639 --> 00:05:54.079 But I'm not a natural law man. 122 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:56.519 Well, the natural rights man. 123 00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:58.600 There is a difference between the two. 124 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:01.000 Yeah, but you know what's a gun the law man. 125 00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:05.399 Yeah, but you know what, Roger, Yes, I understand that distinction. 126 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:07.639 There's also a. 127 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:11.800 You're one of the rare people who does understand that. 128 00:06:12.279 --> 00:06:15.399 Yeah, are you you fall out of this? 129 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:17.519 It's not a dumb debate, but it's. 130 00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:20.920 You know, it's this is above my pay grade. You know, 131 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:23.759 this is I'm a simple constitutional lawyer. This kind of 132 00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:28.480 metaphysics and philosophy is I can only talk about simple 133 00:06:28.519 --> 00:06:29.879 things like the dormant commerce clause. 134 00:06:32.199 --> 00:06:35.199 All right, So, Eric Chaffey, Uh, you do a lot 135 00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:37.240 of appellet law, which means you're not going to distract 136 00:06:37.240 --> 00:06:39.000 yourself with natural law unless you want to. 137 00:06:39.160 --> 00:06:40.399 But I'm very positivest. 138 00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:42.160 You are you're dang well. 139 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:44.680 But I'm positivest in the sense that I recognize that 140 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:47.360 the Framers were naturalists, and so. 141 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:48.800 I think that was incorporated. 142 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:53.439 Okay, oh, you're you may be redeemable. We better get 143 00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:58.040 have the arcist here fast. One is completely underwater. Okay, 144 00:06:58.199 --> 00:06:59.519 well they should do decently. 145 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:02.959 Yeah, underneath it all and just a hobsy And I'm 146 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:04.040 a simple poe. 147 00:07:04.759 --> 00:07:14.199 Okay, well, but Steve, you've got you always have been nasty, brutish, and. 148 00:07:13.079 --> 00:07:17.920 You've got to have a touchstone grounded in reason. Otherwise 149 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:24.480 you're a drift with a pure theory of will, and 150 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:28.639 violence can take you anywhere. And so what you need 151 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:32.439 is some grounding. And that's exactly what the Declaration gives 152 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:38.160 us when it sets forth in that justly famous second paragraph, 153 00:07:38.839 --> 00:07:41.399 that we hold these truths to. 154 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:43.759 Be self evident. No self evident. 155 00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:50.079 Truths are truths grounded in reason, correct, which is available 156 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:55.920 to all mankind and every place and every time. It 157 00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:58.920 stands for the idea that there's a higher law of 158 00:07:59.079 --> 00:08:03.120 right and wrong from which to derive the positive law 159 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:07.240 and against which to criticize that law at any point 160 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:08.480 in time. 161 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:13.399 And without that touch or else, well. 162 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:17.240 Without that touchstone, as I said a moment ago, we 163 00:08:17.399 --> 00:08:21.360 are adrift to the will, and all we are left 164 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:26.680 with is a kind of democracy whereby the will of 165 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:32.840 the majority, if you're lucky, carries the day. But as 166 00:08:32.919 --> 00:08:37.279 we've seen, that resolves into the will of those who 167 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:41.519 are best able to work the system, and those are 168 00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:42.559 the special. 169 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:47.279 Election was probably hold that thought. 170 00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:50.279 I do want to provoke Roger and say, just as 171 00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:52.679 Thomas Aquinas put it in question ninety four of his 172 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:55.679 Treatise on Law, I'm just the bessing on that said. 173 00:08:55.679 --> 00:08:57.639 We're in a heated agreement on that last I know. 174 00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:01.519 But he also had a theory of the good gentlemen. 175 00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:03.720 This is all very enlightening with the capital E. 176 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:07.039 But if we can get back to your original question 177 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:08.960 about the election, I want to I want to propose that. 178 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:13.960 What this was all about the election, that was the 179 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:18.120 opening for it. Now as far from you can get, well. 180 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:19.080 No, but it's it's not. 181 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:22.320 It might be more Augustinian or something, but but look, 182 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:23.000 here's the point. 183 00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:23.600 Here's the point. 184 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:26.639 Could this be I'm about to posit kind of a 185 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:30.039 cheeky take on the election. Could it be that the 186 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:34.240 American populace or at least a majority of the voters 187 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:37.480 in seeking a return to normalcy that they tried to 188 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:41.240 get in twenty twenty until Biden started governing as FDR's 189 00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:46.440 woke grandson. Have now have now turned to Donald Trump 190 00:09:46.519 --> 00:09:47.200 for normalcy? 191 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:48.159 Yeah? 192 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:51.879 Are you suggesting that there's a certain absurdity. 193 00:09:51.240 --> 00:09:56.279 To this, a certain at least amusement. 194 00:09:56.200 --> 00:09:57.440 Or paradox or no. 195 00:09:57.519 --> 00:09:59.600 I was writing eight or nine months ago that if 196 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:02.919 you believe and political science median voter theory, who's closest 197 00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:03.559 to the median voter? 198 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:05.399 Oh my god, it's Donald Trump? 199 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:05.720 I know. 200 00:10:06.039 --> 00:10:08.039 And and that, by the I think, well, the. 201 00:10:07.960 --> 00:10:14.200 Media queen's voter, certainly at Manhattan is too. 202 00:10:14.200 --> 00:10:16.440 We focus on New York and we analyze each borough 203 00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:19.559 for itself as representing different parts of the American character. 204 00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:20.440 Who are actually mattan. 205 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:26.000 Now that Trump is going to be the president, it 206 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:30.000 is important evermore to be an opposition. And we see 207 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:33.679 this with the Attorney general nomination. We see it with 208 00:10:34.240 --> 00:10:40.080 Telsea Gabbard as the is that Herny the intelligence? I 209 00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:45.000 mean this, this is this is the one thing I'll 210 00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:50.600 say about the death's nomination is that it did prompt 211 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:54.679 him to resign from the House, and so there's the positive. 212 00:10:56.519 --> 00:10:59.960 Does anybody have a theory about whether the fact that 213 00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:05.120 he was elected means that therefore he cannot resign from 214 00:11:05.320 --> 00:11:08.600 or he will have to come back into the again. 215 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:10.799 He's already said he's not going to serve in the 216 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:11.320 next term. 217 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:12.519 Well that's good. 218 00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:15.279 So that's the good that's come from that. Of course, 219 00:11:15.399 --> 00:11:17.120 I doubt he'll get out of committee. 220 00:11:17.159 --> 00:11:19.360 Now, Roger, Well, now, Roger, I just have to say, 221 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:22.360 because you're an old pal, you're showing your Cato Institute 222 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:25.000 underwear with your going into opposition status. 223 00:11:26.279 --> 00:11:29.000 I didn't know, Well, Cato goes into opposition. 224 00:11:29.000 --> 00:11:31.159 Whoever wins any life, I know, I know that's right. 225 00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:36.279 I confess I'm somewhat with Roger, which is all government bad. 226 00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:39.360 I don't care if we're finding it right, and so yes, 227 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:42.000 I'm you know, I used to joke. 228 00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:43.960 That government is not a client. They'll pray. 229 00:11:44.840 --> 00:11:48.240 Well, the Founders are right. It's a necessary evil. So 230 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:53.360 necessary because in the state of nature there will be 231 00:11:53.399 --> 00:11:57.360 differences and if we can't agree over them, then either 232 00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:01.240 there will be injustice that is elected, or there will 233 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:01.759 be force. 234 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:04.960 But which founders? Has it turned out that the anti 235 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:06.120 federalists were actually right. 236 00:12:06.759 --> 00:12:12.720 Oh, no, federalists went not right because they gave us 237 00:12:12.759 --> 00:12:15.759 a government it was too lean to address the three 238 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:19.320 major problems that we faced. We were surrounded on three 239 00:12:19.399 --> 00:12:21.919 sides by powers greater than our own. 240 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:23.000 We had a. 241 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:27.000 Debt from the Revolutionary War that we didn't know how 242 00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:31.320 to pay, and states were electing terrorists and other measures 243 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:33.919 they were leading to the breakdown of the free flow 244 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:37.919 of commerce among the states. So to overcome those we 245 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:42.879 needed a stronger, separate federal government, but one that was restrained. 246 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:46.080 Well, yes, at the time, this is this, this is 247 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:47.600 the argument at the time. 248 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:50.279 But but but. 249 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:52.639 Is it the but but in the end, is it 250 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:55.679 now that they've you know, won their uh, you know, 251 00:12:56.279 --> 00:12:58.399 ultimate victory, even if they were wrong at the time, 252 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:01.639 or is it that kind of circle back to complete 253 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:04.159 the circle and go all Claire monster that it's all 254 00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:05.159 Woodrow Wilson's fault. 255 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:08.600 No, they founders got it right, as corrected by the 256 00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:12.279 Civil War amendments. But of course we've never lived up 257 00:13:12.360 --> 00:13:16.200 to the principles that we've articulated, which is not surprising. 258 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:18.720 And there have been better or worse times, whether of 259 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:24.279 course the Great Watershed, the progressive era when they fundamentally rejected, 260 00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:27.840 of course, the Framer's vision as corrected by the Civil 261 00:13:27.879 --> 00:13:28.639 War amendments. 262 00:13:28.639 --> 00:13:30.759 So John You has entered the chat. He's trying not 263 00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:36.000 to step. Oh, he's got his food flake. I'm winning 264 00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:36.440 at John. 265 00:13:36.440 --> 00:13:38.960 Don't don't go away here and finish. 266 00:13:37.720 --> 00:13:40.919 You know, Jonathan and I went to I'll fill a 267 00:13:40.919 --> 00:13:43.639 buster while he finishes his chew of his slider here. 268 00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:45.639 But we went to law school together. 269 00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:48.720 But you know, yesterday you were mentioned in several kind 270 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:51.679 of side conversation as a contender for for SG. I 271 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:53.679 don't know, are you are you? Are you going to 272 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:55.360 go into uh government? 273 00:13:55.399 --> 00:13:57.000 You think they gave it to someone else. 274 00:13:57.120 --> 00:13:58.360 Well, I recognized that. 275 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:02.639 I recognize that the SG was announced today. 276 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:05.279 Last night last night, probably. 277 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:08.000 To be reopened. 278 00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:11.679 Step on up, haadly we are we are in media address, 279 00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:12.919 as they say a Latin. 280 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:13.639 We're rolling. 281 00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:16.919 And the problem is is I was hoping to round 282 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:19.320 up enough natural lawyers to out number John You, and 283 00:14:19.480 --> 00:14:21.000 right now it's like fifty to fifty. 284 00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:22.799 Roger's pretty sound. 285 00:14:23.240 --> 00:14:25.879 Oh yeah, Eric, we're not sure about yet, But I 286 00:14:25.960 --> 00:14:26.399 want to talk. 287 00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:30.639 About it to himself A positive I did, But I'm 288 00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:34.639 a positivist who incorporates the sad delusions of the Framers. 289 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:37.720 So I'm okay, well, you know now John's run away Roger, 290 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:40.120 but I taunt him a lot, saying I still believe 291 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:43.559 the two of the greatest books for modern constitutional thinking 292 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:47.840 are Corwin's Higher Law Background absolutely and what's his name? 293 00:14:47.879 --> 00:14:52.759 The Constitutional Nation of Modern I'm blanking on the author's name, 294 00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:54.559 Charles Howard McElwain. 295 00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:57.720 I thought you said you were a fan of that 296 00:14:57.759 --> 00:14:59.039 book once. I remember you. 297 00:14:59.080 --> 00:15:01.360 Saying that twenty years I am a fan of the 298 00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:07.840 Corwin John. But you know Corwin, uh think out during 299 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:09.120 the Roosevelt Revolution. 300 00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:13.919 Did you know that to Steve Yes, Yes, yeah he did. 301 00:15:14.080 --> 00:15:15.919 I don't understand why. 302 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:18.720 I don't either. But but his other defects his. 303 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:22.279 Book was was actually it was two essays in the 304 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:25.879 Harvard Law Review that constituted that book. 305 00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:29.759 I still assign them to students again over John Hughes's objections. 306 00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:32.200 But why would you Eric Jaffy, that was trying to 307 00:15:32.200 --> 00:15:34.360 get away. I don't blame him. Why would John object 308 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:36.039 to that because he's a positivist. 309 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:39.759 What about you signed Harry's books. He's seeing the price 310 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:41.519 of the house of album. 311 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:44.279 Not the law students. But I want to change gears. 312 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:45.639 We can come back to all this. I want to 313 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:47.759 change gears a little bit while Derek's still with us. 314 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:50.240 Uh. Terrific panel today. 315 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:52.279 You weren't on it, but I think maybe you were 316 00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:55.159 there in the audience on administrative law, and usually that's 317 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:55.840 a snoozer. 318 00:15:56.000 --> 00:15:56.919 Did you go to that panel? 319 00:15:57.080 --> 00:15:59.919 I went to the Q and A because you know, 320 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:03.039 I was busy with the SCC panel, because right, I 321 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:06.519 hadn't hear of the NAP, right, right, yeah, I know. 322 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:12.240 I went to the the International Court of Criminals. 323 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:17.039 That was I went to this hideous oh Richard. Richard 324 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:18.960 was a classic for. 325 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:22.960 The entire. 326 00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:26.639 And there's a certain history. 327 00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:32.600 No confusion, no, no, not really nice try but this 328 00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:35.519 guy said, of course, of course that should be arrested 329 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:37.919 to of course violation. 330 00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:40.360 The panel was in general agreement with this guy. 331 00:16:40.519 --> 00:16:42.720 This guy, I. 332 00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:45.600 Would say, the arrest of panel, except for Epstein, was 333 00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:48.440 whether they were whatever the Republican or Democrats they were 334 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:51.679 part of, like the Foreign policy established. And it was 335 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:53.360 fitting to me because the last time I was in 336 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:56.440 this hotel was thirty five years ago in high school 337 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:59.320 for Model U N where we were brainwashed into the 338 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:01.639 international and now I'm back. 339 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:05.400 Audience. 340 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:11.799 If your audience, UH can go when this is available 341 00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:17.519 online to that session and listen to Epstein. They will 342 00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:20.839 be rewarded beyond belief. 343 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:24.000 Was just remarkable. 344 00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:25.359 Tour four. 345 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:30.279 Never never has Oh no, he I've heard him say 346 00:17:30.279 --> 00:17:32.319 that he can't even give the same lecture once. 347 00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:34.519 Of course, Well you can never step into the same 348 00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:36.079 river twice. 349 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:39.200 Yes you can if you move with the current. 350 00:17:39.880 --> 00:17:43.440 Or if it's the Aga river on you were a metaphysician, 351 00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:44.519 not a physicist. 352 00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:47.519 Remember, Richard inst for me is going the bomb cars. 353 00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:48.319 I didn't talk. 354 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:51.599 So he sits on the table with his legs dangling 355 00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:55.200 and he gives what economics said, This is the most 356 00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:58.400 coherent account he's ever heard of the logic of insurance. 357 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:02.720 Well, you know he's taught every class in the University 358 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:06.359 of Chicago, syllabus, every duct trintal class, and so we're 359 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:08.039 not talking like poetry in the law. But you know, 360 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:13.079 from antidiscrimination law to securities to whatever he's taught. I 361 00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:16.440 took them for Roman law. The court description was great. 362 00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:21.319 It said knowledge of Latin not required, but helpful. But 363 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:22.960 you know I missed all of these Panels. I was 364 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:26.200 at the campus free speech chaos because you know, I 365 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:28.839 had to sell my book so Lowless now available for 366 00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:32.240 pre order about the illiberal takeover of legal education? 367 00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:34.319 Is that coming out January fourteenth? 368 00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:37.039 Now available for pre order wherever you fine and not 369 00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:38.720 so fine books are sold online. 370 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:40.519 Well, we'll do a podcast about it when it comes. 371 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:41.160 Back, Steven. 372 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:42.240 How long does this go on? 373 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:43.559 Because I want to get some. 374 00:18:43.480 --> 00:18:46.240 Food, Yeah, and I need another drink. 375 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:52.640 Is this for the record, Yeah, we could raise the money, 376 00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:53.920 but it would be wrong for sure. 377 00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:59.319 You think if you want how the arcis is here listeners. 378 00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:01.200 By the way, I hadn't already figured that out, So 379 00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:05.119 can we have the excuse me? Your excuse me? And 380 00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:06.759 Juliana had a great article. 381 00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:11.440 Oh yes, smacking down her latest book on Jews and 382 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:12.920 the liberalism. 383 00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:17.079 Yeah, I will shea it is this something new? 384 00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:17.440 Oh? 385 00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:18.920 This in the last year. 386 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:21.000 I mean she she writes more books than I can read. 387 00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:23.599 Believe this or eighth book. 388 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:28.680 Yes, that's great, Steve. 389 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:31.160 We'll be all right. 390 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:33.759 I tuned in another cocktail, so we'll be in touch 391 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:36.359 when I'm back after renew my passport to come busy 392 00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:37.079 in California. 393 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:39.119 Another steak you know. 394 00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:41.799 Yes, well, we have a consolate near us. We can 395 00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:44.200 help that out with excellent, excellent American consolate. 396 00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:48.119 It. 397 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:49.640 We can do something. 398 00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:52.759 We're doing it now, we're. 399 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:52.880 Rolling, we're recording. 400 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:54.319 Okay, now let's get on the record. 401 00:19:54.440 --> 00:19:55.640